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I'll reserve the room if it's not too late. (It's Friday morning.)

X
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&gt; Oodles of experience with the Republican Lady from Florence
&gt; County AND Walmart!

Ugh, please.  Kmart.  I worked for Kmart.  Like I'd ever work for Wal-Mart -
honestly.

Seriously, though - is any of this relevant?  I don't like war, and I
subscribed to this list to see if there were rational alternatives to throw
my weight behind.  If you find it is easier to attack me than my attempts at
rational discussion, so be it.  Or if the point of this list is simply to
agitate against war regardless of the morality or rationality of such
activity, then I will shut up.  Just let me know.

==========================================
X - University of Wisconsin
-&gt; Political Science - Criminal Justice
--&gt; email X
---&gt; visit X
----&gt; PGP OK! - PGP ID: 71CEEC76
------------------------------------------
"You can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."
- Abraham Lincoln


_______________________________________________
discuss@madpeace.org mailing list
http://lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com/mailman/listinfo/madpeace-discuss


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              <text>Reuters, Nov.1, 2001 

Afghans to hold talks with peace envoy 

By Jack Redden

A delegation of RAWA met Mr. Brahmi and his team in Islamabad. RAWA photo

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - U.N. Afghan envoy Lakhdar Brahimi will hold talks today with Afghans arriving from inside the battered country to discuss replacing the Taliban leaders. 

"He will be meeting with Afghans from inside Afghanistan," said U.N. spokesman Eric Falt on Thursday. "We cannot disclose who for obvious reasons." 

Falt said Brahimi also would meet representatives of RAWA, the Revolutionary Afghan Women's Association, a group of Afghan women who have opposed human rights abuses by all military groups in the battered country. 

RAWA has gained fame for sending women on daring missions into the country, photographing Taliban abuses to publicise them to the rest of the world. Pictures of public executions have come almost exclusively from RAWA, which defies the official ban on photography. 

Brahimi had met women working for other non-governmental humanitarian organisations on Wednesday who complained they face abuse under the Taliban. 

.... 





From: http://www.reuters.co.uk 
And http://abcnews.go.com 


------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Home] [RAWA in Media] 
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"WFA is greatly troubled by the fact that innocent civilians were killed
here in America on 9-11 and are now being killed in Afghanistan.  We work to
make obsolete such crude, reactionary violence.  Since long before 9-11 we
have advocated -- and made some important progress towards -- a global
intelligence, law enforcement, and court system that would interdict such
global criminals before they act, and then arrest and try in a court-of-law
those who do manage to carry out such crimes.  Lacking such a structural
solution, however, the hastily-formed coalition that has been cobbled
together since 9-11 will at best achieve vigilantism (not justice) as it
tries to get Bin Ladin dead or alive, killing many more innocents in the
process.  Is such vigilantism better than nothing?  Perhaps.  Regardless,
WFA will continue the fight for real global security and justice.  Terrorism
is a complex persistent problem, and we need more than an ad-hoc coalition
to fight it.  If President Bush and other American citizens sincerely want
long-term global security, then we call upon them to join our cause."



_______________________________________________
discuss@madpeace.org mailing list
http://lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com/mailman/listinfo/madpeace-discuss


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              <text> UNFORTUNATELY, YOUR FALLACIOUS ASSUMPTION IS THAT IF WE DO INDEED REFRAIN FROM RETALIATING THAT THE SUB-HUMANS THAT DID THIS WILL STOP ATTACKING US.
 IT'S A NICE THOUGHT. IT'S FAR FROM REALISTIC. YOUR MISTAKE IS ASSUMING THAT THEY OPERATE WITHIN THE SAME LOGICAL BOUNDARIES AS DO WE. IT'S A NICE THOUGHT. IT IS COMPLETELY ERRONEOUS. THE LOWER LIFE FORMS THAT ATTACKED US HAVE SAID IN DOCUMENTED INTERVIEWS THAT THEIR GOAL IS TO BRING ABOUT THE DEMISE OF THE UNITED STATES AS WE KNOW IT. YOU NICE PEOPLE THAT SEND THESE
WELL MEANING ALBEIT NAIVE E-MAILS AROUND FORGET THAT WHEN THEY DO SUCCEED IN DESTROYING OUR WAY OF LIVING, (WHICH THEY WILL ATTEMPT TO DO UNTIL THEY ARE EITHER KILLED BY US OR KILL THEMSELVES IN SOME OTHER DEVASTATING MANNER ON OUR SOIL) THAT THEY WILL COME IN AND THROW YOU A BIG ROLLER SKATING PARTY
AND SHOWER YOU WITH ADULATION IN RETURN FOR YOUR SUPPORT. RIGHT. THEY WILL KILL THE MEN AND THEY WILL STONE THE WOMEN UNTIL THEY BOW DOWN TO WHATEVER THEIR NEANDERTHALIC DESIRES MAY BE. (PROBABLY NOT AN ARGUMENT ABOUT WHOSE TURN IT IS TO DO THE DISHES.) I REALIZE THAT THIS COUNTRY OPERATES ON A CHECK AND BALANCE SYSTEM AND THAT YOU PEOPLE HAVE TAKEN UPON YOURSELVES TO DO THE CHECKING. THIS IS NOT THE TIME, HOWEVER, FOR IN-FIGHTING (WHICH IS ONE OF THE REASONS THIS HAPPENED) AS OUR COUNTRY NEEDS TO PULL TOGETHER. PLEASE KNOW THE IMPLICATIONS OF YOUR REQUESTS FOR "PEACE" BEFORE YOU START YOUR PARADE AND IN THE MEANTIME, ENJOY THE FREEDOM THAT YOU ARE FIGHTING SO
HARD TO GIVE UP. I WONDER IF OSAMA WILL LET YOU HAVE A PARADE WHEN HE OWNS THE WORLD? HMMM...

