1 20 25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Wing Ma Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Amy S. Chinatown Interview: Date 2003-11-07 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation garment factory owner Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Mr. Ma, people might be watching or listening to this interview fifty years from now; we’d like them to know a little bit about who you are and where you came from. WING MA: Okay Q: So if you could please start out by saying where and when you were born, and tell me a little about your childhood and family, that would be great. WING: My name is Wing Ma, actually, I have a middle name Guo Kua and in Chinese, we usually have the last name come first---it’s Ma Wing Guo, which means, my last name, which means “horse,” --- “ma” is “horse,” “wing” is “forever,” “Guo” is country, that’s what it means. I was born in China in a very poor family. We were like---exactly my grandfathers, grandmothers, they are all like farmers in China at that time. After I was two years old, our whole family went to Hong Kong, and I actually grew up in Hong Kong, and when I was 18 years old, I came to this country for college. Ever since then, I stayed in this country---after I graduated, I stayed in this country and I got a job. To begin with, I was an engineer, and afterwards I had my own business, and I was the owner of a garment manufacturing company in Chinatown here, but four years ago I closed my business because of the economy and also the competition between the offshore and the domestic---you know, we cannot compete with them, so I closed the business, and now I’m working for another business now. Q: I’m going to take you back for a minute to start out. Do you remember anything about the trip from China to Hong Kong? WING: Oh, I was about two years old. I remember a little bit. At that time, it was very unusual for people to, with documents, that’s going from China to Hong Kong. I got the document---my family, they got the document from China to Hong Kong, but the Hong Kong they do not accept us at that time, the reason being that there were a lot of refugees that went from China to Hong Kong during the late 50s and early 60s, and that’s why they could not handle too many people who come to Hong Kong at the same time, so our family have to have refugee status to get into Hong Kong. That’s all I remember. Q: Did your mother or father ever tell you anything about how they made that decision to leave China? WING: Actually, it was my mother’s decision, more than my father’s. My father actually went to Hong Kong before us, and then he went to the Philippines after he arrived to Hong Kong, and he worked there as a cook. My father was a cook back in China, years ago. He was a very experienced cook, so somebody in Manila hired him from Hong Kong to work over there, at that time, in the early 60s. So my father went to Hong Kong first, then, after about two years, my mother and my two other sisters and me, four of us, we went to Hong Kong afterwards. Q: So what was your life like in Hong Kong? WING: Hong Kong is a great city. I grew up. I like Hong Kong, but the only thing is, right now, I like New York better. I like New York better than Hong Kong now. It’s a great place to visit, but not a great place to live, to me personally. I like New York better. Q: What kind of a place did you live in? WING: In Hong Kong? Oh, we lived in---in Hong Kong, they don’t have like, they do have houses, but not as many like this country. But because of the limited amount of lands over there, we lived in high rises buildings, apartments, that was where we lived. Q: Was it big, or small--- WING: Oh, small, it was about like, you have a 300-square foot apartment, you’re lucky, very, very, lucky. [tape interruption] Q: So, you were saying about that you were lucky to have an apartment in Hong Kong. WING: That’s, as I said last time, when we had a discussion, my mother, she is a very tough and strong lady. She is like the head of the household. She make all the decisions, and they are good, prove to be good. (laughter) Q: So was she working while you were living in Hong Kong? WING: She works, at that time she has to take care of my two sisters and me, so she could not go out and work, she just took some home work that she can do at home. Q: What kind of work did she do at home? WING: Needlework. Q: What kind of school did you go to? WING: I went to Hong Kong, in the Catholic school, from primary to secondary. It’s a British educational system; they don’t have like grade one, two, three like this country. There are six grades in the primary school, and five grades in the secondary school, and then two years in the post-secondary school, three year colleges. Actually, it’s the same thing, because they have three year college, but they have two years post secondary, which is 12th and the 13th grade, they’re called. So when I finished my secondary school, I took one more year post secondary, and then I came to this country for college. Q: Did you like school? WING: Oh, very much. I was a very good student. As a matter of fact, I had a GPA of 3.5 in college. And I have my master degree in engineering, too. My master degree’s GPA was 3.8. Q: And, are you Catholic? WING: Fortunately, or unfortunately, I’m not. I don’t have any religion, personally. I respect all the religions, but I don’t believe in any religion. I respect all of them, because they are all good. Q: So, what kinds of things did you do for fun, growing up in Hong Kong? What was your daily life like there? WING? You mean, when I was there? Q: Yeah. WING: At that time, there wasn’t anything like what we have now. We did not have any video game, we did not have any TV, at that time if you own a TV at home you are very luxury, you are like rich. But at that time, not to many people had a TV at home. So we just hang around with our school friends and play some kind of games of our own, you know, but at that time when I was in Catholic school, I have a lot of school friends that they are from other countries. So we learned English from them and they learned Chinese from us, which is a lot of fun. I love that kind of interchanging knowledges, which is good. Q: And how about when you were a teenager, what sort of social life did you have? WING: Very simple. Because I grew up in a family that is pretty strict. We are not allowed to go out, hanging around the street, by ourselves, so I usually stayed home, and we usually go out with our friends with the permission of my mother, or father, you know, so it’s like very simple. Usually we go out to the movies, or go to play some kind of a basketball, or you know, sports, that’s all. Pretty simple, and pretty enjoyable. Q: What kinds of movies would you see? WING: Some Western, some Chinese movies. At that time, there are a lot of movies from the United States too---they are in Hong Kong, so a lot of good movies I saw in Hong Kong, I’ve seen again here on TV, which is very funny. Q: How did you make the decision to come to college in the United States? WING: Because when I graduate from the secondary school, there were only two universities in Hong Kong. And when you graduate from a secondary school, how many students? Over a hundred thousand students, to go into two universities for about two thousand seats---the two thousand seats not only for the students in Hong Kong, but for overseas students, too. So you’re talking about only a thousand seats for a hundred thousand, more than a hundred thousand people. Less than one percent. So I could not make it. So that’s why I have to come to this country for college education. Q: I remember you said that your father was a cook in the Philippines. Did he come and live with you all in Hong Kong at all while you were there? WING: Yes. My father worked like ten months over there, and come to Hong Kong for two months vacation, and every year is like that. Q: I remember you telling me before in our previous interview that you met him for the first time when you were eight. WING: Yes. Because when I was about like a few months old, my father left China for Hong Kong, and then from Hong Kong to the Philippines. But when we arrived at Hong Kong, he was in the Philippines, so I didn’t see my father until I was eight years old. The first time he came there from the Philippines to Hong Kong was 1964, 65, something like that, so that I was like about eight years old, maybe less. That was the first time I met my father. Q: What was it like when you met him? WING: Oh, very exciting. In the Hong Kong’s Airport, at that time. Now, it’s, I’ve heard they have another, bigger airport now, so, at that time, it’s like dreaming, you know? It’s sort of very common at that time in the Chinese family, because parents, especially the father, usually they have to go out to work. It’s difficult to make a living in China at that time, so we usually stay home, and father work outside China, in Hong Kong, or in some other Southeast Asian countries, at that time Southeast Asian countries have a better economy than China. So they work there, and then they send money back to China. That’s very, very, usual at that time. But after we went to Hong Kong, we met each other, so we were, sort of, closer to each other. And we are lucky. A lot of people they don’t---they are not like us, they probably did not see their father for many, many years. It’s very, very possible. Q: How did you feel then, when he had to go back to the Philippines, after you had met him for the first time? WING: You mean, my father? Well, you know, at that time, I knew that he would come back in about another ten, twelve months, so you know, there’s a hope there, which is better than the first time that I had seen my father, eight years ago, which is too long. Q: So, when you were getting ready to come to college in the United States, what were your expectations like about what your life here would be? WING: I did not expect a very easy life, which I prepared for it already. I knew that to go to a new environment, to go to new place, you have to start all over again---it’s not easy. Which I managed to handle everything correctly, and because I was brought up in a family that had a very good---my family is very strict. My mother and mother they did not allow me to do this and do that. We are not in a Catholic family, but some of the Chinese way of teaching the kids, I think they are good in certain ways. I’m not saying that they’re 100 percent okay, but at least I was influenced by those thoughts. And I use the same thoughts that my parents taught me to teach my kids now. I don’t know whether they accept my teaching or not, but I at least I do the same thing now. Q: Is there anything you do different now, than what your parents did? WING: Oh, yeah. Because the kids now is a lot different from---the time is different. A lot different from what we were before. So it’s like, sort of they have more freedom than what we had before. Freedom in a way that my parents say something at the time, we could not say now. They could now. They can say no, to us. Which, you know, I have a very open mind. I am not like a very, too strict like my parents. But I still let them know that some Chinese way of educating and teaching the kids, the way that we are teaching them, is better than the Westerners. But I would say not 100 percent --- at least, passed down through our ancestors to now---has been proven to be good, so I think some of them they accept it, some of them they do not because they thought that’s, that’s ridiculous, that’s what they thought. I know (laughs) they think it that way. Q: Can you give me some examples of things you do that part of the Chinese way of raising children? WING: We punish them, we will punish them, like what you call---this country does not allow to do that. We hit them. We use the, what they call the ruler or something to hit their butts. That’s what we usually do. But, we try not to do that, because we thought that that wasn’t that good either. To me, personally, that’s not good. But at least, we had to let them know we have that kind of penalty for the kids before. But they thought that’s ridiculous. And we were not allowed to do that in this country. So I would say that sometimes you do need something like this to help the kids to understand rules and regulations. Q: What are some other things? Can you think of any others? WING: We teach them to pay respect to their elders, parents, grandparents, not only us, but people outside our families too. Which, in this country the educational system to me, personally I think that they do not teach this kind of moral thing than what we had before. They only teach them knowledges in terms of books, in terms of computers, in terms of mathematics, that’s it. They do not teach them how to live in the society, how to live with other people, how to face other people, that kind of thing. I don’t think they have enough education like what we had before. Q: I wanted to ask you, when you were deciding to go to college here, were there any other options that you considered at that point, when you were finished with high school, besides going to college? WING: No. I had a very strong will that I wanted to come to this country for college. That’s the only way---one way street. I never thought of other alternatives, because I love education, and I love coming to this country. Of all the countries in the world, I have considered, like Australia, New Zealand, England, Canada, I pick this country. I like this country better. Q: Why? WING: I don’t know why. Because I have a feeling that this country has a better education than other countries, which, when I saw, when I read from newspapers about the Nobel Prize people, a lot of them are from this country, so I was very influenced by those articles in the newspaper. Q: Were there any other things you remember seeing that made you think that maybe life in America would be for you? WING: Yes, because at that time, as I said, because my family was so strict, I at that time was a teenager, I need freedom. I want to be free. But, I wanted to taste the freedom in this country also, which I experienced for many years. I know that freedom is something but you’ve got to make good use of the freedom. You just cannot abuse it. That’s another thing. I want to leave my family. I want to be free. Q: Did you abuse your freedom at all when you got here? WING: No, not at all. I am a very self-disciplined person. When I say something, I will do it. When I promise somebody something, I will deliver the promise. That’s why I---well, probably this is the education from my family. Q: Could you share some of your first impressions that you had when you came here? WING: First impressions? Q: The first day that you got here. WING: Oh, the first day I got here. At that time, we stayed in Chinatown. And when I know America, this country on TV, on newspaper, it wasn’t like that. There’s a lot of high-rise buildings, you know. It’s a very advanced country. How come the buildings in this country is so old, and a lot of the buildings are like---we didn’t even have that in Hong Kong. We had better living conditions than a lot of the buildings here, a lot of the apartments here. And, it was like, to me it’s like a totally different thing as what I have read in the paper or on the TV, so it was not a good impression to me when I first came here. But after I find out that a lot of the buildings had been---for so many years because of the zoning problems, because of the---a lot of restrictions, you’re not allowed to do anything. That’s why they keep the way it was. But in Hong Kong it’s different. Buildings that they are older than 20 years, they knock down and build high rises, more space for people, so a lot of the buildings in Hong Kong are newer than here. Q: Did you know anyone when you first came here? WING: My sister was here at that time. I came here, I lived with my sister for a few months, then I moved to New Jersey because I studied in New Jersey. Q: So your sister and her family and friends, did they give you any advice about what you’d have to do to make a life for yourself here? Do you remember any conversations you had with people when you first got here about Chinatown, or about life in the United States? WING: At that time, when I first came to this country was 1976, there wasn’t too many Chinese at that time, as compared today. There’s like ten times more than ’76, so it was more quiet than what we have right now, less people than what we are right now. It’s not exactly like what we are right now. What I’m saying is, it’s not like Hong Kong. Now, it’s like 90 percent like Hong Kong. Before it’s like, it’s like Chinatown, really a Chinatown. A lot of things I’ve seen is very, very, funny as compared to same things that we had in Hong Kong. Many people still live in that way. It’s different from what I’ve seen in Hong Kong, so it’s very funny. Q: Like what? WING: The bowls are thicker. We had the very beautiful bowls that we would have the rice, to eat on. The bowls. They’re very thick, and it’s very Americanized. Something that, in daily life, that we use is different from what we are using in Hong Kong. Q: So what was college like for you? WING: Difficult. I work and study at the same time, and so, pretty tough to me. But I, as I say, I have a very self-disciplined for myself, so I manage to finish my college in three and a half years. I have no problem. Q: What did your parents think about you doing coming here? WING: When I told them that I’m coming to this country, they said okay. They give me permission to come here. Q: Did you keep in touch with them after you were here? WING: Oh, yeah. Q: How did you keep in touch with them? WING: I wrote them letters. At that time, telephone wasn’t that popular like what we have right now. It was very expensive to call international calls. It’s like three dollars per minute at that time. It’s very expensive. So, only call---I only call my parents on the phone during Chinese New Year’s, just once a year, because it’s too expensive. I write, I wrote them letters. Q: Why did you choose engineering? WING: I was a science student. In Hong Kong, when you are in Form Three, or Form Four, that’s tenth grade, you have to decide whether you go to arts or science. I picked a science subject, so that’s how I got into engineering field. Q: Did you enjoy studying that? WING: Oh, very much. I love engineering fields, I liked engineering courses. I was a mechanical engineer. I worked as a mechanical engineer for five years before I start my own business. Q: So it sounds like you were very busy during college. When you did have a little bit of spare time, what did you do? WING: I didn’t have much spare time. When I have spare time, I study, I work, I enjoy my college life very much. It was tough, but very rewarding to me, you know, because I got my degree, I find my job. Everything works out fine to me. Q: Was there anything that surprised you, or that was unexpected about your life here? WING: Like what? I--- Q: Anything, anything about you know, what American people were like, or what---school? WING: In school, nothing surprised me. Actually, the first two year of the school, in the college, was not that hard to me, because a lot of the subjects I learned before in Hong Kong. The third year, we had the major subjects, that’s the year that’s the toughest year. Third year. Junior is the toughest year for me. Senior is a lot, is a bit easier, because the major subjects are what we studied before applied to the labs and everything, so Junior is the toughest year. A lot of new subjects to me that I never learned before. Mechanical engineering subjects. That’s the year that I spent a lot of time studying. Other than that, nothing special. Nothing surprised me. But about my business, it surprised me that the government is not supporting the industry. They are using---I think they betrayed the industry because they used our industries to trade some other business or some other thing from other countries, like they are selling high-tech to other countries, and in returning they let them import the garment to the country. It’s good and no good, you know? Q: So you’re married, is that right? WING: Yeah. Q: How did you meet your wife? WING: I met my wife in Hong Kong. She---my wife is my brother-in-law’s niece. So we are, like, we knew each other when she was in Hong Kong, when we met each other. So, when she came to this country, then we met again and that’s how we got married. Q: Did you keep in touch before she came here? WING: Very rare, because I was so busy, and I didn’t have time to---I only wrote letters to her like three times, and that’s it. Q: Did she come here with the idea that you would get married, or did you sort of--- WING: No, she just came here, and then we met, and then, no we did not expect that at that time. Q: So what was it about her that made you want to marry her? WING: Oh, my wife is a very strong-willed lady. She is pretty, she is nice, she is hard-working, she works together with me when we had a business together, and she almost like managed the whole business for me internally, so I have time to do externally. Q: When you were working as an engineer, what kinds of work did you do? WING: Design engineer. I worked in three different companies. The first company, called the CE-Lummus in Bloomfield, New Jersey. It’s a company that builds lots of petrol chemical plants, and I’m working in the mechanical engineering department of that company. And the next company I work for is a machine design company, designing spot welding machine. The third company I work for is a filter company. They make a lot of filters. It’s one of the largest filter company in this country, called the Pall Corporation, in Long Island. Q: Why did you switch from job to job? WING: If you don’t switch, you don’t get paid better, at that time. You have to---either you have to find a job that pay you better, or, if you stay there, you don’t---the raise each year that they pay you cannot catch up with the job that you switch. If you switch a job, you get a better pay. Q: So then you opened your own business, after five years of working as an engineer? WING: Yes. Q: What led you to make that decision? WING: When I had my third job, I was laid off by that company, and engineering was very good at that time when I was graduated from college. After wards, it just went down. Most of the engineering firms are laying off people, so I was one of them, so that’s why. I got laid off at that time, so I was without job for like about nine months. And during the nine months I drove, like, a black car—they call it the limousine---I drove a black car for nine months in order to make a living, you know. That was before I opened up my business. Q: How did you get into---could you say a little bit about what kind of business it was? WING: It’s a garment manufacturing business. I opened up a factory in Chinatown, and I hired like about, at that time, when I just started I hired about fifty, sixty people. And before I closed my business, I hired more than 100 people. Q: How did you get the capital to start a business? WING: My brother-in-law helped me. He helped me---he was in the business at that time, in the garment business before me. And he started his business in 1977. I, when I got laid off, he said if I want to be in the business he would help me. So he gave me the capital to open up the business. Q: What was the garment industry like at the time that you got into it? WING: At that time, it’s a lot easier. When I say easier, it’s, there were not too many competitions from offshore. Everything you did was domestic. Not everything, I would say 95 percent are domestic. Only like rarely to from the imports. As compared of today, 99 percent are from imports. Only one percent are domestic. Maybe I’m exaggerate a little bit, but it’s close---it has to be very close to that. Q: What sorts of things did you make? WING: I make women’s clothing. Sportswear. Skirts, pants, you know, those are the items that I made. And I made those items for Sears, for JC Penny, for Wal-Mart or Kmart. A lot of big chain stores. And those big chain stores now they bought from offshore. So we’ve lost a lot of business domestically. Q: Was it hard to find workers? WING: In the beginning, yes, when I just started, in like, 85, it’s not easy to find workers, because not too many new immigrants. In the ‘90s, starting from the ’90s, when there are a lot of new immigrants coming from China, coming from Hong Kong, coming from a lot of Southeast Asia countries, then it’s a lot easier to find workers. What I mean, easier to find workers, doesn’t mean that you can find a good worker. Good worker is difficult to find still. Luckily, about 80 percent of my workers, when I closed down my business, they will stay with me. A lot of them are with me for more than ten years. They are very nice to me, and I’m very nice to them, too, I believe. (laughs) We had a very good relationship. Otherwise they would not stay with me for so many years. Q: Could you tell me a little bit about the people who worked for you? WING: Mostly ladies, because they are doing needleworks--- WING: ---a few men doing some kind of physical work. That’s why my wife is taking care of the inside work. It’s easier to let girls talk to girls, right? So I went outside and got the business. Q: Were your workers unionized? WING: Yes. We were actually a union shop. All our workers are union members. We belong to, at that time it was ILGWU---International Ladies Garment Workers Union. Now it’s called UNITE, Local 23-25. Q: Did you ever have any problems, any labor problems, during that time you had the business? WING: Internally, no. Externally, yes. Not because of our workers, but because of the external problems, like the union problem, the, some kind of outside influence as, not because we had a problem, we never had a problem. I have---most of the time I have enough work for my workers, I pay them well, I pay them on time, I have no problem with them, and that’s why they’ve been with me for so many years. A lot of shops, not because they are not good, but because a lot of times they could not do the paperwork and everything accordingly, so a lot of the workers they may not like the shops. That’s why. I would say, 99 percent is the management of the business. If you manage your business well, everything’s fine. It doesn’t really matter you are union or non-union, or, you know, anything. Q: So what do you think it was about your shop that made 80 percent of your workers stay with you? WING: Stable. I have a very stable work supply for them, and I have, I pay them very stable. I don’t pay them like, this week something, next week something. Everything is like, on a very good track. So, if you have a good system, everybody will follow. That’s how I think. Q: So what was an average wage? Do you remember what your workers would make when you first opened in the 80s? WING: Let’s see, I have to think. At that time, in ’85, I believe the rate was three dollars something, I don’t remember exactly, and then four dollars something, and then---right now, it’s about six dollar ninety cents per hour or seven dollars, something like that. Don’t quote me, because I’ve been out of business for four years now. Probably now it’s about seven dollars an hour. Union rates. The federal rate is $5.15 an hour. State rate is $4.75. Q: So you didn’t pay by the piece, but by the hour? WING: We pay by the piece, but we convert the piece to hour, so they got paid more than that. Q: Why did you end up having to close the business? WING: I could not compete with the importers. Let me give an example. For a piece of, let’s say for a pair of pants like this. If I have to make it here, just the labor alone may cost you, let’s say, five dollars. If you buy a pair of pants from China, from Sri Lanka, from India, from whatever Southeast Asian country, five dollars is including everything, with the material. How can I compete with them? With us, just the labor alone is five dollars, so we have no way to compete with them. The only thing, the only reason that there’re still some shops still around because we have what they call the quick-response system. We can make something that the offshore people cannot do. Time. We have a shorter period of time to finish something that the manufacturers want us to do, which the offshore manufacturer could not do it. Like we can do it in something, two or three weeks, or even a week. If you do something offshore, you cannot make it in about three months. You know, so that’s the only advantage we have. That’s why there are still some shops around. Q: You were president of the Garment Manufacturers Association--- WING: I was. Q: Twice? WING: Two times. Q: How did that come about? WING: It’s an association that gathers all the---our member actually is the shop owner. We have, like, every year we have a function, an annual dinner or gala, we exchange some information, and we have meetings every month, like I’m going to the meeting later on. They still have me as a board member because they want me to have some input to the Association, which I appreciate them. But every year we had a fundraising, not actually a fundraising, we just get some money to maintain the association, and that’s it. We are not making money from that dinner or anything. And people are participating very well, every year. Even though, right now, the economy isn’t that good, they are still supporting the Association, because this is the only association in garment industry locally in our community. There were a few before, but they could not last like what we last. Our association is like, 45 years now. Q: What were some of the things that you had to do as the president? What were some of your duties? WING: We negotiate the contract every three years with the union. We try to get the best benefit to our association members, as well as the workers. It sounds like very contradiction, but it’s not. The reason being that the workers actually, we face them everyday. Even though they’re union members, we want to get the best benefits out of the union for them. And as an association president, we have like a lot of board members, then we have a negotiation team, to negotiate with the union every three years about the contract. And we go to some other association or some other states to get some resources back to New York. That’s what we’re doing. Q: How would you do that? WING: We have a lot of like Garment Industry Development Corporation. They have an office down on Centre Street. We work very closely with them, and even though we have a contract with a union, we work very closely for the union to try to get some work back from other states, or back from offshore, which did help a little, but not very successful because bottom line is price---we cannot compete with offshores. But at least they will give us something to do here, and if they need something very, like quick response, they would stay with us. They would not go to some other places. Q: What sorts of things were you negotiating with the union over, during the time that you were president of the Garment Manufacturers Association? WING: Mostly on the benefits for the workers and what the shop owners, our members--- Health benefit is the most important thing, because every member, every union member, that is, every worker in our shops, they need health benefit, which is getting more and more expensive, and they could not, a lot of their workers could not afford it. And now, a lot of the workers has to co-pay, which is a very heavy burden for them, which I, when I was president of the association, I tried to have the union make them not to do the co-pay, but very unsuccessful, and now they try to have the shop owner do the co-pay for them, which is very unfair to the shop owner either, because it’s very expensive overhead for the shop owners. We’re talking about, about two hundred some dollars a month per worker. It’s very expensive. Q: Where was your factory specifically located? WING: Not too far from here. Located on Mott Street. Now the building has been converted to a medical building. Half of it, not the whole building. Because that building is like two buildings, but they have a big building by knocking down the walls years ago, it’s a very old building, and over 10,000 square feet per floor. I was on the third floor. Now they have half of the building became a professional building, and the other half is still garment manufacturing. And I don’t think they have any more lease, and they are only working like month to month. Q: When you closed the business, what happened to the people who were working there? How did they react? WING: Some of my workers, they cried. They would never have thought of me closing down the business, because I had been supplying a very stable work source for them, so they, the money had been very stable for so many years. They never thought of going out to work for some other people. So, it was a tough time for a lot of the workers, too. Q: Do you know what kind of work they were able to find afterwards? WING: Afterwards, some of them work for other factories, some of them changed their professions to become, how do you put it, medical help or something like that, I don’t know what they call it, they have to be trained by the CPC (Chinese-American Planning Council) or Manpower, to become qualified for this job. Q: Nurse practitioner? WING: Something like yeah, home helper, or whatever, to help the seniors. Q: Do you ever see any of them? WING: Oh, yeah. Even now, I met a lot of my previous workers on the street. And they still want me to open up again, but I say I cannot do it. Not because of me alone, just because of the economy, because of the competition, that we cannot compete with the offshores. So I couldn’t do it. Q: How did you decide that that was the moment when you needed to close the shop? WING: At that time, when I closed my business, I still make money. I’m not losing money, but I figure out if I still want to do it, I make some projections. I will be losing money maybe in about six months. So I said if I keep on doing this for another six months I will be losing a lot of money. So I would rather do it now than six months later. So, which, I think I make a very good decision. Right now a lot of people are, a lot of the shop owners are crying for what they are doing. Not because they don’t have work. Sometimes they have work, but no workers. Sometimes they have workers, no work. It’s very difficult to make the adjustment. Q: What were your options, then, after you closed the factory? WING: I was looking for some other business, but at that time, when I closed my business, it was in 1999, and the economy was going down. At that time, the economy wasn’t look good, I did not decide to do anything yet, so I like, stayed home for two years, did not do anything, I just see which is the right way for me to go to. Which business is going to be better for me to get into. So, about a year and a half, two years ago, I started to work again, but not business. I’m working for another business now. Liquor industry. Q: And what do you do? WING: I was working as a sales rep for a distributor, but right now I’m working for a supplier. Q: And how did you pick that? WING: I like liquor, cognac, very much. That’s how I got to know a lot of the people in the industry. And they referred me to some of the job openings over there. I find it a pretty interesting industry. Q: You’ve been involved in the community in all different kinds of ways. You talked about being involved in the Garment Manufacturing Association. Could you talk about some of the other things that you’ve done? WING: I was---when Speaker Peter Vallone was the councilman of New York City I was one of the Asian American Advisory Council member of Peter Vallone. The job of that is to bring messages from our community back to the City Council. Tell them what we expect the city council to do, and what we want and what we need from the city. This is one of the positions that I had when I was president of the association. And I happened to know of the Museum of Chinese in the Americas, and I find it is very educational and very good for the next generation to know about the Chinese heritage, and so I you know, support this Museum of Chinese in the Americas as well. Q: When you were on the Asian American Advisory Committee for Peter Vallone, what sorts of issues were you dealing with? What sorts of messages did you bring to him? WING: I remember at that time there was some street cleaning problem that we tried to bring it to the city, and some parking meter problem, because a lot of parking, there are, like, no place for the people to park in Chinatown, that will cause a lot of people not to come to Chinatown and have a lot of tourists not coming to Chinatown. So we tell the city to give us a lot of, more parking space, more people to direct the traffic, to make it easier for the people to come to here, and help the restaurant and help the other business to grow in Chinatown. That’s all. You know, most of the issues of the community. Q: And were you successful in getting what the neighborhood needed? WING: Sort of, yes. Pretty good. Like before, I would say before 1995 or something like that, Canal Street they allow to have people park there, and blocking the traffic. Yes. Now no more. You are not allowed to park on Canal Street. Even after seven o’clock. Which is good, I would say, because you can have a lot of traffic flow thoroughly, not staying there and polluting the whole community. Q: You were also on the Community Board. Is that right? WING: That was in 1993, I remember. I was on the CB Three, Community Board Three for about two years. Q: And what was that experience like? WING: We had vender problems, venders, you know the people that are selling, the, what they call the---a lot of the, maybe the souvenir on the streets so we want to group them together and put them in Roosevelt Park---is it Roosevelt Park? Yeah---and, but very unsuccessful, because they only been there for like about a few months, and then they have to be relocated or, so, I feel there is very too much politics involved, so I quit. I cannot tell them---I told them what it is; I hope they can follow my way of doing it, but I find out that it’s not that simple. Something that we cannot just say and they will do it, so I will say, it’s not something I can manage, so I quit and I’m not going to be a member anymore. Q: So on the day of September 11, 2001, where were you? How did you find out what happened? WING: I was home. That morning, I was trying to drive to work, and before I left, my sister called me. She said, “There is a plane hit the World Trade Center.” I said, “What?” And I turn on the television. I saw the smoke coming out from one of the towers that was hit, and then I watch the TV for like a few minutes---another plane, hit, hit the building. It’s like watching a movie, but it’s real. There was something that have a very big impact to me, because World Trade Center is like a landmark of our city. And I’ve been like New Yorkers, and I love New York. It’s like something that---I could not believe it, so--- I almost cried, you know? It’s like something I cannot accept. Two days, I watch TV, I didn’t go to work. Like, you don’t know what you’re doing, you know? It’s very, very, upset. Q: What were you thinking about as far as Chinatown as you were watching that happen? WING: The first thing I did was, I called a lot of friends in Chinatown. Tell them to leave as soon as possible. Because I have a lot of friends, they are working in Chinatown. A lot of friends that still have business in Chinatown. I tell them, don’t stay here, go home. I know there’s something---if something like this happen, it is terribly wrong. So, luckily, in the beginning, the phone still working. But after awhile, the phone was not working, and then, only the cell phone was working, and after a while---even the cell phone is not working! So it’s very, like, to me it was like the end of the world at that time. Very frustrating, very, very upset. A lot of my friends, they could not get home on time, they had to stay in Manhattan for like another day before they could go to their home. It’s like, Chinatown was like totally paralyzed. Not only Chinatown, but even up to, the whole Manhattan, whole New York, even the whole country, for that two day was like doing nothing. Q: You have children, right? WING: I have two children. Q: Two children. How did you explain to them what had happened? How did they find out about it? WING: Oh, they knew it through school. School, I think they have television, and the teacher, you know, tell them what happened. Q: How did they feel about it? WING: First they---I don’t really know how they feel, but what I know is the kids are very patriotic to the country. That’s what I understand. Q: What do you mean by patriotic? WING: Patriotic to the country? What I mean is like my son, he is very Americanized. He’s like, you know, everything is USA, so that’s why, it’s very, it’s a lot of impact to these kids, too, because it’s something they’ve been seeing, they’ve been there before, and now no more. I would say the kids are also very upset about that too. Q: Do you feel patriotic? Q: So you mentioned that your son was feeling very patriotic, or is a patriotic person. How about you, are you patriotic? WING: Yes. But when I just came to the country, and I, to me, it’s---everything was new to me, but as time goes by, I’ve been in this country for so many years. I’ve been like, personally I’ve felt that I already naturalized to this country, and that’s why I think---and I’m an American citizen now, so I think I am a patriotic person. But I don’t know if the country look at it to me that way too, you know? I don’t think they think it that way. But, I don’t know. But as far as I’m concerned, I think I am very patriotic to the country. Q: When you say that you’re not sure if the country thinks of you as patriotic, what do you mean by that? WING: Because, well, as I said, this is an immigration country. Everybody, except the Indian, the red Indian, they are the domestic local people. Everybody came from outside countries, like Irish, Scotland, England, or European country, Asian country, everybody come from all different places. But the people that control this country now, they---only controlled by a small group of people. Whatever they think is right, is right, is wrong is wrong. So, of course, I think it’s more up to them to think whether you are really a patriotic person or not. It is not up to what I think. It is up to them. That’s what I mean. Q: Did September 11 effect or change the way you feel patriotic at all? WING: It make me more patriotic than before. Because I think they should not---I mean, the people that they attack the World Trade Center, they should not do that. This is nothing to do with the innocent people. If you are not agree with the government, you fight with the government, not with the innocent people, which I think it’s just very, very, wrong, very, very bad thing that they have been done. Q: You own real estate in Chinatown also, is that right? WING: Yes. Q: How did you first start getting into that? WING: Because I want to diversify my investment, to begin with, so when I was in my garment industry business, I tried to diversify my investment in real estate in Chinatown, and at that time I did not have any, like intention, or anything like---just wanted to do some investment, that’s all. And I found out that right now that prove that to be a very good investment, because all the real estate has been growing tremendously in the last two-three years, especially in early 2000, the year 2000. It’s like booming. And right now it’s still good, but not as good as like a year ago. As far as the rental concerned, after 9/11 I was totally affected by the incident of 911. Because all my tenants moved out gradually, and my building was like vacant for more than twenty months. And little by little, I had my new tenants back, and right now, I only have 60 percent of my building rent. I still need more tenants. But I still have to pay my real estate tax, I still have to pay my---everything. I applied for some assistance from the government. All I got is about six thousand dollars. Not even one month of my mortgage payment. I pay my mortgage like about twelve thousand dollars a month. Q: Where did you apply for the assistance? WING: I applied through the one on Williams Street. I forgot the name of it. There are two places where you can do some application. One is on Williams and one is on Rector (Street). I did it through the Williams Street. Q: How did you hear that you might---that the government, or that different organizations, were giving out aid? WING: There are a lot of non-profit organizations, they give out brochures, they had some information that they give out on radio, on Chinese radio too. So I called and find out I am qualified for this. So I went to get an application and applied for it. But I didn’t know that, that’s the only, only like six thousand I got for over twenty months suffering. Q: How did they come up with that figure? WING: They said two percent of my income. That’s how they got that figure. Q: When you went to apply for the aid, what was the place like, were people friendly and helpful, or was it really difficult to get through the paperwork? WING: They were very friendly, very helpful. But the only thing is, the decision, and the amount of money to be qualified for who, and for what, you know, that’s not decided by those people. That is decided by somebody else. And by looking at those applications, you don’t really know whether these people are really the sufferers or not. That’s what I thought. I told them that I lost a lot of income because of that, and they only say that because you are not---as a landlord, you are not really a business over there, I thought, that’s wrong, because I do business in the real estate business, this is business. They said it’s not. So, they said only qualify for about two percent of my total annual income. That’s how they got the figure. Q: I have to change the tape. Q: You were talking about the aid that you got after September 11. I’m curious---the friends that you have in Chinatown, business people that you know or individuals, what sorts of stories have you heard about being trying to get aid? WING: Not that many, because I wasn’t involved too much about this, but I heard the people that they live in this area, residents, they get more than I got, as a business person. I don’t know how they justify it, who is going to get more or less or how much. I really don’t understand how they get a figure like this, and for our business, and, that you lost in this period of time. We are not asking for more---we are just asking for, like, for example the real estate tax---I just want them to give me like some time to pay. I paid, like about two weeks late; they charged me the interest for two hundred dollars and change. They still charge me for that. Not because I don’t want to pay, but because I had a hard time to pay at that time. I have no tenants, and I have to get the money from someplace else. Out of my own pocket. So it took me a while to, you know, to do this. It was like a very hard period of time for me at that time. Now it is a lot better, because I have my new tenants over there, and everything works out okay. At least I don’t have to lose money. I’m breaking even now. But I got to make up something that I lost for the twenty months that I have my building vacant at that time. So it’s very, very difficult. I hope the government can do something to those business owner in the area. And I’m from south of Canal, which is the secondary major damage area. And there is something that I don’t understand which is I don’t understand why they don’t give us, like my new tenants, give us some leeway or some assistance to my new tenants, because my new tenants are opening up a business over there, and they have to go to Department of Building to apply a lot of license, or you know, doing the renovations, things like that, and the Department of Building they give them a lot of hard time. I really don’t understand why they do that. They are bringing business to this area, and make it prosperous again. And they try to give them hard time---what kind of a psychological thinking is that, you know? I think this is too bureaucratic. That’s it. Q: You’ve been involved in politics before, and you know, trying to get the community’s concerns heard by the government. Did you ever consider complaining, or trying to change the way they were dealing with the aid? WING: I don’t think I, as a person, can do anything about it. But I did talk to a lot of non-profit organization people, that I know of, but it doesn’t seem to be like any successful. I only just talked to them, you know. I just talked to them about if cases like what I have maybe a lot of people, have a very similar situation like what I have, so what should we do? Nobody could give me an answer. Q: Who did you talk to? WING: I talked to people from CPC, you know, those local non-profit organization. They supposedly have to help those local community people. Q: Who were your tenants before September 11? WING: Before September 11 I had people---my tenant, one of my tenants is Pearl Paint, they use my place as a office and warehouse, and I have a second and third floor was garment industry, garment factory. Q: And now? WING: And now, my first floor is a restaurant and bar. Second floor in a training center. Ironically, it’s a place for people to get job re-training, after the effect of the 9/11. This is the institute that you have to go to. One of the institutes. And the third floor is artists that is making sculptures, those sorts of things, for big companies. Q: How do the rents compare? WING: About the same that I rent before, because the situation wasn’t that good. If I insist to get more rents, I don’t think I would rent it out today. So I lower my rent like tremendously. A little bit better than before. That’s all. But I give them a lot of free rents, a lot of---many months. Like, some of them I give them like six, seven months free rent, in order to get them to stay here. You have to do something, otherwise, I don’t have any advantage. Q: What kind of a restaurant is it that’s opening? WING: The owner is three partners. One of them from India, one from Turkey, and the other one, I never seen them. He is in Florida, and he is in garment importing business. (laughs) So they are opening a restaurant and bar over there, because that’s the area I think it’s very good for the, they call it TriBeCa, it’s very good for the yuppies, to stay, hanging around after work, and happy hours. So I think it will be helping the area to become more prosperous again. Because right now, right after 9/11 was like a dead city, nobody wants to go there. Now, people start to, little by little, going back to the TriBeCa area again. I can see that, you know? And during the off hour, like from five to seven, a lot of people kind of stopping by a bar, having a drink, or have something to eat over there, very good, you know the environment is getting better and better. That’s why I think the Housing Department has to give the tenants not only mine, the people who want to do business over there, some kind of help, and not give them too much hard time. Q: And where exactly is that building? WING: I’m sorry? Q: And where exactly is that building? WING: The building is on 52 Walker, two blocks south of Canal. (coughs) Q: Want some water? WING: No, I’m fine. Probably because of the air. Q: What do you think the government or non profits could have done better, to help the people in Chinatown and businesses in Chinatown after September 11? WING: I don’t want to have any offense to anybody, but they could have done a lot better job than this. There’s a lot of money out there for, to help the people, for people that has been suffered from 9/11, but I don’t think the money has been allocated correctly. A lot of the money has been wasted, and a lot of the money has been sitting there, doing nothing. Because---I don’t know, whatever reason, either bureaucratic, or something, they just do not want to give it out. That’s why, by the end of the deadline, they want to rush the money out to whoever that is qualified, even though they are really not qualified. Something like, in my situation, I think I should get at least something to compensate, or some kind of grants, or some kind of, you know, loans or something, to help me for this hard period of time, but I didn’t get anything. Or, I get something, but it’s not enough for me to maintain a month, so from my own opinion is they should really do something more personal, instead of just give them a very brief review and they giving out the money. I don’t think that’s correct. And I heard a lot of cases, a lot of instances that they have to get the money back from the people that they gave it to, which is something that they did not do in the right place to begin with. Q: The first phase was giving out aid to people. Now there’s all this money coming into New York for reconstruction. If you had some of that money to use in Chinatown, what would you do? WING: For the community? Q: Yes. WING: To improve the business, you have to do something like advertising and make to clean up the streets, to direct the traffic better, and have all the restaurants, all the business people to participate. A lot of campaigns: this month is for restaurant, this month is for banking, or this one is for finance, or you know, different business center has a special for a month, right? And I don’t think you have to spend a lot of money to do something like this, because those business people, if they participate, I think they will be very willing to give some money too. So between the government, and the business, and the community people, they can participate into the program with the help of the non-profit organization, I think they can do a good job. Each month have something different for the whole year, and then have some advertising, not only to attract the local people, but to attract tourists from out of state, even out of the country. It would help to boom up the---not only in this area, but the vicinity area as well, like Wall Street. Less and less people come into New York because of the tax, because of the instance of 9/11. You have to bring back the people to come to this area, to this city. Right after 9/11 the hotel rate was so low, now it’s slightly picking up again. But before 9/11 the hotel rate was very good. I heard they were booking like over 90 percent in the whole city, so you see the difference. And between that 9/11, the two years, a lot of business went, out of business, a lot of restaurants or some other business, they are totally gone. Now, you give them a chance to come back again, you give them a chance to do business again. You need to help them. I think the city, the federal, the state, they should do something, not only to New York, Chinatown, but to the whole city. Q: Do you think there are any organizations, or even any individuals in Chinatown who could organize or lead or advocate for something like that? WING: It’s---I believe it’s not individual, or one organization or two organizations to do it. It’s a group effort. Everybody has to participate. Q: I was asking you about who in Chinatown could possible lead or organize an effort to do some redevelopment or whatever, and you’re saying it has to be a group effort. WING: Yes, but, I’ve got to add something with the two largest organization. Not non-profit, but they are the community organizations. One is called the CCBA (Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association), and the other one is the American Fujianese Association. These are the two biggest community associations in Chinatown. And they have a lot of influence to many people here. And I think they should do the lead of the functions that we just mentioned. Q: Would you ever consider getting involved with something like that? WING: If possible, yeah. I’d be involved, not a problem. I would do my best. Q: I remember you talking in the first interview we did about how a lot of the people who were here when you first came were here to make money and get out and weren’t really involved in the community. You, who came at that time, have done all kinds of community work. What is it about you that makes you get involved in that way? WING: A lot of people they don’t live in this community. They only work here. They only make money from the community, and then they leave. I’ve been living in the community for many, many years, and before I move, the reason I move is because I need my kids to live in a better environment. Just me and my wife, we didn’t care about that really. I live in Chinatown for more than fifteen years. And then, I believe that if you are making money from a community, not only here, whatever community that you’re living in, you should give back something to the community, in terms of money, in terms of work, in terms of charitable functions or anything, anything that you can possibly think of, I think you should do something, work something, pay back to the community, because what you are making, the money is from the community, so this is, as I said before, something like our education from Chinese way. You do something you’ve got to pay back something to, you know, whoever helped you. Q: Why do you think Chinatown hasn’t gotten the same amount of money or attention as other neighborhoods that have been effected by September 11? WING: They did not get as much money like the other neighborhood? I really don’t know, but I think probably there are too many chiefs, no Indians. Too many people applied for the same money, and nobody like of the leader of the community to do the same thing. So it’s not focused enough. Too many people doing the same thing. They just can’t give the money to---certain money to this association. They’ve got to give it to all of them. So that is why the money is like spread out. Q: Can you talk a little bit more about some of the reasons why you aren’t so actively involved in politics now as you were in the past? WING: At that time, I was in the business, and I thought, I hoped that politicians, politics and business, should go hand in hand in order to make your business better, in order to make your community better, in order to help the people in the community better. Yes. Sometimes they will help. But a lot of politicians they change every four years. Sometimes they can help you, but after four years, they can’t do anything, because they are not in the position anymore. So it makes me very frustrated sometimes. Like I was the advisory council member of Speaker Vallone before, now Speaker Vallone is no longer with the city council. So whatever that we built up before is waste. So I think it’s like very difficult to have a good follow through thing to make the community better. So if you have to do something like this you have to have like a group of people, professionals to do it full time. It’s a full time job. It’s not something that we are doing it part time, can manage or can achieve for the community. Q: Did you find that politicians, while they were in office, were responsive to the needs of Chinatown? WING: It depends on the individuals. Some do, some don’t. Some politicians are good. Some politicians they are only looking for votes and money. Some politicians they really do the job. I would say it all depends on individuals. Q: I wonder if you could think of any specific examples of challenges that you faced, or that you saw in getting involved in politics and getting your voice heard that way? WING: Like what? Q: Any specific instances where there was something that you, or an organization that you were working for were trying to achieve and weren’t able to. WING: Yeah. Q: What were some of the obstacles? What was hard about it? WING: We had a hearing in City Council about the garment industry, about five years ago. I was involved. As a matter of fact, I was one of the speakers. Our executive director, me, and president at Brooklyn Apparel Association, a good friend of ours. We had a hearing at City Council, talking about the garment industry effecting the economy, and everything, to the community. And we make this arrangement through a city councilman, Jerome O’Donovan. He was the councilman from Staten Island, and he used to be committee chair of economic development for the city council; that’s why we want him to do something for us, which, he is a very responsive person, that he respond to us, and he arrange a hearing for us. We appreciate that. And I don’t know whether it will help to other government officials to understand more of what we say, but at least we did something. This is one of the major things that we achieved. Q: Can you think of any instances where you weren’t able to achieve what you were trying to do, or you weren’t able to get a response from politicians? WING: This is not, one or two politicians can help. This is like, something that I think the decision by the top country people, like, maybe the congressman, or maybe the senators, that they make all these decisions. So whatever that we said, or whatever that we told them during the hearing, they just used it as a record. And, you know, the people that make the decision when they look at it, they may only not agree with what we have been saying to them, so I don’t know whether it helps or not, but at least we did something to get their attentions----that’s all we want to do, that’s all. I know it’s difficult to get their attention, but at least we did something right. Q: And when was it that you did that? WING: About five years ago, at City Council. Q: What do you think the future of the garment industry in Chinatown holds? WING: There is no future in this industry at all. What I mean is, because there is no comparison between the labor price in this country and the labor price in all the South American, Caribbean, Asian countries. We cannot compete with them. There will be less and less people working in the industry, domestically. There will be more and more people working for importers. So, I would say this is like a sunset industry. There will be still some people staying in the business. As I said before, the reason why they stay is because they need people to do domestically for some quick turn-around goods. So, maybe five percent of what we have right now. Q: I know that the garment industry has been for a long time sort of the backbone of the Chinatown economy. What do you think will fill that void, what do you think will happen to Chinatown? How’s it going to change? WING: Well, Chinese people are very flexible. They have the garment industry, they work for the garment industry. If the garment industry’s gone, they will do something else. I don’t see any problem. But the only thing is, they need some---in transition state, they need some help from the government, to, let’s say, as I said, like the other professions, they need some kind of a training in order to get the license or whatever to go to the other professions. I think, we will survive, but it will be better for them to survive if the government can give them a little bit of help. Q: What other kinds of help do you think the government might be able to give, besides training? WING: Create more jobs, you know. Let’s say, if there are some other industry that they need to help from the government, help them. For example, the tourist industry. This is one of the main sources of income for the whole community. So, give them a little bit of help. Give them a little promotion. I think, you know, if you have more tourists come to New York, we pay more tax to the government, so it’s like, it’s not a one-way street, it’s a two-way street. The government will make something, and the people will make something, so I think it’s a good idea. Q: We were talking a little bit before about patriotism, and what it means to be patriotic, to you, and I’m curious, as an immigrant, during a time when immigration sort of had a bad name, or there were a lot of changes in immigration policy in the United States, making it harder for people to come here, did you feel that any of those public sentiments impacted on you, personally? WING: Oh, yeah. Even though I’m a citizen, I think we are like a secondary citizen. We are not like the same level of a citizen as those people that originated in this country, or they were born in this country, because we are naturalized. At least, from what I think is our education, from Chinese education, telling us that if the country did something to you, you have to be, you know, good to the country. I’ve been getting an education from this country, and I think I’ve learned a lot and I got a lot from this country, I need to pay back to the country. That’s what I think patriotism is. Q: Did you ever feel, sort of, less welcome after September 11, when people were feeling---I think America felt a little bit more closed right after that, to some people. Did you feel that at all? WING: Yes. They are more---closer than before, and people are like more willing to help each other than before. Especially right after 9/11. The NYPD people, they are much, much nicer than before. I had a feeling, they don’t just give out summons and like that. They will let you go, sometimes. It’s like a thing, a feeling and environment that you never had here before. Never! At that time, it’s like people are very willing to help each other. People can do whatever people want. There is no boundaries between ethnic groups. At that time, it’s like one of the best times, in terms of human relationships. Q: How about since then, has that changed at all? WING: Changed back to the before 9/11 environment. Well, at least we know that all human beings can do something like what I said before. It’s not something that they were born to that. Q: Have you ever thought about running for public office? For elected office? WING: I don’t think I’m qualified for that. It’s good to give a lot of advices or a lot of my opinion to the elected officials. I don’t think I can be one of the officials to run the---you know, I’m not interested in that. Q: Have you ever supported particular campaigns, or particular---? WING: A few. We supported quite a few City Councilmen. We support (Governor George E.) Pataki when he, second term, when he ran for the governor, we support councilwoman Kathryn Freed our local councilwoman, when she ran for councilwoman, and when she ran for, what was the position, I forgot---public advocate. She lost. This time, she ran for one of the judges. I don’t know whether she won or not, but I vote for her. I believe she won. Another one is Jerome O’Donovan. We supported him financially, because we are not in the district, and we supported Mark Green, when he ran for mayor. What else? We supported (Rudolph W.) Giuliani, and we supported (David Norman) Dinkins. Q: When you say, “we” who are you talking about? WING: Our association. Q: The Garment Manufacturers Association? WING: Yes. Because I am not doing those jobs as an individual. We did it as a group of people. Q: I remember you saying before that you had had some experience as part of the Garment Manufacturers Association in talking to politicians and deciding who to support and trying to let them know what your concerns were. Could you talk a little bit about those experiences now? WING: Yes. When, I believe it was in 1986, was it ‘80? That’s the term that Dinkins running for the mayor position. There is another gentleman, he was the head of the MTA (Metropolitan Transportation Authority) before---I forgot his name. We supported him to run for the mayor. But he lost in the primary. The reason why we supported him is---ah, I remember his name: Dick Ratrich. Richard Ratrich. He ran for the position, our whole association supported him. He is a person that nobody know him at that time. But he was the head of the MTA before, commissioner of the MTA. We don’t know why we support him, because our president before, the former president, he said he is a guy that can help our community, he can help the voice of our community, if elected as a mayor, he will help us, that’s what he said. At that time, I’m just like a new guy, in the political---I don’t know what I’m doing. But we supported him anyway. And, he lost but we had a very good experience, we know that if we want to support somebody, we have to be in a group, not as an individual. That’s the experience that we had. It was very successful, though, even though we lost. Q: In what way was it successful? WING: We had fundraising for him, and like over 800 people turn out. Which is very good. That means, we had our ability to arouse the attention of the community, which is one of the things that we learned at that fundraising. And from then on, we know better how to do a fundraising, and how to choose candidates to support. Q: What do you think that the government could do right now to support the garment industry? WING: It’s difficult. Because they already did something that cannot be changed. It’s like a one-way street. You cannot go back. For example, the government had the NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement, they already have that, that hurt our industry. They have, what they call the 806-807 agreement, it’s between the Caribbean and this country. It’s cut in this country and make over there. So it’s also had a very bad impact to our industry. So something like that they already did, and they already had this kind of agreement with a lot of countries. In return they have some other trade with them, for high-tech or for computers or whatever. But, I think if they want to help this industry, right now I think they have to at least give some percentage back to the people to do in this country. So that they can have better employment for a lot of people. This industry helps employ, when they are in peak time, over a million people in the city. Directly and indirectly related to the industry. Over a million people. Right now, maybe a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand? A lot less than before. Many big manufacturers, they went out of business. They were very, very, big before, but they are nobody now. It’s sad, but that’s the way history---it’s like a history. That’s the trend, of the history Some industry goes down, some industry goes up, you know. Q: I’m trying to think if there’s anything else we haven’t touched on. Is there anything that you would like to add? WING: Just now you said how the government can help industry. We are not asking for a lot, we are asking for maybe five percent. If there is five percent, there will be enough for a lot of employment. Q: A five percent increase in---? WING: Not increase, maintain five percent of the, let’s say, a hundred percent for the import. A hundred percent, five percent. Bring it back to this country. Bring it back to New York. We will employ over a hundred thousand people. I’m serious. Q: I remember one thing that you had said before that I wanted to bring up again, about the fact that so many people in Chinatown can’t vote, or don’t vote, and how that’s one of the challenges. WING: There are a lot of people, as I said before, they work in Chinatown, but they don’t live here, so they don’t have rights to vote, maybe they have a right to vote in the place that they live. And a lot of people they registered to become a voter, but they don’t vote. I don’t know why. It’s probably because of the, the Chinese---historically we do not want to deal with the government. The Chinese people are very conservative. They do not want to deal with the government because they thought when you are alive, you don’t want to deal with the government. When you are dead, you don’t want to go to hell. Something like that, you know. So they don’t want to deal with the government. They thought if you deal with the government, something bad must be happen to you. Either you go to jail or you go to trial, something like that. That’s why they thought it’s a different country than China. This is a democratic country, and they never have time to adjust to this system yet. So that’s why you need a little education, and I think maybe in a few more years they will be more and more alert about this, and they already got a lot of information from some of the associations, some of the non-profit associations, too, like the CCBA, like the Fujianese Association, they give them a lot of education about why vote, something like that. Q: Do you see the attitudes changing at all yet? WING: Not much, but gradually, I would think so, because the second generation will have a different point of view than the first generation. Q: One more question. I remember you said a little while ago that you thought the CCBA and the Fujianese Association were two organizations that might take the lead in organizing some development efforts in Chinatown. Do you think they could work together? WING: Yes, why not? Q: Do you see any challenges in their cooperating? WING: Maybe there are some conflicts between them politically, because one is supporting Taiwan and one is supporting the mainland China. Their political ideas are different. But if you are working for the benefits of the community, I think they have the same goal. I don’t see any problem. Q: Okay. Is there anything else you would like to add? WING: Basically, you have covered everything. Q: Well, thank you very much, for taking the time to come in and do this with us. WING: Thank you. I don’t know if I’ve been any help to you. Q: Oh, I think you’ve been a great deal of help. This will be very useful to a lot of people now and into the future. WING: I hope so. I don’t know--- (end of interview) Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 錄音帶002-1 A面 問﹕Ma先生﹐人們可能會在50年後看到或聽到我們今天的談話﹔請先簡單介紹一下您是誰以及您是哪裡人。 WING﹕好。 問﹕請先談一下您是什麼時候在什麼地方出生的﹐以及您的童年和家庭情況。 WING﹕我的名字是WING Ma。實際上﹐我的中文名字還有Guo Kua。我們習慣把姓放在前面---所以是Ma WING Guo﹐我的姓的意思是“馬”---“Ma”就是“馬”的意思﹐“WING”是“永遠”的意思﹐“Guo”是國家的意思。 我出生在中國一個非常貧窮的家庭。那時﹐我們﹐實際上是我的祖父母﹐是中國的農民。在我兩歲的時候﹐我們全家移居到了香港﹐所以﹐我實際上是在香港長大的。後來﹐在我十八歲的時候﹐我來美國讀大學。從此﹐我一直呆在美國---在我畢業之後﹐我一直生活工作在美國。 開始的時候﹐我是個工程師。後來﹐我開始自己做生意﹐我在這裡的唐人街開了家服裝製造公司﹐但四年前因為經濟不好被迫關閉﹐還有一個原因就是國內和國外的競爭---你知道﹐我們很難和他們競爭。所以﹐我不得不關閉﹐現在﹐我在為另外一家公司做事。 問﹕對不起﹐先打斷一下。您是否還記得您是怎樣從中國到香港的﹖ WING﹕噢﹐當時我才兩歲﹐我還有一點印象。在那個年代﹐國內很少有人能夠持有合法文件去香港。我們家辦了從大陸去香港的手續﹐但是當時香港政府不接受我們﹐理由是50年代末和60年代初有很多的大陸難民到香港﹐他們一時沒有辦法同時接收這麼多人﹐所以﹐我們全家只好申請難民身份才能進入香港。我就記得這麼多。 問﹕您的父母有沒有跟您講過他們當時為什麼決定要離開大陸﹖ WING﹕實際上﹐這多半是我母親的決定。我父親在我們去之前已經去過香港﹐然後他又去了菲律賓﹐他在那裡作廚師。我父親在中國以前也做過廚師﹐非常有經驗。所以﹐在六十年代初﹐菲律賓那邊有人把他請過去了。所以﹐我父親先到的香港﹐兩年之後﹐我母親﹐我的兩個姐姐和我一起到了香港。 問﹕您在香港生活得怎麼樣﹖ WING﹕香港是個好地方﹐我是在那裡長大的。我喜歡香港﹐但現在的問題是﹐我更加喜歡紐約。現在﹐我喜歡紐約多過我喜歡香港。香港是個旅遊觀光的好地方﹐但對於我個人來講不太適合居住。我更加喜歡紐約。 問﹕你當時住在什麼地方﹖ WING﹕在香港﹖香港也有房子﹐但沒有美國這麼多。因為那裡地方小﹐我們都住在大樓的單元裡。 問﹕地方大不大﹖ WING﹕很小。你如果住一間300平方尺的房間已經是非常幸運了。 問﹕您的意思是說您在香港有地方住就很幸運了。 WING﹕我母親是個很要強的女人。她差不多是一家之主﹐所有的事情都是她一個人做主﹐而且都是正確的決定﹐經過驗證都是正確的決定。（笑） 問﹕你們在香港住的時候﹐她有沒有做工﹖ WING﹕她有。因為當時她要照顧我的兩個妹妹和我﹐所以她沒有在外面做工﹐只是在家做一些能帶回家做的活。 問﹕她在家做些什麼樣的活﹖ WING﹕針線活。 問﹕您在香港上的是什麼樣的學校﹖ WING﹕我在香港上的是天主教會的學校﹐從小學一直到中學﹐是英國式的教學系統﹐不像我們這邊的一年級﹐二年級﹐三年級。那邊小學有六年﹐中學有五年﹐高中有兩年﹐然後是三年的大學。其實是一樣的﹐因為那邊大學要念三年﹐但是必須先念兩年高中﹐相當于十二﹐十三年級。 所以﹐讀完初中﹐又上了一年的高中之後﹐我便來到美國上大學。 問﹕您喜歡上學嗎﹖ WING﹕非常喜歡。我是個成勣優秀的學生。我的GPA有3.5﹐而且我還有工科碩士學位。我讀碩士時候的GPA是3.8。 問﹕您是天主教徒嗎﹖ WING﹕很幸運﹐或者是很不幸運﹐我不是。我本人沒有任何宗教信仰。我尊重所有的宗教信仰﹐但是我從來不信。我尊重宗教信仰是因為信仰是好的事情。 問﹕那麼﹐您在香港長大時有什麼娛樂嗎﹖您在那兒的生活怎麼樣﹖ WING﹕你是問我在香港的時候﹖ 問﹕是的。 WING﹕當時沒有像現在這麼多的消遣。我們沒有電子游戲﹐電視。如果在那時家裡有電視都算是很奢侈﹐很富裕了。當時﹐很少有人家裡有電視。所以﹐我們只是和同學在一起﹐有時是在一起做遊戲。當時在天主教會學校﹐我的很多同學都是從其他國家來的。所以﹐我們跟他們學英文﹐他們跟我們學中文﹐還算很開心。我喜歡那種知識的相互交流﹐是很有益的。 問﹕您在十幾歲時﹐您的社交活動如何﹖ WING﹕非常簡單。因為我家裡管得很嚴﹐我們不能自己出去在街上閑逛。所以﹐我大多待在家裡。即使出去﹐也要得到父母的同意。所以﹐生活還是比較單調的。我們通常都是出去看電影﹐打籃球﹐或是其他的體育運動。比較簡單﹐但也很有樂趣。 問﹕你們看什麼電影﹖ WING﹕有西片﹐也有中國電影。那時﹐在香港可以看到很多美國電影。 所以﹐在香港看了很多好電影後又在這裡的電視上看到﹐覺得還是蠻有意思的。 問﹕您當時是怎樣決定來美國上大學的﹖ WING﹕因為我當時中學畢業時香港只有兩所大學﹐而且你知道每年有多少學生中學畢業嗎﹖十萬多﹐而兩所大學也不過招收兩千左右的學生。這兩千多學生不光是香港本地的﹐還包括外國留學生。所以﹐差不多是十萬多個學生競爭一千個位置﹐比例還不到百分之一。所以﹐我根本就沒有希望﹐這就是為什麼我來美國讀大學的原因。 問﹕我記得您剛才提過您父親在菲律賓做廚師。你們在香港住的時候﹐他有沒有過來跟你們一起住﹖ WING﹕有。我父親在那邊干了差不多有十個月﹐然後休假來到香港呆了兩個月﹐以後每年都是如此。 問﹕我記得您在上次採訪時講過您八歲的時候才第一次見過他。 WING﹕是的。因為在我幾個月大的時候﹐我父親離開大陸去了香港﹐後來又去了菲律賓。當我們到香港的時候﹐他在菲律賓﹐所以我直到八歲才見到他。他第一次從菲律賓回到香港差不多是1964或65年﹐當時我只有八歲﹐也許還不到八歲。那是我第一次見到我父親。 問﹕您見到他時的情景是什麼樣的﹖ WING﹕非常激動。當時是在香港機場﹐現在我聽說他們有一個更大的機場﹐當時就好像是在做夢。那時﹐對於中國家庭來講﹐家裡父母﹐尤其是父親﹐在國外做工是很普遍的。當時在大陸謀生是很艱難的﹐ 所以通常是父親在國外﹐比如香港或是其他東南亞國家打工﹐我們留在大陸﹐那時東南亞國家的經濟狀況比中國好。所以﹐他們在國外工作﹐然後把錢寄回中國。這在當時是非常非常普遍的。但後來我們到了香港能夠彼此見面﹐所以關係也更加親密了。我們算是很幸運的﹐但是很多人都不是﹐他們不像我們﹐他們可能很多年都不能見到他們的父親。這是很有可能的。 問﹕當時您和您的父親第一次見面後﹐他又要回菲律賓﹐您的感覺如何﹖ WING﹕你指的是我父親﹖當時我知道他十個月或十二個月後還能回來﹐所以還算是有指望﹐比起跟他相隔八年後第一次見面還算好多了。 問﹕當您準備來美國上學之前﹐您對您在這邊的生活有什麼期望﹖ WING﹕我知道這邊的生活不會太容易﹐而且我對此也有準備。我知道去一個新的環境﹐一個新的地方﹐一切要重新開始--這不會太輕鬆﹐但是我還算應付得可以。另外一方面﹐我的家教比較嚴﹐我父母不允許我做這個那個。儘管我家不是天主教家庭﹐一些中國式的教育方式從某些角度來看還是很好的。我並不是說他們是百分之百的正確﹐但至少我受了那些思想的影響。現在我又用同樣的方式來管教我的下一代。我不知道他們是否接受我的方式﹐但這些都是我從父母那裡學到的。 問﹕您現在有什麼地方跟您父母做的不同嗎﹖ WING﹕有﹐因為現在的孩子跟以前不一樣﹐時代也不一樣了﹐跟我們以前有很大的不同。他們比我們有更多的自由﹐比如有些事情我們父母能夠講﹐但我們不能講。現在的孩子就沒有這些限制﹐他們可以對我們說不。不過﹐我的頭腦也很開放﹐我不像我的父母那麼嚴厲﹐但我還是想讓他們知道很多中國式的教育方式和管教孩子的方法比西方好。但是﹐我並不是說這麼多代人傳下來的方式方法是百分之百的正確﹐或被驗證是正確的。 我想他們只是接受了一部分﹐另外一些他們會覺得很可笑﹐我想他們是這樣想的。（笑） 問﹕您能給我們舉一些中國式管教孩子方法的例子嗎﹖ WING﹕我們有體罰﹐我知道這在美國是不允許的。我們打孩子﹐我們經常用尺子等打他們屁股。但是﹐我們總是儘量不這麼做﹐因為我們也知道這樣做不好﹐我本人也是這麼認為﹐但至少我們必須要讓他們知道以前有這種管教孩子的懲罰方式。但他們覺得這是很可笑的﹐而且在美國我們是不能這樣做的。所以﹐我只是想說有時有必要用類似的方式讓孩子們懂得些規章制度。 問﹕有沒有什麼其他的方式﹖您能再舉些其他的例子嗎﹖ WING﹕我們教育他們要尊重長輩﹐父母﹐祖父母﹐不光是家裡人﹐還包括外人。我個人認為美國的教育方式裡沒有這些道德方面的內容﹐跟我們從前不一樣。他們只是教授一些書本上的知識﹐比如計算機﹐數學等﹐僅此而已。他們不教授怎樣在社會上生存﹐怎樣和別人相處﹐打交道等。我認為他們在這些方面沒有我們受的教育多。 問﹕我想問一下﹐您在中學畢業之後決定來這邊讀書的時候﹐有沒有考慮過其他的選擇﹖ WING﹕沒有。我當時有很強烈的願望要來美國讀書﹐只有這麼一條路---單行路。我從來沒有考慮過其他的選擇﹐因為我喜歡受教育﹐而且我想來美國。在我考慮的所有國家中﹐包括澳大利亞﹐新西蘭﹐英國﹐加拿大﹐我選擇了美國﹐我更喜歡美國。 問﹕為什麼﹖ WING﹕我也不知道。我當時總有一種感覺認為美國的教育比其他的國家好﹐我從報紙上看到很多諾貝爾獎獲得者都是美國人﹐所以我受到報紙上那些文章的影響比較大。 問﹕您還記不記得其他什麼事情使您覺得美國的生活會更適合您﹖ WING﹕有﹐我剛提到我家裡的管教很嚴﹐我當時有十幾歲﹐我需要自由﹐我嚮往自由。我想嘗試一下美國的自由﹐現在我在這邊生活了很多年﹐我知道自由是個好事情﹐但你必須正確運用﹐不能夠濫用﹐但那是另外一個話題。我當時只是想離開家裡人﹐想獲得自由。 問﹕您來這裡時有沒有濫用自由呢﹖ WING﹕沒有﹐絕對沒有。我是個非常自斂的人。話一出口﹐我一定會做到。如果我答應別人什麼事情﹐我也一定會照做﹐這也許是我的家庭教育。 問﹕您能否談一下您初次來這裡時的第一印象嗎﹖ WING﹕第一印象﹖ 問﹕您來這裡的第一天。 WING﹕噢﹐來這裡的第一天。當時我住在唐人街﹐這裡同我在電視和報紙上看到的美國不一樣﹐以前覺得美國有很多高樓大廈﹐是個非常先進的國家。所以不懂得為什麼這裡的樓房這麼舊﹐在香港都很少見到這麼舊的樓房。我們那裡的生活條件比這裡很多的樓房和房間都好﹐這同我在報紙和電視上看到的截然不同﹐所以我初次來這裡時的印象不是非常好。 但後來我才得知這是因為城市規劃的需要﹐政府對很多的事情都有所限制﹐所以才會有今天的這個樣子。但這在香港卻不同﹐二十年以上的樓房都要被推倒﹐再在原有的地方建高樓﹐以容納更多的人居住﹐所以很多香港的樓房都比這裡的新。 問﹕您剛到這裡的時候有沒有什麼認識人﹖ WING﹕當時我姐姐在這裡。我來之後和我姐姐住了幾個月﹐然後就搬到新澤西州了﹐因為我在那裡上學。 問﹕那您姐姐和她的家人朋友有沒有給您任何在這邊謀生的建議﹖您還記不記得您初次來這裡時別人是怎樣談唐人街或美國生活的﹖ WING﹕我第一次來美國時是1976年﹐當時這裡沒有像現在這麼多中國人﹐現在差不多是76年的十倍﹐所以當時沒有現在這麼熱鬧﹐人也比現在少﹐跟現在大不一樣。我是說﹐不像香港﹐現在跟香港百分之九十差不多。以前只是唐人街﹐的確就是“唐人的街”。當時我看到的很多事情跟香港比起來是很滑稽的。現在很多人還是老樣子﹐這和我在香港見識的不一樣﹐所以覺得很可笑。 問﹕比如﹖ WING﹕這裡的碗很厚。我們吃米飯的碗都是很漂亮的﹐但這裡的碗很厚﹐非常美國化。很多日常用品都跟我們在香港用的不一樣。 問﹕您的學校生活怎麼樣﹖ WING﹕比較辛苦。我一邊打工一邊讀書﹐所以比較辛苦。但就像我剛才所講﹐我對自己要求比較嚴格﹐所以我花了三年半就完成了學業。一點問題都沒有。 問﹕您父母對您來美國有什麼看法﹖ WING﹕當我告訴他們我要來美國时﹐他們同意了﹐他們同意我來美國。 問﹕您來這裡之後有沒有和他們保持聯繫﹖ WING﹕有。 問﹕您和他們怎麼聯繫﹖ WING﹕我寫信給他們。當時﹐電話沒有像現在這麼普及﹐打國際長途是很貴的﹐差不多是每分鐘三美元﹐很貴的。所以﹐我只在春節的時候才給我父母打電話﹐每年打一次﹐因為電話太貴了。我通常是寫信。 問﹕您為什麼選學工科﹖ WING﹕我是學理工科的。在香港﹐當你讀到三﹐四年級﹐相當于這裡十年級的時候﹐你必須選擇是學文還是學理。我選了理科﹐就這樣我就學了工科。 問﹕您喜歡您的專業嗎﹖ WING﹕噢﹐非常喜歡。我喜歡工科﹐我喜歡上工科課。我曾做過機械工程師﹐在我開自己的公司之前﹐我做了五年的機械工程師。 問﹕看來您上學的時候還是很忙的。如果有業余時間﹐您都做些什麼﹖ WING﹕我沒有太多的業余時間。在空閑的時候﹐我也是在學習﹐工作﹐我非常喜歡我的校園生活。儘管辛苦﹐但我覺得還是蠻有收穫的﹐因為我有了學位﹐又找著了工作﹐還算比較順利。 問﹕您在這邊的生活﹐有沒有什麼使您吃驚或是意想不到的事情嗎﹖ WING﹕比如﹖ 問﹕任何事情﹐比如美國人或學校﹖ WING﹕我在學校沒有什麼覺得不適應的。實際上﹐大學的前兩年對於我來講並不困難﹐因為有很多課程我都在香港學過。第三年我們開始上專業課﹐那是我最辛苦的一年﹐三年級的時候我最辛苦。四年級就好很多﹐因為很多專業課只是把以前學過的知識應用在實驗室裡。所以大三最辛苦﹐很多課程都是我以前沒有接觸過的﹐機械工程的課程﹐那年我花了很多時間學習。 除此之外﹐沒有什麼特別的﹐沒有什麼覺得吃驚的。但關於我的公司﹐使我吃驚的是政府不支持這個產業。我認為他們背叛了這個產業﹐因為他們利用我們的產業來換取其他國家的其他產業或產品﹐好像他們向其他國家輸出高科技然後再進口服裝﹐這有利也有弊。 問﹕您已經結婚了﹐是不是﹖ WING﹕是的。 問﹕您和您的太太是怎麼認識的﹖ WING﹕我和我太太是在香港認識的﹐她是我姐夫的外甥女。所以﹐我們在香港就認識。 當她來美國的時候﹐我們又見面了﹐後來就結了婚。 問﹕您在她來之前有沒有和她一直保持聯繫﹖ WING﹕很少聯繫﹐因為我很忙﹐沒有時間。我只給她寫過三封信﹐僅此而已。 問﹕她來這裡時有沒有想到要和您結婚﹐或您有沒有... WING﹕沒有。她只是剛好到這裡﹐然後我們見了面﹐我們當時沒有想到要結婚。 問﹕她的哪些方面讓你決定跟她結婚﹖ WING﹕我太太是個非常堅強的女性。她很漂亮﹐人好﹐勤懇。當我們開公司時﹐我們一起干﹐她差不多是掌內﹐所以我才有時間管理一些對外的事務。 問﹕您在做工程師的時候主要做些什麼﹖ WING﹕工程設計﹐我在三家公司做過。第一家公司叫作CE-Lummus﹐在Bloomfiled 新澤西州。他們建造很多石油化工設備﹐我是在那個公司的機械工程部工作。我工作的第二家公司是搞機器設計的﹐設計焊接機器。我工作的第三家公司是生產過濾器的﹐他們製造很多的過濾器﹐是美國最大的過濾器廠家之一﹐叫作Pall Corporation﹐在長島。 問﹕您為什麼總是在換工作﹖ WING﹕在那時﹐你不換工作就漲不了薪水。你必須找一個薪水高的工作﹐如果你不換的話﹐薪水是不會提高的。公司每年提高的薪水沒有你換工作後的薪水多。只有你換了工作﹐薪水才會漲。 問﹕那您是在做了五年的工程師後才開始您自己的生意的﹖ WING﹕是的。 問﹕是什麼促使您做這個決定的﹖ WING﹕我在第三家公司做的時候﹐我被公司裁員裁掉了。我當時畢業時工程師還是比較搶手的。後來就不行了﹐很多工程公司都在裁員﹐我也是這樣被裁掉的。我當時被裁掉後大約失業有九個月。在那段時間﹐我開一輛黑色的出租車﹐當時他們叫轎車。我開出租車謀生﹐那是在我開公司之前。 問﹕您是怎樣---您能不能講一下那是一個什麼樣的公司嗎﹖ WING﹕是個服裝製造廠。我在唐人街開了一間工廠﹐剛開始時僱了有五﹐六十個工人。在我關閉公司之前﹐我僱了有一百多個工人。 問﹕您開公司的本錢是哪裡來的﹖ WING﹕我姐夫幫了我。他當時是做服裝生意的﹐他是1977年開始自己生意的。在我失業的時候﹐他說如果我想搞服裝他會幫我的。所以﹐他借給我錢開公司。 問﹕您當時做服裝生意的時候﹐市場怎麼樣﹖ WING﹕當時還比較容易。我說的比較容易是指當時還沒有太多國外的競爭﹐只是國內的市場。其實也不能說是全部﹐差不多有百分之九十五是國內﹐只有一小部份是從國外進口的。相比之下﹐現在百分之九十九都是進口﹐只有百分之一是國內生產的。也許我有些誇張﹐但大致是這種狀況--非常接近。 問﹕你們主要是生產什麼的﹖ WING﹕我們生產女裝﹐運動裝﹐裙子﹐褲子。我們把產品賣給Sears﹐JC Penny﹐Wal-Mart﹐Kmart﹐很多大的連鎖店。現在這些大的連鎖店都從國外進口服裝。所以﹐我們國內失去了很多生意。 問﹕找工人是不是很困難﹖ WING﹕開始的時候是。我剛剛開始的時候﹐大概是85年﹐工人很難找﹐因為新移民不多。在90年代﹐從90年代開始﹐有很多從中國﹐香港和很多東南亞來的新移民﹐然後工人才比較好找。我說工人比較好找不是指好的工人容易找﹐好的工人現在還是比較難找。還好﹐當我公司關閉的時候﹐大約有百分之八十的工人還想跟我干﹐很多人給我干了十多年。他們對我非常好﹐我相信我對他們也不錯。（笑）我們的關係還是很好的﹐否則﹐他們不會跟我這麼多年的。 問﹕您能跟我講一下那些給您打工的人嗎﹖ WING﹕大多是女工﹐因為做的是針線活。 WING﹕有一些男工是做體力活的﹐這就是我太太掌內的原因。女人和女人之間溝通還是比較容易的﹐是不是﹖所以我是負責在外面拉生意。 問﹕您的工人有沒有成立工會﹖ WING﹕有。我們實際上是個工會組織﹐所有的工人都是工會成員。我們隸屬于﹐當時是叫ILGWU---International Ladies Garment Workers Union。現在叫UNITE﹐Local 23-25。 問﹕您辦廠期間有沒有什麼麻煩﹐勞工方面的麻煩﹖ WING﹕內部沒有﹐但是外部有。倒不是因為我的工人﹐是一些外部的問題﹐比如工會的問題。一些外來的影響﹐倒不是我們自己的問題﹐我們從來沒有什麼問題。大多時候我有足夠的活給我的工人做﹐我給的工資高﹐也準時付﹐所以都沒有什麼問題﹐這也就是為什麼他們跟我這麼多年的原因。其他很多衣廠﹐倒不是因為他們做的不好﹐只是他們有時不能夠完善一些手續和落實一些事情﹐所以很多工人因此不是十分滿意。所以我說﹐百分之九十九在於公司的管理。如果公司管理沒有問題﹐一切都不會有太大的問題﹐這跟是不是有工會沒有太大的關係。 問﹕您覺得有哪些因素促使您百分之八十的工人都會留下來給您做事﹖ WING﹕穩定。我總是有固定的任務交給他們做﹐而且我給他們發的工資也很穩定。我不是這個星期發一個數﹐下個星期發一個數﹐一切都是很穩定的。所以﹐如果有一個好的制度的話﹐大家都會遵守的。這是我的看法。 問﹕您發的工資的標準大致是怎麼樣的﹖您還記不記得﹐在八十年代剛開廠的時候﹐您的工人的工資是多少﹖ WING﹕讓我想一下。八五年那陣兒應該是差不多三美金﹐我記不得準確的數字。後來是四塊多﹐現在是六塊九或七塊錢左右。我說的也不一定準確﹐我的工廠已經關閉有四年了。現在差不多是一小時七美金。這些都是工會定的標準﹐聯邦的標準是一小時5.15美金﹐紐約州的標準是4.75美金。 問﹕那就是說﹐您不是按件計的﹐而是按小時計的工錢﹖ WING﹕我們是按件計﹐然後再將件數換算成小時﹐所以他們的工資會高一些。 問﹕您為什麼最後要關閉公司呢﹖ WING﹕我競爭不過那些進口商。讓我舉個例子﹐我如果要在這邊做一條這樣的褲子的話﹐單是人工就要差不多5美金。如果你從中國﹐斯裡蘭卡﹐印度﹐或其他東南亞國家進口一條褲子﹐5美金會包括所有的成本﹐包括材料的費用。這樣我就很難和他們競爭了。我們這邊單單是支付工人的工資就要5美金﹐所以我跟他們競爭不了。現在還有一小部份廠家還能夠勉強經營是因為我們這邊有一個所謂的“迅速反應”的系統。我們可以做一些國外廠家做不到的事情﹐時間。我們可以在較短的時間內完成購買商需要的產品﹐但這是外國廠家做不到的。比如﹐我們可以在兩三個星期﹐以至于一個星期內完成任務。你如果找國外的廠商﹐差不多需要三個月。所以﹐這是我們唯一的優勢。這也就是為什麼現在還有一些國內廠家的原因。 問﹕您曾是服裝製造商協會的主席(the Garment Manufacturers Association)﹖ WING﹕是的。 問﹕曾經當過兩次﹖ WING﹕是兩次。 問﹕您能談一下嗎﹖ WING﹕那是個廠商的協會﹐會員其實都是工廠的老闆。我們每年舉行一次年會﹐像是每年一次的會餐或宴會﹐以便相互交換一下信息。而且我們每個月還要開會﹐我遲些時候也要去開會。他們還讓我做委員會的成員﹐因為他們需要我繼續為協會出些力﹐我也因此感激他們。 我們每年還要舉行一次募捐﹐其實也不是募捐﹐只是需要籌集一些資金以便維持協會的一些正常開支。我們並沒有打算因此賺錢﹐但每年大家參與的情況還是蠻不錯的。儘管現在的經濟不好﹐我們還是在維持這個協會﹐因為這是我們當地唯一一個服裝業的團體。從前也有過一些﹐但後來也就沒有了。我們的協會從成立時到現在已經有45年了。 問﹕您作為主席主要負責些什麼事情﹖您的職責有哪些﹖ WING﹕我們每三年同工會商討一次合同。我們儘量為我們的會員爭取一些利益﹐同時也會顧及工人的利益。這聽起來好像很矛盾﹐但其實不然。因為我們每天都要面對我們的員工﹐儘管他們是工會成員﹐我們希望他們能夠從工會那裡獲得最大的利益。除了我做主席之外﹐我們還有很多委員會成員﹐然後我們組成一個談判小組﹐負責每三年與工會商討一次合同。還有﹐我們負責與其他一些協會或其他州聯絡﹐以便把一些資訊帶到紐約。我們差不多就做這些。 問﹕您一般是怎麼做的﹖ WING﹕有大部分是跟服裝業務發展公司合作﹐他們在Centre Street都有辦事處。我們與他們的聯繫比較密切﹐雖然我們與工會有合同﹐我們也與他們密切合作﹐儘量攔一些外州的業務﹐或是國外的業務。儘管這有一些幫助﹐但是幫助不大﹐因為關鍵還是要看價格---我們還是競爭不過國外的廠商。但至少他們有時還會向我們訂貨﹐如果他們需要趕時間的話﹐他們都會找我們的﹐不會把生意送到別處去。 問﹕您在做服裝製造商協會(the Garment Manufacturers Association)主席時和工會主要談判些什麼事項﹖ WING﹕主要是工人福利方面的問題---最重要的是醫療保險問題﹐因為每個工會成員﹐即衣工的職工﹐都需要醫療保險。而且這些費用是越來越高﹐很多工人都支付不起。現在﹐很多工人都要支付一部分費用﹐這對他們來講是很大的負擔。所以﹐在我做協會主席的時候﹐我想說服工會不讓工人支付這筆費用﹐但是沒有什麼效果。現在他們想讓衣工出這筆錢﹐這對廠商也不公平﹐因為這是一項很大的開支﹐一個工人每月差不多是兩百多塊錢﹐實在是太貴了。 問﹕您的衣工具體在什麼位置﹖ WING﹕離這兒不遠﹐在Mott Street。現在那棟樓已經改建成醫院了﹐不是全部﹐只有一半被改建了。那棟樓其實是兩棟樓﹐但他們在很多年前把牆打通了﹐所以就成了一棟很大的樓﹐每層都有一萬多平方英呎。我當時是在三樓。現在他們把一半的空間改建成辦公樓﹐另外一半還是服裝製造廠房。我想他們沒有再簽長期合同把地方租出去﹐只是每個月現出租的。 問﹕當您關閉衣廠時﹐廠裡的那些工人怎麼樣﹖他們的反應如何﹖ WING﹕一些工人哭了。他們沒有想到我會關閉衣廠﹐因為他們都是有非常穩定的活做。這麼多年來﹐他們的收入也是很穩定的。他們沒有想到要到其他地方工作。所以﹐這對很多工人來講也是一段艱難的時期。 問﹕您知不知道他們後來找到什麼樣的工作了嗎﹖ WING﹕後來﹐他們有些去其他衣廠做了﹐有些改了行﹐做了類似于醫務助理的工作等。我也不知道準確的稱呼是什麼﹐他們必須接受CPC（中美規劃處Chinese-American Planning Council）或人力部門(Manpower)的培訓才能合格上崗。 問﹕護士﹖ WING﹕差不多吧﹐家庭護理什麼的﹐幫助照顧老人。 問﹕您有沒有再和他們見面﹖ WING﹕有。甚至現在我和很多以前的工人都有在街上碰到﹐而且他們都還想讓我重新開廠﹐但我跟他們講我不會了。倒不是因為我自己的原因﹐而是整個兒的經濟環境﹐因為競爭﹐我們很難和國外競爭。所以﹐我不會再開廠的。 問﹕您為什麼覺得應該在那個時候關閉衣廠呢﹖ WING﹕在關閉衣廠的時候﹐我其實還有盈利。我還沒有虧本﹐但是我覺得我如果想繼續做下去的話﹐我必須作些財務預期規劃﹐發現可能我再做六個月就要虧本了。所以﹐我知道如果再這樣繼續下去﹐再過六個月我會損失很多錢的。所以﹐我寧可當時關閉﹐也不想再拖六個月。我覺得我還是做了個明智的決定。現在﹐很多人﹐很多衣廠的老闆都在抱怨﹐倒不是因為他們沒有訂單。有的時候﹐他們有活做﹐但找不到工人﹔有的時候﹐有工人﹐但沒有活做。這是很難調整的。 問﹕您當時關閉衣廠後都有什麼選擇﹖ WING﹕我想做別的生意﹐但我關閉衣廠的時候是1999年﹐當時的經濟是在走下坡路。當時﹐整體的經濟形勢都不好﹐我也沒有決定要做些什麼﹐所以我在家呆了兩年多﹐什麼也沒有做。我只是在考慮下一步要怎樣﹐哪一行比較適合我。所以﹐大概是一年半﹐兩年前﹐我又開始工作了﹐但沒有自己開廠。我現在在給別人打工﹐是酒業。 問﹕您是做什麼的﹖ WING﹕我是做分銷商的銷售代理﹐但現在我在為一個供應商做事。 問﹕您為什麼選擇這份工作﹖ WING﹕我喜歡酒﹐尤其是法國白蘭地酒。因此﹐我認識很多的業中人士。他們就給我介紹了一些職位。我覺得這個行業還是很有意思的。 問﹕您同社區在很多方面都有緊密的聯繫﹐您剛剛提到過在服裝製造商協會(the Garment Manufacturing Association)擔任職務。您能否談一下您做過的其他的事情嗎﹖ WING﹕當Peter Vallone議長還是紐約市議員的時候﹐我是他亞美顧問理事會(the Asian American Advisory Council)的成員。我的職責是將社區的一些情況反映到市議會﹐ 告訴他們我們希望市議會做些什麼﹐我們需要些什麼﹐以及我們需要市裡做些什麼。這是我在任協會主席期間擔任的眾多職務之一。我湊巧知道美中華人博物館(the Museum of Chinese in the Americas)﹐我認為這個博物館比較有教育意義﹐有助于我們的下一代了解中國的文化﹐所以﹐我也在支持這個博物館。 問﹕您在Peter Vallone的Asian American Advisory Committee任職的時候﹐主要處理些什麼事務﹖您都向他反映了什麼情況﹖ WING﹕我記得當時我們要向市里反映些街道清潔的問題和停車計時器的問題﹐因為唐人街的很多地方都不能停車﹐於是很多人和遊客不願意來唐人街。所以﹐我們要求政府多提供些停車場地﹐多安排人手指揮交通﹐以便吸引更多的人來這裡﹐來支持唐人街的餐飲業和其他產業的發展。大概就是如此﹐大部份都是有關社區的議題。 問﹕那您的努力是不是很有效果﹖ WING﹕基本上是﹐還不錯。比如﹐1995年之前﹐人們可以在Canal Street停車﹐以至于造成交通堵塞。現在基本上已經沒有了﹐現在Canal Street不准停車﹐即使在七點之後。這樣就對了﹐因為這樣很多交通流量可以暢通無阻﹐也避免了污染整個兒社區的環境。 問﹕您也是社區委員會(Community Board)的成員﹐是不是﹖ WING﹕我記得那是在1993年﹐我在第三社區委員會(Community Board)做了差不多兩年。 問﹕您那段經歷怎麼樣﹖ WING﹕一些小商販給我們帶來一些麻煩﹐那些在街上賣紀念品的小商販。我們想把他們組織起來﹐安排在Roosevel Park﹐ 應該是Roosevel Park。但是﹐不是非常有效﹐因為他們只在那裡呆了幾個月﹐後來就又重新找地方了。我覺得做這個職務需要很多關係﹐所以就退出了。我跟他們講過要怎樣做﹐我希望他們能夠按照我的方式去做﹐但我後來發現這並不是那麼簡單。不是說我們說了後他們就會照辦﹐這不是我能夠控制的﹐所以我就辭職了﹐沒有再繼續做委員。 問﹕2001年9月11日那天您在哪裡﹖您是怎樣知道發生的一切的﹖ WING﹕我在家裡。那天早晨﹐我正準備開車去上班。在我臨走之前﹐我姐姐打電話給我。她說﹕“有架飛機撞到世貿中心(World Trade Center)了。”我說﹕“什麼﹖”然後我打開了電視﹐我看到姐妹塔中的被撞的一座已經開始冒煙了。在我打開電視的幾分鐘之後﹐另外一架飛機也撞了上去。當時就好像在看電影﹐只不過這是真的。這對我的打擊很大﹐因為World Trade Center是我們城市的標誌。我像個紐約人﹐我喜歡紐約。所以﹐這簡直是難以置信﹐我都差不多哭了﹐實在是難以接受。在那之後﹐我在家裡呆了兩天看電視﹐沒有上班。就好像人不知道在做些什麼﹐非常非常沮喪。 問﹕您在看到這些事情發生的時候﹐您有沒有想到唐人街的什麼﹖ WING﹕我做的第一件事是打電話給很多唐人街的朋友﹐告訴他們儘快離開﹐因為我的很多朋友都在唐人街做事﹐很多朋友都在唐人街有生意。我叫他們不要待在那裡﹐趕快回家。我知道一旦這樣的事情發生了﹐肯定是出了什麼問題。還好﹐開始的時候電話還能夠打通。過了一會兒﹐電話就打不通了﹐只能用手機。後來﹐連手機也打不通了。所以﹐當時對于我來講就好像是世紀末日。非常無奈﹐也非常非常沮喪。很多朋友不能按時回家﹐他們只能在曼哈頓呆到第二天才能回家。唐人街也全部癱瘓了。不光是唐人街﹐整個曼哈頓﹐全紐約﹐乃至全國在那兩天都是無所適從。 問﹕您有了孩子﹐是不是﹖ WING﹕我有兩個孩子。 問﹕兩個孩子。您是怎樣向他們解釋發生的事情的﹖他們是怎麼知道的﹖ WING﹕他們是在學校知道的。我想學校那裡有電視﹐老師也跟他們講了。 問﹕他們有什麼反應﹖ WING﹕我也不知道他們怎麼想﹐但是我知道他們是很愛國的。 問﹕您指的愛國是什麼意思﹖ WING﹕熱愛這個國家﹖我的意思是說﹐我的兒子非常美國化﹐美國是他的一切。這對他們來講也是一個很大的打擊﹐因為他們也曾經看到過World Trade Center﹐也去過那裡﹐現在卻已不復存在了。所以我的孩子對此也是非常傷心的。 問﹕您是不是也愛國﹖ （磁帶中斷） 問﹕您提到您的孩子是很愛國的﹐或者說是個愛國者。那麼您呢﹖您愛國嗎﹖ WING﹕我認為我是愛國的。當我剛到這個國家的時候﹐所有事情對於我來講都是新鮮的﹐但時間久了﹐我在這裡也住了這麼多年﹐我自己感覺都已經融入這個國家了。我現在入了美國籍﹐所以我認為我是愛國的。但是﹐我不知道這個國家是否也是如此看待我的﹐我想應該不是。無論如何﹐我不知道。但是﹐就我本人來講﹐我認為我是非常愛國的。 問﹕您說您不知道這個國家是否認為您愛國是什麼意思﹖ WING﹕因為先前我提到過﹐美國是個移民國家。除了印第安人是本土人以外﹐所有人都是從其他國家移民來的﹐比如﹐愛爾蘭﹐蘇格蘭﹐英格蘭﹐或其他歐洲國家﹐亞洲國家﹐大家都是從不同的地方來的。但是﹐現在掌管這個國家的只是一小部份人﹐他們怎麼想就是怎麼樣。所以﹐我認為應由他們來評論你是否愛國﹐而不是我自己的看法。這就是我的意思。 問﹕911有沒有改變您對愛國的看法﹖ WING﹕它使我變得比以前更加愛國﹐因為那些恐怖分子不應該襲擊World Trade Center﹐這與那些無辜的受害者沒有任何關係。如果他們反對政府的一些作法﹐他們應該去找政府﹐而不是無辜的人民。所以我認為他們這樣做是非常非常錯誤的。 問﹕您在唐人街也有一些地產﹐對不對﹖ WING﹕是的。 問﹕您是怎樣開始介入地產業的﹖ WING﹕因為我想在多方面投資。當我在做服裝生意的時候﹐我已經開始在唐人街的房地產上投資。在當時﹐我沒有任何想法﹐只是想做些投資而已。我現在發現這是一個非常好的投資﹐因為所有的房地產在近兩三年都上漲了很多﹐尤其是2000年﹐形勢非常好。現在也還不錯﹐儘管不像一年前那樣好。就租金來講﹐我受到911的影響很大﹐因為很多房客都陸續搬走了﹐我的樓有二十多個月都沒有人租。後來﹐一點一點地﹐又有了一些新的房客。現在﹐我只租出了60%的地方。但是﹐我還需要更多的房客﹐我還需要付房地產稅﹐支付很多費用。我已向政府申請了一些資助﹐ 但只拿到六千美金﹐還不夠我一個月支付抵押貸款的費用。我每個月要支付大約一萬兩千美金的抵押貸款。 問﹕您是向哪裡申請資助的﹖ WING﹕我通過Williams Street的一個機構申請的﹐我忘了叫什麼名字。一共可以向兩家機構申請﹐一家在Williams﹐另外一家在Rector Street。我是通過Williams Street的那家機構申請的。 問﹕您是怎樣知道政府﹐或是其他機構﹐會提供一些幫助的﹖ WING﹕一些非盈利機構派發了一些小冊子﹐或是在電臺有廣播﹐在中文電臺都有。所以﹐我跟他們聯繫﹐發現我也有資格申請。於是﹐我就填了張申請表。但我沒想到我遭受二十多個月的損失卻只拿到了六千塊錢。 問﹕他們是怎樣計算的﹖ WING﹕他們說是我收入的百分之二﹐他們是按照這個數算的。 問﹕您當時在申請這些補助的時候﹐那個機構對您怎麼樣﹖那裡的人是不是很友好﹐很願意幫助您﹖還是說﹐辦這些手續很繁瑣﹖ WING﹕他們非常友好﹐非常願意幫助我。但問題是最後把補助發給誰﹐發多少﹐都不是由他們決定的﹐而是由另外一些人決定的。單是看這些申請表﹐你很難知道那些人是否是遭受損失了。這是我的看法。我跟他們講我因此損失了很多收入﹐但他們說我只是房東﹐不是做生意的。我認為他們這麼講不對﹐因為我是在做房地產生意﹐這也是生意﹐但他們說不是。所以﹐他們說只能給我我年收入的百分之二。他們就是這麼算的。 問﹕我需要換磁帶。 TAPE　002－2　SIDE 問﹕您剛纔提到911之後獲得一些補助。我有些好奇﹐您有沒有聽到您在唐人街的朋友﹐一些生意人﹐也得到了補助﹖ WING﹕聽到的不多﹐因為我也沒有太關注這些事情。但是我聽到一些在這裡住的居民得到的補助比我一個生意人多。我不知道他們是怎麼算的﹐到底能拿多少。我實在是不知道他們是如何計算的﹐比如在這段時期的營業損失。我們並沒有想多要﹐我們只是請求﹐比如說﹐再多給一些時間交房地產稅。我已經支付了﹐但是晚了兩個多星期。他們收了我大約兩百塊的利息﹐他們還收這個錢。倒不是說我不想付這個錢﹐只是我在那個時期比較困難。我沒有房客﹐我必須從其他地方把錢搞到﹐從我自己的腰包裡。因此我耽誤了一些時間﹐對於我來講﹐那段時期的確是困難時期。 現在就好很多了﹐因為我有了新的房客﹐一切又步入了正規。至少我不會再賠錢﹐現在剛好持平。但是﹐我必須彌補我二十多個月房屋空閑的損失﹐這是很困難的。我希望政府能夠為這個地區的業主做些事情。我是在Canal Street以南﹐是第二大受重創的地區。我不明白他們為什麼不能給我們﹐比如那些新房客﹐一些便利﹐因為我的新房客在這裡營業需要去Department of Building申請很多的執照﹐或者需要裝修﹐但是Department of Building都不給他們提供便利。我實在是不明白為什麼他們會這樣。那些房客給這個地區帶來很多生意﹐使這裡更加繁榮﹐但政府還是不通融---真不知道他們是怎麼考慮的﹖我想他們實在是太官僚了。 問﹕您以前曾為政府做事﹐比如﹐向政府反映社區的一些問題。您有沒有考慮過投訴﹐或試圖改變他們處理分配補助的方式﹖ WING﹕我覺得我個人做不了什麼。但我的確同很多非盈利組織的人員交涉過﹐但沒有什麼效果。我也只是跟他們提起過﹐我只是問他們如果有很多人都有我類似的情況我們該怎麼辦﹐沒有人能回復我。 問﹕您是跟誰談的﹖ WING﹕我跟CPC的人談過﹐那些地方性的非盈利機構。他們理應幫助這些當地的社區民眾。 問﹕在911之前﹐您都有哪些房客﹖ WING﹕在911之前﹐有一個房客是Pearl Paint﹐他們租我的樓作辦公室和倉庫。二樓和三樓是做服裝的﹐是衣廠。 問﹕現在呢﹖ WING﹕現在﹐一樓是餐館和酒吧﹐二樓是培訓中心。諷刺的是﹐這是在911之後人們接受再培訓的地方之一﹐這是政府要求的。三樓是一些藝術家﹐他們為一些大公司製作雕塑。 問﹕現在房租的水平同以前相比如何﹖ WING﹕和以前差不多﹐因為現在的形勢也不太好。如果我堅持收更多的租金的話﹐我的地方是租不出去的。所以﹐我減少了不少租金﹐只比以前稍多一些。但是﹐我還要給他們免很多租金﹐幾個月的租金。有的是六個月﹐有的是七個月﹐就是為了能讓他們留在這裡。你必須這麼做﹐否則對自己也沒有什麼好處。 問﹕那家餐館是什麼餐館﹖ WING﹕他們有三個合伙人﹐一個是印度人﹐一個是土耳其人﹐另外一個我也從來沒有見過﹐他在佛羅裡達﹐在做服裝進口生意。（笑）他們在這邊開了一家餐館和一間酒吧。因為這個地區﹐他們叫TreBeCa﹐比較適合那些年輕的專業人士消費﹐他們下了班可以來這裡﹐正好是酒吧優惠時間。所以﹐我認為這樣會使得這個地區再次繁榮起來。 因為在911之後﹐這裡就好像是一座死城﹐沒有人想來。現在﹐人們逐漸過來光顧這個地方﹐我都可以感覺到。在下班後﹐大約五點到七點鐘﹐很多人來酒吧喝酒或吃東西。這樣很好﹐你感覺到這裡的環境越來越好了。所以我認為Department of Housing應該給這些房客﹐不單單是我的﹐包括在這裡有生意的人﹐一些便利﹐不要給他們太多的限制。 問﹕您的樓在哪裡﹖ WING﹕什麼﹖ 問﹕那座樓在哪裡﹖ WING﹕在Walker街52號﹐Canal街以南兩個街口。（咳嗽） 問﹕要喝些水嗎﹖ WING﹕不用﹐也許是空氣的原因。 問﹕您覺得在911之後﹐政府或那些非盈利機構在哪些地方還可以做得更好來幫助唐人街的居民和這裡的生意﹖ WING﹕我不想冒犯任何人﹐但他們完全可以做得更好。基金其實是很多的﹐很多人也受到911的影響﹐但是那些基金沒有很好的落實下去。很多錢都是浪費了﹐很多錢沒有利用上﹐我也不知道是什麼原因﹐或是官僚主義什麼的﹐他們就是不想把錢派出去。所以﹐最後期限到了的時候﹐他們祇想倉促地把錢分出去﹐即使有的人並不符合條件。 像我本人的情況﹐我想我至少可以獲得些補償﹐或者補助﹐或是些貸款什麼的﹐以便我能夠度過難關﹐但是我什麼都沒得到。或者﹐只得到一些﹐但是還不夠我維持一個月的開銷的。所以﹐我認為﹐他們實在應該再做些具體實際的調查﹐而不是草率地審核一下就把錢分了出去﹐我認為這樣做是不正確的。而且我聽說他們很多時候還要把一些已分配下去的錢再追回來﹐這就說明他們一開始把錢分下去就是錯誤的。 問﹕第一步是把一些資助分配下去﹐這些錢都是用來重建紐約市的。如果您有了這些錢用來重建唐人街﹐您要怎樣做﹖ WING﹕為社區﹖ 問﹕是的。 WING﹕為了改善經濟﹐我們必須要做些廣告宣傳﹐清潔街道﹐管理好交通﹐要吸引眾多的餐企業人士和生意人參與。要搞很多的活動﹕這個月是搞餐企業的宣傳﹐下個月是做銀行業的宣傳﹐再下一個月是金融業﹐各行各業都有自己的一個宣傳月。而且﹐我想做這些事情也不需要很多錢﹐因為如果這些生意人也參與的話﹐他們也會願意出一些錢的。所以﹐那些非盈利性的機構可以把政府﹐生意人﹐和社區的群眾組織起來﹐我認為這樣是會有很好的效果的。全年的每一個月都有一個主題﹐然後再做些宣傳。這不僅會吸引一些當地的民眾﹐而且也會吸引外地的遊客﹐甚至國外的遊客。這樣會促使﹐不光是唐人街﹐包括附近地區﹐像華爾街﹐繁榮起來。人們因為紐約的高稅率﹐因為911事件，而愈來愈少到紐約。 我們必須把人們吸引過來﹐吸引到紐約。在911之後﹐旅館的價錢降得很低﹐現在才開始慢慢好轉起來。 但是在911之前﹐旅館的生意還是很好的。我聽說整個紐約市百分之九十的房間都已經訂滿﹐區別實在是很大。在911之後的兩年裡﹐很多地方都被迫關閉﹐很多餐館和其他一些生意也完全消失了。現在﹐需要給他們一個機會回來﹐給他們一個機會重新開始。我們需要幫助他們﹐我認為市裡﹐聯邦﹐紐約州應該為他們做些事情﹐不僅僅是為曼哈頓﹐為唐人街﹐要為整個紐約市。 問﹕您認為有沒有一些機構或是唐人街的一些個人能夠組織﹐領導﹐或者倡導一些事情呢﹖ WING﹕我認為這不是個人﹐或一兩個機構能做的事情﹐應該是群體的努力﹐大家都要參與。 （磁帶中斷） 問﹕我剛纔問您在唐人街誰能夠領導或組織一些事情來發展唐人街﹐您說這必須是群體的努力。 WING﹕是的。但是﹐我要針對兩大機構再做些補充。他們不是非盈利機構﹐但他們是社區的組織。一個叫作中華公所CCBA (Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association)﹐另外一個叫作American Fujianese Association。他們是唐人街最大的兩個社區團體。他們在當地的影響力很大。我想他們應該牽頭舉辦我剛纔提到的那些活動。 問﹕您有沒有考慮過也參加組織一些類似的活動﹖ WING﹕如果有可能的話﹐當然可以。我會積極參加的﹐我會盡力的。 問﹕我記得第一次採訪的時候您談到很多人剛剛來到紐約的時候在這裡賺了一些錢﹐然後就離開了﹐沒有太融入這個社區。您也是那段時期來的﹐您卻做了很多的社區工作。您有哪些特殊的地方使得您會這樣做﹖ WING﹕很多人並不在這裡住﹐他們只是在這裡上班﹐只是在這裡賺錢﹐然後就走了。我在搬走之前在這裡已經住了很多年﹐我之所以搬走是因為我需要讓我的孩子居住在一個更好的環境。我和我的太太倒不是非常在乎這些。我在唐人街住了十五年。當時﹐我認為如果一個人在一個地方賺了錢﹐不只是這裡﹐而是在任何地方﹐都應該對當地有所回報﹐包括金錢方面﹐工作方面﹐慈善方面等﹐任何事情。我認為我應該做些事情﹐以回報這個社區﹐因為這些錢或其他的東西都是從這個社區賺來的。就好像是我剛纔提到的中國式的教育﹐你總是要報答那些曾經幫助過你的人。 問﹕您覺得唐人街為什麼沒有像其他那些受到911衝擊的地區得到相同的資助或關注﹖ WING﹕他們沒有像其他地區得到同樣多的資助﹖我實在不知道﹐但我想可能是因為太多的人管事﹐卻沒有人去落實。太多的人申請相同的基金﹐卻沒有一個社區的代表。所以﹐不是太集中。很多的人在做同樣的事﹐而他們不能夠把一些錢分給這個機構﹐他們必須把錢分給大家。所以﹐這些錢最後分配得比較分散。 問﹕您能不能談一下您為什麼沒有像以前那樣積極參與一些政治活動的原因﹖ WING﹕在那個時候﹐我有自己的生意。我當時認為政治和經濟應該攜手合作以使生意越做越好﹐這樣我們的社區也會越來越好﹐這樣才能更好地幫助社區的民眾。的確﹐有的時候政府官員是肯幫忙。但是﹐他們很多都是四年一換﹐一段時期他們能夠幫助你﹐但是四年之後﹐他們卻不能做任何事情﹐因為他們已經不在那個位置上。因此﹐有些時候﹐我也是很無奈。 比如﹐我以前是Vallone的咨詢理事會的成員﹐現在他已經不在市議會了。所以﹐我們以前建立的很多關係都用不上了。因此﹐我認為的確是很難保持一個持續的系統來造福整個社區。所以﹐在這樣的情況下﹐必須能有一些人﹐一些專業人士全職做這些事情﹐而不是我們利用自己的業余時間去做這些事情。必須是有全職的人來管理才能夠有效果。 問﹕您是否認為在職的政府官員應對唐人街的所需負責﹖ WING﹕這個取決于個人。一些是﹐一些不是。有的政府官員不錯﹐有的只是為了拉選票和贊助。一些官員是真做事情的。所以我說完全是看個人。 問﹕您能否舉一些您面臨挑戰的具體實例﹐或是您看到的有關從政方面﹐以及使別人了解自己觀點方面的挑戰嗎﹖ WING﹕比如﹖ 問﹕任何實例﹐比如您或您所在的組織想要達到一些目的但最後沒有實現。 WING﹕有。 問﹕都有什麼樣的障礙﹖具體有什麼困難﹖ WING﹕大約在五年前﹐市議會開了一次服裝業的會議﹐我也有參加。實際上﹐我是發言人之一。我們的行政主管﹐我﹐和Brooklyn Apparel Association的主席﹐也是我的一個好朋友﹐在市議會舉行了一次聽證會﹐討論服裝業對經濟和社區等的影響。 最後﹐我們通過市議員Jerome O'Donovan做出了一些安排。他是來自Staten Island的議員﹐他曾任市議會經濟發展委員會主席﹐這就是為什麼我們請他為我們做些事情，他是個非常負責任的人﹐他回復了我們﹐並為我們安排了一次聽證會。我們很感激他。我不知道這是否有助于其他政府官員了解我們的想法﹐但至少我們做了些事情。這是我們成就的主要的一件事情。 問﹕您能不能舉一些您努力去做但沒有達到目的﹐或您沒有收到政治人物答復的實例﹖ WING﹕有些事情不是一兩個政治人物能幫到的。我想那是由國家的高層人士﹐比如國會議員﹐或參議員來決定的。所以﹐他們只是將我們所講的﹐或在聽證會上的發言記錄在案。當那些做決策的人看到的時候﹐他們也許並不讚同我們的觀點﹐所以我不知道這些是否有幫助﹐但至少我們做了這些事情﹐引起了他們的關注---這就是我們要達到的目的﹐僅此而已。我知道很難引起他們的關注﹐但至少我們做了些正確的事情。 問﹕那是什麼時候的事情﹖ WING﹕大約五年前﹐在市議會。 問﹕您覺得唐人街今後服裝業的前景如何﹖ WING﹕這個行業根本就沒有什麼希望。我的意思是說﹐因為這個國家勞動力的價格沒法和其他南美洲﹐加勒比海﹐亞洲國家的勞動力相比。我們競爭不過他們。國內在這個行業做的人會越來越少。相反﹐越來越多的人會為進口商做事。所以﹐我認為這是個衰落的產業。也許還會有人繼續做這一行﹐正如我剛纔講過﹐那是因為國內需要有人能夠在短期內生產一些產品。這些差不多佔百分之五。 問﹕我知道服裝業在很長一段時間是唐人街經濟的支柱。您覺得什麼會填補這個空缺﹖唐人街以後會變成什麼樣子﹖ WING﹕中國人是很靈活的。在有服裝業的時候﹐他們會投入服裝業。一旦服裝業消失了﹐他們會做些其他事情。我認為這不是什麼問題。但唯一的問題是﹐在這個過渡時期﹐他們需要政府的幫助。正如我先前所講﹐像其他行業一樣﹐他們需要經過培訓才能獲得那個職業所需的執照。我想﹐他們會挺過去的。但是﹐如果政府能夠給他們一點點幫助﹐他們不至于那麼艱難。 問﹕除了培訓以外﹐您認為政府還能提供一些其他什麼樣的幫助﹖ WING﹕創造更多的就業機會。比如﹐如果其他什麼產業需要政府的資助﹐政府應該幫助他們。比如說旅遊業﹐這是這個地區主要的收入來源。所以﹐要幫助旅遊業﹐刺激旅遊業的發展。我想﹐如果越來越多的人來紐約﹐我們就能夠多向政府交稅。所以﹐這不是單行道﹐而是雙行道。政府能夠從中獲利﹐民眾也能從中獲利﹐所以我覺得這是個好主意。 問﹕我們先前談到愛國﹐以及您對愛國的理解。我想知道﹐作為一位移民﹐在移民不是受歡迎﹐或美國的移民政策有很大變化﹐人們來這裡越來越困難的時候﹐您有沒有覺得那些公眾的看法對您個人有影響﹖ WING﹕有。儘管我是公民﹐但我認為我是二等公民。我們不像那些在這裡土生土長的美國人﹐或在美國出生的人﹐我們是歸化後的公民。但至少從我們受到的中國教育中﹐我們知道如果這個國家為我們做了一些事情﹐我們也要有所回報。我在這個國家接受了教育﹐而且我在這裡學到和獲得了很多東西﹐我也應該為這個國家做些貢獻。我就是這樣看待愛國主義的。 問﹕您有沒有感覺在911之後﹐外國人不太受歡迎。我覺得在那之後美國對很多人已經關閉了大門。您是否也有同感﹖ WING﹕是的。人們比以前更加親近了﹐比以前更願意幫助別人﹐特別是在911發生後不久。紐約的警察也比從前更加友善。我都能夠感覺到﹐他們不再是發號施令﹐他們變得很通融。這是我們以前沒有體驗過的事情﹐感覺﹐或是環境﹐從來沒有﹗當時﹐人們更加願意互相幫助﹐有更多的自由。各個種族之間也沒有界線。在那個時候﹐就好像是人與人之間關係上的最佳時期。 問﹕在那之後﹐這些有沒有改變﹖ WING﹕又恢復到911之前的狀況。但至少我們知道人們會做到我剛纔講述的那樣﹐這不是每個人天生能夠做到的。 問﹕您有沒有考慮過要參加競選擔任公職﹖ WING﹕我認為我不符合資格。向政府官員提建議或表達自己的意見是好事情﹐但我認為我不適合做那個位置﹐我不感興趣。 問﹕您有沒有支持過一些什麼競選的活動﹖ WING﹕有一些。我們支持過很多市議員。在(Governor George E.) Pataki競選連任州長的時候﹐我們支持過他。在Kathryn Freed﹐我們當地的女議員﹐競選議員和公眾代言人的時候﹐我們也支持過她。但她沒有選上。這次﹐她競選法官。我不知道她能否被選上﹐但我投了她的票。我相信她選上了。另外一個是Jerome O'Donovan。我們給了他一些經濟贊助﹐因為我們不在那個區。在Mark Green競選市長的時候﹐我們也支持了他。還有誰﹖我們支持過(Rudolph W.) Giuliani和(Daivd Norman) Dinkins。 問﹕您講的“我們”指的是誰﹖ WING﹕我們的協會。 問﹕The Garment Manufactureres Association﹖ WING﹕是的﹐因為我不是以個人的名義做這些事情的﹐而是以團體的名義。 問﹕我記得您剛纔講過在您在Garment Manufactureres Association任職的時候和一些政府官員交涉﹐決定支持哪些人﹐以及向他們反映一些你們的實際問題。您能否再談一下您的那些經歷﹖ WING﹕好的。我記得在1986年﹐或者是80年代﹐Dinkins競選市長的時候﹐當時有個人曾擔任過MTA (Metropolitan Transportation Authority)的負責人---我不記得他的名字。我們支持他競選市長﹐但他在初選就落選了。我們支持他的原因是---我現在想起他的名字了﹕Dick Ratrich, Richard Ratrich。他競選的時候﹐我們整個協會都支持他。當時別人都不知道他這個人。但他曾是MTA的負責人﹐MTA的委員長。我不清楚我們為什麼支持他﹐但我們協會以前的主席說他可以幫助我們社區﹐可以替我們的社區講話﹐如果他當市長的話﹐他會幫助我們。 當時﹐我在從政上還是個新手---很多事情我都不懂。但是﹐我們還是支持他。後來﹐儘管他落選了﹐但這對我們還是一個好的經歷﹐我們懂得了如果我們要支持某個人﹐我們必須以團體的名義﹐而不是個人的名義。這就是我們的經歷。儘管我們失敗了﹐這個經歷還是比較成功的。 問﹕在哪些方面您認為是成功的﹖ WING﹕我們為他籌集資金﹐有八百多人參加﹐這已經是很不錯了。這意味著我們有能力吸引社區民眾的關注﹐這是我們在那次集資行動上學到的事情之一。在此之後﹐我們懂得了怎樣搞集資﹐以及怎樣選擇我們支持的候選人。 問﹕您認為現在政府能做些什麼來支持服裝業﹖ WING﹕這很難﹐因為現在很難改變他們已經做的事情。這就好像是單行路﹐你不能往回走的。比如﹐政府制定了NAFTA﹐北美自由貿易協定(the North American Free Trade Agreement)。他們已經制定了﹐這個協定損害了我們的產業。他們還有所謂的806-807協定﹐是美國和加勒比海國家制定的。這是犧牲美國的利益以使別的國家受益。所以﹐這也使我們的產業受到重創。 所以﹐就是這些他們已經做了的事情﹐現在﹐他們已經和很多國家有類似的協定。作為補償﹐他們和那些國家制定了一些其他方面的貿易協定﹐比如高科技或計算機方面的。但是﹐我認為如果他們想要支持這個產業﹐他們現在至少設法把百分之幾的市場要回來。這樣很多人的工作就業問題就會有很大的改善。這個產業﹐在鼎盛時期﹐能夠解決市里上百萬人的就業問題﹐這些工作都直接或間接地與這個產業有關係。一百多萬人。現在也許只有十萬﹐二十萬﹖比以前少多了。很多大的製造商都倒閉了。他們以前都搞得很大很大﹐但現在都沒有人知道他們了。很不幸﹐這就好像是歷史﹐是歷史的趨勢。一些產業衰落﹐另外一些產業開始紅火。 TAPE 002-2 SIDE B 問﹕我在想還有沒有其他事情我們沒有談到。您有什麼補充嗎﹖ WING﹕你剛纔談到政府如何幫助這個產業。其實﹐我們的要求並不過份﹐我們只是要求比如說百分之五的市場。有了這百分之五﹐很多人都會有工作。 問﹕增加什麼的百分之五﹖ WING﹕不是增加﹐是保持百分之五。比如說﹐有百分之百的進口。百分之百和百分之五。把這一部份帶回到這個國家﹐帶回到紐約﹐我們會創造十萬多個就業機會。我不是在開玩笑。 問﹕我記得您剛纔談過一件事情﹐我想再提一下﹐就是在唐人街的很多人不能夠選舉﹐或是不願意選舉﹐您為什麼認為這是個挑戰呢﹖ WING﹕正如我先前所講﹐很多人在唐人街做工﹐但不住在唐人街﹐所以他們沒有選舉權利﹐也許他們在他們住的地方有選舉權。有很多人做了選民登記﹐卻不參加選舉﹐我不知道為什麼。這也許是因為傳統上中國人不想和政府打交道。中國人很保守。他們不想和政府打交道是因為他們認為在活著的時候沒有必要和政府打交道﹐在死後﹐也不會下地獄﹐差不多是這個意思。所以﹐他們不想和政府打交道。他們認為﹐總是因為有不好的事才會需要和衙門打交道﹔或是牢獄之災或是吃官司等等。但這裡同中國不同﹐美國是個民主的國家﹐但他們還從來沒有時間來適應這裡的制度。所以﹐這需要一個教育引導的過程﹐我想再過一些年他們會逐漸有這方面的意識。而且﹐他們已經從一些組織﹐一些非盈利機構那裡獲得很多信息﹐比如中華公所(CCBA)﹐the Fujianese Association。那些組織機構經常會教育他們選舉的重要性等。 問﹕他們的看法有沒有改變﹖ WING﹕不多﹐但是在逐漸改變。我是這樣認為的﹐因為第二代人總是和第一代人的觀點不一樣的。 問﹕最後一個問題﹐我記得您剛纔說過﹐您認為CCBA和the Fujianese Association是兩個能夠牽頭帶動唐人街發展的組織﹐您是否認為他們能夠在一起合作﹖ WING﹕可以﹐為什麼不呢﹖ 問﹕您認為他們在合作上有什麼挑戰嗎﹖ WING﹕也許他們在政治上有一些衝突﹐因為他們一個支持台灣﹐一個支持中國大陸。他們的政治觀點不同。但是﹐在為社區謀利這方面﹐我想他們的目標是一致的﹐我認為應該是沒有什麼問題。 問﹕好的﹐您是否還有什麼要補充的﹖ WING﹕基本上﹐該談到的我已經都談到了。 問﹕非常感謝您能花時間接受我們的採訪。 WING﹕也謝謝你﹐我不知道我會不會對你們有所幫助。 問﹕我覺得您對我們有很大的幫助﹐這在現在和將來對很多人都會有很大幫助的。 WING﹕希望如此。我不知道--- （採訪完畢） Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wing Ma 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Cambao de Duong Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2003-11-17 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation Manpower Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: I'm going to start by having you say your full name and where you are from. Cambao: My name is Cambao de Duong. I'm from Saigon in South Vietnam. Q: Can you tell us about your life in Vietnam? Cambao: Yes. I was born in Vietnam to Chinese parents. I grew up, was educated and worked in Vietnam as a teacher in Saigon and in Kien Tuong. I also was a principal in Saigon, too. Also I taught in the School of Language of Teacher’s College until April 30, 1975. Because I was commissioned to the South Vietnam army, so it was good enough for me to be ordered to receive ten days seminar with the new regime. Interview: Let's back up a little bit. You said that you were born to Chinese parents. That means your parents came from China, to Vietnam? Cambao: Yes. Q: And as Chinese living in Vietnam, is your life any different than an average Vietnamese person? Cambao: I think it did not make any difference, because in the area we lived, there was a mix of Chinese and Vietnamese. So we did not have language barriers, so everybody treated everybody so nice. Q: So at home what language did you speak, and what did you study in school, also? Cambao: At home, normally we speak our dialect -- that's Chao Chow. And sometimes we use many other languages, like Vietnamese. Sometimes we use Cantonese. However, in school, I went through three school systems -- Chinese, French and Vietnamese. Mainly Vietnamese and Chinese. In Chinese school I learned Mandarin, and in Vietnamese school, of course, I learned Vietnamese. Q: So you do not feel any different than a Vietnamese person in Vietnam, and your friends, your colleagues, were all different people. All Chinese and Vietnamese. Cambao: Yes. We lived together and I taught many years in the Vietnamese school. And I taught Vietnamese literature. I speak fluent Vietnamese, fluently, like any Vietnamese. So no one can treat me differently. Q: So growing up in Vietnam during wartime, did that have any affect on your life at all? Cambao: Surely. Because of the wartime, I was called to join the army. I received one year's training there. And because at that time I became an officer, a lieutenant, and so after 1975…. I mean, April 30…..I was ordered to get into a re-educational camp. Q: Some of our viewers may not know what happened on April 30, 1975. Cambao: April 30, '75 was the day South Vietnam collapsed. And the North Vietnam took over the South. It became one country after that. And the people living in the South had to suffer with the new regime policy and, because of that, a lot of people escaped from Vietnam. I believe about two million people escaped from Vietnam after that. Q: So immediately following April 30, 1975, as a Chinese person living in Vietnam, did that have any impact on your family or your personal life at all? Cambao: It impacted on my personal life because many reasons. One of the many reasons is I was in the army. The second reason was, I am a Chinese descent, and the third reason, I have a high educational background. Q: Which army were you in? Cambao: I was trained in Thu Duc, an Army Reserve Officer training school. Actually, I did not fight at any time. Q: You were in the southern Vietnam army, not the northern Communist. Cambao: No. Q: After '75, then what happened? Cambao: I was sent to the new regime concentration camp for re-education. That was a struggle. I had a hard life there. I stayed there more than three years. I had to struggle with many kinds of difficulty such as without food, and sick without medicine. And it caused me, from a strong man, it make me weaker. I lost a lot of weight. I lost about fifty pounds. Q: And how old were you at this time? Cambao: I was about 32 when I was in the camp. Q: And you had already formed your own family? Cambao: Yes. I just married for about four months. And I had to leave my wife. My son was born when I was in the camp. Q: So how do you think your wife felt at the time? Cambao: Of course she suffered. And I respect that she was able to stay to wait for me. Meanwhile, many people take the chance to escape from Vietnam. She had many opportunities to leave, but she stayed there to wait for me. Q: Why do you think you survived those three years in the re-education camp, when so many people did not? Cambao: I strongly believe that I did a lot of good things for people. I did not do anything to harm any people. As an educator, I taught my students not only become people with good knowledge, but also taught them to become good people, in order to serve society sooner or later -- even the new regime. My students understood me, and they believed me. Q: Do you think you learned anything about your own strength at the time? Cambao: I learned one thing: that you believed at certain thing, and you did the right thing, you’d get it. Q: After you were released, three years later, how did you live your life? Cambao: At that time a lot of people, as well as teachers, escaped from Vietnam to other countries. And Vietnamese needed teachers. So the new regime, the so-called Viet Cong, they released me to go back to teach in a high school. I became a high school teacher again and taught for three years. Q: Is your whole family with you in America now? Cambao: I, and my small sized family. My direct family, my relatives are still there, my brothers, sister, and nieces and nephews are still there. Q: And how did you come to America? Cambao: I had a sister-in-law and a brother-in-law living in America. They sponsored me. Meanwhile, I tried to find my way out. I tried many years, by boat. But I was unsuccessful. So I decided to wait for their sponsorship, and then I was lucky, because the United States government figured out I served in the South Vietnam government, so they allowed me to come to this country very soon after my application. Q: And since coming to America, have you had the chance to go back to Vietnam at all? Cambao: No. Totally not. Q: Would you like to go back? Cambao: I want to, but not at this point. Q: So then you came to America in what year? Cambao: I came to America at the end of 1983. Q: And where did you go? Cambao: I came to New York City immediately. Q: And why did you decide to stay in New York City? Cambao: There are some reasons I decided to settle in New York City. Because, first, I have a relative living in New York City. Second, I believe that New York City is the capitol of the world, and with that… Q: So you came to New York City in 1983? You were not a refugee. Cambao: I am a refugee. Q: You are considered refugee status? Cambao: Yes. Q: But you came over….there's a program…what is it called? Cambao: It's called ODP -- it stands for Orderly Departure Program. However, I had to stay in a Thailand refugee camp Panat Nikhom for a period of time, until the end of 1983. I came here because I have a brother-in-law living in New York City. And possibly I believe that (because of) my background the United States government accepted me as a refugee. Q: So then you decided to stay in New York City. Cambao: Yes. Q: Why? Cambao: There are some reasons. The first reason, I have a relative living in New York City. Secondly, I believe that New York City is the capitol of the world, and it is a diverse city with people … the city with people who come from all countries of the world. And I believe that we can avoid being discriminated (against). And finally, I believe in New York City it is easy for me to find a job. Q: And was it easy for you to find a job? Cambao: Yes. I just came for a short time and I found my first job, in Midtown. Q: How did you find your first job? Cambao: I was referred by an employment service agency to try some interviews, but was not successful. And I eventually found the first job as a food deliverer in midtown Manhattan. With, of course, very low pay -- $3.00 an hour, lower than minimum wage. That, I know. However, I needed to survive and feed my family. I had to take any job, with any pay. Luckily, besides salary I also got tips, so I could survive on that. Q: How did you feel going from a very educated man who worked in many languages being a teacher, to being a middle-aged delivery boy in New York City? Cambao: I understand, because without a job I cannot feed my family. So I had to accept even what many people consider a lower level job, with very low pay. I believe that I start with lower level, entry-level job, and later on I will find better work when my English gets improved. Q: How much English did you know when you first came here? Cambao: When I first came I knew very little English. So I had to attend an ESL class at the YMCA. I attended the ESL class for about six months. During that time I delivered food, I had the opportunity to talk to people. Even (though) my vocabulary was limited, but I believe I could speak fluently at that time. So when I found my second job, it was helpful for me to go through the interview. Q: Before you actually came to America, what were your ideas of America? What did you think would be here waiting for you? Cambao: At the beginning I didn't think about coming to the United States. I know France better. But I had no choice. So I come here. I know it is the land of the free. That’s what I love. Also, this is the country with the opportunities -- I found that that's true. I have no regrets for coming to this country. Q: When you got here, even working as a delivery person, you still believed that this country had opportunities for you. Cambao: I understand that I'm a newcomer. People don't know me. Whenever they know me, they will hire me for a more appropriate position. It proved that when I worked for a restaurant for a short period of time, the restaurant did not provide health insurance, of course. And then I tried to find a job with health insurance coverage. When I planned to resign from that restaurant they wanted to transfer me to a full time position. I forgot to tell you that my first job was part-time. How many hours I would work per day depending on the need of the restaurant. Some days it was about four hours, some days longer. Q: And how long did you stay at that job, and how did that take you to the next job? Cambao: I stayed on that job for more than two months. And then on some occasion I knew that there was an opening in a non-profit organization in Chinatown. So I went to apply even I didn't know, at that time, how to take a subway train to Chinatown. Q: So as a person in 1983 New York had many Asians. So do you feel Chinese, do you feel Vietnamese? Is this an issue for you at all? Cambao: It didn't bother me for thinking of myself as a Vietnamese or Chinese. Even before then I thought about that. However, after that I believe I found something -- it doesn't matter. No matter, Vietnamese or Chinese, it's one human being thing. So I treat all kinds of people no differently...I also hope people treat me no differently. No matter what color or what their educational background or what ethnic base. Q: So if I were to ask you, Mr. Duong, where are you from, what would your answer be? Cambao: I would say I'm from Vietnam. And when people ask me, who are you? They mean what country are you (from) I may say I'm a Chinese-Vietnamese. Q: So then your next job was for….? Cambao: I started to work in a non-profit organization with the lowest level position. It was called 'intake specialist'. It is to help people to fill out application forms. The kind of program I worked for is the refugee vocational training program. And, you know, that's after the stage of the boat people. A lot of Vietnamese and Cambodian and Laotian, they settled down in New York City. So that agency needed someone who not only can speak English but also can speak Vietnamese and Chinese, and know their culture, in order to help them. So I was hired to work on that position. But soon they found that I was an educator, and they allowed me to substitute some courses, like an accounting course. Even though I didn't know what accounting was, I spent time to study, I taught very well, and I was promoted to the skilled instructor position. And then they asked me to teach computer. I had to learn more knowledge about that. It made me decide to go back to school. And then I earned my BA degree in computer science from Hunter College. Q: And why do you enjoy teaching? Cambao: Oh, I love teaching, because when I was young, I dropped out from school for one semester. My principal, the person who cared about all the students, their education -- and because I was an excellent student in that school, I always ranked number one in the school -- and he came to my family and he talked to my relatives and my uncle allowed me to go back to study again, and he didn't charge any tuition, because I was the excellent student in that program. I look at him as a good example. He helped a lot of people. So I decided I want to be a teacher. And that's why I attend the Teacher’s College in Vietnam. And my whole life in Vietnam, I spent a lot of time teaching. Q: So the next job you were also teaching refugees. Cambao: Yes. Q: Do you think your background made you a better teacher? Cambao: The first thing is my background. Second thing, I committed to help other refugees. I know how hard it is for a refugee's life, like myself. Everybody has to stand on your own feet. So I tried, through my experience, I tried to help others do not fall into the same trap as I did. Q: At this time were you living comfortably in New York, would you say? Making an okay living? Cambao: I believe so, yes. Q: How long did you stay at this job? Cambao: I stayed at that agency for more than seventeen years. I was promoted many times when I was there. From skill instructor, to program coordinator, to resource developer, to program director, to agency coordinator, and then to the agency deputy executive director. Q: As director, did you try to implement any changes? Cambao: Yes, I did make a lot of changes. Because, for me, color, and any background, is not so important. I'm thinking we're all human beings here. And because of that, I brought in a lot of funding to serve not only concentrated on Asians, but also serve the non-Asian population, too. Q: So your work is in Chinatown at this time. Cambao: Yes. Q: What does Chinatown mean to you? Is it just a workplace, or is this a place where you feel at home? Do you feel connected to other people like yourself? Cambao: I feel Chinatown is a very wonderful place. It's warm. Even if it's not so clean, okay, it's a good place for people to visit, to work, and especially for people who like to eat here. Q: Tell me a little bit more about types of people you work with. Seventeen years is a very long time to stay in one job. What kept you there for so long? Cambao: I said Chinatown is a wonderful place. Besides, I can use my skills and knowledge in teaching. And also I am able to help many newcomers. Including social services people. I forgot to tell you, besides computer science, I also received an MSW from NYU. And I am able to help people to change. When people face the difficulty with child abuse problems, I know the ways to handle it, and I can speak their languages. So I advise some people to avoid their children taken by the Administration for Children Services. Q: When you first came, were there any organizations that you joined that helped you assimilate into American life? Cambao: No, none at all or I don’t know about. I joined many associations to volunteer to serve people. I think I'm mature enough to help others except having language barrier. I know this country’s culture very well, too. Q: Where did you learn about the culture? Cambao: I learned from books, I read a lot in my country. Of course they were in Vietnamese or Chinese. So when I came to New York I found that New York was not like whatever I cannot cope with. Q: And in this time… Can you give me a better idea of what Chinatown was like when you arrived, at that time? In the 80s. Cambao: I see, first thing, the population even it was crowded, but in the small areas. At that time, I believe, there was about 70,000 Chinese in Manhattan's Chinatown…. here…. compared to Cho Lon in the south part of Saigon in South Vietnam. There was about 700,000 Chinese there. So for me, it was very small. At that time I saw that the Chinese in Chinatown here is an old generation. They speak either Toishanese or Cantonese. And I saw Chinatown is about from south of Canal to Worth Street to Center Street. Q: Let's try to get a better sense of Chinatown in 1983. When you came. Cambao: '84, actually. Q: '84. Cambao: I came to Chinatown in mid-March in 1984. I didn't know Chinatown until that day. I thought Chinatown was a small place, but warm. It's a wonderful place for people to visit, to work here, and to eat here. I see the population, it was crowded in Chinatown. But I learned from census data in the ‘80 it was about 30,000 Chinese in Chinatown, in Manhattan, compared to Cho-lon a part of Saigon in South Vietnam before 1975, there were 700,000 Chinese there, so I saw that it was a small town. However, I saw it's a good place for me to work here because I can meet people who speak my languages, including people who speak Vietnamese in Chinatown. Even at that time I saw only three or four Vietnamese grocery stores in Chinatown. And on Mulberry Street here, two were here. And one was at the corner of Bayard and Mulberry. And beside I see Chinatown in a positive way. I also see the negative way. It was dirty. And many times we heard about people who have committed a crime, including gangsters in Chinatown. They have different names, and also at that time they started to have Vietnamese gangs, too. It was just starting. Q: Would you say you had a sense of belonging here? You felt comfortable in Chinatown? Cambao: Yes, I felt very comfortable to work with my co-workers. Even if my co-workers are black or white, but the majority of them are Asians, including Chinese majority of Hong Kong, Taiwan and Mainland China. We also had Asian workers from Singapore, from the Philippines, from Korea. Q: Did you visit other cities in America, or you decided that you were going to stay? Cambao: I visited many other cities on occasions when I attended seminars or conferences in other cities. I went to the west coast; I went to the north, to the south, to many states and cities. However, I found New York City was probably the city I liked the most because of many reasons. Here, I can see anything I want to see, but many other cities do not have it. Q: Did you experience any discrimination, because in the early 80s there was still a lot of feeling about the Vietnam War. As a person from Vietnam did you personally experience any prejudice or discrimination? Cambao: Probably not because I was a Vietnamese. In answer to your question -- discrimination -- I have this kind of feeling like people look at me like a homeless person, because I went to pick up the old winter coats for my family and myself, the bus driver did not allow me to get into the bus. My educational background taught me that I had to let elderly, females, and children get into the bus first. I was the last one. And the bus driver, he closed the door when I put my foot at the bus step. Luckily, many other people were so nice to yell at him, "Let him in." Because I carried a garbage bag, a black one, to put my clothing that I had just received in that and he thought that I was a homeless guy. So he didn't allow me to get in. I believe he did not know if I'm Chinese or Korean or Vietnamese or Japanese. We all look similar. Q: How did that make you feel to have to go and get free clothing -- was that the Salvation Army? Is that the kind of places you went to? Cambao: I believe that's associated with the United States Catholic Charity (USCC). My caseworker at USCC told me the address and I went there to pick it up. I believe that's not the Salvation Army. Q: So when you got to America, what was your financial situation? Were you able to bring any money over? Or you came with nothing? Cambao: I came with nothing. But I got assistance from the USCC. That's government money. (They) assisted me through that agency. Each member of my family received two hundred dollars assistance at the beginning. So that two hundred dollars released me temporarily the first time I came to this country, and then I started to work and make my own living. Q: But where did you live when you first got here? Cambao: I lived…I shared an apartment with my relative in the upper west side of Manhattan. Q: So the government did not help you as far as finding housing or put you in a home. Cambao: No. Not at all. Q: Did that form any impressions about the land of the free for you? Cambao: I wanted to be independent. If the government could help me at that time, I appreciate it. I believe that that kind of policy changed. The government could not help me so much. So I had decided to stay on my own. Q: So Chinatown in 84, you said, was very crowded, and there was a lot more crime. And through the work you do, at the time, did you personally and professionally try to make any changes in Chinatown? Cambao: I believe I did. I did a lot at that time besides my job. In my job I was able to help the young people from Vietnam to enroll in our program. When I became a program director, actually, I did not work so directly with them. I didn't need it. However, I still worked very closely with them, I provided private counseling in my office and make them aware that to concentrate in starting to look for a new job is better than getting involved with any activity that is not legal. I also participated in many associations. I was a co-founder for the Greater New York Vietnamese American Community Association, as well as the Indo-China Sino-American Senior Citizen/Community Center. And through these two agencies…. I forgot to tell you, I also am the co-founder of the Vietnamese Magazine that I can write and put the message for people to learn about the community, and about Chinatown, too. And through two agencies and one magazine I was able to help Vietnamese people to get funding to enroll in one program called (the) Youth Leadership Development Program. The funds come from the New York City Department of Youth Services, at that time. And Mayor Dinkins at that time had an impression on me after I spoke at a citywide conference sponsored by the US Department of Justice in New York City. And he supported my point of view -- we have to help the newcomers, especially young people, to know, to give them the direction where to go. And for the Senior Center, the Indo-China Senior Center, I set up a place for people to come to read newspapers, to share information, to play chess, so they won't feel so lonely. And I know that many elderly from Vietnam only can speak certain Chinese dialects, they cannot integrate into many Chinatown senior centers. Let’s say that downstairs here we have the Chinatown Senior Center. Our people from Vietnam, they came in there, they could not speak the language people use down there. So the Indo-China Senior Center could help people who speak the same languages have a place to come to rest and, to eat and to play. And the government recognized our work, and after I submitted certain proposals, these two agencies received funding to run the certain programs. And that helped the government did not have a negative look at the Chinese community, especially the Vietnamese community, the smaller one here. And I would like to mention that during the Chinatown had the Born to Kill problem, the Asian community in general -- the Chinese and Vietnamese community was invited to participate in many conferences and meetings, even at the police headquarters. And I learned that one bad exercise called Saigon Mission was established at the 5th Precinct. You know the term 'Vietnam Rose' is used to imply venereal disease during the Vietnam War. 'The Vietnam Rose' is used to (sounds like) involve Vietnamese about the disease when the American soldiers have sex with Vietnamese ladies. So I had the feeling that Saigon Mission is the other unfair way to treat Vietnamese in Chinatown here. So I strongly raised my voice to against the use of that term. Eventually the police headquarters agreed with me and give the order to precincts and captains that they had to take the name out. That's one. And I participated in some other activities. Such as I served as an advisor to the Board of Education’s chancellor. At that time there was one story about the Amerasian who was 15. His story was aired on Channel 13. A young boy, 15, came to the United States and was adopted to live with foster parents. And he was sent to attend the ninth grade in a high school. Meanwhile, he was discriminated against in Vietnam because he was an Amerasian. He looked like an American, and he was mistreated in the Vietnam school system. He only had two years' education in Vietnam, and he came to this country and he was enrolled in the ninth grade. So he could not understand and he dropped out. He became a gangster in the Born to Kill. I learned that through his caseworker, and I learned that through the Channel 13 article. So I raised my voice in a chancellor council advisory committee meeting. I said it clearly that providing education to the newcomers, to immigrants and refugees, it needs to be based on their educational background rather than on their ages. And I believe that the chancellor at that time agreed with me. And now the newcomers will be tested before they are enrolled into whatever level in the city. And also, the city education system continues to provide the bilingual education to newcomer children. I also, with some friends, established the Shuang Wen (dual languages) School. Now it is located at the end of East Broadway at Grand Street. PS 134. And it was a very successful school; it has run for five years. And this year for the fourth grade citywide reading test, it was ranked number four in the whole city. And early in this fiscal year the US Department of Education secretary, Dr. Paige, went down to visit that school. I believe that even the newcomers, when we spend time and participate, we can make a difference. Q: Many of our teachers, when they first come to America, tend to work very hard to earn enough money to live. Why do you think you have invested so much of your time to do community involved volunteer work when you could be working for money for your family? Cambao: I did work very hard. Sometimes I did more than one job. And I worked in the evening time and I worked during weekends. We were paid cash. I went to New Jersey to help people, my friend who sells watches, one day. They paid me fifty dollars per day. I believe that education and social services are two factors that can change our society. So I committed myself when I thought I was ready, and I believed I was capable to do those things, so I participated, and joined many agencies. Q: And have you encountered any difficulties in your work? Cambao: Yes, I do. Like I did not pay attention so much to my ethnic background, but people did not think that way. The Vietnamese, they treated me like: "Oh, you are Chinese." Probably Chinese people, I strongly believe, they treat me like a Vietnamese. And of course, Americans, they don't treat me like an American. Okay? If some say to me (call me) politely like an Asian American, that is I appreciate it. But many times they say that 'you are Vietnamese' or 'you are Chinese'. They don't say, 'you are Asian-American.' I hope I can join in and hopefully the young generation will do more things to help to change people's image on prejudice on this issue. Q: How? Cambao: I don't know how. But I believe that if you don't try, you won't get it. That’s my point of view. We try, and then see if we can change or not. Q: So even in a city as diverse as New York City, do you think there is racial harmony in this city? Cambao: Racial harmony -- we raise a question in this way. It depends on how we define 'harmony', in what way. If we say that, sometimes we have arguments because ethnic differences are normal for me. I don't want to jump to conclusions, like in certain cases people so easily jump to conclusions of discrimination. Like a color discrimination or whatever discrimination. I didn't jump to that unless we have evidence. Q: I'm going to jump forward a little bit. Cambao: Okay. Q: To September 11, 2001. Where were you at that time? Cambao: I was in Chinatown, here. I witnessed the two towers collapse, and I was very sad. And that time, when the second tower was hit by the plane, I believe that from my own experience of living through the Vietnam War, I believe that's not an accident. I did order that my staff and students at the agency I worked at – it’s about two hundred people -- to leave the agency to go home. However, at the top, I have a boss, the executive director -- she came in after me. She used the intercom to tell me: "That's an accident." I told her, "I believe that's not an accident. That wouldn't happen twice." And she said that we could not let everybody go home because if the government or the funding agencies checked, what could we do. I was unable to answer her question at that time, because I believed people lives are more important than the other, so I let the staff and students leave the agency. Some staff members were stopped by her on the staircase and had to come back to the agency and stay late on that day. I had to stay until about two. And then have lunch in Chinatown. I had no train to go home. I came home very late. I think that day was a very sad day. And you can see after that the country, especially the cities, the economic situation, went down. Many people lost their job. And we faced more difficulty as a social service agency. Many people came to us even they were not eligible for our services. But still, I had to spend some of my time to help them. And working in Chinatown, it was much near my home compared to my current job site, I usually came home late, because I had to spend more time to serve my clientele here. Q: And on an impact level, did September 11th impact your job? Cambao: Yes. It made my job harder. Because, like I said before, more people came to me, even they were not eligible for our service. Q: As an agency, did you try to find ways to get more resources and to get more money to help our people? Cambao: Yes. Besides running my own program, where I oversee the agency and some parts of the operations, for a certain time we have to spend some time to look for funding. And I was able to get for the agency an additional $300,000. I received a check from Chicago. One foundation called McCormick Tribune Foundation, they gave our agency $300,000 to serve the people impacted by 9/11. They saw our program was one of the top programs. We had been selected to receive their funding. And also at the same time my boss had a connection with a federal government agency, and we got additional funding to serve the people. Q: Do you think your personal background, all the difficulties that you have personally experienced, has prepared you for situations like this? Cambao: I strongly believe so. Because I lived through the Vietnam War, so I have to be sensitive to hear the sound, to see the things, in order to avoid being hurt during the Vietnam War. And also more than three years living in the new regime -- South Vietnam new regime -- in a concentration camp, it prepared me to face the difficulties. Q: Did you want to leave Vietnam if your life hadn't changed the way it did after 1975? Cambao: Of course I did not want to. Even the change of '75 events, I still strongly believe that it's a good place to live, and to utilize my knowledge to help people. But the new regime did not accept me. They didn't want me to stay there. So I had to leave. Q: You felt that you had no choice. Cambao: I had no choice. Q: Do you feel you have lost your home, in a way? Cambao: Financially, that's true. I lost a lot of property there. I lost many homes there. I owned land and homes over there. That's why I came to this country. I didn't buy gold, like many other Asians and Chinese would buy gold. They can use gold to buy a boat to escape from Vietnam. I did not have that. Q: When I say 'home' I don't mean just a house or property, but a sense of belonging because you have two generations of your family had been in Vietnam. It was like you lost your country, in a way. Cambao: That's true. Thank you for understanding about that part. Q: So have you rebuilt a home in New York City? Cambao: In terms of 'home', that's true. Q: Do you feel you belong here, you feel comfortable here, you will stay here for the rest of your life and future generations? Cambao: At this point, my answer is yes. I don't know what will happen in the future. Q: So tell us about your work presently. Cambao: Okay. Currently I work for a Jewish American association. It has established a new branch in Brooklyn and I was hired last year to run the branch in Brooklyn. It's an employment placement service agency. We help everybody until the end of last year. Because of funding shrinking, now we can only help people on public assistance. Q: I know that your job is no longer in Chinatown, but it's almost twenty years that you've been part of this community. What are some of the biggest changes that you've seen here? Cambao: Actually, nineteen years. I've been in this country nineteen years. I've seen changes, a lot, in Chinatown. Even though I am not working in Chinatown, but I still come back to Chinatown. I volunteer to serve on the board as a president of the Eastern Vietnam-Cambodian-Laos-Chinese Decent Association. I usually go there to oversee the books and to provide services to elderly and needy people. So I see things change compared to the time I came to Chinatown in March of 1984. I see the population change. A lot of people come from Fujian to come to Chinatown. And I learned through the census -- 2000 -- that I participated, and I found that there are a lot of undocumented residents living in New York City. They're living here, but working in other cities, or out of the city. They must have the place to live in Chinatown. As I know you may have paid attention to the newspaper a couple of days ago. At 81 Bowery, the fourth floor, one floor is about two to three thousand square feet. More than a hundred people live up there. Okay. First the population changed. Of course the language changed too. In the past, Toishanese and Cantonese were spoken in Chinatown. But now, Fujianese and Mandarin gradually were used in many places. I've seen more stores open, and the area of Chinatown was expanded to the north of Canal. A lot. However, it was not much on the south of Canal. And to the west on Canal, it was expanded to Broadway. There's a big change, and one positive change I like very much -- Chinatown is cleaner compared to the past. I would like to acknowledge the Cleaning Chinatown Committee, led by Danny Lee, Eva Tan, Bill Lam, and many other business people in Chinatown here. And I see a lot of positive things in Chinatown here. Now they even still have gangsters, but they are not so active like in the past. So the crime rate went down consecutively in the past five years. More than five years. Q: Do you think Chinatown, as a neighborhood, received less funding for things like sanitation, and traffic, than other areas? It is obviously very crowded and still dirty, compared to other areas of Manhattan. Why do you think that is? Cambao: Because we didn't raise our voice strong enough for people to hear, especially to the elected officers. They thought that we did not have this kind of need. Some agencies did apply, but they were not strong enough to make the funding agencies believe that Chinatown has this kind of need. Q: Do you think Chinatown as a community and the residents of Chinatown speak up to make changes for the community, or are they more worried about themselves? Cambao: Frankly, I see they are not united to the level as I expected to make the community strong and make the funding agencies believe they represent for the Chinatown community, to fight for the Chinatown community's benefit. Some agencies just care about their own agencies’ operation, and they try to get the funding for the services they provide, not for the whole of Chinatown. That's easy to understand. Because they specialize in their field, they fight for their field money. I hope that Chinatown in the long run will have some leader to put everybody together and make it strong like I experienced in the Chinese community in Vietnam. They were so strong. When they wanted to do some things, the leaders said something and no one turned it down. But here it seems everybody was a leader, and it seems that we have no leader. Q: Is it really possible, when you have so many different groups in Chinatown -- as you said, there's now the Fujianese, you have the Cantonese, the Toishanese, there's many, many different groups -- who would this leader be? Cambao -- At this point I see one positive thing happening in the Fujianese (community). They were so close to it. They started to provide service to their community, let’s say ESL. This is a good thing. Did you see any other agency provide it beside a non-profit organization? It's not happening to the other ethnic group -- I mean the other like dialect speaking groups. Only the Fujianese. I see that happens to their community and because of that some people (certain level of government representatives) cared and came down to visit them. And whenever the elected officers need money, they will come to them. And it's a two-way direction. If they support certain people, of course in return they can get something from them to support their community. Q -- So because of the proximity, we know that Chinatown suffered huge business losses after September 11th. Do you think now, two years later, Chinatown is back? Is business back to usual as before September 11th or still in the rebuilding stages? Cambao: On the surface I see the restaurant business has come back. However, I don't think the garment factories, the other main business in Chinatown, have not come back yet. Q: Will they come back, do you think? Cambao: According to my understanding, even (though) I'm not in that field, because of the trade issue the central government has signed certain agreements with foreign countries, I don't think this garment factory industry will come back to New York City, here, especially Chinatown. In the United States the cost of labor is more expensive compared to send the clothing making to Mexico or to China. So I don't think it will come back. Some people need to think about a change in the services in Chinatown, here, or the model of business in Chinatown, here, in order to make Chinatown become a more wonderful place for people. To attract tourists to come here is one of many ways. Q: Can you really see a future where Chinatown is unified, with all the different groups have a strong leadership? Or that they could put their differences aside and work towards the greater good of the community. Can you really see that happening? Cambao: I don't see one leader. But many leaders can work on the same goal, or for the same project, even though they have different points of view. But for the benefits of the whole community they can work on a project, and then we can work with many leaders, not only one leader. Q: Do you have any goal to run for any office? Cambao: No. Q: Why not? Cambao: My age and my health do not allow me to do so. Q: But if not for your age and your health, would you consider it? Cambao: I think I'm more suitable in the social service field. Two weeks ago I just went to talk to a group of parents at PS 69, and today I have many other schools that want to invite me to talk to parents. So hopefully that can help the newcomers to know the America better, and then they can make themselves…adjust themselves…to fit into this country. And this society. Q: When you look back at your life, do you think you are an American success story? Cambao: I don't think so. Q: Why not? Cambao: Many people define the 'success story'….you have to…in Chinese term for Mandarin: (explains in Mandarin -- Four things. You need to have a house. Have a car, have a wife, and children.). I only have two. Q: Okay. (Voices overlap here). Cambao: Four things. You need to have a house. Have a car, have a wife, and children. I only have the last two. I didn't have a house. I didn't have a car. I don't define success by that way. I believe I can live comfortable and I treat people the way I hope people will treat me. In this term, I'm so happy to see that happen to me. For instance, I lost my job. Partly I believe that the way I demonstrate myself, people…not everybody likes me. And myself, I follow the philosophy that I'm not here to please everybody. I think the right thing is right, and I will do that. And after I lost the job, many people who know me, they call and they share and they offer me…let me know information to get a new job. And I found that a lot of people did that for me. Q: So when you look back at the years you've lost in Vietnam, your golden years, in your thirties, when you were in the education camp, very difficult years, are you bitter at all? Cambao: Of course. I don't want to mention that thing, because it brings the sad memories back to me. Q: So what do you think is most important for you to pass on to your children? Cambao: I told my son and my daughter to be an honorable person, and also you need to think about what you promise to people. When you promise something, you need to keep your word. These are the two things I passed on to my children. And I strongly believe at this point…I thought my son was able to handle this. I don't know about my daughter yet. I hope that when she graduates from college and when she goes to work and faces real life, I will see what happens to her. Q: Is there anything that I have not asked you that you want to tell us? Cambao: I have a lot of things to tell but I don't think it's appropriate to put in here. [End Interview] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕請先講一下你的姓名，以及你是哪里人。 Cambao：我叫Cambao de Duong。我來自南越西貢。 問：你能否跟我們講一下你在越南的生活？ Cambao：好的。我是越南出生的華僑。我在越南讀書長大，後來在越南西貢和Kien Tuong教書。我曾擔任西貢一間學校的校長。我在教師學院的語言學校任教直至1975年4月30日。因爲我受雇于南越軍隊，所以能讓我參加十天新政府的研討會已經算不錯了。 問：先打斷一下。你說你的父母都是中國人。你父母是不是從中國去了越南？ Cambao：是的。 問：作爲在越南長大的中國人，你的生活同一般的越南人有什麽不同嗎？ Cambao：我想沒有什麽差別，因爲我們住的那個地方有中國人和越南人。因此，我們沒有語言障礙，大家都很友善。 問：你在家裏講什么語言？在學校裏都學了些什么？ Cambao：在家裏，我們通常講自己的方言---Chao Chow。有時我們也講很多其他的語言，比如越南話。有時我們講廣州話。但在學校，我受了三種教學系統的教育---中文，法文，和越南語。主要是越南語和中文。在中文學校，我學習國語；在越南學校，我當然學越南語。 問：那你不覺得同那些越南本地的越南人有什麽不同嗎？你的朋友和你的同事都是不同的人，都是中國人和越南人。 Cambao：是的。我們在一起相處，我在越南的學校教了很多年書。而且，我教的是越南文學。我講流利的越南語，和越南人一樣流利。因此，沒有任何人會覺得我和其他人有什麽不一樣。 問：戰爭期間在越南長大，這對你的生活有什么影響嗎？ Cambao：當然。由於是戰爭時期，我被征軍。我在那裏接受了一年的訓練。在那時，我成爲了一名軍官，中尉。因此在1975年之後---，我是說，4月30日---，我被關進了勞改營。 問：一些人可能不知道1975年4月30日發生了什么事情。 Cambao：1975年4月30日是南越政府倒臺的日子。北越佔領了南越。從此國家統一了。南方人不得不忍受新政府的政策。正是因爲這個原因，很多人逃離了越南。我想在那之後大約有兩百萬人離開了越南。 問：作爲在越南生活的華人，在1975年4月30日後，這個事件是否影響到你的家人或你個人的生活？ Cambao：它對我個人生活的影響有若干個原因。其一，我還在軍隊裏。其二，我有中國血統。其三，我有很好的教育背景。 問：你是在哪一支軍隊裏？ Cambao：我在Thu Duc接受訓練，是一所後備役軍官培訓學校。實際上，我沒有參加過戰鬥。 問：你是在南越的軍隊裏，不是北方的共產黨。 Cambao：是的。 問：75年之後發生了什么事情？ Cambao：我被送到新政府的集中營改造。那是一場鬥爭。那裏的生活很艱苦。我在那裏待了三年多。我必須面對很多困難，比如沒有食物，生病沒有藥吃。我從一個強健的人變得很虛弱。我的體重減輕了很多。我大約減輕了五十磅。 問：你那時有多大年紀？ Cambao：我進集中營的時候大概是32歲。 問：你當時已經成家了嗎？ Cambao：是的。大概在被關的四個月前，我剛剛結了婚。我不得不離開我的太太。我兒子是在我被關在集中營的時候出生的。 問：你認爲那個時候你太太的感受如何？ Cambao：她當然吃了不少苦。我尊敬她能夠一直等我。在那時，很多人冒險逃離越南。她有很多機會能夠離開，但她沒有走，一直等到我出來。 問：爲什么你在集中營關了三年後還能活下來，而很多人卻沒有？ Cambao：我堅信我爲了人們做了很多好事。我沒有做過任何傷害別人的事情。作爲一個執教人員，我不僅向我的學生傳授了很多知識，而且也教他們要成爲正直的人，以後好爲社會服務---即使是新的政府。我的學生都理解我，他們也相信我。 問：那段時期，你是否知道了自己的實力？ Cambao：我學會了一件事情：如果堅信一些事情，而且做正確的事情，你會實現你的目標的。 問：三年後，你被釋放之後，你的生活怎么樣？ Cambao：在那個時候，很多人，包括教師，離開越南逃離到其他國家。越南人需要教師。因此，新政府，所謂的越共(Viet Cong)，釋放了我，讓我在一所高中教課。我又成爲了一名高中教師，在那裏教了三年。 問：現在你的全家是否和你一起住在美國？ Cambao：我和我的小家庭。我的家人和親戚仍然在那裏，我的兄弟姐妹，侄女和外甥還在那裏。 問：你是怎樣來到美國的？ Cambao：我太太的兄弟姐妹在美國。他們申請我過來的。同時，我也一直在找機會出來。我試了許多年，坐船。但都沒有成功。所以，我就決定等他們的申請。後來，我非常幸運，因爲美國政府發現我曾爲南越政府工作，因此在我申請之後他們便很快讓我來到這國家。 問：自從你來到美國之後，你是否有機會回越南？ Cambao：沒有，完全沒有。 問：你想回去嗎？ Cambao：我想，但不是現在。 問：你是哪一年來美國的？ Cambao：我是1983年年底來美國的。 問：你去了哪里？ Cambao：我立即來到紐約市。 問：你爲什么決定住在紐約市？ Cambao：我決定留在紐約市有以下一些原因。首先，我有一個親戚住在紐約市。其次，我覺得紐約市是世界首都，以及--- 問：那你是1983年來紐約的嗎？你不是難民。 Cambao：我是難民。 問：你是難民身份？ Cambao：是的。 問：但你是---，有一個專案---，是叫什么來的？ Cambao：叫ODP---全稱有秩序離開的專案(Orderly Departure Program)。但我必須要在泰國Panat Nikhom難民營待一段時間，直到1983年底。我來這裏是因爲我太太的兄弟住在紐約市。我猜想因爲我的背景美國政府把我作爲難民而接收我進來的。 問：然後你決定要留在紐約市。 Cambao：是的。 問：爲什么？ Cambao：有幾個原因。第一，我有個親戚住在紐約市。第二，我認爲紐約市是世界的首都，是個多樣化的城市，這裏的人來自全世界的各個國家。同時，我想我們不會受到歧視。最後，我想我在紐約市比較容易找到工作。 問：你找工作容易嗎？ Cambao：容易。我只來了不久就在中城找到了第一份工作。 問：你是怎樣找到第一份工作的？ Cambao：一個就業服務機構讓我去一些地方面試，但是沒有效果。最後，我找到的第一份工是在曼哈頓中城送外賣。當然，工資非常少，每小時3美元，比最低工資還要少。這我是知道的。但我必須生存，養家糊口。我必須打工，即使工錢很少。還好，除了工資以外，我也有小費。因此我能夠以此度日。 問：從一個懂好幾種語言、受過高等教育的教師到一個紐約市送外賣的中年人，你的感受如何？ Cambao：我知道，如果沒有工作，我不能養活我的家人。所以，我不得不做很多人認爲很低下、廉價的工作。我想我先做一些低下、不需要任何技能的工作，以後等我英文有了提高之後再找更好的工作。 問：你剛來這裏的時候懂多少英文？ Cambao：我剛來的時候只懂一點點英文。所以，我要去YMCA上ESL課。我上了六個月的ESL課程。那個時候，我在送外賣，有機會和別人交流。儘管我的辭彙量有限，但我想我那個時候講得還算流利。所以，當我找第二份工作去面試的時候，我的英文對我有很大幫助。 問：在你來美國之前，你對美國的印象如何？你覺得你在這裏的生活會是怎樣？ Cambao：開始的時候，我沒有太多想來美國後的情況。我的法語要好一些。但我沒有其他選擇。於是，我就到了這裏。我知道這裏是自由的地方。那是我所向往的。而且，這個國家有很多機會---我發現這是真的。來這個國家我沒有任何惋惜。 問：即使你到這裏的時候送外賣，你仍然相信你在這個國家有很多機會。 Cambao：我知道我是新來的。別人都不認識我。當他們認識我之後，他們會雇我做更加適合我的工作。當然，在餐館做了很短一段時間之後，我發現餐館不提供健康保險。然後，我就想找一份有健康保險的工作。當我想辭掉餐館工作的時候，他們想讓我轉做全職。我忘了告訴你我第一份工作是半職的。我每天做多長時間取決於餐館的需要。有時是四個小時，有時更長。 問：你在那裏做了多久？後來又是怎樣找到下一份工作的？ Cambao：我在那裏做了兩個多月。後來，我知道唐人街一個非營利組織在招人。於是，我就去那裏申請，即使我那時還不知道怎樣坐地鐵去唐人街。 問：1983年紐約有很多亞洲人。你覺得自己是中國人，還是越南人？這對你是個問題嗎？ Cambao：我並不太想自己到底是越南人還是中國人，儘管在那之前我有考慮過這個問題。但在那之後，我想我找到了答案---這無關緊要。越南人也好，中國人也好，始終都是人。所以，我是同樣看待各種各樣人的。同時，我也希望別人如此看待我，無論是什麽人種，教育背景，或種族。 問：如果我問你，Duong先生，你是哪里人，你會怎樣回答？ Cambao：我會說我是越南人。如果別人問我‘你是誰？’他們是想問你是從哪個國家來的，我可能會說我是越南華僑。 問：你下一個工作是做---？ Cambao：我開始在一個非營利組織做最基礎的工作，叫做‘客戶專家’，幫人們填申請表格。我涉及的專案是難民職業培訓。那是在船民時期之後，很多越南人、柬埔寨人，和老撾人來到紐約市。所以，那個機構需要找一個不僅能講英文，而且能將越南話和中文，瞭解他們文化的人來幫助他們。所以，他們雇我做這些事情。但很快他們知道我是搞教育的，於是他們允許我教一些課程，比如會計課。儘管我不懂會計，我花時間學，我教得很好，被晉升到經驗教師的職位。後來，他們又要我教電腦。我必須學習那些方面的知識。因此，我決定再回學校學習。後來，我在Hunter學院獲得電腦科學的學士學位。 問：你爲什么喜歡教書？ Cambao：我喜歡教書是因爲在我小的時候有一個學期我輟學。我的校長關心所有的學生和他們的教育---。因爲我在那個學校是個很優秀的學生，我在那裏經常考試第一名。他到我家和我家人談話，我叔叔就讓我回學校上學了。他沒有收任何學費，因爲我在那裏是個優秀的學生。我把他作爲一個好榜樣。他幫助了很多人。於是，我決定要成爲一名教師。正因爲此，我在越南上了教師學院。在越南的時候，我大部分時間都在教書。 問：所以，你下一份工作是教難民。 Cambao：是的。 問：你是否認爲你的背景使你成爲一名更好的教師嗎？ Cambao：第一是我的背景。第二，我非常想幫助其他難民。通過我自己的經歷，我知道難民的生活有多么艱苦。每個人都要靠自己。因爲我自己的經歷，我想幫助其他人，這樣他們不至於走我走過的彎路。 問：在那時你在紐約生活得很舒服，是不是？還過得去？ Cambao：我想是的。 問：你這份工做了有多久？ Cambao：我在那個機構做了十七年多。在那裏的時候，我曾多次被晉升。從技能指導到專案協調員，到資源開發員，到專案主任，到機構協調員，後來是機構行政副主任。 問：作爲主任，你是否嘗試實行一些改革？ Cambao：有，我們做了很多改進。因爲對於我來講，膚色和背景不是太重要。我覺得我們大家都是人。因此，我沒有把資金全部用來服務亞洲人，也有其他非亞洲人。 問：那時你是在唐人街工作？ Cambao：是的。 問：唐人街對你意味著什么？是不是僅是一個工作的地方，還是說你覺得像是自己的家？你是否感覺和其他同樣背景的人很親近？ Cambao：我認爲唐人街是一個非常好的地方。很熱鬧。即使不是非常乾淨，還是人們旅遊、工作的好去處，尤其對那些喜歡在這裏吃飯的人。 問：請再談一下和你工作的都是一些什么樣的人。十七年做同一份工實在是很久。是什么使你在那裏呆那么久？ Cambao：我說過唐人街是一個好地方。除此之外，我能運用我的技巧和知識教學。而且，我能夠幫助很多新來的人，包括一些社工。我忘了跟你講，除了電腦科學以外，我還在紐約大學獲得了社會工作碩士學位。我能夠幫助人們改變。當別人遇到虐待兒童的問題的時候，我知道如果解決，而且我講他們的語言。這樣，我給他們提建議，這樣他們的孩子就不會被兒童服務管理處的人帶走。 問：你剛到這裏的時候，有沒有什么組織幫助你適應美國的生活？ Cambao：沒有，或者我不知道。我參加了很多協會，志願爲人們服務。我想我已經足夠成熟，能夠幫助別人，只不過有語言障礙。我也很瞭解這個國家的文化。 問：你是怎樣瞭解這裏的文化的？ Cambao：我有讀書，我在我的國家讀了很多書。當然，那些是越南文或中文書。所以，在我來到紐約時，我發現紐約並不是很難適應。 問：在那個時候---，你能再跟我講一下你來的那個時候唐人街是什么樣的嗎？在80年代。 Cambao：讓我想一想，首先，人還是很多，但地方很小。那個時候，我想，和南越西貢南部的Cho Lon比起來，曼哈頓唐人街大概有七萬華人。這裏大概有七萬華人。對於我來講還是很少的。那個時候，唐人街的華人都是老人。他們講臺山話或廣州話。唐人街差不多在Canal街以南，到Worth街和Center街。 問：讓我們詳細談一下1983年你來這裏時唐人街的情況。 Cambao：實際上是84年。 問：84年。 Cambao：我於1984年3月中旬來到唐人街。在那之前，我還不知道有唐人街。我以爲唐人街是一個很小的地方，但很熱鬧。是人們旅遊、工作和就餐的好地方。唐人街有很多人，很擁擠。80年代人口普查統計曼哈頓唐人街大概有三萬華人，而1975年以前南越西貢的Cho-lon有七十萬華人。所以，我覺得是個小地方。但我認爲是我工作的好地方，因爲我講那裏的語言，包括唐人街講越南語的人。就在那個時候，唐人街就有三、四家越南雜貨店。Mulberry街有一家，這裏有兩家。一家在Bayard和Mulberry交口處。我覺得唐人街很好，但我也有看到消極的一面，太髒。我聽說這裏很亂，經常出事，包括唐人街的幫派。他們有各種各樣的名稱，而且那個時候已經有越南幫了，剛剛興起的。 問：你是否覺得自己屬於這裏？你在唐人街感覺舒服嗎？ Cambao：是的，我和我的同事工作很愉快。儘管我的同事有黑人或白人，但大多數是亞洲人，很多是從香港、臺灣和中國大陸來的華人。還有從新加坡、菲律賓、韓國來的亞裔員工。 問：你有沒有去過美國的其他城市，還是說你總是在這裏呆著？ Cambao：我去其他城市都是因爲參加那裏的討論會或會議。我去過西海岸；我去過北部和南部的很多州和城市。但是基於很多原因，我最喜歡的是紐約。在這裏，我能看到所有我想要看的，但其他很多城市都沒有。 問：在80年代，越南戰爭還是有很多爭議，你是否因此受到歧視？作爲越南人，人們是否對你有偏見或歧視？ Cambao：也許沒有，因爲我是越南人。關於你的問題---歧視---，我有這種感覺，比如別人以爲我是無家可歸的人。我幫自己和家人領一些冬天穿的舊大衣，公共汽車司機不讓我上車。因爲我的教育背景，我知道要讓老人、婦女和兒童先上車。我在最後。公共汽車司機在我腳踏在公共汽車門檻的時候就把門關上了。還好，車上很多其他的人對他大聲喊，“讓他進來”。因爲我扛了一個垃圾袋，黑色的，別人給我用來放衣服的，司機以爲我是個流浪漢。所以，他不讓我上車。我想他不知道我到底是中國人，還是韓國人，越南人，或日本人。我們看上去都很象。 問：你爲什么要去那裏領免費的衣服呢？---是救世軍嗎？你經常去那種地方嗎？ Cambao：我想是美國天主教慈善機構(USCC)組織的。我在USCC的同事告訴我的地址，我去那裏去取。我想不是救世軍。 問：剛來美國的時候，你的經濟狀況如何？你有沒有帶錢過來？還是說過來的時候沒有帶任何東西？ Cambao：我來的時候沒有帶任何東西。但我有得到USCC的幫助。那是政府的錢。他們幫助我向那個機構申請。開始的時候，我家裏每個人都收到了兩百美元的資助。所以，在我剛到這裏的時候，那兩百美元暫時幫助了我，後來我就開始工作，自己掙錢。 問：你剛來的時候住在哪里？ Cambao：我在---，我和住在曼哈頓Upper West Side的親戚住在一起。 問：政府沒有幫你找房子，找住的地方。 Cambao：沒有，根本沒有。 問：這有沒有使你産生什么自由的土地的印象？ Cambao：我想獨立。如果政府那個時候能幫助我，我會很感激的。我想那種政策已經變了。政府不能幫助我太多，所以我決定要靠自己。 問：這裏較小的社區。我還想提一下，唐人街在那期間有殺手的問題，亞裔社區基本上---。華人和越南人社區被邀請參加了很多會議，甚至在警察局總部。我知道第五區開展了一個叫西貢任務的活動。你知道，‘越南玫瑰’在越戰期間是指性病。‘越南玫瑰’指美國士兵因與越南女孩子性交引起的病。所以，我認爲‘西貢任務’是另外一個不公正對待唐人街越南人的事情。因此，我強烈提出要禁止使用這個稱呼。最後，警察總部同意了我的意見，向警區和警察局長下令禁止使用這個稱呼。那是一件事情。我還參加了其他一些活動。比如，我被聘爲教育局長的顧問。那個時候有一個15歲的美亞混血兒的故事。他的故事曾在13頻道上報道過。一個15歲的小男孩來到美國，被人收養，和養父母住在一起。他在一所高中上九年級。以前，他在越南受歧視，因爲他是美亞混血兒。他看起來象美國人，在越南學校受到虐待。他在越南唯讀了兩年書，然後來到這個國家，在學校裏上九年級。但他因爲聽不懂，後來就輟學了。他加入了殺手幫派。我是通過他的社工和13頻道的文章瞭解到這些的。因此，我在一次理事顧問委員會會議上發言。我說向新來的人、移民和難民提供教育需要考慮他們的教育背景而不是他們的年齡。我想那個理事當時也同意我的意見。現在，那些新來的人在市里入學之前都要經過測試。同時，城市教育系統繼續向新到這裏的孩子提供雙語教學。我也和一些朋友一起創辦了雙語學校。現在在東百老彙末端，和Grant街的交叉處，PS 134。這是一所非常成功的學校；已經辦了五年了。在今年的全市四年級閱讀測試上獲得全市第四名。這個財政年度早些時候，美國教育局秘書Paige博士曾到學校訪問。 我相信，即使對於那些新來的人，只要我們花時間去做，我們一定能改變他們的。 問：很多教師剛到美國的時候，爲了賺錢維持生活而非常努力地工作。爲什么你要花這么多的時間在社區裏做這些志願工作，而沒有做些有報酬的工作來維持家裏的生活？ Cambao：我確實工作很努力。有時我不止做一份工。我晚上和周末都有做工。我們拿現金。有一次，我去新澤西幫我的朋友賣手錶。他們每天付我五十美元。我相信教育和社會公益服務是能夠改變我們社會的兩個因素。因此，一有機會，我會這樣做的，而且我相信我有能力做這些事情，於是我有參與，並且加入了很多機構。 問：你在工作中有沒有遇到什么困難？ Cambao：有的。比如，我不太注意自己的種族背景，但別人有時沒有這樣想。我是越南人，別人卻說：“啊，你是中國人”。我相信那些中國人會認爲我是越南人。當然，美國人不會把我當做美國人，對不對？如果別人很有禮貌地像對待亞裔美國人一樣對待我，我會非常感激的。但是，很多時候他們會說‘你是越南人’，或者‘你是中國人’。他們不說，‘你是亞裔美國人’。我希望我能改變這種狀況，希望年輕的一代能夠做更多的事情來改變人們在這個問題上的偏見。 問：要怎樣呢？ Cambao：我不知道。但我認爲如果你不去做，你永遠也不會實現。這就是我的觀點。我們要去做，然後看是否會有所改變。 問：像紐約這樣一個多元化的城市，你認爲各個種族在這裏相處融洽嗎？ Cambao：種族相處融洽---，這是我們提出的問題。這取決於我們如何定義‘融洽’。如果我們說有時我們有爭論是因爲種族差異，這對我來說是正常的。我不想太快下結論，在某些情況下人們動不動就說是歧視。像種族歧視或其他什么歧視，如果沒有證據，我不會妄下結論的。 問：我想再談一下後來的事情。 Cambao：好的。 問：談一下2001年9月11日。那個時候你在哪里？ Cambao：我在唐人街這裏。我目睹兩座姊妹塔倒塌，我非常傷心。當看到飛機撞到第二座塔的時候，根據我在越戰中的經歷，我知道這不是事故。我命令學校的員工和學生---大約有兩百人---離校回家。但我上面還有個老闆，行政主任---她在我之後進來。她用內部對講機跟我說：“那是個事故”。我告訴她，“我相信那不是事故。事故不會接連發生兩次。”她說，我們不能讓大家回去，因爲如果政府或者資助機構查起來，我們怎么辦。當時，我不能回答她的問題，因爲我認爲人的生命比那個更重要。於是，我讓員工和學生離開學校。一些員工在樓梯裏被她截住，只好回到教室，那天晚些時候才回家。我待到兩點後才走。然後，我在唐人街吃的午餐。因爲地鐵不通，我很晚才到家。我認爲那天是很悲傷的一天。你能看到，在那以後，整個國家，特別是城市的經濟形勢越來越糟。很多人失去了工作。作爲社會公益服務機構，我們面臨的困難更多。 很多人來找到我們，儘管他們沒有資格得到我們的服務。但我不得不花一些時間來幫助他們。我在唐人街工作的地方同我現在的工作地點相比離我家更近，我經常很晚才回家，因爲我不得不花更多的時間爲我的客人服務。 問：9月11日有沒有影響你的工作？ Cambao：有。它使我的工作更加難做。因爲，正如我先前所講，有很多人來找我，儘管他們不夠資格享受我們的服務。 問：作爲一個機構，你是否有想辦法搞到更多的資金來幫助更多的人？ Cambao：有的。除了搞我自己的專案，監管機構及其一部分運作以外，我們都有花一些時間找更多的資金。我爲機構搞到了$300,000美元的資助。我從芝加哥收到一張支票。