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: x
 To: x
 Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 3:06 PM
 Subject: Petition for Peaceful U.S. Response

 Subject: Fwd: Petition for peaceful US response

 Please sign the Petition at http://home.uchicago.edu/~dhpicker/petition
 which appeals to world leaders to be level-headed and, wherever
 possible, peaceful in their response to the recent attack against the
 United States.

PLEASE FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE, AS QUICKLY AS
 POSSIBLE. The signatures logged by the website above will be forwarded
 to leaders around the world. It is imperative that we act quickly to
 prevent war!!!

 Thank you.
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SHould this perhaps go to the outreach/education committee?  Might I
suggest something broader than just one lecturer?  A panel, perhaps, which
focuses in on the various "trouble spots" in the region, or maybe a panel
discussion which focuses soley on the the relationship of the
Israeli/Palestinian/US conflict and its relationship to the broader
conflict now underway.  Again, one speaker does not a "teach-in" make.

-x
 On
Mon, 22 Oct 2001, x wrote:

&gt; Dear Action and Coordination committees,
&gt;
&gt; The Palestine Right to Return Coalition would like to offer the MAPC
members
&gt; a teach-in on the Palestine/Israel conflict. X, a graduate
&gt; student writing his thesis on the conflict and the founder of Alternative
&gt; Palestinian Agenda, does a 45 minute teach-in that covers the
geographical,
&gt; political, legal, and historical aspect of the conflict.  We believe that
&gt; there will be an interest among MAPC members and that it would benefit
them
&gt; to have a basic understanding of the issue, if they don't already.
&gt;
&gt; Please let me know how this might be set up. I suggest it gets brought up
at
&gt; the next general meeting to see how much interest there is, and then we
can
&gt; set a time somehow.
&gt;
&gt; Peace, X
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On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:00:11 -0600  "X" wrote:

&gt; 1) Need to book room for next cc meeting.

i'll take care of this.  for future reference, here's how it works:

just send email to X with the following info:

------- Forwarded Message

To: X
Subject: Room request for Memorial Union

Hello,
I'm writing to request a room in the Memorial Union.
Here are the details:

DATE:
TIME:
ATTENDANCE: 12
NAME OF GROUP: Stop the War Student Group
TITU LISTING: MAPC CC Meeting
SPECIAL NEEDS: Wheelchair accessible room, water pitchers and cups.
ROOM SETUP: "Conference" style discussion with table and chairs

If you have any questions, you can reach me via email, or call
262-7892.  Thanks a lot!

------- End of Forwarded Message

if you ever need to do this yourself, just fill in the right date and
time, and send this message.  someone will email you back w/
confirmation stuff (which you don't need, but then you at least know
everything went through ok).

enjoy,
-X

p.s.  just to be clear, i'll take care of it for this week.
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              <text>-----Original Message-----
From: madpeace-cc-admin@lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com [mailto:madpeace-cc-admin@lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com]On Behalf Of X
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 1:16 PM
To: coordination@madpeace.org
Cc: X
Subject: [MAPC-coord] Agenda for November 11 CC Meeting

COORDINATING COMMITTEE AGENDA

November 11, 2001

 

 

 

 

1. Introductions &amp; Check-In

2. Additions/Amendments to Agenda

3. Approval of Minutes

4. Mission &amp; Structure of CC

5. Working Group &amp; Caucus Reports/Discussion

6. Action on Proposals from Working Groups/Caucus

7. Planning for General Membership Meeting

a. Location/Facilities

b. Agenda (includes Video Proposal)

c. Facilitators

d. Updated "Welcome" flyer; other preparations

8. Proposal: Donation to Wil-Mar for last general membership meeting

9. Proposal: MAPC/SWAIG Newsletter

10. Proposal: Peace Draft

11. Emergency &amp; proactive actions

12. Adding at-large CC members

13. Planning for Next CC Meeting 

a. Time &amp; Place

b. Facilitator

c. Agenda

My recommendation is that we proceed through the agenda in the order listed (subject of course to change by the body) until 5:50 p.m., at which time we should jump to Item 13 and table any remaining items until next week.
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              <text>
By using the phrase "sets the politics" we are telegraphing an identity to
the community that is probably less than optimum for a broad based
coalition.  This is kind of a late in the game suggestion, but I don't think
we lose anything by discarding the somewhat lefty-cliched "sets the
politics."  I appreciate that it was the soicalist community that launched
this coalition in the days following 9/11, but let's not lose sight yet of
our desire for a broad appeal.
/s/
X (who is fasting today and obviously grumpy about it already)

-----Original Message-----
From: X
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 1:16 AM
To: coordination@madpeace.org
Subject: Re: [MAPC-coord] First paragraph of CC mission statement


Bravo!

GK

----- Original Message -----
From: "X" &lt;X&gt;
To: &lt;coordination@madpeace.org&gt;
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 1:07 AM
Subject: [MAPC-coord] First paragraph of CC mission statement


&gt; As X stated, the first paragraph was the toughest to write. I think the
&gt; following text flows the best, using X's edits and mine. Any feedback?
&gt;
&gt; The main decision-making body of MAPC is the General Meeting. The General
&gt; Meeting sets the politics and the overall direction of MAPC. The
&gt; Coordinating Committee ensures that the decisions of the General Meeting
are
&gt; implemented. The CC takes its direction from the General Meeting, and is
&gt; accountable to the membership. All decisions made by the CC are subject to
&gt; discussion and review by the General Meeting.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; _______________________________________________
&gt; coordination@madpeace.org
&gt; http://lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com/mailman/listinfo/madpeace-cc
&gt;


_______________________________________________
coordination@madpeace.org
http://lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com/mailman/listinfo/madpeace-cc


_______________________________________________
coordination@madpeace.org
http://lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com/mailman/listinfo/madpeace-cc


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Sounds like someone needs to reserve a room for the cc meeting, and I think
it may need to be a student.  X or X, can you do this?

x


&gt;From: "X" &lt;X&gt;
&gt;Reply-To: "X" &lt;X&gt;
&gt;To: "X" &lt;X&gt;
&gt;Subject: Re: [MAPC-coord] Next meeting
&gt;Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:57:07 -0500
&gt;
&gt;I don't think anyone volunteered to do this.  X had done it in the
&gt;past,
&gt;but he wasn't at the last meeting.
&gt;
&gt;I knew how to do it ten years ago, but procedures have likely changed since
&gt;then.
&gt;
&gt;X
&gt;
&gt;----- Original Message -----
&gt;From: "X" &lt;X&gt;
&gt;To: &lt;X&gt;
&gt;Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:25 PM
&gt;Subject: Re: [MAPC-coord] Next meeting
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; X, was someone reserving a room? I don't recall... I also don't
&gt;know
&gt; &gt; how to do this if needed.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; X
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;From: "X" &lt;X&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Reply-To: "X" &lt;X&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;To: &lt;X&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Subject: Re: [MAPC-coord] Next meeting
&gt; &gt; &gt;Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:04:56 -0500
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Next CC meeting is Sunday 4:00 p.m., TITU.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Minutes are posted at http://madpeace.org/Wiki/MeetingOct21
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;X
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;----- Original Message -----
&gt; &gt; &gt;From: "X" &lt;X&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;To: &lt;X&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 9:09 AM
&gt; &gt; &gt;Subject: [MAPC-coord] Next meeting
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hello all,
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Can someone please inform me of when the next meeting is?  Also, if
&gt; &gt; &gt;someone
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; could give me an update about the last meeting that would be great.
&gt; &gt; &gt;Thanks.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; X
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              <text> What to do about Osama bin Laden? The problem is, what do you do with him
 once he's found?
 Kill him -- he becomes a martyr ...
 Don't kill him -- he's a hero to the extremists ...