一個叫McCormick論壇基金會的機構給了我們$300,000美元，用來服務那些受到9/11影響的人。他們看到我們的專案是最好的專案之一。我們被選中獲得他們的資助。而且當時我的老闆和一個聯邦政府機構有聯繫，我們也從那裏得到了資助。 問：你是否認爲你的個人背景，以及你所親身經歷過的各種困難，使你有能力應付類似的情況？ Cambao：我的確是這么認爲的。因爲我經歷過越戰，爲了在越戰中免受傷害，我對一些聲音和一些事情非常敏感。我在新政權---南越新政府---的統治下生活了三年，被關在集中營，這些使我能夠應付各種各樣的困難。 問：在1975年之後，如果你的生活未曾改變，你還想離開越南嗎？ Cambao：我當然不會的。甚至在75年變化之後，我仍然堅信那裏是個好地方，我能利用我的知識幫助別人。但是，新的政權並不接受我。他們不想讓我留在那裏。所以，我必須離開。 問：你認爲你別無選擇。 Cambao：我沒有其他的選擇。 問：你有沒有覺得在某種意義上你已失去了你的家？ Cambao：經濟上是如此。我失去了那裏很多的財産。我失去了那裏很多地方。我擁有那裏的土地和房屋。這就是我來到這個國家的原因。我沒有買黃金，很多其他的亞洲人和中國人買了很多黃金。他們能用黃金買一條船逃離越南。我沒有那么做。 問：我說的‘家’不是指房屋或財産，而是一種歸屬感，因爲你家裏兩代人都在越南。從某種意義上來講，就好像你失去了你的國家。 Cambao：沒錯。感謝你能理解這些。 問：那你在紐約有沒有重建你的家？ Cambao：在你所指的‘家’的含義上，是的。 問：你是否感覺屬於這裏，在這裏覺得舒適，你會不會在這裏渡過餘生，以及讓你的後代也在這裏生活嗎？ Cambao：目前來講，我的回答是肯定的。我不知道將來會發生什么事情。 問：跟我們講一下你現在的工作。 Cambao：好的。我現在在爲一個猶太裔美國人組織工作。它已在布魯克林區建立了的新的分支機搆，我去年受雇負責布魯克林區分支機搆的運作。這是一個就業服務機構。直到去年年底，我們幫助所有的人。由於缺乏資金，我們現在只能幫助享受公共救濟的人。 問：我知道你已不在唐人街工作，但你在這個社區呆了近二十年。據你觀察，這裏大的變化有哪些？ Cambao：實際上是十九年。我已經在這個國家呆了十九年。我看到了唐人街很多的變化。即使我不在唐人街工作，我還有到唐人街來。我志願擔任東越南－柬埔寨－老撾－華裔協會委員會主席。我經常去那裏監管書，以及向年長和貧困的人提供服務。與1984年3月我來唐人街那時比起來，這裏的確有變化。我看到人口的變化。很多從福建來的人來到唐人街。同時，我通過參與2000年的人口普查得知，有很多沒有身份的人住在紐約市。他們家在這裏，但去其他城市或不在市里工作。他們在唐人街必須有個落腳處。我知道---，你也許注意到幾天前的報紙上登過，在Bowery 81號四樓，整層樓大概有兩、三千英尺，有一百多個人住在那裏。第一，人口變了。當然，語言也變了。過去，唐人街是講臺山話和廣州話。但是現在，很多地方逐漸使用福州話和國語。我看到有更多的商店，唐人街已擴展到Canal街以北，很大一片地方。但Canal街以南的變化不大。在Canal街以西已擴展至百老彙。還有一個大的變化，也是我非常喜歡的一個積極的變化---跟過去相比，唐人街變得更乾淨了。我要感謝由Danny Lee，Eva Tan，Bill Lam和其他唐人街的生意人領導的唐人街清潔委員會。 我看到很多唐人街的積極的事情。儘管現在還有幫會，但他們不像過去那樣活躍。因此，在最近五年裏，犯罪率連續不斷下降，不止五年。 問：你是否認爲，唐人街地區獲得的衛生、交通方面的資金要少於其他地區？很明顯，同曼哈頓其他區域相比，這裏十分擁擠，而且很髒。你認爲是什么原因？ Cambao：因爲我們沒有提高我們的呼聲讓人們聽到，尤其沒有讓那些任職官員聽到。他們以爲我們沒有這種需要。一些機構確實有申請過，但他們沒有足夠的能力使資金機構相信唐人街有這種需要。 問：你是否認爲唐人街社區和居民有向有關部門反映過情況以促使社區的變化，還是說他們更多地在關心自己？ Cambao：坦率地講，我覺得他們沒有像我所期待那樣地團結，使社區變得強大，使資金機構相信他們代表唐人街社區，爲華人社區爭取利益。一些機構只關心他們機構自己的運作，他們想獲得他們所提供服務方面的資金，而不是爲了唐人街這個整體。這是很容易理解的。因爲他們都在從事自己的行業，他們只是爭取他們業內的資金。我希望唐人街最終會有個帶頭人把大家團結起來，使我們像在越南的華人社區一樣強大。他們有很大的勢力。他們如果想要做什么事情，領導出面以後，沒有人會拒絕。但在這裏，好像每個人都是領導，又好像我們沒有領導。 問：是否有可能---，唐人街有這么多不同的團體，如你所講，現在有福州人，還有廣州人、臺山人，有很多很多不同的團體。這個領導將是誰呢？ Cambao：當前，我看到福州社區有一些好的迹象。他們已經快做到了。他們開始向他們的社區提供服務，比如ESL。這是一件好事情。除了非營利組織以外，你是否有看到其他機構在做這些？其他團體就沒有這種事情發生---我是指講其他方言的團體。只是福州人。我在他們的社區裏看到這些，因爲一些人（一定級別的政府代表）比較關心，去那裏慰問他們。每當任職官員需要錢的時候，他們會去找他們。這是雙向互通的。如果他們支援一些人，當然反過來他們也會從他們那裏得到很多東西來支援他們的社區建設。 問：因爲距離近的原因，我們知道，9月11日以後唐人街蒙受了巨大的商業損失。你是否認爲兩年之後的現在唐人街已經恢復了嗎？商業恢復到9月11日之前正常的狀況，還是說仍處於重建階段？ Cambao：表面上看，我認爲餐企業已經恢復了。但是，我想衣廠，以及唐人街其他主要産業，目前尚未恢復。 問：你認爲他們會恢復嗎？ Cambao：據我瞭解，儘管我不是做那一行的，鑒於貿易方面的問題，中央政府已和一些國家簽署了協定。我認爲服裝業不會再回到紐約市，尤其是唐人街。利用美國的勞動力要比從墨西哥或中國進口服裝的費用昂貴得多。因此，我認爲是不會恢復的。一些人應該考慮到需要改變唐人街的服務業，或者唐人街的商業模式，這樣才能使唐人街成爲一個更美好的地方。吸引旅客來這裏是方式之一。 問：你是否認爲未來的唐人街能夠團結起來，所有不同的團體會有一個強有力的領導？或者他們能夠把自己的不同之處放在一旁，爲社區的利益而共同努力。你認爲這些會發生嗎？ Cambao：我看不到一個帶頭人。但是，很多領導也能夠爲共同的事業朝同樣的目標努力，即使他們有不同的觀點。但爲了整個社區的福利，他們能夠集中做一件事情，然後我們能與很多領導一起工作，而不僅是一個領導。 問：你有競選什么職務的想法嗎？ Cambao：沒有。 問：爲什么沒有呢？ Cambao：我的年齡和健康狀況不允許我做這些。 問：但如果沒有年齡和健康的因素，你會考慮嗎？ Cambao：我想我更適合做社會公益服務。兩個星期前，我去PS 69和一些家長談話。現在有很多學校想邀請我和學生的家長談話。希望這樣會使新到的人更加瞭解美國，這樣他們能夠使自己---，調整自己，適應這個國家和社會。 問：當你回顧在美國的經歷，你是否認爲它是一個成功的故事？ Cambao：我不這么認爲。 問：爲什么？ Cambao：很多人對‘成功的故事’下過定義---，你必須---（用中文普通話解釋，一共有四樣：房子、汽車、太太和孩子）。我只有兩樣。 問：好的。（對話重叠在一起）。 Cambao：四樣東西。你需要有房子，有汽車，有太太和孩子。我只有後兩樣。我沒有房子，也沒有汽車。我對成功的定義是不同的。我相信我能生活得舒適，我按照我希望別人對待我的方式來對待別人。從這個角度來看，我很高興我做到了。例如，我失去了我的工作。從中，我至少認爲我做事的方式，別人---，並不是每一個人都喜歡我。對於我本人，我的原則是我不會取悅每一個人。如果我認爲是正確的事情，我會去做的。在我失去工作之後，很多認識我的人給我打電話，告訴我找工的資訊。我發覺很多人在幫助我。 問：當你回顧在越南失去的那幾年，你的黃金時代，三十多歲的時候被關在勞教營，非常艱難的時期，你是否有仇恨呢？ Cambao：當然。但我不想提那件事情，因爲它總是會給我悲傷的記憶。 問：那你認爲你想要你的孩子知道的最重要的東西是什麽？ Cambao：我讓我的兒子和女兒做一個高尚的人，而同時要記住向別人做的許諾。當你答應別人某樣事情的時候，你要履行諾言。我教給我的孩子這兩樣事情。此時，我堅信---，我想我的兒子能夠做到這個。我的女兒目前我還不知道。我希望當她大學畢業後工作、面對現實生活的時候，我能夠看到她做的怎樣。 問：有沒有什么我尚未問到你需要補充的嗎？ Cambao：我有很多事情要講，但我認爲在這裏說不太適當。 訪問結束 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cambao de Duong 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Selina Chan Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2003-12-15 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation nurse St. Vincent's Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: It is December 15. I am sitting with Selina Chan of St. Vincent's Hospital. If you can, just for the record, say your age and your full name, both in English and in Chinese. Chan: My name is Selina Chan. I was born in 1950, okay, so I'm fifty-three years old. [Repeats in Chinese]. Q: You don't need to do everything in two languages, but I just wanted to get your Chinese name. Chan: Sure. Q: Can you tell me where you are from? Chan: Original, I was born in Shanghai. Then I emigrate to Hong Kong. I was practically grow up in Hong Kong. Then I come to the United States in 1975. Q: At what age did you go to Hong Kong? Chan: At my age nine. Nine years. So I was born after that Communist party coming to China. So we didn't have a difficulty time to go to the Hong Kong at that time. So because my father was in Hong Kong so luckily we can apply the visa and went to the Hong Kong at that time. Q: So in 1959 you legally went to Hong Kong? Chan: Legally leave China. It's not legally enter to the Hong Kong. It looks like the old history about the boat men, I go for the same thing at that time. I legally leave Shanghai, go to Macao, and take the boats, and escape to the Hong Kong. Q: And why was your father already living in Hong Kong at the time? Chan: He's a sailor. Q: A sailor? Chan: Yeah. He working in the ship. So that's why, when the time happening, so he was actually down in the Hong Kong side. America. So he never went to the China. I was born after then, the Communist party. Q: So 1949. It was already ten years since the Communist take over. So what was your life like in China? Do you remember? Chan: Yeah, I do remember. Well, you know that childhood life is always memorable. And actually, I was in China, we have not really that bad because we do have getting the money and the things sent back from Hong Kong. So we really should say that we do live quite comfortably. Nothing look like what we read as life in China. Q: So your father was always traveling. He was not in Shanghai much. Chan: No. Q: And why did he not want to return to Shanghai but wanted to take the family out of Shanghai? Chan: Well, the main thing is that he was working with the Holland Shipping Company, okay? So if he leave the job, and he went to the Shanghai, it would be not easy for him to get a job. That's first of all. Second of all, you know, it would be much, because our other family member look like my cousin, my aunt, my uncle, they all immigrate to go to the Hong Kong. So that's why decided we leave the Shanghai and go to Hong Kong. Q: So it was not because of political reasons? Chan: No, no, no, no. Nothing at all like that. Q: So your family didn't go through a lot of hardship after 1949? Chan: No. Yeah. We should say we are very lucky on it. Q: So then your entire family - that means, you, your mother, and all your siblings, went to Hong Kong? Chan: I only have my mother and me, only. So after we went to the Hong Kong my mother give birth to my brother. So it was only two of us. Q: So you went by boat. Chan: Yes. Q: Tell me about that journey. Did you pay somebody - how is that done? Chan: Well, actually, it's - we went to the journey twice. The first time we went to the boat, was hiding underneath of the boat, and turn around the captain, he is a drug addict, so he keep on busy taking the drug and not sailing the boat. So we were caught by the police, actually. I went to the Macao, we stay in the jail for overnight. So next day my father come over to Macao, get us out. So the second time we pay even higher price to get a more reliable captain to escape to the Hong Kong. So I always remember where we have the whole boat, everybody was stuck in the bottom of the ship, so a lot of people was throw up and vomiting, sea sick. So I was only nine years old, and my mother was six months pregnant. She have really difficulty time to walk. I was guiding my mother. And we need to climb the mountain from one side of the mountain, climb the mountain and go into the other side, get into the second boat, and we went to the Hong Kong. Q: This is in Macao, you're talking about. Now how many people were on this boat, about? Chan: Is about hundred peoples. Is about hundred peoples. So when we went to the Hong Kong, we were stopped by the police. Okay, actually, the people is grouping us together, me and my mother and two other old couple. We are grouped together. So four of us. So when the police stop us, the police usually would go to the youngest one to ask where you come from. So I was just nine years old. I just can able to answer, say, 'Well, I come from Hong Kong.' So they said, 'Well, where you going?' I say, 'Well, we going to have lunch with my grandparents.' So the police let us go. This is way back to 1959. So we could able safely to get to my father's place. Q: But you only spoke Shanghai-ese at the time. Chan: Well, I stay in the Macao for a month to wait for the opportunity to go to Hong Kong. So I pick up the language in Macao for Cantonese. Q: Do you remember how much you paid for the journey from Shanghai to Macao and then Macao to Hong Kong? Chan: Yeah, I think at that time we pay close to $3,000. That's 1959. It's quite a lot of money. Q: Three thousand U.S. dollars? Chan: No, no, no. Hong Kong money. But still is quite a lot. This is 1959. Q: So you were sneaking out, basically. It's not legal. Chan: Right. Q: But then once you got to Hong Kong, then your father already had a house there? Chan: Apartment. For there, for us. Q: And what status did you have there? Chan: Well, it's still illegal. But later on, because after you live in Hong Kong certain amount of year, you can apply for the residency in Hong Kong. So I do basically have my school training - education - in Hong Kong. Until the high school. Then I went to the nursing school in Hong Kong. Q: So your father continued to work as a sailor. Often out of Hong Kong. Chan: Yes. Q: And you lived with your mother and then, soon, a younger brother. Chan: Yes. Q: And what about the rest of your extended family? Where did they go? Chan: I don't know. We have a lot of cousins that live in Hong Kong also. But I still have a cousin in Shanghai, and also my grandparents in Ningpo. That's my mother's side. So we still went back to China to visits. Q: Did you understand what was happening at the time? Were you afraid? Chan: No. Not really. Maybe it's my personality. I'm always looking to have a new adventure, and to see what's going on, on the other side of the world. So to me it look like - it happen very naturally. It's not that much scaring going on. Even the captain of the ship, he say, 'For a young girl look like this, you are very brave. You are not scared at all.' Because a lot of people were so scared in the boats. And I did nothing. And actually, when the time we climb the mountain, I lost my mother. Because she was pregnant, she's difficulty to walk. So they are really rush us, so I have to follow the crowd, move very fast, then turn around - I cannot find my ma. So I'm able to go back and find my mother, until my mother go to the other side of the island. Q: This is in Macao. When you first land, and your boat land on one side and you have to get on the other side. Chan: Right. Right. Q: So what do you think give to you all this strength for a young person? Chan: Well, I think it's the same thing. I will say that I always like to see - I always like to take advantage, to see what is the new things outside the world. That's why I want to see - when I was in Shanghai, I'm always dream, how is my father's life in Hong Kong? Okay. I remember when we took the train to go to Canton, then we need to take the other train to go to the Macao. And my father saw the way my mother walk, and he told me, he said, 'I don't think both of you can get to Hong Kong very safely. I'd better buy the return ticket to go back to Shanghai.' I told my father, I said, 'No. No matter what happened, I want to go to Hong Kong. Take a look on Hong Kong, what's it look like. And finish my dream.' So my father say, 'I'll wait until you sleep at the night time, I tie you up, put you in the train.' I say, 'Fine. I'm not going to sleep the whole night.' I didn't. I sit there whole night, wait for the next day to get the other train to go to the Macao. And it's personality, I should say that. Q: Now why did your father not go back to Shanghai and get you? Was that possible at the time? Chan: Because if he go back to Shanghai - he did go, because it's too many hours for the train - so he did went to the Canton to get us. And he went to the Macao for us together. He make all the arrangements, put us up in the hotel in the Macao, then he went back to Hong Kong. Q: So in 1959 in Hong Kong there were lots of Shanghai-ese at that time. Chan: Yes. Q: Lots of people from China. Chan: Yes. Q: Pretty much everybody illegally. Chan: Yes. Q: So are you able to go to school? Chan: Yes, I did went to the school. But in the beginning always have hard time, because my Cantonese is not that great. And also I don't know English at all, so I do have a difficulty time for a couple - one years. The second year I'm doing very well already. Q: And what school did you go to? Chan: It's only very small private school. It’s in Hong Kong. Is very easy to get in, a one flight school, those kind of set up. It's not a big school system like now. Q: Was it a bilingual school? Chan: They have English class, but it's not that much. Most of the subject is in Chinese. Or in Cantonese. Q: So you learn English as a second language, from a language course, basically. Chan: Right. It's very little. Q: And where in Hong Kong did you and your mother live? Chan: We live in the Kowloon near Hunghom. Q: Hunghom? Chan: - yeah, near the trains - but later on we moved to the Kwung Tong. Q: And how often did you see your father? Chan: He came back home every three months, when the ship is arrive in Hong Kong. And he's still working for the ship company. Q: So your father financially supported the family? Chan: Yes. Q: Your mother worked? Chan: No. With my mother's physical condition not that great. So he most of the time, it look like, every month he have money - she stay in the hospital. She doesn't feel well. So I'm home taking care of my brother, and sometimes we have housekeeper, some time we don't. Q: So what was your life like? Did you feel welcome in Hong Kong? Did you like it? Chan: Yeah. I do. Q: You didn't have problem adjusting? Chan: No. I'm the person is very easy to fit into new surroundings. So I don't have no difficulty time at all. Q: Okay. So you are obviously a nurse today. When was the first time in your life that you think you might want to go into medicine? Chan: Well, way back to when my mother was in the hospital. She do get mistreated by the nursing staff, okay? I did told her at that time - I was in the senior high school - I said, 'Look, don't think you are big shot, can treat a patient like that. Give me couple of years. When I come back I would going to show you what is a good nurse about.' So that's what I make up my mind I want to become going into nursing school. Q: Do you think somewhere in you, you wanted to help your mother? Chan: Yes. I did. But unfortunately my mother pass away. Q: Before you graduate, finished? So you went to nursing school in Hong Kong. Chan: Yes. Q: And did you like it right away? Chan: Well, not really you like it right away. I always remember, because my last name is Chan, every single time, alphabetically - A,B,C - I'm always on the first one in the class. So whenever is new opportunity and new war and new place you need to go, I'm the first one to go. So we went to the nursing school what we call Nethersole - in Hong Kong. So at the time, I was asked PTS, that means first newcomer, after three months they sent me to the GYN unit and after then they sent me on the night shift in the pediatric unit. The only thing we know is wash and change the diaper, and feed the baby. Then after the pediatric unit they sent me to the operating room right away. I went into the operating room, I was completely shocked. I don't know nothing was going on, even that they said, 'Oh, this is appendix surgery.' I would just look at patient's body - where is the appendix? Because we haven't gone into anatomy yet. I don't know what's going on. We do, in the beginning, do have a hard time. So I really think, is that really the job for me? But I did promise my mom I want to be a nurse. To serve the other people. So I did go through. It's not that easy, but you get it over. Q: You didn't want to be a doctor? Chan: When I come to the United States I do have a couple opportunities. They do offer me scholarships and everything, go to the medical school. The thing is, when I come to the United States, I make sure my father quit the job, stay home. I need to send the money back to my father and my brother. So economically I cannot afford. Even I can get a scholarship for myself, then what happen to my father and my brother? They cannot just starve to death waiting for me to finish my medical degree. So sometimes you have to see the balance. So it's okay, you know? The nursing is the same thing as the way to helping the other people, the same as medical doctors. Q: Now, why did you decide to come to America - in '75, you said? Chan: Yes. So the main reason we decided to come to the America was because my uncle was in the America. And then the other thing, even there I did not go for the hard time in a Communist country. There was some talking about the Hong Kong would go back to Communist. You heard it, the rumor was going on. And then my uncle, in the United States, he get a doctor to sponsor me to come over. So I say, okay, give myself a try. And I decided to come over. Q: But Hong Kong would not be handed over to China until 1997. You had twenty-two years - Chan: Right. But nobody can know what's going on. The other way is thinking about it. At that time they really want to send me to London, to go to nursing school. For the further education. But I saw the way there - London - English people treating the - they don't believe equal rights. I'm the kind of person who believe the equal right. So in the British system, looks like the bottom person talk to the nurse, if you are the ward assistant you doesn't talk to the nursing students. That's not my idea of the life. Instead of going to London I think my personality will be much suitable for the America. So I make up my mind I want to come to America. Q: Where did you get this impression about English people? You study under Brits in Hong Kong? Chan: Our nursing school have followed the British system. That's giving a little thinking about it, the way the British handling the job. Q: Very proper. Chan: Yeah. Q: So who decided that you should come alone and that your father and your brother should stay behind? Chan: Because, main thing, I was apply for the professional visa. It is not a family visa. So my father and my brother cannot come along. So my uncle is only the new immigrant, he cannot apply my father to come. And also my father was getting old. He's sixty years old already at that time, so maybe much better, easy, for him to stay in Hong Kong. I don't want him to go to the ship to work anymore, because you never stay home and you don't know what's going on. So I decided to come to the United States, then I ask my father to stay home to take care of my brother. Q: So '75, you came to where in America? Chan: New York. Q: This is where your uncle was? Chan: Yes. So I never left the New York [laughs]. Q: What was your first impression of New York City? Chan: Funny thing is, when I first time get to the JFK, my flight was five o'clock in the early morning. So our flight is one hour early, and my uncle, they thought the flight would be one hour delayed. They did not come to the airport to pick me up. Everybody left - except me. Also, I have two luggage before I get into the plane. So one of my friends work in the airport, so he told me, 'Okay, let me help you to put in luggage trunk.' So when I get to the JFK I lost the two luggage. And inside the luggage is a lot of things some of my friends ask me to bring over to United States for they family member. So to me, if I lost my own belonging, it doesn't matter. But lost someone else belonging, I'm quite nervous. So I was quite nervous at that time. And the whole airport is completely empty. Only I saw a black porter clean up in the JFK airport. I was getting very nervous. But good thing I do have some currency change, so I do able to ask the porter, 'Is there anyway I can find a phone?' So he do pointed to me where's the phone, so I made the phone call to my uncle. So they said it would takes them half hour to get to pick me up. So I stay in the airport for an hour, close to an hour, by myself. I was very nervous. I said, 'Gee, that is America?' You saw the face - like, I never saw that in Hong Kong. And I lost my luggage, cannot see my family member, and so big, the place is so big and so huge. I was sitting there, and doesn't no nobody. Alone. Quite nervous though. Q: Did you speak English at the time? Chan: A little, yeah. But just very nervous. Q: So you were twenty-five at that time. Chan: Yes. Q: Were you done with school? Chan: Yes, I did. Q: But in America you need another certificate. Chan: Right. Q: Okay. So you sat at the airport. Before coming here, what did you think America would be like? Chan: I'm type of person doesn't think that much. Just do it. You know? Sometime, if you want to think about every single details, what's your plan, sometimes the life is not exactly what you plan for. If you set up your mind, I'm going to go and get it, you actually will be much better get a result instead of have a plan and then there will be a lot of disappointment come take place. I just believe one thing - I want to go to United States, I want to work hard, to get my life straight together in America, put my feet on the ground. Q: When you came, did you think you would stay here? Or did you plan to get education and work experience to go back to Hong Kong? Chan: I do was thinking to go back to Hong Kong. Maybe ten years later, how to see as everything's going on there. I may go back to Hong Kong at that time. That's only original my thinking - just want to come to the United States to see what's happening. Q: But you never moved back. Chan: No. Q: And in all this time, did you go back to Shanghai at all? Chan: Yes, I did. Q: When was that? Chan: Couple years ago. I think it was the first time make up my mind I want to go back to Hong Kong. And Shanghai. I did went to Hong Kong quite a lot, but Shanghai I didn't go back for a long time. I went to travel to Russia. So some people look at me, 'Oh, you're Chinese. How's China look like?' I say, 'I ask myself. This is very good question. You ask me. I really doesn't know what China look like now - now that they - ' So after I come back from Russia I say, 'Look, I better go back to China. To take a good look before I went to the other country. So at least I know what is my own country looks like.' So next year I went back to Shanghai, and Beijing, Hangzhou, and Canton. I made a tour for three weeks, to take a good look on China. This is 1984. Q: So thirty-four years after you left. Oh, I'm sorry, you left in 1959. That's not right. Chan: Fifty-nine. It's about twenty-five years. Q: What did you feel going back? Chan: It feels - no matter what happened, still is your home town. You really feel very touching. I went back to see the place where I was born, where I was grow up, and, you see, I have my aunts still in Shanghai, so they come to the hotel to visit me. You know? And the other thing, at that time, China is not as open as now. They don't even have a public bathroom set up. That's the thing I really doesn't get used to. I went to my aunt's house, I can't get used to the bathroom system. I have to rush back to the hotel. But I still really feel like I'm very, very welcome in your own home town. It's a feeling nobody can take away from. Q: Did you feel that way in Hong Kong? Chan: Yes. Q: And what about here? Chan: In here - because, main thing, I work lot of time with American agency. I really feel like, no matter what happen, discrimination is there. Usually - I do remember I work for the ILGWU (International Ladies Garment Workers Union) union health center. They have a lot of multi-culture people. Even then I have ninety physicians under me. They will take a look and look at me and say, 'You don't look like an ordinary Chinese.' I turn around, ask them, 'What is the ordinary Chinese mean to you? Do they have a four letter in front of their forehead? Suppose whatever you say I need to say yes to you?' You know? I say, 'I'm sorry. This is not the way it's supposed to be.' Q: This is in the seventies and the eighties? When did you experience this? Chan: This is the seventies. The end of the seventies. Okay. They still thought, Chinese people are more humble. And whatever they say, we only say 'yes'. Either they are right or not. I'm sorry. It is not the way it is. I more believe equal. If you give me some guideline to do, it's not right. I have my right to speak up and to defend myself at the same. You are a professional - I'm a professional also. Okay. So why should you're on top of me? I need to follow whatever your guideline, and it's not right. That's what I believe. Q: So did you encounter that very often, or was that once in a while you feel that way of these kind of comments thrown at you? Chan: I should say that in the beginning, first couple of year. Then after a while, they know me. They will not do it to me anymore. Q: Do you think because there were not as many Asians here at that time? In nursing? Chan: Yes. Q: And maybe in nursing there's not as many Asians - Chan: It's not as many Asian and it's not as many people who are Chinese people will speak up for themselves. To defense on them. So it's a quite - from nowadays, until that time, it's a completely different pictures. Q: Did it ever make you feel you wanted to go back to Hong Kong to be amongst Chinese? Chan: Well, I don't think so. Because I may have been lucky that the other Chinese people. I could speak English. So, yes, the life if I go back to Hong Kong it will be much easier than here. But at least in here, I can protest some of the Chinese. I could speak up for them, and fight for some of the benefit for them. So if everybody selfish, so nobody will change the whole life. Q: So how many years were you in school in New York? Chan: I was - the main thing is, I have to send the money back to Hong Kong to support my father. I just go the evening time or the weekend time. I waited, did not go to the official school to get the training or anything done. Well, in the beginning, you say now the new immigrant is not easy. The old time we are not that easy. I work in the garment factory, I work as housekeeper, you know? Wherever I can put hands on to make moneys, I do that. As long as I don't do any robbery, any illegal things, I'm so proud of myself. Because whatever the money I make, I use my own hands to make the money and support my father and my brother. Q: And who did you live with in New York? Chan: I did get myself a apartment, to live by myself. Down in the Queens. Q: Where you still are today. Chan: No. I do move couple times away. Q: And today, where do you live? Chan: I live in Queens. Main Street. Q: Oh, Flushing. Chan: In Flushing. Q: A big Chinese community. Chan: Yes. Yes. Q: And then at one point did you join St. Vincent's in Chinatown? Chan: I was working for the ILGWU union health center as a clinical director for sixteen and a half year. Because my CEO, he's a Jewish - he treat me very, very good, look like my father. And he teach me a lot. And when the time we changed and the CEO comes in, the whole policy changed. So he did tell me that. He say, 'Chan, I don't think will be a comfortable surrounding for you to work.' At that time he was sitting in one of the nursing homes, on the board, he say, 'Chan, maybe think about nursing home.' I say, 'Nursing home never is my cup of tea. I like a fast movement, I like the outpatient, I like the emergency room. It's not a nursing home for me.' He said, 'Chan, don't say the thing too fast. Give yourself a good opportunity to think about it.' So then, later on, when I saw the thing is not moving as the same way I was expecting, so I figure, 'Maybe is a right time for me to move.' But the nursing home was in the Bronx at that time. I was living in Brooklyn. My father was staying with me. He's eighty years old, already. So it's not real easy for him to move, to adjust to a new surrounding. Then I went to take my driving license - fortunately I pass my driving license - then I told him, 'Now I could take the job.' Because otherwise it takes me three hours to commute. I'll always remember, I bought a car the night before, the next day I went to the new job. I drive for one and a half hour, and then I cannot find the nursing home. I go for all the difficulty time on the driving. But I learn a lot in the nursing home. It's a Jewish nursing home - I'm the only Chinese people there. Then the only problem is, my personality, I'm more involved with the patients' care. Ten o'clock every night, I did not get home until eleven. And six o'clock, turn around, have to go to work again. I was so tired. I bump into couple car accidents. [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE} So I decide maybe it's not the thing for me. And at the time, St. Vincent's has a job opening. My friend was retired and she wanted me to take over. And I went over to take the job in St. Vincent's. It was a very funny interview. I even told the director and the V.P. in St. Vincent, I'm not St. Vincent's style, because I'm more aggressive. I said, 'If you cannot take my attitude I think we should stop the interview.' Turned out they all agreed on it. Actually they made the arrangement before they said yes, I'm taking the job. I even take a salary cut, I take a job title cut. In the nursing home I was associate nursing director. It’s a 524 bed and also they promise me, the nursing director, as soon as she retired I'd be the nursing director. And is always in my dream, I want to set up a Chinese nursing home. To help the Asian community. So at that time I was very tired, and, you know, my health come first. So I do decided to leave the nursing home and come to St. Vincent's. But still, in the nursing home, they told me one thing: 'Selina, you remember, if it's money we can make out all the money you want.' I said, 'No, it's not the money. It is really my interests are still in the Chinese community, and also our patient set up.' And he told me one thing - 'If the thing doesn't work out, you know it's only one phone call away, you could get a job next day.' I said, 'Thank you for offering. I will remember.' But I did not went back yet. [Laughs] I went back for visit, I never went back to work. Q: Was part of the appeal to work at St. Vincent's because of this location in Chinatown? Chan: Yes. And also, you feel like, no matter what happens, I'm a Chinese. Deep in my heart I'm so proud of myself as a Chinese. I want to get back to Chinese community what I learned. Yeah, maybe I cannot do so much, but at least even I can serve. I can help one or two people I feel very happy. Q: Ok, I’m going to step in another direction for a little bit. It sounds like you were studying and working a lot, for a long time. Did you have time for romance? Did you marry? Chan: No. I'm still single. That's the big problem. Actually, one time I was working in the unions, the unions always pay lower, and my brother needed to go to college and I need the money to support. I've always had two job. I work for the union Monday through Friday. On Saturday and Sunday I'm doing private duty nurse. Some of the patients that they like me so much I even work twenty-four hours a day. Looks like I'm working nine days a week, you know? So I really doesn't have no life for my private life. Q: So you pretty much have devoted your lifetime to nursing. Chan: Yes, I did. I did. Sometimes you feel good, if some of the patients give the remark, you really feel, 'boy, I make some people change'. I even have one private patient, is a Jewish man, he have a gunshot wound. When the first time I got this patient he really is from neck down completely paralyzed. Until the end, he is driving the van. Even he's still paralyzed but he could drive the van. I took him around, I took him to the theater, I took him to the movie, I took him to the diner, and we even went to travelling. So even himself, he said, 'You look my own family. Without you I cannot travel so much.' I even took him to his son's graduate from medical school, in Harvard, from Boston. I fly with him, and do everything. You feel very good about it, you know. Sometimes the reward is quite different. It's not that money can buy. Q: Do you think if your mother was still alive to see your work, what would she say? Chan: She would be so proud of me, you know. Because even, now I'm working St. Vincent, we understand Chinese. Our education level sometimes quite different. We doesn't have that much medical knowledge such as popular people in America. So some of the patients have a lot of difficulty time. I will do my best to help them. If you can help couple people, you really feel good. Q: Okay. I'm going to jump ahead to September 11th. [quick discussion of length of tape left. NEED EDIT OUT] Now give me an idea of the scope of St. Vincent's in Chinatown, what it is able to handle before September 11th. Give me the kind of - is it mostly an outpatient facility? Chan: St. Vincent's Chinatown clinic was set up since 1976. At that time because of the new bride from China to come to the United States, and they don't have no health insurance so St. Vincent's come to what they needed for the OB Department. We set up a clinic in Chinatown to help the new immigrant mother-to-be. So that's our first beginning of the clinic in Chinatown. We're in the Park Row. We actually bought in the church, one of the small room in the back. And then after the mother was give birth to the baby, is a demand of the pediatric units. So we open up pediatric units and we move to the East Broadway. Then after the baby is growing up and the mother become older, then is a demand for us to open a general medical practice, and we move to our new location on the Canal Street and Elizabeth. So the St. Vincent history was changed. St. Vincent usually give quality care. They not really as high profile. They put a down, low profile, we don't have no advertising in Chinatown. Only by the patients' mouth. So a lot of people in Chinatown doesn't know St. Vincent's that much. I remember at the 9/11 time I went to - because my god sister went to China for the visit. She contacting a big tour, leading them to the Beijing to visit the Beijing family. So I was staying in Long Island with my godmother. So I drove into work on that morning. And the traffic was so heavy. I was driving the car, I keep on hear the ambulance and police car - Q: What time was this? Chan: This was around ten minutes after nine, around that time. I was wondering, even before I get to the city already it's so crowded. What's going on? Nobody know. And you turn on the radio and you heard, oh, the plane was crashed to the World Trade Center. So I was in the BQE (Brooklyn Queens Expressway), so I could see the World Trade Center. And I do see World Trade Center One was on smoke. And then suddenly I saw the other plane, was hit into the other buildings. You know, your tears is so really come down from you. We grow up in the New York even then. I was not born in America, but World Trade Center is our trademark of New York. You know the feelings. It is look like they are part of my family member. And you know the World Trade Center have so many people live there. You completely have your tears coming down. And driving with the car, my hand was shaking, you know, you don't know what you're going to do anymore. So then later on I saw the building was collapse. So fortunately I could able drove the car and park the car right in front in the Brooklyn side near Manhattan Bridge. So I just park the car anyplace I could. I walk to the bridge. Walk past the bridge and come over to the city. So I bump into a lot of people, and the police, they kept on telling me, 'You should go to the other direction.' I said, 'No, no, no, I work in the hospital. I have clinic in Chinatown. I have to report to St. Vincent's. I will go to that direction.' So I went through the bridge, I went through to make sure that all the pregnant mother is okay, my staff is okay. Then I have a staff meeting. I left half the staff make sure the patient would be safety to go home, someone to pick them up and some transportation to go home. Then I took half of the staff, we walk to the St. Vincent's to help. But it's a very, very touching moment when we go to the St. Vincent area. Because we did not have any telephone can communicate with the hospital. We have no way to know what's going on. So we walk down to St. Vincent, about five or six block. We saw the people wait on the line, everybody say they want to volunteer, even they say, 'Take my blood, take my blood. I'm the O plus.' You really, you in your heart, you cry for them. Who say that in New York we don't help each other? This is moment you feel our New York, how we really come together. We help each other. You know? And they want to help. When we passed the line, some people was yelling to me, 'How come we are waiting on the line now but they can go before us?' We have to show the I.D. So we were at the hospital, we want to go in to help. And the other thing was so sad. When I went down to the emergency room, our whole hospital, we have every single doctor, nurse, even the nurses’ aid, we have stretchers, wheelchair, everything - standing there. The police blocked the whole Sixth Avenue and Seventh Avenue just for ambulance. But no ambulance arrive. One ambulance came, everybody was so happy. We are clapping the hands, welcome to the ambulance. It's not we want to see the people's injury. It's the thing is that we feel one or two life still alive, we can help. Q: Why was the ambulance not coming in? Chan: Because is no life. No real live people they need to rush to the hospital. When they dig out the person it's already too late. That's what the sad part is. So when the ambulance get to the hospital that mean we still have a life, have a chance. Q: Today the whole St. Vincent's is located on 25 Elizabeth Street, right? Chan: No, this is only the clinic. Our hospital still located on the Seventh Avenue, on the 12th Street. Q: Okay, so that area was not closed off, like Chinatown was on that day. Chan: Right. But the main thing, we had a trauma center. We had the only trauma center in lower Manhattan at that time. So all the trauma case we are capable to handle. That's why all the critical trauma case have to go to St. Vincent's. Q: The one on 12th Street. Chan: Yes. You know, and it's so touching, at that day we have a lot of physician report to us from the other hospital as well, from some of the private practice, every single St. Vincent's hospital, even where they are, they report to duty, the staff is the same. Also the other nursing staff, in the other hospital, they're off the duty, they will come in to volunteer. So there is not really not much work for us to do. And I do also remember we set up a family center, let the family member to find the loved one in the World Trade Center. Are they located in the hospital, or even where they are. And I was volunteer there, and you heard so many sad story about it. Your heart cry for it. Emotionally very difficult to deal with. Because you feel like you are part of them. It's very difficulty time. Q: Did you try to come down to the clinic in Chinatown that day? Chang: I was in the clinic that day. Q: You were in the clinic. Change: Yeah. Our clinic was actually - I have other clinic near the World Trade Center, Ground Zero, in St. Margaret House, okay. After 9/11 there is no way you can go to St. Margaret House. Even the St. Margaret House, the clinic was closed. But I know that St.. Margaret House was not evacuated. They have a lot of senior citizens live there. So I did went to the Fifth Precinct and asked the police. I say, 'I have a clinic down in St. Margaret House. We have 290 some senior citizens that live in St. Margaret House. I just want to go down, take a look. Is any way police can give me a lift, go down to St. Margaret?' They did. So that's happening the day after. So I could able to go down to St. Margaret House. St. Margaret House, that night they don't have electricity, they don't have water, so later on they do bring emergency generator, get power back, and then they used the bottled water to give to rest of them. So I would stay in the St. Margaret House for couple days. I sleep over also. Because in case any resident gets sick, I could able to help. And also the St. Margaret House, the staff is too exhausted. At least I will stay over night, give them a break. They can get some sleep in the night time, I will take over the night shift. So, because I think in the hospital we do have a lot of volunteer and other people, but St. Margaret would be in a place where they need me. So I did went to the St. Margaret. Q: Is there anything in your personal background or professional training that could have prepared you for such a day, such a catastrophe? Chan: Well, only thing can put it this way. I was nursing director in a nursing home. By state requirement we do need to do a lot of preparation for emergency. It's the same thing at St. Vincent's. We need to do a lot of emergency preparation twice a year. I remember once, in the nursing home, it happens that we have a major - the pipe broken down. Complete water bust in to go to one of the patients' units. I was called two o'clock in the morning, so I drove in the car to the nursing home. We have to emergency evacuate all the residents, move the residents from one unit to the other, to the auditorium, we have to close down every single thing, make sure all the electrician don't have electric shock from the water. So I think that experience can let me to have some of idea how to handle emergency most of the time. And also I'm the in service director, to teach the nursing. So I always remember when I'm teaching my nursing staff, I always say one thing, 'When the emergency thing happen, the worst thing is panic. No matter what happened, you give one minute yourself. Take a deep breath and think about what I will do next. And it will be much better benefit than you panic.' So as instructor I can tell the staff to do it. So I always remember myself what to do. You know? I think that were helping me. Q: So what was this area like in Chinatown? I want to focus on St. Vincent's on Elizabeth Street for a little while. Because much of Chinatown was closed off. But smoke was very heavy here. Was there a lot of people running into the clinic, not knowing what to do? What was the scene like? Chan: Well, our building is a commercial building, so really it doesn't have a big sign. The people did not want it to. But the people was in St. Margaret's House, because St. Margaret's was so close to Ground Zero. They have actually excellent, excellent picture in St. Margaret's House. You will see that all the dirt, the smoke, all the things coming down, to the World Trade Center go down to the Fulton Street. Even their glass roof is completely covered by all the dust. And the way the people comes in, the way they are panicking and yelling, it's such a tremendous scene. It is very tragedy, I would say. But only thing is, you do feel our New York. We go through, we work together, we help together, and I was - you know, every single time can remember when you was in the family center, we have so much young people and comes in, offer you the food, offer you the drink, offer you the comfort. And, you know, why we say that our young generation is not like our old generation? I don't think so. And then 9/11 time, you really think the new generation, they do have a heart to help each other. I was so proud of them. Really so proud. Q: Did you surprise yourself in any way of how you handled things that day? Chan: I think in my professional attitude I'm not really surprising at all. If I could participate, I could do it, why not? Okay. Everybody have to help. Q: How is St. Vincent's funded? Is this a private or - Chan: It's a Catholic organization. It's funded by Catholic Charities. In the 9/11 time we do discharge most of the patients in the hospital. We evacuate the whole hospital for the 9/11 victim to go in for admission, and also we do empty a couple of floor for the policemen and fire department people. You know, have some bed to take a rest, or take a shower. It was - our whole hospital, we really put in for the 9/11 time. We are very well prepared for the things for the - there still is so many sad - a lot of our staff after that do need some of emotional counseling, because we saw a lot of tragedy thing happen. We saw a lot of - we heard a lot of sad story. Q: Is there any one particular patient that has left a deep impression on you? Chan: I would say there is - when I'm in the family center I met a couple of family member, they comes in, they were even crying. There is a young gentleman, he say his father was wheelchair bound. He went into the meeting in the Windows of the World on that morning, with his girlfriend. And since then they never heard from him. And I heard the other story - a tourist guy comes in with the whole family, supposed to go up to the World Trade Center Observation Deck. So they were not being open until nine o'clock. So they daughter says she is hungry so he went to buy some breakfast for them. And the time he come back, he cannot get in anymore. So he never find his wife and his daughter. And we heard so many story. They say - someone told me they just spoke to his husband before the building collapse. So I guess the husband call them, say he's on his way to come get to the elevator, get out the building. And next thing they heard is the building collapse. You know, you heard so many tragedy going on, and this never ending. Never ending. If you want to ask the story you just go on and on and on. And so many. Q: And how long did you stay at the hospital? Chan: We stayed there at least until the hospital say we have too many volunteer, we have to take shifts. Because we don't have a space for the volunteers to sleep, we don't even have a space for the volunteer to go to the bathroom. So that means so many volunteers. The food is not the problem, because we are getting a lot of donation comes in. So they tell us to go home, leave the cell phone number or the beeper number, and the can reach us. So I think we left 11 o'clock, the night time. Q: Of that day. Chan: Of that day. And some staff left around nine o'clock, some left around seven o'clock. But we are standby. And next day I was in the hospital nine o'clock, and then because we still able to reach all the patient in the clinic, we call the patient and told the patient, 'Don't come in, because the building was closed.' We don't want the patient to come in to the Chinatown and find out the building is closed. Have to guide the patient what to do. If they are sick they can go to the St. Vincent Hospital in the main campus. And after then, I do went back to the clinic. The clinic, I cannot get into. So I went to the police station. I went to the St. Margaret House. [END TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO; BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE] Q: Obviously September 11th was very tough for many people. Even though you personally were not at the World Trade Center, as a nurse, did you receive any therapy or counseling afterwards based on what you saw? Chan: Actually, I set a couple of counseling meetings for the people who go through the 9/11. 'Specially the people in St. Margaret House. The elderly patients, their window is facing World Trade Center. They see the whole thing actually happen. I remember one of the residents told me, she say that she lost her taste in her mouth. She cannot sleep and she cannot eat for a week. You know, they really doesn't think about the traumatized by the 9/11, they saw it as something wrong. But I do set up a couple of workshop, I do have a psychiatrist went to the St. Margaret House, we give workshop in English, Chinese, and the Spanish as well. And give them the opportunity to speak up and talk what in their mind. So some of the older even say they cannot look at the window anymore, because every morning, the first thing they get up, they look at the window, they saw the World Trade Center was stooding there. Now, they said, when they open the window, the two buildings gone. It looks like something they lost. The symbol they lost. And it is a tough time. So we did a lot of counseling. Because the main thing, I was sick for a week for the whole counseling, the workshop. So I'm one of the participants in here. This looks like sort of like one of my program. I'm saying, well, it's the other residents we do go for. Q: Would you say that most of the patients at St. Vincent's here in Chinatown are Chinese? Chan: Yes. We should say that it's close to 95% is Chinese. Lately we do have some Russian, Spanish, Irish, and Italian patients that come as well. Q: Give me a kind of idea of what type of Chinese make up your patients. Are they recent immigrants, a combination of all people with or without health insurance - Chan: We do have - because the new immigrant change - we do have a lot of new immigrant. We close to have 60% is a new immigrant, okay? And we do have some of old immigrant as well. And because we are the clinic in Chinatown for twenty-six years now, we do have actually third generation. The grandma was give birth to the daughter in here, now the daughters give birth to the babies in our clinic, in the hospital as well. So a lot of it look like family types, and actually a lot of it is a patient by the word of mouth. Before we all know our communities. A lot of people from Canton, China side on Hong Kong. Now is a lot of Fujianese. So a lot of patients is Fujianese now. So in the beginning our language in the clinic is Cantonese, and Toishan. Funny thing, I learn Toishan in America. I remember always my first working experience in Chinatown. I'm Shanghainese myself. I speak Shanghainese, I speak Mandarin, I speak Cantonese. I have a Toishanese patient come to me and say, "You doesn't speak Chinese." I say, "Look at her. What do you mean, I don't speak Chinese? I speak three dialects." And they told me, oh no, no, no - your Chinese is not Chinese. Toishanese is Chinese. So, "Okay, give me six months. I'm going to learn Toishanese." I did. So nowaday is no more Toishanese used in New York. Then you need to learn Mandarin, and Fujianese. So now the clinic, we spend most of the time speaking the Mandarin now. That is the change of the new immigration population. Q: And do you accept patients without health insurance? Chan: Yes, we do. Because we are Catholic charity hospital. We usually charge a small amount, according to the income or the percentage. We charge very low fee for the patients if you really need the surgery, or you need some help, we always have charity money to help. You know, we cannot do one hundred percent, but at least we will try out best to do seventy or eighty percent. We do have some patients have a severe illness take place. We do help them have a surgery done, have everything done, okay? And we also have what we call the Immigration Program. We helping the illegal immigrant who have AIDS, we do help him tremendously, you know. Q: Did September 11th result in any policy or structural changes at the hospital? Chan: I think the only thing we would say we do change is a lot of thing we get more involved with emergency preparation. Hospital is more suitable for those kind of tragedies, the thing happening. And also we set up a command system in the hospital in case anything happen, we always will commanding to other satellite clinic, how to guide them, what to do. And also we are under the construction of to be built a new emergency room in St. Vincent. The emergency room actually was have idea by former mayor Guiliani. We were going to call Rudolph Guiliani Emergency Room, and we will be very well prepared with chemistry attack, with all kinds of attack on New York City. So now is the construction will take place, is going on. Hopefully we can be finished on the 2005. And we will be very, very well prepared for any kind of emergency. Q: Anthrax or - Chan: Yes. Q: I'm going to move forward to 2003 - this year. There is yet another medical emergency - SARS. Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome. Being that this is Chinatown, where lots of travels or family from China, from Asia, to this area, how was the clinic handling SARS? Chan: We do have a lot of patients is getting very panicked, okay? But some of the patient is very good. We even told the patient, "You was recently traveling from China. You have a temperature, high temperature, and you was coughing." We would guide the patient to go to the emergency room because we have an isolation set up. [Interview interrupted by a knock on door. A short, whispered conversation. NEEC TO EDIT OUT] Q: Sorry, we're going to back up. You were talking about SARS, if a patient came in with a high fever. Chan: Right. We would right away put the patient on the mask. Guide the patient to our negative pressure room. In our clinic we do have isolation negative pressure so the air would not bring back to the clinic. Then we will examine the patient. If it really is a suspicion case we, right away, we would put the patient in the ambulance or the taxi cab driver and put the patient to the emergency room right away. We would get the last contacts for the patient, to contact the other peoples. So as soon as the patient left, we would clean up the room, clean up everything, by the bleach. Just get a last chance. And the patients are very well educated about what SARS look like. You don't have to be panicked. It's not look like anybody must have SARS when they come from China. It sometime could be happens when you come back from China you a little bit too overtired from traveling day and night, up in day, change, sometimes it could happen you catch a little minor cold. Because at that time still is a couple thing that happen. Is the hay fever time, and it's allergy time, and also is cold, a lot of people get cold at that time. So it's a very similar diagnosis to SARS. We don't have really be so panicked. I always remember a story. I get a call from the bank. The teller is getting panicked. They touched the money. They'll say "The patient touched the money. And the teller did get money in contact with the SARS." So we have to educate them. It's not really that kind of cause infection. For the droplet to cause infection, because droplet could be dead within couple hours. So would not look like stay in the money would cause infection to the teller in the bank. Q: When were you first aware of SARS? Chan: Well, because I read Chinese paper. Every day. So as soon as we heard of things happening in Hong Kong, and in the China, what happening, we know that because we do have a lot of people traveling from Hong Kong, for this kind of thing we have to do some preparation. So actually, we are before the travel alert come on the place. We just alert the patient, if you have high fever, coughing, and recent traveling call us right away, okay? Then, later on, the Department of Health came down with guidelines, so we all put up the signs and get everything done. Q: And how many cases did you handle? Chan: Luckily I think we don't have any case. It was very lucky for our part. And we have only - we see a couple of patients call. We do guide the patient to go to emergency room. And we ask the patient, "Are you going to the emergency room?" Then we call the emergency room, let the emergency room well prepare - the patient will arrival, don't let the patient wait for the emergency room, direct guide them to the isolation room. And a couple of the patient was stay in the hospital in the isolation room until our specimen of the saliva come back and the x-ray film is confirm they are not a SARS patient. So, and we did not have any panic case. None. Q: And Chinatown was considerably quieter during that time. I remember coming, seeing the streets were not as crowded as it normally was. As a clinic, as a hospital, did you distribute information to try to educate people, to try to calm people down? Chan: Yes. We did. A lot of patient, we usually have a phone system. They will call us and we will call the patient. Because we do the follow up. We build a different relationship. They look like a family member. Anything they have something go wrong, they would call us. So even they would, "Oh, I heard about the SARS. What you suggest I going to do?" So we told them in the phone. And some of them even, when the patient comes in, "Well, my kid go to school. Someone at school may have the coughing. I cannot get a mask." I do order a lot of mask and sometime we do give to the patient - "Take some mask home for the kids to use in the school, public, whatever." Then they feel like, it's not for them to use. Sometimes the kids have a cough. Okay. So it would be much better to protect them causing infection to the other family members. Q: Are you at any time concerned that you might be jeopardizing your own health? Chan: That was never in my mind. I remember one incident happened when I was in the Union. I was on the twenty-second. We have a patient completely collapsed in the elevator. One of the staff was with the patient in the elevator so she know I'm on twenty-second floor. Right away she pushed the elevator to twenty-second floor. And right away she yell, "Selina, I have patient collapse in the elevator." I went in the elevator. I didn't give it second thought, I did mouth to mouth resuscitation on the patient, okay? We did the CPR for the patient until the ambulance arrival. So after then the people - the doctor, even, ask me, "Do you want to take the patient's blood for the AIDS, or the hepatitis?" I said, "Look, I already did it already. I also helped the patient. Saved the patient. At least the patient did not die on my hands." Later on the patient die, but not then. As long as patient get safety to go to hospital, get all the treatment. If I pick my profession as a nurse, just want to help the people, I don't think to jeopardize my life or not is not a question that would be in my mind. Sure, I need to protect myself. But sometimes, when emergency things happen, you cannot think that much. Q: Having worked in Chinatown as long as you have, do you think there is enough medical facilities in Chinatown to meet the needs? Chan: I wish to have room expanding, okay? I think the major problem in Chinatown now, we do have a lot of private physician, have a specialty, but a lot of look like Medicaid, HMO, Family Health Plus, because the reimbursement rate is so low a lot of private of doctors is not accepting. And now if the low income family, they need to go to see a specialty, where are they going to turn? For asking for help? I think we do have tremendous room in Chinatown to open up some of the specialty that will accept low income insurance. To help the low income and a new immigrant community people. I always believe we still have room. And also I do believe the other thing - competition make it good. Make good for us to give for a community better service. And let a patient be more aware to have a one more selection of the hospital to go and the doctor to choice. And it make us all growing together. Q: When do you think you will retire? Chan: I really want to - it's always my goal - I want to have, either have assisted living or a nursing home in lower Manhattan for Asian, Chinese. I still will try, if even I'm going to retire in my age, I still want to give some of my time to the community to help as a volunteer. Q: It's obvious that you have given a lot of your time and your life to nursing, and to the community. Any regrets that you didn't set aside time to start your own family? Chan: Well, sure, sometimes when you go home you feel lonely. You will say that this isn't right. But you cannot look back. If you look back - I'm not fortune teller. If I know this kind of thing or that kind of thing happens, I wouldn't do that. But it's not right. If you live in the past world, you never will be happy. Okay? You always looking forward, in the future. Yes, I picked that movement, my fate came out that way already. I cannot change back. Just looking forward. If I can help some community people, help some Chinese, I'm happy. That's it. The most important thing, you feel yourself - I happy. I valuable to yourself. I'm not looking for something in return. No. If you give, you give. That's it. Q: Would it be safe to say you probably will stay in New York for the rest of your days? Chan: I will stay in New York, maybe. You know, if I really become I'm so old, I may go back to China or Hong Kong. Because it would be stay with more our same culture people that were helping, if my health is not there. Great, for myself to handle myself in New York. And sometime maybe it's time for me to go back to China. No matter what happen, my roots still in China. We still believe sometime will be better to go back to China to wait for the end of your life. You know, just is the thinking. Q: Do you think only Chinese people feel that way? You have been away since you were nine. That's most of your life. And yet you think you might want to end up where you started. Chan: Yeah. Sometimes you feel like it, you know? You do feel like it. I think it's not only Chinese. Some of the other American people have the same kind of feelings. Talking to them, that's how the way they feel. You know, this is only a trip. Every time when the car go by and the thing change, sometimes you will always change your mind, you know? You could not say it's definitely that's the way I want to do in my life. In the meantime it's how I feel when you went back to China, you saw the way the China was change. You just be so proud of Chinese, the way we catch up for them nowadays. Q: We have talked about many things. Is there anything you want to share that I have not asked you? Chan: I don't think so. You ask quite very well. And also I only believe the other thing. There's maybe one thing I need to say. In our Chinese community - I know maybe the other communities the same - we really need to encourage the young people to come back to the community. A lot of young people get a good education, high education, they move to the American community. They don't come back. So we need a new blood in this community. When the time is the old generation retires, with a new generation to help this community, to build the community, to guide the community. So I think that would be my thinking I really like to see. So that's why I must volunteer myself in what we call the Chinese-American Social Service and Health. We try to do some scholarships for the new generation to study social work -- bilingual social work. That what we really need tremendous in Chinatown. To come back to Chinatown, to help the Chinese. Q: This project will be on the Internet for ten years, and then the Library of Congress, so hopefully some young people will hear, perhaps, your story, and be inspired, and then come back. Thank you very much for your time. Chan: Thank you for the invite. Q: This is Lan Trinh for the MoCA Documentation Project, and I've been speaking with Selina Chan of St. Vincent's in Chinatown. Thank you very much. Chan: Thank you. [END OF SESSION} Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕今天是12月15日。我在St.Vincent's Hospital採訪陳熬娣。請用中英文講一下您的姓名和年齡。 陳﹕我叫陳熬娣。我于1950年出生﹐現年50歲。[中文又重複一遍] 問﹕您不用每句話都用中文再講一遍﹐我只是想知道您的中文名字。 陳﹕知道了。 問﹕請問您是哪裡人﹖ 陳﹕我本人在上海出生﹐後來移民到香港。我差不多是在香港長大的。我于1975年來美國。 問﹕您去香港時有多大﹖ 陳﹕九歲。我是在共產黨解放中國後出生的。所以﹐當時去香港還不是太難。因為那個時候我父親在香港﹐我們申請簽証去了香港。 問﹕那在1959年﹐您是合法去香港的﹖ 陳﹕我是合法離開中國﹐但不是合法進入香港的。就好像是歷史記載的那些船民﹐我當時也是差不多的情況。我合法離開上海後先到了澳門﹐然後再坐船到的香港。 問﹕您父親為什麼當時在香港﹖ 陳﹕他是船員。 問﹕船員﹖ 陳﹕是的。他在船上工作。所以﹐在當時﹐他一直都在香港那邊﹐經常跑美國航線。他後來沒有再回中國。我是在共產黨奪取政權之後出生的。 問﹕從1949年共產黨上臺算起﹐您當時已經滿十歲了。您在中國的生活怎麼樣﹖您是否還記得﹖ 陳﹕我還有印象。你知道﹐童年的生活總是令人留念的。實際上﹐我們那時在中國生活得還不錯﹐因為我們有錢﹐而且父親經常從香港寄來一些物品。所以﹐我們的生活還是比較舒適的﹐並不像一般人想象中那麼糟。 問﹕那麼﹐您父親總是在外跑船﹐不經常在上海。 陳﹕是的。 問﹕那他為什麼不想回上海﹐卻想讓全家離開上海﹖ 陳﹕主要是因為他當時在一家荷蘭船公司做事。如果他辭掉那份工作回上海的話﹐他必須要在上海找工作﹐但這不是那麼容易。這是原因之一。其次﹐我的其他親戚﹐比如我表兄妹﹐姑姑﹐舅舅都移民去了香港。所以﹐我們也決定離開上海去香港。 問﹕所以不是因為政治原因﹖ 陳﹕不是﹐不是﹐跟那個完全沒有關係。 問﹕您家人在1949年之後沒有任何麻煩嗎﹖ 陳﹕沒有。也許我們算是幸運的。 問﹕那麼﹐當時您全家﹐即您自己﹐您的母親﹐和所有的兄弟姐妹都去了香港﹖ 陳﹕當時只有我母親和我。我們到了香港之後﹐我母親才生了我弟弟。所以﹐我們家只有我們姐弟兩個人。 問﹕你們是坐船去香港的嗎﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕您能不能談一下您去香港的經過﹖你們有沒有花錢﹖是怎樣的過程﹖ 陳﹕可以。實際上﹐我們一共試了兩次。第一次﹐我們躲在船艙裡。因為船長有毒癮﹐他忙於吸毒﹐沒有專心開船。後來﹐我們被警察抓住送到澳門﹐被關了一夜。第二天﹐我父親到了澳門把我們保了出來。所以﹐第二次我們花了更多的錢找了一個可靠的船長﹐最後逃到了香港。我還記得當時整船人都被困在船艙裡﹐很多人因為暈船都吐了。那時我只有九歲﹐而且我母親有六個月的身孕﹐行動很不方便﹐我要攙著她走。我們要從山的一面爬到另一面﹐然後轉船才到的香港。 問﹕您剛纔講的是在澳門的事情。當時船上大概有多少人﹖ 陳﹕大概有一百多人。我們到香港時﹐被警察截住。當時﹐我﹐我母親和另外兩個上了年紀的夫婦走在一起﹐我們一共是四個人。警察通常會問幾個人中年齡最小的人事情。當時我只有九歲﹐我們被警察截住的時候﹐我回答﹐“我是從香港來的。”他們就問我﹐“你去哪裡﹖”我說﹐“我去祖父母那裡吃午飯。”於是﹐警察就放我們走了。這是1959年的事情。所以﹐我們平安到達我父親那裡。 問﹕您當時不是只講上海話嗎﹖ 陳﹕我在澳門待了一個月等船期去香港﹐所以我在澳門學了些廣東話。 問﹕您是否還記得您從上海到澳門再從澳門到香港花了多少錢路費嗎﹖ 陳﹕記得﹐當時我們花了差不多有3,000塊錢。在1959年﹐那是一大筆錢。 問﹕三千美金﹖ 陳﹕不﹐是港幣。但還是不少錢﹐當時是1959年。 問﹕所以您基本上是偷渡去的﹐不是合法去的。 陳﹕是的。 問﹕你們到香港時﹐您父親在那邊已經有房了嗎﹖ 陳﹕是單元房﹐是為我們準備的。 問﹕您當時有沒有身份﹖ 陳﹕沒有合法身份。但後來有規定﹐在香港住一段時間後﹐可以申請居住身份。所以﹐我基本上是在香港上的學﹐一直上到高中。後來﹐我上了香港的護士學校。 問﹕那時您父親還是繼續跑船﹐經常不在香港﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕您是和您的母親住在一起﹐後來有了您弟弟﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕您的其他親戚呢﹖他們都去了哪裡﹖ 陳﹕我不知道。我的很多表兄妹都在香港﹐還有一個在上海﹐我的姥爺姥姥在寧波﹐是我母親的父母親。所以﹐我們還有回中國探望他們。 問﹕您在那個時候懂不懂發生的一切﹖您害怕嗎﹖ 陳﹕不害怕。這也許和我的性格有關。我總是希望能有些新的經歷﹐了解些新的事情。所以﹐對於我來講﹐一切都發生得很自然﹐沒有什麼好怕的。就連我們坐的船的船長也說﹐“像你年紀這樣小的女孩﹐你已經是很勇敢了。你一點都不害怕。”當時船上很多人都很害怕﹐而我卻好像沒事一樣。實際上﹐在我們爬山的時候﹐我和我母親走散了。因為她有身孕﹐行動很不方便。其他人總是催我們快走﹐ 所以我只好跟著人群走﹐走得非常快﹐後來我一回頭 - 我已經找不著我母親了。我又不能再回去找我母親﹐我是後來在那個島的另一面才又見著她的。 問﹕這是在澳門﹐你們先上的岸﹐你們的船靠在一邊﹐然後你們要到另一邊﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕您當時還很小﹐您認為您是哪裡來的這麼多勁兒﹖ 陳﹕正如我剛纔所講﹐我總是喜歡冒險﹐想看一看世界的另一面是什麼樣子的。當我在上海的時候﹐我總是在想我父親在香港的生活是什麼樣的。我記得我們先坐火車去的廣州﹐然後需要換車去澳門。當我父親看到我母親行動艱難後﹐他跟我說﹐“我看你們不會安全到香港的﹐不如我給你們買回程票﹐你們回上海吧。”我跟我父親講﹐“不。無論發生什麼事情﹐我都要去香港。我要看一下香港是什麼樣子﹐也算是圓了我的夢。”於是我父親說﹐“我要等到你晚上睡著後把你綁起來扔到車上去。”我說﹐“那好﹐那我一晚上就不睡覺了。”我真的就沒睡。我就坐了一個晚上直到第二天上了去澳門的火車。我想這就是我的性格。 問﹕為什麼您父親不能回上海接你們呢﹖當時他能這樣做嗎﹖ 陳﹕因為坐火車去上海需要太長的時間﹐但他有到廣州接我們﹐然後我們一起去的澳門。他安排了所有的事情﹐幫我們在澳門訂了旅館﹐之後他就回香港了。 問﹕在1959年﹐香港是不是有很多上海人﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕很多大陸人﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕差不多都是非法入境的﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕那您當時能不能上學呢﹖ 陳﹕可以﹐我有上學。但我開始的時候還是比較辛苦﹐因為我的廣東話還不好。而且﹐我一點英文都不懂﹐所以第一年學得比較吃力。但到第二年就基本上沒有什麼問題了。 問﹕您上的是什麼學校﹖ 陳﹕是一所非常小的私立學校﹐是在香港。那個學校入學非常容易﹐學校也只是一層樓。不像現在的教育系統那麼健全。 問﹕是不是所雙語學校﹖ 陳﹕學校裡有英文課﹐但不多。大部份的課都是用中文教授的﹐或廣東話。 問﹕那您基本上是通過上英文課學的英文﹖ 陳﹕是的﹐學的也不是很多。 問﹕您和您的母親在香港哪裡住﹖ 陳﹕我們住在九龍﹐紅磡附近。 問﹕紅磡﹖ 陳﹕是的﹐離車站比較近 - 但後來我們就搬到觀塘去了。 問﹕您多久能見您父親一次﹖ 陳﹕他每三個月回家一次﹐當他的船靠香港的時候。他那時還在那家船公司做。 問﹕那麼﹐您全家都是靠您父親的資助﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕您母親有沒有工作﹖ 陳﹕沒有。我母親身體不好。每個月都是我父親賺錢﹐母親卻要花錢住醫院。她總是不舒服。我待在家裡照顧我弟弟﹐有的時候我們有保姆﹐有的時候沒有。 問﹕您當時的生活怎麼樣﹖您在香港適不適應﹖您喜歡香港嗎﹖ 陳﹕喜歡。 問﹕您沒有什麼不習慣的嗎﹖ 陳﹕沒有。我這個人非常容易適應新的環境。所以﹐我一點問題都沒有。 問﹕您現在是護士。您是什麼時候想到要從醫的呢﹖ 陳﹕應該是從我母親住院的時候開始的。那些護士們沒有把她照顧好。當時我在上高中﹐我有跟她講。我說﹐“你不要以為治療病人有什麼了不起的。等過幾年後﹐我要讓你知道好護士是什麼樣子的。”這就是我為什麼下定決心要上護士學校。 問﹕您是否覺得您想自己照顧您的母親﹖ 陳﹕是的。但不幸的是我母親已經過世了。 問﹕在您畢業之前﹖那麼您是在香港上的護士學校﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕您是不是很快就喜歡這個專業了﹖ 陳﹕一開始的時候還不是。我記得﹐因為我姓“陳﹐”按照字母ABC順序排列﹐我總是排在班裡的第一個。所以﹐每次一有什麼新的機會﹐或者開始打仗需要派護士上前線﹐或需要去什麼地方﹐我總是排在第一個。我們管我們上的那所香港護士學校叫“Nethersole”。當時﹐他們叫我PTS﹐意思是新來的人。三個月後﹐他們把我安排到GYN組。在此之後﹐他們讓我去兒科上夜班。我們只是做些洗尿布﹑換尿布和喂嬰兒的事情。在兒科之後﹐我又被調到手術室。當我第一次進入手術室的時候﹐我完全地驚呆了﹐都不知道是怎麼會事﹐儘管他們跟我講﹐“這是個盲腸炎的手術。”我看了一下病人 - 盲腸在哪裡﹖因為我當時還沒有上解剖課﹐我不知道是怎樣的情形。在開始的時候﹐我們的確很不適應。然後我就問我自己﹐這份工作到底適不適合我﹖ 但我已經答應我母親要做護士﹐去照顧其他的人﹐所以﹐我最終還是挺過來了。不是那麼容易﹐但時間長了也就習慣了。 問﹕您沒有想過當醫生嗎﹖ 陳﹕當我來美國的時候﹐我的確有一些選擇。我申請到醫學院的獎學金。但問題是﹐我剛剛來美國的時候要確保我父親能辭掉那份船上的工作待在家裡。我要寄錢給我父親和弟弟。所以﹐經濟條件不允許我讀書。即使我拿到了獎學金﹐我父親和弟弟怎麼辦﹖我畢業之前﹐他們不能餓著等死。所以﹐有些時候必須要權衡一下。我本人無所謂﹐做護士也可以和當醫生一樣幫助別人。 問﹕您為什麼決定要來美國﹖是75年﹐對嗎﹖ 陳﹕是。我來美國的主要是因為我舅舅在美國。還有﹐我不想待在共產主義國家。當時有傳聞說是共產黨要到香港來﹐那個時候大家都這麼講。於是﹐我在美國的舅舅托了一個醫生把我辦了過來。因此﹐我就想試一試﹐於是乎就決定過來了。 問﹕但香港直到1997年才回歸大陸﹐是25年之後的事情。 陳﹕不錯﹐但那時沒人知道究竟是什麼情況。當時他們想把我送到倫敦上護士學校繼續深造。但英國人不崇尚平等權利﹐我卻嚮往平等權利。在英國﹐只有最下等的人才會跟護士接觸﹐就連病房助理都不和學護士的學生講話。這不是我想要的生活。跟倫敦比起來﹐我想我的性格更適合來美國。所以﹐我打定主意要來美國。 問﹕您為什麼會對英國人有這樣的印象﹖您當時在香港受的是英國人的教育嗎﹖ 陳﹕我上的護士學校採用的是英國的教育系統。我因此對英國人的工作方式有些感觸。 問﹕很好。 陳﹕是啊。 問﹕是誰決定讓您一個人過來﹐您父親和弟弟留在中國的﹖ 陳﹕主要是因為我申請的是專業簽証﹐而不是家庭簽証。所以﹐我父親和弟弟不能一起來。我舅舅當時還是新移民﹐還不能申請我父親來。而且﹐我父親當時已經老了。他那時已經有60歲了﹐所以﹐他還是留在香港比較好。我不想讓他再在船上做了﹐因為總不在家的話跟家人都疏遠了。因此﹐我決定來美國﹐而讓我父親待在家裡照看我弟弟。 問﹕您75年到的美國哪裡﹖ 陳﹕紐約。 問﹕您舅舅也在紐約嗎﹖ 陳﹕是的。從那以後﹐我再也沒有離開紐約。(笑) 問﹕您對紐約的第一印象是什麼﹖ 陳﹕有趣的是﹐當我第一次到JFK機場的時候﹐我的飛機是早晨5點鐘到的。我的航班早了一個小時﹐但我舅舅以為是晚了一個小時。所以﹐他們沒有來機場接我。其他下飛機的人都走了﹐只剩下我一個。而且﹐我在上飛機之前帶了兩件行李。我的一個朋友在機場工作﹐他跟我說﹐“我幫你把行李放到行李艙。”但我到JFK機場時卻找不到那兩件行李。那裡面有很多東西都是我的一些朋友托我帶給他們在美國的親人的。所以﹐對於我來講﹐如果只是我自己的東西丟了倒無所謂。但別人的東西也一起丟了﹐我就比較緊張了。所以﹐我當時非常緊張。整個機場空無一人。我只看到一個黑人搬運工在打掃衛生。我變得越來越緊張。但幸好我身上還有些零錢﹐於是﹐我就問那個搬運工﹐“附近有沒有地方打電話﹖”他指給我看電話亭在哪裡﹐我於是給我舅舅打了個電話。他們說要等半個小時後才能到。所以﹐我就一個人在機場又等了一個小時﹐快一個小時。我很緊張。我對自己講﹐“難道這就是美國﹖”我從來沒有在香港遇到這樣的情況。我丟了行李﹐不能見到我的親人﹐這個地方又這麼大。我坐在那裡﹐一個人都不認識﹐的確很緊張。 問﹕您當時講英文嗎﹖ 陳﹕會講一點兒﹐但主要是緊張。 問﹕您當時是25歲﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕您當時有沒有畢業﹖ 陳﹕已經畢業了。 問﹕但到了美國您需要再考證書﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕那麼﹐您坐在機場裡。在您的親人接您之前﹐您有沒有在想美國會是什麼樣子的﹖ 陳﹕我這個人平時考慮的不多﹐只是付諸於行動。有時﹐如果想得太具體﹐計劃得太詳盡﹐反而會發現實際生活同計劃中的並不一樣。你一旦有了一個目標﹐專著地去盡力爭取實現自己的目標﹐反而會收到好的的效果。相反﹐你如果只是在精心計劃﹐你會有很多失望的。我只是相信一件事 - 我要來美國﹐我要努力工作﹐在美國調整好我的生活﹐扎扎實實地做事情。 問﹕您來這裡的時候﹐有沒有想到要待長久﹖還是想上完學積累些工作經驗後再回香港﹖ 陳﹕我的確有想過回香港。也許再過十年﹐我想看一下那邊發展得怎麼樣。當時﹐我有過回香港的想法。但那只是我開始時候的想法 - 只是想來美國看看這邊的情況。 問﹕但您沒有再回去發展。 陳﹕沒有。 問﹕您有沒有再回上海呢﹖ 陳﹕有。 問﹕什麼時候回去的﹖ 陳﹕幾年前回去的。我想那是我第一次決定回香港和上海看一看。我總是有回香港﹐但回上海還是這麼多年來的頭一次。 我在俄羅斯旅行的時候﹐一些人看到我說﹐“你是中國人﹐中國怎麼樣﹖”我說﹐“我也在問自己這個問題﹐這是個好問題。我的確不知道中國現在是什麼樣子。”所以﹐在從俄羅斯回來之後﹐我想﹐“我最好回一趟中國﹐去其他國家之前要先看一下中國。至少我能知道我自己的國家是什麼樣子的。”因此﹐我第二年就去了上海﹑北京﹑杭州和廣州。我一共去了三個星期﹐在中國好好地轉了一下。那是1984年。 問﹕在您離開34年之後。噢﹐不對﹐您是1959年離開的。 陳﹕59年。大約是25年之後。 問﹕您回去後的感覺如何﹖ 陳﹕我感覺﹐無論發生了什麼事情﹐這永遠是我的祖國。我的確感到很激動。我回去看了一下我出生長大的地方。我姑姑們還都在上海﹐她們到賓館看我。還有﹐在那個時候﹐中國還沒有像現在這麼開放。他們還沒有公共廁所﹐這是我很不習慣的。我到我姑姑家裡﹐我就是用不慣那兒的廁所。我必須要回到賓館。但是﹐我感到我在家鄉還是非常非常受歡迎的。這種感覺是誰也奪不走的。 問﹕您在香港是不是也有同感﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕在這裡呢﹖ 陳﹕在這裡﹐主要是因為我大多時候是給美國機構工作。不論條件怎麼樣﹐我總是感覺到受歧視。通常 - 我記得我在ILGWU(International Ladies Garment Workers Union)工會康復中心工作的時候﹐ 那裡有很多國家的人。即使在那個時候﹐我都在負責90多個醫生的病人。他們看到我後會說﹐“你不像一般的中國人。”我於是問他們﹐“一般的中國人是什麼意思﹖他們腦門上是不是有字﹖是不是無論你講什麼我都聽你的﹖”我說﹐“對不起﹐這是不對的。” 問﹕這是在七八十年代﹖這是什麼時候的事情﹖ 陳﹕七幾年。七十年代末。他們總是認為﹐中國人比較懦弱。無論別人說什麼﹐我們總是點頭稱道﹐不管他們說的是對還是錯。對不起﹐這不是事實。我更加相信平等。如果別人給我一些條條框框讓我去遵守﹐這是不對的。我也同樣有權利發表我自己的意見﹐為我自己辯護。你是專業人士﹐我也是專業人士。那麼﹐為什麼你會在騎在我的脖子上向我發號施令﹖一味地讓我聽從他們的調遣﹐這是不可能的。這就是我的看法。 問﹕您是經常遇到這種情況﹐還是偶爾有人這麼說您﹖ 陳﹕應該是開始幾年有這種情況。一段時間之後﹐他們也了解我了﹐也就不再這樣了。 問﹕您認為這是不是因為當時這邊還沒有這麼多的亞洲人做護士﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕可能是做護士這一行的亞洲人本來就不多﹖ 陳﹕是亞洲人不多﹐也是因為沒有那麼多的中國人會挺身而出為自己辯護。所以﹐跟現在相比﹐那個時候的情況大不一樣。 問﹕您有沒有想過重返香港回到中國人的社會﹖ 陳﹕我想是沒有。因為我應該比其他的中國人幸運﹐我能講英文。的確﹐我如果回香港﹐生活沒有這裡艱難。但在這裡﹐我至少可以捍衛中國人的權利。我能夠為他們鳴不平﹐為他們爭取更多的利益。所以說﹐如果每個人都為自己考慮﹐那麼這個社會就不會有什麼發展了。 問﹕您在紐約上了幾年的學﹖ 陳﹕主要的問題是我要寄錢回香港資助我父親。我只是在晚上和週末上課﹐沒有在正規的學校受過培訓。剛開始的時候﹐你說過這邊的新移民不容易﹐過去也是一樣。我在衣廠做工﹐也當過保姆。要是能有錢賺﹐我就會去做﹐只要不是搶劫或是做什麼非法的事情。我也以此為榮﹐因為我用我辛辛苦苦賺來的錢來養活我父親和弟弟。 問﹕您在紐約和誰住在一起﹖ 陳﹕我租了一間房﹐自己一個人住﹐在皇后區。 問﹕是您現在住的地方嗎﹖ 陳﹕不是﹐我後來又搬了幾次家。 問﹕現在您在哪裡住﹖ 陳﹕還在皇后區﹐緬街。 問﹕噢﹐發拉盛。 陳﹕是發拉盛。 問﹕是個中國人的聚居區。 陳﹕是的。 問﹕您是不是後來又在唐人街的St. Vincent's工作﹖ 陳﹕我在ILGWU的工會康復中心做了十六年半的臨床主任﹐因為我的CEO﹐是個猶太人﹐對我非常非常好﹐就像我的親父親一樣﹐教了我很多東西。後來人員有了變動﹐新的CEO接任後﹐整個兒的政策都變了。所以﹐他的確有跟我講﹐他說﹐“陳﹐我覺得你不會太適應這個工作環境。”在那時﹐他是一家療養院的董事會成員﹐他說﹐“陳﹐也許你可以考慮在療養院工作。”我說﹐“療養院不是我的專長。我喜歡快節奏﹐我喜歡門診﹐我喜歡急診室。療養院不適合我。”他說﹐“陳﹐不要太早下結論。你先考慮一下。”後來﹐我發覺事情並不像我想象的那樣﹐我就想﹐“也許現在是我換工作的時候了。”但當時那個療養院是在布朗士區﹐我住在布魯克林區。我父親當時和我住在一起﹐他已經八十多歲了。所以﹐搬家對他來講不太容易﹐還要再適應新的環境。於是﹐我就考了駕駛執照 - 幸好我通過了考試 - 我就跟他講﹐“現在我能夠去那裡上班了。”否則的話﹐我上下班要花三個小時。我還記得﹐我頭一天晚上買的車﹐轉天就上班了。我開車開了有一個半小時﹐但找不到療養院。我平時開車比較辛苦﹐但我在療養院學了不少東西。那是家猶太人的療養院 - 就我一個中國人。但唯一的問題是我的性格﹐我更加喜歡做病人護理。每天晚上十點下班﹐十一點到家。轉天早晨六點又要工作。我非常勞累﹐還出了幾次車禍。 因此﹐我認為這份工也許不適合我。當時﹐St. Vincent's在招人。我那裡有個朋友要退休﹐想讓我接手。我就去了St. Vincent's。 那次面試很有意思。我甚至跟St. Vincent's的主任和副院長講我可能不會適應St. Vincent's的環境﹐因為我比較有闖勁。我說﹐“如果你們接受不了我的態度﹐我們就沒有必要再繼續面試了。”結果他們同意要我了。實際上﹐在同意之前﹐他們已經做了些安排﹐已經準備好讓我接手了。於是﹐我欣然接受了這份工﹐儘管我的工資沒有以前高﹐頭銜也降了。在療養院我是護士長助理。這裡有524個床位﹐而且他們許諾現任護士長退休後我可以接任。我總是有個夢想﹐想以後開一家中國人的療養院﹐幫助亞洲人團體。而且﹐那個時候我已經很疲勞了﹐健康第一嘛。所以﹐我決定離開療養院去St. Vincent's工作。然而﹐療養院的那些人還跟我講﹐“Selina﹐記住﹐如果是因為錢的問題﹐我們可以把工資漲上去。”我說﹐“不是錢的問題。我的興趣還是中國人的團體﹐中國病人。”他們還是跟我講﹐“那邊如果干得不開心﹐給我們打個電話﹐轉天你就可以過來上班。”我說﹐“多謝你們的一番心意﹐我會記住的。”但我一直沒有回去。(笑) 我有回去看望過﹐但沒有回去工作。 問﹕您決定來St. Vincent's工作是不是考慮到地點在唐人街﹖ 陳﹕是的。還有﹐無論發生什麼事情﹐我總是中國人。我內心深處為自己是中國人而感到自豪。我想把我學到的東西貢獻給中國人團體。也許我能做的並不多﹐但至少我能盡一份力。能夠幫到一兩個人我已很開心了。 問﹕我想先岔開一下話題。聽起來您很長一段時間都在學習工作﹐您有沒有時間談戀愛﹖您結婚了嗎﹖ 陳﹕沒有。我還是單身。這是個大問題。實際上﹐我在工會做事的時候﹐工資是很低的。而且﹐我弟弟需要錢讀書﹐需要我資助。我總是做兩份工。星期一到星期五我在工會上班﹐星期六和星期天我做私人護理。有些病人很喜歡我﹐讓我一天工作二十四個小時﹐就好像我每個星期工作九天一樣。所以﹐我的確沒有精力考慮個人問題。 問﹕那麼﹐您一輩子差不多都在做護士這行。 陳﹕是的。有時病人對你評價好﹐你會感到很關心﹐你會真地感覺到﹐“哇﹐我的確改變了一些人的生活。”我有一個私人病人﹐是個猶太男的﹐受了槍傷。當我開始接管的時候﹐他脖子以下全部癱瘓了。到了最後﹐他居然能開車了。儘管癱瘓﹐他還能開車。我帶他到處走﹐帶他去戲院﹑去看電影﹑去吃飯﹐我們甚至去旅遊。他甚至說﹐“你就像我的家人。沒有你﹐我不可能總出來旅遊。”我甚至帶他去他兒子從醫學院畢業的畢業典禮﹐在哈佛﹐波士頓。我和他坐飛機一起去的﹐一切都是我照顧的。我感覺很好﹐有時這種滿足感是很不一樣的﹐是不能用金錢來衡量的。 問﹕如果您母親還在世﹐能看到您的工作成勣的話﹐您想她會說什麼﹖ 陳﹕她會為我感到自豪的。我現在在St. Vincent's工作﹐我懂中文。我們中國病人的教育程度普遍比較低﹐不像那些美國人有些基礎的醫學知識。所以﹐有些病人和我們溝通有困難。我都會盡力幫助他們。如果你幫助了一些人﹐你會覺得很開心的。 問﹕好的。我現在要談一下911。您能否給我們簡短地介紹一下唐人街St. Vincent's的情況﹖在911之前﹐你們主要治療哪些病人﹖是不是大多數的病人都是門診﹖ 陳﹕St. Vincent's在唐人街的診所是在1976年成立的。在那個時候﹐有很多中國女孩子嫁到美國來﹐她們沒有醫療保險。所以﹐為照顧這些人的需要﹐St. Vincent's設立了產科。我們在唐人街開了診所來幫助那些新來的孕婦移民。那是我們在唐人街的診所的雛形﹐我們在Park Row。我們實際上是在一家教堂的後面買了一個小房間。 在那些嬰兒出生後﹐又有了設立兒科的需要。所以﹐我們又設立了兒科﹐搬到了東百老匯。後來﹐那些嬰兒逐漸長大﹐他們的母親的年紀也大了﹐又有了設立綜合醫院的需要﹐我們就又搬到新的地址﹐在Canal Street和Elizabeth的交口處。所以﹐St. Vincent's的歷史就改變了。St. Vincent's的醫療水平高﹐但他們比較低調﹐沒有在唐人街登廣告﹐只是病人之間的推薦。所以﹐唐人街很多人都不大知道St. Vincent's。在911的時候我的教姐在中國旅遊。她在那邊轉了一大圈兒﹐最後還要去北京看望在那兒的親戚。所以﹐當時我和她的母親一起住在長島。所以﹐我那天早上是開車上班的﹐路上有很多車。我在車上聽到很多救護車和警車的聲音。 問﹕那時是幾點鐘﹖ 陳﹕九點十分左右。甚至在我到市區之前﹐路上已經是很擁擠了。到底是怎麼回事﹖誰也不知道。打開收音機後﹐聽到有飛機撞到世貿中心。因為我當時在BQE(布魯克林區和皇后區的高速公路)上﹐我能看到世貿中心。我看到姊妹塔中的一座已在冒煙。然後突然間﹐我看到另外一架飛機又撞上了另一座。當時﹐我的眼淚都流了下來。我年輕的時候就來到了紐約。儘管我不是在美國出生的﹐世貿中心是紐約的標誌。人都是有感情的﹐它就像我的家人一樣。想到有很多人在世貿中心工作﹐我的眼淚立刻流了下來。在開車的時候﹐我的手都在顫抖﹐整個人都好像不知道要做什麼。後來﹐我看到整座樓都倒了。幸好我還可以把車停到曼哈頓橋布魯克林區一邊。我找了一個地方停車﹐走上布魯克林橋。我過了橋到了曼哈頓。我看到很多人﹐還有警察﹐他們都跟我講﹐“你應該向另外一個方向走。”我說﹐“不﹐不﹐我在醫院工作。我在唐人街有診所。我必須去St. Vincent's報到。我是去那個方向。”於是﹐我過了橋到了醫院﹐料理了一下事情﹐確保所有的孕婦都沒有問題﹐我的員工也沒有問題。然後﹐我們又開了個員工會議。 我讓一半的人留下﹐確保病人能夠安全到家﹐或者有人來接他們﹐或能夠坐車回家。然後﹐我帶著另外一半員工去St. Vincent's幫忙。當我們到St. Vincent's附近的時候﹐那是個非常非常感人的情景。因為我們不能打電話同醫院聯繫﹐我們不知道那邊的情況怎麼樣。於是﹐我們步行到St. Vincent's﹐走了差不多有五六個街口。我們看到一些人在排隊﹐大家都在自告奮勇﹐有的人甚至說﹐“抽我的血﹐抽我的血﹐我是O+型血。”你的確感到你的心在為他們痛哭流淚。是誰說在紐約人們不互相幫助﹖在那個時刻﹐你感到我們是團結在一起的。我們互相幫助。他們的確是想幫忙。當我們走過那些排隊的人群的時候﹐有些人大聲地向我喊﹐“為什麼我們都排隊﹐他們卻在我們的前面﹖”我們祇得向他們出示ID。我們到了醫院﹐想進去幫忙。還有一些傷心的事情。當我們到急診室的時候﹐看到整個醫院的員工全部在場﹐包括每一個醫生﹐護士﹐甚至護士助理。我們的擔架﹑輪椅﹐以及所有的器械都在那裡。警察把第六大道和第七大道全部戒嚴供救護車使用。但是﹐沒有一輛救護車到。後來有一輛救護車趕到﹐大家都非常高興。我們在鼓掌﹐歡迎救護車的到來。倒不是我們希望有人受傷﹐而是我們感到還有人活著﹐我們能夠幫忙。 問﹕為什麼沒有救護車來呢﹖ 陳﹕因為沒有人活著。沒有人還活著需要送到醫院搶救。當別人把他們挖出來的時候﹐已經來不及救護了。這是令人傷心的部分。所以﹐當有救護車到醫院﹐這就意味著還有人活著﹐還有機會。 問﹕現在﹐整個兒St. Vincent's都在25 Elizabeth Street﹐對嗎﹖ 陳﹕不﹐只是門診所。我們醫院還是在第七大道十二街。 問﹕所以那個地方還沒有戒嚴﹐就像那天的唐人街。 陳﹕是的。但問題是我們有一個外傷中心。當時我們是曼哈頓下城的唯一一間外傷中心。所以﹐我們能夠處理所有的外傷病人。這就是為什麼所有的重大外傷病人都要送到St. Vincent's。 問﹕在十二街的那家﹖ 陳﹕是的。還令人感動的是那天有很多其他醫院的醫生﹑私人醫生到我們這裡報到﹐包括St. Vincent's其他地方的員工﹐無論他們在哪裡。還有其他醫院的護士﹐即使她們不上班﹐都來這裡自願來幫助。所以﹐我們沒有太多的事情做。而且﹐我還記得我們設立了一個家庭中心﹐讓那些家屬找到在世貿中心的親人﹐無論他們是在醫院﹐還是在現場。我也自願參加了﹐聽到很多傷心的故事。你的心都在為他們痛哭。情緒很難控制﹐因為你感覺是他們中的一份子。那個時刻的確很不容易。 問﹕那天您有沒有想過來唐人街的門診所﹖ 陳﹕那天我在診所。 問﹕您在診所。 陳﹕是的。我們有另外一間診所在世貿中心附近﹐Ground Zero﹐在St. Margaret House。在911之後﹐沒有辦法再去St. Margaret House。甚至在St. Margaret House的門診所也關閉了。但是我知道St. Margaret House的病人還沒有被疏散。有很多老人住在那裡。所以﹐我到了Fifth Precinct問那裡的警察。我說﹐“我的門診所在St. Margaret House。我只是想過去看一下。你們能不能帶我過去﹐去St. Margaret﹖”他們就帶我去了。這是轉天的事情。我到了St. Margaret House﹐那天晚上那裡沒電沒水。後來﹐他們找來一臺應急發電機﹐恢復了供電﹐ 然後分發了一些瓶裝水。因此﹐我得以又在St. Margaret House待了幾天。我也是在那邊睡的。因為如果有人生病﹐我也能夠幫上忙。而且﹐St. Margaret House的醫護人員都已經很疲勞了。至少我在那裡過夜可以讓他們休息一下。他們可以在晚上睡些覺﹐我接替了夜班。因為我的醫院裡有很多的志願者和醫護人員﹐St. Margaret那裡缺少人手。所以﹐我去了St. Margaret。 問﹕您個人的經歷以及職業訓練中有沒有哪些事情為您準備了這一天﹐這樣的災禍﹖ 陳﹕這麼跟你說吧﹐我曾當過療養院的護士長。州裡有規定要求我們為一些突發事件做些應急的準備。在St. Vincent's也是一樣的。我們要做很多的應急準備﹐每年還要演習兩次。我記得有一次療養院的一個管道破裂了﹐很多水沖到一間病房。在早晨兩點鐘﹐我被叫起來。於是﹐我開車到了療養院。我們必須疏散所有的病人﹐把他們轉移到其他病房或大禮堂。我們必須關掉所有的電源﹐確保電工不會因為碰到水而觸電。所以﹐我從那次經歷中學到在大多時候如何應付緊急情況。而且﹐我還擔任過醫務指導員教授護理。所以﹐我總是記得在我給醫務人員講課的時候﹐我反復強調一件事情﹐“發生緊急情況後﹐最糟糕的事情就是慌亂。無論發生什麼事情﹐要給自己一分鐘的時間﹐深吸一口氣﹐考慮下一步要做什麼。這樣比你們慌亂要更有好處。”作為指導員﹐我能夠教我的員工做這些﹐所以﹐我總是能夠自己記住應該怎樣做。我認為這些對我都有幫助。 問﹕那是唐人街的那個地方﹖我想再集中談一下Elizabeth Street的St. Vincent's的情況。因為唐人街的很多地方都被戒嚴了﹐煙也比較濃﹐有沒有很多人跑到診所不知道該做什麼﹖當時的情景如何﹖ 陳﹕我們的樓是寫字樓﹐所以診所的標誌不是很明顯。別人不想讓它太明顯。但有人在St. Margaret House﹐因為那裡離Ground Zero很近。在St. Margaret House能夠看得很清楚。你會看到所有的灰塵﹑煙和落下來的東西﹐以及世貿中心倒在Fulton Street上。即使世貿中心的玻璃屋頂都蓋滿了灰塵。還有人們進來時的樣子﹐都在驚慌叫喊﹐的確是很可怕的場景﹐非常恐怖。但唯一的是﹐我們與紐約同呼吸共患難。我們一起經歷過﹐一起工作﹐互相幫助。我仍然能夠清楚記得在家庭中心有很多的年輕人進來提供給我們食物﹑飲料和其他便利。為什麼有人說年輕一代不像我們年老的一代人﹖我不這樣認為。在911的時候﹐你真地會感覺到年輕人的確會彼此幫助。我為他們感到驕傲﹐真的很驕傲。 問﹕您有沒有覺得那天您做的一些事情讓您自己都感到很驚訝﹖ 陳﹕我覺得以我的職業態度我並沒有覺得驚訝。如果我能夠參與的話﹐我會盡力的﹐為什麼不呢﹖大家都應該伸出援助之手。 問﹕St. Vincent's是怎樣建立的﹖是私立還是 - ﹖ 陳﹕是個天主教的機構﹐是靠天主教會的捐款成立的。在911期間﹐我們把醫院裡大部份的病人都送走了。我們把整個兒醫院騰出來接受因911受傷的病人﹐而且﹐我們清理了幾層樓供警察和消防員使用﹐提供他們床位休息或洗澡。我們整所醫院都投入到911。我們對此還是很有準備的。令人傷心的是﹐在此之後我們很多的員工都要接受心理治療﹐因為他們目睹了很多不幸的事情。我們親眼目睹和聽到了很多不幸的事情。 問﹕有沒有哪一個病人給您留下了很深的印象﹖ 陳﹕有。在家庭中心我見到一些受害者的家屬哭著進來。其中有一個小伙子說他父親長年坐輪椅。他那天早晨和他的女朋友一起去Windows of the World﹐後來就再也沒有聽到他的消息。另外一個故事是一個遊客和他的全家人要去世貿中心觀望臺﹐但那裡九點之後才開門。他的女兒說肚子餓﹐所以﹐他出去為他們買早餐。當他回去的時候﹐他已經進不去了。所以他再也沒有見到他的太太和女兒。我們聽到了很多的故事。一位女士跟我講﹐她在大樓倒之前還和她先生通過電話。我猜想是她先生打電話給她﹐說他要坐電梯下樓﹐然後大樓就倒了。我們聽了這麼多的不幸﹐沒完沒了。如果你問我故事﹐我會一直講下去﹐因為有很多很多。 問﹕您在醫院待了有多久﹖ 陳﹕我們待在那裡﹐直到醫院說有太多的志願者﹐我們必須輪流換班。我們沒有供志願者睡覺的地方﹐甚至沒有足夠的洗手間﹐這說明志願者太多了。食物倒不是問題﹐因為我們得到很多的捐贈。所以﹐院裡叫我們回家﹐還讓我們留下手機或傳呼機號碼以便保持聯繫。我想我們是晚上十一點離開的。 問﹕在當天﹖ 陳﹕在當天。有些人九點左右走的﹐有些人七點左右就走了。但我們又待了一段時間。第二天﹐我九點鐘到了醫院。因為我們仍然能夠和診所的病人聯繫﹐我們就打電話給他們﹐跟他們講﹐“不要過來﹐因為樓已經被封了。”我們不想讓病人來唐人街後發現已經進不來了。我們必須要提前通知他們要怎樣做。如果他們生病了﹐他們可以去St. Vincent's醫院的總院。後來﹐我有去診所。但我進不去。於是﹐我就去了警察局﹐然後又到了St. Margaret House。 問﹕顯然﹐911對很多人來講是很困難的一段時期。儘管您本人沒有在世貿中心現場﹐作為一名護士﹐在您看到這些不幸之後有沒有接受任何心理治療﹖ 陳﹕實際上﹐我為那些經歷了911的人組織了幾次心理治療講座﹐特別是為在St. Margaret House的病人。那些老年病人的病房的窗戶是朝向世貿中心的。他們看到了發生的一切。我記得有一個病人告訴我她嘴裡沒有味道了。她有一個星期不能睡覺和進食。他們不懂得他們自己也因911受到了創傷﹐卻認為只是一般的身體不適。但我組織了幾次專題研討會﹐請了一名精神病醫生去St. Margaret House﹐並使用了英文﹑中文﹑以及西班牙語﹐給了他們提供了一個表達自己想法的機會。有些老年人甚至說他們不能再向窗外望了﹐因為以前每天早晨他們起床後向窗外望會看到世貿中心。現在﹐當他們打開窗戶後姊妹塔已經不見了。就好像他們自己失去了什麼﹐失去了象征。這是一段艱難的時期。所以﹐我們做了很多的心理輔導。還有﹐我自己也病了一個星期﹐然後也參加了心理治療和專題研討會。所以﹐我也是受益者之一﹐但我們做這些主要是為了幫助其他病人。 問﹕是不是大多數在唐人街St. Vincent's的病人都是中國人﹖ 陳﹕是的。差不多百分之九十五都是中國人。最近﹐我們有有些俄羅斯﹐西班牙﹐愛爾蘭﹐和意大利的病人。 問﹕能不能大致講一下您的病人都是一些什麼樣的中國人﹖他們是不是新移民﹖是不是有些人有醫療保險﹐有些人沒有﹖ 陳﹕我們的確有很多新移民。差不多有60%的病人都是新移民。但我們也有一些老移民。 因為我們診所在唐人街已經開了有26年了﹐有一些病人是第三代移民。祖母在這裡生下了女兒﹐女兒又在我們診所和醫院生了孩子。所以﹐有的人全家都是我們的病人﹐實際上很多病人都是我們的老病人介紹來的。以前﹐我們社區主要是廣東人﹐現在有很多福建人﹐所以現在很多病人都是福建人。剛開始的時候﹐診所裡主要講廣東話和臺山話。有意思的是﹐我是在美國學的臺山話。我還記得在唐人街做的第一份工時的情景。我本人是上海人﹐我講上海話﹑普通話和廣東話。一天﹐一個臺山病人進來跟我說﹐“你不講中文。”我說﹐“你為什麼說我不講中文﹖我講三種方言。”然後﹐他們就跟我講﹐“不對﹐你的中國話不是中國話﹐臺山話才是中國話。”所以﹐我想﹐我要用六個月時間把臺山話學好。我果然做到了。現在﹐紐約再沒有人講臺山話了。現在是流行學普通話和福建話。現在在診所﹐我們大部份時間都是講普通話。這是因為新移民的組成不同了。 問﹕你們是否接受沒有醫療保險的病人﹖ 陳﹕是的﹐我們接受﹐因為我們是天主教會的慈善醫院。但我們通常會按照收入或百分比收一點錢。如果病人必須要做手術﹐我們只收非常低的費用。如果病人需要幫助的話﹐我們通常也會用慈善機構的錢幫助他們。我們做不到百分之百﹐但我們至少會盡力做到百分之七十或八十。我們有的病人患了重病。我們會幫他們做手術﹐料理一切事情。而且﹐我們還有個移民項目(Immigration Program)﹐幫助那些患艾滋病的非法移民。我們的確為他們做了很多事情。 問﹕911有沒有改變醫院的政策或組成結構﹖ 陳﹕我認為唯一改變的是我們對應急事件準備的投入。醫院對發生的那些悲劇性的事件會更加有所準備。我們醫院還設立了一個控制系統﹐以便今後發生類似事件我們會及時通知附近其他診所﹐指示他們需要做些什麼。 而且﹐我們要在St. Vincent's建一個新的急診室。這個急診室實際上是上一任市長Guiliani的提議。我們要將其命名為Rudolph Guiliani急診室。我們將會為化學攻擊做好準備﹐以及其他各種各樣對紐約市的攻擊。現在﹐這個修建計劃正在進行中﹐預計2005年能竣工。那時﹐我們將會有充分的準備應對任何緊急情況。 問﹕比如像炭疽熱﹖ 陳﹕是的。 問﹕我想談一下2003年﹐即今年。我們有另外一個突發事件 - SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome)。因為這裡是唐人街﹐很多人在中國﹐亞洲有親人﹐或從那邊來這裡﹐診所是如何應付SARS的﹖ 陳﹕我們很多病人非常慌亂。但有些病人還不錯。我們甚至跟病人講﹐“你近期去過中國。你在發高燒﹐而且在咳嗽。”我們會將病人帶到急診室隔離起來。 [有人敲門﹐採訪被中斷。簡短小聲的談話。] 問﹕對不起。您剛纔談到SARS﹐如果一位發高燒的病人進來。 陳﹕是的。我們會立刻給病人戴上面具﹐帶病人去負壓室。在我們的診所﹐我們用負壓隔離﹐所以空氣不會被帶出去。然後﹐我們會為病人做檢查。如果真是有嫌疑的病例﹐我們會立刻將病人放上救護車或出租車送到急診室。我們會記下最後和病人接觸的人的聯繫方式﹐然後再跟他們聯繫。病人一旦離開﹐我們會用漂白粉清掃房間﹐ 確保病菌不會再擴散。病人們對SARS都比較了解。沒有必要驚慌。並不是說所有從中國來的人都會有SARS。有的從中國來的人有相同的症狀是因為日夜旅遊造成的疲勞﹐或是有一點點的感冒。那時有很多的可能性﹐那陣子是發燒的高峰期﹐是過敏的高峰期﹐還有感冒﹐那個時候很多人都感冒了。這些同SARS的診斷非常相近。實在是沒有必要太驚慌。我還記得這麼一件事﹐有一個電話是從銀行打來的。出納員很驚慌。他們摸了鈔票。他們說﹐“病人也摸了鈔票﹐出納員接觸了鈔票後會染上SARS的。”所以﹐我們必須教育他們﹐病菌並不是通過這種方式傳染的。病菌在幾個小時後就會死亡﹐所以不會待在鈔票上傳染給銀行的出納員的。 問﹕您是什麼時候知道SARS的﹖ 陳﹕因為我每天都有讀中文報紙。當我們聽到在香港和大陸發生的事情後﹐我們知道有很多人要從香港那邊過來﹐我們必須為此做好準備。實際上﹐我們是在旅行警告發佈之前就做好了準備。我們警告病人﹐如果你有發高燒﹑咳嗽﹑近期旅遊就儘快通知我們。後來﹐衛生部下達指示﹐我們就張貼出了公告去落實。 問﹕您處理過幾個病例﹖ 陳﹕很幸運﹐我們沒有收到病例。我們是很幸運的。我們接收了幾個病人﹐送他們去了急診室。我們問病人﹐“你要不要去急診室﹖”然後﹐我們聯繫了急診室﹐讓他們做好準備。等病人到後﹐用不著他們等﹐直接把他們送到隔離室。幾個病人在 醫院隔離室待到他們的唾液化驗結果出來後﹐X光片證實他們不是SARS患者。所以﹐我們沒有這種病例﹐一個也沒有。 問﹕唐人街在那段時間格外冷清。我記得那陣子街上的人都沒有平常多。醫院和診所有沒有安排你們去做宣傳教育人們﹐讓他們不要太慌張﹖ 陳﹕有。我們通常有一個電話系統。病人會打電話給我們﹐我們也會跟他們聯繫。因為我們都有後續跟進。我們建立了一種特殊的關係﹐好像是一家人。他們如果有什麼問題﹐總會跟我們聯繫。甚至他們會問我們﹐“我聽說有SARS﹐我應該怎麼做﹖”於是﹐我們就在電話裡跟他們講解。有的病人進來後甚至問﹐“我的孩子在上學﹐學校裡會有人咳嗽﹐我買不到面具。”我就訂購了很多面具﹐有時就乾脆送給病人 - “帶一些面具回去給孩子在學校和公共場所用。”後來他們發現這些面具不是給大人用的。有的時候﹐他們孩子咳嗽。所以﹐非常有必要預防他們傳染給家人。 問﹕您有沒有擔心過會影響到您自己的健康﹖ 陳﹕我從來沒有考慮過。我記得我在工會工作的時候發生的一件事。我當時在22樓。有一個病人在電梯裡昏倒。那個病人和我的一位同事在電梯裡﹐她知道我在22樓。她立即按下電梯的第22層﹐並大聲喊﹐“Selina﹐有一個病人在電梯裡昏倒了。”我到了電梯那裡﹐想都沒有想﹐就給那個病人做了人工呼吸。我們給病人做CPR﹐直到救護車趕到。後來﹐醫生甚至問我﹐“你要不要給病人驗血﹐看是不是有艾滋或肝炎感染﹖”我說﹐“我已經驗過了。我有幫助病人﹐救了病人﹐至少病人沒有死在我的手上。”後來﹐那個病人死了﹐但不是在當時。至少病人平安到達醫院﹐得到了應有的治療。我選擇做了護士﹐只是想幫助別人﹐我沒有考慮是否會危及我的生命﹐ 我從來沒有想過這些問題。沒錯﹐我需要保護自己。但出現緊急情況的時候﹐你顧不了那麼多。 問﹕在唐人街工作這麼長的時間了﹐您覺得唐人街有沒有足夠的設施滿足當地的需要﹖ 陳﹕我希望能再拓寬些場地。我認為唐人街的主要問題是我們有很多的私人的專業醫生﹐但因為很多醫療保險﹐比如Medicaid﹐HMO﹐Family Health Plus等﹐的報銷率很低﹐很多私人醫生不接受。像那些低收入的家庭﹐如果他們需要專業的治療﹐他們要去哪裡呢﹖去哪裡尋求幫助呢﹖我想我們在唐人街有足夠的空間能夠開設一些專門的科室接收那些低收入的病人﹐幫助那些低收入的病人和新移民。我認為我們還有空間。而且﹐我還相信另外一件事 - 競爭。這樣會促進服務質量的提高。讓病人有更多的選擇﹐有更多的醫院和醫生供他們選擇。這樣會促使我們大家一起發展。 問﹕您預計什麼時候會退休﹖ 陳﹕這一直是我的目標 - 我想在曼哈頓下城為亞洲人中國人或幫助他們建立一所療養院。我會繼續努力﹐即使我會在這個年齡退休﹐我還是想抽出一些時間志願幫助我們的社區。 問﹕很顯然﹐您一生花了很多時間和精力致力于護士這一行﹐為社區服務。您有沒有遺憾過沒有騰出一些時間來解決個人問題﹖ 陳﹕當然有。有時一個人回到家後感覺很孤獨。你會說這樣不好。但你不能再望回看。我不是算命的﹐如果我知道這樣或那樣的事情會發生﹐我不會這麼去做的。但這是不實際的。你如果總是停留在過去﹐你永遠也不會開心﹐對不對﹖你要永遠向前看﹐展望未來。的確﹐我做出了一些選擇﹐今後我的命運也因此定型了。這些已經是改變不了的了。應該望前看。 如果我能夠幫助一些社區的人﹐幫助一些中國人﹐我會很開心的。就是這麼回事。最重要的事是你自己開心。我對你重要。我並沒有期望得到回報。沒有。如果你付出﹐付出就是了。僅此而已。 問﹕您是否打算今後都要待在紐約﹖ 陳﹕也許我會待在紐約。如果我老了﹐我也許會回大陸或香港﹐因為生活在相同文化的社會裡會容易一些。如果我的身體還好的話﹐我一個人也能在紐約照顧自己。也許到了一定時候我會回中國的。無論發生什麼事情﹐我的根總是在中國。我們總是認為到了一定時候最好回中國渡過余生。就是有這麼一個想法。 問﹕您是否認為只有中國人才會有這種想法﹖您從九歲開始就離開了老家﹐一輩子大部份時間都在外面。但您仍然想在您開始的地方結束。 陳﹕是的。有的時候你的確是這麼想的。我想不僅是中國人這麼想。其他一些美國人也有同樣的想法。我和他們探討過﹐他們也是這樣認為的。人生只是一次旅行。就好像坐車一樣﹐車兩旁的事物都在變化﹐有時你的想法也總在變化。你不能說我這輩子一定會做什麼。同時﹐這是我回中國的感受﹐我看到中國也在變化。你就是會為自己是中國人而感到驕傲﹐為我們的發展感到自豪。 問﹕我們談了很多事情。您還有沒有什麼想和我們分享﹐但我還沒有提到的﹖ 陳﹕應該差不多了。你已經問得很詳細了。也許還有一件事我要提一下。在我們中國人社區 - 我知道也許其他社區也是一樣的 - 我們的確需要鼓勵年輕人回到社區。很多年輕人受到良好教育後搬到美國人社區﹐ 再也不回來了。所以﹐我們的社區需要新鮮的血液。當老一代人退休的時候﹐需要有新的一代人來幫助這個社區﹐建設社區﹐領導社區。所以﹐這是我真心希望看到的。這就是我為什麼志願參加Chinese-American Social Service and Health。我們想提供條件讓新一代人學習社區工作 - 雙語社區工作。這是唐人街所真正需要的。回到唐人街﹐幫助中國人。 問﹕這個項目要在互聯網上進行十年﹐然後交到國會圖書館保管﹐所以希望一些年輕人能夠聽到您的故事﹐有所啟發﹐然後回到社區。感謝您抽出時間接受我們的採訪。 陳﹕謝謝你的邀請。 問﹕我是Lan Trinh﹐美洲華人博物館Documentation Project。我們今天是在唐人街St. Vincent's採訪陳熬娣。非常感謝。 陳﹕也謝謝你。 [採訪完畢] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Selina Chan 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Frances Wong Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Ingrid Dudek Chinatown Interview: Date 0000-00-00 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation counsel. St. Vincent's Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: This is the Chinatown Documentation Project. This is Ingrid Dudek. Today is December 26, 2003, and let’s just get started. Could you just state your name and your date of birth? Wong: Oh, really? Date of birth, too? Wow. On the screen? Okay. Sure. [laughs] My name is Frances Wong. My Chinese name is Wong Lai Fong, and I use my middle initial, L. [birth date omitted per interviewee request]. Okay. Q: And you grew up in Chinatown. Wong: I was, yes, I was born and raised in Chinatown. Q: Where are your parents from? Wong: My parents are from Hoiping, which is right near a village right next to Toisan, China, and they---my father came here when he was sixteen, my mother came here when she was twenty-five. And so, my grandfather from, my paternal grandfather also came here when he was younger, so I’m kind of like, uh, I guess a, three and a half ---- Q: Generation. Wong:----Generation, yeah. Q: Your grandfather came here and stayed, or then he went back? Wong: He came here and stayed. His name was Charles Wong. He is buried in the Staten Island cemetery. So, yeah, he’s here. [laughs] Q: But your father was born and raised in China--- Wong: In China, right. He was born in---so they came, I guess he came here at age sixteen with his father. So I don’t know about my paternal grandmother, but--- Q: Your parents met here, then? Wong: No, actually, my father went back to Hoiping to, ah, marry my mother. Right. So, and this was his third marriage. Yeah, it was really sad. His first wife he met in Hoiping, China, but she died, and then he immigrated here, and met someone else here, Dorothy Wong, and she also died, and then that’s when he went, um---so I have like, one sibling from his first marriage, two siblings from his second marriage, a brother and a sister, and then he married my mother and I have three brothers, older brothers, and I’m the youngest. So. Q: So what’s the total, how many? Wong: Um, the total is four and three, is seven. Q: How old was he by the final marriage? Wong: Oh, how old was he? I think he married at, the third marriage was at fifty-five. Q: Really? Wong: I’m not sure, but I believe that’s so, yeah. Q: What did he do for work the whole time that he was here in the U.S.? Wong: Um, laundry, the laundry, yeah, meaning, not laundrymats, but, you know, actual ironing of shirts and sending things out and pressing, having it washed and coming back to the laundry to press it. We had laundries on the Upper East Side, and the Bronx. And Brooklyn, actually. Q: Did you mother work as well? Wong: My mother worked as well, in the laundry, she managed the one in Brooklyn, and my father did the one in, on the Upper East Side. Q: Did you and your brothers work in that as well? Wong: Um, I escaped it. They all did, and I was lucky, I was young then, so I didn’t have to do a lot of the work. But, ah, I can remember my brothers working really hard, and I had the fun, so they would ride a bicycle, they would put me in the carriage and they would deliver the laundry to people and I would get the benefit of sitting in the little basket [laughs] when they drove through Central Park, I mean, when they rode through Central Park, so I was fortunate that way. My brother Paul did that. Q: Where were you living when you grew up? Wong: Where was I living? Well, I guess I was living, we lived in the back of the laundries, um, until age five or six, and then we came back to Manhattan here, in Chinatown, on Henry Street, where I went to P.S. 1, and P.S. 2, and I went to the local junior high school, which is Junior High School 56, and I went to the local high school, too, which is Stewart Park High School. Q: So you’re local all the way? Wong: I’m a local all the way. Except for when I went to college, and I went to Cornell for my Bachelor of Science degree in human development and family studies, and then I went to University of Penn, where I have my Masters in Social Work. Q: When you say, " the back of the laundries," do you mean the ones in the Bronx? Wong: The Bronx, and you know, I kind of traveled, you know, to all of them. Q: You moved around? Wong: Yeah, I moved around when I was ages one to five. Yeah, that’s the kind of life---I can’t remember a lot of it, ‘cause that’s when I was real young, but, yeah. Q: How old was your father then, when you were born? Wong: Um, he was probably around fifty-eight. Q: Okay. Well. Wong: Very interesting, huh? He actually, he, he, passed away when I was twelve. Q: Oh. He was seventy. Wong: So, yeah. Q: And your mother? Wong: My mother, um, passed away about three years ago, in 2000, and, ah, there’s a story in there that I would like to tell a little bit later, which has really effected my life deeply. Um, I don’t know, should I---I guess we could--- Q: Did you want to--- Wong: ---To talk about it now, or more about the pa---- Q: Well, could you talk a little more about um---- Wong: ---growing up in Ch---- Q: ---growing up, yeah. Wong: Yeah, I would love to talk about growing up in Chinatown. Um, I guess, ah, [sighs] in Chinatown, what really had a big influence in my life was playing basketball. So ages twelve or thirteen through seventeen, basketball had a major effect on my life. It gave me a place to have peers, a place to go to. Most of all it helped me develop my leadership skills, and my commitment to being in community. Um, even while I was growing up I always wondered, why did---well, my mother started, after the laundries, started working in the garment factories and the sweatshops, and I would go up and I would see all this poverty and struggle. And so I started writing papers when I was young about racism, I started finding out about um, Chinatown and the need for Chinatown, that ranged across the states because of fear of being attacked, you know, there are---numerous, numerous Chinese were attacked and killed and they were, you know, throughout our history, since the 1800s, since arriving here. So I read a lot of that, and I said, Jeez, there’s just a lot of racism, it’s just so unfair. So, um, you know, I wrote papers, and then, um, basketball, even when we did tournaments, I ran some tournaments, and we even dedicated that to, we called it the Rock Springs Memorial for the people that died in Rock Springs, Arkansas, in Arkansas. You know, for the Chinese people that were attacked and killed. So, what happened was, a couple of things. Basketball also gave me---it gave me, when I say leadership skills, I knew what I wanted to do, it just gave me skills, I developed a sense of competency, which I hope that kids now will develop. That’s why I’m interested in this Asian-American Youth Center, in developing a youth center in the community. Um, yeah, cause we used to just play outside in the parks, or played at P.S. 1, at Columbus Park. Anyway, so getting back to basketball. I also, it just so happened my coach was from Taiwan, and so he had a dream of taking a girls’ team back to Taiwan, to play against the Taiwan girls. We went to Hong Kong and Japan. So it was really pretty wonderful to have that when you’re growing up in Chinatown and the only world you know of is----Well, actually, in Chinatown, you would say that it’s Chinatown, but it was really very mixed at that point still. Where, you know, there were African-Americans, Latinos, um, and Jewish-Americans. So it was really a great community to grow up in, because, you know, I really, there were differences, but um, it, we accepted each other. So, actually, so having all of that just really helped me to develop my sense of multiculturalism, um, my belief that we could really succeed together, and of course, I wasn’t a child of the ‘60s, I was a little young then, but I benefited from Martin Luther King, John F. Kennedy’s moves, and it was just really wonderful. Q: Because this would have been, what, in the early ‘70s? Wong; In the early ‘70s, yeah, between ‘70---I played basketball in, I guess, ’73 to ’76, that was my high school days. Q: And there were a lot of identity politics movement at the time? Wong: Oh, definitely, yeah. At that point, um, I think we had our first riot. That Chinatown had the first protest against police brutality, down here in City Hall. And, I mean, you probably have pictures of that, but yeah, it was a really interesting time to grow up because, you know, I guess I’m a pioneer now, or then, but, still a lot, there were a lot of things happening, so it was really a good time to grow up. And I guess we were developing our awareness about things that shouldn’t be. Yeah. Q: It was quite a different Chinatown then, too. Wong: It was a smaller Chinatown. And mostly Cantonese, the people from Toisan, or Hoiping, or Canton. Or Hong Kong. And there were some people here, there were families still from China and from Taiwan. So there---but the first immigrants here were, and I’m sure that you already have this documented---were the indentured servants that, I don’t know if I should go into all this, yeah? [sirens, and cross-talk about sirens] Wong: Should I mention the indentured servants? I don’t think I need to, right, because other people---- Q: Sort of in passing, yeah. So let me just say it again, it was a different Chinatown then, cause probably there were also more residents than commuters like there are now too. Wong: Oh, yeah, definitely more residents. We all, I guess at that point there were a lot of people that still lived in Chinatown. Um, but were looking to move out. Like my, I grew up in a basketball family. My brothers all played basketball, so I was very lucky to be in a family where my brothers encouraged me to play basketball. It gave me, in high school, you know I played high school basketball also, and having an outside team. It just gave me something extra. Also it was great on my extracurricular activity form for college. So. Q: So these were also like community-initiative teams? They weren’t like the YMCA, they weren’t through school. Wong: No, they were community-initiative, yeah. It came about from people like, actually you might know him, this guy named Tai Ma, who is now an actor, and he’s in Hollywood. But Tai, Tai’s vision was to have a basketball tournament. This is from, you may know Fay Chang, from Basement Workshop, or if you do know Fay Chang from Basement Workshop, so she developed Basement Workshop, Tai did, for probably one or two summers, I don’t know, these ah, basketball tournaments. The Chinatown Y didn’t come about until maybe ’76 or so, yeah, so, but yeah, these were grassroots organizations just getting together and trying to get the kids together out there to play. And, I mean, right now I’m part of a grassroots organization, it’s called the Asian-American Youth Center, and our vision is to create and get funding for a youth center. And the youth center that we envision is one that has basketball and has, you know, a gym in it. But I, of course, since I’m into mental health, I would love to be able to lead workshops on leadership skills, get kids ready----I wish I’d had that, actually. That would have probably helped me to understand the world of politics a little better now, and how to deal with the politics. But also just teaching kids skills about grounding, centering, um, knowing when to go forward and when to step back, when to be more aggressive and when to be assertive, and how, what’s the difference because we all fluctuate between being aggressive and passive, especially Asians growing up here, we are all very passive, and, but, we grew up in the schools here, so we learned how to be aggressive and assertive. So. Um, I would love to be able to do, to do some workshops with kids that way. And at St. Vincent’s we’re working, we’re doing mental health in the schools and stuff like that, but I think I’d like to do more large workshops just to do a skill development. Yeah. Q: So your interest in sort of, um, community activity which maybe started, or you attribute to the basketball period in your life---- Wong: I think so. I think so. Q: --- When did you start more sort of community social service work, actively, how did that come about? Wong: Um, well, I went to---After high school, I went to Cornell. And at Cornell, I decided from then that it was very much a culture shock being up there. Because, here I am, I’m used to the city environment, and I’m used to people just related, but it was, ah, it was really different at that point. I was one of the few Asian-Americans that went to college in, I started in 1976. So I had decided back then already, I said, after I graduate, I’m coming back to work in the community, and I decided I really then, never left the community actually. So I was able to get an internship there, where I worked with the Chinese-American Planning Council. I had one semester where I worked with youth. It was called Project Reach and it’s still in existence now. Don Kao does that now. But at that point, it was Peter Fong, and then David Chen. David Chen is now the executive director at CPC. But back then, you know, we were just all doing youth work. So it was a great experience. It was a prevention program, preventing kids from using drugs and also preventing them from going into gangs. Because at that point, there were kids that were really just dropping out of school, they didn’t have the bilingual programs, they didn’t have bilingual counselors, um, and there were a lot of, you know, new immigrants. As you know, probably in 1965 is when they lifted the, ah, what’s it called, the Chinese Exclusion Act, and the Chinese started immigrating here finally. Q: What do you mean, just to back up a second, by "culture shock" in Cornell? Wong: ---At Cornell? [laughs] It was a non-Asian, um, it was really more of a white environment, and it was very hard at that point, because I was looked at differently. Um, I had, um, I felt different, very, very different. Not like I was here---I mean, I was here----I grew up in Chinatown and you know, there were African Americans and Latinos and Jewish, but going there, there was not a lot of that, it was mostly people from all over the country, but white. So it was just very different there, and I felt different, sometimes devalued. Sometimes devalued. Sometimes, um, good, but mostly I felt racism. Yeah, mostly. And actually it was great because Cornell had racism courses and I went, and I took a racism course, and then after I graduated I continued to work in Chinatown in the Adolescent Vocational Exploration Program, where we were able to, like, place kids in the summer with other people in the different professions, computer, typography, everything. And then, they really got a lot from those programs. But then I went to the University of Pennsylvania because they have a dedication to eradicate racism, and so we had to take courses on American racism two years, for two years. So, um, it has been a pretty interesting experience. After the University of Pennsylvania I came back to Chinatown. I worked in the Chinatown Health Clinic, just developing their services for Chinese-Americans, and then I worked at the Chinese-American Planning Council, developing a program for Asian victims of domestic violence. Back then we called them "Asian battered women." But, um, we also, and it was quite difficult watching women struggle, because they were being beaten, they came here and they didn’t know what their rights were. And actually a lot of these women are more fortunate because they’re here. In China they might have continued to be beaten, but because they were here, they could see a different life, so I was glad to provide that service that they could live violence-free, and that they didn’t have to accept or tolerate it. In Chinese there’s a huge word for "tolerate" and for years and centuries, you know, women have tolerated being beaten. Being psychologically beaten, too, by their husbands. Q: Is it a program that’s still running? WONG: The program is not really running right now, but there’s also the Asian-American,---there’s the New York Asian Women’s Center, that is still in existence, and I had volunteered for the hotline back then. So there was a 24-hour hotline for women to call, for Asian women to call, that’s in different dialects of Chinese. So, um, recently----I don’t know if I should talk about this, but recently one of the women came here, um, and the struggle still goes on. She still has no place to go, she’s still a new immigrant, she’s beaten, she has no place to go, so I’m very glad that she was able to go to, you know, a shelter. A shelter. So, yeah. Q: You’ve worked at an incredible number of different social service centers, and probably have had a wide range of experience. Do you feel like different kinds of services, say, education or youth services are maybe more successful than others, or what kind of outreach is necessary to get the community to respond? Or is the community ready and waiting to do what they need to do? WONG: The community is not ready and waiting. It’s really very interesting how the media---media is very important all over. Even when I was at Cornell I was thinking, Jeez, if only the Chinese had a radio program we could do more public education. Well, lo and behold, it’s been very wonderful. You know, we have now the public radio station, 1480, um, and so that has proven to be--- you know, if you get on that program you become a household name and people believe in you, and it’s just, it’s pretty incredible that we’re able to reach more people. So, um, I think, actually 1480 is now, but back then it was the Sino-cast radio station, and the Cheng Hua radio station, and you had to buy boxes from each radio station to hear, to get the news. Now, you know, we’re lucky to get the 1480 and we’re trying to use that. Even though---- so services, through the radio and through newspapers really helps, so people need to develop, in my position, need to develop relationships with the media. Um, I guess, ah, the other thing that effected me---well, I’ve been in the community working for a long time. I had gone into administration in health care at Governer (?) Hospital, and I was the director for the Quality Assurance, Quality Improvement Program. But, um, and it was really good to work in administration. You saw the other side of how things work, and I felt like I could make an influence in the quality of care that the community would get in the hospital. But what deeply effected my life was that my mother got sick. And, um, it was a time to decide career or family. And definitely, I think, career came second. Family was really more important, although you know, all my life I had been very interested in my career, I wanted to take care of my mother, and that has made a big difference in my life. Because it made me really appreciate the time that I had with my mother, because I knew, she had probably---when she developed renal failure she probably had two years, three years at the most, and so I really wanted to spend that time with her. And it’s made me just appreciate life more, appreciate people, and I decided after that experience that I didn’t want to go back into administration directly. I decided to go to St. Vincent’s, to---I wanted to be of service to the community, and not just to the Asian-American community, but to the world, and that’s why, um, St. Vincent’s has a program called the World Trade Center Healing Services, um, dealing with people that had losses from 9/11, whether it was um, a personal loss with family members or a fiancée, or a job, or just that they were still continuing to have trauma and nightmares from just reliving the experiences of 9/11. I just wanted to be of service that way. And it’s made a lot of difference, a lot of difference, knowing that I can help people just normalize and have their lives back. Q: Has this been a very successful program? WONG: I feel that this program has been pretty successful. People in the Asian-American community, though, still have not come out a lot. You may know through the Asian-American Federation that they did a research study and only, they did their research in the community, through families, but one thing I can just tell you in terms of percentages, there is the Asian Life Net, which is a hotline for Asian-Americans to call about services. From 9/11, for two years, there was only a four percent increase in the hotline, which was not really a lot. I mean, no matter how much media we did, not a lot of people came out to talk about their 9/11 experiences. So, I --- my skills, I’ve really worked on helping people with trauma. And I feel like for the people that I’ve worked with it’s been very, very effective. In terms of what we’re doing here at St. Vincent’s. So, um, --- Q: How do you get clients there? Are they referred to you, or do they come in? WONG: Both, yeah. They’ve been referred to us, they’ve seen it in newspapers, and we haven’t gone to the radio yet, but we will be. I’ve only been here for six months, so--- Q: But do you feel there’s like an extra cultural reluctance to seek out, specifically therapy? WONG: Yes. Um, well, right, no one really wants to think of themselves as going to therapy in the Asian community because you’re considered crazy, and there’s so much shame and stigma attached to going for therapy. So what we’ve done at St. Vincent’s since 9/11 is provide auricular acupuncture, or ear acupuncture, and so we’re hoping to extend that to the Chinese-American community, and perhaps they would come for more services with ear acupuncture. We’re hoping to reach people more that way. Um, and just today I had---this is 12/26/03, and just today I had a new client, and he has gone for services, and I don’t know how successful I’ll be, but, I use a little hypnotherapy in my sessions, and I try to get people to feel safe. That’s one of the first things about healing, is to get people to feel safe. If they don’t feel safe, it’s hard to heal. So, um, yeah. Q: How do you deal with, um, sort of an abiding sense of shame? Is that something that you always have to work through when you’re dealing with the Chinese community in this way? WONG: Somewhat. I think by the time they come here, they’ve gotten over some of that shame. And what we do is we do work it out further here, by talking about it a little more, helping them to feel more grounded, centered, more entitled. I think a lot of the Chinese don’t feel entitled to anything---to the services, to the relief----so I think the Chinese-Americans are still having----they’re still on a learning curve. You know, they’re still learning to be in America, ah, learning what rights they have. Q: So that’s what you would attribute the reluctance to, sort of culturally? WONG: Um, could you--- Q: Well, in terms of low numbers, or in terms of outreach, or in terms of people taking advantage of the services, despite the media, and despite---- [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO] WONG: I think, okay, for instance, someone read the article and she just kept it in her drawer for a month before she came for services. I think people want to, but it takes time to develop the inertia to say, "Okay, I’m going to go for it, I’m going to call." And even if we say all the services are confidential, they’re still afraid that something could get out there, and they don’t trust that you won’t tell anyone about it. And that’s why I guess, um, going out there and doing hotline work, on the radio stations may help. Work, actually at the New York Asian-American Mental Health Coalition is developing a conference called Stigma, and so we’re trying to see what will de-stigmatize coming to the services. Maybe, maybe in the next ten years we could combat that. Cause there’s been a stigma attached to going for mental health services for such a long time, I don’t know if we can combat that, but hopefully, yeah. Q: Can you talk generally at all about what kind of [?] and issues people have, without being too specific, maybe across generations, or, are they professional, or are they just--- WONG: Oh, definitely, there’s a lot of professionals in the Chinese community that saw the whole collapsing of the towers, and they were very effected. So we’ve seen a couple of them, but not enough. The Chinese community were here. You know, they saw the towers falling, and some people, some people can’t stop crying, they go into the bathrooms to cry, um, ah, there are people that have lost their jobs because of that, and SARS then effected the Chinese-American community, and we just, just, one thing after the, the blackout, so, it’s just been taking such a toll on the community. Families still have maybe both---what’s the word for it----both parents still are out of jobs, and that really has a big impact on mental health. So, um what else --- Q: Can you, then, can you also direct them to other services? WONG: Um, yes, but there’s, there’s still only a couple of services, like there’s the Chinatown Manpower, where you could learn computer skills, there’s not a lot of---I mean, what they really need, the Chinese-American community, is jobs, but we don’t have a lot of jobs. But what I could do though is at least help ground them and heal those wounds that they’ve developed. And what we find with a lot of the Chinese-Americans is that they’re re-living that day, and they’re as anxious and depressed, so they’re reliving, and the anxiety and the depression doesn’t help. Q: And are the services here, how do they work? Are they free? WONG: The services here are free. Everything is free. And I would say the results are quite good. I would say after three sessions, some people are ready to go. After one session, [laughs] a professional woman was---I think what I do mostly is help connect people back to their resources, internal resources, their own skills, their own strengths, and feeling safe. And that goes a long way. That goes a long way in helping people to regain their sense of independence, their sense of themselves and their identities. Yeah. Q: How long do you anticipate this program---- WONG: This program’s going to go on a long time. St. Vincent’s really wanted to develop a trauma center, so, hoping I’m that, you know, we’ll be able to help more people, and especially, um, actually we’re just launching some of our outreach to the Chinese-American community, so I’m still hoping that we can be effective that way. Q: How would you say, um, this experience has changed your own relationship to your career and Chinatown, in terms of what you want to do and what projects, what parts of the community you want to engage and work with? WONG: Um, well, I’m probably doing too much right now, but you can’t help it, ‘cause you want to do a lot. This experience makes me appreciate life more, appreciate my friends, you know, it’s like, Joe was just here a minute ago, and I just said---he’s the administrator here---and I just really appreciate him, because I guess we’re always under threat, and we never know when, so it just has taught me to appreciate life more, and so, you know, I take time to say, "Geez, that was really nice of you---" you know, Joe, I just appreciate all that he does. He even bakes brownies for us. So we have good support here. But I’m working on the Asian-American Youth Center, which is a non-profit organization. Everyone on the board is a volunteer. Then there’s always Friends of Columbus Park. As I mentioned, I grew up playing basketball at PS 1 and at Columbus Park. And at Columbus Park right now we’re trying to rebuild, there’s money there to rebuild the pavilion, and what we’re trying to do is get the Parks Department to accept the community’s suggestions about how they re-do the park, what they do with the park and how they re-do the pavilion. The pavilion could be a community center. Right now it’s not, it hasn’t been utilized in about fifteen years, and it’s gone to the pigeons, and there’s money now, but, you know, we’re trying to work with the politicians, to get the Parks Department to understand that the community really needs their space. It’s just so important here. There really is no one community center here. Can you believe it? I mean, there’s the Chinatown Y, there are schools, public education schools, but we’d love to have a community center, where you can go and ask questions about what’s it like to be an immigrant here, what kinds of things should we learn. There are a lot of programs that try to do that, but there’s no one community where you can just go---there’s churches---but it’s different. It’s different, yeah. Q: Do you feel like it’s difficult to get the city to acknowledge that need, as well? WONG: Um, yes, I do. But I, we don’t know yet what to do, because we’re still pioneers, and we’re still struggling to understand the political system here and how to effect change. Yeah. Q: Which just sounds like a lot of the early ‘70s community-building work--- WONG: ---Yeah---- Q: ---which is what you’re returning to. WONG: Yes, I am, yeah. Q: I also wanted to ask, um ---I’m drawing a blank--- Can we stop for a second? WONG: I don’t know if you know this, but sometimes a mirror is grounding--- [crosstalk] Q: Okay, sorry about that. I wanted to back up and talk a bit more about the trauma program at St. Vincent’s and how that’s organized. Is it directed only at the Chinatown community, do you deal with other kinds of clients---- WONG: Oh yes, I do. I deal with all kinds of, a multicultural clientele here. Yeah. Q: And is it, is the program pitched to different communities? Or do you think this problem of entitlement is in some ways uniquely Chinese or also an immigrant experience in general? WONG: It is. You’re right. It’s an immigrant experience. We only have so much funding, but we’re trying impact the adults and also the children and the adolescents, so St. Vincent’s has been able to go into the school system, so at Schulz Park High School there is a Chinese counselor, there is, um, in IS 131 there is a Chinese counselor, St. Joseph’s there was one, she’s on maternity leave. But yeah, we’ve been trying to go into the Chinese community. And, yeah, there are English-speaking counselors, also. There are about twenty-five staff in the school systems. There’s only about four of us working with the adults. So I’m, ah, someone else and I are pretty much it for the Chinese-American community, but I don’t just work with the Chinese-Americans, I work with other clientele too. Yeah. Q: So you speak with Cantonese speakers, and English speakers--- WONG: ---and English speakers, right. Q: Would you say there are any sort of, generalized qualitative differences between the clientele you get from different communities compared to Chinese communities? WONG: Hhmmm. Qualitative, generalized---I think that there are more coping skills in non-Chinese communities, because they’re coming here as----okay, if it’s professionals in the Asian-American community, I think they have more coping skills. Q: What do mean by professionals? WONG: Um, I mean the Asian-American professionals, and, you know, people who work in banks, or stockbrokers, or ah, that, that, people that work down here in the Wall Street area. Yeah. Q: And then, compared to---- WONG: To the Chinese--- Q: --- to other kinds of --- WONG: ---Chinese immigrants who have only been here about two or three years, or even ten years, who are now out of jobs. I guess it has to do with the English language again, you know, depending on your ability to speak English, you can get different jobs. Q: Can you talk more about how the community responded to the SARS scares? WONG: How the community responded to it. Q: At least, through your clientele, through your observations. WONG: Well, we---the community knew that we weren’t affected by SARS, but there were so many rumors and people who wanted to believe that there was SARS in the community. Yeah, we had a march in, I think April or so, where we walked through Chinatown trying to let everyone know that, you know, "Chinatown is safe!" Even Mayor Bloomberg and Hilary Clinton came to the Chinese community to let people know that it was really safe to eat in Chinatown. But we were still deeply effected by it, still, economically it cut the community. It was pretty hard. I think we’re just starting now to, people know that there’s no SARS here. Q: I’m wondering also, do different kinds of issues of racism come up in your experience, in terms of, for example, how people perceive Chinatown and people deal with that in their daily lives? WONG: Can you ask me more about that? Q: Well, in terms, for example, of rumors of SARS, and then, how that effects people personally, or perhaps racism in every day life, say on the job, or just in the city. Have you come in contact with much of that, do you feel like that’s part of a major issue for people in general? WONG: I’m still not understanding your question, I think. I’m not sure--- Q: Well, I’m just curious about, um--- WONG: On my job here, or the community---- Q: Well, your job here or your general experience in direct service centers. WONG: Oh, okay, let’s see. Racism, I, when I went to the University of Pennsylvania, we were defining as race plus lack of resources plus fighting for those resources. I, I would say that yeah, SARS and the impact on Chinatown, there was an element of racism there. Sure, it was not knowing about this foreign population. Again, you know, we’ve only really been here for thirty years now, since ’65. Is that thirty years? It’s only twenty-something years. I mean, even though we’ve been here for a long time, but there was that Chinese Exclusion Act, and it wasn’t repealed for a hundred years. And so we’re still catching up. And so people still aren’t understanding. We’re the model minority. We’re really doing well in schools, we’re in colleges, but then what about the new immigrants in this Chinese-American community, and how, how do people look at them? Well, you know, it’s always class. There’s class and race differences, and sometimes in the community right now it’s class and race. And what I mean by that is, you know, they look at people who have different ways of expressing themselves, who seem perhaps, I would still use the word "savage," because they still probably think of Chinese as different, maybe having the lower class savage practices, as not being health. So, you know, why would you want to go to a community that still has a high rate of tuberculosis, a high rate of this and that, and so it has effected. I guess the other thing that recently came up was, well, was the Chinese-American, is the Chinese-American community still experiencing racism in politics and from, like the police department. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Park Row issue. The residents in Chatham Green and Chatham Towers, because they live right near, um, the First Police Precinct, they’ve had their lives changed as a result of 9/11. Majorly impacted, because they’re right there, and the streets are closed, and they have to live in a police state, so the kids grow up thinking they’re unsafe. So can you imagine what that is like, a police state? They always see police cars there. Plus, it’s effected, it also has taken away parking. So people, when they come, they used to come from let’s say, New Jersey or Long Island to come shop in Chinatown, there’s no parking. That whole street has been blocked off, and then the municipal parking was right underneath there. That’s been blocked off. So, yeah, I mean, so many things have affected the Chinese community. Q: So you see all these changes impacting the Chinese psyche? WONG: Psyche and mental health. Yeah, all these kids are growing up and thinking it’s not safe, it’s not safe. I walk outside and I have to have police protect me. Q: So then could you also talk more generally, either from professional experience or personal experience about how Chinatown has changed for you? Cause you’ve been here for awhile and you’ve also been very active for a good portion of that time. Cause there’s new immigrants, there’s new issues in the city government, all those things. WONG: Ingrid, I’m not sure how to answer that right now. [laughter] Q: How would you talk about the future of Chinatown? WONG: Yeah, I know, I want to give hope but I can’t feel it right now [laughs]. Okay. Got it. Okay. Oh, Gosh, the community is just so large, at this point, and it just makes me really happy that we finally have a larger percentage. The New York Chinese-American community is one of the---it is the largest Chinese-American community [aside: I’m sorry] across the country. It, okay I’ll say that again. The Chinese-American community is the largest across the country, for New York, and I think it’s, yeah, according to the 2000 U.S. 2000 census, it is the largest in Chinatown, Manhattan. And what’s wonderful is that we finally have some numbers, and hopefully, we’ll develop some voting capacity. I want to encourage every single person to go out there and register to vote, ‘cause that makes all the difference, all the difference in the eyes of the politicians. We need to develop our political power. And all the, the Chinese-American----because we have so many dialogues in Chinese, we’ve always had a lot of differences. People, the Chinese don’t know how to work with each other. And I, I guess through my days of working on facilitating this and facilitating workshops, I’m really hoping to facilitate some of that. But I don’t know. Really, a lot of it has to come from heart. People have to feel like they can trust each other. I’m really hoping that the Chinese-American leaders can work together to develop the community, and get services for the community, not just for oh, okay, my little pocket or my little pocket here. It’s again, scarcity of resources. But, um, you know, maybe the leaders can decide after we get the money how to divide it, but---- Q: Do you feel like there’s a possibility for that, because it seems to me that in some ways your experience is very unique in that you’ve stayed in the community and you’ve worked and lived here. Whereas often there’s a high turnover rate, some people choose to move out or not necessarily to reinvest in the community. WONG: Could you say---- Q: Do you have a sense that there’s sort of a growing critical mass of interest in working on these issues in Chinatown? WONG: Oh, yes, I actually sense that how 9/11 has effected people is that they are more interested in living life to its fullest and maybe contributing. I mean, for one, I said, that’s where I want to be, I want to work with people who have trouble still with 9/11. I wanted to be of service to the world that way. And then, to my community to. So, I’m hoping that, you know, this message will be brought to a lot of people and that more people will come out to help. So. Okay. That’s a wrap? [laughs] [END OF INTERVIEW] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕這裡是唐人街文件問﹕但您父親是在中國出生長大的--- 王﹕在中國﹐是的。他出生在---然後他們就來這裡了﹐我想他16歲跟他的父親一起來這裡的。我不太清楚我爺爺的事情﹐但是--- 問﹕您的父母親是在這裡認識的嗎﹖ 王﹕不是﹐實際上﹐我父親回到開平娶的我母親。這是他的第三次婚姻。是啊﹐的確很不幸。他在中國開平認識了第一個太太﹐但她死了﹐後來他移民到這裡﹐然後又在別處遇到了Dorothy Wong﹐後來她也死了﹐然後他又回了---。所以﹐我有一個繼兄弟姐妹是他第一個太太生的﹐還有兩個是他第二個太太生的﹐一個是哥哥另外一個是姐姐。然後他就娶了我母親﹐一共生了四個孩子﹐我有三個哥哥﹐我是最小的。 問﹕一共有多少個﹖ 王﹕四加三﹐一共是七個。 問﹕他最後一次結婚時有多大年紀﹖ 王﹕他有多少歲﹖我想他結第三次婚時是55歲。 問﹕真的﹖ 王﹕我不太確定﹐但我想應該差不多。 問﹕他在美國期間都做些什麼﹖ 王﹕洗衣服﹐我說的洗衣服不是去自助洗衣店﹐而是熨襯衫﹐送衣服﹐熨平﹐洗﹐再回來熨。我們在Upper East Side﹑布朗士區﹑布魯克林區都有開店。 問﹕您母親也有工作嗎﹖ 王﹕我母親也在洗衣店做工。她負責布魯克林的洗衣店﹐我父親負責Upper East Side的那一間。 問﹕您和您哥哥們有沒有在那裡做工﹖ 王﹕我沒有。他們都有﹐我算幸運﹐我當時年紀還小﹐所以不用干很多活兒。但我記得我哥哥們工作很努力﹐我卻在一邊玩兒﹐他們總是踩單車﹐把我放在車架上。他們給人家送衣服﹐而我坐在小筐裡。[笑]。他們經常開過中央公園﹐我是說﹐他們騎車穿過中央公園﹐那時我的確很幸運。那是跟我哥哥Paul。 問﹕您小時候是在哪裡長大的﹖ 王﹕我住在哪裡﹖我想我們住在洗衣店的後面。等我到了五﹑六歲的時候﹐我們搬到曼哈頓的唐人街﹐在亨利街。我在那裡上的P.S. 1和P.S. 2﹐然後在附近上的初中﹐是在第五十六初級中學﹐後來又上了附近的高中﹐Stewart Park中學。 問﹕那您一直都是在附近﹖ 王﹕我一直都在附近﹐但除了大學﹐我去康奈爾上的本科﹐學的是人類發展和家庭研究﹐然後又去賓州大學攻讀社會學碩士。 問﹕您剛纔講的“洗衣店的後面”指的是布朗士的那一間嗎﹖ 王﹕布朗士﹐包括其他那幾間﹐我差不多都去過。 問﹕您經常搬家嗎﹖ 王﹕是的﹐從我一歲到五歲的時候﹐我經常到處搬。就是那種生活---我記不得太多了﹐因為我那時還很小。 問﹕您出生的時候﹐您父親有多大年紀﹖ 王﹕他差不多58歲。 問﹕哇。 王﹕很有意思﹐是不是﹖實際上﹐在我12歲的時候﹐他就過世了。 問﹕噢﹐他當時70歲。 王﹕是的。 問﹕您母親呢﹖ 王﹕我母親大約三年前去世的﹐是在2000年。有件事我想待會兒談一下﹐它對我的生活影響很大。我不知道﹐要不我---我想我們可以--- 問﹕您想--- 王﹕---現在講嗎﹐或者--- 問﹕您能否談一下--- 王﹕---在唐人街長大--- 問﹕---長大﹐是的。 王﹕好的﹐我想講一下在唐人街長大的情況。 我想﹐在唐人街﹐對我一生影響最大的是打籃球。在我從十二﹑三歲到十七歲期間﹐籃球對我的生活影響很大。我因此交了一些同齡的朋友﹐總去些地方玩兒。最重要的是﹐它鍛煉了我的領導才能﹐使我更加融入社區。甚至在我長大的時候﹐我總是想﹐為什麼---是我母親引起的﹐在洗衣店之後﹐她又在衣廠工作﹐非常辛苦﹐我有時去那裡﹐看到到處是貧窮和掙扎。所以﹐在我很小的時候﹐我就開始寫有關種族歧視的文章﹐開始寫有關唐人街和唐人街的需要等文章﹐那時全美國都鬧得很凶﹐很多華人都擔心被攻擊﹐因為有很多很多中國人都受到攻擊甚至被打死﹐從1800年﹐從我們到這裡時開始﹐一直到現在。 這些我都聽到很多﹐使我感覺到有很多的種族歧視﹐實在是不公平。於是﹐我就寫文章﹐甚至在我們打籃球打比賽的時候﹐我參加了幾次比賽﹐我們將其命名為Rock Springs Memorial﹐為紀念那些在阿肯色州Rock Springs遭攻擊致死的中國人。 所以﹐有這麼幾件事情。打籃球還使我---它讓我---我講的領導才能是指我知道我要做些什麼﹐我從中學會了些技巧﹐增強了我的自信心﹐這也是我希望當今的兒童能夠學會的一些東西。這也是我為什麼對Asian-American Youth Center感興趣的原因﹐要在社區建立一個青年中心。是的﹐因為我們曾經經常在外面的公園裡玩兒﹐或者在P.S. 1﹑Columbus Park玩兒。現在再談回打籃球。很湊巧﹐我的教練是從台灣來的﹐他有一個夢想﹐即他要帶一支女子隊去台灣﹐和台灣的女子隊打比賽。我們去過香港和日本。 如果真能實現的話的確是好極了﹐特別是對於我們這些在唐人街長大的﹐因為我們所了解的事情只局限于唐人街。你們也許會說那個時候這裡仍然是唐人街﹐但在那個時候這裡的人還是很雜的。當時有黑人﹐南美洲人﹐還有猶太人。所以﹐我成長的社區的確是多姿多彩的﹐因為我們之間有很多不同﹐但都能夠彼此接受。 所以﹐實際上﹐這一切促成了我的多元化的意識﹐使我堅信我們能夠一起繁榮。當然﹐我不是在60年代長大的孩子﹐我那時還很小﹐但我受到馬丁路德金和約翰肯尼迪運動的影響很深﹐這的確是很好的事情。 問﹕因為這些是70年代初的事情﹖ 王﹕70年代初﹐是啊﹐在七幾年我打籃球﹐我想﹐73到76年﹐我在上中學。 問﹕那時有很多民主運動﹖ 王﹕沒錯﹐是的。在那時候﹐我想是我們組織了第一次運動。那是在唐人街舉行的第一次反對警察暴力的示威遊行﹐是在City Hall。你也許還能見到那時的照片﹐成長在那段時期的確很有意思﹐我想我都成了元老了。那時發生了很多事情﹐所以﹐成長在那個時期還是蠻不錯的。我想我們逐漸養成了一種反抗意識。是的。 問﹕那時的唐人街同現在很不一樣吧。 王﹕那時的唐人街還很小。很多都是廣東人﹐從臺山﹑開平或廣州來的﹐也有香港人。還有一些人﹐他們的家人還在中國和台灣。但第一代移民---我想你們都有這方面的資料--- 都是契約工﹐我不知道要不要繼續講下去﹖ [警笛嚮﹐交換了幾句有關于警笛的對話] 王﹕我應不應該講一下契約工﹖我想沒這個必要﹐因為其他人--- 問﹕可以順便講一下。再回到剛纔的話題﹐那時的唐人街很不一樣﹐也許因為當時的居民比較多﹐不像現在﹐很多人只是來這裡上班。 王﹕是的﹐的確在這裡住的居民比較多。我想在那個時候很多人仍然住在唐人街﹐但都想搬走。我生長在籃球世家。我的哥哥們都打籃球﹐所以我很幸運在這個環境長大﹐因為我的哥哥們都鼓勵我打籃球。在高中﹐我也有打籃球﹐並組建了球隊﹐因此有很多業余活動。而且﹐這些課外活動對我後來上大學也有好處。 問﹕這些也是社區組織的球隊嗎﹖這些不像YMCA﹐不是學校組織的。 王﹕不﹐這些是社區組織的。發起人有﹐實際上﹐你也許也知道﹐有個人叫Tai Ma﹐他現在是演員﹐在好萊塢。但Tai Ma的願望是組建一支籃球聯隊。這是由﹐你也許知道Basement Workshop的Fay Chang﹐如果你真知道Basement Workshop的Fay Chang的話﹐是她建立Basement Workshop的﹐包括Tai﹐但他也許只干了一兩個夏天﹐有關籃球聯賽的具體情況我也不太清楚。 在唐人街﹐直到76年左右才開始有了Y﹐這是些剛剛成立的基層的組織﹐目的是吸引孩子們參加比賽。現在﹐我也屬於一個基層組織﹐叫作Asian-American Youth Center﹐我們的目標是籌建一個青年中心。 這個青年中心要有一支自己的籃球隊和體育館。但我﹐當然﹐因為我對精神健康比較感興趣﹐我想成立一些講習班討論有關領導才能方面的話題﹐讓孩子們準備好---實際上﹐我希望我能做到。那也許會幫助我更好地了解政治﹐以及如何處理好一系列政治方面的問題。 而且要教授孩子們一些基礎訓練﹐集中精神﹐知道何時向前沖何時向後退﹐何時應該有闖勁何時應該有自信的技巧﹐以及這些技巧之間的差異﹐因為我們總是在主動和被動之間徘徊﹐尤其是在這裡長大的亞洲人﹐我們都是很被動的﹐但是我們在這裡的學校長大﹐所以我們懂得怎樣抓住主動權和表現自信心。我很想能夠給孩子們組織一些講習班。在我們工作的St. Vincent's﹐我們在學校進行精神健康等的教育﹐但是我還是想多舉行一些大規模的講習班專門提高某些方面的技巧。 問﹕所以﹐你對社區活動的興趣來源于您以前打籃球的經歷﹖ 王﹕我想是的。 問﹕您是什麼時候開始積極地做社區的義工服務工作的﹖是怎樣開始的﹖ 王﹕高中畢業後﹐我去了Cornell。那時在Cornell﹐我感受到很大的文化衝擊。因為我已經習慣了城市的環境和週圍的親人﹐但在那裡卻很不一樣。那時﹐上大學的亞洲裔美國人並不多﹐那是在1976年。 所以﹐在那個時候我就已經決定畢業之後要回到社區工作﹐而且在那之後我從來也沒有離開社區。我在社區的Chinese-American Planning Council實習。有一個學期我帶了一些年輕人﹐組成了一個叫作Project Reach的組織﹐這個組織現在還存在﹐現在是由Don Kao負責。但在那時﹐是由Peter Fong負責﹐後來是David Chen。 David Chen現在是CPC的行政主管。但在那時﹐我們只是做一些年輕人的工作。所以﹐這對我是一個很好的經歷。那是一個預防的項目﹐防止孩子們使用毒品以及參加黑社會。因為那時有的孩子綽學﹐他們學校裡沒有雙語的課程﹐也沒有雙語的輔導員﹐但那時有很多新移民。你知道﹐Chinese Exclusion Act是在1965年左右被取消的﹐在此之後﹐大批中國人才開始移民到這裡。 問﹕稍微打斷一下﹐您剛纔提到在Cornell有很大的文化衝擊是什麼意思﹖ 王﹕在Cornell﹖[笑] 那裡沒有亞洲人﹐那兒基本上是個白人的天下﹐那段時期的確很困難﹐因為別人用不同的眼光看待我。我感覺我跟週圍的其他人非常非常不一樣。跟我在這裡很不同﹐我是在唐人街長大的﹐從小到大週圍有黑人﹑拉丁美洲人和猶太人﹐但那裡沒有這麼多其他種族的人﹐那裡的學生大多來自全國各地﹐但都是白人。所以﹐那裡很不一樣﹐同時我也感覺到我跟其他人不一樣﹐有的時候感覺被人家瞧不起。大多情況下還好﹐但我能感受到種族歧視的存在。是的﹐大致如此。實際上﹐這也是件好事﹐因為Cornell有開種族歧視方面的課程﹐而且我也有上。在我畢業之後﹐我繼續在唐人街的Adolescent Vocational Exploration Program工作﹐我們負責安排孩子們的暑期活動﹐讓他們有機會和從事不同職業的人接觸﹐比如計算機﹑攝影等。他們的確從中受益匪淺。 後來﹐我又去了University of Pennsylvania﹐因為他們那裡長年致力于消除種族歧視的研究項目﹐而且我們必須上兩年有關美國種族歧視的課程﹐整整兩年。那是個很有意思的經歷。從University of Pennsylvania畢業之後﹐我又回到了唐人街﹐在唐人街的健康診所工作﹐發展那裡對美籍華人的服務。然後我又到Chinese-American Planning Council工作﹐開展一個有關亞洲人因家庭暴力而遭受傷害的項目。在那時﹐我們稱其為“受虐待的亞洲婦女。”這些受虐待的婦女的確很可憐﹐因為她們被打後跑到這裡﹐但不知道她們的權利是什麼。但實際上這些婦女還算幸運﹐因為她們至少是在這裡。要是在中國﹐她們可能會繼續被虐待﹐ 但因為她們在這裡﹐她們可以改善這種情況。所以﹐我有幸為她們提供這些服務使她們能夠生活在沒有暴力的環境裡﹐而且跟她們講她們沒有必要接受或容忍這種情況。中國文化在多少年來﹐以至多少世紀來﹐都在崇尚一個“忍”字﹐中國婦女在被打後也是默默忍受﹐包括受她們丈夫的精神虐待。 問﹕現在那個項目是不是還在進行﹖ 王﹕現在那個項目已經沒有了﹐但還有一個紐約亞洲婦女中心﹐那時我也有自願幫助他們接熱線電話。那裡有一個24小時的熱線電話為婦女﹑亞洲婦女提供幫助﹐而且有好幾種中文方言的服務。而且﹐近期---我不知道是否應該提這個﹐但近期有一個婦女到這裡﹐她家裡的暴力還是時有發生。她沒有地方去﹐她還是個新移民﹐被打﹐沒有地方去﹐所以﹐我很高興她能找到一個避難所。 問﹕您在多個社區服務中心工作過﹐因此也有很多方面的經驗。您是否覺得有的服務﹐比如說教育或是青少年的服務﹐會比其他方面的服務搞得成功些﹖或者說﹐做哪些事情比較容易擴大影響力會使社區有所響應﹖還是說社區一直是在期待﹐一直很響應﹐您懂我的意思嗎﹖ 王﹕社區一直不是非常響應。所以說﹐媒體的宣傳是非常重要的。甚至在我上Cornell的時候﹐我都一直在想﹐如果能辦一個中文電臺的廣播節目﹐我們能夠做更多的公共教育。後來﹐果然不出所料﹐這些都有搞﹐而且還都搞得很不錯。現在我們有一個公共廣播電臺﹐1480。如果你有參加電臺廣播﹐你會成為家喻戶曉的人物﹐別人也會相信你﹐所以﹐能夠通過這種方式擴大知名度是很好的事情。現在有1480﹐但以前是中廣電臺(Sino-cast radio station)和Cheng Hua電臺﹐而且你必須要從每個電臺那裡購買接收器才能夠收聽到廣播和新聞。現在﹐我們很幸運能通過1480廣播﹐我們也一直儘量充份利用。 儘管通過電臺和報紙傳播有很大的幫助﹐但在我看來﹐人們也要增進和媒體的互動。 另外一個對我有影響的是---我從事社區工作已經很久了。我曾擔任過州長(﹖)醫院健康護理的行政職務﹐以及質量監督﹑質量提高項目的負責人。我比較適合做行政工作。你得以了解到很多事情的另一面﹐而且我感覺我能夠給醫院對社區提供護理服務的質量帶來很大的改觀。 但對我生活影響最深的是我母親的病。當時我必須在事業和家庭兩者之間做出選擇。我覺得事業肯定是次要的。家庭是非常重要的﹐儘管我一生都很喜歡我的職業﹐我還是想照顧我母親﹐這給我的生活帶來很大的變化﹐因為這使我非常珍惜同母親在一起的時間﹐因為我知道她可能---當她腎功能衰退後﹐她頂多能再維持兩﹑三年﹐我的確想和她多相處一些時間。這使我更加珍惜生命﹐珍惜人﹐在此之後我決定不再直接負責行政事務。我決定去St. Vincent's---我想為社區做些事情﹐不僅是為美國的亞裔社區﹐而是全世界。因此﹐St. Vincent's設立了一個叫World Trade Center Healing Services的項目﹐以幫助9/11的受害者﹐不論他們是因為9/11失去了親人或未婚妻﹐或是工作﹐還是因為經歷了9/11而受到精神創傷或經常做惡夢。我只是想以這種方式幫助他們。能夠看到通過我的幫助別人能夠重新恢復以前的生活我就很知足了。 問﹕這個項目是不是很成功﹖ 王﹕我認為是很成功的。但亞裔社區很少有人跟我們聯系。你可能聽到Asian-American Federation有做過一項調查研究﹐他們有通過家庭調查做了一些統計﹐有一點我能肯定的是﹐有一個Asian Life Net﹐ 是專門為亞裔美國人開通的服務熱線。在9/11之後兩年內﹐熱線電話的使用量才增長了百分之四﹐實在是不多。我的意思是說﹐儘管我們做了多少媒體方面的努力﹐並沒有很多人跟我們聯系講述他們9/11的經歷。 我的確在幫助那些受創傷的受害者的方面很有技巧和經驗。我自認為我的方法對我治療過的病人都很有效﹐我指的是我在St. Vincent's的病人。 問﹕您的那些病人是怎麼到您那裡去的﹖是別人介紹的﹐還是他們自己找去的﹖ 王﹕都有。有的是別人介紹來的﹐有的是看了報紙﹐我們暫時還沒有在電臺上做宣傳﹐但我們以後會的。我只在這裡做了六個月。 問﹕但您是否覺得因為文化差異﹐很多人不願意尋求幫助﹐特別是心裡治療﹖ 王﹕是的﹐沒錯。他們不想讓別人認為他們在亞裔社區尋求心理治療是因為他們精神有問題﹐一般來講人們都會認為看精神醫生是件很羞愧和丟臉的事情。所以﹐9/11之後我們在St. Vincent's舉辦了耳部針灸﹐希望能夠以此在華裔美國人社區擴大影響﹐希望他們能夠做了耳部針灸之後再到這裡來接受其他方面的治療。我們希望以此擴大影響。今天我剛剛﹐今天是12/26/03﹐今天我剛剛接收了一個新病人﹐我不知道我的治療是否有效﹐但我使用了一點催眠療法﹐我想讓病人有安全感。治療的首要一件事就是要讓他們有安全感。如果病人感到很不安﹐治療就很難再進行下去。 問﹕您是怎樣應付這種固有的羞恥感的﹖這是不是在您治療中國病人的時候都要涉及到的問題﹖ 王﹕多少會有一點。我想他們到我這裡來的時候都多少已經克服了一些羞恥感。我們需要做的是要進一步引導他們﹐ 讓他們心裡感覺更扎實些﹐更加唯我一些﹐讓他們知道這是他們的權利。我認為很多中國人不認為自己有權獲得很多東西---比如服務﹑救濟---所以﹐我認為華裔美國人還是有---他們還是在學習。他們還是在適應美國﹐在了解他們的權益是什麼。 問﹕所以﹐您認為這種遲疑是文化因素造成的﹖ 王﹕你能不能---﹖ 問﹕從數量上﹐或從付出的努力上﹐或從利用服務的人本身﹐盡管媒體﹐盡管--- 王﹕比如說﹐有人看到文章報道後﹐又把它放在抽屜裡﹐一個月以後才到這裡治療。我想人們還是有這種意識﹐只是需要一段時間才能打定主意﹐說“好﹐我現在就要去了﹐我現在就要打電話。”盡管我們跟他們講所有的治療都是保密的﹐他們還是怕別人知道﹐你跟他們講你不會告訴別人他們就是不相信。正是因為這個原因﹐我猜想通過建立熱線電話和電臺做廣播的方式效果要好一些。實際上﹐New York Asian-American Mental Health Coalition在搞一個叫作“Stigma”的研討會﹐我們想研究一下到底用什麼方式可以讓別人覺得接受治療不是一件羞恥的事情。 也許﹐在今後十年內我們能夠克服這個問題﹐這是因為很長一段時間人們一直把接受精神治療和羞恥結合起來。我不知道我們能否解決這個問題﹐但希望如此。 問﹕您能否大致談一下您都有些什麼樣的病人以及他們有些什麼樣的問題﹐用不找太詳細。他們是不是些專業人士﹐還是--- 王﹕可以。在中國人社區有很多專業人士目睹了姊妹塔傾倒的全過程﹐這對他們的影響很大。我們有些這樣的病人﹐但還不算多。中國人社區就在這兒。有些人看到塔倒了後就忍不住失聲痛苦﹐他們有的跑到洗手間裡哭﹐還有些人因此失去了工作﹐後來的SARS也影響了華裔社區﹐真是一件接一件﹐後來又是大停電﹐給社區造成很大的創傷。 有的家庭裡也許兩個---應該怎麼講---父母都沒有了工作﹐這會給他們的心理健康帶來很大的打擊。 問﹕您能不能把他們介紹到其他地方去呢﹖ 王﹕類似的服務結構只有幾家﹐比如唐人街的人力部門﹐在那裡你可以學到計算機技能﹐但不是很多---我的意思是﹐華裔社區最需要的是工作﹐但我們並沒有很多的工作。但至少我們可以幫助他們重新振作起來﹐醫治好他們的創傷。我們觀察到很多華裔美國人的心裡還是有9/11的陰影﹐總是非常地焦慮和抑郁﹐所以﹐他們總是在追想過去﹐而焦慮和抑郁都不會有任何幫助。 問﹕這些醫療服務是怎樣運作的﹖是不是免費的﹖ 王﹕醫療服務是免費的。所有的治療都是免費的。而且﹐效果還是蠻不錯的。可以說﹐接受三次治療後﹐有些病人就康復了。一次治療之後﹐[笑] 一位職業婦女---我想我的任務主要是幫助人們找到他們從前的感覺﹐內部的資源﹐他們的技能﹐他們自己的力量﹐以及安全感。這會花很長的時間。幫助人們重新獲得獨立感﹑他們對自己的感受和認同需要很長的時間。是這個樣子的。 問﹕您預計這個項目還會---﹖ 王﹕這個項目還會搞很長時間。St. Vincent's很想建立一個創傷中心﹐所以﹐希望我們能夠幫助更多的人﹐特別是﹐我們剛剛開展了對華裔社區的宣傳活動﹐所以﹐我還是希望這樣做的效果會好一些。 問﹕您認為您的這個經歷給您與您事業和唐人街的關系帶來哪些變化﹖比如在您想從事的事業方面﹖您想參與社區裡的哪些事務﹖ 王﹕我現在也許負責的事情太多﹐但這是你無法控制的﹐因為你總是想多做一些。這個經歷使我更加珍惜生活﹐珍惜我的朋友。就好象是說﹐Joe剛剛還在這裡﹐我剛講過---他是這裡的行政負責人---我的確很感激他﹐因為我們總是面臨各種各樣的威脅﹐但我們從來不知道是什麼時候﹐這使我更加珍惜生活﹐我會找機會跟他講﹐“真是多虧了你---”Joe﹐我真是感激他所做的一切。他甚至為我們做些小餅干。所以﹐我們會相互支持。 但我現在在Asian-American Youth Center工作﹐那是個非盈利機構。所有的董事會成員都是志願者﹐都是在Columbus Park認識的朋友。我先前提過﹐我小時候在PS 1和Columbus Park打籃球。現在﹐我們要在Columbus Park重建一個亭子﹐已經籌足了資金﹐我們的目的是想讓公園管理部門接受社區的建議﹐包括重新修建公園﹐如何更好地利用公園﹐以及重建一個亭子。 這個亭子可以作為社區的中心。現在它還不是﹐它在那裡閑置了有大約十五年了﹐專供鴿子歇息用。現在我們有了資金﹐我們想尋求政府官員的幫助﹐讓官員管理部門認識到社區的確需要自己的場地﹐這一點是非常重要的。這裡實在是沒有一個社區中心。你信不信﹖我的意思是說﹐這裡是唐人街﹐這裡有學校﹐公立學校﹐但我們還想有一個社區中心﹐以便人們可以到這裡來咨詢一些問題﹐比如﹐這裡移民的生活怎麼樣﹐我們應該掌握什麼技巧。類似的服務項目有很多﹐ 但就是沒有一個固定的社區中心給人們提供便利---盡管有教堂---但那是不一樣的。是不一樣的。 問﹕您是不是覺得很難也讓市裡認識到這種需要﹖ 王﹕是的﹐我是有這種感覺。但是﹐我﹐我們還不知道該怎樣做﹐因為我們也是剛剛起步﹐我們也在不斷摸索這裡的政治體制﹐以及怎樣才能推動一些變化。 問﹕這聽起來好象是七十年代建設社區的過程。 王﹕是的。 問﹕這也是您想從事的事情。 王﹕是的。 問﹕我還想問一下---我現在又一時不知道該怎麼講---能不能先稍微停一下﹖ 王﹕我不知道你是否知道﹐有時候鏡子是--- [同時講話] 問﹕不好意思。我想回到剛才的話題﹐再談一下St. Vincent's的創傷項目﹐它是怎樣組織起來的﹖是不是只是針對唐人街的社區﹐還是說同時也接收其他病人﹖ 王﹕是的。我們接收各種各樣的病人。 問﹕那個項目是不是面向各個不同的移民社區的﹖您是否認為這種權利享用方面的問題只是中國文化特有的問題﹐還是一般移民都會存在的問題﹖ 王﹕的確是。你講的對。是普遍的移民問題。我們的資金有限﹐ 但我們想幫助成人﹑兒童和青少年。所以﹐St. Vincent's得以走進校園﹐我們在Schulz Park High School有一個中國輔導員﹐在IS 131也有一個中國輔導員﹐在St. Joseph's也有一個﹐她現在在休產假。是的﹐我們盡力想走入中國社區。 對了﹐還有一些講英文的輔導員。我們有大約25名員工在學校任職﹐只有我們四個治療成人。所以﹐只有我和另外一個人負責華裔社區﹐但我不單單只治療華裔美國人﹐我也有治療其他病人。 問﹕那您有講廣東話和英文的病人--- 王﹕---還有講英文的病人﹐是的。 問﹕您認為中國社區的病人和其他社區的病人在本質上大致有什麼不同嗎﹖ 王﹕從本質上來講﹐---我認為其他非華人社區的模仿能力比較強﹐因為他們到這裡來是作為---我認為華裔社區的專業人士有更多的模仿能力。 問﹕您提到的專業人士是什麼意思﹖ 王﹕我提到的美國亞裔專業人士是指那些在銀行工作的職員﹐或股票經紀人﹐那些在華爾街上班的人。 問﹕拿他們和--- 王﹕和中國人--- 問﹕和其他的中國人比較--- 王﹕其他的中國移民﹐那些才到這裡兩三年的﹐甚至到這裡十年但現在沒有工作的。我認為這還是跟英語水平有關系﹐如果你能講英文﹐你的出路就很多。 問﹕您能講一下社區對SARS的反應嗎﹖ 王﹕社區是如何反應的。 問﹕至少是通過您的病人了解到的﹐通過您自己的觀察。 王﹕社區民眾知道我們沒有被SARS傳染到﹐但是實在是有太多的謠言﹐導致人們相信社區裡有SARS傳染。我們四月份在唐人街組織了一次遊行想讓別人知道﹐“唐人街是安全的。”甚至市長Bloomberg和Hilary Clinton都有來中國社區向別人展示在唐人街就餐是安全的。但我們的確受此影響很大﹐社區也因此遭受了經濟損失。是很艱難。我想人們才剛剛知道這裡沒有SARS。 問﹕我在想在您從業過程中是否有各種各樣的種族歧視問題﹐比如說﹐別人怎樣看待唐人街﹐以及日常生活中是怎樣對待的﹖ 王﹕能再講得具體一些嗎﹖ 問﹕比如有關SARS的謠言﹐這怎樣影響到人們的個人生活﹐或者也許是日常生活中的種族歧視﹐比如在工作環境裡或城市裡。您是否有類似的經歷﹖您是否認為這是人們日常生活中都需要面對的問題﹖ 王﹕我還是不明白你的問題﹐我不能肯定--- 問﹕我只是有些好奇罷了--- 王﹕你是指我的工作上﹐還是在社區裡--- 問﹕您的工作過程中﹐或是您在其他醫療中心的經歷。 王﹕好的。種族歧視﹐在我讀University of Pennsylvania的時候﹐我們把它解釋成種族﹐加上資源的缺乏﹐再加上為爭取資源的努力。我覺得就SARS和對唐人街的影響來講﹐這裡面是有種族歧視的因素。誠然﹐這是對這些外裔群體缺乏了解。再有﹐我們來這裡只不過才有三十年﹐從65年算起。不是三十年嗎﹖僅僅是三十幾年而已。我的意思是說﹐儘管我們在這裡有很長時間﹐但排華法案在一百年之後才被廢除。所以﹐我們還是在努力發展﹐很多人體會不到這一點。 我們是少數裔族的典範。我們在學校﹑在大學的表現都非常好﹐但那些剛剛來到華裔社區的新移民就不同了﹐那麼人們是怎樣看待他們的﹖這裡總是有一個階級的差別﹐有階級和種族的差異。我的意思是說﹐他們看到的是人們有各種各樣表達自己的方式﹐但他們可能會認為﹐我還是要用“野蠻”這個詞﹐因為他們還是視中國人與眾不同﹐也許是因為我們的一些作法比較低級野蠻﹐不利於健康。也就是說﹐你為什麼要到一個仍有很高的肺結核或其他疾病發病率的社區去﹖種族歧視就是如此產生的。 另外一個有關華裔社區受歧視的例子是政治方面的﹐比如警察局。我不知道你是否聽說過Park Row事件。在Chatham Green和Chatham Towers的居民﹐因為他們離第一警察區比較近﹐ 他們的生活因9/11變化很大﹐受到很大的衝擊﹐因為他們就住在這裡﹐街道都被封了﹐他們祇得在警察的監管下生活﹐所以﹐在那裡長大的孩子總是有種不安全感。你能想象在警察監管下的生活是什麼樣子的嗎﹖他們經常看到有警車出沒。其他的影響還包括警車佔用了停車場地。那些從紐澤西或長島來唐人街的人大多是來這裡購物的﹐但卻找不到地方停車。整條街都被封了﹐卻有很多政府用車停在那裡。所以說﹐華裔社區受到很大的影響。 問﹕因此﹐這些變化對這裡華人的心裡上都有很大衝擊﹖ 王﹕心裡上和精神上。是的﹐所有在這個階段長大的孩子都覺得有種不安全感。我到外面走一走都需要有警察保護我。 問﹕那您能不能憑您的工作經歷或個人體驗大致談一下您是怎樣看待唐人街的變化的﹖畢竟您在這裡生活了很長時間﹐而且在這期間您一直是非常活躍。而且﹐這裡又來了很多新移民﹐政府部門又因此有了很多新的問題。 王﹕Ingrid﹐我現在實在不知道該怎樣回答你的問題。[笑] 問﹕您覺得唐人街的將來會是怎樣﹖ 王﹕我是有信心的﹐但是現在還是不是非常地確定。[笑] 這個社區的確很大﹐在現階段﹐能夠看到我們佔了很大地盤我已經是很開心了。根據2000年的人口普查﹐紐約市曼哈頓的唐人街是全國最大的華裔社區。 我們的人口增加了﹐希望我們選舉的影響力也因此增長。我想動員大家積極進行選民登記﹐ 因為這樣華裔勢力才會所影響力﹐才會得到政治家的重視。我們需要壯大我們的政治力量。即使是在華裔美國人之間﹐因為我們中文裡有這麼多的方言﹐我們之間也有很大的差異。中國人之間不知道該怎樣相互合作。因為我以前工作和舉辦研討會的時候曾致力與此﹐所以我希望我能對此有所貢獻。但具體怎樣實現我也不清楚。我衷心希望華裔領導能夠通力合作發展我們的社區﹐為社區多做貢獻﹐而不單單是為填滿自己的腰包。還是那句話﹐資源缺乏。也許那些領導們在獲得資助之後再決定如何把錢分下去。 問﹕您覺得有這個可能嗎﹖依我看來您的經歷比較特殊﹐因為您一直待在社區﹐在這裡工作生活。但大多數人在這裡待了一段時間之後就搬走了﹐沒有把資金重新投入在社區。 王﹕你能否--- 問﹕您是否覺得現在越來越多的人對唐人街的這些問題感興趣﹖ 王﹕是的。實際上﹐我覺得9/11使人們變得越來越重視享受生活﹐也許還有種想做貢獻的想法。比如﹐我說過我想做什麼什麼事情﹐我想幫助那些仍然受9/11困擾的人。我想以這種方式幫助全世界的人﹐包括我的社區。我希望很多人都能夠聽到我的呼籲﹐這樣更多的人能夠站出來伸出援助之手。這個結尾怎麼樣﹖[笑] [採訪完畢] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Frances Wong 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Jack Chin Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Teri Chan Chinatown Interview: Date 0000-00-00 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation shop owner Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: We can begin. Today is January 7, 2004. My name is Teri Chan. I’m at the New Crown Inc., which is located at 57-59 Mott Street in Chinatown, New York. Please tell us your Chinese name and English name. CHIN: My Chinese name is Chin Won Kun. My English name is Jack Chin. Q: When were you born, and where? CHIN: I was born in China, in 1939. Q: Where in China? CHIN: In Guangdong, Taishan. Q: Is Taishan a city or a village? CHIN: It’s a city. The village is Tai Chun. Q: Were you born in the city or in the countryside? CHIN: In the countryside. Q: When did you come to America? CHIN: 1954. Q: At that time, about how old were you? CHIN: 12 years old. Q: How did you come to America? CHIN: Well, it’s like this, my father applied for us to go to America and then go to Canada. Q: You came to America first. Where in America? CHIN: The first place I came to in America was San Francisco. Q: How long did you live in San Francisco? CHIN: I just went through immigration there. Q: And then where did you go in Canada? CHIN: Then we went to Cornwall, Ontario. And then we went to Montreal, and at that time I was in high school. Q: Did you come over as a family, or by yourself? CHIN: When I came, it was with my mother and my cousin. Q: With your mother and your cousin? CHIN: No, my mother came over later. Q: It was you and your— CHIN: Cousin. Q: Cousin. Why was it just you and your cousin? How was your cousin able to come with you? CHIN: At that time, my mother was still in the countryside, in Guangzhou. I could already go through Hong Kong. I had already come over, but my mother was in Mainland China and at that time, she still hadn’t been approved (for immigration). Q: Why did you first go to Hong Kong even though your mother hadn’t gone there yet? CHIN: At that time, we had to have our application approved in order to go to Hong Kong. I had already gone to Hong Kong, but she wasn’t approved to emigrate. Q: At that time was it legal to apply to emigrate? CHIN: Yes. But it was harder to get approved in China at that time. Q: Back in the countryside, did you have brothers or sisters? CHIN: My older brother went to Canada a little earlier. He went to Canada one or two years before me. Q: And you didn’t apply together? CHIN: Yes, we applied together. But the problem was that at that time my brother was in Hong Kong and I was in Guangzhou. Q: What did your father do in Canada? CHIN: My father ran a restaurant and a grocery store in Canada. Q: When did he go to Canada? CHIN: He’d been there a long time. He must have gone there before I had been born. At that time he had gone over there as a student to study abroad. Q: At that time, did he feel that studying abroad was a very common thing, or was it pretty difficult? CHIN: I don’t know about that. I know that he arranged to go to Canada as an overseas student, that’s what I heard them say then. Q: Then how about you, what were your feelings when you first arrived in Canada? How did you feel? CHIN: At that time I was still young. I played, I had a good time. Q: Had you gone to Canada to learn English? CHIN: Yes, I learned English in Canada. Q: How long did you stayed in Canada? CHIN: About ten years. Q: And then where did you move to next? CHIN: To New York. Q: Why did you move to New York? CHIN: Because my wife’s brothers and sisters were all there. At that time, it was easier to find jobs here. So we came here. Q: Where did you meet your wife? CHIN: In Hong Kong. Q: So after you came to Canada, you went back to Hong Kong and met your wife? CHIN: Yes. We were distance relatives, and somebody introduced us. Q: Can I ask, at that time, how old were you? CHIN: I was about 21 or 22 back then. Q: At that time, was it considered to be a young age to get married? CHIN: Kind of. Q: So what were your feelings back then? CHIN: At that time, our generation obeyed our parents’ wishes. We listened to our parents to start a family. So it was relatively early. Q: It was your father and mother that told you to go back to Hong Kong and meet this girl. CHIN: Yes. Q: So what differences do you feel existed between your life in Canada and your life in New York? CHIN: I believe that funding for social programs is better in Canada than here. But if we’re talking about working or doing business, then it’s better here, there are more opportunities. Q: Why are there more opportunities here? CHIN: The population here, there’s more people here. A wealthier city is going to be busier than other places. Q: When you came to New York, where did you live? Was it in Chinatown? CHIN: When I first came, I lived in Brooklyn. At 18th Avenue and 52nd Street. Q: At that time, when you lived there, were there any Chinese people? CHIN: Yes, there were a few Chinese people. Q: Why did you live there? CHIN: Because at that time, when we came – my wife’s sister’s classmate had bought a place there, so we went there to live. Q: What was your first job? CHIN: It was right here as a waiter. Q: At which place? At which restaurant? CHIN: At the Four Seasons, Blues Hall, at the intersection of 57th Street and Park Avenue. Q: Why did you go there to work? Was your English already very good back then? CHIN: What should I say - it wasn’t good, but I could make do. Q: At that time, was it an American restaurant? CHIN: It was a Chinese restaurant, a restaurant that was owned by a Chinese and an American. Q: What year was that? CHIN: That was around 1970. Q: As far as working around the Midtown area goes, how did you feel about the opportunities there? CHIN: At that time, I worked five days a week. On my day off, I went back to Chinatown, to the Louis Zhong’s Bar, and would be there for the day. It was a part time job. Q: What was the name? CHIN: Louis Zhong. Q: Louis Zhong? CHIN: Yeah. Q: Where was it? CHIN: Now it’s at a corner by China Bank [China Trust Bank]. Q: On what street? CHIN: At the corner of Mulberry and Canal. The second place down. Q: At that time, how was your work situation in Midtown? CHIN: It was pretty strict. We started work pretty much around 5pm. For example, at five o’clock the restaurant started up and we had to be on standby, we had to be at our positions in the waiters’ stations. Q: You only worked afternoons? CHIN: No. We had morning shift and we also worked dinners. Q: How did they treat you? CHIN: Average. Just average. A little better than they do in Chinatown. Q: In what way was it a little better? CHIN: At that time, our clients were a little higher class. We were paid by the hour.. They counted each hour of work. So it was a few dollars per hour. They counted you by the hours you worked. Not like Chinatown here where they do it different, they pay monthly. We did it by the hour. Q: Did you get to keep your tips? CHIN: Yes, we got to keep the tips. Q: At that time, how were your tips distributed? CHIN: Whatever the customers gave us belonged to us. Whatever they gave to the captain belonged to the captain. Whatever they gave to the coat check people belonged to them. It was separate for everyone. Q: Is it still the same now? CHIN: I don’t think that restaurant is still in business. Q: How long did you work there? CHIN: I worked there for about nine years. Q: Did you ever have any special experiences, strange, unusual or happy incidents, having worked there that long? CHIN: You know, at that time, there were some – we were managed by those mangers. As waiters, sometimes when you were lucky, you had some customers who were really good people. And sometimes they weren’t so good. As far as we were concerned, it averaged out. At that time, we made 700, 800 dollars a month. Q: Was that considered a high salary back then? CHIN: That’s how I got by. Q: How was it different from your work at the bar? CHIN: As far as the bar goes, whenever I was off, I just went to the bar in Chinatown and worked as a waiter. Sometimes when the owner took a break or went on vacation, he would have me help him look the place over, and sometimes— Q: The bar also served food? CHIN: It was a restaurant. It started as a restaurant. But most of the people who went there drink alcohol. Q: What kind of people went there to drink? CHIN: Chinese people and Italians. Q: At that time, what was Canal Street like? CHIN: At that time, Canal Street wasn’t as busy as now. Q: What kind of people were they, and what kind of businesses did they have, back then? CHIN: At that time, half of them were Italians, and then there were Chinese. Some [inaudible] that’s all I know. Q: What were most Chinese people doing for a living back then? CHIN: Back then, Chinese people worked in restaurants, or dry clean, and lots of garment factories. Before, Chinatown had seven—according to what some people said, back then, Chinatown had more than seven hundred garment shops. Now, I think there are a hundred, or maybe seventy or eighty. That’s what I heard people say, I don’t personally know. I don’t work in that industry. Q: How did you change careers and work in this company? CHIN: At that time, we had a friend, back when we started at downstairs of the C.H. Oak Tin Association, our friend had been working in a restaurant. And then he started working at a bank. And I heard people saying that they were going to do something – that they were going to start up at Bayard Street, in 1979. So I didn’t do the restaurant anymore. I started working at Bayard Street. Q: That time, it was the same store, but it was on Bayard Street? CHIN: Around nineteen eighty—or it must be in 1990, we moved over here. Q: At that time what did you sell? CHIN: At first we just sold those ceramics. We sold those magazines and newspapers. Q: But the main thing was selling ceramics – CHIN: No, at that time, we sold a lot of newspapers there. At that time, there weren’t so many newspaper stands along that street. Back then, on Grand Street (?), we sold a lot of newspapers. In one day, we could at least sell eight or nine hundred copies. How much money was each copy worth? It was a newspaper market. Q: At that time, how many different newspapers did you sell? Do you remember? CHIN: At that time, there was Sing Tao, United, North America and News Daily, these ones… Q: So in all, there were four newspapers— CHIN: And China Press [Qiao Bao]. Back then, there was also China Press. Q: What was the address on Bayard Street? CHIN: Number 62-64. Q: Was it the same name? CHIN: Before it was Crown, Inc. After the move, it became New Crown, Inc. Q: At that time, it wasn’t your own – your friend invited you— CHIN: It’s mine, it’s my own. It’s just that they went to the restaurant business and then banking. I took it over. Q: You bought it ? CHIN: Yeah, we took it over. Q: What made you decide to take it over? You had never done this sort of business before? CHIN: It’s like this. At that time, I had worked as a waiter for roughly nine years. To do something like this, to come out and make this sort of change – back then, a lot of people, they all came to me and talked with me and helped me out. It was enough to support the family. So what happened was, a lot of people came up to me and told me to and tried it, it would be alright. Q: Was it difficult in the beginning? Did you make money? CHIN: It was very difficult at first because I hadn’t done this sort of business before. So that was why my business wasn’t so ideal then. Slowly, over time, I built it up. Q: Did it take a long time? CHIN: After seven or eight months, I got used to it. I had a hard time for about seven or eight months. Back then, my uncle and friends, they’d often come over to support me and help me. Q: How did they support you? Did they buy your things? How did they help you? CHIN: Some people said to me that if I needed some money, they could invest some money with me. I took their advice, but I didn’t take the money. Sometimes, there were some— Q: I know that the main customers for the newspapers are Chinese. But who are the main customers for the ceramics? CHIN: Back then, it was mostly Chinese people. Gradually, Westerners began seeking us out too. Q: Back then, did many visitors come to Chinatown? Were there many Western tourists? CHIN: At that time, when I was on Bayard Street, it flourished at night. So we stayed open until midnight. Back then, Bayard Street was a lot more lively than Mott Street. For a while, back when we were running the business, along pretty much the whole street, there were lots of restaurants open through the night. Lots of restaurants stayed open until five o’clock. Q: When did all that start to change – when did Bayard Street stop being so busy? CHIN: Not long after we moved over here, Bayard Street wasn’t as busy at night time. Q: Why did you move to this location? CHIN: Because back then there were two [people], one relative, one friend, they always helped me, they helped me to succeed. They helped me voluntarily at the company. So I asked them, if you’re interested, I’ll move to this place and we’ll run it together. I put out the basic goods. They agreed to it. That’s how we got a place here and started running it. Q: How did you find this space for your business? CHIN: A friend introduced me to it. Q: I’d like to ask, back then how much was the rent for this location? CHIN: The rent for this space was over three thousand dollars back then. Q: Did you have a lease, or did you just have a verbal agreement about the rent? CHIN: We began at number 59. Over here, the landlord is friendlier. We get along pretty good – our landlord is pretty good now. Q: These two shops are together, right? CHIN: Yes. We were at number 59 before. This one is number 57. Q: After you moved over here, what was the main thing you sold? Did you sell the same things, or you were selling different things? CHIN: It was pretty much the same things. Q: But I see a lot of furniture, when did you start selling other things? CHIN: I moved over here in ninety-something, ’92, ’93, and I started selling furniture. So I must have started doing that back in ’92. Q: Have you seen any changes in Chinatown since you moved here? During these dozen or so years, how has it changed? CHIN: After moving over here, I think it’s thriving a little more than it used to. At that time, [my business] was easier to run. Q: How was it easier? CHIN: Huh? Q: How come it was easier back in the past? CHIN: Competition. Back then, there wasn’t so much competition. I guess that’s it, I don’t know. It was just easier back then. Q: How about the last few years? How has business been? CHIN: These last few years, well, it’s pretty average. Q: Could you please tell us about how 9/11 has impacted your business? Has it had any influence, and if so, what kind? CHIN: Ever since 9/11, it’s influenced [inaudible] things— Q: I can’t understand you. CHIN: The impact has been really extreme – we’ve fallen off a bit. Q: And what’s the reason for that? CHIN: Huh? Q: Why is it that your business has suffered so much? CHIN: There are fewer tourists. Q: Let me ask you from the beginning. Where were you when 9/11 occurred? CHIN: At home. Q: And where was that? CHIN: I was at my Chinatown apartment. Q: Upstairs? CHIN: Upstairs. Q: How long have you lived in Chinatown? CHIN: I’ve lived in Chinatown for 15 years. Q: How did you know what had happened? CHIN: My son called and told me, something big had happened in New York, at the World Trade Center. He told me to turn on the TV immediately. At that time, the first airplane had turned right into it, and we thought it was an accident. But I turned on the TV, and when I turned it on, I saw the second airplane flew into it. They had done it intentionally. And at that time I saw all that. Q: Did you come out and watch? CHIN: At that time, I came out right here. But at that time, we didn’t open the doors. But everyone was walking right here. They were from Wall Street, walking through here. Lots of them. Those people, their hair, their clothes, there was so much dust. Seeing it at that time was even more terrifying. Q: Did you think that you should also go away? CHIN: At that time, how should I put it, my son and daughter were here. With that in mind - where could we go? I mean, we would just see what would happen. Q: Where were your son and daughter? CHIN: My daughter was in New Jersey. My son was in Los Angels, in Hollywood. Q: And your wife, where was she that day? CHIN: We were both at the Chinatown apartment. Q: Can you talk about how 9/11 impacted your business? CHIN: It had a huge influence. Q: Why? CHIN: Because there were fewer tourists. People didn’t dare to come to New York. I asked a lot of friends, relatives, they said that they were worried about coming to New York. Therefore less visitors. Q: Then, at that time, your main customers were Chinese or Westerners? CHIN: To be honest, for those of us who work here in Chinatown, the important thing is to have lots of tourists. Lots of New Yorkers are our customers too. But we mainly sell souvenirs to tourists. Q: Did you apply for any economic assistance money? CHIN: Yes. Q: How did you know that there was money for economic assistance? CHIN: Next door there were some restaurants, some friends, and all of them, they insisted we had the right to go and get it. So we went to apply and got it. Q: Where did you go to apply? CHIN: To the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association (CCBA). Q: Do you think they helped you? CHIN: They helped out some, they helped. Q: Do you think that it was difficult to apply? CHIN: It wasn’t that difficult. But it also wasn’t easy. Q: What about it wasn’t easy? What about it wasn’t difficult? CHIN: There were some questions, they needed to ask a bunch of questions, and there were those requirements, that stuff. And I had to find the accountant, get documentation, need to prove things. I just had to do some stuff, and there was so much to do. But speaking frankly, it was necessary. It should be like this in order to get compensation, it shouldn’t be just slipshod. Q: But you think that other people would find it to be pretty difficult? CHIN: If you’re legitimate, then it shouldn’t be a big deal. If you want to do something legitimately, just follow the law and do it. Q: Do you think that the economic assistance funds were sufficient? CHIN: This question... [Laughs] What should I say? At that time, doing business was really – considering the impact on Chinatown, it wasn’t enough. At that time, it wasn’t just my one place, but rather every single shop, they all suffered after 9/11. Q: Besides going to the CCBA to apply, did you also apply anywhere else? CHIN: No. As far as that, they told our company, there was someone at the CCBA, he went to Church Street to get it. That’s the place. Can get some economic assistance, three days of economic assistance would be a few thousand dollars. That’s not enough to compensate for such a long period of business. Q: How long was your business weakened? CHIN: It was impacted for a rather long time. Q: So about half a year? One year? Three months? CHIN: It still hasn’t stopped. It still isn’t very ideal. Q: Then— CHIN: To speak frankly, it’s only been the last few weeks, I’m talking about after 9/11 – maybe it’s the good weather – but these two or three weeks, business has been very good, not bad. I hope that things continue this way. [Laughs] Q: So how was business before 9/11? CHIN: Huh? Q: So what was Chinatown like before 9/11? How was your business? What was Chinatown like? CHIN: There wasn’t so much pressure, it was more relaxed. You could easily keep everything stable. Q: Since your business has been bad since 9/11, have you thought any way to improve it? How to fix this situation? CHIN: You have to ask yourself, you have to think about what to do. Q: So do you have any new plan? CHIN: Huh? Q: Have you thought of any new way to handle the situation? Could you speak a little bit, to educate others, how best to get through this situation? CHIN: You just rely on yourself now, how to solve your own difficulties. Q: Have you asked friends to help? CHIN: Yes. Q: Can you speak about some of the problems resulting from 9/11? CHIN: There were problems, yes— Q: If— CHIN: I hope the community could help out Chinatown, improve Chinatown. The CCBA should do something for the businesses, the neighbors, the government, do some things – I think that the CCBA hasn’t done enough for the businesses. Just look at Little Italy, it’s so small, and yet they’ve done so much to make it prosperous, they’ve done such a good job. Our CCBA, I’ll put it like this, they don’t do as much, and they don’t learn from others how to do things. I wish that whoever it is, acting as chairman of the CCBA, the CCBA should go study the excellent things others are doing, and they should improve themselves. The CCBA should unite and lead. Whatever’s the best way to lead, they should work together to improve Chinatown. Q: Other than the CCBA, is there any other community group that you wish would help out? CHIN: Of course I wish they would! Q: Is there any specific community group you wish would take action? CHIN: Whichever community group is fine with me, if they can serve us in Chinatown, the businesses, help us Chinese-Americans. Q: So do you think— CHIN: It really doesn’t matter which community group, whichever one. Q: Do you think that’s because the city government doesn’t place enough importance on Chinatown? CHIN: I feel a little bit that way, a little. Q: What do you think that Chinatown can do to make the city and state governments care about it more? CHIN: That all depends on those leaders, those Chinese-Americans, those thinkers, those in the political world, they’ve got to communicate, tell them to come help Chinatown to develop and so forth, and learn how to do these things. Look at Little Italy, and you see them so prosperous, doing so well. Such a small area, and yet they’ve done so well. Chinatown is such a large area, yet we haven’t learned how to do it. Q: Then have you ever thought of stepping forward, helping out, acting as a spokesperson for Chinatown? Acting as a leader? CHIN: No, I don’t have that kind of talent. Q: Then what kind of individual do you think can be a leader for Chinatown? CHIN: We should look for those individuals whose education and political backgrounds enable them to communicate, those who are fluent in English. We don’t use Chinese language outside, we need to speak both Chinese and English. If you have someone who only speaks Chinese as our leader, his English isn’t going to be good enough. It will take time to translate and interact, and that’s more difficult. Q: Have you encouraged your children to return to Chinatown and act as this sort of leader? CHIN: No. Q: Why not? CHIN: I haven’t. They were born here. They have their own way of thinking, different from our way of thinking. Q: Have you taken part in any of Chinatown’s activities, community organizations? CHIN: Yes, we’re involved. We’re a part of this area, because we’re doing business here. Sometimes they call on me to manage their financial affairs, that sort of thing. Q: Who do you manage for? CHIN: I help associations, like the C.H. Oak Tin Association, On Tin Club, and Shiu Kai Fong, to manage their finances. Q: How do you help them manage their finances? How much time do you spend doing it? CHIN: Not much. Sometimes I help them manage their finances, doing things in Chinatown. Sometimes, if I can help the public, then I help. I help out, that’s what I do. I use a little of my time. Q: How do you help them? You help them to collect [membership] fee? Or do you help them write check? CHIN: Sometimes I help them by signing checks. Sometimes I help them to deposit money into their checking accounts. Q: How did you start helping them, volunteering to do these things? CHIN: I volunteer to do it. Q: How did you start? CHIN: It was a long time ago, when I was working Chinatown, back in nineteen eighty-something, starting in ’82, ’83, doing stuff for them. Q: Have they ever helped you out in return? CHIN: Huh? Q: Have they ever turned around and helped you? CHIN: The associations belong to everybody. If you’re part of the group, then you want the group to do well. Q: How did you became a member of these associations? CHIN: It was those older men that called on me to join. Back then, when I came back to run the business in Chinatown, I started helping out in the associations. It was like that. Q: You joined the associations because the businesspeople were there? Or because you’re originally from the same place [in China]? CHIN: At that time, I joined the associations because I was doing business in Chinatown everyone knew each other, everyone was pretty much in contact with each other, everyone— Q: So all the members were people doing business in Chinatown? CHIN: Some of them weren’t. Some of them were. It wasn’t all. Q: I hear at that time, the associations was very powerful. Is that true? CHIN: At that time, one of the associations was very powerful, it was the Chinese Merchant’s Association. And there was the Hip Sing Association, its powerful was greater. Q: How were they powerful? Why were they so powerful? CHIN: Because they protected their members. That was the way that, sometimes— Q: How did they protect their members? CHIN: Huh? Q: How did they protect their members? CHIN: I’m not really clear on that. I know that whenever they had problems, they would help their members. They wouldn’t oppress [take advantage of] people. They would handle things fairly. They would just be fair, right or wrong, they would do it like that. Q: How about you, have you ever been taken advantage by anybody while doing business in Chinatown? CHIN: In Chinatown, we haven’t really been taken advantage by anyone. If you do business in Chinatown, you would have some protection by joining these associations. At least, everyone works together to solve problems. Q: How are you protected? CHIN: Huh? Q: How are you protected? CHIN: If there’s some crisis, then everybody talks about how to solve it. Q: I’ve heard that at that time, toughs would come over to get “lucky envelopes” [money], was that true? CHIN: That was true. During Chinese New Years, they would delivery a plate of lucky fruits, then one person [tough] would take a hundred and some dollars, several hundred dollars, like that. Some of them paid protection money, every month they have to pay protection money, the restaurants. That’s what I hear anyway. I don’t know if it was true or not. Q: You didn’t have to pay? CHIN: I’ve never given any [protection money]. But during New Year, or the fifteenth of August [Moon Festival], they would bring some mooncakes and I’d give a hundred and some dollars. Or during New Year, they would bring some lucky fruits and I would give a hundred and some dollars to them. Q: How long has this situation been going on? CHIN: Well, this kind of situation started when I began in 1980. At the beginning, when I had just started, I would give a red envelope of several hundred dollars to those toughs. Or else they would do something. Q: And when do you stop? CHIN: I already stopped doing that many years ago. Q: Five years ago? Ten years ago? CHIN: It’s been at least seven or eight years. Ever since Chinatown started to clean up that kind of thing, those toughs— Q: Was it the government that cleaned them up, or did the police get rid of them? CHIN: I don’t know about that. Whether it was the government or the police, I’m not really sure. But anyway, during these last eight or ten years, that type of thing hasn’t been happening. Q: So nobody else has tried to bother you? CHIN: No. Not in the last few years. Q: Is there anything else you’d like to say about Chinatown, or about yourself? CHIN: I wish that the Chinese-American leaders of Chinatown, that is those leaders in the CCBA, I hope that they will interact with the city government to get them to help us, to save our Chinatown. Because our Chinatown is – we have so many businesses here, so many people here, but we haven’t gotten significant attention, not like Little Italy, I wish that we— Q: Then what plans do you have for the next few years? What plans do you have for this shop? CHIN: I rent this place. As far as that goes, I’m good friends with the landlord, we’re friends, we get along pretty well. As long as the landlord lets me rent it, I’ll rent it. (Laughs) Q: Then when would you like to retire? CHIN: Huh? (Coughs) Q: Then when do you intend to retire? CHIN: How should I put it, this is something I haven’t -- when I have time, there’s still plenty of time to retire, I’m still working hard. It’s not time yet. Q: So what does your wife do? CHIN: She helps me out. Q: So you— CHIN: She comes and goes, she also works. Sometimes she comes and helps me. Q: How many people work for you? CHIN: Three. Q: Are you open seven days a week? CHIN: Yes. Q: And what are your business hours? CHIN: Usually it’s 11 AM to 9 PM. Q: That’s a long time to be open each day. CHIN: Ten hours. All of us Chinese here go by the time. Q: Have you ever gone back to China or Hong Kong for vacation? CHIN: We go back to China two or three times a year to get new goods. It’s not for vacation. It’s always to go to the factories and get goods. Q: What do your children do? CHIN: My daughter is an accountant, a CPA. My son is in business management. Q: Are you satisfied with their choice of work, with their lives? CHIN: It’s OK. We struggle really hard, but my children make good money. You know Chinese people have a tradition: the parents should go without eating if necessary and struggle in order to give the children food and let them study hard. They study hard and gain some skills, they get a good job, and that’s our— Q: Have you thought about asking your children to come back and continue your business? CHIN: We struggle so much, and we are only taking a salaries. But they have such freedom, they already have really good jobs, they wouldn’t want to work so hard just to make a living. It would make no sense for me to tell them to come back and do this kind of work. Q: One day when you retire, do you intend to live in Chinatown, or would you like to move somewhere else? CHIN: I also have a home in Queens now. I always come back. This is where I work, and it’s more convenient. I can go outside and come back in. Q: When would you like to retire and live in Queens? CHIN: That’s what my wife wants now. Q: Where in Queens? CHIN: It’s in Briwood. Q: Briwood. Are there many Chinese there? Why did you choose to live there? CHIN: We’ve had that place for a long time already. We bought a place there back in ’73. Q: Why did you choose that place? CHIN: At that time, that place wasn’t so expensive, it also wasn’t so cheap, it was a few tens of thousands of dollars. We were able to afford it. Q: Is there anything else you’d like to say? CHIN: Nothing else. Q: OK. Thank you very much, Mr. Chin. [end of session] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問: 我們可以開始了。Today is January 7, 2004. My name is Teri Chan. I’m at the New Crown Inc., which is located at 57-59 Mott Street in Chinatown, New York. 今天是七月六，no，一月七日2004年。我是陳秋紅。現在我們在新皇冠公司，Mott街，57-59號，紐約市。請跟我們說你的中文名字與英文名字。 陳: 我的中文名字叫陳穩強。我的英文名字就叫Jack Chin。 問: 你是幾時出生, 還有在那裏出生？ 陳: 我是在中國出生，就1939年。 問: 中國那裏呢？ 陳: 廣東，台山。 問: 台山是城市，還是村子呢？ 陳: 是個城市來的，村子是大村。 問: 那你是城市裏出生還是鄉下呢？ 陳: 是鄉下出生。 問: 那你是什麽時候來到美國的？ 陳: 1954年。 問: 那時候你大概多大啊？ 陳: 12歲。 問: 那你是怎麽來到美國的? 陳: 是，這個呢，我爸爸申請我們，去了美國就去加拿大。 問: 你是先來美國呢? 你先來美國里那呢？ 陳: 我先到美國就是在舊金山。 問: 在舊金山住了多久啊？ 陳: 我在那是過境。 問: 然後你們去加拿大那裏呢？ 陳: 然後我們去Corwall, Ontario。然後就去呢Montreal，讀high school那時候。 問: 你們是一家人一起來的呢還是你一個人自己過來的? 陳: 我來的那時候是跟我mother還有我的cousin來的。 問: 你的媽媽還有你的cousin? 陳: No, 我媽媽後來才來。 問: 是你跟你的-- 陳: Cousin。 問: Cousin。爲什麽只有你跟你的cousin呢？是怎麽可以申請你的cousin一起來的呢？ 陳: 那時候我媽媽還在鄉下，在廣州那時候。就，那時候我已經可以過香港了。我已經來到，但是我媽媽在大陸那時候還沒有批准她來。 問: 爲什麼你先去香港而你媽媽沒去香港呢？ 陳: 那時候我們又經過申請批准來到香港。然後到了香港未能來移民出國。 問: 那時候是可以合法申請—申請移民出國了？ 陳: 是的。但是那時候在中國比較難批准。 問: 你在鄉下還有哥哥，妹妹，或者姐妹嗎？ 陳: 我哥哥就早一點去加拿大。早我一年、兩年前, 的時間去加拿大。 問: 你們不是一起申請的嗎？ 陳: 是的，是一起申請。但問題因為我哥哥那時候在香港，我那時候還在廣州。 問: 那你爸爸是去加拿大做什麽的呢？ 陳: 我爸爸在加拿大做餐館還有做雜貨店。 問: 他什麽時候去了加拿大呢？ 陳: 很久了。應該我還沒出生的時候他就去了加拿大。那時候他是留學時過去讀書的。 問: 那時候，對他來講，留學是不是很平常的事，還是比較困難的？ 陳: 這一層呢我就不知道了。我知道他辦留學去加拿大的，那時候我聽他們講。 問: 那你怎麼樣，你剛到加拿大你感覺是怎麽樣？你感覺是怎樣? 陳: 那時候還年輕，我玩哪，還蠻好。 問: 你那時候是不是去加拿大學英文的？ 陳: 是的，在加拿大學英文。 問: 那你們留在加拿大留了多久呢？ 陳: 十年左右。 問: 接下來你們搬到那裏呢？ 陳: 搬到New York。 問: 爲什麽搬到紐約呢？ 陳: 因爲我太太的那些兄弟姐妹都在這裏。那時候在這裏找口飯吃比較容易。後來就來這裏。 問: 你在那裏認識你太太的？ 陳: 在香港。 問: 你過來了加拿大之後你才回香港認識你太太？ 陳: 是的。有些少親戚關係，有人介紹才認識的。 問: 那時候你是幾歲, 可不可以問一下? 陳: 那時候21、2歲左右。 問: 那你覺得那時候這麽早結---那時候算不算是早結婚呢？ 陳: 算的。 問: 那你那時候感覺是這麽樣？ 陳: 我們那一代，那時候，我們多數是聽那些爸爸媽媽的意思。比較聽爸爸媽媽，去成立個家庭。所以比較早。 問: 是你爸爸媽媽叫你回香港認識這女孩? 陳: 是的。 問: 那你感覺，你覺得在加拿大的生活與過來紐約的生活有什麽不同啊？ 陳: 我認爲加拿大的福利投資比這裏好。你如果講做工或做生意就這裏比較好，機會好一點。 問: 爲什麽這裏的機會會好一點？ 陳: 這裏的人口，這裏的人口比較多。繁華的城市比較繁忙。 問: 那你跟我說，剛剛來到紐約住在那裏？是不是唐人街？ 陳: 剛開始我們來時住在Brooklyn。在那個18大道與52街那里。 問: 那時候你住在有沒那裏有唐人呢？ 陳: 都有，很少唐人。 問: 爲什麽住那裏呢？ 陳: 因爲那時候，我們來到那時候---我太太的家姐的同學在那買了屋在那裏，所以我們也去那裏住。 問: 那你第一份工作是什麽? 陳: 就在這裏當企檯邊（待應）。 問: 那家餐廳？ 陳: 在Four Seasons，Blues Hall。57街與Park Avenue交街。 問: 爲什麽會到那裏工作呢？你那時英文是不是已經很好了？ 陳: 怎麽講，不是好，但是可以應付就是了。可以應付。 問: 那時候是不是鬼佬，Four Seasons是不是一間鬼佬餐館啊？ 陳: 是唐人餐廳，鬼佬同唐人合作做的。就是西人同唐人合作做的。 問: 那時候是幾年呢？ 陳: 那時候是1970年的時侯。 問: 你在Midtown做事你覺得機會是如何？ 陳: 那時候我在那裏做，一個星期做五天。休息時就回唐人街那個Louis鍾那個bar做一天。散工來的。 問: 叫什麽名字? 陳: Louis鍾。 問: Louis鍾。 陳: Yeah. 問: 在那里？ 陳: 現在就是靠這個corner這個，中國銀行那里的location。 問: 在那一條街？ 陳: 在Mulberry與Canal交接哪里。第二間。 問: 那時候你在—你在Midtown工作情況是怎麽樣? 陳: 比較嚴格了。我們上班差不多開工的時候五點---譬如五點鐘餐開始時，我們要standby，就是企檯的station那個position來的。 問: 只有下午班？ 陳: 不是。我們都有上早班，晚餐都做。 問: 待遇好不好？ 陳: 一般了，就一般了。就是比中國街那些好一點。比中國街那些好一點。 問: 怎麽樣好一點？ 陳: 我們那時候做那些就比較客仔比較高級一點。我們那時候出糧都是算一個鐘頭給我們的。就是算鐘，就是個几銀錢一個鐘。就是沽一個人的鐘。不像中國街這樣算是不同的，論一個月的，我們是論一個鐘頭。 問: 那小費是不是自己入袋的？ 陳: 是，小費我的自己入袋的。 問: 那時候是怎麽樣分法，你們的小費？ 陳: 在那裏呢，我們就他們客人給我們是我們的，給captain是captain的。給check衣那些是他們的。他們all分開的。 問: 現在是不是一樣的？ 陳: 現在那餐館應該沒做了。 問: 那你在那裡做了多久？ 陳: 做了九年。 問: 那你有沒有遇到什麽特別，怪事啊，或者不平的事啊，或者開心的事，在那裏做了那麽久？ 陳: 你知道那時候，怎麽說，有一些---那些---我們由那些經理，waiter那樣的。有時呢，你好運時，你有一些人好的客仔。有時就差點了。我們呢平均來講都過得去。那時候，都有七，八百塊每個月。 問: 那時候那個價錢算高資嗎? 陳: 都過得去那樣。 問: 那你講給我聽，在酒吧做工的時候有什麽不同? 陳: 酒吧呢，就我off呢就回來唐人街酒吧我又是做企檯。有時老細(老闆)休息時或vacation就叫我來幫他望一望有時候就--- 問: 酒吧都有給吃？ 陳: 它有餐館。就它是餐館來的。不過多數人去那裏是喝酒的。 問: 是什麽樣的人去那裏喝酒呢? 陳: 唐人還有義大利人。 問: 那時候Canal街是怎麽樣的？ 陳: 那時候Canal街就沒有，怎麽講，沒現在這麽忙。 問: 大部分是什麽人，還有什麽生意來的，那時候？ 陳: 那時候都是，一半那些義大利人，還有中國人。有些（inaudible）就我所知。 問: 他們大多數，那時候唐人是做什麽生意的？ 陳: 唐人那時候就做餐館，做那些衣館，那些車衣的多了。車衣廠了。以前，那時候唐人街都有七，聽那些人一般講，中國街那時的車衣廠都有超過七百間。現在，我想有一百間，七，八十間都不一定。我聽人家講的，我也不知道。我不是這行的。 問: 那你又怎麽轉了行來做這家公司了? 陳: 那時候，因爲我們有一位兄弟，就我以前開始在篤親公所樓下的，我們的兄弟，就他做了個餐館。又去做了銀行來的。那我呢就聽過話他們去做什麽--- 就開始在這個Bayard街開始，1979年。就沒做餐館了。就在Bayard街開始做了。 問: 那時候是一樣的店，但是在Bayard街? 陳: 我們啊，我們在8，應---我們在90年就moved過來這裏。 問: 那時候是賣什麽的？ 陳: 開始時就賣那些瓷器。就賣那些magazine賣報紙了。 問: 但是主要是賣瓷器啊? 陳: 不是，那時候賣報紙賣很多在那裏。那時候街邊那裏沒那麽多報紙檔，在Grand街那時以前我們在那裏賣很多報紙。一日呢，可以講到至少都八、九百份。多少錢一份啊？一份銷路的報紙。 問: 那時候是賣那幾份報紙，你記不記得? 陳: 那時候有星島啦，聯合啦，北美啦，北美日報，還有哪個新報，這些啦。 問: 總共來講這四張是--- 陳: 僑報啦。那時候有僑報啦。 問: 那在Bayard街幾號啊？ 陳: 62-64號。 問: 也是一樣的名字啊？ 陳: 以前是皇冠，搬來就是新皇冠。我們搬來是新皇冠。 問: 你是---那時候不是你自己的，是你朋友叫你--- 陳: 是我的，是我自己的。就是他們自己去做餐館，去做銀行，我就接過來做。 問: 你買過來做的？ 陳: Yeah, 我們接過來做的。 問: 你是怎麽決定接下來做的呢？因爲你沒有做過這一行? 陳: 是這樣的。那時候做企檯已經做了將近九年了，將近九年了哦。這樣出來，這個，這個樣轉的時候---那時候我出來，很多人，都對我都，我那時候在那裏上班來講我都過得去。都能夠維持家庭的。這樣有些人都跟我講，我出來嘗試是可不可以的。 問: 剛開始覺得辛不辛苦啊？有沒有賺錢啊？ 陳: 開始那時候就還滿辛苦的。因為自己不是這一行的。這樣生意就不是這麽理想。自己就慢慢慢慢的就做起來。 問: 時間長不長啊？ 陳: 過了七、八個月的時候，我就應付得了。都挨上七、八個月。那時候我們的叔父啊，朋友啊常常來支持，幫助我。 問: 怎麽支持呢？他們是買東西呢，怎麽幫你呢？ 陳: 有些人呢有說，如果我需要錢就可以---給些錢我投資。我呢，給我意見他們，但是我都沒拿。有時候啊，有些--- 問: 那你賣的陶瓷，我知道報紙主要的客人是中國人。但陶瓷主要賣個什麽人？ 陳: 那時候開始就是中國人多。逐漸逐漸呢西方人都有找我們。 問: 那時候多不多遊客來唐人街？西方人遊客多不多？ 陳: 我們在Bayard街那時候，晚上就很旺。所以我們那時候開到12點鐘。那時候Bayard 街就比，夜晚來講，就比Mott街旺很多。那時候Bayard街，過了一段時間，我們做的那時候，那全街，差不多全是，很多餐廳開夜。五點鐘---很多餐館都是(開到)五點鐘。 問: 是什麽時候開始改變那些---Bayard街沒這麽忙？ 陳: 我們搬過來這裏呢Bayard街不久就---就比較，夜晚就沒這麽忙。 問: 你們爲什麽搬來這個地方呢？ 陳: 因爲那時候有兩個, 有個親戚，有朋友，就時時幫我，在公司義務式幫我來的。所以我問他（們），你如果有興趣就來這裏那個位置一起做。我就基本貨拿出來。他們就允許。這樣他們就拿個舖位來這裏做。 問: 你的舖位是怎麽拿？ 陳: 是個朋友介紹。 問: 我想問一下當時的舖位租金是多少？ 陳: 那時候舖位的租金都上三千塊來的。 問: 那你是做約的，還是口頭上答應租的? 陳: 那是我們開始是在59號那裏。現在我在這裏屋主就比較friendly。對我們就滿好的---現在我們的屋主滿好。 問: 是不是一起的，這兩家？ 陳: 是。以前我們在59號，這裏57。 問: 那你搬過來之後，你是主要是賣什麽？是不是賣同樣的東西，還是已經賣不一樣的東西? 陳: 差不多同樣的東西。 問: 但我現在看到很多家具，你幾時開始做其他的東西？ 陳: 我呢就有，搬過來這裏呢，九幾年，九二、三年，就開始做家具。應該是92年左右開始做。 問: 你搬過來之後呢，你見到唐人街有沒有轉變啊？這十幾年來，是怎麽變化？ 陳: 搬過來呢就同以前來講呢，就我們感覺到現在比以前旺一點。就比以前就—那時候比較好做點。 問: 怎麽樣好做點呢？ 陳: 啊？ 問: 怎麽樣好做點呢，以前？ 陳: 競爭，就競爭沒這麽多了，那時候。我想，我不知道。以前就比較好做點。 問: 那這幾年來呢？那近來這幾年生意是怎麽樣？生意情況是怎麽樣？ 陳: 這幾年呢就都，怎麽講呢，就不是，就一般這樣了。 問: 可不可以講一下關於911對你的生意的影響? 有沒有，怎麽樣影響呢？ 陳: 自從911就都影響到（inaudible）什麼來的— 問: 聽不懂。 陳: 就很厲害的---就很厲害的---就跌得比較小一點。 問: 是怎---是什麽原因呢? 陳: 啊? 問: 是什麽原因呢你生意跌得這麽厲害？ 陳: 少些遊客。 問: 那我重新問過。你911發生的那一天你在那裏？ 陳: 在家裏。 問: 家在那裏呢？ 陳: 我在我唐人街的apartment來的。 問: 在樓上? 陳: 在樓上。 問: 那你在唐人街住了多久啦? 陳: 在唐人街住了都有15年---15年了。 問: 那你是怎麽知道是---當日的情況是怎麽知道的? 陳: 我兒子就打電話給我的，說New York發生這麽大的事，World Trade Center。他叫我立刻開電視看。那時第一架就轉過來就，怎麽了，—就已經以爲是accident。但我打開TV，我開了TV那時候呢，看到第二架那架飛機就這麽轉過來。那時候就是有意的了。我那時候就睇見什麼了。 問: 那你有沒有出來看一下？ 陳: 我出來呢，那時候我就下來這裏。但我們那時候就沒開門---就沒開門了。但是人都在這裡這裏走。在華義街，在這裡走過來。就很多，那人呢，頭髮，衣服，好多那些塵灰啊。看見那時候就比較可怕。 問: 那你有沒有想自己也走呢? 陳: 那時候呢，怎麽講呢，我的子女在這裏。這樣就，怎麽說，走去那裏？意思來講，就見步行步了。是這個情形。 問: 那你的子女去了那裏，那時候？ 陳: 我的女兒是在New Jersey。我的兒子在洛省, 在Hollywood那裏。 問: 那你太太呢，那一日在那裏？ 陳: 我們一起在中國街這個apartment。 問: 你可不可以講一下911對你事業的影響？對這裏生意的影響。 陳: 影響是滿大的。 問: 爲什麽呢？ 陳: 少了那些遊客了嘍。沒有這些遊客，人不敢來New York。我都問很多朋友，那些親戚的，他們，就 (講) 來New York比較有些心“歉”(不舒服)。這樣他們就少一些了。 問: 那時候你主要的客人是遊客，中國人，還是西人呢？ 陳: 坦白講呢，中國街我們這一行來講，主要是很多是遊客的。我們都有很多New York的本地客了。但是我們主要是遊客，做那些禮品。 問: 那你有沒有申請那些補助金啊，救濟金啊？ 陳: 有。 問: 那你是怎麽知道救濟金啊？ 陳: 就他們, 隔壁有些餐館啊，朋友啊，個個就，應當我們有權，去拿。我們就去申請拿了。 問: 你是去那裏申請的啊? 陳: 去這個中華公所。 問: 你覺得他們有沒有幫到你呢？ 陳: 都幫到些，都幫到。 問: 你覺得申請困不困難啊？難不難啊？ 陳: 困難也不是很困難。也不是很容易。 問: 怎麽不容易呢？怎麽不困難呢？ 陳: 有些問題呢，他(們)需要(問)很多問題，有些條件啊，又去找那些會計, 拿那些證件，需要證明這些東西。就有做一些，就有做多少事。 我坦白講，都是應該的。手續上應該是這樣做的，不要這樣隨便。 問: 但你覺得對其他的人比較困難？ 陳: 合手續就應當沒什麼，你要做些合手續上，正規去做。 問: 那你覺得你拿的補助夠不夠呢？ 陳: 這個問題, (laughs)怎麽講呢？那時做生意真是，生意來講，對唐人街的影響，真是不夠的。那時候不是只有我們一家，家家都是怎麽樣，都是很差，911之後。 問: 那你除了去中華公所申請之外，還有沒有去其它地方申請？ 陳: 沒有。這個呢，就我們公司，叫我們公司，中華公所有個人，去那個Church街那裏拿個, 那裏是舖頭。拿一些補助，補助3日，就幾千塊。都不夠，生意這麽久的時間。 問: 生意是淡了多久呢？ 陳: 都影響到几長的時間了。 問: 大概半年，一年，三個月? 陳: 都不止。以現在來講，都還沒有，什麽來的，自從911後都不是很理想。 問: 就--- 陳: 這些是---坦白講，就是這些，911之後來講呢，這幾個星期呢就---或者氣候好一點，那兩三個星期呢，生意是滿好，不錯的。但希望這樣繼續下去就好了。(laughs) 問: 那911之前生意是怎麽樣呢？ 陳: 啊? 問: 那911之前的唐人街是怎麽樣呢？你的生意是怎麽樣？唐人街的情況是怎麽樣? 陳: 沒那麽逼，比較輕鬆點。都維持，都輕鬆點維持。 問: 那你，那你自從911生意怎麽不好之後，有沒有想怎麽樣來補助呢？補救這個情況呢? 陳: 這些，有你自己對自己，去想這麽做。 問: 那你有沒有新的方法呢？ 陳: 啊? 問: 那你有沒有想過新的方法呢？行得通的，可以講給其他人聽得？教一下其他人的。 陳: 現在就靠自己去，怎麽去解決自己的困難。 問: 你怎麽樣，有沒有叫朋友的幫忙啊？ 陳: 有。 問: 那你有沒有想講有關911的問題呢？ 陳: 有麽有--- 問: 如果--- 陳: 都希望社區如果能夠幫我們唐人街的，點樣整好唐人街。應當他們中華公所做點這些，做些事出來，給些商戶，給些街坊，比些官方，做點事出來，要不然個個，這麽說---我認爲中華公所爲我們的商戶都做不出什麽來的。義大利區這麽小的地方來講，做得那麽旺，做得那麽好。我們中華公所呢，我認爲呢，這麽來講呢，就做不到這麽多，學不到人家的做法。我希望他們能夠，誰做中華公所主席好，就中華公所是怎麽樣去學人家的比較優秀，進步優秀。因爲團結中華公所領導。這麽樣去領導，去合作發展華埠。 問: 除了中華公所之外，你有沒有希望其他社團都出來幫手？ 陳: 當然希望了！ 問: 有沒有什麽社團你希望他們出來？ 陳: 那一個社團都好，能爲，怎麽說，爲我們華埠，能爲要幫我們華埠，的商業，幫我們華僑。 問: 那你覺得… 陳: 無所謂那個社團。 問: 你覺得是不是因爲市政府，市政府對唐人街不重視呢？ 陳: 我也感覺這裏有一點。 問: 那你覺得唐人街應該可以做什麽使市政府與州政府對唐人街比較重視? 陳: 那要靠那些頭，那些華人，那些領導，那些僑，那些有頭，裏面那些政界，有得溝通，叫他們來幫我們中國街怎麽發展，怎麽樣學一學這些。義大利區你看看人家多旺，多好。那麽小的地方，都做得這麽好。我們中國街這麽大的地方，都學不到。 問: 那你有沒有想過自己出來，幫手一下，替唐人街做一下宣傳啊，做一下領導? 陳: 沒，我沒這樣能手。 問: 那你覺得什麽樣的人才可以做唐人街的領導呢？ 陳: 我呢，怎麽講，我認爲這個，找那些學職同對政府政界要夠通的。能夠明白那些伶俐的英語，那些東西的。我們外表不是講中文的，是中文與英文的。找個中文的出來做領導，他英文又不行。要花點時間翻譯交通比夠困難一點。 問: 那你有沒有鼓勵你子女回來唐人街做這些領導呢？ 陳: 沒有。 問: 爲什麽? 陳: 沒有。我們，怎麽講呢，他們在這裏出世。他們有他們的想法的。同我們的想法不同。 問: 那我想問問你，你有沒有參加唐人街其他的活動，社團，像這些--- 陳: 我們參加呢，有時就是環境上來講，因爲我們在這裏做生意。有時他們叫我呢，就那時候叫我呢，打理那些財務，那些東西。 問: 在那裏打理啊？ 陳: 幫那些公所啊, 篤親，安親，秀溪房打理財務。 問: 你是怎麽樣幫他們打理財務呢？用多少時間? 陳: 很少。有時候幫他們管理的財務，怎麽講，我們在唐人街做事來講。有時呢，能幫的到公家就幫了。就幫了，就怎個意思。就抽些時間。 問: 你是怎麽樣幫他的？你是幫他們收錢，還是幫他們寫check啊。 陳: 有時，就幫他們有時sign check。有時幫他們間中拿錢去，進入那些支票account。 問: 你是怎麽樣開始幫他們做，義務做這些是呢？ 陳: 是義務做的。 問: 你是怎麽樣開始的？ 陳: 很久了，那時候，唐人街做，八幾年那時候，八二、三年開始做，替他們做。 問: 他們有沒有反過來幫你呢？ 陳: 啊? 問: 他們有沒有反過來幫你呢？ 陳: 我們，怎麽講呢，公所的團體是大家的。你在這個團體，你都想這個團體好。 問: 你是怎麽樣入公所做工所的會員啊? 陳: 是那些父兄叫我進去的。那時候，在唐人街做生意那時候回來，進入，回來公所幫幫，就是幫公家，這樣了。 問: 你進入公所是因爲大家做生意呢？或者是因爲你們同一個地方出來的？ 陳: 那時候我，進入公所那時候是，開始入，我那時候呢，去唐人街做生意的。就大家認識，大家多些聯絡的. 問: 會員全部都在唐人街做生意的? 陳: 有些就不是。都有些是的。都不完全是。 問: 我聽那時候公所厲害很大的。是不是真的？ 陳: 那時候就是，一方面呢就是公所厲害大。那時候就是一個，安良公商會了，還有一個協勝工會。它就比較什麽來的，實力比較大的。 問: 他們的實力是怎麽樣大呢? 爲什麽他們的實力這麼大呢？ 陳: 他們就保護他們的會員。就像是有時--- 問: 怎麽樣保護呢？ 陳: huh? 問: 怎麽樣保護呢？ 陳: 這我就不是很清楚了。我知道是他們有什麽問題呢，就他們會保護他們的會員了。他們不想給人家“蝦”(壓迫)。他們就拿個公道出來了。就他們就比較，拿公道，對不對或不對，就這樣。 問: 那你在唐人街做生意又沒有給人“蝦”過啊？ 陳: 我們在唐人街呢，就沒怎麽給人“蝦”過。所以就，在唐人街做生意呢，你進入這個會呢，就有些保障了。At least有什麽事大家合作解決問題。 問: 怎麽保障呢？ 陳: huh? 問: 怎麽保障呢？ 陳: 有什麽急事就大家，有什麽困難大家商量下什麽解決了。 問: 那我聽那時候流氓會過來問，拿利是這些。是不是真的？ 陳: 是真的。我們來講呢，就過年呢，他們就送盤吉果，就一人拿一百幾十塊了，幾百塊這樣的。有些就給保護費，每一個月都要個保護費了，餐館啊。但是我是聽他們講。真是假我就不是很知道。 問: 你自己就不用給？ 陳: 我就沒給過。過年就，或八月十五，拿些月餅就給一百幾十塊給他(們)。過年啊，拿吉果，就給一百幾十塊給他們。 問: 這個情況維持多久呢？ 陳: 我開始做那時候, 八十年, 都開始有這個現象。那時候我開始都有，開始做那時候都給紅包給那些流氓。好像幾百塊那時候的紅包。不然他們就什麽來的。 問: 那什麽時候才停呢? 陳: 停止都有很多年。 問: 五年內，十年內？ 陳: 都七、八年，最少都有七，八年。自從中國街就，那個，clean up那些什麽，那些流氓就--- 問: 是政府清理他們，是警察拉走他們？ 陳: 那我就不知道。不過這些就是政府或是警察我就不是很清楚。不過這十年，八年就沒有這樣的現象出現。 問: 沒有其他人來bother你們？ 陳: 沒有。這幾年沒。 問: 那你有沒有其它想講，關於唐人街，或者關於你自己的呢？ 陳: 我希望這個唐人街的僑領，就中華公所的領導，最好希望他們領頭市政府，交通這些，怎麽樣來幫助我們，來怎麽拯救我們的華埠。因爲我們的華埠真是，怎麽講，就沒，不是這麽，我們有這麽多商戶在這裏，有這麽多人在這裏，起不到大的作用，同人家這個義大利區比人，希望我們--- 問: 那你覺得以後幾年你自己有什麽打算啊？這間店有什麽打算呢？ 陳: 這個是我租來的。這個來講呢，屋主我們都是好朋友，都是朋友，都蠻好的。屋主給我租我就租了。(laughs) 問: 那你想什麽時候退休呢？ 陳: huh? (coughs) 問: 那你想什麽時候退休呢？ 陳: 怎麽講，這還沒，怎麽講，自己有時，退休時間又多，做工又辛苦。還不是這樣。 問: 那你太太是做什麽的？ 陳: 過來幫我手的。 問: 那你--- 陳: 她來有時走，她也是做工，有時過來幫忙。 問: 那這裏你請多少人做工的啊？ 陳: 三個。 問: 那你是開七日的？ 陳: 是。 問: 時間是到幾點鐘呢？ 陳: 通常11點到9點。 問: 時間都滿長的。 陳: 十個鐘頭了。我們中國人在這裏個個都是靠時間。 問: 那你有沒有回到大陸或者香港玩呢？ 陳: 我們一年都回大陸兩次到三次拿貨。都不是回去玩，都是去廠拿貨，就是拿貨了。 問: 那你子女是做什麽的？ 陳: 我女兒是會計師來的, CPA來的。我兒子就是做商業管理來的。 問: 那你對他們選擇的工作，他們的生活滿不滿意呢？ 陳: 都ok啦。自己辛苦，子女，他們都賺錢。你知道我們中國人都一般的傳統，父母不吃也得給子女吃多辛苦都供子女讀書了。他們讀得成書有本事，有份好的工作，是我們就--- 問: 那你有沒有想過叫子女回來接這個生意來做呢？ 陳: 他們，怎麽講呢，我們這麽辛苦，多是拿份人工。他們多自由，他們有份好的工作，他都不會想要這樣這麽辛苦來找口飯吃。這樣沒有道理叫他們來做這行的。 問: 那你有一天退了休你會不會想在唐人街住下來，或者搬到其它地方退休呢？ 陳: 我現在在Queens也有間房子在那裏。我都有回來。我在這裏做工，比較方便出入這樣。 問: 你想那一日退了休回去Queens。 陳: 我太太就這麽想。 問: Queens那裏啊? 陳: 在Briwood那裏。 問: Briwood。那裏唐人多不多？你們爲什麽選那裏住？ 陳: 我們很久了。我們七、七三年買在那裏。都七三年開始買在那裏。 問: 爲什麽選那裏呢？ 陳: 那時候環境就，那棟房屋又不想貴，又不是平(便宜)，幾萬元可以買得到。那時候按自己的能力去做這件事。 問: 還有什麽你想講的呢？ 陳: 都沒什麽了。 問: OK. 多謝，陳先生。 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jack Chin 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Tin Din Ng Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Florence Ng Chinatown Interview: Date 0000-00-00 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation CCBA Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: This is the Museum of Chinese in the Americas’ historical oral recordings. Today we have invited the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association chairman, Mr. Ting Deng Ng, for an interview. I am Florence Ng, and I will conduct the interview. Could you please tell us when you came to America? NG: I came towards the end of 1975 to America. Before 1975, I went from mainland China to Hong Kong, and then came to America. For eighteen years, I worked in the Hong Kong educational environment. When I first came to America I, well, when I first came to America, the main reason was that I was concerned about my children’s education, I had four children that were going to go to college, and at that time, Hong Kong’s situation was very difficult, and there weren’t so many slots for students, and college was very difficult… So I came to America. Having arrived in America, my whole family worked at textile factories, laundries, restaurants, and for over ten years, I worked continuously for the sake of my daughters. So as far as that time goes, I didn’t really know much about New York’s Chinatown. That’s because I didn’t work in Chinatown during that time. I worked on the outside, in places like Manhattan and Queens, so I didn’t know too much about New York’s Chinatown. Ten years ago I had retired, and since I didn’t have anything to do after retirement, I went back to a family clan organization, and other community organizations, localized, locally organized community groups, and I joined some organizations of people with the same birthplaces. I got to know Chinatown from that time on. Q: Chairman Ng, when you first came to America, what was your impression of Chinatown? What problems existed in Chinatown? NG: In 1975 when I came, back in 1975, Chinatown didn’t have so many immigrants. The immigrants started coming after the eighties. When I came, most of Chinatown was garment factories, textile shops, and, as far as Chinese people went, they worked in textile shops or in restaurants. At that time, Chinatown wasn’t so flourishing. It was very quiet. That was thirty years ago. Q: At that time, did Chinatown have any serious problems, such as safety, housing, or troublemakers? NG: Back then, Chinatown, because most of the… the history goes like this, in the beginning, most of the people in New York’s Chinatown had been from Taishan, there were lots of people from Taishan, and a lot of decisions were made by those from Taishan, all the way until they created the Lian-cheng Gong-suo. In Chinatown, Wen-ye was mainly used by the people from Taishan. This situation continued all the way until the eighties before it started to change, because in the 80s, China became more open, and after it became more open, lots of new immigrants came. Due to the shock of this wave of new immigrants, Chinatown changed. It started to change. In any case… Because the living area within Chinatown is so restricted, a lot of the new immigrants expanded out into the outer areas, developing into the surrounding areas. Chinatown couldn’t handle so many new people, living there, staying there, working there, and so forth, and that’s why they expanded into the surrounding areas. So after the 80s, it shifted and expanded towards Flushing, Brooklyn, and developed into these new areas. Q: Chairman Ng, when you joined the community organizations and did public service, which of the major groups did you join first? NG: It was the Wu Xu Shan Gong-suo. Q: At that time, what role did you serve? NG: At that time, I joined and served as a copy clerk, a secretary. I acted as a secretary on behalf of Wu Xu Shan Gong-suo. And I also joined the Hai-yan Same-Village Organization, this was one of the Chinese-American same-village organizations within the Chinese Community Center. We had all been born in the same area, and I acted as the chairman of the Hai-yan Same-Village Organization. Later, I joined the Taishan Province Independent Middle School Alumni Organization, I joined that, and acted as the meeting chief for six years. Now I am still the chairperson of the Dong-shi Committee. After the eighties, I joined the Xie-sheng Gonghui, and the American Business Assistance Organization when I joined I became the secretary, I acted as the secretary for them all the way to today. Q: Chairman Ng, how did you later join the CCBA? NG: Well, it was like this, I was in a number of organizations, and I had worked as a chairman and a clerk and a secretary, and I came into contact with more and more of the Chinese-American organizations in the Chinatown Chinese-American community. There were a lot of meetings with Chinese-American organizations because I had acted as the chairman for sixty Chinese-American organizations, and often came back to hold meetings, so I met a lot of them. Q: Chairman Ng, I believe you took office in 2002? NG: Yes. Q: So that was already about half a year after 9/11 occurred. How big was the impact of 9/11 upon Chinatown, in your opinion? NG: Oh, it’s like this. Before I had taken office, the previous chairman, in ’01 -- At the time of 9/11, Zhong Qiao-zheng had been acting as the chairman of the CCBA. Ever since 9/11 occurred, the CCBA has done a lot. Q: What do you think was the greatest impact that 9/11 had upon Chinatown, for example, which businesses or areas were most affected? NG: 9/11 had a big impact on Chinatown. Ever since 9/11, since they closed off all the roads, it affected – all of Chinatown was paralyzed. Since nobody could move, business couldn’t go forward for about a week or two. Factories and textile mills all closed up, and transportation was stuck, causing there to be more and more unemployed people. So all of the business in Chinatown was impacted. After a few weeks, when they lifted the restrictions on entering, Chinatown couldn’t rebound, and business… There was nobody coming to Chinatown. The businesses at the time, all of the businesspeople suffered to an extent that can’t be put into words. Q: After 9/11 occurred, did the CCBA lead in coordinating other organizations to do some services and planning related to disaster relief? NG: In that regard, Chairman Zhong Qiao-zheng, in 2001, Chairman Zhong Qiao-zheng was serving when 9/11 took place, and the CCBA immediately opened all our locations and let those relief organizations set up in our community centers. We supplied these locations without attaching any conditions. Lots of relief organizations, even government economic assistance organizations, all set up at the CCBA. We hoped that we could diligently assist the government, and we worked hard to help our Chinatown citizens. Q: How big was the effect of 9/11 upon Chinatown? Has the total loss been calculated? NG: There hasn’t been an official calculation. I think that at that time, for one year or half a year, none of the businesses could go forward, and all of them, not just some of them, they all said that they had huge losses. Q: Chairman Ng, where were you when 9/11 occurred? NG: I was in Chinatown when 9/11 occurred. I was there until after 9/11, in March of 2002, when I took over as the chairman of the CCBA. I continued with all of the work that had been done by the previous chairman, and we did things more openly. After I took over… it was like this… the important thing was restoring the economy of Chinatown, the most important and most critical first step was restoring the economy of Chinatown. In that regard, what I did was, I cleaned up Chinatown, that’s the first thing, I wanted to clean up and beautify Chinatown, and I wanted everything about it to attract visitors, because Chinatown is a tourist destination. If the visitors don’t come, then it doesn’t matter what we do, everything will be useless. So in that way, we worked hard to attract tourists, and we did things like hold parades and floats. Last year was the most successful, there were two or three hundred thousand people that came and took part in our parade activities, and we wanted to try hard to attract more of these visitors, because that’s the only way to restore Chinatown’s economy. For many years, we requested that the government come and help us fix the roads, because a couple years ago the roads in Chinatown were really bumpy and raggedy and driving wasn’t convenient, and so we requested that the government fix the roads. They’ve already completed it, and they’ve opened up all the roads again. Now there’s only Park Row that hasn’t yet been reopened, the rest have been reopened. This has been a big help to Chinatown. Next, we worked hard to negotiate with the government about the parking problem. In addition, we have already started making a ceremonial gateway, we want to create a Chinese-style, a colorful Eastern, Chinese-style ceremonial gateway in Chinatown. We’ve collected donations from a lot of good people. Our work has already gone through the second district, and got the help of the third district and Manhattan, so we can do it. We’ve already asked Mr. De He Tie Ji to help us apply to the government on these plans. This work is all to beautiful Chinatown, and to attract visitors. NG: In the beginning when I was at Hong Kong, because I had some siblings and some relatives, all of them in America. My entire family had already left mainland China then, they had all left mainland China. Q: Left where in China? NG: Taishan. Taishan in Canton. I’m of Taishan descent. After 1957, our entire family left Taishan. The old folks, several of the old folks, some somewhat younger ones and my sister, everyone came to America and Canada. Myself, I stayed in Hong Kong, because I hadn’t… I had to stay in Hong Kong to finish my education. I remained there all the way through 1967 or ’68, when Hong Kong started becoming having violent protests, at which time I had already applied to come to America. My older relatives applied for me to come, and I was accepted, but I didn’t go, at the time I thought that there was no point in coming to America. Especially if we could live all right in Hong Kong, we didn’t want to come to America and struggle. Especially my old folks and my other relatives all said: “You’re a teacher, and people in academics are useless in America, because you can’t speak English, so if you come, it’s just to suffer.” And they didn’t encourage me to go. Now, 1967 and ’68 was a time of violent protests in Hong Kong, and I had been accepted, but I didn’t go. All the way until ’73 or ’74, I continued to stay and work in Hong Kong, temporarily at Bo-ya Academy. Because of my children, my children, they had all studied from elementary school to high school, and three or four of them were going to go to college in a row. In the 70s, in Hong Kong, having several children to go to college was an impossible financial burden, unless you were a rich family. It was just an impossible burden. The second problem was that at that time there weren’t enough slots for students in colleges in Hong Kong, there was only one Hong Kong University and a newly established Chinese Literature University, just these two. And in these circumstances, my children would have no chance of studying further. And my own abilities weren’t sufficient to provide, to provide for my children. In ’73, I had a daughter who tried to get into college, but was unable to test into it. She didn’t get a high enough score. After they finished studying at secondary school, they’d have to start work, and none of them felt they had any hope for the future. And so I decided to come to America. Standard of living was one thing, but the main issue was my children. I had heard, although I didn’t know it personally, in America, if you want to study, you can always study. And it was in search of that ideal that I brought them over with me. Q: Chairman Ng, after you came to America, was the life there the same as what you had imagined? Or how did you adjust? NG: I, I, as far as I go, I just do whatever, it doesn’t matter. Even when I was in mainland China, if I ploughed the field, I just ploughed it. In this regard, I didn’t think of doing anything else, I didn’t give up on things, I definitely wouldn’t do that. I just hoped that I could be very stable, that my life would be stable and that my children got a good education. That’s all. Q: Chairman Ng, when you taught in Hong Kong, what did you teach, what classes and where? NG: It’s like this, I was at an academy, Bernard College, I was an administrative head and I managed the administration. Q: OK, Chairman Ng, could you please introduce to us to the CCBA and how you came to be selected as the chairman? NG: It happened like this, the CCBA has already had 120 years of, 120 years of history. In the beginning, in the very beginning, the people from the Taishan Ning-yang Organization went and acted as the chairman of the CCBA. Because one hundred years ago, the Chinese in New York, 99% of them were from Taishan, Taishan people, so those who acted as the chairmen of the CCBA, and those that took responsibility for things at the CCBA were all people from Taishan. Each year, the chairmen came from the Taishan people. Later on, before 1990, there was a period of ten or twenty years when there were a different four, they weren’t from Taishan, I think Enping, Kaiping, and they weren’t Taishan, there were even those from other provinces, and when they came, there wasn’t any reason why the CCBA was just for Taishan people, so they formed a group, Mei-Dong Lian-cheng Gongsuo, Lian-Cheng Gongsuo, and later they had a revolving chairman. Later on, it would be two-year periods, the Lian-Cheng Gongsuo would lead for two years, and then it would go back to Ning-yang, and then Ning-yang would do it for two years and then give it back to Lian-cheng, like that. The selection of the chairman was done like this: once every two years, and I’m doing it now, it was in ’02, started in ’02, and I was put forward as a candidate by Ning-yang Gongsuo, and was selected by the greater organization, I was selected by 84 members to be the chairman. They have to put forward two or more candidates. Ning-yang Gongsuo has to put forward two candidates, and then the greater organization selects the chairman. They ended up selecting me. To put it another way, after I finish, it will go to Mei-dong Lian-cheng Gongsuo, and they will have to put forward at least two candidates. Speaking of the organizations within the CCBA, there are 60 Chinese-American groups, 60 Chinese-American groups, and outside those 60 Chinese-American groups, there are also twenty-four members, and of those 24, there are eight committee members who are selected from Lian-Cheng Gongsuo, and the other eight committee members come from Mei-dong… I mean, Ning-yang Gongsuo selects them. The other eight committee members are selected from the Business Organization, all together, that’s 24 members, and the 60 community groups, and in this way, they make up the CCBA. Q: Chairman Ng, could I bother you to explain a little what the CCBA did after 9/11 occurred in order to provide disaster relief? Is there anything currently going forward now? NG: After 9/11, besides doing some work that progressed over many months during the end of 2001, we also did lots of work with the government. All of that work, we did for the government without making any sort of demands. We didn’t get any kind of economic… everything we did, we ourselves believed that we should do however much we could do, however much we could help the government, we did that without any… so in this regard, we were just a kind of assistance to the government, and we didn’t have any sorts of demands towards them. Q: For example, Chairman Ng, you must have been involved in the allocation of disaster relief funds— NG: They didn’t come here for allocation of relief funds. There was 750,000 to be spent, but even up to now, they haven’t even done it. Q: Why? NG: Because there are many, many technological problems that haven’t been solved. Congressperson Velazquez worked with us to help us apply for 750,000 dollars to help with transportation issues, but now, because of technological problems, lots of things need to be solved, and there still hasn’t been a satisfactory resolution. Q: As far as the transportation problems go, what kind of problems are they? Or what needs to be improved? NG: This problem extends rather far, because it involves the entire Lower East Side, how to solve transportation issues, and they have to find an expert to do it, they have to do a “proposal,” how do we say “proposal” [in Chinese]? NG: Jihuashu. So they need to find an expert to create the proposal, and after that they need to think about how they’ll carry it out, and only after that they can apply again to the government, so we’re still in the preparation stage. It hasn’t been completed yet. Q: So the application has been going on from the time of 9/11 all the way until now? NG: At that time when we applied, after 9/11, the Development Office still had some money left over, and they wanted to allocate that remainder to use, and we applied, and they approved 750,000 dollars, but all the way until now, they haven’t started. Q: But have you calculated when they will be able to officially start? NG: As far as that goes, we’re in the midst of consulting on it, because government matters have a lot of problems relating to support. Q: OK, well, Chairman Ng, I’d like to ask in regard to the disaster relief carried out after 9/11, there were lots of Chinatown civic groups that took part. Do you feel that the overall coordination and progress went along smoothly, or were there some problems that had been overlooked? NG: As far as that goes, it’s like this. As far as I see it, earlier, not before 9/11, but a long, long time ago, Chinatown was split into two worlds. One was the traditional overseas Chinese community; the other was Zeng-Zheng Organization, the American Fujianese Association, the Hua-lian Organization, and because of political issues, the two sides didn’t join up. You ignore me, and I won’t pay any attention to you. And on lots of issues, they opposed each other. When I took over as chairman of the CCBA, well, I had this kind of thinking – why do we Chinese people let these small issues divide us like that, you ignore me and I ignore you; if we don’t unite together, then no matter what we struggle for, we can’t achieve it, so in this area I put forth a lot of effort. I made overtures to a lot of other Chinese-American groups, other Chinese-American groups, and in this regard, I wanted everyone to work together in this direction. OK. NG: While I’ve been at the CCBA, from the previous administration until now, and it will be two years in another two months, and then my term will be completed. I’ve always felt that two years is too short, I can not accomplish a lot during that time. My greatest wish, I believe that the Chinese-American community must become more unified. Regardless of whether or not someone is a member of the CCBA, they are still our fellow Chinese-American compatriot, and we should all be united. Everyone can have his own opinion, and can join together on the things we have in common and listen to those opinions different from our own. We can unite our efforts to work hard for things that we agree on, and on those topics we disagree on, you can have your opinion, and I’ll have my opinion. But everyone definitely has to unite, we have to unite on good terms, that’s the only way we can succeed, only as part of mainstream society can we actually accomplish something. If you strive for this and I strive for that, then there’s no benefit for Chinatown. Q: Chairman Ng, 9/11 is already two years ago, now, with your remaining time, what areas of Chinatown do you wish to improve, or do you have any advice on what can be achieved? (Tape SIDE B) NG: I think, as far as Chinatown goes, our ceremonial arch… we have to do it. We’ve already consulted on every aspect of it, and a lot of specialists have said to us, you don’t want to rush this sort of thing, you don’t want to try to get it all done in a couple years or a year and a half, this isn’t something you can hurry up. You’ve got to take your time to do it. My hope is that this is something that the next chairman and the following chairman will all continue working on. A ceremonial arch would be, Chinatown needs to have a symbol, and if it doesn’t, I think that’s not good. If we had a ceremonial arch, it would be good for the Chinatown economy, it would be good for everything, it would be a benefit to everything. The first thing we ought to do is the ceremonial arch, the second thing we need to do, as I’ve said before, the Chinese people need to unite. It doesn’t matter what form it takes, but we must expand our group in order to have the power to develop our Chinatown. Q: Chairman Ng, I know that historically, Chinese-American organizations have divided up into political factions. Do you think that this situation has improved at all? NG: Before, to the extent that I know, before, the leftist faction – what we call the left and the right don’t interact with each other, they almost consider each other enemies. There’s a lot of people who, when it comes to the right-wing faction, that is, the Nationalists, a lot of people won’t go join their Nationalist celebrations or anything else. Even if it was just having tea parties, just going out to drink together, they still wouldn’t go. And the tea parties hosted by the leftists went the same way, the Republic of China [i.e. Nationalists] and those of us who are more traditional won’t go join them. I think, that problem has gone too far. There’s no need for it to be like that. Why must it be like that? Everybody is Chinese, so why do we need this political stuff. If you want to talk politics, go talk it by yourself. But as far as Chinese go, as far as Chinatown goes, we need to unite. Towards that end, I’ve already worked really hard, and I’ve tried to invite those in the Hua-lian social circle to take part in the traditionalist activities. That would be the American Fujianese Association, the Fujian Tong-xiang-hui, the Hua-lian Zong-hui, and the organization of Mr. Liang Guan-jun. We’ve tried hard to invite them to come and do things with us. For example, beautifying Chinatown -- when we cleaned the streets, we invited them to come. When we cleaned up Mott Street and East Broadway, we did it together, everyone did it together, and we had a good time, and we at the CCBA did it together with them. So in conclusion, I hope that the Chinese people will unite. Q: Chairman Ng, I’d like to ask, after 9/11, do you think that the mainstream media and the government treated Chinatown with sufficient importance? NG: I’d say that looking at it from the present day, the government doesn’t treat us as important. I’ve said many times that we can’t cry sour grapes, but on many issues the government doesn’t consider us to be important. Q: What do you think is the reason for that? NG: We’ve already done lots of applications, and we’d like to work with the government to do things, but we haven’t gotten any help from them. Q: Have you ever thought of what the reason for that might be? For example, the community groups in Chinatown not being sufficiently united? Or something else? NG: One of the reasons is the lack of unity. I think the main reason is that we haven’t been able to push Chinatown out in the public eye. We definitely need to push Chinatown’s current situation out into mainstream society, and cause mainstream society to understand our situation. If we are always living closed off from others, then the problem becomes very serious, and it will greatly influence Chinatown’s future development. In the last two years, I have tried hard to push Chinatown onto the Western [i.e. non-Chinese] newspapers and mediums, and cause those people to understand that there is a Chinatown… We need to get them to respond. If they don’t respond to Chinatown, then the result will be very bad for Chinatown. Q: Chairman Ng, I’d like to ask you, do you think there is something influencing the mainstream media and the government, causing them not to pay sufficient attention to us? Do you think there is anything we can do to improve the situation? NG: Regarding this area, my thoughts are like this. A lot, a lot of people think that we are discriminated against. But in regards to the issue of discrimination, we need to examine ourselves first. My thoughts are like this: We need to work hard to push ourselves out in the public eye. We can’t just… decide that because of some discrimination, we won’t do anything anymore. The more you discriminate against me, the more I push my own things out there, and see what you do about it. I think American society is very free. There are a lot of things we can strive for and achieve. Q: Chairman Ng, what work do you wish for the next chairman to do in order to improve Chinatown? For example, promoting Chinatown after 9/11? NG: It’s like this. Speaking personally, I can say that the following chairman, maybe they have something that they want to do. Everyone has their own thoughts on this. I’m not needed. I hope that all of Chinatown can unite, and that I can do more work to push Chinatown out into the public eye, and work hard to improve the economy of Chinatown. Q: Chairman Ng, after you finish your term as chairman, what will you do? Do you have some plans? NG: I will retire. Q: Retire. How old are you, this year? NG: I am over seventy. Q: Over seventy. Q: Chairman Ng, I’d like you to please speak a little, what plans has the CCBA had for promoting the small businesses of Chinatown? NG: We’ve requested that the government create a small credit organization to serve small businesses, and we’ve already gained the government’s approval, and now all the small organizations, and each small group needs to take responsibility to make progress. That small business credit organization will be able to help the small businesses do the work of getting credit, and we’re currently moving ahead on this project, we’re doing it now. Q: Chairman Ng, how long will this plan take? And what does it consist of? NG: The plan will last a year. Q: And what does it consist of? NG: It consists of helping the small businesses make their applications. [END] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問︰這是華人歷史博物館口述華埠紀錄計劃。今日我們請到中華公所主席伍庭典先生接受採訪。採訪人是我﹐吳翊菁。請你講一下你是幾時來美國﹖ 伍廷典︰我是一九七五年年尾來美國的。在一九七五年以前﹐我一九七五年由大陸到香港﹐直至來美國。那十八年就在香港教育界做事的。我初初來到紐約﹐我做過…因為當時我來美國主要就為仔女的教育問題﹐當時我有四個仔女要上大學﹐因為香港當時的環境不容許、沒有那麼多學位﹐而且大學好不容易…所以我移民來到美國。來到美國之後﹐我全家人在製衣廠、洗衣館、餐室我都做過﹐十幾年我只為生活為兒女的教育奔勞的去做。所以當時來講﹐我對紐約華埠是沒甚麼認識的。因為我所工作的地方不在華埠﹐是在外圍﹐好似曼哈頓區、皇后區做事﹐我對紐約華埠的認識不多。十年之前我就已經退休﹐我退休後沒有事做﹐我返來姓氏團體、其他的社團、地方性地方組織的社團﹐我就參加這些同鄉會的組織。自從那時起﹐我接觸了華埠。 問︰伍主席﹐當時你來到美國對唐人街的印象如何﹖同唐人街有甚麼問題？ 伍廷典︰一九七五年我來的時候﹐一九七五年﹐唐人街未有那麼多移民﹐移民多是八十年代以後的事。我來的時候﹐ 唐人街多數是做衣廠、做衣館﹔唐人來講﹐做衣館、做餐室﹐當時唐人街沒有現在那麼旺盛的。是好靜的﹐這是三十年前的事。 問︰當時唐人街有沒有譬如治安上、住屋或人蛇的問題﹐比較嚴重的？ 伍廷典︰當時唐人街﹐因為多數是… 還有這樣的歷史的—初時在紐約唐人街的多數是台山人﹐台山人多﹐所有好多事決定是在台山人手裡﹐直至後來才有聯成公所。初時來到需要做事的、在唐人街搵野做的都是以台山人最多。這情形﹐直至八十年代才開始有轉變﹐因為八十年代中國大陸改革開放﹐開放之後﹐好多新的移民到﹐受新的移民的衝擊﹐唐人街就變了﹐就開始變。無論…亦因為唐人街地方環境的局限﹐所有好多新的移民要向外發展﹐向外圍去發展。因為唐人街不能容納那麼多﹐住呀﹐居住、工作等一定要向外發展。所以形成了八十年代以後﹐形成要向法拉盛、布碌崙兩國新的地區發展去。 問︰伍主席﹐你參加社團公職的時候﹐第一個參加的主要的團體是那一個？ 伍廷典︰是伍胥山公所。 問︰你當時擔任甚麼職務﹖ 伍廷典︰我當時是進去當文書﹐書記。於伍胥山公所做書記。再加入去海燕同鄉會﹐這是中華公所屬下僑團之一的海燕同鄉會。 是我們的出生的鄉下﹐我做了海燕同鄉會的主席。隨後再參加台山縣立中學校友會﹐我加入去﹐做了六年的會長。現在仍是董事會的董事長。八十年代之後﹐我參加了協勝公會﹐ 美商協勝公會﹐入去都是做書記﹐擔任他們的書記長直至現在。 問︰伍主席﹐你後來怎樣加入中華公所﹖ 伍廷典︰當時是這樣的﹐因為我在幾個會當中﹐我做了主席﹐做了文書、書記工作﹐同華埠僑社的僑團接觸越來越多。有好多中華公所入面僑團的事﹐因為我做了六十僑團的主席﹐常常回來開會﹐所以接觸比較多。 問︰伍主席﹐你應該是二零零二年上任﹖ 伍廷典︰是。 問︰即九一一發生之後半年左右。你覺得九一一對華埠的影響有多大﹖ 伍廷典︰哦﹐是這樣的。我未上任以前﹐前一任﹐ 即零一年﹐ 九一一時是鍾僑征做中華公所的主席。自從九一一發生之後﹐中華公所做了很多功夫。 問︰你覺得九一一影響華埠那一方面最大﹐ 譬如甚麼行業﹐或者地區﹖ 伍廷典︰九一一以後對華埠影響大啦。自從九一一發生﹐因為封鎖了所有的道路﹐所以影響到﹐整個華埠是癱瘓了。即不能動﹐生意全部沒有得做﹐曾經有一兩個星期。工廠、衣廠最部關門﹐交通又不到﹐即是令失業的人越來越多﹐華埠所有的生意全部都受影響。經過幾個禮拜解了封之後﹐仍然華埠都是一闕不振的﹐生意‥都沒有人來華埠。當時的商家﹐所有商家都苦不堪言。 問︰其實九一一發生後﹐中華公所有沒有統籌其他的團體做一些譬如賑災的服務或計劃﹖ 伍廷典︰這方面﹐由鍾僑征主席﹐零一年﹐鍾僑征主席任內﹐九一一發生﹐中華公所即刻開放我們所有的地方給那些救濟的機構來我們的公所辦事﹐我們是無條件的供應地方。好多慈善機構甚至甚至政府的救濟機構都來中華公所﹐我們在這方面希望儘量幫得政府的亦幫得我們華埠唐人的我們盡力去做。 問︰911對華埠經濟上的打擊有多大﹖有沒有統計過損失的﹖ 伍廷典︰正式的統計就沒有。我想當時一年半年內﹐所有的生意都不行﹐全部﹐不只是個別﹐個個都說要蝕本的。 問︰伍主席﹐911發生的時候你在哪兒﹖ 伍廷典︰911發生時我是在華埠。直至前任主席做了我於911之後的2002年三月份我就接任中華公所主席。我仍然按照上一任主席所做的工作﹐我們再加開放的去做﹐去做。 我接任後﹐我…是這樣…主要是恢復華埠經濟﹐等華埠的經濟復甦是最緊要的最急需要做的第一步。在這方面﹐我就這樣﹐清潔華埠﹐ 第一個﹐希望清潔華埠美化華埠﹐ 希望各方面能夠吸引遊客﹐因為華埠是一個旅遊景點。如果沒有遊客來﹐根本我們講甚麼都沒有用。好像這方面﹐我們儘量去吸引遊客來﹐好像我們舉辦過的的遊行﹐即花車遊行。去年我們做的最成功﹐有二十、三十多萬人來參加我們遊行的活動﹐我們儘量希望吸引多些遊客來﹐只有這樣才能恢復華埠的經濟。 年多以來﹐我們呼籲政府來幫我們鋪路﹐因為唐人街早兩年的路真的是凹凹凸凸不平的﹐行得好不方便﹐曾經呼籲政府為我們鋪路﹐已經完成了﹐於華埠重鋪路﹐開放了其他的街道。現在只有柏路(Park Row)還沒有開放﹐其他的已開了。這幫助華埠不少﹐其次是泊車的問題我們儘量與政府洽商。另一方面﹐我們曾經、已經在做的是牌樓﹐我們想籌建一個中國式、東方色彩的中國式的牌樓﹐在華埠。得到我們善長人翁的捐錢﹐我們的工作亦已經經過第二區、第三社區和曼哈頓區的協助﹐我們可以做。我們最近又請得何鐵基先生幫我們向政府申請劃則各方面﹐這些工作都是為美化華埠﹐即是吸引遊客的。 伍廷典︰我初初在香港的時候﹐因為我有些兄弟有些親戚全部在美國的。我整個家庭就已經在那時全部離開了大陸﹐全部離開大陸。 問︰離開大陸哪兒﹖ 伍廷典︰台山﹐廣東台山﹐我是台山人。57年後﹐我們全部整個家族都離開了台山。我的大佬、幾個大佬、細佬和妹﹐個個來了美國和加拿大。我自己﹐我留在香港﹐因為我又不…我留在香港搞我的教育的事。直至到我在1967、68年的時候﹐香港暴動的時候我已經申請來美國的﹐我的大佬申請我來﹐批准了﹐但我沒有來﹐當時認為來美國沒有用。即是說香港如果生活可以安頓﹐我們不希望再來美國「挨騾仔」。甚至我的大佬、親戚都說︰「你一個教學、辦教育的人來美國無用﹐你不會英文﹐你來只是來挨苦。」亦不主張我來。即1967、68年正是香港暴動的時候﹐批准了﹐我沒有來。直至到73、74年﹐我仍然在香港辦緊‥臨時的在博雅書院在做… 因為我的仔女幾個仔女﹐個個都讀到初中或者高中﹐成三、四個都要連續要上大學﹐因為在7幾年﹐在香港如果要供給幾個仔女上大學﹐經濟是一種沒可能的負擔﹐除了你是富豪啦。就是沒可能的負擔。第二個問題是香港當時的大學位不夠﹐只是一間香港大學和最新的發展的中文大學﹐是兩間而已。以這樣情況下﹐以後仔女需要讀書的是沒可能。以我自己的能力來講我是供不起﹐供不起仔女。在73年、74年之後﹐我有一個女直情要上大學﹐考不到。考不到點﹖以後讀完中學便要做事﹐ 即個個認為都沒有甚麼希望。我決意來美國。生活是另外一件事﹐但主要的是仔女﹐我聽說﹐我當時未知﹐美國如果你讀得書的﹐讀度邊度都有得你讀。只是為著這個理想﹐我就帶著他們來了。 問︰伍主席﹐你來到美國之後﹐現實的生活與你來之前的期望是否一樣﹖ 或者怎樣適應呢﹖ 伍廷典︰我﹐我來﹐我這個人﹐我做甚麼都得。甚至在大陸﹐我耕田我都一樣耕。對這方面﹐我無不想做邊樣﹐沒有放不下甚麼﹐這個我絕對無。我只希望能夠平平穩穩﹐生活上是平穩﹐等仔女受教育。只是這樣。 問︰伍主席﹐你在香港時教書譬如是教甚麼科目或在哪裡教書的呢﹖ 伍廷典︰這樣的﹐我在在一間書院(Bernard) college 做校務主任﹐我是打理行政的。 問︰ok﹐伍主席﹐麻煩你介紹一下中華公所的背景和當初你為甚麼被選為主席的呢﹖ 伍廷典︰是這樣的﹐中華公所已經直至現在已經120年﹐120年的歷史。初初﹐最初的中華公所是台山寧陽會館的人去做主席的。因為點解呢﹐一百年以前來New York的華人﹐百份之99的都是台山人﹐是台山人﹐所以中華公所的事全部 主席﹐和負責在中華公所打的人都是台山人。年年的主席都是由台山人做下去的。後來﹐90年前﹐經過十幾二十年有其他四 ﹐即非台山的 - 好似恩平、開平﹐即不是台山的、甚至第二省的人來﹐來到無理由中華公所只是由台山人做的﹐所以他們組織一個美東聯成公所﹐聯成公所呢﹐以後的輪流做主席﹐以後兩年一屆﹐聯成公所做了兩年﹐輪返給寧陽﹐ 寧陽做兩年又輪返給聯成﹐是這樣。主席的選出是這樣︰兩年輪一次﹐好似我現在做這樣﹐就是02年﹐02開始﹐由寧陽會館選舉候選人出來﹐ 由大會去選- 由84個會員去選主席﹐推舉一定要兩個以上。寧陽會館一定要推舉兩國候選人﹐就由大會選出主席﹐我僥倖在上次大會選出我。換句話說﹐我做完以後輪到美東聯成公所﹐要由他們推舉兩個以上的候選人出來。選主席亦是由84個會員來選﹐今年訂在19號選舉﹐下一屆的主席就會選出來。講到中華公所的組織﹐它是有60個僑團﹐60個僑團﹐60個僑團之外﹐另外有24個議員- 這24個議員內有八個議員是由聯成公所派出來的﹐ 另外8個議員是美東…是寧陽會館派出來。其他的8個議員是由商會派出來﹐即24個議員﹐60個社團﹐這樣構成中華公所的組織。   問︰伍主席﹐麻煩你簡介一下911發生後中華公所的賑災工作﹖有甚麼在進行中﹖ 伍廷典︰我們911之後﹐除了01年年尾做個多月進行的工作﹐我們曾經與政府做了好多功夫。所有那些工作我們全部是無條件為政府做的﹐我們沒有向政府拿到一個經濟上的…全部是我們自己認為做得幾多得幾多﹐我們認為幫得政府幾多得幾多﹐我們無…對這樣我們只是一種協助政府﹐我們對這是無要求的。 問︰但政府應該對譬如 911 賑災撥款… 伍廷典︰賑災的撥款﹐它不是來這裡。即﹐ 有一個75萬的撥了出去﹐但直至現在仍然未成事。 問︰為什麼﹖ 伍廷典︰因為有好多好多﹐技術上的問題尚未解決。維洛貴絲國會議員同我們幫我們申請了75萬給我們做即關於交通的﹐但現在因為技術上的問題好多事情要解決﹐現在未有未滿的結果。 問︰那交通的問題﹐大概是甚麼問題﹖或者是有甚麼要改善﹖ 伍廷典︰這個問題涉及好廣﹐因為涉及整一個下東城﹐如何去解決交通﹐要找專家去做﹐先先做proposal ﹐proposal 叫甚麼？ 伍廷典︰計劃書﹐計劃要找專家去做﹐做好了應該如何去實行﹐才再向政府去申請﹐現在我們還在辦理中。未有結果。 問︰即自從911那時已經申請到現在﹖ 伍廷典︰即那時申請的﹐911以後﹐發展局有一筆款剩下的﹐剩下要撥落去做﹐ 我們去申請﹐它批了75萬﹐但直至現在沒有開始去做。 問︰但你有沒有預計甚麼時候可以正式開始實行的﹖ 伍廷典︰這個﹐我們正在接洽中﹐因為政府的事情﹐有好多支持的問題。 問︰ok, 那伍主席﹐我想問譬如911之後的賑災工作﹐有很多華埠民間團體的參與﹐你覺得整個統籌上或進行上順不順利或者有甚麼忽略的﹖ 伍廷典︰關於這個問題﹐是這樣的。照我看﹐以前﹐不是911以前﹐好耐好耐的以前﹐唐人街是分兩國部份﹐一個﹐就是傳統僑社﹔一個﹐是崇政會、福建公所、華聯會那邊﹐即因為政治上的問題﹐兩方面是格格不相入。你不理我﹐我亦不睬你。甚至有好多問題是對立的。我上任中華公所以後﹐就﹐我有這樣的看法- 為什麼我們華人來到這裡為了些小事你不睬我﹐我又不﹔如果你不團結的時候﹐你們要爭甚麼都是假的﹐我在這裡我出過力。我呼籲好多其他的僑團﹐其他的僑團就﹐在這方面﹐希望在這方面大家合作。ok.   伍廷典︰我在中華公所﹐ 上任了直至現在﹐還差兩個月夠滿兩年了﹐我亦任滿了。我總是感覺得兩年的時間太過短了﹐我自己本身亦做不了甚麼出來。最大的願望﹐我希望僑社一定要擴大我們的團結。無論它是否中華公所的屬下的會員﹐總之是我們的僑胞團結﹐我們都應該一致的。大家﹐你可以有你的自己的意見﹐可以求同存異。同的地方可以儘量去協調去做﹐不同的地方﹐你可以有你的意見﹐我有我的意見。但一定大家要團結﹐要融洽地的團結﹐先﹐才可以爭得…即在美國主流社會上我們才可以爭得到東西﹐你爭你的﹐我爭我的﹐這不是華埠的福利。 問︰伍主席﹐那911過去已經過去兩年多﹐現在剩下的時間﹐你希望華埠有甚麼地方更加需要改善﹐或有甚麼建議應該落實的呢﹖ 伍廷典︰我想在華埠來說﹐我們的牌樓… (錄音帶SIDE B) 伍廷典︰就﹐我亦任滿了﹐我總是感覺得兩年的時間太過短了﹐我自己本身亦做不了甚麼出來。最大的願望﹐我希望僑社一定要擴大我們的團結。無論它是否中華公所的屬下的會員﹐總之是我們的僑胞團結﹐我們都應該一致的。大家﹐你可以有你的自己的意見﹐可以求同存異。同的地方可以儘量去協調去做﹐不同的地方﹐你可以有你的意見﹐我有我的意見。但一定大家要團結﹐要融洽地的團結﹐先﹐才可以爭得…即在美國主流社會上我們才可以爭得到東西。你爭你的﹐我爭我的﹐這不是華埠的福利。 問︰伍主席﹐那911過去已經過去兩年多﹐現在剩下的時間﹐你希望華埠有甚地方更加需要改善﹐或有甚麼建議應該落實的呢﹖ 伍廷典︰我想在華埠來說﹐我們的牌樓…要做。我們已經同各方面接洽過﹐有好多專業的人對我這樣說﹐不要把時間太緊﹐即不要希望一兩年或一年半載可以完成﹐這個時間無可能快的﹐只有慢慢的去做。我希望呢這件事就以後落一下一任或再下一任﹐一路做下去。有一個牌樓呢﹐就﹐唐人街先至有主要的目標係度﹐如果沒有的時候﹐我想不是太好。有一個牌摟在﹐對華埠的經濟、甚麼都好﹐都好有陴益。第一樣要做的是個牌摟﹐第二樣要做的﹐我仍然講我的話﹐ 唐人一定要團結先﹐無論如何情形我們要擴大我們的團結先至有力去發展我們的華埠。 問︰伍主席﹐我知道歷史上華埠的僑團分了好多的黨派﹐你覺得這個情況有沒有些改善的呢﹖ 伍廷典︰以前呢﹐照我所知的以前﹐左派﹐我們所稱的左派與右派是的不相往來﹐甚至或者敵對的。有好多﹐或者右派﹐國民黨那邊的﹐中華民國的慶典或如何的事左派的不會參加﹐甚至春茗﹐去「飲」而已﹐都不參加的。左派舉行的春茗﹐一樣﹐中華民國﹐即我們傳統的僑社都不去參加。我認為﹐呢個問題﹐太過﹐無需要這樣﹐為什麼要這樣呢﹐ 大家都是唐人為什麼要為這個政治﹐你返去講政治﹐你自己返去講。但在唐人﹐華埠來講﹐我們要團結先得﹐我在這方面﹐我亦做過工作﹐即我儘量希望邀請在傳統僑社做的活動﹐邀請華聯那邊的社團來參加﹐好像是福建公所、福建同鄉會﹐華聯總會﹐即梁冠軍先生那個總會。我們儘量邀請他們來做。甚至美化華埠﹐掃街都請他們來﹐掃勿街同掃 East Broadway我們都一起去做﹐大家一起去做亦得他們的好樂意同中華公所合作去做。講到底﹐我總希望唐人一定要團結。 問︰伍主席﹐我想問一下﹐911發生後﹐你覺得華埠接受主流媒體或者政府的重視夠不夠﹖同其他譬如受災的社區比﹖ 伍廷典︰我想照現在來講﹐政府不是很重視我們。我幾時我都講﹐不要話 葡萄吃不到是酸的﹐好多事情政府不是很重視我們。 問︰你覺得原因在那裡﹖ 伍廷典︰即是話我們好多申請﹐想幫政府甚麼﹐都得不到他們有任何的幫助。 問︰其實你有沒有想過原因在那裡﹖譬如華埠社團不夠團結﹖或者﹖ 伍廷典︰不夠團結是其中之一﹐我想我們不能將華埠的東西推廣出去是最大的問題﹐我們一定要將華埠現在的情形全推出到主流社會﹐等主流社會知。如果我們常封閉住﹐就呢個問題是相當嚴重﹐對以後華埠的發展相當有影響。 在過去兩年內我儘量在西人的報紙、媒介我們儘量將華埠推廣出去﹐等人知道下有一個華埠﹐先至…有聲音啦先得﹐如果全沒有聲音﹐對華埠一些聲音都沒有﹐呢個後果真的好壞。 問︰伍主席﹐我想問一下你﹐你會不會覺得有一個印象﹐ 我們華埠的事情主流媒體和政府不夠重視﹖和你覺得有甚麼改善的辦法﹖ 伍廷典︰在這方面來講﹐我的看法是這樣。好多﹐好多意見話我們被歧視。原本其實呢歧視本身來講﹐我們要自己檢討自己。我的看法是這樣︰希望儘量將自己推廣出去﹐不要…話因某一種歧視我們不想去做事。你越歧視我﹐我就越將我自己的事搬出去﹐看看你怎麼做。我想美國的社會都有自由呀﹐有好多事我們可以爭取得到的。 問︰伍主席﹐那你希望下一任的主席做甚麼的工作改善華埠﹖譬如振興華埠911之後﹖ 伍廷典︰即是這樣﹐個人來講﹐我可以講﹐即下一任﹐或者他們有甚麼要做是下一任的主席他們有。全部有主見。我不用。。我希望華埠大家自己團結﹐自己多做工作將華埠推廣出去﹐儘量呢將華埠的經濟做得好一些。 問︰伍主席﹐你離任之後﹐你會做甚麼呢﹖你怎麼打算呢﹖ 伍廷典︰退休啦。 問︰退休。你幾歲啦﹐今年﹖ 伍廷典︰七十多啦。 問︰七十多。 問︰伍主席﹐我想請你講一下﹐你們中華公所關於振興呢個華埠小商業的計劃﹖ 伍廷典︰我們曾經向政府申請一個小型商業貸款的小組﹐就亦得到政府的批准﹐我們現在由小組﹐我們一個﹐ 一個小組去負責進行。呢個小型商業貸款是有些講座呀幫助小型商業做貸款工作﹐現在我們在進行中﹐在做。 問︰伍主席﹐這個計劃為期幾耐﹖同…有甚麼﹖ 伍廷典︰這個計劃是一年。 問︰是包括﹖ 伍廷典︰即包括我們所有的講座和幫些小型商業去申請。 [完] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tin Din Ng 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Winifred C. Chin Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-01-08 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation writer/garment union Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is January 8th, 2004. I am sitting in the Brooklyn, in the home of Winifred. Just for the record, would you tell us your full name? Chin: My name is Winifred Chun-Hing Chin, and I am a visiting scholar with NYU, Asian-Pacific-American Studies Program. And I also am an adjunct assistant professor at NYU for Far Eastern Civilizations. Q: Okay, we’re going to start in reverse, and go back to your childhood, and if you could just tell me where you were born, and where your parents came from. Chin: I was born in Brooklyn, and spent most of my life in Brooklyn. My parents are from China, my mother from Hong Kong, and my father from Guangzhou, in China, in Guongdong Province. Q: And when did they come to America? Chin: My father came in 1934. He was a paper son, as described in the book Paper Son, and he went back to China, he went back to Hong Kong in 1949 and married my mother, and my mother came in 1950, and they settled in Brooklyn. Q: And why did they choose to come to New York? Chin: Well, my father came first because the situation in China was economically very poor. And at that time it was still the exclusion era, south China, the south China economy was failing, and like other people who wanted to make a better life for themselves and to be able to send money back home, he came to America. With my mother, my mother, in her case, she came from a very well-to-do family in Hong Kong, but during the Japanese occupation they lost everything, so right after the war, her parents were eager to marry off as many daughters as they could, and in her case it was three daughters and four sons in her family, so two of the daughters were quickly married to Gold Mountain, Chinese-Americans, so she came here for that reason. Q: And how did you father come to America? Chin: He was a paper son, which means that he purchased a paper, saying that he was the son of a Chinese-born American---I’m sorry, he was the son of a American-born Chinese. And there’s a whole history about these, which is in my book, Paper Son. And basically it started off in the exclusion era, which was between 1882 and 1943, there were Chinese people here in the mid-1800s working on the railroads, but soon after that, the American government for economic, for racial reasons, decided they did not want any Chinese-Amer----Chinese in America anymore. So there were some Chinese who were already here, and had children here, and these were native born Americans. When you are American-born, you can go anywhere in the world and still bring your child to America, even if your child was born somewhere else. So these native-born Americans, who were Chinese, were your first generation of American-born Chinese. They were not allowed, by the same laws, by the exclusion laws, they were not allowed to marry outside of their race. So if they wanted to marry at that time, they had to go back to China, they married. And because they were born in America they could come here, whereas other Chinese people could not. Meaning they could not bring their wives here. The paper son started with that situation. They would go to China, get married, come back to America, and nine months later report that they had children, a son usually, and the government would issue a paper for the son to come over, because by virtue of being a son of a native-born American, that son can come, whereas the wife cannot. So those papers, designating this child to be the son of XYZ American-born Chinese, was able to come, but instead of bringing the son over, and there was really no way that the government knew whether or not you had a son, you would just sell that paper in the open market, in the black market, and anyone who wanted to come to America waited eighteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years, came over, by purchasing that paper. And when you purchased that paper you memorized everything. You said, I am the son of so-and-so, who was born in America, my mother was born in China, I was born on such-and-such a date. You memorized all this information, and when you passed through immigration, if you answered all the questions correctly, they would say, “Okay, you are that person,” and you were an American citizen. And these were called “paper sons,” and my father was a paper son. Q: So your father purchased one of these papers? Chin: Yes. Q: Okay, so your grandparents were not Chinese in America at the time. Your father was the first generation to come to America. Chin: Yes. Q: So when he first came was 1930, you said? Chin: 1934. Q: 1934. And how old was he at the time? Chin: According to his paper, because he had to come under the pretense of a different person, he had to pretend that he was this person that the paper said he was. So according to the paper, he was nineteen years old. Q: But you don’t know--- Chin: We don’t really know how old he was. Q: And then how long did he stay here before he went back to marry your mother? Chin: He, well he went back in 1949. He was in the U.S. Navy. I have pictures of that, if you’d like. Q: We could show that, later on, if we get to that. So your father went, just lived in America by himself, between the age of, supposedly nineteen, until 1949 when he went back to Hong Kong---- Chin: Well, he had his friends that he knew from the village. From his village in China. And it was more than just living by himself here. You know, in those days, in the ‘30s, because during the exclusion era, women were not----Chinese women were not allowed to come here, even if you married them, they had to stay in China. Chinatown was basically a bachelor community at that time. So he had the support, I guess you might say, of the community, and so, and he, they always, for the most part they came from the Toisan village, and they knew each other, so they were distant cousins, or they called each other cousins and so he had family support in that sense. Q: I’m sorry, did you say, “from the Toisan village”? Chin: Right, Toisan. Q: Okay, so then he went back to Hong Kong, where your mother is from, and they met there— Chin: Right. Q: And was it difficult for him to get your mother to come back to America? Chin: No. I imagine that if it were earlier, it would have been difficult. But because my mother was from a very prominent family. Her father was an English teacher, and her mother was a mid- wife. The family owned a car, went to private schools. So it was very, it was very affluent in those days. But after the war, they had lost everything, and coming to America seemed like the ideal place to be. Q: What do you think they expect, coming to America? Chin: Most people who come to America think that America is streets paved with gold. You know, we call it in Chinese “Gold Mountain,” basically because in the days of ’49, 1849, there was gold discovered in the mountains out west. So there’s this concept, there’s this idea that you come to America, and gold is to be found everywhere. My father had warned her in advance that coming to America was not Gold Mountain, that it would be laundry work, he would not require her to do much, but that, but don’t expect a silver palace. Q: But yet your mother accepted that, having come from an affluent background? Chin: She accepted it because they lost everything during the war. And what money they had left---every, the Japanese took everything of value, the car, the---- [another voice noting background noise problems, cross talk about the recording] Q: So in 1949 your father went back to Hong Kong to marry your mother and take her back to America. Did you mother have any objections to coming to a place where it was going to be a lot of hard work? Chin: She didn’t object basically because there was nothing in Hong Kong for her. The Japanese had taken everything, anything of value, and what money there was was reserved for the boys in the family to go to school. Her brother, her older brother became a doctor. Another became a pharmacist, a younger sister who was more pampered than the older sisters became a nurse, and so, there was really nothing for the older girls. And my mother was the third oldest in the family, so she looked forward to coming, and she knew that it would be hard work, and she thought that it was a better future than if she stayed in Hong Kong anyway. Q: And did both of your parents speak English at this time? Chin: No. My father knew a little. My mother knew a little because her father taught English, but they were not fluent. They could not get jobs in mainstream American society. Q: So, as a young couple in a foreign land, where did they go when they first arrived in New York City? Chin: They lived in Chinatown, because my mother’s older sister had already married a Gold Mountain man, so they lived in Chinatown for awhile, and then they moved to Brooklyn. Q: Why did they do that? Why did they not choose to stay in Chinatown? Chin: My father knew about Chinatown since 1934. Well, actually since 1936. He arrived in ’34 in Boston, but he was in New York’s Chinatown by ’36, and he knew about the gang wars. He knew about the Tongs, and he didn’t want us to grow up in Chinatown, in that type of community. Q: So when were you born, if you don’t mind my asking? [laughter] Chin: I was born in 1952. Q: In Brooklyn. Chin: Yes. Q: Where in Brooklyn? Chin: In Bushwick. Q: Oh, okay. Okay. So describe for us your childhood in Brooklyn. Was there a lot of Chinese where you grew up at the time? Did you feel, strange, or different? Chin: There were virtually no Chinese in Bushwick. We had about two families, within---I remember one family called the Wongs, and that story is also in the book, Paper Son, they lived about a block and half away from us, and another family a few blocks away from us. And that was it for the Chinese families. There was one Japanese family. Most of the Chinese families that lived in Brooklyn had a life such that it was a routine to go to New York’s Chinatown, every Sunday. My father’s laundry was open seven---six days a week, and on Sunday we went into Chinatown. By the time he learned English he became interpreter at the True Light Lutheran Church on Worth Street in Chinatown. So that was our social life; in the fifties in Brooklyn we were very sheltered. You know. Of course, that had to do with the era, too, it was the era of McCarthyism, and we were Chinese and it was not very popular then, to be Chinese, so we led very isolated lives, except for---socially---except for one day a week going to Chinatown, and we would go to Church, and then afterwards we’d go visit people. Sometimes we went to my mother’s shop, during the summertime when we had no school. Q: Regarding school, what was that like, being one of very few Asian kids? Were you outcast, were you treated in any different way? Chin: No, essentially, a lot of fun [laughs]. We were very, we were different. And I think at that time Asians had a very, we were known for being very diligent, very studious. My brother and I did very well in school, and, you know, we always ended up teachers’ pets, and there was no outcast---none of that at all. You know, we were well-received. Q: So your parents never at any point considered moving back to Hong Kong or going back to China. Chin: No. No. My father, in fact, never even went back for a visit, since 1934. He hadn’t left the country except during World War II, when he was in the U.S. Navy. Never went to China. He always said that he would, he wanted to show me his old village, but he never did. And my mother has only one sister left in Hong Kong. She, my mother has gone back about three or four times, to Hong Kong, and she also went to China on a tour, a three-week tour of China. But, um, she has never considered moving back there permanently, to retire. Q: So, growing up, your father, early on opened a laundry shop? Chin: Yes. Q: And what did you mother do at this time? Chin: Ah, when I was three—but by 1955, when my brother was five and and I was three, she started work at the shops, at the sweatshops in Chinatown, the garment factories. She had learned from women in church that there is work in Chinatown, and so once my brother started school, she would take my brother to school, which was conveniently next to the subway station, and then she would just go onto the subway and go to Chinatown to work. And I was three, and I stayed home with my father at the laundry. Q: Did your mother work in Hong Kong? Chin: No. Q: So this was her first job. Chin: That was her first job. Q: So you grew up in a laundrymat--- Chin: Yes. Q: What was that like? Chin: Well, you know, when you’re a child, you don’t realize any difference. Ah, it, you know, we just thought that ah, you know, we had known other Chinese children who grew up in the back of laundries, so that was perfectly normal. We knew that other people had stores. I mean, there, in Bushwick, there were a whole street of storefront buildings with two flights above, and you know, one Italian family that we were very close with, or very friendly with, you know, ran a grocery store in the front and lived in the back. Next door was a candy store, and they lived in the back and also one flight above. So I don’t think we---you know, meaning my brother and I---thought that it was unusual. It was---our laundry was another store. Q: So you didn’t compare yourself to, say, your Caucasian-American friends, and say, “Well, why am I in the back room of a laundrymat?” Chin: No, cause they were in the back of a grocery [laughter]. No, we didn’t do that. It was a working class neighborhood, Italians, Irish, and so everybody---some of our best friends lived in the back of stores. Q: Where was your father’s shop located? Chin: In Bushwick. Q: Oh, it was in Bushwick. Okay. So your mother worked in Chinatown, took your brother to school there---- Chin: Right. Q: And then--- Chin: Took my brother to school in Brooklyn, and then went on the train to Chinatown. Q: Now, was she a trained--- Chin: Seamstress? Q: Seamstress, before? Chin: No, she learned on the job. Q: Why did she choose to be a seamstress? Chin: That was one of the few jobs open to women. You know, it was---it’s also, it’s very interesting because it was also very, it was a growth---you know, the Chinatown garment industry was growing at that time, and it starts with, you know, the garment shops used to be in midtown in the twenties where FIT is, Fashion Institute, and they were being, the rent was going up, it was in the city, so they, the bosses of those shops decided to look for cheaper space downtown, meaning Chinatown. Chinatown was cheap at that time. So they opened up, they set up shops in Chinatown, in the ‘50s, and that was when my mother found out about them, and they advertised for Chinese women who were, who after the war were allowed to come and join their husbands, and then, you know, these Chinese women would work in the shops, but, then of course they still---You know, Chinese women, as most women, always sewed for their own children at home, so it was not, you know, it was something that they probably knew how to do, you know, instinctively. Now they did it in shops for other people to sell. Because they still had to cook---you know, even though they sewed outside of the home rather than inside the home. So, after they sewed, they still had to shop, so you need grocery stores, and then your Chinese community started building up. You know, before it was basically a bachelors’ community. Q: Alright, give me a sense of your, kind of Chinese-slash-American life. At home, what language did you speak? Chin: We speak Chinese. Q: You spoke Cantonese at home? Chin: Yes. Q: And then, outside, obviously you spoke English, so you never spoke English at home? Chin: No. Q: Was that something that your parents tried to enforce? Chin: Yes. My father thought that we should know Chinese. Again, this is during the ‘50s, the McCarthy era, when the government was focusing on Chinese people who may be Communist. You know, my father was one of the people who may have been deported, for his writing. And he thought that if we ever were deported, it’s best to know your language, too. So, we, for awhile we weren’t sure if we were going to be deported, so if we ever went back to China, it would be an advantage, to our advantage to know the language. Q: Was that common at the time, because I meet so many Chinese-Americans, who really don’t speak Chinese at all. Chin: I meet a lot of them who don’t speak Chinese, also. Most of the people I know who don’t speak Chinese wonder why their parents never taught them. [laughs] I guess it’s the home education, home values. Q: So on weekends you went to Chinatown, you said. Give us a sense, a flavor of Chinatown at the time. How big was the community, and was there a sense of a Chinese community in Chinatown at the time? Chin: Yes. There was a---it was much more vibrant than it is now. You know, you had a lot of children---I mean, you have children now, but it was a developing community, and that’s what made it different. Because the ‘50s, you know, before the ‘50s you didn’t have that Chinatown, you had a bachelor community. You know, that was the exclusion era. You know, women were not---Chinese people weren’t allowed to come. If they came, if they married back home, they weren’t allowed to bring their wives. So by the ‘50s, you had little children running around, and it was very different. Q: And did everybody seem to get along, the Chinese, the Italians, and other different immigrants? Chin: I don’t recall the Italians. It wasn’t until much later, in the ‘70s, that Chinatown expanded to Little Italy. And of course there were turf wars because of it. But back in the ‘50s, Chinatown was very small, very----You know, my mother would bring us there. Sometimes she would shop and tell us to sit on the stoop, and she would go shopping, and we would just sit there and play with the other kids who were sitting there. And she could come back an hour later and we would still be there. I don’t think mothers do that anymore. So you have that type of thing. And of course this was also before the gang wars heightened. You know, by 1965 the immigration laws changed, and so you had a lot of gang, a lot more gang wars, and it was just a totally different scene from when everything seemed very ideal. Q: So give us an idea of the working conditions of the sweatshops at the time. So, how many do you think were around at that time, when your mother worked? Chin: In the ‘50s, there were probably in the teens. Less than, less than twenty in the ‘50s. Q: And the owners were mostly Chinese? Chin: Ah, Jewish, some were Chinese. I’m not sure what the breakdown is, but there were very few because it just started. You know, these shops were closed in the twenties along the, in the midtown, and they had just moved to Chinatown, so everything was new and there weren’t that many. It was by piecework. So you were paid for your output. And it was very, ah, it was survival of the fittest. So if you didn’t produce and the boss saw that, you know, well, what are you doing sitting at the sewing machine, I can give it to someone who can produce more. So if you were old, or you didn’t learn as quickly, you lost your place at the sewing machine, you got kicked out. Q: So what could your mother make, on average, a day? Chin: A day? Ah, not much, probably seven, ten dollars a week. At that time. You know, in the ‘50s. Q: So, that plus your father’s laundry business was enough to give your family a comfortable living, or--- Chin: Not comfortable, minimal. But, you know, we were rich in other ways, though, you know. You know, we learned Chinese, which a lot of others, other Chinese-Americans didn’t. We have a richer Chinese heritage. In that sense we were almost, more than comfortable. But financially, our physical comforts were not that great. Q: Was your mother glad to have to work, or was it a very difficult job, something she enjoyed at all? Chin: I think it got her away from the house, and she liked that. I can imagine going crazy in the back of a laundry with two kids. So I think she, and I know she was definitely glad to have the extra money to buy things, to buy toys for us and little extra things for herself. Q: So how many hours a day would she work? Chin: At that time, the shops were open like twelve, fifteen hours a day. She didn’t work---she would leave early in the morning when she took my brother to school, and then she would come back many times after I was asleep. And then at one point she stopped because I didn’t know who she was. [laughs] Q: Wow. Do you look back and feel like you missed a lot of time with your mother, or do you--- Chin: I probably missed a lot of time with her, but I had a very good relationship with my father, and, you know, Paper Son is based on my father’s story. We wrote the book together, you know, I published it after he died, but---so, you know, I missed one parent, but I had a relationship with my other, with my father, and since my father died my mother and I have been much closer. Q: I know that you’ve done a lot of studies and work on the garment union in Chinatown, so give us kind of a background of how this came about, how was the union formed? Chin: Well, as I said earlier, the shops didn’t move into Chinatown until the 50s, when they were being priced out of midtown, and there were probably only about twenty, less then twenty, throughout the ‘50s. In the ‘60s, they gradually grew because families were allowed to come over, but the major change was in ’65 when the change in immigration laws took place, and then you had mass immigration. But the shops themselves started to get organized by ’55, probably, the first shop probably started in ’53 or ’54, and by ’55 the union, who was then under Jay Mazur, who was assistant manager of Local 23-25, and that local was mostly Chinese, mostly Chinese at that time. He was the one that started a Chinese newsletter. He had to hire someone from San Francisco to do the newsletter by hand. They broadcast by radio into the shops. Everything they had in English they had to translate into Chinese, to let Chinese workers be aware that there were benefits to be had as workers. And that started in the ‘50s. My mother joined the union herself in ’57. So basically they went out on an all-out campaign to notify Chinese workers, sending representatives into the shops to tell workers that the union is there, you pay a fee, and you’ll get medical coverage, you’ll get, you know, holidays, vacations, and since my mother knew a little English, she was able to help interpret for the representatives who came up. They call them “business agents” now, when you’re in charge of that specific shop. They had a different term for them before. Q: Was there any threats from, say, the shop owners to tell the workers not to join the union, was there any pressure? Chin: In the beginning there weren’t, but I think when the shop owners realized that they also had to pay part of the benefits, like if Social Security, not Social Security, well, yeah, Social Security, if it was reported pay rather than cash, you know, if the worker earned retirement FICA, then the shop owner, the employer also had to pay part of it, and not only to the government in the taxes, but also to the union, the union medical benefits. And at one point, at a certain point, when they got tired of paying these things, then they started telling the workers, “Oh, don’t join the union, they just want to take your money.” And so, there was conflict, which was what led to the rally in 1982, that mass strike in Chinatown. In fact, this is one of the early pictures. Q: Which one is your mother? Can you point to her? Chin: This is my mother. This is probably early ‘70s. Q: And what is your mother’s full name? [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO] Chin: Wing Fong Chin. And she was the shop representative, which meant that she helped her colleagues to, to get union, to fill out papers, if they had to pay union dues, she collected all the dues, she was willing to make the trip uptown, or not uptown, to midtown, and she helped them to get all the paperwork done, because most of her colleagues didn’t speak a word, and she didn’t speak that much, but she knew enough to help out. Q: So was it role that she volunteered for, or kind of just---- Chin: My mother, you know, in 1955, and when she started work, she was probably, well, she was in her mid-twenties, mid- to late-twenties, so in today’s words, she was a, what do you call it, she was ambitious. She was young. And so, she was anxious to make more money. And so, by piecework, you know, that means that if you are sewing one strap, they might give you a penny. But if she found that another shop gave you two pennies, you know, for sewing one, then she would go to this other shop, and because there were so few shops at that time, you know, within the year or two she had covered all the shops. So you had these union representatives coming to the shops, telling workers, “Join the union, you’ll get more benefits, you’ll get medical, and vacation and sick pay.” So every shop they went to, eventually they saw my mother’s face, and they offered her the role of being shop representative. And so she would bring the problems of the shop to the union. Q: Did you mother formally study English after she came to America? Chin: No. She learned some on the job. She would make speeches for the union, and of course the union would write them out for her, she rehearsed them, she learned from there----a lot of times she relied on me, and I would look over the speech, tell her what it says, and if there was something wrong, she would say, “Oh, no,” and she would correct it. So she learned on the job again. Like her sewing. Q: So what were the major conflicts at the time, between the union, the workers, and the shop owners? I know you talked about it briefly a little while ago, but what was the union aiming, what was their goal? Chin: The union---the goal of the union was for better working conditions. You know, these women worked from seven o’clock in the morning---my mother did not, but she knew that the shops were open at seven in the morning, and women who lived in Chinatown would be there at seven in the morning, working there until midnight. Q: But that was because of the shop owners demanded that, or because you get paid piece, and therefore the more you work---- Chin: You got paid by piece. Right. It was very incentive-oriented. The more you worked, the more you got paid. Q: And because the pay was so low, therefore everybody had to work so much, so long, to get a certain amount of money. Chin: And the union, one of the goals of the union was to set a minimum wage, so that, you know, that piece work, being paid by piece work is demoralizing. You know, this is what you’re worth, you can sew twenty straps, here’s twenty cents. Whereas the union tried to follow American labor standards, with a minimum wage, with a nine-to-five. It was, you know, they had punch cards---time cards rather, where they punched in and out. Ah, they wanted to---and they would check. You know, if the union signed up members there, then the shop, also had to join. You know, if you were a union member you could not work for a non-union shop. And so the boss had to pay dues, too. And the workers were---and so the boss and the workers were unionized, and the bosses were required, they were expected rather, to keep their part of the agreement, you know, that there would be a minimum wage, there would be nine-to-five, you know, workers clock in, clock out, that they would get their holiday pays, their sick pays, and certain other benefits which have changed and increased over the years. Q: So at what point did you mother switch over from a piece-by-piece payment to getting an hourly minimum wage? Chin: That is something that in theory happened, I don’t know when, but in practice never did happen. Even now you find piece work, so---there was, there were time cards and I remember as a child when we were on vacation from school we would go to the factory with my mother, and there would be these punch, time cards with the time machines, and we would go there early in the morning, and my mother would start working immediately. Come nine o’clock the boss would tell the kids, “Okay, punch in your mother’s---“ and everybody punched in their mother’s. Five o’clock we punched everybody out, and then everybody just continued working anyway. And then, they got paid by the piece, they worked the longer hours, got paid a little more, and when the union officials reviewed the time cards and how much you got paid, and they say, “Gee, you worked nine to five, how come you only got, how come you got so little?” Then the worker would---you know, they would spot check, they didn’t check everybody. But then the worker who happened to be picked would just say, “Well, I left in the middle of the day, I didn’t really do nine to five, I had to leave to pick up my son because he was sick,” and they, you know, they made excuses for that. They never, in practice, it never was minimum wage. Q: So your mother accepted that, even though she was a union member, kind of went along with the system, seems like everybody went along with the system, and one way to please a union as well as to have a little bit more benefit than to not belong in the union---- Chin: Right, because there were benefits, you know, when you come in, you know, most of these women are from the countryside. They were not from Hong Kong for the most part, they were from agricultural, from the country where they worked the fields. You know, to have a, to have shoes, not to be barefoot in working the fields in the country, to have a sewing machine in front of you, was already progress. The concept of unions is not something inherently Chinese. So, joining the union, minimum wage didn’t mean anything to the women either. I don’t---I’m not sure that many of them really understood it. But they knew that they were getting health benefits. What could be greater than that? They got some vacation pay. And so, a lot of the women never really, ah, never really complained about the piecework. Q: But what did it mean for your mother, and your family? Did it make a difference for your livelihood? Chin: We had, I guess at that stage we had extra toys. You know. You know, there are people who say that it was child labor---another thing that the union did not permit was for children to be in the shop because there were machines, and you can very easily hurt yourself. Some girls came up with their mothers and they helped them sew. I helped my mother sew a few times. When she made these suspenders, these straps, she fed them through a tube and inverted them, and we helped her in that way, and, but that was called child labor also. But, you know, when you’re eight, ten years old, you don’t think of it. We would help everybody, to make more money. And if we---we had this game, that, you know, let’s see who can invert more straps, to turn them right side out. And, you know, it was a game to us. And then if the union happened to knock on the doors, we all rushed into the bathroom. In one case we were all sent down the fire escape. [laughs] Q: And did you, at any point, think that the working conditions your mother worked under were appalling, or bad, or---- Chin: You know, it never occurred. But you know, children, again, go through such circumstances that they don’t, their resilience is so strong they don’t think that it’s bad. You know, even when I look back, I remember doing some of that work, but I never thought of it as child labor. You know, especially in the Chinatown shops, you know, if I were in South America working twelve hours, and that twelve hours, like some South American children do, in Ecuador, in Mexico, where American garments are exported to be made now, that is real child labor. But what we were doing, was, was a game. But the union did consider it unhealthy for us to be there, for children to be there. Q: And even after acquiring more English skills, your mother never thought of switching fields, or your father, also? Chin: No. My father worked in a laundry all his life. But, you know, he was a writer. He wrote poetry. He published. He had other things in mind. And when business was slow, he would write, he would read, so he was never---he was motivated to write, he’s published hundreds of poems in Chinese. Some of them are translated in the book, Paper Son, but he was never motivated to learn English to get, just to get a better job. You know, he knew his language, he worked with his language, and he was good in it. Same with my mother. She, as far as my mother was concerned, this was a job. She wanted to make more money to help out with the bills, to have extra for toys and luxuries, and that was her goal. But, very simple for those days. For post-war attitude. It was just having a happy family. And again, after what she’d been through with the Japanese during World War II, she wasn’t, you know, you’re talking about a different era. You know, she was happy to be in the home peacefully. She was ah, you know, you compare it with today’s woman, she would be called unambitious. But, you know, considering the times, you know, she was very content. And she did actually make her own way up the union. She, you know, from the shop representative she became chairperson of the board at Local 23-25. Q: Now, how many members are we talking about, Local 23-25? Chin: Now? Q: Then, at that time. Chin: Then, I don’t know. At the height, okay, which was about in the late ‘70s, 1980, 1982, about 20,000 members. And they all went on strike. In fact, these are strike photos. This was a rally held in Columbus Park, and this is my mother, handing out caps and buttons, telling women not to work because the bosses refused to sign the three-year contract for better wages and more days off, you know, other benefits. And so, this is before the rally and she’s handing out caps to everybody. And when the rally started, she was one of the spokespeople on behalf of the workers. Q: What were your feelings towards her, as an activist? Chin: I was very proud of her. You know, one of the things that my mother did was---well, my brother and I knew that she probably couldn’t sit in the back of a laundry all her life. And we kind of felt bad that she was just sewing every day. And then when this extra activity at the union started, we were very happy for her. This was at NYU. And this was the annual memorial service at the Triangle Shirtwaist fire building. Q: And when she spoke, she always spoke in English? Chin: Ah, depending on the situation. Depending on the audience. At the rally, when the workers went on strike, she spoke Chinese because there were 20,000 Chinese workers. You know, a memorial for the Triangle Shirtwaist, held, and they knew that the New York Times would be there, she read a speech in English. Q: Now, was it difficult to get women to join the union at the time? Chin: No. It was, it’s difficult to get them to join now. At that time, when you---In the ‘50s, you had less than twenty shops. By the time you got to your ‘60s, early ‘70s, you had 150, 200. And of course the union was more active. It had to be, to cover all the shops. By the time you get to the late ‘70s, the union was onto all the violations, because every time they knocked on the door, it took time to open. I remember going to visit my mother at the shop, and my mother said, “Knock one, stop, knock twice,” and then the boss would open the shop and let us in. They weren’t supposed to work on weekends. But if anyone knocked otherwise, they would not open the doors. So the union was onto all the violations, and in the late ‘70s, I think the middle or late “70s, they got the U.S. Department of Labor to come and look at situations, and it was well-advertised at that time, there were articles all over the place about sweatshop violations, and they called them, and that was where the term “sweatshop” started, they were no longer garment factories. They were called sweatshops by the late ‘70s, and there was increasing pressure on the bosses to correct these violations. And it was costing the bosses. So by the ‘70s the bosses didn’t want to join the union. It was, the union was good for the women, and some of the men, but it was the bosses who didn’t want it. And so by 1982, when you had some 500, 550 shops and 20,000 workers, you had a mass strike, you know, ‘cause the bosses refused to sign that union contract. The contract was signed every three years. The bosses refused to sign. They were betting that Chinese women are going to work. You know, they opened the---they wanted women to come to work. They wanted women to come to work, and they counted on the reputation that Chinese people work hard. We’re not going to go on strike. You know, Chinese people don’t strike. If there’s work, they’re going to do it, because you know, they’re used to starvation in China. You know, if there’s work, you have to work. Q: But by the ‘70s, who were most of the owners? Were they Chinese, or---- Chin: By then, there were Chinese workers, also--- Q: No, owners. Chin: Oh, yes, Chinese owners as well. And the Jewish population of owners phased out. And that also made one of the differences. The Chinese owners would play up their being Chinese, they would say, “PHRASE IN CANTONESE (translates to “we’re all Chinese”)” you know, “Don’t listen to that union.” Q:---“We’re all Chinese.” Chin: Right. We’re all Chinese. We’re on the same side, and they would hire family, you know, or hire your sister or hire your daughter, she needs a part-time job. So everything was family. They played on the Chinese concept of family being all together. And so by the time, and this was the late ‘70s, and you had your Chinese entrepreneurs coming over, and they had a little more money than your past population of Chinese coming over, you know, and, so they would play up that part and by ’82 they said, “We’re not signing the contract. Come to work.” And they thought that Chinese women, because we’re all family, were going to go to work. And the women proved them wrong. They went on strike. And that was that rally, those rally pictures that I showed you--- Q: And what was the result of this strike? Chin: That, eventually they signed the contract again, with better wages, and more days off, more medical coverage. I don’t know offhand that particular contract, but every time there’s a contract there are better, you know, there’s more that the workers benefit by. Q: So the union won, pretty much. Chin: Yeah, right. They had, it was all over the papers. They held a mass rally in Columbus Park. They had a dragon, they had a priest, before, you know, to bless the rally, before the whole rally started. Then, talking about what the union does for workers and giving a history of the union and how far it’s come, they urged, you know, bosses to sign that contract, members, “Don’t go to work,” and they marched throughout Chinatown with the dragon, and that started in the morning, by noontime about 90 percent of the shops had signed up. Because they realized that, you know, if the union tells them “don’t work,” they’re not going to work. And that was something they didn’t expect. They expected that Chinese women will work if you give them work. Q: Let’s talk about you for a minute. As a child, did you expect to go as far as you did in education? Chin: Well, I don’t consider myself having gone that far in education. I have my master’s, I started a PhD, but I dropped the PhD program because my father had written his memoir and I was torn between doing a thesis, a PhD thesis and publishing a book, and you know, helping him to write it and edit it and publish, and I, you know, I can’t have it all. I dropped the PhD, I was happy with my master’s, I knew that I could teach, you know, with a master’s, and I had been told that a PhD is important, depending---is important to teaching depending on what area you’re going into. I had also been told, you know, if you publish a book, and you keep, and I have a second book, that if you keep writing that is as good as any PhD. Maybe not, maybe not in research, you know, maybe not in teaching PhD courses, but it certainly, in my purposes of working with freshmen, sophomores, you know, with undergraduates, it’s good enough, and I keep up, I keep up my research, and so, so academically, so degree-wise, I haven’t gone that far, but I’m very happy with the things that I learned in my research. Q: But there was never a doubt that you would one day end up as a seamstress like your mother. Chin: Oh, no. Q: Why was that? Chin: I think my father inculcated the thought in both of us, well, maybe not so much in my brother. My brother had to go into something practical. He’s an engineer, but for a girl, my father was always old-fashioned: “You can study anything you want, because you’re not the major income-earner. But whatever you study, be good at it, and you’ll always have a job, you can always teach it.” And so I majored in philosophy, actually, and then I went into Asian philosophy [Should I repeat it for the noise?] and I went into Asian philosophy, and ah, and I’ve always enjoyed it. And so, so I never once thought that I would be a seamstress. There were times when I didn’t know what I would do with a philosophy degree, but I enjoyed it. And I teach. Q: So in your research, give us like a brief sketch of how the garment industry has changed in Chinatown. You said in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s was the peak. As much as 20,000 workers--- Chin: ---dwei (right)--- Q: ---five hundred sweatshops--- Chin: ---right--- Q: ---and then what happened? When did it decline? Chin: Well, that was 1982, when the 20,000 workers went on strike, roughly five to six hundred workshops. And that’s an estimate, because one of the tricks of the trade, if you were going to open a garment factory, was that you would open it up, it would quickly change hands, sell it to a relative, and then change the name so that the union can’t catch up with you and say, you know, “You’re supposed to be, you’re supposed to join the union.” Then you get away from the union, you get away from the taxes, and you kept switching all the time. So that’s why these figures are roughly five to six hundred shops, and we don’t know for sure. And that was basically the heyday. Since then, you know, not just to get away from the union, but also to get away from the rising rents in Chinatown, because the real estate prices boomed and the same things that happened to these shops, to the Jewish shop owners in midtown, causing them to move to Chinatown for lower rents, this same situation is happening to Chinese shop owners, causing them to close up their shops and move to Sunset Park, to Queens, to Borough Park, and that’s the situation with Manhattan’s Chinatown. That they’re moving out of Manhattan. Right now, there are probably about, or after 9/11, three months afterwards, the New York Times reported that they had, there were roughly one hundred and forty-six shops left. I just talked to my mother briefly, and asked her if she had any idea, and she said roughly one hundred, one fifty. I doubt that it’s one fifty, because things have only gotten bad. So three months after 9/11 it was 146, so today probably a hundred shops. Q: So, prior to September 11, what do you think, say the max? Chin: The max was in 1982, with five hundred, five fifty shops, maybe. Q: But, from ’82 to September 11 is quite a few years. The garment industry had been in decline. Chin: It had been in decline because of imports. You know, there was NAFTA, the free trade agreement, and the exporting all the jobs, and importing a lot----you know, you export the clothing jobs, and then you get cheap clothing made in China, made in, you know, Mexico, and you get that import. You get that type of trade. And that took away a lot of jobs. Right now, I did interviews last spring in April, 2003, and the estimate, depending on who you talk to, was that about 85-90 percent of our clothing is imports. So it was in decline. The last year they cele---the government just celebrated the tenth anniversary of the trade, of the Free Trade Agreement. So that was since 1993. Last year was the tenth anniversary. So this all happened before 2000, before 9/11 2001. And it was because of imports. 9/11 was just the last, was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Q: And how did that.--- [END TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO; BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE] Q: We left off with the decline of the garment industry in Chinatown. So why don’t we pick up from that? You had said that even prior to September 11 of 2001 the garment industry was already in decline in Chinatown--- Chin: Because of imports, and so, then, NAFTA, the free trade agreements didn’t help. So even by the 80s, you know, your height was 1982, even by the mid-80s, imports were at that time about 50 percent already. And then they signed NAFTA in 1993, they just celebrated the ten year, tenth anniversary, and imports now are about 90 percent, 85-90 percent. And by some people that I spoke to, that I interviewed, expect that by 2005, by next year, that it’ll be 100 percent imports. Q: Back in the days when your mother was very active in the union, at the peak of the sweatshops, were most of those products sold in America, or were they exported at all? Chin: No, they were sold in America, and that was part of, part of the situation, and it’s nothing really that simple. There’s no one answer to it all. You know, in the 50s, in the 60s, you didn’t have brand names, you didn’t have your Calvin Klein stuff, your Gap, or, you may have had names, but they were very few, and most you had these stores that sold garments, like Lerner’s, Joyce Lesley, you know, a garment, something similar to what you would find along 14th Street in Union Square these days, where you’re a store, and they sold all types of garments. But as the specialty garments, now you have a big gap, you have a big industry in the Gap clothing, in Calvin Klein, and Gap decided to send their stuff, I think they send it to South America, to Central American, you know, Calvin Klein, and these big names won’t use a little Chinatown sweatshop. So they’re the ones who, you know, did a lot of injury to the garment industry before even 9/11. And so you had those stores, you know, and other brand names making their clothing outside of the country because it was cheaper. Q: But how did 9/11, you were saying earlier, was like a final straw for the garment industry in Chinatown? Chin: So the garment industry was already weakened with NAFTA, because it was already ten years by 2003, but NAFTA was signed ten years earlier, but by, okay, then after the rally, and the rising rates, okay, you had the rising rates in Chinatown, rent, and so those industry, those garment shops, who were priced out of Chinatown moved their shops to Brooklyn, to Queens, and so the union couldn’t get to them as easily, because before, you had all your shops in Chinatown and you just went from one shop to another, you know, let’s check out your records, you know, and the business agents did what they had to do. They couldn’t do that anymore with shops moving out to the outer boroughs, to Brooklyn and Queens. So that weakened it. Then, with 9/11, you know, traffic was closed, the whole lower Manhattan was closed to traffic for quite a few months, and trucks couldn’t get by. You know, these garments had to be delivered. They couldn’t get them. So they had to, they had garments that needed to be made, to be put together, that they couldn’t get to the shops, so they had to go elsewhere. Or else they went out of business. A lot of them went, went out of business. A lot of them went out of business because of that. So that was the last straw. That really did not help. Q: Now, has your mother retired? Chin: She retired in 1995. Q: And what does she do now? Chin: She works part time in a union office that helps newcomers to the union, who ask about benefits, and so like, from there she gets a feel of what the business is like now. And it doesn’t look very rosy. You know, members, potential members come, and they ask, you know, what benefits are there, what are the union dues. When they find out the union dues and they look at the benefits they receive, they weigh the two and they decide it’s not worth it. Health benefits are the most attractive. Everybody needs health coverage. But, you know, the newcomers are not like the company that met the newcomers in her day. In her day they were much more honest. You know, immigrants in my mother’s generation, or even a couple of decades after her, would never think to go on welfare. They were too proud to collect money, to collect a handout. But the immigrants coming over now weigh the two, well, I have to pay all these union dues, I get health benefits, but I have to give in so much, can I ever make the minimum required to keep my membership? You know, they have all sorts of rules about that. And they decide, well, if I just don’t keep any money in the bank, I can collect welfare, and work off the books. And I ought not to go for union work. I can get Medicare, Medicaid, for the needy. I can get Medicaid, I don’t need the union . And so nobody joins. Q: So what do you think is the likely experience of a new immigrant, a woman who just arrives from China, with absolutely no language skills, maybe can sew a little. What are her options if she wanted to stay in New York City or in America? Chin; There aren’t that many options. I mean, the garment industry is really, really at a low. I don’t know if anyone expects them to recover. There will always be some type of garment industry. But you have designers here, and they’ll always want someone to make something. You know, you can’t just send something, samples, or you can’t just send things overseas all the time. You do need some type of garment industry, but it will probably be specialized. A lot of the women who used to be in the garment industry, who used to sew, are moving into health care, you know, to help, it’s a different union, they help, they don’t call them health care workers---I think they’re called home work, home care. They take care of the elderly at home. They do a lot of that. They get training, they learn a bit of English. So they get benefits there. Q: Do you think it’s more difficult for a new immigrant now to arrive in American than at the time your parents did? Chin: Oh, yeah. Q: How so? Chin: Ah, basically because when my parents came, especially if you’re talking about the garment industry, when my mother came, the industry was growing. It was the fifties, and she started work in the fifties, and there wasn’t a shop, she had her pick of shops to go to. She saw the union, she saw all these benefits, and then she saw the big rally in 1982, and then she gradually saw the decline---shops moving to Queens, to Sunset Park. Of course, you always have your advantages of that, too, because if it weren’t for the shops, there probably would not be such a developed Chinatown in Sunset Park and elsewhere, because where the shops are, that’s where your women are, and then families start moving there to be closer to the work, and then, you’re closer to the work, you have to buy groceries after you work to bring home to cook. Then you have grocery stores, and then you have children, and then you have toy stores, and then----So that work, that garment industry develops that community. But for a new immigrant, it’s very difficult. The garment---they arrive at a time not when the garment industry is growing, but at a time when it’s declining. You see, the union, to be covered with medical benefits, you have to make a certain amount each quarter. With piece work, there’s no way you can make that much. And the government has had programs---federally-funded programs to teach new immigrants how to sew, but the work has to be there, too. You know, when all the jobs are being exported out of the country, you know, what do you expect the workers to sew? Q: So now, looking back on your parents’ life, has the way they lived or their experiences in America shaped your thinking and your professional life at the moment? Chin: Um, I’m not sure if it’s shaped it that much. As far as shaping is concerned, probably growing up more with my father than with my mother, because my mother was in the shop all the time, I took an interest in the things my father was interested in, like poetry, philosophy, writing. So that shaped my interests. But in general, I just find this whole Chinese----this whole immigration, even how the shops contributed to the building of Chinatown---I just find the whole thing fascinating. You know, how things fall in place. You know, ‘cause it was not just the shops moving to Chinatown and women working and then needing grocery stores afterwards. It had to be the right time and the right place. My father worked in a laundry. And, um, it was at a time when his laundry closed, because of wash and wear, permanent press, and people doing more of their own laundry, that freed the men to open up the grocery shops in Chinatown. You know, it just happens that these bosses had to be out priced in mid-town to open shops in Chinatown. And when the women who work also go home and cook, have to have grocery stores, well it just so happened that the laundry, the Chinese laundry man was being, you know, was closed out of his laundry, you know, because of permanent press, that he was free to think of different ideas. You know, you have women and children working in Chinatown---women working in Chinatown, you have families. Before, Chinatown was a bachelor society. Once you have women working there, women being able to come to America, you had children. Children grow up and get married, in the ‘70s that was the next generation, you had your first jewelry store in Chinatown, selling wedding jewelry, you know, the dragon bracelets. You know, I just find this whole development of the growth of Chinatown fascinating. Q: So when you go to Chinatown today, what do you see, how do you feel? How is it different from the Chinatown of your childhood? Chin: It doesn’t seem as vibrant----you know, there’s a lot of life there, but there’s also---you know, I remember my mother would buy jewelry, and we had friends who got married, and they would wear the traditional jade, or dragon bracelets, dragon and phoenix bracelets. And then I remember a time when that was no longer popular, because brides were getting robbed, and these gangs who knew that there was a wedding going on, there was a reception going on at a certain restaurant, would make sure they would be there, and you know, that didn’t help. The loss of the garment factories means business, ‘cause there’s not the women working there. You know, there’s also women, women will shop wherever they work. When women are not concentrated in Chinatown, there’s going to be less of the other type of shopping, for children, for their children, for toys, for food. And so you see less of that. Q: So you’re saying the loss of the garment industry in Chinatown affects the whole kind of food chain of the livelihood of Chinatown. Chin: Right. And Chinatown itself is changing. You know, Chinatown was always changing, from the ’50s, when it developed with the first garment factory, until now, when you see this decline in the garment industry. But, you know, Chinatown, it’s probably commonplace to say that money makes the world go ‘round, but you know, Chinatown garment shops are being priced out of their space, of their rental space. They moved to the outer boroughs because rent is cheaper in Brooklyn, in Queens. And who’s moving to Chinatown? You have these SoHo, these artists with their galleries, who are priced out of SoHo, because SoHo was a growing neighborhood at one point, and it’s up, it’s trendy now, it’s too expensive. So, and, they come down to Manhattan, to Chinatown, which is still cheaper than SoHo, even though it’s not cheap enough for your garment factory. So you have what’s called now gentrification of Chinatown. You walk along Canal Street, you go to Centre Street, you see a Charles Schwab there. There wasn’t a Charles Schwab there a decade ago. You know, you see a Starbucks. Chinese women don’t buy Starbucks. It’s a different population now. There are people coming down from SoHo. You know, they cater to them. If you walk past the corner of Canal and Centre, and look into Starbucks there, it’s the Northwest corner, it’s all American. Most---you know, 90 percent American. You know, where are they coming from? So it’s a change in pace in Chinatown. And, in fact, that building that rented to Schwab and Starbucks, used to have jewelry stores. You used to see a man standing on the street corner, “Sell your gold, sell your watch, sell your jewelry.” You don’t see that anymore. As their leases, as those used jewelry store leases expire, they’re bringing in a different type of store. So I guess if I say it’s, Chinatown is not the same, it’s probably nostalgic, because I guess anyone would say that, well, Starbucks and Charles Schwab is better than this used jewelry store, which it is. I bring my son here, so that he could see more Chinese people, and that’s when I sense, intensely, that he’s missing the Chinatown that I knew. Q: And is your mother saddened, is your mother saddened by the whole decline of the garment industry? Chin: She’s saddened, but she’s also, you know, on the selfish end, she’s glad that she’s retired and doesn’t have to deal with it. She is saddened for the newcomers. Q: Okay. I think that’s about it. Is there anything else that you want to add, that I haven’t asked you? Chin: Um, I can’t think of anything offhand. Q: Anything about your own work, or your courses? Chin: Um, my work, about my work, I know a lot of Chinese garment workers from my mother, and my mother knows some very interesting people who grew up China, or were educated in China in the ‘40s, they knew Russian, they know Chinese, but they come here, they don’t know English, so they end up in a garment factory. And, there are ladies---there is a lady who makes her own fertilizer, and shared a lot of things with me. And I started off my research, my interviews, I started off wanting to interview those people, the commonplace worker in the garment factory. You know, “What were you doing before?” you know, because that knowledge is not used in America. There are engineers, she introduced me to a Barefoot Doctor during the Cultural Revolution who came here and she couldn’t use any of her medical skills, because she doesn’t know English----she works in a garment factory. And I wanted to interview those people to show that your garment factory worker is not uneducated, unskilled in other ways. Unfortunately that didn’t work out because they would freely talk to me, but the minute I brought my tape recorder, they didn’t want to be recorded. And that’s made me turn around and interview my mother. She said, “I’ll help you out,” being very sympathetic towards me, and she talked about her work in the garment factories, and then it occurred to me, the garment factory, the whole garment industry is a fascinating industry. So after my mother, I called up some of the old, the retired people, union people, who, activists, who helped start the whole movement in Chinatown, who organized from the very first Chinese newsletter to the rally, the big rally in 1982. And that’s how I ended up interviewing labor leaders instead. And that has its own----I don’t want to say that’s more important than your common worker, but that is a history that hasn’t really been written yet. And, some of the information I have is from people who are old enough, anyway. They’re retired. So, and I’m very happy to have that on record, and to get an overall picture of how the movement started. I find that fascinating. Q: Well, I’m sure your work will be very useful for future researchers and scholars and hopefully for people in our project who might be interested to read more about what you’ve done because you’ve written a lot. Yes. Chin: I know that the Tamiment Library Labor Archives of NYU is looking forward to the report. And I feel very good to be a part of it. Q: Thank you so much. My name is Lan Trinh, and I’ve been speaking with Winifred Chin in her home in Brooklyn. Thank you. Chin: You’re welcome. Thank you. [END OF INTERVIEW] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：今天是西元二００四年一月八日，我現在在布魯克林陳小姐的家裡。為了存檔起見，請告訴我們你的名字？ 陳：我叫陳春卿，我是紐約大學亞太美洲研究計畫(Asian-Pacific-American Studies Program)的客座教授。我也是紐約大學Far Eastern Civilizations的助理副教授。 問：好的，我們將時光倒轉，回到童年，你可不可以談談你是在哪裡出生的? 父母是從甚麼地方來的? 陳：我是在布魯克林出生的，一生大部分時間都待在布魯克林。我的父母來自中國，我母親來自香港，父親來自廣州，中國廣東省。 問：他們是甚麼時候來到美國的？ 陳：我父親是1934年到的。他是個養子，就像我的書「Paper Son」中所描述的一樣，他後來曾在1949年的時候回中國一趟，在香港娶了我的母親，過了一年(1950)我母親也過來了，就定居在布魯克林。 問：他們為甚麼選擇到紐約呢? 陳：是這樣的，我父親是因為中國貧困的經濟情況而首先過來的。那仍是美國「排華」的年代，中國南方經濟情況持續惡化，想要改善個人生活，或想幫助家用(從國外寄錢回去)的人就移民到美國來。我母親的情況則是， 她的家庭環境本來很好，但是在日據時代失去了所有財產，對日抗戰結束後，她的父母急著要把所有的女兒嫁出去，他們家有三女四男，所以兩個女兒很快的嫁給了所謂的「金山」─美國華僑，她就是在這樣的情況下過來的。 問：你的父親是怎麼過來的呢? 陳：他是個養子，意思是他用錢去買到一張身分證明，證明他是某某美裔華人…抱歉，是某某華裔美國人的兒子。在我的書中「Paper Son」談的就是這一段歷史。這整段歷史大致是從1882到1943年美國排華年代開始的。在美國的中國人從1800年中期起，就開始在美國開築鐵路，但很快的，美國政府或者因為經濟或種族的考慮，決定不再接受任何美裔華……中國人到美國來。 當時有些已經在美國的中國人，他們的孩子是在美國出生的。這些在美國出生的公民，不論他們到哪一個國家，都可以把他們孩子帶回美國，即使他們的孩子不是在美國出生的。所以這些在美國出生的中國人，便成為所謂第一代的華裔美國人。根據排華法(the exclusion laws)，他們仍然不能跟中國人以外的種族通婚。所以當時想要結婚的話，就得回中國去。結婚後他們自己仍然可以回到美國，因為他們是在美國出生的公民，但是其他的中國人則不能。意思就是他們不能把妻子帶回美國。 「養子」就是在這樣的情況下開始的。他們在中國結婚，單身回到美國，九個月後宣稱孩子出生了，通常是個兒子，美國政府就會提供文件證明以便讓這個兒子移民到美國﹔理論上這些孩子是美國出生公民的下一代，所以可以被帶回美國，反之妻子就不可以。所以這些原本用來證明某人是某華裔美國公民的兒子，以便進入美國的文件，變成一種可以在黑市交易的商品，因為美國政府根本無從查明你到底有沒有個兒子。想到美國的人， 就等個十七八年買到這種證明，進入美國。 當你買到證明之後，你要記住所有資料。你要說，我是某某某的兒子，他是美國出生的公民，我的母親是中國人，我是某年某月某日出生的。你把所有資料記住後，通過美國海關時，如果你所有的回答都正確無誤，海關官員便認為，你就是文件上的那個人，你就是個美國公民。這樣進入美國的人就叫做「養子(Paper Son)」，我的父親就是個養子。 問：所以你的父親購買了這樣的一個證明？ 陳：是的。 問：這麼說來，你祖父並不是在美國的中國華僑，你的父親才是移民美國的第一代。 陳：是的。 問：你說他是1930年來的？ 陳：1934。 問：1934年他幾歲呢？ 陳：證件上的年紀是19歲，因為他必須假裝是證明書上的那個人。所以根據證明書的記載，他是19歲。 問：但你不知道… 陳：我們不知道他到底幾歲。 問：他在這兒待了多久才回去結婚呢？ 陳：他是1949年回去的，當時他在美國海軍服役，需要的話我有一張他當時的照片。 問：我們可以待會需要時再看。所以你的父親在假設十九歲到1949年去香港之間都是隻身待在美國…. 陳：他有些來自同一村莊的舊識，所以並不能真的算是隻身一人。你知道的，在當時排華的30年代，中國女性不能進入美國，即便是太太也不行，她們只能待在中國。所以當時的唐人街基本上是個單身漢社會。在一定程度上有來自社區的支持。當時絕大部分的移民來自台山，很多人彼此認識，有些甚至是遠親，或是稱呼彼此為親戚，這應該也算是一種親情的支持。 問：你剛說台山？ 陳：是的，台山。 問：所以他回去香港，遇到你母親…. 陳：對。 問：要接你母親到美國來困難嗎？ 陳：不難，但是我想若是早些時候可能就不容易了。因為我母親的家庭背景頗為顯赫，她的父親是英文老師，母親是產婦﹔ 家裡有汽車，孩子上的是私立學校。在當時這樣的家庭算是相當富有的了。但是他們在戰爭中失去了全部的家產，所以移民美國反而成為一種希望。 問：你覺得他們對來美國抱著甚麼樣的希望？ 陳：大多數的移民以為美國的街道是用金子舖成的，中文叫做「金山」，因為在1949年美國西部發現金礦，所以一般人以為美國到處是黃金。 我父親預先警告我母親來美國並不是來掏金，而是做洗衣粗活，他不要求她做多，但是不要奢望養尊處優。 問：你母親來自優渥的家庭環境，她能接受嗎？ 陳：她能接受的主要原因是她們家在戰爭中失去了一切，日本人把所有值錢的東西都拿走了，包括車子。僅餘的一些錢…. (噪音干擾) 問：所以在1949年時，你的父母在香港結婚，你的母親對移民到一個作粗活的地方有意見嗎？ 陳：她不反對的原因是對她來說香港已經沒希望了。日本人把所有值錢的東西都拿走了，家裡僅剩的餘產要留給男孩子作學費。她的哥哥最後成為醫生，另一個成了藥劑師，一個比較嬌生慣養的妹妹成了護士，所以確實沒有餘錢留給年紀較大的女孩子。我的母親在家排行老三， 所以她渴望移民，雖然她知道要做粗活，但是總比留在香港好。 問：你的父母當時會說英文嗎？ 陳：不會。我的父親懂的非常有限，我母親懂的一點點是因為她父親是交英文的，但他們倆的英文都不流利。是沒有辦法在美國主流社會找到工作的。 問：他們在紐約人生地不熟，剛到能去那兒呢？ 陳：他們住在唐人街，因為我的阿姨已經嫁給美國華僑，所以他們在唐人街住了一陣子，後來才搬到布魯克林。 問：他們為甚麼要搬？為甚麼不住在唐人街？ 陳：我父親從1934年起就知道唐人街，事實上是1936年，他1934年時先到波士頓，但在1936年來到唐人街，知道幫派還有Tongs的厲害，所以不希望我們生長在這樣的環境下。 問：不介意的話能不能告訴我們您是西元幾年出生的？ 陳：(笑)1952年。 問：在布魯克林？ 陳：對。 問：布魯克林的哪裡？ 陳：Bushwick。 問：描述一下你在布魯克林的童年，周圍很多中國人嗎？你有沒有覺得和別人不一樣？ 陳：Bushwick幾乎沒有中國人，除了我們家和王家(Wongs)，他們的故事在我的書Paper Son中也有提到。他們只跟我們隔一條街，再過幾條街有另外一戶，中國人就這些了。還有一戶是日本人。 大部分在布魯克林的中國家庭都習慣在禮拜天去一趟唐人街。我父親的洗衣店一周開七天，不，是六天，星期天我們就到唐人街。在他會說英文之後，他開始擔任位於唐人街Worth街True Light Lutheran Church的翻譯。這就是我們的社交生活。你知道的，50年代在布魯克林我們是很被保護的﹔當然，這跟時代有很大的關係，當時是麥卡錫主義(McCarthuism)的年代，身為中國人並不太受歡迎，除了一周去一次唐人街，上教堂，之後再拜訪親友之外，我們的生活頗為孤立。 有時候在夏天學校放假的時候，我們會到我母親的工廠去。 問：你身為一個少數亞裔的孩子，學校的生活怎麼樣呢？你會被孤立嗎？或受到不一樣的待遇？ 陳：並沒有，基本上還蠻開心的(笑)。我們跟別人確實很不一樣。當時的亞洲人被認為是很勤勞，很用功的。我哥哥和我在學校表現頗為傑出，我們總是老師最寵愛的學生。我們從未被孤立，我們還蠻受歡迎的。 問：所以你的父母從來沒有回香港或大陸的念頭？ 陳：沒有。我父親從1934年後再也沒有回去過，事實上，除了二次世界大戰在美國海軍服役期間，他從此再也沒有踏出美國一步。他再也沒回中國去過。他總是跟我說想帶我回故鄉看看，但從未曾實現。我母親還剩一個姊姊(妹妹？)住在香港。她回去過三，四次，還曾到大陸觀光旅行三個禮拜，但是她從來沒有想過要搬回大陸，或在退休後到大陸。 問：所以在你成長期間，你的父親早年靠開洗衣店維生? 陳：是的。 問：你的母親呢？ 陳：1955年我三歲，我哥哥五歲的時候，她開始在唐人街的血汗成衣廠上班。她聽教會的一些婦女說唐人街有活可幹，所以等我哥哥到上學的年紀之後，她就會先送我哥哥去學校，學校就位在地鐵站附近，然後她就搭地鐵到唐人街上班。我才三歲，就跟父親留在家裡的洗衣店。 問：她在香港曾工作過嗎？ 陳：不曾。 問：所以這是她第一份工作。 陳：沒錯，這是她第一份工作。 問：所以你在洗衣店長大… 陳：是的。 問：大概是怎麼樣的情況呢？ 陳：當你年紀小的時候，你感覺不出有甚麼不同。就像我們認識的其他中國家庭的小孩，也是在洗衣店長大，沒甚麼不對勁的。我們認識其他的人也是開店的。在Bushwick，有一整條街都是這樣樓下是店舖的兩層樓房，有個跟我們很要好的義大利家庭，前房開雜貨舖，他們就住在後房。隔壁是間糖果舖，他們也住在後房跟樓上。 我跟我哥哥並不覺得有甚麼奇怪的。我們的洗衣店不過是另外一間店罷了。 問：所以你並不會跟其他白種美國同學比較，比如說：為什麼只有我住在洗衣店的後房？ 陳：不會的，因為他們不過是住在糖果店的後房(笑)。我們不作這樣的比較。那是一個藍領階級的社區，義大利人，愛爾蘭人，每個人…我最要好的朋友有些就住在店的後房。 問：你父親的店在哪裡？ 陳：在Bushwick. 問：噢，在Bushwick，好的，所以你母親在唐人街工作，帶你的哥哥去上學… 陳：是的。 問：然後呢？ 陳：她帶我哥哥到布魯克林的學校，然後搭地鐵去上班。 問：她是個熟練的… 陳：裁縫？ 問：以前是裁縫嗎？ 陳：不，她是一邊做邊學的。 問：她為甚麼選擇作裁縫這一行呢？ 陳：這是少數對女性開放的行業之一。值得一提的是，當時正值唐人街的成衣業的成長期﹔20年代成衣廠原本多在中城(Midtown)，靠近FIT (Fashion Institute)，但是逐漸高漲的租金使廠主尋求較便宜的房租，像唐人街，唐人街當時是蠻便宜的。 所以50年代他們開始在唐人間設立工廠，也就是我母親找到工作的時候，他們徵求中國婦女，因為戰後中國婦女終於可以來美與先生團圓，這些婦女就在工廠裡作工，但你知道的，中國女性和大部分女性一樣習慣在家幫小孩缝縫補補，所以裁縫算是女性駕輕就熟的工作。現在只不過是幫別人作成商品罷了。即使她們在外面上班，她們仍然需要回家煮飯。 所以下班後，她們需要採買，雜貨店就應運而生，漸漸的唐人街就這樣形成了。在那之前不過是個單身漢的社區。 問：講一下你半中半美的生活。在家講的語言是？ 陳：中文。 問：廣東話？ 陳：是的。 問：顯然你在外面說英文，所以你在家是不說英文的？ 陳：不說的。 問：這是你父母規定的嗎？ 陳：是的，我父親認為我們應該要懂中文。尤其在50年代，麥卡錫主義年代(McCarthy era)，美國政府對可能是共產黨的中國人看的很緊。我父親寫的的文章有可能害他被驅逐出境的。所以我父親認為，如果真有一天不幸被驅逐出境，會講中文要好的多。有一段時間我們不確定究竟我們會不會被驅逐出境，所以要是真回到中國，會講中文會成為我們的優勢。 問：這樣的情況多嗎？我碰到的很多華裔都不會講中文。 陳：我也碰到像很多這樣不會講中文的人。但他們大多數納悶為甚麼他們的父母親不教他們(笑)。我想這是家庭教育的關係，家庭價值觀。 問：所以你週末到唐人街，說一說當時的唐人街的情況。社區有多大？有沒有感覺是個屬於中國人的社區？ 陳：有的，當時的社區生活比現在更活躍，小孩子很多。現在有小孩子了，社區正在發展，跟以前不一樣了。50年代前是沒有唐人街的，有的只是一個單身漢社區。那是排華的年代。中國婦女不准來美國。他們來到這裡，即使他們在中國結了婚，太太也是不准帶過來的。所以在50年代以前，沒有那麼多的小孩子，所以非常不同。 問：中國人，義大利人或其他移民彼此處的來嗎？ 陳：我不記得義大利移民。唐人街是到70年代才延伸到小義大利的。當然，也因此引起幫派地盤鬥爭。 50年代的唐人街是很小的，我母親會帶我們去唐人街，她買東西的時候我們就坐在門前的樓梯上，跟其他坐在樓梯口的小朋友玩。一個小時後她再回來，我們還在那兒，我想今天沒有母親會這樣做。 所以大概是這樣的情形。當然這是在幫派鬥爭白熱化之前。1965年移民法改變之後，產生很多幫派鬥爭，情形跟原來滿理想的社區大不相同。 問：能不能大概告訴我們當時血汗成衣廠工作的情況？你的母親在那兒工作的時候大概有幾家？ 陳：50年代，大概有十多家。在50年代不會超過20家。 問：老闆大多是中國人嗎？ 陳：猶太人或中國人。我不知道正確的比例，當時因為才剛開始，所以廠家還不算多。20年代時工廠剛從中城搬到唐人街，所以一切都剛開始，數目還不多。這是按件計酬的工作，做多少就賺多少。適者生存。如果你做得慢，老闆會說你坐在縫紉機前幹什麼？不如找別人來做。所以年紀大或學不來的人，很容易就丟了飯碗。 問：所以你的母親一天能賺多少錢？ 陳：一天？不多，一週大概能賺個七塊到十塊左右。你要知道，這是50年代。 問：所以加上你父親的收入，能不能過寬裕的生活，或者…..？ 陳：不寬裕，只是過得去。但是在其他方面我們過得很富足；我們學講中文，不像很多其他華裔是不講中文的。我們受到比較豐富的中華文化薰陶。精神生活相當富足。但經濟和物質方面就不太理想。 問：你的母親喜歡去工作嗎？或者很辛苦？她喜不喜歡？ 陳：我想她喜歡工作是因為這能讓她離開家裡。我能想像在洗衣店的後房帶著兩個小孩的生活能把人逼瘋。我相信她很開心能夠掙些外快，幫我們添購玩具，或幫自己買些小東西。 問：她一天工作幾小時？ 陳：那時的工廠一天開十二或十五個小時。她很早就起床帶我哥哥上學，常常到我睡覺了都還沒回來。一直到我都快不認得她是誰的時候，她才沒有再這樣。 問：你現在回想起會不會覺得跟母親想處的時間太少，或者…？ 陳：我跟母親相處時間確實不多，但是跟我父親非常親近，我的書「養子」就是以他的故事為本。這本書是我們合寫的，書在他去世後才發行。所以，我雖然少了一個母親，但是跟父親關係很親近，自從我父親去世以後，我跟母親也親近了很多。 問：我知道您對唐人街的成衣工會做了相當多的研究，可不可以請您介紹一下有關工會的起源及背景？ 陳：就像我前面說過的，工廠在50年代中城的高房租壓力下開始搬到唐人街，整個50年代，大概只有20家，或少於20家。60年代廠家漸漸增多，因為家人可以來美國了，但是最重要的改變是1965年移民法的修正，移民大量增加。工廠大約在1955年之前就開始有工會組織，最早可能從53或54年開始；1955年工會由Jay Mazur領導，他是Local 23-25的助理經理，這個分會當時多半是中國人。他創立了一份小型的中文報。他必須從舊金山雇用專人用手抄寫報紙，再透過廣播電台將訊息傳送到工廠。 所有英文要翻成中文，讓中國勞工瞭解他們的權益。這是從50年代開始的。 我母親本身在1957年加入公會。基本上工會從事全面運動通知中國勞工，派代表到各工廠告訴他們工會的存在，你付一點費用，可以獲得醫療保險，可以有公定假日及休假，因為我媽媽可以說一點點兒英文的關係，她在工廠幫忙工會代表翻譯。現在這樣的人被稱作「業務代表」(business agents)，專門負責一個工廠。以往有另外的稱呼。 問：工廠會威脅員工不得參加工會嗎？？ 陳：一開始是沒有的。但是等到老闆知道他們要負擔部分的費用，比如說社會安全保險，假設他們是支領薪水而不是現金的話，或者勞工根據FICA賺取的退休金，那麼工廠老闆就得支付部分的費用，不只是繳付政府稅款，還包括工會，工會的醫療保險。 等到他們不願再支付這些費用時，他們就向工人宣稱：「不要加入公會，他們只是要你們的錢。」衝突就這樣產生了，並且引發1982年的唐人街罷工大遊行。 事實上，這是一張早期的照片。 問：你的母親在哪兒？你能指出來嗎？ 陳：這個是我母親，這時大約是70年代初期。 問：你母親的全名是？ （第一面完畢） 陳：Wing Fong Chin。她是工廠代表，意思是她協助其他工人加入工會，填表，如果要付會費，就協助收費，她自願到上城 (uptown)，或者不是上城，到中城 (midtown)。她協助完成文件工作，因為大部分的工人不會說英文，她也說的不好，但是足夠幫忙。 問：這是自願擔任這個工作的嗎？或是？ 陳：1995年我母親剛開始工作時大約20多歲，用今天的話來說，她很有抱負。她還很年輕。她很想多賺些錢。按件計酬的工作就好像是你縫一條帶子，他們付你一分錢。但如果她發現另外一個工廠縫一條付兩分錢，她就會跳到另一家工廠。那個時候因為工廠不多，一兩年內她大約做遍了所有工廠。當工會代表到各工廠告訴工人：「加入工會，你可以獲得更多福利，得到醫療保險，休假及支薪病假」時，他們到每個工廠都看到我媽媽，他們就請她擔任工廠代表的職務。她把工廠的問題反映到工會。 問：你的母親來美國後是否曾正式學過英文？ 陳：沒有。她上班時學了一點。她會為工會發表演說，當然，是工會幫她準備的講稿，她會先預演，就是這樣慢慢學的；她也常常依賴我幫她看講稿，告訴她是什麼意思，如果她覺得不對，她就會說：「不對」，然後更正。 所以就像裁縫工作，她也是邊做邊學。 問：當時工會，工人，跟老闆之間主要的衝突是什麼？我知道你先前談到一些，但是工會的目標究竟是什麼？ 陳：工會的目標是改善工作環境。你知道的，這些女工從早上七點開始工作，雖然我母親並沒有，但是她知道工廠七點就開工，住在唐人街的女工七點就到了，一直工作到半夜。 問：這是因為老闆的要求，或者是因為按件計酬，所以做的越多…？ 陳：你按件領酬。是的。這是非常動機導向(incentive-oriented)的工作。做的越多，賺得越多。 問：因為工資很低，所以每個人都要工作很長的時間，才有一定的收入。 陳：工會的目標之一是設立最低工資標準，因為按件計酬是違反道德的。你就值這麼多錢，你能縫二十條帶子，就值二十分錢。但是工會打算根據美國勞工標準，設立最低工資，上班時間9點到5點。設立打卡制度，上下班打卡。他們會來檢查。如果工廠的員工是工會成員，那麼工廠也要加入工會。因為工會會員依規定不能為非工會工廠工作。所以工廠老闆也得付會費。這樣工廠和工人都是工會成員，老闆應該要遵守規定，包括：最低工資，9到5點的工作時數，打卡上下班制度，勞工有支薪的休假，病假，還有其他後來漸漸增加的權益。 問：你母親什麼時候從按件計酬變成最低薪資時薪？ 陳：理論上是改變了，我不清楚是什麼時候，但實際上，情況未曾改變。即使現在仍然有按件計酬的工作。那時候確實有打卡的制度，我記得小時候學校放假的時候，我們會跟媽媽到工廠去，那裡有打卡機和時間卡，我們早上很早就到了，我母親就立刻開始工作。九點到了，老闆就叫小朋友們幫媽媽打卡，小朋友就幫媽媽打上班的卡。五點一到我們會幫忙打下班的卡，但是所有的人繼續在工作。她們還是按件領酬，工作時數還是很長，只是賺的錢稍微多一點。等到工會代表來檢查打卡記錄和薪資的時候，他們會問：「你9點到5點上班，怎麼會賺這麼少的錢？」工人會說，被點到的工人，不是每個人都會被檢查到。被檢查到的工人會說：「我中間離開，我並沒有真的從9點做到5點，我兒子生病了，所以我去接他。」等等藉口。 事實上，最低工資從來沒有真正的實行。 問：所以雖然你的母親是工會成員，她仍然接受這種作法，好像大家都接受這種作法，至少這樣會讓工會滿意，同時也能享有一些參加工會的福利--- 陳：是的，因為還是有一些權益，大部分婦女是從鄉下來的。大部分不是從香港來的，她們原先從事農業，在鄉村的農田裡工作。有鞋可穿，不用光腳在田裡面工作，有台縫紉機在你前面，已經算是一種進步了。 工會的觀念在中國傳統裡是不存在的。所以參加工會，最低工資對這些婦女不代表任何意義。我不確定有多少人能真的瞭解。但是她們知道有健康保險。還有什麼比這更重要？也有可支薪的休假。所以很多婦女從來沒有抱怨過按件計酬的工作。 問：那麼對你母親及家庭這代表什麼呢？有沒有對你們的生活帶來變化？ 陳：在那個時候說來，我們可以多買些玩具。有些人會說這是童工，另外就是工會不准小孩子待在工廠，因為那裡有機器，小孩容易受傷。有些小女孩跟著媽媽來上班，幫忙縫東西。我也曾幫我母親縫東西。當她在縫吊褲帶跟肩帶的時候，她要把這些帶子從管子裡穿過去然後再翻過來，我們就幫忙這些，這樣當然也算童工。 但是，當你才十歲或八歲的時候，你不會往這方面想。我們誰的忙都幫。好讓她們多賺些錢。我們還會玩一種遊戲，看誰翻的帶子最多。對我們來說這像個遊戲。如果剛好遇到工會來臨檢，我們就躲到廁所去，有一次我們被藏到防火梯。（笑） 問：你是否曾想過你母親的工作環境很差，很糟糕？ 陳：從來沒有。對小孩子來說，經歷這樣的環境，因為他們驚人的適應力，並不覺得環境很差。即使我回想起我做的那些工，我並不覺得我是童工。尤其是在唐人街的工廠。如果我我是在南美洲，工作12個小時，像在厄瓜多(Ecuador)，墨西哥的一些南美洲國家的兒童一樣在美國出口成衣廠工作12小時，那才是真正的虐待童工。 我們比較像在玩。工會認為工廠環境對兒童健康有不良影響。 問：即使在英文比較流利後，你的母親或父親也從未想過要換工作？ 陳：沒有。我父親一輩子都在洗衣店工作。但他其實是個作家。他會作詩，出版。他有其他想做的事。店裡不忙的時候，他就寫作，看書，所以他從來沒有---他寫作的熱忱恨高，他發表的中文詩作有幾百首。部分譯作收在我的書中「Paper Son」。他從來不熱衷於學習英文以便去找一份較好的工作。他懂中文，他用中文工作，他的中文很好。 我母親也是一樣。對她來說這不過是份餬口的工作。她想多賺些錢貼補家用，多買些玩具，奢侈品，這就是她的希望。那時的想法很簡單。戰後的態度。家庭和樂就好。歷經過二次大戰的日軍，她並沒有---當時是完全不同的一個時代，她只要平平安安在家裡就很開心了。跟今天的婦女比起來，她算是一點抱負也沒有。但是在她那個年代，她已經非常滿足了。 而且她在工會也屢獲升遷。從一個工廠代表到最後做到Local 23-25的董事會主席。 問：Local 23-25有多少人呢？ 陳：現在？ 問：那個時候。 陳：我不曉得。最多人的時候，大約在70年代，1980，1982年時，大約有兩萬人。他們都參與了大罷工。這些是大罷工的照片。這是在Columbus公園舉行的遊行，這是我母親，正在發帽子跟胸章，告訴婦女不要去上班，因為工廠老闆拒絕簽一個長達三年提高薪水，增加假期及其他福利的合約。這是遊行開始前，她正在發帽子跟胸章給大家。遊行開始後，她是工人的發言代表之一。 問：你對身為工運活躍份子的母親有什麼看法？ 陳：我以她為傲。我母親做的其中的一件事---我跟我哥哥都知道她不可能一輩子待在洗衣店。她整天只縫衣服我們也替她難過。當她開始參加工會額外的活動時，我們也替她感到高興。 這是在紐約大學（NYU）。這是在Triangle Shirtwaist 工廠的紀念大會上(譯者按：1911年一場在紐約Triangle Shirtwaist Factory發生的大火導致146名血汗工廠的女工喪生)。 問：她總是以英文發表演說嗎？ 陳：不一定，看場合跟聽眾。遊行的時候，因為有兩萬名中國勞工參加罷工，她說中文。在Triangle Shirtwaist紀念大會上，因為在場有紐約時報的記者，她就以英文發表演說。 問：當時爭取婦女參加工會困難嗎？ 陳：不會。現在就比較難了。50年代的時候工廠比較少，不到20家。等到60或70年代，差不多有150至200家。當然工會也變的更積極。所有的工廠都要納入。等到70年代末期，工會要管到所有的違規事項，因為每次工會敲門的時候， 都要等很久門才會開。我記得去店裡找我母親時，我母親會叫我：「先敲一下，停，再敲兩下。」老闆就會出來開門讓我進去。週末是應該不上工的。如果敲門聲不一樣，他們就不開門。 所以工會要管所有的違規事項，大概在70年代中期或末期時，他們請美國勞工部來評估狀況，宣傳的很廣，到處都開始有關於血汗工廠的違規報導，「血汗工廠」(“Sweatshop”)一詞開始出現，成衣廠開始被稱為血汗工廠。從70年代起成衣廠開始被叫做血汗工廠，工廠老闆受到壓力要守法。成本因此增加。所以70年代開始業主不願加入工會。工會對婦女還有男工有利，但是老闆不想加入。 到1982年，大概有500或550個工廠，大約兩萬名工人，因為業主不願簽訂工會合約而發生大罷工事件。合約是三年一簽。他們拒絕簽約。他們以為中國婦女還是會來上班，他們希望她們還是會來上班。因為中國人以工作勤奮出名。我們不會罷工。中國人不罷工。只要有工作，她們就會去上班，因為中國人飢荒太久了。有工作，他們就會去上班。 問：70年代的業主都是哪裡人？中國人嗎？ 陳：有華工… 問：不，業主。 陳：喔，也有華人的業主。猶太裔的老闆漸漸減少。這也帶來些改變。華裔老闆因為他們是中國人的關係， 會強調：「我們都是中國人，不要聽工會的」。 問：--「我們都是中國人」。 陳：對，我們都是中國人。我們是同一邊的。他們雇用員工的家人，姊妹或是女兒，假如她們需要打工的話。大家都是一家人。他們利用中國人的家庭觀念。70年代末期的華裔商人移民比前幾代的移民要多一點資本，他們利用這個觀念，然後到1982年的時候說：「工得照作，但我們不同意簽約。」 他們覺得華裔婦女還是會來上班，因為大家都是一家人。這些婦女證明他們錯了。她們罷工。她們遊行，就像我剛拿給你看的照片--- 問：罷工的結果是？ 陳：最後他們同意簽約，提供較高工資，較多假期跟較好的醫療保險。我手邊沒有這份合約，但是每簽一份新的合約，勞工就獲得更多的保障。 問：所以工會算是勝利了。 陳：是的，報紙有很多的報導。在Columbus公園有個大遊行。有舞龍，有神父在遊行開始前祝禱。談到工會怎麼一路走來幫勞工爭取權益的歷史，他們要求業主簽約，叫工人不要上班，然後從早上開始在唐人街遊行，舞龍舞獅，中午前大約百分之90的工廠都簽了約。他們終於體會到如果工會叫他們「不要上工」，他們就不會去工作。 這是他們萬萬沒有料想到的。他們料想華裔婦女只要有活幹就會來上工。 問：現在來談談你。你曾想過會受到這麼高等的教育嗎？ 陳：我不認為我受到非常高等的教育。我有碩士學位，但沒有唸完博士學位，因為我掙扎於完成博士論文及撰寫我父親的回憶錄之間，我要幫他撰稿，編輯及出版，我沒有辦法兩者兼顧。我放棄博士學位。我對碩士學位很滿意了，憑碩士學位我可以教書，而有人說博士學位的重要性視你的專業而定。我聽說如果你持續寫作，這跟博士學位一樣管用，而我已經出版了兩本書。對研究或教授博士課程或許不管用，但是對我教授大學一，二年級的課程是足夠了，我仍然一直從事研究工作，所以雖然在學術上或學位上，我並沒有拿到最高學位，但是我對在研究工作中所學到的感到很滿意。 問：但你從未想過有一天會跟母親一樣成為一個裁縫？ 陳：從沒有。 問：為什麼？ 陳：我想這是我父親灌輸給我和我哥哥的觀念，也許對我哥哥影響少一點。他要務實一些。他是個工程師，但是我父親對女孩子的觀念比較舊：「你念哪一門都行，因為你不用負擔主要的家計。但是不論你學什麼，要把它學好，這樣你總可以找到工作，你總是可以教書。」 所以我主修哲學，後來專攻亞洲哲學，我對這非常有興趣。所以我從來沒有想過我會成為一個裁縫。我曾擔心哲學學位能做些什麼，但是我確實很喜歡。後來就教書。 問：簡單介紹一下你的研究，唐人街的成衣業的變化。你說在70年代末和80年代初是高峰期。大概有兩萬名工人--- 陳：對--- 問：500個血汗工廠--- 陳：對--- 問：發生了什麼事？什麼時候開始沒落的？ 陳：1982年大約有5百到6百個工廠約兩萬名工人參與大罷工。這是個估計，因為開成衣廠的要訣，就是要趕快換手，賣給親戚，改個名字，讓工會查不到，工會就沒辦法叫你加入。逃過了工會，就不用繳稅，然後繼續改名字。這是為什麼5百到6百個廠僅僅是個略估，而非確定的數字。 這時大約是高峰期。從那以後，不僅要想辦法避免工會，還要設法應付高漲的房租。高漲的房地產價格曾逼使猶太裔的成衣廠老闆從中城搬到唐人街，同樣的原因，華裔老闆把工廠從唐人街搬到布魯克林的Sunset Park，皇后區，或 Borough Park，這就是目前曼哈頓唐人街的情況。他們搬出曼哈頓。 根據紐約時報報導，9/11之後的三個月，大概還剩下146家。我跟我母親簡單的談過，問她知不知道？她說現在大概剩下150家。我覺得不到150家，因為情況一直在惡化。所以9/11的三個月後是146家，現在可能剩100家。 問：你認為9/11之前最多有幾家呢？ 陳：最多是1982年，大概有500或550家。 問：從1982年到9/11之間算是滿長ㄧ段時間。成衣業一直在式微。 陳：式微的原因在於進口。像北美自由貿易協定(NAFTA)，把工作機會輸出，進口中國或墨西哥製造的便宜的衣服。這種型態的貿易讓很多工作機會流失了。我剛於2003年四月做完一些訪談，視訪談對象而定，他們估計目前約有百分之85至百分之90的成衣是進口的。 成衣業確實在凋零中。去年正值北美自由貿易協定十週年慶。所以是從1993年開始。去年是十週年慶。這是在公元2000年之前，在9/11之前就發生的。是因為進口。9/11只是壓垮駱駝的最後一根稻草。 （錄音帶第一卷完） 問：我們剛討論到唐人街成衣業的衰落。我們再從那兒接著談。你說即使在9/11之前唐人街的成衣業已經有衰退的跡象--- 陳：因為進口，而簽訂北美自由貿易協定對成衣業並沒有幫助。即使在80年代，1982是全盛期，進口比例也高達百分之50。然後1993年北美自由貿易協定簽訂，剛過完十週年慶，目前進口佔約百分之90，或百分之85-90。有些受訪者甚至預計到2005年進口將達百分之百。 問：在你母親活躍於工會的時候，也就是血汗工廠的全盛期，大多數產品是內銷嗎？有沒有任何外銷？ 陳：沒有，大部分是內銷，這是部分的情況，但是情況並非那麼簡單。這個問題不止一個答案。在50和60年代，並沒有名牌，沒有卡文克萊(Calvin Klein)或是GAP，即使有些品牌，也是非常少。當時賣成衣的店像Lerner’s或 Joyce Lesley，類似今天聯合廣場(Union Square)第14街的成衣商場，販賣各式衣服。現在有專賣店，GAP或Calvin Klein本身就像一個工業，GAP 決定把衣服送到中南美洲去製造，像Calvin Klein這種知名品牌不會交給一個唐人街的小工廠做。這些就是在9/11之前導致成衣業衰退的原因。名牌都在國外生產，因為成本比較便宜。 問：但是9/11是怎麼樣成為壓垮駱駝的最後一根稻草呢？ 陳：成衣業之前已經受到北美自由貿易協定的影響，到2003年北美自由貿易協定屆滿十年，這是十年前簽訂的。大遊行之後，唐人街上漲的房租迫使成衣廠離開唐人街，搬到布魯克林，皇后區， 使得工會很難跟工廠聯繫，因為以前所有的工廠都在唐人街，工會走一趟就可以從這一家到那一家做紀錄檢查，業務代表(business agents)可以做他們該做的事。但是在工廠搬到布魯克林跟皇后區後，這就行不通了。 所以這有影響。而9/11之後，整個下城(Lower Manhattan)交通關閉了好幾個月，卡車不能進出。工廠有貨要送。但是拿不到。他們有貨要趕，等著上工，但是他們沒辦法到工廠。所以只好搬走。否則關門大吉。很多廠都倒閉了。很多廠是因為這樣倒閉的。這就是最後一根稻草。對情況沒有幫助。 問：你的母親退休了嗎？ 陳：她1995年的時候退休了。 問：她現在在作什麼呢？ 陳：她在一個工會辦公室兼差，幫忙新會員瞭解一些福利，因為這個工作使她對現在的成衣業也有些瞭解。前景不看好。一些想成為會員的人想知道有哪些福利，會費多少。當他們知道繳出的會費是多少，得到的福利有哪些之後，他們作一番比較，結果覺得不值得加入。健康保險是最吸引人的項目。每個人都需要健康保險。但是現在的新移民跟她當年的不一樣。她那時的新移民比較誠實。我母親那個年代或甚至一二十年之後的移民從來沒想過領社會救濟金。他們的傲氣讓他們不願意伸手乞討。但是現在的新移民會比一比兩者，我要付這麼多會費，然後有這些醫療保險，我能賺得到保有會員資格的最低工資嗎？這是規定的。他們決定：如果我不把錢存在銀行裡，就可以領社會福利，在帳面下工作。 不去工會會員的工廠工作。需要的時候就申請Medicare或Medicaid（譯者按：美國社會福利提供貧戶及老人的醫療保險）。我不需要工會。 所以沒有人加入。 問：你認為新移民可能遭遇到的情況是什麼？假設一個婦女剛從中國大陸來，不會說英文，會一點縫紉，想留在美國紐約，她有什麼選擇？ 陳：選擇不多。我的意思是成衣業真的很蕭條。我不知道有沒有人覺得會恢復的。某種型態的成衣業總是會有的。服裝設計師總是需要製作些成衣。你不能只是寄樣本，或者把所有的東西都送到國外生產。你仍然需要某種型態的成衣業，但是應該會走向專業化。 很多原來在成衣廠的女工轉行到醫療護理，不同的工會，他們不叫健康護理人員---我想叫做家庭護理。他們照顧家居老人。很多人作這一行。他們接受訓練，學說一點英文。這對他們有利。 問：你覺得現在到美國的新移民要比你父母親那一代要來的辛苦嗎？ 陳：是的。 問：為什麼？ 陳：如果你講的是成衣業的話，基本上我父母來的時候，成衣業正在成長。那是50年代，而她從50年代開始工作，她可以挑選喜歡的工廠去上班。她見證了工會， 見證了這些福利，見證了1982年的大遊行，最後見證了沒落---工廠遷往皇后區，遷往Sunset Park。 當然，這也有它的好處。如果不是因為這些工廠，Sunset Park及其它的地方大概不會有這麼具規模的唐人街，因為工廠帶來了婦女，家庭隨之搬到工廠的附近，下班後要採買做飯。有了雜貨店，有了小孩子，就有了玩具店---所以成衣業為當地帶來了發展。但是對新移民很不利。他們來的不是在成衣業興盛的時候，而是衰退的時候。為了負擔工會的醫療保險，每一季至少要達到最低收入。按件計酬是賺不到那麼多的。 聯邦政府雖然有訓練新移民學習裁縫的計劃，但是訓練後必須有工作。現在所有的工作都出口到別的國家了，工人還能縫些什麼？ 問：回顧你父母親的一生，他們在美國的經驗是否影響你的看法和你目前的職業？ 陳：我不確定影響大不大。有影響的話，應該是陪我長大的父親多於我母親，因為我母親幾乎都待在工廠，而我對父親的嗜好產生興趣，像作詩，哲學，寫作等。這影響了我的興趣。但一般說來，我對整個華裔---整個移民，甚至成衣廠繁榮了唐人街等---有非常強烈的興趣。整個發展的過程。因為這不單單是成衣廠遷往唐人街，婦女就業，雜貨店應運而生而已。這必須有天時地利的配合。 我父親開洗衣店維生。後來我父親結束洗衣店的時候，因為免熨織布的發明，越來越多人自己洗衣服，就有人開始經營雜貨店。剛好那時成衣廠的老闆因為租金高漲從中城紛紛搬到唐人街。婦女除了工作外也得回家煮飯，得有雜貨店，而剛好因為免熨織布等，洗衣業不景氣，經營洗衣業的華人得另謀生路。 婦女和小孩在唐人街工作---婦女在唐人街工作，就有個家庭生活。之前唐人街是個單身漢社會。一旦婦女可以合法移民到美國後，開始在那兒工作，你就有了小孩子。70年代的下一代，長大了要成婚，就有了第一家首飾店，賣結婚的首飾，龍手鐲之類的。我真的覺得這一段唐人街發展的歷史引人入勝。 問：如果你到今天的唐人街，你看到什麼，有什麼感覺？跟你小時候的唐人街有何不同？ 陳：似乎沒有那麼生氣蓬勃---還是有各式各樣的生活，但是---我記得我媽媽曾經去買首飾給要結婚的朋友，他們會配戴傳統的首飾，玉，龍手鐲，龍鳳手鐲。後來這種情況不再流行，因為新娘會被搶劫，幫派份子一旦知道有婚禮要舉行，他們打聽出宴客的餐廳，就去打劫，這對情況不利。成衣廠的衰退也就是生意的衰退，因為婦女不再在那兒上班。因為婦女多半在上班的附近購物。當婦女不再聚集在唐人街，購物、買玩具和食物的人潮就不像以往多。 問：你的意思是唐人街成衣業的衰退影響了唐人街的整個連鎖生態？ 陳：對。唐人街也在改變中。唐人街一直在改變，從50年代第一個成衣廠開始，直到現在成衣業的沒落。一切向「錢」看或許理所當然，但是成衣業被唐人街的高租金逼的外移。因為皇后區跟布魯克林區租金比較便宜，所以他們往那兒搬。那麼現在誰住到唐人街呢？被SOHO地區高租金逼的往外搬的的藝術家和藝廊；因為SOHO越來越時髦，越來越貴，所以他們往曼哈頓下城搬，搬到唐人街，至少比SOHO便宜，雖然對成衣業來說仍然太貴（譯者按：SOHO是曼哈頓的一個地區，意指 South of Houston Street）。 這就形成了唐人街的高級化(gentrification)。走在Canal Street和Centre Street上，你可以看到一家Charles Schwab銀行。十年前那兒沒有Charles Schwab。現在有Starbucks咖啡館，華裔婦女是不喝 Starbucks咖啡的。現在的居民結構已經不同了。有從SOHO搬來的人。這是為了迎合他們而存在的。如果你經過Canal 街和Centre街的西北角，往Starbucks裡看，全是美國人，百分之90是美國人。他們從哪兒來的？所以唐人街的步調在改變。 在Charles Schwab和Starbucks之前，那個地方原先是幾家首飾店。以前在街角可以看到有人叫賣：「收購金子，手錶，首飾」。現在已不復存在。首飾店租約到期後，引進了其他的店面。 所以如果我說唐人街變了，也許有人會覺得我懷舊，因為很多人覺得Charles Schwab跟Starbucks比二手首飾店來的好，我不否認。但是當我帶我兒子來唐人街，想讓他多看一些中國人的時候，我才強烈的感受到，現在的唐人街跟我以前記憶中的唐人街已經不一樣了。 問：你的母親對成衣業的沒落覺得傷感嗎？ 陳：是很傷感。但是她也竊喜她已經退休，不用再去管。但是她為新移民感到難過。 問：我想這樣夠了。有沒有我沒問到而你想補充說明的？ 陳：一下子想不到。 問：有關你的工作或課程？ 陳：我的工作方面，因為我母親的緣故，我認識了很多成衣工人，我母親認識一些非常有意思的人，他們生於中國大陸，或在40年代在大陸受教育，會說俄文跟中文，但是來到美國，囿於不諳英文，而在成衣廠上班。有些小姐---有一個小姐會自製肥料，告訴我很多事情。我開始我的研究計畫跟訪談，我一開始想先訪問一般成衣廠的勞工。比如問他們說：「你之前從事哪一行？」，因為他們在美國沒有辦法從事他們的專業。有些是工程師，其中一個介紹我認識一個在文革時期作赤腳醫生的人，來到美國後不能從醫，因為她不會說英文---她現在在成衣廠上班。 我想從訪談中證明成衣廠的勞工並非是無知識，無專業的人。很不幸的這個計畫並沒有實現，因為他們很自在的跟我聊，但是一旦我拿出錄音機，他們便不願被錄音。這促使我轉而訪問我自己的母親。她對我說：「我來幫你」，因為同情我，她跟我談在成衣廠的工作，我才發現整個成衣業是個非常有意思的一個行業。之後，我跟一些已退休的老人、工會活躍份子聯繫， 這些人幫忙推動唐人街的運動，組織第一份中文報一直到1982年的大遊行。這就是為什麼最後我決定訪問工運領導人的原因。 這一段有它自己的---我不是說這比其他的勞工重要，但是這段歷史尚未被記錄下來。而我獲得的資訊有些是年紀夠大的人提供給我的。他們退休了。我很高興能夠把他們記錄下來，以便瞭解整個運動的梗概。我覺得非常有意思。 問：我想你的工作對將來的學者，還有參與我們計畫有興趣多瞭解你的研究的人會有很大幫助，因為你這方面寫的很多。 陳：我知道紐約大學的Tamiment Library Labor Archives很期待這份報告。我很高興參與這個研究計畫。 問：非常謝謝你。我是鄭愛蘭，我訪談的對象是陳春卿女士，地點是她布魯克林的家中。謝謝。 陳：不客氣，謝謝。 （完） Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Winifred C. Chin 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee K. Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-01-24 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation college student/garment mother Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: It’s January 27, 2004. We’re sitting in the archives of the Museum of the Chinese in the Americas again. Can you tell me your full name and your date of birth? K.: My full name is K., and I was born on September 21st, 1982. Q: Wow, so you’re very young, so…. K.: Yeah, I’m pretty young, yeah. Q: Okay. K., tell us about your parents. Were they born in America? K.: No, they were—I’m not sure where they were born, actually. I think they were born in China, but they lived in Hong Kong, and they immigrated to America, before I was born, like two years before I was born. Q: And what year was that? K.: I think it was 1980. I was born in 1982. [laughs] Q: ’82, okay. And why did they decide to come to New York? K.: I’m not sure the reason why they decided to come to New York, but I think my dad had relatives here already, that’s why. Q: Do you ask them about these things? Are you curious about what brought your parents to America? K.: I know my mom came to New York because my dad was here, that’s, that’s all I know. But, I don’t know, something about like Asian parents or Chinese parents, you don’t ask them about these things because they’re not really, they feel really reluctant, or they always hesitate when you ask them those questions---different from American families when they, like, lay out the whole history for you, you know? Q: So your dad came to America first? K.: Um, yes. Q: And why did he come here? K.: I think it’s just for a better future, that kind of thing. Like, back in the days when, you know, China---Oh, I actually know, he immigrated, he used to live in China in this Canton city, and because of the Communists, um, like something with the Red---I don’t know what--- Q: The Red Guards? K.: Yeah, the Red Guard, he used to be in like a really rich family, but his father owned like a lot of cigar companies in this city, and because he was so rich, they like, did something to his dad and so he had to like run to Hong Kong. And so he can never go back to that city in China because then they would have got him and put him in the Red Guards, too, and that’s why he went to Hong Kong and that’s how he met my mom. And I don’t know why he came to America, though. I think it’s just to start a new, or get a new life. Q: And how do you know that much? Do you ask them? Or did he---- K.: I don’t---I recently found out from my mom, actually, like, I never knew about this until maybe like two weeks ago. Q: Okay. So, what kind of relationship do you have with your parents, then? K.: Um, a “don’t ask” relationship. I’m not really close with my dad, ‘cause my mom and dad are divorced, so I don’t really get to ask him that much. I only see him once in a while. And my mom, we talk about my mom’s side, but we rarely talk about my dad’s side. Like, I can’t ask her about my dad’s stuff. So it was just out of luck that day that she was willing to tell me something. I think my mom married my dad because she knew that after marrying him, she could come to America, and she just wanted to, like, live away from her mom, I guess. It was a really hard life in Hong Kong, and, like, Asian daughters just always have to listen to their parents, and she was just sick of that, I guess, and she wanted to have her own life. So she decided to marry my dad, because she could get like the opportunity to come to America. [cross talk] ---there was no love or anything in there, so--- Q: There’s no love between your parents? K.: That’s what she says, she’s like, “There’s no love,” like, “It’s only, I married him because I wanted to come to America.” Q: How old were you when they got divorced? K.: Two years old. Q: Okay, so you don’t really know your father very well at all. K.: No. Q: Okay. Well, so your mom came to America to be with your dad. And you were born in New York City. K.: Yes. Q: Where in New York City? K.: St. Vincent’s, I think, Hospital. I don’t remember. Q: In Chinatown? A: Is that in Chinatown? [laughs] Q: There is one in Chinatown. K.: That’s probably where I was born. Q: And you grew up alone with your mother? You have siblings? K.: I have one sister, but she lives with my dad, so I grew up pretty much alone with my mom. Q: What was that like, being just the two of you? Did you mother speak English when she came to America? K.: Um, she doesn’t speak--- [cross talk about microphone] EDIT OUT Q: So you were born in 1982 at St. Vincent’s. You’re not sure which St. Vincent’s, maybe the one in Chinatown. K.: I think probably the one in Chinatown, knowing my mom. She lives in, like, the radius of Chinatown. Never goes out of it. Q: Why? Did your parents choose to live in Chinatown, or your mother didn’t speak English? Why? K.: She didn’t, she still doesn’t really speak English. Actually, after September 11th, she enrolled in those classes, those English speaking classes, so now she speaks a little bit. She actually learned. I mean, back in the days, like I remember when I was really young, I knew, I know she speaks a little bit of English, but I guess lack of practice and she didn’t really have any kind of motivation or, like, she lives in Chinatown, everyone speaks Chinese, so there’s no way where she can practice her English, and so she just speaks Chinese all the time, and now she doesn’t really speak English at all, and so she relies on me or my sister to, like, bring her around, or, you know, ask for food, order food in Western restaurants. Q: Do you like that role? K.: Um, I mean, I, it’s just I guess a responsibility, but I wish that she would be a little bit more, like, assimilating with a place where she lives in. I mean, she’s lived here for more than twenty years, so why doesn’t she try to just, you know, fit in, with this place that she lives in. She doesn’t live in Hong Kong anymore, and Chinatown is so small, so, she can’t live here all her life, and currently we’re moving to Brooklyn, and I don’t know what she’s going to do. I mean, sometimes she’s not even sure of how to take the subway, so, now we have to take the subway every single day, and we’re living in Bay Parkway, and there’s not, like Chinatown is just one store right there, and what is she going to do? I can’t like, you know, be around her all my life to, you know buy things for her and daily necessities and that kind of thing, and I’m going to be going back to school very soon, for months she’s going to be in this new area, and I don’t know what she’s going to do. Q: Why do you think your mother is like that? K.: I’m not sure. I guess she’s very passive. She likes to just sink in there and hide away. She’s not the aggressive type. Not someone who likes to climb up a ladder. Q: And she never thought of remarrying? K.: I think she never thought of remarrying because of me. And that’s why I, I feel the responsibility to take care of her. Q: What do you mean, because of you? K.: Um, well, when her, when she got a divorce with my dad, I know that she could have just given me up. Like, she could have just let my dad have me. My dad wanted to have both my sister and I, but she just felt, I don’t know, I felt the responsibility---I don’t know what she felt, actually, I mean, she just wanted to take care of me, because I was very young, like I was still pretty much a toddler, I guess. I mean, the divorce process took a long time, so they officially divorced when I was two years old, but it started before then, and she wanted to take care of me, because she never had the chance to, and I know that there’s like a whole controversy between taking my sister and me. My sister at that point was, I think, four or five years old, and everyone urged her to take my sister, because she was older and that means less years of taking care of, and maybe less years of finding a babysitter, but she just insisted on taking me, because I was younger and I never had, like, motherly love, or ever experienced that kind of---- Q: And what did your mother do to support the two of you? K.: I’m not sure. She’s a seamstress, and she gets like, about, less than ten thousand a year. Like every year we get about nine thousand a year, so we live on a really cheap basis, like, ever since I was fourteen, I’ve been working. Like, I have had a part-time job ever since I was fourteen. And for college, I mean, I’m so poor that I have like full tuition, like they gave me a full tuition scholarship. Q: Where are you going to school right now? K.: Oberlin College. It’s in Ohio. Q: So ten thousand a year. What year are we talking about? How can a family survive on ten thousand a year in, in ---- K.: Nine thousand! It’s not ten thousand. We never earned over ten thousand. Q: Even, like, in 2003? Your mom only earned that much? K.: Yeah, I mean, if she earned more, it’s only because of this thing, like, I mean, I don’t know about it, but like it’s something with the factory, and like how you buy checks or something. It’s a whole like, conspiracy in there--- Q: Is she part of the union? K.: Yes--- Q: ----the garment union? K.: Yes. Q: Okay, well, let’s rewind to your childhood in Chinatown. So, how often did you see your dad when you were growing up? K.: Um, when I was very young, I think before, before, before like seven years old, I saw him every single weekend, but after, after a certain age, there was like this big fight my mom had with my dad. Like my dad suddenly, like, took my sister and sent her to Florida, and so my mom couldn’t see her anymore. So she got mad, and she was like, you know, “If you’re going to do that with my daughter, then you’re not going to get to see, like, K. anymore.” Like, so, after that I only saw him about maybe once a year. And now I see him like once, once, for like half a year. Half a year I see him once. Q: Where does he live? K.: He lives in Brooklyn. Q: Oh. Near where you and your mother have just moved to? K.: I don’t think so. It’s not near---I’m not sure where he lives actually. I mean, I have to check up the address. I’m not sure. Q: So he didn’t support you and your mom at all? K.: He gave the bare minimum. But there was this, like a court, like child support money---- Q: Alimony--- K.: Yeah. And it was just a very small amount. It came out to be maybe like three dollars a day. So that was how much he gave me. But now I’m very thankful of him actually, because he’s been giving me money for every semester, so I don’t really have to ask my mom for money, like I just take the money he gives me to support myself. And I work in college. Q: So that must have been really tough on your mom, to single-handedly raise you and to work. K.: Yeah, it was pretty hard. Q: Did you spend a lot of time with her, or was she always busy working? K.: I didn’t get to spend as much time with her as I wanted to. Like, during the weekends, she works Monday through Saturday from about eight in the morning ‘til eight at night. She comes home at like eight forty-five at night and leaves around eight -thirty in the morning, nowadays. I mean, it was different back then. But my grandmother came to America to help her out a little, and my grandmother worked as well. I’m not sure how much money she earned, but I guess my grandmother had herself covered, and my mom had us two covered, but my grandmother used to take me from home after school and look after me during the weekends, and my mom just spent time with me on Sundays, and sometimes at night. Q: Did you feel different from other kids, then? I mean, you didn’t have a father, and you were, it sounds like, almost pretty poor. Tight. Money was tight. A: I felt different. I mean, I think I was a very greedy and selfish kid. And I never really understood what was going on in the family. I just saw what other kids had. And we also had this, these relatives that were very well off. And every time we went over there for New Year’s, it’s just, you know, I see their---I see them, and I see myself, and I just ask why are we so different? Why is this---like why do we have this kind of like class difference? And, I mean, as I grew older and I just understood more and things changed then, I just realized that this is the life I have and I have to deal with it, and if I want to get myself out of it, just work harder in school and get a better education, and come out and support myself and my mom. Q: So what are you studying now? K.: English and Studio Art. Q: And how is that going to get you a better future, do you think? K.: Well, for one thing, I have a college education. I have my diploma, and, you know, obviously, no matter what I do I’ll get a better job than my mom. I won’t earn just nine thousand a year. I mean, anywhere above that will be a better start, you know? I’m planning to do something in communications. In the field of communications. So, I’m not sure about my future. We’ll see how that goes. Q: Now, did you mom work when she was in Hong Kong? K.: She worked. Q: As what? K.: As a seamstress again. I know, she didn’t really like school, I mean, she had the opportunity to go to school and get a better education, I guess, but she never really liked it too much I guess because she came from China and the people in Hong Kong are really discriminating, even against their own people, and at first she had an accent, so the school---the kids in school didn’t really like her as much, and she was never really good in English, so, like I guess she found it hard to fit in to the people in school, and so she got out of school fairly, fairly early and started----like her first job, she told me, was doing something with flowers, like plastic flowers, like sewing them together or something, like putting them in strands. I guess a lot of people did that. Q: How did your mom come to be a seamstress in Chinatown? K.: Well, it was what she did in Hong Kong. I mean, it was what she does best at. So she came here, and that was just the only job she looked for, I guess. I always tell her to try to get out of the field. I mean, I keep telling her, like, now’s a good chance, like, “you’re changing factories, you’re going to another factory, why don’t you do something else, like maybe cleaning, or housecleaning, or something else that’s not as strenuous, and that doesn’t have that kind of hours.” But there’s just, there’s something with like her union, she gets this insurance, like a health insurance, and she’s just afraid of losing that. And so she just keeps going back to the same field. Also cause she’s lazy. I guess she’s----I also think she’s scared of the outside world, like outside of seamstress. Like, “That’s the only career I can get, you know, anything else I’m going to probably be like---” you know, I don’t know, like some people might like, do something to her. What is she afraid of? You know, like, try something new---I mean--- Q: Did you--- A:---I can’t talk her out of it. Q: As a kid, did you spend time with her in the factories at all? K.: When I was really young, before my grandmother came, like, you know, I told you, I was a really bad kid. Back in the days, like, when I was in kindergarten or day care or whatever, I was very, like I pulled a lot of tantrums, and the kindergarten teachers or daycare teachers used to like, they actually gave my mom advice to send me to some shrink or like a child therapy or something. And my mom was just like---I gave her a lot of problems, so like it was really hard to find babysitters for me, and also the baby sitters were all like, some of the babysitters she found for me were really mean to me as well. Like, they used to abuse me. And my mom didn’t want---Oh, like, there was one babysitter who was really good with me, but then, unfortunately she had to baby-sit her own granddaughter, and her granddaughter used to abuse me all the time. Like, every time we were together, her granddaughter used to hit me. I don’t remember any of this, but my mom just said that one time, like, you know, every time the babysitter turned her down, like, you know, she’d be like, “what do I do tomorrow, like, which babysitter can I get tomorrow?” And so finally, like, she just had to go back to her boss and say, “You know, this is not working out, like, I have to leave early to take care of my daughter, and you know, no babysitters are willing to take care of her, so like, you know, I have to take care of her, so either you fire me, or I have to, you have to give me those hours to take care of my kid.” And ever since then, I think, like sometimes like when she really had too much work to do, she would bring me to her factory and, I don’t know, put me in the little box and I could play with something in there. Like, I’d bring my toys and I played in there. I remember very faintly, ‘cause it was not a very long period of time. Like I think maybe it was one or two years that I had to do that. And after I went to first grade, my grandmother came. Q: So, did you travel outside of Chinatown at all? Did your mother take you to Central Park? Did you go to other parts of New York much? K.: When I lived---when I had those weekends with my dad, I remember going outside of Chinatown. My dad knows English, and he speaks it, he speaks it pretty fluently. I mean, with an accent of course. I mean, I used to go to Coney Island a lot. I remember that. And we went to see halls sometimes, I mean. But with my mom, the furthest we went I think would be 34th Street, and maybe Rockefeller Center, like once in a blue moon, but not really. Like, shopping in 34th Street, or SoHo or Seaport. Or City Hall. But that’s about it. I started exploring the rest of New York like at a really, old age I would say. Like, I mean, not old, I mean, ‘cause I’m only twenty-one, but like compared to other kids, I think I started exploring the rest of New York like just much later than, like, other people my age. Q: And what language do you speak at home? K.: Cantonese. Q: So you have no problem communicating with most people in Chinatown. K.: No. I think most people would say I speak it too well. As an ABC. [American-Born Chinese] Q: Do you think so? K.: I think so. I went to Hong Kong like maybe a year ago, I think a year ago, like a summer ago. And people there just could not believe that I was born and raised in New York. They were like, “Wow, you have amazing Cantonese,” like, you know, they couldn’t tell the difference. Q: Are you happy about that? K.: Right now I’m pretty happy about that. Like, after going to college, and, I mean, in the past I was not happy about it I guess, because I was different from other Asian American born Chinese. I used to be, they used to laugh at me a lot, like they used to call me like names, like I was a FOB [Fresh Off the Boat] or whatever, like “fresh off the boat,” and, you know, to be called that, as a teenager, is just one of the worst things to be. Like, you never want to be called a FOB, and like some of my closest friends used to dis (slang for disrespect) me about that. And--- Q: Because you spoke such good Chinese? K.: Yeah, because, because I was so, I was so fluent in it. And it’s, I mean, it’s funny because, like they are Chinese too, and to be, to be called that by your own people is just something that is totally, like, I don’t think that Westerners would understand that kind of like discrimination against your own kind of people, because like I guess it’s just, we’re all in America right now. And, it’s, we’re all trying to do this melting pot thing, like assimilate and become more Westernized, and understand more of Western culture, that most of us, like most of us growing up, like, teenagers growing up in New York City, we’re just so, like, absorbed into that kind of lifestyle that we forget our own culture, we forget our own heritage. And until I was in high school, until I was fortunate enough to have this like Asian and Chinese- Caucasian---she’s a mix---teacher, like, as an English teacher, who taught me to appreciate my own heritage, I think I would have always been discriminating against my own, like, people. I used to hate being Chinese, like I used to hate being like Chinese-born, and living in Chinatown. I was never proud of it. And at one point I tried, I really tried to, like reject it from my own, like, like, I just rejected it, like my mom used to send me to Chinese school, and I hated it. I never wanted to learn Chinese or learn how to like write it or speak it or whatever, and when I----I guess there was at one point, I tried to like pretend that I didn’t know Chinese at all, like when I went back to Hong Kong the first time, which was when I was in third grade, I pretended that I didn’t know it at all. Like when people spoke to me, I just pretended like, “Oh, I don’t know what you’re trying to say,” like, I don’t understand. But ever since going to college, I started to take a Chinese class, I mean, I wish I had just understood it more and realized this back in the days because by now I would have been really good in it. I wouldn’t have to like waste my college credits, like five credits for one class to do this like at such a late, later age. I mean, if I have kids, I would want them to speak Chinese too. I would want them to be bilingual. I mean, understand what I’ve gone through, and, I mean explain it to them differently, you know. I mean, you can, you can assimilate into the Western culture, but you also have to know where you’re from. Q: Now, what kind of junior high and high school did you go to in Chinatown? Was it mostly Asian kids, or a good mix? A: Um, well, in elementary school I went to PS 2 and like, they used have these, like “smart classes,” and it’s so funny because the smart classes would always be, like, almost ninety percent Chinese, and maybe like five percent white, and the rest was like one African-American and one Hispanic in there, and it was, it was mostly Chinese. Like, I was always like separated from other like races, I guess, because, I don’t know why, I’m not trying to stereotype, but I guess those Asian kids worked a lot harder than the other, um, like, other races. And so, I guess it’s also because of the parents, and how the parents push their kids. And so, like I went to PS 2 and I went to IS 131, which is, they’re both in Chinatown, and these two schools, I was mostly surrounded by Chinese students. And then I went to Environmental Studies, which is a really diverse school. But even so, I guess because I was shaped by my junior high school, and by my elementary school, that even going to such a diverse school I ended up hanging out with mostly Asian or Chinese students. Q: And they were, like you, ABCs, that didn’t speak as good Chinese as you did? K.: A lot of them were. Some of them were born in China, but they immigrated here. And, but they immigrated at such a young age, so they all spoke English really well. Q: Do you think you resented your mother for kind of keeping you in Chinatown? K.: She thinks that. I mean, sometimes I think about it. Maybe. I mean, what I resent is not that she kept me in Ch---I mean, I have a lot to appreciate of her. Like, you know, there are so many things she did for me that I have to appreciate, and I can’t blame her for some of her choices. I mean, if I were in her shoes of course I would have done things differently, to have made it easier for my, my children, but she just had so much to, you know, so much to put into her consideration that I can’t resent her for that stuff. I can’t resent her for living in Chinatown. I mean, that’s all she could afford, you know, living here. I wish things were done differently, but I can’t resent her for what she chose to do. Q: So it sounds like when you were younger, you weren’t so thrilled about living here, and you got picked on a lot by your friends, because of your Chinese-ness, but now, as you’re older, those things don’t bother you as much, or---- K.: No, I’m actually glad I grew up in Chinatown. I mean, I’m glad I have this background, I can say I was born and raised in Chinatown, you know, I, I used to be very, I remember one time I went to London and I told someone I lived on Pike Street, and I knew they wouldn’t know where I lived, and, but then they just said, “Chinatown, right?” and I felt really angry at that person. It’s kind of like they were condescending to a point, like, you live in the dumps, the ghetto or whatever. And, I mean, yeah, I do, so like, I mean, at that point I was really angry, but now I think about it, like what is there to be, to be not proud of? You know, I lived in Chinatown, but you know what? I’m having a college education, I’m getting myself out of this place. I mean, you know, it’s shaped me to be the person I am, so I don’t have anything to not be proud of, you know? It’s, it’s who I am. Q: But you want to leave. If you had the financial means, you would leave Chinatown. You wouldn’t live here by choice. K.: I would want to live in a place where, where I can have like a bigger apartment and just, it’s just Chinatown is like, Yeah, I would want to leave. Simply put, I want to leave. But, I still want to come back. It’s not a, it’s not a place---it’s not that I want to forget about this place totally and erase it from, like my history, it’s just that I want to leave because, you know, I want to live in a better place. Like, and Chinatown doesn’t permit that, like there’s no like, you know, three bedroom apartment and you know, like a big apartment or a house that I can have in Chinatown. They’re all like tenement buildings or little studio apartments, and it just doesn’t accommodate for what I want to have in my future. Q: So your mother is still working now, as a seamstress? K.: Yes. Q: And her earnings are still about the same? K.: About the same. Q: Do you think she’ll---what will she do, if she retires? K.: When she retires? I don’t know. I mean, she had some problems with her knee, and so she’s been asking me, like if I start working is it okay if she stops working for year or two and then she works again, like just to, like pass time. I mean, I know she wouldn’t want to just sit at home and not do anything. So, I mean, I don’t think she would retire anytime soon. Like, she would want to just work, but not work as hard----like, work knowing that this isn’t the only money that we’re going to have. Q: And has her work been effected by September 11th ? Because so many factories, garment factories have closed in Chinatown. K.: Yes. Um, after September 11, her factory closed for about two or three weeks. There was, maybe like a month as she Q: Hold on [cross talk about tape] Has your mom’s work been effected at all by September 11th? K.: Um, yes. After September 11th, her factory closed for about like a month, and so she didn’t have any work to do for that period of time. And we lived really close to the site. We live on Pike Street and Madison, and, um, we see the bridge and we used to be able to see, like the Twin Towers, and we had a very nice skyline actually, but, and so when September 11th happened, my mom actually got to see one of the towers falling down, and so like it was really bad air. For a period of time, it really, like, it just smelled really badly. And, she didn’t get to work, and didn’t, like, there was a period of time when she had like no income I guess, and so that was pretty hard on her. But then there was like these recovery funds, I mean, there was some Red Cross funds or whatever, and if you lived in this area or worked in this area or qualified for some financial aid, and so she got a lot of that, which we were very thankful for. We got this purifier, like air purifier to put in our apartment, and that helped a little, but, I mean, and a vacuum cleaner, all these little perks that we got because we lived in the area. But, I mean, these things were also like necessary as well. I mean, we weren’t going to go out and buy them for ourselves, but, I mean, since they gave it to us, we used it. Q: So how did your mom find out about all these relief efforts, and how, if she didn’t speak English, how did she go and apply for them? K.: Her, um, her coworkers told her about it. A lot of them, a lot of the stuff was from coworkers, like the coworkers applied first and told her about it and urged her to apply for them. And I think there was one fund that I, like, I heard about it, like her coworkers told her about it, and then she told me about it, and, but then she said, “I’m not going to apply for it, I don’t want to apply.” I’m like, “Why? It’s thousands of dollars, like, why would you not going to apply?” And so I just got really angry at her, like she was just, you know, she’s so passive, she doesn’t want to do these things. And so I got really angry at her, I yelled at her---I was in college---and like we got into a big fight, and then later, I came back from college and then I found out she applied for it. So, I mean, I think it was ‘cause her coworkers just kept pushing her to apply, and when she went there, like I think there was some Chinese-speaking people who were, um, who offered their help, like they were volunteers there who spoke Chinese and who helped her fill out the applications and stuff. Q: So when she wasn’t able to work, was those relief funds enough for you two to survive on? K.: I think so. I think she, she was really happy when she got the relief funds. Um, she said, I think she said that they were more than enough. I mean, I’m not really sure, because I was in college, and she, it’s not, she wasn’t really supporting me at that point. I think all she had to pay for was like a very minimal amount of college tuition, and I was living off of the money my dad gave me, so I’m not really sure how her money, like, was used. Q: So you saw September 11 on the news, on television. K.: Yes. Q: What did you do, immediately? K.: I called home. I called my mom, but---well, all the phone lines were busy, and, you know, we, school was cancelled after, like I went to one class, and then the rest of the day was cancelled, and I just watched television all day, and tried to call my mom, but the phone lines weren’t working, so I just kind of like sat there and stuff in front of the television, and like, looked. Watched it. Q: Were you really worried about her? K.: I was really worried. I was worried that she went to work and couldn’t go back home, because, like, I, I mean on the news they say, like all these places were blocked and stuff, and at one point I finally reached her or my sister reached her, and like somehow, like I went online and my sister told me that my mom was fine, and that was when I felt, like, relief, but like----I found out pretty early, I think like maybe four hours after it happened I found out like she was fine, so I wasn’t worried after. Q: And aside from losing some work, has your mom’s life been changed in other ways? K.: I think, like, just the economy hasn’t been like, it just hasn’t been well after September 11, and so she’s, the prices of each garment she makes has decreased, and she hasn’t had, like, like there’s not, she doesn’t earn as much but then there’s also these relief funds. Like there’s this 9/11 recovery, like thing, like with going to school, and this program that like teaches, like, helps garment workers get a better education or learn English for thirteen weeks, and learn computer, like how to use a computer. And that has helped her. I mean, they got paid to go to school, and I know she learned from it, so---- Q: But she will continue to be a seamstress. K.: Yes. Which is something I don’t understand. I mean, every---all this, I actually taught one of these classes for two days, and I kind of understood from all of these seamstresses who applied to this program that they, they just don’t plan to leave the, leave this career field. I mean, they just, they want to get the money, and they don’t mind going to school to get to earn this money. Like, come on now, going to school and getting paid for it is better than, you know, working hard at, like, in front of a sewing machine. But at the same time, after these thirteen weeks, they’re not planning to change their life at all. Life goes back to normal, it’s just that I got a little bit more money, a little bit more cash from going to school. And so I, I mean, I don’t---I think it’s pointless that there’re these, these like classes. And like, when I worked for this, this, um, like, this company, like who teaches the seamstresses, um, when they hired me, they hired me on a very like, very unprofessionally. Like they just kind of glanced at my resume and say, “You know how to speak Chinese, right?” And I had this, maybe like five-minute um, like, five-minute training session, or not training session but like testing me out or whatever. And this, this woman she spoke American, like she spoke in English, and I, I was, um---She told me to speak in Chinese and, and teach her, so I’m just like, “You don’t understand what I’m trying to say, so even if I’m trying to teach you in Chinese, you don’t know anything, like you’re not understanding anything I’m trying to say.” After maybe like two to five minutes, she was like, “Okay, you’re hired, like come, go to, come to work tomorrow, and, and, like, you’re going to have to teach this class for how many, how many days,” and then after two day, after two days of working for her, she fired me, because, um, like, I guess some, some of the like, students complained that I was too like strict and they needed some teacher that was easier. So they were very unprofessional about it. Like, they’re, they’re not, I mean, they’re just, like they just want to play around. Like even, even the company, the company who hired me, themselves, they were not like serious about it. All they wanted to do was get this money from the relief fund, like get the sponsoring money or whatever, and, and like, you know, just like teach these people and go through thirteen weeks of like easy-going time, they’re like no problems rise, then that’s okay, but if any problems come, come about, they just want to like cover it up and like you know, not let anyone know about it, you know. And after like thirteen weeks, you get your money, I get my money, then we’re happy. Like, that, that’s the way I see it, you know. It’s just very unprofessional, and I think it’s just, the whole thing is a conspiracy, like a scam. Q: The whole relief effort? K.: I mean, the whole, like, educating the seamstress thing. Like I just think the whole thing is pretty much a scam. And for my mom, like her, like her education program or whatever, um, she, like, they, like her boss, started getting like scared because all these, all these seamstresses were, were like leaning toward quitting and doing this education program, and so, like the boss went to um, went to the union I think and told them about it, and they were like, “This is not going to work out, if this continues, then my factory is going to be closed, and so if this is going to happen, like, you know, can we like, you know, try to figure something out and like, you know, compromise, like maybe have like a class in Chinatown, so they can just go to work in Chinatown and then in the afternoon come back to work?” So this is what happened and so, like, they got to go back to China---like they had a class in Chinatown to work and then they go, and then after class they go, they go to work. And then for six weeks, they did the learning in class thing. And then there was this, there was supposed to be six weeks in the computer room, too, but then they just made six weeks in the computer, like in the morning is computer and then in the afternoon or something is like writing or like a writing session. Or they’d bulk up the days, where like Tuesdays is computer, and Thursdays is computer, and then the rest of the days were writing. And then, and then, the six weeks that were left, they ended up teaching like how to, better ways in like sewing, or better ways of using like the sewing machines, which is---my mom has worked in the sewing industry for like twenty years. Does she need to be teached, like to be taught how to use the sewing machine, again? Like they were, like, I looked at some of her homework assignments, and it was just, you know, saying “button” in English, you know, and like learning how to write these parts in English. Does she really need to learn what a, like, how do you say “a button” in English, you know, like I’m saying this in English, but I’m, you know, of course she’s saying “button” in Chinese, and I’m like, you know, teaching her like these words, like how to say a, like how to write “pocket,” or like spell out “pocket” or “pants” or learn what kind of department she’s working in. Come on. When she goes to another factory, she does not need to hand in a resume saying like, “I worked in the pocket’s department.” Like, you know, they’re not going to look at the resume and be like, “Oh, you worked in the pocket’s department. Okay, you know, I’m going to like raise you and let you work in the management department. Like, that’s not going to happen. She’s going to work in the pocket department again when she goes to another factory, and no resume is going to be involved. They teach you how to write a resume and everything she writes in the resume is, everything dealing with the factory, you know, like--- Q: Well, then why did your mom go through the program? K.: To get the money--- Q: And that was it? K.: Yeah, to get the money, to learn, to learn English. I mean, she wanted to learn English and she, I asked her like what her goal was. And she told me that she wanted to learn about the computers so that she could, like, go online to talk to me when I’m in school, and like, maybe write me an email like once in a while, and then she also wanted to learn enough English so she can get by. Like, so she can order her own food, or, like, you know, just commute around New York City, like, without having like a problem. Like, if she gets lost she can ask her way around. Q: Do you think your mother is afraid in some ways, she’s scared because she’s a little bit handicapped? K.: Yeah, very much. That’s why she doesn’t want to move out of Chinatown. That’s why she wants to live here all her life. Q: Do you want to share us the agencies that you work with? You don’t have to, but---Do you think they’re typical of a lot of the programs out there? K.: I can’t say. I mean, I only worked for them, but I can’t say that they’re, they were---I can’t say that that’s what everyone is like, you know. I mean, I know for, my mom had a, had an American teacher. She had several American teachers and a couple of translators, and she though the American teachers were---she liked her American teachers, but she didn’t like the translators. I mean, I ---I mean, there are different situations, I mean some companies might have been serious about it, it’s just the one I worked for, I didn’t think they were serious. Q: What would have been useful for someone like your mom? What kind of training would have been useful for her? K.: Thirteen weeks is nothing. I went to school for, like, so many years. I mean, like, it’s been like around twenty years that I’ve went to school. You think someone who doesn’t speak English at all, who is around fifty years old, can go to school for thirteen weeks and learn English and move on to a new career field? That’s just wishful thinking, come on, now, please, you know? Like, long-term education. Q: Do you think that’s what those programs are really for? Is it really to get people to change career, or to better themselves for the field that they’re already in? K.: The goal, that, their mission statement is to have them eventually change their career field. I think this mission statement is just a little too much that they’re aiming for. Don’t, don’t write a mission statement like that, and then, if you’re not going to urge these seamstresses to change their career field. Don’t write a mission statement like that. What this program does is just help, it helps them temporarily. It gives them money temporarily. And that money, of course is going to helpful. I mean, for my mom it was helpful, like, you know, we had a, like at that point you know, she had more money, and working only in factory she wouldn’t have had. But in terms of learning English, or, or, working, being in these education programs to start a new life? That’s just, you know, BS. It won’t happen, you know. Q: But realistically, what can your mother do without---other than sewing? K.: Realistically? I don’t know, I mean, if she learned a little bit more English, like, so that she can at least communicate, like say, like, “How are you doing?” or, or, understand what people say when they’re like, “Bathroom,” like, you know, there are things she understands, but, like, if she can get over her fear and like speak English, maybe she can work in like, you know, housecleaning---I mean, I mean, of course they’re all going to be like blue collar jobs. I don’t expect her to be working in a post office, you know, where you have to speak to all different kinds of, you know, races, and know English fluently. Like, whatever job it is, she won’t be able to work in like a, like a English-speaking environment. Q: Would you prefer your mom to be cleaning houses rather than sewing? K.: There are like places where you can like, you know, do housecleaning, or like, just, you know, baby-sit, like those kind of jobs. I mean, they’re much more easy going than working in a factory, where, like, it’s hot in the summer, like, and, you know, you’re breathing like really bad and dusty air, like, just the working environment is---and like, there are like little rats like running around that you can’t see, and that’s why they have so many cats in there, because these cats are the ones who are like you know, keeping the rats away. But like, my mom puts a bag of, of like bread on the floor and she brings it home and like I see a little hole in there, with like breadcrumbs around it, like, you know, like, someone took a bite of it, you know, like, not my mom so it’s definitely some rat or cat. That’s kind of---- Q: But does she ever complain about her working conditions? K.: I don’t think she can complain about it. She’s never complained about it. I mean, she complains about how it’s really hot in the summer, but, you know, I mean, if she’s housecleaning, or, or, like babysitting or whatever, like, this is still, I mean, it’s still a blue collar job, but at least the working environment, I mean, if you’re living in a house and it needs to be cleaned, that kind of environment won’t be as bad as a, like, a factory, you know. Q: Has your mom’s health been effected by these long years of working? K.: She has knee problems, it’s from, from sewing. She has back problems, she has neck problems. And like, you know, every once in a while, her neck starts to hurt, and she like gives me this Chinese medicine to rub it on her. Q: And does the union’s health insurance cover her? K.: That’s the only thing, like, her health insurance is really good, and she loves the health insurance, and if she changes her career she won’t get health insurance. Like if she baby-sits, she won’t get babysitting health insurance, you know? So that’s why she’s unwilling to give up her job. Q: And all these years, your mother has never thought of going back to Hong Kong or China? K.: No, because, because I----she wants me to have---like, there are benefits in America, like with Social Security, like, you know there’s a retirement program, and, like all these things is what, you know America can offer, which, when you go back to Hong Kong, you can’t have these things, so---I think that’s why she likes America more. Q: And you’ve never had any desire to live---Well, you don’t know what it’s like to live anywhere else but America. K.: Not really. I mean, I studied abroad in London for like a semester, but that is not really like realistic, like realistic experience, you know, because the school took care of me and--- Q: So, do you feel super close to your mom because there’s been just the two of you for so long? K.: We’re very, we’re very close in that sense. Like, I mean, when I talk to my other Chinese friends, like Chinese-American friends, like they kind of envy me, because I have this like close relationship with my mom, I mean we can talk about a lot of things, but it’s also like really frustrating as well, because, like, I mean I have a close relationship with her, but I think it’s because she’s so passive, and I’m so aggressive, the like our personalities really clash, and ever since I went to college, I guess my view like opened up, like, I see much more than just Chinatown, and like, it’s just very different for me now. And I just want something different. I can’t just, I can’t, after seeing how the world is out there, I can’t just come back to Chinatown and be, and be satisfied with it. You know, I can’t just live this life forever. Like, I need to, I want something better for both of us. I want her to stop working so that her knee can better. You know, I mean if she keeps working her knee won’t ever get better. And she keeps complaining about it, but what can I do for her? You know, we have to work, we have to support ourselves, and until I get my job, my ideal job, and until I get that like forty K a year, you know, there’s nothing I can do for her. Q: Do you feel that’s a burden? Do your American friends think the way you do, that they want to take care of their parents? K.: I think that for me, it’s definitely a responsibility. I have to take care of my mom. I mean, she’s given up so much for me. Like, when I was a child, that now, like, I know like, I know when I graduate out of college, living alone is not an option. I have to live with my mom. Like, and a lot of my Western friends and Chinese friends, like, they, they don’t, you know, they don’t understand it, you know. They think, like, why can’t you just, you know, “Live your own life, you need the independence, like, in the, you know have to be independent and stuff.” But they don’t understand, like, you know, I mean, if my mom had not done the things that she’s done for me, then I would not be here. It’s as simple as that. So I don’t---it’s not that I don’t want to, either. Like, I really want to live with her, I want to take care of her. Like, I want to give her, like, something, like, for what she’s done for me, and, I mean, of course, sometimes I wonder, like, how life would be, if I can live alone, like if I can, like, have an apartment and live with all my, like, friends, that, you know, it’s wishful thinking, but that’s just not realistic, like--- Q: Well, you’re kind of independent now, you’re in college, at---where is the university again? K.: In Ohio. Q: And why did you choose to be all the way in Ohio? K.: Um, I wanted to leave New York City. I wanted to see how the world is out there. Like, I know New York City is a bubble itself, I mean, not just Chinatown, but the city is a bubble, and so I wanted to remove myself and see, like, how life is, not in---suburban life, like outside in the country, or, or---just not New York. And also, I knew that if---I knew that after college I would have to live with my mom forever, and I wanted to experience living by myself and get those four years of experience and then, you know--- Q: And are you liking it out there? K.: I like it out there. I like living. I mean, I live with, three, like, three people, like three girls, right now. Like they were my friends in college, and we have a house, and it’s really like easy going, I mean, I like that kind of lifestyle, but, you know, like after college it’s going to have to end. Like all this, all this fun and games, like they’re, they’re going to have to be kaput. And then it’s going to be working and working. Q: You don’t seem to be very much looking forward to living with your mother again, and it sounds like there’s a whole lot of responsibility. K.: There is a lot of responsibility, but, I mean, I’m sure, I’m not too thrilled about it, I guess now because we’ve going through a lot of frustrations. I mean, we’re really, we’re both really stressed out right now, and I mean, I guess like living alone and like four years in college, has made me to be really like, independent, and, like some of the things, like, that I used to be able to endure, like how she like wants me to go to, like, at a certain time, like, you know, these things, you don’t need to take of me on that. Like, I know when I need to go to bed. Like, I mean, if I want to go to bed at three or four in the morning, like, that’s my problem, like, I’ll, I’ll get up later in the morning. Like, I know how to live my life now. I’m twenty-one years old. You don’t need to tell me when to eat or when to go to bed, or like what to eat, or like, what to do. You know, like that kind of stuff, like, I’m not a kid anymore, like, these things---I think she just needs to understand that I’m not, like, ten years old, that she doesn’t need to take care of me, in that sense anymore. And I guess there’s just like, I mean, I’ve been coming back, like every so often, like during breaks and stuff, and that’s why I can’t like get used to her and her nagging and stuff, but I feel like once we get to live with each other on a long-term basis, then we can develop an understanding and compromise with each other more. I mean, in terms of living with her, like, on a long-term basis, I think it’s just, we both have to compromise in order for it to work out. I mean, I’m not scared about it, I mean, I’m not like, not thrilled about it, I mean, I’m not as thrilled about it as I would wish to be, but, but it’s something we have to do. Q: What do you think is the stigma attached to living in Chinatown? Like, you said when you went to London you told people, Oh, you lived on Pike Street, and they said, “Oh, Chinatown.” What do you think the average person thinks when you say “I live in Chinatown”? K.: I think it’s, they think that Chinatown is very dirty and is full of tenements and that, like if you live in Chinatown, then you must not have had a well-off life. Like, I think there’s just a whole bunch of stereotypes connected to Chinatown itself that it’s, it’s the slum, you know, you know, you walk on the streets, people, like on East Broadway, for instance, like people are just like squatting and talking on telephones, and they have like no, they’re discourteous, they have no manners whatsoever, they’re impolite, they push around, they don’t say, “Excuse me,” they don’t say, “Sorry,” they’re not---Like, I mean, it was my sister and I were walking in Chinatown, and she has a kid, we’re pushing the baby cart, everywhere else in New York City, people would move away and like not try to push you, and if you have to go through a door, like, they would hold the door for you. But only in Chinatown, men actually try to push you away even when you’re like with a baby carriage, you know? And, so like these, these Chinese people, like they just have no kind----they have no, like they just don’t love where they live in. Like, this is the place where you live in. Take care of it, for God’s sake! Don’t throw garbage on the streets, like it’s the dirtiest place that you can actually be in, in the city. I, I feel. Like, you know, we have these fish markets, and it just smells, it stinks, I hate going on Mott Street, like, they have like, whenever I have to go on Mott Street to buy food, like, or groceries, with my mom, it’s like these people, they just like treat the streets like trash. Like they spit like all over the place, like they throw garbage, they did into their noses, god, you know, go back to your home, like, go to the bathroom, or like, you know, somewhere where you can wash your hands, like, you know, like, I don’t want to see it, I don’t want you to touch me after you’ve touched your like, like your nose or whatever. That’s disgusting! Q: So are you saying Chinese people are dirtier maybe than other---- K.: Yeah! I mean, I don’t want to stereotype, like, you know, I mean, these are, like, my people, in the end, but ultimately, but, like, you know, they, we, people look down on us, because they are the people who they are. Like, I mean, if you ‘re not going to be more civilized about yourself, like, you know, if you’re not going to become civilized and if you’re not going to respect yourself and respect the place you’re living, other people won’t respect you. That’s the way I see it. I mean, I’m angry, I’m angry when other people like look down on us and when they condescend on us, upon us, of course I’m very angry about it, and I wish that, like, there wasn’t such a thing. But I can’t, even I can’t help looking down on these people when they are doing the things they do. And in terms of like, like, having their voice out, like, you know, we have this Chinese poem. I actually wrote about this when I was a kid. Like, this poem that’s like they say, you know, withholding or resistance and like trying to take in everything, and if you take in everything like, you know, the ocean will look wider, and [recites a poem in Chinese] You know? Have you heard of that? Q: You have to translate that into English, so that people who don’t speak Chinese---what does that poem mean? K.: Well, it means, that like, well, what, what, what the poem, it’s not really a poem, it’s more like a saying, like a two-line saying, like with--- Q: A proverb. K.: Yes. Um, and it’s about just, resisting, resistance, like, how much you can take, how much you can withhold, how much people can step on you, and you can just take it in and not fight back. Like, and if you can just hold it in and like, you know, and withhold it for awhile, then, like, after you step back you will see that the world is much bigger and that, like the waves are silent and then you won’t like, you won’ tactually move anything. Like everything is just the way it is. Like, you won’t like---I don’t know, how to translate it---- Q: ---Is that accurate for Chinese people? Is that what you’re saying? K.: That’s what I learned, since I was a kid. Like, and when I was really young, like in elementary school, I used to be bullied by this Hispanic person, like this Hispanic, like, student, who was my age. She lived in my building, and she used to bully me all the time, and my grandmother used to pick me up from school, like after, like at around like six o’clock, after daycare, I mean. And then this Hispanic, like, girl, would wait in front of our apartment door, just so that she can like get the happiness of the day, like, you know, like, she gets to slap me around, a little bit, and she feels much happier about it, like it’s her passing time. And one time it was just horrible. My grandmother picked me up, and this girl, like, maybe in second grade, like, eight years old or seven years old, she slapped my grandmother! Like a fifty-year-old or sixty-year-old like elderly grandmother, she was able to slap her around, and like, she took my headband off of me and broke it, and threw a tennis ball at her. And like, this kind of abuse, if you were strong about yourself, like if you, if you, if there was no, this proverb, if this was not in our minds, like, we could have like gotten help, like I could have went to the principal. Like, I didn’t have to endure this kind of like, life. Q: What did you do, when the girl did that? K.: We didn’t do anything, for like almost half a year, I had to go through this kind of like constant bullying, and constant just like, constant abuse by this girl, and after half a year, finally I was full of it. I just went to my mom, like, “I can’t take this anymore. You have to do something about it. You’re my mom. If you can’t protect me, who is going to protect me?” And like, my grandmother can’t protect me, my grandmother is being abused by this little girl, and so like finally my mom was like, “Okay, we’re going to go to the principal, we’re going to like, you know, get some help, like, you know, we’re going to like, rat her out, finally.” And so after that, you know, it finally stopped, she stopped doing it. But this has taught---I think that, that happened in second grade, and that has really taught me to be who I am, to be like, as loud, and as aggressive, to voice my opinion. I mean, like, all these, all these like Chinese people living in Chinatown, like they want all these things, like they think that the government isn’t like, you know, giving them enough attention. They think that the government isn’t like, you know, treating us right, like, especially during the blackout, you know, Chinatown and Lower East Side was the the last, the last, like area to get their electricity back. You know, we were the last place to be recognized. Queens was one of the [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO] Q: The blackout in 2003, Chinatown was one of the last areas in New York City to get electricity back. K.: Yeah, Lower East Side, and not just Chinatown. Q: And why do you think that is? K.: I think it’s because, you know, we’re just disrespected, like, everyone living in the Lower East Side is just not respected. Like, you know, the government doesn’t really give a, like a crap about, you know, about this area, because, you know, people who are living in this area, like, are just not as well off as the Upper West Side or the Upper East or whatever, and so, like, we get the last cut of the cake, you know, the last piece. And so, like, it’s just not fair, you know, like---It’s also I think it’s because, like, in terms of coming from Chinatown, and coming from like a Chinese point of view, I feel like these Chinese people, they don’t like to, like, you know, they don’t like to cause any trouble and like they don’t like to, you know, say anything about what they need or what they want. Like, they need something or they want something, but they don’t do anything about it. They just like keep it inside themselves and they’re just like, okay, if I can’t have it, fine, I’ll live without it. But like, in terms of like, necessities or like, something dealing with politics, like, you know, if none of us vote, and if none of like write down that we’re Chinese and we’re voting, of course, like, we have such a small portion in like, the American voting process, that like of course like no kind of government will actually take us into consideration ‘cause we’re, we have such a small, like, voice. Like we’re just, we’re a minority that can, that can work hard, and like, like as a stereotype, you know, we can work hard, and like, you know, climb up the ladder and with, with our, like, bare hands or whatever. But in terms of like, giving into the government, or like you know, showing them that we care, or showing them that we actually like the place that we live in, or like, you know, dealing with politics, they just don’t do anything about it. Like, voting---“Oh, that’s just a waste of time.” You know, like my mom, had, didn’t even vote until recently, until like, for Bloomberg, that was the mayor that she, like, that she actually, that was the election that she voted on, like, first. And that was only because she wanted to see how, like, voting is like, and after that, after voting that one time, she didn’t vote anymore again. And so like, you know, it’s like that’s the way every other Chinese person thinks. Like they don’t like to give to the community in order to get something back. Like, they just think, like, you know, giving something that’s this little is just a waste of time, but they don’t understand the long term, like, benefits, like, an advantage of them just doing, wasting like an hour of their time to go vote, and like, maybe in the future like the American government will finally recognize that Chinese people aren’t like as quiet as we’re stereotyped to be, and we’re not as like, passive as, as they think that we are. And by the way, maybe one day they will respect us, you know? Q: Well, your generation. You’re going to---you are different from your parents, right? You have a voice, you have an education, you speak English, so do you, what, what do you think your generation can do to make a difference in that way? K.: I think my generation, I think that there are many types of people in my generation, and I am just one type of them. Like there are other people my age who are wasting their lives and going to like Grant Street Park and playing handball, like, twenty-four seven. You know? Like there are many people, like, I mean, my generation, I mean, true, like, we have an education, we know how to speak English, but, I mean, until, I don’t think that all of us recognize that, you know, we’re being discriminated, that like, we have to do something to change it. Like, this is not like a, this change is not going to happen until we all recognize it, and I don’t think we have all recognized this. Like, and more me, like, it’s just such a small portion of people who are like, active like me, like who want something different, who want to change. Q: So you think when you’re done with school, you might come back and do something for the community? K.: I would like to do something for the community. I mean, right now, in school, I’m like part of the Chinese Students Association. There wasn’t even a Chinese Students Association in my school that was chartered, and we just had to work really hard to charter this organization. Like, I think William, who is working in this museum, he was one of the founding fathers of this organization, but even when he graduated, our organization wasn’t even chartered yet. And the only reason was because the Chinese in my school was not united enough. We weren’t like, we didn’t have, like, a loud voice, we didn’t have enough student membership in order to get ourselves chartered. I mean if this, if the Chinese students don’t even want a place or a union for themselves, then of course the school wouldn’t recognize that they need it. Like, if they don’t need it, why do we have to give them one? That’s what the school thinks. And so, like, we’re so disorganized, and we’re so not unified. I just think like Chinese is one of the Asian, like, one of the Asians that are the most not, like, united. That’s---I don’t understand why. Like, like, just Chinese people don’t like to help out each other, they don’t like to ask each other for help, they’re just like, everyone is just, you know, selfish, and, like, I mean I guess I am stereotyping again, like, not all of us are like that, but, you know, in general, it’s just, you know, no one likes to, like, they don’t, we’re not like the Koreans, we’re not like the, you know, like, you know, the Japanese, like in school they all have their little like groups that like to help each other out, like even if they don’t know each other well, they know about each other, they like to say “Hi” to each other, but the Chinese, they just like live in their little world, they live in their own room, they don’t like to like, you know, they don’t like to assimilate, they don’t like to, like, reach out to people. They’re just, you know, they’re like, squished. Q: You seem to have a lot of, I don’t know, anger, or rage in you. K.: I’m angry because I don’t understand why, like if they know that there’s something better, why wouldn’t they want to like, have that, you know? If there are students who are so enthusiastic about having a student union, and like uniting us, and like building a bridge so that, you know, all of us from different backgrounds can like, you know, unify and like communicate with each other, and like foster an understanding for each other, why wouldn’t they want something like that? It’s something good. Why wouldn’t they want to, like, have anything to do with us, you know? It took us forever to like, get, like, the student membership that we have now, and most of it are like the Chinese-Americans, like, American-born Chinese, who are like from a, like the college background. Like even in my school, there’s like such a, like a gap, like there’s the conservatory, and there’s the college, and the conservatory, the students in the conservatory are mostly, like, you know, students coming from China or Hong Kong or Taiwan, or, like, you know, other Asian countries, or like, the international countries coming to the conservatory to study music, ‘cause we have a really good department in music, and like these students who are here for four years, they just don’t want to like, get out of the conservatory. They stay there their whole entire four years, and, like, go there from morning to like, night time, and practice all day. They don’t even want to understand, like, like, anything else about living in America, or anything else about, like other students around them. And so, like, you know, and this is, this is a small example about how the bigger picture is like, you know. This college conservatory problem is exactly like what Chinatown and New York City is like. Q: So, it seems you consider yourself very Chinese. Am I correct? Especially given that you were pretty much raised in this country. K.: Yes. Q: Does your mother feel that way? Obviously, she is Chinese. Does she feel American at all? K.: I don’t know. I don’t think so. She always laughs at me, she---like, when I was young, I’d always say, “You people, you Chinese people, and us American people.” You know, I kind of like, like, differentiating us in that way. Like, I kind of like separated us. Like, in terms of identity, when I was young, but now, I don’t, I consider myself as a Chinese-American, I don’t just consider myself as a Chinese person or whatever. Like, and I think my mom considers herself as Chinese still. And I don’t think she. She thinks, when she goes back to Hong Kong, I’m pretty sure she would say something like, you know, like she would refer to America, like she would probably feel proud that she’s in America, like given that Hong Kong has such a bad economy right now, and it’s just going down the hill right now ever since it went back to Chinatown, I mean, to China. But--- Q: So has September 11th in any way made you think about all these things, of, are you proud to be an American, do you feel more patriotic? K.: I was very patriotic when September 11th happened, but I have to say that there are some things that I don’t agree with that the American government has done. Q: Such as? K.: Like the war in Iraq. I just, I mean, you know, coming from like, the college point of view, like, there’s a lot of activism in my school about this, and, I think it’s a whole conspiracy, like an oil conspiracy, like, just to get the oil, ‘cause our country doesn’t have enough of it. Q: Does your mom pressure you in any way to do anything in particular, to, any kind of profession, any specific type of profession? K.: No, because when I was choosing between like going to high schools, like what high schools to go to, I wanted to go to LaGuardia High School, which is an arts school, and I primarily wanted to work in fine arts, and like, do like wood work and stuff, and she just really freaked out. She was like, “No, you are not going to LaGuardia High School,” like “I am not letting you go into that high school, like, you just, like, that’s just not going to happen at all.” So I had the opportunity to go and like to enter that high school, but I had to forfeit it, because she was just so, she objected to it, so like, you know, by such like great, like at great lengths she was going to like forbid me to go, like, if you go, you’re not my daughter anymore, like that kind of talk that she gave me, and so like I just had to, you know, to give that up. And I always wanted to work in the arts, in the arts field and stuff, and so when---I always blamed her for that, and like, for that experience, and like not being able to go to LaGuardia, because after like, a couple of years after I went to high school, she like realized that like even going to LaGuardia I could study other things, like architecture or like design or whatever that could have benefited me, I didn’t have to just become a poor street artist, as she would think. And so she kind of like took away this opportunity for me. And for college she just didn’t want the same thing to happen again, so she was like, hands off. “I’m not giving you any opinions. Whatever college you choose to, it’s your, it’s your decision. You know, just make sure that you’re like, not going to fail, that you will get out of college in four years ‘cause that’s all I can afford, and you can succeed no matter whatever you choose. And so like, I---you know, even without her pressuring me, I still knew that I just can’t major in art. Like, art was---I chose to double major in English and Art, because, I mean, one English, I feel like as a Chinese-American growing up in Chinatown, I didn’t have that kind of exposure to the English literature. Like, I didn’t get a chance to read the paper every single day. Like, I don’t know about New York Times best sellers. Like, that’s why I wanted to major in English, to master the language, and just be exposed to the English literature like the way that, like, an American born, like a Western or a Caucasian, like, you know, just a Western family who would bring up their child and expose them to this kind of literature, like, I would want to like, know about these things. And that’s why I chose English, to benefit me in that way. And art was just an interest that I’ve always had, and that’s why. Like, I know I can’t just choose art, because if I just choose art, then my mom’s going to think, “Oh no, poor street artist.” So that’s why I chose English as well. Like English is the one that’s going to support me and art is like, you know, a sidekick. Q: So you described yourself earlier as you’re more aggressive than your mom, and because of what happened to you as a kid, being bullied on and all, does speaking out loud all the time and being more aggressive, has that changed the way people treated you? K.: I think so. Like a lot people describe me as like, loud, and blunt, very honest, and critical. Like, I’m obviously very different from a lot of my friends who are very passive, like, who resemble my mom in many ways, because they were brought up the way they were. Like, I think it’s because I lived with my mom, and I, I mean, even though I have a sister, like, I was pretty much an only child, and I got my way a lot, and my mom, it was just my mom who was teaching me, and, I mean, if she didn’t have that much time to teach me, then, I got to be the---like, I got to learn my own way and be the way I want to be, and that’s why I was able to be as loud and you know, as aggressive as I want to be. I didn’t have that kind of, mother, like father, like parenting, and like other siblings, you know, to be as my model. Like, you know, everything that I wanted to be, it was from like, it was from my own experience. Like it’s not---like I didn’t have any like examples or anything that was trying to like, keep me within the boundaries of what they expect. Q: Okay, I have to ask you a health-related question now. Chinatown supposedly has a much higher rate of asthma sufferers than other parts of New York because the air and the pollution here is quite bad. Have you had any problems with that? K.: No, I haven’t. Q: Your friends? K.: I don’t know of any of that. I mean, I did develop some allergies, but I don’t think it’s because of---I’m not sure if it’s because of Chinatown, but, like, I have allergies in the springtime, and that’s about it. Q: So after September 11th, your mother got like vacuum cleaners, air filters, that kind of thing, and they were helpful. K.: Yes. She actually developed some allergies to like, to dust. Q: After September 11th? K.: I’m not sure when it developed, but like now, I know she has some like trouble with like dust and pollen and she has to wear like, a mask, like, when she works, like a little nose mask to keep away from the, to keep the dust away. Q: Oh, maybe from all the years of working in the factories, you mean? K.: I think so. I think there’s not just---I think it’s the factory, and also, maybe like, like, the pollen, I think. She’s definitely allergic to pollen. Q: Okay. Well, we’ve covered quite a lot of things, and you obviously have a lot to say, K.. Is there anything else you want to share with us that we haven’t talked about? K.: I don’t---I can’t think of anything now. Q: Okay. Well, I wish you luck in your studies, and I hope that you do come back and do something in the community, because I think a lot of people when the opportunity to leave, they just leave and don’t come back, so. Anyhow, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us. K.: No problem. I was glad. Yeah. [laughter] [END OF SESSION] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕今天是2004年1月27日。我們現在在美洲華人博物館檔案室進行採訪。 K.﹕我知道我母親來紐約是 K.﹕“互不干涉（Don’t Ask）”的關係。我和我父親不是太親近﹐ 問﹕在紐約市哪里﹖ K.﹕我想是在St. Vincent's醫院﹐我不記得了。 問﹕在唐人街﹖ K.﹕是在唐人街嗎﹖[笑] 問﹕唐人街有一家。 K.﹕應該是那家吧。 問﹕那問﹕爲什麽﹖是問﹕她從來沒有考慮過要改嫁嗎﹖ K.﹕我想她是問﹕一年一萬塊錢﹐那是哪年的事情﹖一年一萬塊怎麽過啊﹖ K.﹕是九千﹗不是一萬。我們從來沒有賺過一萬。 問﹕甚至是2003年﹖ K.﹕他住在布魯克林。 問﹕他和我姥姥以前經常送我上學﹐也在周末的時候照顧我﹐我母親只在星期天陪一下我﹐有時候是晚上。 問﹕ 問﹕她是做什麽的﹖ K.﹕也是做裁縫。她不太喜歡上學。她那時有機會上學﹐但她不是太喜歡那裏的環境。我想是 K.﹕我就是說服不了她。 問﹕ 問﹕ K.﹕現在我是很高興﹐但以前卻不是﹐ 我現在的中文會非常好。我不至於浪費大學裏的學分﹐在年紀大了的時候選五個學分的課來學中文。 如果我自己有了孩子﹐我也會讓他們講中文﹐我會讓他們講雙語。讓他們知道我所經歷的事情﹐解釋給他們聽。我的意思是說﹐ K.﹕她這麽認爲。有些時候我也想到過這些。也許吧。我感激她爲我做的很多事情﹐我也不能責怪她做出的一些選擇。如果換了我﹐我可能會有不同的選擇﹐以至於我的孩子以後不會太辛苦。但她的確有太多的考慮﹐所以我也不能怪她這些。我不能怪她一直沒有離開唐人街﹐她只有這個經濟條件。 我希望現狀會有所不同﹐但我不能怪她的選擇。 問﹕聽起來﹐ 並不是說我想完全忘記這個地方﹐把它從我的記憶中抹去﹐我要離開這裏只不過是想換個居住條件更好的地方。但唐人街沒有這種條件﹐沒有比如說三個臥室的房間﹐或是很大的房間或房子。這裏全部是分租的房間﹐或是小型公寓房間﹐這些不是我想象中的未來居住環境。 問﹕那 K.﹕有。在9/11之後﹐她的衣問﹕在她沒有工作的那段時間﹐那些救濟金問﹕除了沒有上班以外﹐ 她就把我解雇了﹐我想是他們把每天的課時都增問﹕ 如果他們沒有打算說服這些衣問﹕她有沒有抱怨過她的工作環境呢﹖ K.﹕我想輪不到她抱怨﹐她也從來沒有抱怨過。她抱怨過那裏夏天比較熱﹐但如果她做清潔工或看孩子什麽的﹐那仍然是些藍 K.﹕是的。我在倫敦上了一個學期的課﹐但那不算是真正的體驗﹐ 但他們不知道如果我母親沒有爲我做這麽多的犧牲﹐我今天也不會是這個樣子。就是這麽簡單。 當然﹐我也並不是說我不想照顧她。我的確想和她住在一起﹐我想照顧她。我想問﹕ 但是看到別的中國人做這些事情的時候﹐我也不自覺地瞧不起他們。我們不是有這麽一首詩嗎﹖實際上﹐這是我在小的時候寫的。這首詩是講要忍﹐忍一時風平浪靜。[用中文背誦詩] 有一次真是太過份了。我姥姥去學 K.﹕是的。還有Lower East Side﹐不光是唐人街。 問﹕ 其他中國人也是這樣想的。他們沒有考慮過要參與社區活動好獲得一些回我們的力量不強大﹐我們會員的數量沒有達到成立機構的要求。如果這些中國學生不想爲自己爭取一席之地或組建協會﹐當然學大多是從中國大陸﹑香港﹑臺灣來的﹐或是其他亞洲國家的學生﹐還有一些國際學生是來藝術學 K.﹕在9/11發生的時候我很愛國﹐但我必只要我做的很多選擇都是 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource K. 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Meiling Tse Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Val Wang Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-01-30 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation high school teacher Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: A little bit about where you were born and the story that your dad told you. Tse: Right, well, I grew up – [Interruption] Q: I’m Val Wang. Tse: You need to put your face in the camera. Q: And I guess if you could introduce yourself a little bit, your name and where you were born and your age. Your age? And say where we are right now. Tse: I don’t have to say my age, do I? Okay, I’ll say it, it doesn’t matter. Just don’t show my students. They think I’m 25. Okay, should we start? Or should we just answer? Q: Yeah, just name, age, where we are. Tse: Well, my name is MeiLing Tse, it’s my last name. I was born in Hong Kong and I immigrated to the United States with my entire family when I was 4 years old. I have two older sisters and a younger brother. When he came, he was one years old and I’m 35 years old now and I’m teaching at Lower East Side Preparatory High School and I was born in Hong Kong, like I said, and the way that my family immigrated to the United States was through my father’s – some connection between my father and his job. And so I tell my students this really interesting and fabulous story of this generous guy who was my father’s boss who just kind of sponsored my entire family to come to the United States so that my father could work for him in the restaurant, so the boss, the guy opened the restaurant in Brooklyn and my father started to work for him. He was a loyal worker for many years until he retired and my family grew up in Brooklyn near my boss in the Sheepshead Bay area of Brooklyn. And went to high school – to elementary school, started kindergarten, actually, in the United States without knowing a single word of English because when I immigrated here, I didn’t know a word of English. My parents didn’t speak English, didn’t have any friends who spoke English. So, even though when you’re playing with your friends, you learn English, but because I didn’t have any friends who spoke English, I went to school without any English language skills. The school I went to, I remember, didn’t have any bilingual – no Chinese in the school, no bilingual classes as we have today and I remember the first day of school I was so scared because I didn’t understand what anyone was saying and I remember the end of the day I was hiding in the closet and the teacher had to fget me out to go home. And so those were my earliest memories and I tell my students the story just to put them at ease that every person that comes here really has a very difficult beginning. It’s not easy to assimilate and even for me, at age five, four or five years old, it was so hard and, so jumping forward, I learned English, went to high school and college --- Q: How long did it take you to learn English? Or, how long was it until you felt comfortable here? Tse: I remember reading, well the early years after that first memory was kind of blurred, but I remember reading books on my own in third grade, in third grade, just going to the library and taking out tons of books to read in the summer. And so I would say that I could probably read at a third grade level by the time I was eight years old, so I would say that between those first three years, it was very critical. I did learn somehow. How I learned, I don’t remember. Q: At home, what were you speaking at home? Tse: At home, my parents spoke Cantonese and that was the only language we used. Q: How was their English progressing during that time? Tse: Well, my parents were blue-collar workers. My father worked in a restaurant. He was a waiter and my mother was a seamstress, so they really had no use for English, so basically, they took classes and they tried to learn, but even up to today, they really have no use. They’re in their own community, there’s no really reason for them to use English, so they haven’t --- I don’t think they can really converse in a conversation with an American. So we’ve basically kept – they’ve been kind of shelled in their own little world all these years, actually. Q: You mentioned that the area you grew up in didn’t have many other Chinese kids. So what was that experience like growing up, surrounded by people who weren’t Chinese? Tse: Like I said, I have two older sisters and a younger brother, so basically, my family, we basically kept to ourselves and played with each other. We had friends, but basically, they were like school friends, like after school, we really didn’t hang out with them. We came home like obedient kids. We were latchkey kids, so we let ourselves in the house. We played in the house, went to the library. My sisters were my friends, so we played together, basically. Q: Did you have any contact with the Chinese community in Chinatown, in Brooklyn, or in Queens? When did you ever come in contact with them? Tse: Well, there was a big contact because my parents, my mother especially, worked in Chinatown and as we got older, my older sister actually went to Chinese school on Mott Street, CCBA [The Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association] and my second sister did and my younger brother. I was the only one who didn’t go to Chinese school and my mother’s side of the story is that I refused to go so she let me go, according to the story, so I never learned Chinese that way, to write and read. But getting back to your question, we would go out every Sunday because that was family day and that was the place where my parents were very comfortable and we would go out to eat for dim sum, hang out with his family friends in the neighborhood, and basically, yeah, that was our contact, coming out every Sunday, just to eat, go shopping, hang out with my mother’s friends and my father’s friends. Q: So you mentioned you didn’t have family here. How did they meet people? How did your parents meet people? Tse: Basically from their, well, it’s not a hundred percent true that they didn’t have any blood relatives, but like family friends, like my mother’s workers became very good friends. We had some distant cousins here and basically, there was an association that my father was affiliated with, people who came from the same area in China got together, and so there was this organization called the “Tees” group, the T-S-A group, you’ve probably seen it in Chinatown, on Division Street and my father would go up there and they would gamble and men would get together and just talk and just hang out, so there was an association there and he would bring the family around, the kids, just to meet his friends, so they could see, Oh, these are your daughters, these are your lovely daughters and your good son, kind of show the family off, so, that was important for us to, to realize that there were other people who were concerned about us. Q: So what part of China was that, were those, was that group of people from? Tse: Mostly from Canton, Guangdong, in China. Q: I guess if you could talk more about growing up and high school and then going to college and that whole process of where you went to college and how you made those decisions. Tse: I went to a local school, after elementary school, I went to the local high school, which was Midwood High School at Brooklyn College and there were more Asians there, but I wouldn’t say that there were new, first-generation Chinese. I mean, there were definitely Chinese there whose families were wealthier, I remember, kids whose families were in the medical profession, people who were pretty well-off, probably second or third generation in America and I just remember they were still no ESL [English as Second Language] classes, but I remember in my sister’s grade there was a new immigrant, she was Vietnamese and my sister became sort of like the surrogate parent for that young girl because we understood what it meant to be an immigrant and I remember my sister would bring her friend home to kind of do homework together and kind of be together and so I remember my sister kind of taking on the role, kind of like teacher-slash-friend for this newcomer. For the most part, most of the Asians in the school were pretty much like second or third generation, I would say. And then later on I decided to go to New York University and followed my sister’s footsteps, because my sister went there first, I have to say. And then, at NYU of course, there were people from all over the world and that’s one of the things that attracted me. I wanted to find a school where people have similar experiences, but also people with wide experiences and wanted to get to know more, different people. So, of course everyone knows New York University has students from all over the world, from many various different backgrounds. And I had a really great experience there. Q: So, say, like, your friends in high school versus your friends in college. How were they different? Tse: Actually, it’s kind of funny. In college, I would say was the first time I met friends who spoke Chinese, who were new immigrants and who were probably first generation Chinese-Americans and I spoke Chinese in school. It was the first time, really that I made friends there who were Chinese, who spoke Chinese. Q: And how did you decide to become a teacher? Can you talk about that whole process? Tse: Well, actually, going back to high school, during the summers there was a program called SYEP [Summer Youth Employment Program], which the government funded to have students work in different areas in the city, so somehow I, the company or I guess the organization which sponsored the program, was in Chinatown, so I ended up working in Chinatown when I was 14 years old when I got those papers, my working papers and all my summer jobs from the age of 14 to 18, during my high school years, were in Chinatown. So I worked at the Chinese-American Planning Council, every summer, working at their summer youth program. I was either a - what was I – a counselor. There are really big titles, but to a 14-year old, we were really assistant counselors. There was somebody in charge of us. We didn’t have that many responsibilities, but we, you just kind of work with, pretty much like babysitting, watching the kids who were younger than we were. So most of my jobs have been working in the Chinese community since I was 14. And the last year in high school, I remember, I was placed in a program where were worked with kids who were slightly older, they were high school kids, so they were almost the same as I was. And most of those kids were in school in Chinatown and they didn’t speak English. So then I started really tutoring, working with the students in another level and from there I got interested to, in education and thought in college that this was something I would study, so when I got to NYU, I continued, actually, to work at the Chinese-American Planning Council, getting other kinds of jobs in different areas and kind of stuck with that company for a while. Q: And then you said after you graduated college, you started teaching? Is that -- Tse: Yeah, well, actually, after college I got a degree in elementary ed and I taught sixth months in kindergarten, in Brooklyn, didn’t enjoy it. The kids were very tiresome and somehow I found myself taking time off and I came back to work at CPC as a full-time, for a year. Then in that time period I decided to go back to get my Master’s degree in teaching English as a second language. And so then I applied to get a job at NYU, so I worked at NYU full-time and taught a writing workshop to students and then I started to pursue my Master’s and one year later, I interviewed at this school and got a job here and here I am about ten years later and still here, still enjoying it. The students are, as I put it before, they are about, the school is about 70 percent immigrant students and of those 70 percent, I would say 60 percent, 60 65 percent Asian immigrants. Asian, Chinese immigrants. So, it’s kind of like going back full circle to my background. Q: Can you tell a little bit about the class that you teach and about the problems that the kids have and how you work through a lot of their issues? Tse: In this school, we have a really good ESL program. We have all levels of ESL, starting with beginner and it used to be that 10 years ago we used to accept students who were at the really basic literacy level learning English, so I remember doing very basic, just going over the alphabet, A B C. Of course now, with the English Regents, we don’t accept those kinds of students anymore. We still have beginning level learning students, so that’s ESL 1, 2. We also have Intermediate 3 and 4. Five and 6, 7 is a transitional English class, English as a Second Language into a mainstream English class. And so I’ve taught every level of ESL, from beginning to intermediate and advanced and it’s really amazing to see in a really short amount of time, from students can be here from three months in this country, from three months to two years and they have to learn a lot. A lot of skills, a lot of language skills. And the ultimate goal is, for them, is to learn enough English to pass the English Regents, which is mandated of every student in New York City in order to receive the high school diploma. So that’s a big challenge, a really big challenge and they rise to the occasion. I mean, that’s what’s amazing that in two years, that they can learn such an incredible amount. I mean, if you think about it, if you were to, if we were to go to another country and could we master a language in two years? That’s mind-boggling, yeah. Q: And so can you say, in the ten years that you’ve been here, what you’ve seen in the changes in the students, where people are coming from and what kind of English they come with or what kinds of problems you’ve seen that have changed in the last ten years. Tse: As I said before, ten years ago we actually accepted students who were at the literacy level where we started with the alphabet and at the same time, we also had students who have incredible amounts of grammar and English levels, and most of the students came from Hong Kong ten years ago. If you look at today’s student population, most of our students come from more rural or small town farm areas in China, Fukian, especially. I would say 80% of our students are from Fukian today, yeah. And I would say of those students, about half of them don’t have more than a sixth grade education, so that’s another challenge that’s come up that they don’t have the literacy skill in their own language so it’s hard for them to actually transfer their knowledge of language into their second language or their third language. Q: What do their parents usually do, here? Tse: I would say probably 99 percent of their parents are blue-collar workers, work in factories, restaurants. There are a minority number of students whose parents were at the technical level, doctors, perhaps, nurses in China, but of course after coming here, they have to get jobs to support themselves, so again, they are kind of working blue-collar jobs. Q: And so what kinds of difficulties do you see them having here and how do they kind of compare to the difficulties that you had when you came? Tse: Their difficulties? Q: Yeah. Tse: Well, it’s interesting, because thinking back now a lot into the things that we were missing as a child, we didn’t have dolls, we didn’t have money to buy certain things. My clothes were all secondhand because I had two older sisters, so when I tell my students this, they’re like, What? How could you like, didn’t you want more? Didn’t you have your parents like give you stuff? So when I see a lot of students these days, actually I would say are better off or at the same level that my parents were at. I think you have to look at it in perspective, when you live in a certain time period, you don’t think of the things you don’t have because you don’t have them, but if you’ve had them before and then all of a sudden you don’t have it, then you compare and say, Oh my god, what happened? You know, why is our life worse? Or, you know, what has changed for us? So I think that for most students, because they didn’t have much before, and I would say I would know at least a couple families who told me that, you know, when they were in China, they really, they didn’t, their parents didn’t work, you know, they really just stayed at home, and every day was just passing by. They are so extremely grateful to be here that they really, they really don’t care about the clothes that they are wearing. The education is really the most important thing to them. Q: Interesting. I guess we can talk a little bit about, should start talking a little bit about 9/11 and you were pretty close to that area. I guess first a little bit about that day and where people were, if people were here and then more about what happened afterwards and how the school dealt with it and the kids and if there were any changes that happened because of it, at the school and any counseling that the kids went through, or the teachers. So I guess a little bit about what happened that day, or where you were or where the kids were. Tse: Two years, last year, we did a little write-up, kind of like memorial of the day and one of my students handed in this essay on that day, he was on his way from China to come to the United States and the plane was stopped and they had to re-route and stop in California because of what happened here and he remembered that it was, not so much scary, but a sense of not knowing what is going to happen to you, so in his essay he writes they were just stranded in this one place and nobody knew what was going to happen and now all the dreams and excitement of coming here, you know, kind of like fell backwards, you know, are we going to have to go back to China or are we going to move forward? So it’s kind of interesting in retrospect those students who came here during that year probably had a really amazing memory of probably what happened. For us, that day, it was in the morning, and it was, from one of the classrooms, you could see the smoke and you could see one of the towers missing, and we remember, the entire school would try to like move the entire student body into the auditorium so that people would not go crazy or panic. We were just waiting word to see what happens, you know, was it just a plane or was it something else. And of course when we found out, you know, we couldn’t leave school, there were no train available, so we thought we were going to camp out in school that night. You know, the students were kind of, we were all shocked, but we didn’t, most of the people here in our school didn’t know anyone personally who was in the buildings. So I guess it was, the shock was so great that we didn’t really think about the reality of what was happening. We were just stunned, you know, classes didn’t go on. We just basically sat around and waited. The students, no one talk about it. They try to, try to continue the day but not really knowing what to say. So it was a really hard day, so – Q: Most of the kids weren’t from around here, you said? They couldn’t just walk home, or – Tse: Some of the students were able to go home, you know, within walking distance, but the rest of the students kind of waited. We had all of the TVs on, just kind of waiting word to see if the trains would go on, whether we should let the students go at 3 o’clock or not, yeah. Q: And the rest of the week, did there, were there classes? Or what happened, sort of just with the class, with the school? Tse: Well, we were told to try to continue things, as much as possible, but of course when you go home and you realize what happened, you know, and a few days, as time passed, two days or three days later, when it really sets in about the reality of what happened, it’s really hard to just continue. And I would say, we had a social worker at the time and she did go around to talk to the students in each classes and really appreciate that she brought up certain things that the teachers, you know, did not feel comfortable talking about or did not know how to approach it. And it’s really hard because you put your own personal opinion about what happens and we had some Muslim students in the school as well. Q: How did they experience 9/11 or what was their experience after 9/11? Tse: They were quiet about it, actually. I mean, later on, the following years, a year later, because we heard about the hatred and what was happening in their neighborhoods, but at that time, it was just, I think we were all just stunned. There was no blame, there was no animosity towards them, but we try to keep things in the low-key, just try to move on. Q: Did they talk about what had happened in their neighborhood? What were they saying about their experiences? Tse: They just, well, from what we heard in newspaper, you know, that they were being shunned or, it wasn’t so much that they, since I guess they, this school’s a pretty safe environment, so we really tried, I mean most of the students know each other. It wasn’t so much that our students were picking on the other students, but when they went home to their own worlds, I guess they had a different experience and it wasn’t so much shared in the school. Little bits and pieces came out afterwards. You know, like especially a year later, little things came out. They didn’t talk much the first year, about their personal feelings or like what happened to them afterwards. Q: So, after a year, how did it come out? Was it in counseling steadily for a year or how did that work? Tse: There were a few students who actually met with social workers on a one-to-one basis, who got counseling, but some of the teachers addressed it to the entire class. We spoke, we sat in a circle the second or third day and we talked about what happened. It’s just still, like, for the students, I don’t think they really want to talk about it. I don’t know whether it’s the age or whether they don’t think it really affected them, but they just didn’t want to talk about it, just wanted to move on, it’s like, Miss Meiling, can we just get back to what we were doing before? Just really just kind of want to forget about it, just kind of move on. Q: Have they been like that the whole time? They’ve never wanted to talk about it, or -- Tse: The second year we had a memorial. Like each 9/11, the school, we put a memorial. We have students come up to a wall and write things, write their memoirs, write what they felt, what happened that day. And for that one day, I would say, it’s still so much like, it’s a one-day deal and after that, they don’t really want to talk about it. Q: What about you, your experiences that day? How were you feeling or how did you react or – Tse: Well, my sister actually worked in that building and her company actually moved out of that building a few months ago, so like I, I didn’t personally know anyone who worked there, except my sister who had moved out, so I was very relived, but I remember just like a blackout, you call everyone you know and want to find out if they’re okay, but itwas, it’s still hard, like for everyone else and you stay glued to the TV to hear the news. Q: Was, were any of your students affected in terms of their parents losing jobs or any of those kinds of effects? Tse: Well, I know, like, there was a big drive to really help the students fill the forms so they could get from FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency], the aid they needed. A lot of students who were concerned about their parents were lost jobs in this area. Even the students who didn’t live in this area, in the Chinatown area, their parents worked down here, so parents who lost their jobs, the social workers would try to help them to apply for aid, to help them get financial assistance. Q: So what kinds of aid programs were there? Because I’m not too clear about what kinds of aid programs there were. Tse: There’s the FEMA program. So, I mean, we all knew it personally, so we tried to send the students down there to get the forms and they would come back here and ask us to help them fill it out. I had a friend whose son actually worked in the office, so I had some connections there and I got some forms for them. I had a, they actually had, they were, I mean it was translated in Chinese, so it was, there wasn’t so much problems in filling out the forms, but actually getting people there to stand in lines, reassuring that it was okay to go there and get help from other people. Q: Was there a lot of reluctance to do that? To get help, to go seek help? Tse: I think they were appreciated at the end, appreciative, the students. In the beginning, it was, like, they weren’t, they couldn’t believe it, I would say, there was such a thing existed in the United States, where they can get all this help. But they did bring the information back to the parents and you know, back and forth, the information got to the parents and somehow, they got the assistance, some of the students got the assistance they needed. Q: And who was eligible for it and how – Tse: In our school, we have a free lunch period for a hundred percent of the students, so I would say 99.9 percent of the students probably qualified. Q: To get the free lunch? Tse: Right. And probably for other assistance programs. Q: So after 9/11, were there other assistance programs? Did the school apply for any money or were there other extra programs here? Tse: Our school wasn’t directly affected by what happened, but I know that there were other funds. We did get, I mean this was, I guess, you know I think about a year later or within that year, we had, you know, different organizations approach us, with different things. We brought a hundred kids to see Beauty and the Beast on Broadway. Yeah, yeah, that was from one of the organizations which, you know, really felt for our school because we were so close to what happened. And there were a couple things that, you know, that we were able to achieve. I mean, , some of the, you know, benefits, I guess you can say, unfortunately, through what happened. Q: So what organization did that, the Beauty and the Beast? Tse: I think it was the Broadway, I don’t know the organization, the artists on Broadway, something like that. Q: They just gave you guys a hundred tickets? Tse: Yeah, to bring the kids to see the show. Q: How was that experience? Tse: The show, I mean, that’s great, I mean, anytime you get to take a bunch of kids on Broadway and just the show itself is very entertaining. And we told them, it’s because of this reason and they were very appreciative, that people were thinking of them. I mean, I was very appreciative that, you know, that we were able to take a hundred kids on Broadway for free. That’s not easy to come by. Q: Yeah, that’s, that’s good. So, were there any other also effects in terms of health after 9/11? From the, were there more cases of asthma from the fallout from the World Trade Center or also from pollution in the, in this area? Tse: Well, we noticed that the air [unintelligible] quality was not as a good. You know, on some days, especially in the first few weeks, it’s like evidently there was something in the air and we were asked not to open the A/C because the filter was probably contaminated. I tried not to open my windows at all just because, like, you never know, like if you hear about it and you feel afraid, you’re not sure what’s going to happen. I don’t think the kids really, like, you know, other people, especially the students, were that concerned about. They didn’t think about, you know, probably long-term effects. And they didn’t really feel that there was any danger you know in the air. I know there was a big push to get air filters and different things in the school at that time, but due to our lack of funds, we didn’t go that far. I think they only clean out the air-conditioner filters and that was it. Q: So does the school have a lot of funds, you said there was funding problems. Are there, can you talk a little more about that? Tse: The funding problems in our school? Q: Yes. Tse: Well, I think it is just the way the, comes from the top. It depends how they decide to, where they decide to spend their money. I mean, teachers don’t, we really don’t get a say in how the money is spent in school, whether we should have, hire more teachers or other support staff. We don’t really have a role in that. If we did, probably things would be run a little bit differently. But you were saying, do we have more support? Well, I can say that our school is probably much better off, I mean we have no problems in terms of chalk, missing chalk. There is always lack of books, you know, if we want to get a few more copies of a certain book or we want to try to use a new book, we would have to wait and wait and then wait until there are funds for it. So definitely textbook money is hard to come by, [unintelligible] Q: So, actually, I don’t know if we’ve talked about this being – [Lan asking to stop the tape to adjust the lighting after a light blew out.] Tse: It’s not going to go on, though because it probably blew out. [Consultations] Tse: That’s not the first time it happened. It just goes out and either it comes back on or we have to call the custodian. They’re not going to come today. Q: As long as it’s not flickering, I guess. [Break in tape] Q: Okay, I guess we were kind of at a stopping point, so if we want to go back now and talk more about your childhood and what you remember about coming to the States and why your parents came and why they chose New York. And a little bit about what you remember about being really young in Hong Kong. Tse: Well, when my students ask when I immigrated here, 1972 was the year and we do a little research into history and that was the time when Nixon was president and welcome arms. They wanted immigrants. The immigration door was wide open and it was relatively easy for us to come here. My family was sponsored by my father’s boss who had a business connection with my father. It was under his kind graces that he sponsored us and actually probably paid for our entire passage to America. My family consists of my mother, my father, my two older sisters and a younger brother and myself, that’s six of us, couldn’t have been that cheap and my father worked for this person for the last, I guess, 25 years until he retired and until the guy passed away. Getting back to your question of why did my parents come here, my parents were born in Toisan (??) which is Toisan, you know, Toishan is the way you say it in America and they immigrated to Hong Kong during the wartime and my parents met in Hong Kong and had all four of us there before the opportunity came up for them to immigrate to America. We were the first part of our family to come here, my mother’s sister’s family is still there in Hong Kong. On my father’s side of the family, they went to different places. They went to Holland. We have two of my brothers live in Holland. We also have some half-brothers who are in the United States, but pretty distant relatives and we don’t really get together. But my parents immigrated here for, of course, a better opportunities. They understood that if we stayed in Hong Kong probably that was not the way that my parents wanted to raise us. They wanted to give us more opportunities to, in this new land. And probably all the stories about America, you know, the golden gates, the gold on the floor, the clichés about America, you know, that was true for my parents. They believed in it, they believed in the American dream. And even though my father would have to take a low-paying job when he came here and my mother didn’t know what she would do when she came here, they decided take the risk and all of us came over here at the same time. We were probably lucky that we all came here together because some of my students today, some of my students are here by themselves or some of the students, their parents have come earlier than them because they haven’t, due to paperwork of some sorts, they weren’t able to come together as a whole family and so that kind of disbalances the family unit and I think we were lucky that my entire family were able to come at one time and of course at that time there were probably programs for people who came in, to help us out. I don’t remember any specifics, I just remember there were a lot of people who did help us out. My father’s business, his boss and friends which they made later in the neighborhood, the Chinese families, were probably the main people who helped us get grounded in our new life here and -- Q: What did your dad do when he was in Hong Kong? Tse: He was a sailor and when he came here, because of some connections he made with a person he knew there, the person trusted him and trusted him, I guess, a lot and when he came here, he worked for him. Q: So he was a sailor and he would leave Hong Kong a lot to go on trips? Tse: Right, right. Q: And do you remember being in Hong Kong? Tse: My parents had a small soda shop there, so we have a few pictures from Hong Kong where my two sisters and I are sitting at the front doorstep of this candy shop and black-and-white pictures and at the garden, and different places. My sister remembers more because she was actually seven when she came. I was four when I left so I don’t have many memories. There are a couple, few memories, places, because I did go back to Hong Kong twice, as an adult and don’t remember the places. It’s very a big city, it’s similar to New York City, 42nd Street, so it’s not that big of a change. Q: So can you talk about going back actually, your experience? What was it like going back? Tse: Well, my mother’s sister still lives there with her family so when I went back, I contact them and they brought me to some places I didn’t remember. I mean, the places were very different. My mother has actually gone back to Hong Kong before I went back and basically things in her hometown haven’t changed much. In the way you had to walk to get to certain place. Still very poor living conditions, but in the city, if you were to stay in the city, in a hotel, I mean it’s no different from New York City. Yeah. Q: So did you go back to her hometown as well? Tse: I didn’t know anyone there, so when I went back to Hong Kong, it was with friends and it wasn’t a visit with my mom. So if I were to go again, a trip with my mom would probably be more meaningful it terms of searching my family’s roots. But my mother’s sister was there and her daughter was about the same age as me, took me around, she took me around. Her mother’s not well, so she couldn’t tell me much about her, their life there. But Hong Kong is a very hip city. It’s like New York City. She grew up in the city. They really have no desire to immigrate to United States. I asked her once, before ’97, I went back and they’re pretty happy there. They have a whole life there. There’s no reason to leave. They’re professional people there, so I mean if they were to come here, it would be just to visit. Q: Did you feel a connection to her or, because you’d never met her, right? Tse: Only through pictures. Q: So what was that like? Tse: It was amazing. We connected. Even though we’re family, we haven’t really seen or spoken, just through parents’ letters, we kind of knew of each other and what we studied and what we were good in and what our parents thought of us and so we met. It was more of, because we were blood that really we connected and kept in touch. Q: Was she the same age? What did she do there? Tse: She was a graphic designer and her older sister worked with her husband in their own business and her other sister was an aspiring dancer at that time. [Laughs.] I think she’s a housewife now, but they all were, they had big dreams, you know, but to pursue them in Hong Kong, not with any intention of leaving that place. Q: So what surprised you most about going there? Tse: That there wasn’t much of a difference compared to New York City. Of course there was the language, people spoke Cantonese more and really appreciated that we spoke Cantonese with them. We spoke English with them in some places, which was fine because they spoke English. Q: What surprised you most about going back? Tse: What surprised me most was that Hong Kong wasn’t that big of a surprise in terms of, if you were to travel to another country, you would think that things were really different and there wasn’t really. It was a big city. I stayed in the main part of the city, in a hotel. If you traveled to some of the poorer places, of course life is very different. Wild dogs there and the place you go, the cemeteries, the old style cemeteries are probably places you want to visit just to see, you know, there’s a hint of the old lifestyle there, but in the city, there’s not much different from New York City. Q: Did you, I was going to ask, did you feel like it was going home? Or where do you feel like your home is? Did you feel at home there? Tse: I was a tourist. I was a visitor. I mean, I don’t have any, I haven’t been there for the past, since I came here, with my mother’s sister’s family, my aunt’s family who were there, I wouldn’t have anyone to visit there. I would say because I’ve been in America for such a long time, you know, actually went through the whole citizenship process when I was 18 years old and was sworn in in a courtroom and everything. I would say that I consider myself a Chinese-American. Q: And what about your parents? What do they feel about what they are? Tse: I think as most families, if you live in a place long enough, even if you don’t consider it your home, you know, if you’ve been in a place long enough, it’s hard for them to consider any other place to live. I remember when we were younger, they would say, Oh, when we retire, we’re just going to go back to Hong Kong and live there and leave you guys here, you know. But I don’t hear them say that anymore and I think it’s because they’re so used, and they like living here. They have their family, they have their life here. If they were to move back to another country, back to Hong Kong, or China, they would have to start over again with their friends and settling down. Everything is just so convenient here. My parents are pretty traditional people. I mean, they don’t have any American friends, basically, and they live really in their own world, very sheltered world. But I would say that they’re very comfortable. They know how to get on the subway and go to places where they like to go, go to the park, Central Park or go to Brooklyn Botanical Gardens, so there are certain places that they know how to get there, and, you know, Chinatown is always there and they’re just very comfortable where they are. They consider, I think they consider America to be their home. Q: And, I guess if you also talk a little bit about sort of your process of what Lan was saying about becoming American, sort of the difficulties in that and what point you felt like, or if you can remember any specific incidents where you felt, like, okay, actually, I belong here now or I feel American now? Or not? Tse: Well, the term “what is an American?” is very philosophical and there are many ways to answer it. I think my best answer is, came about when my students asked me, so what, of course with the intention of thinking, what should we consider ourselves? and so if you had to answer that question, you had to be very careful with what you say because you’re influencing someone else and that’s scary, right? But I would say I’ve always considered myself a Chinese-American. Chinese because of my cultural background, you know, the way I look, the way I was brought up, the values my parents instilled in me, and I would also say I would attach the American too because this is the country that you live in and there are other values, other behaviors, other cultures that you added onto yourself to make you the person you are today. So I wouldn’t say, completely say that I’m just Chinese because you know if you live in China, you might say that you’re just Chinese, right? Just because you live in America doesn’t mean that you’re just an American because you have other historical links to yourself. So we say America is a melting pot. America is not just one kind of person or, you know, you’re not just one kind of person, you’re always linked to another country or another cultural background, so even if I think two or three generations down, you know, like my children’s children’s children, I would teach them to be Chinese-American. I would like them to consider themselves Chinese-American. Q: What do your students, what is your students’ take on that? Are they eager to be American? Tse: They think I’m, they view, in the beginning, yeah. They were surprised I speak Chinese. Even though I look Chinese, in the class progressed, they think I’m totally American. So they would consider me as an American. It’s only after my speech or after getting to know me, probably two or three months later, that I’m very Chinese in certain ways and have similar values or understand where they’re coming from, that they begin to realize that, oh, you’re Chinese too. So probably Chinese-American. Q: So when you say you feel very Chinese, what is, how does that, how do you experience that or how do you feel like you know that? Tse: Well, I don’t want to go into any stereotypes of what it means to be an American, but you can look at certain behaviors of the Chinese-American who grew up here, the teenagers who grew up in New York City are much more verbal, not to say I’m not, but just that they’re behavior, who they hang around with, their living conditions, their environment, influence them to be who they are, the TV they watch, the friends they hang around with, the books they read, if they read at all. I think that those external factors influence them more than the internal factors and the fact that probably their parents are more, you know, assimilated in society that they’re more external, they’ve accepted the external parts more, too. So I think compared to my students, who only been in America two years, this is, all who they are has been from their upbringing and they’ve been brought up in China all these years, so they haven’t assimilated yet, even though their forced to do certain things, but they haven’t totally accepted it or you don’t have to like it, but maybe not even understanding it could be problem for them too, to consider themselves an American yet. Q: So growing up, what I guess, if we could go over what, growing up, in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s, was different from kids who immigrate here when they’re five and grow up here now? Just how it was different culturally or socially? Tse: I would say, I want to talk about the similarities first because as I said before, I tell my students I remember going to school and not understanding the teacher. I remember learning A B C from the beginning. I even though the age, there’s an age difference, I was four and they’re sixteen, seventeen, there are similarities. The struggle of first having to speak English, not understanding other people, not understanding the context of culture or [unintelligible] whatever, the difference is that I was younger and probably was able to play without using language, probably able to blend in, things weren’t that academic at that point, when you’re four years old, five years old and things are different for students now. Students who are 13, 14, coming to America, are probably at a crossroads in their lives because they’re coming of age, they may, depending on their level of English skills, I would say most of our students have some kind of background in English. They’ve studied English as a foreign language in their country, so, they’ve learned some grammar rules and depending on how much they’ve learned, sometimes does influence how successful they’re going to be here. Because of the age and pressures of finishing high school, how much, how many friends you make here, American friends you make here will also influence how much you push yourself into the American culture, I think. So, the differences are, in terms of the age, I would say, the environment is very different. I remember, we were able to play out in the streets until I don’t know what time and that, of course, understanding, I grew up in, not a great neighborhood, but a pretty decent neighborhood. I remember a time coming home I had to be chaperoned because the people were hanging out on the stoop and of course if you go to New York City that’s not a big deal because lots of people hang out on the stoop, but for my parents, they were like, bad people hang out on the stoop after 9 o’clock, so we were never allowed to go out certain times. But again that’s in my parents days, they were very traditional and they were very, since they didn’t know anyone in this country, they were very protective and their rules were very strict for us. I think our students today, the rules are a little looser. Pretty much they’re on their own. They learn to be independent, they are independent. Probably in China before they came they were independent. A lot of our students went off to school, didn’t live at home and they had to learn to cook and clean for themselves, so it’s almost, it’s almost a blessing for them coming here with those skills because now they have to learn to be independent and to take on a lot of responsibilities and practically become mature overnight. They have to learn to do all these things on their own without their parents’ help or advice. Q: Did you, so you said you were less independent, you said, growing up than a lot of these students? Tse: Yeah, totally. Q: Did you ever go through a period of rebellion where you, you know, had friends who were more, you know, had looser parents and you wanted to be more like that? Tse: I would say I didn’t really connect with that many friends who were outgoing in school but I can tell you about my sister who was very rebellious and I remember she ran away from home twice and we found her at an American boy’s home and they were just friends and we knew the guy later on, a few years later, and they were just friends. That was junior high school. She was probably 12 or 13 years old and there were certain things that my parents didn’t allow her to do, probably stay out later than she wanted, you know, come home earlier than she wanted to come home or do certain things like go to parties or do certain things that she wanted to do. So she was the rebellious one. She would run away or stay out late, intentionally not come home with me, you know, those kinds things, just to tell my parents, hey, I don’t want to follow your rules. I was a good one. I basically listened to my parents. I did well in school, I studied hard. I read books. Books were really my friends. I did a lot of reading. I listened to my parents. Q: And you had a brother also. Tse: I had a younger brother. Q: Was he rebellious? Tse: Not really. I would say, we were, I wouldn’t say sheltered, we were kind of sheltered. You know, our family did things together, like on Saturdays we would play ball together. We would go out as a family and kind of stay together, because my parents didn’t have many friends then either, so we hung out together. My parents tried to find things for us to do together and we became, we became friends, each other’s company. Q: So where is your younger sister now? Tse: My brother? Q: The rebellious sister. Tse: Oh, she’s married. She lives in Queens and she works in a law firm. My older sister is also a teacher. She teaches in Harlem. She teaches elementary school. Q: And where’s your brother? Tse: My brother’s unemployed right now. He’s in the computer field, so they’re having a hard time looking for a good company who will support what he’s interested in doing. Q: I guess, can you, let’s see. I don’t know if you have anything else to say about the difficulties of just coming here and just from the time you came to high school, what sorts of difficulties you had in feeling assimilated or comfortable in the society? Tse: I would still say, like, growing up, as a first generation, as you know, with my parents still being a very strong influence on my life, that we didn’t, you know, the things that were important to American teenagers weren’t that important to us, going to the prom or – I went to graduation, but I didn’t go to prom. Those things weren’t that important to me and you know, just hanging out, having slumber parties, things that the typical, what you would say the typical American students are doing, just hanging out on weekends, were really not that important to me. And I think it was probably because of my parents’ upbringing, you know, my upbringing under of my parents’ eye and I think it was the time period was very different. Yeah, I don’t know what to say about that. Q: You think different than now? Tse: Yeah. Q: In what way? Tse: Well I think because the very strong and structured family, right, I grew up with. I think the students today, they, even though the family is still very important and a lot kids still have both parents at home, yet there are other kids who don’t or who have one parents and that definitely influence the way they think and the way they live their lives. Q: How would you say it influences them? Tse: Well, in terms of knowing who they are probably. The way – you can tell by the way they dress, if they go shopping at certain places. And they’ve only been here for six months, but they know where to buy clothes. Or they have a certain kind of clothing because they want to fit in and they never had this before and now they’re here alone or they have one parent and they need to – and they can probably persuade a parent to get something for them because there’s only one parent that they can probably get it. A lot of our students also work, too. They get part-time jobs, working in bakeries or as waiters, part-time and so they have a little bit of cash flow. The school is an alternative school, which means that we have older students. Some of our students graduated from high school, a small percent, like 2 percent, actually graduated from high school in China and are ready to go in college, but because they want to get their high school diploma here to, to also improve their English, they come to this school. So the goals are a little different. I would say that the students here are a little more mature than other students because of their age and a lot of them are here alone. They live here, they have to support themselves. They have different concerns and goals in life. Q: So how would you say their self-image differs from yours when you were their age because you said they have a lot of obsession with clothing or with fitting in. Tse: Not all, I would say some. There’s a group of students in this school from Hong Kong and they’re all very chic and you can just tell, when you walk in the hallways, if you didn’t know them, they were from Hong Kong, just by the way they’re dressed, the way their hair is styled or the way they talk. Of course, speaking Cantonese gives it away too. But just their personalities is a little different. They were their pants like down to their hips. They try to be very Americanized. There are certain t-shirts they wear, Stussy, this new brand that came out that’s very popular. They spend stuff on jewelry. They have earrings. They have necklaces. They’re a different breed than the students who came from China who probably – their parents grew up in more traditional, very small, maybe come from the farm, rural areas in China. Life is very different for them. Q: So how do these groups interact in school? Tse: Just like in high school, where I grew up, there are different groups of people, different cliques, different groups hang together and here, it’s no different. People hang, group together based on where they grew up. Either it’s language or sometimes, very rarely, personalities. You know, you have the Hong Kong group, the Cantonese group, the Fukienese group, you have the group who’s very smart and just loves to study, doesn’t matter where they’re from, they stick together, there’s a group who love to speak English and they find other friends who have similar interests. So it’s no different from high school, but, well, there’s no jocks. I don’t see any Chinese jocks here. So that’s, that group is missing. But very similar to any teenager growing up, they’re, you know – people find friends who have similar interests or background as them, so, that’s not very different. Q: And so when you were growing up, you said that – was it strange to be one of the only Chinese people in your high school? Tse: I didn’t say I was the only Chinese. I would say I was one of the – probably one or two immigrant Chinese families who went to school there. As far as the other Asians, I didn’t really consider them Chinese, more like Americans because they didn’t speak Chinese or if they spoke Chinese, they basically acted differently. All their friends were friends with other Americans, people who were very popular in school, that kind of teenaged life. They did things differently. They were in different clubs, different social groups. Q: So did you not – you didn’t have much relationship to the other – Tse: I did. With one girl I did, but it was more platonic relationships. Because we were in the same class you kind of shared similar – I didn’t want to say homework, share homework, but we shared some conversations about the class, but I wouldn’t say we, after class, we went to lunch together. Q: And what attitudes did your parents have towards dating or that kind of stuff? Tse: Yeah, well, their attitude was – we had to secretly date, secretly have crushes or secretly go out with our friends. Everything was secretive because our parents just never addressed the issue. You can marry after college or something like that and, in one way, they pretty much were liberal in letting us find out for ourselves. On the other hand, I would think they didn’t want us to find out, so that’s why they didn’t ever talk about it. And I think kids today are a little more sophisticated, because they started dating when they’re 16, 17 years old or even if they haven’t done it, they know about it. They’ve seen their friends who’ve gotten pregnant or gotten abortions or whatnot or even divorces. Different social problems have forced them to accept these ideas. They’re a little more sophisticated than I was. Q: So your parents never talked about it? Tse: They never talked about it. Well, even we tried to bring it up. My sister had a boyfriend when she was very young, I think the first year of high school and it wasn’t the house she ran away to, not the boy that she ran away with, but my parents would say, like, You can date anyone who’s not Chinese, you know, let alone marry. But like you know, you really shouldn’t date a person who’s not Chinese because you might – with the assumption that you might end up marrying him. So my sisters and I would secretly date. Q: Did you date people who were Chinese? Tse: In the beginning, yes, but later on, in college, we would date outside our race. I mean, our parents never knew. Yeah, it wouldn’t sit right with them. Q: So even now, how is their idea about that? Tse: Now, they are become more flexible. They just want – my sister did marry a Vietnamese-Chinese guy, so, you know, they’re very happy about that. But I think their views on marriage is – they would probably prefer – I’m still single, but if – they would probably prefer me to marry a Chinese-American person rather than anything else, but you know, they knew I was dating a Caucasian person. They didn’t say anything about it. They went, Mmm hmmm. They didn’t say much. They didn’t say, “Yeah, this is great!” but they didn’t say, “Oh, no, you shouldn’t do that.” They didn’t say that, they didn’t resist. I think it’s probably because they themselves have gotten used to maybe hearing different things or they’ve gotten more relaxed with their values about what should – you know, things aren’t so black and white anymore for them. I think they were very protective in the beginning because everything was very new to them. They were really just trying to protect us. They were trying to figure out things for themselves. [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO] Q: I guess more about dating. What about your other sisters or your brother – are they married? Tse: No, they’re still single, but basically, I haven’t seen them with anyone else other than Chinese, so I guess they’re pretty much dating Chinese people. Q: Do they feel more comfortable that way, or – Tse: I didn’t ask them about it. I – for myself, I think there’s – it just kind of depends who the person is and who you associate yourself with. So if most of their friends are Chinese, they probably – that’s their circle of friends. Q: And how about you? Do you feel more comfortable dating Chinese-Americans? Tse: It’s not a matter of comfortable. I think it’s more convenient, like if you’re going somewhere and you want to – because I speak Cantonese and some of the guys I’ve dated who are Chinese don’t speak the language very well and I always say something to make fun of them and, you know, it’s kind of fun to have some kind of commonality, even though they’re not fluent. You can say something. There’s a joke. You say something that you don’t want someone else to hear. It’s kind of nice. It’s kind of like a secret language or something you both have in common. It’s just kind of fun. Q: Do you feel like it’s easier to connect with people who speak Cantonese as well as English? Tse: Well, if their background, their growing up is similar, I think definitely there is connection there instantly, but not necessarily. There are other things that are important, your values and basic chemistry. Q: And so how connected do you feel to the Chinese community either here in Chinatown or where you live? Tse: Well, the area where I’m living right now is another growing Chinatown, so I kind of feel like I’m living in Chinatown because there are Chinese restaurants all around, Chinese Laundromats, Chinese supermarkets, Chinese groceries. There’s everything there and it’s actually in the last five years. I’ve lived there all my life, but that community is actually growing. There are more Chinese moving in so – they speak the same language I do. I’m kind of hesitant to say this, but I’ll say anyway. I kind of feel like I’m looking for another place to move where there’s not so many Chinese just because there’s just like I think I want a place quieter. Not that I want to move away from Chinese people, but I think one of the reasons I moved into this neighborhood was because it was nice and quiet. Sometimes when you want to – you know, after work or you just want to kind of move away from your job and I’ve worked in Chinatown, near this area, Lower East Side, my entire life and I went to school at NYU, very close to Chinatown and a lot of times a lot of my social activities have been in this area, so it’s very convenient, it’s very comfortable to be in this area. At the same time, as you grow older, you realize that there are other places to go visit, other people to meet, other challenges, other people you definitely want to meet, other things to do besides in your community, so while, yeah, I feel like I’m going to work in this community, I’m going to help this community grow, at the same time, part of the American Dream, part of the society is to really understand America is not just Chinatown, it’s not just this area. And you want – I want my students to understand that too, where they can always come back to. I always joke about it with my friends, like, we come to Chinatown to eat, to take advantage the cheap prices, the groceries, and then we go back to our homes. But it’s kind of true, in a way. We want to connect to our Chinese roots, but on another level, we want to be in mainstream American society where, you know, there are other things in life to be enjoyed and to be discovered, too. Q: How do you feel like you came to that kind of understanding? Tse: I guess probably through friends, if you go to certain restaurants, you venture our of your neighborhood to try something new. Like when the first time I went rock climbing and then you think, okay, what else am I going to do next? You kind of stretch. Once you stretch, you think of more things to do and you kind of step outside your circle, your box. And I think that’s very important, too. If you always stay inside your circle, you’re not going to grow and you have to compare. You have to look at your life in retrospect with everything else in your whole world. Q: So what was your neighborhood before it became more Chinese? Maybe like 5 or 10 years ago? Tse: There were some Chinese living there, but on my block there were two Chinese families. Mostly Jewish people, Russian people in the area, I would say. Some Italians. Q: So now is it people who are just coming to the States or is it people who’ve been here for a while? Tse: I think it’s a mix. There’s a mix of business people who are opening the restaurants and there are a mix of new immigrants. Some of my students live in my neighborhood, so I know that there are new immigrants too. So it’s mixed. And it’s kind of nice to see a different mix, instead of just one type of socio-economic group. Q: So how do you feel like your sort of generation who has been here longer interacts with the newer generation? Tse: I think we – I think for myself, I can’t speak for others, there’s still a very strong connection because I still speak the language. I understand what’s going on, that when you hear the problems or you hear the issues that they’re – or the challenges they’re going through, you know, you’re reminded of something very similar. So you’re not that far, you know, far off. But I think for most of us, as we grow older, like my sisters and I, we’re more compassionate towards new immigrants and, you know, even though we joke, okay we were in the same situation, we wore secondhand clothing or sometimes our parents didn’t have presents, like we didn’t have presents. We had to bring Christmas to our parents. Like, that kind of thing, [unintelligible] the students and newcomers today. But at the same time, because we’re at a different level, our lifestyle is different, we’ve, you know, we’re making money, we’ve quote-unquote arrived. You do feel a sense of compassion who are now just, just coming across these challenges. I mean I’m sure they have different challenges today, as growing up as teen. There are probably things they don’t talk about that’s on their minds, but there’s a lot of similarities. I don’t think there are that many differences. There are differences, certainly, but I think for any group coming from one place to another, there aren’t that many differences. Q: So you talked about not having new clothes and not having Christmas. Are there other things you really remember growing up that were kind of – that you remember, just about immigrating here? Tse: Well, I would say the food, the food. I didn’t grow up on McDonald’s but I remember going to McDonald’s was a big treat and I think that’s one thing a lot of kids enjoy. Maybe it’s instilled in them, oh we’re going to McDonald’s, it’s your birthday, so – when you become a teenager you like the taste of burgers and fries instead of rice [laughs] and vegetables and fish. But my parents always cooked Chinese meals at home. We never ate any other kind of food and there were even strange foods that they made that we ate and we liked and even today, if I went to a restaurant, I would order something, ask for a certain dish, like bitter melon and people would say, like, “Why would you eat that? That’s disgusting! That’s bitter!” or that’s a food that’s not acceptable to the American palette, so it’s very strange, in a way, but it all comes because of our upbringing. I know some of my friends whose children who were born in the United States. Their palette is totally different. They can eat hamburgers every single day. They can go by, you know, once without rice. I would say my diet consists a lot – at least 50 percent of rice. And my mother’s generation, they would not go through a day without rice. They think they would die tomorrow if they did not have a bowl of rice today. [Laughs] So their thinking, their eating habits, their thinking, is quite different. Q: So do you remember, what kinds of treats did you have, if you didn’t go to McDonald’s when you were little, what was like a really special occasion when you were little? Tse: Going to a restaurant and eating Chinese food [laughs] was a special occasion. Really. We didn’t go out much. You know, money was pretty scarce and we had to save the rent and things like that. We didn’t have much to buy. Q: So what was your – did you live in an apartment or did you live in a house or – Tse: We lived in an apartment for at least 15 years. In high school, we finally moved, my parents moved into a house. We spent the entire family savings. When I say entire family savings, I mean including the children’s savings, like every, all our summer jobs, you know or any other money we got from relatives or friends, New Year’s, like all that, every single dime went into buying that – our house, which is of course, like, every Chinese dream to own their own land, to own their own house. Sixty-eight thousand dollars isn’t much today, but in the ‘80’s, that was a lot to my parents, so, we had a mortgage then and we all helped to pay for it when we got jobs during summers, to help pay for it. Q: So what was the house like? Tse: Very Buddhist, you know. My parents still live there. It’s on top of a store, so I mean, they’re very financially wise and rent out the first floor, you know, and they have a mortgage and they live on the second floor. Recently, they renovated the entire place. For the first time they actually stripped the walls since we moved in and they were able to do that because all of the kids are grown up and we can retire them and what else do they need money now for? We can go out every day to eat if they wanted to, but basically they’re very comfortable there. They’re well off now, they have a place to live without a mortgage. They have social security to live off and they have all their children to, for all the extras that they need. Q: So was the house – did you each have your own bedroom or how big was it? Or – Tse: I think our first apartment was bigger than our house. I remember we had like two bedrooms in our apartment but those rooms were really big. Sixty-eight dollars a month, I remember, in the ‘70’s. [Laughs] We were paying the highest rent, sixty-eight dollars. I remember my neighbor paid about 20 dollars for rent. [Laughter] And, really big apartment, that apartment has actually been demolished. They built a school there, but I remember like the reason that we moved. We didn’t actually want to move. We were forced to move. We would just run wild there. It was a really big place. Big living room. Two big bedrooms. A bathroom. Big kitchen. When we moved into our house, it’s actually smaller than our apartment, but it was our own and that’s important, to have something that you’re not kicked out. Nobody has anything to say about what you’re doing there, too. Q: So what did you, did you live together with your sisters or in the house, what was the – Tse: What was the set-up? There were actually two bedrooms there, but since my parents had one bedroom and my sisters and I all shared the second bedroom and my brother was sleeping in the living room, until he went off to college. So that was a good thing he went off to college otherwise I don’t know where he would live. And when I actually started teaching, I moved out myself because there just wasn’t enough room in the house. It’s really small. So, yeah. Q: So were all your sisters living there also? Tse: Yeah, yeah, throughout high school we had fights in there. Can you imagine three girls in one room? Bunk beds. Okay, I’m taking the top, you take the bottom. Switch the other days. Yeah, not, not easy, but if that’s all you had you didn’t think otherwise. Like now, I could never share a bedroom with my sister or, like, you don’t want to share with somebody else. And also imagine a bathroom sharing with six people. Like, I have my own bathroom now, like, if someone else comes in, I’m like, there isn’t room here for two people. So, you know, again the idea of if you never had it before, you don’t miss it. You don’t appreciate it either. Q: Do you have any other memories of that house or sort of growing up in that --- [Discussion of lighting] Q: Do you have any other memories just growing up there? Tse: A lot of memories. That was the house, my sister got married there, we put our first carpeting, wall-to-wall carpeting. It’s like as we did better, our family did better, you know, a lot of improvements made to the home. Our first big purchase was the ceiling fan. It was really, you know, like a big thing. The kids, like, we all chipped in and bought a ceiling fan, you know. [Laughs] That was a big thing. So just like, growing up, those memories, the little things that we could do to, to, to make our parents happier, to make our lives easier. Those were the enjoyable moments, like when we had Christmas, we would buy all the presents for ourselves and our parents [laughs]. You know little things like that were good memories. Q: Can you think of other memories like that, or other milestones in your growing up? Tse: In growing up? Q: Growing up, or just living in this house and just what kinds of things you remember, like buying the ceiling fan or these moments where you just, or just that you think fondly of? Tse: I have to think for a while. There are so many things. Good and bad things, that you experience with your family. I think we lived in the house the same amount of time -- no probably we lived in the apartment longer than in the house, so I think there are more memories in the apartment, at least more special memories I think you would say because we kind of played together with my sisters, or like you know, we played house or pretend things on the floor or just grew up in that apartment. When we moved to the house, our life kind of ventured outside of the house, you know. We went off to college, so we did things – or high school first. We did more things outside the house than in the house, whereas growing up as a youngster, we stayed in the house more than went out, so it was quite different. Q: Did your grandparents ever – were they still in Hong Kong? Or were they still alive? Tse: They never came to this country. They were still in Hong Kong and my grandmother passed away about five years ago and she’s – Q: Did you know her at all, or – Tse: Through the pictures and on the phone. Hearing stories about her. She was the tallest one in our family. Little things about her, but I didn’t know her personally. Q: She never came to visit. Tse: Yeah, she didn’t want to come. It was too long of travel and she had family – I mean, her other daughter and family were still there, so they were taking care of her. Q: Was that your mom’s mom or your dad’s mom? Tse: My mom’s mom. Yeah. My father’s side of the family kind of scattered. He has half-brothers and sisters. He had a difficult childhood. His family is not all together. You know, it terms, they’re not really friendly towards each another. So he doesn’t talk about it. But he has some half-brothers in the United States and some half-brothers in Holland and, we keep in touch more with the ones who are distant, yeah, than the ones who are close by. Q: Distant like Hong Kong or distant – Tse: Holland, yeah. Q: So do you know them? Tse: Yeah, actually, they came to America twice, so we actually know them better than the ones who live in New York City. Yeah, and they’re doing very well. There’s one, two of the sons are studying to be doctors in Holland, so that’s a big thing. You know, like, especially for my parents. We have two doctors in the family now, that’s a great thing. That’s too bad they’re in Holland, they can’t help us here. But it’s just good to hear that we’re all professional people working towards big goals and what my parents, you know, their parents had, you know – Q: Let me think. If we can talk about patriotism and how patriotic you feel about America, especially after 9/11 and how that changed? Tse: Well, even before 9/11, when I got my citizenship at 18 I had to go through the whole testing, the interview and then finally the swearing-in. I mean, that whole experience really touched me. And then later on, going to jury duty, you know, sharing those experiences with my students, you know, what does it mean to – what are certain things that an American is responsible for? You know, I don’t take it lightly. It’s something that a lot of people, maybe even Americans, don’t think of it as something that’s really necessary and take it that seriously. But I do take it very seriously and I’m very, when I go into jury duty I kind of hope I’m chosen so I can sit on the case and hear it and see what’s going on. I have been chosen for one and the last two times I wasn’t, so it’s just an experience that you really feel like, this is what it means, like you have the right to decide on the fate of another person. You know, the little things like that, if you didn’t, when you just study or hear about it, you kind of take it for granted and you don’t know what it really means until you’re in a position and even for our students like when you give them that situation. You’re the juror, you decide on the fate of this person. Wow, that’s empowerment. Did you think you would ever get the chance anywhere else in the world? So I do take that and I try to instill it in my students too, just this sense of – not only responsibility, but what does it feel like to be this, to be a part of this culture and to live in this country. What are the things that you need to do to be responsible and to be a citizen? Q: So is that, I mean that’s different from how your parents view living here? Tse: I think so, I mean, they’re, I mean, for my parents as real immigrants, true immigrants struggling with a family to feed, probably their goals, their world looks a little different from mine. I grew up, you know, wanting – I mean, them wanting the experience of the American Dream, but me experiencing the American Dream is different. Q: So do you feel patriotic or how do you feel about this country, especially after 9/11, I guess. Tse: You’re asking for my political views? Q: No, I guess just how you feel as a citizen living here, especially seeing what you’ve seen. Tse: I think many Americans mentioned it, but I also strongly feel that we take freedom for granted and I feel like it’s something we really need to revisit and think about because people have died for our freedoms to be living here, to be walking around with all of our freedoms, to be able to speak what we think and to be able to walk on the streets safely, relatively safely, at night. I mean, like something we take for given, Americans. And I think especially immigrants, coming here, there are a lot of things they’re pleasantly surprised about – oh, wow, we have this, we have this, like you know, TVs, there’s so many TVs and we can get Broadway shows for free, like all these incentives and all of these opportunities which they couldn’t get anywhere else. I think they really appreciate it and they really see the value of, you know, living in this great country. And I think one more thing to say about the immigrant experience is that if you ask my students, you know, where they’ll be in five, ten years, some students will say, you know, depending how long they’ve been here, even on average some students will say, I see myself here, working here. Some students say they seem themselves back in their country, like when their chance comes, after they’ve gotten their education, their degree, they’re going to go back and do something else. It’s really interesting. Q: Yeah, that is interesting. Do you feel like you’ll stay here in New York? Tse: [Laughs] Yeah, I love New York. I grew up in Brooklyn, but like New York, I’m a New Yorker, yeah. If I could afford it, I would live in New York City. Q: Yeah, it’s hard. I guess that’s about all unless you have anything else to say? Tse: I’ve said so much. I can’t even remember what I’ve said. Q: I think that’s about good. Thanks. Thank you. END OF INTERVIEW Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕請簡單講一下你是在哪里出生的，以及你父親跟你講的故事。 TSE：好的，我在--- [中斷] 問：我是Val Wang。 TSE：你要衝著攝像機講。 問：請稍微介紹一下你自己，你的名字，你在哪里出生，以及你的年齡。你的年齡？以及我們現在是在什麽地方。 TSE：我不用講自己的年齡吧？好吧，我告訴你，沒有關係。只要你不讓我的學生知道就可以。他們以爲我25歲。我們可以開始了嗎？還是我可以回答了？ 問：可以了，只是姓名，年齡，我們所在的地方。 TSE：我名Mei Ling，姓Tse。我出生在香港，在我四歲的時候，我和我全家人移民到美國。我有兩個姐姐和一個弟弟。我們來這裏的時候，他只有一歲，我今年35歲。我在Lower East Side預備高中教書。正如我剛才所講，我出生在香港，我們全家是通過我父親移民到美國來的 – 是因爲我父親的工作。我是這樣跟我的學生描述這個有趣而又難以置信的故事的，我父親的老闆非常慷慨，爲了讓我父親在他餐館裏打工，他把我們全家申請到美國來。 那個老闆在布魯克林區開了一家餐館，我父親就爲他打工。我父親這麽多年來一直是個忠誠的雇員，一直幹到他退休。我們在布魯克林區長大，離那個老闆所在的布魯克林區Sheepshead Bay地區不遠。我在那裏上的高中 – 小學，幼稚園。實際上，我那時連一個英文單詞都不會，因爲我移民到這裏時，一個英文單詞都不會。我父母不講英文，他們的朋友也不講英文。因此，即使在和朋友玩兒的時候，你都在學習英語。但因爲我沒有講英文的朋友，在上學的時候我沒有任何英文語言能力。我記得，我去的那間學校沒有雙語課程 – 學校裏沒有中國人，沒有我們現在的雙語課程。我記得上學的第一天我很害怕，因爲我聽不懂別人講話。我記得放學的時候，我躲在櫃子裏，老師不得不把我擡出來讓我回家。這是我最早的記憶。我跟我的學生講這些是想讓他們不要有太大的壓力，因爲每個剛到這裏的人都會有一段很困難的適應期。的確很難融入，甚至對於我，當時只有四、五歲，也不容易。但後來就好了，我學英文，上了高中和大學--- 問：你花了多長時間學英文？或者說，多久之後你才覺得適應了這裏的環境？ TSE：我記得讀---，那些早期記憶之後幾年的事情我就記不清了，但我記得在三年級的時候自己讀書。在三年級夏天的時候，我去圖書館借了很多的書來讀。因此，我差不多在八歲的時候就能讀三年級的書，因此我來這裏的頭三年是很關鍵的。我不知不覺就學了很多。但具體是怎樣學的，我不記得了。 問：你在家裏講什麽話？ TSE：在家我的父母講廣州話，那是我們使用的唯一的語言。 問：在那段時間他們的英語有沒有進步？ TSE：我的父母是藍領工人。我父親在餐館打工，他是服務員，我母親是裁縫，所以他們基本上用不上英文。總的來說，他們有去上課，想學，但直到現在，他們都用不上。他們在自己的社區裏生活，沒有必要用英文，所以他們---，我想他們還不能同美國人交流。所以，我們基本上---，實際上，他們這麽多年一直躲在自己的小圈子裏。 問：你談到在你長大的地方中國孩子不是很多。那麽在你小的時候，周圍沒有中國人的經歷如何？ TSE：我剛才講過，我有兩個姐姐和一個弟弟，所以我們全家基本上都在一起，和自己玩兒。我們有朋友，但他們基本上是學校同學。放學之後，我們很少跟他們在一起。我們回家後都很聽話。我們父母工作很忙，所以我們大多時間都在家裏。我們在家裏玩兒，去圖書館。我的姐姐是我的朋友，因此基本上我們在一起玩兒。 問：你是否有去唐人街，布魯克林區，或皇后區的華人社區？你是什麽時候去那裏的？ TSE：我們經常去，因爲我父母，尤其是我母親，在唐人街工作。在我們長大後，我大姐在Mott街上中文學校，CCBA [The Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association]，我二姐和弟弟後來也有去。我是家裏唯一一個沒有上中文學校的。聽我母親講，是我不想去，所以她就沒有管我。據她說，我就是這樣沒有學寫和閱讀中文。但談回你的問題，我們每個星期日都有去唐人街，因爲那天我們全家休息，我父母也喜歡去那裏。他們在那裏吃點心，和附近的親戚朋友呆在一起。基本上，就是這些聯繫，每個星期日出來，去餐館吃飯，逛街，和我父母的朋友呆在一起。 問：你講過你們在這裏沒有親戚。他們是怎樣認識人的？你的父母怎樣認識人的？ TSE：基本上是從他們---，他們並不是在這裏沒有任何親戚，而且像家裏的朋友，比如我母親和她的同事是很好的朋友。我們在這裏還有些遠房表親。實際上，我父親還參加了一個組織，從中國同一個地方來的人都聚在一起，有這麽一個叫“Tees”的組織，T-S-A團。你也許能在唐人街看到，在Division Street。我父親會去那裏賭博，男人坐在一起聊天。因此那裏有這麽個組織，他會帶他的家人、孩子去那裏，見他的朋友。這樣，他們會知道，哦，這是你的女兒，這是你可愛的女兒和聽話的兒子，向人家炫耀一下自己的家人。那樣才能使我們覺得還有其他人在關心我們。 問：那些人是從中國哪里來的？ TSE：大多是從中國廣東省廣州來的。 問：你能否再談一下你長大，上高中，後來上大學，去哪個大學，以及你是怎樣做那些決定的？ TSE：我去了一所本地的學校，小學畢業之後，我去了附近的高中，布魯克林區學院的Midwood高中。那裏有更多的亞洲人，但不是新的、第一代華人移民。我是說，那裏肯定有家裏很富有的華人，我記得有一些孩子的家裏是醫生，非常有錢，也許是美國第二代或第三代移民。我只是記得那裏沒有ESL [English as Second Language]課程，但我記得我姐姐的年級裏有一個新移民，她是越南人。我姐姐差不多成爲那個女孩子的代理父母，因爲我們知道新移民的感受。我記得我姐姐把她的朋友帶到家裏一起做功課，呆在一起。我記得我姐姐差不多擔當起這個新來者的老師加朋友的角色。我想學校裏大多數的亞裔是第二代或第三代移民。後來我決定步我姐姐的後塵去紐約大學，因爲她先去的那裏。 當然，紐約大學有從全世界各個地方來的人，這是吸引我的原因之一。我想找一間大家都有類似經歷的學校，同時那裏的人都有豐富的經驗，我想認識更多各種各樣的人。當然，人人都知道紐約大學的學生來自世界各地，有很多各種各樣的背景。我在那裏有很好的經歷。 問：你在高中和在大學的朋友有什麽不同嗎？ TSE：實際上，這很有意思。我是在大學後才第一次認識講中文的朋友的，他們是新移民，也許是第一代美籍華人，我在學校講中文。這真的是第一次，我在那裏認識了講中文的中國朋友。 問：你是怎樣決定成爲一名教師的呢？你能談一下整個經過嗎？ TSE：實際上，在高中的時候，在暑假有一個叫SYEP [Summer Youth Employment Program]的專案，政府資助學生在市里各個地方工作，我想贊助這個專案的公司或組織在唐人街。所以，在我14歲的時候，我就開始在唐人街工作。我從14歲到18歲上高中的時候，都在唐人街實習和做暑期工。我每個夏天都在Chinese-American Planning Council打工，我做指導員。這些都是很高的頭銜，但我當時只有14歲，應該算是指導員助理。還有其他人管我們。我們的職責不多，像是和---，差不多是看孩子，看管那些比我們小的孩子。因此，從我14歲起，我的大部分工作都是在華人社區。在高中最後一年，我記得我的專案是帶一些比我稍微大一點的孩子，他們也是高中生，和我差不多一樣大。他們大多數在唐人街上學，但不講英文。於是我就開始做輔導，教些其他水平的學生。自那開始，我對教育産生興趣。在上大學的時候，我就想這是我要學的。 後來到紐約大學時，我繼續在Chinese-American Planning Council工作，在不同的領域做些其他事務，我在那個公司做了很長一段時間。 問：你說你大學畢業之後就開始教書了？是--- TSE：是的，實際上，在大學我的專業是基礎教育。我在幼稚園教了六個月，在布魯克林區，但我不喜歡那裏。那裏的孩子很累人，我正好有機會休假，便又回到CPC，在那裏全職工作了一年。在那時，我決定重返學校，攻讀作爲第二語言英語教學的碩士學位。後來，我在紐約大學找到一份工作。這樣，我在紐約大學全職工作，教一個寫作班，並開始讀我的碩士學位。一年之後，我來這個學校面試，然後便在這裏工作。現在差不多十年已經過去了，我還在這裏，仍然喜歡在這裏做。我以前也講過，這裏的學生---，學校裏大約百分之七十是移民來的學生。在那百分之七十的學生裏，又有百分之六十、六十五是亞裔移民，亞洲，中國的移民。因此，就好像轉了一圈又重新回到我的背景。 問：你能稍微講一下你教的班，孩子們的問題，以及你是如何解決他們這些問題的？ TSE：這個學校有一個非常好的ESL課程。我們有各種程度的ESL班，從初學者開始。在10年前，我們接收一些只有最基礎英語水平的學生。我記得教些非常基礎的內容，比如ABC字母表。當然，現在因爲有English Regents，我們不再招收那類學生。但我們仍然有初級水平的學生，屬於ESL 1，2。我們也有中級，3和4。5和6、7是過渡型英語課，從英文作爲第二語言進入主流英語課程。我教過所有水平的ESL課程，從初級到中高級。我很吃驚看到在非常短的時間裏，一些學生在這個國家只待了三個月，從三個月到兩年，他們要掌握很多技能，很多語言技能。最終的目標是，對於他們來講，學習足夠的英語通過English Regents， 這是紐約市規定的獲得高中畢業證書的要求。這是一個很大的挑戰，非常大的挑戰，他們對此也有很大壓力。他們能在兩年內學習這麽多的知識簡直令人難以置信。想想看，如果我們要去另外一個國家，我們能在兩年內學會一種語言嗎？簡直難以置信。 問：在任教的十年裏，據你觀察，這裏的學生情況有什麽變化？他們從哪里來？他們的英文水平如何？在過去十年裏，你覺得他們有什麽樣的問題？ TSE：我剛才也講過，十年以前我們招收只有基礎水平的學生，我們從字母表開始教起。同時，我們也有英語文法非常好的學生，十年前大多數學生來自香港。如果你看一下現在學生的構成，我們大多數的學生來自中國偏僻的城鎮或農村，特別是福建省。我想我們現在80%的學生來自福建。在那些學生裏，差不多一半沒有上到六年級。這是另外一個挑戰，因爲他們連自己的語言都掌握不好，所以他們很難把他們的語言知識轉移到第二或第三語言上。 問：他們的父母通常在這裏做這麽？ TSE：我想他們父母差不多百分之九十九是藍領工人，在工廠工作，餐館。有一少部分學生的父母是搞技術的，醫生，或許是中國的護士。但當然，他們來這裏之後不得不找工作維持生活，因此，他們也算是藍領階級。 問：你認爲他們在這裏有什麽困難？這些和你當時來的時候所遇到的困難有什麽不同？ TSE：他們的困難？ 問：是的。 TSE：好的。有趣的是，因爲現在回想起當年我們小的時候很多東西我們都沒有，我們沒有玩具娃娃，我們沒有錢買一些東西。我的衣服都是舊的，因爲我有兩個姐姐。當我跟學生講起這個的時候，他們都覺得不可思議。你爲什麽不想多要一些？你的父母不給你買東西嗎？所以，實際上，我覺得現在很多學生的生活要比我當時好，或至少一樣。我覺得你必須要縱向衡量，在一些特定時期，你並不太想你沒有的東西，因爲你沒有。但是如果你以前有過，後來突然間沒有了，你就會開始對比，覺得，啊，天哪，這是怎麽回事？爲什麽我們的生活越來越糟？或者，我們到底怎麽了？因此，我認爲對於大多數學生，因爲他們以前的生活不好。至少好幾家人都跟我講過，在中國的時候，他們的父母都不工作，只是待在家裏，日子一天天過去。他們非常感激能夠來這裏，他們不關心他們穿的衣服。他們覺得教育的確是最重要的事情。 問：很有趣。我想我們可以談一下---，應該開始談一下9/11，你們離那個地區非常近。我想先談一下那天，你們都在哪里。如果大家都在這裏，那麽談一下後來發生的情況，學校是如何處理，怎樣安排學生的，是否後來因此引起學校的一系列的變化，以及是否對學生或教師進行了心理輔導？我想我們都知道那天發生了什麽，你們和學生在哪里。 TSE：兩年前---，去年，我們舉辦了一次寫作，差不多是紀念那一天。