 Solution:
 Capture him alive, convict him of his crimes, and sentence him to his
 punishment.
 What punishment, you ask?
 A full blown sex change of course!
 And then send him back to his home of Afghanistan to live out the rest of
 his life as a woman under the Taliban government....



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              <text>Thu, 04 Oct 2001 19:58:47 -0400</text>
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              <text>What's the right punishment?</text>
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                  <text>The Madison Area Peace Coalition (MAPC) formed fourteen days after the September 11 attacks to oppose (among other goals) the use of U.S. military, economic, or political force – whether direct or proxy, overt or covert -- "that violates the sovereignty or human rights of any nation or people." The Archive has assembled here e-mails exchanges from MAPC dating from the group's founding until late November 2001.</text>
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              <text>I think a discussion of MAPC's outreach/inclusivity is overdue, but I would like to suggest that we leave the logo out of it for right now, to vastly reduce potential divisiveness of the issue. Table the logo for a week, talk about these important issues of inclusiveness, and then revive the logo discussion without it being a litmus test of any kind.

I'm sure we've all seen it happen before. People who fundamentally mean well and generally agree with each other can get sidetracked into bitter wars over what meanings should be attributed to a symbol or symbolic action. Arguments over differing interpretations degenerate into labeling each others' interpretations in very negative ways.
Right now, rather than fighting over the history vs. the perception of the peace sign, we should be focused on taking concrete steps to ensure (1) that everyone who opposes the war feels comfortable working with MAPC and (2) that MAPC's efforts to educate and inform are both respectful and audible to every community in Madison.
If the use or non-use of the peace sign has a part to play, it should emerge out of this larger discussion, not be the instrument to open a can of worms.
What we really need to examine is: what efforts have been made to build coalitions with various communities in Madison? I know efforts have just started to outreach to labor--excellent &amp; long overdue as well. Have we tried to invite other communities to get involved, or explored ways of networking? When I emailed my contacts in the Muslim Students' Assoc &amp; the Islamic Ctr about the rally this Saturday, they were unaware of any other MAPC effort to involve or even connect with their organizations. So--what has been done so far? What can be done?

Secondly but no less importantly, we need to collect feedback from non-dominant-culture perspectives, whether coalition members or our contacts in various communities, regarding:
1) perception of MAPC / anti-war movement in general--relevant? Inclusive?
2) things MAPC can do to be *perceived* as more welcoming to anti-war people in various communities
3) things MAPC can do to actually *be* more representative of a variety of views and voices
4) particular ways MAPC can network with community leaders
5) best strategies for each community for outreach on anti-war issues.
It seems especially important that MAPC be a haven and firm support for anyone who feels isolated and vulnerable at the moment--whether it be the direct targets of racist scapegoating, or international students from any part of the globe who feel isolated by their anti-imperialist perspectives and/or afraid of the new anti-immigrant laws.

So my final recommendation is that our next action should really target issues of racial profiling, Ashcroft's stripping away of immigrants' rights, and the hundreds of people currently in custody over a month without due process. (I was planning to suggest this anyway--it didn't just come up because of tonight's meeting).

Guess that's more than two cents!
In solidarity,
X

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              <text>Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:44 AM</text>
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              <text>discuss@madpeace.org</text>
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              <text>[MAPC-discuss] higher priorities than logo</text>
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FYI:
As follow up to a call I made to Greenpeace to encourage turnout at
11/17 Rally, Jim Young called (running for governor) to ask if he could
speak for 5 mins. at the Rally.  Would focus on military-industrial
complex.  Told him I would bring up at coordinating meeting &amp; get back
to him Mon.
X (I'm the new "outie" from Outreach &amp; Education)
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I will add it to the agenda.
&gt;--- Original Message ---
&gt;From: "X" &lt;X&gt;
&gt;To: &lt;X&gt;, &lt;X&gt;
&gt;Date: 10/29/01 10:04:47 AM
&gt;
Hi,
&gt;
&gt;I totally forgot that the policy committee wants something on
the
&gt;"proposals" agenda:  we have a proposal that the city alders
vote for a
&gt;resolution that condems bombing (in different language than
that) in
&gt;Afganistan.  The resolution will be posted on "discuss" for
all to read &amp;
&gt;give feedback, to make changes before Tuesday.  X
has been
&gt;heading it up.  Could we put it on the agenda for Tuesday? 
Thanks.
&gt;
&gt;X
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              <text>RE: [MAPC-coord] city policy resolution</text>
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              <text>FW: [LIFILM] Pete Hamill on Afghanistan</text>
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&gt;The news this morning said that the us is sending ground troups into
Afghanistan. Bush has since denied that claim and did &gt;not support it or
deny it, but called it a 'rumor'. Does this constitute an emergency action?
alice