那天我的一個學生交給我這篇文章。當時他在從中國飛到美國的路上，飛機停飛。因爲這裏發生的事情，他們不得不改航線在加州降落。他記得，倒不是非常害怕，而是有一種不知道你的命運的感覺。在文章裏，他寫到他們被困在那個地方，沒有人知道要發生什麽事情。滿腦子胡思亂想，不知道要飛回中國 還是繼續飛往目的地。因此，回想起來覺得很有趣，那些在那期間來這裏的人也許對所發生的事情有獨特的記憶。對於我們，在那天早晨，在一間教室裏你能看到煙，看到姊妹塔中的一座已經不見了。我們記得，學校想把全部學生疏散到禮堂，這樣人們不至於發瘋或恐慌。我們只是在等消息，不知道發生了什麽事情，是一架飛機還是其他什麽東西。當然，當我們知道的時候，我們不能離開學校，地鐵也停了，因此那天晚上我們想在學校野營。學生們都---，我們全都被震驚了。但我們沒有，學校裏大多數人都不認識大廈裏的人。因此我想---，如此震驚以至於我們都沒有想現實中發生了什麽事情。我們都傻了，課也不上了。我們都坐在那裏等待。學生們，沒有人講話。他們想繼續當天的事情，但不知道該說些什麽。的確是很艱難的一天--- 問：你是說大多數孩子都不在這裏住嗎？他們不能走路回家，或者--- TSE：有些學生能夠回家，他們家就在附近，但剩下的學生只好等著。我們打開了所有的電視，只是等消息說地鐵開通，我們要不要讓學生在3點後離開。 問：那天之後，那個星期還有沒有開課？班裏，或者學校怎樣了？ TSE：學校讓我們盡可能地繼續，但是當然，當你回家後意識到所發生的事情。幾天之後，過了兩三天，你確實意識到現實發生的事情，你的確很難再繼續下去。我們那時有一個社工，她的確有到處走動和每一個班裏的學生談話。我們感謝她和學生們談一些老師不方便談或不知道如何談的話題。的確很困難，因爲你對所發生的事情有自己的想法，而且我們學校也有一些穆斯林學生。 問：他們是如何經歷9/11，或者他們在9/11之後的感受如何？ TSE：實際上，他們不談這個。我的意思是說，後來，一年之後，因爲我們聽到人們有些仇恨，以及他們鄰近所發生的事情。但在那個時候，我想我們都嚇壞了。沒有責備，沒有對他們的仇恨，我們試圖保持低調，只是想度過那段時間。 問：他們有在附近談論發生的事情嗎？他們是怎樣講他們的經歷的？ TSE：他們只是---，從我們在報紙上看到的，他們都在躲避，他們沒有太---，我想他們---，這所學校很安全，所以我們非常想---，我的意思是說大多數學生都彼此認識。並不是我們的學生在指責其他學生。但當他們回到家裏後，我想他們有不同的經歷，只是沒有在學校裏講。後來他們講了一些出來。特別是一年後，大家知道了一些小事情。他們第一年沒有怎麽講，關於他們個人的感情，以及他們後來遇到的事情。 問：那一年之後是怎樣知道的呢？是不是一年內都有持續的心理輔導，是怎麽回事？ TSE：實際上，只有一部分學生一對一地接受社工的心理輔導，一些教師是向整個班講的。在第二或第三天，我們有坐在一圈發言。我想那些學生實在不想談這些。我不知道是否是因爲年齡差距，還是他們認爲這與他們無關。但他們就是不想談論這個，只是想忘掉它，說，Mei Ling老師，我們能不能繼續做以前做的事情？好像就是想忘掉它，繼續新的生活。 問：他們是不是一直都是那樣？他們總是不想談論這個，還是--- TSE：第二年我們舉行了一次紀念活動。每年9/11，學校都要搞一次紀念活動。我們讓學生在牆壁上寫些東西，他們的文章，他們的感受，那天發生的事情。只是在那天，只是在那一天，過了之後，他們又不想談了。 問：你怎麽樣，你那天的經歷如何？你感受如何，或反應如何，或--- TSE：實際上，我姐姐曾在那幢樓裏工作過，她們公司在幾個月之前搬出那幢樓。因此，除了我姐姐之前已經搬走以外，我本人不認識在那裏工作的人。因此，我不是很擔心。但我記得就好像是一團糟，你打電話給所有你認識的人，確信他們都沒事。但對於其他人還是很難熬，你整天對著電視聽新聞。 問：你的學生有沒有受影響，比如他們的父母失去了工作等？ TSE：我知道當時大家都被動員起來，幫助學生填表格，向FEMA [聯邦緊急事件管理處]申請補助。很多學生擔心他們的父母失去這裏的工作。甚至那些不在唐人街這裏住的學生，他們的父母在這裏工作。因此，一些社工幫助那些失去工作的家長申請補助，幫助他們申請經濟資助。 問：都有一些什麽樣的援助專案？因爲我不太清楚有什麽樣的援助專案。 TSE：有FEMA專案。我們大家都知道有，因此我們叫學生去那裏拿表格。然後他們回來叫我們幫他們填。我的一個朋友的兒子正好在那個辦公室工作，這樣我在那裏也算是有一些熟人，從他們那裏拿了一些表格。我有一個---，他們實際上有---，他們---，我是說那個表格有中文的，所以填寫並不太困難， 但主要是讓人們去那裏排隊，跟他們講去那裏獲得別人的幫助沒事。 問：人們都不想去嗎？獲得幫助，去尋求幫助？ TSE：我想他們最後都很感激，學生們很感激。我覺得起初他們都不相信美國會有這樣的事情，他們能得到這些幫助。但是，他們都有跟父母講，這樣一來一去，家長們都知道了，他們得到了幫助，一些學生得到他們需要的幫助。 問：誰有資格申請，以及如何申請--- TSE：在我們學校，有一段時間所有的學生都有免費午餐，因此可以說百分之九十九點九的學生都有份。 問：吃免費午餐？ TSE：是的。還包括其他一些專案。 問：在9/11之後，還有其他資助專案嗎？學校有沒有申請資助？有沒有其他額外的資助？ TSE：我們學校沒有直接受到事件的影響，但我知道有其他基金。我們確實有拿到---，我想大概一年之後，或在同一年，有不同的組織跟我們聯繫一些事情。我們帶了一百個學生去百老彙看“美人和野獸”。那是其中一個組織辦的，因爲我們學校離出事地點這麽近。我們還有做了其他一些事情。我想，可以遺憾地講，我們通過那個事件得到了一些福利。 問：是哪個機構組織看“美人和野獸”的？ TSE：我想是百老彙。我不知道是那個組織，百老彙藝術家什麽的。 問：他們給了你們一百張票？ TSE：是的，帶孩子去看演出。 問：那個經歷如何？ TSE：演出棒極了，我是說，每次你帶些孩子去百老彙，演出本身就很有意思。而且，我們有跟他們講這些票是怎麽來的。正是因爲這個原因，他們非常感激，知道別人在關心他們。我也非常感激他們能讓我們帶一百個學生到百老彙免費看演出。這是很難得的。 問：是的，很不錯。在9/11之後，有沒有其他健康方面的影響？世貿大廈的倒塌以及這個地區的污染有沒有造成哮喘病例的增長？ TSE：我們注意到有一些空氣污染。有幾天，尤其在最初的幾個星期，很明顯空氣裏有些東西。我們不能開空調，因爲篩檢程式有可能被污染。我儘量不打開我的窗戶，因爲你不知道---，如果你聽別人談起，你會很害怕，不知道會發生什麽事情。我想大家，尤其是那些孩子，確實無所謂。他們沒有太考慮一些後遺症，不覺得空氣裏有什麽有毒物質。我知道當時學校鬧著買空氣篩檢程式等東西，但因爲缺乏資金，我們沒有做這麽多。我想他們只是清掃了空調裏的篩檢程式，僅此而已。 問：學校是否有很多資金，你說資金不夠？你能再講詳細一些嗎？ TSE：我們學校的資金問題？ 問：是的。 TSE：我想這是上面的問題。這取決於他們要怎樣---，他們要把錢花在哪里。我是說，教師不---，我們的確沒有權力決定如何支配學校的錢，是否應該雇更多的教師或其他輔助人員。我們確實沒有這個權力。如果我們有的話，也許事情會不太一樣。但你在問，我們是否有更多的資助？我想我們學校還算不錯，我是說我們粉筆方面沒有問題，不缺粉筆。但書總是不夠，如果我們要多搞一些書，或使用新教材，我們必須等啊等啊，直到有了錢去買。因此，主要是買教科書的資金比較難解決，[聽不清楚] 問：因此，實際上，我不知道我們是否已經談過這個--- [Lan要求停止錄音，調整一下光線，一個燈滅了] TSE：燈亮不了了，可能壞了吧。 [一起談話] TSE：這已經不是第一次了。燈滅了之後不久又會自己亮起來，要不我們就不得不叫管理員來。他們今天不會過來修的。 問：只要不閃就可以。 [錄音暫停] 問：好的，我們剛才已經告一段落。那我們現在再談一下你的童年，你是否還記得來美國的情景，你父母爲什麽來這裏，以及爲什麽選擇來紐約？再稍微講一下你所記得的小時候在香港的事情。 TSE：當我的學生問我什麽時候移民到這裏的時候，我說是1972年。我們查了一下歷史，那時候尼克松當總統搞軍備。他們想要別的國家的人來這裏移民。移民大門已經打開，那時候我們來這裏也相對容易一些。我們全家是我父親的老闆申請過來的，他和我父親有商業聯繫。他非常慷慨地申請我們過來，實際上還支付了我們來這裏的費用。當時我們家裏有我母親，我父親，我的兩個姐姐和一個弟弟，還有我自己，一共是六個。沒有比這更好的事情了，我父親爲這個人工作了25年，直到他退休，直到那個人去世。接下來講一下爲什麽我父母來這裏。我父母是在臺山出生的，在美國叫Toishan。在戰爭期間，他們移居到香港，我父母是在香港認識的。在他們有機會移民來美國之前，我們四個已經出生了。我們是我們家族裏第一批來這裏的，我母親姐姐一家當時還在香港。我父親那邊的親戚各自去了不同的地方。他們去了荷蘭，我有兩個表兄弟在荷蘭。我們在美國還有一些表兄弟，但都是遠親，我們不常來往。我的父母移居這裏當然是想有更多的機會。他們不想讓我們在香港長大。他們想讓我們來這個新的國家，能有更多的機會。可能還有那些關於美國的說法，金色的門，地板上的黃金。關於美國的傳聞，我父母是信的。他們相信，他們相信美國夢。儘管我父親來的時候不得不做廉價工，我母親來的時候不知道要做什麽，他們決定冒這個風險，一起來這裏。我們也許算是很幸運，能夠一起來這裏。而現在我的一些學生，他們自己在這裏，或一些學生的父母先到這裏。因爲他們沒有---，由於一些手續問題，他們不能全家一起來，只好兩地分居。我想我們很幸運能夠 全家一起過來，當然那個時候有些幫助我們這些新來人的專案。具體的細節我已不記得了，我只是有些印象，當時有很多人幫助我們。我父親的生意，他的老闆，在附近交的朋友，中國家庭，主要是他們幫助我們在這裏安頓下來的，開始新的生活--- 問：你父親在香港時做什麽？ TSE：他是船員，當他來這裏時，因爲他在這裏認識一個人。那個人信任他，而且我想非常信任他。當我父親來這裏時就爲他工作。 問：他是船員，那他經常跑船，不在香港？ TSE：是的。 問：你是否還記得小時候在香港的事情？ TSE：我父母在那裏開了一家小糖果店，我們有幾張在香港時的照片。我和兩個姐姐坐在糖果店的門前，是黑白相片，還有在花園，和其他不同的地方。我姐姐記得多一些，因爲她來這裏時已經七歲了。我離開時四歲，所以記得不是很多。只是有一點記憶，一些地方，後來我長大後又回了兩次香港，已經不記得那些地方了。香港是一個很大的城市，就好像紐約市42街，所以對我不算是很大的變化。 問：你能談一下你回去的經歷嗎？回去的情形如何？ TSE：我母親的姐姐仍和她一家住在那裏。我回去的時候有和他們聯繫，他們帶我去了一些地方，但我不記得了。那些地方很獨特。實際上，在我回去之前，我母親已經回去過香港，她老家基本上沒有什麽改變，比如你還能夠找到以前的一些地方， 生活水平仍然很低，但是在城市裏，如果你呆在城市的賓館裏，我想和紐約市沒有什麽區別。是這樣的。 問：你有沒有也去她的老家？ TSE：我不認識那裏的人，我去香港是和朋友一起去的，不是和我母親去的。如果我再回去，和我母親一起去尋根可能會更有意義一些。但我母親的姐姐在那裏，她的女兒和我一樣大，她帶我出去逛。她母親身體不好，所以她不能多跟我講他們那裏的生活。但香港是很現代化的城市，就像紐約一樣。她在市里長大。他們的確沒有移民美國的想法。在97年以前我有回去，我問過她，他們在那裏生活得很開心。他們全部的生活都在那裏。沒有理由離開那裏。他們在那裏有正規的職業，我想他們即使來這裏也是來旅遊。 問：你感覺和她親近嗎，還是說你以前從來沒有見過她，對嗎？ TSE：只是看相片。 問：感覺如何？ TSE：令人吃驚的是，我們很親近。我們像是一家人，儘管我們沒有見過面或講過話，只是通過父母來往信件。我們好像彼此都很瞭解，我們所學的專業，我們的擅長，我們父母對我們的看法，等等。因爲有血緣關係，我們的確很親近，後來也一直有聯繫。 問：她和你一樣大嗎？她在那裏做什麽？ TSE：她是圖形設計師，她姐姐和姐夫有自己的生意，她的另外一個姐姐那時是個年輕的舞蹈演員。[笑] 我想她現在是個家庭主婦，但他們全都有自己的夢想，但都是在香港，沒有任何要離開那裏的想法。 問：你去那裏感到最驚奇的是什麽？ TSE：和紐約比起來，那裏沒有多大差別。當然語言不同，那裏更多是講廣州話，他們也高興我們跟他們講廣州話。在一些地方，我們也跟他們講英文，這也沒有問題，因爲他們懂英文。 問：你感到你回去最驚奇的是什麽？ TSE：使我最驚奇的是香港並沒有很大不同，如果你到國外旅行，你以爲那裏會很不一樣，但確實沒有什麽不同。這是個很大的城市。我住在市中心的一家賓館。如果你去一些較貧窮的地方，當然那裏的生活是很不同的。那裏有野狗，如果你去墓地，那種傳統風格的墓地，你也許能夠看到一些舊的傳統，但城市裏和紐約沒有太大差別。 問：我想問你是否有回家的感覺？或者你感覺哪里是你的家？你在那裏是否感到像在家裏一樣？ TSE：我是個遊客。我只是去那裏旅遊。我是說，自從我來這裏之後，我一直沒有回去過。如果沒有我姑姑一家在那裏，我不會去看任何人。因爲我這麽長時間都在美國，18歲的時候在法院宣誓入籍。我想我認爲自己是美籍華人。 問：你父母怎麽樣？他們認爲自己是哪里人？ TSE：我覺得對於大多數家庭，如果你在一個地方住了很長時間，即使你不把它看成你的家，如果你在那裏呆了很長時間，他們很難再在其他地方生活。我記得在我們很小的時候，他們說，退休之後，我們要回香港住，要把我們留在這裏。 但我不再聽到他們那麽說了，我想是因爲他們已經習慣了這裏，喜歡在這裏住。他們在這裏有家，有他們的生活。如果再搬到另外一個國家，回香港，或中國，他們需要重新開始，交新的朋友，需要重新安頓下來。這裏一切都很方便。我父母非常傳統。他們沒有美國朋友。基本上，他們生活在自己的圈子裏，非常閉塞。但我認爲他們過得很舒適。他們知道如何坐地鐵去想去的地方，去公園，中央公園，或者布魯克林區植物園。他們知道怎樣去一些地方，他們隨時可以去唐人街，他們現在過得很舒服。我想他們也認爲美國是他們的家。 問：你能否也談一下Lan所講的成爲美國人的過程，其中的困難，在什麽時候你感到---，或者你是否記得一些個別的事件使你覺得自己是屬於這裏的或感覺現在是美國人？或不是？ TSE：“什麽是美國人？”這個問題很有爭議，有很多種解釋。我想最好的回答是當我的學生問我，當然是作爲思考的問題，我們應該怎樣看待自己。如果你要回答這個問題，你要十分小心，因爲你會影響到其他人而引起驚慌，對不對？但我想說，我一直認爲自己是美籍華人。中國人是因爲我的文化背景，我的外表，我成長的方式，我父母向我灌輸的價值觀。但我想我也有美國化的一面，因爲我在這個國家生活，受到其他價值觀，其他行爲，其他文化的影響，從而造就了今天的我。所以，我不能說我只是中國人，因爲你如果生活在中國，你會說你只是中國人，對嗎？並不因爲你在美國生活就是美國人，因爲你有其他歷史的聯繫。所以，我們說美國是一個大熔爐。美國人不僅是一種人，你也不僅是一種人，你總是與另外一個國家或文化有聯繫。因此，我認爲，即使兩代或三代之後，比如我孩子的孩子的孩子，我要教他們做美籍華人。我想要他們認爲自己是美籍華人。 問：你的學生怎樣對待這個問題？他們渴望成爲美國人嗎？ TSE：他們起初是這樣想。他們很驚奇我講中文，即使我看上去像中國人。慢慢地，他們認爲我是地道的美國人。所以他們認爲我是美國人。只是在我演講之後，或認識我兩三個月之後，他們覺得我在一些方面很中國化，有相似的價值觀，或懂得他們的背景。他們才開始意識到，哦，原來你也是中國人，或者說是美籍華人。 問：你爲什麽說你自己非常中國化，或者你是怎樣知道的呢？ TSE：我不想談典型的美國人是什麽樣子，但你可以觀察在這裏長大的美籍華人的一些行爲，在紐約市里長大的青少年比較能說。不是說我不能說，只是他們的行爲，和他們交的朋友，他們的生活條件，他們的環境，這些對他們個人有很大的影響。他們看的電視節目，他們在一起的朋友，他們讀的書，如果有讀的話。我認爲那些外部因素對他們的影響超過內部因素的影響。他們在表面上更加融入社會，他們更加吸收了一些外表的事物。和我那些只來美國兩年的學生比起來，他們這些年來都是在中國長大，所以還沒有被同化。即使他們不得不做一些事情，但他們沒有完全接受，或是說你沒有必要喜歡它。也許一些事情他們也不理解，不會認爲他們自己也是美國人。 問：你認爲那些在七八十年代在這裏長大的和現在五歲的時候移民到這裏的孩子有什麽不同？在文化上和社交方面有什麽不同？ TSE：我想先談一下相似之處，因爲正如我先前所講，我跟我的學生講我上學的時候聽不懂教師講課。我記得開始的時候是從ABC學起。而且有年齡差距，我當時只有四歲，他們是十六、七歲，這是相似之處。首要的問題是學英文，聽不懂其他人講話，不理解文化背景，或[聽不清楚]。區別是我當時很小，玩兒也用不著講話，也許能夠在不知不覺中學，那時還沒有這麽正規，那時只有四五歲。現在學生們的情況就不一樣了。那些十三、四歲來美國的學生也許正處在他們生活中的交叉路口。因爲他們已經成年，根據他們不同的英文水平，我認爲我們大多數學生都有一些英文基礎。他們在自己的國家學過英文。因此，他們懂得一些語法規則。有時他們在這裏成功與否取決於他們的英文程度。因爲年齡和高中畢業的壓力，你在這裏能交多少朋友。我想，你在這裏認識的美國朋友會或多或少使你更加融入美國文化。因此，區別在於年齡，我認爲環境也有很大不同。我記得，我們能夠在街上玩兒到很晚。當然，儘管我沒有在很好的地區長大，但也是不錯的地區。我記得有一段時間，我回家必須要有人送，因爲街邊有些閒散的人。當然，這在紐約這算不了什麽，因爲很多人都在街邊閒逛。但對於我父母來說，他們認爲九點以後只有壞人才在街邊閒逛，因此一些特定的時間我們不能出去。但同樣，這是我父母那個年代的事情，他們非常傳統，非常---。因爲他們這裏誰也不認識，他們的保護意識很強，對我們的管教非常嚴格。我想我們的學生現在所受的約束家比較少。他們差不多都是靠自覺。他們要學會自立，他們是很獨立的。也許他們來之前在中國是很獨立的。我們很多的學生以前住校，沒有在家住，他們不得不學做飯，自己打掃。因此他們很幸運，來這裏的時候就已經有這些技能了。因爲他們現在不得不自立，要承擔很多責任，差不多一夜之間就變成熟了。沒有父母的幫助和建議，他們不得不自己摸索學習所有的事情。 問：你說你成長的時候不如這些學生獨立？ TSE：是的，沒錯。 問：你是否有過一段叛逆時期，想交一些家長管得不嚴的朋友，想和那些人一樣？ TSE：我覺得我不太像那些在學校裏很活躍的朋友，但是我姐姐非常反叛。我記得她兩次離家出走，我們在一個美國男孩家裏找到她，他們只是朋友。後來，幾年以後，我們也認識那個人，他們只是朋友。那是在初中的時候，她差不多有12或13歲。我父母不讓她做一些事情，大概是不能太晚回家，她想在外面呆更晚，或想去晚會，或做她想做的事情。她是很反叛的一個。她離家出走，或很晚回家，故意不和我一起回家之類的事情。只是想告訴我父母，嗨，我不想遵循你們的規則。我是好孩子。我基本上都聽我父母的話。我在學校成績不錯，我努力學習。我讀書。書籍確實是我的好朋友。我讀了很多書。我聽我父母的話。 問：你還有個弟弟。 TSE：我有個弟弟。 問：他反叛嗎？ TSE：沒有。我覺得我們很閉塞。我們一家在一起做事情，比如星期六我們一起打球。我們一起外出，在一起。因爲我的父母那時也沒有很多朋友，因此我們總是在一起。我父母想找些事情讓我們一起做，我們成爲了朋友，彼此做伴。 問：你的妹妹現在怎麽樣了？ TSE：我的弟弟？ 問：那個反叛的姐姐。 TSE：她結婚了。她在皇后區住，在一家律師樓工作。我的大姐也是教師。她在Harlem教書。她教小學。 問：你的弟弟呢？ TSE：我的弟弟現在沒有工作。他是搞電腦的，他很難找到一個好公司，做他感興趣的事情。 問：我想，你能否---。我不知道你是否有其他什麽關於來這裏的困難要講，在你上高中的時候，你遇到的融入社會的各種各樣的困難？ TSE：我認爲，作爲在這裏長大的第一代移民，我父母對我生活的影響很大，那些對美國青少年重要的事情對我們沒有那麽重要，去舞會或---。我有去畢業典禮，但沒有去舞會。那些事情對我不太重要，還有在一起閒逛，去別人家裏睡覺，那些典型美國學生做的事情。周末在一起閒逛對我確實不是那麽重要。我想這也許是因爲我父母的教育方式，我是在我父母眼皮底下長大的，我覺得那段時期很特殊。我不知道該怎麽講。 問：你現在不這麽認爲嗎？ TSE：是的。 問：在哪些方面？ TSE：我想我是成長在很有凝聚力的家庭裏的。我想對於現在的學生，即使他們認爲家庭很重要，很多學生還是和父母住在家裏，但其他的一些孩子是家裏是單親父母，那肯定會影響他們的思維方式和生活方式。 問：你認爲會對他們有什麽樣的影響？ TSE：比如要瞭解他們自己是誰。你可以從他們的穿著看出來，他們去一些特定的地方買東西。他們只來到這裏六個月，但知道去什麽地方買衣服。或者他們穿特定的衣服，因爲他們想融入。他們從來沒有穿過這些，現在他們自己一個人，或有單親父母，他們想要---。他們也許能夠說服單親父母給他們買些東西，因爲只有那個單親父母才能給他們買。我們很多學生也有工作。他們做些半職工作，在麵包房工作，或當服務員，做零工。這樣他們會有一點零錢。學校是第二學習場所，即是有年齡大一些的學生。我們一些學生高中畢業，很少一部分，差不多百分之二，實際上在中國高中畢業，準備上大學。但因爲他們想在這裏獲得高中畢業證書，同時也提高他們的英文，他們來到這個學校。因此，他們的目標有一些不同。我認爲這裏的學生比其他學生成熟一些，因爲他們的年齡，以及他們很多都是自己一個人在這裏。他們住在這裏，他們不得不維持自己的生活。他們有不同的想法和生活目標。 問：你認爲他們對自己的看法同你在他們的那個年齡有何不同，因爲你談到他們比較看重服裝和時髦。 TSE：並非所有的，只是一部分。在這個學校有一部分學生是從香港來的，他們都很時髦。你能看出來。當你在樓道裏走的時候，如果你不認識他們，你會知道他們是從香港來的。只是看他們的穿著，他們的頭型，或走路的樣子。當然，從他們講廣州話也可以看出來。他們的個性也有些不同。他們的褲子垂到屁股上。他們想非常美國化。 他們穿特定的體恤衫，Stussy，這是新出來的十分流行的牌子。他們花很多錢買首飾。他們戴耳環。他們戴項鏈。他們同那些來自中國的學生截然不同。那些學生的父母成長在中國很傳統的、很小的地方，也許是農村，鄉村地區。他們的生活是很不同的。 問：這些不同的學生在學校相處得怎麽樣？ TSE：就好像在高中，在我那個時候，學校裏有不同的學生，不同的派系，不同團體混在一起，這裏也同樣。在同一地方長大的人在一起。或者是因爲語言，或極少時候是因爲個性。這裏有香港幫，講廣州話幫，福建幫。一些人很聰明，喜歡學習，不管是從哪里來的，他們總是在一起。有些人喜歡講英語，找其他有類似的興趣的做朋友。因此，和高中沒有什麽兩樣。但是沒有喜好運動的。我沒有看到中國的運動員。這是這裏缺少的一個團體。和其他成長中的青少年一樣，他們找有共同興趣或者背景的人做朋友，所以沒有太大的不同。 問：在你長大的時候，你說---，你是不是覺得自己是高中裏唯一的中國人很奇怪？ TSE：我沒有說我是唯一的中國人。我是說我是---，那裏差不多有一、兩個中國移民家庭的孩子。對於其他亞裔，我不認爲他們是中國人。他們更像美國人，因爲他們不講中文。即使他們講中文，基本上，他們的舉止也不一樣。他們所有的朋友都是美國人，在學校很活躍的學生，那種青少年的生活。他們舉止不同。他們屬於不同的團體，不同的社會團體。 問：那你沒有---，你和其他人沒有太多來往嗎--- TSE：我有。有一個女孩子是我的朋友，但只是一般的朋友。因爲我們在同一個班，有同樣的---，我想不應該算是作業，我們一起做作業， 我們談一些班裏的事情。但下了課之後，我們很少在一起吃午餐。 問：你父母對你談戀愛等持什麽態度？ TSE：他們的態度是---，我們不得不秘密約會，偷偷地喜歡別人，秘密地和朋友出去。一切都是秘密的，因爲我們的父母從不談這個問題。你可以大學畢業後結婚等。從某種意義上來講，他們很開放，讓我們自己選擇。另一方面，我想他們不想讓我們談戀愛，所以他們從不談論這個問題。我想現在的孩子更加複雜，因爲他們十六、七歲就開始拍拖。即使他們沒有做過，他們也知道。他們看到自己的朋友懷孕，流産，或離婚。不同的社會問題迫使他們接受這些想法。他們比我考慮的更多。 問：那你的父母從未談論過這些事情嗎？ TSE：他們從來不談論這些，即使我們試圖談這個話題。我姐姐很小的時候有一個男朋友，我想是高中第一年，不是她離家出走去的那個，不是她離開家投奔的那個。但是我父母說，你不能和不是中國人的男孩子拍拖，更何況結婚。但是，你不能不和一個不是中國人的男孩子拍拖是因爲你可能---，好像是說你可能和他結婚。所以，我和我另外的姐姐只好私下拍拖。 問：你是否和中國人拍拖？ TSE：開始時候是的。但後來在大學，我和其他種族人拍拖。我是說，我父母從來不知道。他們會反對的。 問：他們現在的態度如何？ TSE：他們現在變得更加靈活。他們只是想---，我姐姐的確嫁給了一個越南華僑，他們很高興。但我想他們對婚姻的看法是---，他們也許更加喜歡---，我還是單身，但如果---，他們還是想讓我嫁給一個美籍華人，而不是其他什麽人。但他們知道我在和一個白人談戀愛。他們沒有說什麽。他們---，他們沒有說什麽。他們沒有說，“好極了！”但他們也沒有說，“啊，不行，你不能這樣做。”他們沒有那樣講，他們沒有反對。我想有可能是因爲他們自己已習慣聽到各種各樣的事情，或者他們變得對一些價值觀無所謂---。很多事情對於他們來講並不再是黑與白。我想他們起初是很袒護我，因爲一切對於他們都是很新鮮的。他們確實是想保護我們。他們想自己摸索。 [第一盤第一面結束；第一盤第二面開始] 問：我想再談一下拍拖的問題。你的另外一個姐姐和你弟弟怎麽樣？他們結婚了嗎？ TSE：沒有，他們還是單身。但基本上，他們都和中國人在一起，我想他們基本上和中國人拍拖。 問：他們是否覺得那樣更好，還是--- TSE：我不過問他們這方面的事情。對於我自己，我想這取決於對方，以及你交往的圈子。因此，如果他們大多數的朋友是中國人，他們可能---這是他們社交的圈子。 問：那你呢？你覺得和美籍華人拍拖心裏會感覺舒服一些嗎？ TSE：這不是舒服不舒服的問題。我想這是是否方便的問題，比如你想去某個地方---。因爲我講廣州話，我約會的一些中國人講得不好，我經常取笑他們。有時和他們交流很有意思，儘管他們講不流利。你講一些東西，就會鬧些笑話出來。你想講些不想讓別人聽到的話就很方便。 好像是秘密的語言，或共同的東西。就是很有意思。 問：你覺得和講廣州話的人交流要比講英文容易嗎？ TSE：如果他們的背景，他們成長的環境和我相似，我想立刻就會有感覺，但也並非如此。有其他重要的事情，你的價值觀和相互是否吸引。 問：你覺得你同華人社區，唐人街，或者你住的地方，是否很密切？ TSE：我現在住的地方是另外一個日益擴大的唐人街，因此覺得像是在唐人街。因爲到處都有中國餐館，中國人的洗衣店，中國超級商場，中國雜貨店，什麽都有。實際上，就是這近五年才有的。我一輩子都住在那裏，但實際上那個社區在不斷擴大。有更多的華人搬過來，他們跟我講同樣的語言。我有點不願講這些，但我還是說吧。我想搬到其他中國人少的地方住，因爲我想找一個安靜一些的地方。倒不是說我想遠離華人，但我想我搬到這個地方的原因之一就是因爲這裏很安靜。有時你如果想要---，下了班之後，你就是想要遠離你的工作，而我一直都在唐人街上班，離這裏很近，Lower East Side。我在紐約大學讀書，離唐人街也很近。大多時候，我的社會活動都是在這個地區，所以很方便，在這裏住很舒服。同時，當你長大的時候，你意識到你可以去其他地方玩兒，認識其他人，面對其他的挑戰，其他你想認識的人，在其他社區做的事情。我想在這個社區工作，幫助這個社區發展。但同時，我有我的美國夢，要真正意識到美國並不僅是唐人街，並不只是這塊地方。你想---，我想要我的學生也懂得這一點，這樣他們總能記住。我經常和我的朋友開玩笑，跟他們講，我們來唐人街吃飯，因爲這裏的價錢便宜，買蔬菜，然後回家。但在某種程度上這是事實。 我們想和我們中國人的根有聯繫。但在另一方面，我們想融入美國主流社會，享受和發掘生活裏的其他事情。 問：你是如何有那種想法的？ TSE：我想大概是受朋友影響。如果你想去餐館，你不會去在你家周圍的餐館，這樣可以有些新的嘗試。就像我第一次去攀岩，總是在想，我下一步還要做些什麽？你是在向外伸展。一旦你伸展到了，你想做更多的事情，好像邁出了你的圈子，你的小盒子。我認爲這也是很重要的。如果你總是生活在你的圈子裏，你不會有發展，你必須要對比。在你探詢人生的時候，你要看到你整個世界中其他的東西。 問：你家附近在很多華人搬來之前是什麽樣的？大概在5年或10年以前？ TSE：有一些華人住在那裏，但在我的那個街區有兩個華人家庭。我想那個地區大多是猶太人，俄國人。有一些是義大利人。 問：現在的那些居民是剛剛來到美國的，還是來這裏已經有一段時間了？ TSE：我想都有吧。有些是在這裏開餐館的生意人，有些是新移民。我的一些學生也住在鄰近，所以我知道也有新來的移民。因此，兩者都有。能有這種混合、而非單一的社會群體倒是件好事情。 問：你覺得你們那一代老移民和這些新移民之間的交流怎麽樣？ TSE：我想我們---，我只能談我自己的觀點，這並不代表其他人。我想還是有緊密的聯繫的，因爲我仍然講他們的語言。我知道所發生的事情， 你聽到一些問題或---，他們面臨的挑戰，也會使你聯想起一些類似的經歷。因此，你和他們並不是那麽格格不入。但我想，對於我們大多數人來講，當我們年紀大的時候，比如我姐姐和我，我們對新移民更有同情心。儘管我們開玩笑，我們有相同的處境，我們穿舊衣服。或有的時候我們父母沒有給我們買禮物，我們沒有禮物，我們要給父母買聖誕禮物，這類事情。現在的學生和新移民[聽不清楚]。但同時，因爲我們的水平不同，我們的生活方式不同，我們在賺錢，我們是所謂的“已經先到的”。你確實感到對那些面臨挑戰的人的同情。我是說我肯定那些人在他們十幾歲成長的時候也有各種不同的挑戰。也許他們腦子裏考慮很多事情，只不過沒有講出來，但都有很多相似之處。我想沒有太多的區別。當然區別一定會有，但我想對於那些從一個地方搬到另一個地方的人來講，區別不是很大。 問：你談到沒有新衣服和聖誕禮物。你是否還記得你長大的時候其他的事情---，關於移民到這裏的？ TSE：我想是吃的，食物。我小時候並不經常吃麥當勞，但我記得去吃麥當勞算是很不錯的了，我想這是很多孩子都喜歡的一件事情。也許他們腦子裏就是有這種想法，喔，去麥當勞一定是因爲你過生日。因此---，在你十幾歲的時候，你喜歡吃漢堡包和炸薯條，而不是米飯，[笑] 蔬菜和魚。但我父母經常在家裏做中餐。我們從來沒有吃過其他食物。他們還有給我們做很奇怪的食物，我們甚至今天還喜歡吃。如果我去一家餐館點菜，我會挑一些特定的菜，比如苦瓜。別人會問，“你爲什麽吃那個？真噁心！太苦了！”或一些美國人不吃的東西。所以在某種意義上很奇怪。但這完全是因爲我們成長的環境。我有一些朋友，他們的孩子在美國出生。他們的食譜完全不同。他們能每天都吃漢堡包，可以不吃米飯。我想我的飲食包括許多---，至少百分之五十是米飯。對於我母親那一代人，他們一天不吃米飯都不行。他們覺得， 如果他們今天沒有吃米飯，明天就會死的。[笑] 因此，他們的想法，他們的飲食習慣是非常不一樣的。 問：你是否記得你小的時候，如果不去麥當勞，還有什麽食物算是比較隆重的？你小時候有什麽比較特殊的場合嗎？ TSE：去中餐館吃中餐[笑]是一個特殊的場合。真的。我們不經常出去。我們沒有錢，我們必須存錢付房租等。我們沒有錢買很多東西。 問：什麽是你的---，你們是住公寓樓還是房子，或者--- TSE：我們在一間公寓樓住了至少15年。在高中的時候，我們搬家了，我父母搬到房子裏住了。我們用了家裏所有的積蓄。我所講的家裏所有的積蓄包括孩子們的積蓄，比如我們打暑期工掙的錢，還有過年親戚朋友給的錢。所有的錢都花在買房子上的。當然，這是每個中國人的夢想，有自己的土地和自己的房子。六萬八千美元在今天算不了什麽，但在80年代，對於我父母來講是很大一筆錢了。因此，我們那時申請了抵押貸款，我們夏天打工掙來的錢也用來付房款。 問：那個房子怎麽樣？ TSE：很佛教化。我父母現在還在那裏住。下面是一家商店，他們很有經濟頭腦，把一樓租了出去。他們要還抵押，所以在二樓住。最近，他們重新裝修了整個地方。自從我們搬進來之後，他們第一次把牆皮剝了下來。他們之所以能夠這樣做是因爲孩子們都長大了，他們能夠退休了，現在沒有什麽地方需要用錢了。如果他們想的話，我們每天都能出去吃。但基本上他們在那裏住得很舒服。他們現在生活很好，有地方住，用不著還抵押。他們有社會安全保障，需要一些額外的也可以靠孩子。 問：那房子---，你們是否都有自己的臥室，房子有多大？或者--- TSE：我想我們住的第一所公寓房間比我們的房子都大。我記得我們房間裏有兩個臥室，但都很大。在70年代，我記得是六十八美元一個月。[笑] 我們的房租最高，六十八美元。我記得我們鄰居的房租是20多塊錢。[笑聲] 非常大的房間，那個公寓實際上已經被拆了。他們在那裏建了一所學校，我記得就是因爲這個我們才搬走的。我們實際上並不想搬，但不搬不行。我們在那裏住得很寬敞。的確是很大的地方。大起居室，兩間大臥室，一個洗手間，大廚房。當我們搬進房子的時候，實際上還沒有我們公寓房間大。但那是我們自己的，能有自己的房子住，用不著擔心被趕走是很重要的。沒有人干涉你在裏面做什麽。 問：那你怎麽---，你有沒有和你的姐姐一起住，或者房子裏--- TSE：你是問格局嗎？那裏實際上有兩間臥室，但因爲我父母住一間臥室，我和我姐姐住另外一間，我弟弟在上大學之前一直在起居室睡。所以，他上大學是好事，否則我都不知道他要住在哪里。我教書以後就自己搬走了，因爲房子太小了。非常小。是這樣子的。 問：那你姐姐也在那裏住嗎？ TSE：是的，整個高中階段我們都在那裏打架。你能想象一個房間裏住三個女孩嗎？上下鋪。我睡上鋪，你睡下鋪。睡一段時間再換床。這並非容易。但如果你就是這個條件，你不會有其他的想法。好像現在，我不會和我姐姐再睡一個房間。你不想和別人住在同一房間。還有，六個人同用一個洗手間。我現在有我自己的洗手間。如果有人進來，我會說，這裏不夠兩個人的地方。因此，還是那句話，如果你以前沒有過，你不覺得失去了什麽，你也不會珍稀它。 問：你是否還記得其他關於在那個房子裏長大的--- [ 討論光線] 問：你是否還記得其他在那裏長大的事情？ TSE：很多記憶。我姐姐是在那裏結的婚，我們鋪了第一張地毯，牆對牆地毯。就好像我們發展得更好後，我們家裏也會有改善的，家裏添了很多東西。我們添的第一個大件就是天花板風扇。的確是很大一件事情。我們這些孩子都有湊錢，買了天花板風扇。[笑] 那是很大的事情。就是這些成長時的回憶，我們能夠做的一些使父母開心、使我們的生活更方便的小事情。這是一些愉快的時刻，比如我們過耶誕節時，我們給自己和父母買很多禮物。[笑] 就是這些小的事情，是很好的回憶。 問：你有沒有其他一些記憶，比如你成長過程中的里程碑？ TSE：在我小時候？ 問：在成長的時候，在這個房子裏住，你還記得的事情，好像買天花板風扇這些美好的回憶？ TSE：我得想一會兒。家裏發生了很多事情，好的和壞的。我想我們住房子和住---，可能我們住公寓的時間要比住房子久。所以，我對公寓的記憶要更多一些，我想至少一些特殊的記憶，因爲我是和姐姐一起玩兒的。我們做遊戲，或在地板上扮東西，就是在那個公寓長大的。當我們搬到房子裏住的時候，我們有到外面去。我們上了大學，因此我們做了---，或先是高中。我們在房子外做的事情要比在房子做的事情多。但在小時候，我們大多時候不出去，呆在房間裏。因此是很不一樣的。 問：你的祖父母---，他們還在香港嗎？他們還在世嗎？ TSE：他們從來沒有到過這個國家。他們仍然在香港，我祖母大約在五年前去世了，她--- 問：你有沒有見過她，還是--- TSE：看過相片，通過電話。聽過關於她的一些事情。她是我們家裏最高的。關於她的一些瑣碎的事情，但我從未見過她。 問：她沒有來過。 TSE：是的，她不想來。路途太長，她有家庭---，我是說，她其他的女兒和家人還在那裏，他們照料她。 問：是你母親的母親還是你父親的母親？ TSE：我母親的母親。我父親那邊很分散。他有同父異母的兄弟姐妹。他的童年過得不好。他們一家人不在一起。彼此不太友好。所以，他從不談這些。他在美國的同父異母的兄弟多過在荷蘭的兄弟。我們和比較遠的親戚的聯繫多過和近的親戚的聯繫。 問：“遠”指的是香港還是--- TSE：是荷蘭。 問：你認識他們嗎？ TSE：認識，實際上，他們到美國來了兩次。所以，實際上，我們跟他們比跟住在紐約的親戚還要熟。他們在那邊過得不錯。兩個兒子在荷蘭學醫，是優秀的。尤其對我父母來講，現在我們家裏有兩個醫生，這是很不容易的。可惜他們在荷蘭， 不能夠幫到我們。但的確很高興知道我們都是專業人士，有很大的目標，跟我父母，以及他們的父母比起來--- 問：讓我想一下。我們能不能談一下愛國主義，以及你覺得你有多愛美國，尤其是在9/11之後，以及有沒有什麽變化？ TSE：即使在9/11之前，我在18歲申請公民身份的時候，我必須通過所有的測試，面談，以及最後的宣誓。整個的經歷確實觸動了我。後來，我去參加陪審團，我和我的學生分享那些經歷，它意味著什麽---，作爲一個美國人的職責是什麽？這些我都是很重視的。很多人，也許甚至美國人，認爲沒有這個必要，或覺得無所謂。但我是非常認真的，當我被要求做陪審員的時候，我希望自己會被選中，能夠審這個案子，瞭解一下過程。我已被選中了一次，最後兩次沒有抽到。這種經歷的確會使你懂得，你有權決定另外一個人的命運意味著什麽。如此之類的小事情。如果你沒有去，只是學過或聽到過，你會想當然，而不會確切知道這其中的涵義，直到你親自做了，甚至對於我的學生，當他們處在那個位置的時候。你是陪審員，你決定這個人的命運。喔，是政府的授權。你認爲你會在世界上其他地方有這樣的機會嗎？因此，我的確是這麽想的，而且我盡力向我的學生灌輸，就是這種感覺---，不僅僅是責任，而是做的感覺，成爲這種文化的一部分。要成爲有責任感的公民需要做些什麽事情？ 問：這同你父母住在這裏的觀點不同吧？ TSE：我想是的。我是說，他們，我是說，我父母是真正的移民，要努力奮鬥養家活口。也許他們的目標，他們的世界跟我們不太一樣。我在成長，想要---，我是說，他們要實現美國夢，但我的美國夢是不同的。 問：那你認爲你愛國嗎？或者你對這個國家的感覺怎麽樣，尤其在9/11之後？ TSE：你是問我的政治觀點？ 問：不是，作爲在這裏生活的公民，你的感覺如何，尤其是看到所發生的事情之後。 TSE：我想很多美國人都提到過，但我也強烈地感到，我們總是覺得自由是想當然的。我覺得我們確實需要重新考慮，認識到很多人爲了我們能在這裏自由地生活而付出了自己的生命，從而我們才能擁有自由，能夠發表自己的言論，在晚上能夠安全地，相對安全地，走在街上。我是說，作爲美國人，我們以爲這些都是理所當然的。我覺得對於那些來到這裏的移民，這裏有很多他們覺得很不可思議的事情---。啊，我們有這個，我們有那個。比如電視機，這裏有這麽多電視機，我們能夠免費去百老彙看演出。所有這些吸引，這些機會在其他地方都是沒有的。我想他們確實非常感激，他們確實能夠看到生活在這個偉大的國家是來之不易的。關於移民經歷，我要講的另外一件事情是，如果你問我的學生，在五年、十年之後，他們會在哪里。一些學生會說，這取決於他們在這裏呆了多長時間，甚至一半以上的學生會說，我會留在這裏。一些學生說他們要回自己的國家，比如一旦他們有機會，在這裏讀完書，拿到文憑之後，他們要回去做些其他的事情。這確實很有趣。 問：是很有趣。你認爲你會繼續在紐約住嗎？ TSE：[笑] 是的，我喜歡紐約。我在布魯克林區長大，但喜歡紐約，我是紐約人。如果我有錢，我要住在紐約市。 問：這不太容易。我想已經差不多了，你還有別的什麽要補充的嗎？ TSE：我已經講了很多。我甚至都不記得講了些什麽。 問：我想可以了。謝謝。感謝你。 採訪完畢 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Meiling Tse 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Henry Chung Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Florence Ng Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-02-26 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation CCBA Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is February 26th, 2004. This is the Chinatown Oral History Project of Museum of Chinese in the Americas. Today, we invited Mr. Henry Chung, former president of Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association (CCBA). The interviewer is me, I-ching Ng. Mr. Chung, when were you born? Chung: I was born on [September 29th] 1919. Q: Where are you from? Chung: I’m from Mei county in Guangdong province, China. Q: Why did you come to the United States? Chung: Actually I went to India in 1937. My brother-in-law had business over there. I went there to help him out. When World War II ended, I went to New York, the United States from India. Q: Why did you decide to go to India at that time? Chung: At that time, I just finished my high school. My father asked me to go to India and helped my brother-in-law in India. So, I went there, to India. Besides, at the time, the Japanese invaded China and waged a war in China. Q: What did you do in India? Chung: I went to India and worked at my brother-in-law’s leather factory. Later on I worked for an agency and came to the United States in 1949. Q: How was life in India? Chung: Life in India, well… For the Chinese there, besides leather factories, they operated lumber yards, import and export companies, grocery stores, almost every kind of business…with daily wages ranged from about four to five dollars a day. At that time, during war time, many ships stationed in India and could not embark their journeys. Because of that, many sailors and Chinese people had to [temporarily stay] in India. Q: Among the Chinese in India, were they mainly comprised of people from Canton or Hakka? Chung: They were mainly Cantonese. Q: Ok. Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, when you were in Mainland China…How was your family? Could you please talk about your family? How many family members were there in your family? Chung: My family? My parents passed away, and so were my eldest brother and my other brothers and sisters. But, I have a son and grandchildren in mainland China. Q: Ok. What did you expect when you first come to the United States? Chung: When I first came… This was how I came to the United States. I originally intended to return to my hometown. However, when I was staying in United States, the communist was fighting with Kuomintang in mainland China, and September 18th incident [signify the beginning of Japanese invasion] broken out. Hence, I was stuck in the United States and could not return to China. [I wanted to return to China but the Communist had already crossed the river and occupied the mainland.] Q: That is to say, during your boat ride…? Chung: Yes, initially I decide to go to Hong Kong from the United States. But since the Communists already went south from the river and occupied the mainland, I stayed here and didn’t return. Q: Was it easy to enter the United States? Chung: It was not so easy. I bought ship tickets back in India... It was not so easy. [I only intended to wait here until the war was over, so I stayed in New York.] Q: When did you come to the United States? Chung: In 1949. Q: Did you live in Chinatown then? Chung: When I first came, I worked in a restaurant. My friend referred me to work as a waiter in the restaurant. After that, I came to work in Chinatown and worked as a secretary, later the president of Hakka Association. Q: That is to say, you did not work in Chinatown from the very beginning? Where were you…? Chung: Initially, I learned to be a waiter in a Chinese restaurant [on Long Island] and later worked [formally] as a waiter. Q: Where was the restaurant? Chung: The restaurant [that I worked later on] was in New Jersey. Q: Were there a lot of Chinese people in New Jersey? Chung: Oh, only very few. However, we only worked there. Every week we returned to New York. Q: How did you go back, with……? Chung: We had a car. The restaurant picked us up by the car. When we had our day-off, we came back to New York by car. Q: There were no long haul buses [in Chinatown] as we have now, right? Chung: No, it wasn’t that convenient. Q: Okay, Mr. Chung, what was your first impression when you came to the United States? Chung: When I first came, I thought the United States was quite good. There’s plenty of freedom. So long as you did not break the law and not do any harm to others, you can do whatever you want. It was relatively free and that was good. Especially when mainland China had a civil war and we were not able to return. I had no choice but to stay here. Q: Was it the first time you were involved in the restaurant business? Chung: At the beginning, I started as a waiter. Then I ran my own restaurant. Q: Oh, you ran a restaurant? Chung: Yeah, I worked in the Hakka Association as a secretary and later as its president. I also opened stores: florist, café, and later opened my restaurant. Q: Okay. When did you finally move to Chinatown and live there? Chung: I lived in Chinatown all the time. That is to say, apart from the time working as a waiter in New Jersey, I lived in Chinatown all the time. Q: How was Chinatown back then? Chung: The Chinatown in New York was sparsely populated and not as busy as in Hong Kong. It was already considered busy when there were eight to ten people walking on the streets. Now both sides of the street are full of pedestrians. [Now is much more crowded than before.] Q: How big was Chinatown? How many streets were there? Chung: The old Chinatown was comprised of Mott Street, Bayard Street and Mulberry Street. The Italians lived on Canal Street. Later on, Chinatown expanded from Mulberry to Canal Street, then to Houston Street. The development has been more rapid during the past ten to twelve years. Now, the Chinese store signs are everywhere. Chinese are everywhere. Q: Mr. Chung, what was the main group of immigrants in Chinatown? Chung: At that time, it was in 1962 when President Kennedy said China had an exodus of refugees. He increased the immigrant quota to 25,000. Hence, 25,000 people arrived. We had record of it, since the National Chinese Welfare Association organized the arrangements [according to President Kennedy’s Act]. An [annual] quota of 25,000 [immigrants] was assigned to the Asian countries, including China. The same quota remained until now. Q: Were Cantonese the main group of immigrants? Chung: At the beginning, they were mainly Cantonese. But now, there are people come from everywhere, especially folks from Fujian. Q: Did you anticipate that Chinatown would undergo such a rapid development? Chung: I did not expect it back then. The government and some property developers wanted to demolish the Division Street. But they did not do it in the end. Instead, the government encouraged renovation, and offered loans to residents to fix the apartments. That was what happened. Q: When was that? Chung: That was the year 1972.After that, the president was Janson (Johnson) and launched the anti-poverty project. Q: Was Division Street mainly occupied by the Chinese? Chung: Back then, Division Street was nicknamed “Hat Selling Street”. The Jewish sold women’s clothing and hats on both sides of the street. The Chinese did not know the real name [of the street] and just called it the “Hat Selling Street”. People knew it was the place to buy hats, so they kept calling it as the “Hat Selling Street”. Mrs. Chung: They sold clothing too. Q: Break here? Photographer: Go ahead. Q: Mr. Chung, How long did you work for the first restaurant? Chung: I worked there for over a year. Then I came back to work as a secretary [for Hakka Association]. Q: For Hakka Association? Chung: I worked as a secretary for Hakka Association for a little while. Then I worked for other restaurants. Q: Were there many Hakka people? Chung: At that time, the Hakka people... There were a few hundreds of us, Hakka people. Q: Ok, Mr. Chung. In 1950s, did immigrants mainly speak Cantonese? Chung: [They were] Mainly Cantonese speakers. In 1950s, since a lot of Chinese became U.S. soldiers and obtained permanent residence. So they went back [to China] and got married. Then more people came [to the United States]. So there came a lot of people from everywhere, not only the Cantonese, but also Chinese from Shanghai and many more from the other provinces. Q: For Chinatown residents who spoke different dialects, were there any communication problem, in Chinatown? Chung: It was like…this. In the old days, most people spoke their own local dialects, such as Toishanese and Cantonese. So for people who spoke northern dialects, they had to write things down when they went shopping, since the [store owner] had no time to listen to them. These people even spoke Cantonese with a heavy accent, sometimes they said, as a joke: “You, Cantonese people are discriminatory against us, Northerners. When it came to shopping, you would rather serve others who spoke Cantonese, even though we are here first.” For people who were doing business, time is precious. If you can speak [their languages], the store owners could hand you the things right away. But if you can’t, you had to write it down, and it took time for them to read, so, gradually, they only served those who spoke their dialects and not the Northerners. In fact, they just wanted to do business quicker, didn’t want to waste time. Q: The northern dialect means Mandarin? Chung: It depends, some people spoke Mandarin, others could speak Cantonese – that could also be called the dialect. Q: Oh, really? Chung: So northern dialects mean, the language you spoke to the northerners. Now, most of us speak Mandarin. Q: In those years, I remembered you mention that, Chinese movies dubbed in Mandarin were very popular? Chung: Mandarin became a popular dialect in 1960s, since many immigrants who came from mainland China and Taiwan spoke Mandarin. Gradually more people spoke Mandarin. Also, at that time, everybody loved to watch movies dubbed in Mandarin and fewer people watched Cantonese movies. Everybody loved to watch Mandarin movies – they could learn the dialect at the same time and entertain themselves. So the movies really helped to promote the dialect in Chinatown…in terms of learning the language. Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, remembered you mention the grand opening of the building on Division Street? When was that? Chung: The building on Division Street…the building of the association for Hakka people, the Tsung Tsin Association was opened in 1953. In 1951, we started the renovation and by October 10th, 1953, the Tsung Tsin Association was ready to be opened. Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, you mentioned operated various businesses. Actually which one did you prefer most? Or were there challenges in all the industries? Chung: At that time, the industries for Chinese were restaurants and laundromats. Next came the garment factories. There were not that many garment factories in the 50s. In the 60s, gradually there were more garment factories. So most of the women among the new immigrants could work in the garment factories, it helped many families to make a living. Since the Chinese immigrant needed a job, and his wife would help out by taking another job [as a garment worker]. Q: So you opened a restaurant and what els? Chung: I opened a restaurant, a florist and a café. Q: Did you open the café at the same time? Chung: Yes, I had a spacious store front, so I divided it into two parts, split it into a florist on one side and a café on the other side. Q: Where was the store? Chung: On Division Street, right underneath Tsung Tsin Association- where the Hakka Association used to be. I worked there as a secretary. Since at that time, not that many people would rent a store front and do business. There were not that many people like that. Q: If they did not rent store front, were they peddling on the street? Chung: No, they were no peddling on the streets. It was only within the last decade that the peddlers started selling products on the streets. Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know. Besides the Hakka Association, were you involved in any other community work? Chung: Besides the Hakka Association? Q: Did you involve in community work, such as….? Chung: Yes, I did. I worked for Lin Sing Association, the Lin Sing Association of Eastern coast of the United States. Q: What position did you hold? Chung: I was the president. Q: When was that? Chung: I was [the Lin Sing Association] president in 1968. I became the president of the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association (CCBA) in 1964. In 1968, I was the president of the Lin Sing Association. Then in 1972 and again in year 2000, I was elected as the president of Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association. Q: Mr. Chung. Could you please tell us, in different era, what were the different problems that Chinatown were facing. For example, in 1960s when you were the CCBA president, what were the needs you thought need to be addressed? Chung: Oh, in 1960s, at that time, the restaurant business of the Chinese was thriving. So did the garment factory and they could also work in the laundromats. So the hand-laundry was phrased out and its business diminished. As we just said, there were garment factories… and gradually there were more garment factories. Q: Did Chinatown face any problem that need to be addressed too, in 1960s? Chung: It was hard to say. CCBA had many responsibilities and it couldn’t accomplish everything. A that time, in the 60s… actually in the 50s, we had to fundraise to gather capital to build the building of CCBA… Q: That’s now [the existing building]…? Chung: We collected over $900,000 for this building at 62 Mott Street. We gathered almost one million dollars. So, the building was completed in 1962. Q: Oh, in the beginning…..? Chung: We moved in, between1962 to 1964 that we moved in there. Initially, we didn’t work at that office, we used the office of Lin Sing Association. But by the time I became the president, we moved in [the new building] to work. I bought all the furniture and other items. We moved in there to operate the CCBA till this date. Q: You were the first president who worked in the new CCBA building? Chung: Yes. That was also the first time I became the CCBA president. Q: When you first became the president, did you have any plan to improve Chinatown during your 2-year term? Chung: At that time, think about it…. If you want to accomplish something, you need financial support, especially for concrete measures. I helped whenever I could, within my capacity. Q: Okay. Chung: If you didn’t have financial support, you couldn’t say…you couldn’t push too far. Q: Did it take you a long time to fundraise for the building? Chung: It took us several years. Fund raising began in 1955, in 1955 we started the fundraising campaign. Q: Was the donation mainly from Chinese immigrants? Chung: All the Chinese immigrants and soldiers made contributions. We had donors from San Francisco, and from the mid-region such as Chicago, and from Los Angeles, Boston, etc. People from all the places sent in their donations. Therefore, we called the building Zhong Hua Da Lou [Building of the Chinese]. Q: Ok, shall we take a break here? Photographer: Okay, go ahead. Q: Mr. Chung, could you share some stories from your childhood in mainland China? Chung: I went to Singapore with my father when I was seven. We lived there for one year. Then we moved to Malaysia. My father ran a lumber business there with his partners. I went to school there until I was a teenager and returned to China. After I went back to China…I graduated from high school when I was 17. Then I went to India, at the time, Japan invaded China and the “Lu Gou Bridge incident” occurred, so we fled to India. Q: Mr. Chung, you spent your life in several places. Where would you consider as a “home”? Which place gives you the feeling as your homeland? Chung: Home, how to say? Oh, home. To tell the truth, Southeast Asia was hot and filthy, it had lots of…garbage. Unless you lived in the residential area of the white people, it would be much cleaner. But Singapore was pretty good, Singapore was very clean. But within the Republic of Malaysia, since we lived in the mountains with my uncle there to collect rubber…As a kid, I wandered around with other children. Apart from going to school, we had nothing to do. So I went back to China when I was a teenager, finished secondary school, then went to India, where my brother-in-law lived. Q: How was the Mei county in Guangzhou like at that time? What kind of town was it? Chung: Mei country in Guangdong. Mei county itself was a town. In the old days, our Mei county was not so prosperous. But now, it developed very well. The areas where the fields used to be, are now covered with buildings, they used to be fields. At the same, many bridges were built. In around 1937, the Meijiang Bridge was built, once the Meijing Bridge was built, they started to build other bridges. Q: Was Mei county an industrial town or an agricultural town? Chung: An agricultural, agricultural, agricultural town. But now we don’t have that much agricultural land left, we had lots of mountains, not enough flat lands. Q: Were there many people Mei county move out, migrated to other places? Mr. Chung: Yes, many, many of them [left]. Many of our Hakka people left for the army or become merchants, so they all left to do business. The women stayed home and worked in the fields. Q: Ok, take a break here? Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, in the 60s, was illegal immigrants a serious problem in 1960s? Chung: It was like this, in 1960s, illegal entry was common, but we shouldn’t say it was serious. Those who came to the United States were fleeing from political upheavals in China. They couldn’t live, so they had to flee and boarded on the ships to the United States or other places. Once they landed in the United States, they stayed here to live. Therefore, at that time, the Immigration and Naturalization Services would come to arrest a whole lot of people. I was the president of CCBA at the time, so I worked together with others from the National Chinese Welfare Association and their committee members, and attorneys to… [Phone ringing] Q: Let’s take a break. Chung: Where were we before? Q: The problem of illegal immigration in 1960s... Chung: Yes, illegal immigration. So that way, many of us Chinese opened restaurants and we needed many of those immigrants who landed ashore to work in the kitchens. So, when [immigration enforcement officers] arresting these workers, we would have nobody to work in the kitchens, nobody. If you hire somebody else [i.e. Americans], there may a language barrier, it won’t work. So we went down to the headquarter of the Immigration and Naturalization Services in Washington D.C., and to the Congress and pleaded for them. We met with congressmen and told them, “could we allow them to stay in the country temporarily, since they [fled] because of political upheavals in China and there’s no way they could live there. That’s why they fled to here.” I said…you Americans put emphasis on humanitarianism, democracy and freedom, and I said: “I hope they can stay here.” A congressman said, jokingly, “Mr Chung, you should ask your men to marry our girls, the American girls, that will solve all the problems. Once they are married, they can become citizens.” That was a joke. Q: Was it easy to convince those officials in the beginning? Chung: We, in the old days, tried to convince them and they sympathized with these people. Look, even him, president Kennedy would allow so many people into the country [through amnesty], they really sympathized with these immigrants. So he said, “How about this, we give you a five-year period. He can stay in the country, by the time he stayed here for the fourth year, he would have earn enough money by then. He could then go to Hong Kong or other places to make a living.” So this way, he said, “They could come in again and stay for four years, when it reaches the fourth year, we will send them away again.” It was like that. Q: Did they call the document a “work authorization” card, like the one they issue now? Chung: There was no work authorization [card]. Actually, the Immigrant and Naturalization Services would issue a document and state the [length] of his stay and whether it was already expired. The paper would also state whether he was allowed to stay in the country with a parole. Q: Actually, did you know how many people benefit from this new policy, did you make a head count? Chung: I did not document that, how do you calculate the number? I would say, in the past the officers would deport groups of four hundred to five hundred people. We would negotiate with the congressmen according to the number of immigrants who were arrested. Q: So, the first time you lobbied for four to five hundred people. How many after that? Chung: I don’t know how many after that. We would met with them and ask them not to deport anymore people. So they would stop and would not deport any people temporarily. Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, when the first time you… became the president of CCBA in 1960, apart from this policy that benefited many Chinese people here, could you please talk about other tasks you accomplished during your term at CCBA? For example, you mentioned that there was a school? Chung: Other accomplishments in 1960s. Do you mean our elementary and high school? Q: Yes…… Chung: [We offer] Chinese classes, to teach Chinese. Even the captain of the Fifth precinct came over, the policemen came here to learn Chinese. Q: Oh really? Where do the classes take place? Chung: The school is in the upper floors of our CCBA building. Q: How many students are there? At that time, how many students…. Chung: Students? There were about 2000 of them. Q: That many? Chung: Now we have more than 3000 students. Q: The elementary and high school combine together? Chung: Yeah. Q: Do you have anything to add on the things you have done in 1960s? Chung: What about 1960s? Q: Do you want to add anything, perhaps other accomplishment of CCBA? Chung: What, what do you mean by that? Q: Let’s talk about 1970s, when you served the second term as the president of CCBA. Was the building of Confucius Plaza your biggest project? Chung: In 1970s, the Confucius Plaza project. It started all because of Mr. Luo Jinshui [aka Luo Deming]. He read from the newspaper that the city government has a lot…for the Chinese to build residential buildings. Therefore, once he saw that, he applied for it. In order to apply, he had to set up Hua Yuan Company. But when he went and applied for it [they required] a credit report and had to them how long the company has to be established. He said the company was new. Then they [the officials] said: “If your company is new, how can you convince us that it’s reliable?” So in that case, they said: “Why don’t you go back and see if there’s a huge association or organization can represent you in this matter?” Therefore, Mr. Luo came to meet me and I called for a committee meeting at CCBA. Several of us met with then New York city mayor Lindsay and he approved the project. He said, “If it’s CCBA, of course it will work.” And Lindsay talked to other commissioners as well. I talked to the mayor, and he agreed to us and let CCBA work on the project. He was confident that we could do it. Therefore, we had a meeting at CCBA, after the meeting and passed on the project to the Chinese Chamber of Commerce of New York. There are 60 organizations under the umbrella of CCBA and the Chinese Chamber of Commerce of New York is one of them, and also the biggest one, that’s why we gave it to them. Q: Actually, was it right that Confucius Plaza was specially built for elderly and not for the other age groups? Chung: It was not only for the elderly, but for the middle income group, middle income. Those with middle income, not necessarily for the elderly people. Initially, we wanted to build residential units for the elderly, but there was no appropriate location. We planned to acquire the sport at 110 Henry Street. We bought it but sold it later on because it was too small and too old. The plan did not realize. Q: When was the Confucius Plaza built? Chung: Confucius Plaza was built in 1927, 27 [actually 1973], from 1973 to 1974 and finished in 1975. We moved in and lived here in December of 1975. Q: Was it easy to gather funds to build this……? Chung: The capital was loans from the federal, state and city government. We have to pay back the loan in 50 years. Q: Oh, a 50-year term loan? Chung: Also some of the loan was from the Chinese operated banks, such as the former Jing Rong Ying Hang, United Oriental Bank. The funds were mainly from bank loans. Q: How much is the rent for an apartment? Chung: Um…[monthly rent of an apartment is about 200 dollars] Q: How much was the mortgage? Chung: Um… [The building management paid for the mortgage. The tenants paid the rent.] Q: If I pay for the mortgage for an apartment, how much would that be? Chung: How much? A middle income tenant used to pay monthly rent of $283. Q: Is your rent expensive now? Chung: Oh, here? For an apartment, for an apartment, we pay at least $200 for this apartment. Q: Per month? Chung: Per month. The government subsidizes part of it. Q: Half of it is subsidized. How many apartments are there in Confucius Plaza? Chung: Over 700 units. The sum we just mentioned is for the mortgage. Oh actually the money was a loan from the federal government, not from the bank. Actually the Chinatown Day Care Center at that time was funded by loans from Jing Rong Ying Hang and Chinese American Bank. Q: Was housing a serious problem in Chinatown back then? Chung: Housing, housing was a problem but was not as serious as it is now. Now, not have many apartments are available. In the past, even though there was a shortage but one could still find an apartment if you searched for it. Now, that’s impossible. Q: Take a break here? Q: Mr. Chung. Now, let’s talk about the 9/11 incident. You actually witnessed 9/11, didn’t you? Chung: Yes, at that time when 9/11 happened, at around 8:40a.m., the first building was hit by the plane hijacked by the terrorists. I saw it in Confucius Plaza, I saw the thick smoke coming out from the buildings. But I did not think it was done by the terrorist and thought it was accidentally hit by a plane. Soon after, the second plane hit the building… [In Hakka dialect- Mr. Chung asked Mrs. Chung not to interrupt.] Q: Were you in CCBA or at home when this happened? Chung: I was downstairs [at Confucius Plaza]. I was about to go somewhere and saw the scene as soon as I came out of the building? Q: You mean at the Confucius Plaza? Chung: Yes, I saw it. Then I tried to use my cell phone to call, but it didn’t work. Some of my friends with whom I was supposed to go to a place together came, he also said his cell phone did not work either. We did not know what goes wrong. Then, the people walked slowly to our direction, from World Trade Center to Chinatown. More and more people walked [to Chinatown], like a wave of people. They walked uptown to the 10-something streets. Q: What action came to your mind when 9/11 happened, what did you want to do? Chung: When 9/11 happened, I went back to the office and pondered on that. I wasn’t quite sure what happened. At that time, the planes…and the heavy smoke, the smoke slowly blew towards Chinatown. I couldn’t figure out how serious was the loss, not clear about it. So the next day, it turned out that the incident was very serious, because many policemen, national guards were everywhere, at the intersections of streets and set up road blockades. They blocked the streets and would not allow people to cross them, unless you show them your I.D. to show that you live there. You could show them your I.D. and they would let you in. If you didn’t have any I.D., you couldn’t go through. So many residents complained: “We don’t have any status [i.e. they are illegal immigrants] and you won’t let us in.” So I phoned the captain at the fifth precinct and asked him to co-operate with me. He said: “How about this, as long as they tell them [the policemen] where they live, for those who don’t have any I.D., I can offer some documents.” So, it made the situation a lot more convenient. For those who were [in Chinatown] to deliver goods, if they had a signed paper- the approval from the fifth precinct saying they were doing business in the area, his truck could go pass the streets. Therefore, it made it easier. The situation was so chaotic and very tensed. The streets were empty, like a dead city. No pedestrians, not a soul on the streets. So some people from other countries would call me and inquire: “What’s happening over there?” Sometimes I would tell them, since luckily the telephones at CCBA were working, they all worked. So… Q: Only the phones at CCBA worked and others were out of order? Chung: I called for an emergency committee meeting at CCBA. We agreed that CBA donate $50,000 and asked other community agencies, store owners, the Chinese public to donate money for disaster relief. That was to say, those affected by 9/11 would get help. So, in total, we collected more than $300,000. Through public appeal at the radio stations, we raised $2 million. Exactly how much [in total] I could not remember. Q: That was a lot. Chung: The radio stationed also donated a lot of money. We presented the donation to the state governor. We gave $250,000 to September 11th fund. We also gave donations to the police, emergency medical staff and other medical services. We also gave it to the Red Cross. We gave away more than $300,000 in total. Q: Did all the relief work operate inside the CCBA building? Chung: Yes, that was for collecting donations. Elaine Chao, the Secretary of U.S. Department of Labor from the federal government, also sent some of her staff to us. The State government, city government also sent workers to us. Legal advisors also came. Verizon the phone company, the Red Cross, and an agency called FEMA also came to us. So we gave them office space to work in the building of CCBA. Everyday thousands of people came in and out of the CCBA building. Q: In order to rebuild Chinatown, did the government offer any funds to help Chinatown? Chung: To rebuild Chinatown, we had two funding. To revitalize Chinatown, as we Chinese keep saying, the business plummeted and was hit hard. So we advertised in Daily News, every Friday we placed an advertisement, it costs $40,000, only for an advert. Besides, we made a sign[age], a sign[age]…that didn’t cost any money. It was given by an architect, he gave it to us. To revitalize Chinatown, we staged lion dances, lion dance every week, and hired people to dance, all that cost money. Q: That was mainly for promoting tourism in Chinatown? Chung: Yes, to promote tourism in Chinatown. Elaine Chao, the secretary of U.S. Labor Depart came here twice. The last time she visited, she gave $1 million funding for job training services to agencies such as the Chinatown Manpower Project, Asian American For Equality, Chinese-American Planning Council and others. The $1 million was for that purpose. Q: From secretary Elaine Chao? Chung: Yes, secretary Elaine Chao. Q: Mr. Chung. How did 9/11 affect Chinatown? Can you tell us more about that? Chung: Oh. Chinatown was dead and had no business at all for a few days. The impact was huge, the loss was great… at that time, it was of utmost importance that…anyway, we all said. A few stores closed down because of 9/11. Q: 9/11 happened more than two years ago. How do you find the progress of rebuilding Chinatown? Chung: To rebuild Chinatown… the new CCBA president, Mr. Ng, has continued the works. We initiated a good beginning and that was very good, we are all working together to revitalize Chinatown. To revitalize Chinatown, we have to take one step at a time, gradually, Chinatown will regain its glory. On the other hand, we have to work on tourism, to promote Chinatown and attract more tourists to visit here. And for garment factory industry, it will be best if the government can put in more effort to support it, to revitalize the garment factory industry. Now, the garment factory has been sluggish, I know many workers are out of work now and need to get social welfare from the government. Q: Do you think there’s any other area in Chinatown that needs to be addressed immediately? In general, is there anything that needs to be improved? Chung: In order to improve that, it will be best if the housing unit would be allowed to be built higher. Now the tallest building can only be a seven- story one. It is better to build a more than twenty- story building and the streets could be widened. We used to have a plan, a proposal to revitalize Chinatown. We found somebody to draft the proposal, there was a proposal. Also, to expand tourism and also to help the garment factory industry. Also, we need to build more housing…and to repave the roads, to widen the roads. That has been our goals, these are our goals. Q: Mr. Chung, after 9/11 happened, has it changed your perspective on the United States? Chung: Oh, this 9/11..for us, Chinese people, we have been very united this time. So, it had a huge influence on us, we Chinese, were much more united. The loss to the United States was so huge, but she [the country] also tried to find ways to help us…such as the losses… and now, there is LMD[C] Q: LMDC [Lower Manhattan Development Council]? Chung: LMDC, it offered financial aids…for example, the alley… Q: So, you…? [Tape 009- side1B] Chung: Yes, yes, yes. The United States is the best in the world. Where else can you find a better place than here? Especially for the elderly people. Elderly people enjoy a lot of welfare here. Q: That means, you are very happy with your life here? Chung: Yes. Q: Take a break here? Q: Mr. Chung, many associations and organizations in Chinatown are divided into the leftists and the rightists and would not communicate with each other. Since you have been in Chinatown for so long, can you come up with ways to solve this political divide? Chung: Um…in Chinatown, those people from mainland China came here to make a living, right? Actually we could all live in peace and work together. But at that time, the leadership of mainland China held different ideas against overseas Chinese, and they persecuted many Chinese. That really changed the climate. So these people, deep down in the heart, felt the Communism was scary, like a terror. But, with different generations here… they gradually changed their attitude and realized that they shouldn’t feel shameful of those things [or incidents] happened in the past. So that was the change. Therefore, in 80s to 90s, the tension was relaxed. They would not boycott each other, and could tolerate each other sometimes. At least they would just refuse to talk to each other, and wouldn’t boycott each other like they did before. It didn’t happen much. Therefore, I, when I became the president for the third time [at CCBA], I felt that we are all Chinese, the same people, above all, we are all brothers when we are abroad, so we should make peace. Very often, for instance, at the time of Grand Street closure, we went up to the MTA and talked to them, and we had meetings, and even brought people over there to stage protests- when that happened, no matter they were leftists or rightists, everybody joined in unison and negotiated the issue. When CCBA held the meetings, they all came. So, gradually, the atmosphere became less tensed and the hostility died down. So, right now, they would contact each other, and like that, and changing the views they used to hold at each other Q: Mr. Chung, now that Grand Street subway station has just reopened, do you expect more improvements on Chinatown traffic and other areas from the government? Such as [the closure of] Park Row? Chung: In fact, we should be… when I was [the president of CCBA], I said that the government, the police car park should stay open and allow the public to use it. Once the car park was closed, it would have an adverse impact on businesses in Chinatown. People from all the places used to be able to park, now we have not one place to park. All the parking spaces on Mulberry Street, Bayard Street, Mott Street are now used by the government employees from the Justice department and the police precinct. We, the residents, have nowhere to park at tall. The government should tackle the problem, they should build a bigger car park, the government officials should be allocated a specific spot to park, and those spots should be given back to the residents. That would be the proper measure. For Park Row [closure], we were working on it and still working on it now. They have to re-open it. But now, the mayor has been dragging on the issue and won’t re-open it. Once it’s re-opened, there will be a lot more businesses. When the roads are blocked, the traffic would be chaotic, so people won’t even want to come into Chinatown for dinners. Q: Mr. Chung, where is the police car park you mentioned? Chung: It’s right behind here. That is, is that called Precinct Plaza? Or the Federal Plaza? Q: Is that where the city hall is? Chung: It is nearby, next to the Police Plaza. Q: We take a break here. Photographer: Okay. Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know. I know you were the president of CCBA, which is the largest organization in Chinatown. Sometimes you have to welcome officials and politicians from mainland China or Taiwan. Have you ever feel you were in an… awkward position? Chung: For this question…well, for politicians from Taiwan, we treat them the same, we have connections with them, there’s no problem at all. For those from mainland China, we used to have no contact, no communication and no… But in recent years, mainland China has become more open-minded, so there has been contact and communication [between us] sometimes. So long as we don’t touch on politics and only discuss issues related to the status of overseas Chinese, things like that. They [the mainland officials] also know that we are not in an easy position to talk about that [politics]. A few years ago, when I went to mainland China, I have been to Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing and other places, everything was good… with those cities. Q: Would you consider strengthening the relationship? Especially the economic ties? Chung: This is a mutual, and natural development. China needs gain the trust and help from overseas Chinese. In the past, they called overseas Chinese ‘foreigners’. Now they changed the attitude. They call the overseas Chinese as Gui Qiao [returned Chinese] when they return to their homeland. Therefore, she will gradually change. We, hope that she [mainland China] can at least learn half of what U.S. is doing, and have freedom. Let trade flourishes, allows free trade, don’t set up all kinds of restrictions. Therefore… we have been here in the U.S. for decades, we are used to being free, so if you want to exert control…therefore, when a lot of people who just arrive in the U.S., they would say the U.S. is no good, but once they stay longer and get used to the lifestyle here, they will enjoy the goodness of the U.S. lifestyle. They will know that the U.S. is full of freedom, something they could not comprehend before. Q: Mr. Chung, what are the pictures in your hands? Chung: This one is taken at the grand opening of the Grand Street subway station. Because in 2001, 2001, the Manhattan Bridge had to be repaired and there was roadwork with the D line at the Grand Street subway station. Therefore, we went up to the MTA and tried to negotiate with them, we want them to shorten the closing period. At that time, they said it would be closed for four to six years, we all felt that that’s far too long. For those people, residents and nearby businesses, it would cause so much inconvenience. You should shorten the closure, to two or three years. Therefore, after two and a half years, about two and a half years, it was completed. And a few days ago it reopened, that was the 22nd of this month it reopened. Q: Okay, I see. Photographer: Anything else? Go ahead. Q: Mr. Chung, I noticed there are many pictures you took with celebrities in your house. Can you tell us more about these pictures? Chung: Sure. Q: This is Madame Soong Mayling, right? Chung: Yes. And this is me. Q: Oh, this is you! Chung: This is Madame Soong Mayling and this is ambassador Zhou Shukai. This is Soong T.V.[Madame Soong’s brother]. Q: Oh, Soong T.V.. When did you meet them? Chung: In 1972. Q: She come to New York, right? Chung: She came to New York to treat her skin problem, for skin treatment. Q: Oh, okay. What’s your impression of Madame Soong? Chung: She’s very elegant and was a true first lady of a country. When she helped the president Chiang Kai-shek and attended all those meetings, such as the Cairo conference, she contributed a lot to China’s diplomacy. For example, her war efforts against Japanese invasion, she came to the Congress and gave a speech; came to the Chatham Square and spoke in front of the overseas Chinese here…she took the America by storm. A Chinese woman, could be so selfless and went abroad to resist the Japanese invasion… Therefore, we all have high respect of her, she is a truly great person in this world. Q: She passed away this year. Did you directly….? Chung: She passed away this year. I paid my respect to her in the church and family held services, we attended the services. Q: There was a service for her in Chinatown… Chung: A memorial service in a Catholic church in Chinatown. Q: Okay, Mr. Chung, you have been to the home of Madame Soong, in upstate or uptown, right? Uptown? Chung: Yes, uptown near 80-something street and the Fifth Avenue. Q: At the time when you met with her, did she express her expectations of the overseas Chinese here? Chung: That was a private visit, [it was arranged by] consulate general, Mr. Ye Guobin, who was a relative of her. He said to me, “Mr. Chung, I’ll bring you to visit Madame Chiang.” I gladly said yes. So we went together to visit Madame Soong. She was painting, drawing plum blossoms and orchids. She was not so old back then, in her 60s or 70s. She said, “I am learning to draw flowers now, what do you think?” I said her painting was very nice. Then I asked how she felt about the Chinese immigrants her. She said, “The Chinese immigrants contributed a lot to the country [China] during wartime, during the resistance of Japanese invasion, many donated money and joined the army.” She appreciated what the Chinese immigrants had done. She said she hoped more Chinese immigrants would visit Taiwan more often.” Q: When did you meet her? Chung: In 1972, the next day after I welcomed her at the airport. Q: Take a break here? Q: Mr. Chung, let’s talk about your family life? Chung: Oh, at the moment, I am living with my wife here, two elderly. My son is till in China, he has a son, two grandchildren of ours. One of them, the eldest grandson married last December. So…when he [my son] wanted to come here, there’s no diplomatic ties between the U.S. and China, [the U.S.] hadn’t recognize China at the time, so there’s no way he could come over. By the time he could come, he is already running his own business and has no time to come. Now I’m old, what can he do…so still he hasn’t come here yet. Q: Really? Chung: He sent money to me. That’s it. Q: But deep in your heart, have you felt that the life in the United States would…? Chung: [………] Q: Mr. Chung, how many children do you have and how old are they? Chung: My son? My children? He is in his 60s now. Q: Oh, how many [children do you have]? Chung: One. One son and two grandchildren. The grandchildren are now in their twenties. The eldest one married this, this year. Q: Have they ever come and visit you? Meet you? Chung: No, never. In the past, there’s no diplomatic tie between mainland China and the U.S., so when they have diplomatic relationship now, my son is running his business and has no time. Therefore, they still haven’t been here. I went back to China two years ago, I went to China with my wife and met them. Q: So, they all live in Mei county in Guangdong? What’s their business? Chung: My son is in the transportation industry and repairs vehicles. Q: You have been in the United States for so many years, so you haven’t seen your son for a long time. Don’t you miss him? Chung: We talk over the phone. Q: Talking over the phone…… Chung: Write letters, talk on the phone and so on. Q: In fact, a lot of people in China want to come to the United States. Since you have the chance, it’s kind of strange that, why your son…was it because your son was not willing to come? Or it doesn’t matter at all? Chung: He wants to come but he is getting old. What can he do here? It will be hard to start all over again. Q: Or maybe, if the grandchildren want, will your grandchildren come over here? Chung: They want to come. But, let’s see, it all depends. First of all, they are still young and besides, they just graduated from college. Q: What is your expectation from your family- your child and your grandchildren? Chung: What kind of expectation… If he, he can take care of his family, that is good. If he can work in his homeland, it is good too. Let’s wait and see. Q: Even when you talk to them over the phone, you would still miss them. Do you go to China often and visit them? Chung: We’re planning to go this July or August if there is a chance. But it depends on our feet, whether we can walk or not. We both fell last year. Q: Oh, really? Chung: I fell down, downstairs at Confucius Plaza in April. I stayed at the hospital for a month. Now I walked slowly. She fell in September at Bowery. Q: Oh, fell down at Bowery Street…… Q: Ok, stop here. Chung: I don’t know what else to say. Q: Now that you are retired, what do you usually do everyday? Chung: Apart from going to the CCBA, I attend some social gatherings. Besides, I accompany my wife at home most of the time. To stay with my wife. Mrs. Chung: I’m in my 80s now. Where else can I go? Q: Mr. Chung. I’d like to know this, a lot of people say that there’s a long waiting list for people applying for housing units at Confucius Plaza, it’s very difficult to get in. Is that true? Chung: Yes. It’s because there’re two to three thousand people on the waiting list for the Confucius Plaza. Q: Waiting list? Chung: So, it’s very difficult, it’s a long wait. Mrs. Chung: Some wait even until the second generation. Chung: Some of them if they do wait that long, they may [have it]….. Q: If one has to wait, how long usually is the waiting time? Chung: Some wait for twenty years. Q: Twenty years? Then, you must feel you are the lucky one now? Chung: No, actually we had the unit right from the beginning…It’s because, the Chinese Chamber of Commerce was a member of CCBA. So I filled out a form and of course [my application] was processed quickly. It wasn’t that emotional. They would notify you… At that time, a lot of people submit their applications, but in the end they didn’t want it. They said the units were expensive. At that time, the rent for other apartments were about fifty to sixty dollars, but [here, the rent is] seventy to eighty dollars for a unit. Now, [the rent for] our unit here is over two hundred dollars… Q: They charged over two hundred dollars at that time? Chung: Yes, even to this day, it’s still over two hundred dollars. Q: Oh, the price hasn’t changed for all these years? Chung: It used to be over two hundred fifty dollars, two hundred fifty dollars. Q: And now the rent is? Chung: It is now over two hundred eight dollars. The price has increased. An increase of five dollars, sometimes. Q: Only a small increase after all those years? That… Chung: The building has been subsidized by government. There’s government subsidized, with money from the federal, state and city governments. Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know that, East Broadway has undergone rapid development. How was East Broadway like back then? Chung: In the old days, East Broadway was occupied by Italians and other immigrants. There were not that many stores, and not even Chinese people. But after the 80s, or the 70s, gradually more people lived there, by the 80s, East Broadway was saturated. Most of the buildings are owned by the Chinese. In the old days, [the Chinese] rented their places there. Q: Ok, Mr. Chung, do you have anything to add? Chung: That’s about it. I cannot remember a lot of things. Q: Okay. Don’t worry. Thanks for your time today. Chung: Fine. You are very welcome. [End of Session] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問︰二月二十六日﹐這是紐約華埠口述歷史計劃。今日我們請到中華公所前主席鍾僑征先生接受訪問的。訪問的人是我吳翊菁。鍾先生你是幾時出世的﹖ 鍾僑征︰我是一九一九[年九月二十九日]出世的。 問︰你是那裡人﹖ 鍾僑征︰我是廣東梅縣[人]﹐在中國。 問︰你是怎樣來到美國的呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰我在一九三七年的時候去到印度﹐我姐夫他有生意在那兒﹐所以我去幫他做生意。以後呢在世界第二次大戰結束以後呢﹐我就從印度到來美國﹐New York。 問︰當初你為什麼會想去印度的呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰那時﹐當時剛剛我讀完中學嘛﹐我老竇要我去印度我姐夫那兒幫手﹐所以我便去印度。適逢又是日本人又是打仗﹐同我們中國打仗。 問︰那你在印度做甚麼﹖ 鍾僑征︰我在印度那時﹐我在我姐夫的皮[革]廠做[事]﹐但係呢﹐以後我又在一個機關度做事。所以做到來美國﹐一九四九年來美國。 問︰那當初在印度的生活是怎麼樣的﹖ 鍾僑征︰印度的生活呢﹐就…我們中國人來講呢﹐即是﹐有皮廠之外呢﹐有那些工廠呀、做木[材生意]呀﹐有那些做生意出入口呀﹐有那些… 各種鋪頭[有些人]做雜貨店買賣呀﹐都﹐ 那時候都好[每日工資大約] …四、五元的。那時人相當多﹐打仗的時候… 一打仗的時候呢﹐好多船停[泊]到印度呀[不能出海]﹐所以那些海員又多﹐所以我們中國人呢舊時相當多[暫時停留]在印度呀。 問︰在那麼多中國人當中﹐是否譬如廣東人最多呢、或者客家人﹖ 鍾僑征︰是廣東人最多。 問︰Ok。鐘先生我想問下﹐你在大陸的時候呢﹐你屋企… 可不可以講一下你屋企呀﹖你屋企有幾多人呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰我屋企﹐我的父母都過[世]後囉﹐而我大佬亦過[世]後﹐我的姊妹兄弟。但係呢﹐現在我有兒子、孫呀都在大陸。 問︰Ok, 當初來美國你抱著一個怎麼樣的期望﹖ 鍾僑征︰我當時來﹐經過… 我當時來美國是這樣的︰我本來想返鄉下﹐來到這兒﹐美國﹐因為剛剛在大陸又…中共又同國民政府軍隊打仗啦﹐所以發生九一一﹖ 戰事﹐ 後來我停在美國沒有返去。[本來想回大陸去﹐因中共已經渡江﹐就在美國停留。] 問︰即是﹐你是不是否坐船途中 … 鍾僑征︰我即係﹐我返香港的船呀嘛﹐所以我來到這兒 ﹐我便沒有返去。 [我本來是住美國返香港的﹐由於中共亦渡江南下﹐我便沒有返去。] 問︰即當時入境美國是很容易的事﹖ 鍾僑征︰係。唔係﹐唔係話好容易﹐我那兒有買船票來﹐經過的。 [絕非容易﹐主要是想等候時局平靜之後才回去﹐便在紐約停留了下來。] 問︰你幾時來到美國﹖一九﹖ 鍾僑征︰一九四九年。 問︰那時你是否在Chinatown到住呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰個陣時初初來到因為是在餐館做事﹐我朋友介紹我去餐館做waiter。以後囉﹐便返來唐人街做事囉。在客家會館做秘書﹐又做主席。 問︰即是你開頭時﹐不是直接在華埠這兒工作的﹖你在‥ 鍾僑征︰我開頭在[ 長島唐人]餐館[學]呀﹐[後來才正式]同人餐館打工呀。 問︰那餐館在那兒﹖ 鍾僑征︰[後來的]餐館在New Jersey。 問︰那時的New Jersey 華人多不多﹖ 鍾僑征︰噢﹐那兒好少﹐唐人少﹐華人少的。不過我們做工‥一個星期返去一次去New York。 問︰你怎樣返去﹖你有甚麼‥ 鍾僑征︰我們有車呀﹐有餐館有車接我們過去呀‥off的時候﹐便又返出來﹐送我們出來。 問︰沒有好像現在那麼方便有長途巴士﹖ 鍾僑征︰舊時沒那麼方便啦。 問︰ok。鍾生﹐你來到美國﹐ 對美國的第一印象是怎樣呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰初初來到﹐自己覺得美國是不錯的。因為覺得呢﹐樣樣都好自由︰任得你做甚麼﹐總之你不犯法、唔對人家不好呢﹐你就可以自己做。相當自由﹐所以覺得又唔錯。所以尤其是大陸又打仗﹐都沒法子﹐唔返得去﹐便在這兒居留下來。 問︰那﹐做餐‥你那時是否第一次做餐館？ 鍾僑征︰第一次做我﹐但是[先做]企檯呀﹐做waiter。以後我自己做[開]餐館。 問︰哦﹐你自己開餐館﹖ 鍾僑征︰Yeah﹐ 因為我在客家會館做秘書又做主席。我便又開鋪頭﹐開花鋪呀、咖啡室呀﹐以後便開餐館。 問︰ok。你那時﹐你幾時才真正在華埠住呢﹐譬如﹐或者在華埠生活呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰我一直都在華埠住﹐即是除了話去New Jersey做waiter以後﹐出來又…都在華埠住。 問︰那當時﹐當年紐約華埠是怎樣的﹖ 鍾僑征︰當年紐約華埠呢﹐人相當少。不是話像現在好似香港有那麼多人來來去去。舊時人﹐有十個八個成日在街道行來行去算好多﹐好高興的樣子。現在來講﹐現在街的兩邊都塞滿了人﹐ 在sidewalk那裡﹐所以比以前差得相當遠啦。 [現在比以前擁擠得多。] 問︰當時的華埠有多大呀﹖ 譬如有那幾條街﹖ 鍾僑征︰當時華埠呢﹐即是勿街、擺也街、Mulberry 街呀‥Canal街那兒。過了 Canal街都是意大利那些人多。現在呢我們發‥ 中國人的唐人街呢發展到Mul...Canal街過去那邊﹐上去啦到Houston, Houston街上面去了。現在發展得相當快速啦。最近這十幾二十年來發展得更快﹐就到處呢我們中國人的招牌呀,那些中國人呀來來去去都是那麼多人﹐現在。 問︰鐘先生﹐那當時華埠的移民是甚麼人居多呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰當時‥舊時﹐就是一九六二年呀Kennedy 總統話大陸有逃亡﹐逃亡潮的時候呢﹐他就開放話給二萬五千人來嘛。所以來了的二萬五千萬人﹐我們曉的﹐叫做全美華人福利總會。總會呢就根據他的﹐Kennedy總統法案就申請話﹐以後俾這個額數給我們﹐即是亞洲人呀﹐我們中國人呀等。所以[每年]有二萬五千人[移民﹐一直]到現在都是這樣。 問︰那譬如以前是不是廣東人最多的﹖ 鐘僑征︰以首先就是廣東人最多﹐但是現在﹐現在目前來講呢﹐就各方面的人都不少了啦﹐尤其是現在福建來的鄉里特別多。 問︰其實當年你有沒有預計過華埠他日會發展得那麼快呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰那時﹐未想到的。當時的時候呢﹐這個Division街呢政府都想拆落來﹐有些地產商想拆囉﹐後來沒有拆﹐政府就鼓勵這些人呢‥ 就舊屋翻新呀‥即是貸款給你﹐你就來修理﹐這樣啦。 問︰那時是幾年前的事﹖ 鍾僑征︰那時﹐七‥七二年以後﹐好似呢個Johnson 做總統﹐anti-poverty ﹐ anti- poverty 的時候。即係話反貧計劃﹐有一個反貧計劃那時候﹐anti-poverty 的時候。 問︰以前Division 街是否都是唐人啦﹖ 鍾僑征︰以前呢就叫做賣帽街﹐即係呢猶太人呢‥呢條街呢兩邊都是賣女人衣裳和女人帽呀﹐所以我們中國人呢街名唔知道甚麼街名﹐就話賣帽街﹐就知道哪兒賣帽﹐知道噢‥賣帽‥賣帽街就這樣叫下去﹐賣帽街。 鍾太︰賣衣裳呀﹐他們。 問︰ Break here? 攝影師︰Go ahead。 問︰鍾生﹐你在第一家餐館你做了幾耐呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰我第一個餐館做了年幾呀﹐然後返來[在客家會館]做秘書。 問︰客家會館﹖ 鍾僑征︰客家會館做[完]秘書便無做囉。無做呀… 做完秘書﹐便又返去做下去其他餐館做囉。 問︰那時客家人多不多呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰那時客家人呢﹐都‥ 都有有幾百人啦我們客家﹐有好幾百人啦。 問︰Ok, 鍾先生﹐當年,即是五零年代啦﹐是不是移民的通常講廣東話的比較多呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰講廣東話多﹐因為五十年代呢那時候﹐因為我們中國人當美國兵啦﹐當兵然後他們有身份囉﹐所以便返去娶太太囉﹐所以這樣又來多好多人囉。而各方面人都有﹐不只我們廣東人囉﹐有些上海呀﹐其他地方省會的人都有好多嘛。 問︰他們譬如有不同的方言啦﹐溝通上有沒有問題呢﹐在華埠﹖ 鍾僑征︰都…這樣的﹐有時呀初初呢﹐就好多﹐就來到時後呢方言上多數講台山話、講廣州話。所以有些好似講北話的人呢﹐有時候買東西時他用筆寫呢﹐他因為方便慢慢聽你們講下、學下你們的廣東音呀﹐所以北佬他有時﹐講笑話呀︰「你們廣東人呀歧視我們這些北佬﹐即是賣東西呢你不算邊個﹐人家後來來的﹐你拼命給他﹐我們不給。」 因為做生意的人﹐他時間好寶貴﹐他識講的﹐他要乜隨時可以講得﹐隨時便給他囉。你呢不識講的用筆來寫﹐寫又看﹐又花好多時間﹐所以便慢慢俾人識得講的人﹐ 然後再來俾呢個北佬唔識講的。其實就不是這樣的﹐他因為他為著做生意快些俾人家不想阻時間。 問︰北話即是國語﹖ 鍾僑征︰係﹐有些講國語﹐講北話﹐有些講廣州話又是北話。 問︰哦﹐係呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰所以呢北話呢﹐講同那些北方的人就講話北話﹐北話啦。現在多數講國語囉。 問︰當年呢﹐是不是﹐ 聽你講流行國語片﹖ 鍾僑征︰就‥六十年代就國語呢就開始流行囉。因為呢那些有些國內呀那些出來的人﹐即是多數那些台灣人來容易些﹐那些講國語的逐漸多。同時那些國語片呀﹐個個都鍾意看國語片呀﹐所以呢就廣東戲呢都逐漸減少廣東片。因為大家鍾意看﹐一方面他又可以學國語﹐一方面又可以看電影嘛﹐所以唐人街呢對電影都幫助好多‥就講學話來講。 問︰鍾先生我想問一下﹐當年呢你話Division 街是甚麼時候正式開幕的﹖ 鍾僑征︰Division 街的樓‥客家的樓‥崇正會的呢就一九五三年開幕‥五一年就拿過來裝修嘛﹐ 五三年十月十號開幕那個﹐崇正會的樓‥ 問︰鍾先生﹐我想問下你﹐你講過話你做過很多不同的生意啦﹐其實你鍾意哪一個行業多一些﹖或者各行業有甚麼辛酸史呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰那時的行業呢﹐我們中國人呢一個餐館﹐一個衣館。過左就係﹐車衣廠。 車衣廠五十年代不多﹐六十年代的車廠逐漸多囉﹐所以好多我們新移民來到的婦女就可以在車衣廠到做﹐ 對中國人的家庭來講補助好大。因為他要一份工作嘛﹐他太太如果出來幫一份做一份工嘛。 問﹕那你自己是開餐館和開… 鍾僑征︰開餐館、花鋪﹐同咖啡店。 問︰咖啡店﹐同時間做﹖ 鍾僑征︰即是﹐我一間鋪頭大間﹐我就分成兩面﹐一邊做花鋪、一邊咖啡shop這樣。 問︰那個鋪頭在哪兒﹖ 鍾僑征︰就在Divison 街﹐就是呀﹐就是崇正會樓下﹐即是我客家會館﹐我在那兒做秘書﹐所以我﹐因為那時後好少人租鋪﹐那時做生意的人又不是好多的時候。 問︰他們不租鋪﹐是不是在街邊擺檔多呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰不是﹐無街邊擺。那時候很少街邊擺檔的﹐是現在近這十多年來街邊擺檔的多。 問︰鍾先生﹐我想問一下你﹐除了客家會館之外﹐你有沒有做其他的公職﹖ 鍾僑征︰除了客家僑團﹖ 問︰你還有沒有做其他的公職﹖其他的‥ 鍾僑征︰我有呀﹐聯成公所呀﹐美東聯成公所呀。 問﹕你是做﹐做甚麼職位﹖ 鍾僑征︰做主席呀。 問︰幾時﹖ 鍾僑征︰一九六八年[做聯成公所主席]。我一九六四年中華公所做主席呀﹐一九六八年就聯成公所做呀。以後又一九七二年又做中華公所主席呢﹐就現在零零…二零零年都是呀二千年呀。 問︰鍾先生﹐你可不可以講一下﹐不同年代﹐譬如紐約的華埠有甚麼不同的問題﹖譬如六十年代呀﹐你在中華公所做主席﹐你見到有甚麼問題需要改善的呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰噢﹐六十年代呢﹐那時呢﹐那些中國人呢做生意﹐那些餐館業呀那時好旺﹐衣館又係可以做﹐又有laundromat 呀其他呢﹐所以衣館變成淘汰了。所以這生意少些。所以呢我們話頭先講﹐話車衣業呀﹐ 那兒又逐漸就… 衣廠多囉逐漸逐漸多…衣廠﹐車衣廠囉。 問﹕那時華埠有沒有甚麼問題呀或者需要改善的地方﹖六十年代﹖ 鍾僑征︰因為那時呢好難講﹐因為中華公所本身呢肩負任務﹐想做事呀都唔做得來。那時六十年代呢﹐五十幾年呢就我們籌款蓋中華大樓‥ 問﹕即是現在‥ 鍾僑征︰籌到九十幾萬﹐現在六十二號Mott Street的中華大樓﹐籌到就有九十幾萬﹐差不多壹佰萬呀。所以就蓋好樓呢﹐一九六二年成功呀完成了。 問︰哦﹐剛剛開始… 鍾僑征︰搬入去﹐就是呢六二到六四年呢﹐那時候搬入去﹐但是未在那兒辦公﹐是借聯成公所辦公。但我做主席呢﹐我就搬入去辦公。就我買傢私呀﹐各種用的東西我買。所以那時就搬入去那裡辦公囉﹐中華公所到現在。 問﹕哦﹐你是第一個中華公所會長在那個大樓辦公的﹖ 鍾僑征︰我第一次做中華公所主席就係。 問﹕那時你剛剛新官上任﹐你有沒有想那時有沒有想﹐在兩年在這兩年內要做的事情去改善華埠的生活呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰那時呢﹐有時候可能…你想﹐頭先講的你想做呢都你要有經濟才做得來…即是其實見事做事﹐如果有甚麼事情我便來做囉﹐這樣囉。 問︰Ok。 鍾僑征︰因為你經濟無呀﹐你又唔想話做點樣來去…太過用來做嘛。 問﹕即是當年籌款都籌了很久﹖籌這筆錢﹖ 鍾僑征︰籌…就建立的時候。係呀﹐籌了幾年啦。大概是五五年開首﹐一九五五年開首籌備籌款呀。 問﹕主要都是僑胞呀‥ 鍾僑征︰所有僑胞都‥軍人來捐款啦。三藩市我們都有人匯捐﹐中部呀 —中部即是芝加哥呀、羅省呀、波士頓呀﹐各地都有捐款來。所以我們叫做中華大樓。 問﹕Ok, shall we take a break here? 攝影師︰ok go ahead。 問﹕鍾先生﹐我想請你講一下﹐你以前在大陸生活的童年往事﹖ 鍾僑征︰我七歲的時候呢就跟我的先父呢就去呢個新加坡﹐試了一年﹐以後呢就入馬來西亞聯邦那兒﹐去美羅埠到住﹐因為我老竇在裡面做木材生意呀﹐同那些朋友合作做生意嘛﹐所以做呢﹐我便在那兒讀書讀到十幾歲返去大陸﹐返去大陸呢﹐以後十七歲呢﹐我們中學畢了業﹐我們又去到印度﹐那時適逢就是日本人打…盧溝橋事變時候﹐我們便出去印度啦。 問﹕鍾先生﹐譬如你在很多的地方都住過啦﹐你覺得﹐哪一個地方你覺得叫做一個家﹐給你一個家的感覺呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰家呀﹐點樣﹖啊﹐home。老實講﹐在東南亞的地方呢﹐都…一方面是熱﹐第二方面沒有那麼乾淨﹐沒有那麼乾淨﹐好多那些‥垃圾﹐垃圾很多﹐除非呢西人住的地方呢比較乾淨些。不過新加坡又不錯﹐新加坡又一直都很乾淨。不過如果馬來西亞聯邦入面呢﹐因為我們住在山坡那兒﹐同我唐叔那些在山坡割那些樹膠呀﹐我做小孩住在一起﹐我四圍去小朋友﹐除了讀書之外無事做﹐又我十幾歲回大陸﹐讀中學﹐讀完便就來美﹐印度囉。[去印度﹐我姐夫處。] 問﹕你可不可以講一下廣州梅縣當時是怎麼樣的城市呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰廣州[東]梅縣…我們‥梅縣就是一個城市呀。我們梅縣呢舊時入面呢不是很繁榮﹐不是好繁榮﹐不過現在來講不錯﹐舊時的田段呀﹐現在都蓋了戶﹐舊時全是田段。同時呢橋呀又不多﹐那時一九三七年左右呢就開始來建梅江橋﹐梅江橋蓋起來以後﹐逐漸就再蓋其他的橋。 問﹕梅縣是不是一個工業城市﹐還是一個農業城市呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰農業﹐農業﹐農業城市。不過我們現在農業地方不多﹐山多﹐山多地少。 問﹕其實是不是梅縣[田少人多]有好多梅縣的人都…客家人到外邊移民﹖ 鍾僑征︰係﹐多數﹐多數。我們客家人呢好似從軍呀﹐去做生意呀﹐就這樣﹐出門去做生意呀。婦女就留在屋企呢幫手耕種田地呀。 問﹕Ok, take a break here? 問︰鍾先生﹐我想問一下﹐六十年代呢非法移民的問題是否很嚴重呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰這樣﹐呢個六十年代﹐非法入來的呢﹐就即是好多﹐又唔可以講嚴重。因為來到美國呢都是因為在大陸上呀﹐那些動亂﹐他沒法子生活﹐所以要逃出來﹐就借呢個船有些到美國或者到其他地方嘛。所以來到美國﹐他留下來生活囉。所以呢那時移民局便成大批來帶走囉﹐所以舊時適逢我做中華公所主席﹐我便同福利總會的那些人呀﹐理事長呀那些負責人呀律師﹐就去… [電話鈴聲] 問﹕休息一下先。 鍾僑征︰頭先講到哪兒﹖ 問﹕六十年代非法移民的問題‥ 鍾僑征︰呀係﹐那些非法移民呢﹐就這樣﹐我們中國人開餐館那麼多啦﹐他那些上岸上來的多數有些人做廚的﹐所以便遇著那些人帶他走呢﹐即我們餐館便無人做廚囉﹐無人囉。你請其他人﹐又語言上又不對﹐講不來呀。所以我們到Washington DC移民總局向他請求囉﹐同埋要去國會哪兒﹐見國會議議長囉﹐就是將這個非法移民的人呢﹐好不好呢暫時就保…准他在這兒暫時在居留先﹐因為他在大陸上動亂呀﹐ 他沒法子在哪兒生活﹐所以他出來的。所以我…你美國講人道主義、民主自由的﹐我話呢︰「希望你能夠留下來。」他有一個議長講笑﹐他說︰「Mr. Chung﹐唔該你marry我的女仔﹐美國的女仔便好囉﹐ 結婚便保留他身份囉。」講笑呀。 問﹕其實當初游說這些政府官員容不容易呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰我們﹐從前囉﹐游說他囉﹐即是他又好體恤這些人呀。即是話﹐他真係﹐連Kennedy他都放那麼多人入來囉﹐所以他便好同情﹐所以他說這樣啦︰「給你試五年的時間﹐他在這裡住下來啦﹐等他四年﹐做到有四年工﹐有賺有錢啦。他返去香港或者邊度去謀生啦。」這樣嘛。他話︰「再來的﹐又留落四年﹐我又等到四年﹐又來又送他走。」就這樣嘛。 問﹕當時他們這種是否叫工作證﹐我們現在叫工作證﹖ 鍾僑征︰無工作證的。他即是﹐移民局會給一張單﹐即是話他… 他…他居留過期的﹐他張紙寫明他parole出來呀﹐或者點﹐有個parole嘛。 問﹕其實﹐你知不知﹐大概有幾多人﹐因為呢個﹐呢個新的政策受惠的啦﹐有沒有統計過﹖ 鍾僑征︰我都無‥無﹐點樣統計﹖舊時就話有四、五百人一齊押解﹐我們根據平時跟那麼多的人去同移民局講嘛﹐同國會那些人講嘛。 問﹕即是第一次是四百多五百人﹖之後呢﹐之後有多少﹖ 鍾僑征︰以後唔知﹐我們有時上去同他講﹐希望他不押解﹐他便停下來﹐他暫時性不押解囉。 問﹕鍾先生﹐我想問一下你第一次﹐即是六零年代做中華公所主席呢﹐除了這個政策令到好多僑胞受惠啦﹐你可不可以講一下其他中華公所得工作呀﹖譬如你話過有個學校‥ 鍾僑征︰其他工作﹐六零年代呢﹐舊時候呢﹐我們有小學呀、中學呀﹐那些嘛﹖ 問﹕係… 鍾僑征︰教中文的。即是學中文的。五分局的局長他都來﹐警察都來學中文呀。 問﹕哦﹐是呀﹐在哪兒上堂呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰就在﹐中華大樓樓上﹐學校來呀。 問﹕那時有多少學生到﹖那時有多少學生… 鍾僑征︰學生﹐大約有千多﹐二千人。 問﹕那麼多… 鍾僑征︰現在目前三千幾人。 問﹕他們中小學這樣﹖ 鍾僑征︰Yeah。 問﹕除此之外呢六十年代的東西你有沒有要補充呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰六十年代甚麼﹖ 問﹕你有沒有想補充﹐譬如其他中華公所的工作﹖ 鍾僑征︰點樣﹐甚麼意思呢﹖ 問﹕不如講一下七十年代啦﹐之後你第二次做中華公所主席啦﹐起孔子大廈是不是你最大的project呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰七十年代呢﹐就孔子大廈。因為有一個姓羅﹐羅金水[又稱羅德明]先生嘛。他看到報紙話市府有一個空地俾…提供中國人來做住宅呀。所以他看到他便去申請。去申請﹐他組織一個華園公司嘛﹐但係呢他去申請呢﹐但是他話呢個公司你有無信用﹐你租出去有幾耐﹖他話剛剛成立。他話﹐這樣你又剛剛成立﹐你點樣使人信用呀﹖點樣情形呢﹐所以他…又唔好﹐ 最好你返來呢你同你的社區看看哪一個公所﹐大的團體等它來出面來負責呀﹐這樣囉。後來他找到我﹐我便召集我們中華公所的常務委員幾個人﹐就同市府接洽﹐一講他便答應啦。他說得﹐你中華公所當然給你啦﹐因為當時市長是林西嘛Lindsay﹐他做市長嘛﹐所以我我便同他又又得講下個局長聽﹐有個樓宇局局長的人嘛﹐所以我就講市長都…後來他說好﹐你們中華公所拿去啦﹐中華公所我們一定可以做的。所以我們中華公所開會囉﹐開會﹐就交給中華總商會。我們中華公所呢屬下有六十個團體﹐ 所以中華總商會是屬於中華公所一個大團體之一嘛﹐所以就交給它做。 問﹕其實籌‥當初為什麼話起一個孔子大廈專門for老人居住﹖點解不話起其他… 鍾僑征︰不是講專門老人﹐中等入息﹐middle income。中等入息﹐就唔係話俾老人。本來我們想話老人﹐找不到地方。找不到地方﹐本來Henry街有間一百一十一號﹐Henry 街買左啦﹐終於買左啦。賣左﹐因為又唔係大間﹐又要夠…全舊裝修﹐又賣左﹐無用囉。 問﹕孔子大廈是幾時起的﹖ 鍾僑征︰孔子大廈一九‥二七﹐二七[一九七三年]﹐七三、七四年開首的﹐七三、七四開首的﹐到七五年就完成了﹐七五年十二月我們就搬入來住啦。 問﹕那時候譬如籌集資金呀﹐順不順利呢﹖譬如起這個‥ 鍾僑征︰資金是聯邦政府、省政府、市政府借來的﹐我們現在要…要供呀﹐供五十年呀。 問﹕啊﹐供五十年呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰有些是銀行借﹐幾間中國銀行呀﹐舊時金融銀行呀﹐東方銀行﹐主要銀行借呀貸款。 問﹕譬如一個普通得單位啦﹐舉例大概需要幾多錢呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰哦…[兩百多元一個單位的租金] 問﹕譬如一個普通單位大約要供大約多少錢啦﹖ 鍾僑征︰哦…[由大樓管理處去供﹐住戶便交租金。] 問﹕譬如如果要供一個單位啦﹐即是租一個單位大概需要多少錢呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰要多少錢﹖[以前中等入息的住戶﹐要交兩百八十三元租金。] 問﹕譬如你這裡租貴不貴﹖ 鍾僑征︰哦﹐呢度﹖噢﹐即是一個柏文﹐一個柏文呀嘛﹖一個柏文至少都二百幾銀。 問﹕一個月﹖ 鍾僑征︰一個月﹐就是因為呢﹐它政府有一部份補助。 問﹕哦﹐一半補助。那現在這個大樓大概有幾多戶呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰七百幾戶呀。頭先講的是貸款的﹐都…唔個個話貸款﹐不是後來銀行同它…金融銀行未同它…是聯邦政府貸出來的錢﹐不是它的。而那個培護中心﹐那時叫培護中心﹐就係金融銀行同中美銀行[貸款的]。 問﹕那即是話當年的華埠是不是住屋問題是幾嚴重的﹖ 鍾僑征︰住屋呀﹐住屋是相…雖然無到現在那麼嚴重呀﹐現在都很少屋呀﹐舊時雖然話嚴重都搵得到去住﹐現在你想搵都搵唔到呀。就係… 問︰Take a break here? 問﹕鍾先生我想請你講一下九一一的事﹐你那時候是親眼看到九一一發生的﹐是不是﹖ 鍾僑征︰係﹐那時候﹐九一一那時候呢﹐大概朝頭早八點四十幾分鐘那時候﹐就第一座大樓就俾恐怖分子劫機呢撞毀了。即是那時候我都在樓下看到﹐望到呢個煙﹐濃煙走出來﹐就沒想到是恐怖份子劫機﹐因為以為飛機撞到或者點樣嘛。後來一陣間跌第二架飛機又撞過來。 [客家話 - 鍾先生請鍾太不要插話。] 問﹕你那個時候是在中華公所或者在自己家裡這裡看到的﹖ 鍾僑征︰我﹐樓下﹐我因為我要去其他地方﹐我剛剛一出門在樓下望到。 問﹕孔子大廈﹖ 鍾僑征︰係。望到﹐後來我便拿起手機打電話﹐打不通。其他的打不通。那些人﹐有些朋友來到﹐我們本來同我們一齊去一個地方嘛﹐所以他話︰「現在他手機都打不通﹐不知是甚麼事幹。」後來以後呢人逐漸由世貿中心入面人就慢慢地行上來囉﹐行上來唐人街﹐一路走﹐就行上行上﹐好似一大陣人﹐一陣一陣走上來[湧到唐人街這邊來]﹐一直上到十幾街去個度。 問︰你當時想第一刻你想到要做的事是甚麼﹖九一一發生… 鍾僑征︰九一一當時呢﹐我返到辦公室唸下呢﹐那時係唔係幾了解情況﹐當時呢飛機‥同時有些濃煙﹐慢慢的煙火煙吹到中國城來。那時候唸下這個事情損失點樣都不是很清楚﹐ 所以後來第二日這個事情好像是比較嚴重﹐因為呢﹐ 個個警察呀、國防軍呀在街口呢攔住﹐要那些騎木馬凳呀攔住﹐不讓人家來往哪兒。除非你出身份證﹐你在那裡住的居民囉﹐你就可以拿出身份證給他看﹐他給你過。如果你又無帶身份證就唔得﹐所以呢好多居民就投訴︰我都無身份證現在你唔俾我入。我就打電話同五分局的局長講﹐他好合作﹐他就說︰「這樣哪﹐總之﹐你總之講給他們聽來這裡﹐住在哪兒的﹐無帶身份證的呢﹐我證明就俾你一張紙。」所以他便方便好多。同時呢有些送貨的﹐你有張紙簽名﹐即是五分局證明話他在附近做生意的﹐他貨車可以方便通過﹐就俾他行這樣啦。所以他就好﹐即是情況好亂好緊張的。那些街道呢都好似死城市﹐無人行﹐街道無人行﹐所以呢其他國家有些人都打電話來問︰「你點樣情況呀﹖」有時我會同他講因為我們中華公所的電話呢﹐幸好全部通﹐無無話唔通的。所以‥ 問﹕只是中華公所通﹐其他全部不通﹖ 鍾僑征︰所以我便召集我們中華公所的常務議員呀﹐便來開會囉﹐開臨時緊急會議﹐就中華公所呢出五萬銀﹐以後呢請那些各團體、商戶、僑胞﹐大家來捐款﹐來即是幫助這些災民﹐即是話九一一時間影響他的生意各方面有問題的﹐就要幫助他嘛。所以我們呢中共捐了有三十幾萬﹐電臺上的那些呼籲呢大概有二百幾萬 —當時幾大幾多確數我唔記得。 問﹕那已是好多了。 鍾僑征︰電臺又捐了很多﹐所以呢﹐我們捐到的錢就俾州長呀﹐給九一一基金會我們俾二十五萬。我們有俾警察呀﹐救護那些人員呀﹐好多各種醫療方面呀﹐紅十字會我們有捐錢它嘛。種種的呢三十幾萬我們全部發出去給人家。 問﹕那﹐那我想問中華公所那時所有振災工作全部都在大樓裡面進行的吧﹖ 鍾僑征︰係﹐這是捐款的。但是呢我們同聯邦政府個個…叫做趙小蘭勞工部長呀她那兒有派人來﹐州政府有派人來、市府又有派人來、法律咨詢又有人來、Verizon電話公司呀、有呢個電話公司呀紅十字會呀、有一個叫做FEMA那些亦來﹐所以在中華公所大樓入面呢我們俾出地方讓他們辦公。所以一日每天都有成幾千人走入來來去去呀﹐這樣嘛。 問﹕譬如﹐譬如重建華埠啦﹐政府有沒有給過甚麼資金呀﹐俾過錢譬如幫助華埠呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰重振華埠呢﹐其實我們有兩個給錢囉﹐重振華埠我們即是舊時候話我們中國人的生意一落千丈﹐影響那麼大。便我們在Daily News賣‥逢禮拜五呀賣一日廣告﹐都花四萬幾銀囉﹐只是賣廣告呀。另外呢﹐做一個sign ﹐一個sign﹐那兒又…又‥就好在那個不用錢﹐他一個劃積的送給我們中華公所﹐他劃積的送給我們。但我們繁榮華埠呢﹐舞獅呀﹐每個週末舞獅呀﹐請人來跳舞呀﹐那些我們要花錢。 問﹕那主要推廣華埠旅遊業﹖ 鍾僑征︰推廣華埠旅遊業嘛。所以呢趙小蘭勞工部長呢﹐她便落來兩次﹐最後一次她落來﹐她便給一百萬給叫做job training的就給人力中心呀、亞平會呀﹐華策會那些機構即是那些﹐即是來訓練的。給了一百萬是這樣啦。 問﹕即是趙小蘭部長… 鍾僑征︰係﹐趙小蘭部長。 問﹕鍾先生﹐那九一一對華埠的影響有多大呢﹖你可不可以講一下﹖ 鍾僑征︰哦﹐市面幾日停下來沒有生意﹐一直都無生意﹐影響相當大呀﹐損失好多﹐這個都好‥最緊要我們沒有那些數呢﹐總之﹐即是大家都講﹐有幾間鋪頭都關了﹐因為九一一的時候。 問︰你覺得現在譬如過了九一一兩年多啦﹐你覺得重建華埠的工作進行成怎樣﹖ 鍾僑征︰重建華埠工作呢﹐現在新的主席姓伍的﹐他都一樣繼續照樣來做。不過我們做開頭了﹐不過現在這樣不錯呀﹐就現在繁榮華埠的都在做。呢個呢即是要一步一步來逐漸來做﹐就能夠繁榮番來的。一方面﹐旅遊方面呢要怎樣加強來招來旅遊來觀光。尤其是車衣業方面呢﹐政府呢最好能夠來大力的支持它﹐等它恢復番呢﹐車衣業。現在車衣服業好少呀﹐我知現在好多人無工作做要向政府領失業金。 問︰其實你覺得現在chinatown有沒有急需要改善的地方呢﹖整體上來講﹐有沒有需要改善的地方﹖ 鍾僑征︰要改進﹐改進呢﹐我們最好呢unit 能夠加高。現在呢﹐呢度呢最高高到七層﹐七層樓。最好能夠加高到二十幾層。街道呢擴寬些﹐我們舊時候一個﹐一個發展繁榮華埠計劃﹐我們找一個[做]budget的Cury﹐來同我們budget來做…有計劃書的。同時發展觀光局﹐加強呢來協助發展車衣業囉。同埋呢增加房屋﹐房屋呀…同時街道能夠整修的整修﹐如果可以擴寬的呢最好能夠擴寬。這些即是我們一路來的目標﹐都是呢個。 問︰鍾先生我想問一下﹐九一一發生之後﹐這個事情對你對美國的看法有否不同呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰噢﹐呢個呢九一一呢﹐我們中國人來講呢﹐就這一次呢就非常之團結。所以話呢個影響好大﹐我們中國人方面比較團結。美國呢她損失那麼大﹐但是呢她又是想辦法來幫助我們的…那些損失那些﹐好似現在有LMD[C]… 問︰LMDC﹖ 鍾僑征︰LMDC呀﹐它便一樣來補助。就那些人呀﹐ 補助屋租呀﹐那些各種… 問︰所以你… [錄音帶009-1B面] 鍾橋征︰係﹐係﹐係。世界上話最好係美國呀﹐住係邊度有那麼好。尤其老弱﹐現在尤其是對老人福利特別多。 問︰即是你都好滿意在這裡生活﹖ 鍾僑征︰呀。 問︰Take a break here? 問︰鍾先生﹐其實我知道在華埠啦有很多左派和右派的僑團﹐可能它們水火不融的。你在華埠那麼久﹐你覺得譬如有甚麼辦法可以改善這個問題呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰um…呢個華埠呢﹐那些中國人…都是由大陸出來的都是到海外謀生呀﹐是不是﹖本來呢大家都有和平共處﹐大家來合作。不過當時呀大陸上的領導人對海外的僑胞呢有唔同的看法﹐所以同埋對家人的迫害方面呀﹐ 就好多影響好大﹐所以變成呢即是這些人同共產的人心理上有一種恐怖一樣。但係呢﹐現在一代一代兩代人逐呀漸﹐他…不同的改變﹐逐漸他知道以往那些的恥事是不對的﹐所以他又有改變了。所以在八十年代到九十年代呢稍微比較鬆懈些﹐不會大家好似大家水火不融呀﹐可以即是容忍一下有時大家至多便不講話﹐或者唔會你抵制我﹐我抵制你﹐比較少些。所以我﹐就我做第三屆主席的時候呢﹐我覺得呢我們大家都是同胞﹐大家海外都是兄弟﹐就應該呢和平共處。雖然我好多時﹐好似Grand街後來關閉的時候﹐我們便向MTA交通局哪兒呢﹐同他講﹐同他開會呀﹐甚至帶人去示威﹐都各方面左右派不分甚麼左右﹐大家都一致來同他交涉﹐中華公所的會[議]他們都有來參加﹐所以逐漸呢比較淡了不會敵對了﹐淡了。所以現在來講呢﹐有時大家都有來往呀﹐都是這樣﹐改變以往不同的看法囉。 問︰鍾先生﹐譬如剛剛Grand街地鐵站重開啦﹐其實你有沒有希望政府或者其他華埠交通問題上可以改善呢﹖譬如Park Row 呀那些… 鍾僑征︰本來大家便要…我做的時候應該都話啦政府…警察局的停車場應該要俾番保留俾大家用。因為你一關閉停車場對華埠生意影響好大﹐因為各地來到在這裡可以停車嘛﹐現在你哪兒沒有地方停車﹐街上Mulberry 街、Bayard 街、 Mott 街那些—給法院呀、警察局給他們全部泊了。我們居民想停車哪兒買東西都無法子停車。所以就要政府本來應該改善﹐你應該呢做多個大停車場﹐你政府那些官員那些﹐應該給他一個地區泊車﹐這些街坊的應該你俾番街坊用﹐這才對。Park Row 呢我們在交涉﹐現在都一樣在交涉﹐ 要他開放呀。但現在呢市長總是話要未開放。因為一開放呢﹐就生意會多好多的。因為你那些路﹐道路不通就好唔方便﹐所以人家食餐的都不敢來。 問︰我想問一下﹐你說的那個警察的停車場在哪兒﹖ 鍾僑征︰警察停車場在Federal Plaza 那兒。 鍾僑征︰就是後面就是呀。就是個個﹐個個是不是叫做 Precint Plaza ﹖不是叫Federal Plaza。 問︰即是政府總局哪兒﹖ 鍾僑征︰即是警察局旁邊﹐旁邊。 問︰we take a break here﹖ 攝影師︰ok。 問︰鍾生﹐我想問下﹐譬如我知道你做過中華公所主席﹐這是華埠最大的組織啦。有時你要接待來自大陸或者台灣的政客﹐你會不會處於一個好好…尷尬的地位呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰關於呢個呢…對台灣的政客來講呢﹐就我們一樣呀﹐都是我們同他有關係﹐有接觸的﹐那些無問題。大陸那些﹐以往呢就大家呢不敢接觸、無接觸﹐亦無…不過近這幾年來呢就大陸比較開放些﹐所以便有時便有些接觸﹐有些接觸。即是大家不講政治﹐講僑胞華僑的地位﹐就是這樣。他亦知道我們不方便講那些的。所以前年呢我返大陸去來﹐我去過北京、上海、南京各地都去來﹐都各方面都不錯﹐那些城市。 問︰那麼他們會否考慮以後加強與這裡的合作﹖譬如經濟上﹖ 鍾僑征︰這是﹐這是好自然的事情﹐這是好自然的事情。因為她覺得現在她要爭取華僑﹐舊時呢她認華僑呢就是外國人﹐現在呢她不是﹐改變作風。她現在呢華僑都是叫「歸僑」﹐現在大陸名叫「歸僑」呀﹐返到大陸呀。所以這個呢﹐她會逐漸改變。我們呢﹐無乜﹐希望她呢能夠學到美國一半﹐能夠有自由。有各種做生意都有自由貿易﹐不會話有樣樣管來控制﹐這樣嘛。所以這個…因為我們幾十年在美國﹐自由慣了﹐你話要來控制…又所以話﹐好多人初初來到美國呢﹐就說美國不好﹐等到他住落了以後﹐他覺得美國好﹐他知道美國自由各方面﹐以前他是不了解的。 問︰鍾生﹐我想問你手上的照片是甚麼﹖ 鍾僑征︰呢個呢﹐就是Grand Street 那個subway station grand﹐lead open 的相片﹐就是因為呢二零零一年的時候﹐二零零一年呀﹐就因為Manhattan 橋要修再修理﹐同埋Grand Street subway station 都要填D 線﹐所以呢就我們就向交通局去同它講數﹐請它修理時間縮短。那時候它講呢要四年到六年﹐我們都覺得你那麼長時間﹐那些﹐那些人﹐住客﹐附近的主客呢﹐好多來來去去的人呢好不方便呀﹐你應該縮短時間﹐兩年呀或者三年這樣。所以現在呢它終於兩年半﹐大概兩年半時間已經做好了。所以現在早幾日開幕﹐這個月二十二日就在這兒開幕。 問︰ok, 好。 攝影師︰Anything else? Go ahead。 問︰鍾先生﹐我見你屋企好多同歷史名人影的相啦﹐你可不可以講一下這一幅呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰好。 問︰這個是宋美齡﹐是不是﹖ 鍾僑征︰係。這個是我。 問︰哦﹐這個是你﹖ 鍾僑征︰這個是宋美齡﹐這個是周書楷大使。這個宋子文。 問︰哦﹐宋子文。你是幾時見到她的﹖ 鍾僑征︰一九七二年。 問︰她來New York 是不是﹖ 鍾僑征︰她來 New York﹐醫皮膚病﹐看皮膚的。 問︰哦﹐ok。其實你對宋美齡女士印象如何﹖ 鍾僑征︰這個人呢﹐她相當文雅﹐就可以講得呢是真是代表一國的夫人﹐所以呢她幫助蔣總統呀去出席那些開羅會議呀﹐對外交方面呀她做了很大的努力。好似抗戰的時候呢﹐她來美國向國會演講﹐來到Chatham Square那兒又同僑胞講話﹐所以她風靡全美國呀﹐即是對這個中國一個女人呀能夠那麼偉大出來為自己國家來出力來抵抗日本軍閥呀。 所以大家都非常之專敬她﹐所以她呢真正是一個世界的偉人。 問︰其實今年她過身啦﹐你有沒有直接… 鍾僑征︰她﹐今年呀過左身…我們都有去祭來﹐去教堂哪兒﹐家祭呀﹐我們都去來。 問︰她﹐在華埠都有辦一個… 鍾僑征︰華埠一個天主教堂哪兒有一個追悼﹐追思會。 問︰ok。 問︰鍾先生﹐你去過呀宋美齡女士的屋企呢在上州﹐在uptown是不是﹖ Uptown﹖ 鍾僑征︰Uptown﹐八十幾街哪兒﹐第五大道。 問︰譬如你和她會面時﹐她有沒有透露過對這裡的僑胞有甚麼期望﹖ 鍾僑征︰那時候呢﹐我去到呢當私人的拜會﹐因為那時是有一個葉國斌總領事呀﹐他同她有親戚的。他就話鍾主席︰「我同你一齊去見下夫人啦。」所以我說︰「好呀。」我便同他一同去見夫人。見到夫人呢﹐她…畫那些畫來﹐有些梅花呀、有些畫那些蘭花呀…她畫的花﹐那時她年紀沒有那麼大﹐六七十歲的時候。她話︰「我現在畫花呀﹐點樣﹖」我說畫得好靚好好呀﹐我便講﹐問下那些華僑大家點樣。她講︰「華僑呢對國家貢獻很大﹐抗戰的時候呢出錢出力﹐有些又去投軍。」她對華僑很欣賞﹐所以她有時呢﹐她都話希望那些華僑多返去台灣行下。 問︰你見她的時候是幾時的事﹖ 鍾僑征︰一九七二年﹐就她來接她﹐去飛機場接她返來第二日啦。 問︰ Take a break here? 鍾先生﹐我想問下﹐你可不可以講一下你的家庭生活呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰哦﹐我呢現在目前呢就我同我女人兩個人在這裡﹐老人家。我的仔呢在大陸﹐有一個仔﹐兩個孫。一個…大孫呢去年十二月結婚。所以呢…想做他來的時候呢﹐美國同大陸呢是無交往﹐未有承認大陸呀﹐所以便做不到他來。等到做得他來﹐他自己做生意有事情做他又唔來得﹐現在囉我又年紀老﹐他又點樣呢…所以他都無來。 問︰哦﹐係呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰只有寄錢返來﹐是這樣。 問︰但是你心裡面﹐你會不會覺得其實美國的生活可能會對… [。。。。。。。。。] 問︰鍾先生呀﹐你有幾多個小朋友﹐他們多大呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰我仔呀﹖仔女呀﹐六十幾歲囉。 問︰哦﹐有幾多個﹖ 鍾僑征︰一個。一個仔﹐兩個孫。孫都成二十幾歲囉﹐一個大的今﹐今年結婚呀。 問︰其實他們有無來探過你﹖看過你﹖ 鍾僑征︰無﹐無來過。因為以前呢大陸同美國無交往嘛﹐所以[現]在[中國與美國]有交往他又做生意無時間﹐所以現在都未曾來過。我前年呢返過大陸﹐我同太太返去大陸呀﹐見過他們。 問︰即是他們都在廣東梅縣﹖他做甚麼生意﹖ 鍾僑征︰他做運輸﹐同埋修理廠﹐修理車。 問︰其實你在美國那麼多年呢﹐便成日見不到個仔囉﹐其實你掛不掛住他﹖ 鍾僑征︰通電話啦。 問︰通電話… 鍾僑征︰寫信呀﹐通電話呀﹐這樣囉。 問︰其實﹐因為好多大陸人常常好想移民到美國啦﹐其實你有這個機會﹐其實 即是好奇怪﹐點解你個仔…係你的仔不願意呀﹖還是你覺得都無所謂呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰他想來呀﹐但是他年紀大﹐你來到做甚麼好﹖又來重頭做過﹐又難呀。 問︰那或者他的孫有無想話﹐你的孫會不會想來呢﹖ 鍾僑征︰他會想來。但是問題…問題看看怎樣啦。他一個呢﹐細﹐第二個呢他剛剛大學畢業呀。 問︰其實你對你的家人﹐你的仔女或者孫有甚麼期望﹖ 鍾僑征︰有甚麼期望呀。他…這個嘛﹐他能夠係…顧住自己家庭便得囉。等他在屋…鄉下又可以做事﹐可以做呀嘛。看他點樣先啦。 問︰其實你﹐就算通電話啦你都會不捨得﹐你會不會常常返去大陸呢﹐去看看他們﹖ 鍾僑征︰本來話今年七八月如果有機會返去下。看下先﹐看看我們兩個人腳行得﹐我們兩個人行得不行得先。我們兩個人的腳舊年跌倒。 問︰哦﹐係呀﹖ 鍾僑征︰在孔子大廈樓下跌倒﹐就四月跌倒﹐我在醫院住了一個月。現在我又行又慢﹐她就九月在街﹐即是包里街那兒跌倒。 問︰哦﹐包里街跌倒… 問︰ok﹐stop here。 鍾僑征︰想不到講甚麼。 問︰其實你現在退休啦﹐你現在平時做甚麼﹖ 鍾僑征︰我現在﹐除了去中華公所﹐即是社會上‥來來去去以外呢﹐便在屋企休息陪太太﹐陪太太囉。 鍾太︰八十多歲囉﹐重想去哪兒﹖ 問︰鍾先生﹐我想問一下﹐譬如這裡孔子大廈啦﹐好多人都話要排期呢好難﹐要入來住等好耐﹐是不是﹖ 鍾僑征︰係﹐因為孔子大廈有成二、三千人在 waiting list。 問︰Waiting list? 鍾僑征︰所以好難等﹐好難等到有的。 鍾太﹕等﹐等到第二代。 鍾僑征︰可能等都有的… 問︰譬如通常如果真是要等﹐要等幾耐﹖ 鍾僑征︰有些等成二十年囉。 問︰二十年﹖那﹐即是你覺得現在好幸運囉﹖ 鍾僑征︰不是﹐一開頭便有…因為呢個呢﹐因為中華總商會呢是我中華公所的會員嘛﹐所以我就填表﹐申請當然…要快。無乜講感情囉﹐他通知你…那時大家好多都填了都不要的﹐他話貴﹐那時出面呀五、六十元﹐七、八十元一個柏文嘛﹐我們這裡二百多元銀… 問︰那時已經要二百幾銀﹖ 鍾僑征︰係﹐到現在都是二百幾銀。 問︰哦﹐這個價錢一直都無變﹖ 鍾僑征︰二百五十幾以前﹐二百五十幾。 問︰現在這個價錢… 鍾僑征︰現在二百八十幾﹐升了價。即是加五元﹐有時候。 問︰噢﹐幾十年加少少﹐這樣… 鍾僑征︰這是政府補助的嘛﹐政府補助。所以我們話﹐省、聯邦政府、省政府 、市政府俾錢的嘛。 問︰鍾先生﹐我想問下﹐譬如東百老匯現在發展得好快啦﹐其實當年的東百老匯是怎麼樣的﹖ 鍾僑征︰當年東百老匯都是那些意大利人呀、有些其他人在東百老匯。即是有鋪頭呢都不是好多間﹐那時中國人呀。而就八十年代以後囉﹐七十年代就開始多些囉﹐八十年代就好多已經東百老匯好多滿呀。那些差不多﹐那些樓呀﹐自己買下來啦﹐舊時呀﹐租人家的。 問︰Ok, 鍾先生有沒有東西想補充﹖ 鍾僑征︰差不多啦﹐我都已經記不起來了。 問︰Ok, 好﹐唔緊要﹐唔該晒你先今日。 鍾僑征︰好﹐不用客氣。 [完] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Henry Chung 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Guo Gan Yan Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Florence Ng Chinatown Interview: Date 0000-00-00 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation Waiter Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Mr. Yan, please tell us when is your birthday and your life in China? Yan: I was born on March 18th, 1950 in Guangzhou, China. Q: How was your life in Guangzhou? Yan: I lived there for a few decades. I lived through the Cultural Revolution, a very difficult period. However, we were optimistic and happy. We had many hobbies. We liked sports, entertainment, and played various musical instruments. Q: How was the environment of your home town? How many brothers and sisters do you have? Yan: My father was a sailor when I wan born. He sailed in passenger ships mainly between Hong Kong and Guangzhou. Later, he sold small stationery. Q: How was the living environment? Yan: Guangzhou had many people but few lands. Thus, living spaces were scarce and expensive. We had a family of six. Our parents and four brothers and sisters lived in a 20 sq. meter space. To increase space, we built an attic. The space was sufficient. Q: How was your study? Yan: I studied in a nearby school from elementary to high school because Guangzhou’s schools adopted a zoning system. Q: What did you like to do when you were young? Yan: I was very active. During my elementary studies, I loved playing Ping pong balls and the other sports. In my high school years, I played basketball, swimming, and ice-skating. I also played Chinese and Western musical instruments. Q: China has experienced many political movements, such as the Cultural Revolution. How did they affect your studies? Yan: I ran into Cultural Revolution when I was in the 2nd year of my intermediate school and we had to stop studying. We were seriously affected. I only studied intermediate school for less than 2 years. All schools throughout the nations stop schooling. After the Cultural Revolution, school returned to normal, we had to graduate from high school. We had to leave because the younger students were moving up. Hence, I actually finished one year of intermediate school. Later on, I compensated my study at the workplace. Ha! Ha! Q: What did you do during Cultural Revolution? Yan: When school stopped, we scheduled ourselves a lot of activities: sports, swimming, ice-skating, fishing, and playing cultural musical instruments and western instruments. Q: Did you have a hard time? Yan: Not hard time at all. I was young and relatively active. We played happily. Q: How was your family affected by political unrest? Yan: Cultural Revolution eliminated businessmen and peddlers. My father lost his stationery stores. We lived by renting out public phone, at a few cents per minute. Q: Your father rented out phone lines. What did your mother do? Yan: My mother helped in housework and in selling stationery. Q: What did your siblings do? Yan: My brothers and sisters worked in garment and mechanics industries in Guangzhou city. Q: Describe your life in the factory or being “sent down” to the village. Yan: I wasn’t sent down to the village, because my elder brother was sent to the village in Hainan Island. My parents were too old and sick and I would have to stay to take care of them. Hence, I was assigned a job in a factory. Q: When was that? Yan: I was assigned to a factory in 1969. Q: What did you do in the factory? Yan: I repaired machines. Later on, I was responsible for planning entertainment events and sports, contests and night concerts. Q: What factory was that? Yan: That was called Guangzhou Cement Factory. Now it is called Guangzhou Cement Company Limited. Q: Mr. Yan, you had to work during day time and organized entertainment activities at night time. How did you arrange your schedule? Yan: At first, I used the leisure time after working hour to swim and ice-skate. Then we formally established our own propaganda teams as a political mission. We then took business leave to rehearse, perform and participate in contests. Even though we had privileges to take leave, we worked in one of the 3-shifts in the factory. Sometimes we rehearsed in the morning and worked on night shift. We continue to work as much as we could. Q: What kind of views your close friends and relatives hold when they learnt about you organizing events? Yan: My father was easy going. He let us express our wishes freely. He did not oppose us playing musical instruments. I became a para-professional later on. I organized activities. I assumed the roles of a coach, team member, team leader and back stage coordinator. Q: How long did you work in the cement factory? Yan: I worked for almost 30 years, until I came to the United States. It should be exactly 29 years. Q: In these 29 years, you had to take care of both working and organizing social activities? Yan: In the latter year of my job, I was solely responsible for entertainment and sport. I did it at any time of the day, day or night. I was involved in festivals, parties, inter-factory contests, employee Lunar festivals, and for retirees, family members and kids. We had prize games and simple contests. Q: Of the many activities that you organized, did you have any memorable moment? Yan: From my experience, I was able to organize games according to age characteristics of the participants. If elderly could not move freely, they could not play the games that young people played. At the same time, we had to show respect and not bored them. The ideal games should be simple contests with appropriate prizes. For ladies who dressed up and wore high heels, they could not play ‘musical chair’, nor could they play ‘bursting the balloons’. They should not play games that they get stepped on or could cause tripping. The floors could not be slippery. The ideal games would be guessing riddles and idioms. Q: What kind of games did you organize? Yan: If workers played outdoor, but did not have props yet wanted to play, I took a nylon rope and cut them into a few one-meter pieces. Then, I arranged them into 3 to 4 person teams. The team who tied the longest rope would win. The game was called ‘long strings of love’. It was a simple game. Some games were more complicated and were called ‘walking like a king crab, blocking all the way’. The game was interesting and the name carried moral meanings. I would specify before the game that ‘the contestants will be awarded for blocking the ways at the game tonight. But in real life, we should be modest. The contestants were divided into two teams and were assigned to the two ends of the place. In the middle was a destined line. Each group of 3 to 4 teammates were lined up and tied on the outer ankles by rope and little bamboos. The whistle blew and every one walked sideway towards the middle as fast as possible. People would win if they walk like a crab. At the game that night, they could walk like a crab, but in daily life, they should be modest. Since this happened, I reminded them the morals of the games. Q: Your work provided relaxation to people’s stressful lives. Did it spice up the lives of the grass root workers? Yan: Workers performing boring tasks would repeat the same action over and over again. On the other hand, our bodies need more exercise and stretch our limbs from time to time to maintain a healthy life. If a group of muscles was overused, it will hurt and result in occupational disease. I held sport activities to make our workers healthy, to minimize occupational disease, and to provide leisure and healthy hobbies for workers. Activities such as fishing team and non-Olympic games encouraged people to exercise and be happy. If you organize appropriate contests, people who do not exercise enough would participate. Q: You organize a lot of games. Do you remember some games that gave you the deepest sense of achievement? Yan: Nan Fang Daily in Guangzhou reported my company’s events. Departments of the city government would invite me to chair and organize [events]. They thought my activities were more lively and catered to all age groups, such as evening parties for all seasonal occasions, Lunar festival parties for children, “Respect the elderly” festival for retirees, social dance for employees, karaoke contest and simple events such as flower arrangement contest or even fashion contest for female workers. Sport contests were often held, occasionally we had non-Olympic games. The employees were pleased with it. The employees have different likings and love to have assorted choices, many workers were very satisfied. Once there was a worker who had not joined our activities for decades, because the tickets were limited and they were all taken away by leaders from the management, pioneer workers, superviors and model workers. No tickets were left to the workers. Hence I broke the tradition, on May 1st International Labor Day, no tickets were issued and all the worker could join in. A “South vs. North contest” was held in the hall, with singing. The success of the party relied on interaction between those performed on stage and the audience below the stage. The audience below the stage was usually not so keen, but whenever I organized the “South vs. North contests” , audience from both sides could participate. At the same [I would announce] that if the audience from the northern gate won, the prizes for those both on and below the stage would be much more. That helped make the audience get more involved and promote interaction between them. The cheerleaders of course put in a great deal of effort- this is just some of my experiences. Q: You led a colorful life in China. Why did you come to the United States originally? Yan: It was mainly due to the fact that my brother was in the United States. He applied for us 11 years ago. I did not want to come because I was passionate about my job there and I had assorted hobbies. Later on, it would be better for my children’s education. My friends also persuaded us to come, for the sake of my children’s education. Q: Before you came, what was your impression of New York Chinatown? Yan: I had heard about it. I already knew coming to the States was not to enjoy a luxurious life, life could be a bit boring . [It was because] I had this thinking initially and also because I don’t know English, only a few words. Before I came to the United States, some people already warned me that Chinatown was very dirty. I witnessed it indeed after I came. Q: When did you come to the United States? Yan: In 1999. Q: Where did you live when you came here? Yan: I have been living in Brooklyn ever since. I worked for a restaurant. Q: What kind of restaurant was that? Yan: A restaurant in Chinatown. I never worked in the catering business before and was referred by others. Since I don’t know English, I work in Chinatown. Q: What did you do initially? Yan: I was a busboy. Q: Was United States the same as what you expected? Yan: I knew I had to work hard [in the United States]. I did not want to come because I’m old, and am not able to work hard because I’m stamina is limited. The biggest barrier was not knowing English. Being here is like living in another society, [I’m] not accustomed to many things because of the difference in skin color. Had to find jobs that can do without English. Q: How big was the restaurant? Yan: It was a banquet restaurant which served dim sum and meals. Q: How long you worked? Yan: For almost 4 years. Q: What was your salary? Yan: It was hard to compare. If we earned and used money in the same place, the standard of living would be the same in different places. The basic salary plus tips varied each month. The more banquet orders, the more the tips. Tips earned during the dim sum shift were less. [It happened that I earned] less than $1000 a month, and even $800. On average, $1200. Q: Was the salary enough? Did your wife need to help out? Yan: Definitely. She also worked in a restaurant. Q: Was your restaurant affected by 9/11? Yan: The economy after 9/11 was bad. [The restaurant] was closed for a while, then reopened for a while, then closed for a while, in the end it shut down. Q: When it was closed, did the employer give you any severance pay? How did the company treat its workers? Yan: No severance payment. [Our] wages were still owed. Ha! Ha! Q: After it was closed, the employers fled. What happened to the wages of so many people? Yan: The workers were scattered everywhere, they were owed a few months worth of salary. Q: When you worked in the United States and were mistreated by Chinese employers. How did you feel? Yan: At the time, it would be nice to meet people from my old culture in a different land. So I was deeply [hurt] when I ran into a heartless employer in a foreign land. In fact, in US, the Chinese community is very complicated. Q: Protests were staged at the New Silver Palace restaurant. Did you participate in the protest to fight for your benefits? Yan: We are new immigrants, we did not know the history of this place. I just wanted to look for a job and live a stable life. Ever since 9/11, it was very difficult to find a job. Q: Later on, did you try looking for jobs elsewhere? Yan: People would ask you where you worked before, once they heard it they would ask you to leave a phone number, but there’s [always] no news. A lot of people are unemployed these days . Job hunting is hard, it depends on your age. When they looked at me and asked you to put down the phone number…Unable to master basic English, not knowing a few phrases of simple English, [it was] impossible to find a job. Q: When comparing before and after 9/11, was it harder to find a job[after 9/11]? Yan: Definitely. Many restaurants and garment factories [closed down]. A lot of people were unemployed. Now my wife is the one has a job. Q: Where does your wife work? Yan: In a restaurant, in Brooklyn. Q: What were you doing when 9/11 happened? Yan: When 9/11 happened, I had a day off and rested at home. We didn’t turn on the television, since we don’t know English. It was from long distance phone calls from Hong Kong and Guangzhou which [they] told us not to go out because New York was being attacked, they watached the planes crash. Originally, I planned to take pictures on that day but rescheduled it to Wednesday, September 12th. So I stayed home. After the phone call, I took out my camera and wanted to take photos, but the traffic was already dead. Because of my passion in photography, out of a photographer’s instinct I would capture the breaking [news] events [with my lenses], but I didn’t realize the incident was so serious. Q: When 9/11 happened, did the restaurants stay open? Yan: [They were] shut right away, but not closed down, after a while [they] reopened. When the restaurant shut, I waited for a few months for it to reopen, no income for those few months. Q: Were there any community groups [offering] such as disaster assistance fund? Yan: We did not know English, applied very late. But did apply, such as [benefits from] Red Cross, Safe Horizon. But that was the second year after the events, many months later. Q: Was it because [you] did not know that application were available or were there other reasons? Yan: No, I learnt it from other co-workers. Q: How much was the subsidy? Yan: Safe Horizon [offered] $2500, and there was Red Cross and Food Stamp. Q: Could you make it through? Yan: The restaurant re-opened but the business was sluggish ever since. Later, I got some subsidies, last year I received subsidies to learn English, applying through Safe Horizon. Q: Did you expect the economy could be so bad? Yan: It was beyond my expectation. New York was a tourist city, without tourists, the restaurant industry would collapse and many would close down. Q: When 9/11 happened to the United States, has it changed your impression of the United States? What kind of revelations do you have? Yan: It is beyond my imagination to see such a huge terrorism attack happened within the United States and the degree of terror of the terrorism event. It was out of my mind, unthinkable. Q: Do you still love the United States, the country? Yan: United States itself is very democratic, she may have accumulate some resentment from the Arabic world for favoring one side and make the other side of the Arabic world anger. I don’t know much about politics. Q: After all these years in the United State, do you consider the United States as your home? Yan: My whole family emigrated to the United States, United States is my home. Q: After your arrival, what was your first impression of Chinatown? Yan: When I first arrived in New York. Two main features of my impress - good air quality and orderly traffic, better than that in mainland China. Q: What is your impression of the Chinese community? Yan: Chinese people are faced with serious language barrier in the United States, [at least] in the hearts of local Americans. Used to hear that [the Chinese are] turning into third class citizens in United States, I have mixed feelings [on that] after I came. Part of the big reason is that others see you as third class citizens since you are not doing good enough [to attain] social moral, professional ethics. For example, when boarding the subway, the Americans would [let others] off first then get on, very polite. But when it comes to some Chinese people, they swarmed in that outrages the Americans and leaves an impression that the Chinese are impolite. Besides, spitting on the ground, littering, ignoring the traffic signal are common phenomenon. Before I emigrated, people already say “Chinatown is the dirtiest”, this is a problem with our cultural standard. It affects civil virtue and professional ethics. Q: You organized a lot of activities before, did you utilize your expertise in the United States? Yan: We don’t know English. I am not familiar [with the country]. I don’t get to know a handful of people, no clue [as in how to start]. Q: You led a hard life here. What do you think is the difference of quality of living here? Yan: It is hard to judge the quality of living. [You] enjoy life in China with [whatever that is available to you] , in here, [you can] enjoy [whatever is available to you here]. But since we don’t know English, we cannot enter the mainstream society, no enjoyment, no night life. But Americans [do have it] - the night scene at 42nd Street, Soho area is very lively. Because our and theirs living habits are different, [and we] don’t know English, no night life. Also, we finish work late, unlike the 8-hour shift system in China- [be it] 9am to 5pm or 8am to 4pm. In China, usually [we] have dinner at 6pm, then karaoke after the meal, the cultural life [there] is lot more lively. Q: As you see, what is the main entertainment [here for the Chinese]? Yan: The best entertainment is watching video tapes, renting video tapes is the most popular entertainment. Q: Without exercises, what kind of effects it will have on physical and mental health? Yan: Working for more than ten hours then head home to watch video tapes is not so good. Life is all about moving, with enough exercises it will benefit the body and helps with work [efficiency]. It is because at work, [we often] repeat a certain movement. Sports mean movement for all of the body, balancing all the bones and exercises muscles. [It] Lowers the chance of occupational ailments such as erosion of waist muscles [and] back aches. Q: You worked in the restaurant business before. What are the common occupational ailments there? Yan: That area is not my expertise, but I have heard that in restaurants, [workers] suffer mostly from waist and leg pains. Working more 10 hours [really] hurt the feet of the waiters. Inactivity can lead to the so called waist and leg pains. Q: Mr. Yan, you came with your wife and daughter. How did you get to know your wife? Yan: Referred by someone. Q: What was her occupation? Yan: At that time, she was a “Zhi Qing”, sent down to the country. An educated youth who spent time in rural village. Q: Did she work in the factory or other organization? Yan: Even after the referral by others, she still had to work in the countryside at the time. She returned to the city later and worked in the factory. Q: How long were you married? Yan: We were married for 22 years. Q: When you told your wife that you were coming to the United States, how did she feel? Was she willing to come? Yan: She was not willing to come at all. Q: How did you convince her? Yan: I said that the child could have a better education. My big brother already filed the application for us. My parents [already] passed away, [with] no brothers in Guangzhou. My sister emigrated together [with us], so the siblings all go to the United States together. Q: What does your older brother do in the United States? Yan: My older brother works in the restaurant industry. Yan: Yes. Q: Did he own his business, or …..? Yan: He works [as an employee]. Q: Do you have other job besides? Or your brother found a job for you? Yan: My brother referred me to the job. When there was a vacancy, I was asked to work there. Q: How old is your daughter? Yan: She is 19 years old. Q: Is your daughter studying? Yan: She is in high school. Q: How is her education environment? She grows up in a foreign environment. Does she know Chinese? Yan: Yes, she writes and reads Chinese. I asked her to practice more writing Chinese at home and use English more often to communicate with American students outside home, but she likes to stick with Chineses [here]. Q: Where is she studying? Yan: She [is studying] in Brooklyn. According to the zoning system, the arrangement is called bilingual education, I am not so clear about this. At the beginning, she did not understand certain lessons and the teacher went on and did not care whether she understand or not. As time went on, it actually improved the standard of her English. Q: Do you hope that your child retain her Chinese tradition and at the same time wish her enter the mainstream. How do you manage that, any challenges are faced with? Yan: I want her to communicate more often with American students and raise her English standard. But she likes to stay with Chinese students. The school environment encourages desegregation. People gathered by groups. Chinese stayed with Chinese and did not mingle with western students. Q: Which school is your daughter studying at? Yan: On 86th Street further away from Avenue U. It should be Lafayette High School. Q: Is that the school which had violence incidents recently? Yan: Probably the one. Q: Are you worried? Yan: So I asked her to watch out, leave right away after school, don’t walk alone, and don’t stay for long after school. Harmony is foremost important, if any argument occurs, just don’t bother with trivial matters. On top of that, she is pretty quiet, not very sociable. Q: What is your expectation of her? Yan: I don’t have any expectation of her. She has her own thoughts. She hopes to be an artist, fashion design. I let her decide according to her wishes. Q: A lot of Chinese want their children to become doctors or lawyers. You give her a lot of freedom? Yan: She decides and I give her advice. I will not force my view unto her. Nothing should be forced, the more [you] force them, the more the children will rebel against [you]. For example, a friend of mine who used to learn musical instruments with me is now threatening his son to play violin with a stick if he doesn’t like to play certain instruments. The son does not learn it heartily, [whenever] the stick is there, he can play the whole songm but when his wife teaches the kid, he only played a small section. [The more] the force is, it will only drive him to lie to his parents. Q: The restaurant closed down and owed you wages. Have you ever thought of claiming back the unpaid wages? Yan: We came here and are strangers here. If [we are] being cheated, we may as well let it be. Since a lot of people say so, it is impossible to get it back. We are not the first case, we heard of it happened from time to time. Once the bosses shut down [restaurant] and went bankrupt, even if there were auctions, the priority of loan returns would go to the big debtors first. After a long while, it won’t even reach the workers. Q: How many workers were there in the restaurant? Yan: I did not count, but it should be less than a hundred, with 70 to 80. The dinning area has several dozen people. There were also kitchen, dim sum and dish washing departments. Q: After 9/11, you went through unemployment when the restaurant closed down. Do you think the government or grass root organizations had provided enough help to new immigrants? Yan: The grass root organizations had helped 9/11 victims tremendously with donations. However, we were not proficient in English and we did not understand a lot. We can only hearsay and apply. For some [of the benefits] we have no clue where to start from. I know I may be eligible for food stamp. I just don’t know where to apply. Q: Have you got your green card? Yan: We received our green cards as soon as we arrived in the United State. Q: [You] can travel in and out of the United State. Have you ever gone back to China [to visit]? Yan: Yes, I went back before. Q: When you returned to China, how did your friends and relatives see you? “Oh, you went to the United States!”? Yan: In China, the Chinese nowadays are more familiar with the United States. Many had emigrated to United States and returned. Mainland Chinese people know bits and pieces of the United States, just as I knew about the United States by watching video tapes. Q: Before, it was difficult to come to the United States. Once you arrive in the United States, they think perhaps you have won the lotto, do they envy you? Yan: Some of them. Some people did not want to come even if they were invited. These are the people who are already wealthy. Some people would like to come if they have the chance. Both kinds of people exist. Q: In retrospect, do you think you’ve made a right choice to come, or are you regretting it? Yan: I never regret anything I did, such as my [choice of] profession. The simplest example would be traveling. Some people say they regret traveling to some place because it was not fun. I did not feel that way. I think traveling itself is an enjoyment, don’t moan about it being not fun. The act itself benefits your mind and body. If we travel with this intention, [there will be] not regret. Q: What is your expectation of the future of your America life? Yan: I hope [I can] find a good job but the main [problem] is I don’t know English. Q: How is you English class? Yan: I have, well , finished the course. But we have no basic training [in the first place] and therefore, did not quite get it. I only know how to say greetings and asking for prices when shopping. Q: Does it help at all? Yan: Somewhat. Q: Do you have anything to add? Yan: No. Q: Thank you! Yan: Thank you! (END OF SESSION) Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：嚴先生，可以講一下你的出生日期及大陸的生活？ 嚴：我出生於1950年3月18日，在中國廣州出生。 問：你在廣州的生活如何？ 嚴：在廣州生活，經過幾十年，經過一個困難的時期，文化大革命，但是我們比較樂天派，有多方面的愛好，熱愛體育文藝﹑各種樂器，比較開心。 問：你在家鄉的環境如何？有多少兄弟姐妹？ 嚴：我出生時，我爸爸是行船的，主要來往香港及廣州之間的客輪，後來賣小文具，書簿筆墨。 問：你的居住環境如何？ 嚴：廣州地方寸金尺土，居住的地方不大，父母及四個兄弟姐妹，6人共用20多平方公呎，搭建一個閣樓，算是可以。 問：你以前讀書如何？ 嚴：讀書從小學到中學，在居住地附近讀書，因為廣州按地段分配就讀學校。 問：小時喜歡做什麼？ 嚴：小時好動，小學喜愛打乒乓球及其他運動，中學打藍球﹑游泳﹑滾軸溜冰﹑奏多種樂器﹑中樂﹑西樂都玩。 問：中國經歷多次運動，如文革，對你學習方面有什麼影響？ 嚴：文化大革命時我剛讀初中二，受的影響比較大，因為上初中剛讀了一年多，遇上文革大革命，全國全面停學，到革命完開始復課時，我們已經到畢業年齡了，因為後期升級，我們就要走，真正初中只讀了一年多，後期在單位補讀高中課程。哈哈！ 問：文革時，你做些什麼呢？ 嚴：停課時，我們一味搞體育﹑游泳﹑滾軸溜冰，釣魚﹑奏樂器﹑玩民族樂器及西洋樂器。 問：你沒有苦難的日子？ 嚴：不算苦難的日子，因為那些年齡比較好動。大家都玩得開心。 問：政治的動盪對你家庭有什麼影響？ 嚴：文化大革命取消小商販，父親賣文具店當時取消了，只有租用公用電話維持生計，每分鐘幾分錢。 問：那你爸爸經營電話，媽媽呢？ 嚴：媽媽做家務。賣文具幫手。 問：你的兄弟姐妹後來大概從事什麼職業？ 嚴：兄弟姐妹在廣州做過車衣及機械。 問：講述你入廠或上山下鄉的生活？ 嚴：我沒有上山下鄉，因為當時我哥哥上山下鄉，我父母年紀比較大，有病，兩兄弟中哥哥已去了海南鄉，我家要我留城照顧雙親，分配入廠。 問：那是什麼年份？ 嚴：是1969年分配入廠。 問：在工廠你做什麼工作？ 嚴：搞機器維修。後期負責文娛體育活動，組織比賽，策劃晚會。 問：那是什麼廠？ 嚴：前身叫廣州水泥廠，現在叫廣州水泥有限公司。 問：嚴先生，你白天要上班，晚上搞活動，你是如何分配你的時間？ 嚴：我們初時下班游泳﹑滾軸溜冰，是業餘時間，曾經有宣傳隊，算是政治任務，有公司假排練﹑演出，比賽，不用上班，但在輪三班，不影響工作時，有時返夜班，日間排練，如可以返工，就繼續返工。 問：你身邊的朋友﹑或你的家人，對你負責搞活動，有什麼看法？ 　　我父親一向隨和，一個讓我們自由發揮，不反對我們玩樂器，後期半專業，負責組織策劃﹑由教練﹑隊員﹑領隊﹑後勤工作各方面的都兼顧。 問：在水泥廠做了多久？ 嚴：做到出國，差不多30年，應29年。 問：這29年來，你兩面工作都兼顧，一面工作，一面搞活動？ 嚴：後期，我專職文娛體育工作，沒有計算時間，日夜都做，各大節日聯歡晚會，單位之間的聯歡晚會，職工員工春節園遊晚會﹑供退休工人﹑家屬及孩子，有獎遊戲﹑簡單的比賽。 問：你安排的眾多活動中，有沒有難忘的經驗？ 嚴：經驗最重要是按年齡特點安排遊戲節目，如老人家行動不方便，不能玩後生的遊戲，但亦不能大枯燥，搞敬老節，簡單的比賽，適當的獎品。 晚會女士穿高跟鞋，不能爭座位﹑不能逼爆汽球，不能因高跟鞋而踏傷，也不能讓女士跌倒，不能地滑，反而是安排成語，猜謎語等。 問：你搞什麼類型的遊戲？ 嚴：如出外開會，沒有道具，又要組織，找一段尼龍包裝線，分組競賽，每組3,4人，一米一段，分成數段，遊戲謂「誠心意長」，將繩結得最長者勝出。這是簡單的遊戲。 比較複雜的，搞「橫行霸道」遊戲，題目貼切，寓教於樂，我將會說，今晚的晚會可以橫行霸道，但生活做人不應橫行霸道。遊戲分兩隊，中間有通道，每隊三個四個人排成一字，在外足腳眼在小竹縛腳眼。哨子一響，眾人橫跨步，向中央靠攏，誰先佔中間通道者勝出，此謂「橫行霸道」。在晚會遊戲中可以橫行霸道，但生活做人不應橫行霸道，因為有此現象出現，提醒人們做人的道理。 問：你的工作是調劑人們緊張的生活，是否對基層市民，錦上添花？ 嚴：通常工人做工比較枯燥，工種比較反覆同一動作。身體需要多點活動，多方面的肢體動作，才能支持。如果反覆同一動作，在某方面將會勞損，產生職業病，多開演這一類的活動有益身心健康，對身體有裨益，減少職業病，提高多方面的興趣，好像組織釣魚隊，非奧運體育會，有工作勞動性及趣味性，適當搞比賽，使未受過適當運動的人都可參加。 問：你搞很多項目，有沒有一些你感覺成功感，大家都讚同？ 嚴：在廣州曾經南方日報採訪過公司的活動，市的部門請我去主持及組織策劃。他們認為我搞的活動比較生動，又迎合各種的年齡層次，好像各個節日的晚會，如小孩的春節聯歡晚會，敬老節給退休人士，員工的交誼舞，卡拉ok的比賽，好像簡單如插花比賽，調劑女工的生活。甚至時裝比賽，經常組織體育正式比賽，間中搞非奧運的體育比賽。員工頗為滿意。員工各種愛好不同，有不同的選擇，他們有很多職工比較滿意。 　其中有一個入廠幾十年都未參加過一個晚會，通常因為發票有限，通常中層領導，先進生產者﹑班組長﹑勞動的模範，到工人手上已經沒有票了。我打破傳統，五一國際勞動節不發門票，凡是工人都可參加，在禮台搞個南北擂台賽，有唱歌。成功晚會視乎台上表演和台下觀眾有否溝通。台下觀眾通常不投入，但我舉辦南北擂台，雙方觀眾都可參加，同時抽獎要說明北看台的觀眾勝出，台上及台下的獎品特多。調動觀眾的積極性，使台上台下互相溝通，啦啦隊自然很落力，這是我的一些經驗。 問：其實你在大陸的生活已經多姿多彩，當初為什麼你們來美國生活？ 嚴：主要因為我哥哥在美國，他申請我們，申請11年到期，我當時不想來，因為我熱愛自己的工作，又有多方面的愛好。但後來，想起孩子要來讀書比較好，朋友亦勸我們來，為了孩子的教育就來。 問：你來之前，你對紐約唐人街有什麼印象？ 嚴：都略有所聞。我已經知道來美國是捱世界不是歎世界，生活枯燥點。首先自己有這個想法，因為不懂英文，只懂幾個字。 　　未來美國時，已有人警告我說，唐人街很污糟邋塌，來到以後親身經歷。 問：你是何時來美國？ 嚴：1999年。 問：你來時住在那裡？ 嚴：我來時住布碌崙，之後一直住在布碌崙，在餐館工作。 問：是什麼餐館？ 嚴：在唐人街的餐館。 　　在大陸未曾從事餐館業，別人介紹去做，因為不懂英文，在唐人餐館做。 問：初時是做什麼工作？ 嚴：樓面茶水(busboy) 問：你到來的美國和以前想像的美國是否一樣？ 嚴：我說知道要來捱世界，不想來是因為知道自己年紀大，很難搏，因為體力受限制。而最大的障礙是不懂英文， 來到這裡是另一個社會的生活，各方面都肯定不習慣，因為膚色不同。要找一些不懂英文都會做的工作。 問：你的餐館多大？ 嚴：叫酒樓，有茶市有飯市。 問：有了多久？ 嚴：做了差不多四年？ 問：薪金多少？ 嚴：很難比較，因為在那裡賺錢，在那裡用錢，到處差不多。底薪加花厘，每個月不同，酒席多，花厘多，茶市較少，每月試過不足$1000，甚至800都試過，平均有1200。 問：那薪金足夠嗎？要太太幫手嗎？ 嚴：那肯定要，她也在餐館工作。 問：9/11後你的餐館有沒有影響？ 嚴：911以後經濟一直差，停業了一陣，又開一陣，又停一陣，最後關門。 問：關門時有沒有遣散費？公司如何如置員工？ 嚴：沒有遣散費，人工尚欠。哈哈！ 問：執笠之後，老闆走人。你們多人的工資怎算？ 嚴：工人各散東西，都欠個多月的工薪。 問：你在美國打工，被華人僱主對待，你的感覺如何？ 嚴：當時，原本是他鄉遇故知就更好，他鄉遇無良僱主感觸很深，如果實際在美國，華人社區很是複雜。 問：新銀宮酒樓示威，你有沒有示威，爭取過自己應有福利？ 嚴：我們是新移民，不知道這裡的歷史，本來隨便找一份工作，安穩地生活。可是自從9/11後很難找工。 問：後來你有沒有試過尋找其他工作？ 嚴：別人問你在曽經在那裡工作，聽後叫你留下電話，就沒有消息。現在很多人都失業，找工作難，要看年齡，當時看你樣子，叫你寫下電話，基本的英語一句都不會，連起碼簡單的英文都不懂。根本找不到工作。 問：9/11之前及9/11之後比較，找工是否更困難？ 嚴：肯定，很多餐館及衣廠執笠(關閉)，很多失業。現在我太太一份工。 問：你太太在那裡做工？ 嚴：在餐館做，在布碌崙那面。 問：9/11發生時，你正在做什麼？ 嚴：9/11發生時，我正休息在家，我們沒有開電視，因為不懂英文，反而接到香港及廣州的長途電話，叫不要出街，因為紐約受襲擊，他們看見飛機撞了，本來當天約了同事拍照，後來改在星期三，9月12日，故此留在家中。聽了電話以後，取照相機，想拍照，交通已經癱瘓，因為當時自己愛好攝影，突發事件都叫我本能地拍攝，但不知道後來事件這麼嚴重。 問：9/11發生時，餐館有沒有開店？ 嚴：馬上關門，沒倒閉，關了一陣子重開。酒樓暫時關閉的時候，我幾個月，等開門，那幾個月沒有收入。 問：有沒有民間團體，譬如賑災基金？ 嚴：我們不懂英文，很遲才申請，但申請過，好像紅十字會﹑安全線，當時已經是事發後第二年，是幾個月後的事情。 問：那是因為不知道有得辦，或是其他？ 嚴：不知道，是聽工友講才辦。 問：補助有多少？ 嚴：安全線有$2500，其他紅十字會，糧食券。 問：當時還可以？ 嚴：因為餐館又重來，但以後很淡，後來拿過一些補貼，去年津貼讀書學英文。辦安全線。 問：當時有沒有想過經濟可以這樣差？ 嚴：當時有沒有想過，因為紐約是一個旅遊城市，既沒有遊客，餐館業垮下去，很多甚至關門。 問：美國發生9/11事件，你對美國的印象有沒有改變？對你有什麼啟示？ 嚴：在美國本土出現這麼大的恐怖襲擊，不可思議，又看到恐怖事件的恐怖程度，真的是不可想像，無孔不入。 問：你還喜歡美國這個國家？ 嚴：本身美國很民主，她可能對亞拉伯世界國家的積怨，因為支持某一方面因而得罪另一面亞拉伯世界，政治上的事情我不太懂。 問：來了美國這麼多年，你有沒有當美國是你的家？ 嚴：整家人移民來美國，當美國是我的家。 問：移民來了，你對華埠的第一印象如何？ 嚴：剛來紐約，第一印象有兩大特點，空氣素質很好，交通秩序很好，比大陸好。 問：你對華人社區的看法如何？ 嚴：華人在美國語言障礙很大，在美國本土人心目中，以前聽聞在美國變成三等公民，來到後感觸良多，但別人是否視你為三等公民，是自己做得不好，才是其中一大原因，對社會公德，職業道德。如生活上乘地鐵，老番在地鐵先落後上，很有禮拜，但相當一部份的華人，一窩蜂踴入，使美國人不滿，變了華人沒有禮貌的印象。此外，隨地吐痰，丟棄雜物，不看燈號，這些現象很普遍。我未移民時已有人說，唐人街最污糟，是文化素質的問題，影響到社會公德，職業道德等問題。 問：你以前搞活動，你在美國有沒有運用這方面的專長？ 嚴：我們不懂英文，人生路不熟，不認識幾個人，茫無頭緒。 問：你來到覺得在捱世界，你覺得生活質素有什麼不同？ 嚴：生活質素很難評定，在大陸生活有大陸的享受在大陸生活，在這邊有這邊享受，但是我們不懂英文，不能打入主流社會，就說沒有享受，沒有夜生活。但美國人在42街，蘇豪區，夜市很熱鬧。但因為我們和他們生活習慣不同，不懂英文，沒有這夜生活。而且我們做工下班比較遲，不像大陸的8小時工作制，朝九晚五或朝八晚四，大陸通常六時晚飯，飯後卡拉ok，文娛生活比較豐富， 問：你所見，最大的娛樂？ 嚴：最大的娛樂是看錄影帶，租帶看是最大的樂趣。 問：沒有做運動，對身心的健康有什麼影響？ 嚴：返工做十多點鐘，回家看錄影帶，不太好。因為生命在於運動，如適當運動，對身體有好處，對工作上幫助很大。因為通常工作是重覆某個動作，運動才是全身運動，整個人的骨骼﹑肌肉運動，比較均衡，減少職業病，甚至腰肌勞損，腰腿痛之類。 問：你曾在餐館工作，他們最大的弊病或職業病是什麼？ 嚴：在這方面，我沒有深入研究，但也略有所聞。餐館工作腰骨痛及腳痛最嚴重，如企檯10小時工作對於腳很傷，如不活動就有後患，所謂腰腿痛。 問：嚴先生，你和太太及女兒一起來，你如何認識你太太？ 嚴：在廣州由別人介紹。 問：你那時是什麼職業？ 嚴：那時是知青，上山下鄉，到農村的知識青年。 問：她是廠或什麼機構工作？ 嚴：在別人介糿之下，她那時仍在鄉下，後來回城，入廠工作。 問：你們結婚多久？ 嚴：結婚至今已22年。 問：那當時你說來美國，她覺得怎樣，願不願意來？ 嚴：本身她不想來。 問：那你如何說服她？ 嚴：那我說孩子可以讀書，大哥申請我們，父母又去世了，已經沒有兄弟在廣州，姐姐又一同移民來，都是全家兄弟姐妹一起在美國。 問：你兄長在美國做什麼？ 嚴：我哥哥在美國做餐館工作。 嚴：是的。 問：他是自己開抑或其他？ 嚴：打工。 問：你有沒有做其他事，還是哥哥找工作？ 嚴：哥哥介紹我這份工，有位就叫我去做。 問：你的女兒多大? 嚴：我的女兒19歲。 問：你的女兒讀書? 嚴：她讀高中。 問：你覺得女兒的讀書環境如何？因為她在外地環境長大，她懂中文嗎？ 嚴：懂。她會講會寫中文，我叫她在家多練中文多寫，外出要求和老番學生多溝通，但她喜歡和唐人圈子在一起。 問：她在那裡讀書？ 嚴：她在布碌崙這一邊，當時按區及安排叫雙語教育，我不十分清楚。開始時，她也有些科聽不清楚，不過老師照講，不理會她是否聽明白，時間久了，反而她對英文的能力提高了。 問：你希望你的子女保留中國傳統，同時又希望她融入主流，管教上有什麼心得或困難？ 嚴：我要求她在學校多點和美國學生溝通，提高她的英語水平，但他們華人學生走在一起，學校的環境如是，物以類聚，人以群分，唐人和唐人群在一起，沒有和外國學生在一起。 問：你的女子讀那一間學校？ 嚴：86街過了U大道，應該是拉菲逸高中。 問：那是不是那間傳出暴力事件的高中？ 嚴：應該是。 問：那你不擔心？ 嚴：那我就叫她留意一下，放學就離開，有事不要一個人，不要在學校逗留長時間，萬時以和為貴，萬一有事有爭拗，如小事就算數，加上她的人平時比較安靜，不好交往。 問：你想她怎樣？ 嚴：我不想她做什麼，現在她有自己的想法，她想從事藝術，時裝設計，我隨她心意發展。 問：華人父母不是想她做醫生﹑律師，你對她很自由？ 嚴：她自己選擇，只不過我和她分析一下，這方面的發展及強逼程度，因為不可以強逼，越是強逼孩子越會有反叛心理。如果她不喜歡某種樂器，像我朋友自少和我一起學樂器，現在拿著藤條教兒子小提琴，兒子學得不深刻，有藤條在他可以彈一整段曲，但由太太教小孩時，拉一段就說完成了，強逼反而會欺騙父母。 問：酒樓關門欠你們薪金，現在有沒有想過要索取欠薪？ 嚴：我們來到這裡，人生路不熟，給欺騙了就算，知道追不回來，很多人都說，就這樣算了，也不是我們第一宗受騙，時有所聞，老闆一關門破產就沒有了，就算變賣﹑拍賣也會先還給大債主，很久也不輪到工人。 問：餐館多少人？ 嚴：我沒有統計，但應該沒有一百，也有70至80人，光是樓面幾十人，還有廚房部﹑點心部﹑洗碗部。 問：經過9/11後，你經過失業﹑茶樓關閉，你覺得政府對新移民的幫助或民間團體做得足夠嗎？ 嚴：民間團體對於9/11受害者的捐助或幫助很大，但我們不懂英文，很多不知道，過後聽聞有得辦就去辦，有些辦不到，無從入手，好像現在有糧食券，我也不知如何去辦？ 問：現在你的綠卡已辦了沒有？ 嚴：我們一來美國就有了綠卡。 問：可以出入美國，有沒有回去？ 嚴：有，回去過。 問：你回去的時候，親戚朋友如何看你？噢，你去過美國！ 嚴：國內現時已對美國比較熟悉，很多移民到美也回去過，大陸居民對美國不知一二，也知三四，好像我以前看錄影帶知道美國的部份。 問：以前來美國比較難，如你來美國，他們可能覺得你中了六合彩，他們有沒有羨慕你？ 嚴：都有這些人，但有些人請也不會來，他們已經有錢，一般人都說有機會會來美國，兩者都有可能。 問：回頭看來美國的決定時，你覺得是正確的決定，或是你覺得有點後悔？ 嚴：我從來做事沒有後悔，如職業等，最簡單舉例說旅行，人們說去那裡，說很後悔，沒有好玩的。我不以為然，因為本身旅遊就是一種好享受，就不要怨不好玩，本身旅遊就是身心愉快。抱著這個想法，不會後悔。 問：以後對美國生活的期望？ 嚴：期望找一份好工，但主要不懂英文。 問：你讀英文的情況怎樣？ 嚴：叫做讀完。但我們本身完全沒有基礎。所讀的不三不四，只有問候語，購物問價錢。 問：有沒有幫助？ 嚴：有些少幫助。 問：你有沒有什麼要補充？ 嚴：沒有什麼。 問：多謝你。 嚴：謝謝！ （完） Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Guo Gan Yan 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee S.W. Sang Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-03-10 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation jeweler Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is March 11, 2004. We are at the Museum of Chinese Americans. Please say you name. Sang: My family name is Sang, and my name is Zhuo Huai, S.W. Sang. Q: How long have you been in Chinatown? Sang: I have been here since October of 1969. Q: Where are you from? Sang: I used to live in Macau. In 1966, I went to Dominica in Central America, and in 1969 October, I came to the United States. Q: Were you born in Macau? Sang: No. I was born in China. Q: Where of China? Sang: I was born in Yanping, China. Q: Which year? Sang: 1946. Q: Where in the Mainland were you born? Sang: Yanping Province, China. Q: You went to Macau when you were nine years old. Why? Sang: This is because my whole family has left for Macau. Q: You went from China to Macau? Sang: Since my father was in preparation to move to Venezuela, my family went to Macau. I was studying in Macau. Q: What kind of images and memories do you have for China? You must have remembered much, since you were already nine. Sang: I certainly remember; very much so. The area of Yanping was poor. Many of our villagers went overseas. Going overseas means going out to another country and work. This had more future to it. Because of this, our villagers like to leave the country, for the United States, for Central Americas. Most of them, however, went to Dominican Republic. Q: How did you enter there? Did you sneak in country? Did you apply for entry? Sang: We did not sneak into the country. We first apply as tourists. Once we were in there for six months, we applied for resident status. Q: That’s quite easy. Sang: Yes, it was very easy. Q: When your family was still in China, what was your family business? Sang: My grandfather used to own a factory in China, where he manufactured bricks and various construction materials. However, when the communists came, all of the properties were confiscated. This way, our family was not able to make a living, so we had to leave the country. Q: Why did you go to Southern America? Sang: This was because most of our extended families and friends were there in South America. Santa Domingo, Dominican Republic. Q: You already have a few generations there? Sang: Not a few generations, just from my generation. But my grandfather had gone to Venezuela for almost forty years. Q: When you were nine, you whole family moved to Macau? Sang: Part of the family. My mother, two brothers and I left first. Afterward, my grandmother came with the other two brothers. We were all living in Macau. Q: What about your father? Sang: My father was in Hong Kong involved in the Bakery Business. He made bread at his factory, wholesale and distribute them to places such as coffee shops. Q: This is to say, your father has gone for Hong Kong at an earlier time. Sang: Yes. Q: For how long did you live in Macau? Sang: I lived in Macau for eleven years. Q: In terms of studying, were you there for both Grade School and High School? Sang: Yeah, I went to St. Joseph for both. Q: When you were in Macau, were you studying Chinese or were you studying English? Did you study English? Sang: There were both English and Chinese. Q: Did you study Portuguese? Sang: I understand a little. This is because I understand Spanish, and Portuguese is similar to Spanish. Q: How old were you went you went to - -? Sang: Twenty years old. Q: It was Dominican Republic, wasn’t it? Sang: Yes. Q: How did you feel when you got there? Sang: I was there, apprenticing under an uncle, who did watch repairing work. I was also learning the things related to the Jewelry business. Q: You were in Macau until you were twenty. Did you go to college there? Sang: No. I left not too long after I finished with high school. In Macau, there was no college there. The highest education you could attend was high school. Q: When you were in your teen years, did you think about what kind of career paths you would take when you grow up? Perhaps leaving the country? Sang: My great hope was to become a medical doctor, but there weren’t many chances for me to continue college to become one. But now, I am very fortunate. I couldn’t become a doctor, and became a jeweler. When you are designing and making jewelry, you don’t have to be responsible for people’s lives. If you are a doctor, you are held responsible for lives. So, I feel I am lucky that I did not become a doctor, and that I am doing what I am doing. Q: When you were twenty years old, did you already have family members in South America? Sang: No. All of them were in Macau. Only I went. I went to work for an uncle who was from the same village. Q: When you were there, what kind of works were you doing? Sang: I was involved with watch repair, and the jewelry business. Q: At that time, the place you were, were there much Chinese? Sang: At there, during that time, there were approximately a few thousands people. In our shop there were fifteen people working, some did watch repairing, some did watch selling & buying, and some were involved in the jewelry business. Q: After you went there, did you feel that it was easy and quick to get used to the new way of life? Sang: We were happy. Back then, the brotherly apprentices were always playing football (soccer). Life was good, very good, indeed. The way of life was very different from the lifestyles of Macau, Hong Kong and the United States. Q: How are they different? Sang: In Spanish places, people’s characters are passionate, and very friendly. They do not discriminate against the Chinese. They thought highly of the Chinese, and therefore there is no discrimination. That’s better. Q: You only started learning Spanish once you moved there? Sang: Yes. There were a bunch of us working there. We hired a lawyer. There, we worked in the morning, and at night, once the lawyer got off from his day job, he would then teach us. He collected ten dollars per week per person. We made a blackboard and started learning Spanish. Q: How long did you study for you to understand? Sang: In terms of studying, one can speak after around two years of studying, and approximately three to four years in order to write a little. Q: While you were there, had you always been involved with repairing? Sang: I was working - - repairing watches. Q: During that time, did you ever consider going back to school to become a doctor again? Sang: No. During that time, I had already started in this job, and I could not change anymore. As I continued working, there were pressure and responsibilities. At that time, I did not think about studying. The most important thing was to make a living. During that time, the first thing was to make money. Q: Money can be made in this profession? Sang: Over there, I worked for three years. I already came out and started my own business after three years. I opened my own store, and became my own boss. Q: How many years were you living there on your own? Sang: Three some years. Not quite four years. Q: After you came to the United States? Sang: Yes, I came to the United States. Q: How did you - - Did someone sponsor you over there? Or did you do it your own? Sang: During the time when I came over, I already have colleagues who worked at big factories in the United States. It appeared that those jobs were stable. Also, in our profession, during those times, the pay was quite decent. It was around one hundred twenty, one hundred thirty dollars per week. Q: That was in 1960s? Sang: Back then, when you take a regular job at a restaurant, it would be around seventy-five to a hundred dollar per week. In this case, we made more money. Not to mention, the work was more comfortable, since it was more technical in nature, it was never - - Originally, when I first came over here, my father-in-law was in the restaurant business. He wanted to teach me the business. But when I saw the actual restaurant, wow - - I saw the head chef, while pushing a button with his foot, twisting and turning his body all around. I really felt I would not be able to do that. I like cooking. My mother used to teach me how to cook. I love cooking. But this was too tough. I thought I better stick with what I was dong in the Jewelry business. Q: When you come to the United States, did you also come as a tourist? Or did you apply to come over here? Sang: For the first time, I came over here as tourist. When I came the second time, I also came as a tourist. Afterward, I was working at a workshop that was owned by a Jew. When it was about time, I applied for residency. Q: When you were at the Jewish place, you were also doing repairing work? Sang: Yeah, repairing watches. Q: You came to New York when you first came into the country in 1969? Sang: No. That was 1970, not 1969. It’s exactly 1970. Q: You came to New York when you first came? Sang: I came to New York, when I first came here. Q: Why did you choose to come to New York? The United States is so big. Sang: This was because before when I came to visit, I saw some Chinese supermarkets. I saw that they have everything kind of Chinese food available. That was suitable to the Chinese palate. For me, the most important thing was to be able to eat. In Dominican Republic, those Spanish places, there also were plenty food products. But here, there have every kind of Chinese food products that I care about. For this reason, I came. Q: Did you consider going to San Francisco, other places with Chinese - - Sang: Since many of my friends were in New York, I considered coming to New York. Q: Did you feel it was hard to adjust when you came over here? Winter is very cold here. Many things are different. Were you able to communicate - - Sang: We got used to it, since we were young, and we liked playing football (soccer), and sports - - I am quite active and outgoing, so it was quite easy to adapt to the environment. I did not feel cold at all. Q: When you came over, did you know English? Sang: I knew a little. I understood it when I was studying in Macau. While I was - - When I was studying Spanish at Dominican Republic, I studied the language using English. I learn them together. Q: You were twenty-something when you came over? Sang: Yes. Q: That was quite young. Sang: Yes. Q: What did you do when you first came over? But - - Sang: When I first came over I repaired watches. After working for that westerner for a year, I got residency. After working for about a year, I immediately came out and opened my own business. Along with a friend, I opened my own shop, in Harlem even! You dare not go over there, but the rent was cheap. Back then, it was only one hundred and twenty dollars. I said, “Okay, let’s rent the space out, open up the shop, learn as I do!” I was trying to figure out what the American jewelry market was like. To be honest, when I first opened there, I was not thinking of making profits at the beginning. I wanted to first dive into the profession, observed the market, and figured out the business. Q: During those years, was rent in Chinatown expensive? You had to go to Harlem? Sang: No. Since during those years, I had a bunch of friends living up there. He saw a - - It was because I had a villager-friend opened up a restaurant in front of that space. The restaurant was called “Hua Ting”. He operated that restaurant for twenty some thirty years, and it is now closed. He told me there was retail space right in front of his restaurant, and the rent was cheap. He suggested me to open up the shop up there. He said there were many Spanish people there, and that the Spanish people’s business was the best. I told myself to give it a try. After around a year, my partner and I already made around eighty-thousand, hundred-thousand dollars. Then, we had another partner, and opened another shop at Concord Ave of the Bronx. In this way, I had two shops. After a year and half, we again made around a hundred, two-hundred thousand dollars. At this time, I went to open up a new store at 225 Canal Street, which has remained opened until today. Back then, around 1971, after around a year, I opened up a second shop in Bronx, where my partner was the shop manager. I was the overseeing the shop that was located at 157th Street and Broadway. Alan was looking after the upper shop. After around half a year, I found a retail space, and moved down to Canal Street. That was in 1973. Q: It sounds as if you were very brave. You were only twenty-something. Sang: Is that right? I don’t think so. I certainly - - One must be brave. Being a human, one must be brave. Back then, my next door neighbor was a bank. There was a bank robbery. There were three machine guns at the entrance. I could only run. Three machine guns in Harlem bank! Even the police cars turned around! Q: Is it true that since you were able to speak Spanish, you were able to communicate with those customers - - Sang: Yeah, I was able to communicate. So - - But it was also easier work back then. There was less competition. Not too many people were in the business, and the business was good. Many of my villager-friends, families and friends told me I should never get involved in the business. They told me in the United States that no Chinese were involved in the jewelry business. Q: Before you came to the United States, what kind of impressions did you have? Sang: About the United States. Since I often read history, news and current affairs, I understood that United States was the only country that had a modern society and had the strongest economic development. Also, since the dollar was stable, business was also stable. Especially to us hard worker types, we were certain to become successful. All we needed was a little confidence. Q: Before you came, did you already have a family? Sang: Not yet. Q: When you first came over, what did you think Chinatown was like in 1970s? Sang: Confucius Plaza had not been built yet, during those years in Chinatown. There were many broken, abandoned houses. There were warning signs reminding people to be aware of pickpocket. It was about being careful of people stealing things from you. There were only a few broken down houses around where Confucius Plaza is now. I lived near the side of East Broadway, right next to the post office. Q: During those times, the area definitely was not as large as it is now? Sang: The area was not as big as it is now. Also, back then, the people - - Almost every time I went out, I knew everyone. In other words, when you’re in Chinatown, you knew everyone. Everyone knows everyone else. There were less people during those times. Q: A little more intimate? Sang: A little more intimate, since everyone knew everyone. You knew everyone where you managed your business, and where you hung out. It’s not possible these days. You can’t meet all of them now. Q: After you came to the United States, did you feel that it was difficult? For everything, you had to - - Sang: It had been smooth. It had been very smooth. Q: Why had it been so smooth for you? Sang: It was because I have confidence. I am hard-working and aggressive. Yeah. Q: These things had allow you to conduct your businesses so smoothly? Sang: Right. You’re not incorrect. Q: In which year did you open your store in Chinatown? Sang: It was seventy - - Let me see -- It was 1972. In 1972, I moved down to Chinatown. But in 1971, I already opened one in Bronx. Somewhere in the middle of 1972, I don’t remember quite well of the exact date. In any case, I moved down to Chinatown, and it was 225 Canal Street, right at the corner of Centre Street. Also, I was the first Chinese who rented a space to do Jewelry business. Q: Back then in 1970s, were there many triads in Chinatown? Did you feel a great sense of danger being in this business? Sang: Yeah, I did not feel that at all. Because - - Why? In our business, we certainly had to be careful of entrances and windows. One has to be aware of these things. But it was not that dangerous. Since I was brave enough to open a shop in Harlem, I wouldn’t feel dangerous opening one up on Canal Street. Q: Have you ever experienced a robbery? And let other - - Sang: Yes, many times indeed. People just grab and ran. Or in another case, you’re at gun point, and you could only wait for him to pick and leave. Q: Were your family members ever - - Sang: Yes, they had. Q: But, you still are not scared? Sang: No, I am not scared. I - - When people come robbing me, I told them to just take the things away, and don’t be nervous. I told them the first thing is not to be nervous, just take what they want, and leave. Q: Do you carry guns? Sang: I cannot carry gun. If I was to carry guns, I must have already killed a few times. But I don’t like to react with carry guns. Right now it’s just robbery, right? If I was to carry guns, it would either be him shooting at you, or you shooting at him. That’s not good. In our business, it would be dangerous if you own guns. Q: Back then in early 1970s, even though there were many triads, did you have to contribute to one particular gang - - Sang: No, I have not. Q: - - to protect you? S: The triad society indeed asked for money, but not on our side. In the 1970, although there was instability, it does not mean that they robbed in Chinatown every day. I established Canal Street Jewelry Merchant Association. I was the president and hired six security guards to guard the street. I handled them. These are armed guards. They carried pistols to watch out every block. The robbers went elsewhere but not to us. Q: Are you paying them personally? S: No, they belonged to the Association. Q: Association? S. Every member paid the association three hundred dollars. I am the organizer and the president. I collected the money and paid the guards. I was also the accountant. If the other stores did not pay, I paid for them. Q: As a Chinese, what differences are there between being a Chinese-American in the United States, and in South America? In terms of how an American view the Chinese as to how a Southern American view the Chinese? Sang: I believe, when you interact with people - - If you really are competent or are knowledgeable in certain area, people would not look down on you. Unless you doing some bad things, or behavior - - In this case, not to mention foreigners, even the Chinese would look down upon you. I don’t feel so. I often do not feel that I was discriminated against. For example, when I first opened a jewelry shop, there were a group of Jews that had stores on Canal Street. When they saw a Chinese came opening up a ship, one of them said, “Hey Chinese, you should open doing something else, such as opening a restaurant, or selling food else where. Why did you come getting involved in our businesses?” He first used a discriminatory, make-fun style. But I was very polite and explained to him. I told him, “Long time ago, in Egypt, even before the birth of Christ. The Jews were enslaved by Egyptian kings to build pyramids. When Mosses brought those Jews back to the Middle-east, they had much trouble with the region, and had no where to go. They followed the path of the Silk Road, and entered China in the Tang Dynasty. There were some twenty some thousands Jews entered China. This was the first time us Chinese protected you Jews during your hard times. The second time was during the Second World War, when Hitler was killing the Jews ferociously and cruelly. Did you have a place to run and hide? Only we China accepted you and you settled in Shanghai. During two major hard times, we Chinese have saved you. You cannot discriminate against us. We are your friends.” Q: And then you said - - Sang: - - (the Jew responded) “Hey Chinese, don’t tell us this story anymore.” I said, “If you want to hear more history, I will tell you more.” He said, “in other words, one should not discriminate against others.” Q: This means, you have to use historical logic to argue, in order to - - Sang: That’s not it. If you are intelligent, no one can discriminate you. They dare not look down on you. They would respect you. The most important thing is yourself, right? Q: You came to the United States and opened shops. Did you continue to operate the two shops in Harlem? Sang: Not anymore. I moved the stores from Harlem to Canal Street. Q: How many shops do you have now? Sang: I have three now. My wife took care of the old one. I manage the one located underneath Veteran Association. I also look after the one right next to my wife’s. Q: Where do you live? Now - - Sang: I now live in Astoria, Queens. Q: You haven’t lived in Chinatown for quite a while? Sang: No, I haven’t. I used to live on East Broadway. Yeah. But I moved in 1979. Q: During the time when you were living in Chinatown, did you feel that for many Chinese people who lived in Chinatown, Chinatown was the world to them? They didn’t really go out to other places in New York. It seemed to be a rather small place. Was your life, similar to that? Sang: No, since we like to travel every year to another place. Also, I have a bunch of friends any where I go. Sometimes I go visit my friends. We do not live a closed way of life. Our generations move along the currents and trends of times. In other words, we are not like those old uncles, who never stepped out of Chinatown. They have been in Chinatown for tens of years, yet they stayed in Chinatown mostly, and have not even got on the subway. We are definitely not like that. Q: Back in the 1970s, did you think that the neighbors were united in Chinatown? During those times, they mostly were Toishanese and Cantonese. Was it not as complicated as it is today, wasn’t it? Sang: Generally speaking, eighty percents of the population were Toishanese. Back then, for us Hakainese, our friends were mostly Toishanese. Yeah. Q: Did you feel that the Chinatown back then, was more united than it is today? In other words, it was not as complicated as it is now. Currently, there are more different kinds of people. Sang: I feel that it depends on which aspects you’re talking about. If you say things are complicated, I feel that it is so in terms of different opinions and point of views. It is definitely not so when it comes to an individual, and the relationship between an individual and society. In other words, when you say the situation is complicated, it is only true at your personal level as an individual experience. I do not feel it is true at the societal level. Q: Do you not feel that Chinatown is not untied? The Cantonese, Toishanese, Fujianese - - Sang: Definitely not so. I treat Fujianese, Toishanese, as well as my villagers, all the same. In my heart - - even when I overheard my friends being unfriendly to someone else because they’re Toishanese, or Fujianese, I would explain to them with reasoning, and that they shouldn’t. How can the Chinese discriminate our own kind? I have all kinds of clients, some are Spanish, and some are Africans. I have been treating them equally all along. Q: Perhaps you personally - - Sang: Right. Q: - - is like that. But for plenty of Chinese, we are not united in Chinatown. Therefore, we don’t have power. Because many associations are not unified, everyone has their own opinions. How do you - - Sang: I feel that, compare to what it used to be, I rarely participated those social clubs and community activities. But most recently, at times, a bunch of my friends would invite me to come out and participate. A little more contact. I think for us Chinese, community organizations and clubs such as “family name” associations, are very Chinese. These are invaluable cultures. A group of villagers coming together, and helping each other out when there’s a problem, like borrowing money. Or when there’re issues, family quarrels, there a group to solve the problem. Externally, whether you and another organizations - - in other words, to be together. Of course, when one comes together with another person for a short time, they cannot come along. Of course, when the points of view are different, whether it’s at the business-level, or at the national-level, these views need to be brought out. Everyone should be understanding. Sometimes we argue. No big deal, as long as everyone should come up with something truthful, and work at it together. It ought to be done this way. This is true for both society and nation. I am part of many committees, but I have never fought with anyone. No one ever yelled at me before. I have some many committees, but I could only do it together. The only way is to discuss all different opinions and come to agreement. Q: Ever since you came to the United States, have you considered return to Macau, or visiting for leisure. Sang: Yes. I have gone back for vacation. When I went back, a bunch of classmates, a bunch of friends, and - - Q: But have you thought about moving back to leave? Moving back - - Sang: Definitely not. My children grew up here, studied here. You see - - family is most important. My business is also here, so I wound not - - Q: If this is the case, it seems that the business of your stores is quite successful, isn’t it? Sang: I feel that I am quite satisfied when I can support my family. Because for all of us, the most important thing is to feel satisfied. Also we need to have confidence. We live in this way, in order to - - Q: Now we’re back in time, during 9/11. Sang: Right. Q: The year during the 9/11 incident, were you in Chinatown? Sang: Yes, I was in Chinatown. I was on my way to work - - Q: Do you remember - - Sang: My car was at Delancey, when the first airplane hit there. I thought it was a fire accident. I was still at Delancey and Bowery, right at the corner, and saw smoke coming out of the windows. Q: Afterward, how did it affect your business? Sang: Right after 9/11 happened, we were closed for three days, because the smoke - -those smoke have covered all of Chinatown. The air was not comfortable. Also, I felt the air was still very uncomfortable. In other words, when you breathed the air, it was very filthy. That’s why we did not go back, and remained unopened for three days. Q: During those three days, was there any burglary? Did anyone cause any problems? Sang: Definitely not. That time everyone knew what had happened, since telecommunications was so advanced in the United States. In everyone minds, they were asking questions such as how do you we protect this country, and were thinking how best to protect this country. I don’t believe in those things happening, and there definitely no burglary. I feel that New York has improved, and the quality of people has improved. Q: Was your business affected, I mean, after the 3 days closing down? Sang: Of course, the aftermath was immense. A lot of my customers came from World Trade Center, such as staff from Merrill Lynch, Lehman Brothers. They used to skip their lunch and came to us for our watches, and wedding bands. Now they all moved elsewhere and never return to us. Q: Do you mean a lot of your customers were not from Chinatown but a lot of them from Wall Street? Sang: That’s right. Q: American besides Wall Street came to you also? Sang: Yes. Q. About how much was the business loss? Sang: From time to time, shortly after 9/11, only thirty percents of business was retained. Then, business increased gradually. Up to now, we are still twenty five and thirty percents behind. Q: Did you apply for 9/11 assistance? S: I did not apply directly. One time, they mailed us a form to subsidize rent. I filled it out and I received four thousand dollars at one time and three thousand dollars another time. Approximately, I received seven thousand dollars. Q: Did your rent increase in recent years? Sang: The rent increased gradually? Q: 9/11 did not affect the scope of increase? Sang: We have to pay in accordance to a signed lease that agreed to have rent increase at interval. Because of 9/11, the landlord waived us one month’s rent. Q: But I feel that when I walk around in Chinatown, it seems that there are less gold shops as before, isn’t it? Sang: No. It has been the same. Not less. There shouldn’t be less. Q: Compare to in the past - - Sang: Yeah, approximately the same. Q: - - approximately the same to before 9/11? Sang: Right. Q: Do you feel that there are less Chinese customers? Because during these few years, economy has become much worst, perhaps when people do buy gold and watches, they don’t spend as much money as before. Not spending as much - - Sang: When you compare it to the past, according to my understating, with regard to the market - - Since nowadays, the Americans has [END OF SIDE ONE; BEGIN SIDE TWO] experienced a phenomenon and their understanding have increased. The knowledge of economics has also deepened. It’s interesting. When there’s opportunity in the stock market, everyone rushed to buy stocks. But ever since the burst of the internet (bubble), everyone feels that once it becomes unstable, you lost all your money. They now buy houses. They buy their first house to live in. They buy their second one for investment purpose. Should you have a son getting married, then you buy another one. If each family has from one to three mortgages, and contributes money to these mortgages, their cash flows are locked completely by these mortgages. Our economy is like this. For example, if you’re selling a house to me, or I sell one to you, after we have signed the papers, the money is turned around back to the banking systems. That’s why the bank would overflow with money, yet there would be no cash flows in the market. This is the reason why a lot of retail businesses would be down. I used to have a group of young friends who worked in Merrill Lynch. They came to me, and buy watches from me. I conversed with them. I have quite an understanding in financial matters. I like to have conversations with young people, and I like to talk about how to observe the market, and how the economy goes. We talked very often, so I see it quite clearly. Q: During the thirty some years you were in Chinatown, which period was best for you? When you business did most well - - Sang: The best time was the seven years between 1983 and 1990. During those seven years, it was the best for the jewelry and retail businesses. All retail businesses were doing extremely well. Q: - - How is your opinion when it comes to the affects 9/11 has on Chinatown? Do you feel that the community has become more united ever since this incident? Or do you feel that it is the same as before? Sang: After 9/11, we all felt that it was a time that we should unite. Many restaurants lost businesses; some lost thirty percents, while some lost seventy percents. Under such circumstances, during such difficult time, we all hoped to find a way where we could work together. In other word, we all work together, and find a way to turn Chinatown into a better place, and especially in the area of cleaning it up. We wish we could build up Chinatown a little more. Q: On your business card, I saw that you have joined a lot of different organizations, some are - - Sang: Right. Q: You are chairmen, presidents, members of many organizations. While numerous agencies co-exist in a small Chinatown, do you think that they communicate with each other. Or jewelry association communicates only with jewelry stores. Restaurant association communicates only with restaurants. Do they communicate with each other? Sang: I wish to share my experience of Chinatown with the community. Members of the associations should work as a group and share a common goal. We Chinese used to lead our lives in a closed system, so we are still primitive. A simple example would be, once I went to a banquet hosted by the Consulate General of China. Thirty guests sat together. Twelve different languages were spoken. One of my friends asked why there are so many dialects in China. Why are there over 10 dialects in one Guangdong Province? My answer was simple. China was a closed agricultural society. My villagers would not come to your village. If you lost a pig, you would suspect that I stole it and ate it. Or you lost a cow and would say the people in the neighbor village stole it. The villages quarreled with each other and would not trust each other. So we spoke our language in a way that liberally confused you. At the same token, we did not understand your language. The closed system resulted in primitive livings for thousands of years. We should open ourselves and communicate with other, so that you may learn more. Even though you may not like it, you learn from it. Q: Do you mean that these traditions were brought from Mainland China to Chinatown. Both groups act similarly. Sang: These practices are not correct. We are should communicate a little more, and try to understand a little more. We should do different things with friends from different groups and different levels. In this way, you will increase your talents, which is knowledge. There are many things that you cannot learn from books. You have to have people contacts and communicate. Q: What do you think a regular foreigner’s views of Chinatown? When one first think of Chinatown, what would be the first thought? Sing: Firstly, they would want to know the Chinese’s way of life. But once they came into Chinatown, they will be many things are different. The Chinese eats different kind of food, and use different kind of things. So are gift shops and culture. But they already know that there are many things that are worth while for them to learn. Most simply, around twenty, thirty years ago, I had an accountant called Mr. Lee, Mr. Sum-Chi Lee. He was in the accounting business, and did tax related work on Canal Street. There was “Wang An” Computer. Wang An was a top-notch computer engineer. He knew how to make computer at the theoretical level, but he was unable to apply and materialized mechanically. He came to Mr. Lee’s place and saw an old man using an abacus. He came to an instant understanding. He realized that he could now make computer, which was to design the arrangement of electric circuits as it would be for an abacus, with numbers moving both horizontally and vertically. This was where modern day electric circuit design came from. Many people did not know that the functioning of computer was made possible by the Chinese Abacus. Q: This is to say - - Sang: Without Chinese abacus, it would have been impossible to turn computer into real machine. Q: When it comes to the images a foreigner has about Chinatown, you think that they feel that there are many worthwhile things to learn? Isn’t it? Sang: Right. There are some who know that Chinese food is most rich and diverse in the world. That is why Jin Wang Kwan won in the French Chef Competition three times in a role. In other words, it would be impossible for the world to catch up to the high level of Chinese cuisine arts. Q: Even though there are much Chinese people in New York, yet politically speaking, our power is still very limited, since many Chinese do not vote. When it comes to you and your family, do you participate - - Sang: I have been encouraging my friends and my children. I make them vote, it’s a must. It is us citizens’ responsibility. Secondly, whatever things that we wish to do in Chinatown, we must have votes as background. In this way, our voice is louder. If we have city government support, and have their understating, they would pay more attention to this community. Similar to the “Chinese Club” in the past two years, they were very open, and often times host speeches and receptions for state governors. If we maintain constant communications with them, we will be able to ask them directly whenever we need something from them. They would give us a little more attention. We have to do it this way. Whether it’s a successful effort is a different matter. But our attitudes toward the community should be this way. Q: You have been living in the United States for some thirty years. Do you feel that you are a Chinese living in the United States? Or are you already a Chinese-American? Sang: I am definitely a Chinese-American. I have already gained citizenship, right? But I would not deny the Chinese culture that I have internalized. I have a better understanding of Chinese culture, so my interests are also more Chinese. Q: According to you, what do you think are the biggest issues in Chinatown now? Sang: When it comes to the biggest issues, I think the first one is transportation. Second one would be sanitary problem. The third issue would be economics. Our economy is under threat ever since we lost the clothing factories. Those women, who used to work in those factories, now have to adapt and take new professions such as health care. This transformation has to be gradual. Other than transformation, the Chinatown business model also has to change into more tourism focused, more tourists-oriented, besides the traditional sales technique to attract middle aged women. We should provide products that fit the American markets, while attracting tourists with high consuming power to spend money here. In other word, we need to turn Chinatown into a cultural and tourist center. For our economic survival, we have to build Chinatown up in this direction. We should employ a liberal approach. We cannot act the way we used to, thinking and satisfying on the limited businesses that the clothing factories provided. The old way how bosses could go to Atlantic City and spend tens of thousands on the gambling tables, is not possible nowadays. We have to treat our community more seriously, while pushing for its transformation. That’s why I joined Rebuild Chinatown Association - - Q: You mean NYC Promotion & Tourism Association, right? Sang: Yeah, that one. Q: NYC Promotion & Tourism Association existed even before the 9/11 incident. We hope to spread whatever news we have of Chinatown. We want the media to promote for us, and let them understand Chinatown, and understand Chinese cultures. Quite interesting - - One time we were hosting a group of media, including journalists from New York, and a woman form the state department. She was the head in promoting ethnic culture. I forgot her name. When she came, we brought her around Chinatown for a grand tour, and brought her to Chinatown for dim sum. We went to Good Harmony Restaurant for Dim sum. She asked, “It is now eight thirty, why there are so many people here for breakfast? Is it because they did not have dinner last night?” I told her not. I said for the Chinese, the most important thing after you get up is to “Yum Cha”. “Yum Cha” is an old habit of Chinese that date back to thousands of years. When it comes to “Yum Cha”, you can see that over there is a group of older men reading a paper together. They would discuss the current events of the day, whether it’s political or politics, all is discussed here. You can also see other tables, where there are children. They are families. They could be discussing family affairs, or it could also be someone’s birthday today. And the table next to it, you can see a bunch of business people, with their business suits. It’s possible that if a man owns another, money, and he would be invited to “Yum Cha” the next say. Then, you will have to remember to bring five hundred dollar to return to the lender. Here, you do business, family meeting, business meeting, as well as community leaders discussing community affairs are all here. That’s why for us Chinese, we don’t have to pay to go to those psychologists, those psychiatrists. We all get heal here. Whatever problems that we have, you come out, talk to a friend and you are cured. The psychologists know nothing about your personal life. But your friends understand you, and they can solve your problem. So I feel that in the western world, this kind of culture does not exist. “Oh, you guys are real smart!” (Said the woman representative) Whenever we have problems about business, we just need to invite them out. Whatever that’s not right, you discuss here until all is right. Why engage in meeting? You have to meeting this and meeting that. Here, we agree on everything. When we eat and discuss enthusiastically, it’s easier to smooth things down, and less arguments. If I talk business to you, should there be anything wrong, I would not slam the table and start yelling. The westerners would slam tables and start yelling whenever there’s something wrong during meeting. We can’t do that because we have tables around us. It would not be good if other people see us. The most we could do was to yell quietly. She said, “I have never heard anything like this!” I replied, “That’s why I am telling you now. If you want to write a book, a novel - - if you wish to learn the traditional Chinese cultures, and values – In other words, many people are not familiar this kind of lifestyles, but if you’re sensitive, you may gradually come to an understanding. You will be able to write them down as content for your novel.” Q: Previously I asked you, what the biggest issues are in Chinatown. During this project, I also have spoken with a number of neighbors. It seems like they are either of; transportation, sanitary, rents, and housing issues. - - Right. Sang: These things are very important. Q: Even though everyone knows what the problems are. But how come after ten, twenty years, the problems are still to be solved? Why is Chinatown still dirty, still so cramped? Sang: But I feel that - - Let us begin with the housing issue. I remember those days in the seventies, when the Confucius Plaza was being built. There were many vacant apartments, which took quite a while to be rented out. Not too many people applied for them. Gradually, there were more immigrants, but at the same times, many Jews moved away in the East side, while the Italians were also moving out of Little Italy. But right now, it is completely full. That is why housing is such a problem. Even if there were space now, it would be very expensive. A Square feet of space would cost around a few hundred dollars, but it would still be bought to build houses. These houses could be sold for at least six, seven hundred dollars per square feet. Population density has increased, city’s value has increased, but when it comes to sanitation - - That is why there exists an organization called Clean Chinatown Campaign. Ever since Bill Lam and Danny Lee organized this club, I have been supporting them every way I can, such as soliciting members and others to donate money. I have been quite passionate with my effort, they all know that. Compare to a decade ago, there has been a great improvement since ten years ago. Chinatown is much cleaner now, don’t you think? But it’s not as perfect as - - Q: Midtown. Sang: Right, as Midtown or Park Avenue. This is because they do not have as many people and tourists. Also, the density of traffic is also not as high as here. Like when it’s Saturday and Sunday, there are ten to twenty thousands people rushing into here, and turn it into - - When there are more people, then inevitably it’d be dirtier. That is the reason why we have been educating people, and tell them not to throw trash on the street. Most simply, for example, there was this one time, I was on the street. I saw a woman threw a paper bag on the street. Next to this woman was her friend which I knew personally. This mutual friend saw me, and said to her friend, ‘People are promoting clean Chinatown, why don’t you pick up the trash?’ In other words, it is important to educate people and let them know it’s important to keep streets clean. That is why in the future, we will record a Sang about how cleaning is everyone’s responsibility. We are trying to see whether we could get Jackie Chan to sing it, and broadcast it publicly, and remind people not to carelessly throw trash on the street. We still have to hire people to clean the streets, and change those trash bags. Chinatown is much better than before. Back in those days, those garbage treatment companies did not care at all. I later discovered the reason why Chinatown smelled so bad. It was because those garbage collection trucks, first collected wet, dampened trash, and after they pressed them, the liquid would overflow all over. That was the reason why it smelled bad. I went and spoke with different officers and representatives at those companies, and told them to change their schedule. I told them they should collect wet trash at the end of their schedule. In this case, those liquids would not be overflowing all over Chinatown, and the bad smell has at least decreased by fifty percents. We have to pay attention to clean, and be aware to where dirtiness comes from. But we are unable to - - Since a lot of people come here, and the fish markets are located in the central area, it would be impossible to do a perfect job, but we could try our best. To be perfectly clean means no one could come, which is worst than being dirty. Q: It seems that you not only do business in Chinatown, but you also spend a lot of times doing community services. Sang: Yeah. Q: - - Your children, do they have the same thoughts? Sang: They study. My son is studying at Tufts. He already graduated from Northwestern University, and worked for two years. After he got his master degree, he wanted to go for his Ph.D. He told me that it’s free of charge. I told him to go for it. He studies philosophy. Q: And you - - Sang: I would not force them. If the next generation has the interests, than of course are their choices. Q: - - never pressured them to be in your profession? Sang: No. Absolutely not. Q: The future of your business ……? Sang: My sister and brother, they each has one shop. So, if I did not pass them to my children, I could pass them to my siblings. I would never do that. My father used to be in the bakery business. In summer times, he asked me to help him at his bakery. We bought flour and sugar for three hundred dollars, and at night we could collect three to four- thousand dollars. It was very profitable, would you be interested? I said, “But I have no interest, I still prefer the watches”. Q: In other words, you do not pressure your children? Sang: No. Q: - - what do they do? Sang: It’s quite interesting. My eldest daughter, graduated from Swarthmore University. She likes arts. She is now working at the Education Department of Metropolitan Museum. My youngest one is studying at Haverford College, in Pennsylvania. She is now in Spain doing a study abroad program, and won’t come back until June. I told her, saying that since your brother wouldn’t help me, and your sister went to work at the Metropolitan Museum, you are my last hope. Will you help out with the family business? Guess what she told me? She said, “Daddy, you are talking about your own dream, you’re not talking about my dream”. You’re talking about your own dream. You’re not talking about my dream. It’s difficult, since we have different dreams. Q: It has been over two years since 9/11. Do you feel that it has become as lively as it was before 911, and that the business has normalized? Sang: The business in Chinatown is still quite quiet. It cannot be said that it is as lively as it was before. Other than the effects of 9/11, there is also the influence of the American Economy, where the real estate market has locked up all the cash flow. This is true to all businesses in the United States. You remember those times when the Hong Kong real estates market was speculated by the real estate companies. They want to push all the poor people back to their hometowns, in China. Even though they are all economists in Hong Kong, but what they did was wrong. If there are only a few rich people in Hong Kong, and have no one to consume in the markets, no one to cook for you, how can you open up restaurants? No one to make coffee for you, then you will not have coffee to drink. You life would be abnormal. You have to - - About the survival in a social environment - - I wrote a letter to the head of LMDC, John Whitehead. I said, “For New York to survive, the small businesses must also survive, in order for the big businesses to survive”. Just like our planet’s environment, if there lack a grass root level to absorb all the water, it would become a desert, and big trees would not be able to grow. There must be much grass, before the trees grow. All across the world, when there’s no grass, there’re no trees. You must have grass field to absorb the water, in order for the big tree to grow. I told him to pay attention not just to the bigger companies such as those in II World Trade Center, but also to small businesses. If there were only big trees, while the small businesses are bad - - If it’s a desert surrounding a tree, that tree would surely have no leaves. It will die. I told him that this is economics. I realize that for New York, seventy percents of company taxes come from small businesses, while big businesses only contribute around thirty percents. They called it Small Business Investigation. Q: Great. We talked about many different things today. Is there anything else you would like us to know? Is there anything that I have not already asked? Is there anything you want to share with us? Sang: I don’t have any other ideas. But the most important thing is to promote Chinatown and Chinese culture to everyone in the United States. We should make them interested in coming here to learn our Chinese cultures, whether it’s about the food, gifts, or the jewelry market. Around the world, there is no jewelry markets that can be compare to what we have here. On forty-seven street, they only sell American styles. But here, we sell the Chinese styles, European styles, and American styles. All international styles can be found in Chinatown. No where else has there a market that is stronger and better than ours. I wish people would come and purchase from us, and bring more business to us. Q: You are confidence that in the future, the business will pick up? It will - - Sang: Yes, It will. Once the interest rate increased, the property market will cool off. Once the property market cools off, the cash flow will not be locked dead, and the retail business will improve. Just like those days when they speculated in the property market in Hong Kong. There was a lack of businesses, and all went dead. Everyone use their money to pay mortgage, while the banks were soaking up all the money. When you had to store less than a million dollars at the banks in Hong Kong, you had to pay storage fee to the bank. They did not even give you interests. They had too much money. They were speculating the property market. It just like when you’re on an airplane. If you have all your weights on one side, it’s dangerous. It’s dangerous for the economy. Q: Okay. Thank you for your time… Sang: Well said. Q: to chat with us. I wish you lots of good Luck. Sang: Yeah, thank you. (End of session) Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕今天是三月十一號2004年，我們在華人博物館，請你講你的名字。 岑﹕我姓岑，叫灼槐，岑灼槐。 問﹕你已經在唐人街多少年了﹖ 岑﹕一九六九年十月已經來到美國。 問﹕以前你從那裡來的﹖ 岑﹕我以前在澳門住。一九六六年，多明尼加，中美洲多明尼加，後來再在一九六九年十月到美國。 問﹕你在澳門出生的﹖ 岑﹕不是，我是在大陸出世的。 問﹕在大陸那裡﹖ 岑﹕在大陸恩平出世的。 問﹕在那一年﹖ 岑﹕四六年。 問﹕在大陸那裡出生﹖ 岑﹕在大陸恩平縣。 問﹕九歲時候就到了澳門，為什麼﹖ 岑﹕因為我們全家都搬到了澳門。 Q﹕為什麼你從中國去澳門﹖ 岑﹕因為我爸爸，他們準備去委內瑞拉，那麼我們全家出了澳門，我在澳門讀書。 問﹕那麼，你對中國有什麼印象呢﹖九歲倒應該記得很多事情吧。 岑﹕當然啦，記得好多啦。我地恩平啦就的地方就好窮的。我們同鄉的人呢都是個個出外洋的，出外洋呢，就是出去第二個國家，然後工作，比較有前途的，因為這樣，所以我們鄉下裡的人都很喜歡出國，去美國啦，去中南美洲，恩平人去多明尼加，最多。 問﹕是怎樣去的呢﹖是偷渡﹖還是申請去的呢﹖ 岑﹕不是偷渡的，我們是申請去旅遊，入到去之後六個月後，可以拿到居留。 問﹕挺容易的嗎﹖ 岑﹕是，以前是非常之容易的。 問﹕那麼你以前家裡人是做什麼的呢﹖在大陸的時候﹖ 岑﹕我祖父以前在大陸做工廠的，做磚瓦，就是製造建築材料的工廠，但是後來，共產黨來了之後，所有財產被沒收了，這就變了我們家族沒有法子謀生活，所以就要出國了。 問﹕為什麼會到了南美洲呢﹖ 岑﹕因為我們以前鄉親全部，多半也是到了南美洲，多明尼加，SANTA DOMINGO 。 問﹕你已經有幾代在那裡啊﹖ 岑﹕沒有幾代，由我這代才開始，但是我爺爺去VENEZUELA(委內瑞拉)，去委內瑞拉差不多四十年啦。 問﹕那麼，你九歲那年，你全家去了澳門？ 岑﹕一部分，我和我媽媽和兩個弟弟，後來，就我祖母和另外兩個弟弟都出來，全家都在澳門住。 問﹕你爸爸呢﹖ 岑﹕我爸爸在香港是做麵包的。也就是在BAKERY(麵包店)那些，弄一些BREAD(麵包)，發給人家的，是工廠，也就是賣給那些COFFEE SHOP(咖啡店)。 問﹕也就是說你爸爸早就去了香港啦﹖ 岑﹕是。 問﹕那麼，你在澳門住了多久了﹖ 岑﹕在澳門住了十一年了。 問﹕那麼你讀書，小學中學也是在那裡﹖ 岑﹕我也是在聖約瑟讀中學。 問﹕那麼那時候在澳門讀中文﹖還是讀英文﹖讀英文-- 岑﹕有中文有英文。 問﹕-- 你有沒有學PORTUGESE(葡萄牙文)﹖ 岑﹕我認識一點啊，因為我懂西班牙語，PORTUGESE跟西班牙語好相近。 問﹕你是幾歲時候就去了-- 岑﹕二十歲啊。 問﹕二十歲才去DOMINICAN REPUBLIC(多明尼加共和國)是不是﹖ 岑﹕是。 問﹕那麼，你到了那裡，感覺是如何﹖在那裡？ 岑﹕我在那裡跟了一個UNCLE(叔叔)做WATCH REPAIR，也就是修理手錶，JEWELRY的東西，也就是首飾，跟他學。 問﹕你在澳門到二十歲，已經讀大學了嗎﹖ 岑﹕不是啊。我在讀中學沒多久就去了，我們澳門那個地方是沒有大學讀的，也就是到最高也只有有高中。 問﹕你在十多歲的時候，有沒有想過以後成長，長大，時會有什麼樣的事業呢﹖出國之類﹖ 岑﹕我最大的願望是做醫生，但是不太有機會繼續讀大學做醫生，但是現在我很幸運，我自己做不了醫生，就做了一個JEWELER(首飾師傅)。也就是，因為設計首飾，做首飾啊是無須要對生命負責任。做醫生呢。對生命有責任，要負責。所以我覺得我真好沒做醫生，我做回自己的工。 問﹕那麼，你二十歲的時候，在南美洲已經有家人嗎﹖ 岑﹕不是，我的家人都在澳門，只是我一個人去了。到了和同鄉的UNCLE(叔伯)那裡去做工。 問﹕那麼，你在那裡，做一些什麼樣的事﹖ 岑﹕是做修理手錶啊。做JEWELRY(珠寶)啊。 問﹕那個時候，你住的地方，多不多華人啊﹖ 岑﹕啊，我們那裡，那時候，差不多有幾千人。我們鋪頭做工有十多人，我們的鋪頭有十五人做工，做修理手錶啊，做買賣那些錶啊，還有JEWELRY那些東西。 問﹕那麼你過了去，覺不覺得容易好快就習慣了那邊的生活﹖ 岑﹕我們好開心啊，那時候，師兄弟，常打球，生活好開心，非常之開心啊。也就是生活的方式跟澳門﹑香港﹑美國完全不同的。 問﹕是怎樣不同呢﹖ 岑﹕在西班牙地方呢，人們性格好熱情的，還有好FRIENDLY(友善)的，對那些中國人沒有歧視的。覺得那些中國人呢，高人一等的，也就是沒有歧視你們中國人啊，好少這情況。 問﹕你是過到去才開始學西班牙文的﹖ 岑﹕是。那時候我們，在那裡做工，一班人。我們請了一個律師，在那裡做工，不是，也就是我們早上做工，晚上律師下班後就教我們，收我們每人，一個人，一個星期十元，於是我們做了黑板學西班牙文。 問﹕那麼你讀多久就已經明白呢﹖ 岑﹕讀，通常來講呢，讀了兩年就可以普通可以講，大約三，四年就可以寫一點。 問﹕那麼你在那裡，一路是做修理--？ 岑﹕一路也是做工，修理手錶。 問﹕那麼你在那時候，有沒有想過繼續讀書，再做醫生呢﹖ 岑﹕沒有，那時候我們已經做了這個行業，已經不能改變，工作的PRESSURE(壓力)和責任，一路一路的做下去。那時後，沒想到，沒想到讀書，最重要的是掙得錢，那時候，首先掙錢。 問﹕那麼，做這職業，是能掙錢的﹖ 岑﹕做，做了三年呢，在那邊做了三年，就已經自己開出來了，開了舖子，也就是自己做老闆。 問﹕你一共在那裡住了多少年了﹖ 岑﹕住了三年多，沒到四年。 問﹕就來美國了﹖ 岑﹕是來美國。 問﹕那麼你是怎樣，有人擔保你過來嗎﹖還是你自己﹖ 岑﹕因為我過來的時候，已經有師兄弟，已經在美國，大的廠裡面做。之後見到那些工作安定，而且做我們這個職業，那時候，工資還好，都有一百二十元，一百三十元一個星期。 問﹕那是1960年代？ 岑﹕以前普通餐廳，去餐館普通打工，七十五，一百銀。這樣的話，我們多一些。而且工作比較舒服，就是做技術性的工作，就沒有--，原本我過來這裡的時候，我的外父呢做餐館， 想教我做餐館。但是我見到餐館的時候，哇﹗我去見到做廚師呢，一腳頂一個按鈕，全身擺動，這樣我真的不能啊。我是好喜歡煮餐的。我以前媽媽教我煮餐，我好喜歡煮餐！但是，我見到這樣辛苦是挨不了，我還是做回自己珠寶那個行業。 問﹕那麼你過來美國，也是一個遊客這樣過來啊﹖還是申請過來﹖ 岑﹕第一次過來是遊客，第二次過來也是遊客，後來我在猶太那個，一個工廠那裡做。差不多時候便申請居留。 問﹕在猶太也是做修理的﹖ 岑﹕修理手錶，YEAH(是的)。 問﹕那麼你69年，一來就來紐約嗎﹖ 岑﹕不是啊，那時應該是70年，不是69，是70年才是。EXACTLY(正確是)。 問﹕那麼你一來就來紐約嗎﹖ 岑﹕一來就來到紐約啊。 問﹕你為甚麼選紐約呢﹖美國那麼大﹖ 岑﹕因為我以前來旅行，我見到有中國的SUPERMARKET(超級市場)，見到有我們中國的食物什麼也有。是適合我們中國人口味，因為我第一最緊要，最緊要的事就是要有得吃。因為多明尼加那裡呢， 西班牙那地方啦，也是什麼食物都有。但是我注重中國式的食物樣樣都齊全。我就是為了那邊多東西吃，所以我來的。 問﹕ 沒有考慮去舊金山啊，其他地方，有華人--？ 岑﹕因為我所有的朋友都在NEW YORK(紐約)，所有我考慮來NEW YORK(紐約)。 問﹕那麼你來到有沒有好難接受﹖這裡冬天又這麼冷，好多東西也不同，你那時候冷不冷？ 岑﹕因為我們呢，我們習慣了，因為我們以前年輕時，好喜歡打球，運動啦。我個人是很ACTIVITY(活躍)的，就比較，也就是活動性的，也就是適合環境就是很容易的，也就是完全沒覺得冷的。 問﹕你來的那個時候，懂不懂英文呢﹖ 岑﹕我也懂一點。我以前在澳門讀書都懂，一路也是在多明尼加那時候讀西班牙文，我們也是用英文的，兩種語文一起地讀。 問﹕你來的時候有二十多歲啦﹖ 岑﹕是。 問﹕還是蠻年輕的﹖ 岑﹕是啊。 問﹕你剛過來的時候是做什麼的呢﹖但是-- 岑﹕我剛過來的時候是修理錶啦。跟那個西人做了一年，之後居留就好了。之後因為我自己在那邊做了一年老闆，我就立即自己開間公司。跟一個朋友立即自己，還在哈林區開﹗你們不敢去那裡啦，但是那邊舖子租金便宜啊，那時候，一百而十多元舖租。我說，好，租一間鋪出來，先開了鋪，一路做，一路學，也就是在美國去摸索怎麼在美國做珠寶。實在在那邊開了，初初也不是志在賺錢，是志在先入了行，看市場，怎樣的做法，怎樣自己做。 問﹕那時候，唐人街的屋租，是不是很貴﹖你要到HARLEM(哈林)呢﹖ 岑﹕不是。因為那時候，我有班朋友，住在上面那邊。他見到有一間-- 因為我有個同鄉，在對面開了餐館，叫做華庭餐館。他開了幾十年了，現在沒有做了。他說，“對面有個鋪位，租金廉宜，你不如上來這裡開啦﹗那邊很多西班牙人，西班牙人的生意最好啦”。我說，“試試看就租了來做。我們做了一年左右，我們已經賺了十萬，八萬了。我們又跟另一個PARTNER(合夥人)，兩個人在BRONX那邊Concord又開一間，那麼我變了兩間，變了開了一年半之後，我們又賺了十多﹑二十萬。這時候，我就去了CANAL (堅尼路)開鋪。在CANAL 225號開，開了之後，一路到現在，我的舖子還在。 問﹕NO NO NO WE CAN’T [PAUSE] 岑﹕那時候，就是七一年，開了大約一年左右呢，我們在BRONX(布朗士區) 的concord又開第二間，我的PARTNER (合夥人)就去守那間，我就守157街BROADWAY那間。那麼ALAN在上面守呢，後來在過半年之後呢，我找到鋪位，我搬下到CANAL街來，那時候是七三年。 問﹕聽來，好像是很大膽，你只有二十多歲。 岑﹕是嗎，我不是，我絕對不-- 也就是說一定要勇敢，做人一定要勇敢。那時候我隔壁哈林啊，打劫啊，那間銀行打劫，三支機關槍帶到門口，我趕快逃啊。打劫我隔壁的銀行，HARLEM啊。HARLEM BANK，三支機關槍，教那些警車也走回頭路﹗ 問﹕那是不是你懂西班牙語，可以跟那些顧客-- 岑﹕也就是可以溝通，YEAH，可以溝通，所以，就--。但是我們那時候做就比較容易，就沒有那麼多COMPETITION(競爭)。還有是很少人做，生意也很好。所有好多的同鄉，親戚朋友，都說千萬不要做，說在美國，是沒有中國人做珠寶的。 問﹕你來美國之前，對美國有什麼印象呢﹖ 岑﹕對美國，因為我們很多時候會看歷史，報紙，還有時事新聞，也知道美國是唯一一個國家，現代社會，經濟發展得最強的。而且，美元穩定啊，也就是來到這裡，工作生意也比較穩定。特別我們這些勤力的人，一定有成就的-- --就是要有點信心。 問﹕你來之前，是不是未有家庭﹖ 岑﹕還沒有。 問﹕你剛來的時候，你看，你覺得那時候七十年代，唐人街是什麼樣子的呢﹖ 岑﹕唐人街那時候，就是孔子大廈也還沒有起(興建)。那時候有很多的爛破屋的﹗那裡有牌子寫著「提防小手」，也就是提防那些偷盜。 那時候只有幾間破屋，在孔子大廈那邊。我們就住在EAST BROADWAY(東百老匯)那邊，在郵政局隔壁。 問﹕但是那時候，那個範圍一定沒有現在那麼大﹖ 岑﹕範圍沒有現在那麼大，而且那個時候的人--差不多我們出街，每個人也認識的。也就是說，你在唐人街，人人都認識的。每一個人都認識每一個人啊。也就是說當時比較少一點人。 問﹕親密一點啦﹖ 岑﹕親密一點，也就是每一個人都認識。你在那裡做生意啊，你在那裡出入，每個都認識。現在不可以啦，認識不了那麼多啦。 問﹕那麼你來到覺得困不困難呢﹖你每一樣事也要-- 岑﹕我很順利的，我是非常的順利。 問﹕你為什麼這樣的順利﹖ 岑﹕因為我自己有信心，我自己勤力和爭取，對啊。 問﹕就是這些東西令你做生意很順利﹖ 岑﹕對。沒錯。 問﹕你在那一年在唐人街開舖子的﹖ 岑﹕我在七--讓我看看-- 七二年搬入，七二年那時候搬下去唐人街的。但是七一年已經在HARLEM開了啦，到七二年中間那時候，我不太記得，忘了日子啦。這麼就搬了下來唐人街這裡，是225號CANAL街，也就是225號，在中央街和CANAL街交角那裡，還有的是，我是第一個中國人在那裡租舖子做珠寶。 問﹕在那個時候，七零年代唐人街是不是還有很多黑社會呢﹖你做這個行業，覺不覺得有很大的危險性﹖也就是-- 岑﹕YEAH，我覺得絕對就是不會的。因為--為什麼呢﹖我們做這行業，我們當然要小心門戶，門戶要小心，也就是自己要提防啦。但是也不是那麼的危險。我也有膽在HARLEM開，我在CANAL街更加不會覺得危險啦。 問﹕那麼你有沒有試過打劫呢﹖給人家--？ 岑﹕有啊。試過很多次啦。給人拿起就走啊，這樣啦，一支槍指著，只可等他拿走。 問﹕但是你的親人有沒有給人家--？ 岑﹕有，有啊。 問﹕但是，你還是不怕﹖ 岑﹕我不怕的。我-- --人家來打劫我，我說，你最多拿東西走，你不要DON’T MAKE NERVOUS，當然不要NERVOUS，先不要緊張。你要什麼，你拿去，就走。 問﹕你自己本人，有沒有拿住槍﹖ 岑﹕我不能夠拿槍啦。如果真的要拿槍，我已經打死了幾次人。但是我不喜歡，拿槍對待。現在打劫，只是拿一些東西，對嗎﹖拿槍，如果拿槍，抓槍去來，不是他射你，就是你射他，不能的。做我們這個行業有槍是很危險的。 問﹕那時候，七十年代初，雖然唐人街很多黑社會，但是有沒有要給錢某一黨派去？ 岑﹕沒有，我們沒有。 問﹕-- 保護你﹖ 岑﹕是有這些事。我們這邊沒有。因為七十年代初那時候，雖然就-- --很混亂，也就是每天都有人下來唐人街這裡想打劫那些舖子。當時呢，我就組織 了一個會，一個叫CANAL STREET JEWELRY MERCHANT ASSOCIATION(堅尼路珠寶商人協會)。我做會長，那時候，就請了六個ARMED GUARD(警衛)守這條街。我是做HANDLE(處理)的，就請這些ARMED GUARD(持械警衛)，六個ARMED GUARD，有槍的，看守，每一個BLOCK(街口)看守，所以他們去那裡打劫，不敢到我們那邊。 問﹕那些是你私人-- 岑﹕不是，是我們會的。 問﹕--會的﹖ 岑﹕我們那個會，每人三百元，也就是我做組織啦，那時候我做會長的。我在HANDLE(處理)，收錢啊，給那些GUARD(警衛)。做計算，人家不給我，我自己給人家那一份。 問﹕由一個中國人來講，你覺得在美國做在美國的中國人，和在南美洲有沒有什麼不同的呢﹖以一個美國人對中國人來看，和南美洲人對中國人來看﹖ 岑﹕我相信呢，你自己相處那些人，如果，假如你自己真正在某方面或是有知識啊，這樣人家也不會歧視你的。除非你做一些，不好的事，或是行為啊，舉動啊，也就是做得不好，即使是同類，人家，不是中國人也會歧視你。我不感覺，我常常也不會感覺給人家歧視啊。好像我最初呢，開珠寶店的時候，有一班猶太人，在CANAL街做的。見到我們中國人來開，他說，“中國人啊，你應該在對面開賣食物啊，或是開餐館，做那些。為甚麼你會來做我們這行業呢﹖”他，第一會歧視，取笑的型式，但是我會很斯文的跟他講，我說猶太以前，在埃及，也就是耶穌誕生之前，在埃及，給埃及王拉去做奴隸，起金字塔，當摩西帶猶太人回去中東的時候，跟中東的有非常的衝突，沒路可走，就跟絲綢之路，在唐朝時代入了我們中國，有二萬多猶太人，入了我們中國。在第一次世紀之難，我們中國人保護了你們猶太人，第二次呢，那個希特勒呢，第二次世界大戰，就殺那些猶太人，殺到手弱的時候，你有地方走嗎﹖只有我們中國人接受你，去了上海。兩次世紀之難，我們中國人都救了你啊。你不能夠歧視我們啊，我們是你的朋友。 問﹕然後你說-- 岑﹕HEY，中國人啊，你不要再講這個故事。我說如果再想聽多些歷史，我再講。他說，也就是說不應該歧視人。 問﹕也就是說，你要用歷史道理跟他講，這樣才可-- 岑﹕也不是，如果你自己有(料)才幹，沒有人可以歧視你，不敢歧視你啊﹗人家會RESPECT你，尊敬你，最緊要你自己是嗎。 問﹕你來到美國開鋪，後來哈林兩間有繼續﹖ 岑﹕哈林區那間，我搬了去CANAL街，沒有做啦。 問﹕那麼你現在總共有幾多間﹖ 岑﹕我現在有三間。也就是我太太看那間舊的，我自己在軍人會樓下一間，我太太隔壁那間也是我的。 問﹕你本身是住在那裡呢﹖現在-- 岑﹕我現在住在QUEENS，ASTORIA(皇后區的亞士多利亞)。 問﹕也就是沒有住在唐人街很久啦﹖ 岑﹕沒有住啦。我七九年已經搬了過去了。我舊時在EAST BROADWAY(東百老匯) 住啊。YEAH 問﹕那麼你在唐人街住的時候，你覺不覺得好像好多中國人在唐人街，全個世界就是這個唐人街，不多出去紐約其他地方﹖長時間來看，好像好小的一個地方。那麼，你的生活，會不會是這樣的﹖ 岑﹕我是不會的。因為我們呢，就每一年，都喜歡去旅行啦，去第二個地方，而且我一班朋友啦，在那裡住也有朋友的，有時候去探探朋友啦。也就是說我們不是封閉式的，我們生活幾代會跟潮流轉的。也就是不會像那些老伯那樣，不出唐人街。他們在唐人街幾十年，整天留在唐人街，就連搭火車去出門也沒有，我們絕對不會是這種啦。 問﹕你覺得七十年代那個時候，唐人街那些街坊團不團結呢﹖那個時候，多數是台山跟廣東人，也就是沒現在那麼複雜﹖ 岑﹕不過一般來講，以前大約百分之八十也是台山人，那時候我們一班客人，朋友也是台山人多。YEAH。(是的) 問﹕你覺得那時候的唐人街，比較現在，會不會團結一點呢﹖也就是沒有現在那麼複雜呢﹖現在比較多種人。 岑﹕我覺得得看由那一方面來講。如果你講複雜，跟每個意見各方面來講就覺得。一個人和一個人跟社會的關係，這樣的就絕對不會。也就是說你複雜的情況是你自己個人的情況，不是整個社會的，我覺得情況不是這樣。 問﹕你不認為現在唐人街是好不團結，廣東人﹑台山人﹑又福建人好像-- 岑﹕絕對不會的。我對福建人﹑台山人﹑還有對我自己鄉里，也是一樣。在我心目中，就算我聽到朋友講話，跟誰過份什麼的，台山福建這樣，我都會用理由去解釋，他這樣不應該。我們中國人怎麼可以歧視我們自己中國人呢﹖我的客戶有西班牙人﹑非洲人﹑什麼人種類也有，我都他們呢，始終我在我的觀感來講是沒有等級的。 問﹕可能是你本人-- 岑﹕對。 問﹕--是不是這樣子。但是很多中國人在唐人街來講，我們是不團結的。所以就在紐約市來講就沒有一種權力，因為好多唐人也是不團結，每一個會也有自己的看法，那麼你-- 岑﹕我覺得呢，跟以前比較呢，我很少參與社區活動那些會的。但是最近來講呢，一班朋友呢，也就是有時要做些什麼，就要我出來，參與一下，我們多一點接觸。我認為中國人呢，團體啊，姓氏啊，那些會啊，是非常我們中國的，是最有價值的CULTURE(文化)。一班同鄉啊，走在一起，大家有困難，互相幫助啊，借錢啊，或是有什麼意見啊，家庭問題啊，自己有一班人解決。對外而言，是他沒有跟一個GROUP(團體)去交-- 也就是去相處啦。當然啦，一個，那個人去跟第二個個人去相處不很久，就是不明白的。當然對每一種事的看法就不同，無論是做事，一個國家都一樣，對看法不同，拿出來，大家互相去argue(爭吵)，沒緊要，去爭吵，沒緊要，找出一個真理，大家一起要做，應該是這樣的。社會是跟國家一樣的。我有很多COMMITTEE(委員會)一起，那麼我是從來沒有吵過架的，也沒有人罵過我的。我這麼多COMMITTEE(委員會)做，跟他們一起做，只可能將不同的意見，大家相量去解決。 問﹕那麼你來了美國就沒有考慮到過回澳門或是回去玩﹖ 岑﹕有，我有回去玩，回去看看，我一回去，一班同學啊，一班朋友啊，很有-- 問﹕但是沒有想過回去住﹖回去-- 岑﹕絕對不會啦。因為我的兒女在這裡長大，在這裡讀書，家庭最緊要嗎。我事業也在這裡，就是不會-- 問﹕這樣子，好像你的事業，店鋪，也是很順利的，是不是﹖ 岑﹕我覺得，勉強可以支持我家庭的生活，那麼我就已經覺得很滿足，因為我們一個人呢，最重要是覺得自己滿足，而且自己有信心。這樣子去生存，然後才可以-- 問﹕現在回到9/11那個時候啦。 岑﹕是。 問﹕9/11那一年，你在唐人街﹖ 岑﹕是，我在唐人街，對，我還在上班-- 問﹕你記不記得-- 岑﹕我的汽車在DELANCEY(地蘭西)，那時候，第一架飛機呢就撞了在那裡，我就以為是火災，我們還在DELANCEY(地蘭西)那裡，回到DELANCY(地蘭西)和BOWERY(包厘)那裡，CORNER(街角)那裡，見到在窗門那裡起煙。 問﹕後來那段時間，對你的生意有什麼樣的影響﹖ 岑﹕啊，9/11發生之後，我們關門，關了三天，因為那些煙呢，那陣煙味，整個唐人街COVER(被掩蓋)了，空氣很不舒服，同時，那時候就覺得那些空氣，還是很不舒服。也就是說那些空氣呢，呼吸空氣的時候，很污濁的。所以我們沒回去，沒有開門三天。 問﹕那麼，在這三天時間，有沒有人打劫﹖有沒有人打擾什麼的﹖ 岑﹕絕對沒有。那次就是因為美國的通訊和資訊先進，每個人都知道發生了什麼事啊--大家應該用什麼的心態去保護這個國家，怎樣去--什麼意見去提出來啊，怎樣去保護我們的國家啊，也就是那個同時的情況，怎樣發生，所以每個人心中就是問這些事。我相信不會，那些出來打劫那些事就絕對沒有。所以我覺得NEW YORK(紐約)已經進步了，或是水準高了。 問﹕那麼，你的生意有沒有影響了呢﹖也就是說，除了那三天關門之後﹖ 岑﹕當然是影響非常之大啦，因為以前我們在II WORLD TRADE CENTER(世貿中心)那裡做工的人，好像MERRILL LYNCH(美林證券)，跟LEHMAN BROTHERS(李曼兄弟)，很多在那裡的也是我的客戶。他們在LUNCH TIME 的時候，LUNCH也不吃，出來看一下表啊，WEDDING BAND那些，他們這些人，已經全走了去第二個地方工作，這些客戶不再回來了。 問﹕你意思是你的客戶，不只是唐人街的唐人，很多WALL STREET (華爾街)啊-- 岑﹕對啊。 問﹕-- 其他鬼佬也來的﹖ 岑﹕對。 問﹕大約你BUSINESS(生意)損失有幾多呢﹖ 岑﹕一段一段時間啦，初時只剩下三分之一，後來慢慢地一路去好，但是現在相差還有二十五到三十個PERCENT(百分點)。 問﹕你有沒有去申請9/11救助金﹖ 岑﹕我就沒有去直接地申請，但是有一次，他寄來一張FORM，就填表，可以幫助我們的租金這樣。我們啦，收了四千元，一次四千元，一次三千元，好像是七千元。 問﹕你的屋租有沒有起價，這幾年﹖ 岑﹕我的屋租就一路一路有起的。 問﹕也就是說不是因為9/11的影響﹖ 岑﹕因為我們簽租約的時候一路是這樣起，要按照租約那樣交租啦。我屋主就減了一個月屋租。 問﹕但是我覺得唐人街CANAL STREET(堅尼路)走起上來，好像沒有以前那麼多金鋪，是不是呢﹖ 岑﹕不是的。始終也是這麼多，沒有少過，應該是沒有少了。 問﹕跟以前差不多？ 岑﹕YEAH，差不多 問﹕跟9/11以前﹖ 岑﹕對啊。 問﹕你有沒有覺得，唐人客戶少了呢﹖因為這幾年，經濟差了很多，可能人們買金買表，沒以前花錢那麼多，沒以前花的-- 岑﹕如果跟以前，我自己的觀感，對MARKET(市場)來講呢。因為現在美國人，呢，就受了一個市場的經驗，知識水平高了，對於經濟學研究深了，所以好得意，股票賺錢，一窩蜂個個買股票。但是INTERNET(科網)爆了之後呢，個個覺得一不穩定，錢就全不見了。他們現在就買屋，他們買屋，第一間就買來住，第二間買來投資，有兒子結婚呢，就再買一間。如果一個家庭有一個MORTGAGE(貸款)到三個MORTGAGE，把錢給了MORTGAGE，他們的CASH FLOW(現金流量)，已經給MORTGAGE LOCK(鎖)死了。所以我們的經濟就這樣啦。舉例，你有一間房子賣給我，或是我有一間賣給你，我們SIGN UP (簽署)了PAPER(文件)之後，這些錢TURN AROUND，回去銀行，所以銀行會水浸，就有很多錢啦，但是MARKET(市場)就沒有CASHFLOW，所以變了很多RETAIL BUSINESSES(零售業)都會DOWN(下降)，我自己以前一班，在MERRILL(美林證券)做財務的年青人呢，在我們那裡買表，我跟他們談話。我對財務的事，認識也非常之深。因為我喜歡年青人CONVERSATION(對話)，如何看MARKET(市場)啊，經濟如何的轉啊，我們經常的談，所以我看得很清楚。 問﹕你在唐人街三十多年來，那個時代最旺你﹖你的生意最好-- 岑﹕最旺是1983年到1990年那七年，那七年我們做珠寶跟RETAIL BUSINESS (零售業)最旺的。所有的RETAIL BUSINESS是最旺的。 問﹕你對9/11對唐人街有什麼影響，你有什麼看法﹖你覺得這個COMMUNITY(社區)，有這件事之後，有沒有團結多一點﹖還是大家跟之前也是一樣﹖ 岑﹕9/11之後呢，大家都認為覺得是一個時間我們應該要團結在一起。很多餐館也不見了生意，百分之三十，有一些百分之七十。在這樣的情況下，在困難的時候，大家都希望能夠找到一個方法WORK TOGETHER(互相合作)，也就是大家一起做工，想大家如何能夠把唐人街變得更加好，還有在清潔各方面做得更好。希望能夠將唐人街這地方，能夠再BUILD UP(復興)，好一點。 問﹕在你的名片上，我看到你參加了很多會，有一些-- 岑﹕對啊。 問﹕你是CHAIRPERSON，PRESIDENT(主席﹑會長)啊，有一些就是MEMBER(會員)。唐人街這麼小的地方，看上來有很多的會。你認為這麼多會，大家有沒有來往？有沒有溝通？還是只是珠寶，就只有珠寶那行業，餐館就只是餐館那個行業，大家沒有-- 岑﹕如果這樣-- 希望把我的經驗，就是在唐人街的經驗，拿出來跟大家分享一下。如果參加這些會呢，是一個GROUP(團體)的人，做一個GROUP(團體)不同的事。大家心態做一件事。我們中國人呢，因為我們的生活方式是家族式的，封閉式的。所以為什麼我們中國幾千年也這麼落後，就是因為我們用封閉式的生活去處理人生。最簡單有一次，我去領事館，領事請我們吃飯，大家坐下來大約三十個人，但是有十二種言語。其中有一個朋友提起，問為甚麼我們中國有這麼多方言的呢？為甚麼我們只是在廣東也有方言十幾種呢？我說這是很簡單的。我們以前中國是農業社會是封閉式的。我們村不跟你們村打交道，因為你們村不見了豬就說是我們村偷了得，吃了。或是你們不見了牛，又說是隔壁偷了，所以經常爭吵，不來往的。所以我們村講的話， 希望你們村不明白。我們又不明白你們。就是這種封閉式的生活使到中國幾千年也這麼落後。應該開放多一些跟別人接觸，這樣你可以學得很多東西。就算是不喜歡，也會學得很多。 問﹕你意思是，這些在風俗從大陸，這麼多年的歷史，就帶到來，唐人街，也是一樣？ 岑﹕這樣就是不對，大家應該多一些溝通，多一些了解，不同層面的朋友，跟不同GROUP 的朋友做不同的事，你會增加你自己的TALENT，也就是知識。很多事不是能從書本上學回來的。一定要跟人家接觸，然後去溝通。 問﹕你認為普通一個鬼佬外國人，對唐人街有什麼樣的看法呢？如果你一想唐人街，你會先想到什麼呢？ 岑﹕第一，他們會想知道我們中國人的風俗是怎樣的。但是來到唐人街之後就會見到所有物品不同啦，也就是我們中國人吃的東西不同啦，用的東西不同啦，GIFT SHOP, CULTURE 也不同啦。但是他們是已經知道，中國人有很多東西是值得他們去學。最簡單，二十多，三十年前，我有一個做會計，叫李先生，李深知先生，做會計的，在CANAL街那裡計數啦，報稅這樣，那時王安電腦，那個王安，他以前是COMPUTER ENGINEER(電腦工程師)，是很TOP(頂級)的，在原理上，已經知道如何製造電腦，但是在機械上，他們沒辦法過關，他們來到李先生這裡，看到有個老人，用算盤打數就想到，啊可以啦﹗我們要將電子線路安排像算盤那樣，走上去一個數，走橫去一個數，這樣就可以啦。我們現在的電路的設計就是這樣來的。所以電腦的FUNCTION(功能)，也是由我們中國的算盤那裡來的。有很多人不知道這件事。 問﹕也就是說-- 岑﹕沒有了中國的算盤，根本沒有可能將電腦結構成機械。 問﹕一個外國人對唐人街的印象是什麼，你認為他們會覺得中國人有很多東西是值得去學。是不是這樣？ 岑﹕對，是這樣。有一些，他們也知道中國的食物是全世界最豐富，而且是多樣化，所以那個法國主廚比賽那個進王軍，三界也得到冠軍。也就是說，中國的美食和藝術，做食品的藝術，已經是全世界沒有辦法追的。 問﹕但是在紐約雖然有很多華人，我們政治方面，權力還是很小，因為很多中國人也不選舉，那麼你自己，親人，有沒有參加這些--？ 岑﹕我呢，一路鼓勵我的朋友，我的兒女呢，我也要勉強他們去投票，一定的。一定要的。這是我們公民的義務。二來，我們唐人街要做一些什麼事，也一定要選票做BACKGROUND(背景)，也就是聲音可以大一點。要是我們要做什麼的，可以得到市政府，了解我們多一些，也會對社區關心一點。好像中華公所那樣，那兩年，非常之OPEN(開放)，常常接待州長啊，他們來啊，演講啊，經常跟他們溝通啊，我們需要什麼的可以直接地跟他講啊。他們也會給我們一些注意力。我們是一定要這樣的。做不做到，成不成功是另外一件事，但是我們對社區的態度是應該要這樣做的。 問﹕你在美國住了三十多年。你覺得你自己是一個中國人住在美國？還是已經是一個中國美國人？ 岑﹕我絕對是中國美國人啦。我們是已經入籍了嗎。對嗎？但是呢，對我們中國文化啦，不能夠否定我們受中國教育，對中國文化就比較了解一些，變了興趣方面也是屬於中國化。 問﹕依你來看，現在唐人街最大的問題是什麼？ 岑﹕現在最大的問題，第一是交通，第二是清潔，第三，我們要經濟，因為沒有了車衣廠之後呢，我們的經濟受到來威脅，變了。女人啊，以前在衣廠做的，現在要轉型，做護理啊，也就是要慢慢的轉型。但是除了轉型之外呢，我們唐人街做生意，不能像以前那樣，只是有亞姆幫襯(女性長輩來購物)，我們要轉型，做一些以旅遊，遊客為主，也要做一些貨物適合於美國市場的，同時要吸引有購買力的遊客，在這裡花錢。也就是將唐人街變成了一個文化旅遊中心。這樣對我們以後的經濟生存，和在形式上來講，就應該要BUILD UP(建立)，用開揚(開放)形式來做。不能像以前那樣，覺得我們已經有足夠的生意去做，衣廠能賺得錢，老闆可以去大西洋城，幾萬元放在桌子的賭博。這些形式已經不可能存在。我們應該更加要SERIOUS(嚴肅)一些對我們的社區，要轉型和推動。所以我加入那個唐人街旅遊推廣協會呢-- 問﹕REVIEW CHINATOWN，對嗎？ 岑﹕YEAH，那個。 問﹕唐人街旅遊推廣協會，在9/11以前就已經成立了的，希望將唐人街所以的消息，全發放出去，之後讓傳媒替我們PROMOTE(推廣)，讓他們認識我們唐人街，認識我們中國的文化。很得意的，有一次我們招待那些傳媒， NEW YORK(紐約) 的記者跟國務院有一個女人，是做推廣民族文化的那個首長，我忘記了名字，她來到，跟我們GRAND TOUR，帶他們一班人旅遊唐人街，在唐人街我們帶他們去吃點心，去喜萬年 (DIM SUM RESTAURANT)，吃點心。她問，現在八點半，為什麼這麼多人在這裡吃早餐呢？是不是昨天沒吃晚飯？我說不是這樣的，我說中國人，一早起來，最重要的就是“飲茶”。“飲茶”是中國幾千年來的社會習慣。“飲茶”來講呢，你看那邊一個GROUP(一班人)，那一班老人家一張報紙開出來，他們呢，今天有什麼的新聞會公開一起評論。有什麼政治性的，POLITICS 什麼問題，他們會在這裡評論。你見到另外的桌子，有兒童的，是FAMILY(家庭) 的，今天可能是誰的生日，大家在談關於FAMILY 的事。再過一桌呢，你見到一班也是做生意的，穿了衣服做生意的。有可能，一個人拖欠了誰得錢，叫他明天出來“飲茶”呢，那麼你就要記得要帶五百元要還給他。從生意是在這裡，FAMILY MEETING(家庭聚會)， BUSINESS MEETING(商務聚會)，跟那些社區主席們談論社區事務也在這裡。所以我們中國人呢，不用給錢看那些PSYCHOLOGIST(心理學家)，那些心理醫生。我們在這裡已經全醫好了。有什麼問題呢，出來找朋友呢就已經醫好你了。那個PSYCHOLOGY(心理學家)醫生又如何知道PERSONAL LIFE(私人生活)啊？但是你的朋友知道便可以解決你的問題啦。所以我覺得我們這些文化呢，西方是沒有的。你們這些人原來這麼利害﹗我們做生意的有什麼問題，約他出來，有什麼不合意的，在這裡便講到同意。為何要MEETING(聚會)呢？要MEETIING，又要MEETING 什麼的。我們在這裡什麼也同意了。我們一路的吃，一路興奮地講東西，容易SMOOTH DOWN(氣氛融洽)，就是沒有ARGUMENT(吵架)，如果我在跟你講生意，有什麼不對，我們不會啪桌子鬧。你們老番呢，MEETING不對呢，就會啪桌子鬧，我們是不可以這樣的，因為我們旁邊有一桌，看到便不好啦。我們最多是小聲的鬧。所以，她說，啊你從來沒講過我聽這回事﹗我說，所以我現在講給你聽，如果你想寫一本書，一本小說-- 也就是說她學了我們中國傳統的文化，也就是價值觀。 也就是說，很多人不習慣這種生活，但是你慢慢的，如果你是有感性的，能夠感受到這些呢，你是可以寫成小說的內容。 問﹕剛才我問你，你覺得唐人街最大的問題是什麼。我做這個PROJECT(計劃)，也跟了很多街坊談，講來講去，也是講交通啦，清潔啦，房租啦，就是每個人也知道--住屋問題。 問﹕對。 岑﹕這幾樣東西是非常的重要啦。 問﹕但是每個也知道，問題是這些東西，但是為甚麼，十多﹑二十年來，還是沒有辦法解決呢？唐人街依然是這麼骯髒，也是這麼窄，也是這麼逼？ 岑﹕但是我覺得，首先講住屋，我記得那時候，1970年代，起那個孔子大廈那時候，有很多單位，也要很久才能租出去，很多人不申請。慢慢地，逐漸地移民越來越多，在EAST SIDE (東城)那邊就有很多猶太人就搬了出去，同時在小意大利區那邊，那些意大利人又搬了出去逐漸地，也有些填補。但是現在就真的是爆滿了。所以現在在唐人街住屋是一個很大的問題。現在如果有地方，也會很貴，幾百元一呎地，也買回來興建房子。可以賣得到六，七百元一呎。人口密度高了，城市價值也高了，但是衛生方面-- 所以有這個華人清潔協會，自從BILL LAM(林建中) 和DANNY LEE(李奇峰)等，組織起來之後，我一路也在背後參與和盡心盡力地去幫他們，去拉MEMBER(會員) 和其他人捐錢啊，我就是很熱心地去做這些工作的。他們每個也知道的。YEAH。如果近十年，跟以前比較，那麼會相差很遠。現在的唐人街已經是清潔了很多，你不覺得嗎？但是不是理想到像-- 問﹕MIDTOWN那樣。 岑﹕對，像MIDTOWN(中城)和PARK AVENUE (柏大道)那樣。因為他們上面根本沒有我們這裡這麼多人，遊客和不同地方來的遊客來我們這裡。同時，TRAFFIC交通繁忙，沒有像我們那樣密度那麼大，好像是星期六，星期日那樣子，一，二萬人擁入來啊變了-- 人多了呢，就一定是骯髒了一點的。所以我們現在就儘量教導人們，叫他們不要隨地扔垃圾。最簡單，我有一次，在街上，見到一個女人就掉了紙袋在街上。她旁邊的朋友是認識我的，見到我，說人家清潔華埠，你還不快將這垃圾執拾起來，這個女人便知道要把垃圾袋挑回來才可。也就是說，我們要教導人們，怎樣去保持街道清潔是很緊要的。所以我們將來呢，我們會錄了一支歌唱，關於是如何清潔啊，是每一個人的責任，看有沒有辦法，叫成龍唱出來。在街上廣播，叫人們注意不要隨便在街上掉垃圾。這樣的話-- 我們也要打掃，請一些人，就每一天，請三，四人，換那些垃圾袋去打掃。唐人街比以前已經好得多了。以前，那些垃圾公司呢，是不理會的。我後來，發現了原來，唐人街之所以臭，是因為垃圾車，收了濕的垃圾，在垃圾壓榨的時候，水汁便會流出來地上，這樣便會臭。我便跟那些垃圾局局長啊，垃圾公司的老闆啊，跟他們講，如果你們收垃圾的時候，知道那裡有濕的垃圾，收在最後，這樣的話，垃圾汁變了不會滴下了全街，也是臭味也減少了五十個PERCENT(百分點)以上。我們注意如何去清潔，注意不清潔從那裡來。但是我們沒有辦法--因為這裡有很多人來往，而且MARKET(市場)，那些FISH MARKET (魚市場)又在中心地帶，變了會有這些情況。我們儘量可以做到最好啦。但是沒有可能做到完全沒有。完全沒有也就是沒有人來，沒有人來就是更加慘的。 問﹕看上來，你不只在唐人街做生意，用很多時間做COMMUNITY SERVICE(社區服務)-- 岑﹕YEAH。 問﹕--那麼你的兒女啊，下一代，有沒有像你一樣的想法？ 岑﹕他們讀書，現在我兒子，在TUFTS讀書，他已經在NORTHWESTERN(西北大學)讀了書出來，做工，做了兩年，後來攻讀碩士，又想讀博士，在TUFTS 那裡。因為他說是全部免費的，我便跟他說要趕快讀。他讀PHILOSOPHY，讀哲學-- 問﹕那麼你-- 岑﹕我不管了，第二代如果有這樣的興趣，那當然是他們自己的選擇啦。 問﹕--沒有給壓力他們，要繼續做你這個行業？ 岑﹕沒有啊，絕對沒有。 問﹕那你的生意將來--？ 岑﹕我的弟弟跟妹妹，每人一間。所以如果我不給他們，可以給我的弟妹做。絕對沒有這樣的。以前我爸爸是做麵包的，SUMMER TIME (暑期)的時候，他叫我到那裡，幫手做麵包，我們三百元買粉買糖，晚上我們可以收三千元，四千元的，是很好利錢賺的。做麵包嗎？我說，但是我沒有興趣。我還是喜歡那些手造的。 問﹕也就是說，你對下一代，也沒有給壓力-- 岑﹕沒有 問﹕--做些什麼？ 岑﹕很得意的，我大女兒，畢了業，在Swarthmore畢業，喜歡藝術，她現在，在METROPOLITAN MUSEUM (大都會博物館)那裡的 EDUCATION DEPARTMENT(教育部) 做關於藝術的事。最小的那個，在HAVERFORD(哈佛福) 讀，在PENNSYLVANIA(賓州)LANCASTER(蘭卡斯打)那裡讀。她現在去了西班牙，那些STUDENT EXCHANGE，學生交換的東西，六月才回來。我問她，說他哥哥不來幫我，你姐姐就走到METROPOLITAN MUSEUM(大都會博物館)那裡做，你是我最後一個希望，你會出來幫FAMILY BUSINESS(家族生意)嗎？你猜她如何跟我講？她說，DADDY，你在講你自己的夢，YOU’RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MY DREAM。她說你在講你自己的夢，你不是講我的夢。所以我們大家的夢也不同，所以很難的。 問﹕9/11已經過了兩年多，你有沒有覺得已經回到9/11之前那樣LIVELY(蓬勃)，和生意也差不多回復正常沒有？ 岑﹕如果現在來講，唐人街的生意，依然是很靜的。不能說是活躍到像以前那個樣子。除了9/11影響之外，還有經濟，美國的經濟，CASHFLOW(現金流量)，給地產LOCK(鎖)了那些CASH(現金)。對全美國商業的影響也是很大的，你記得以前香港的地產，地產商炒地，將地產炒高，想將窮人全部推回鄉下，回中國，CHINA。香港就算全是經濟學家，但是他們這樣是錯誤的。如果在香港只有幾個有錢人，沒有人在市場消費，沒有人煮飯給你吃，那裡來餐館開？沒有煮咖啡，你根本也不會有咖啡喝。你生活根本是不正常的。一定要-- 一個社會環境生存呢-- 我也寫了一封信給LMDC 的首長，JOHN Whitehead。我說，NEW YORK 要生存，那些SMALL BUSINESS 一定要能夠生存，然後大的生意才可以生存。好像我們一個地球的環境，如果沒有草根層，吸了這些水啊，就會好像是沙漠那樣，大樹也不能生長的。一定要有很多草然後才有樹可以生。你再去看全世界的環境，如果沒有草的環境，那些樹也一定不能生長的。一定要草根層吸了那些水，你的大樹，才可以長得大。我說，不只是II WORLD TRADE CENTER等大公司的問題， 你也要注意一下，TAKE CARE(照顧)那些小的生意。如果小的生意環境不好的時候，只有大樹，在沙漠只有一個大樹的時候，是一定沒有葉的。一定會枯死的，我說。經濟是這樣的。我知道原來NEW YORK的稅收，七十個PERCENT(百分點)來自SMALL BUSINESS(小生意)的，全部的稅收，大的生意只佔百分之三十。你可以叫他們做小商業調查。 問﹕好，我們今天也講了很多的事。你還有什麼想給我們知道？我沒有問的事？還有什麼YOU WANT TO SHARE WITH US(你想和我們分享)？ 岑﹕我就沒有什麼 IDEA (點子)啊，但是最緊要呢，就是我們唐人街，能夠將我們中國的文化，PROMOTE (推廣)出去，讓美國每個地方，也有興趣來這個地方，吸收一下我們中國的文化，對於食物啦﹑GIFT啦﹑還有我們唐人街啦，JEWELRY MARKET，我們做珠寶這樣，在全世界沒有一個珠寶市場是可以跟我們比的。好像是四十七街那樣，他們只是賣美國的款式，但是我們這裡有中國款式的珠寶﹑也有歐洲的﹑和美國本地的，全世界的首飾，在我們唐人街市場也可以找得到。全世界沒有一個珠寶市場是比我們更強的，希望人們多一些來這裡買珠寶啦，讓我們有生意啦。 問﹕你有信心，將來的生意會再PICK-UP？會轉好。 岑﹕會的，如果那些利率一升，地產就會降溫，地產降溫的時候，CASHFLOW 就不會被LOCK死了，RETAIL (零售)是會好的。好像香港那時候炒地產，沒有生意啦，全部死了，每個人也拿錢去供MORTGAGE，銀行呢，就儲了很多錢，在香港儲錢，儲一百萬，你還要付款給銀行款項儲存費STORAGE。他不給利息你，還跟你要STORAGE 錢。銀行有太多的錢， 他們炒地產嗎。好像是飛機那樣，如果你的重量側在一邊是很危險的，對經濟會有危險的。 問﹕OK，好，我們很多謝你今天給我們時間 岑﹕好。 問﹕--跟我們談天，希望你LOTS OF GOOD LUCK(幸福)。 岑﹕YEAH，謝謝。 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource S.W. Sang 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Henry Ye Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2003-03-11 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation New Life Center Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is March 11, 2004, I am sitting here with Henry Ye of True Light Church on Worth Street in Chinatown. Let’s begin by having you tell us a little bit about where you are from. Ye: Well, I was born in China, Canton, and then I went to South America for six years, and then I end up here in New York. Q: Wow, okay, [laughs] that’s very fast. Okay, we have to, we have to back up. You were born in, in Canton. Can I ask you how old you are? Ye: Well, at that time I was thirteen, when I moved out of China. Q: And this is in what year? Ye: Um, 1982. Q: ’82. Why did your family decide to leave China? Ye: Well, my family, um, actually, more, my sister’s family already is in Central America, so we just migrated there to join them. And China, of course, have less of opportunity I guess in terms of better economic situation and you have less, um, choice, of life. Q: Do you remember much of your childhood in China? Ye: Ah, yeah, a little bit, I think, um, what I can really remember is that I came from a very poor family, and peasant family, and there was always lack of food, and lack of money, and I think that South America probably have a better opportunity because I see my sister doing well, so we decided to all go to Central America. Q: And how, ah, your sister was already living--- Ye: Yes. Q:---where in Central America? Ye: Panama. Q: Okay, so she legally sponsored you to Panama? Ye: Yeah, yeah. My brothers, and all my sister and brother are already out of China. Q: And you went with your parents? Ye: My parents actually they stay behind for a little bit, and then my mom also went to Central America. Q: Well, so how did you feel as a thirteen-year-old? Did you want to leave China? Ye: Well, thirteen years old, as you say, you know, it’s not that I have a choice. I just feel like going to somewhere else, it’s like a trip. You don’t really know how far is that trip until you get there. So, for me at that time I don’t really have, um, any feeling, this is my brother going, so I just follow him, and it’s just like going shopping. You don’t know what will happen, but I know that I will probably have to go for a long time, you know. Q: And did you have any impression of, of what Panama was like? Ye: Not really. They just say that that place don’t have winter, the four seasons the same, hot, you know. Q: And did you speak any Spanish at this time, before you went? Ye: Um, not, not really. Q: And how was that, getting there, and not speaking the language at all, did you have a difficult time adjusting? Ye: Yeah, actually it was pretty, pretty hard. Because at that time, when I was in China, I was in school. But then, when I get to Panama, of course I don’t speak Spanish, I only speak Chinese, and this make it kind of hard for me to go to school because, in that area they don’t really have a bilingual program, like us, here. So it kind of hard for me to fit in, and I tried to attend school, but I couldn’t catch up, so I withdraw, and I, stay out of school for two years, just learning Spanish with, ah, neighbors, you know. Q: So how long did it take you to feel, to become comfortable in Spanish that you can communicate with people? Ye: Well, after a year and a half, I feel much better, and because I still young, at that time I’m thirteen, so learning Spanish is not that hard, um, that age. So a year and a half later I feel pretty comfortable talking to native Panamanian, who was born there. And after that I feel comfortable and now I decide to go back to school. Q: And you didn’t want to go back to China? Ye: No, because my whole family is there already. It’s not I have something to return to. And, I feel, after a year and half, I feel pretty comfortable living in that new environment, so I have decided to stay. Q: And is there a Chinese community in Panama, you can, um, you have Chinese friends there, are there Chinese stores, food--- Ye: Ah, yeah, they have a Chinatown actually in Panama City. It’s very small, very, it’s only like two streets, but they have Chinese restaurants, and Chinese store. In terms of friends, I think I have more Panamanian friends than Chinese friends, because all the Chinese, unless you live in Chinatown, it’s all spread out all over the place, so you don’t, you don’t really have much chance to communicate with other Chinese except when there’s a big holiday celebration and you come together as a Chinese community, in one of the Chinese association, but other than that, just have your schoolmate and classmate. But most of them are Panamanian, you know, born in Panama. Q: And you didn’t feel outcast? It was comfortable, I mean, after you learned to speak the language you, you feel comfortable living there? Ye: Yeah, I, I really feel good. Actually the school that I went, um, the junior high school that I went, actually there is only one Chinese, which is me. And they treat me pretty well, and most, most of the classmate and schoolmates treat me well, and they see someone very different, but they, they also very adaptive, and they also welcome me into their circle I would say. So, I felt good living there and having, you know, them as friends. Q: And then, how long did you stay in Panama? Ye: Well, I stayed there for, like, six year. Yeah. I attend school and then work, you know, for approximately six year. Q: And then how did you---you came to America after that? Ye: Yes. And then I came to America to continue my education. I felt that in Panama it’s, it’s so, I have all my family there, but, ah, I try and look for something more than that, and Panama is a small country, and opportunities there are limited. I would say, um, so I wanted to, higher education, you know, and I wanted to go to college, so I came here to attend college, and try to learn something else. Q: Where was that? Where was the university that you went to? Ye: I went to City College, CUNY. You know, City University of New York. Q: Why did you choose that school? Why did you choose New York City? Ye: Well, I think New York City is more diverse, in certain term of population, in term of language, and I, I love ah different, learn different kind of languages, so I think New York will provide me the opportunity to meet others, non-Hispanic speaking, Spanish-speaking, or non-Chinese-speaking classmate or student, so that’s why I chose New York. Q: And did you learn any English in Panama at this time? Ye: Not really. Actually, I have studied some English, but not like you can have a basic conversation. You probably know some words, English words, but because that environment did not provide the opportunity to practice, and so it is kind of hard to say I, I know English. I probably know some words, but not really English. Q: So you’re nineteen years old, and you came to New York City speaking Chinese and Spanish and very, very little English, and you started university on your own. Ye: Yes. Q: That difficult? Ye: Yeah, it is very difficult. Actually when I came and I went to enroll in college right away, it happened that college in this kind of, because of English level, it’s kind of very far behind, and I felt that if I go to college in that moment it probably going to waste a lot of money, um, because you’re foreign student, and you have to pay double---you have to waste a lot of money to just learn ESL (English as a Second Language) in college. So I decided to go to a high school first, and to learn some English, and so I ended up in high school again, not just learning English, but I took other subjects, and I graduated from high school in two year. And after that, and I went to college. So I have two year preparation before I go. Q: Did you feel strange, as a nineteen-year-old in high school? Although you look young, I think you look young for your age. Ye: Yeah. Well, it’s kind of strange, yeah. But, the high school I went is the Lower East Side Preparatory High School, they only take student seventeen and up, and with junior high or high school graduate diploma, and so they can help you to adjust in this community environment, so it kind of make it easier on me. A lot of those students I know is from different part of the world, and their age is probably seventeen, eighteen. It’s not much younger than me, so I, I feel um, comfortable being part of that school. Q: Did you have any dreams of coming to America? What, what did you want to be? Ye: Well, you know, in nineteen years I don’t really have much dream except that you want to, um, get yourself little bit more knowledge, get yourself some more higher education. And I don’t really know at that time where I will be ten year later or what I will end up doing ten year later, but all I know that I need to go to college and finish college and so that I can have more opportunity. But what kind of opportunity, I don’t know. Q: Your parents [coughs] excuse me, your parents ever give you suggestions, or any pressure to become anything in particular? Ye: Not really. My parent themselves are uneducated people. In China, my mom never attended school. She is illiterate. And my father, I think he only attended up to second grade. So they themselves don’t have the opportunity to attend school, and that’s something that also help me to understand how education is, can help, when I say it’s important. They don’t really give me any pressure that you have to be lawyer or doctor or anything like that, but just that, if you want to study, you go study, and as long as they don’t stop me, then that’s support already. Q: So who did you live with in New York City, you come here by yourself. Ye: Yeah, I, I come here and I have friends. I live with my, my friends, and I stay here and I, I, go to school, and it’s not like I have a base here, because as you know, students come here all by themselves. Q: Did you live in Chinatown? Ye: Yeah, actually when I came here I lived in Chinatown. Yeah, I lived in Christie Street, Christie and Grand Street. Q: So this is, what year are we talking about, by the time you arrived? Ye: I guess 1989, yeah. It’s a long time ago. Q: Yeah, so Chinatown was a very different place then. Were you, were you scared coming here? What, what, did you think about Chinatown? YE: Well, in that time, here, in Chinatown very different compared right now. In that time, actually now, in the late ‘80s, and early ‘90s, there a lot of gangs in Chinatown, and you have seen a lot of young people stand on the corner as a group, and pretty, pretty scary at that time. And I do feel that Chinatown is like a cemetery in that moment because there is so much killing and robbery, and the young people seem they don’t have motivation to go to school and do better, and I just feel that they have no future. So cemetery is the word I keep inside in my mind at that time, that Chinatown don’t really have much hope, if they don’t change. Q: But as a young man here alone, that’s often how a lot of young men join gangs because they’re very alone and they don’t have a family, and they don’t have support. How come you were not attracted to join a gang? YE: Well, actually, I, I thought about it, actually when I was in Panama, I was, was not a straight-A student as well, I kind of live in the very poor, ah, neighborhood, and so it’s very complicated, and there are a lot of gangs that live in that neighborhood, but then when I come to America my aim, my goal is to have better education and better equip myself. But I think that the best thing is that before I came, I become a Christian. This has a lot to do with your question. So when I came to America I already came with that Christian faith, and that’s---I read Bible, it teach you, you know, how to be good, no killing, no harming other people, you have to help people, and so I also go to church in Chinatown. And I think it make a difference, because the church community kind of tell me what is good. And, but of course, all my classmate, or schoolmate in the community tell me what is bad. So I, I have a choice. So this way I know what is good and I know what is bad, and I was able to choose between good and bad, and so I choose good, rather than join a gang. Q: Is your family Christian also? YE: Ah, no, actually, my parents, sister and brother, they’re not Christian. But some of my niece or nephew, after I become Christian, I share the gospel with them so they become Christian. Q: At the time you grew up in China, religion is not really, ah, you can’t practice it in public so much, so did you get a lot of your views on Christianity during your time in Panama? YE: Actually, yeah, in China, I don’t really know much about religion, because as I said, only thirteen years old, and all my parents do is to worship their ancestor with incenses and from time to time---But when I went to Panama, is, this is free country, since the religion is Catholic-based, religious country, and I see my neighbors go to church, and like, every Sunday, and I start having curiosity in the beginning and say, why they go to church and dress out all nice and go to church, and ---So I start kind of questioning them, what is the benefit going to church? And so they kind of explain to me, that, um, well, one, one thing that they said was that you can marry in the church, and with a nice gown and dress up. So that’s the whole idea that started as a whole. One day if I want to get married in the church, I have to be in the church. So that’s how I started going to the church, with my neighbors, with that mentality, hopefully marry in the church one day. Um, not very particular how a religion is focused or anything like that. After I’d gone for a couple of year, and I realized church is more than that. That they tell you how to behave as a moral character, and more moral person, and that really have a lot impact on me. Q: So you’re saying by the time you came here, because of your religious faith, you came here with much more of a, um, a grounding in yourself, and that you, you were motivated to study and to do good, and that steered you out of trouble. You didn’t want to join a gang, by the time you got to--- Ye: Yeah, I, I, definitely say that that is true. I know that as far as my friend, that they leave school, and they drop out, and they don’t want to continue, because there’s no mental support from their parents or from their family. But to me, I don’t have support from my parent or my family as well, but I do have support from the church, um, we call them brother and sister and they encourage me, and when I am down, when I needed help, they kind of encourage me and help me out. And I think it’s, it’s my faith that can help me keep going, because really it’s study two year English and you go to college, it’s very, very difficult in terms of that you have to, really check every word in the Chinese and English dictionary. So, say if a native American student spend two hours studying, I probably have to spend six hours studying because of my language and limitation. But because of my faith, and because of Christianity and believing in God, I always pray, and every time I have exam, I pray, and whenever I encounter difficulties, I pray, and pray God to help me, and that really help me a lot. And when I have struggle, and encounter some difficult situation in life, and I also depend on God to help me. So that really is, is that energy behind my life, and that help me to keep going and keep moving on. Q: And what did you study at CUNY ? Ye: I studied psychology, ‘cause I want to know a little bit more about myself. I find myself like a mystery. Sometime I don’t really understand why you think that way, or, why you make that kind of decision. So I really want to discover a little bit about me, and so, what---it’s why I am who I am, and wanted to learn a little bit about me. That’s how it started, but after I study for awhile and I kind of realize actually psychology not can, not only can help me, but can help other people too, and so that’s why I stick with the subject and graduated with that major. Q: And after four years at CUNY, what was your first job? Ye: Actually, a little bit before I graduated, I applied for a job in Chinatown YMCA, just to work as case planner in the preventive program, which is to help family who got in trouble with ACS , Administration for Children’s Service, and the Center for Children’s Services, or a family that have a problem with the family courts, or families that are at risk, or their kid had dropped out, or their kid is in borderline, they try to join the gang or stay in school. So that is kind of something that I, I interested in, because I was there a couple of years ago, and now, seeing other kid, not going to school, wandering on the street. And I just want to help them, and help them to understand life has more than just have fun on the street. You can do something more than that. And helping the family to stick together, work together. So I started that, as, as a um, preventative case planner in Chinatown YMCA. Q: I know that you didn’t come to New York as an immigrant, but in many ways you are an immigrant in America, but yet you don’t seem very typical because most immigrants come here and they, they work hard, they study hard and they want to make lots of money. Why, what do you think is in you that you want to be a social worker, as you said, at very young, also, to want to give back so early. Ye: Yeah, I think it’s a very good question. You’re right. A lot of immigrant come here and then just want to study something that will make money, like finance or computer science, or electrical engineering. I think it’s very normal because they came from a very restricted, poor environment. But myself, also I came from that kind of environment, poor, restricted, and when I come to America I just wanted to learn more and educate myself more. But at the same time, behind my, my mind, I also want to be rich. I wanted to be making money too. But because going to church, and I see that people in the church help others freely, unconditionally, without any conditions. That, because they help you it’s n to because you will pay them, they help you because you need it. And they feel good about helping others, and also what the Bible teach you. It’s rather, it’s better giving than receiving. And so that also have something to do with my religion background, and that really taught me that money is not everything, but helping people and make people happy, yourself will be happy as well. And some, something money cannot buy, which is happiness. So I, I kind of realized that helping people and not really making a lot of money, but my heart and my life I feel rewarded, or awarded, because seeing a family broken, and now it’s the repaired and all together again, and I think that is more, more than money can buy. And that’s why I, I feel good just to do what I do. Q: And your family supports you, in doing this? They never give you pressure to send us lots of money? Send home lots of money? Take us out of China? Ye: No, actually my family never gave me any pressure, because they all already out of China. I have brother in Panama, brother, brother and sister in Panama, I have brother in Spain, and I have a sister in Florida. They’re all over the place. They’re all out of China. Beside my father, my father don’t want to go out. He like his old hometown. But still I think it’s good for him, he know his neighbors and everything, and we respect that, we respect his decision, so really I have no pressure, they ask me for money or anything like that, because I’m the youngest, so they don’t really expect me too much. You get it? I think that’s a, a good deal. You could have older brother, older sister, and they all helping the parents, supporting the parents, and I’m sort of like burden-free, you know? Q: So your first job out of school was at the YMCA in Chinatown, where you worked mainly with young people you said? Ye: Primarily it was with family that have children, that like I say have, either have problem with the ACS, because of cultural differences and language barrier, they discipline their child and trigger the school or counselor to call Administration for Children’s Service, because they think that there’s a risk of child abuse and child neglect, and so that’s (how) we’re involved, and most of our case come from ACS, referred by ACS, and the criteria is that you, you have to have children in your home, and we work with them, because that’s what preventive mean, to work with family, family that have young children. Q: Well, give us an example of a case, ‘cause I, as a Chinese growing up in America I know that there is a lot of, sometimes misunderstandings between the way Americans interpret what is abuse in the Chinese families. So give us something that you saw a lot that perhaps the way Chinese parents discipline their kids, but American teachers may think the kids are being abused at home. Ye: Well, I, I think one example is in China, I also came from China, and I also come from, I was brought up by parent, and I know in China, when your parent beat you, is because they love you. They correct you because they care about you. That’s the Chinese immigrant’s mentality and philosophy. And there’s just no such law that you hit your child and you are punished and someone will call the police or call the ACS. In China there’s no such, they don’t have that system yet in that time. It mean that your children is under your authority, and that your responsibility, if you don’t discipline them, and in the future they become a bad person in society, then the fault is in the parent, so that’s why the parent will hit them or discipline them. And when you say, hit that mean physical punishment, like that, they probably hit them with a bamboo stick, and try to correct them, and try to help them to, to avoid doing, continue doing bad things. For example, like, there’s a family that come to America, and one of the child does not want to go to school, because they think school is too hard, too difficult, and they don’t speak the language, and they constantly make fun of him. And so he decide not to go to school. So the father, knowing that child not going to school is very young, he is only thirteen years old, if not going to school have no future here in America. You don’t speak their language, you don’t speak English, you’re not going to school, and that’s against the law as well. So of course this law part they might not understand, but they do understand that they want and hope the child can go to school and learn English and have a better life, rather than work hard like them in factory or in the restaurant, and they want the child to do something better than that. But that child not going to school, for the father will discipline the child in the sense that he sort of hit the child, smack the child, and so of course the child, report it, because his father’s---because he’s talking a friend, the friend tell the teacher, and the teacher call ACS, so ACS come and they want to remove the child, but then that’s how we intervene and try to provide service to this family and try to understand what had happened. And so, because we provide the language, translation to the ACS worker, and we got a lot of ACS worker don’t really speak Chinese. And we talk about like five, six years ago, and still uncommon for Asian to get into ACS to work. So, and we help them to understand the culture differences, and the father want to help the child, but then the law says you hit your child, it’s wrong, and that’s why we want to remove your child, and so that’s how end up in the ACS system, because someone reported the incident to the ACS. Which I think is, you know, each country have their own law, and each have, have their own rule. Um, the country that they’re living, right here in U.S., have the law to protect the children, of course they have the right to do what they have to do, but in terms of the parent, they don’t really understand the law, so what’s missing, is the education component to the parent. So that’s where we step in to educate, like what we call parenting skill, or (?) parenting skill training. Try to educate parent, what, the way that they deal with their children in China is not going to work in America, and if you use the same style, strategy, a way to discipline your child, and here in America you will get into trouble with the law. And that’s how this family start understanding and what that meant, so they need, they have corrected the action, and they say that understand, we care about our child, we love our son, but physical discipline our child is against the law, and so they don’t want to do it again. And they want us to provide service to the family, talk to the parent, talk to the kid, and try to educate both side about where they come from, and it’s in the parent expectation and the kid’s struggle. So because the communication, they not going through, so parent do not really understand the child have so much pressure and have so much trouble, and the school tried to communicate, tried to understand. When the parent, just see the child not going to school is wrong. So it’s a matter of communication, and that’s one of the example cases. Classic, because a lot of family even now a days, still have that problem. You see, this year thousands of new immigrant come into this community, but there’s no education going on every day, and so people need to be educated to solve this problem. Q: Do you think there’s a big difference in, say, an immigrant family comes to a place like Chinatown, as opposed to more outside in a suburb, where there’s not a big Chinese community? Is it easier for them to assimilate into American life, coming to a place like Chinatown first? Ye: Well, from my experience, I think Chinatown sort of is the first stepping stone, it, it mean it will be easier for them to adjust, because the community speak the language, and when they go to do shopping, they could shop the food that they want, and find the Chinese food, and also in terms of transportation, it’s limited, instead in Chinatown, you can just walk, in walking distance. And so they can adjust a little bit better. In terms of kid who going to school, they have, let’s say bilingual or ESL (English as a Second Language) classes, that will help the kid to catch up even though they don’t speak English when they come in, and that will help them to learn faster in a sense. But there’s also one problem living in, let’s say, a community like New York City, in Chinatown, is that housing is an issue. There are limited housing. More and more people come, but the building pretty much stay the same, and so, where do people go, just pack into different family. So in terms of like, one apartment, you have one family of four members, now, because your aunt migrated and have no other place to live, then you just pack into that family, and so now you have, let’s say, eight members living in two bedroom apartment, it’s an overcrowded situation. So that’s the only disadvantage. But going to out of state, they say, you know, Chinese go out of state because they see New York City is the state, and what is outside New York City is out of state. And as you know the word “China,” China is the center of the country, or central country. Everything else outside of China is foreign, it, you know, foreign country. So at the same time, our experience that, if an immigrant come to the U.S. and right away they, say move to a suburb, they will have a much harder time to adjust, first as you know some of the suburb like New Jersey or Connecticut, you want to go to supermarket, buy, buy grocery, if you don’t live next to a supermarket, you have to drive. So a lot of immigrants they don’t have driver’s license, they don’t even speak the English to go and test, take a test and get a driver’s license. And driving a car is sometime challenging for just a peasant from China, not even know probably how to ride a bicycle and then now you ask them to drive a car. And for kids, trying to get them in school, there is let’s say, majority of them, let’s say, let’s say, Caucasian, I mean, Caucasian, and also this is a difficulty because not every school have the ESL program or bilingual program, and so, and if they migrate here and then jump into school, I think it’s kind of hard, and then myself, I come, I went to Panama, I jump into school, and then guess what, I have to withdraw, and stay out for a year and a half, try to learn the language and then I go to school. It’s a similar experience. A lot of those family that I know is that they leave their kid behind in New York City, they go to work in out of state because of job scarcity, limited job, so they left the kid behind, with family, or sometime friends, and they go out to work and support the family. But why they don’t take their children with them, when I ask them, because it’s hard for the children to go to school there, because the system, the school system where they have. And so it’s very, very difficult. It challenging for the family. Especially in Chinatown. The family, immigrant family that come here, they face many, many different kind of challenges. Q: So from what you see, say, the percentage of immigrants that come to Chinatown, how many of them really stay here long term, or is it once they get the language and work skills, do they move out? Ye: Well, from, like I say, from what I have seen for the past ten or fifteen year in Chinatown, ‘cause I’ve been here a long time, almost fifteen years. And they have a lot of change in Chinatown, in terms of, let’s said, fifteen years ago, if you, you know Chinatown, pretty much Chinatown is occupied by the Toisanese and Cantonese, you go to the vegetable stand, stand to buy vegetable, you have to speak Cantonese. If you don’t speak Cantonese, you have a hard time to buy a vegetable, because they don’t understand you, and then you don’t understand them. But ten years later, things have changed. The whole community dynamic in Chinatown have changed. If people understand the structure of Chinatown. Pretty much, there’s a group, a fast-growing group, which is the Fujianese community. They come in very, very quickly, and they occupy half of Chinatown from let’s say east of Bowery, and let’s say south of Houston, and let’s say north of Catherine. All that section, and primarily the Fujianese come in, and a lot of the Toisanese or Cantonese, they kind of move out because of housing price are getting higher and higher because demand get higher, the housing price get higher. So a lot of people who are here a little bit longer, they need to move out, either move to Connecticut, or New Jersey, or Brooklyn, some are in Queens, and at this time there’s some people start moving to Staten Island. You need, this is like I say, this is first stepping stone for immigrants. When I was in high school, this was, fifteen years ago, a Chinese teacher already say, if you can make it, you probably not living in Chinatown at this time. Meaning that if you have the English skill, you have driver license, you have some money, and you probably move out to the suburb of Connecticut or New Jersey, or some other, like Brooklyn, Flushing. You don’t have to stick in Chinatown, because with the same amount of money, paying rent, example, you can get a three-bedroom apartment for the same amount of money, and you can only get maybe, say, a one-bedroom apartment in Chinatown. So why do you want to stay in Chinatown? Q: So then how do the new immigrants afford to live in Chinatown if you’re saying Chinatown is so expensive? Ye: That’s the problem, because in Chinatown, the price so expensive that people cannot afford it, that’s why they have to share their apartment. It’s not that they want to, but because of the economic situation, or the price of the apartment is so expensive, one family simply cannot afford it. As an example, a two-bedroom apartment in Chinatown, easily you have to pay one thousand, five hundred or one thousand, eight hundred dollars. A two-bedroom apartment in Chinatown. A family of four, let’s say, father and mother, both are working, and children going to school. So father work in a restaurant. Mother work in a factory. You know a factory how much you can make. Sometime as you have work to do, you make like forty dollars, or sometime eighty dollars if the garment is good, easy to work with. But sometime when the garment is hard, or there is not many work to do, you probably earn twenty dollars a day, and sometimes a day you had earned ten dollars, when there is no, no job. So it kind of hard for a family to just make enough money to pay the rent. Forget about the food and other expenses. So there is no way for them to do that, so they divide up an apartment and say, two bedrooms, and they rent out one bedroom, and share the living room, the kitchen, with another family, and so they co-share nine hundred each, example. Each family pay nine hundred dollars. So they can barely survive in a sense. So that all four member of the family has to pack into a one-bedroom apartment. There’s no privacy, you know, for that family. It’s a very, very difficult situation, and we have seen many, many family have to do that. But if you’re single, then, of course, one bedroom apartment, let’s say two bedroom apartment, easily you can, well, they will, rent it out for eight people, ten people to share, a two-bedroom apartment, so they will have all the bunk bed all over the place. If people know Chinatown well, they know that. So they rent, not by bedroom but by bed space. So that’s how they can pay the rent. Q: Now why, why is the Fujianese in particular, in the last ten years or so, so attracted to New York? Do they go to other places in America? Do they go to other countries, or do they leave China and New York is the top destination that they want to go to? Ye: Well, in 1994, the State Department estimate that they have a hundred thousand Fukienese in the U.S., and New York, Chinatown is the prime location. That’s the first choice for all the Fukienese. And so, at that time, in 1994, and this is the time up to the Golden Venture incident, and that’s how the government officials start paying attention to this population. And before that, they don’t really give too much attention unless the local government official, the city or police say that this community have a lot of gain and all that. But 1994, they estimate a hundred thousand in the U.S., and most of them are in New York City, so this is the first choice, and remember we’re saying, whatever state outside of New York City, they call them out of state. So New York is the home base for the Fukienese. As you can see, East Broadway, that ‘Yidonglo,’ that east mall of east Broadway, eighty-eight east Broadway, that’s at the root of this community, the tree of this community. So most of them when they come, first they come here and see all the job, ah, say, office, that help people look for job, and help people to, um, let’s say, go to different places, you have bus stations and everything. Of course, ten years ago, this not there. Not many. But still, they have large association here in New York City, a lot of Fukienese association, and so this is the prime, prime location for them. When they first, when they come in, first stepping stone. And some people do go out of New York City, because there is not, not enough jobs in New York City for them. And most of the men, the Fukienese men are restaurant worker, and most of the lady are garment worker, so a lot of the couple, if they come in as a couple, they probably have to spread out, so the father will go out or stay to work, and come home once a week or twice a week, depends how far or how close you work. If you work far away in Tennessee or Ohio, you probably come home once a month or twice a month, so it depends. People do go out because, no job. Especially after 9-11, a lot of more people move out of New York City, because job scarcity. There’s no, no, not much work. The garment factory, a lot of them closed down, so then they packed their whole family and moved to out of state or left the children behind and the wife also joined the husband and go to work in a restaurant. Q: I have the impression, I think a lot of people have the impression that the Fujianese community tends to be a bit of a closed community. If you are not Fujianese, if you don’t speak the dialect, it’s very hard to get in there. Is that true? And because of that, are they, would you say they are more, ah, unified, than say the Cantonese or the other Mandarin speakers in Chinatown? Ye: Well, I think that is true. Fujianese itself is a very unique community and unique population. If you know the history of Fujian, even back to China, a thousand years ago, they themselves have their own community and the geography of Fujian is like a, like a pot or a wok, you know, big, wide, everything, with sea, access to ocean, they have river, and they have farmland. They themselves is already in the valley of the sea and the mountain. So that community is very close because they speak Fujianese and that’s a daily language that it was, beside going to school and children have to learn the national language which was Mandarin. And the village and the home, they all speaking Fujianese. And plus Fujianese, the way they come to America also contribute to why they have to stay close. Because a lot of Fujianes, in the early ‘80s, some they of course migrate as immigrant, but many of them migrate here undocumented, in a sense without proper document come here. So there is a lot of distrust with the government, even in Fujian, when you’re from China as a country. And there’s a lot of trust issue, you know, between government and ordinary peasant family or citizen. And it’s very difficult for them when they come here, they don’t know who they should trust. Government certainly is the last place that they want to go because the experience that they have with the Chinese government. But then, going to other non-Fujianese, they don’t speak the language. It’s kind of hard for you to go, let’s say to a vegetable stand, to buy vegetable, to a Cantonese vegetable stand to buy a vegetable, if you only speak Mandarin or Fukienese. They probably not going to sell it to you. And that’s why, some I have seen in the past, when I walk in the street, people talking Mandarin, and want to buy that vegetable, it’s oh---you go to other, other store, they will never sell to you. Because they cannot communicate. So it’s that, it’s not that they have a very close, close community. It’s just that they don’t want to, don’t have the chance to explore around, and they don’t really know what’s out there. As an example, a lot of the Fukienese are illiterate and they’re not educated. A lot of them do not even know how to write their names. I have been working with this Fujianese population since, like I said, since I graduate from from college in 1996, and I have a lot of Fujianese client, and then later on, I moved to another agency, which is this one, a Lutheran agency. And primarily our clients are Fujianese, so I kind of know them a little more. And myself is not a Fujianese, but I am able to work with them, because I sort of understand their culture, understand their struggle, and not understanding their language base, is something is a disadvantage, but they do see you as a individual, want to help them. When they see that, they certainly open up to you. A lot of time, I think the community they say, “Well the Fujianese is very close, therefore we can’t help them.” It’s like, “I don’t want to touch it, this problem is too big.” But if you really look hard and really look through it, there are lots of thing you can do, even though you are not Fujianese. And even the Fujianese themselves have a lot of mistrust issue, and they don’t just open up to anyone. Q: You think they mistrust the Cantonese? The other Chinese people, not just, say, American government and law and all that, that they don’t understand, but how about just other Chinese in Chinatown? Ye: Well, I don’t think it’s a mistrust issue in the same way with the Cantonese. Ah, in terms of government, it’s really that’s an issue, because like I say, they come from different system, a government system. But in terms of the Cantonese, I would say, it’s, it’s a, they would see as a struggle, a competition. Maybe you remember back like ten years ago, like I said, or we said, Chinatown pretty much is occupied, fifteen years ago, by the Toisanese, the Cantonese, and there are factories all over the place, and there are a lot of business, and the Cantonese come in, they work, they earn a lot of money. Each week, they can earn a couple of hundred dollar, a thousand dollars, and depending on what kind of garment they’re working with. But for the past ten or fifteen years, there are more and more Fujianese come in, and the pie is that size, one size, but then you have more and more people come and try to share the job, that job market pie, that job pie, and then in this sort of work environment have to create some tension, if you know how the factory system works, that you work faster, you can earn more money, and you can work more garment. Or you cannot work fast, then if you have to work slow, then it’s how much hour you can work. So the Fukienese come in, they come in with a lot of, they say, they invariably they owe people money the way they came, they owe money to other people, owe it to their family, or to their relative, or to their friend, and so they definitely want to work harder. So in terms of working nine to five, they probably work eight to eight. So that has created a lot of tension between the Cantonese and the Fujianese, and often if you go to the factory you’ll hear that, “Oh, the Fukienese taking our job, oh the Fukienese is ah, making us make less money.” Because some Fukienese, and remember ten years ago from paper you will see that Fukienese women have to stay in the factory overnight to work, and they only sleep three or four hour. It’s not that they wanted to. A lot of time, because the boss required them to finish the work. And they also wanted to make more money. And so, both parties probably contributed to it---But the Cantonese, there is no way for them to stay overnight or work twelve, fourteen hour. And they’re a bit harder, because the way they came, because most of the Cantonese come as a immigrant, with status--- Q: From Hong Kong--- Ye: ---From Hong Kong, or Toisan area. But a lot of the Fujianese they come without status, and when they come in, they already owe people a couple, let’s say, twenty or thirty thousand dollars, and they have to pay it back, and make them work harder. And it makes sense. So at that it really create a lot of conflict in the community itself still have this kind of issue. Q: You think part of, maybe there’s a little bit of resentment towards the Fujianese community because they have brought the prices down in a certain way, by creating so much more competition, like they can probably work cheaper than say, some, you know, as you said a person from Hong Kong or Toisan years ago, and because of that they, they’ve created so much more competition in Chinatown, that, that, everything is cheaper. And then the other communities have a little bit of resentment towards the Fujianese community for doing that, like for the buses for example, it’s so cheap, and that has created a lot of wars, and rivalries in Chinatown, and a lot of those are owned by the Fujianese community, correct? Ye: Yeah, I think resentment probably is, you know, is the word, in a sense, with others in Chinese community, between the Fujianese and, you know, the Cantonese-speaking community. It need, in terms of pricing in the factory, because, like I said, I been here fifteen years and I’ve seen all this changing, and I care about this community, and, and I go to church, I know a lots of different kind of people, and they all share about what happened in the workplace in their community. So I learned a lot about these two community, and not just seeing, but also hearing, and what the people do, and also, seven years ago, I started working with this community and kind of realized that the problem even deeper. Resentment certainly is the key word here. Because, like I say, if a factory owner can have someone work on this hundred piece of garment, for, let’s say for forty dollars, why I have to pay the Cantonese sixty dollars? So of course they would choose, let’s say, Fujianese to work for forty dollars. So that is a issue, like I said, job, um, competition. But, ah, let’s say the job market is competing, and the price is going down, but the housing also competing, by going up. So, and so the resentment is that, we live here, and we pay, let’s say, they, they Cantonese probably say, you know, we pay six hundred dollar rent for two-bedroom apartment, and now you Fujianese come in and now we have to pay eight hundred because the landlord is raising the rent and want to, ah, kick them out so they can rent to the Fukienese for higher price. So that is, is certainly is an issue. But I say, you know, the Fukienese themselves do not really contribute to that, it’s not that they asking for cheaper price, but they have no other way to earn money to pay back their debt. Other than selling their labor force, that’s their only way. And I think it’s a, in terms of the owner, and they also play a role here. But like you, as an example, why does U.S. industry, or U.S. business have moved to China, moved to India, instead of keeping the business here in the U.S.? Because of costs. In China, you can do it you know, one dollar, yen, one, one, one, yen, or one shoes, but here in the U.S., it’s like one dollar in shoes, then that make a very difference, because usually U.S. dollar and yen is, one U.S. dollar is equal eight yen, you know. So it make a difference. So it all about business. But I guess, the community also suffer because of that. Q: So tell us about your job today. You are the director? Ye: Yeah, Director of Immigrant Service. Q: Here at, ah--- Ye: At New Life Center. Q: And what, what is---tell us about New Life Center. What is the purpose of the center? Ye: Well, ah, this Lutheran, ah, social service, New Life Center, started a year and a half ago. Like, I, I, I, say a little bit about September 11th. When September 11 happened, my main office, like only two blocks away from World Trade Center, and part of the airplane wingtips that hit the World Trade Center fall on our main office building, and so that building have to close down. And then, the administrative personnel, or staff moved to our office, and at that time we were located in Christopher Street, Greenwich Village. So they moved to our office, and then we have no choice, then we move to Brooklyn, for one year. And we stayed there, and there’s not much happen, and we keep doing the work we’re doing, helping this Fukienese community in different way. But more and more during that year we hear from our client, hear from community leaders, hear from churches and hear from the community, that they not really getting much help, or getting as much aid from the September 11 relief, the benefit or help. Then at that time, right after September 11, there are a lot, um, thing going on, you have a mortgage rent assistance, for the people who have been impacted and living in the zone, and you have people can apply for September 11 health insurance, or get a September 11th ESL class training, and you could get like three hundred dollars back every week to help you learn English, or you’re out of job--- And that help the family to pay rent or buy grocery. That, there are money that is definitely is helping. And also when the ESL course is done, you can go for, um, another seven week of vocational training, to learn some real job skill beside government factory, or beside the low, low skill work. They can go and learn some restaurant or other skill. But it seemed that the Fujianese community not really understand what is happening and don’t know what is out there. So when we ask, the Safe Horizon, as, if you’re familiar with the system, Safe Horizon is, is sort of the, the gate-keeper of the September 11 Fund. If you want to access the September 11 program, or fund, you have to go through Safe Horizon, the on-going recovery program workshop. So when you work with that workshop, then you’ll get a white card, and that white card have your name and your basic information. That white card you can go and apply for health insurance, regardless you’re documented or undocumented, and you also can enroll yourself into ESL training classes, the vocational training classes. But some when we asked them, how many of Fukienese after a year, after one year really went through the workshop. Surprisingly, that, from what we heard from the September 11---from the Safe Horizon established that only a few Fukienese had gone through the workshop. And I’m,, we’re very surprised, because this community ahs been here for, for so long, and if the estimate of the State Department is right, a hundred thousand already in 1994, and each year you have another ten thousand coming in, and New York City is the primary location that they start with, that they end up with. So, if we just talking about half of the Fukienese, and, and, in New York City, so from 1994, until 2002, and you already have like eighteen thousand, and there’s a hundred and eighty thousand Fukienese, but then half of them, let’s say in and out of New York City, you have like ninety thousand, at least, ninety thousand. Let’s say not all ninety thousand live in Manhattan Chinatown area, but we’re talking about half of that again. You have forty-five thousand Fukienese in Chinatown, and this is the closer imm--- [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE (some chatter here): BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO] Q: So you were saying that after September 11, the Fujianese community, very, even though it’s a big community in Chinatown and one that is so close to Ground Zero, you feel that it was alarming that such a small percentage of people actually went ahead and applied for 911 relief funds. Now, is it because, that, are the funds, or, a two-part question. Are the funds available to everybody that, um, that qualifies, regardless of your status, because you said that a lot of Fujianese came undocumented. Is that part of what kept them away, ‘cause they are afraid that if they go and apply, the government might come after them because they are here illegally. Or, because they are so isolated because of culture, because of language, or whatever reason, that they are not aware, or they don’t know how to go and apply for these things. I mean, what is the problem? Q: Well, I think you already said, the problem is related to the two questions that you just asked. I was, I’ll address the um, first question first. You need---a lot of Fukienese are in, in the Chinese community undocumented. But also a lot of them are documented, families are here. But not just the undocumented Fukienese are not getting the September 11th -related service or benefit out there in the community. But those documented families are not receiving either. So what---that is the question that was start asking, calling community leaders, the community itself, and also churches and people that we know. So, we kind of realized that those undocumented in need are afraid that if they apply the government will come after them. Q: Well, is that true? I mean, is the fund--- Ye: Well, it’s not. Because, as you know, September 11th Fund is set up beside the FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Act), for MRI (?) program, you have to prove some sort of documentation. But there are a lot of program or service out there they say the September 11th Fund is contributed by, let’s say, Red Cross, Salvation Army, by general public, like us, who contribute thousand million dollars into the pool, to help the affected victim. The money is not, let’s say, government, restricted money that is related to the government. It’s for the people who need help, regardless of your status of documented or undocumented. Assuming you have, you qualify, assuming you need help, then they can help you. But the problem is, two things. One the, the undocumented people, not being educated, what is out there and who qualify and what that will do to them if they apply or not to apply. It seems that they have no idea what is happening. Two, the same with the documented one. The documented one they don’t really know what is available out there. And some people, they just think that this is not for them. Because, if you know the Chinese community structure, I think that is kind of related to your second question. The first one is that they don’t know. The second question is why they don’t know. Well, if you know the community structure---- Here in Chinatown we have several Chinese newspaper, and only one or two of them are simplified Chinese. And most of them are traditional Chinese character, when you see the newspaper. But if someone, let’s say, for example, from Fujian. You from a country that has been taught simplified Chinese. And now you come here and you buy a piece of paper, in traditional Chinese. It’s like, ah, let’s say native English speaker try to read a Hispanic paper. Can this person understand some of the words? Yeah, like commercial, ‘comercial,’ television, ‘television’. You can understand some of the words. But, do you think you can really understand the whole newspaper, what I’m saying. Well, no. Even the words look similar, and one or two words are the same. Q: Is that because the two, the main papers are owned by Taiwanese and Hong Kong, and, and those two places write in traditional forms? Ye: Yeah, there’s a lot of information, saying you can go here to apply this, you can go there to apply this, but the major, the three major paper that we have, the World Journal, Tsing Tao, and Ming Pao, you, you see it’s a traditional form of Chinese. But so, Fukienese don’t really understand what is out there. In terms of radio, you have 1480 (AM), and that’s a time when after 911, 1480 was started, twenty-four hour program. And they did a lot of promotion, people contribute a lot of money to here and there, and you can go apply benefit here and there. But it, for the Fukienese, that’s a foreign language--- Q: Because they speak in Cantonese. Ye: Yeah, they’re talking in Cantonese, and that’s the only twenty-four Chinese radio station that we have. So you can imagine a Fukienese-speaking person, cannot read, cannot understand, cannot communicate with other Cantonese community people. How, how do they know? That’s one problem. The other problem is that, when we went to um, meet with the FEMA and the New York Disaster Response Unit, and others, mainstream player about the need of the Fukienese community, when we mentioned about, do you know that the Fujianese community has not been served, or there is no service available to them, they kind of surprised, why is that? We have given so much money to the Chinese community-based organized to serve them. Well, it’s simply the fact that when the Chinese community-based organization, say, we will serve the Chinese community if we can get money. But when they get the money, they, yes, they need serve the Chinese population. But is it the entire Chinese population, or just portion of the Chinese population? So when we, that’s how I met, one of the staff that you mentioned, Charlie (Lai), at one of the meeting. And what we’re asking is that, the Chinese community, is the Fujianese community part of the Chinese community? Yes. Is the Fujianese community also in the zone area? Yes. But how come they’re not getting service? Well, some of those people from the Chinese community, based on what this agency, well, they’re different, because they don’t speak Cantonese. Q: But they do speak Mandarin? Ye: Yeah, some of them speak Mandarin. But if you look at the Chinatown community-based organization’s structure, most of those Chinese community-based organization are run by Cantonese, executive staff. Most of the staff are Cantonese speaking. The field staff might speak Mandarin, but when you asking do they speak Fukienese, oh, no, we just don’t have Fukienese-speaking. It’s like, I’ll give you an example, and that’s, I talked to a general. I know that September 11th Fund has given a pot of money to one of the community-based organization, and now that organization has given that, a portion of that money to local Chinese-based organization. Chinese community-based organization. To hire a couple of staff to build a team and try to serve the Chinese community. So they hire new staff, and we asked how many of those staff speak Fukienese. None. How many of the staff speak Mandarin? Oh, two. And are you guys outreaching the Fujianese community? No. Why is that? Oh, because their location is a little bit far west, but the Fukienese is in the east of Chinatown. So in the sense that, the community---I mean, I myself am Cantonese. I have nothing against the Cantonese. But, just because I am Cantonese, I can understand both language, I can understand what they say in the Chinese radio, or from others, Cantonese staff, about the Fukienese community. But the thing is that, if the money were given to them, to serve the entire Chinese community, they should do some effort to reach the entire Chinese community, not just portion of the Chinese community. They’re screwing the Fukienese. So what happen the Fukienese that, if you have no staff who can speak the language, or are able to communicate with the language they can understand? There’s no way for them to understand. So, because of that problem, being that the Chinese-based community organization, not able to communicate with the Fukienese community, there is no intensive outreach to the Fukienese community, and now we see that there’s a gap, because one of the research studies done by Asian-American Federation, ah, a couple of years ago, they reported that it’s only, in the Fujianese community there is only 1.56 percent of the Fujianese have junior high or higher education degree. So you can imagine there’s 98.46 percent, or 98.44 percent of the Fujianese community, people in the community, have junior high or less education, so it mean that a big chunk of them are illiterate. So how can you communicate with illiterate, ah, people in the community? By word of mouth. The way that you can understand. So we saw this is huge gap. Even after a year. A year later. September 11th , and we move from Brooklyn to this building November of 2002. That’s where we started. Because we saw the gap, and we move in, to this community, and we wanted to try to fill the gap, in the sense that, we’ve been working with the Fukienese community for seven, a couple of years, we have their trust, and we have the relationship with them already. And they don’t, and then too, for us, as a Chinese community-based organization, because we are Lutheran. This is a mainstream agency. But they know that we are helping them, and they know that we’re church, faith-based organization, and they know that we are here to help them, not to harm them. So when we moved in, the first that we did is to create that flyer that they, we give out to the people, it’s a simplified Chinese flyers, with simplified Chinese characters, and with simple words, that even low-education immigrant can understand, so try to tell them who we are, what we intend to do, and what kind of service we can provide to them. So that’s how the word get out to the community, and then the Fukienese community start coming, a dozen of them, two dozen of them. We propose, in one year, starting November 2002 to November of 2003, we proposed to serve one hundred families, because we only got one small grant for the Lutheran Disaster Response New York. So it’s called LDRNY. We got a small grant to start this program, and we started with two staff. Just two staff. And to help this community, and we have a Fukienese staff, primarily do outreach education. And that’s how we started, and the people come and within three month, and we already serve four hundred client in three months, and by ninth month, we have served a thousand, two hundred client. So it’s so far more what we budgeted or to planned to serve. You know, you see the need of this community is so, so big. Q: Now you’re, the church here serves everybody, not just Fujianese. Ye: Oh, yes. The church itself is a Cantonese-based church, and we, we, ah, proposed to serve the Fujianese community with a grant that we requested from LDRNY, because they allow the community-based organization already serving the Cantonese community, already because they speak the same language, they been serving them, that community for a long time, but the Fujianese is simply, is still covered by dust. It’s like a, September 11th dust still covered this community. The people still don’t see the need of the community, or even they see, probably they don’t really care. So that’s why, when I talking to Charlie Lai about the need of this community, he have the passion for that. I call them “underserved community,” and Charlie Lai called, actually probably “unserved community.” It’s so realistic, and how come a year later, you have thousand, ten of thousand of Cantonese already got a white card, already finished all those training program, and already got all the help and money, mortgage rental assistance---everything that they can apply, they already apply. They even applying for, you know, purifier and air conditioner, everything they can apply, they already apply. For the Fukienese they still have no clue what is happening in the community. So that’s why I call them ‘unserved community.’ Q: So it, it seems the main problem is language, here. That is, keeping the Fujianese community isolated, and it seems to me, perhaps, that they should not just be training to speak English, but maybe Cantonese. Is that, has that ever been thought of, so that the Fukienese can assimilate into Chinatown, a little bit more? Ye: But you say, try to not teach them only English, but teach them---- Q: ---A little bit of Cantonese--- Ye: Cantonese. Q: ----So they can survive in Chinatown better. Ye: Right, but I ask you a question. In Chinatown itself, how many Cantonese restaurant you have, or how many Fujianese restaurant you have? If, like, you try to, they say, if entire U.S. move, population move to China, and then you tell China, say, now you should learn English, so that you can communicate with us, don’t you think we should think the other way around? The people coming to Chinatown, most of them are just worker, or business owner, but people who live in Chinatown, majority of them are Fukienese. Think about it. Why do we have to ask the Fukienese to learn Cantonese, to try to fit in, why not the Cantonese try to learn Mandarin? We’re not even asking them to learn Fukienese. Mandarin is the national language of the Q: ---Of China--- YE: ---China, which is the official language. Everybody should know, as a citizen of, let’s say, Chinese, or if you call yourself, Chinese-American, it might be a good idea to just learn Mandarin, right, to help them. For immigrant coming in, like Fukienese, they already struggle, try to survive, and now you’re asking them to learn Cantonese to try to fit in. Now you’re asking a, monk to give you some hair. It’s very, very, difficult. So I think the community-based agency, they themselves have a mission to serve the Chinese community. When you serve, as you try to come out, whatever way you can, to help. Not to ask the people who come to you to help, ask for help, then you have to do something before we help you, let’s say if you want, like in buy your vegetable, example. If you want, if you want to buy vegetable from me, you have to learn Cantonese. If you don’t learn Cantonese, I’m not going to sell you a vegetable. I think that’s, the other way around. This is business, right? So the business owner, just say, oh, if I want to do this business, I should learn Mandarin, and so that I can have more customer. So, I think the mentality that, I mean the question that you ask, probably allows those Cantonese community leaders probably thinking the same. Why they don’t learn, ah, Cantonese. That’s the same mentality, but that’s the problem, because the community is so huge. You talk about four, let’s say, you know, minimum instrument, you talk about forty-five thousand Fukienese, and you ask all of them to try to learn Cantonese. Don’t you think that a little bit tough? Yeah, it is tough. Instead of asking them to learn about ways as a provider to learn the language and try to serve them. And I think that’s the issue here, with this community, and I think the resentment that we talk about before, that between this Cantonese and the Fukienese community, that is still playing a big part of that. And also the language barrier is one thing, but the Fukienese community need, what do they need is education. If so many people are illiterate, mean that the way they process information, it could be very slow, or very uneasy. So when you try to explain to them, the benefit that you apply, the September 11th benefit, is not related to government, but they still think that it’s related, then how can you help them to take the fear away? Simple, you educate them and give them some concrete information. And say, we, because we hire attorneys, immigration attorneys. And we ask immigration attorney to explain to them, instead of say, just us, we explain to them, so it take one of the level of fear away, but they have another level in term of legal. In social matter, they understand, well, this probably not going to affect me, even if I apply, and it will help me and help my family. But in legal matter, and how, how can it take that fear away, and if you come as a professional, immigration attorney, and try to explain to them the way the law works in America, then that really take the fear away. So after they hear, from an attorney, their old fear gone, and then just come in, and to apply. So because of the way they were approached, and speaking the language that they understand, speaking the level that they can understand, and giving the, getting the right people to explain to them, the Fukienese-speaking staff, or immigration attorney, and so that people know they have nothing to risk, because they do need help, their family is decompensating, there is domestic violence, child abuse incidence is growing higher and higher and more, because the husband and wife no job, they stay at home. In the past they work, you see once a week, you don’t fight, you know, everything is good. But now, no job, you’re poor, you have limited resources, you see your child every day, that create a lot of conflict, and not everyone know how to resolve this kind of problem. So, by helping them to get some of the help from the September 11-related system, actually relieves some of the family tension. And that we’re seeing that as the need, and that’s why we come in to provide this, try to fill the gap. And in our open house, like I say, the New Life Center open house on December 12th, and there’s hundred of community people from the community and from the city, and from the federal, labor department, and other people came, and we already said to all the public, we’re here not to compete, but we’re here to try to fill the gap, we try to build a bridge, so that the community-based, Chinese community-based organization can use us as a bridge to reach this Fukienese community. And that’s what we’re trying to do. And until now, we’re still doing that, and we have referred hundreds of clients to the Chinese-based community. And in some ways we screen them, they understand Mandarin. They have staff in their agency who can speak Mandarin, and we’re trying to refer them. But of course, if they don’t speak Mandarin, you know, and they speak Fukienese, and those agency have no Fukienese-speaking staff, why should we refer them, so that when we try to help them, whatever way we can, with the limited resources. Q: Are you still being funded by any 911 money? Ye: Well, after today, today is March 11th---- Q: ---Eleventh--- Ye: Two thousand and four--- Q: ---Four--- Ye: ---Um, we still get funded by September 11th Fund. We understand that our program had been closed because limited funding that have September 11th fund left. But since we started New Life Center, and we served this Fujianese community, with that small grant, grant of money from this LDNRY, is a private foundation, is a Lutheran foundation as a matter of fact, that we started and we sort of surpassed the number that we anticipated to serve in one year, and we have presented this problem to the September 11th Fund, and they also realized that this community is not being served, I mean, as properly, I would say. So they started funding us since last year, and so this year, when they asked us to, send them another proposal, and which we did, and then they funded us again. And because of that funding we’re able to continue to help the underserved population. Q: Do you think there is not enough dialogue between the different associations, organizations in Chinatown? Or is there not a leader that is strong enough to lead this community? Ye: Well, I clearly can say from the political point of view and from the community point of view, I think what we are lacking is that, like you say a strong leader. I think it is a matter of unity. The changes to Chinatown, you have, you probably have a couple of population. One, the people from different borough come to work , and you have lots of business owner, which involve this group, does not live in Chinatown. But then you have lots of resident in Chinatown, and, one, a big part of that restaurant is the Fujianese community. But Fujianese immigrant community is, that is, so, so, new to this country, they don’t even know what the law is. It’s kind of hard for them to get into the politic arena, but a lot of Cantonese have been here for so long they know what they can do to voice out for the Chinese community. But a lot of time, our voice has been split. You look at the history, how in Chinatown, we have candidates who come to run for city councilman, or city councilwoman. You have three candidates and try to spread the same amount of votes, among this same community. But in the end, none of them win, so who win? They say this time Ellen Garson win again. But from history, and if you really talk about Chinese, Chinatown history, I think ourselves, Chinese have to reflect and how to really think what is the best interest of the Chinatown. It’s not what is the best interest of my self or my group. It’s the entire Chinatown. So if we, if we, have small voices from here, from there, from there, those, they politician first they will not hear you. It’s true, the community if not working together, the energy and the force, is limited. So if we have a, say strong leader in Chinese community. Let’s say you have hundreds of associations in Chinatown, could we say, Toisanese, Cantonese, Fukienese, or other, in northern part of China, and you have CCBA, you have so many association, but you know, if this organization united, but not just by name, united as a one identity and listen to one voice, instead of just talking here and there, you have a better chance in term of a political arena, in term of how to put a community together. Look, Chinatown is a closer immigrant community to Ground Zero. But how come their resources is so limited to come down to Chinatown, if you really do a research study, compared to money that the, let’s say the September 11th Fund have, the Salvation Army and Red Cross receive. How, how many percent of that money really divert to the Chinese community to rebuild Chinatown? We’ve taught so many to rebuild Chinatown. But how much of the money really come into Chinatown, to help our community, to help the people being affected, impacted? If you look at the number is significantly smaller, significantly small. Why is that? Well, because Chinatown is part of, I want to say part of lower east side. From years, I mean, I would say as a Chinese, I would say it’s part of lower east side in need, because each community have their own small mountain, and each association, on top of that small mountain, have their fire. But then this, small fires like is one candle, you can not really make much difference, but if you imagine you put all the small mountain together, you got a big mountain, and you put all the small fire together, then you see this huge mountain of fire. Don’t you think the whole Tri-State Area will see your area is a fire? Right? World Trade Center got hit. The whole world know. Why? Because it’s so tall, so famous, and it got hit. The smoke goes sky high, high. And the whole world will see it. But imagine if one building in China get a fire, maybe the people who live in Brooklyn have no idea, or people who live in the east of Chinatown will have no idea that East Broadway have a building that just burned down, right? So I think it’s a matter of pulling together as one community and then speak out for the community, but at this time, personally I feel that we did not really speak out as one community, we just here and there, and that’s why our community has not been served properly. Q: But we, what is the thing that you think can unite us, because it’s from, it sounds like language does not unite us, there’s all---from writing to speaking, is all over the place, so what is the main thing that you think this community can agree on, to come together on? Ye: As long as you identify yourselves, as a Chinese community, or as a Chinese-American, with that word, “Chinese,” you already have a base to start with. If you consider yourself Chinese, then you can communicate in the sense that U.N. (United Nations). How come the U.N. can function? Is it all the U.N. people, or the representative of the U.N., speak the same language? No, they don’t speak the same language, but they have the same mission. They all, together, as a one identity, we’re the United Nations, we come from different part of world, speak different language, but we’re here as a one identity. And when you have meeting, you can use translation. If you don’t, really, speak Fukienese, then you’re Fukienese leader, I mean that, you’re a Fukienese leader, you don’t speak Mandarin, then while someone speak Mandarin, you can use ear prop and translation. All the Cantonese, they say, I don’t speak Mandarin. Then, can, you know, translation. But I think language can be conquered. If U.N. can conquer that, Chinese community certainly have no problem, because you is talking about, there’s probably a hundred and eight different dialects, and we do a talk in here, probably less than ten dialects here, right?---- Q: ---Main ones. YE: ---Main ones. So if you have ten different dialect, it’s not that hard to conquer. But only thing the Chinese community have to realize that, if we don’t reunite, we’re still going the same, year after year, so look at, for the past fifteen years, yeah, I see some progress in the Chinese community, but there is not much have done. Just look at the traffic light down Canal Street; you find the traffic run over a old lady, or old man, because they walk too slow and trucks have to run over them so they can get to Holland Tunnel. That problem has been presented for years. Is there anything have done with that? Not really. Why not? Because Chinatown itself is a land of no one. We voiced out to politicians. And politicians, why I have to do this to you? What you have done for me? When time of vote, how many voters contributed to me, to my party? Oh, sorry, not many. Then, why are you asking? Q: So the problem is people, Chinese people don’t vote, so therefore we don’t have political power in the city. Ye: It’s not that Chinese people don’t vote, it’s that, that, people who know how to vote, and people who know what votes mean, for the community, are not really working hard enough to educate the community to vote. Like I say, we’re, we’re living in the U.S., we have this voting rights. But you’re in China, vote is something new. When you talk about, let’s have a meeting of four hundred people, and talk about politics, you’re probably in the next hour you end up in jail, right? But in U.S. it’s different. U.S., you can vote, you have the right to vote, you have the voice out, either against your country, or speak for your country, you could. But a lot of people are still, even though they become a U.S. citizen, but they don’t know what kind of duty and responsibility they have. In the past, say many years ago, before you become a U.S. citizen, they even teach you the duty and responsibility of a U.S. citizen, once you become a U.S. citizen. But now the so, everything instant, just pass the test and we give you the naturalization certificate, and now you’re a U.S. citizen. But what about the duty and responsibility? If the government is not doing that, then who will do that, and form the shoulder of our community-based organization, or association? But if we’re not doing that enough, to make it voting day as a community event day, people would not really know about it. A lot of people, when voting day, do you think they know this is the voting day, or today is the voting day? No, they won’t know, no. Because they don’t read newspaper, they can’t understand. But if you make it your effort, and try to go out in the community and make noise about this, you have a better chance. Because we look at the voting numbers, it’s pretty slow---ah, pretty small. But we haven’t found more registered voter than the actual voter come out. Q: You seem like a very passionate man who cares deeply about the community. How about yourself? Have you thought of running for something? Ye: Well, you know, I, you know, I thought about it, but like you know, like you mentioned when you started, you know, I’m still young, there a lot of things to learn, and politics, it’s, ah, something big. Because running politics you need a different skill. Not just someone can speak and have the passion, you can do it. You need to have to the right connection, the right people, and know, know, the right people. Really know the big guys in the community, so they can you know speak for you or support you. Because otherwise to just go out there and say I’m here, running. They’ll say, who are you, where you come from? Right? It very, very true, because politics is money, money is politics, and in I’m just an ordinary family father, and it’s kind of, it will take me some time. You know, I wouldn’t say never, never, but I just say that I am still learning, I am meeting people, and now I’m, at this level I’m just a director, I’m just meeting director-level people, but, meeting with the an executive, and other, probably will take me some years. So. But I know there a lot of people out there who already know the whole system, who already know all the connection, and already know all the big guy. Those people probably have a better chance. As long as we pull together. We need to sit at one table and talk about the need of the community and put down our own agenda, our own selfish agenda, and what is best for the community is not what is best for me, or for my wallet. If they don’t come with that kind of selfish agenda, certainly and Chinatown have better chance and better hope. Q: Well, for someone who came, who left China at thirteen and then came here at nineteen, with no clear dreams or ambition, I think you have found yourself in a place, um, that you’ve done a lot for the community. Are you surprised, you look back, the last fifteen years, and where you are now? Ye: Well, actually, I’m very surprised, even though a lot of my friends, my classmates, they also suprised, and how come you can come so fast and so high? I guess the word is passion. I have passion for the immigrant community because myself is a immigrant, and I’ve gone through so many hard times, and once I got here, and like I say, I called Chinatown it’s a cemetery, because I really see a lot of young people dying every day and gangs fight and struggle, and there’s lots of problems in Chinatown, and because my faith, because my religion background, that really help me to understand that humanity is not something selfish, you have to sacrifice. I could go out and do business and probably make a decent amount of money and go on vacation every six months, but I choose to stay in the social work field. When I look back, I really feel that the kind of reward that I’m getting or I got is far more than money can buy, and it’s a surprise thing for me. I mean, I got an example, I, I enter Hunter Social Work School in the year 2000. I graduated in two and half years later, and I did not pay a penny to get that degree, because I get a scholarship from the Department of Health and Hygiene. And I look back, there’s so many people in New York City competing for that two, twenty slot, and I was one of them. How could I, can I get it, and how do other people when they’re able? Very one simple word: it’s because I care about the community, and I have done a lot for the community, and the, the people who look at that application also see that, and that someone can even do more if they have the M.S.W. degree (Master’s of Social Work). So they choose to, they give to me for free, and get this education. So that really encourage me, that whatever I have done, even though I am not really get awarded in a sense, cash, but the system itself is awarding me, and they say awarding, and they give some awards to me. And I feel pretty good about that, and I’m so thankful that, in New York City, actually, the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene have recognized that, and I’m so, you know, proud of that as well. And so that really is a way to encourage me to continue, that one day, you know, when you need it and people will recognize you and award you for what you have done. So, yeah, it is a surprise. I never thought that I would come to today and just thought I would also get more educated and I can do something helpful that can help the people and help myself, but this is definitely is a huge reward. Q: So, my last question, um, since you said when you came to Chinatown, you see Chinatown as a cemetery. Are you optimistic that in your lifetime this cemetery will be filled with, or alive with life rather than, than, a graveyard? Do you think this can be done? YE: I, you know, I’m a man of hope and a man of faith, I never give up something when we still have a chance, and I think Chinatown itself has a lot of potential, and Chinatown also have lots of potential people and leaders. I do see that, that things have changed, for the past fifteen year. Especially with the Giuliani administration, because he wipe out all the gangs. Other gangster and prosecute all of them, sort of kind of die, die out for a couple of years, and have changed a little bit. It’s not that scary for that era. But thing, you know, change again. So what I really think that Chinatown, if we really want to say you know, instead of cemetery become a garden, it takes some hard work, and what this hard work mean is not just probably for this generation from leaders, but for the second generation immigrant leaders. Because if this generation cannot break the wall, to sit down and really talk, ask the question of what is best for our community and let’s work together regardless of what is our personal opinion and personal agenda, if they cannot do that, and I don’t think there’s much we can do, but we just keep going as a way in, sometime get a little bit better, sometime get much more worse, but I do place a lot of hope in the second generation immigrant, that the second generation immigrant, I myself was the first generation to consider, but hope the second generation will have enough skills that can speak different languages, Mandarin, English, Cantonese, and a lot of the Fukienese people already speak, just three, I mean the young generation speak the two or three language. I have a couple of staff who are Fukienese who can speak English, Cantonese, Mandarin, have no problem. So I just you know, want to say that the second generation working with the first generation young immigrant, they can do something much more positive than what we could do in this generation. Because this generation if we still have that old mind-set, it will be hard. But I, I see the second generation it changing. When I talk about the second generation, like ABC, but when I talk about the first young generation, I mean, they come as a teenager, they see all the struggle, all the problem. So if this two generation can work together, I think we certainly can change the Chinatown into a garden, and in terms of keep being a graveyard. But they, they do need to work together and communicate together, in the sense now in the schools. Sometimes, the ABC still pick on the new immigrant, ”Oh, your English is not so good.” But if those new immigrant children pick on them, “Oh, you call yourself Chinese, shame on you, you don’t even speak Chinese.” And if they continue with that kind of mentality, then that’s another war that they have to deal with. But so, I hope that this generation whatever we cannot do, but at least we can educate our children, educate our second generation or the young immigrant generation to break that wall, to live as a one community, and to work as a one community, and for the better future of Chinatown. Q: Well, thank you so much for sharing your views and your vision with us today. Is there anything else that you want to say, that I haven’t asked you? Ye: No, pretty much you asked a lot of good questions, and I think you also, I feel that you also know the community well, and the struggle, of course from the Chinese Museum, I can imagine you probably know the past, you know the present and hopefully you guys will do more to create a better future for Chinatown. Ah, you need, I think history itself can make men wise. Without history, we don’t know what is passed, what had happened. So history is so important, so I hope that more and more second generation and also the new immigrants’ children can have opportunity to really learn more about the history of Chinatown, and to interview like this certainly can help them to understand what kind of struggle, ah, we have gone through and what we are facing, and hopefully in the future this thing will not happen again. And certainly about this Fujianese community, after we have gone thought those September 11th meetings, and with FEMA, with the government official, and federal and local level official, we have told them so much about this community, I strongly believe, this idea of, that if there is another let’s say, incident or disaster that happen in New York City or any part of the country, certainly they probably are more, will be more sensitive, to each community, not just listen to what people are saying, but that they themselves would investigate and understand which community has not been served and why it hasn’t been served. Because, if they’re giving the money out, they certainly need, will need to hold the people who are getting the money accountable and responsible for getting the funds. Because the funds themselves come from different parts of sources, and some from people, ordinary people, and some from rich people, but certainly using that fund to the right community, and to the people that really need it is so important. So I think after going to all the meetings they certainly have better understanding about the structure of Chinatown themselves, so the working group that they have, from what I heard is that they already have a map out, and yes, when you’re working with immigrant community you have to look beyond this group that you can see. So, so to speak, like Fukienese community, we call them, it’s a minority group within the minority group. So really, it’s need to help. So, I think, I think that that probably will help us to understand, because Chinese community is one community, but in Chinese community you have another, you know, minority group, like a Fukienese. So I, I kind of feel that other community might have the same struggle, same problem, so I just hope that those government official, the state and local official and people who are giving out funding can be more savvy and more careful when they give out the money and need to hold everyone accountable. And so that really help all the people who needed help, not just certain people who just happen to know how to get help. But there a lot of people, sometime they don’t even know how to ask for help, because they so, desperate and so badly impacted, like this community, that they don’t even know how to ask for your help, so I hope that this something that I share can be helpful, um, to become part of the history. Q: Well, the Fujianese community is lucky to have you to help them here. Well, I’ve been speaking with Henry Ye, of True Light Lutheran Church. Thank you so much for your time, and, and sharing your views with us. And my name is Lan Trinh. Thank you. Ye: Thank you. [end of session] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕今天是2004年3月11日。我現在在唐人街Worth Street True Light Church﹐坐在我旁邊的是Henry Ye。你能先講一下你是從哪里來的嗎﹖ 葉﹕我在中國廣州出生﹐後來在南美洲待了六年﹐然後來到了紐約。 問﹕哇﹐[笑] 講得很快。請稍微慢一些。你是在廣州出生的。我能問一下你的年紀嗎﹖ 葉﹕在我離開中國的時候﹐我十三歲。 問﹕那是哪一年﹖ 葉﹕1982年。 問﹕82年。你的家人爲什麽決定要離開中國﹖ 葉﹕實際上﹐我姐姐一家當時已經在中美洲了﹐所以我們就移民到那裏和他們團聚。當然﹐中國的機會比較少﹐我想從經濟狀況方面來看﹐你的生活上的選擇也比較少。 問﹕你是否還記得你小時候在中國的事情﹖ 葉﹕一點點。我想我記得很清楚的就是我出生在一個非常貧困的家庭﹐農民家庭﹐總是不夠吃﹐家裏也沒有錢。我之所以認爲南美洲的機會會多一些是因爲我看到我姐姐過得還不錯﹐所以我們決定舉家去中美洲發展。 問﹕你姐姐已經住--- 葉﹕是的。 問﹕在中美洲哪里﹖ 葉﹕巴拿馬。 問﹕所以她合法申請你們去了巴拿馬﹖ 葉﹕是的。我的兄弟姐妹都已經不在中國了。 問﹕那你是和你的父母一起去的﹖ 葉﹕實際上﹐我父母去得晚﹐後來我母親才去了中美洲。 問﹕你當時才十三歲﹐你的感覺如何﹖你想離開中國嗎﹖ 葉﹕就像你剛才所講﹐我只有十三歲﹐一些事情並不是由我一個人決定的。我只是覺得要去另外一個地方﹐就好象是去旅遊。在沒有到那裏之前你並不知道要走多遠。所以﹐我在那時並沒有太多的感覺。我的哥哥也去﹐所以我就跟著他﹐就好象去逛街一樣。你不知道將要發生什麽事情﹐但我知道我可能會要去很長一段時間。 問﹕你當時想象巴拿馬會是什麽樣子的﹖ 葉﹕沒有什麽印象。他們只是說那個地方沒有冬天﹐四季都是一樣的﹐就是熱。 問﹕在你去之前﹐你是否會講西班牙文﹖ 葉﹕不會。 問﹕你到那兒之後感覺如何﹖你不講當地的語言﹐是不是覺得很難適應﹖ 葉﹕是的。實際上的確非常非常地困難﹐因爲在我走之前我還在中國讀書。但後來我到巴拿馬的時候﹐當然我不會講西班牙文﹐我只講中文。這給我的就學造成很大困難﹐因爲那個地區不像這裏﹐沒有雙語教學。這使我很難適應﹐我想讀書﹐但是我跟不上﹐所以只好退學。我用了兩年的時間跟我的鄰居學西班牙文。 問﹕你用了多長時間才能夠自由和別人用西班牙文對話﹖ 葉﹕在一年半之後﹐我才感覺好了一些。因爲我當時還小﹐只有十三歲﹐在那個年齡學西班牙文還不是太吃力。所以﹐在一年半之後﹐我能夠和那些土生土長的巴拿馬人自由會話。在那以後﹐我就覺得過了語言關﹐於是決定重返學校。 問﹕你沒有想回中國嗎﹖ 葉﹕沒有﹐因爲我全家都在那裏，也沒有必要回去了。在一年半之後﹐我覺得已經非常適應那個新的環境了﹐所以我決定留下來。 問﹕在巴拿馬有沒有一個華人的社區﹖你在那邊有沒有中國朋友﹐那邊有沒有中國商店﹐食品--- 葉﹕有。實際上﹐巴拿馬市有一個唐人街。非常非常小﹐只不過是兩條街﹐但那裏有中國餐館﹐中國商店。在朋友方面﹐我想我的巴拿馬朋友多過我的中國朋友﹐因爲除非你住在唐人街﹐大家都是分散在各地。所以和其他中國人接觸的機會很少﹐除非在節日慶祝的時候由華人團體把大家聚在一起﹐但除此以外只是學校的同學。但他們大多數都是在巴拿馬土生土長的巴拿馬人。 問﹕你沒有覺得受到排斥嗎﹖我的意思是說﹐在你學會講當地的語言之後﹐跟別人溝通是沒有問題了﹐但你覺得能夠融入那個社會嗎﹖ 葉﹕是的﹐沒有什麽問題。實際上﹐我上的那家學校﹐那家初中只有一個中國人﹐就是我。大家都對我非常好﹐大部分的同班同學和學校裏的學生都對我非常好。他們知道我跟他們不一樣﹐但他們都能夠接受我﹐他們也歡迎我加入他們的圈子。所以﹐我感覺在那裏生活不錯﹐而且有很多朋友。 問﹕你在巴拿馬待了多長時間﹖ 葉﹕我在那裏待了六年。我畢業後就工作了﹐大約是六年。 問﹕在那以後﹐你是怎樣來美國的﹖ 葉﹕後來﹐我來美國讀書。我感覺巴拿馬太---﹐我全家都在那裏﹐但我還是想多體驗一些。巴拿馬是個非常小的國家﹐那裏的機會也是很有限的。我總是想受高等教育﹐總是想上大學﹐於是我來這裏上大學﹐想多學一些東西。 問﹕在哪里﹖你去了哪間大學﹖ 葉﹕我去了城市大學﹐CUNY﹐紐約市立大學。 問﹕你爲什麽選擇那個學校﹖你爲什麽選擇紐約市﹖ 葉﹕我認爲紐約市很多元化﹐不論是在人口方面﹐還是語言方面。我喜歡這種不同﹐學習不同的語言。所以﹐我認爲紐約會給我提供這樣的機會去結識各種各樣的人﹐不講西班牙文、講西班牙文、或者不講中文的學生。這就是我選擇紐約的原因。 問﹕你在巴拿馬有學英文嗎﹖ 葉﹕沒有。實際上﹐我有學習一點英文﹐但不能完全對話。你也許懂一些單詞﹐英文單詞﹐但因爲沒有練習的環境﹐所以很難說我懂英文。也許我懂一些單詞﹐但不會講英文。 問﹕那麽﹐你19歲的時候來到紐約﹐講流利的中文和西班牙文﹐但非常有限的英文﹐便來這裏讀大學了。 葉﹕是的。 問﹕你覺得很艱難嗎﹖ 葉﹕是的﹐非常艱難。實際上﹐我來之後就馬上註冊入學了。因爲我的英文水平不好﹐我覺得如果我馬上上大學的話會浪費很多錢﹐因爲你是外國學生﹐你要花很多錢上ESL補習英文。於是﹐我決定先上高中﹐學些英文﹐所以我又重上高中﹐這次不單單是學英文﹐ 我又選了其他一些課程﹐我花了兩年時間讀完了高中。在那之後﹐我上了大學。所以在那之前﹐我花了兩年時間做準備。 問﹕你是否覺得在19歲的時候還上高中很奇怪嗎﹖儘管你看起來還很年輕﹐我覺得你看起來比你的實際年齡要小。 葉﹕是的﹐是很奇怪。但我去的是Lower East Side Preparatory High School﹐他們只接收十七歲以上﹑有初中或高中畢業文憑的學生。這樣﹐他們可以幫助你適應這個社區環境。所以﹐這對我有很大幫助。我認識的很多學生都來自世界各地﹐他們的年齡也差不多是十七﹑十八歲。他們並不比我年輕多少﹐所以我在那個學校還不是覺得很特殊。 問﹕你以前有沒有來美國的願望﹖你想將來做什麽﹖ 葉﹕十九年來我倒沒有什麽太大的願望﹐只不過是想多學一些知識﹐多接受一些高等教育。我那時候還不知道十年之後我會在哪里或做些什麽﹐但是我唯一知道的事情就是要上大學完成學業﹐這樣我會有更多的機會。但究竟什麽樣的機會﹐我不知道。 問﹕你的父母有沒有給你一些建議或壓力讓你做些什麽﹖ 葉﹕沒有。我父母沒有受什麽教育。我母親在中國壓根兒沒有上過什麽學﹐她是文盲。我想我父親也只上到二年級。所以他們沒有上學的機會﹐也是這些使我懂得教育的重要性。他們沒有要求我必須做律師或醫生什麽的﹐只是說﹐你要是想讀書﹐你就去讀書﹐只要他們沒有阻止我﹐那已經算是支援了。 問﹕你是自己一個人來這裏的﹐你當時在紐約跟誰住在一起﹖ 葉﹕我來到這兒之後交了一些朋友﹐我和朋友們住在一起。我只是住在這裏上學﹐並不是說我在這裏有個基地什麽的﹐因爲你也知道﹐大多數學生都是自己一個人來這邊的。 問﹕你是在唐人街住的嗎﹖ 葉﹕是的。實際上﹐我剛來的時候是住在唐人街。我住在Christie Street，Christie和Grant Street的交口處。 問﹕這是哪年的事情﹖你剛來的時候﹖ 葉﹕我想是1989年﹐這是很久以前的事情了。 問﹕那時候的唐人街同現在有很大不同。你來的時候害不害怕﹖你對唐人街的感覺如何﹖ 葉﹕那個時候的唐人街同現在比起來有很大不同。在那個時候﹐準確地說是80年代末90年代初﹐唐人街有很多幫派﹐你會看到在街角有很多年青人站在一起﹐那時候是挺嚇人的。我的確認爲唐人街那時候是個墳墓﹐因爲很多人被殺被搶﹐那些年青人看上去並沒有想上學﹑求上進的動力。我就是覺得他們沒有什麽前途。 墳墓只是我當時腦子裏想的一個詞﹐如果他們不改變的話﹐唐人街也不會有什麽發展。 問：但是對於那些獨自一個人來這裏的年輕人來講，他們大多數加入幫派是因爲他們很孤獨，在這裏沒有家庭，得不到別人的幫助。爲什麽你當時沒有想加入幫派呢？ 葉：實際上，我也有想過。實際上，我在巴拿馬的時候也並不是個全優學生。我差不多是在貧民窟長大的，所以也很複雜，在我家周圍也有很多幫派。但當我來到美國之後，我的目的是要受到更好的教育，要更加充實自己。於是，我覺得最好的辦法是在我來之前成爲一個基督徒。這個同你的問題有很大關係。所以，當我來到美國的時候，我已經有那種基督信仰---我有讀聖經，它教導你如何行善，不殺生，不傷害別人，你必須幫助別人，所以我也有去唐人街的教堂。 我覺得這的確改變了我，因爲教會的人引導我向好的方面發展。然而我社區裏的同學或校友教我學壞。因此，我總會有個選擇。這樣，我會知道什麽是好，什麽是壞，我能夠在好與壞之間做出選擇。所以，我選擇了好，而沒有加入那些幫派。 問：你的家人也是基督徒嗎？ 葉：不是。實際上，我父母和兄弟姐妹都不是基督徒。但在我成爲基督徒之後，我向我的一些侄子侄女傳福音，這樣他們也成了基督徒。 問：在你在中國長大的時候，人們不能公開地進行宗教活動，那你是不是在巴拿馬才開始接觸基督教呢？ 葉：是的。在中國的時候，我不太瞭解宗教，因爲正如我剛才所講，只有十三歲，只看到我父母不時地燒香祭奠祖先。但後來我到了巴拿馬，那裏是個自由的國家，因爲那裏的國教是天主教，是個宗教國家，我看到我的鄰居們每個星期天都去教堂，於是我開始産生了好奇心，便自問，爲什麽他們穿戴整齊去教堂呢---於是，我就問他們，去教堂有什麽好處？ 他們就解釋給我聽，他們講的其中一點就是你可以穿漂亮的禮服在教堂結婚。 就是因爲這一點我對基督教開始産生了興趣。如果有朝一日我要在教堂裏結婚，我首先要加入教會。我就是這樣開始和我的鄰居一起去教堂，心想有一天我也可以在教堂結婚，對具體的宗教教義我倒並不太在意。在去了幾年教堂之後，我發現教堂並不只是這些。他們教你怎樣做一個正直的人，這對我的影響非常大。 問：你是說在你來這裏的時候，因爲你的宗教信仰，你來的時候已經有了精神支柱，所以這些促使你去努力學習和做善事，不會讓你有太多的麻煩。你沒有加入幫派，在你--- 葉：是的。我認爲的確是這種情況。至少我的一些朋友離開了學校，他們輟學了，沒有再繼續讀下去，因爲他們沒有父母親人的精神支援。但對於我，我也沒有父母或家人的支援，但我的確有教會的支援，我管他們叫兄弟姐妹，他們會鼓勵我，每當我情緒低落需要幫助的時候，他們就會給我打氣，向我伸出援助之手。 我想是因爲我的信心使我不斷地進步，因爲我只學了兩年的英文就上了這裏的大學，這是非常非常不容易的，你差不多每個字都要查字典。因此，如果一個美國學生需要學習兩個小時，我差不多需要花六個小時，因爲我的語言障礙。 但因爲我的信仰，因爲基督教和信上帝，我經常禱告，每次考試的時候，我也禱告。每當我遇到困難，我也禱告，祈禱上帝幫助我，這的確對我有很大的幫助。當我努力掙紮，生活上遇到困難時， 我也請求上帝幫助我。就是這種動力使我不斷努力不斷進步。 問：你在CUNY學的是什麽專業？ 葉：我學的是心理學，因爲我想更多地瞭解一下我自己。我覺得自己就是一個謎。有的時候我不太懂得爲什麽我會那麽想，或爲什麽做那個決定。所以我特別想更多地發掘一下我自己---爲什麽我就是我，想更多地瞭解一下我自己。 這就是我選這個專業的初衷，但當我學了一段時間之後，我開始意識到心理學不但可以幫助我本人，還可以幫助其他人，於是我就一直學這個專業並拿了這個專業的學位。 問：在CUNY讀了四年之後，你的第一份工作是什麽？ 葉：實際上，在我畢業前不久，我申請了唐人街YMCA的一份工作，是做預防專案的病例策劃，這個專案是爲了幫助那些跟ACS(Administration for Children’s Service)和Center for Children’s Services有麻煩的家庭，或在家庭法院有糾紛的家庭，或其他一些需要幫助的家庭，比如他們的孩子已經輟學，或在輟學邊緣，不知道要加入幫派還是繼續讀書。 這是我所感興趣的工作，因爲我幾年前也曾經歷過這些，現在看到其他青少年沒有心思上學，在街上閒逛。我就是想幫助他們，讓他們意識到生活並不只是在街上尋開心。你可以做更多的事情。使他們的家庭團結起來，共同合作。就這樣，我剛開始是唐人街YMCA預防專案的病例策劃者。 問：我知道你並不是移民來紐約的。但從很多方面來看，你是美國移民，然而你跟其他的人不同，因爲大多數的移民來到這裏之後非常努力地工作學習，他們想賺很多的錢。 在你看來，是什麽促使你當一個社會工作者，正如你剛才所講，在你很小的時候就想付出。 葉：是的，我想這是一個非常好的問題。你說得沒錯。很多移民來這裏之後都想學一些能夠賺錢的技能，比如金融，電腦，或電子工程。我覺得這很正常，因爲他們來自一個非常拘束窮困的環境。儘管我也來自那種環境，貧窮，受限制，當我來美國的時候，我只是想學習更多的知識，受些教育。 但在此同時，在我腦子裏，我也想變得富有。我也想賺錢。但因爲我有去教堂，我看到教會裏的人無償無條件地幫助別人。他們幫助你不是因爲你會償還他們，他們幫助你是因爲你的需要。而且，他們幫助別人後很開心，這也是聖經教導你去做的事情。即是，付出要比得到好。這些正好和我的宗教背景相關聯，這使我懂得金錢並不是一切，通過幫助別人、使別人快樂，你自己也會開心的。有一些事物金錢也買不到，比如快樂。 因此，我意識到要幫助別人，沒有必要賺很多的錢，但在我心裏以及我的生活裏，我覺得是受到了補償或獎賞，因爲看到一個破裂的家庭又重新和好團聚，這是金錢所買不到的。這就是我喜歡自己所做的事情的原因。 問：你的家裏是否也支援你做這些？他們沒有要求你寄錢回去嗎？寄錢給家裏？帶他們離開中國？ 葉：沒有，實際上我家裏從來沒有給過我什麽壓力，因爲他們已經不在中國了。我的哥哥姐姐有的在巴拿馬，在西班牙有一個哥哥，還有一個姐姐在佛羅裏達。他們在世界各地。他們全離開了中國。除了我父親，我父親不想出去，他喜歡自己的老家。但我想這對他也好，他熟悉自己的鄰居和那裏的環境，而且我們也尊重這些，我們尊重他的選擇， 所以我沒有什麽壓力，他們也有提過錢之類的要求，因爲我是家裏最小的，所以他們對我的期望也不大。你懂我的意思嗎？我覺得這樣很好。你有哥哥姐姐，他們都在照顧父母，資助父母，這樣我就沒有什麽負擔了。 問：你畢業後的第一份工作是在唐人街的YMCA，那你工作上接觸的主要是年輕人嗎？ 葉：主要是有孩子的家庭，正如我剛才所講，他們或者是跟ACS有麻煩，因爲文化差異或是語言障礙，父母管教孩子不當，導致學校或輔導員跟Administration for Children’s Service聯繫，因爲他們擔心會有虐待兒童或忽視兒童的危險。我們就是這樣介入的，我們大多數的病例來自ACS，是ACS推薦來的，主要的準則是你必須讓孩子待在家裏，然後我們做他們的工作，因爲這就是預防的含義，幫助那些家裏有小孩的家庭。 問：能不能給我們舉一些病例，因爲作爲一個在美國長大的中國人我知道美國人對虐待的理解同中國家庭有時有一些誤解。能否給我們舉一些中國父母管教孩子的例子，而美國老師卻認爲孩子是在家裏受虐待。 葉：比如在中國，我也來自中國，我也是由父母帶大的，我知道在中國你父母打你是因爲他們愛護你。他們糾正你是因爲他們關心你。這就是中國移民的觀念和哲學。沒有什麽法律規定你因爲打你的孩子就要受到懲罰，別人就會叫警察或ACS。在中國就沒有這些，那時還沒有這個意識。他們認爲孩子是受你管教，那是你的責任，如果你管教不好他們，以後他們成了社會上的壞人，這是父母的過錯，這也就是父母打他們或管教他們的原因。你說的打就是體罰，他們也許是用竹棍子打他們， 想管教他們，想幫助他們，避免他們以後再做壞事情。 比如，有這麽一家人來到美國，有一個孩子不想上學，因爲他們認爲上學太辛苦，而且他們又不講英文，他們經常取笑他。於是他決定不去學校。那孩子的父親知道他這麽小的年紀就不讀書，他才有十三歲，如果不去讀書在美國就沒有前途。你不講這裏的語言，你不講英文，你又不去上學，這就好象是違法一樣。當然他們也不懂得什麽法律，但他們知道孩子需要讀書，而且希望孩子能夠讀書，學英文，將來才會有更好的生活，不至於像他們一樣在衣廠或餐館辛苦工作，他們希望孩子能夠過得比他們好。 但孩子就是不想去學校，父親爲了管教他而打了孩子，當然孩子就舉報了，因爲他告訴了一個朋友，那個朋友又告訴了老師，老師便打電話給ACS，然後ACS就來了，想把孩子帶走，我們就是這樣介入的，想幫助這個家庭，瞭解一下情況。我們給ACS的工作人員翻譯，有很多ACS的工作人員都不講中文。這大概是五、六年前的事情，那時沒有很多的亞裔在ACS工作。 就這樣，我們幫助他們瞭解文化差異，父親想幫助孩子，但法律規定打孩子是錯誤的，這就是爲什麽我們要把你的孩子帶走，這件事就這樣被ACS知道了，因爲有人向ACS舉報了。我個人認爲，每個國家都有他們自己的法律，都有他們自己的制度。他們現在生活的國家，美國，有保護孩子的法律，當然他們有權做他們必須做的事情，但作爲家長，他們並不懂得法律，這就是欠缺的地方，沒有對家長教育的環節。這就需要我們介入來開展教育工作，即所謂的家教技巧， 或家教技巧訓練。我們要教導家長他們在中國教育孩子的方式在美國行不通。如果你仍舊用老一套的方式來管教你的孩子，在美國你就要觸犯法律。 就是這樣，那個家庭開始懂得這些，他們也已經改正了自己的行爲。他們說，我們關心自己的孩子，我們愛護自己的孩子，但是打孩子是違反法律的，因此他們不會再這樣做了。他們想讓我們給那些家庭提供服務，做家長的工作，也做孩子的工作，教育雙方，讓他們知道對方的立場，父母的期待和孩子的努力。因爲缺少交流，父母不知道孩子有很多的壓力和困難，校方也努力溝通，努力理解。父母所看到的只是孩子沒有去上學是錯誤的。所以，這是一個溝通的問題，這是病例之一。 這是一個典型的例子，因爲即使是現在，很多的家庭仍然存在這個問題。今年，成千上萬的新移民來到這個社區，但這些教育宣傳並不是每天都有，所以人們必須要受到這方面的教育才能解決這類問題。 問：你認爲一個新移民家庭在唐人街住和在一個中國人比較少的社區住，比如郊區，會有很大不同嗎？先到唐人街是不是會使他們更加容易融入美國生活？ 葉：就我自己的經驗來看，我認爲唐人街是一塊墊腳石。這會使他們更加容易適應，因爲整個社區都是講中文，他們在購物時也能買到他們想要買的食品，吃到中餐，而且在交通方面，這裏地方也不大。在唐人街，你完全可以步行，所有的地方都很近。這樣會使他們更加容易適應新的環境。 在孩子的就學方面，這裏有雙語或ESL（英語作爲第二語言）班， 爲他們提供語言幫助，儘管他們有些來到這裏時還不會講英文，這會使他們進步得更快。但在紐約的唐人街居住也有一個不利的方面，即是居住問題。這裏的居住空間是非常有限的。越來越多的人來到這裏，但這裏的住房條件還是沒有太大的改變，所以大家不得不擠在一起。於是，一個四口之家會住在同一間房，因爲你的姑姑移民過來但沒有其他地方可去，便和你們住在一起，因此，現在是八個人住在一間有兩個臥室的房間，居住環境很擁擠。這是唯一的不利因素。 但到外州，因爲中國人視紐約市爲“州”，離開紐約市就是外州。就好象“中國”是國家的中心，或中央國家的意思一樣，凡是中國之外都是外國。所以，如果剛到美國的新移民馬上搬到郊區去住，他們會遇到更多的困難，首先，比如說在新澤西或康州的郊區，你如果家不住在超市的旁邊，你必須開車去超市購物。 但很多新移民沒有駕照，他們的英語也不流利，還不能考駕照。對於一個來自中國的農民來講，開車可能是一個很大的挑戰，他們甚至也許還不會騎自行車，然後現在你讓他們開汽車。在孩子的就學方面，學校裏大多數都是白人，這會給他們造成很大的困難，因爲並不是每一間學校都有ESL或雙語的課程。那麽，如果移民到這裏後不久就入學的話，他們會面臨很多困難。就我本人來講，我剛到巴拿馬後就進了學校，後來又不得不退學，在學了一年半的語言之後才又重返學校，是同樣的經歷。我認識的很多家庭是把孩子留在紐約，然後他們去外州打工，因爲這裏工作機會有限，這樣他們把孩子留給親屬照看，有時是朋友，他們在外面工作支援家庭。 當我問他們爲什麽不把孩子帶在身邊，他們說因爲當地的教育系統，他們的孩子很難適應那裏的學校。這是一個非常棘手的問題。這對整個家庭也是一個挑戰。特別是對於唐人街的新移民家庭，他們來到這裏要面對很多各種各樣的挑戰。 問：就你的觀察，在來唐人街的移民的比例上，有多少人真正在這裏長期待了下來，還是說，他們一旦掌握了語言和工作技能就離開了？ 葉：就我本人過去十年或十五年在唐人街的觀察，我在這裏的確待了很長時間，差不多有十五年了，唐人街有了很大的變化。十五年前的唐人街大多是臺山人和廣東人，你去菜市買菜必須要講廣東話。如果你不講廣東話，買菜就會有很多麻煩，因爲他們聽不懂你講的，你也聽不懂他們講的。 但在十年後，情況有所改變。唐人街整個的社區結構發生了變化。瞭解唐人街的人都知道，發展非常迅速的團體是福建人社區。他們大批地湧入，從東到Bowery，南到Houston，北到Catherine，佔據了大半唐人街。因爲福建人的湧入，這一帶的臺山人和廣東人不得不遷出，因爲需求不斷造成房價的持續高漲。 因此，很多在這裏住的時間長一些的人不得不搬走，或者搬到康州，或新澤西，或布魯克林，有一些搬到了皇后區，當前有一些人開始搬到史丹頓島。你需要，正如我所講，新移民的第一塊墊腳石。在我上高中的時候，那是在十五年以前，一位中國老師就說過，如果你能在這裏待下去的話，你此時就不會在唐人街住了。意思是說， 你如果有了英語技能，有了駕照，有了一些錢，你就會搬到康州或新澤西的郊區，或布魯克林、法拉盛。你沒有必要再待在唐人街，因爲用同樣的錢去租房，你會租到三個臥室的房間，而在唐人街你只能租到一間單臥室的房間。那你爲什麽還會待在唐人街呢？ 問：如果你說唐人街的房租有這麽貴的話，那那些新移民怎麽會有錢住在唐人街呢？ 葉：這就是問題的關鍵，因爲唐人街的房租貴到別人都租不起，所以他們只好合租一套房間。並不是他們想要這樣，而是因爲經濟原因，房租很貴，以至於一家人根本就支付不起。舉例來講，唐人街的一間兩臥室的房間需要一千五百或一千八百塊錢。一家四口人，父親母親都工作，孩子上學。父親在一家餐館打工，母親在衣廠上班。你知道在衣廠裏你能賺多少錢嗎？有的時候有工做，你能掙四十塊錢，如果服裝業景氣，你能輕鬆賺到八十塊錢。但一旦服裝業不景氣或沒有太多的活兒做，你也許一天只能賺二十塊錢，甚至沒有工做的時候一天只能賺十塊錢。 因此，對一個家庭來講，賺足夠的錢來支付房租是一件困難的事情。這還是說沒有考慮吃和其他的費用。所以，他們只好把房間的兩間臥室分開，把其中一間租出去，與另外一家共用起居室和廚房，他們每家只付九百塊錢。這樣，他們只能勉強在這種環境下居住。一家四口人必須擠在同一間臥室。沒有任何隱私。這樣的環境非常非常艱苦，我們看到很多很多的家庭不得不這樣做。 但如果你是單身，一間兩臥室的房間可以住八個人，或十個人。房間裏會擺滿雙層床。瞭解唐人街的人都知道這些。所以，他們不是租臥室，而是租床位。這樣他們才能支付得起房租。 問：那爲什麽在近十多年有這麽多福建人來紐約？他們也去美國的其他地方嗎？他們也去其他國家，還是說他們就是想離開中國來紐約？ 葉：1994年，政府部門估計美國有十萬福建人，紐約的唐人街是他們首選的地方，是所有福建人的第一選擇。在那時，1994年，發生了Golden Venture事件，從那時開始，政府官員才開始關注這個團體。在此之前，他們沒有太注意這些，除非哪個當地、市里的政府官員或警察彙報說這個社區有很多營利什麽的。 但在1994年，他們估計在美國有十萬人口，而且大多數都在紐約市，這裏是他們的首選，別忘了我們講過，他們管紐約市以外都叫做外州。因此，紐約是福建人的基地。你可以看到，東百老彙，怡東樓，東百老彙的東面商場，東百老彙88號，是這個社區的根據地。大多數人剛來的時候，他們先到這裏來找工作，聯繫職業介紹所，幫助他們到不同的地方去，安排交通等。 當然，十年之前還沒有這些，不太多。但他們在紐約市有很大的機構，有很多福建人的協會，這裏是他們的總部。他們來的時候，這裏是他們第一塊墊腳石。 的確有一些人離開了紐約市，因爲這裏的工作機會有限。大多數從福建來的男人在餐館做工，大多數婦女是衣廠工人。因此，很多一起到這裏來的夫婦要分開，丈夫要在外面打工，視工作地點遠近，每星期回家一兩次。如果你在田納西或俄亥俄州打工，你可能每月才回家一兩次，要看情況。 人們到外面去是因爲沒有工作。尤其在9/11之後，很多人搬出紐約市因爲找不到工作，沒有什麽工作機會。很多衣廠都關閉了，他們只好全家搬到外州或把孩子留下，妻子和丈夫一同在餐館做工。 問：我有這種印象，我想很多人也都有這種印象，即福建人社區比較封閉。如果你不講福州話，你很難融入他們的社區。是不是這樣？因爲這個因素，你是否認爲他們同唐人街那些廣東人或北方人相比更加團結？ 葉：我想是這樣的。福建人本身是一個非常獨特的社區和團體。如果你瞭解福建的歷史的話，即使在一千年前的中國，他們就形成自己的一個團體，福建的地形就好象是一口鍋，又大又寬，什麽都有，他們靠海，有港口，那裏也有河，也有耕田。他們已經處於依山傍海的流域。這些人非常親近因爲他們都講福州話，除了兒童要上學學習普通話以外，這是他們日常生活使用的語言。 在村子裏和家裏，他們都講福州話。除了語言方面，他們來美國的方式同他們在一起互相幫助也有很大關係。因爲在八十年代初，儘管有一些是移民來這裏，大部分的福建人是沒有經過正常的手續偷渡來的。因爲他們不相信政府，即使在中國福建。 在政府和普通農民家庭老百姓之間也缺乏信任。所以，在他們來到這裏的時候，他們不知道該相信誰。他們最不想打交道的就是政府，因爲他們以前同中國政府打交道的經歷。 但來到一個不講福州話的地方，他們不懂當地的語言。如果你只講普通話或福州話，去廣東人開的菜市買菜就會有一定的困難。他們可能不會賣給你。我以前在街上曾經看到，有的講普通話的人去菜市買菜，賣菜的讓他們去別的店，不賣給他們，因爲不能溝通。因此，並不是說他們是一個非常封閉的社區。只不過是他們不想，或沒有機會到處逛，他們不知道外面是什麽樣的。 比如，很多福建人是文盲，沒有受過教育。很多人甚至不會寫自己的名字。我從1996年大學畢業後一直在福建社區工作。我有很多福建客人，後來我到另外一個機構工作，是一個Lutheran辦事處。我們的客人大多數是福建人，我因此有些機會瞭解他們。我本人不是福建人，但我能夠爲他們服務，因爲我瞭解他們的文化，懂得他們的奮鬥。語言障礙是一個不利之處，但他們把你當作是想幫助他們的人。當他們這樣認爲的時候，他們當然會把你當作自己人來看待。 很多時候，我認爲一些人會說，“那些福建人很抱團，因此我們很難幫助他們。”這就好象在講，“我不想解決這個問題，因爲這個問題太嚴重了。”但如果你認真地看待和考慮這些的時候，你會發現其實即使你不是福建人，你也能做很多事情。甚至福建人之間也不都是相互信任，他們也並不是對任何人都敞開心懷的。 問：你認爲他們不相信廣東人嗎？其他的中國人，不單是美國政府和法律，以及其他他們不熟悉的事物？他們是否相信唐人街其他的中國人？ 葉：我想他們對廣東人不是一個信不信任的問題。在政府方面，的確是這個問題，因爲正如我所講他們來自另外一個不同的政府系統。但在廣東人方面，我覺得他們視其爲一種競爭。也許你還記得我談到，或是我們談到，十年或十五年前的唐人街差不多都是臺山人和廣東人的天下。這裏到處都是衣廠和生意，那些廣東人來了之後努力工作，賺了很多錢。他們每個星期都會賺幾百、一千塊錢，要看他們所在的衣廠。但在最近的十年、十五年裏，越來越多的福建人湧入。這塊餅還是這麽大，但越來越多的人來這裏，都想找工作，使得工作市場的餅在這種工作環境下越來越緊張。如果你瞭解衣廠運作的話，你會知道，如果你工作效率高，你會賺更多的錢，會製造出更多的服裝。如果你做得不快，工作效率低，那要按你工作的時間來計酬。 那些福建人因爲是偷渡來的，他們在來的時候就欠了別人很多錢，有的是向家人借的錢，有的是親戚或朋友，因此，他們必須要努力工作。那麽，別人從九點工作到五點，他們差不多要從早上八點幹到晚上八點。這使得廣東人和福建人之間的關係非常緊張。很多時候，你在衣廠會聽到，“那些福建人搶了我們的工作，因爲那些福建人，我們錢都沒有以前賺得多了。”記得在十多年前，報紙上講福建女工必須整夜在衣廠做工，她們每天只能睡三、四個小時。並不是她們想要這樣。大多時候，老闆要求她們必須要完成工作。而且，她們也想賺更多的錢。這裏有雙方的因素。但那些廣東人不可能整夜或一連做十二、十四小時的工。 福建人工作要更加努力，因爲他們是借錢偷渡來的，而那些廣東人都是移民來的，有身份。 問：從香港--- 葉：從香港，或臺山地區。但很多福建人來的時候沒有身份，他們在來的時候已經欠別人幾---，比如說兩、三萬塊錢。他們必須要還帳，這使得他們拼命地工作。這也有道理。 因此，這個因素使社區本身産生很多衝突，直到現在還是這樣。 問：你是否覺得福建社區不太受歡迎，因爲他們在某種程度上壓低了工資，造成更多的競爭。他們的勞動力要比你剛才所講的那些多年前從香港或臺山來的移民廉價得多。因爲他們給唐人街帶來更多的競爭，所有的東西都比以前便宜。這使得另一社區對福建社區産生一些怨恨，比如汽車票價這麽便宜，造成唐人街的很多衝突和競爭。很多汽車公司是福建人開的，對不對？ 葉：是的。我認爲怨恨主要是來自華人社區裏的其他人，在福建人和講廣東話的社區之間。在衣廠的工資方面，正如我所講，我在這裏待了十五年了，親眼目睹了這些變化，我關心這個社區，我去教堂，結識了各種各樣的人，他們對社區裏工作結構發生的變化也有同感。所以，通過看到和聽到人們的所作所爲，我對這兩大社區都有一定的瞭解。而且，在七年前，我開始在這個社區工作，發現這個問題越來越嚴重。 怨恨當然是最主要的想法，因爲如果一個衣廠老闆花四十塊錢可以請人做一百件衣服，那他爲什麽要花六十塊錢請廣東人？因此，他們當然會雇工錢只有四十塊錢的福建人。這就是我所講的工作競爭。 假設勞動力市場競爭很激烈，工資水平在降低，但房價卻越來越高。於是，人們會産生怨恨之情。我們住在這裏，比如說，廣東人會講，我們花六百塊錢租兩個臥室的房間，現在福建人來了之後我們要付八百塊，因爲房東提高房租，想把他們轟走，然後把房子租給福建人收更高的租金。 這顯然是一個問題。但我認爲這並不是福建人的過錯，他們沒有要求更低的工資，但是他們沒有其他的方法賺錢還債。他們只能出賣勞動力。我想這裏也有雇主的因素。再比如，爲什麽很多美國的産業和生意沒有留在美國，卻都轉移到中國、印度？因爲成本。 在中國，你能花一塊錢做一雙鞋，但在美國也是一塊錢做一雙鞋，但這有很大的不同，因爲一美元等於八塊人民幣。這有很大的差別。所以，這全部是生意上的考慮。但我想，社區也因此遭受了損失。 問：跟我們講一下你現在的工作。你是負責人嗎？ 葉：是的，移民事務的負責人。 問：是在這裏--- 葉：在新生命中心。 問：請介紹一下新生命中心。你們中心的宗旨是什麽？ 葉：這個Lutheran社區服務新生命中心是在一年半前成立的。剛才我也有提過，是在9/11前不久。我的主辦公室離世貿中心只有兩個街口，在9/11的時候，部分撞到世貿中心的客機的機翼尖兒落到我們主辦公室的大樓，所以那座大樓不得不關閉。之後，行政人員和職員就搬到我們的辦公室，那時我們是在Christopher Street, Greenwich Village。他們搬到我們的辦公室後，我們沒有其他辦法，在那之後的一年就搬到布魯克林辦公。 我們在那個期間沒有太多的事務，只是繼續做自己的工作，用不同的方式來幫助福建社區。但在那之後不久，我們越來越多地從我們的客人那裏，從社區領導那裏，從教會和社區那裏瞭解到他們沒有受到太多的幫助，沒有從9/11的救濟金裏獲得足夠的補償和資助。在9/11之後，有很多的專案，比如針對居住在受害區內受到創傷的人有抵押租金幫助，人們可以申請9/11醫療保險，接受9/11ESL班的培訓，上英文課還能夠領每個星期三百塊錢的補助，如果你失業--- 這些幫助了很多家庭支付房租或購買食品。錢一定會有幫助。而且，上完ESL課程之後，你還可以再接受七個星期的職業培訓，學一些在衣廠工作或簡單勞動以外的技能。他們可以學一些烹飪或其他的技能。 但那些福建人似乎不知道發生了什麽事情，外面有什麽情況。當我問Safe Horizon，如果你對此有瞭解的話，Safe Horizon是負責9/11基金發放的機構。如果您想獲得9/11專案的補償，你必須要通過Safe Horizon，一個補償分配的機構。當你在那裏登記的時候， 你會獲得一張白卡，上面記有你的姓名和基本資訊。你可以用這張白卡申請醫療保險，不管你有沒有身份，你也可以報名參加ESL培訓班和職業培訓班。但當我們問他們在此之後的一年裏有多少福建人參加了這個專案。令人驚訝的是，具Safe Horizon記載，在9/11之後只有一少部分福建人參加了這個專案。 我們非常驚訝，因爲這個社區在這裏已經有很長時間了。如果政府部門的預計準確的話，在1994年就已經有十萬，每年又有一萬新人湧入，紐約又是他們最主要的目的地。如果只是算一半福建人的話，紐約市，從1994年到2002年，應該有一萬八千人，加上已有的十八萬福建人，再減半，比如說在紐約市周圍有九萬，至少有九萬人。假如並不是全部九萬人都住在曼哈頓唐人街地區，我們只算一半，那麽就是說唐人街有四萬五千個福建人，這是最--- [第一盤第一面結束，第一盤第二面開始] 問：那你是說在9/11之後，儘管福建社區是唐人街的一個很大的社區，而且他們離Ground Zero也非常近，你覺得只有一少部分人申請9/11的救濟金是令人驚訝的。 是不是因爲---，這些基金---，我有兩個問題。是不是凡是符合標準的人都能申請這些基金，無論有沒有身份，因爲你先前講過很多福建人是偷渡來的。是不是有這部分的原因他們才沒有去理會，害怕申請之後會因爲身份問題被政府追查？還是因爲他們因文化、語言或 其他的因素比較孤立，不知道或不懂得怎樣申請？究竟是什麽原因呢？ 葉：我想正如你所講，問題的關鍵與你剛才提出的兩點都有關。我先談一下第一個問題。 華人社區裏的很多福建人都是偷渡來的。但是他們當中也有一大部分是親屬申請移民來的。並不只是那些非法的福建移民沒有得到社區裏9/11的救濟和福利，那些有身份的家庭也沒有得到。這是我們從社區領導、社區民衆、教會和我們認識的人那裏知道的。這樣，我們才意識到那些需要救濟但沒有身份的人是怕他們申請後政府會查他們。 問：這是不是真的？那個基金--- 葉：不是。9/11基金是通過FEMA(Federal Emergency Management)設立的專案，申請者必須要證明自己的身份。但其他很多的專案或服務提供的9/11基金是由紅十字會，Salvation Army，以及我們廣大民衆資助的，這些機構捐贈了上百萬美金設立了這個基金會來幫助受害者。這些錢並不全是政府出的錢，是幫助爲了那些需要幫助的人，與有沒有身份無關。只要你符合條件，需要幫助，你就可以領到救濟。 但這個問題有兩個方面。其一，那些偷渡來的大多沒有受過教育，不知道都有什麽救濟金，申請條件是什麽，申請或不申請會對他們有什麽影響。他們好象什麽都不知道。 第二點，同那些有身份的一樣。那些有身份的也不知道到底可以申請什麽。有些人認爲這些不是給他們的。因爲， 如果你瞭解華人社區組成的話，我認爲這同你提出的第二個問題有關。第一個問題是他們不知道。第二個問題是爲什麽他們不知道。如果你瞭解社區結構--- 在唐人街我們有幾家中文報紙，其中只有一、兩家使用簡體中文。大多數報紙都是用繁體字印刷的。但對於那些在中國看慣了簡體中文的福建人，他們到這裏後發現買的報紙都是用繁體字印刷的。這就好象讓只懂英文的人看西班牙文報紙。那他們能不能看懂呢？像“廣告”，“電視”一些詞還能夠看懂。但你認爲他們能夠看懂整份報紙嗎？不可能，即使字是非常相近，有的甚至是一模一樣的。 問：是不是因爲這兩份主要的報紙是臺灣和香港人辦的，在這兩個地方人們都是用繁體字？ 葉：是的。報紙上有很多資訊，告訴你去哪里申請什麽，但那三大主要報刊，世界日報、星島日報、明報使用的都是繁體字。因此，福建人都不知道上面有什麽資訊。在電臺方面，我們有1480（AM），在9/11之後，1480剛剛開播，24小時播音。他們也做了很多宣傳，人們捐款設立了什麽基金，你可以去哪些地方申請救濟。但那些福建人根本聽不懂。 問：因爲是用廣東話廣播的。 葉：是的。他們是用廣東話廣播的，這是我們唯一一個24小時播音的華語電臺。你可以想象那些福建人看不懂，聽不懂，又不能和廣東人交流。難怪他們都不知道嘛。這是問題之一。 另外一個問題是，當我們去見FEMA和New York Disaster Response Unit，以及其他主要負責機構反映福建社區的需要時，當我們問及他們是否知道福建社區沒有得到重視、被忽視的時候，他們顯得很驚訝，很不理解。他們說，我們劃撥了這麽多錢給華人社區的服務機構。那些華人社區的組織都講如果我們給他們錢他們會幫助華人社區。他們拿到錢之後，就應該把錢分給中國人。他們指的是所有的中國人，還是部分中國人？我們就是這樣在一次開會的時候認識了剛才你提過的官員，Charlie Lai。我們的問題是，福建人屬不屬於華人社區的？屬於。福建社區是不是也是在受害區域內？是的。但爲什麽他們沒有分到呢？這同華人社區其他的人不一樣，因爲他們不講廣東話。 問：那他們講普通話嗎？ 葉：是的，有一些也講普通話。如果你調查一下唐人街社區機構的組成，你會發現大多數華人組織是廣東人負責的。大多數員工都講廣東話。下面的職員也許講普通話，但如果你問他們是否講福州話，不會，我們沒有會講福州話的。 舉個例子，我知道9/11基金撥了一些款給社區機構，然後這個機構又把一部分錢給了當地的華人組織。華人社區組織於是雇了一些人組成一個小組，幫助華人社區。就這些他們新請的人，我們問有多少員工講福州話，沒有。有多少人講普通話？兩個。 你們有沒有開展對福建社區的服務？沒有。爲什麽？因爲他們的辦公地點都在西邊，而那些福建人都住在唐人街東邊。 在某種程度上，社區---我本人是廣東人。我對廣東人沒有任何偏見。但正因爲我是廣東人，我能看到正反兩方面，我聽得懂華語電臺裏的廣播，或通過別人、廣東員工瞭解到福建社區。但問題是，如果他們爲整個華人社區申請到了錢，他們應該多做些工作把錢儘量分發給整個華人社區，而不是華人社區的一部分。他們實在是害苦了福建人。 因此，如果你們沒有會講福州話或能夠跟他們交流的員工，那些福建人會怎麽樣？他們當然聽不懂。那麽，因爲這個問題，那些華人社區的機構不能和福建社區交流，又沒有做特別的努力去照顧福建社區，這樣就會形成一條鴻溝。幾年前，Asian-American Federation做了一項調查，顯示福建社區裏只有1.56%的福建人有初中以上的文憑。可以想象98.44%的福建人只有初中或更低的教育程度，也就是說，他們大部分都是文盲。那你怎樣才能和社區裏的文盲交流呢？靠口頭上的宣傳。 所以，我們看到這裏有很大的鴻溝。即使是在9/11發生的一年之後，2002年11月，我們從布魯克林又搬到這裏。我們就是這樣開始的。因爲我們意識到這條鴻溝，在我們搬到這個社區時，我們就有意識地想添補這條鴻溝。我們已經爲福建社區服務了七年之多，我們得到了他們的信任，我們和他們已經建立了這種關係。而且，作爲華人社區的組織，我們屬於Lutheran。這是一個很大的機構。他們知道我們在幫助他們，他們知道我們是教會，是有信仰的組織，他們知道我們想幫助他們，而不是要害他們。 所以，在搬進來的時候，我們首先製作了宣傳單，發給人們。宣傳單是用簡體字印刷的，就是那些只受過很少教育的人也能夠看懂。傳單上向他們介紹我們是什麽樣的機構，我們的宗旨是什麽，我們提供的服務有哪些。就是這樣在社區裏擴大影響，後來陸續就有福建人到我們這裏來，十個、二十個。 在一年之內，從2002年11月到2003年11月，我們的目標是幫助一百個家庭，因爲我們只從紐約Lutheran Disaster Response，即LDRNY，得到一小部分款項。我們只得到很少的款項來開始這個專案，開始的時候才有兩個人。爲了幫助這個社區，我們請了福建的員工，主要負責宣傳教育工作。我們就是這樣開始的，逐漸有了一些客人，三個月後我們已經有了四百個客人。在第九個月，有一千兩百個。比我們預計或計劃服務的人數多很多。可見這個社區的需求很大。 問：這個教會幫助所有的人，不光是福建人。 葉：是的。教會本身是廣東的教會，我們利用從LDRNY申請到的款項服務福建社區，因爲已經有服務廣東社區的社區組織，“已經”是因爲他們也講廣東話，他們服務那個社區已經有很長時間，但是福建人卻什麽也沒有。就好象9/11的灰塵還在覆蓋著這個社區。人們還是看不到這個社區的需要，或者即使看到，他們也並不關心。這就是爲什麽當我同Charlie Lai談到這個社區的需要的時候，他也是非常贊同。我管他們叫做“需要更多幫助的社區”，Charlie Lai稱其爲“沒有得到幫助的社區”。這是非常現實的，爲什麽一年之後，有一千、一萬多個廣東人已經拿到了白卡，已經完成了各種培訓，已經得到了所有的幫助、救濟金，已經得到抵押租金幫助---一切他們能夠申請的，他們都已經申請了。 他們甚至申請了空氣清新器和空調，所有他們能夠申請的，他們都已經申請了。那些福建人還不知道社區裏發生了什麽事情。這就是爲什麽我稱其爲“沒有得到幫助的社區”。 問：看起來主要的問題還是語言。它把福建社區孤立了起來，在我看來，也許他們不單要學習英文，還要學習廣東話。有沒有人想過要這樣做，這樣那些福建人會更加融入唐人街？ 葉：你是說，讓他們不單學習英文，還要學--- 問：一點廣東話。 葉：廣東話。 問：這樣他們可以更好地在唐人街生存。 葉：是的，但讓我問你一個問題。在唐人街，有多少家廣東餐館，多少家福建餐館？假如所有的美國人都搬到中國去，然後你跟中國講，你們應該學習英文，這樣你們才能夠和我們交流，你不認爲我們會有另外一種想法嗎？那些來唐人街的人大多數是打工的，或是老闆，而唐人街的居民大多數是福建人。想想看，爲什麽我們要要求福建人學廣東話來適應這裏，爲什麽不讓廣東人學普通話？我們還沒有要求他們學福州話。普通話是全國通用的語言--- 問：中國的--- 葉：中國的官方語言。每個中國公民都應該懂，如果你是美籍華人，你最好也要學 普通話來幫助他們。對於那些剛剛來這裏的移民，比如福建人，他們已經在爲生存而掙紮，現在你又讓他們學廣東話來適應這裏的環境。這就好象是向和尚要頭髮。這是非常非常困難的。我認爲那些社區機構有義務幫助華人社區。當你去以任何方式幫助的時候，不要對那些向你求助的人說，在我們幫助你之前，你需要做些什麽事情。比如買菜，如果你想在我這裏買菜，你必須要先學廣東話。如果你不講廣東話，我不會把菜賣給你。我想這正好相反。這是做生意，對不對？所以，做生意的應該這樣想，如果我要做這個生意，我應該學普通話，這樣我才會有更多的顧客。 所以，就你剛才提出的問題，我想大概那些廣東社區的領導也是這樣考慮的。爲什麽他們不學廣東話？這是同樣的思維，但問題就在這裏，因爲這是一個很大的社區。保守地估計，至少也有四萬五千個福建人，你要要求他們全部學習廣東話，這是否有點不太實際？是的，的確很難。與其要求他們，不如讓提供幫助的人學習他們的語言來幫助他們。 我認爲這是這個社區的問題，而且同我們剛剛談到的廣東和福建社區的相互敵視也有關係。語言障礙是一個問題，但福建社區更加需要的是教育。如果這麽多的人都是文盲，那他們處理資訊的方式會很慢，或很不容易。所以，當你跟他們解釋他們申請的福利，9/11的福利，同政府沒有關係時，他們還是認爲是有關係的，那你又怎樣解除他們的顧慮呢？這很簡單，你教育他們，給他們一些確鑿的資訊。比如，我們請了律師，移民律師，我們讓移民律師給他們解釋，如果只是我們給他們解釋，他們只會消除一層顧慮，但他們還有法律上的擔心。從實際生活上來講， 即使我申請了，這也許不會影響到我，而且這對我和我的家庭都有幫助。但是，在法律上怎樣消除這種顧慮呢？如果由專業人士，移民律師，來跟他們解釋美國法律的規定，他們就不會擔心了。 所以，在他們聽了律師的解釋後，他們的顧慮就全部消除了，於是就過來申請了。因此，基於和他們交流的方式，講他們能夠聽懂的話，使用他們能夠懂得的語言，安排合適的人跟他們解釋，通過講福州話的員工，或移民律師，這樣他們才知道沒有任何損失，因爲他們的確需要幫助。他們的家庭也存在各種各樣的危機，家庭暴力、虐待兒童事件越來越多，因爲夫婦都沒有工作，只好待在家裏。以前他們都有做工，每個星期只見一次面，沒有什麽好吵的，一切都很好。但現在失去了工作，家裏又不富裕，只有有限的積蓄，天天看到孩子，這産生了很多矛盾，並不是每一個人都知道該如何解決這樣的問題的。 因此，幫助他們從9/11相關的專案申請到幫助會減輕家庭裏的緊張。觀察到他們有這些需要之後，我們就開始提供這些服務來填平這個鴻溝。我們New Life Center在12月12日舉行了一次活動，到場的有一百多個來自社區、市里的民衆，以及聯邦、勞動部的官員。我們已經跟公衆宣佈，我們並不想競爭，只是想填溝架橋，這樣華人社區的組織可以通過我們幫助到福建社區。這就是我們要做的。直到現在，我們還是在這樣做，我們把上百個客人介紹給那些社區組織。在某種程度上，我們做一些篩選，他們必須懂普通話。那些組織有講普通話的員工，我們會把他們介紹給客人。當然，如果他們只講福州話，那些組織又沒有講福州話的員工，我們就沒有必要介紹給他們。我們只有有限的資源，能幫助他們的話，我們就會儘量幫助他們。 問：你們現在是否還有9/11基金的資助？ 葉：今天是3月11日--- 問：11日--- 葉：2004年--- 問：4年--- 葉：我們還有9/11基金的資助。我知道我們的專案曾一度終止過，因爲9/11基金剩下的錢不夠了。但自從我們設立了New Life Center開始爲福建社區服務，我們從LDNRY－一個私人機構，實際上是Lutheran基金會－得到的有限的資助開始，在一年之後，我們服務的人數遠遠超出了預計的數目。我們把這些問題反映到了9/11基金會，他們也意識到這個社區被忽視了。於是，他們從去年開始又撥給我們一些錢。當今年他們讓我們再提交建議的時候，我們又這樣做了，然後他們又提供了資助。因爲這些資助，我們才得以繼續幫助這些沒有得到幫助的人。 問：你是否認爲在唐人街不同的機構、組織之間缺乏溝通？還是說沒有一個有力的領導來帶領整個社區？ 葉：從政治和社區角度來看，我認爲我們很明顯缺乏，正如你所講，一個有力的領導。我認爲這是一個團結的問題。經過這麽多的變化，唐人街的人口已經形成了好幾個部分。第一，是從各個區來這裏上班的人，這裏包括很多不住在這裏的業主。再有就是唐人街的居民，餐館業很大部分是福建社區。 但福建移民社區來到這個國家的時間不長，他們不知道法律規定如何。他們很難進入政治舞臺，但很多廣東人在這裏待了很長時間，他們知道怎樣反映華人社區的問題。但大多時候，我們的觀點有分歧。在過去，我們唐人街有競選市議員的候選人。我們一共有三位候選人在同一個社區拉選票。但最終沒有一個勝出，那到底是誰贏了？聽說這次又是Ellen Garson被選上了。從唐人街的歷史上看，我認爲我們應該好好反省，要認真想一想唐人街最大的利益是什麽，而不是我自己或我的團體的最大利益，而是整個兒唐人街。如果我們的呼聲只是來自不同的地方，那些政治人士根本就不會理睬。如果這個社區不團結起來，我們的精力和力量是很有限的。 如果我們華人社區有一個強有力的領導，假設唐人街有上百個組織，包括臺山人，廣東人，福建人，或其他來自中國北部的，還有CCBA，我們有這麽多組織，如果這些組織團結在一起，不單是靠名稱，而是以同樣的身份團結在一起，共同呼籲，而不是各講各的，我們會有更多的機會登上政治舞臺，把整個兒社區團結起來。 唐人街是離Ground Zero很近的一個社區。如果你做一些調查研究，跟Salvation Army和紅十字會得到9/11基金比起來，爲什麽提供給唐人街的資助這麽有限？有多少錢真正投入到華人社區重建唐人街？我們講了這麽多要重建唐人街，但究竟有多少錢投入到唐人街來幫助我們的社區，幫助那些受到影響和創傷的人？如果你看到這些統計數位的話，你會發現是有多麽的少，多麽的微不足道。這又是爲什麽呢？ 唐人街是屬於Lower East Side的一部分。這麽多年來，作爲華人，我認爲的確是Lower East Side的一部分，因爲每個社區都有自己的一座山，每個組織又是每座小山上的一堆火。如果這堆火只是一根蠟燭的話，根本就起不了什麽作用，但如果你能夠把這些小山都放在一起的話，會形成一座大山，如果你把這些小堆的火放在一起的話，就會看到一座大山上的火。難道整個兒Tri-State Area看不到這個地區的火焰嗎？對不對？世貿中心受到襲擊，全世界都知道。爲什麽？因爲它這麽高，這麽有名，又遭到襲擊。煙霧升到高高的天空。全世界都能夠看到。假設唐人街的一座建築物著了火，也許住在布魯克林的人不知道，或者住在唐人街東面的人不知道東百老彙有座樓著火了，對不對？所以，我認爲問題的關鍵是要團結起來形成一個團體，再爲這個團體做呼籲。但現時，我個人認爲我們沒有作爲一個團體講話，只是分散在各處，這就是爲什麽我們社區沒有得到合理的幫助。 問：那你認爲什麽事情可以把大家團結起來，因爲看上去語言不能夠把我們團結起來，不論是書面的還是口頭的，都不一樣。那你認爲這個社區裏的什麽大家能夠一致同意，能夠把大家團結起來？ 葉：只要承認自己是華人，或美籍華人，“中國人”，我們就已經有一個基礎了。只要你認爲自己是中國人，你就能夠像聯合國那樣交流。爲什麽聯合國能夠運作？是因爲聯合國的人，或聯合國的代表都講同一種語言？不，他們不講同一種語言，但他們有同樣的職責。他們聚集在一起，成立了聯合國，他們來自世界不同的地方，講不同的語言，但他們來到這裏有同樣的身份。在開會的時候，可以有人翻譯。如果你不講福州話，但有福建人的領導，我是說，你是福建人的領導，但你又不講普通話，當別人講普通話的時候，你可以使用翻譯耳機。所有的廣東人說，我不講普通話，他們也可以找翻譯。 但我認爲語言障礙是能夠克服的。如果聯合國能夠解決這個問題，華人社區當然沒有問題，因爲不是說一共有一百零八種方言，我們這裏還不到十種，對不對？ 問：主要的問題。 葉：主要的問題。如果只有十種不同的方言，這還不算是一個克服不了的困難。但華人社區需要認識到的唯一的問題是，如果我們不團結，我們永遠是老樣子，年復一年，在過去的十五年裏，我看到華人社區的一些發展，但發展還是不大。比如說Canal Street的交通燈，你經常看到有車撞到老年人，因爲他們行動緩慢，而那些車輛又趕著過Holland Tunnel。這個問題已經提出有好幾年了。這種情況有沒有得到改善？沒有。爲什麽沒有？因爲唐人街本身就沒有人管。我們反映給了政府官員。那政府官員說，我爲什麽要爲你們做這些？你們爲我做了些什麽？在我競選的時候，有多少人選了我，選了我的黨？哦，對不起，不多。那你現在又爲什麽來找我？ 問：那問題還是我們，華人不投票，因此我們在市里形成不了一股政治勢力。 葉：也不是說華人不投票，而是懂得投票的人，知道投票會對社區帶來影響的人沒有盡力去教育民衆去投票。我總是說，我們是在美國生活，我們有選舉的權利。但對那些從中國來的人來講，投票還是一件新鮮的事物。如果你說，我們召集四百個人來開會，討論一些政治問題，一個小時之後也許你會被抓到監獄裏去，對嗎？ 但在美國卻不同。在美國，你可以投票，你有投票的權利，你如果想表達你的意見，或者是反對政府，或者是支援政府，這是允許的。但很多人，即使成爲美國公民，還是不知道自己的職責和義務是什麽。 在過去，很多年以前，在你尚未成爲美國公民的時候，他們告訴你美國公民的職責和義務是什麽。但現在你通過了考試，拿到了公民紙，成爲美國公民了。那些職責和義務又怎樣了？如果政府不做這些事情，誰又會去做，成立社區機構和組織？ 但如果我們的工作做得不夠，沒有把選舉日作爲社區裏的大事，人們是不會知道的。你認爲很多人都知道哪天是選舉日，或者今天就是選舉日嗎？他們不知道，因爲他們不看報紙，他們看不懂。但如果你多做一些努力，到社區裏做宣傳，可能效果會好一些。如果我們看選舉的人數，實在是太少。但除了參加選舉的人以外，我們還是找不到其他登記了的選民。 問：你聽起來非常熱衷於關心這個社區。你有沒有考慮到自己？有沒有想過競選什麽職務？ 葉：我是有想過，但好象你開始的時候所講，我還年輕，有很多東西要學，政治是一件嚴肅的事情。從政需要一些特殊的技能，並不是能說、有激情就能夠做的。你需要有關係，認識一些有影響力的人。要認識社區裏有影響力的人，這樣他們才能夠爲你講話或支援你。否則，你只是一個人站出來說，我要參加競選。別人會問，你是誰，你是哪兒來的？對不對？這是非常非常實際的，因爲政治就是金錢，金錢就是政治，我只是一個普通家庭的父親，需要一些時間。我不是說這不可能，但我還是需要學習，需要多認識一些人，現在我只是一個負責人，我只是和其他組織的負責人有接觸，但是接觸行政人員還需要一些時間。但是我知道有很多人已經瞭解整個兒系統，有很多關係，認識所有有影響力的人。 那些人的機會可能會多一些，只要我們團結在一起。我們必須坐在同一張桌子上談一下社區的需要，把自己的計劃，自己自私的計劃放在一邊。對社區最有利的事情不一定對我也最有利、能填鼓我自己的腰包。 如果他們沒有帶著自己自私的目的，唐人街當然會有更好的發展，有更好的前途。 問：對於一個十三歲離開中國、十九歲來到這裏時還沒有明確的理想或抱負的人來說，你現在已經找到了你的位置，你已經爲社區做了很多事情。現在回想起來，在這過去的十五年裏，你是否爲你今天的成就感到驚訝？ 葉：實際上，我是很驚訝，甚至我的很多朋友，同班同學都很驚訝，他們問我，爲什麽你爬得這麽快、這麽高？我想主要是我的激情。我熱衷於幫助移民社區因爲我自己就是移民，而且我經歷了這麽多困難。當我剛剛來到這裏的時候，我把唐人街叫作墳墓，因爲我看到每天都有很多年輕人死掉，幫派之爭，唐人街有很多問題。因爲我的宗教背景，它的確幫助我認識到人性並不都是自私的，你必須要付出。我也許能夠出去做生意，賺很多錢，每半年度一次假，但我選擇了社會服務工作。 當我回顧過去，我的確感到我已經或正在得到的回報要遠遠超過金錢所能夠購買的，這的確令我很驚訝。我給你舉一個例子，我從2002年開始在Hunter Social Work School學習。兩年半後畢業，我自己沒有花一分錢讀那個學位，因爲我獲得Department of Health and Hygiene的獎學金。我現在回想起來，當時紐約市有那麽多人申請那二十個名額，我就是其中的一個。爲什麽我能夠得到，其他人也都很有能力？就是這麽簡單一句話：因爲我關心社區，我已經爲社區做了很多。而且做決定的人也已經看到 如果我有MSW（Master of Social Work）學位的話，我會做更多的貢獻。所以，他們把獎學金發給了我，讓我免費受教育。 這的確對我是很大的鼓勵，無論我做了些什麽，即使在經濟上我沒有獲得補償，但整個兒的系統是在補償我，他們給了我獎學金。我自己也非常高興，也非常感激，我的工作受到了紐約市，實際上是Department of Health and Mental Hygiene的肯定，我自己也以此爲榮。這也鼓勵我繼續努力，有一天，如果你需要，人們會肯定你的工作，獎賞你所做的一切。 因此，這的確是一個驚訝。我從來沒有想過會有今天，只是想多受些教育，這樣可以做些有益的事情來幫助別人和自己，所以說，這的確是一個很大的獎賞。 問：我的最後一個問題，既然你提到你剛到唐人街的時候把唐人街看作是個墳墓。你是否認爲在你的有生之年能夠看到這個墳墓會充滿、或者是說會有生氣，而不再是個墓地？你認爲這會實現嗎？ 葉：我是一個充滿希望和信心的人，只要還有希望，我決不會放棄。我認爲唐人街本身有很大的潛力，而且唐人街有很多有潛力的人和領導。在過去十五年裏，我看到了很多變化，尤其是在Giuliani任期的時候，因爲他清除了所有的幫派。其他一些幫派成員受到檢控，他們已經消失了好幾年了。現在這裏已不像以前那麽恐怖了。 以後還會有變化的。我認爲如果把唐人街變成花園而不是墳墓的話，我們必須多做一些努力。這些努力不僅僅要靠我們這一代領導人，還包括第二代移民的領導。因爲如果我們這一代不能夠打開局面，坐下來探討，找出對我們社區最有利的問題， 抛卻自己個人想法和計劃而共同合作的話，如果我們做不到這些，我們就不會有發展。我們只是維持老樣子，某一時間變得稍好一些，某一時間又變得糟糕。但我確實寄許多希望于第二代移民。第二代移民，我自己應該是第一代。我希望第二代移民能夠具備足夠的技能，講好幾種語言，普通話，英語，廣州話，而許多福建人已經能夠講這三種語言，我是說年輕的一代能夠講兩或三種語言。我有幾個員工都是福建人，他們能講英文，廣東話，普通話，都沒有問題。 我的意思是說，第二代移民與年輕的第一代移民合作，他們能夠做的事情要比我們這一代人多得多。因爲如果我們這代人仍然保持那老一套思想的話，我們很難做出什麽成績出來。但我看到我們第二代移民的觀念在轉變。第二代移民就是那些在美國土生土長的中國人後裔（ABC， American Born Chinese），我所說的年輕的第一代移民是指那些在十幾歲的時候就來美國的移民，他們目睹過這些移民的奮鬥和存在的問題。因此，如果這兩代人能在一起合作的話，我肯定他們會把唐人街改變成爲一個花園，而不是一塊墓地。 但他們確實需要在一起合作和交流，比如在學校裏。有的時候，一些ABC取笑新的移民,“噢，你的英語講得不好。”但那些新移民也會嘲笑他們，“噢，你說你自己是中國人，不害臊，你連中文都不會講。”如果他們繼續那種心態，那他們還要面對另外一種衝突。我希望我們要盡我們所能，至少要教育我們的孩子，教育我們的第二代和年輕的新一代移民要打開局面，爲唐人街的美好的未來團結起來，在同一個社區裏共同生活、努力奮鬥。 問：非常感謝你今天能跟我們談你的觀點和對未來的展望。還有其他什麽我還沒有問到或是你要補充的嗎？ 葉：沒有了，你已經提出了很多非常好的問題，我感覺你對這個社區以及他們的奮鬥也很瞭解，當然從這個美洲華人博物館， 我能想象你對這裏的過去和現在都有瞭解。希望你們能夠做更多的事情把唐人街建設得更好。我認爲知曉歷史能使人更加明智。如果不知道歷史，我們不知道過去曾經發生過什麽。歷史是如此重要，我希望更多的第二代移民和新移民的孩子能夠有機會學習更多唐人街的歷史，這樣的採訪會幫助他們懂得我們所經歷過的奮鬥和麵臨的困難，希望這些事情不會在將來再次發生。尤其是這個福建人社區，在我們同FEMA，政府官員，聯邦和當地各級官員舉行的關於9/11的會議後，我們已向他們講述了許多關於這個社區的事情，我堅信，如果紐約市或這個國家的其他地方再發生類似的事件或災難，他們會應付得更好，會照顧到每一個社區，不僅是聽取民衆的意見，而且會進行調查以便發現哪些社區尚未得到幫助，以及爲什麽沒有得到幫助。因爲他們如果撥款出去，他們勢必需要讓那些得到款項的機構負責。因爲這些基金是從各種渠道籌集到的，有一些是來自普通的民衆，有一些是來自富人。顯然我們一定要把錢投入到有需要的社區和民衆。 我認爲在開過這麽多會議之後，他們肯定已經對唐人街的結構有了更深層次的瞭解。據我瞭解，他們的工作小組已經有了一些初步的計劃。當你爲一個社區服務的時候，你不單單要看一個群體。就好象是福建人社區，我們稱它是少數群體裏的少數群體。因此，他們確實需要幫助。 因此，我認爲這會幫助我們更好地理解我們的工作，因爲華人社區是一個整體，但在華人社區裏你還有一些少數群體，比如福建人。我感覺其他社區可能會有同樣的問題。因此，我希望那些政府官員，負責分發基金的國家和地方的官員和 辦事人員在發放救濟金的時候能夠更加專業和細心，每個人都要對此負任。 這樣才會幫助到所有需要幫助的人，而不僅僅是那些恰巧知道如何得到幫助的人。有很多人有時並不知道如何尋求幫助，因爲他們受到強烈的衝擊，是如此的絕望，以至於他們不知道怎樣尋求幫助。因此，我希望我今天談的一些東西會有所幫助，希望這些會成爲歷史。 問：福建社區非常幸運能有你在這裏幫助他們。 我今天採訪的是來自Lutheran Church True Light的Henry Ye。非常感謝你能抽出時間跟我們分享你的觀點。我是鄭愛蘭。謝謝你。 Ye：謝謝。 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Henry Ye 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee William Chiu Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Florence Ng Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-03-30 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation business man Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Mr. Chiu, could you please describe your life in Hong Kong before you immigrated to the United States? Chiu: Actually, I spent even less time in Hong Kong than in America, just19 years. My memory dates back to when I was six years old. I vaguely remember that we moved from Kowloon Tong to Central District and lived on D'Aguilar Street, on the second floor, above some bar. I just recently went back and saw the place, so that’s how I know. I used to be a wild kid. My parents worked in the business of “home banquet.” Back then, there weren’t any cars on D'Aguilar Street, so we kids would go roughhouse in lots of places around there, playing “soldiers chasing thieves.” Q: When was that? Chiu: That was when I was six, around 1958. We moved to Central and lived on D'Aguilar Street for two years because the previous landlord forced us to move out. Two years later, we moved to Wo On Lane which was on the opposite side of D’Aguilar Street and still in the Lan Kwai Fong neighbourhood. Two years later, we moved to Wing Wah Lane. We lived there until 1963. My father was sick and had two strokes, so my mother wouldn’t let him work. They sold the business to their employees and friends. My father later accepted an offer to work as a chef in Japan at Liu Yuen [Restaurant] where he taught the Japanese how to cook. That was a lot easier. He only had to work eight hours a day instead of working constantly. Q: How busy had your family business been? Chiu: As far as I remember, during our busiest periods, we had 22 workers, four to five chefs, and catered several places a night. Q: Was the home banquet business popular back then? Chiu: Actually, there were not that many experts in that field. Some of them ran their own restaurants or worked in the restaurant business. People from Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces liked to entertain their guests at home and have chefs come cook the meal. First of all, the atmosphere was a lot more cozy. Second, it was more convenient for them to chat with their friends and fellow businessmen at home. Usually, the homes were huge. Some of them had an entire floor, and some had a whole building in places like Kowloon Tong, Happy Valley and Mid-Levels. At his peak, my father was extremely busy every day, working from very early to very late. Q: Mr. Chiu, why did you come to the United States? Chiu: That’s a long story. My mother later told us that my father came to Hong Kong from Shanghai in 1950, while my mother came to Hong Kong in 1951. I was born in Hong Kong in 1952. In 1948, my father had come to Fuzhou city and married my mother. I have an older sister who was born in Shanghai in 1949. My father didn’t understand business at the time that he moved from Shanghai to Hong Kong. He had heard people say that he could make money selling towels, and so he spent all his savings on buying towels. But when he came to Hong Kong, nobody would buy them and he lost a lot of money. A lot of people from Shanghai went to Hong Kong for business. One of these men, who worked as a lawyer for the Xu family, asked my father, “Why don’t you come to my house and work as a chef?” So my father worked there, and the Xu family taught him a lot of dishes. They were wonderful. Mrs. Xu constantly taught my father how to cook Shanghai dishes. When Mrs. Xu went to Shanghai-style restaurants, she would ask the chef how he made the dishes, and when she returned, she’d teach my father how to do it. So my father can cook Shanghai dishes really well. After Mr. Xu immigrated to the United States, he missed my father and asked, “Master Chef, what can I do for you? Would you like to come to America?” My father said yes. My father had previously registered as a refugee and applied for immigration at a Catholic church, but there was no response. Mr. Xu said: “When I get there, I will find a way to apply for you.” But we heard nothing, all the way until I was a teenager, so we thought we didn’t have any opportunity to immigrate. Even my father brought it up, saying, “If Mr. Xu was there and had applied for us to go over to the U.S., I wouldn’t need to pay so much tuition and I wouldn’t need to work so hard. If you want to study abroad, go to Taiwan.” Maybe fate arranged it. Before he died, Mr. Xu’s said that his last wish was that his promise to help Chef Chiu immigrate be fulfilled. Mr. Xu had a daughter, Mrs. Lee, the owner of the Lee Travel Agency. Mr. and Mrs. Lee enthusiastically searched everywhere for my father, but couldn’t find him. One time, leading a tour to Japan, they came across my father in Liu Yuen, where he worked as a chef. Mr. Lee asked my father, “Chef Chiu, do you want to come to the United States?” My father said yes. When Mr. and Mrs. Lee returned to the United States, they requested Mr. Yip of Zhi Mei Lou Restaurant to apply for us to go to America using the sixth preference. In less than three months, while my father was still in Japan, the application was approved. My father returned to Hong Kong and applied for our family. We have nine people in our family. My sister was in Denmark at that time and was not included. That was around August and we had six months to get the visa. You can see we had no idea of what United States was like, so why did we still want to come? That is a long story. Hong Kong was annexed to Britain because of the Opium war. I didn’t know that before, I only cared about eating and sleeping, and my parents had to force me to study. I still remember that during the peak of my family business, servants would send me to school and take me home while I studied at Raymondi College. In secondary school, the curriculum stopped when it got to modern [Chinese] history such as the anti-Qing dynasty movement and the Republic of China. After that, no more history was taught. That was in Form 4 [equivalent to Grade 10 in US educational system]. I was confused about modern history. Why was Taiwan protected by the U.S. government? Taiwan was recognised by the U.S. government and protected by it. Why was China called Shina? Some called Chiang Kai-shek Chiang Fei [robber Chiang]. Or Mao Zedong Mao Zei [thief Mao]? Why were things that way? The purpose of studying is to gain knowledge, so how can it be shameful to ask? Questioning is the key to acquire knowledge. I asked the teacher, “What are Chiang Fei and Mao Zei?” Who knew that I would create a huge scene? The teacher I had come across had followed Chiang Kai-shek in the army. Screaming “Do you want to live?” he came at me and grabbed my waist. Pointing at my head, he yelled, “You dare call President Chiang Chiang Fei? I’ll cut your head off!” I responded by saying that I only asked because I didn’t know, and that I could only know things by asking. “You still want to argue?” the teacher said. I was punished for my behavior. Without any reason, I was punished. From that day onwards, I started doing research, since the teacher would not explain things to me. If it’s OK to say Mao Zei , why not Chiang Fei? That was the beginning of my quest for political knowledge, because I had been wrongly punished and that was too upsetting. From that day onwards, this teacher of Chinese literature and history deliberately gave me a hard time, so I studied extra hard and thoroughly learned the texts of Chinese literature and history. Later, when I no longer needed to study modern history, I relaxed, since I didn’t have to study it every day any more. You know why Lin Zexu burned the opium in Humen? Why the Chinese were defeated by the British because of their anti-opium drug efforts in Humen? Why that would make Hong Kong become the colony of the British government? I hated the Japanese who invaded our country. I hated the British who smuggled opium into China and victimized the Chinese. I was also puzzled at why the swath of land making up China and Taiwan were divided up into left and right. I thought it didn’t make sense and was unreasonable. I was biased against the British government. If the British had not victimized Chinese, China wouldn’t be so easily defeated. So that was where I got my sense of warlike indignation. I learned kung fu before. I think I already told her that I lived on D’Aguilar Street when I was young. My kung fu master used to do business on D’Agilar Street and lived in the building across from us. I was a wild kid and I was playing once on the stone staircases, which were wet and thick with moss. I was pretending to be a thief, and someone was chasing me, and I stepped on the slippery moss and slid. “Thump!” I had cracked open my head. The scar is still here. I was about eight. My kung fu master was across the street, and he stopped the bleeding and cured me. In 1964 we moved to Graham Street. The master also moved to the opposite side of the street from us. You could say it was fate. I started to learn the Cai Lifo school of martial art from my master Lee Pak-ling (also known as Lee Pak), who is the third generation of Cai Lifo. Q: Is it because you didn’t like the British government, so you turned to the American government? Chiu: Yes. Since the British government was a colonial government and took Hong Kong like that and suppressed the Hong Kong people. Especially within the government departments, where the government officials were bullying others. I thought, what kind of world was that? Besides, in school, I learnt that the United States was huge, but had no idea how big it was. I had only thought of studying in Taiwan because studying in America was too expensive. But apart from Chinese literature and history- the only two subjects that were taught in Chinese- no other subjects were taught in Chinese in Hong Kong. I had no clue [what the other subjects were if they were taught ] in Chinese. I wanted to be a doctor and study at Taiwan National University. At that time, only Taiwan was being recognized as China. The biology and chemistry tests were done in Chinese. It might be okay if the tests were carried out in English. But when it came to Chinese, I did not even understand what the questions meant. So I failed the Taiwan University admission tests. Since my Chinese skills weren’t so good, and I couldn’t be a doctor, I decided to become a merchant. I wanted to really do it and work my way up from the bottom. I passed only three to four subjects in my high school graduation examination and did not pass the basic requirement of passing five subjects. My god-mother worked for an American businessman whose name was Gibson and originally resided in Chicago. He referred me to his business partner Mr. Kent P. Koo. As soon as he met me, Mr. Koo said, “All right, come and work for us!” I worked as a low ranking junior in the Tak Sing International Export & Import Co. Ltd. Tak Sing International Export & Import Company is an exporter to the United States and Canada, specialised in wool sweaters and exports to Britain, United States, Canada and Australia. My god-mother’s boss, Mr. Gibson, was an American importer from Chicago. With her referral, one of the heads not only accepted me but luckily gave me a special favour. He said, “You may look at the files, you can look at anything you want.” Actually, that was not allowed. How come? Office hours started at 9am. I was there at 7:30am. I studied the files one by one. If I was free, I practiced typing. I re-typed some of the files. Some of the staff members were not happy about this. There were over 30 employees. Some directors saw me and told me, “Do you know these files are confidential and you are not supposed to look at them?” I answered, “The boss asked me to read them.” The director then said, “If the boss said so, let it be.” Quickly, within six months, I mastered the concept of the trade. My boss was very nice to me. He taught me how to negotiate a business, how to get a sample, how to get payment, how to charge, how to get a letter of credit, how to write a confirmation, how to sell your contract to the bank, etc. After the six-month period, I was promoted three grades upward, but my pay remained the same. Besides typing, I checked the goods and worked on confirmation, etc. I worked in every sector. Other juniors ran errands, but I worked as a representative. Others lined up and were yelled at by the colonial officials at government offices, but I would fight back. I disliked the way the colonial officials bullied others. Even though the people obediently lined up, they were still being scolded. I stood up and said, “Let me see your supervisor. There’s a problem with your attitude.” They were scared and let me go first. Hence, I could finish my assignments a lot quicker than other people. I always looked for their supervisors since I was representing Tak Sing International Export & Import Company. When other employees went out and carried a bag, I asked my company to buy me a briefcase. The accountant said, “Who do you think you are to buy a briefcase?” I said, “I represent the authority of Tak Sing company. I can’t do it without a briefcase.” He was dumbfounded and bought it for me. I used to wash the dishes and my hands became coarse, so I asked the company to get me some lotion. The accountant said, “Why do you want to buy lotion? Nobody is as fussy as you are.” I said, “If I hurt my hand from washing mugs, would the company compensate me for that?” Probably because of my good relationship with the boss, they didn’t refuse. If I was determined to do it, I could finish eight to nine assignments in a day, even though I’d end up in a sweat. Therefore, my boss always praised me, saying “Well done!” and gave me tips to buy food. I was only 17 or 18 years old back then. I worked at Tak Sing company for a year before I came to the United States. I studied accounting at night. Why? I thought accounting was indispensable. I could not work unless I understood accounting. Since I studied accounting before, I would test the accountants in my company, as they might not be certified accountants, and I had already started learning it in Hong Kong. Q: Please talk about the moment you learned you would be coming to the United States. How did you feel? Chiu: I was very happy when I learned I would come to the United States. My boss was working on business in North and South America, so I worked on business opportunities in Africa. I didn’t want to learn my boss’ business and steal it from him. I wanted to embark on a new path. It’s easy to do business in America, and he had large orders, but profits were small. My region on the other hand had smaller orders and bigger profits. Just when I was about to propose to my boss that we explore that region, my immigrant application was approved. I had to say goodbye to my boss and worked until December of that year. My boss was very understanding. He told me that he was a soldier in the United States during World War II. Later on, he went from the United States to Hong Kong and stayed here to do business. When I came to America, plane tickets were very expensive. I wanted to do business, and so I had to search and ask all over to find the cheapest rates. Now, if I was doing a travel agency, I would be able to get the cheapest fare. I suggested this to the Lee Travel Agency and they agreed and helped us get the lowest fare. Why? Our benefactor was Mrs. Lee, or put it this way, Mr. Xu, Mrs. Lee’s father. If not for his words, we would still be in Hong Kong. I will never forget Mrs Lee’s good deeds to me and I will always remember Mrs. Lee and the Xus who offered us great help. The Chinese lived a repressed life under the British rule. Even if we were British, we were considered second class citizens. They could distinguish you and say that you still needed a visa to go to Britain. That’s ridiculous. They recognized you as British subjects but not as British citizens. Their attitude was to discriminate against all British subjects. Only those in Britain were British. I thought that was undemocratic. Besides, I thought Britain was a country of thieves. Why? Her prosperity was built on selling opium. They invaded other countries for profit and stole the land from the Chinese. In school, Britain was called the land where the sun never set, and it seemed so glorious. When I learned that Britain invaded China because Lin Zexu, the governor of Guangdong and Guangxi provinces, had destroyed their opium, I hated the British even more. The British youth in Hong Kong really liked to harass Chinese youth. They walked with a swagger. When they passed by a Chinese youth, they’d elbow him hard. You were supposed to be scared. They wanted to make you avoid them. They were that way to everybody. I had the exact opposite reaction. If they hit me, I elbowed them back. They were in too much pain to say anything. I would say [sarcastically,] “Oh, I’m in so much pain! You really hurt me!” They didn’t dare say anything. There was one British teenager who would hit Chinese in their stomach when they passed. When he passed by me, I knew he was about to hit me, so I punched him. He was in so much pain that he couldn’t speak. A lot of similar incidents made me think that opposite outcomes would result when things were being pushed so far. During the 1966 fascist riot [in Hong Kong], there were a lot of fights. People in school were divided into leftists and rightists and I didn’t have a very clear idea what was going on. Some of them said, “We should sing Dong Fang Hong [Red Sun Rises in the East] in unison and fight against the British government.” Considering the conciliatory policy of the Hong Kong government, and the way that Chinese were suppressed, I disliked Hong Kong even more. I did not want to be a colonial subject. If I had to be a colonial subject, I would rather be an American colonial subject. When we emigrated to the United States, we were thrilled. We bought our air tickets to the United States from the Japan Airlines. My father worked in Tokyo for eight years and made so many friends in Japan that his Japanese friends flew all the way from Japan to Hong Kong to visit my father. I also learned Japanese for three months but I never used the language. I had already thought that the airport in Tokyo was big, and I was astounded at John F. Kennedy Airport. It was as big as a world, with an impressive ambiance and a view that seemed to go forever. Others were jetlagged but not me. I was full of energy within the first three days after I arrived. That was in 1971, the first time I saw it snow. I worked at Zhi Mei Lou as a waiter trainee. Zhi Mei Lou was located at where Subway Deli is now- at the intersection of East Broadway, Bowery and Doyer Street. The second or third store, south of Doyers Street and next to a mall, where Subway Deli is now was the location of Zhi Mei Lou restaurant. That was the restaurant which applied for my father. You can say we were a very lucky family. Q: Was it very difficult to apply to the United States back then? Chiu: If you didn’t have the right qualifications, your application wouldn’t be accepted. Why do you think so many people snuck off ships [into the United States] and so many overseas Chinese students over-stay and won’t leave? The American immigration policies were lenient, so then these people ended up staying. Most of the community leaders [in Chinatown] came here illegally on boats or over-stayed in the country while foreign students and never went back to China. Very few were legal immigrants. Very few of them were born here, especially the Fujianese. I remember there used to be only one Fujianese association with a rather paltry membership, only a few hundred people. Nowadays, in the tri-state area, we have, by a conservative estimate, 500,000 to 600,000 Fujianese people. Q: You mentioned that your father applied for refugee status to the United Status through the church in Hong Kong. What happened then? Chiu: The refugee application was like a boulder that fell into the sea, with absolutely no response. When we emigrated we had to report this in the application. Otherwise, I would not even know, because I was so small then. Q: Was applying for a refugee visa hard? Chiu: To put it frankly, unless you’ve got special skills and a sponsor, don’t even think about it. The Chinatown of 1971 was vastly different from the current one. The amount of business in Mott Street was nothing compared to the current Chinatown. There were only two or three streets then. I came in 1971 and worked in Zhi Mei Lou Restaurant and as a waiter trainee. I was not given any salary and I had to pay for my round trip subway fare. At the time, the fare had just increased to 50 cents. Now it’s two dollars. I used to get up early. Back in Hong Kong, there was no such thing as being late for work, although things are different now. I used to get up at 4 a.m. and got there at 6 a.m.. Q: Where do you live now? Chiu: I live at Setauket near Stony Brook on Long Island. It takes an hour and fifteen minutes to commute here if the traffic is good, but if there’s a traffic jam, it could take up to 4 ½ hours. Q: Did you live in Chinatown back then? Chiu: Back then, I lived in the Bronx because I had to learn to be a waiter trainee in Chinatown. My father’s friend got us an apartment in the Bronx next to his home, and I paid a dollar for subway fare each day to work. These people told me ahead of time, “We’re not going to pay you. You can have breakfast, lunch and dinner [with us], and we’ll teach you how to set and clean tables. If you learn fast, we’ll teach you how to take orders.” I trained at the Zhi Mei Lou Restaurant for a month. After a week, an elderly waiter told me, “Boy, I don’t care what others think. If you do a good job and give me a hand, I’ll give you a dollar a day so that you don’t lose money taking the subway.” So I earned twenty-one dollars that month from this waiter. He’s still in Chinatown now. When the month was over, they said, “You’ve earned enough and don’t need to come anymore.” Mr. Chiang asked me, “Do you want to be a substitute worker? I can let you work three days a week. Do you want to do it?” I said yes. At that time, the Chinatown waiters had bad attitudes. Bowls were thrown on the tables, where they’d clatter loudly, and they wouldn’t refill tea for the customers. I had only worked there for one month, but I thought that behaviour was wrong. I set the table quickly. I cleaned up fast. I refilled the water fast. In one word, I was perfect. I’ll tell you something funny. I was a substitute and an unskilled fresh worker, who earned very little money and needed help from others. They didn’t want to share tips with me. They would just send me to the inside of the restaurant [which they seldom filled with customers], left me to work on my own, and sent over the “iron customers” who gave no tips. One of these “iron customers” was astonished at how I treated him and asked, “Why do you serve me so well? You’re so polite, you greet me, give me water and take away used dishes.” I replied, “You’re my customer here and since I represent the restaurant, shouldn’t I treat you nicely?” He was surprised and asked, “Don’t you know I’m not going to give you any tip?” I said, “That’s not important. You’re the customer, so I want you to be satisfied. If you’re satisfied, that’s enough.” Unexpectedly, he gave me a 20% tip when he checked out. The other waiters said, “Boy, we’ll share tips with you.” This is the way the world works. People will bully you if you’re new, but if you turn out to be useful, they’ll want to be your friend. But I left after three months. I believe they would have given me a permanent job if I wanted. But I chose to leave, since, first of all, I had to study. Secondly, I thought it was a waste to earn several dozens dollars each day. Fujianese people worked hard. We could work three shifts a day - eight hours a shift- without sleep. They worked until they died and remitted the money back home [in China]. Their ability to work was extreme. However, if I worked for Chinese bosses, I could not work two shifts. I had originally intended to study, but I ended up not doing it. I went into a college and asked about the tuition and credit. They said I had to study 12 credits. I asked how much was a credit. They said two hundred dollars a credit. I asked how many credits did I need to study in a day. They said three credits. I cried: “Woah! How can I get that much money for tuition?” So, instead, I asked my younger brothers and sisters to study in high schools since it was free, and after one year residency in New York, you could study at NY colleges at their local resident rate, which was a lot cheaper. My father earned only six hundred dollars a month. I told him, “I will make money for you and we’ll pay off the debt first, until our financial situation improves.” My father agreed because it was too hard to sustain a family with only his [monthly] salary of six hundred dollars. My family needed three hundred dollars a month for living expenses and more to repay debt. We owed a lot to Mrs. Lee; most of the debt was for the air tickets. If I had to work two shifts to earn enough money, I could not work as a waiter in Chinatown. I wouldn’t earn enough money that way. So whatever places other people recommended to me, I went there and tried my luck. The first restaurant I turned to was Reuben Restaurant, a first class restaurant at the time, which was famous for its cheese cakes and Reuben sandwiches. I went in there to enquire about job vacancy. The supervisor said, “Sorry, Sorry, we don’t have any vacancies for waiters.” I asked, “How about busboy? Busboy. I would be very good at that too.” He said, “If you’re willing to be a busboy, then we can use you. We need some busboys.” I said, “Okay, then I’ll work as a busboy, and when you have an opening for a waiter, give it to me.” The caption said okay. Actually, he didn’t know my abilities, and was not serious. He was a Hispanic captain. It’s not just the Chinese that have pride. Non-Chinese are the same way. Hispanics, Blacks, Italians are all the same way. In each case, they’ll bully others. I thought, first of all, since I was a new worker, I should give way to others. If they crossed the limit and started bullying me, then I’d resist. I almost got in a fight with a Puerto Rican. Why? As a bus-boy, each person had his own station [with silverware]. Sometimes he’d take my stuff to use, saying, “Let me borrow it.” I said, “No problem. We’re friends. We’ll work together, right?” But when I ran out, and had to borrow silverware, he said, “Don’t touch my stuff!” “That’s fine too. Let’s not fight about it. But next time, don’t borrow my things either.” I learned fast. Next time, I didn’t let him borrow my stuff, and he said, “What did you say?” and punched me in the stomach. I knew I should give way to them and not fight, so I said, “Fine. Don’t punch me again.” He said, “What are you going to do if I punch you?” I said, “This is your last chance. Don’t touch me again.” He punched me again, a total of three times. I fought back using the Cai Lifo punching style, and knocked him to the floor. He said, “I’m sorry, Mr. Chiu.” He didn’t bully me anymore. Wasn’t that humiliating for him? Chinese should be willing to give way, but we can’t be too submissive. Three times is enough. Q: Were you the only Chinese who worked in the restaurant? Chiu: There were two Chinese, no, three Chinese workers. One was older, another one was about my age. I was the youngest, because I was only 19. They were timid and let people bully them. I wouldn’t allow that. I wanted the same rights, and I would fight for the Chinese people. I would not be silent and I wanted to fight against injustice. Besides the other guy, there was one other employee who said I couldn’t handle him, and who wanted to fight. He tried to attack me, but I didn’t give in. Each time he came at me, I escaped him, and no matter how he came after me, he couldn’t catch me. I fought back in such a way that I immobilized him. He said, “Come on, let me fight.” I immediately shouted for the captain. I said, “He started things. If he wants to fight, I don’t mind. But you have to be the witness. If he gets killed, it’s not my problem.” He tried to grab me, and I slipped past, but he was able to tear my clothes apart. He knew martial arts, but I was not scared. If I had to fight, I would beat him until he couldn’t stand, but I wanted a witness. The captain slapped him [in the face] and said, “Fighting during work hours! You want me to kill you?” He put an end to our battle, and this guy didn’t dare touch me again. In fact, he didn’t dare touch any of the three Chinese workers. I have another interesting story. An Italian waiter always stuck out his finger while working. I asked, “How come you act so feminine? How come your pinkie always points out?” He said, “It’s ‘cause I hurt myself. The doctor said it’s stuck like this permanently.” I thought, “Why is this foreigner so ignorant? This is only a joint problem. I learned Chinese bone setting before, when I learned martial arts. This joint problem could be fixed, and I was confident that he could fully recover. I asked him whether he was afraid of pain. He said, “I don’t feel pain.” I said, “This time it’s going to hurt, but if you can take it, I can fix this for you.” He said, “Don’t joke around. If you really can fix it, I’ll call you Dr. Chiu.” I said, “Are you sure you’re not afraid of pain?” He said, “No, I’m fine.” I put my best effort into it. I said, “Give me your hands.” If you know how to fix joints and you are not afraid of pain, it can be cured. Q: Is this Chinese bone setting? Chiu: I said, “Give me your hands. Give them to me and don’t try to fight.” He relaxed and let me do it. I turned and rubbed his pinkie several times and then I twisted it. He said, “Oh! Dr. Chiu, Dr. Chiu!” After that, whenever he saw me, he called me Dr. Chiu. What his doctor thought was incurable was actually easy to fix. Pull it straight and apart, and put it back in its old position. I told him to hold it whenever he was free until it was completely healed. I helped people in small matters and caused them to respect me. There’s no problems, and the person will remember you forever. I have some other funny stories. We shouldn’t let others discriminate against us. Some people always say, “People always discriminate against me.” I say, “Don’t discriminate against yourself, and then nobody will discriminate against you. This is America.” Once, I was in the subway train, and an old white man was sitting next to me. I had always respected the elderly. But he said, “You dirty Chink! Don’t sit next to me.” I said, “Who the hell do you think you are? You dirty pig!” I slammed against him with my butt. He was too shocked to move. I said, “Don’t try to discriminate against anybody. Everyone is equal.” In America, I didn’t feel like I was a victim of discrimination. I learned to fight back. If you say something in a joking manner, I will do the same. If you can’t take it, that is discrimination, and I’ll give you more trouble for it. Hence, I gained a lot of respect from others, especially when someone thought he was superior. There’s no such thing as that. America is a democratic country, and I want the democratic ideal to be fulfilled. Q: After working at Reuben, what else did you do? Chiu: My father needed someone to help him to establish a restaurant in the suburbs. He asked me to come help him. My father had worked in Japan for eight years, ever since I was 11 years old, and I hadn’t had many chances to be with him. So I said I’d do it because I wanted to be with my dad. I had earned $300 a week at Reuben, and I only made $200 per month working for his boss. Even with tips, it was only $1000 a month, but I still agreed to do it. Because workers in Reuben were too messy, and also because the boss was Italian and thought he was better than everybody else, the restaurant was eventually closed down by the health department… It’s really too bad. Q: How long did you work at Reuben? Chiu: I worked there for about six months. I remember that when they had open positions for waiters, I asked for the job, but they didn’t give it to me. They gave the positions to their own people. They hadn’t kept their promise. So when my father asked me to work out of state with him, I went. My father and I intended to open a restaurant in the United States. He would monitor the kitchen and I the dining area. We had bought a lot of decorations for the restaurant in Hong Kong. We put them into fourteen wooden cartons and shipped them to the United States. I knew the shipping company. They packed and shipped them free of charge because I worked for Tak Sing Company, and they treated me courteously. Picking the items up in the United States was fairly easy. I had been an importer in Hong Kong, so why couldn’t I do it in the United States? I asked around, cleared customs and had the goods delivered to my home by a Chinatown moving company. My father and I helped somebody open a restaurant in Port Washington, starting from scratch. I taught them management skills and how to set up menus. My father taught the owner how to be a cook. I taught the boss’s son to be a manager. After they finished learning, my father went to Massachusetts and helped others open another restaurant. My father earned a monthly salary of $800 in Port Washington and also $800 in Massachusetts. I lowered my earning from $1500 in New York to $1000 over there. I was willing to earn less since I wanted to be with my father, to strengthen our relationship and also to take care of him. Later on, my father went to Boston alone because they only needed one cook. I went back to New York and saw that Reuben Restaurant was closed, but my colleagues said it would reopen soon. Fulton had screamed at the sanitation department and he thought he was better than anybody else. Unexpectedly, the inspector put a warrant [notice] to close the restaurant at once. They had to clear the violations to reopen. I helped them reopen but the business dropped drastically. After one week, my father asked me, “Why don’t you work here? There’s a vacancy at the Peking Garden in Lexington City, Massachusetts. I worked there as a waiter. I have another story. Once, I was almost mugged while waiting for a long distance Continental bus from Washington Heights to Boston. I tried to get away from him, but he tried to get close, and so I got in a fighting posture. Luckily, the bus arrived, and I jumped on board and escaped. I was robbed twice. The first time was in 1971 when I was a waiter trainee at Zhi Mei Lou Restaurant. I was waiting for the restaurant to open early in the morning. Three big black guys tried to grab me around my neck and pull me to the staircase. I was small but very nimble. I blocked them with my hands and escaped. I made a gesture indicating I was ready to fight. Suddenly, they said, “Oh, we were just playing around.” I was really surprised, but it turned out there was a policeman in front of us. I immediately told the policeman, “These people want to rob me.” The police said, “They haven’t done anything yet.” I was angry and yelled, “Robbery! Robbery!” But no one cared. I was mad. Why didn’t Chinese people help other Chinese? Why didn’t we unite together? Why do we let others bully us? The three black guys glared at me the whole time, but it didn’t matter. When Zhi Mei Lou restaurant opened, I went in to work. I did not see them again. Oftentimes, when Chinese were robbed, no one offered any help, because they thought they had no status. In the old Chinese community, no one would care for you. There was a lot of garbage and it was filthy. Some people would even say the Chinese liked to look slovenly in order to get welfare. If that was true, Chinatown would be so prosperous and have such a huge increase in people during these intervening years. After the 9/11 tragedy, it was much worse for a while, but compared to 32 years ago, Chinese people have become stronger and self-sufficient. The Confucius Plaza, Chatham Square, Chatham Green, CITIC Ka Wah Bank and Wing Ming Building [at 2 Mott Street] are all good examples. We Chinese built them ourselves. Also, we have Heng Tung Building on Henry Street. So if we continue this way, Chinatown will once again be prosperous. Yes, 9/11 has victimised Chinatown. If the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association [CCBA], the Fujian Association and the Hakka Association could come together and promote Chinatown, then Chinatown can be revitalised. Q: How was Chinatown back then? Chiu: 32 years ago, Chinatown was rotten and not as booming as it is now. Chinatown has developed from a bad place to become a satellite town. If you don’t believe me, you can walk around Mott Street, Broadway, East Broadway and Grand Street. Look at the grocery, fish, meat and gift stores. Yes, the aftermath of 9/11 was a blow to Chinatown. The state of Chinatown before 9/11 was two or three fold more prosperous than what it is now. Of course, for Chinatown to keep growing, to get results, we need investments from the Federal, State and City government and to work together as a team. We also need continuous assistance from Lower Manhattan Development Corporation (LMDC), I Love New York, Empire State, and so on. It’s not enough to have people work hard or to make financial investments. I believe in the Chinese proverb “the wool comes from the lamb”- we have to pay for our own expenses. We are not trying to take a lot from the welfare [system]. We only need to give out more. With the Chinese spirit, we strive to become stronger. We sustain ourselves. We work together as a team. These factors will raise up the current status of Chinese people. I also notice that the officials have stopped being indifferent towards Chinatown and now show concern for the Chinese community. We have to thank the new immigrants who have made us a larger constituency. If we weren’t a large constituency, we wouldn’t attract so much attention now from politicians. I hope both new and former immigrants will cooperate and improve the community, and make this community more prosperous. The government should also help our community. (Side 2 of tape) Q: Mr. Chiu, I understand that you do a lot of business. How did 9/11 affect your business? Chiu: I have been in the United States for 32 years. I worked in Chinatown for 20 years. Why was I away from Chinatown for 10 years and not develop any business in Chinatown? It’s because Chinatown was too rotten and sparsely populated, with people being bullied. Nobody cared when you were mugged. I thought it was a cruel place and I didn’t like coming there. I went with my father to Massachusetts. It also had a Chinatown but was not as busy as in New York, with few Chinese restaurants. Two years after we came to the United States, we cleared all my father’s debts and borrowed money again to plan for our future. With our friends as references, the same Uncle Zheng who rented us an apartment helped us to open a take-out restaurant in Setauket. My father was in charge of the kitchen. I took care of the front and counter. I guess it was fate. The Chinese restaurant was in the suburbs and was not popular. We had to educate the residents about Chinese food. Thank God I know English. I had to introduce and promote Chinese food [to the people there]. Just when we started, my father died of heart attack. He had been in America for less than three years. The heavy burden of running the restaurant fell on my shoulders. I had to take care of both the kitchen and the front. In the beginning, I could not cook. Back when I had been in Hong Kong, I had done some fundraising events and cooked a few dishes for Caritas Youth Centre in Hong Kong with my parents giving me instructions. So the dishes that my parents taught me I could cook fairly well. I had only been with my father here for a short amount of time. I had not completely mastered cook. Besides a few of my dad’s good friends, I didn’t know anybody in the United States. I had to do everything by myself. I struggled on my own. I had to sustain myself. For 30 years in the United States, my father had wanted me to receive a United States education and work hard for a brighter future. He also had hoped that I could make a better life in America than we had in Hong Kong. Following these two principles, we had refused to take a single penny of welfare from the government, even when we were struggling. The government had once offered us help. We declined it. We did not want help. Instead, we strived hard - as my father once said, “If we grow the food ourselves, it tastes sweeter.” I have stuck to his principle all the time. My mother was distraught at my father’s early death. She had to watch over us, and she couldn’t work. My mother had married him at an early age, and accompanied him to Shanghai. Two years later, she gave birth to me in Hong Kong. When I was eight or nine, my father went to Japan and worked there for eight years. During all these years, my mother met my father for only short periods of time. While in the United States, my mother expected to spend much more time with him. We thought we would be a happy family. But tragedy struck us, and my father died young. Although insurance has long been popular in the United States, we never took out a policy. We, the Chinese, thought that it was unlucky to mention death and didn’t want to hear anything about it. We would rather insure ourselves by having more savings. I didn’t even understand the concept of insurance until I was running the restaurant. The agent of an insurance company was a customer in my restaurant. He asked, “How come we don’t see the fat guy (he didn’t know that was my father) cooking any more?” I told him about the tragedy. I said he was my father, and he had just passed away. He said, “Oh, I’m so sorry. Oh, did he have any life insurance?” I said no. He didn’t believe in it. He asked, “Why not?” I said in Hong Kong, people weren’t interested in that. We talked about the concept of insurance. He said one thing, which hit me like a blow. He said, “If your father had had insurance, he would have been able to realize his dream, and you could now do whatever you want.” What he said was like salt in my wounds. I asked, “But who knows if you will really provide compensation?” He spoke very practically, “You don’t have to believe me. You can check it out and analyze it on your own.” I thought that was fair and I listened for three months before applying for a license. There were 30 students. It seemed like I was the only one who raised questions. I asked tricky questions on all sorts of areas. Each time, I would say, “Maybe I’m not smart, but I really do not understand. Please explain it to me.” The trainer said, “You’re not stupid. In fact, you are the smartest one. The other students think they understand. In fact, they pretend that they understand but actually don’t.” Then, out of the 30 students, only three passed the licensing tests, including me. The trainer said, “Did I teach you something?” I said, “You are right.” The others failed. Of those three who passed the tests, I was the only one who has been working in the field for the last 30 years. Life is so unpredictable.   I forgot what your original question was—? Q: I was asking you how Chinatown has changed? Chiu: It changed in that there used to be many drunks on Bowery and now there’s none. Building prices have soared from several thousand dollars to a few million dollars. They’ve gone from having a few American banks to many Chinese-operated banks and banks with foreign capital. It’s an unusual thing in the US for there to be so many banks in such a small area. So you can’t say that Chinatown hasn’t changed. The future of Chinatown is bright, but we need to work together with federal, state and city governments to rebuild Chinatown and make things better. We discovered that the government really wanted to help. I hope that the businesses in Chinatown and those who want to help Chinatown can all work together to present Chinatown on the Internet in the best possible way. We can let future generations see our incredible history, our moments of struggle, conflict and hard work; how we do business with foreigners and help them appreciate our culture and show a good example to them. Q: Were you one of the earliest insurance agents in Chinatown? Chiu: You can say so. My father passed away in 1974. I formally signed a contract with New York Life on April 28th, 1975. I planned to work for 20 years, and then I could retire. Actually I couldn’t retire. After 20 years, when I was named a Senior NYLIC Agent, and even after I was named a Post-Senior NYLIC Agent, I still could not abandon my clients. I have to work until I die. Q: How does 9/11 affect your insurance business? Chiu: 9/11 has a direct impact on my insurance business. Besides New York Life insurance, my company approved me to run commercial insurance, house insurance businesses and also property and casualty, homeowner, liability and bonds. Besides New York Life, I run investment, mutual fund, IRA, casualty, car, homeowner, clothing store, factory, garment factory, worker compensation, disability, bonds. You name it, I do it. Twenty years ago, I rented a place in Wing Ming building. Ten years later, I rented an office at 11 Doyers Street. Now I have this place. Why did I skip some years in the middle? That’s because I operated a restaurant business out-of-state in Setauket, near Stony Brook. Why did I join the insurance business? Because my father died within three years after arriving in the United States and he did not have one penny of insurance. Alfred Lapitino, the manager [of New York Life] told me, “Do you know there are many Chinese families who are just like yours? They need your help. You need to tell them the advantages of insurance.” From then until today, I’ve been serving people with the intention of bringing good news and benefits to Chinese people. We need more than just democracy, we also need what I call “protection.” This protection gives you dignity that others cannot destroy. In a family, even if one or two breadwinners pass away, someone will still bring in money for the family. This is New York Life insurance. It would be best if every family had insurance. If nothing happens, that’s great. The savings could then be used in retirement. A lot of our clients withdraw more from our insurance savings than they get from Social Security. Their Social Security benefits are only a few hundred dollars but the 30 years of insurance premiums that they’ve saved becomes a retirement fund. If people follow my advice, they can enjoy an affluent retirement lifestyle. Q: How does 9/11 affect the insurance business? Chiu: 9/11 hit the insurance industry hard, especially property and casualty insurance. The money that was paid out due to the collapse of the buildings has to be recouped by drastically increasing the premiums. A lot of businesses cannot afford these rising insurance costs. They say, “I cannot even afford to pay for basic food. How can I afford to buy insurance? I would rather go without insurance and save some. If something happens, I’ll just close down my business.” It’s hard to do business now because the premium is too high and customers would rather operate without insurance. Q: How are insurance premiums different from those before 9/11? Chiu: It’s a lot more expensive. During the last two to three years, the premiums are 40 to 50% more expensive. The prices increased 10 to 20% each year, adding up to a change of about 40 to 50%. The premiums had to increase in order to recoup our losses. But is our business completely gone? No, and in fact, we’ve made up for it in some other areas. It’s become easier to do life insurance, for example. People have clearly seen just how unpredictable life can be. When 9/11 occurred, I had been going over a bridge and I saw the buildings collapse. It was so sad. Tears kept pouring down my face. What I had thought was impossible had actually occurred. Q: Where were you when 9/11 happened? Chiu: I was at the far end of the bridge and I wasn’t allowed to cross. On that day, I had to take off early. Normally, I wouldn’t have left so early. When I could not cross the bridge, I called the 5th precinct in Chinatown in order to ask if they needed any translators. For instance, a lot of Chinese do not understand English. They might not understand what happened and need advice to escape from the disaster. I called and called. All the way until 6pm, no one answered the phone. Why? Everyone went out to rescue people, so there was nobody to answer the phone. It was like we were in a war where all communications were lost. It was lucky that I didn’t go to Chinatown, because you weren’t allowed to go out for two to three days. It was two to three weeks until I was allowed into Chinatown, and I had to bring along documents to prove my identity. Q: What do you think of the 9/11 incident? Chiu: I think having democracy is good but too much democracy is a disaster. Why is that so? Why was it so easy for the terrorists to commit this crime and use our own resources to hurt us? It’s because the United States is too democratic which allows the young, fresh graduates- I think most of the airline workers are young people, who are carefree. They lead a leisurely life style with good food, nice homes, good education and put pleasure before work. When they work, they are not serious enough. Every employee should be paid to work - not chatting, and not joking. These workers missed the terrorists, let them hijack the planes for an hour and were unable to stop them and let them hit the World Trade Center. This whole situation shows us that the American government and the public education system of the United States have to change. If they cannot improve and become stronger like the Chinese and if they don’t motivate themselves but instead are content with ease and comfort, bad things will eventually happen. Don’t blame Bush, who might have ignored the intelligence. Don’t blame Clinton for not working diligently. We should learn from John.F. Kennedy: “Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.” We should contribute our talent to improve Chinatown. Although 9/11 was cruel, if everyone contributes, Chinatown will prosper twice as much. If you don’t agree with me, just go out and look. Look at the new Chinese immigrants in East Broadway for instance. Wasn’t there a depression here after 9/11? Not only East Broadway, but also the other areas, we need customers from outside. And so do the jewellery, gift and restaurant industries. Let’s go back to the Columbus Park project. We can find ways to build a six-,seven-, eight- story underground parking lot and allocate space for several thousand parking spaces. Customers can come and not worry about parking or paying for the parking fees. Chinatown will become a shopping paradise and dining paradise. More customers would come to Chinatown and the place would prosper. The government has researched possible parking sites. Columbus Park is one place they’re considering. I hope the government will approve the Columbus Park project. I dare say that this project would, without a doubt, solve all parking problems for the federal, state and city agencies. We won’t have to worry about that anymore, and it will cease being a controversial issue. We have to do things with precision, without confusion or misunderstandings. Actually, a lot of things have been done wrong. I think one story of the Columbus parking lot could provide 300 parking spaces. A seven- to ten- story building, if it was entirely for parking, would create 3,000 to 4,000 parking spaces, and this would allow more people to come to Chinatown. Chinatown could improve things, and business could increase. Parking fees could become cheaper. Anyway, it’s just a single place so it would be economical. We could keep a park on the surface. We’d only have to build underground. We can build it with today’s technology. Q: When will this project be implemented? Chiu: The project is still being researched. I am one of the advisors of Lower Manhattan Development Corporation. We’ve already held two meetings. An announcement will be made in April, with our purpose being to develop Chinatown. I hope they will approve the project this time. We’ll have to do a lot more public relations work and lots of events. We have a whole bunch of plans. In fact there is a meeting at 10 AM tomorrow to discuss these issues. Q: Mr. Chiu, how was your other business besides the insurance? Could you discuss them with us? Chiu: It’s not just my business. Take the tourist industry as an example. Almost all agents closed after 9/11. A lot of them had worked together, and had the help of wholesalers. Afterwards, they all negatively influenced each other, and most closed because there was no business at all. Tourist agencies cannot function scattered in different places. Our family tourist business did not have any business because nobody was willing to travel. Now it is better. We continue to have some hotel reservations, car rentals and travelling business. Domestic travel is still weak. We don’t know if things will recover, especially because airlines make direct sales and have a monopoly. They don’t need a third party to be their agent. Travel agents will disappear. Only a few will survive. There won’t be as many as before, because they can’t make ends meet. Q: So, where is Setauket Travel Agency? Chiu: In fact, now we have only one office for all our businesses. We had tried to divide into branches. Now we have just one, in order to minimize costs and survive. We’re not accustomed to getting relief funds, and we feel that we’ll find a way to get through this period. If we can’t succeed, we’ll just close. Q: How is 9/11 affecting your business? Chiu: 9/11 takes away a large proportion of our travel business. We’ve only got our old, loyal customers, and there’s not many of them. It’s a lot worse than it used to be. Q: Are most of the travel packages domestic ones? Chiu: There is almost no more domestic business. Foreign customers stay away because of SARS and anti-terrorism measures. Many of them had a hard time getting a visa to the United States. On the other hand, we get new business whenever new immigrants gain green cards. They go back to Mainland China or Hong Kong and travel there. If it wasn’t for that, we wouldn’t have any business at all. Q: You have been in the tourism business for more than 30 years? Chiu: I’ve worked in the tourism business from 1971 to the present. After I came to the U.S., I was involved in the business for a short while. And then I was in Long Island and worked in a travel agency at Setauket. And then I bought the business. When I moved the business to Chinatown, I kept the name Setauket Travel. The Chinese name was called Liu Feng, named after my father’s hometown. Both names refer to suburbs. Now the travel agency is called Chinatown Travel because we moved it to Chinatown. Q: Do you think the tourism industry in Chinatown has reached its nadir? Chiu: Chinatown’s tourism industry in Chinatown is in the midst of its deepest depression, and is struggling to survive. Now it’s time to unite. If everyone works hard we can make it and find some opportunities. Otherwise, it’s really going to be tough. Q: Besides that, what other businesses do you have? Chiu: Import and export. I was importing jelly fish heads. After 9/11, we ended up overstocked and couldn’t sell them. I suffered a huge loss. The goods stayed in the warehouse and could not be sold. I had to discard them. It was really horrible. When the customers do not pay, I won’t reorder the same product. We won’t import that product anymore. So that business is practically over. Q: Why was imported food especially affected? Chiu: Because after 9/11, the restaurant business diminished and individuals had less income. When the economy is so weak, who’s going to buy luxury items? Jellyfish are expensive. They cost between seven and ten dollars a pack. Second-rate jellyfish costs three dollars. Q: How much did you lose? Chiu: We actually lost thousands and thousands of dollars, a total loss. The storage and other expenses we already paid for could not be refunded. The loss was huge. Q: You have so many different businesses. Was 9/11 a huge blow to you personally? Chiu: It was a heavy blow to everybody, and it was also a heavy blow to me. Luckily, my insurance business survived. You can say that was my last fallback. Q: Mr. Chiu, you’re Fujianese. What is the difference between the old and new Fuzhou immigrants here? Or what are the differences between the way Fuzhou used to be and the way it is now? Chiu: There’s a huge difference between recent and past Fuzhou immigrants. In 1971, you could distinguish between the locals and the ones that entered illegally on ships. Ninety-five percent of them would cover their heads. They were always staring around with their heads lowered. I pitied them and didn’t want them to be caught. I would pat their shoulders and talk to them. They would be very scared and stare at me. I talked to them first in Cantonese. If they did not know how to reply, then I would use the little bit of Fujianese that I had learned as a kid. If they were Fujianese, I would tell them, “Don’t walk in such a timid way. People will know you’re an illegal immigrant off the boat and you will be arrested. Walk like me and nobody will catch you.” I dare say, a lot of people will remember what I’ve told them. Ha ha. Q: Why was illegal immigration so easy back then? Chiu: It was not so easy. At that time, sailors had boarding passes to come on shore, but they didn’t go back. This was called “jumping ship.” They had no other way. Most of them just “jumped ship.” They worked on the ship as seamen, as sailors, as crew, as cooks or helpers, or as deliverymen. They escaped when they came to the United States and didn’t go back to the ships. “Jumping ship” doesn’t necessarily mean that they literally jumped from the ship into the sea and then swam ashore. Like the overseas students who liked staying in the United States and looked for a sponsor, and then never returned. Or some people came by tourist or business visas and decided they wanted to stay. These are all just ways to change your position. If you’re rich, you can apply for a tourist visa or do business here and end up getting permanent residency. All the different methods are fine. There’s nothing wrong with them. People who weren’t as privileged used other methods which fit them. “Do I oppose anyone who came to the United States illegally?” In fact, no, I think Americans and their ancestors came to the United States illegally and invaded the country. That created America. American-born citizens should not be anti-immigrant and should not sanction illegal immigrants. If they do, that’s like a slap in their own face, unless they are Native Americans. No one should oppose immigrants, or they themselves should not be here. But we should have a way to make immigrants follow the right path to immigrate, because a small number of immigrants committed crimes in the United States and endangered both the Chinese community and public safety. We also see some Chinese being oppressed, bullied, assassinated and murdered. If you can unite and help each other mutually, we will have more power. Why? If we are plentiful in number, we will have a lot of votes, and then elected officials will do more for us. If we work against each other, the politicians will manipulate us. We need officials to work for us and be our public servants. They have to represent us and work for us. Otherwise, we’re completely useless. Q: Mr. Chiu, after all these years, you must have been back to Fuzhou a few times. What was your impression? Chiu: I have gone back and taken a look at Fuzhou. In 1980, 10 years after I immigrated, I went back to Fuzhou via Hong Kong. My mother had lived a hard life with my father. She followed him from Fuzhou to Shanghai, then to Hong Kong, and finally to the United States. She didn’t return to Fuzhou during all this time, until 1977. I did not have enough money to take her home to see her parents. I took out a loan from the bank in order to fulfil her wish. Then my mother wanted to apply for her parents to come to the United States. In 1980, I went back to Fuzhou and applied for visas for them in Guangzhou. They came to the United States via Hong Kong. My maternal grandfather asked my mother, “If I die, what will you do with me?” My mother said, “If you like, I will bury you here with my late husband.” My grandfather said, “No, it’s too quiet here. I have to return home.” My mother said, “You don’t have to be in a hurry to go back. Stay here. If you pass away, I will send your body home.” My grandfather said, “What if you don’t send me home? What will happen to me? It’s livelier back there.” He insisted on returning to China. He said it was nice we settled down in the United States. He was an old man, after all, over eighty years old. If he stayed here, he could only look at the sky and the four walls in the house. Although we lived in a [two-story] colonial house with front and back yards and have a big family, he was still not used to it. He went back to China with my grandmother. Two years later, he passed away at the age of 90. I heard the news when I was attending a New York Life educational conference in West Virginia. I went back with my mother to take care of his funeral ceremony in China and then we returned together. My grandmother came to the United States several times, but she got bored and went back. As far as what I saw when I returned to Fuzhou in 1980 – I wept continuously from Hong Kong to Guangzhou. Why? China was so miserable, dusty and without infrastructure. I thought, China is so poor that it’s no wonder others look down on it. In Shanghai, I was trapped in traffic jams all the time. It took two hours to drive 12 miles and I would have gotten there faster walking. Everything was so backwards and miserable. It was even worse in Fuzhou. When the wind blew, yellow sand scattered every where. The buildings were worn out. There was nothing there. China was really miserable. That was in 1980. When I returned again in 1982, I saw some changes taking place. I was there in 1984 for my grandfather’s funeral. In 1983, representing this community, I raised funds for a dragon boat contest there to promote athletics. Each time we led a tour from the United States to Fuzhou, I saw changes. And in September 2003, last year, there were highways and skyscrapers everywhere, the streets were orderly, and the buildings were so tall you couldn’t see their tops. In 1980, there were so many bicycles that you could not even cross the street. Now, we have skywalks built across the second floors of the buildings. We don’t have to cross the streets on the ground floor. We can follow their example and cross the roads on the second floors of buildings in Chinatown or combine skywalks with escalators for the elderly. Let the cars have the road. We could also have businesses on the second floor. I think it would be a nice thing and a huge plan for development, and in the future, it could be expanded when there is more investment. We need this kind of construction in order to develop our Chinatown. Q: Do you think Fuzhou became prosperous as a result of immigrants returning to their homeland? Chiu: Not just recent immigrants, but also past immigrants who returned to invest in properties and in business. And it wasn’t just in Fuzhou City, but also in suburban areas such as Changle. They completely remade these places. There was more construction work in the suburban areas than in the cities. The roads and highways are so advanced that from Fuzhou to Xiamen, it takes only one hour, while it took eight hours in the past. Transportation is convenient. There are lots of new buildings, but not so many people living in them. Thus, the price of the buildings is not so high. The price will go up only when demand is greater than supply. Currently, there is more supply than demand. When I organized a tour for [U.S.] policemen to visit China, they said, “Now I understand why the new immigrants will risk their lives to come to the United States, willing to send home money home and repay a huge debt. For if they work hard for a few years in the United States, they could return to their homeland and build three- or four- story buildings. They don’t use red bricks, rather they use beautiful white tiles, and build fences. The homes are very classy, like those of the rich. Q: What other public service positions do you hold within the community? Chiu: While I was working, I never thought of returning. One major task I did was to help out with burials. When Golden Venture crashed, 10 persons drowned. On behalf of our American Fujian Association of Commerce and Industry Inc., we claimed the bodies, buried them and located their families. Four of them were very lucky in that we could identify them, notify their families and have their bodies returned. The other six were not so lucky. We had to bury them. Mrs. Amy Chan of Ng & Chun Fook Funeral Services and Mrs. Ying Kam, Yu Tang donated $10,000. We donated our manpower. Ng & Chun Fook paid for the rest. Everyone got involved in this charity work in a different way. We are still searching for the families of the deceased. One of them we may be able to locate. Ten years later, a Chinese reporter asked me to make an appeal one more time in the newspapers. A Chinese family had been looking for their son who had been missing for 10 years. But there was only one drop of blood [on the cotton gauze] and it may not be enough to identify the DNA. We need about one square inch of blood to identify the DNA. If the person identified is their son, we will have one more body to return to their family. Q: Were most of the Golden Venture passengers Fujianese? Chiu: Most were Fujianese, and there were also many from Wenzhou City. The second family who claimed a body was from Wenzhou, Zhejiang province. When they came forward to claim the body, the immigration officer ordered the family member to be arrested. It was only after we called this inhumane treatment that they released the family. America is a democratic country. They felt bad when we said they were undemocratic. Then they released the names of 10 who drowned and let people claim them. Every family had to claim the body with my signatures and approval, because I was the person who claimed their bodies. Q: What is the moral of this tragedy for immigrants? Chiu: Frankly speaking, it tells immigrants that America is no paradise. Whenever I returned and explained that, they did not believe me, as if I was lying. I told them that America is a “slave training camp”. No one should work over 13 hours but I worked at least 13 hours every day during my 32 years in the United States. So I told them the Untied States is a “slave training camp”. They argued, “But why are you still there?” I said I had no choice. They would not believe me. They said the United States was a paradise. I said the United States was a paradise as well as a hell. If you cannot earn enough money, you are in hell. If you earn enough money, anywhere would be a paradise. That’s true not only in the United States but also in China. I told them, you’re already very fortunate and don’t even know it. I said, in China, you get food even if you don’t work. In the United States, if you don’t work you don’t eat. No one believed in me back then. Upon their arrival here, they realized I was telling the truth. They told me, “I should have listened to your advice. I didn’t listen and now I’m in trouble.” Q: When the Golden Venture tragedy happened, did it act as a warning in China and Fuzhou and cause less people to come to America? Chiu: I thought they did a good job of keeping the story a secret. Not a lot of people knew about the Golden Venture. Chinese people living outside of China knew more about it. Some overseas Chinese knew about it from foreign television. They knew from news report that I helped in burials and held a Buddhist funeral ceremony at the shore. The biggest project we worked for in the community was to reopen Grand Street Station. We finally succeeded in demanding a subway line between Grand St. Station and DeKalb Avenue- saving our passengers time walking and transferring. When they repaired the Manhattan Bridge, they originally planned to complete it in eight years. Instead, it only took two years and Grand Street Station had already reopened. That’s how the community is rewarded if we work at it. I was also involved in the Chinatown cleaning campaign but it wasn’t that successful. I think Chinatown should have our own private garbage trucks. Whenever the trash cans get full, they can pick it up. It’s worth it to pay more and get better service. If Chinatown was cleaner, more tourists would be willing to shop here. After all, everything is cheap in Chinatown. As far as the roads go, Chinatown has lots of potholes. East Broadway is already improved. I made a complaint last month about a fund that was already approved to redo the road surface at the intersection of Doyer Street and East Broadway since they had claimed that they didn’t have any funds. I said, “That’s no excuse. I know the federal funds have already arrived. I can accept other excuses but not this.” After one week, they finally started working on the road. But they didn’t dig the usual seven inches. They only replaced two or three inches. It was only surface work. They replied that different methods would be used for complete renovation. I hope this project works, because there are two spots in East Broadway that always sink even after repeated fillings. It would benefit Chinatown if the problem is fixed. Besides these projects, I personally think there are not enough parking spaces in Chinatown. Everyday, we hear complaints, that government employees have taken away our parking spaces. Why can’t we build an underground parking lot with three to four stories and let them park their cars and not occupy surface streets. Or we could build a few skywalks with escalators for the elderly and allow pedestrians to move around without walking. They wouldn’t block traffic, and elderly pedestrians wouldn’t get hit by cars. Wouldn’t this project make Chinatown more prosperous? Q: When will these plans be implemented? Chiu: I think LMDC has accomplished 70% of what I would desire. I think these things are very important and necessary. Chinatown is vastly different from what it was 30 years ago, even though there was a drastic drop-off after 9/11. If Chinatown is going to improve, the parking problem must be solved. If we do not even have enough space to live, how can we have enough spaces for cars? If one has to pay 20 to 30 dollars for parking while having dinner in Chinatown, people will choose to eat close to where they live and save money. I also have hopes for the 2nd Avenue subway station project. I hope it will start soon and that will make Chinatown prosper. For 32 years, Chinatown did not have her own subway station. It would be a big convenience if we had a subway spot at the intersections near Mott Street and East Broadway and Park Row. Just dig a hole in East Broadway or Park Row and that will be the underground subway station. The project should start as soon as possible. It will help revitalize Chinatown. Q: Mr. Chiu, you mentioned that the relationship between police and locals was not so good in the past. Has it improved recently? Chiu: The police-civilian relationship has changed drastically in recently years. I went to the police plaza headquarters and explained to them how Chinese people feel. Don’t assume the Chinese are opposed to the police. I also suggested the police should be courteous and have a better attitude towards Chinese people. Through networking, I got to know some officers better and I brought them on a trip to China. They realized that most Chinese people are good-natured. Only a handful of bad ones need to be dealt with. The police treat Chinese citizens a lot better. There was once a police action on East Broadway to arrest illegal peddlers. When the police arrived, the peddlers fled. After the police left, the peddlers set up their booths again. For a long time, the police could not make any arrests. They were mad. A Chinese policeman grabbed a child and threw him into a police van like he was throwing out garbage. All the Chinese people were stunned. They asked me to confront the policeman. The arrested boy was frightened because he had no legal status and he also worried that he could not survive upon release since the police might take revenge on him. Both the arrested and the arrester were Chinese. This was the first time that the Chinese policeman had done anything like this. Someone said, “If we don’t teach him a lesson now, he’ll be even worse in the future.” They thought that policeman was as bad as colonial police. When I confronted him for the first time, he was mad. But we could not blame him, he had gotten fired up. I was angry too. 　　 I told him calmly, “I know you are very mad at this moment and very agitated. But let me tell you one thing. If the child you threw was my son, I would pull my gun out and shoot you. You are doing something very stupid; you’re not behaving like a police officer. If you don’t want to say you’re sorry and apologize for this act, I’ll make your life very difficult. Do you want all the reporters in front of the police station, and see your name in the newspaper? You’ll lose your job.” He said, “Fine, I apologize.” Then he closed the door and apologised to the child and his family. They all greeted at me. I wanted everything to be resolved peacefully. If he knows he was wrong, and he corrects his ways, that’s all I want. I don’t want to cause trouble for one person. If he lost his job and went on welfare, how would we benefit? We want a good community. We have to work together. Everybody will make some mistakes, right?” Q: When was that? Chiu: It happened a few years ago. Now we have community police officers and youth explorers. When youngsters see something happen, they immediately tell the police so that they can halt the crime and make an arrest. We have community days and sponsor the local precinct during community activities on important days like Christmas. We sent in gifts and gave out fingerprint kits, car detailing products and other things. These are events that improve the relationship between police and residents. Q: How is the 5th precinct police station in Chinatown different from what it used to be? Is it still at the same location? Chiu: The location is the same as 30 years ago. I have known some captains and lieutenants. They are nice people. Some of them are really nice to the Chinese, especially Ronald Lekos. He is Greek and took good care of the Chinese. There is also a Thomas Chen. In the future, we might have Michael Lau. I call him Captain Lau. He is a community officer at the Police Plaza. Q: Would you say that you are very satisfied with the current police-civilian relationship? Chiu: Speaking frankly, they could be even better, of course, with more funding and manpower. Q: Mr. Chiu, you have children here. What hopes do you have for them? Chiu: Frankly, Chinese people always say. “Children are insurance for old age.” But we can’t have that same expectation now. We say that child-rearing is educating elites now. I hope they gain academic knowledge while learning Chinese customs from their home. Then they can accomplish even more than us. We can’t control the result, because American education over-emphasizes liberty and democracy. And they overdo it, so that you can never completely… My elder son was a student in Binghamton University. He joined the National Guard Reserves and is learning to repair Black Hawk helicopters to prepare for a position as a crew chief. He also learned how to use machineguns. Last year, he taught the new soldiers to shoot. It is nice if he will contribute to our country. My hope is that he studies even better in the future. My second son is a fresh man at Stony Brook University and he is a good student. He wants to be a scientist, not a money-maker. I hope he can be a distinguished scientist. It would also be good if he contributes to his family and himself. Q: You have been living in the United States for such a long time. Now that 9/11 has happened, what do you think of the United States? Do you still think that United States is a good country? Chiu: The United States is an excellent country. We should have democracy but not too extreme. If kids are allowed to have too much democracy or misuse democracy, a lot of things will happen, including cults, groups running money scams in the name of democracy and so on. We should not just sit here and do nothing. We should point out the risk. Q: Do you have anything to add? Chiu: I was going to ask you the same question. Sometimes I have so much to say that I could talk endlessly. I could talk for three days non-stop. Q: Do you have any hopes for Chinatown? Chiu: We have to live together and cooperate. We have to make Chinatown prosper by keeping peace and not arguing. We should not try to gain credit for what others do. Instead, we should work as a team and Chinatown will become better. We hope we can double our prosperity within three or five years and not wait another 30 years. If we are willing to cooperate and make Chinatown prosper, I believe we can do it and we will succeed. Q: Thank you for your interview. Today is March 30th, 2004. This is the Chinatown Oral History Project of the Museum of Chinese in the Americas. The interviewee is Mr. William Chiu. The interviewer is me, I-ching Ng. Chiu: Thank you. (End of tape) Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：趙先生，可以講述一下你未移民前在香港的生活嗎？ 趙：其實我在香港的時間比我在美國的時間更短，只有19年，懂事之後在六歲左右，我依稀記得那是由九龍塘搬去中環，到德忌笠街住，在二樓，即是什麼酒吧樓上，因為我剛回去看過，所以知道。那時很頑皮，爸爸媽媽做到會的生意，我們頑皮起來有很多地方走，因為那時德忌笠街沒有車，我們時時玩兵捉賊。 問：那時是什麼時候？ 趙：當時是六歲，1958年左右，那時搬到中環，在德忌笠街住兩年，因為業主要趕走，非走不可，搬到對面街和安里，二年後遷居到榮華里，都是在隔離，也是在蘭桂坊，住到1963年左右，爸爸因為有病，連續兩次腦溢血後，媽媽就不容許他做這份工，將生意賣給自己夥記及朋友，後來爸爸接受到日本的邀請，到留園當廚師，教日本人煮菜，輕鬆很多，一天只工作8個小時，不用時時工作。 問：你們做到會生意有多忙？ 趙：我們記得最忙的時候，有22個夥記，四至五個大師傅，一晚去幾個地方。 問：那時候做到會生意是否很普遍？ 趙：正式來說不是很多這方面的人才，有些是自己做酒樓或打工，江浙人士很喜歡在家請客，叫大師傅到他們的家煮一餐，第一溫馨一點，第二是自己人或一起做生意的人，在家傾偈(談話)很方便。通常叫到會的老板，家中地方相當大，有些一層樓，有些一座樓，如九龍塘、跑馬地、半山區等。那時是全盛時期，我爸爸每天都很忙，由朝忙到晚。 問：趙先生你為什麼會移民來美國？ 趙：講起來有段古，我媽媽後來憶述給我們，我爸爸在1950年由上海到香港，媽媽在1951年到香港，我1952年在香港出生，1948年爸爸到福州娶我媽媽回來，到上海，我有個家姐1949年在上海出生，從上海到香港，爸爸在上海未懂得做生意，聽人講賣毛巾會賺錢，因此把所有節約的金錢去購買毛巾，到了香港沒有人買，虧蝕很多。當時上海很多人到香港做生意，其中有一個上海老闆，徐家在上海做律師問：「不如到我家做廚師。」，我爸就在他那裡打工，有很多上海煮食是徐家教煮的，很棒。他家中的徐老太時時教爸爸煮上海菜，徐老太到上海館吃飯時問廚師如何煮， 回來就教我爸爸如何煮，所以我爸爸煮上海菜很不錯。後來徐老先生移民來美國時，捨不得我爸爸，他問：「大師傅有什麼要求？想不想到美國？」我爸爸回答說「想。」因為爸爸曾在天主教會登記成為難民移民，但一直沒有消息。徐老先生說：「我到美國，想辦法申請你來。」其後一直沒有消息。到我十來歲時，也沒有消息，都以為沒有機會了。雖然我爸爸以前也提及：「如果徐老先生在，申請我們過去，你讀書就不用這麼多錢，我們就不用這樣辛苦了。要留學就到台灣吧！」 　　　　可能是命運安排，聽說徐老先生去世前有個遺願，承諾趙大師傅，但未有做到。徐老先生有個女兒，是李聯旅行社的東主──李太，她和李先生很熱心，到處找我爸爸找不到，有一次帶團到日本，我爸爸在留園當廚師，在留園飯店遇到爸爸，李先生問：「趙大師傅，你要不要來美國？」我爸爸說：「想。」回美後，李生李太找到致美樓的葉先生，由致美樓申請我們來美國，當時P6(第六優先)可以申請來美移民。三個月不到，爸爸在日本，移民美國文件批出來了，爸爸返回香港申請家屬，一家九個人，當時我姐姐在丹麥，不包括姐姐，大概八月，當時有六個月的時間簽證。你知道我們當時並不知道美國是怎麼樣的。為什麼喜歡到美國？講起來有段古。 　　　　你知道香港因為鴉片戰爭，割讓給英國，以前不懂，只曉得玩及睡，及被爸爸媽媽逼著讀書。以前全盛期，我在高主教讀書時，有人接送我上學及返家，我現在還記得。 　　　　讀中學時，歷史書講到反清，講到中華民國等現代史的時候， 就截著歷史不教了。那時在中四，對近代史很模糊，為什麼當時有美國政府保護？當時台灣是美國政府承認，有美國保護。又什麼叫支那？有人叫蔣匪，有人叫毛賊，為什麼會這樣？讀書的作用是問能增進識宜，何恥之有？君子要聞下問，我就問老師：「什麼是蔣匪毛賊？」誰知大件事了，撞著的老師是跟隨蔣介石從軍的，老師轟轟烈烈走過來，叉著腰：「你要找死！」指著我的頭：「你指蔣總統做蔣匪，我殺了你的頭！」我回應，我不懂才問，我問才會知道。老師說：你還回嘴！」。我為這件事被記一個大過，無端端被記大過，從此我就去深入研究，既然你不與我說，既然你稱毛賊可以，為什麼不能稱蔣匪呢？於是我剛開始政治知識，因為無端被記大過，太慘痛了。由那天開始，這教國語及歷史的老師第一個給我難堪，諸多刁難，故此我的國文及歷史背得很熟，到後來不需學現代史時，我整個人輕鬆下來，因為不需日日去溫習。 　　知道為什麼林則徐在虎門銷毀鴉片？為什麼中國因為反對鴉片毒品而被英國攻打虎門？為什麼要割讓香港？後來因為清約而割讓香港，很憎日本人及英國人，英國人販毒，害我們中國人。那時也是很模糊，因為中國和台灣土地一大片，為什麼分左右派？覺得很無理，和很不合理，同時對英國政府有偏見：如果不是英國人殘害中國人，中國就不會這麼容易被打敗！中國人不會被日本人叫東亞病夫！所以我的尚武精神就開始了。 雖然以前有玩武術，師傅以前在德忌笠街造生意，我不是跟你說過我少年時住的地方嗎？我少時很頑皮，在石樓梯邊游玩，那裡有水有青苔，我扮賊，別人抓我時，我腳踏在青苔上，滑到，卜一聲，跌破頭，這裡有一度疤痕，那時是8歲左右，我師傅就在對面，為我止血，醫好我。我後來于1964年遷居到嘉咸街，我師傅亦遷居到我家對面，可算有緣，我便拜師，李伯靈（李北）蔡李佛拳第三傳人是我的蔡李佛功夫師傅。他并且教我鐵打醫術，使我在美受益不淺。 問：你是否因為不喜歡英國政府，使你轉而喜歡美國政府？ 趙：是，因為英國政府的殖民統治，如此取得香港，香港人受到壓制，尤其是到政府部門，政府人員狐假虎威，兇惡，我想這是什麼世界。 　　　　再者，讀書時知道美國很大，但不知道這麼大，我當時只想到台灣讀書，因為美國讀書太貴，我想到台灣，但那時除國文及歷史外，沒有一科是中文，對中文完全不懂。我因為想做醫生，當時在台大，當時承認台灣是中國，有些科目是用中文考生物及化學，英文還可以，回到中文，我連問什麼也一點看不懂，故此考不到台大。 我想既然中文不行，不能造醫生，我第二個愿望是要做商人，我要實踐，由低做起，我的中學畢業會考不合格，只有三至四科，不足五科。當時由我契媽（樊英）的老闆 Mr Gibson是美國人，原居地住在芝加哥，介紹我給他的生意合夥人顧文忠先生德信行的老闆，她一介紹，顧老闆就說：「好呀，你來吧！」，在德信行，由最低層做起，那間是德信國際貿易有限公司，是出口美國和加拿大的貿易公司，專門做羊毛衫，外銷英國、美國、加拿大及澳洲四個地方。其中我契媽的的老闆 MR GIBSON亦是大主顧之一，所以亦是對我另眼相看，算是有機緣。他說：「你來，自己看檔案，什麼都可以看。」但那時其實是不容許的，為什麼呢？朝早九時上班，我七時半就到寫字樓，逐個檔案去讀，沒有事就練打字，將一些文件重新打過，可能有些職員不滿，有三十多個職員，有些主任看見，不喜歡(like) 我的行為，問我：「你知不知道這是機密文件，你是不能看的。」我答道：「老闆叫我看，」主任就說：「既然老闆叫你看，那我們就不干涉，」 　　　　很快六個月左右，我知道做生意的輪廓，老闆對我真的不錯，他連如何與人洽談生意的信件、如何取得樣板、如果取錢、如何收費、取得信用狀、如何寫約定信(confirmation)、將單賣給銀行等等，所以六個月後，我升職三級，但工資照常，因為除了打字，我還驗貨，做confirmation，什麼都做。 　　　　別人做後生是做工，我卻出來做代表；別人排隊給人罵，我就去罵人。因為我不值政府官員的狐假虎威，排隊仍要罵，我就站出來說：「我要見你的主任先生，因為你們的態度有問題。」他們就怕了， 有什麼要做的就先為我做，所以我做事比別人快，我做事要找主管，因為我是代表德信行來這裡做事。我外出時，別人拿一個袋子，我就要公司買個公文箱給我用，會計說：「你憑什麼買個公文箱？」我說：「我是代表德信行辦事，要有威信，沒有公文箱怎可以？」他當場語塞，要買給我。以前洗碗手會變粗，我要洗碗買潤膚霜，他說：「為什麼要買潤膚霜，沒有人學你這樣麻煩？」我說：「如果洗杯弄壞手，難道要公司賠？」可能因為是老闆的關係，他們不敢阻攔。 　　　　我所要求做的事可以一天可以做很多，流滿汗，一天做八九樣事情，故此老闆時時讚我：「你做得很好」，賞我錢買東西吃，那時我才17,18歲。 　　　　我在德信行做了一年就來了美國，晚上修讀會計，為什麼呢？我覺得有需要，如果不懂得會計，不會做事。所以我對著公司的會計，有時也會考起他們，因為他們不一定是專業會計，而我在香港已經開始讀了。 問：請講述一下知道要來美國那一刻，你的感覺怎麼樣？ 趙：當我們知道要來美國，很高興。當時老闆做南美洲，北美洲生意，當時我就做非洲生意，因為我不想學到老闆的功夫，而搶他的飯碗(生意)，所以我要另闢門徑。美洲的生意容易做，老闆的生意大量，利潤小，我們的生意是少量的，利潤大，正當我想向老闆提議新開發的時候，移民已經批准了，我要和老闆講再見。做到12月， 老闆也很明白，他對我說，以前他也在美國做大兵，後來由美國到香港發展，留在香港。 　　　　我來美國時的飛機票很貴，我要想到最平，因為我想做生意，四處去鑽，亦知道那裡去問，找到最平，當時就已經做旅行社，所以買機票特別平，李聯旅行社在香港做旅行社，我照樣建議給香港的李聯旅行社，李聯也照樣給我們做，為什麼呢？正式來說，我們的恩人是李太，或者是李太的爸爸徐老先生，如果不是他的一句話，我們仍然在香港，做人要飲水思源，我們一定要記得李太，記得徐家對我們的好處，幫助我們這麼大的忙。 　　　　在英國管治下很壓抑，就算是英國公民也只能算是二等公民，而且是分級地(classified)告訴你，你去英國還要簽證，那是一派胡言，承認你是英國人士，不，只是承認你用英籍人士，你是英國子民(British Subject)，不是英國人，他們的態度是歧視所有英籍子民，只有英國人才是英國人，我覺得沒有民主。其次我覺得英國是賊的國家，為什麼講這些？因為她是靠賣鴉片發達，為了利益侵略別人的國家，割別人的地，所以讀書時說，英國日不落國，以為很威風，後來看見英國人因為林則徐銷煙打中國人，另我憎恨英國。 　　　　在香港的英國少年很喜歡欺負中國少年，他們走路招搖，朝向迎面而來的華人一肘子就撞過來，你要驚，要迴避，不單對我一個是這樣。我的反應剛剛相反，你撞來，你一肘打回來，我一肘子打回去，他們痛至不能出聲，我也順便說：「我好痛！好痛！」沒有一個人敢出聲。 　　　　亦試過有一回有一個十多歲的英國孩子，我們中國人經過他面前，被他一拳打在肚皮上，如果我行過去就不同了，我知道他就快出手，因為他打人在先，我就先一拳格回來，再打回去， 他痛極，也不敢出聲，很多這些情況，使我,產生物極必反的原素。 　　　　1966年，法西斯暴動，打人，學校內人士分開左派右派，我觀念很模糊，有些人說：「我們要團結在一起，高唱東方紅，反抗英政府。」也看到香港政府懷柔政策，我們中國人被壓逼，更加不喜歡香港。我不要做殖民地人，如果我要做殖民地人，我寧可做美國的殖民地人。 　　　　移民去美國時，我們個個都很興奮，買日本航空公司機票到美國，我爸爸在東京做了八年，很多日本朋友，日本人飛來香港，看望爸爸，我也學過日本文三個月，但沒有使用過。在東京機場已經覺得大，在美國第一眼到見到甘迺迪(JFK)機場，真的是目瞪口呆，世界之大，因為JFK氣勢驚人，一望無際。別人有時差(jetlag)，我則三天不到就很精神。當時是1971年，第一次見下雪。 　　　　我在致美樓學做侍應生，致美樓在現在的Subway Deli，在東百老匯口、包厘及宰也街（Doyer）旁邊，右手第二或第三間是Subway，x福商場及旁邊的Subway Deli是屬於致美樓餐館的舊址，就是這間餐廳申請爸爸來美國，可以講我們一家人算是最幸運的一個家庭。 問：其實當年申請去美國是否很難？ 趙：如果沒有資格，是申請不到的，為什麼會有這麼多跳船， 又留學生留下不離開？就是美國的移民政策比較寬鬆，所以留下來。現在在美國的老僑領大部份是以前走船來美，或是留學生留在美國，沒有回去，很少正式移民到這裡。在這裡落地生根的人甚少，尤其是福建人這一邊，我還記得那時只有一間福建同鄉會，人丁很單薄，只有數百人。直至今日，在美東三州地區，保守估計，有50萬至60萬人。 問：從香港申請來美國，你提及你爸爸在教會申請難民，情況如何？ 趙：申請難民，石沉大海，完全沒有消息，我們移民來的時候也要報告，否則我也不知道，因年紀很小。 問：申請難民是否很困難？ 趙：正式來說，除非有技術，及有人申請來。否則連想都不要想。 　　　　1971年的的唐人街和現在的有天淵之別，Mott Street當時旺的程度，也不及現在這裡旺，只有兩三條街，移民的1971年到致美樓學做企枱(待應生)，也沒有工資，連來回兩程車票，都要自己出，那時地車剛剛漲價，一程要50美仙，現在是兩元了，我慣了早到，那是從香港來，在香港打工沒有遲到那回事，現在就麻煩了，4點多起床，6時到這裡。 問：你現在住在那裡？ 趙：現在住長島事多吉 (Setauket)，（Stony Brook）附近，快者1小時1刻，但塞車要4小時半才到。 問：你那時在唐人街居住嗎？ 趙：那時我住布朗士(Bronx)，因為我要學做企枱，那是爸爸的一位同事早移民來，住在布朗士，替我們租了一個柏文。所以坐車一天一元，他們事先聲明：「你來這裡，我們不付你工資，你到來的早、午、晚餐可以一起吃，我教你如何收碗，如果學得好，我教你接單。」在致美樓我學了一個月，做了一星期後有位亞叔就跟我說：「亞弟，我不理人們怎樣，總之如果你做得好，幫得我手，我就給你一元，不用蝕車費。」所以我做了一個月，一共收了21元，是這位亞叔給的，他現在也在唐人街。做完一個月後，他們說，你算得上學會了，不用再來了。有一位蔣先生問：「你要不要做替工？我有三天替工，你要不要做？」我說：「好」。 　　　　以前在唐人街待應生的態度很差，碗是擲過來的，砰砰嘭嘭，沒有茶他們不會添，我雖然做了一個月，我覺得不應該，我排碗排得快，收碗收得快，斟水斟得快，換水換得快，總之什麼也是Prefect，還有一個笑話，當時我是替工又是生手，搵不到錢，又要幫助，他們不會和你打共產(小費平分)，只是叫你分到內堂裡面做，你搞掂，他們並將打鐵客(不給小費的客人)分給我。 那位打鐵客人對我的態度很愕然便問：「為什麼你招呼這麼好，又有禮貌，會問候人，會添茶，會收碗。」我回答說：「因為你是這裡的客人，我是這裡的代表，是不是我應好好地招呼你？」他很愕然，「你不知道我不會給貼士？」我說：「這個不重要，你是客人我就要你滿意。你滿意就好了，你感覺舒服，就是我們的期望。」(As long as you enjoy yourself, this is what we are looking for.) 出奇地，結賬時他付20%的貼士(小費)，其他夥計說：「亞弟，你和我們打共產，」世事就是這樣奇，如你是新人他們會恰(欺壓你)，如果有用他們會拉攏你。 　　後來我做了三日就離開，我相信如我要長做，他們也會讓我留下來。但是我選擇離開，因為我覺得第一，我仍要讀書，第二我覺得一天賺數十元很浪費。因為當時福州人很勤力，可以一日做三班，八小時一班，不睡覺，做到死將錢帶回鄉下用，工作量很驚人。我雖然不能做三班，但大概可以做兩班，但如做唐人工，不能做兩班。 　　　　我起初想讀書，後來又不讀書，因為我走到學校，問讀書要讀多少學分，他們說要讀12個學分。我問一個學分多少錢，他答一個學分120元，我問一日要讀多少學分，他們說一日要讀三個學分，我說：「嘩！我那來這麼多錢讀書，」於是我叫弟妹讀中學，免費的，一年後，算是紐約居民，讀大學也便宜很多。爸爸當時工資只有600元，我對爸爸說，「我為你做工，先還債，等生活環境轉好才算。」我爸爸也答應了，只有他一人做工，維持家計很辛苦，工資只有600元，家庭一個月要300生活開銷，還要還債，欠李太很多錢，那些是很多人的機票錢。我要做兩份工的話，就不能在唐人街做企枱，否則我賺不夠錢。別人說那間那間打工好，我就去碰。 　　 　　第一間找工叫羅賓餐廳(Reuben)，以前是第一流餐廳，最著名芝士蛋糕 (cheese cake)和羅賓三文治(Reuben sandwiches)。我進去問工，他說：「對不起，我們沒有待應的空缺。」(Sorry, we don’t have any vacancy of a waiter.)我就說：有沒有收碗筷的？我也很在行。(How about bus boy？ Bus boy, I will be very good on it too. ) 　　　　他說：你願意做收碗筷的，可以的，我們也需要收碗筷的。(Are you willing to be a bus boy？ That’s okay. You know we need bus boy too.) 　　　　我說：可以，我就做收碗筷的，如果你有機會的時候，請升我做侍應生。(Okay, then I go and work as a bus boy. When you have a chance next time, you will promote me to be a waiter.) 　　　　他說：可以(Okay.)，其實他也不知道你的工作能力，但也敷衍著。他是西班牙裔的部長(captain)。 　　　　不要說中國人有自尊(pride)，外國人亦一樣，西班牙歸西班牙裔，黑人歸黑人、意大利人歸意大利，個個都會互相欺負。我覺得第一，我是新人，什麼都要讓人，如果他們太過份，要欺詐的時候要反抗。我曾經和波多黎各人(Puerto Rican)要交手了，為什麼呢？做收碗筷的，每人一個站(station)的時候，他會搶你的東西拿去用，一句「借來一用」(Let me borrow it.)。 　　　　我說：無問題，我們是朋友，團結工作，是不是？(No problem. We are friends. We will work together. We should cooperate as a team, right? ) 　　　　但當你沒有的時候，他會說不要碰我們東西。(Don’t touch my stuff.) 　　　　那也是可以的，我們不要吵架。(That’s okay too. We don’t want to fight. )但是下一次，你也不要借用我的東西，我學會你的一招。(Next time, don’t borrow my stuff too. I learnt fast.) 　　　　到下次，你不讓他用，他說：「你說什麼？」(What are you talking about？)一拳就打在我的肚子上。 　　　　我知道要讓人，不要打人，我說：「可以，但不要再打了。」(That’s okay. Don’t do it again.)他說：「打你又怎樣？」(So what？) 　　　　我說：「我給你最後機會，不要再碰我。」(I give you a last chance. Don’t touch me again. ) 他又打一拳。三拳一出，我一個蔡李佛拳打回去，他整個人跌倒地上，他說：「對不起，趙先生。」(Ok, Mr. Chiu, I am sorry.)以後也不敢再欺負我了。 那是不是犯賤嗎？中國人要忍讓，但不要太過客氣，三次夠了。 問：那時那餐廳是不是只有你一個中國人？ 趙：當時有兩個中國人，不，是三個中國人，一個年紀較老，一個和我年紀差不多，我是最小，因為只有19歲，他們很怕事，別人欺負就算了，我不肯，我們要同樣的權利，我們要為華人爭光，有事要出聲，要抱不平。 　　　　除了這個，另外還有一個認為我不夠工夫材能，要和我打，他照搶，我不給，他搶過來，我一搭手，任他怎樣捉我也捉不到，我並施以還擊，讓他動彈不得，他說：「出來，我和你打，」 　　　　我馬上叫部長(captain)出來，我說：是他先惹事，如他要打架，我奉陪，但你要當證人，如他被打死，不是我的錯。(If he wants to fight, I don’t mind. But you will be the witness. If he gets killed, it is not my problem. )他搭手，我一穿，我整件衣服也給他扯開，他是懂功夫的，但我不怕。如果我要打他，我要打到他不能站起來，但我要有證人。部長摑他一耳光，說：「做工想打架，你是不是找死。」就制止了一場戰爭，但他以後不敢碰我。同時，華人有三個，他也另眼相看，不敢惹我們。 　　　　還有一件趣事，一名意大利侍應，做工時手指經常豎立，我說：「為什麼你那麼女兒態？你的手指為何經常豎起？」(How comes you are so feminine？ How come your finger always points out？ ) 　　　　他說：「不是，我受過傷，手指就這樣豎了起來，是永久的了。」(No, I hurt myself. Doctor said it’s stuck like this, forever. ) 　　　　我心想，為什麼外國人這麼笨，這是骨較的問題，我們以前學功夫時也兼學跌打， 可以弄好的，我有心使他復元。我就問他怕不怕痛。 　　　　他說：是的，我不會覺得痛。(Well, Okay I never feel pain.) 　　　　我說：「這一次你會覺得痛，但如你可以，我會處理得好。」(This time you will. but if you can, I can handle it.) 　　　　他說：不要講笑，如你可以醫好我，我會稱你為趙醫生。(Don’t be kidding. If you can fix it for me, I will call you Dr. Chiu.) 　　　　我說：你肯定你不怕痛？(Are you sure you are not afraid of pain？) 　　　　他說：不會，可以的。(No, Okay.) 　　　　我盡人事，我說：給我你的手。(Give me your hands.)這些骨較，如果你曉得去弄的話，你不怕痛，很容易弄好的。 問：這是不是跌打? 趙：我說：「給我你的手，是我的了，不要嘗試和我鬥力。」(Give me your hands. It’s mine Now. Don’t try to fight with me.) 　　　　他很自然，放軟身體，完全給我弄。我轉多兩轉，揉兩揉，一扭。他說：噢，趙醫生，趙醫生！(Oh, Dr. Chiu, Dr. Chiu!) 　　　　後來他每次看見我的時候，他都這樣叫我，他的醫生以為不可醫治的症，其實很容易，拉直，拉開，放回原位。我叫他一有空，就握著，生實了就無事。有些小事為他做，讓人尊敬，無問題，他永遠都會記得你。 　　　　在那裡的趣事，不要叫人歧視自己，有人說時時被其他人歧視，(I am always discriminated by others. )我說：「不，你不會被歧視，沒有人可以歧視你，這是美國。」(No, if you don’t discriminate yourself, nobody would discriminate against you. This is America.) 　　　　我曾經試過在地車(subway)，有個白人老人，我原本很尊老敬賢，但他說：你這骯髒的中國豬佬，不要坐在我的旁邊。(You dirty Chink pig. Don’t sit next to me.) 　　　　我說：你以為你是誰，你這骯髒的豬！(What the hell you think you are. You dirty pig! )就一屁股撞回去。他當堂嚇至動也不敢動。 　　　　我說不要歧視任何人，每個人都是平等的。(Don’t try to discriminate anybody. Everyone is equal. ) 　在美國，我真的好像沒有被人歧視我，我會以牙還牙，如果你用開玩笑的口吻對我，我會以開玩笑的口吻回敬你，如果你認為不可以回敬，你就是歧視我，你會好麻煩，我會由此跟進下去。所以很多人對我很尊敬。尤其有些人認為他是至高無上的，沒有這樣的事。美國是伸張民主的國家，我要他們做到貼貼切切。 問：做完Reubin餐館後，你還做過什麼？ 趙：當時我爸爸需要人到郊區幫他的老闆發展開新舖，問我要不要幫他忙，因我十一歲時，爸爸就到日本工作，所以我很少機會與他生活在一起，所以我說可以，我希望和爸爸在一起，那時雖然我在Reubin一星期賺到300多元，我到他老闆的餐館工作祇有二百底薪每一月，連小費祇有一仟，我還是答應跟他去。後來因為Reubin的工人做事太髒亂，又因為老闆是意大利人，以為自己大過一切，終於被衛生局關閉…。很是遺憾。 　　　　 問：你在Reubin做了多久？ 趙：我做了差不多有六個月。我記得我見到有侍應生空缺的時候，我問他，但他沒有給我，反而給了他自己人，我覺得他講過的話不算數。所以爸爸問我要不要去，我說去。 　　　　我們倆父子本來打算來美開餐館，他主廚房，我主餐樓，我們在香港買了很多裝飾餐館的物品，移民時帶來，整整有十四箱木箱行李，船運過來，因我認識船公司，他們來幫我們釘裝，幫我們執拾好。艇家沒有收我們錢，因德信行生意不錯，他們對我有禮遇(courtesy)。 在美國收貨，很容易，在香港做入口可以，為什麼在美國不可以？照樣問，自己清關，將貨搬回家來，那時請唐人街貨運幫我搬。 　　　　我和爸爸到Port Washington幫人開餐館，由sketch開始(從零開始)，我教他們，由寫菜譜(set up menu)到管理(management)，爸爸教老闆做廚，我教老闆兒子做餐樓。之後他們懂得後，爸爸到麻州又幫助別人開新舖，爸爸在Port Washington收取月薪800元，在麻省也是取800元，我則由每月由1500元，去到那裡取1000元。就算少了工資也願意，因為我想和爸爸在一起，既可彌補父子的感情，又可以照顧爸爸。後來他自己到波士頓，他們只要廚師，我就回去紐約Rubin，見到它關了門，同事說就快開門，因為富敦經理(Fulton)和衛生局對罵，以為自己大過任何人，誰不知官員一貼紙，整間餐館要關門，要清理後才可以重開，後來我幫他們開門，但其後生意一落千丈，差到不得了，一星期左右，爸爸問我：「這裡有個缺，你來不來？」我說好，就去，到麻省(諾盛頓市)Lexington，在北京園 (PEKING GARDEN) 那裡幫手做企枱。 　　　　還有一段古，到華盛頓高地(Washington Heights)坐內陸(Continental巴士) 到波士頓（Boston），等候巴士時曾差不多被打劫。我意欲避他，他卻逼近我，我蓄勢待發，幸虧巴士到站，我連隨跳上客車，避過一劫。 　　　　我曾被劫兩次，第一次在1971年在致美樓做企枱，早上等致美樓開門，三個黑人，很肥很高大，扼我的頸，想拖我去樓梯邊，我雖然個子小，但很靈敏，我一盤手擋(block)回去，他在我前面，我鬆出來，扎馬準備還要打，他們卻說：「只是開開玩笑！」(Oh, just for fun.)，我覺得很奇怪，原來他們眼見前面有個警察站在我後面不遠處，我就對警察說：「這些人想打劫我！」(These people want to mob me.) 警察卻說：「他們還沒有做什麼呢？」(They didn’t do anything yet.)我很激氣，叫「打劫！打劫！」卻沒有人理會，我很激氣，為什麼中國人不幫中國人？為什麼不團結起來？為什麼讓人欺負？這三個人一直盯著我，但沒有用，因為致美樓開門，我就進去做工，之後也沒有再見他們。 　　　　很多時華人很多時被打劫，沒有人敢出聲，因為沒有自己的地位，以前在華人社區，根本上沒有人理會 (care for) 你。垃圾一大堆，污糟辣塌。更有人說華人愛拿救濟的身份，所以愛骯髒，但如果是真的話，華埠不會這麼繁榮，又增多了許多人。除了9/11以後慘很多，但比起32年前，華人能夠自強不息，什麼都自力更生，看看孔子大廈、且林士果廣場 (Chatham Square) 、且林士果．格林 (Chatham Green)、嘉華銀行，永明大廈都是好例子，是自己建築的，在顯利街 (Henry St.) 就有亨通大廈，陸續下去，華人本身有一個階段經濟飽和的時間。是的，9/11 害到華人很慘，故此中華公所、福建僑團、客屬僑團一起出來，一起推廣，希望能夠重新繁榮華埠。 問：那時華埠是怎樣的？ 趙：那時華埠很破爛，不若現在旺，32年從一個很陋習的地方發展為一個衛星城市，如不相信可走一走勿街 (Mott)、百老匯(Broadway)、東百老匯(East Broadway)，格蘭(Grand)街，賣菜、賣魚、賣肉、禮物店，是的，在9/11之後是差了一大截，9/11之後的兩三倍就是9/11之前的景象。當然，將來一直繁榮華埠，如更加見效，很需要聯邦政府，州政府，大家合作，作為一個團隊(as a team)，他們一起來這裡，那華埠會很好，也需要哈曼頓下城發展公司(LMDC)、我愛紐約(I Love New York)、帝國州發展局(Empire State)等一直幫忙， 是的，人力財力可能不足，我的看法是羊毛出在羊身上，不要說要拿很多救濟，我們要想幫到多些，以華人的精神，自強不息，自力更生，夥同 (partner) 一起作團隊 (as a team)，完滿地將華人的地位提升。 　　　　亦看到官員由漠不關心到更多關心華埠，因為人口多了，我們要多謝新移民，很相信如果不是人口多了，也不會有這些多政客垂青華埠。希望大家要新舊移民混合一起，團結一致，搞好社區，使社區更安定繁榮，和政府更多幫助這社區。 (Side 2 of tape) 問：趙先生，我知道你有很多生意，9/11對你生意有什麼影響？ 趙：我在美國32年，我在華埠正式做事在這二十年，為什麼有10年不在華埠，甚至在華埠沒有發展生意？因為開始時華埠地方爛，人丁少，被欺負、被打劫時沒有人理會你，覺得是一個很冷酷的地方，不喜歡到。 　　　　那時和爸爸到麻省(Massachusetts)，那裡也有唐人街，沒有這一邊旺，很少華人餐館，我們在美國兩年，便還清爸爸的債務，又從新借貸，建立我們的將來。在朋友的介紹下，也是幫我們租屋的鄭伯伯，在Setauket開一家外賣餐館，爸爸主內，我主外，主理樓面及銀櫃(counter)。我想這都是命運的安排， 因為中國餐在近郊(suburb)不很流行，要慢慢介紹(educate)，感謝神(Thank God)因我懂英文，我去介紹和解釋。 　　　　但剛剛開始時，爸爸因心臟病過世，他在美國不足三年就過世了。當時店中的重任放在我的身上，我要主外又要主內，本身起初時，不會煮菜，在香港明愛青年中心，曾做籌款，有幾度菜做得不錯，是爸媽教導的。在這裡，跟了爸爸一段時候，不是完全懂得煮，在美國沒有人，除了爸爸幾個好朋友以外，什麼人也不認識，什麼都要自己去闖，咬緊牙關，第一做到自力更生。在美國30年來，爸爸的宗旨是希望我們接受美國教育，將來有些前途，第二希望發展比在香港好，由於這兩點，30年來，由最困難的時候，我沒有接受過政府一毛錢的救濟，政府也提供 (offer) 過，但我們沒有接受，因為不是為拿這些，因為要自己奮鬥，爸爸說，自己做出來的事物，吃得特別甜。我一直抱著這個宗旨。 　　　　媽媽因為爸爸很早過世，傷心欲絕，她只能在旁邊看著我們，很難做工。我媽媽很早嫁給爸爸，跟他到上海，兩年不足，到香港，生了我。在1960年八、九歲時，我爸爸到日本八年，等於我媽媽見爸爸的時間也不是太多。到美國以後，媽媽以為可以跟爸爸團聚，雖然說我們是很幸福的家庭，但來到這裡也有不幸的事發生，就是爸爸早逝。 　　　　美國雖然有保險，但我們違反這規條，我們中國人覺得不吉利，不喜歡聽這些東西，只會自保， 我們早期未能領會這點，直至我做這間餐館，保險公司的經理是我餐館的客戶，他問：「為什麼不見那個肥佬 (他不知道是我爸爸) 煮東西？」提起這些傷心的事情，我說他是我們的爸爸，已經過世。他說：「噢！對不起，噢，有沒有買人壽保險呢？」(Oh, sorry. Oh, does he have any life insurance?) 我說沒有，我們不相信這些，他問：「為什麼不買?」(Why not?) 我說在香港很多人沒有這些興趣，不信這些。我們再談話講及這些理念及理想，他就講了一句，令我覺得好似被打了一大拳，他說：「如果你和爸爸都相信這些保險，又買了一份，最起碼他可以實現他的理想，而你可以做些你喜歡的事情。」這句說話擊中我的要害。我問：「但是，誰會知道你們的保險，真正有得賠償？」他亦很客觀地說，我亦不要你馬上相信我的話，你可以抽時間下來我的公司，自己查證一下，聽下及問下。我覺得有理由，我就去他公司查問了三個月，然後同意去考保險師牌照。 　　　　當時有30多個學生，好像只有我一個有問題，我的問話很刁鑽，由頭問到腳，我每次都說：「可能我蠢一點，但我不明白，希望你能解釋給我聽。」導師說：「你不蠢，其實你是最聰明的一個，個個你以為他們明白，但他們扮懂，但其實不懂(pretend that they know but they don’t.)」於是30多人之中只有3個考到牌，包括我。導師(trainer)說，我不是告訴過你嗎？ (Did I tell you something？)我說他說得對。(You are right.)其他都肥佬 (不合格)，三個考到之中，只有我一個做了30年。人生真的很難說。 　　我忘記起初的問題是什麼？ 問：我是問，你覺得唐人街的變化？ 趙：唐人街的變化從很多酒鬼在包厘到現在一個酒鬼都沒有；從一兩萬元至幾千元可以買到一座樓，到現在幾百萬元起； 變化相當大，從幾家美國銀行，到現在華人開的銀行及外資進來的銀行，以這樣小的地方，在這麼多的銀行，是很少見的。所以說，華埠的變化不大，那是不對的。 　　　　華埠將來當然更加好，但我們需要聯邦政府、州政府、市政府來和我們一起工作，(work as a team)來華埠幫手，華埠才可以重建，才能夠做得更加好。我們發覺到政府都是有這種心意，希望華埠的商家，能夠和所有願意和華埠合作的人，將華埠的精要點，完全可以上到網頁(internet)，讓我們的子孫見到，可以在華埠看到我們的輝煌歷史，在慘淡的時候，看到我們的掙扎，奮鬥；和他們做生意，讓他們明白中國人的文化，給好榜樣給外國人看， 問：你是否早期華埠第一個經營保險(insurance)的人？ 趙：可以這麼說，我在1974年爸爸過世，1975年4月28日開始和紐約人壽正式簽約，在福州人當中，只有倆人，我是其中之一。當時簽約以為做20年，便可以退休，其實沒有可能退休，拿到資深代理（Senior Nylic Agent）好難將客戶棄之不理，唯有再做，30年拿到高級拿到資深代理（Post Senior Nylic Agent），但做到那時，更難將客戶棄之不理，所以，要做到死的一天為止。 問：你覺得9/11對保險業的影響如何？ 趙：9/11對保險業影響很大，除了紐約人壽保險以外，因公司批准我，可以做商業保險，及家庭房產保險，所以我也銷售物業及傷亡、家居、責任，及保証險(property and casualty, homeowner, liability and bonds)。除紐約人壽外，投資、共同基金、退休基金(investment, mutual fund、IRA)、連車、屋、布、廠房、車衣廠、工傷保險，工病保險、別人需要的保証險(bonds)，我全部都有。20年前，到華埠，第一個地方租永明大廈，十年以後，租宰也(Doyers)街11號，到現在來到這一邊。 為什麼中間少了一段時間？因為我在外州及石溪 (Stony Brook) 附近的事多吉（Setauket）做餐館。 　　　　為什麼我又做保險？因為我的爸爸到美不足三年就去世了，一毛錢保險都沒有。經理跟我說：「你知不知道和你一樣的華人，需要你的幫助，告訴他們保險的好處？」我由那裡開始，到今日為止，我都本著服務的宗旨，希望將這一個好消息及好處分給華人，除了民主之外，還要有保障，所謂有保障，就是家人所有的尊嚴不能給其他人侵佔傷害，因為一家之主或兩個主力做楝樑，支持家中主要收入者，萬一其中一個或兩個不在，他們仍然如印錢機器，不停地印，使家人有生活保障，如果這人不在，好像機器壞了，要有人幫你印錢，那就是紐約人壽燕梳（保險），所以家家擁有最好，對他們就有很好的保障。如沒有事，更好，因為裡面有很多錢積聚，作退休補助之用，我們有很多客戶，退休時拿出來的錢比退休金還多，退休金只有幾百元，他們有30年的保險，他們聽我講可以做到無憂米，他們的晚年現在生活得很好。 問：9/11對保險業的影響如何？ 趙：9/11對保險業影響，尤其是物業及傷亡科(p&c，property and casualty)影響重大，因為9/11倒塌後的樓宇，付出的要賺回來，很多人因為生意做不來，保險費又貴，有些人說：「現在食也保不住，如何保，不保了，搏一搏，做得不來就關門。」生意難做，因為保費貴，貴就寧願不買了。 問：比9/11之前貴了多少？ 趙：貴很多，兩三年漲的保險費升了40至50%，每年升10至20%，加起來要40至50%，因為損失了的錢始終要取回，籌集(recruit) 所有的錢，所以生意不好做，但，是不是完全沒有了？那又不是，在別的地方補回來。如人壽保險反而好做，因為人們清楚明白，無端端不可預知的，我當時預備過橋，看著它一直倒塌，好慘，眼淚一直留下來，覺得沒有可能，但是發生了。 問：9/11發生時，你在那裡？ 趙：我在橋頭，因為有消息不准過，因為那天要早出去，不然不會這麼早出去。當不能過橋的時候，我打電話到五分局問他們需不需要翻譯，譬如華埠很多人不懂英文，人們不知道發生什麼事，告訴人們要不要走，要他們走避。我一直打電話，但到下午六時都沒有人接電話，為什麼呢？因為每個人都在外面搶救人，已經沒有人接電話，真好像戰亂，完全失去消息，有幸入不了唐人街，因為有兩三天都不能出來，起碼有兩三個星期才准去唐人街，而且要帶證件。 問：你覺得9/11事件如何？ 趙：我覺得民主是好的，但是太民主是一個禍害，為什麼可以這樣說？因為恐怖份子能夠從容犯罪，為什麼可以搬石頭打自己的腳？就是因為美國太民主，以致很多剛做事新興的年青人，因為相信很大部份航空業的從業員都是年青人， 他們無憂無慮，吃得好，住得好，教育好，最緊要享受，平日做工，你可以看見他們傾偈，天南地北。取工資應該要做事，而不是談話，講笑，就是因為這班人，他們讓恐怖份子劫了飛機也不知道，走了一小時才撞進世貿中心。反映美國政府及美國國民制度需要檢討，如果不能像華人般自強不息，不鼓勵自己做得更好，而苟且偷安，則遲早有事發生。不要怪布殊(Bush)有情報不知，不要怪克林頓(Clinton)做得不好，反而要學約翰．甘迺迪(J.F. Kennedy)，不要問國家可以給你什麼，你要問你有什麼可以貢獻給國家？我們本身要貢獻自己本身的能力，搞好華埠，9/11雖然很殘酷，但如果個個人都有這份心力，華埠必定興起碼多一半以上。 　　　　如果你不同意，你可以看看，以新華僑為計，你可以去東百老匯看看，9/11之後，華埠有沒有沉過？你可以去看看，要做的，不單是東百老匯(East Broadway)簡單，別的地方也很重要，你說珠寶行業、禮品行業、餐館行業，如果沒有外面的人來到這裡，華埠就很傪了。 　　　　再說回來，哥倫布公園地底亭車場計劃，如有辦法，可以有多層地底的停車場，六、七、八層，等他們有地底停車場，有幾千輛車可得到這裡的泊車位，他們才可以多來，不會憂慮有沒有地方泊車，不會憂慮是否付得起車費，讓華埠變成購物天堂，食品天堂。更多人來華埠，華埠絕對可以興起。 　　　　現在政府已研究在那裡做，哥倫布公園(Columbus Park)已放在名單之內，希望能夠成功通過，以哥倫布公園為一個，我夠膽說：華埠的泊車(parking)、聯邦政府、州政府、市政府的公務員的泊車(parking)，完全可以不需擔心，沒有爭議。我們做事，一定要做要一針見血，不要馬虎，張冠李戴，其實很多事做得不對。我覺得哥倫布泊車(Columbus Parking) 一層可以泊到300至400輛車，如果全面興建停車場七、八、九、十層， 可以泊三至四千輛車，華埠還可以載更多人，可以增建，生意可以更加好做，泊車費可以比較便宜，反正是一處地方，經濟可以做了，公園(park)一樣可以做，變不變是地底的建設，以今天的科技可以做得到。 問：何時可以落實這計劃？ 趙：計劃正在研究中，我是哈曼頓下城發展公司(LMDC)顧問團其中一個顧問，已經開了兩次會，在四月會公佈，以繁榮華埠為目的，希望這次他們能夠順利通過，將來會做很多公共關係(public relations)，搞很多活動(events)，已經有整套計劃，其實明早十時又要開會了，其中有時都會談論這方面的事情。 問：趙先生，除了保險業，你還有很多生意，可不可以談談？ 趙：不單是我的生意，就以旅遊業來說，9/11以後，幾乎全部要倒閉，當時是團隊(team work)的開始，很多批發商(wholesaler)互相支持，互相關懷；有很多已經關門，沒有生意；如分散很多地方，也不能做。我們家族的旅行社沒有生意，因為沒有人出埠，到現在才陸續有些，有些訂酒店、租車、去旅遊，國內仍不是很多。 　　　　將來是否復甦仍屬未知素。尤其是航空公司將會壟斷，不需要用到第三者經理(agent)作媒介，將會有一個層次被淡出(phase out)，只有很少剩下來，不像現在這麼多，因為根本沒有辦法維持生計。 問：那末，你自己的六鳳旅行社在那裡？ 趙：其實我們只有一個辦公室，什麼生意都包攬。在以前就會分開部門，現在只有一間，將開支減少才有辦法生存。我們也不習慣申請什麼經費(funding)，我們覺得可以掂就掂，不成功就關門。 問：其實9/11對你們的打擊有多大？ 趙：9/11的打擊令旅遊業幾乎完全沒有生意，因為只有熟客，做少少，比較以前差得很遠。 問：旅遊的套餐(package)主要是國內的嗎？ 趙：國內幾乎都沒有人去遊覽了。外面來的人又說反非典(SARS)，又說防恐，很多簽證不成，來不到美國。反而新僑取得綠卡，回鄉或返港，就有些生意，否則根本不會有生意。 問：你從事旅遊的生意，有三十多年嗎？ 趙：旅遊生意，從1971年開始做，做到現在，起初剛到的時候，只做了一陣子，後來來到這一邊，在長島的事多吉(Setauket)做，到後來買了回來，我們到華埠時，也沿用Setauket Travel，因為Setauket是鄉下名，中文名則叫六鳳，為什麼叫六鳳？因為六鳳是我爸爸出生的家鄉，中文名不變，後到在華埠就英文名叫「華埠旅遊」(Chinatown Travel)。 問：依你所見，現在的華埠是否旅遊業的谷底？ 趙：現在是華埠旅遊業的最低潮，是掙扎求存的時候，團結很重要，如大家肯辛苦些，艱苦經營，希望有個生機，否則真的不容易了。 問：除此之外，你還有什麼生意？ 趙：出入口，9/11時我做過海蜇頭，但是貨停滯，不能賣出，我的損失很嚴重。貨存在倉裡，不能賣，要倒掉，苦不堪言。做這一門生意，如果客人不付錢，我們就不再取貨，我們就再不入這項貨品，所以幾乎沒有得做。 問：為什麼這行入口食品特別受影響？ 趙：因為9/11後，餐館業蕭條，人們的收入受影響，經濟蕭條，誰會吃這些奢侈品？海蜇頭算是奢侈品，很貴$7,8,9,10一包，劣質的才賣$3。 問：當時損失多少？ 趙：實質的損失有數十萬，血本無歸，要付倉租，其他的錢已付出，不能取回，損失很慘重。 問：你有這麼多不同的生意，9/11對你是否很大的打擊？ 趙：正式來說，對任何人都是一個很大的打擊，對我來說亦是一個打擊，幸好有保險行業可以保存，算是苟延殘喘。 問：趙先生，你是福州人，以前來的福州人和現在的福州人有甚麼分別，或者現在在大陸的福州又如何？ 趙：現在福州人和以前的福州人有很大的分別。1971年來，你會認得到那些是這裡的人，那些是走船來的人，他們10個中有9個半是蓋著頭，左顧右盼，低下頭，我不忍心他們給別人認出來，我會拍拍他們的肩膊，嚇他們一大跳，我和他先講廣東話，如果他不曉得回答，我就用小時候學的不純正的福州話跟他們說，如發覺真是福州鄉里，我就提醒：「你不要這樣一縮一縮走路，你這樣縮頭縮尾，人們會知道你走船，會有人拘捕你，像我這樣走路，就沒有人會拉你。」我敢說，很多人都會記得我這樣說過。哈哈。 問：以前偷渡為什麼這樣容易？ 趙：其實也不是這般容易，因為以前的海員有通行證(pass)，他們用通行證上了岸就不回去，所以叫跳船，以前除了這個方法之外，也沒有很多其他方法，所以大部份都是跳船來。因為他們在裡面做工，作為一個水手或一個海員(as a seaman, sailor or as a crew)，或者在廚房幫手，運貨等，所以等來到美國時逃走，就不返回去船。很少在船上跳入海，然後游泳，入來，並不是這個意思。 　　　　就像留學生，到美國後，覺得都是在美國好，就找人擔保，不回去。或旅遊來，做生意覺得在美國好， 都留下來，不回去。其實都是其中一個轉變身份的方法，或者你或是很有錢，可以旅遊簽證入境，或做生意取綠卡，也好，也沒有錯。(It’s good. Nothing wrong with that.) 如果是其他人，沒有這麼優厚的條件，變了用適合自己的方法。 　　　　那我是否反對任何一個非法入境的人？其實不然，因為美國人本身都是偷渡入境，侵佔他人的國境，才成為一個美國。任何一個土生土長的人，認為移民是不對的、是犯法，是應該制裁的，那是不對的，就好像摑自己一下耳光，除非他們是紅印第安人。任何一人都不應該反對，否則他們今天就不應該在這裡了。 　　　　但我們應有一個方法，幫助他們行正軌，因為有一少部份新移民到美國作奸犯科，危害華人或公眾安全，我們亦見到有些華人被欺壓、凌辱、暗殺、謀殺。如果我們能夠團結一起，互相幫助，我們的力量就會很大，為什麼呢？我們華人人口越多，將來票數越多，將來政客就會替我們做得好，更加體貼入微。如果大家互相殘殺，互相排斥的話，我們所得到的，只會被政客利用。我們需要官員做我們的公僕，為我們服務，他們出來代表我們華人，也要真真正正為我們服務。否則，我們沒有發生作用。 問：趙先生，這麼多年來，你一定回去福州看過，你的感覺又如何？ 趙：我回福州看過，我在1980年，即十年之後，第一次經香港去福州，因我媽媽辛辛苦苦，跟爸爸回福州來到香港，來到美國，也未返回過福州，直至1977年，她回去。我沒有錢，到銀行借錢讓她回去看看她的父母，一償她的宿願。然後，我媽媽希望她的父母來美國玩，1980年我返去福州帶他們到廣州簽證，帶他們經香港來美國。來到這裡， 終於我外公問我媽媽一句，「如果我死了，你會如何處置我的遺體？」我媽媽說：「如果你喜歡，你在這裡陪我的丈夫。」外公說：「不可以，這裡太靜，我要回去。」媽說：「你不用現在趕著回去，你留在這裡，我答應你如你百年歸老，我送你回去。」外公說：「如果到時你不送我回去，我又怎樣？我在那裡比較熱鬧些，」他堅持一定要返回中國，他說我們落地歸根也是好的。老人家已經80多歲，留在這裡，只望著天，對著四度牆，雖然我們住在二層歐式住宅 (colonial) ，家中也不算小，有前後花園走動，但老人家也不習慣。他便和我外婆回去，兩年之後，我外公他老人家過身了，已經是90多歲。我和媽媽回去為他做喪事，那時我正在外州(西維吉尼亞州 West Virginia) 公司為我們召開最高層會議，也要向公司請假趕回來，陪媽媽到中國辦喪事，事後再回來美國。現在我外婆仍健在，她亦來過美國2,3次，她又覺得悶，又回去中國。 　　　　返回去說在1980年見到福州的情形，可以講，由香港踏入廣州我一直在哭，為什麼？因為中國當時很慘，灰塵滾滾，什麼都沒有，我想：中國這樣窮，為什麼不會讓人看扁？到上海日日擠車，12公里可以開車兩小時也到不了目的地，我步行也應該到。覺得很落後，很慘。 　　　　下到福州，風一吹，黃沙滾滾，樓宇又爛，什麼都沒有，中國真的很慘，那是在1980年。 　　　　1982年回去就開始看見轉變，1984年因為要為外公辦喪事。1983年代表這裡的社區捐錢辦龍舟比賽，鼓吹體育，組團回去，又不同了。每次回福州都看見轉變，去年9月時，到處是高速公路(highway)，到處是天橋，馬路井然有序，樓房高到看不見，看不盡。起初1980年回去時，單車多到你過不了馬路，現在二樓興建行人天橋， 不需要行馬路，在華埠鼓吹的行人天橋，在二樓塔過去，不需要在地面過馬路，車仍然是車水馬龍。二樓還創商機，可以做生意，人們在二樓兼做生意，不單是在樓下，我覺得是好事，這是龐大的計劃，日後有錢還應擴展。 　　　　將來正式要繁榮華埠，也會建議需要這樣的建設。 問：在福州看見這麼繁榮的變化，是不是因為移民回去發展？ 趙：不單止是新移民，還有舊移民，回去買樓投資，做生意，也不單是福州市，福州市郊，甚至長樂市，都完全翻新，鄉下地方建設還比城市較多，馬路及高速公路(highway)建設發達，由福州至廈門，現在只需一個鐘頭，以前開車要8個鐘頭，交通發達，樓房多得很，住的人反而比較少。樓價也不會貴下去，因為供不應求才貴，供過於求會跌。 　　　　我曾帶警察團回去中國，他們說：現在我明白了為什麼新移民冒死也來美國，願意滙錢回中國來，寧願來這裡付擔沉重的債務，因為他們在美國捱幾年回去，就可以在鄉下，建三、四層高樓，用的不是紅磚，是漂亮的白磚，並滿舖欄杆，好像有錢人住的地方，很豪華。 問：你做過什麼其他公積？ 趙：其實我做事從來不想過有回報，做完就算。做得較大的，是幫人檢命，是金旅號那回擱淺，浸死十個人，我們在社區以美國福建工商總會的名義，將受害人的屍首領(claim)回來，幫他們入土為安，並找回家屬。有4位很幸運，很容易找到家屬，有名字，有家屬領回。還有六位比較不幸，我們幫他收殮，由五福殯儀館的麥潔明陳太，和應行久太太金玉堂出一萬元，我們出力，五福殯儀館幫手出錢出力，不足之額由五福補貼。做善事很多方法。到現時為止，我們還在找尋死者的家屬。其中一位可能會找到，因為十年以後，華文新聞業朋友找我，再次在報上作呼籲，有家屬來問遺失十年的兒子在那裡，但因為留下的血太少，只有一滴血，而大概需要一方吋才夠化驗遺傳因子(DNA)，不知道可不可以，如果發現是相同，是真正親屬，則可多認一個。 問：金旅號是否大部份是福州人？ 趙：大部份是福州人，但發覺也有溫州人，因為第二個來領屍的親屬是溫州人，在認領的時候，移民局還說要拉人，我們說他們沒有人道，後來放了才無事。因為美國有民主政制，說她不民主他們就不舒服，才肯公開(release)十個人的名字，讓人收領出來，當時每一個人要我簽紙才能認領(claim)，因為是我領屍出來的。 問：這宗慘劇對移民有什麼啟示？ 趙：正式來說，讓他們知道，不要以為美國是天堂。每次我回去解釋給他們，他們就當我唱歌，當我是假的。第一，美國是勞改營，無人應每天做工13至14小時，但我在美國32年，我起碼每天做13小時，所以我說美國是勞改營。他們說：「那你又留在美國?」我說：「我沒有辦法。」他們硬是不相信。 　　　　他們說美國是天堂，我說：「美國是天堂，亦是地獄，」如果賺不到錢，你就在地獄，如果賺到錢，在那裡都是天堂，不單在美國是天堂，在中國也是天堂。我說「你們身在福中不知福，現在如果你們不用做事也有得食，在美國沒有做事就沒有得食。」當時沒有人信我，來到這裡，才知道我講的是對的，他們向我說：「如果聽你話就好了，不聽你話就慘了。」 問：金旅事件發生後，在大陸及福州是否會警惕，會比較少人來美？ 趙：我想他們掩藏得不錯，沒有很多人知道有金旅號這些事件，因為蓋得密。反而在外國的人就知道，因為在國外的中國朋友在電視看到，我們收殮那些死者，還到沙灘超渡，報紙有報導，所以他們知道。 　　　　我們和社區做的事，最大的有重開格蘭街地車站(Grand Street Station)，到最後，我要求一條巴士線由格蘭街車站(Grand St. Station)到DeKalb Ave. ，不需乘客周圍(到處)走，周圍轉車。最後他們都做到。做曼哈頓橋，本來說要八年的長時間，縮到現在兩年，格蘭街地車站(Grand Street Station)就通車了。所以幫手做的事，都有好的結果。 至於清潔華埠，我們亦盡一分力，但他不是太見效，我認為我們的華埠應有自己私人的倒垃圾車，在某個時候，如垃圾已經堆滿，應該要完全清理，我覺得多付一點錢也是值得的，使華埠地方更清潔，更多人更樂意來華埠購物。因為首先華埠物價已經便宜。 　　　　補路方面，華埠很多地方爛，東百老匯已經正在轉好，上個月我還投訴，(complain)，因為兩年前撥款已經下來做宰也街及東百老匯的路面，他們還說沒有經費，我說：「你不能說沒有經費，因為聯邦政府已經撥款下來。你說其他理由，我或者可以接受，但不是藉口。」後來真的在一星期後，他們開始動工。希望他們做得好，但我見到他們做的馬路，不是以前做的7吋厚，現在只是做2,3吋，我覺得那是敷衍形式。但他們說，若馬路要全翻時，做法同現在不同。希望他們真的做好，因為東百老匯有兩個地方，時時都下陷，補完又下陷，補完又下陷，如果沒有這情況，就算是替華埠造福。 　　　　除了這些以外，我本人認為，是華埠的泊車位不夠，日日都有人投訴，說公職人員泊佔用泊車位，為什麼不設地底停車場城，有三、四層，讓他們可泊個飽？不會阻地方。 或者做一至三條有自動電梯上落的行人天橋，能在馬路高空架橋讓老人能自己行走，不會阻車，降低老年行人被車碰倒枉死街頭，這會否令華埠繁榮？ 問：這計劃何時推出？ 趙：我相信哈曼頓下城發展公司(LMDC) 可以說，有七成在我理想中已經做到，我覺得這些是很重要，且是必要的，因為華埠現時和30年前已經完全不同，9/11以後，中國人講一句「今非昔比」，9/11後，比以前差，但要華埠比以前更好，如泊車很重要，如果住的地方也不夠，那有地方泊車？如果我想到華埠，一停車起碼要二、三十元， 倒不如在自己家附近用膳，也不過是數十元。 　　　　我也希望另外一個計劃──第二大道的地車站儘快點建成，盡快開始越好，對繁榮華埠是一個很大幫忙。32年來，我們華埠沒有正式的車站，如在來了華埠是一大方便，在勿街頭（Mott），東百老匯 (East Broadway) 與袙道（Park Row）頭的角落，只要在東百匯、袙道頭地下鑿一個洞在那裡就可以了，地車就在下面，希望能夠越快開就越好，能夠繁榮華埠。 問：趙先生，你當初覺得警民關係不太好，這幾年有沒有轉變？ 趙：警民關係這幾年轉變很大，我曾經到警察總局分析華人的心態，不要以為華人和警察對抗，和做警察對華人應該有的禮貌及態度。可能因為這樣，所以我結識了一班警官，和我關係很好，所以我帶他們回國內，他們也發現到大部份的華人都很好，除了一小撮要他們去對付，所以他們對華人的態度已經好了很多。 　有一次在東百老匯警察捉小販，警察到時，小販走，警察走時，小販再回來，警察一直拘捕不到小販，很激氣，有一名華人警察把小孩子當垃圾般擲入警車，個個華人都嘩然，叫我將警察控告。被捕者很怕，一來沒有身份，二來怕放出來後，不能生存，會被警察逼害。同時，這個警察亦是華人警察，是初次犯事。雖然有人說：「如果不教訓他，他以後更惡，」認為警察很囂張像香港殖民地的警察。 我第一次和他對立時，他當時很激氣，我們不能怪他，因為他當時很激氣，氣上心頭，我也很氣。 　　　　我很平淡跟他說：「我知道你現在很氣，氣上心頭，但我要告訴你，如果你今日擲的是我的兒子，我會拔槍打死你，你做了一些很愚蠢的的事，是警官不應該做的，如果你不道歉，我會令你不好過，所有的記者就在警察局門前面，你要不要在明日的報紙上刊登你的名字，包括紐約時報？你也會失去工作，他說：「好，我就道歉。」他關上門就向當事人一家道歉，他們都向我喝采，我希望和平解決，而不是鬥爭，他知道自己有錯，知錯能改，就是我想做到的，我不想釘死一個人，如使他失業，領救濟，又為了什麼？我們要一個好的社區，共同合作，每個人都會犯錯，對不對？ 　　(I know you are very mad at this moment and very excited. But let me tell you one thing. If the child you threw is my son, I will pull my gun and shoot you. You are doing something very stupid, not supposed to do by an officer. If you don’t want to say a sorry and apologize for this act. I am going to put you down.” He tried to confront me. I told him, wait a moment, I let you open the door and let you see what kind of weapons we have. All the reporters are at the front door. Do you want me to put you on all the newspaper tomorrow including New York Times? And you will lose your job too. He said, “Alright, I will apologize.” Then he closed the door and apologized to the victim and family. They all greeted at me. I want them to be at peace, not fight. As long as he knows he is wrong. He corrects it. This is what I am looking for. I don’t want to nail one person. And he loses his job and goes for welfare, for what？ We want a good community. We have to work together. Everybody will make some mistakes, right?) 問：那是什麼年份的事？ 趙：這是幾年前的事，現在我們有警民關係，有警少年，我們青少年看見有事，馬上報告，讓警察能夠快點破案，捉人，我們有警察日，社團有贊助參與，聖誕節捐錢給警察局，買禮物送給街坊小孩，打指模、刻印，這都是警民合作的活動。 問：五分局和現在有什麼不同，現在是否同一地點？ 趙：地點是一様的，以我所知道五分局30年前已經在這裡，到今日為此，我在裡頭認識一些警長，都很不錯，有幾位對華人很好， 尤其是當奴．力高 (Ronald Lekos) ，他是希臘裔，對華人更加愛護，很幫華人。我們有個陳文業。可能將來有位劉家和(Michael Lau)，我現稱他為劉警長(Captain Lau)，現在警察總局做公共關係科。 問：即是說，你很滿意現時的警民關係？ 趙：正式來說，他們可以做得更好，當然亦可能是資金及人力的問題。 問：趙先生，你有小朋友這裡，你對子女的期望如何？ 趙：正式來說，中國人說「養兒防老」，但現在不叫養兒防老，叫「作育英才」，希望他們學到東西，加上家庭的教育，能夠知道什麼是中國人的禮法，能夠更上一層樓，所謂「青出於藍勝於藍」，但如果不可以也沒有辦法，因為美國教育很自由民主，甚至過火，你很難能夠令子女完全…。 　　　　我的大兒子在兵咸頓大學(Binghamton University)唸書，他是後備的國民防衛軍(National Guard Reserve)，正在學修理直昇機 (Black Hawk)，因為他有意在軍區當 (crew chief) , 這職位要曉得修理整架直昇機，和使用直昇機內的機關槍。去年教新丁用槍射擊，將來幫到國家也很不錯，亦希望他將來讀書更好。 　　　　我的二兒子唸第一年級，成績也不錯，想做科學家，不為賺錢，希望他能夠做一個出色的科學家，否則也學到一些東西，對將來的家庭及自己有作用。 問：你來美國這麼久，9/11又發生了，你覺得美國怎樣？是不是仍然覺得美國是一個好國家？ 趙：美國是一個好好的國家，民主是應該的，但千萬不能過火，小孩子如果太民主或錯用民主，很多事情可以發生，甚至有邪教，非法人士用民主來呃錢，不能坐視不理。見到時要點出來。 問：你還有沒有事情要補充？ 趙：我正要反問你有什麼要補充，我太多東西要說，講也講不完，我可以再講三天也可以。 問：譬如你對唐人街有什麼期望？ 趙：如果我們要共同相處，一起合作，我們要華埠興旺，「家和萬事興，家衰口不停，」以這個為宗旨，大家團結一致，不要搶你的功勞，我的功勞，大家都有功勞，一個人永遠做不了什麼，以team(團隊)的姿態出現，做事，我相來將來的華埠更加好，希望不需要等30年，相信三五年之內更加好，希望成就能加倍，才能表示到大家團結一致，共創華埠，我深信華埠的光明要靠我們這一群，團結從事，我很相信會做到，並且會很成功。 問：非常謝謝你接受訪問，今天是2004年3月30日。這是美國華人博物館的華埠口述歷史訪問計劃，訪談者是趙伯銘先生，訪問者是我吳翊菁。 趙：謝謝(Thank you)。 （完） Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William Chiu 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Tony Wang Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-04-01 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation Sino Broadcast Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Well, today is April 1st, 2004. I’m sitting in the office of Tony Wong, here at Sino Television on Broadway. Tony, let’s start off in the present. Tell us a little bit about what Sino television is and what you do here. Wong: Well, Sino Television has been in operations for the past six years. We started off in Flushing, Queens, actually. First we started on one channel, Channel 78. It’s a 24/7 Chinese language TV station. Then, after two years, when Time Warner roll out its digital platform, we were given two more channels, and they’re all on digital format. So right now we move our operation back to Manhattan, because we have a radio station here as well, also in Chinese language. By locating these two properties here, we thought that we could utilize our resources better and serve our Chinese public better. Q: Okay. Well, we’re going to have plenty of time to talk more about your work and the role that I know Sino Television has played in the Chinese community. But first, we want to learn about you, as an individual. Have you always been interested in media? What was your background? Wong: Yeah, I have always been interested in the media. First of all, I was born and grew up in Hong Kong. I came here to study broadcasting. I got my Bachelor’s Degree in Eastern Washington State University in the West Coast, and I came here for my graduate study. And I was very, very fortunate that right after graduation I found a job with WNBC, Channel 4. And I spent a lot of years at NBC, and I have never taken up any other professions, other than in communications. It was either in television or on radio, or in marketing in the media. Q: And what year was it when you first arrived in America? Wong: I arrived here, I believe it was September 1st, 1971. Q: Wow. A long time ago. [laughter] And did you have relatives in America? Wong: No, no, no. I didn’t. I had, actually, no. I went to a very small town, Spokane Washington. I didn’t know a single soul. But I was very, very, fortunate. You know, I had a college professor that didn’t know me but they were very kind people and they played as a host family, and so when I first came here, I stayed with him, and he was also in the business as well. He was a professor teaching journalism, but he was also a local anchor person at a local TV station. So, I can say that personally and professionally I’ve been involved with the media almost all my entire life in the States. <a name="here"></a> Q: So when you were in Hong Kong, now, were your family always in Hong Kong, or did they come from China, or elsewhere? Wong: My families were always in Hong Kong, yeah. Even my parents, they, as far as I know, they claimed they were born in Hong Kong. Q: And you didn’t have British citizenship? Wong: At that time, I had a British passport. But whether that is considered a British citizenship, I don’t know. I think, shortly after I got married here, I and my wife traveled to London, I was still holding a British passport, and I believe I still had to apply for a visa to get into London. So I don’t think that is a British citizenship. Q: And you didn’t consider going to school in England instead of America? Wong: Well, not that I didn’t want to, I think at that time the general consensus was that going to England was too expensive. And I grew up in a very poor family. I mean, the fact that I could come here was a miracle itself. I was able to find a college that even for out of state students I think at that time it was like three thousand dollars, everything included, room and board and college tuition. So, it’s a matter of necessity rather than preference. If you ask me what would I have prefer, I probably at that time, I probably would have said London because I think a degree from England was worth more than a degree from the United States, you know. Q: And what did your family do in Hong Kong? Wong: My mother---my father pass away when I was eight years old. My mother had four children. My mother owned a vegetable store, like a stand. I basically grew up on the street there. Q: So very working class. Wong: Very. Very. Extremely. Yeah. Q: And when you decided to come to America, did you know already you wanted to pursue a career in media? Wong: Yes, Absolutely. First of all, I always [coughs], even when I was a kid, I always dream of going abroad, you know, and the fact that I wanted to go into the media is because at that time I wanted to be a camera person, that maybe I can afford to travel to different parts of the world, and go either photo shooting or movie shooting, but I never get a chance to do that. But I’m doing something that is related to production. Q: But Hong Kong in the ‘70s, as far as television, only has several networks--- Wong: Only one. TVB. Q:---TVB. And like--- Wong: I don’t even, at that time I don’t think TVB, no--- Q: ATV didn’t exist yet? Wong: No, ATV didn’t exist. I think it was just TVB. Like any kid, I thought that when I finish my study here then I would go back and be a “big time” director or whatever, you know, but life takes on different turns. Q: Did your mother encourage you to pursue this line of profession? Wong: No, not really. No. I think my mother was too busy to, you know, not that she didn’t take care of us. I think she tried very hard to take care of us. She worked very hard to support the family, and so a lot of decision was really left with us. I picked a school, I make my, whatever arrangement, you know. But she didn’t think that it was necessary for me to go away. She felt that there are always opportunities if I really work on it. You know, even back in Hong Kong, if I wanted to do something, if I really put my mind to it, I can still make it. But then, I have a different agenda. I think that learning something is one thing, but to travel to another part of the world and really experience it is another. And I think I made a very good choice. Q: How did you support yourself? I mean, three thousand is nothing in today’s world, but in 1971--- Wong: It was still quite a lot of money. I think in the first year, before I came, my uncle, my mother’s brother, actually, he kind of support me initially. And once I got here, I immediately took a job as a dishwasher at college, and then I think after six months or so, I took another job working at the library, in addition to being a dishwasher. Then at night, after being a dishwasher at the cafeteria at college, then at night I would take maybe two or three nights a week I would work at a local restaurant to be a dishwasher again. And then, in the summer, I work as a farmer. Then I like, working for Green Giants, Del Monte, you know, picking peas and things like that. Q: So ’71, as a Chinese---and you spoke English when you came to America? Wong: Yes, yes. Q: But Spokane, Washington, is not, is not a--- Wong: It’s quite a culture shock. Because that, you know, in movies or in magazine or newspaper, you always think of United States as New York City. So when you got off the plane, go to a place where, you know, you don’t see any sky scrappers and it’s flatland, it’s farming, so you know, it’s quite a culture shock. You know, you’re there, oh, this is the United States. You know, “am I in the wrong place?” I think, you know, Hong Kong is much more sophisticated, much more advanced than the United States. But that’s what I meant, you know. That you could learn only so much from textbooks, movies, or whatever. You have to visit the place and really experience it. Q: Did you have a hard time assimilating? Wong; No. Because I really like, even when I was kid before I came here, I liked Western music, Western movies, I had no problem assimilating, at all. But of course there are things I don’t know, like slang that people use, I wouldn’t---I cannot tell the difference. I wouldn’t know the meaning. But in generic terms, I don’t think I had a tough time fitting in. I fit in pretty well. Q: And you pursue a degree in what, now? Wong: In broadcasting. Radio and television. Q: For four years, after that, and you got your first job as what? Wong: No, actually, no. Four years I, I finished in three years. When I came I was already a second year student because the educational system is different, the British system and the American system is different. After high school, in Hong Kong, I went to two additional year as quote and unquote, like a, in Hong Kong that’s considered like pre-college classes. So when the student from Hong Kong come here, the American colleges already recognize that that’s equal to one year’s worth of credits, or whatever. So when I came, I was second year already, and I finish in three years, and then I want to go to graduate school and I was accepted by Kansas, Syracuse or New York City. My professor told me that if you are going to pursue a career in television, there are two places. Either you go to Los Angeles, or you go to New York, and I was already in West Coast for three years, so that’s why I came to the East Coast. And then I did two years in Brooklyn College. Right after I graduate, I got a job at WNBC. Q: As what? Wong: As an on-air promotion coordinator. Then, I moved pretty fast, actually. I spent less than two years, no, I spent a year there, and then I moved to another area called “sales traffic,” spent two years, I was made manager of the department. But that really is not the area that I want to pursue. Then, after two years there, I landed a job at the network, you know, to be a on-air operation manager, and that’s where I really get to see what television is all about. [cross talk] Q: It seems you were moving up the corporate side of television, not so much the creative side. Wong: Correct, yes. Q: But what happened to your dreams of becoming a director--- Wong: [laughs]. No, and again, you know, I guess it is fate. Then I got a call from a schoolmate, not a classmate, he was two year senior than I was in Brooklyn College. Asked me if I were interested in making a little money shooting commercial. I said, sure, why not. And so I, as a production assistant, we were doing commercial in Chinatown for the owner of Sino Television. At that time, he already put programming on Manhattan Cable, you know, that’s back in ’74, ’75, a couple of hours a night. So, and that’s how, I---the connection was made to my current employer. After that, then he started a television station, not a full-time, like, 12 hours a day. But it is on the ITFS system. It’s on microwave. But it was quite an elaborate set up. We have a studio in this building, on the first floor, and I got to do production, okay. But if I had to back track a little bit, while I was working at the corporate management side at NBC, because we were in management, and during strike or whatever, then we have to fill these jobs. If there were a neighbor’s strike, the tape operator is not working on a camera, people are not working, or if there’s a director’s strike, and then the management have to fill in the job. So I got my training, doing directing job, I got my training doing camera work, so, and I use those training and do it in Chinese language here. It seems that it worked out perfectly. I made my money during the day and then at night I got to produce news program in Chinese. I got to do some magazine type format shows, where we interview accomplish Chinese residents here in the city. So, I got a lot of job satisfaction out of that. That’s the creative side. But now it’s different. I’m in a very good position where I and the people that work with me, can work together, and we can design studios, design the equipment, pick out equipment that we want to use, and we also work together and try to see what kind of programs that we want to produce and serve the public better. So, it’s fun. It’s very hard work, it’s very difficult, but it’s fun. Q: I want to take you back a little bit again. Now, at what point did you decide, “I’m going to stay in America, I’m not going to go back to Hong Kong and work for TVB.” Wong: At which---[laughs]---Ah, I, you bring up a very good question. I---even though when I was working for Channel 4, I went back to Hong Kong from time to time. I had many, many talks with TVB, talking to different level. Never came to term. I just feel that it was too much to give up, and it’s too much a risk. Plus I was getting older, I have children here, where their welfare is my concern, and I’d like them to go to school here and all that. Q: ---in this profession. Do you think that you could climb as high in this country as, say, a foreigner in Hong Kong could? Wong: It depends on which area. There are accomplished, very accomplished Chinese broadcasters in this country. I mean, my boss, the owner of this company. This company ranked I think number 25 as a group owner in this country. For a Chinese, I think it’s well accomplished. There’s another fellow, John See, the head guy for Encore, plus there are some accomplished broadcasters in the writing field, for instance, scriptwriter, you know, that may be difficult. Director, we have accomplished Chinese director making to Hollywood now. It’s much, much, easier, nowadays, than when I was just graduating from college. In those days it may be difficult. Nowadays I think it’s much, much easier. Not that it is a piece a cake, I don’t think so. But certainly it is a lot easier. I think, well, if you talk about discriminations, there is always going to be, it just depend on how you’re going to take care of it. Q: At what point did you join Sino on a full-time basis? Wong: Well, actually, I joined Sino a little more than six years ago. Q: Oh, okay, so there was a lot of time between NBC and this--- Wong: Yeah, there were, there were, when I left NBC, then I, landed a job at a Hispanic, Spanish language educational station. It was a start up operation, and the, the guy sold me the job because he brought up two points, he said, “Well, you have managed in an English language environment, you have managed a Chinese stations, now it’s a Spanish language, it’s a good challenge for you.” And I think he was right. I don’t speak Spanish, but I did it for him. I helped him do the start up, and I worked there for a few years. Then, after that, I was involved in the radio business, you know, I team up with a partner and we build a radio station in New Jersey. That took me a couple of years. After we built it, we sold it, and that’s the time I start working for Sino TV. Q: And you came in as what, at the beginning, at Sino? Wong: At Sino? The general manager for the TV station. Because I work for them before as a part-time, you know, when I was working for NBC. They know I can deliver, they know my work style, they know how I work. Q: How is this station funded? Q: This is a privately owned--- Wong: It is a privately owned. We have no, we have no affiliation with any organization, any companies. It’s privately owned, and it’s strictly commercial broadcasting. There’s no political overtone, there’s no propaganda, it’s strictly broadcasting. And the owner is also an American-educated person. He graduated from Syracuse. Q: He is Chinese, yes? Wong: He is Chinese. You know, I think we more or less have the same dream, doing things that we want to do. Except that he is a business person. Q: And where is Sino seen? Wong: In the city. Q: In the Tri-State Area? Wong: Not in the Tri-State, in New York City, and also in part of New Jersey, well, yeah, part of New Jersey, like north Bergen County, along the Hudson River, and Staten Island, all the five boroughs of New York City, plus Mount Vernon and Westchester County. Q: So you’re not at all seen on the West Coast? Wong: Not yet, not yet. But we’re getting there. Very close, very close. I think we, if we can get our act together, I think we can be up and running in a month or two. Q: At the moment, it’s a 24-hour running channel? Wong: Yes. Yes. Q: And what kind of programs and languages do you broadcast in? Wong: Well, we have three channels. One analogue channel and two digital channels. One digital channel is for movies, 24 hours movie channel. And that movie channel has movies from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China. But in addition to that, I think we are the only movie channel airing Hollywood movies in Chinese language. I think we’re the only one in the country. Q: With subtitles, or voice over? Wong: Voice over. Dubbed in Chinese. And so, then the other channels, we have news, we have drama, we have public affair programs, education programs. These programs are from China, from Taiwan, and also from Hong Kong. Q: How much is produced here, in New York City? Wong: Here, in New York City, on a daily basis, we produce one hour Mandarin news, half hour Cantonese news. On a weekly basis, we have one financial program, taped at Wall Street, then another public affair program, it’s a talk show, interviewing accomplished Chinese in the community. Q: So all of the shows are in either Cantonese or Mandarin, is that right? Wong: Right. And some of the shows, they are in dual audio channel, SEP, meaning that the people at home, then can press the SEP button, they can either pick the Mandarin language or the Chinese dialect. Q: You said earlier that Sino TV doesn’t have any political agenda. From what I’ve seen in Chinatown, it seems almost impossible for any organization, any Chinese organization to not have a preference, meaning leaning toward either China or Taiwan, something, there are, like for example, are your broadcasters, your on-air people, are they mainly from China, are they from Taiwan, from Hong Kong, everywhere? Wong: Yeah, they’re everywhere. They’re everywhere. And I can, if you look at our program schedule, we have a number of hours of programming from CCTV, which is from China, we have a number of hours of programs from Taiwan. As a matter of fact, we have less programming from Hong Kong, and that’s not by design, that’s because of the financial burden. It’s more expensive to import programming from Hong Kong. We have a satellite dish here looking at CCTV on a 24-hour basis, any program that we want to use, we just pass it out. The same with the Taiwan. We want to have a philosophy that we are the liaison between the public and the world. The world means the mainstream society here. The world means Hong Kong and China, and Hong Kong, so that they can keep in touch with what’s happening in their homeland. You know, with a 24/7 type of operation, I think we have plenty of opportunity to present different views, you know, for people, I mean, they make their preference, and we just want to present it. Q: But there’s no regulation, or pressure of any kind [cross talk]--- Wong: No, no, no. As a matter of fact, we’re on cable. If it’s just a regular UHF or VHF, we need a license or something like that, but this is on a cable channel. The cable operators are not giving us any type of sponsor, censorship. But it’s just that our principal, we want to be able to not only to entertain, but to educate and inform the public. And I think it’s very, very important. You know, you mentioned in the community, there are people leaning left, right, and sometimes, when you have an agenda, you may not present a very balanced point of view, and we want to be in a position, or at least we try to be in a position that we can offer different viewpoints, so that people can make their educated decision. Q: Sino Television I know is not the only Chinese broadcaster in New York City. There is several dozen others. What differentiates you from the other broadcasters, and are you the leader? I mean, are you the biggest? Wong: Well, I think that’s up for other people to decide, but I think the difference is we are very independent, and local. There are other Chinese services, you are right, but they have affiliation with Hong Kong. Either their mother company is in Hong Kong, or in China. Then there are other services that are not full time. But we operate our channel, as I said, just like a commercial broadcasting station. It is strictly from the view point of what kind of programming we can provide to the public, in order to generate commercial advertising, in order to generate subscribers, because that’s where we get our funding, so we run things quite different from other Chinese television services. Q: Do you think part of your role is to be kind of a bridge between the Chinese community to the mainstream American community in any way? Wong: Personally, I hope so, and I think from the business point of view, we hope so. I think that is the key to the success. We serve a public, or a group of people that may have language problem, they may not be watching CNN, they may not be watching FOX News, and I think we would like to be in a position to bridge that gap, to make them aware of what’s happening in this country, what’s happening in New York City. And we also serve a group of people who watch, or who understand the language who may be watching CNN or may be watching MSNBC, but they want to find out what is happening in China, or Taiwan. They may read the New York Times about the Taiwan election but, to hear a different point of view from a news coming from Taiwan, I am sure it will present them with a different perspective. And I think in that sense, I really think that we serve as a liaison, or a bridge, not only to the public who have a language problem. We want to serve the entire Chinese public that, you know, to the mainstream society and also to their homeland. Q: So on the topic of language barrier, we know that a lot of people in Chinatown, because they don’t speak English, have a lot of problem assimilating to mainstream America. But even not mentioning those, we also know that in the last ten years, the Fujianese community has been the fastest growing. But yet, your station only, and all your programs, both television and radio, only broadcast in Cantonese and Mandarin. I don’t have the exact numbers, but what happened? Well, who is serving the Fujianese community? Where are they going to get their information, if they don’t speak English, they don’t speak Mandarin, they don’t speak Chinese, and I think a lot of them can’t even read, because they are from the rural areas. So where are they going to get information? Wong: Well, I don’t know your assertion is right. You bring out a very good point. We tried to, at one time, you know, having the same thought that you have, tried to find Fukinese radio personality to do, let’s say, a three hours program at night. And the response that I receive, that because the Fukianese, they speak Mandarin. They don’t necessarily have to be listening to Fukianese language. So I think, when you look at this, I think, down the road, I really don’t see that much a deal. I think it’s more and more geared toward Mandarin, rather than Toisanese, or Cantonese. Right now, yes, there’s still a sizable Cantonese-speaking group here, but I think eventually, I think it’s going to be mixed. Our Cantonese stations, there are a lot of Mandarin-speaking listeners. They call up, they ask, can we speak Mandarin, and we say, yes, by all means. And they’ll give their viewpoints in Mandarin, they will ask questions in Mandarin. Q: As you know, that’s not reality, because Chinatown is very much divided in that way. There really isn’t one language that really unites everybody. Wong: But isn’t that the problem, though? Q: That is the problem, and I have heard from different people in the Fujianese community that say that they are very isolated, because so much of Chinatown is not servicing them, you know, as a result they as a community need to build so many things for themselves, because there is not much for them in Chinatown, because of the language barrier. Wong: Well, I don’t know. I think we should look at it as the services for all Chinese rather than one special group. Q: Do you think Chinatown as a community is a united community, because we’re all Chinese? Wong: Well, as a whole, I would say, yes. As a whole, I would say that they are making progress. Look at Chinatown, after 911 the business may suffer a little bit, but as a whole, I think it is still very prosperous, certainly better than when I first came to New York, so you mentioned something that, there are groups that build up certain things to ascertain the need. Whether I agree with it or not, I think it is a positive thing. At least people are doing something .You know Chinese, they are very, traditionally they are very passive. And now, if they recognize a problem, they are doing something about it, I think it is pointing at the right direction. Q; So let’s talk about, you mentioned 911. You are located at 449 Broadway, which is just about a block from Chinatown and not so far from Ground Zero. How has that event impacted this business, or your role as a community broadcaster? Wong: Well, I have to say that I really, nobody would like to see another incident like 911. But that happening, ironically kind of put us on the map. We launched the radio station, the Chinese language station, I think a few months prior to 911, and when it happened, as you mentioned, because of the proximity, you know, we see what happened, and fortunately, our transmitter were not affected. We were on the air. We give out information, we tell people what happened, and we play a very, very, important role during that period of time, because, you know, at one time I think there wasn’t any, even newspaper. People don’t know what to do, so we have people practically calling up, you know, my son is in school, you think that he can come, what train will he be taking, and what can be done, what can I do? So, you asked earlier, whether I see that Chinatown is united. I think if it is not united, I think it certainly has made substantial improvements towards that direction. Not only do we play the direct role or the principal role in giving out information, but the people themselves, the public themselves, you know, when they hear questions, if we don’t know the answer, they will call up and give out the information. And I think in the old days you don’t see this type of thing happen. It wouldn’t. Q: You mean Chinese people participating in that way? Wong: Yeah, right, I mean, actively participating in the process. You know, for example, we announced on the air that if you have gloves, if you have water, the fire company they need this material, or police precinct, they need these items and all that. Then, they would go there and donate this material. And while we are still giving out these public service announcements, then an audience, a listener would call up and say, “Oh, I’ve just been to Fire Company XYZ, they don’t need gloves anymore, they got plenty of them. You should donate it to another company.” So they themselves really take part into the whole process, and they would not sit back and let other people do it. And I think for Chinese, I think that was really a giant step forward, ‘cause in the old days, you know, everybody just doing things for themselves, they don’t care what other peoples are doing. But in this instance, they really did a terrific job. Our radio personalities were on the air day and night, and we have Chinese restaurants they prepare their food and they brought it up for us. They also would ask us to help them to deliver food to the police, to the police precinct or the police headquarter, ‘cause they really wanted to help. And then they felt that they are part of the society. And that’s something that in my 30-some years here, I have never seen that until that time. I was really, really, very impressed. And yes, a lot of people give us credit for doing a fundraising, and raise so much money, but I think the credit should really be going back to the people in the community. I mean, they made a point that they wanted to demonstrate that they cared. ‘Cause a lot of people say, “Ah, the Chinese, they come here, they make the money, they go home and retire,” and all that. But they made it a point to show that they care, they are part of the society and they want to be very united, and they want to tell the mainstream that they are united. And I think that that is a very strong message. Q: There’s something else that you’re talking about, donations and money. I think you’re being modest. Your station actually collected over a million dollars, which is something that--- Wong: Yeah, 1.45 million--- Q: Which is completely unprecedented in this community--- Wong: Absolutely--- Q: How did that happen? Who initiated this, how did that happen? Wong: Well, my boss always gave me credit, that I initiated it. No, it’s not. I think the ones that, who initiated it was really the people in the community, and they call us up, you know, a lot of people call up the station and say, you know, we want to do something, I want to write a check, I want to donate money, where do I send this check, and we always educated them. You know, “You just write, Red Cross.” But for some people, even writing “Red Cross” would be a problem. They don’t know how to spell “Red.” You ask them to write a whole address, it would be very, very difficult. And then they said, “Can we just bring the check to the station, and you write it for us.” Q: Bring you cash, and then they--- Wong: No. They said, “Well, I don’t know how to write, can I bring the check to your station, you write it for us?” Yes, for one or two, yes, it’s okay, but, you know, and then we get a lot of requests. Then somebody would say, “Can we just give you the money? You write it, you send it. We trust you. You do it.” So, we did fundraising before. Our company did some fundraising before in the community, and it had been successful as well, but we hate to do that, because no matter how you do it, people always suspect that you take portion of the money, you know--- Q: There’s corruption involved somewhere--- Wong: Yeah, into your own pocket or whatever. That’s why we really didn’t want to do it. But the request was really, really, overwhelming. And then, I convinced my boss that, you know, we really have to do something, because if there were five phone calls, four would be asking us to do this type of thing. So then we say, “Okay, we’ll do it, you can send cash, or you can walk to the station, we’ll give you a receipt right away, we are not going to take your money.” And when we first started we thought that hey, the most maybe fifty-thousand, a hundred thousand. I think the first couple of days we already reached over a hundred, like two hundred thousand, something like that. And the momentum just kept on going. It just kept on going. And then, when it gets to a million, then people will call up and give us credit and say, “Oh, your station is doing great, we really support your station, without your station we don’t know what we would have done, you know, how we could have functioned, let’s do it for, let’s do it and reach the number to 1430. At that time our call letter, you know, our frequency was 1430. And, so, they did it. They just keep on writing check and keep on coming, and we really-- -at 1430 we stop, we say that, no more, we’re finished, we’ll take this money and we’ll donate it to the World Trade Center Fund and also to the Red Cross. But there was some money that was already in the mail. That’s why it was 1.45 million dollars. [laughs]. But that is, you were talking about unity. I think that really demonstrates that if the Chinese want to show their unity they could do it. They really could do it. A lot of people give us credit for it, we receive a lot of awards for it, but I really, each time if I have to give a thank you speech, I really think that the credit really should be the people in the community, cause they never did anything like before. Never. Q: But, this outpour of generosity, which is surprising, as you said for Chinese people, because a lot of times they just look after themselves--- Wong: Right, exactly. Q: But do you think, in part, that’s because the location of Chinatown was so near Ground Zero that in same way Chinatown was kind of attacked, the effects of it. If this had happened, say in Harlem, do you think the Chinese community would have reacted the way they did? Wong: Well, it was a tragedy. And I think the magnitude of the incident was so great that yes they would have done it. To this extreme, I think you have a point, because of the proximity, they would feel more, the impact, they would feel a lot more, because they’re here, they see it, they smell it. I mean, you, I don’t know where you were, for a month we were here. It was horrible smell, horrible. Q: Let’s stop there and we have to change tapes. Wong: Okay. Q: So you were talking about this, sort of surprising unity the Chinese people show in the aftermath of September 11th. So as a broadcaster, I mean, obviously you saw that people truly trusted you and looked towards you as a reliable source of information, because every station, every network, everybody was showing the same event, and this many people tune into you. What do you think, you know, why are you in that position, where people came to you, when they didn’t go to another one of the Chinese stations and donated this much money? Wong: Well, I could think of a couple of reasons. I think number one is that we have been in the community for more than twenty-six years, so I think we have the grassroots Chinese public support. I think that’s number one. I think number two is really the power of the medium that you can reach out to so many people, and whatever you say is immediate. And during that time, where they cannot understand the mainstream reports, there were no newspaper, ah, transportation, if they live in Queens they cannot come out, if they live in Brooklyn they cannot come out. Even if they live in Chinatown, they may have difficulty getting through different streets, and we more or less became their friend. And when you can provide information, when you become their companion day and night, then that certainly build up that trust. And when they come here, they see that it’s a legitimate operation, you know, and it’s the word of mouth. And that’s how we build the trust. And I think building the trust is through the way we present ourselves. With our programming, with our coverage, we did, I think we did a very, very good job. It was day and night. Even our DJ, they knew it, ‘cause they heard the same voice. It was almost 24 hours without interruption. And that was something that they never had experience with. Because in the past, you may listen to a program, and you turn it off, or another DJ come on, but this, on the 24-hour basis, it’s the same group of DJs that going to be there. And some of our DJs are touched, you know, even cry on the air, and we also interview people, family of the victims, they were here, we interviewed them. It make such a strong impact to the listeners. So, that’s why we earned their trust. Q: You think Chinatown was under-covered in the mainstream media, given how close it is to Ground Zero, and as a community where there’s actually a lot of residents--- Wong: Oh, yeah, absolutely, in my opinion, yes. No---we raised 1.45 million, right? Yes, we got a lot of coverage, but I can even quote you an example. I don’t have it now, but I think on a daily basis, during that time, during that period of time, if somebody gave us sixty thousand dollars charity they may have their photos and a big space on the newspaper. But we got our space, but not as prominent as, you know, other groups. Q: Do you think that’s because the Asian community doesn’t have a leader? Chinatown doesn’t really have a distinct leader to represent the community in incidences like this, to stand out, and---- Wong: [laughs] Well, I think historically, as a group, we have never been very vocal. As a group, we have not been very---I’m not talking about leader or no leader, but as a group, we have not been very vocal. We did not, we were not very active in participating in the political process. Q: So you said that 9/11 has put your organization on the map in some way, and I know that you presented Mayor Giuliani with the check --- Wong: Right. Q: --- at City Hall, so with all that exposure, what has that meant? How has that resulted in anything, a change in programming, or the way you see your responsibility in the community? Has it resulted in any change, this event? Wong: Well, I think, as I said, it put us on the map. I think it makes us, selling our commercial time easier, in the community. But it just reinforce the fact that we have to ascertain the community needs in our programming, and I think that’s very important. I always advocate for providing a forum for the public to voice their each opinion, to discuss issues, on our radio, and I think we did a very good job on that. Q: So if the Chinese community could come together during this 911 tragedy, you know, two years, more than two years have passed now, do you think that brief unity has resulted in positive changes in Chinatown? Do you think people, different groups talk to each other more, or there is more work towards rebuilding Chinatown together? Or everybody went back, to their own separate places after this event? Wong: Well, I never, I never pay attention to what different groups are doing, so I really cannot answer that question, but I think it does show that the incident, or that time demonstrate that Chinese as a group, if they want to do something, they can unite and do something and achieve whatever goal they set out to do. Now, whether leadership, whether there’s a group that want to lead or has demonstrated that they want to lead, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t pay attention to local politics that much, but I am just very proud of the fact---and it changed my perspective. It really has changed my perspective. I’ve been here for so long now, and that really has demonstrated that---you know, I never thought that Chinese would pay that much attention to what’s around them. Chinese always, you know, they make sure that their children get good education, they make sure that they have enough money in the bank to put food on table and pay rent and all that. But I think now, they have become more aware of events that happen around them. And I think that’s very positive. Q: So does your station do, have you done more public announcement, or increased programs to educate the Chinese community? Wong: Yes, we are. As a matter of fact, earlier I mentioned about political process. I think voter registration. A lot of people, they don’t understand the power of having the right to vote. So we want to encourage people to register. I think several weeks ago we had an event here---we have a magazine we publish, a weekly magazine. It’s a very popular magazine. And each Saturday there are people coming to pick up the magazine. And one Saturday we started the voter registration. And on one, on a three hours period, we registered close to two hundred people. Now, two hundred people may sound a very small number, but when you figure in that most of the people, I shouldn’t say most---some of the people, they may not be resident. Some of the people may not even, you know, have legal status. Okay, so when you can sign up two hundred people that have the qualifications to vote, that’s a huge number in a three hours period. And we intend to do more, between now and the election. And I think that really would bring the awareness to people, that if they want to do something, if they want to get the kind of benefits that they want, or that will affect their children or whatever, voting is a very powerful tool. And we hope that we can achieve that. Q: So as a whole station, where are you leading your team for the future? What more can Sino Television do? Wong: If---[laughs]---I tell you, if I can achieve, by providing entertainment, and educating the public, and become a bridge between the Chinese community and the mainstream community, I think I have achieved it, and I have done a very good job. And that is a constant process. I mean, you cannot stop. Entertainment, yes, you can upgrade a program, you can import whatever program. But to really ascertain the community needs, you have to really pick out special issues, social issues, focus on current events, government program, they may make an impact to the Chinese-American way of life. I think it’s very important for us to really, on one hand, bring awareness to the Chinese public, and on the other, to provide a forum for them to air their opinion. It’s almost an outlet to them. Q: For their life in America. Wong: Right. For example, we had our grand opening of our television facility here two weeks ago, and the Manhattan borough president came and do the ribbon cutting. And subsequent to that I wrote her a letter and thank her for her participation. At the same time I asked to do a weekly program with her, or even a monthly program, as the borough president. That is what I meant, a liaison, between the community here--- Q: You’re trying to get Chinese more involved. Wong: More involved, and they’re, I think little things, you know, sometimes they may feel, like you say, they may, certain group may feel isolated. I think as a group Chinese sometimes they may feel that they are isolated. They may not know how come, you know, I park this car here, how come I got a ticket. They may have that. How come I have to pay for the, the getting rid of the tree in front of my house. But if you put a public official, and answer the question, these type of question, they, it bring it closer to the mainstream society. They feel that, ah, they pay attention to us. And that’s the kind of role that we want to provide. Q: And is there any goal to take your station nationally, so that it can be seen all over America? Wong: We hope so, but that is a business decision. I think the success of a station, like I said earlier, is really based on local presence, and doing nationally, I think from the entertainment point of view, it may be good, but in terms of different communities, you still have to have local presence there. And that will be a challenge when we go national. Q: And do you plan to stick around for this challenge? You’re going to stay with this company? Wong: [laughs]. I don’t know. I think it’s fun. But I think there are a lot of people who work here, they know my philosophy. And we are working towards that goal, whether I’m here or not, whether I manage it or not, it doesn’t really matter. Q: That’s a good sign. A sign of a good manager. If you leave, everything still works. Right? Wong: Well, thank you. It’s very important. Otherwise, I think the power of the media will get lost. I think doing business, making good business is one thing I think is important, but ascertaining the community needs is also very important, so---you are in media, so you don’t need me to tell you that. Q: So looking back, you’re happy with the choices you made? You’re okay that you didn’t become Ang Lee? Wong: [laughs] Um--- Q: No regrets? Wong: No, I don’t have any regret. I’ve been very lucky. I mean, who would have thought that a boy growing up in a poor environment can be where I am? Not that I’m very accomplished, but doing something meaningful. And I think that’s very important. Am I happy? Yeah. Overall I’m happy. We should always aim high. Q: Well, you’re still young. There’s still time. Wong: [laughs] The camera lies, okay? It’s right here. Q: Well, I think you’re probably surprised that you have shared this much with us that you didn’t anticipate to, so--- [laughter] Wong: Yeah, it’s my whole life history. Q: But since the camera is still rolling, is there anything else that you want to say, or tell the public, that I haven’t asked you? Wong: Um, I, no, I think you asked me just about everything. Q: Okay, well, in that case, then, thank you Tony, very much for your time--- Wong: My pleasure, my pleasure. Q: And my name is Lan Trinh. [END OF INTERVIEW] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕今天是2004年4月1日。