Again, this is not news - it has been going on for a week or so - it is
just that the US has officially recognized it. The troops deployed are on
an intelligence gathering mission. (I mentioned this at the general body
meeting) They are not involved in the military conflict as of yet. And they
are very few in number. Here is a piece from CNN. Also check other websites
for more information.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/19/ret.retaliation.facts/index.html

thanks,
x
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              <text>[MAPC-coord] Re: [MAPC-action] (no subject)</text>
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AP and CNN have reported that
the Taliban abandoned Kabul
at dawn Tuesday.  But seizing
the capital city is hardly the
same as taking over Afghanistan.
The Taliban's capital is Kandahar
and their other southern mountain
strongholds.


_______________________________________________
discuss@madpeace.org mailing list
http://lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com/mailman/listinfo/madpeace-discuss

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              <text>[MAPC-discuss] Kabul falls</text>
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I remember it well.  The time was Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 10:32:15AM -0600, and
X muttered:

&gt; Ideally, I guess I'd like to see the "stronger" resolution introduced as a
&gt; communication and have the "weaker" one be introduced by one or
(hopefully)
&gt; more progressive alders.  If that's not going to happen - and it sounds
&gt; unlikely from what you've sent - I think we need to pressure the alders
&gt; we've been talking to to introduce the "weaker" one before T'ksgiving.  I
&gt; have to say I'm really disappointed that they're hesitant to do anything
&gt; before T'ksgiving.  After all, the reality we're addressing is an
impending
&gt; massive humanitarian crisis.  Jeeeeeeezus.  THEY need a breather????

What about a face-to-face meeting with some alders?  I really think we could
sway some people by assuaging their fears about our motives and tactics.  I
for one am empathetic with their trepidation, but X is right that there
are other, more pressing considerations.

Barbara, you've been amazingly helpful as a liason--what do you think about
setting up an informal chat with them?  I'll spring for coffee for all at
the
bistro of their choice...

&gt; I don't know anything about resolutions introduced as a communication
w/out
&gt; any alder sponsors, but it seems to me that doing that with our "weaker",
&gt; more likely to pass resolution will flag it as unacceptable to the
council.
&gt; If I were a middle of the road alder and saw that none of the PD alders
had
&gt; signed on, I sure as heck wouldn't vote for it.  (But I think it'd be fine
&gt; to introduce the "stronger" one like that, if we do still decide to
&gt; introduce it.)
&gt;
&gt; So, I guess - with the current info we have - I feel ambivalent about the
&gt; "stronger" resolution.  If it will help the "weaker" one pass to introduce
&gt; it - by communication or by an alder - then I say we go for it.  But the
&gt; people we need to talk to for this analysis are the PD alders who are
&gt; balking at the "weaker" one.

The danger we face with this particular approach (strong first) is that we
seem to be scaring people away right off.  It's almost the right tactic, but
perhaps we're just misplacing our emphasis.

Perhaps we should really be leading with the weaker version, then in debate
pushing for more.  I think we agree on the need to concentrate on getting
the alders to understand the basic urgency of the humanitarian situation.
Once there, we may be able to convince more people that prioritization of
the
humanitarian situation leads one logically to the condemnation of the
current
war.

X

_______________________________________________
policy@madpeace.org
http://lists.OpenSoftwareServices.com/mailman/listinfo/madpeace-policy

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              <text>Wednesday, November 07, 2001 12:00 PM</text>
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            </elementText>
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              <text>NULL</text>
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                <text>Re: [MAPC-policy] resolution update</text>
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            <description>The process status of this item.</description>
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            <name>Posting</name>
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            <description>Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item.</description>
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                <text>yes</text>
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          <element elementId="56">
            <name>Source</name>
            <description>The source of this item.</description>
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                <text>born-digital</text>
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          </element>
          <element elementId="57">
            <name>Media Type</name>
            <description>The media type of this item.</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="12978">
                <text>email</text>
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          <element elementId="59">
            <name>Created by Author</name>
            <description>Whether the author created this item.</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="12979">
                <text>yes</text>
              </elementText>
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          <element elementId="60">
            <name>Described by Author</name>
            <description>Whether the description of this item was submitted by the author.</description>
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              </elementText>
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            <description>The date this item was entered into the archive.</description>
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