我現在在Tony Wong百老彙中國電視臺辦公室。Tony，我們先談一下現在。請跟我們講一下中國電視臺以及你在這裏做什麽。 王：中國電視臺開播已有六年了。實際上，我們開始是在皇后區的法拉盛。我們開始只有一個頻道，78台。這是每周七天每天24小時用中文播放的電視臺。兩年之後，Time Warner有了數碼式工作平臺，我們又增加了兩個數碼頻道。現在，我們搬到曼哈頓辦公，因爲我們在那兒有一個廣播電臺，也是用中文廣播的。 我們考慮到把這兩個電臺放在一起會使我們更加充分地利用我們的資源，同時也會使我們能夠更好地爲華人社區服務。 問：好的，我們將用更多的時間談你的工作和中國電視臺在華人社區所起的作用。但首先，我們想瞭解一下你本人的情況。你是否一直對媒體很感興趣？你的背景如何？ 王：是的，我一直對媒體很感興趣。首先，我在香港出生長大。我來這裏學習廣播。我在西海岸的Eastern Washington State University獲得學士學位，然後又來這裏讀研究生。在畢業之後，我非常非常幸運在WNBC，4台，找到一份工作。我在NBC做了很多年。除了廣播以外，我從來沒有從事過任何其他職業。不是在電視臺做就是在廣播電臺做，或做媒體廣告。 問：你是哪一年來美國的？ 王：我想是1971年9月1日來這裏的。 問：哇。那是很久之前了。[笑] 你在美國有沒有親戚？ 王：沒有。實際上，我去了一個非常小的城鎮，Spokane，Washington。我一個人也不認識。但我非常非常幸運。學校裏有一個我不認識的教授，他們一家人對我非常好，讓我和他們住在一起。所以我剛一來美國就和他們住在一起。他就是做這一行的。他是教新聞學的教授，同時在當地的一家電視臺做主持。所以，可以說，從個人方面和專業方面來講，我在美國一直是在跟媒體打交道。 問：你的家人是一直在香港，還是從中國或其他地方到香港去的？ 王：我的家人一直都在香港。甚至我的父母，他們，據我所知，他們說他們是在香港出生的。 問：你沒有英國公民身份嗎？ 王：那個時候，我有一本英國護照。但那是否算是英國公民身份，我不清楚。在這裏結婚後不久，我和太太去倫敦旅遊，我當時還有英國護照，但我仍然要申請簽證去倫敦。所以，我想那不應該算是英國公民身份。 問：你當時沒有考慮去英國而不是美國讀書嗎？ 王：並不是說我不想，我想那個時候人們都認爲去英國讀書太貴了。我是在一個非常貧窮的家庭長大的。 我能來這裏已經是一個奇迹了。我找到了一家當時只收外州學生三千美元的大學，全包，食宿和學費。所以，這是當時條件的限制，而並非我的選擇。如果你問我想去哪里，我想那個時候我會說倫敦，因爲我覺得英國的學位要比美國的學位值錢。 問：你父母在香港是做什麽的？ 王：我母親---，我父親在我八歲的時候去世了。我母親有四個孩子。我母親開一家蔬菜店，一個小店鋪。我基本上是在街上長大的。 問：是勞動階層。 王：沒錯，的確是。 問：在你決定來美國的時候，你是否打算從事媒體這一行？ 王：是的，絕對是的。首先，我總是[咳嗽]---，甚至在我小的時候，我總是夢想出國。我想做媒體這一行是因爲那個時候我想成爲一個攝影家，覺得也許那樣我能到世界各個地方旅行，或者拍相片，或者拍電影，但我從來沒有機會實現。但我還是做了與拍攝類似的事情。 問：但是70年代的香港，就電視臺來講，僅僅有幾家--- 王：只有一家，TVB。 問：---TVB。是不是像--- 王：那個時候我想還沒有TVB--- 問：還沒有ATV嗎？ 王：沒有，還沒有ATV。我想只有TVB。像其他小孩子一樣，我想在這裏完成學業後回去做個“出名的”導演或什麽的，但生活總是不盡人意。 問：你的母親有沒有鼓勵你從事這一行？ 王：沒有。我想我母親實在是太忙了，並不是說她不照料我們。我認爲她十分盡力地照料我們。爲了支撐這個家庭，她非常努力地工作，所以很多事情必須由我們自己來決定。我自己選的學校，我自己安排了所有的事情。但她認爲我沒有必要離開香港。她認爲只要我努力，機會總會有的。即使在香港，如果我想要做一些事情，只要努力，我也能做到。 但那時，我有其他的想法。我想學東西是一回事情，但到世界的其他地方旅行和體驗是另外一回事情。我想我做了一個非常好的選擇。 問：你是怎樣資助你的生活的？在今天三千美金不算什麽，但在1971年--- 王：那仍然是很大一筆錢。我想在我來的第一年---，實際上，在我來之前，我叔叔，我母親的兄弟在開始的時候也有資助我。來這裏之後，我立即在學校找了一份刷盤子的工作，然後差不多在六個月之後，除了刷盤子以外，我在圖書館找了另外一份工。 在學校的食堂刷完盤子之後，我晚上又去附近的一家餐館刷盤子，大概每個星期做兩、三個晚上。 後來，在夏天，我又去做農活。我去Green Giant、Del Monte摘豌豆等。 問：71年，作爲一個華人---你來美國的時候是否講英文？ 王：是的。 問：但Spokane，Washington不是一個--- 王：這是一個很大的文化衝擊。因爲在電影、雜誌或報紙上，你總是把美國想象成爲紐約。因此，當你下了飛機，到了一個看不到高樓大廈平坦的地方，到處都是莊稼，這是很大的文化衝擊。你到了這裏，這就是美國。我在想，“我是不是來錯了地方？”香港都要比美國現代、先進得多。這就是我當時的想法。你只能從教科書、電影上瞭解這麽多。你必須要到那個地方去親身體驗。 問：你當時覺得很難適應嗎？ 王：沒有。因爲我非常喜歡---，甚至在我來這裏之前，小的時候，我就喜歡西方音樂，西方電影，我根本就沒有覺得不適應。但當然也有我不知道的事情，比如人們講的俚語，我不會---，我聽不出來，我不懂。但是，總的來說，我想我還是比較適應這裏的。我適應得還不錯。 問：你學的是什麽專業？ 王：廣播學，電臺和電視。 問：學了四年之後，你的第一份工是做什麽的？ 王：沒有，不是四年。實際上，我用三年就修完了。在我來的時候，我已經是二年級的學生了，因爲教育系統是不一樣的，英國和美國的教育系統是不同的。在香港上完高中之後，我又在香港上了兩年的所謂的預科班。因此香港的學生來到這裏時，美國學校都承認相當於一年的學分。 因此當我來的時候，我已經是第二年了。我用了三年完成了學業，然後我想上研究生院。我被堪薩斯，Syracuse和紐約市錄取了。我的教授跟我說，你如果要搞電視這行，只有兩個地方，或者你去洛杉磯，或者你去紐約。我已經在西海岸待了三年了，於是我就來到東海岸。我在布魯克林學院上了兩年。在我畢業的時候，我在WNBC找到一份工作。 問：做什麽？ 王：廣播促進協調員。後來，實際上，我晉升得比較快。我做了不到兩年，沒有，我在那兒待了一年，然後我調到另一個部門，叫“銷售交通”，在那兒待了兩年，他們讓我做那個部門的經理。但那實在不是我感興趣的領域。 在那兒做了兩年之後，我在電臺找到一份工作，做廣播運作經理，我在那裏得以見識到電視臺是怎樣一回事。 [同時講話] 問：聽起來你一直在電視臺的行政方面任職，而不是做具有創造性的一面。 王：是的。 問：你不是一直夢想做導演嗎？ 王：[笑]。沒有，還是那句話，我想這是命運。我有一次接到一個校友的電話，不是同班同學，在布魯克林學院他比我早兩年。他問我是否想拍廣告賺一些外快。我說，沒有問題。就這樣，作爲製片助手，我們在唐人街爲中國電視臺的老闆拍了一個廣告。在當時，他已經在曼哈頓的電臺有節目，那還是在74、75年，每天晚上只有幾個小時。我就是這樣---，和我現在的老闆認識的。 在那之後，他辦了一個電視臺，不是全天的，每天只有12個小時，但是在ITFS系統上。是用微波傳送，但設備比較精致。我們在這個樓裏有一個工作室，在一樓，我負責制作。但如果回想起來，我在NBC負責公司管理的時候，因爲我們負責管理，在罷工和發生其他事件的時候，我們就不得不填補這些工作。如果其他公司的工人罷工，攝像機的磁帶操作員不工作，大家都不工作，或者如果導演也罷工，負責管理的就不得不去頂替。我受過訓練，做過導演的工作，我也做過攝影的工作，現在，我利用我的培訓在這裏做中文節目。看上去還比較不錯。我白天賺錢，晚上又製作中文新聞節目。我還做一些雜誌類型的節目，主要是採訪市里一些華裔成功人士。 因此，我從這些工作中獲得很大的成就感。那是具有創造性的一面。但現在又不同了。我和爲我工作的人能夠很好地合作，我們能設計工作室，設計設備，選擇我們想要使用的設備。 而且我們能夠在一起工作，探索我們想要製作的節目來更好地爲公衆服務。 總的來講，工作是很辛苦，但是很有趣。 問：我想再談一談過去。你是在什麽時候決定，“我要待在美國，我不想回香港在TVB工作”。 王：在什麽---[笑]---啊，我，你問了一個非常好的問題。我---，即使我在4台工作的時候，我也時常回香港。我和TVB有很多很多接觸，和不同級別的人都有談過。但從未達成協定。 我只是覺得放棄了的話太可惜了，而且是很大的風險。加上我的年紀已大，我在這裏有孩子，我必須要讓他們的生活有保障，我想讓他們在這裏上學和發展。 問：---在這個職業中的。你認爲你在這裏是否能象一個在香港的外國人成功？ 王：這取決於是在哪個領域。這裏有非常成功的華裔廣播員。我是說，我的老闆，他擁有這個公司。我想作爲集團總裁這個公司在美國排行第25。我覺得對於中國人來講這已經是非常成功了。還有另外一個人，John See，Encore的首要人物，加上那些在寫作領域出名的廣播員，例如撰稿人，那都是相當不容易的。導演，我們有很出名的華裔導演製作好萊塢影片。 現在比我剛剛從學校畢業時要容易得多。在那個時候是很困難的。我覺得現在容易得多。我倒不是說非常容易。但至少容易得多。 如果你講歧視，這永遠會有的，只是看你怎樣去看待。 問：你是什麽時候在中視任職的？ 王：實際上，我是在六年前加入中視的。 問：那你在NBC和--- 王：是的。在我離開NBC的時候，我在一家西班牙語教育電臺找到一份工作。那是一家新開播的電臺，他們把我招過去是有兩個原因，他說，“你已經管理過一家英文電臺，你也管理過中文電臺，現在是西班牙語，對你是一個很好的挑戰”。我想他是正確的。我不講西班牙文，但我還是去做了。我幫他把公司建立了起來，後來又在那裏做了幾年。 在那之後，我又搞了廣播電臺。我和另外一個合夥人在新澤西辦了一家廣播電臺。我又在那裏做了幾年。電臺建立之後，我們又把它賣了，在那個時候我開始在中視工作。 問：你剛開始在中視任什麽職務？ 王：在中視？電視臺的總經理。因爲我之前在NBC工作的時候在那裏做兼職。他們知道我能做事情，他們知道我的工作風格，他們知道我的工作能力。 問：這家電臺的經費是從哪里來的？ 問：這是一家私有的--- 王：它是私有的。我們和其他組織和公司沒有隸屬聯繫。是私有的，是完全商業的廣播。沒有政治傾向，沒有宣傳，只是廣播。老闆也是在美國上過學的。他是從Syracuse畢業的。 問：他也是華人？ 王：是的。我想我們或多或少都有同樣的夢想，做我們想要做的事情，只不過他是一個生意人。 問：中視在哪里廣播？ 王：在市里。 問：在Tri-State地區？ 王：沒有在Tri-State，在紐約市，和新澤西的一部分。比如在Bergen縣北部，Hudson River沿岸，和史丹頓島，紐約市的五個區，加上Mount Vernon和Westchester縣。 問：在西海岸看不到你的節目？ 王：暫時沒有。但我們正在努力，差不多快搞好了。如果能好好規劃的話，我想我們能在一兩個月內開播。 問：現在是24小時播放的頻道？ 王：是的。 問：是什麽樣的節目？你們用什麽語言廣播？ 王：我們有三個頻道。一個是類比頻道，兩個是數碼頻道。一個數碼頻道播放電影，24小時電影頻道。那個電影頻道播放香港，臺灣，和中國的電影。除此之外，我想我們是唯一用中文播放好萊塢電影的電影頻道。我想我們是國內唯一一家。 問：是字幕還是配音？ 王：配音。用中文配音。其他幾個頻道，我們有新聞，我們有戲劇，我們有公衆事務的節目，教育節目。這些節目來自中國，臺灣，和香港。 問：有多少是在這裏，紐約市，製作的？ 王：在紐約市的每天都有。我們製作一小時的國語新聞，半小時廣州話新聞。每星期有金融節目，在華爾街拍攝。還有另外一個公衆事務的節目，是談話節目，採訪社區裏成功的華人。 問：這些是廣州話或者國語的節目嗎？ 王：是的。有些節目是雙語頻道，SEP，就是說在家觀看的觀衆可以按SEP鍵，選擇國語或其他方言。 問：你早些時候談到中視沒有任何政治傾向。從我在唐人街的觀察，似乎任何組織，任何華人組織沒有傾向是幾乎不可能的，或者傾向中國或者傾向臺灣。比如，你們的播音員主要是從中國來的，還是從臺灣，從香港，或其他地方？ 王：哪里來的都有。如果你看我們的節目預告，我們有幾個小時CCTV的節目，這是中國的。我們有幾個小時臺灣的節目。實際上，我們較少播香港的節目。並不是我們有意的，而是因爲費用問題。從香港進口節目要貴一些。我們這裏衛星天線24小時監視CCTV，如果我們想要使用任何節目，我們就把它傳送過來。臺灣也是同樣。 我們想有一種理念，即我們是公衆和世界之間的聯絡站。世界是指這裏的主流社會。世界是指香港，中國，和臺灣。這樣他們能夠瞭解他們老家發生的事情。 通過24/7的操作，我想我們有大量的機會展示不同的觀點。對於公衆來講，這會影響他們的意見，我們就是要展示出來。 問：但沒有任何規定或者任何壓力[同時講話]--- 王：沒有。實際上，我們是閉路電視。如果只是一般的UHF或VHF，我們需要執照或類似的東西，但這是閉路電視頻道。電臺操作員沒有給我們任何資助或監控。一切都是我們說了算，我們不但要娛樂，而且還要教育公衆和提供資訊。我認爲這是非常非常重要的。你提到社區裏有的人傾向左，有的人傾向右。有時你有一個議程，卻不能提出一個很中立的觀點。我們試圖至少站在能夠提供不同的觀點的立場上，這樣人們才能做出明智的選擇。 問：據我所知，中視不是紐約市唯一的中文廣播電臺。還有很多其他的。你們與其他電臺有什麽區別，你們是不是領頭人？你們是不是最大的？ 王：我認爲這應該由其他人來決定，但我認爲區別在於我們是很獨立的，也是本地的。你說得不錯，有其他一些中文電臺，但他們是香港的機構。他們的母公司或者在香港，或者在中國。還有一些電臺不是全天廣播。但我們經營自己的電臺，就像一個商業廣播電臺一樣。是完全按照我們能向公衆提供什麽類型的節目來獲取商業廣告，贏得用戶，因爲我們只有這樣才能獲得資助，所以我們同其他中文電視臺的運作有很大不同。 問：你是否認爲你們一部分的職責是作爲華人社區和美國主流社會的橋梁？ 王：我本人希望如此，從商業角度來看，我們也希望如此。我想這是成功的關鍵。我們服務的公衆或觀衆可能有語言障礙，他們可能看不懂CNN，他們可能看不懂FOX新聞，我想我們願意充當橋梁來填補空缺，讓他們知道這個國家發生了什麽事情，紐約市發生了什麽事情。 我們也爲一些看，或懂英文看得懂CNN或MSNBC，但想知道中國或臺灣新聞的觀衆服務。他們也許會看紐約時報瞭解臺灣選舉，但來自臺灣的新聞會提供給他們一些不同的觀點。 從這個角度來看，我的確認爲我們充當了聯絡或者橋梁的角色，不單單是服務有語言障礙的公衆。我們想爲整個的華人公衆服務，面向主流社會以及他們的家鄉。 問：關於語言障礙，我們知道唐人街的很多人，因爲不講英語，很難融入美國主流社會。 即使不談這些，在近十年福州社區增長最快。但你們電臺和你們的節目，包括電視和無線廣播，都使用廣州話和國語。我沒有確切的數位，但情況如何？誰在爲福州社區服務？如果他們不講英語，不講國語和廣州話，他們要從哪里獲得新聞？我想他們很多人都不識字，因爲他們是從農村來的。那他們是從哪里獲得資訊的？ 王：我不知道你的資訊是否準確。你提出一個很好的問題。我們曾一度有和你一樣的想法，試圖找講福州話的廣播員製作，比如每晚三個小時的節目。但我收到的答復是福州人也講國語。他們不一定非要聽福州話。所以我認爲，今後這不會是個太大的問題。我想，其他方言會越來越多被國語取代，而非臺山話，或廣州話。現今這裏的確有相當多廣東人，但最終將會融合。 我們廣州話電臺有很多講國語的聽衆。他們打電話問，我們能不能講國語，我們說沒有問題。然後他們會用國語講他們的觀點，用國語提問題。 問：你也許知道，那不是現實，因爲唐人街非常多元化。沒有一種大家都能溝通的語言。 王：你覺得是這個問題嗎？ 問：是的。福州社區的一些人跟我講，他們十分孤立，因爲唐人街很多服務不是面向他們的。於是他們作爲一個社區要爲自己做很多事情， 因爲唐人街沒有面向他們的服務，因爲語言問題。 王：這個我不清楚。我想我們的服務應該面向所有華人，而不是某一個特定的群體。 問：你是否認爲因爲我們都是華人，唐人街是一個團結的社區嗎？ 王：作爲整體來講，我認爲是的。總的看來是有進步。在9/11之後，唐人街的生意受到一定影響，但總的來講，仍是很繁榮，肯定要比我剛來紐約的時候好，也就是你剛才所講，一些人創建了很多他們需要的東西。 無論我是否贊同，我覺得這是一件好的事情。至少有人在做事情。傳統上，人們認爲中國人非常被動。現在，他們一旦意識到一個問題，就會做些事情，我想這是朝好的方向發展。 問：讓我們談論一下你提到的9/11。你在百老彙449號，離唐人街只有一條街，離Ground Zero也不遠。作爲一個社區廣播員，你認爲那個事件對這個行業有什麽衝擊？ 王：我的確認爲沒有任何人願意看到9/11類似的事件再次發生。但諷刺的是，它的發生使我們更加有影響力。我們是在9/11之前的幾個月開通了無線廣播，中文電臺。在事件發生的時候，正如你所講，由於距離比較近，我們看到發生的一切，而幸運地的是，我們的傳輸器沒有受到影響。我們在廣播。我們播出了新聞，我們告訴人們發生了什麽事情，我們在那段期間充當了非常重要的角色，因爲在那時曾一度連報紙都沒有。 人們都不知道要做什麽，我們把人們調集起來，我的兒子在學校，你認爲他能來，他要坐什麽車，要做些什麽，我能做些什麽？ 你早些時候問我是否覺得唐人街很團結。即使不團結，我想也在那個方面有了很大的改進。我們不僅在傳播資訊上起了直接和主要的作用，而且當他們聽到詢問之後，如果我們不知道，人們自己，公衆自己，也會主動打電話提供資訊。我想過去沒有發生過這種事情。 問：你是說華人以那種方式來參與？ 王：是的，積極地參與這個過程。比如，我們廣播說，如果你有手套，如果你有水，消防公司或警察局需要這些，等等。然後，他們會去那裏捐獻這些東西。在我們還在廣播這些公衆事務的時候，一位元聽衆打來電話說，“我剛剛去了消防公司XYZ，他們不再需要手套，他們已經有足夠的了。你應該捐獻給另外一個公司”。所以，他們自己的確非常投入全部的過程，而不是坐在那裏讓別人做這些事情。我覺得對於中國人來講這確實是一個非常巨大的進步，因爲在過去，大家都在忙自己的事情，而不去關心別人的事情。 但在這種情況下，他們的確做得非常出色。我們的無線電播音員日夜廣播，有些中餐館做了吃的送給我們。他們也有要求我們幫他們把食物送給警察，警察局或警察局總部，因爲他們確實想要幫忙。他們感到他們是社會的一部分。我在來這裏的30多年來第一次看到這種情景。我確實非常感動。 很多人們感激我們舉行募捐，而且籌集了很多錢，但我想還是要感謝社區的民衆。 他們展示出來他們的確很關心，因爲很多人說，“啊，中國人來到這裏，賺了錢後就回家退休”，等等。但他們展現出來他們的確關心，他們是社會的一部分，他們希望能夠團結起來，他們想要告訴主流社會他們是團結的。我認爲那是一個非常強有力的資訊。 問：你還有談到捐款和錢。我想你是謙虛。你的電臺募捐到一百多萬美元，實在是--- 王：是的，一百四十五萬--- 問：在這個社區是完全空前的--- 王：絕對地--- 問：那是怎麽會事？是誰發起的？ 王：我的老闆總是表揚我，說是我發起的。不，不是的。我想是社區的民衆發起的。他們打電話給我們。很多人打電話給電臺說，我們想要做些事情，我想開支票，我想捐錢，我要把支票寄到哪里。我們也總給他們提供資訊，“你只要寫‘紅十字會’”。但一些人連寫“紅十字會”都是個問題。他們不知道怎麽拼寫“紅”。你讓他們寫一個完整的地址都非常困難。然後他們就說，“我們能不能把支票送到電臺，你替我們寫”。 問：帶錢來，然後他們--- 王：不是。他們說，“我不知道怎麽寫，我能不能把支票送到電臺，你替我們寫？”如果只是一、兩個，沒有問題，但後來我們收到很多請求。當時，有人提議，“我們能不能把錢給你們？你們來寫，你們來寄。我們信任你們。你們來做”。 我們以前做過募捐。我們公司之前在社區裏做過一些募捐，而且也很成功，但我們不喜歡做，因爲無論你怎樣做，別人都會懷疑你拿了一部分錢--- 問：有一些腐敗--- 王：是的，裝進你自己的腰包什麽的。因此我們確實不想做。但這種要求非常非常強烈。於是，我說服了我的老闆，我們必須要做些事情，因爲如果有五個電話，四個是要求我們做這個的。當時我們說，“好吧，我們會做，你可以給現金，或者送到電臺，我們會立即給你一張收據，我們不會拿你的錢”。當我們開始的時候，我們想頂多會有五萬、十萬。頭幾天我們超過十萬了，好像是二十萬。然後勁頭越來越足。不斷地有人捐款。當到了一百萬時，很多人打電話稱讚我們說，“啊，你的電臺很好，我們非常支援你的電臺。沒有你們電臺我們不會知道我們做了些什麽，我們發揮了什麽作用，讓我們繼續做，湊到1430。”那個時候我們電臺的頻率是1430。 就這樣，他們做到了。他們不斷寫支票，不斷有支票來，我們非常---在1430我們停了下來。我們說，夠了，我們完成了，我們要把這筆錢捐獻給世貿中心基金和紅十字會。但還有一些錢在郵寄中，所以最後是一百四十五萬美元。[笑]。 你在談到團結。我認爲這確實顯示如果華人想要顯示他們的團結他們是能夠做到的。他們的確能夠做到。很多人說是我們的功勞，我們收到很多獎賞。但有時當我不得不講些感謝之類的話的時候，我的確認爲這應該是社區民衆的功勞，因爲他們從未做過這樣的事情。從來沒有。 問：這是非常慷慨的，的確令人吃驚，正如你所講，中國人大多時候只是照料自己--- 王：是的。沒錯。 問：但你是否覺得有部分原因是因爲唐人街的位置離Ground Zero非常近，好像從結果來看唐人街也受到了攻擊。如果這發生在，比如說Harlem，你認爲華人社區會做出同樣的反應嗎？ 王：這是一個悲劇。我想如果事件的影響如此之大，他們是會這樣做的。但到了這個極端，我想你講得沒錯，是因爲距離很近。他們能感受到更多的衝擊，他們將感受到更多，因爲他們在這裏，他們看的到，聞的到。我不知道你在哪里，在那之後的一個月我們都在這裏。味道很難聞。 問：先停一下，我們要換磁帶。 王：好的。 [第一盤磁帶第一面完；第一盤磁帶第二面開始] 問：你剛才談到在9/11之後華人展現的這種出人意料的團結。作爲播音員，很明顯你看到人們真誠地信任你，並且把你當作可靠的資訊來源，因爲每個電臺，每個廣播網，每個媒體都在播放同樣的事件，而這麽多人都看你的節目。你認爲是什麽使你們會有這種地位， 人們都在看你們的節目，而不去其他中文電臺捐獻這許多錢？ 王：我想有幾個原因。第一是我們服務社區已有二十六年多了，因此我想我們有華人社區公衆的支援。我認爲這是第一點。我想第二點是媒體的廣播會達到如此多的人，播放非常及時。在那段期間，他們不懂主流報道，又沒有報紙和運輸。如果他們住在皇后區，他們過不來；如果他們住在布魯克林區也過不來。即使他們住在唐人街，他們也可能很難走動，在某種程度上我們成爲了他們的朋友。當你能提供資訊，日日夜夜成爲他們的夥伴的時候，這必然會建立起那種信任。當他們來到這裏時，他們看到是正規的電臺，就是這樣在民衆之間傳開的。我們就是這樣建立起信任的。 同時，我想是通過展現自己的方式來建立起信任的。我們的節目和廣播都製作得非常好，是日日夜夜工作。即使是我們的DJ，他們都知道的，因爲他們聽到相同的聲音。幾乎是24小時不間斷。那是他們從未體驗過的。因爲在過去，你收聽一個節目，然後關掉，或又有另外一個DJ播音，但這是24小時全天候，是同一組DJ播音。我們一些DJ也被感動了，甚至在播音時哭了。我們也有採訪別人，受難者的家屬，他們來到這裏，我們採訪他們。這給聽衆的感觸很大。 因此，我們就是這樣贏得他們的信任的。 問：你是否認爲唐人街在主流媒體上沒有得到足夠的報導，尤其是這裏離Ground Zero很近，而且社區裏有很多居民。 王：是的，絕對是的，我認爲是的。不---我們募捐了一百四十五萬，對不對？是的，我們得到很多報導，我還能給你舉一個例子。我現在手頭沒有，但我想每天，在那期間，如果有人捐了六萬塊錢報紙上會有很大的地方登他們的照片。但我們有被報導，但沒有象其他族裔那麽顯眼。 問：你是否認爲這是因爲亞裔社區沒有領導者？唐人街確實沒有一位元在這類事件發生時來代表社區的，能夠站出來--- 王：[笑] 我想歷史上，作爲一個團體，我們向來不擅長表達。作爲一個團體，我們不是非常---我還不是講有領導或沒有領導，作爲一個團體，我們從來不會積極地表達自己。我們沒有很積極地參與政治活動。 問：你說9/11擡高了你們組織的地位，據我所知是你把支票交給了市長Giuliani--- 王：是的。 問：---在市政廳，有了如此的爆光，這意味著什麽？這對今後有什麽影響，節目的改變，還是你對你在社區所負責任的看法？這一事件是否導致了什麽變化？ 王：正如我所講，這提高了我們的知名度。我想這使我們能夠在社區更加容易拉廣告贊助。但這更加強調了我們必須要在我們的節目中突出社區的需要，我認爲這是十分重要的。我總是主張提供一個供公衆表達自己言論的節目，在我們的廣播中討論問題，我想這一點我們做得很出色。 問：如果華人社區能在9/11事件中團結起來，現在已經過去兩年多了，你是否認爲那個短暫的團結使得唐人街有了些積極的改變？你是否覺得民衆，不同的團體之間的交流增多了，或都在一起努力重建唐人街？還是說大家又恢復了原樣，在事件之後又回到原來的狀態？ 王：我從未注意過不同的團體在做什麽，因此我很難回答這個問題。但我想這確實顯示出那個事件，或那段時期，華人作爲一個群體，如果他們想要做些事情，他們能夠團結起來實現他們的目標。但是否有人領導，是否有一個團體想領導或表示要領導，我不清楚。我不知道。我對當地的政治還沒有瞭解得這樣仔細，但我感到非常自豪---這已經改變了我的看法。這確實已改變我的觀點。我現在在這裏待了這麽長時間，這的確證明瞭---，我從來沒想到中國人會這麽關注周圍發生的事情。中國人總是要確保他們的孩子得到好的教育，他們要確保在銀行裏有足夠的錢過日子，付房租等等。 但我想現在他們已變得更加關心他們周圍發生的事情。我想這是非常好的。 問：你的電臺是否做---，你們有沒有增加對公衆的廣播，或者增加節目來教育華人社區？ 王：是的，我們有。實際上，我剛才談到政治進程，舉民登記。很多人不懂得選舉權利的力量。因此，我們想鼓勵人們去登記。我想前幾個星期我們在這裏舉行了一次活動---，我們出版了一本雜誌，周刊雜誌。是本很流行的雜誌。每個星期六有人過來買雜誌。 有一個星期六我們開始了選民登記。在三個小時內，我們登記了近兩百人。 也許兩百人聽起來是個很小的數目，但你要考慮到大多數人，不是大多數---一些人，他們可能不是永久居民。有些人可能甚至沒有合法身份。能在三個小時內登記兩百個符合條件的選民的確是個不小的數目。從現在到選舉的時候，我們還想多做一些。我想這的確使民衆懂得，如果他們想要做些什麽，如果他們想要得到他們想要的福利或會對他們的孩子有影響的什麽東西，投票是一個十分強大的工具。我們希望能夠實現我們的目標。 問：作爲一個電臺整體，今後你對你們電臺有什麽樣的打算？中國電視還能做些什麽？ 王：如果---[笑]---我告訴你，如果我能夠實現，通過提供娛樂和教育公衆，成爲華人社區和主流社會之間的一座橋梁，我想我已經達到了，而且我做得很出色。那是一個持久的過程。你不能停下來。對於娛樂，你能把節目做得更好，你能進口很多節目。但真要弄清楚社區的需要，你必須要選擇特殊的問題，社會問題，關注實事，政府的專案，這些會影響到美籍華人的生活。 我想我們一定要一方面向華人公衆提供資訊，另一方面爲他們提供一個論壇讓他們發表意見，使他們有機會發表意見。 問：關於他們在美國的生活。 王：是的。比如，兩個星期前我們慶祝安裝了新的電視設備，曼哈頓的區長來爲我們剪綵。 隨後我給她寫了封信，感謝她的參與。我同時請她以區長的身份一起製作一個每周一次或每月一次的節目。這就是我的意思，成爲一種聯繫，在社區和--- 問：你想讓更多的華人參與。 王：更多的參與。像一些小的事情，正如你所講，他們有時會感到一些團體受到冷落。我覺得作爲一個整體華人有時是覺得自己很孤立。他們可能不知道爲什麽，比如，在這裏停車要罰款。他們會有這種想法。爲什麽要我來清除我房前的樹。 但如果你請求一位政府官員回答這些問題，這類問題，這樣會使問題更加容易受到主流社會的注意。這樣他們會感到別人在注意我們。這就是我們想要充當的角色。 問：你們是否有計劃把你們的電臺推向全國，這樣全美國都能看到？ 王：我們希望如此，但那是一個商業決定。我認爲一個電臺的成功，如我先前所講，在於在當地的參與，如在全國範圍內搞，從娛樂角度來看，也許是好的，但對於不同的社區，你仍然必須在當地搞。當我們面向全國時，這會是個挑戰。 問：你是否打算要接受這個挑戰？你要繼續在這個公司做下去嗎？ 王：[笑] 我不知道。我想這裏還是很有意思的。但我想有很多在這裏工作人知道我的想法。而且我們正在朝那個目標努力，無論我是否在這裏，無論是否由我來管理，這並不重要。 問：這是個好的迹象。是一個好的經理的徵兆。如果你離開，一切還會運轉，對嗎？ 王：謝謝你。 這是很重要的。否則，我想媒體的力量會喪失的。我認爲，做生意，做好生意是一件重要的事情，但弄清楚社區的需要也是十分重要的，因此---你也是搞媒體的，用不著我跟你講這些。 問：回顧過去，你是否滿意你所做出的選擇？沒有成爲李安你不後悔嗎？ 王：[笑] Um--- 問：沒有惋惜？ 王：沒有，我沒有任何惋惜。我是十分幸運的。誰會想到一個出自貧窮家庭的男孩能夠到我現在的地步？倒不是說我很成功，但我做了些有意義的事情。我認爲這是很重要的。我是否高興？是的。總的來說，我高興。我們應該總是有高的目標。 問：你仍然年輕。還有時間。 王：[笑] 照相機看不出來，是不是？看這兒。 問：我想你自己也許也很驚奇已經跟我們分享了這麽多你沒有預料到的--- [笑聲] 王：是的，是我一輩子的歷史。 問：既然攝影機還在拍，你還有什麽我沒有問到，要補充或告訴公衆的嗎？ 王：沒有。我想你差不多都問到了。 問：那感謝你，Tony，感謝你的時間--- 王：不客氣，不客氣。 問：我是鄭愛蘭。 [採訪完畢] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tony Wang 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Joseph Chu Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Teri Chan Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-04-24 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation elder Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Mr. Chu, would you say your Chinese name and English name? Chu: I am Joseph Wah Chu. Q: When were you born? Where were you born? Chu: I was born in 1933 in Toishan County, Guangdong Province, China. I studied in my hometown and then went to Guangzhou for high school. After China had been liberated (1949), I moved to Hong Kong. Q: How long did you live in Hong Kong? When did you come to the United States? Chu: I lived in Hong Kong for over ten years. I worked and studied there. I studied at the United College of Chinese University of Hong Kong for four years. I was a teacher for several years. I came to the United States in 1965. I lived in San Francisco for one year and then I moved to New York in 1966. Q: After you came to New York, what did you do? Chu: When I was in San Francisco, I worked as a busboy. I then worked in a department store for several months. The first job I had was a busboy in the House of Chan. Q: Where was the House of Chan? Chu: The restaurant was in midtown. Back then, the restaurants in Chinatown were small, and not as big as the Jing Fong Restaurant and the Silver Palace Restaurant. House of Chan was the biggest among the Chinese restaurants. Q: How big was it? Who were the customers? Chu: The kitchen had more than 10 workers. The dinning area also had more than 10 workers. Most of the customers were foreigners and there were few Chinese. Q: How long did you work in that restaurant? Did you change vocations after that job? Chu: I worked as a busboy for a few months. I purposefully wanted to learn to be a waiter. Then my friends opened a restaurant in Chicago. They asked me to help. I worked in Chicago as a waiter for more than half a year. Q: Did you return to New York after working in Chicago? Chu: Yes. I returned to New York in 1967 and worked in a restaurant as a waiter. My wife came and we were married in 1968. I continued to work as a waiter in a restaurant. Q: Why did you choose New York and not Chicago? Chu: Because I had a lot of friends, coworkers and classmates in New York. We had been good friends in Hong Kong. Hence, I chose New York. And also, job opportunities in New York were better. When compared with San Francisco and Chicago, I chose New York. Q: How long were you in the restaurant business? Chu: Not too long, about two to three years. Then I found a job in an American company, working from Monday to Friday. I still worked in the restaurant during the weekends. Q: What business was the American company? What did you do? Chu: I worked in the office of an electrical appliances company. The work hours were good, from 9am to 5pm. I still worked as a waiter after work. Not only was I so diligent; people at that time used to work seven days a week. The salaries were not high and actually, were low. I had to raise a family and had to work two jobs, seven days a week. The salary I earned on weekends was tax free (not reported). Back then, I was just like the other hardworking Chinese workers, working seven days a week. Q: How were the fringe benefits then? Chu: My job at the American company had weekend and holidays off, as well as medical insurance. Benefits were good. The Chinese restaurants did not provide benefits. I was happy with the medical insurance provided by the American company which covered my family. The standard of living was pretty good then. Q: How many children did you have after your marriage? Chu: I was married in 1968. My eldest daughter was born in 1970. My second daughter was born in 1972. My third daughter was also born in the 1970s. I worked in the American company for several years. There was an energy crisis and economic recession in 1974. Many companies closed down and a lot of workers were laid off. My company laid me off. By then, the Long Island University just started its bilingual program. I enrolled and studied there until 1976. After graduation, I worked in a company in New Jersey. In 1978, I started working at the New York Chinatown Senior Citizen Center. Q: When you first came to the senior center, what was your work? What was the name of the senior center then? Chu: The senior center was called Chinatown Senior Citizen Coalition Center. It was established by five community agencies. Chinese-American Planning Council (CPC) was one of them. Hence, it was called Coalition Center. The senior center started at the basement of the St. Andrew Church. It was moved to 70 Mulberry Street in 1978. I have been working there ever since. Q: This senior center was held by five community agencies. Besides CPC, what are the other four agencies? Chu: The other four are Chinatown Service Center, Chinese Service Center, Chinatown Progressive Association, and The Immigrant Social Service. And also……. Q: I will verify the names. Where was St. Andrew’s church? Chu: St. Andrew’s Church was opposite from the Municipal Building (on Chamber Street). Q: Was it opposite from City Hall? Chu: Yes, although it was not far away from Chinatown, the streets were not good for seniors to walk. The seniors had difficult walking from Chinatown to there. The streets were too narrow. There were not very many members then. When we moved here to 70 Mulberry in 1978, membership increased steadily. Q: When you started working, how many members were there? Where did the seniors come from? Chu: Most of the Chinese immigrants came from Toishan. Over one hundred lunches were served (daily). We didn’t have as many staff as now. There were several workers in the kitchen, three workers in the office, two part-time workers helping with registration. There wes not many staff. Q: What was your position? Chu: I first worked in social work. Q: What were the areas in social work? Chu: Helped seniors with registration (to enroll as a member), filled forms, read letters, answered welfare questions and minimum psychological counseling. Q: What kinds of benefits were provided to the seniors? Chu: I helped them to apply Medicaid, Food stamp, senior housing. The benefits were not as good as today. The seniors at that time were not very complicated and didn’t have as many problems as today, such as domestic conflicts. Now, we have a lot of benefits but the waiting time for senior housing is very long - takes many years from application to approval. The benefits at present are more plentiful than the past but the eligibility is more limited. I remember the seniors who came in 1960’s would immediately get their green cards upon arrival to the United States, and then apply for their benefits. Now they have to reside in the United States for several years before they can apply. Q: How do they know that they are eligible for benefits? Do they read the newspaper, or by words of mouth? Chu: Back then, the senior center had staff to help them to apply. The Social Security Agency also sent their staff (to the senior centers) to explain the benefits. There was also a Social Security Agency staff stationed at The Chinese Consolidated of Benevolent Association (CCBA). Most of the seniors lived alone. Although a lot of seniors live alone now, population in Chinatown was not as densely populated as it is now. Not long after coming to the United States, the children of the elderly reside or work elsewhere for convenience’s sake. The seniors would not move with them because of inconvenient transportation. Hence, their living conditions were bad. The buildings were old and had plenty of rats and roaches. The buildings also lacked water and heat. There were many housing problems. Even though the living conditions were bad, the seniors would not complain because they liked living in Chinatown. Sometimes, our staff had to negotiate with their landlords because there was no water, electricity, or heat in winter. If the landlord was not willing to turn on their heat, we had to file complaints with the government agencies. The social problems they faced back then were not complicated. Q: Besides your senior center, were there other senior centers? Chu: Besides New York Chinatown Senior Citizen Center, Chinatown had Greater Chinatown Community Association, and CPC Project Open Door Senior Citizen Center. Q: What were the differences between these three centers? Chu: Greater Chinatown Community Association is the oldest, and was managed by the Catholic Church and didn’t have government funding. CPC Project Open Door Senior Citizen Center was first managed by the NYC Department of Human Resources. After more than ten years, it was returned to the NYC Department of Aging in 1990s. Both were funded by the government agencies and their managing styles were mildly different. Q: You mentioned the senior center started with one hundred members. How many are there now? Chu: The membership on registration book is over two to three thousand people. A few hundred come everyday to the center for activities. Over one hundred lunches are provided every day. Some members do not have lunch but attend activities such as Mahjong games, singing, sport activities or Tai Chi martial art. There were three hundred members. Now, we have at least five hundred members show up every day. Q: What kinds of activities are there in the senior centers? Chu: The biggest activity is lunch. We also have Chinese music group, choir, Tai Chi class, English class and chess art group. There is dancing every Saturday. In addition to these activities, we also have Chinese painting, calligraphy and poetry classes. There are numbers games every week and news broadcasting every day. Winter activities are less than summer. When the weather is warm, we have trips, mostly for free. Q: Where did most of the trips go? Chu: Most of the trips were one day trips. We started early and came back late. We have gone to parks and specific sightseeing, such as the Bear Mountain. We started early and came back late. The seniors like this a lot. Q: Where do the seniors come from? Chu: In the past, most of the elderly were Chinatown residents. Now, many of them come from uptown, Brooklyn, Queens and even Staten Island. The members are very active and are vastly differ from those of 1969. The members at that time only loved to play Mahjong and rarely go on trips, they would rather stay in Chinatown. Q: Why are Chinese seniors living outside of Chinatown? Chu: Chinese seniors lived outside because Chinatown housing is old and worn out and living space is very limited and saturated. When I first arrived, the best residential area was the Two-Bridge government buildings. Confucius Plaza (on Bowery Street) was not built at that time and it was only a desolate spot. After the Confucius Plaza was built in 1970’s, Chinatown had a good residential area. When young Chinese women immigrants first came here, most of them belonged to the 23-25 union (Garment Union) and worked in the garment industry or laundry industry. Chinese men used to work in restaurant or grocery stores. There were not many job choices. Q: You mentioned that the senior problems at present are more complicated than in the past. How are they more complicated? Can you give an example? Chu: When I said it is complicated, it does not mean that it is abnormal. Take domestic conflict as an example. The families in the past were simple. Young generations studied hard and were obedient to their parents. The American news reported a warm and happy picture of the Chinese families. Later immigrant policy became more lenient. As more immigrants came, the family structure became more complicated. Some youngsters went astray. Society changed and Chinatown had more gambling places and gangs, thus creating more family problems. Later, when the immigrant policy of the United States was tightened, some people came illegally: some of them came by visas and did not return; some came by marriages, whether real or fraudulent marriages. Some of our male members also did the fraudulent marriages. Some of them even got into trouble. They helped the women get residential status and were kicked away. Some of them had trouble even before the women had gotten green cards. At the same time, when the children got their parents to the United States, the parents found out that life was not what they expected upon arrival. It is not so easy to find jobs and their living standards are worse than in China. For instance, they were doctors, engineer or teachers in China but they would not be able to find similar jobs in America. They can only be inferior workers in restaurants, garment factories, groceries or be a dishwasher. If they ran into a bad economy, there would be even more family problems such as the seniors not getting along with their daughters-in-laws or grandchildren. Some seniors told me that they had to open beds at night and fold them up early in the morning (for their sleeping arrangement). Or they had to sleep with their grandchildren. After a few years, the children grew up and the seniors couldn’t share the beds with their grandchildren anymore. Some of them had to sleep in the living rooms so it was inconvenient. There are many similar complaints. This is a social problem. I wish the government has more funding to address this problem. The senior housing is a huge issue. Q: Are there senior housings for the elderly? Chu: Chinatown has a senior house, which is Chung Pak Building on Baxter Street. Further away there are several senior houses. The waiting list for Chinatown housing is very long. Take Chung Pak Building as an example, when the building was built, there were eighty-eight units available but five thousand application forms were filed. Some members have a waiting list numbering of one or two thousand plus. How long do you think they have to wait? Therefore housing is really a problem. Of course, there were some government housing buildings near Chinatown. But public safety was such a concern that people dared not to move in. If they moved in, they had to go home early or would not go out at night, otherwise they might be robbed. Now public safety is much better. Back in the 1970s, it wasn’t that safe. When some of the seniors were robbed by Puerto Ricans, they dared not utter a word because they were afraid of revenge. The seniors would put ten dollars in their pocket just in case they came out of the elevators and ran into a robber. They figured this money was part of paying rent. Even if the robbers looked familiar, they wouldn’t dare to identify them in case of revenge. By the 1980s, the situation had improved. Police patrolled more. Underground gambling was closed and gangster activities were lessened. Public safety improved. More police patrolled government housings so crimes rates went down. Q: How is the public safety in Chinatown now? Chu: It is getting worse recently. When mayor Giuliani was in office for those few years, public security was best. The 5th precinct also improved their services. There were more patrols and more action against illegal gambling. The public safety was improved. Q: Why is public safety worse than the past few years? Chu: Perhaps after 9/11, more unemployed people tend to make money by illegal means. Public safety is worse in the past two years. Q: On the date of 9/11, where were you and what were you doing? Chu: In 2001, I had retired but I volunteered in the senior center. On 9/11, we took the seniors for a trip to Long Wood Garden (Pennsylvania). Our staff, Alan Tran and I, led the trip. The seniors boarded the bus on 8:30am on Canal Street. The bus left at 8:35am or 8:40am. When the bus turned from Bowery onto Worth Street and Centre Street at 8:45am, we saw a huge crowd running on the streets. Alan asked, why were there so many people running? I said maybe they were chasing after thieves. The bus went on. We saw that the tower of the World Trade Center closest to us was on fire. The passengers and the driver all shouted. The driver said it’s burning! I took a few pictures with my camera because I thought it was similar to the bombing of the World Trade Center’s basement back in the 1990s. I could not imagine that it was an airplane hitting the building. The bus doors and windows were all closed so we couldn’t hear the noises, we only saw people running and the police cars and fire engines. We thought it was the same kind of bombing as before, didn’t think it was so serious. As our bus continued to pass thru Holland Tunnel to Pennsylvania, we talked about the previous bombing at World Trade Center and said it was easier to rescue (because of the lower level). I said maybe they need to have helicopters and drop some chemicals to keep the fire under control since it was so high up. Once we came out the tunnel, we saw an airplane so I added, “Here comes the plane to put out the fire!” Everyone saw the plane. The plane and our bus moved at different directions so we did not see the plane again. The driver had a son who was supposed to work at the World Trade Center in the afternoon. He used his cellular phone to call his son for updates. His son was watching television and speaking to our diver. When the driver told us what was broadcasting on the television, then we knew how serious it was. The fire was caused by a plane hitting one of the towers, it was not a bombing. The plane that we just saw after coming out of the tunnel was the plane that hit the second World Trade tower. We only knew at that moment that terrible things had happened and we were scared. When the bus finally arrived at Long Wood Garden, we weren’t in the mood for sightseeing. Soon, the bus driver suggested that we leave because the tunnel might be closed. The highway was congested. After few hours, we could not return to New York. The radio said all bridges and tunnels were closed. We tried to return by Staten Island. The bridges were also closed and cars in the highway were not moving at all. We stopped at a place in New Jersey. The driver suggested that we take the Path Train if they were running. Alan and I went to check. A policeman passed by and said the Path Train was about to leave for New York City. Alan and I returned to the bus and brought the seniors to broad the train. The driver stayed with his bus. We brought the seniors back to 34th Street in New York City. The seniors then took the subways home. Everyone had a long day. Q: Did you or any of the seniors have friends and relatives working in the World Trade Center? Chu: My eldest daughter worked in Water Street , near the World Trade Center. She told me afterwards that she got out of the subway at 9am. Every means of transport had closed down. With no subway and no bus, she could not return. Because she bought a condo at Brooklyn Heights, she walked over the Brooklyn Bridge to get home. The other two daughters did not work downtown and they had no problem. When we gathered later on, many members told their stories. Some members who lived in Queens, Brooklyn and uptown had to walk several hours home. More than ten seniors who lived either at Queens or Brooklyn stayed overnight at the senior center because no one could pick them up. They returned home the next day. Not so many stayed overnight. Q: Did you call the senior center on 9/11, to ask the director for instructions? Chu: We talked over the phone. I told the senior center that we had arrived safely at the destination. At the same time, (I was informed that) many members in the senior center saw the towers on fire and collapsing. Many people in Chinatown saw it. They saw it at the corner of Columbus Park and watched the tragedy as if it was a movie. Q: How was the situation at the senior center after 9/11? Did you come to Chinatown? Chu: There was no transportation for one day. After that day, subway and bus returned to normal schedule so people returned. Those who lived far away didn’t return because of the transportation uncertainty. In those days, there were fewer members at the senior center. People from Queens, Brooklyn and uptown didn’t return. Q: They did not show up because of transportation problems or other problems? Chu: Transportation returned to normal but the seniors worried something might happen and did not come. Q: How did you feel? Chu: Me and the seniors experienced wars so we were not as frightened by 9/11 attack and explosion. We are old and not scared. We were only worried about the transportation. We were concerned for our young generation. We worried about the social unrest after 9/11 and the economic decline, the effects on the younger generations’ jobs and employment. The seniors worried that these kinds of situations would make their children lose their jobs or lose money on their businesses. The seniors themselves experienced wars, so emotionally they were not scared by the changes. Q: Which wars did you refer to? Chu: Our seniors went through World War II, many had experienced the conflicts between (China’s) communist and Kuomintang struggle, and the communist regime. Compared to these wars, this was minor. Q: How did your senior center help the seniors? And help them to discuss (this event)? Chu: After 9/11, the seniors were relatively calm. Some of them worried that the business of their friends and relatives would be affected. Some of them worried that their children would lose their jobs. These were more indirect. The most direct effect was the air pollution in Chinatown. Many weeks later, air quality in Chinatown was terrible. There was a certain smell to it. There were lots of floating pollutants in the air which directly affected our health. Q: Did the government help? Chu: After 9/11, government reacted fast and established a 9/11 assistance center. Those in need could apply for air filters and air conditioners. Those residents who lost economically after 9/11 were also helped. Our seniors benefited from the policy. They could apply for new air conditioners, air filters and rental assistance. The benefits helped their lives and financial situation. Q: How sufficient were the benefits? Chu: It was not necessary enough, but it wasn’t bad. Q: You just mentioned that the seniors worried most about the younger generations’ jobs and business. Did the government help the younger generations? Chu: Yes, Chinatown established a development council to bring in business. After 9/11, Chinatown was very quite. People in the other boroughs such as Queens would not come to Chinatown. Business dropped drastically. The government established a tourist promotion agency with Chinatown business to promote Chinatown. A lot of performances and activities were made to attract more tourists to our restaurants, tourist agencies and other agencies. Business recovered to a large scale and now Chinatown is almost as busy as before. Q: Some seniors did not show up after 9/11. When did they return? Chu: After 2-3 weeks, the seniors came back because they felt everything was normal again. The seniors were afraid of detours in transportation. They did not know how to transfer. For example, they used to take the 6 Train to Chinatown. If there was a detour or a train did not show up, they did not know how to cope and they would not come. Q: Is this due to language barriers that the seniors did not know how to transfer? Chu: Yes. It still is a problem. On weekends, less seniors come to the senior center, especially from Brooklyn, where there is always subway construction. The subway always had detours. The seniors could not read the subway map or ask for help so they did not know how to transfer. That’s why they don’t come to the senior center during weekends. Q: There are maps, flyers and notices available in Chinese languages in Chinatown and Flushing. Would this help the seniors? Chu: They should but the seniors did not feel comfortable so they wouldn’t show up. They would rather rest for a day. Q: Besides Chinatown, are there Senior Centers elsewhere? Chu: There are a lot of senior centers in Brooklyn and Queens, especially in Queens. Some are managed by Chinese and others by Americans. Many seniors are members of both Chinatown and Queens senior centers. Q: If they had already moved to Queens and Brooklyn, why did they come to the senior centers in Chinatown? Chu: Although some members moved to Queens and Brooklyn, many of their friends and relatives are in Chinatown. At the same time, they come to Chinatown to see their doctors, visit friends, or do shopping. Q: After 9/11, how did you know there were 9/11 services available? Chu: After 9/11, the government set up a special department to help out victims of 9/11. An office was set up near where the old Chinese American Bank was. They had news, flyers, and outreach to senior centers. They explained their benefits to the residents of Lower Manhattan, including housing assistance, air filters and related welfare. The application procedures were simple. Applicants would just go to Chinese American Bank on Park Row. They also sent staff to our senior centers to explain and fill out forms. It was very convenient. Q: How complicated was the application form? Chu: Our staff was used to filling out forms for the seniors. The applicants mainly needed proof of residence in Lower Manhattan. Sufficient proofs were phone bills, Con Edison bills and rent receipts. Q: Since a lot of seniors lived with their children, could they have those proofs? Chu: The young people could also apply for the 9/11 benefit. Of course many seniors lived with their children who suffered job or business loss because of 9/11. Hence, a small business assistance project was set up to subsidize the businessmen who suffered loss. Q: What do you think of the business subsidy? Chu: I have heard that business was bad after 9/11. Some small business received direct economic assistance and financial aid. Hence, there were not many stores closed down due to 9/11’s bad economy. Q: You said that 9/11 was not so frightening compared to other wars. What wars did you experience? Chu: During World War II, I was several years old and still living in the village in Toishan County. I heard the machine guns and canister explosions. My family brought me to safe shelters often. Some members were older than me, some younger. Besides World War II, they experienced (China’s) civil wars, or internal power struggles of the Communist China or many wars before they finally came to America. Hence, they thought 9/11 was only minor and were not as frightened. The seniors were more worried about their children’s’ unemployment and business, family problems, and the heavy burden of their youngsters. Q: What kinds of family problems did they have? Can you give me an example? Chu: For example, if the senior’s son and daughter-in-law were unemployed. They would be bad moods and may get into arguments with the senior. There was one senior who came to sit in front of the senior center early in the morning, waiting for it to open and didn’t leave until closing. After that, he still sat in the park for a long time before going home. Because the son and daughter-in-law were unemployed and the place they lived together was very small. He slept in the living room so he had to open his bed at night and in the morning. If he stayed at home for a longer time with the son, it was easy to enter into an argument. Q: Can they apply for government senior housing? Chu: We tried to help them to apply senior housing. The waiting list was so long. Those who were lucky can get it pretty fast and some have to be on waiting list. Some of them get notified to look at housing immediately. If they didn’t mind the location, taking the trains to mid-town, then it’s easier. But if they only consider locations near Chinatown, whether it’s senior housing or low-income housing, they have to wait for a long time. Q: How long is the waiting list? Why such a long list? Chu: The waiting lists are so long because of too many applicants, especially near Chinatown. We have a lot of seniors living in the low-income housing on 5th Street and Avenue B. Q: If they have to live in Chinatown, how long do they have to wait? 5 years? 10 years? Chu: Many years. Q: When you first arrived, a lot of seniors came from Toishan or they were old immigrants. Have there been any changes? Where do the current seniors come from? Chu: In 1960, when Mainland Chinatown was still a closed country, our members came mainly from the Toishan and Four County (in Guangdong) areas. After China established foreign relations with the US, more immigrants came from Mainland China and Taiwan. Chinatown seniors are mostly from Guangdong Province and they speak Cantonese. A few of them speak Mandarin. If classified by occupation, immigrants from Mainland have higher education level than the older immigrants. Although this is the case, many of them still couldn’t find the same type of jobs as before. For example, the people sent by CPC to work as kitchen staff (in the senior center), many of them were college graduated and were engineers, doctors, etc. But since their occupations and qualifications in Mainland are not recognized in the United States, they can only work in labor intensive work. Q: Besides the language barrier, are there other barriers…? Chu: Yes. Q: How many senior centers are there in Chinatown now? Chu: Chinatown has more senior centers. The old Chinatown includes only Mott Street, Bayard Street and Mulberry Street. Anywhere past Canal Street was Little Italy and many Italians lived there before. There were only a few passers-by on Bowery and beyond Sun Sing Theater (on East Broadway & Market St). Chinatown has expanded several times. Many seniors come from East River (Lower East Side) and Little Italy, which becomes part of Chinatown now. Q: What are the new senior centers in Chinatown? Chu: Besides the New York Chinatown Senior Citizen Center, the CPC Project Open Door Senior Citizen Center, and the Greater Chinatown Community Association that have existed for a long time, we have LaGuardia Senior Center near Governiur Hospital. This area used to be an American area and now is considered Chinatown. We also have City Hall Senior Center, which is a city agency operated senior center. It used to serve the Americans and it is one of the oldest senior centers. Now it serves mostly Chinese. Although Chinatown is not big, we have several senior centers. Q: Why are the seniors going back and forth between senior centers? Chu: The seniors like to have multiple memberships in different senior centers. They have different preferences. Take lunch, for example, everyone has different taste. If they are near Mulberry Street then they will come to us; if they are closer to CPC Project Open Door, they go there; if they are near City Hall or come by 4,5,6 subway, they will go to City Hall Senior Center. Members also like to go the centers where the staff have similar backgrounds with them. For example, City Hall Center attracts a lot of Mandarin speaking members. Similar backgrounds come together. Seniors who come by B, D, Q trains may go to CPC Project Open Door which is next to the (Grand Street) train station. Some choose by activities and services. Some people like dancing, Tai Chi, or Cantonese classics songs. Some like our Mahjong games, singing, painting and calligraphy. Some come to us when we have trips. Some like our dancing on Saturdays. Some attend the activities of City Hall Senior Center. The seniors are very active nowadays. Q: In the past ten years, many Fuzhou immigrants have applied for their parents to come here. Do you have a lot of Fuzhou senior members? Chu: We don’t have many Fuzhou senior members, only a few members. Perhaps they live further away from us. They are more likely at LaGuardia Senior Center and less at our center. When they attend our activities, they are able to communicate with our staff in Mandarin. Q: Can the Fuzhou members communicate with the Cantonese or Toishan members? Chu: Some members do not differentiate languages. Communication depends on personality. Whether they speak Mandarin, Cantonese or Fuzhou dialects, they can play mahjong, chess together. Some are friendly. Some alienate themselves. Q: Besides senior housing, are there other problems? Chu: Housing is a major problem. Older immigrant members do not have financial and medical care problems. They have retirement benefits. If they have financial problems, they can apply for welfare and food stamps. New members have more problems. It is more difficult for them to get benefits in a short period of time; they have to work for a number of years first. CPC always sends us some seniors who are new immigrants in their 60’s because they haven’t met the income requirement to apply for medical insurance. Because of government policy and restrictions, we cannot help them. Q: What do you think Chinatown can do to help these seniors? Chu: In the past recent years, Chinatown has many social agencies trying to help these new immigrants, such as the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association and Chinatown Manpower Project, Inc., which provide English or employment training classes, free citizenship classes and welfare applications. There are more services for Chinese than in the past. Q: Are these services for seniors and other age groups? Chu: They are for all, indiscriminate of their ages. Q: How do you want Chinatown to change? How can Chinatown help the elderly? Chu: First, I wish that more low income housing will be built for the people. The economic structure has changed drastically from a few thousand garment factories to only a few. The door for immigrant women to work in a garment industry is almost closed. We have more stores but not skilled training for new immigrants. I wish more social agencies like the Chinatown Manpower Project or CPC to provide more employment training classes, to enable more new immigrants to get training so they can integrate into the society and find jobs. Once they have a better standard of living, then they get to do other things. Q: Thank you, Mr. Chu Chu: You’re welcome. (end of tape) Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：朱先生，可以講一下你的中文名及英文名？ 朱：我叫朱祖華，英文名叫Joseph Wah Chu。 問：你是幾時出生，在那裡出生？ 朱：我在1933年在中國廣東台山出生，在鄉下讀過書，畢業之後，就去廣州讀中學，解放後到香港。 問：你在香港住了多久？何時來美國？ 朱：我在香港住了10多年，做過工，讀過中學，在聯合書院讀過4年書，跟著做了幾年老師。1965年來到美國，先到三藩市住了一年，1966年來到紐約(New York)。 問：來到紐約之後，曾經做什麼？ 朱：我在三藩市的時候，曾經做過茶水(busboy)，然後在百貨公司(department store)做幾個月，來到紐約第一份工作是在陳家園餐館做茶水(busboy)。 問：當時陳家園在那裡？ 朱：陳家園在中城(midtown)，當時唐人街餐館的規模很小，沒有金豐﹑銀宮餐館這麼大，當時唐中餐館之中，陳家園算是最大。 問：大到有多少人做工，主要客人是什麼人？ 朱：廚房10多人做工，樓面餐廳有10多人，以外國人為多，中國人不是很多。 問：你在餐館做了多久？或是之後你是否轉了行？ 朱：我在餐館做茶水(busboy)只做了幾個月，因為想偷師學到企檯(待應，waiter)，做了幾個月，我的朋友在芝加哥開餐館，叫我去幫手，我就去了芝加哥在那裡做企檯，做了大半年。 問：你去了芝加哥之後，你又回來紐約？ 朱：是的，大概1967年回來紐約(New York)，在餐館做企檯，因為那時太太又來了，我們在1968年結婚，繼續在紐約餐館做企檯。 問：為什麼你選擇在紐約，而不選擇留在芝加哥？ 朱：因為紐約有很多朋友﹑同事及同學，在香港時候已是很好朋友，所以我選擇來紐約做工，同時紐約工作機會好一點，所以我經過比較三藩市及芝加哥等，選擇來紐約。 問：你是否在餐館做很久？ 朱：也不是很久，才兩﹑三年。之後找到老番公司做工，星期一至五，周末仍然到餐館做工。 問：你的老番公司是什麼公司？你當時做什麼工作？ 朱：是在電器公司的辦公室幫忙，時間非常好，朝九晚五，之後到唐人餐館做企檯，當時不單是我這樣搏命(努力)，那些年份的工人一星期做七天工，工資不是高，很低，且要養家，真的要做兩份工才足夠，那時一星期做7天，周末那份收入不用報稅，所以那時一星期做7天工作，像其他華人一樣搏命。 問：當時的福利如何？ 朱：在老番公司做工依然有周末及醫藥燕梳，福利不錯，唐人餐館沒有這些福利。有家人的醫藥已算不錯了，生活都滿好的。 問：你結婚後有多少個子女？ 朱：我1968年結婚之後，1970年後第一個女出生，跟著1972年第2個女出生，197幾年第3個女出生，一直幾年做老番公司做工，做到1974年遇到能源危機，經濟蕭條，很多公司關門，很多人失業，公司解僱(layout)我。剛巧長島大學(Long Island) 有雙語教育開放，所以我就去報名讀書至1976年，畢業之後到新澤西州(New Jersey)一間公司做工，然後1978年來華埠老人中心做工。 問：你初來華埠老人中心做工怎樣？那時的老人中心叫什麼名字？ 朱：老人中心叫華埠老人聯合中心，因為開創初期，老人中心由5個社區團體合辦，華策會是其中一個，所以改名叫老人聯合中心。1974年開始，在聖安得烈教堂(St. Andrew)租個土庫開辦，1978年搬到茂比利街70號，剛搬來時我就到此做工。 問：老人中心由5個團體合辦，除了華策會外，其他4個機構是什麼？ 朱：一個叫華埠服務社﹑華人服務社﹑華埠協進會﹑華僑福社(華僑社會福利社)。還有….。 問：我們將會查考一下。 問：聖安得烈教堂(St. Andrew)在那裡？ 朱：聖安得烈教堂(St. Andrew)在空孔樓(Municipal Building)對面。 問：即大會堂(City Hall)對面？ 朱：是的，離華埠不遠，但小路很難行，耆老從華埠中心區走過去比較危險。同時小路很窄，所以會員不多。 　　到1978年搬了過來，到茂比利街70號，(會員)人數增加很多。 問：那你開始工作時，老人中心人數有多少？老人從那裡來？ 朱：那是老華僑大多數從台山來，每日只供應百多份餐，沒有那麼多職員，廚房只有幾個工人，辦公室職員只有3個，同時有兩個兼職幫忙登記，職員數目很少。 問：你的職位是做什麼？ 朱：初來時做社會服務(social work)。 問：社會服務是做什麼工作？ 朱：幫老人家入會﹑填表﹑讀信﹑回答福利問題﹑及少許心理輔導。 問：當時老人有什麼福利，同現在有什麼不同？ 朱：那時有醫療補助(Medicaid)﹑糧食券(Foodstamp)﹑申請老人屋，沒有現在那麼好。那時的老人似乎比較單純，沒有現在這麼多問題，諸如家庭糾紛。同時，現在很多申請福利，老人屋申請到批准的等候期很長，要很多年才批准，但現在的福利比較好，如糧食券(Foodstamp)，但比較難申請到。我記得60年代老人初來到埗會馬上有綠卡，即可以申請福利，但現在要住幾年才有資格申請福利。 問：那時候怎樣才知道有福利？是看報紙﹑口傳或是其他？ 朱：那時是老人中心的職員教他們申請福利，同時社會局派專人講解， 同時中華公所也有社會局的職員駐守。那時老人大部份都是獨居，到現在也有不少人獨居，華埠的人口不多。會員的子女來到美國不久就遷居別的地方居住或做工，因交通方便搬到別的地方，老人會員不願跟隨子女搬遷。因此他們居屋環境很差，樓宇老舊，老鼠蟑螂很多，缺水缺暖氣，房屋問題頗嚴重。雖然居住環境差，但老人沒有怨言，因為他們喜歡住在華埠，我們有時要聯絡他們的業主，因為沒有水沒電，或天冷沒暖氣，聯絡屋主。如業主不願意開暖氣，還要替他們打電話向政府投訴。那時社會問題不算多。 問：當時除了你的老人中心以外，還有其他的老人中心嗎？ 朱：除了老人聯合中心，華埠還有安老會﹑還有一間人瑞老人中心，安老會可以算是最老資格，由天主教堂主辦。其次是人瑞中心，在1972年已經有，也是由華策會主辦。 問：這三個老人中心有什麼不同？ 朱：先講安老會，由教堂主辦，屬於私人，沒有政府的經費或津貼。人瑞中心由華策會主辦，屬老人局。老人聯合中心起初時不屬於老人局，是屬於人力資源局，經營了10多年，到90年代人力資源局交還老人局管理，同樣屬於政府經費，但經營手法有少許不同。 問：你說當時老人中心有百多名會員，現在又增加了多少？ 朱：註冊會員有2000至3000名，但每天來活動的有幾百人，午餐只有百多份，有些會員不吃午餐，只來活動，如打麻雀﹑唱歌﹑運動或耍太極，只有300多人活動。現在每天至少有500多人活動。 問：老人中心有什麼活動？ 朱：最大的活動項目是午餐，有中樂組﹑歌詠團﹑太極班﹑英文班﹑棋藝社，逢星期六有舞蹈班，除此活動以外，還有國畫﹑書法班及詩詞班，每個星期都有數字遊戲，每日有新聞講座。天氣冷時活動較少，天暖時還有旅行，多數是免費的。 問：你們多數去那裡？ 朱：我們多數去一天遊，早出晚歸。去公園(park)﹑或特別旅遊景點，如大熊山，清早去，晚上回來，會員都頗喜歡。 問：會員多數從那裡來？ 朱：以前大部份在唐人街居住，現在很多來自埠上(uptown)，布碌崙﹑皇后區，甚至史丹頓島都有。現在的會員很活躍，和1969年的會員不一樣，那時會員除了打麻雀外，其他什麼都不喜歡，很少去旅行，寧願困在唐人街。 問：現在的老人為什麼住在外面？ 朱：現在的老人家住在外面，因為唐人街的居住的地方爛，且地方飽和，初來的時候，唐人街最好的住宅區在橋景大樓，那是孔子大廈仍未建築，那裡只是一片爛地，孔子大廈在197幾年興建成，唐人街才有些好住宅區。初來的唐人亞姆在年青時是衣廠工人，大部份是23-25工會會員，女工在衣廠或衣館工作，男的多數從事餐館或雜貨店，沒有現時那麼多工作種類。 問：你剛才說現在的老人問題比較複雜，是什麼樣的複雜？可舉例說明其中一個問題嗎？ 朱：所謂難搞也不怎樣特別，譬如家庭問題，以前的家庭配搭很單純，年青夫婦的孩子讀書很乖，曾經美國報紙讚揚華人家庭父慈子孝，又乖。後來移民政策開放，移民多了，家庭轉趨複雜，後生一輩不那麼走正途，華埠社會轉變，多了賭場，多了幫派，弄到家庭複雜了。同時因為申請來美國的條件更嚴格，有些偷渡，有些申請旅遊來留下，沒有回去，有些利用結婚的辦法，有些真結婚，有些假結婚。我們老人會也有很多亞伯幫人做假結婚，有很多有關假結婚的個案。曾經幾個亞伯因假結婚問題搞出麻煩，曾經幫女士找到居留，之後被人一腳踢開；有些未取到綠卡便搞出麻煩。 　　　　同時有些子女申請老人家來，老人家發覺來了美國和想像的不同，本以為美國遍地黃金，很容易找工作，來到後發覺居住的環境比以前的大陸更差，找工作也不如預計容易，整天所做的工找不到以前的好工作，譬如以前在大陸是醫生﹑工程師，或者做老師，移民到美國不能幹回以前的職業，只能做在餐館﹑衣廠﹑ 雜貨店工作﹑或洗盤碗﹑等低賤工作。經濟環境又不利，家庭中很多磨擦，老人家很多問題，和子媳相處不來，和孫兒更合不來，同時居住環境狹窄，有些會員跟我說，他們晚上要開床，早上要收好這張床，有些和孫兒一起睡，到孫兒長大些，又不能同睡了。有些在廳中睡，不方便，諸如此類很多投訴。這是社會問題，希望政府幫忙加添資源。現在老人居住問題很嚴重。 問：華埠有沒有老人屋，讓他們住？ 朱：華埠有一間老人屋，在巴士打街有一間松柏大廈，給老人家居住。距離遠一點有幾間老人屋，但華埠老人屋早已滿額，要等候很久才可以入住。以松柏大廈為例，樓宇建成後，申請填表時有5000人申請，但實際只有88個單位，等候名單中有些是1000多號或2000多號，你看要等多久？所以住屋問題嚴重。 　　當然有些政府樓距離華埠不遠，因為以前治安不好，不敢入住，或很早要回家，入夜後不敢外出。因為早出或晚歸都會遇到打劫。現在的治安比較好。那時在1970年代治安比較差，有波多黎各的西語裔人打劫，不敢出聲，如果報警，怕被報復，那時老人口袋裡有十多元，若出電梯，遇打劫時，說當交租！同時覺得劫匪臉孔熟悉，也不敢出聲，怕被報復。到1980年代，情況有改變，警方加強治安，封殺地下賭場，幫派活動收歛， 治安改善了。政府樓又加添了警察巡邏，劫案減少了。 問：華埠的治安現在怎樣？ 朱：最近差了些。以前朱利安尼市長治理幾年後，治安非常好，就算第五分區拿的宗旨也非常好，巡邏密，打擊非法賭場，執行得好，治安改善了。 問：這幾年治安轉壞，為什麼呢？ 朱：可能是9/11後，經濟轉差，人們失業多了，多了挺而走險的人。故此這兩年治安差了。 問：9/11當天，你在那裡？你在做什麼？ 朱：2001年我已經退休，我在老人中心義務工作，9/11那天，我們剛好約定老人們去長木公園旅行，我和一位較年輕的職員陳亞倫(Alan)一起帶隊旅行，在8時30分在堅尼路上車，8時35分至40分開車，在包厘街轉窩富街時，到中央街，約在45分，看見街上很多人連走帶跑，陳姓職員問為什麼這麼多人，我說估計是捉賊，車再轉彎，很多人望見世貿近我們那幢樓上起火，全車人連司機都起哄，司機話「上面起火了」，我拿起照相機拍了幾幅，以為好像是199幾年世貿樓下的爆炸，並不以為是飛機撞，因為車門緊閉，我們聽不到聲音，只見多人忽然在跑，又見消防車及警車鳴鳴作響，才估計可能是以前同樣遭人爆炸，但也不覺得特別嚴重。車繼續行，經過荷蘭隧道(Holland Tunnel)到賓州(Pennsylvania)， 一直行還回憶以前世貿中心爆炸的事，還討論到以前救火比較易，現在高層起火，我還說可能要用直昇機或飛機才救到火，可能要抛下化學品。過了隧道，看見飛機，我還評論說，這飛機一定是來救火的了。大家看見飛機與我們的巴士飛往不同的方向，就看不見了。 　　司機知道兒子在下午將會往世貿返工，打手提電話問兒子情況，兒子正在看電視，和司機講電話，司機向我們轉述電視的畫面，才知道事態嚴重，原來第一次起火，是飛機撞入大廈，不是爆炸。我們出了隧道看的飛機原來也撞到第二座世貿中心了。我們才知事態嚴重，知驚。巴士到長木公園，我們沒有心情玩。一會兒，司機提議離開，因為恐怕不能過隧道。誰知在高速公路塞車，跑了幾小時也未能到紐約。聽收音機說所有橋樑及隧道已被封鎖，我們嘗試從史丹頓島回來，那些小橋也封閉了，汽車大排長龍，沒有辦法行走，隧道及橋也關閉了。我們去到新澤西(New Jersey)一處地方停下來，司機建議我們到長途火車(Path Train)站看看是否有車，我和亞倫去查，剛剛有警察經過，有些人說Path Train剛剛有一班要開了，我們及愛倫回去報告，我帶了幾十名老人離開，司機說要守著巴士過夜，我帶了老人家乘Path Train到紐約34街，老人們各自乘地車(subway)回家，各人都經過很長的一天。 問：當時你或老人家有沒有親人在世貿中心做工？ 朱：大女在水街(Water街)近世貿中心工作，事後，她憶述說，早上9時從地車上來，什麼都封閉了， 沒有地車，也沒有巴士，她不能走回頭路。因為她買了公寓(condo)在布碌崙高地(Brooklyn Heights)，她步行過布碌崙橋走回家。其他兩名女兒不在下城(downtown)做工，沒有遇到問題。我們回來以後，很多會員講述其經歷，9/11當晚有些會員在皇后區或布碌崙住，在埠上住的要行幾個小時才回到家中，有十多個沒有人接，又在布碌崙或皇后區住，於是留在老人中心過夜，第二天才回去，只有十多人在大廳過夜，人不算多。 問：當日9/11旅行時，你有沒有打電話回老人中心，問主任當時如何處理？ 朱：我們通過電話，我告訴老人中心我們平安抵達目的地，沒有危險。同時華埠老人中心雖然很多會員目擊大廈起火及倒塌，因為在哥倫布公園的角落可以望到世貿中心，華埠很多人見到，如同電影般看到慘劇。 問：過了9/11之後幾天，老人中心的情況如何？你自己有沒有來華埠？ 朱：那時沒有車，休息了一天，但過了一天，恢復地車及巴士，大家又回來了，有些老人住在較遠處不敢前來，恐怕交通有問題，故此那些日子來中心活動的人數較少，在皇后區﹑布碌崙及埠上的會員不敢來。 問：是否因為交通問題及其他問題？ 朱：交通算恢復，但老人心中恐怕有其他問題，故此不敢來。 問：那你自己的感覺如何？ 朱：我和老人們曾經經過戰亂，對於9/11的襲擊及爆炸不感覺受到驚嚇，而是年齡大不怕。所驚是交通問題，所怕的是擔心後輩，驚9/11之後社會不安定，經濟受到影響，我們的後輩做生意或打工的受影響，情況使老人家擔心子女沒有工作，做生意的生意一落千丈。 老人家本身心理上經過戰亂，處變不驚。 問：你所指的戰亂是什麼？ 朱：是，我們的老人家有經過第二次世界大戰﹑國共內亂﹑很多人經過共產黨統治，所以講起來，這些屬於小兒科。 問：你們老人中心有沒有辦法幫助他們，和他們傾談？ 朱：9/11後，老人家很平靜，有些老人說，他們的親戚朋友或家人的生意受影響，有些擔心子女失去工作，這是大謂事(一般人都遇到的事)。但是最直接影響唐人街的華人是空氣的污染。之後很多個星期，唐人街的空氣污染，聞到一股味，空氣中有很多渣滓在飄浮，這些直接影響人們的健康。 問：政府有沒有幫助你們？ 朱：9/11之後，政府算是反應頗快，成立9/11救濟的機構，讓需要的人申請空氣清新機及冷氣機，或者因為9/11後經濟有損失者，成立機構幫助華埠居民，我們很多老人家都受惠很多，因為可以申請新的冷氣機及空氣清新機，又可補助租金，對生活及經濟幫助很大。 問：這些福利是否足夠？ 朱：說不上足不足夠，但算是不錯。 問：你剛才說老人家主要是擔心子女，怕經濟不好，或失業，你覺得政府有沒有幫助老人的家人(後生)？ 朱：有，我們成立機構發展華埠經濟，幫助很大，9/11後華埠市面水靜河飛，其他紐約市的居民(如在皇后區等)都不敢來華埠，生意一落千丈。到政府成立觀光機構推展華埠，風光之後，與商家合作，搞很多節目，吸引遊客，餐館﹑旅行社和其他社區團體，搞很多活動，吸引遊客，所以華埠生意恢復很多，至今和以前差不多。 問：有些老人停了沒有來，到後來那時候才回來？ 朱：遲了二﹑三個星期，老人又來了，因為他覺得正常了。老人家最怕地車改道，不知如何轉車，譬如6號車原本來到華埠，如要轉車，沒有車，就不知道怎轉車，就不會來了。 問：老人不懂轉車，是不是因為語言問題？ 朱：是，到現在也是，因為星期六﹑星期日，比較少人來老人中心。尤其布碌崙那邊，因為在周末修理車路，地車經常改道，老人不懂看地圖，又不懂問人，不懂得轉車，所以周末較少來老人中心。 問：在華埠及法拉盛有中文地圖，單張，通告等，這會不會對老人家有效? 朱：其實也有效，但是他們心裡覺得不放心，就不來了，在家休息一天。 問：除了唐人街以外，有沒有其他老人中心可以走走？ 朱：在布碌崙及皇后區有很多老人中心，特別在皇后區，有唐人辦的，也有老番辦的，很多會員既參加我們唐人街的，又參加皇后區的。 問：既然他們已經住皇后區的，但為什麼他們又來唐人街的老人中心？ 朱：雖然有些會員搬到皇后區及布碌崙，但很多時他們的親戚朋友都在唐人街，同時以前看的醫生都在唐人街，所以探朋友，看醫生，或買餸，都來唐人街。 問：我想問，9/11之後，你如何知道有9/11的服務？ 朱：9/11之後不久，政府成立機構，專門幫助9/11受害居民，在舊的中美銀行成立一間辦事處，登報紙﹑派單張﹑派員到老人中心﹑講解如何幫助下東城居民，提供房屋補助﹑空氣清新機﹑福利等，申請手續很方便，去舊中美銀行，柏路那裡。他們派職員來，到老人中心講解，申請，辦事，很方便。 問：你覺得那些表格難填嗎？ 朱：我們的職員時時都幫老人家填表，今次最主要展示到實質證據證明居住在下東城，需要的證據包括電話單﹑電費單﹑租單，就是足夠證據。 問：很多老人家和子女及孫兒同住，老人是否能夠提交以上證明？ 朱：後生也可以申請9/11福利。當然有老人家和子女同住，很多後生也失業，或生意一落千丈，所以成立小生意補助，幫助那些生意不好，經濟上需要支持者。 問：有沒有聽過小生意補助是否有效？ 朱：我聽人說，9/11之後生意不好，有些為小生意直接提供經濟協助，有些貸款，所以唐人街因為9/11後經濟不好而關門也不算很多。 問：你曾說你和老人家經過戰爭，所以覺得9/11也不那麼驚，你經過什麼戰亂？ 朱：第二次世界大戰時，我仍在台山鄉下，只有幾歲，那時時時聽到機關槍及槍炮聲音，家人時時帶我去避難。我們的會員有些不及我老，有些比我老，因為他們除了世界大戰外，還經過內戰，其後在共產黨統治之下，經過多次內亂。然後才到美國，所以他們說9/11事件屬於小兒科，不那麼驚惶，最擔心反而是後生失業，生意不好，令家庭經濟負擔慘重，家庭出現問題，只擔心這方面。 問：那些人家庭有什麼問題，你可否舉例？ 朱：譬如子媳失業，因而心情不好，可能與老人家產生磨擦。有些老人和子孫同住，因為失業心情不好，或許有爭拗。譬如那時有個會員未天光就跑來老人中心等開門，等關門才離開，還要到公園坐一會兒。因為子媳失業，自己住的地方狹少，在廳中睡醒後將床叠起，就要出來，很夜才回家，如果太久停留在家，兒子失業又在家，就容易起爭拗衝突。 問：有沒有辦法為這些老人家申請政府屋？ 朱：我們試過為他們申請老人屋，都要等候很久，有幸運的很快申請到。有些只發出輪候號碼。有些一申請就收到回覆，叫看房子。如果不計較那一區就比較容易，在中城要搭車比較容易。如有些會員要住在唐人街附近，則無論老人屋或政府樓，都要等候很久。 問：大概多久？是什麼原因？ 朱：因為人多，等候名單很長，尤其唐人街附近的更長。很多在第5街B大道附近的政府樓，我們有很多老人家入住。 問：如果他們要住唐人街，要等多久？5年10年？ 朱：要很多年。 問：你剛來時很多老人家是台山人或老華僑，現在有沒有轉變？會員來自那裡？ 朱：1960年代，大陸仍未開放，會員大多是台山及四邑人士。後來大陸開放，較多移民由大陸及台灣來。唐人街老人中心大部份都是廣東人，大部份講廣東話，少部份講國語。以工作的職業分，由大陸來的文化水平較老華僑高，縱然如此，他們不能找到原來的專業工作。例如華策會派來幫廚房做工的工人，其中很多是大學生﹑做工程師﹑或懂醫學，但因為在大陸的訓練不能銜接到這些，其學歷在美國不獲得承認，只能從事體力勞動的工作。 問：除了語言之外，還有其他……。 朱：是。 問：現在華埠有多少個老人中心？ 朱：現在華埠多了幾個老人中心，以前所謂華埠，只包括勿街﹑擺也街及茂比利街的範圍；過了堅尼路就算意大利區，住滿了意大利人；到包厘街那邊晚上少人行；新聲戲院那邊晚上少人行。現在華埠大了幾倍，很多會員來自東河以下及小意大利區，亦變成華人的世界。 問：新的老人中心是那幾間？， 朱：除了聯合老人中心；人瑞﹑及安老會以外，現在加入的有高雲尼醫院附近有康樂老人中心， 以前屬於老番區，現在是華埠。另耆英會以是市政府直接辦的老人中心，叫大會堂老人中心(City Hall Senior Center)當時服務西人，資格最老，現在會員絕大部份是華人會員。華埠雖然地方不大，但有幾個老人中心。 問：為什麼會員會在不同老人中心之間走來走去？ 朱：老人中心會員多數加入幾個會，因為各人口味不同。譬如吃午餐，各人口味不同。靠近茂比利街到聯合老人中心，靠近人瑞的去人瑞，以前耆英會在City Hall 附近，乘4,5,6號車的人喜歡去。還有那裡主辦的人及會員的背景相近的相聚一起，如耆英會講國語的親戚朋友聚在同一間老人中心，吸引國語人。人瑞的會員近格蘭街地鐵站上落車。有些老人喜歡聯合﹑人瑞或耆英會的餐，各適其式。同時，可供參加的活動，有些喜歡舞蹈﹑太極及粵曲，亦有喜歡我們老人中心的麻雀﹑唱戲﹑繪畫及書法，所以喜歡到處走。又譬如到我處舉辦旅行，星期六參加舞蹈，又參加耆英會各自的活動，現在的會員非常活躍，到處走。 問：近10年福州移民多了，他們也申請了父母來到這裡，你的中心是否很多福州老人會員？ 朱：我們沒有很多福州老人，只有少數，可能我們離開他們較遠，可能較多在康樂老人中心，較少在我們的中心。他們參加我們的活動時，可以和講國語的職員溝通。 問：他們是否能夠和廣東台山的會員溝通？ 朱：有些會員沒有語言區分，很視乎人的性格心理。講國語﹑講廣東話或福州話的可以一起打麻雀﹑下棋，有些相處很融洽，有些則很隔閡。 問：除了需要老人屋外，還有其他問題嗎？ 朱：房屋問題是最主要的。舊會員經濟及醫藥沒有問題，他們有退休金﹑如有困難，可申請補助金及糧食券。最有問題是新移民老人，因為申請福利比較困難，來了短時期並沒有這些福利，要先做工一段時間。所以華策會派來的老人工多是60多歲的新移民，因為沒有入息及醫藥福利的資格，因為政府政策所限，資格所限，我們也無能為力。 問：你覺得華埠能夠做什麼，來幫助這些老人家？ 朱：華埠近年來很多社區機構對這些新移民提供幫助，如中華公所﹑人力中心提供英文班或訓練班，免費入籍申請﹑福利申請，比以前較多為華人服務。 問：這為老人家或其他年齡都有？ 朱：為所有人，不分年齡。 問：你期望唐人街有什麼改變？華埠又可以如何幫助他們？ 朱：第一，我們希望興建更多低入息的住宅區。近年社會轉型，以前幾千間衣廠到現在所剩無幾，華裔女工喪失了衣廠工作的出路，現在多了一些店舖及公司，沒有特別技能的新移民少了做工的機會。我們希望人力中心或華策會提供更多的職業訓練，讓沒有技能的新移民可以受訓工作，融入社會，找到一份工作，使生活安定，才能開展其他的事。 問：多謝你，朱生。 朱：不用客氣。 （完） Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Joseph Chu 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Chris Chan Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-05-24 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation CPC/asthma Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is May 24th. I’m sitting here with Chris Chan of Chinese Progressive Association, otherwise known as CPA here on 83 Canal Street. We will talk more about the asthma-related work that CPA has done the last couple of years, but first we want to get to know you, who you are. Chris, tell us a little bit about where you’re from. Chan: Actually, I’m from Hong Kong, via Macau. Q: In Macau? Chan: Yes, I was born in China, but I moved to Macau when I was 2 years old. I grew up in Macau. After high school, I went to Hong Kong. Q: Ok. Where in China are you from and why did your family move to Macau? Chan: I’m not quite sure, but I think after the Communist took over China, my parents wanted to leave that environment. They found a way and went to Macau. I grew up in Macau and spent my childhood in Macau. Q: So this is the 60s, the 70s, what era are we talking about? Chan: (laugher) Yeah, probably around 1960, early 1970. After high school, I found a job in Hong Kong, then I moved to Hong Kong. Q: In Macau, did you go to a bilingual school? Did you study Portuguese? Chan: It was not a bilingual school, but a normal school, which was Chinese. When I was in the 10th and 11th grade, our school started having Portuguese lessons as one subject. So I did have a chance to learn some Portuguese. Q: What was your childhood in a Portuguese colony like? So you have no impression of China, obviously since you left so young? Chan: Yes, because Macau and China are really close, I do know what’s going on in China. The memory I still have of childhood: I remember everybody would send something back to China… Q: Money? Chan: Yeah, money or goods, or they would physically bring something back China for their relatives or families. That’s very common for that period. Q: After high school, you got a job in Hong Kong as what? Chan: As a construction worker (laughter). In Macau, that many businesses. The main business in China is casinos. Q: In Macau? Chan: Yes, even now, it’s still casinos. Besides that, there’s not much else you can do. So, after I graduated from high school, it was hard to find a job. Then, I had a chance to go to Hong Kong. Any job that I can find, I’d love to do it. Finally, I got a job in the construction field. Q: You mean manual labor kind of construction, as in building? Chan: Yeah, building. Hong Kong has lots of high rise buildings. At that time, the real estate was a really booming business. So it was easy to find a job. Q: This was in the 80s? Chan: This was around late 70s to early 80s. Q: So the real estate was really booming in Hong Kong at that time? Chan: Right. Right. To be a construction worker, even if you don’t have the skills, they’ll hire you and train you at the work site. Learn it and practice it. Q: In Hong Kong, why did you decide to come to America? When did you decide to come to America? Chan: In 1984. 1984, April. Q: What made you decide to come to America? Chan: I had a chance to come. My sister was already here. She was married and was able to apply for us to come. Q: So your sister sponsored you to come to America? Chan: Right. Before that, she came here to study college. After that, she got married and got citizenship and she sponsored us to come. Q: How old were you when you came? Chan: I was born in 1957. So in 1984….27? Yeah, 27. Q: So already with work experience in Hong Kong and a little bit of English. Some English skills from Hong Kong. Chan: (laughter) uh, not quite. Q: Not quite (laughter)? Chan: Because in Hong Kong, I just worked and also it’s predominantly Chinese. Most people speak Chinese. Of course in Hong Kong, English is very common, but working in the lower level, most people speak Chinese. Only a few words in English and not correct pronunciation. For me, I would consider it as no English at all. I did have difficulty when I first came here, for a period. Q: So you came straight to New York, ‘cause you already had a sister here? Chan: Right. Q: What was your impression of New York City? Chan: Um…because my sister lived in Queens. My first impression was that New York is not a modern city (laugher). Compared to Hong Kong where there’s a lot of modern building and high rises. Here, it’s all concrete buildings. Queens is almost like a suburb. And back at that time, in my area, the tallest building was six stories high (laughter). Q: What area of Queens was this? Chan: Kew Gardens. Chan: It was not what I know of New York City. But of course once I visited Manhattan, it’s different. I didn’t know Manhattan that well, because three days after I landed in New York, I found a job in Chinatown (laughter). So I just deal with my daily life in Chinatown. I didn’t have a chance to see the real face of Manhattan. Everyday, I just traveled from Kew Garden to Manhattan and go back home. That’s all. Q: What did you think you were going to do once you got to America? Chan: I didn’t have any plans. I just needed to find a job because I needed to survive. In my pocket, I had only $60 (laughter) when I came to New York. The next day, my sister showed me how to go to Chinatown. I bought a newspaper and started calling. I was really lucky. Three days later, I found a construction job in Chinatown to do renovation. Q: Is it similar to the sky scrappers you worked on in Hong Kong? Chan: Not quite. Because the wall is (sheet?) rock, it’s not cement. The structure is different, but it’s okay. I feel it’s easier for me to work. It’s just a little different than in Hong Kong. Q: So you worked for Chinese people when you came? Chan: Yeah. Q: And you didn’t have to use English too much. Chan: No, not at all. I still remember…ah…once around my house, I walked on the street and there were some Americans on that side, I was so really afraid that I walked on the other side (laughter). Q: To the other side of the street? Chan: Yeah, I was afraid to face those people. To ‘hi’ or whatever. Yeah, back at that time, I was afraid. But after about one and a half years in Chinatown, I felt that I needed to break the wall. If I decide to stay in America, I really need to learn English. I started to find those ESL classes to participate. Back at that time, I didn’t know there were any free classes, that the community provides free English classes. So I just go to those paid ESL classes. I started at the grass stage, like ABC. Q: Very basic. Chan: Yes, very basic. But back at that time. I still didn’t know where would provide those courses. Seems like none. When I went to join those classes, it was pretty advance for me. No bilingual teacher and I don’t know what’s going on, what they’re talking about (laughter). I still remember the first class I went to, three days later, I just dropped out. I totally did not know what’s going on. I can’t follow it. I tried to watch the news on TV, listen to the radio. Pick it up little by little. Once it hit me to really make my decision to spend time in English, it was two years later after I worked in Chinatown, after the payday, I really wanted to treat my brother to McDonald’s for a meal in midtown. But when I went there, I can’t order (laughter). They didn’t know what I’m talking about and I wanted to…. Q: This is two years after you arrived in America? Chan: Yeah, I wanted to order a Big Mac and french fries. I kept saying ‘potato chips’ and they said ‘we don’t have it.’ Later on, we just went back to Chinatown and had dinner. After that, I really think how I can live in America for two years and I can’t go to McDonald’s to have my meal? That’s a real shame for myself. It really gave me great encourage to find ways to learn English. Q: So two years into living in New York City and you cannot order a Big Mac and french fried meal at McDonald’s and you felt very bad…. Chan: Yeah, very bad. Q: And you decided to study, I mean really study English. Chan: I spent time from class to class, school to school, read newspapers. And some friends introduce me to where there are classes and if it fits into my schedule, I go. It took me a long time to overcome. Q: So you were still working as a construction worker in Chinatown during all this time? Chan: No, after I decided to learn English, I quit my job and found a warehouse job in midtown with an American company. I tried to get out of the Chinese community and tried to force myself into an English environment to pick up English. Q: What did you do at this warehouse? Chan: It was a fabric warehouse. Textile. They had different designers in their company and make those textiles and they will print and ship it to the warehouse. The other companies would go there to get the materials. My job was to cut the textile to them, how many yards they need and keep the records. A lot of tons of different designs, pattern by pattern. Q: Did that job force you to speak English? Chan: Yes. Yes. It was getting better. Later on, I changed a few times. But still, I finally came back to construction. I was familiar with that. Q: The first time you came to Chinatown, those first two years, what was your impression of Chinatown? Chan: Chinatown, at that time for me, was an enclosed separate area from outside. That’s what I feel. In Chinatown, you don’t need to speak any English. You can survive purely in Chinese. You can make your living and everything just speaking Chinese. At that time, I thought Chinatown was pretty old. The stores and restaurant, the food that was served was in old style. And the products sold in Chinatown were old in style too. In Hong Kong, you will see new things. In Hong Kong, it’s different, there’s lots of new products from different countries are flown in Hong Kong to test the market. In Chinatown, the feeling is like back in the 16th century! Q: Very far behind Hong Kong. Chan: Yeah, right. Q: You felt comfortable in Chinatown? Chan: Yes. People are friendly. A lot of Chinese are willing to help each other. That’s how I felt. Q: You didn’t know anyone here besides your sister? Chan: No. I did join a church in Chinatown (laugher). So I very quickly established some friendship in the church. Q: How long did you work in the warehouse before you found your way to CPA? Chan: The warehouse I only worked for about a year, then I switched to another job. I had a chance to find another job as an architect, prospective drawing. It was a Taiwanese company. They needed an assistant to draw the prospectives. I loved drawing ever since I was in Macau. I learned how to do it at that company. I spent one and a half year at that company. Later on, I had another chance to work in a development company as a construction development. A lot of Chinese people will buy houses, knock it down and build 3, 6 story buildings. I had a chance to work there. Later on, I started my own business as a construction company. In 1999, since real estate was not that active, I closed my company and went back to school. Q: At what point did you become active at CPA? Chan: Since 1989, the June 4th event after that. Not long after that, I went to City College. The first college I went was LaGuardia College. Since I was back in school and closed my company, I needed a part time job. Somebody told me that CPA had an opening for a community organizer and I just sent in my resume and started working at CPA in 1992. Q: Before that, did you participate in any community activity at all? Chan: I was active in the church. It was not exactly community work, but helping church members. Back to the June 4th event, I was really active in those and had a chance to know about different organizations. I started getting more interested and know more about community services. So I (became) interested in this direction. Q: So this is really different from construction work. Chan: Really different (chuckles). Totally different. I work in CPA, I love it. After I graduated in college—my major is art and computer graphics. Q: What do you like about working at CPA? Chan: CPA as a grassroots organization provides direct service to the community. It gives me a chance to really see the community and also understand their issues, problems. We can get hands-on experience on how to help them. You can see the results, how your work can reshape the community. That’s gives me a deep impact. Q: What are some of the services that CPA offers to the community? Chan: CPA has a number of services to the community. First is immigration rights. We have a citizenship program to help people who qualify or want to know about citizenship and procedure. We handle cases and do the follow up too. We provide English classes, citizen class. We do handle cases and also educate them about how and what they can do. Besides that, CPA is concerned with environmental issues. The Chinatown area has a lot of environmental problems, so CPA is really concerned about that and educate the community. For example, we’re concerned about lead poisoning for those old buildings. Chinatown has a lot of old buildings. Chinese people do not understand this issue, but this one you can protect if you know what’s going on. You can protect yourself. You won’t get hurt. Also the asthma issue and smoking. Smoking in the Chinese community is really popular. Youth smokers are increasing. We try to stress this in the community, especially the teenagers about smoking and second smoke. Q: Let’s talk about one of the studies you did you, I think in 2001? Chan: 2002. Q: 2002, you surveyed 580 people? Chan: Yes. Q: In the Chinatown area. Tell us about that study. And where exactly were the borders? What areas did you survey? Chan: Since 1996, EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) released a report for diesel population in the Manhattan area. The report indicates that Canal Street is one of the higher polluted streets in the city. We think this is a really serious issue. We also know that CPA members and friends have asthma issues. That’s why CPA wants to find out more about the asthma issue in Chinatown area. Before that, we did some report, and got the statistics from DOH. The statistics show that the Chinatown area asthma situation for children is very low… Q: Very low? Chan: yes, very low. Of course this is the hospitalized rate. They get the data based on who has asthma attacks and has stayed in hospital overnight and they got this data. In Chinese community, not that many people would go to the hospital and would stay overnight. Q: Where did you get this statistic? Chan: DOH. Department of Health. We feel that this only shows a part of the situation. Also after 911, pollution is even worse. That’s why we have decided to do the asthma survey to find out the real face in the Chinatown area. We grouped a lot of volunteers together and researched the survey. We went out on the streets, in the park, library, and different places in the Chinatown area to do the survey. Some surveys, we can’t count it because some people that we interviewed were not living in the Chinatown area. Some of the surveys we can’t use it. Finally, we surveyed 580 families all over the Chinatown area, not in any one specific area. We found out that we saw a surprise. According to statistics, (in a) five family household, already has at least one member with asthma in the household. Q: How did you conduct the survey? Is it just randomly asking people on the street in different public places? Did you give people a breathing test? What did you do exactly? Chan: Random pick…. Q: Of questionnaires? Chan: We spent about three months up setting up the questionnaires. Q: Give me a sample of a few questions that were on this. How do you determine if someone has asthma or not? Chan: In our survey, first we ask them where does the person live? Also, do you have a breathing problem? Do they diagnosis asthma by a doctor and when? We ask such questions. Q: Is your study carried out in the same or similar way that EPA does that when they came out with the statistic that Chinatown is more polluted than other areas in New York City. How did they get that information? Is there a similar method that you both use? Do you know how they do it? Chan: I forgot. When we set up the questionnaire, we got the example from, I think, the DOH and the EPA, those example. Q: You modified it? Chan: Yes, we modified it. Mount Sinai Hospital also conducted their own research too. We got the different ways and compared them and set up our own sample. Q: There are lots of non profit organizations in Chinatown, why did CPA stand out and do this? Chan: Actually I don’t know why, but it seems in the Chinatown area, we all should be concerned with environmental issue, but maybe because of funding or not that many people feel that it’s a serious issue because asthma, lead poisoning, and smoking does not have immediate effects on health. They have long term effect, not immediate. We know that these are serious issues, and we also know that asthma, lead poisoning and smoking can be controlled. If you know what’s going on, you can project yourself. Q: Did you make a point of studying people of all different ages? You said that 580 families were surveyed, from elders to kids? Chan: Right. If the kids were under 16 years old, we’d leave them out of the survey. The survey is for 16 and up. We went to the senior centers also to conduct survey the elders. During the survey process, we found out that not that many people understand the asthma issue, especially the elders. Most elders have the concept that asthma is a children’s problems. “Don’t worry about it. You don’t need to do anything. If they grow up, the asthma will be automatically gone.” Something along those lines. They think if you have asthma, just do some sports, jogging, run, or swim, make your body stronger and the asthma will be gone. That kind of concept. Most of them also believe that over-the-counter medicine can cure asthma if you take it consistently over a period of time, it will be gone. Q: So it sounds there are two things here that your study shows: one is the environmental factors within Chinatown, the air quality itself… Chan: Yes. Q: Secondly, it’s asthma and those two things are related. But for example, you mentioned elders. I imagine that because a lot of them come from China, where smoking is very a normal habit for men. And depending on where they live, if they live near a factory or in a big city like Guangzhou where the pollution is very bad, a lot of these people may have come with already a foundation for asthma, you cannot really show that they got asthma in Chinatown. Do you understand what I’m asking? How much of the problem is created here in Chinatown and how much is carried over from say China and personal health? Chan: That’s a good question actually (laughter). In our statistic, 51.1% of asthma sufferers are teenagers. As a whole, asthma patients are 1/3 of their diagnosis of asthma is since they moved into the Chinatown area. That means that before they came to the U.S., before they came to New York, they did not diagnosis anything, but since they moved into Chinatown, especially after 911, they have breathing problems. Those symptoms came up more serious. It might be as you said, carried over from their homeland. But the facts have shown us that after September 11, the whole is getting worse. That’s the facts we saw. Q: The last study that was done before 911 was in 1996 by EPA? Chan: Yes. But that one only showed diesel pollution. It’s not the whole thing, the air quality. But after September 11, I’d like to say it’s a really serious issue. I work in Chinatown. That day, I was in Chinatown. After that, I didn’t come to Chinatown for just one day. I continued to come to Chinatown everyday. I still remember I can smell the smell from the air even after Thanksgiving. Q: So we’re talking about two months. Chan: The first two, three weeks was terrible. Even with closed windows, everywhere, there was strong, weird smell in the air. Q: Do you remember if the EPA did any studies, pollution studies, at that time in Chinatown as a direct result of September 11 being so near…the World Trade Center being so near Chinatown? Chan: I heard, but I’m not sure if I remember. Yes, they did, but not in the Chinatown area. Also, after 911, people were only concerned with Chinatown from the south of Canal Street. I feel this is really funny (laughter) because what’s the difference with this boundary, the air is free flow. Actually, our office location is north of Canal. But still I can smell it everyday. Q: So because you are by location, north of Canal, were you eligible for air filters or any of the 911 fundings? Chan: No. No (laughter). Q: So CPA as an organization, because of your location, did not get any 911 money? Chan: No. No. Q: Then how did you fund the asthma study? Chan: I forgot the fund, but it’s a very small grant. Q: So it was a private grant? Chan: I think it was a private grant. CPA is mostly funded by private foundations. Government funds, we did not get that much because we are not a big organization even though we do a lot of quality work for the community. Since the budget cut from the government, we really have a hard time getting funding. We have funding for an English class right now that provides free English class. But this funding is not a 911 funding. It was from before. CPA did not get 911 funding for job training, English classes… Q: The technical boundaries for the area that is considered Chinatown that is eligible for air filters and fundings and all that is between Canal and Pike? Is that what it is? Chan: In that area and below. As for filters, later on, if you’re eligible, you can get it at home. Q: Regardless of where you are? Chan: As long as you got affected by the air. I know that a lot of people who live in Brooklyn’s Sunset part area also got it. Q: (interruption)…Chinatown was just polluted because of the traffic. We have the Manhattan Bridge, not so far the Brooklyn Bridge. It’s just a lot of traffic congestion in this area. Diesel pollution, you were talking about earlier. So Chinatown was already bad long before 911. Has the EPA or any other environmental organizations do anything to clean up the air here? What to your knowledge has been done to address this problem? Chan: From what I know, right now the government is not doing that much in the Chinatown area. Right now, it’s getting worse because of 911 effected the air quality and the tour buses. These private companies have tour buses that go to Boston, Washington, Philadelphia… Q: On East Broadway? Chan: Yeah, on East Broadway. And the casino buses on Bowery. The big tucks and big buses. Also, the bridge has non-stop construction. A lot of repairs on Canal Street. Constructions, tour buses, diesel trucks still go through the Manhattan Bridge…. Q: So all these things have nothing to do with 911? These things are just in Chinatown already? Chan: It’s just getting worse. After 911, it’s just like coincidence. Just the whole Chinatown area is getting worse, the air quality. Getting worse and worse. Q: When you did the study, it was over how long of a period? Chan: We conducted in 2002 Spring and had the final results in 2002 August. Q: So just in 6 months? Did you go back to the same families? How did you collect the information? Chan: We didn’t do that much follow up because of manpower and we don’t have any money to do the follow up job. Right now, we’re developing an asthma project this is on- going in the Chinatown community. CPA has plans to do this better. The first thing is to do more education. Second thing is to improve the environment. The third thing is air quality monitoring. In these three directions, we’re working on. Right now, we’re applying for some grants and see if we can have funding to do it. It would be in these three directions. Q: Education meaning educating the community, to let the residents and business, people who work and live here know what’s going on in their environment. So with the results of this study, what have you done with it? How is that used towards getting more attention or meetings with councilmen? How are you approaching on a government level so that changes can be made to address these problems? Chan: On a government level, we’d like to see improvement of the environment. We just had some brainstorming. For example, this summer, we worked with other groups, we’d like to make a video documentary to give a rough idea of the Chinatown area air pollution. We work with a group of teenagers, give them training about this issue and what idea they come up with. We hope the 10 minute documentary tape is a tour in the Chinatown area to address those environmental issues. We also have another idea, we haven’t got a concrete idea because we have a core group to develop that. Another idea is tree count in the Chinatown area and compare that with environmentally healthy communities, things like how much green areas. If we got this done, the second step is we’d send it to the councilmen. Q: In your study, it was mainly for asthma. You didn’t do environmental study in terms of what is in the air besides diesel after 911? Chan: The air monitoring actually we’re getting information. We’ve already contacted field organizations that’s doing the monitoring. But it really involves technical stuff and professionals. We have ideas to work with some university professors and Phd projects to see if they have interest in finding out the air quality in the Chinatown area. But we definitely know that is not enough. That only one monitoring station on top of the post office. Q: That’s what we have right now? Chan: Yes, right now, that’s all we have. The street levels don’t have it. We’re going to do more research and see which groups are interested to do street level air quality. Q: Seems to me that there are two ways, if any changes is going to come out of this. Things like traffic, and all that, that’s the city government level. But things like the tour buses, that’s a Chinese business community level. That’s not the government saying you have to park there. That’s business people who are Chinese. So do you make any efforts to approach those groups and say maybe they have to park their buses somewhere else, cause they are also contributing to the air quality problem in Chinatown. Chan: Definitely. After we get more job done, we’d like to contact them, those business organizations and see what they can help to improve that. As for the government level, maybe after more study, we may have suggestions on which streets should turn into a one way. Those diesel trucks should detour and not go directly through Canal. But we need to do more work before we can say that. Q: Do you think those business people are going to care? Those tour bus company on East Broadway and those casino buses, do you think they will care that in some way they’re contributing to the pollution problem in Chinatown? Or they care just about the business? Chan: Yes, they do care about the business. But if we can find a better solution to accomplish their business and also care about the environment, that will help the tours and the community business also. It must have some mutual benefits. But if nobody see or find this mutual area, of course the situation won’t change a bit. If we spend time and research to find this mutually benefit area, it might happen. Q: After talking to many people in the Chinatown community, I always get the feeling that they feel the government level, the city level, is not paying enough attention to Chinatown, especially after 911. But it also seems to me that the community is not really looking after itself in many ways. Chan: In my personal opinion, those business organizations, they work their own. Or they’re only concerned with how to make the business grow instead of environment. But they do know that the bad smell, especially in the summer, everybody knows that that is a bad thing for tourism. I’d like to point out that our neighbor across one street, Little Italy, they have restaurants next to each other on the whole street, but they don’t have that smell. What did they do? How come they can do that? If we can improve it… Q: Are you saying that Italian restaurant owners, maybe they work together better in some way than the Chinese? Chan: I don’t know. I think somebody else should do some research. How do they handle the garbage? How do they keep the streets clean? How do they run their business without that bad smell (laughter)? After we study it, then we can see if Chinatown can adopt it. Can Chinatown do that? I think they will see that it’s good for them that if they put a little extra effort, or pay a little more attention, they can make the environment (better) and get rid of that smell. I think they’d do that because that deals with the business issue. If the front door is clean and has no smell, of course more people would come. (Tape change. Interruption) Q: You were saying that you were impressed with how Little Italy, who is on the same streets, Mulberry and Mott, just one block over, manages to not have the same smell that Chinatown does (laughter). I’m going to ask you something that sounds almost unethical, do you think Chinese people take pride in their environment? Because if you look at China, would you say that Chinatown is in some way a smaller scale, a small replica of China, of the way people live? Of the way people do business? The way people interact with each other? Walking through the streets, I see that many vendors have no problem just pouring everything onto the streets. Just dumping everything, all the trash onto the street. In many ways, do Chinese really look after their environment? Chan: I’d like to say that they don’t have such concepts. That’s why we need to educate them. I think the Chinese people, the character, they don’t like to be dirty. But they don’t know what to do. No body can set up a model for them. I’d like to pick Hong Kong as a model. I remember, back in the 60s, there was a lot of garbage on the streets. But the government had a movement that encouraged people to keep the streets clean. They even created a cartoon character, a garbage bug. Then the city changed. Then people know that that’s good. In Chinatown, no body takes action, ring up the bell and take this issue seriously. Q: You think education is one part, that they don’t understand the impact their actions can have on the environment, on the pollution. Chan: Yes. They don’t have the plans to tell them what to do. Not only to educate them about the concept of keeping the environment clean is good for them, but what to do and how do it. Personally, I’ve been wondering, just across the street, Little Italy is a totally different area. We can spend time and study and see how Chinatown can adopt it or find a better way to do it. Q: Is there any dialogue with the Little Italy community to see how they keep things cleaner? Chan: I didn’t work in this field, so I don’t know personally. But I do know there are groups who are really concerned about the environment, not only us, like Clean Up Chinatown. They formed this group as a special concern group of street cleaning in Chinatown. Probably they would better than me. Q: I think I read in your studies that one of the causes is cockroaches. Chan: Yes. Q: As we know, Chinatown has a lot of restaurants and lots of homes above restaurants and it’s impossible to keep those buildings cockroach free whenever you have restaurants below. Do you think there’s a connection between the number of asthma sufferers in Chinatown and the fact that so much of Chinatown relies of restaurant business? Chan: I don’t know. I won’t say that it’s related because the trigger for each asthma patient may be different. It’s not only the cockroaches that trigger or smell. Sometimes, it may be smoking. Sometimes maybe perfumes. No matter what, I would like to say that it contributes to the pollution in the environment. Also this one can be controlled and can be changed. Q: Cockroaches can be controlled? Is that what you mean? Chan: No, the whole. Yep. Even the cockroaches can be, to a certain extent (laughter). They just need to pay a little more attention. It’s possible to do it. Q: You said in your survey that you found one out of five people…. Chan: Households. One out of five households. Q: Or one person out of five household? Chan: No. Five families has one family. Q: One family out of five. Chan: Yes, at least in the household has one who suffers from asthma. Q: And this is much higher than what the Department of Health defines as asthma sufferer, which is someone who has been hospitalized overnight. You’re saying that a lot of Chinese people suffer from asthma, but they don’t spend time in a hospital. Chan: Because Chinese has the habit of relying on over-the-counter medicines, which are imported from China. Q: Or maybe herbal medicine? Chan: Yeah, maybe herbal medicine. In those Chinese drugstores, you can find different medicine for head to toe. It would cover your whole body (laughter). Even if you lost your hair, take this one, or whatever. You name it, they have it. Whether it works or not, it’s hard to say. Most Chinese would take them. That’s a habit dating back to China. If they have a problem, the first thing is they would go to the drugstore, instead of going to a doctor. They go to the drugstore to find modern or herbal medicine to cure that part of the problem, and if that doesn’t work, then try another few things. If afterwards, they keep getting worse and worse, then they have no choice but to go to the doctor. So the doctor for them is not a priority. The priority is those over-the-counter medicine. Q: There is a perception then for Chinese people that asthma is not as serious as it is. Something that they think will just go away when they get older. Chan: Yes. So they don’t treat asthma as a serious issue, like smoking. Everybody smokes, what’s the big deal? Why make it sound like a monster? We need to change the concept. We also work on smoking. Most people don’t know that just one cigarette contains how many substances. If they know that it contains over 4,000 chemicals that would harm their body, I think they would deeply think would they want to pick up a cigarette and light it up? They don’t have a chance to know. That’s why we take education as a first step. Q: To your knowledge, does the EPA or other agencies, conducting air quality or air pollution studies in Chinatown on a continuous basis to see if after September 11 rally has introduced some new unknown elements in the air in this area? Chan: From my memory, I don’t know. The EPA did a study on air quality, but they did not release any data. Q: Aside from CPA, which is a small organization, aside from what you’re doing on your own, what else do you think, what can the EPA do better? What can other organizations do to address this problem? This is a major problem in this area that I think requires a lot of groups working together to deal with it, from the traffic to cleaning….a whole lot of things combined. Chan: CPA is taking steps to work with other groups. Hopefully this connection will grow. Get more organizations involved, interested in this area and issues. CPA does not work on our own, but we try to cooperate with other organizations. For example, CPA worked with six different hospitals, work together and let them know about the concerns of Chinatown. We’d also like to work with bigger groups, like the coalitions, see if they’re interested and help on it. Q: It would be interesting now, over two years later since 911, to be able to track and see if…well, we know the air quality has certainly gotten worse since 911, but you really don’t have a clear idea whether there’s a lot more asthma victims or what other potential health issues could result from the collapse of the World Trade Center. Chan: So far, no. We do a lot of work, but because we’re small in manpower, the whole picture is still a fog. In order to get a clear picture, we need to get more organizations involved. That’s what we hope and are working on. Q: How aware do you think or how concerned is the average Chinese person in Chinatown about all of this? If you’re a new immigrant, you come to America or New York, most likely you’ll come to Chinatown, probably for work or something else. Do you think they think “Ah, the air is bad there, maybe I shouldn’t live there?” Do you think that crosses an average Chinese person’s mind? Chan: No. Our location is on Canal and close to East Broadway, that’s where a lot of new immigrants, like the Fujianese, live. We work with a lot of Fujianese, documented and undocumented. The first thing in their mind is totally not environmental issue. They need to struggle for their living, so the first thing is to make money. How to settle down, get a better life. A very common issue is they send their kids back to the homeland in China in order for the mother to be able to work. That’s a very sad story. Their main concern is how to make money and how to make more money (laughter). There’s a lot of sad stories. The environmental problems do not cross their mind, but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t tell them. We try our best, through different channels, to educate them. At least how to protect themselves in their daily lives. Q: Give us a few examples of how people here can protect themselves. One, obviously is to not smoke. Chan: For example, they didn’t know that smoking is that harmful and second hand smoke too. They don’t have such concept, because in China, it’s not a big deal. Everybody does it, at home or whatever. So we tell them the real situation. We ask them if they really need to smoke, if they do, then at least leave the room. If they (smokers) can’t, then you leave the room. Also, lead poisoning, especially in old buildings, they should know don’t open the fire escape windows. The window shields, peeling paints, you should pay more attention. The cockroach problems that you mentioned before, they just need to pay a little more attention. The two bridges in Chinatown, Manhattan and Williamsburg, have heavy lead dust in that area. People who live around that area should pay more attention. Don’t open the window. Use air filters or air conditioning at home. Q: It sounds like you have a lot more work to do. First step is you need to get funding to continue the studies. Then once you have all the results, you’re hoping to connect with various groups within Chinatown, as well as city and government levels. Chan: Right now, CPA is a member for different mainstream coalitions. For example, New York Immigration Coalitions, Asian American Federations, and New York Stop Smoking Coalitions. We’d like to bring the different groups together and hopefully in the future solve the problems in the Chinatown area. Q: Okay, it sounds like you have a lot of work ahead of you (laughter). I wish you much luck with all of that. Chan: Actually, it’s not just me doing it or CPA doing it. CPA has a lot of volunteers. I’d like to give a high credit to those volunteers, from the English class, to the citizenship class, to the environmental issues. Every time, those volunteer contribute their time, they really care about the community, they work together and get the job done. Q: We’ll talk about one last thing. There been various hearings about the system of the streets set up by the EPA, if you’re above Canal Street, you don’t get certain aides. Can you just give me an idea if this is a silly idea? It obviously doesn’t work to section off areas that way. Chan: Right, definitely. EPA right now is very good with providing free home testings for those effected by 911 to check their homes’ air quality. But it’s not enough. As you said, it’s only below Canal Street. It cuts Chinatown in half. Q: And air flows everywhere (laughter). Chan: Right. It’s good, but not enough. Personally, I feel more. Not more free home tests. It’s like taking aspirin for a headache. It doesn’t really treat the main source. The main thing is outside, the air quality. I hope EPA thinks more about the outside quality. How to improve the area. The Chinatown area is largest residential area close to Ground Zero. Not only Chinese live in this area, but mixed people. The residents who live in this area is the frontier victims from 911. Those funding should be more concerned about this area or do more. But how to do and what to do, I think they should study more. Like some streets can be blocked totally for walking. No commercial traffic in residential area. I think this may help the pollution. The whole traffic system can be re-planned in the Chinatown area. Right now, the population is growing. No matter what, they should do more study and find a better solution for this area. Q: It’s going to be very challenging I’m sure ‘cause all these problems did not happen over night. It’ll take a lot of efforts from a lot of organizations to make some good and permanent changes. I thank you and CPA for taking an active role and getting people to be more educated and doing your part. Thank you personally for your time and CPA for the work that you’re doing. Is there anything else you’d like to add that we have not talked about? Chan: No. No (light laugher). Q: Thank you very much. My name is Lan Trinh. [end of session] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：今天是5月24日。我與Chris Chan在Canal街83號中國進步協會（Chinese Progressive Association），即CPA。待會兒，我們要進一步談一下近幾年來CPA在哮喘病方面所做的工作，但首先我們想瞭解一下你本人的情況。Chris，請跟我們講一下你是從哪里來的。 陳：實際上，我來自香港，和澳門。 問：澳門？ 陳：是的，我出生在中國，但在我2歲的時候，我隨家人移居到澳門。我在澳門長大。在那裏上完高中之後，我去了香港。 問：好的。你來自中國哪里？爲什么你家人要搬去澳門？ 陳：我不是非常清楚，但我想在共產黨佔領中國之後，我父母想要離開那個環境。他們就想辦法去了澳門。我在澳門長大，並在那裏度過了我的童年。 問：六、七十年代，那大約是什麽時代的事情？ 陳：（笑）是的，大概在1960年左右，1970年初。高中畢業之後，我在香港找到一份工作，於是就去了香港。 問：你在澳門有沒有上雙語學校？你有沒有學葡萄牙語？ 陳：我去的不是雙語學校，只是普通的學校，中文學校。在我上到10年級、11年級的時候，我們學校開設了葡萄牙語課。因此，我確實有機會學了些葡萄牙語。 問：你在葡萄牙殖民地的童年是什么樣子的？顯然，你對中國沒有絲毫印象，因爲你離開的時候還很小？ 陳：因爲澳門和中國非常近，我確實知道中國發生的事情。我仍然有些童年的記憶：我記得大家都把一些東西寄回到中國。 問：錢？ 陳：是的，錢和物品，或者他們會自己帶一些東西回中國給他們的親戚或家人，這在那個時期很普遍。 問：高中畢業之後，你在香港找到一份什麽樣的工作？ 陳：建築工人（笑聲）。澳門有很多生意。在中國最主要的生意是賭場。 問：在澳門？ 陳：是的，直到現在，仍然是賭場業。除此之外，沒有其他的事情可做。因此，高中畢業之後，我很難找到工作。後來，我有一次去香港的機會。任何工作我都會去做。最後，我在建築領域中找到一份工作。 問：你是說體力勞動，像建樓房？ 陳：是的，建樓房。香港有很多高樓。那個時候，房地産業非常繁榮。因此，幹這個比較容易找工作。 問：那是在八十年代？ 陳：七十年代末到八十年代初。 問：那個時候，香港的房地産非常繁榮？ 陳：是的。是的。你即使沒有做過建築工人，他們也會雇你，在工地培訓你。你學了之後就可以練習。 問：到了香港之後，你爲什么又決定來美國？你是什麽時候決定來美國的？ 陳：1984年4月。 問：因爲什么你決定來美國？ 陳：我有機會過來。我姐姐已經在這裏了。她結了婚，能夠把我們申請過來。 問：你是說你姐姐申請你來美國的？ 陳：是的。在我來之前，她來這裏上大學。後來就結婚了。獲得公民身份之後就申請我們過來了。 問：你來的時候有多大年紀？ 陳：我於1957年出生。1984年是…27歲？對，是27歲。 問：你那時在香港已經有了一些工作經驗，稍懂英文。在香港學了些英文。 陳：（笑聲）並非如此。 問：不是嗎（笑聲）？ 陳：因爲在香港，我只是做工，基本上都是講中文。大多數人都講中文。當然在香港，英文很普及，但大多數做低級工作的人還是講中文。只是講些英文單詞，而且也不是標準發音。對於我來講，我認爲那根本不是英文。我到這裏之後很長一段時間都不適應。 問：那你是直接來到紐約的，因爲你姐姐已經在這裏了？ 陳：是的。 問：你對紐約市的印象如何？ 陳：因爲我姐姐住在皇后區。我對紐約的第一印象是：紐約不是一個現代化的城市（笑）。與有很多現代建築物和高樓大廈的香港相比。這裏都是水泥樓房。皇后區幾乎像個郊區一樣。那個時候，我家附近最高的樓房只有六層（笑聲）。 問：皇后區哪里？ 陳：Kew Gardens。紐約市並不都是這樣。當然去了曼哈頓之後就知道不全是這樣的。我對曼哈頓不是非常熟悉，因爲在我來到紐約後的第三天，我在唐人街找到一份工作（笑聲）。因此，我一直都待在唐人街。 沒有機會看真正的曼哈頓。我只是每天從Kew Garden到曼哈頓上班，然後回家。僅此而已。 問：你當時有沒有想到了美國之後做什么？ 陳：我沒有任何計劃。我只是想找一份工作，因爲我要生存。我來紐約的時候，口袋裏只有60塊錢（笑聲）。第二天，我姐姐告訴我怎樣去唐人街。我買了份報紙，開始打電話。我非常幸運。三天之後，我在唐人街找到一份做裝修的工作。 問：是不是類似於你在香港建的高樓大廈？ 陳：不是的。因爲這裏的牆壁是用岩石做的，不是水泥。結構不同，但還算可以。我覺得工作要容易一些。只是和在香港不太一樣。 問：那你來的時候是爲華人做工？ 陳：是的。 問：你用不著講太多英文？ 陳：是的，根本不需要。我還記得…有一次我在我家附近的街上走，對面有一些美國人，我就很害怕在那邊走（笑聲）。 問：在街的對面？ 陳：是的，我害怕見那些人。講“Hi”或什么的。是的，在那個時候，我很害怕。但在唐人街待了大約一年半之後，我感到我必須要打破這個界限。如果我決定要呆在美國，我必須要學英文。 我於是開始去那些ESL班練習。在那個時候，我不知道有免費課程，社區提供免費英語課程。於是，我就去那些付費的ESL班。我從最基礎的學起，像ABC字母。 問：非常基礎的。 陳：是的，非常基礎的。但那個時候，我還不知道哪里有那些課程。一直找不到。上課的時候，我根本聽不懂。沒有雙語的教師，我不知道是怎麽回事，他們在講什麽（笑聲）。我還記得我去的第一個班，三天之後，我就沒再去了。我完全不知道課的內容是什么。我跟不上。我試著看電視新聞，聽電臺廣播，一點一點地學。有一天我的確下定決心要花時間學英文。那是我在唐人街工作了兩年之後，在一次發了薪水之後，我確實想請我弟弟到中城麥當勞吃一頓飯。但當我去到那裏的時候，我不會點菜（笑聲）。他們不知道我在講什麽，我想… 問：那時你來美國也有兩年多了？ 陳：是的，我想要巨無霸和薯條。我不停地說“土豆片”，他們說“我們沒有”。後來，我們只好回到唐人街吃飯。在那之後，我就想爲什麽我在美國生活了兩年後還不能去麥當勞吃飯？那對我是個恥辱。這確實激勵我要努力學習英文。 問：在紐約市生活了兩年後，你還不能在麥當勞點巨無霸和薯條，你覺得這很不好… 陳：是的，不好。 問：於是，你決定要學習，我是說認真學習英文。 陳：我上了很多班，去了很多學校，看報紙。一些朋友告訴我哪里有課上，如果我有時間也會去的。我花了很長一段時間才開始入門。 問：那你在這期間仍然在唐人街做建築工人？ 陳：沒有，在決定要認真學習英語之後，我就辭職了，在中城一家美國倉庫公司找到一份工作。我想儘量離開華人社區，迫使自己去一個英文的環境學英文。 問：你在這家倉庫做什么？ 陳：這是一家堆放紡織品的倉庫。紡織品。他們公司有很多設計師，製造紡織品，做好之後就把成品送到倉庫裏面。其他公司會去那裏拿材料。我的工作是按照他們需要的碼數把紡織品切好給他們，並做記錄。他們有很多不同的設計，款式。 問：你做那份工作需不需要講英文？ 陳：需要。我的英文有了進步。後來，我又換了幾個工作。但最後還是回到建築這一行。我對這個比較熟悉。 問：在你剛來唐人街的時候，在頭兩年，你對唐人街的印象如何？ 陳：那個時候，唐人街對於我來講是與外界隔絕的一個區域。這是我的感覺。在唐人街，你用不著講英文。你完全可以講中文生存。你講中文什麽事情都可以做。那個時候，我覺得唐人街很古老。那些商店和餐館，食物都是古老的風格。 在唐人街賣的商品也是古老風格的。在香港，你看到的都是新的東西。香港跟這裏不同，那裏有從各個國家運來的新産品，試探香港的市場。在唐人街，你會感到回到了16世紀！ 問：遠遠落後於香港。 陳：是的，沒錯。 問：你覺得在唐人街生活習不習慣？ 陳：習慣。人們很友好。許多華人願意相互幫助。這是我的感覺。 問：除了你姐姐之外，你在這裏不認識其他人嗎？ 陳：不會。我有加入唐人街的教會（笑）。因此，我很快在教會交了一些朋友。 問：在去CPA之前，你在倉庫公司做了多久？ 陳：我只在那裏做了一年，然後又找了另外一份工作。我有機會做建築師，畫透視圖。那是個臺灣公司。他們需要助手幫助畫透視圖。我在澳門的時候就喜歡畫圖。於是，我在那個公司學畫圖。我在那裏待了一年半。後來，我又去了一個發展公司做建築開發。很多華人要買房，把原有的房子拆了之後，再建三層或六層的樓房。我在那裏也做過。後來，我自己開建築公司。1999年，因爲房地産市場不太好，我關閉了公司，又回到了學校。 問：你是什麽時候開始在CPA做事的？ 陳：1989年，六四事件之後。在那之後不久，我去了城市學院。我去的第一所學校是LaGuardia學院。因爲我開始上學，而且又關閉了我的公司，我需要打一份散工。有人跟我講，說CPA在找一個社區組織者。於是，我就遞了我的簡歷，並於1992年開始在CPA工作。 問：在此以前，你有沒有參加過什么社區活動嗎？ 陳：我有參加過教會的活動。其實也算不上是社區工作，只是幫助其他教友。但在六四事件期間，我的確非常積極，並且有機會接觸到不同的組織。我開始變得更加感興趣，並且更加瞭解社區服務了。因此，我對這方面産生了興趣。 問：這跟搞建築不一樣。 陳：確實很不一樣（輕聲地笑）。完全不同。我喜歡在CPA工作。學院畢業之後---我的專業是藝術和電腦圖形。 問：你喜歡在CPA工作的哪些方面？ 陳：作爲一個基層組織，CPA直接向社區提供服務。它使我有機會瞭解社區，以及那裏的問題。我們能夠獲得如何幫助社區的第一手經驗。你可以看到結果，看到你的工作會給社區帶來怎樣的變化。這給了我很深的影響。 問：CPA向社區提供的服務包括哪些？ 陳：CPA向社區提供一系列服務。首先是移民權利。我們有一個入籍專案，幫助那些符合條件或想瞭解入籍以及入籍程式的人。我們受理一些申請，並做些跟進的工作。我們開設了英文課和 入籍班。我們自己做案子，並向他們提供資訊，教他們如何處理相關事務。除此之外，CPA還負責一些環保的問題。唐人街地區存在很多環保問題，因此CPA非常關心這些，並且對社區進行教育。比如，我們關心那些舊樓房鉛中毒的問題。唐人街有很多舊樓房。華人並不瞭解這些，但如果你知道了，你能有意識地保護這些舊樓房。你能保護你自己。使自己不會受到傷害。還有哮喘病和吸煙問題。在華人社區，吸煙非常普遍。越來越多的青少年吸煙。我們試圖在社區裏強調這個問題，尤其是青少年吸煙和被動吸煙。 問：我們談一下你所做的研究，我想是在2001年？ 陳：2002年。 問：在2002年，你對580個人進行了調查？ 陳：是的。 問：那是在唐人街地區。跟我們講一下那個調查。調查的確切範圍在哪里？你調查了哪些區域？ 陳：自從1996年以來，EPA（環境保護局）公佈了一份曼哈頓地區汽油污染情況的報告。報告顯示Canal街是全市污染最嚴重的街道之一。我們認爲這是一個非常嚴重的問題。我們也知道一些CPA成員以及他們的朋友患有哮喘病。因此，CPA想要查明唐人街地區哮喘病的發病情況。在此之前，我們做過一些報告，有DOH的統計。該統計顯示唐人街地區兒童哮喘病患病率很低… 問：很低？ 陳：是的，非常低。當然這是指住院率。這些資料來源於醫院對患哮喘病和住院病人的記錄。在華人社區，很多人不會去醫院看病，也不去住院。 問：你是從哪里得到這些統計的？ 陳：DOH，衛生局。我們認爲這僅僅是實際情況的一部分。在9/11之後，污染情況更加嚴重。這就是爲什麽我們決定要做哮喘病的調查，查明唐人街地區的真實情況。我們組織了很多志願者，對那份調查做了進一步的研究。我們走到街上，在公園裏，在圖書館，在唐人街各個地方做調查。有一些資料我們不能使用，因爲我們採訪的那些人不住在唐人街。一些調查資料我們不能用。最後，我們一共調查了唐人街580個家庭，都沒有集中在特定的區域。我們吃驚地發現，根據統計，五個家庭之中就至少有一個患哮喘病的。 問：你們是怎樣調查的？是不是隨機在不同的公衆場所問街上的行人？你們有沒有讓他們做呼吸測試？你們到底是怎麽做的？ 陳：隨機調查。 問：回答問題單？ 陳：我們用了三個月的時間準備問題單。 問：給我舉一個問題單上問題的例子。你們是怎樣確定別人是否患哮喘病？ 陳：在調查中，我們首先問他們住在哪里？接著，你是否呼吸有困難？是否被醫生確診患哮喘病，以及診斷時間？我們問一些類似的問題。 問：和EPA做出唐人街是紐約市污染最嚴重地區的統計結果相比，你的調查是否是使用同樣或者類似的方法？他們是怎樣獲得那些資訊的？你們是否使用了類似的方法？你知道他們是怎麽做的嗎？ 陳：我忘記了。在我們準備問題單的時候，我們有DOH和EPA的範本。 問：你們做了些修改？ 陳：是的，我們做了些修改。Mount Sinai醫院也做了他們自己的研究。我們有這兩套方式，做了些比較，然後創造了我們自己的模式。 問：唐人街有很多非盈利組織，爲什么CPA會出面做這個？ 陳：實際上，我不太清楚。但在唐人街區域，我們大家都應該關心環境問題。也許是因爲資金問題，或者很多人覺得這不是一個嚴重的問題，因爲哮喘病，鉛中毒，和吸煙不會立即對健康産生影響。長期來看，會對以後有影響，但不是立即有影響。我們知道這些是很嚴重的問題，我們也同時知道哮喘病，鉛中毒和吸煙都能有效受到控制。如果你瞭解了，你就能夠保護自己。 問：你們做調查的時候有沒有包括不同年齡段的人？你說你們調查了580個家庭，包括兒童和老年人嗎？ 陳：是的。我們的調查沒有包括16歲以下的兒童。調查物件只是16歲以上的成人。我們有去老年人中心對老年人進行調查。在調查過程中，我們發現很多人不瞭解哮喘病，尤其是老年人。大多數老年人認爲哮喘病是兒童疾病。“用不著擔心。什麽也用不著做。他們長大之後，哮喘病會自動消失的。”諸如此類的想法。他們認爲如果你哮喘，就去做一些體育運動，跑步，游泳，使你的身體更強壯，這樣哮喘會消失的。那種想法。還有很多人認爲堅持吃一段時期的藥也會治癒哮喘病的。 問：看來你的調查顯示了兩樣事情：一個是唐人街的環境，空氣質量… 陳：是的。 問：其次是哮喘病，而且這兩件事是相關聯的。但比如，你剛才談到老年人。我想他們很多都來自中國，那裏男性吸煙非常普遍。這要看他們居住的地區，如果他們住在工廠附近或大城市裏，比如廣州，那裏環境污染非常嚴重，很多人在來之前就有患哮喘病的傾向，你很難說他們的哮喘病是唐人街的環境造成的。你懂我的意思嗎？有多少是因爲唐人街的污染造成的，又有多少是受以前在中國以及個人的影響？ 陳：這是個很好的問題（笑聲）。根據我們的統計，哮喘病患者中51.1%是青少年。從整體來講，有三分之一哮喘病患者是在搬到唐人街地區之後被診斷患有哮喘病的。這就是說，在他們來美國之前，來紐約之前，沒有被診斷患任何病。但自從他們來到唐人街，尤其在9/11之後，他們呼吸就有了問題。這些症狀更加嚴重。可能正如你所講，是他們以前就有的。 但事實告訴我們，9/11之後，整體上都有惡化。這是我們所見到的事實。 問：上一次報告是EPA在9/11之前，1996年做的？ 陳：是的。但那份報告只顯示了汽油污染。並不包括所有的問題，空氣質量。但在9/11之後，我認爲這成爲了一個非常嚴重的問題。我在唐人街工作。那天，我在唐人街。在那之後，我只有一天沒有到唐人街來。後來，我每天都有到唐人街。我仍然記得在感恩節之後還能聞到空氣裏那種氣味。 問：那差不多是兩個月之後。 陳：前三個星期簡直是糟透了。即使把窗戶關上，到處都能夠聞到空氣裏非常強烈的難聞氣味。 問：你是否記得在9/11之後EPA對唐人街做了什麽污染的調查，因爲唐人街離世貿中心非常近？ 陳：我聽說過，但記不大清楚了。是的，他們有做過，但不是在唐人街地區。而且，在9/11之後，人們只是關心Canal街以南的唐人街。我覺得很可笑（笑聲），因爲這個界限沒有任何意義，空氣是自由流動的。實際上，我們的辦公室在Canal街北面。但我每天還是能夠聞到。 問：根據你們的地點，在Canal街以北，你們有沒有資格領空氣篩檢程式或其他9/11的資金？ 陳：沒有（笑聲）。 問：那麽，作爲一個組織，因爲所處的位置，CPA沒有得到任何9/11資金嗎？ 陳：沒有。 問：那你們做哮喘病研究的經費是從哪里來的？ 陳：我忘記經費的問題了，但只有非常少的資金。 問：是私人提供的嗎？ 陳：我想是私人提供的。CPA基本上是靠私人機構資助的。我們沒有得到太多的政府資金，因爲我們不是一個大的機構，儘管我們爲社區做了很多高質量的工作。自從政府削減開支以來，我們確實很難得到資助。我們現在有經費開設免費英文課。但這些經費不是因爲9/11獲得的。是以前的資金。CPA沒有得到舉辦工作培訓，英文輔導的資金。 問：唐人街有資格申請空氣篩檢程式和資金的地區是在Canal街和Pike街之間的區域嗎？ 陳：那個區域以下。關於篩檢程式，你如果後來符合條件，也會在家裏申請到。 問：不論你在哪里？ 陳：只要那裏的空氣受到影響。我知道很多在布魯克林區日落公園地區住的人也申請到了。 問：（打斷）唐人街空氣污染是因爲交通。曼哈頓橋在這邊，不遠又是布魯克林橋。這個區域交通堵塞比較嚴重。剛才你談到汽油污染。因此，唐人街在9/11之前就已經很糟糕了。 EPA或者其他環保組織有沒有過問過這裏空氣污染的問題？就你瞭解，都採取了些什麽樣的措施來解決這個問題？ 陳：據我所知，現在政府在唐人街地區做的事情不多。現在是越來越糟，因爲受9/11影響空氣質量下降，以及旅遊汽車。有一些私人公司經營去波士頓，華盛頓，費城的旅遊交通業務。 問：在東百老彙？ 陳：是的，在東百老彙。還有Bowery街上去賭場的汽車。那些大卡車和大轎車。還有，總是在修橋。Canal街也總在修。施工，旅遊汽車，仍然有柴油卡車開過曼哈頓橋。 問：所有這些都與9/11沒有關係？唐人街一直都有這些？ 陳：只是越來越糟。在9/11之後，這只是巧合。整個唐人街地區的空氣質量都變得越來越糟。越來越糟。 問：你一共做了多長時間的調查？ 陳：我們從2002年春天開始，到2002年8月有了最終結果。 問：才6個月？你們有沒有重復調查？你們是怎樣收集資訊的？ 陳：我們沒有做太多的跟進工作，因爲人手不夠，而且我們沒有經費做跟進的工作。現在，我們在開展一項唐人街社區哮喘病的專案。CPA有了一個更好的計劃。第一件事就是做更多的宣傳教育。第二件事是改善環境。第三件事是監控空氣質量。 我們在朝這三個方向努力。現在，我們在申請經費，不知道能否有資金來做這些。我們要在這三個方面下功夫。 問：教育即是教育社區，讓居民和業主，在這裏工作和居住的人知道周圍環境發生的事情。針對這些研究結果，你都做了些什么？你們是怎樣利用這些調查報告取得市議員的關注的？你們是怎樣同政府交涉，以使這些問題得到改善的？ 陳：在政府層面上，我們想要看到環境的改善。我們大家聚在一起想點子。比如，今年夏天，我們和其他組織合作，要製作一個記錄片，讓人們知道唐人街空氣污染的嚴重性。我們召集了一些青少年，就這個問題培訓他們，看他們會提出什麽樣的想法。我們希望這十分鐘的錄影會引起人們對唐人街環境污染問題的關注。我們還有另外一個想法，但還沒有一個確切的計劃，因爲我們有一個核心組織專門負責這個問題。另外一個想法是統計唐人街的植樹，再同環境發展搞得好的社區相比較，比如看有多少綠色區域。完成這一步之後，第二步就是要把這些送到市議會。 問：你的調查主要是針對哮喘病。9/11之後，你沒有做汽油污染以外空氣組成的調查？ 陳：實際上通過監控空氣質量，我們已經得到了一些資訊。我們已經聯繫了做實地監控的部門。但這的確需要專業技術人員來搞。我們想與一些大學教授和博士專案合作，看他們是否有興趣研究唐人街地區的空氣質量。但我們明確知道那還是不夠。現在只是在郵局頂上有一個監控台。 問：這是我們現在的狀況？ 陳：是的，現在，這是我們僅有的。街道上沒有這些。我們計劃做更多的研究，看一下有哪個組織對街道水平的空氣質量感興趣。 問：在我看來，解決這個問題需要做兩方面的事情。交通等方面的事需要在市政府層面上解決。但比如像旅遊汽車等的事情需要在華人商業界範圍內解決。並不是由政府干涉，說你必須把車停在哪里。那是華人商業界的事情。那你們有沒有試圖跟他們聯繫，比如說讓他們把車停在其他地方，因爲他們也造成了唐人街的空氣污染。 陳：是的。在忙完手裏的工作之後，我們要跟那些商業組織聯繫，看他們有沒有什麽辦法做些改進。關於政府方面，也許在做了更多的研究之後，我們可能會建議比如說哪條街要改成單行道。那些柴油卡車應該繞道而行，而不是直接走Canal街。但在此之前我們必須要做更多的工作。 問：你認爲那些商業界人士會關心這些嗎？那些停在東百老彙的旅遊汽車公司和去賭場的汽車公司，你認爲他們會認識到從某種程度上講他們也造成了唐人街的空氣污染？還是說他們只是關心自己的生意？ 陳：是的，他們確實關心自己的生意。但如果我們能找到更好的方式解決他們生意上的問題，同時又照顧到環境，這將對他們的旅遊業務和社區經濟都有幫助。必須有一些相互的利益。但如果沒有人去找這些相互促進的方式，這當然會不利於改善當前的形勢。如果我們花時間做些研究，去探求這種相互促進的方式，也許會有所改善。 問：在跟很多唐人街社區的民衆談過話之後，我總感覺到他們認爲政府，市里對唐人街不夠重視， 尤其是在9/11之後。但在我看來，似乎社區本身很多事情也沒有做好。 陳：我本人認爲，那些商業組織只是顧自己。換句話說，他們只是關心如何做好自己的生意，而不去注意環保。但他們確實聞得到臭味，尤其是在夏天，大家都知道這對旅遊業不利。我想指出我們對面的鄰居，小義大利區，整條街都是餐館，但他們就沒有那種氣味。他們是怎麽做的？爲什麽他們能夠做到？如果我們能夠改進--- 問：你是否認爲那些義大利餐館老闆在共同合作方面做得比華人好？ 陳：我不知道。我想應該有人做些研究。他們怎樣處理垃圾？怎樣保持街道清潔？他們爲什麽經營餐館卻沒有那種臭味（笑聲）？在我們做了研究之後，我們要看是否唐人街能夠採取相同的措施。唐人街能否做到這些？我想他們會認識到，如果他們多做一些努力，或者稍加注意一些，他們能夠改善環境狀況，除掉難聞的氣味，這對他們也是有好處的。我相信他們會這樣做的，因爲這關係到他們的生意。如果門前很乾淨而且沒有臭味，顧客自然都會來的。 （換磁帶。中斷） 問：你說到你很欣賞在同一條街的小義大利區，同在Mulberry和Mott街上，僅隔一條街，能夠管理得沒有唐人街的那種氣味（笑聲）。我想問你一個不太禮貌的問題，你是否覺得華人以自己的環境爲榮？因爲如果你看中國，你是否認爲唐人街在某種程度上是中國的一個縮影，在人們的生活方式上？做生意的方式上？彼此的交流上？走在街上，我看到很多商販 把所有的東西都擺在街上。把所有的東西，所有的垃圾丟在街上。從很多方面來講，華人是否真正關心自己周圍的環境？ 陳：我認爲他們是沒有這種意識。正是因爲這個原因，我們要教育他們。我想華人自身也愛乾淨。但他們不知道怎麽做。沒有人給他們樹立榜樣。我想以香港爲例。我記得，在60年代的時候，街上都有很多垃圾。但政府搞運動，鼓勵人們保持街道清潔。他們甚至設計了一個卡通人物，一個垃圾蟲。後來，城市就變了。當時，人們知道那是好事情。但在唐人街，沒有人行動，沒有人提出以及認真對待這個問題。 問：你認爲教育是一方面，在環境污染方面，他們不知道他們的行爲會給環境帶來哪些影響。 陳：是的。沒有人組織計劃過，告訴他們該怎樣做。不但是要教育他們，讓他們知道保持環境清潔對他們有益，而且要跟他們講需要做些什么，以及怎樣做。我自己總是在想，就在街對面，小義大利區就完全不一樣。我們要花時間去研究，看唐人街能否採取類似的措施，或者找到更好的方式來解決這個問題。 問：我們有沒有和小義大利社區聯繫，請教他們是如何保持環境清潔的？ 陳：我不負責這些事情，因此我本人不清楚。但我知道除了我們以外還有其他一些組織比較關注環保問題，比如Clean Up Chinatown。鑒於對唐人街街道清潔問題的關注，他們特別成立了這個組織。也許他們比我們做了更多的事情。 問：看了你的研究報告之後，我想你提出的問題之一就是蟑螂。 陳：是的。 問：我們都知道，唐人街有很多餐館，而且餐館上面還有很多住家，只要樓下有餐館，那些樓裏就免不了會有蟑螂。你是否認爲唐人街哮喘病患者的數目同唐人街對餐館業的依賴性有關？ 陳：我不知道。我想應該是沒有關係，因爲每一個哮喘病人發病原因都不一樣。並不只是因爲蟑螂，或氣味。有時是因爲吸煙。有時是因爲香水。無論如何，這些都造成了環境污染。而且，這些都能夠得到有效控制和改善的。 問：蟑螂問題能夠得到控制？你是這個意思嗎？ 陳：不是，我是說從整體來看。是的。某種程度上來講，蟑螂問題也是如此（笑聲）。只是他們要稍加注意。這是能夠做到的。 問：在調查中你提到五個人當中有一個--- 陳：家庭。五個家庭裏有一個。 問：五個家庭裏有一個人？ 陳：不對。五個家庭中有一個家庭。 問：五個家庭中的一個家庭。 陳：是的，至少一個家庭裏有哮喘病患者。 問：這比衛生局按照哮喘病住院病人的標準所做出的統計結果要高。你提到很多患哮喘病的華人不去醫院。 陳：因爲華人習慣吃從藥店裏買來的中國進口的藥。 問：或者是中藥？ 陳：是的，或許是中藥。在那些華人藥店，你能找到醫治各種疾病的藥。治身體上每一個部位的病（笑聲）。如果你禿頂，吃這個或那個。只要是你能夠講出來名字的病，他們都有藥治。是否奏效卻是另外一回事。大多數華人會吃這些藥。那是中國那邊的習慣。他們如果生了病，第一件事就是去藥店，而不是去看醫生。他們去藥店找一些西藥或中藥來吃，如果不管用，再試其他一些方法。如果後來他們的病情變得越來越嚴重，那他們不得不去看醫生。因此，醫生不是他們的第一選擇。首選是去藥店買藥。 問：華人有種想法，認爲哮喘病並不嚴重。認爲過了一段時間之後會自然好的。 陳：是的。所以，他們不把哮喘病當成一個嚴重的問題，就好像吸煙。每個人都吸煙，沒有什麽大不了的？爲什么總把它當成很大的一件事？人們的觀念需要改變。我們也負責吸煙的問題。大多數人不知道一支香煙裏含有多少有毒物質。如果他們知道裏面有四千多種對身體有害的化學成分，我想他們下一次拿起香煙要點的時候會多考慮一些。但他們並不知道這些。因此，我們首先要進行教育。 問：據你所知，EPA或者其他機構，有沒有對唐人街的空氣質量或空氣污染做過長期的研究，調查在9/11之後這個地區的空氣中是否增加了一些新的未知的物質？ 陳：我自己沒有印象。EPA做了一項空氣質量的研究，但他們未公佈任何資料。 問：除了像CPA這麽小的組織，除了你自己做的這些事情，你認爲EPA還能做些什麽來改善現狀？其他組織又能做些什么來解決這個問題？這是這個地區主要的問題，我認爲這要由很多機構組織起來共同解決這個問題，從交通到清潔，很多很多的事情。 陳：CPA已經開始與其他組織合作。希望這樣的聯繫會越來越多。使更多的組織參與進來，使他們對這個地區和這些問題産生興趣。CPA不是自己做事情，我們需要與其他組織合作。比如，CPA與六家不同的醫院合作，讓他們瞭解唐人街的問題。我們也與很多較大的組織有聯繫，像一些聯合組織，看他們是否有興趣幫助我們。 問：值得注意的是，現在9/11已經過去兩年多了，能夠通過追蹤調查看到---，我們知道在9/11以後，空氣質量顯然變得越來越差，但你仍然不清楚世貿中心的倒塌會使多少人患哮喘病，或受其他潛在的對身體健康有害的因素的影響。 陳：現在我們還不知道。我們做了很多工作，但因爲我們人力有限，還不瞭解整個局面。如果要深入瞭解，我們需要讓更多的組織加入進來。這是我們的希望，以及今後要做的事情。 問：你認爲唐人街普通的華人對此會有多少瞭解或有多么關心？如果你是一個新移民，剛剛來到美國或者紐約， 你多半會到唐人街工作或做其他什麽事情。你認爲他們會想“啊，這裏空氣不好，也許我不應該待在這裏？”你認爲一般的華人會想到這些嗎？ 陳：沒錯。很多新移民住在Canal街上，接近東百老彙，很多是福州人。我們在工作當中經常要接觸很多福州人，合法移民和非法移民都有。他們頭腦中的首要任務絕對不是環境問題。他們要爲生存而奮鬥，所以首要的事情是賺錢。如何安頓下來，過上好生活。一個非常普遍的問題是很多家庭爲了讓母親有時間工作而把孩子送回中國。這是很悲傷的事情。他們主要關心的是怎樣賺錢，以及怎樣賺更多的錢（笑聲）。他們有很多傷心的故事。他們自然不會想到環境問題，但這並不意味著我們不應該告訴他們。我們要通過各種渠道努力教導他們。至少是怎樣在日常生活中保護自己。 問：給我們舉幾個人們能在這裏保護自己的例子。其一，很明顯就是不要吸煙。 陳：比如，他們不知道吸煙以及被動吸煙是多麽有害。他們沒有這種概念，因爲這在中國不是很嚴重的事情。很多人都吸煙，在家裏或者其他場合。因此，我們跟他們講真實的情況。我們告訴他們，如果他們確實要吸煙，那至少要離開房間。如果吸煙的人不這樣做，那么你要離開房間。還有鉛中毒的問題，尤其是在舊樓房裏。他們應該知道不要開防火窗。要多加注意窗罩，脫落的漆。還有你剛才提到的蟑螂的問題，他們只是需要多加注意。在唐人街曼哈頓橋和Williamsburg橋地區有很多的鉛塵。在那兒周圍居住的人要多加注意。不要打開窗戶。在家要使用空氣篩檢程式或空調。 問：聽起來你還有很多工作要做。第一步就是要獲得更多的資金繼續做研究。一旦有了所有的資料，你要同唐人街各界組織聯繫，包括市里和政府層面。 陳：現在，CPA是很多主流聯盟的成員。比如，紐約移民聯盟，美國亞裔聯邦，和紐約禁煙聯盟。我們想把各個團體都團結起來，希望將來能夠解決唐人街的問題。 問：聽起來你有很多工作要做（笑聲）。我祝你好運。 陳：實際上，並不是我或CPA在做這些。CPA有很多志願者。我要感謝他們幫助我們開英文課和入籍班，以及在環境問題上的幫助。那些志願者每次都貢獻出他們的時間，他們確實關心社區，他們在一起工作，完成了我們的任務。 問：我們要談最後一件事情。很多人都提到EPA建立的街道系統，如果你在Canal街以上，你得不到一些補助。你是否覺得這是一個愚蠢的想法？很明顯，用這種方式把這些區域分開不起作用。 陳：是的，的確是。現在，EPA在爲那些受9/11影響家裏空氣質量下降的家庭免費做實地檢測。但這還是不夠。正如你所說，只是限於Canal街以下。這樣把唐人街切成兩半。 問：而且，空氣到處流動（笑聲）。 陳：是的。做的是不錯，但還是不夠。我本人認爲要多做一些。不是說要多做些免費實地檢測。就好像吃阿司匹林治頭痛一樣。並沒有治癒主要的病症。主要的問題在室外，空氣質量。我希望EPA更加關注室外空氣質量。 如何改善這一區域的狀況。唐人街是Ground Zero附近最大的住宅區。不僅華人住在這裏，還有很多其他族裔居民。在這裏居住的人位於9/11受害者的最前線。應該有更多的資金投入到這裏，做更多的事情。但如何做，以及做什么，我認爲他們需要做更多的研究。比如，一些街道要改成步行街。住宅區不應該有商業交通。我想這會對解決污染問題有幫助。整個唐人街地區的交通系統要重新規劃。現在，這裏的人口日益增長。無論如何，他們應該做更多的研究，爲這個區域找到更好的解決方法。 問：我相信這將非常具有挑戰性，因爲所有這些問題並不是一夜之間産生的。獲得良好和永久的改善需要很多組織做出大量努力。我感謝你和CPA積極的參與，對民衆的宣傳教育，以及盡了自己的一份力。特別感謝你和CPA花費這麽多時間做這些工作。還有什麽我們沒談到你需要補充的嗎？ 陳：沒有了（輕笑聲）。 問：非常感謝你。我是Lan Trinh。 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chris Chan 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Shi Yun Chin Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-05-21 Chinatown Interview: Language Chinese Chinatown Interview: Occupation garment worker Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is May 24, 2004. We’re at #193 Centre Street. Sitting with me is Mr. Chin. Mr. Chin, could you please tell us your story, tell a little bit about where you were born? A: I was born in China’s Guangdong Province, in Taishan Prefecture. Q: Oh, you’re of Taishan descent? A: Because of the civil war in China, my family was forced to flee to Hong Kong. Q: What year was that? A: It was either in the 1950s or 1960s, I don’t remember very clearly. Q: Either way, it was after the Communist Liberation? A: I went with my parents to Taiwan, and I grew up and was educated in Taiwan. My maternal grandparents immigrated to America very early, and I myself immigrated in 1976. Q: Let’s slow down a little. Why did you go to Taiwan and not stay in Hong Kong? A: At that time I was still small. Maybe it was because my father had economic or political reasons causing him to go to Taiwan. The Nationalist Party and the Communist Party were enemies then, and maybe that’s why he had to go. Q: How old were you then? A: 2 or 3. Q: So you were very small then, and you really grew up in Taiwan. A: Yes. I grew up in Taiwan and was educated there. Later, my father immigrated [to America] in 1974, just when I was fulfilling my military service. Men all have compulsory military service, and after I finished it, I came to America. Q: So why did they come to America? A: My parents came because my grandparents had come. For example, if I had come, I would wish that my children would follow me. Q: So your father came first while you were serving in the military, and then you came to America later. A: Right. Q: How long did you serve in the military? A: Three years. Q: Why did they choose New York City? A: Because my grandparents had chosen New York. Q: Why did they choose New York and not California? A: I’m not really clear on that. Q: The year you immigrated to New York, how old were you? A: That was 1976, and I was 24 or 25. Q: When you came, did you already understand English? A: In Taiwan, I had finished high school, so I understood a little bit of English. Q: So after you came, what impressions did you have of America? Were you afraid of coming to a foreign place? A: I wasn’t afraid because the culture in Taiwan is already very close to the West, and more open to the world. I had a certain understanding of Western things, and didn’t feel it was foreign. It seemed like the movies, TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, they all talked about America, so I had already absorbed a lot of Western information. For example, the Communist Party is an iron curtain, and I’m not saying they’re bad, but they are more closed off, and so people from China lack information about this area, and for that reason it’s harder for them to adjust. Coming from Taiwan, I had this kind of information, this environment, and it was easier for me to accept things. Q: So previously your impression of America was from television, books, or from the letters you got from relatives living in America telling about life there. A: The information I got was that America was an advanced, free country, and that there was an American dream. Q: You have an American dream. What is it? A: At that time, I was young, and I had my own aspirations. Men just want to create their own business, establish their family and career, and make their lives complete. Q: Back when you were in the military, what was your dream job? A: Before I had come over, I still didn’t know what sort of careers available in America would suit me. After I arrived, I would have to see and experience things, and then I would know, because you can’t predict things in advance. My parents were working in the garment business, so I also entered that line of work, and because of their influence, I knew a little bit about that field [of work]. In New York during that period, Chinese people had two careers, working either in restaurants or in garment manufacturing, and the numbers employed were really huge, so I joined the garment manufacturing business without even thinking. Q: So your parents did garment manufacturing in Chinatown? A: Right. Q: And how old were they at the time? A: Between 50 and 60 years old. Q: Wasn’t it very difficult to adjust to beginning work for the first time in garment manufacturing when they’re already between the ages of 50 and 60 years old? A: Not really, because Chinatown’s population was tightly clustered, and as far as language goes, it was relatively easy to communicate, so daily shopping was easier, for example, and there were newspapers and magazines, there were Chinese theaters, and they could go out easily and walk around. Q: You said that you entered this profession without giving it much thought. Have you ever considered going to college? A: Yes, I’ve thought of continuing my education, but my parents had to work, and I have a lot of siblings, so maybe due to financial problems, I just couldn’t do that. Originally I had thought of studying and working at the same time, but I couldn’t do it in that environment, I had to work full-time. I was already in my twenties, and I had to be independent. Q: Before your parents came to America, what sort of work did they do in Hong Kong or Taiwan? A: My father was a public official in Taiwan, and my mother was a housewife. Q: You entered this profession in your twenties, would that be considered rather young? A: It would. Q: So when you first entered this profession, what did you do? A: When I first entered the profession, the normal jobs for men were sorter and presser. Q: What was it like as a sorter? A: When products arrived, you separated them out, then you arranged the manufacturing process. For example, the accessories to a pair of pants, the buttons, the label, the zipper, you would separate the parts out and send them out. This was considered men’s work. Q: So you weren’t actually making the clothes? A: I wasn’t actually making the clothes. Q: Did you receive formal training before you began this work? A: I didn’t get any formal training. Just start in the midst of it, and I’d watch what others were doing and do the same thing. Q: That was in 1976. What was the salary like then, for example, how much could you make a week? A: If you worked five or six days a week, you could make 300 dollars a week, and that was considered pretty good, because expenses were low, and you could get by. Q: And at that time, you were in your twenties and didn’t have a family to support? A: Right. Q: You entered that profession very quickly. Did you feel like your American dream was a disappointment, in that as soon as you arrived you started working in a garment factory? A: Everyone has a different American dream. I think that I didn’t have enough education or talent, and I couldn’t reach some high standard, but I could take care of myself in America, I could live peacefully and enjoy my work, and without expecting too much, I could get by. Q: In this profession, where there were so many female garment workers, did you enjoy the work? A: I enjoyed this work because of my firm conviction in working hard and getting along with others. I respected my profession, and I got along well with others. Q: You did factory work for a long time, you worked in this profession for a long time, but did you often switch factories, jumping to new work when there was better pay? A: I worked in the garment industry for over twenty years, but I only worked in a few factories, because my relations with the employers and with the workers was very good, the employers treated the employees very well, so there was no need to switch places, just to put forth my effort and reap the rewards, and I wasn’t “exploited.” Q: [Did you say] “Fall short”? A: No, I was speaking Mandarin Chinese. My Cantonese isn’t so good. Q: Oh, your Cantonese is very good. So you didn’t think about changing your profession. You continued in it all the way. A: Yes, I just kept doing it. A: Lots of people have said that garment work has reached its swan song, some of that due to the government and some of that due to private individuals. It seems that after the government signed the agreement with Mexico, combining the economies and such, America’s own production ability decreased, and the opportunities for employment also decreased. Q: Have you ever lost your job during the last 20 years? A: Yes. For example, if the garment company running our factory didn’t send us enough work and orders, then we would be laid off, but we could collect unemployment benefits, because we had insurance. Q: Have you ever been unemployed for one or two years? A: Even if New York has weakened, there’s still at least some much work to do. Q: When you came to New York, you had family here. Have you ever thought of moving to any other place? A: No. Q: Have you ever wanted to move due to factors like the weather, and so on? A: No, I’m used to it. Q: When you came in 1976, did you live in Chinatown? A: No, I lived in Manhattan. I worked in Chinatown. Q: Then have you always worked in Chinatown? What was your impression towards Chinatown in 1976? A: There was good and bad, because in the 70s, there were gangs, and that was all bad, they would disturb the peace and tranquility in the community; the good thing was that it was easier to adjust, because it was a Chinese community, the clothes, food, housing, are work were all convenient, and it was more interconnected. Q: When did you establish your own family? A: In 1979. Q: When you met your wife, what was your profession? A: She was also working in the garment industry, but she stopped work after having a baby, and then she stayed at home as a housewife, because she wanted to take care of the children, and manage the household. Q: Did you ever join a union? A: In ’76, when I started work in the garment factory, I also joined the 23-25 Union. Q: Why did you want to join the union? A: Because it had security and benefits. They offered worker’s protection, and they had benefits like health insurance, holiday time, lots of good things. Q: Now, did your bosses give you any pressure about joining the union, did they tell you not to join the union? A: No, because America is a free country, so they can’t reject you [based on that]. Q: What were the employers like? A: My own employers were Chinese, some of them are from Hong Kong, and some of them from mainland China. Q: Now, in the twenty years that you have been in Chinatown there have been a lot of, in the 70s, there were lots of Chinese from Taishan in Guangdong, and in the 80s, a lot came from Hong Kong, and then in the last ten years, a lot have come from Fuzhou, so what kind of problems come about when so many Chinese people from different regions are in the same place? A: In my own experience, there haven’t been any problems, at work everyone gets along, there aren’t any quarrels, because everyone is working. I’ve heard that there have been arguments, but they weren’t a big deal. Q: But newly arrived immigrants without any status are willing to work for cheaper pay, and that creates competition. As a Chinese-American who has been here for much longer, do you feel that they are stealing your jobs or forcing down your salary? A: Personally I haven’t come across such a thing. I’ve heard others say that, but still it’s not very common. The employers have to run things according to the law, and they don’t want to risk trouble. If the employer doesn’t follow the employment laws, and he tries to exploit his workers, then he’ll have to take responsibility, and I don’t think my employers would be willing to do that. Q: So you’ve never felt any influence? A: I’ve worked at several garment factories, and the garment factories had really perfect regulations, for example, fire equipment, and children not allowed in the factories. They were really excellent. Q: So the laws were very strict. Now, all the way until now, you’ve never actually made the clothes, you were responsible for arranging…? A: No, I worked as a presser. Q: Oh, you are working as a presser? A: I’ve always pressed clothes. Q: In English we call it “presser.” Because I haven’t worked in the production of clothing, I don’t understand the process of manufacturing clothing. At what point does clothing reach you to be pressed? A: When the garment factory produces a pair of pants, first comes a strip of cloth, there’s the trunk of the pants, and there’s the pockets, and it enters the clothing factory, and the female textile workers sew up the trunk of the pants, sews on the zipper, adds the buttons, and the legs, and completes the pants, then there’s some string cutters who clean up the ends of the strings, and then they come to us and we use steam to make them flat, make them beautiful, and complete a pair of pants. Q: Do you sit as you do the pressing, or do you stand? A: I stand while I press. Because of the location of this equipment, I need to stand while I do it. Q: Now you work seven hours a day, how is it that you don’t get exhausted? A: Once you get used to it, you won’t feel exhausted. Q: Have you ever suffered any work-related illnesses? A: I’ve never had any work-related illnesses. Q: I’ve heard lots of female workers say that they sit for such long hours that their hands and legs develop problems, isn’t that true? A: Also some of them have pain in their hip bones. Q: And you are very healthy? A: The main problem is that on hot days I feel really hot, because in that work environment, it’s not possible to have air conditioning, because there’s the steam, so air conditioning wouldn’t work. But as long as there’s air flow, it’s OK. Q: When you add on other machines too, isn’t it very hot? A: I can put it like this, that’s why we have fans and air pumps, in order to make the air flow. The important thing is the structure of the factory, and whether it has been designed well or not. Q: When 9/11 took place, you were working in your factory. Where is it located? A: It’s on Canal Street, between Lafayette and Broadway. Q: Is it close to this building? A: Yes. Q: What kind of impact did 9/11 have upon your life? A: Basically the time around 9/11 was extremely difficult days for America, New York and for Chinatown. I myself personally suffered, because after that day, a lot of my work had all but disappeared. The traffic had been tightly restricted and the garment factories didn’t open, there wasn’t any work, so we didn’t get any income, and in that way we were impacted. Q: Is that because of the quarantine, and the raw materials couldn’t get inside? A: Yes, the materials couldn’t get in or out. And people’s attitudes changed, they became more hesitant, so there were many weeks that we couldn’t do any work. Q: And that wasn’t because there were no people to work, there were still people ordering products and there were people working, but rather it was because vehicles couldn’t get in? A: Yes, because we were right next to the place where those repeated disasters had occurred, and so our traffic was greatly controlled. Q: So how long was your factory closed? A: Two, three weeks. Q: What did you do during that time? A: I stopped working. I didn’t go to work. Q: And what about your income? A: Since we weren’t operating, we didn’t have any income. Q: In this kind of situation, what help could your union provide? A: After 9/11 occurred, the entire world, all of America helped out New Yorkers, and people like us who lost our work, who suffered, the organizations like the Red Cross, Safe Horizon, and the union, they all offered assistance and help. For example, some people had no income for several weeks, and some couldn’t pay their rent, or they couldn’t buy food. The Red Cross first helped these people. Q: Mr. Chin, did you yourself apply for economic assistance? A: Yes, because I had suffered, I was a victim of 9/11. Q: And was that because your factory had temporarily closed? A: It had temporarily stopped operations. Q: Now how did you know about [the economic assistance], did the news report that you could go to these organizations and apply, or did you hear from something else? A: I saw it in newspapers and magazines, from the news in newspapers, and from what my friends said, what they told me. Q: How many places did you go apply? A: I applied at the 9/11 Safe Horizon because the 9/11 Safe Horizon helped victims a lot. Because I was a victim. Q: Even though you don’t live in this area… A: Because I worked in the area that was affected by the disaster. For example, there was a one-time cash subsidy. Later, they helped us apply for a few months of health insurance. Later they held training classes, those lasted 13 weeks, and they taught English, computers and business skills. Q: Which one did you select? A: I selected both English and computers. Q: How is your current English level? A: I can understand a little spoken English, and I know how to press some of the computer keys. Q: If you were to move to a city without Chinese people, would your life be difficult? A: Due to my life experience, I wouldn’t be afraid. The greatest fear one has is fear itself. If you aren’t afraid, then even in a difficult environment, if you have willpower and you’re throw yourself into things, then everything will be fine. Q: So for thirteen weeks you studied English and computers, and…? A: And also studied some skills for the garment industry. I guess you can say my profession is that of presser, and I learned some new skills, such as how to make the products the best possible, how to operate, how to run things, and I increased my skills, and stopped using outdated methods which would overtax my body’s energy. Q: But you’ve already done this line of work for so long. Surely you’ve already learned everything you need to know. In those 13 weeks, did you really learn anything knew? A: I did, because during all these years, I was just focused on working each day, and I had no opportunity to learn anything new. Q: Did your factory have training every so often? A: No, it didn’t. Q: So you just used your same methods for ten or fifteen years without any changes? A: Without changing at all. During those six weeks, I learned a lot of stuff. Q: Recently, the garment production business has gradually been outsourcing to foreign countries. Have you thought about changing your line of work? A: If I wanted to change professions, to speak bluntly, I’m too old for that, my age won’t let me adapt, to start over anew, because I’m not a young man anymore. Q: You don’t look old. [The interviewee laughs.] Q: Do you fear that there will be no more work in this field? A: I have a lot of confidence in it, I’m certain there will still be work. Q: So you would say that the amount of work might decrease, but it won’t disappear? A: It’s just like food, it’s not going to disappear. Just as people will always need food, there will always be a need for clothing, people will definitely need to wear clothing. Q: But your salaries can never be as low as those in China? A: Well, that’s talking about the ability to compete. Our strength here in New York is that we can produce clothing more quickly. That’s something that China and Southeast Asia can’t keep up with, don’t you agree? Q: So if the order is not large, you can finish the job quickly in a short amount of time and provide the goods, while distant places can’t do that. A: It seems that in the business world, a single day’s difference is quite significant. Q: Let’s go back to discussing those thirteen weeks. Besides training, was there any other subsidy? A: During those 13 weeks, we didn’t work, we gained knowledge, and we studied for 35 hours every week. During this time we couldn’t work, so there wasn’t any salary. But the 9/11 compensation gave us 300 dollars a week. Q: Was this 300 dollars less than what you were making at the factory? A: No, because… Q: You said that in the 70s, you made 300 dollars a week, and if you’re still only making 300 dollars a week, how is that enough for your daily life? A: Because I wasn’t going to classes every single day, and I would use my mornings, I would first work for 4 or 5 hours, and then go to class. I would go to classes according to their schedule, and in that way I had the 300 dollars in compensation, and besides I had a bit of salary from my work. Q: So you were still working, you didn’t completely stop work? A: Yes. Q: How long was work halted after 9/11? A: It completely stopped for two or three weeks. Afterwards, it came back very gradually, and became stable. The garment factories’ progress slowly returned to normal, and then there were the training courses, that kind of education. Because of 9/11, a lot of the garment factories closed down, because they couldn’t maintain themselves. Q: And that was because materials couldn’t get in? A: And it was also because the garment factories had to bear everyday operating expenses, such as rent, utilities, and at the same time there was no product, and they couldn’t keep it up. Q: But your factory didn’t have that problem…? A: Our boss and workers both understood each other’s situation, that we were in the same boat, and we worked together to get through those difficulties. Q: What kind of teacher did you have during those 13 weeks, was the teacher Chinese or White…? A: There were Whites and also Chinese. Q: There were Chinese? A: The Chinese teachers used Chinese to explain things. It seems that for the English classes they used non-Chinese [literally: “foreigners”], and it seems that the computer teacher was a non-Chinese, at least that’s the way it was in my class. Q: At the time, did you think about changing your job? Did they encourage you to study new professions? A: There was a bit of everything, but they knew that the students’ levels didn’t reach so high, so they didn’t remind us that we should change professions. In the computer classes, we could only learn the most basic stuff, so we couldn’t change careers based on that. Q: Did studying computers help you in your work after you finished the classes? A: At the moment, we don’t have any need for computers, there’s no need for computers at work, so learning about computers was a matter of gaining personal knowledge. Q: Which organization provided the 13 weeks of training? A: The 23-25 Union. Q: Did the union run the classes themselves, or did another organization take responsibility for the teaching? A: I think it was the CWE, I think that organization’s system was very good, they started classes on time, and after we finished there were tests. After putting forth so much effort, they also wanted to know what kind of results there were. Q: Do you think that 13 weeks was sufficient? Would you like to continue studying? A: I think that, if it didn’t affect my work, I would like to continue studying, because people desire to increase their knowledge, and gain better knowledge. Q: After the economic assistance ended, how did you get by? A: I returned to my position as a worker, and worked normally. Q: Did you work the same amount afterwards, or did you do less? A: In our factory, we had dozens of people go do the training, so it affected the amount that our boss was able to produce. After those 13 weeks were over, we all worked very hard for the boss, because we had a responsibility to the company. Q: Your children have all grown up now. Do you wish for them to follow you in this career? A: My children have already grown up. They’ve graduated from college and found jobs. They don’t do this line of work. My older daughter is working as an accountant, while the younger one works at Bloomingdale’s. I think they’re doing very good, they’re doing management work. Q: So your American dream has more or less been fulfilled in your children’s lives too, hasn’t it? A: We Chinese want our sons to grow up to be like dragons and our daughters to grow up to be like phoenixes, so now that they have had this measure of success, I feel a bit of satisfaction. Q: How long do you plan to work before retiring? A: To put it directly, I will work until I can’t, and then I’ll retire. Q: You look like you’re in excellent health, isn’t that right? A: A person’s health is very important. Q: You’ve worked in Chinatown for many years, what changes do you think Chinatown has undergone in these decades? Other than the increase in population and the widening of the roads, what changes have taken place among the Chinese people, or in the Chinese community? A: The changes have been very dramatic. I’ll tell you something funny. At that time, when I first came from Taiwan, all the Chinese in Chinatown spoke Taishan-style Cantonese, and at that time if someone on the street spoke Mandarin Chinese, I would have thought it was really weird, and I’d look up and see who it was, because there were really few people that spoke Mandarin Chinese. Nowadays, if you don’t speak the Fuzhou dialect, people think it’s really strange, because Chinatown has so many people from Fuzhou now. So the change in 20 years has been huge. Q: Do you think that such different Chinese people can unite? A: I have the feeling that they have their own cliques. Taishan people have Taishan circles, and I think that interacting with them is a lot easier. Q: Well, considering that you’re not from Taishan either, which circle do you feel like you belong to? A: I have my own friends, my own partner, I’m more easy-going. Q: Besides the union, are you a member of any other groups? A: Community groups or that sort of thing, no. Q: Why is that? You don’t feel the need, or…? A: I don’t know. I feel that those are groups for long-term Chinese-Americans. That’s the way I feel. Q: You’re not old, but you have been in America a long time, so do you consider yourself to be…? A: I’m also a long-term Chinese-American, but I also have my own circle. Besides work, on Sundays I go fishing with my friends, go have fun. Q: We’ve already talked for a long time, Mr. Chin, but do you feel that we’ve forgotten anything, about life, work, or your personal views…? A: To joke a little, I think you’ve already mastered me as a subject. Ha ha… Q: Ha, ha – well, we’ll stop here then. A: Thank you. Q: Thank you! [End] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：今日是2004年5月24 日，我們在中央街193號，和我坐在一起是陳先生。陳先生，先講你的故事，可以講一下在那裡出生？ 陳：我在中國廣東省台山縣出世。 問：噢，你是台山人？ 陳：因為中國大陸內戰，我的家庭逼不得已逃到香港去。 問：你在那一年？ 陳：1950年代或1960年代，我記不清楚了。 問：都是在解放之後。 陳：跟著我的父母親去了台灣，在台灣長大及受教育，外祖父母早年移民美國，我自己於1976年移民來了紐約。 問：我們慢慢說，你為什麼不逗留在香港，而去台灣？ 陳：當時我仍少，可能家父為了經濟或政治問題，必須要去台灣，因為國民黨及共產黨處於敵對狀態，不得不去。 問：那時你多大？ 陳：2至3歲。 問：那你當時很小，真正是在台灣長大。 陳：是，在台灣長大及受教育，後來我父親在1974年移民，隨跟我在台灣服兵役，男子都要服兵役，服完兵役了來美國。 問：那麼他們又為什麼來美國呢？ 陳：我父母來，因為我祖父母先來了。又譬如如果我來，我也希望子女也隨即來。 問：故你父先來，你當兵，之後來美國。 陳：對。 問：你當兵多少年？ 陳：三年。 問：他們為什麼揀選紐約城市？ 陳：因為我祖父母揀選紐約。 問：他們為什麼揀紐約，為什麼不去加州呢？ 陳：那我就不清楚了。 問：移民到紐約那一年，你年紀多大？ 陳：1976年，24至25歲 問：那你來時是否已經懂英文？ 陳：在台灣時，我唸完High School(高中)，識一點點英文。 問：那來到後，你對美國有什麼印象？你來到一個陌生的地方，有沒有感到害怕？ 陳：我不怕，因為台灣社會比較親西方，世界比較開放，對於西方資訊有一定了解，不會覺得陌生。好像電影﹑電視﹑收音機﹑報張﹑雜誌都有講美國，所以我對西方資訊比較接受。譬如共產黨是個鐵幕，我不是說共產黨不好，但是比較封閉，所以會缺乏這方面的資訊，所以比較難於適應。從台灣來的，有了這種資訊，這個環境，比較容易接受。 問：之前你對美國的印象是從電視﹑書本或美國居民的家人寫信回來得知的美國生活。 陳：我得到的資訊，是美國是先進﹑自由﹑的國家，有一種美國夢。 問：你有個American dream(美國夢)，那是什麼？ 陳：那時年輕，有自己的抱負，男子就是能夠創造自己的事業，成家立業，自己完成。 問：在當兵之後，你夢想的事業是什麼？ 陳：我未來之前，不知道美國有那一種行業適合我，到來了之後，必須要看過，或者要試過，才可以知，因為事先沒有辦法估計得到。因為父母在製衣業就業，我也跟著入了這一行，因為受到父母的一點影響，對這方面有些少的認識。在美國紐約那個年代，華人的兩大行業，是餐館及製衣業，就業人數很多，我亦無意中加入製衣業， 問：你爸媽在唐人街做製衣廠？ 陳：對。 問：那他們當時幾多歲？ 陳：50至60歲。 問：到50至60歲才開始做衣廠，會不會適應很困難？ 陳：不會，因為華埠人口很集中，語言上比較容易溝通，譬如生活購物比較容易，有報張雜誌，有中國戲院，他們很容易外出走動。 問：你不經意就入了這行，有沒有考慮入大學？ 陳：有，我想過繼續讀書，但因為父母親要做工，兄弟姐妹又多，可能因為經濟問題，沒有辦法。 本來想一面讀書，一面做工，但當的的環境不能允許我，我必須要全職做工，我已經廿多歲，必須要獨立。 問：父母必來美國之前，在香港或台灣是做什麼工作呢？ 陳：我父親在台灣是公務員，我母親是家庭主婦。 問：你廿多歲便入這行，算是很年青了？ 陳：是的。 問：你初入行時，是做什麼的呢？ 陳：初入行時，男性通常是職位只有開份或吸衣。 問：開份，那是怎樣的呢？ 陳：開份是貨來時，將它分門別類，然後安排生產的流程，譬如一條褲的配件，有鈕﹑有標籤(label)﹑拉鍊﹑就將它分門別類發出去。這是屬於男性的工作。 問：即是你不是正式做車衣？ 陳：不是正式做車衣。 問：你入行之前有沒有正式受過訓練？ 陳：沒有正式受訓練。像半途出家，看見別人如何，自己就跟著做。 問：那是在1976年，當時薪金是多少，譬如一禮拜可以賺幾多錢？ 陳：如果一禮拜做五﹑六日，一禮拜可賺300元，那時算不錯，因為物價低，算過得去。 問：同時你廿多歲未有家庭負擔？ 陳：對。 問：你很快就入了這一行，你的美國夢有沒有感到失望，就像一來到就入車衣業？ 陳：每個人的美國夢都不同，我認為我的學識不夠，能力不夠，不能達到高標準，但能在美國安份守己，安居樂業，沒有大志就可以過得去。 問：你在這一行，多數是女人做車衣業，你喜歡這個職業嗎？ 陳：我喜歡這個職業，因為一個敬業樂群的信念，我尊重我的職業，我與同事又相處得好， 問：你在那時的工廠很多，你又同一行業很久，你是否時時轉廠，有好的薪金就跳槽？ 陳：我在製衣業廿多年，但只做了幾間廠，因為我和僱主的勞資關係很好， 僱主對員工關係很好，沒有必要跳槽，出一份力，拿一份收獲，沒有受到剝削。 問：Fall short？ 陳：不，我是在講國語，我的廣東話不是很好。 問：噢，你的廣東話很好。沒有想過轉行，一直做下去？ 陳：一直做下去。 陳：很多人都說車衣業走入尾聲，有些是因為政府的，有些是私人因素。政府的好像她訂立墨西哥條例，配額等，自己美國的生產能力少了，就業機會又少了。 問：你20多年來，有沒有失業？ 陳：有，譬如你這間廠的發衣商公司，沒有批出這麼多工作，我們就變成失業，但可領失業金，因有保險。 問：有沒有試過，一年兩年失業？ 陳：因為紐約怎樣淡也有少少工作做。 問：你來到紐約已經有家人在，你有沒有考慮搬到其他地方？ 陳：無。 問：有無因為天氣等因素，要搬？ 陳：無，都適應了。 問：你1976年來到，住在唐人街？ 陳：不，我住在曼哈頓。我做工就在唐人街。 問：那你是否一直在唐人街做工？那1976年你對唐人街的印象如何？ 陳：有好有不好，因為70年代有幫派，那是不好的，會影響社區安寧；好的方面，就是生活比較適應，是華人社區，衣食住行方便，而且較融合些。 問：你何時成立自己的家庭。 陳：1979年。 問：你認識太太，她在什麼行業？ 陳：她也在製衣業，她有BB之後不做工，一直是家庭主婦，因為她要take care(照顧)小孩子，打理家庭。 問：你有沒有加入工會？ 陳：有76年，加入製衣業，我便加入了23-25工會， 問：為什麼你要加入工會呢？ 陳：因為它有保障有福利。保障工人，有福利如醫療﹑假期各方面都很好。 問：那老闆有沒有因為你參加工會，要負擔多一些，他們有沒有叫你不要參加工會？ 陳：不會，因為美國是自由社會，不會不准你。 問：那麼僱主是什麼人？ 陳：我自己的僱主是中國人，有些來自香港，有些從大陸來。 問：那你廿多年在唐人街很多批，70年代從廣東台山來，80年代由香港來，這10年又很多中國福州人，你覺得這麼多類不同地方來的中國人在一起會有什麼問題嗎？大家合得來嗎？ 陳：以我經驗來講沒有碰過，工作上大家比較和氣，沒有什麼爭執，因為大家都是做工。聽講過有爭執，但也不是什麼大事情。 問：但新移民沒有身份的，他們願意收取低一點的薪金，形成競爭，你們老華僑是否覺得被搶去工作，被降低薪金？ 陳：我自己未遇到這事情，但聽聞別人說過，但很少這些情形。因為僱主要按照法例做事，不願冒險，如果僱主不顧條例，剝削了自己的員工，要負上責任，我想，我僱主不願這樣做。 問：你未有受過影響？ 陳：我在幾間衣廠做過，衣廠的制度很健全，例如消防設備﹑不准小孩入衣廠﹑很完善。 問：即法例很嚴格。那你一直到今天，你也不是做車衣，你是負責安排……？ 陳：不，我是做吸衣的。 問：噢，你現在做吸衣？ 陳：我一直做吸衣的。 問：英文叫做presser。因為我不是做車衣行業，我不明白製衣的程序，何時才交到你手做吸衣的？ 陳：發衣商發一條褲，先來一塊布，有褲頭，有袋，進入衣廠，女車衣工縫上褲頭﹑縫上拉鏈﹑打鈕﹑打腳，完成了一條褲的樣子，有些剪線把線尾清潔，clean up，到我們將褲用蒸氣，用steam，弄平，弄美麗，就完成一條褲。 問：那你是坐著吸衣，還是站著吸衣？ 陳：我是站著吸衣。因為這些工具的位置，要我站著做。 問：那你一天工作7小時，豈不是很疲倦？ 陳：習慣了就不覺倦。 問：你有沒有患上職業病？ 陳：沒有職業病。 問：聽很多女工說坐得多，手﹑腳都有問題，是不是？ 陳：還有些有腰骨痛。 問：那你是不是很健康？ 陳：主要是天熱的時候覺得太熱，因為那工作環境不允許有冷氣，因為有蒸氣，有冷氣也沒有用，但只要空氣流通就可以了。 問：加上其他的機器豈不是很熱？ 陳：可以這麼說，所以有風扇，有抽氣﹑抽風，使空氣流通，主要看廠房的結構及設計好不好了。 問：9/11時你在工廠做工，你的工廠在那裡？ 陳：在堅尼路，between Lafayette & Broadway(在拉菲逸及百老匯之間)。 問：是否近這座大廈？ 陳：是。 問：9/11對你的生活有什麼影響？ 陳：9/11主要對美國﹑紐約及唐人街都是很不幸的日子，我也身受其害，因為那天以後，我很多工作幾乎沒有了。因為交通﹑戒嚴等，衣廠不開門了，沒有工開，我們沒有收入，受到影響。 問：是否因為封街，貨物不能出入？ 陳：是的，貨物不能出入。和人心有問題，變得觀望，幾個禮拜不能開工。 問：那不是說沒有人做工，仍有人訂貨，有人做工，但是因為車不能進來？ 陳：是，因為我們是重災區的邊緣，我們受到交通管制。 問：那你們的工廠關閉了多欠？ 陳：有兩﹑三個禮拜。 問：那段時間，你做什麼？ 陳：我停了工作。沒有上班。 問：那你的收入如何？ 陳：沒有工開，就沒有收入。 問：在這情況下，工會有什麼幫助？ 陳：發生9/11這件事之後，全世界，全美國都幫助New Yorker，幫助紐約人，像我們沒有工作，是受害者，那些機構如紅十字會﹑安全線，還有工會，都提供幫忙﹑幫助。例如停了幾禮拜日沒有收入，有些人交不到租，沒有錢買食物，紅十字會首先幫助這些人。 問：陳先生你本人有沒有申請這些救濟金？ 陳：我有，因為我是受害者，9/11的受害者。 問：是否因為你的工廠暫時關門？ 陳：是暫停營業。 問：那你如何知道，是從新聞得知去機構申請還是其他？ 陳：從報張雜誌看到的，報張news(新聞)，朋友口中得知，或傳來消息。 問：你本身去申請了多少個地方？ 陳：我申請了9/11安全線，因為9/11安全線對受害者幫助很大。因為我是受害人。 問：雖然你不能住在這一區……， 陳：因為工作在災區的關係。例如，有現金資助，一次。後來又幫助申請醫療保險幾個月。後來舉辦培訓班，有13個禮拜，教授英文及電腦﹑及職業技能。 問：你選擇了那一樣？ 陳：英文及電腦都選擇。 問：那你現在的英文水準到那裡？ 陳：我會識聽一些英文，電腦我會按幾個鍵。 問：如果你搬到一個沒有華人的城市，你生活將有沒有困難？ 陳：以人生經驗來說，第一我不怕。最驚是心裡怕。如果不怕，在困難環境下，有意志，願意拚下去，就可以了。 問：那13個禮拜，你學了英文班及電腦，還有……？ 陳：跟著就是學製衣業的技能，好像我這行業是吸衣，我學到新的技術， 如何可以把產品做到最好，如何操作﹑如何運作，增加技考，不再用死方法，使體力透支。 問：但你已經做這行很久，要懂得的你應該已經學會了，那13個禮拜，你仍會學到新東西嗎？ 陳：是，那我這麼多年只是日日做工，沒有辦法接觸新資訊。 問：你們的工廠有沒有隔一段時間有training(訓練)？ 陳：沒有。 問：只是做，你用的方法10年，15年都不變？ 陳：沒有變。這6個禮拜我學到多些東西。 問：這幾年成衣業漸漸出國生產衣褲，你有沒有想過到轉行？ 陳：如果轉行，說得不好聽就是歲月不饒人，大年紀不適合，不能從頭做起，我不再是young man(年青人)了。 問：You don’t look old. (你看來不像老。) (被訪者笑。) 問：那你怕不怕這行業會沒有工作？ 陳：我對它很有信心，應該不會沒有工作。 問：是不是少些但不會完全消失？ 陳：就好像食物，不會斷。因為就好像人始終要食，正如服裝一樣，人一定要穿衣服。 問：但是，你的薪金怎樣也不會像中國一樣低？ 陳：那是說競爭能力了，我們在紐約的優勢是，我們的出產的衣服比較快，那是中國及東南亞追趕不及的，你同意嗎？ 問：即如果order (訂單)不大的，你可以在短時間之內完成，交貨，遠的地方都不能了。 陳：好像商業社會，差一天就差很遠了。 問：回去講那13個禮拜，除了training(訓練)還有什麼津貼？ 陳：那13禮拜，我們離開了工作，接受教育，一禮拜要讀35小時，這段時間不能做工，沒有薪金，9/11津貼我們一禮拜有300元。 問：這300元是否少於你在工廠的薪金？ 陳：不會，因為……。 問：你不是說70年代你300元一禮拜，現在也是300元一禮拜，你的生活怎麼會足夠？ 陳：因為上課這禮拜不是每天都上課，我利用早上，先做4﹑5小時才上課，我按時間表上課，故此我有300元津貼，另外有少許做工的收入， 問：你都仍然做工，不是完全停工？ 陳：是。 問：9/11之後你的工作停頓多久？ 陳：有二﹑三個禮拜完全停頓，之後慢慢復甦，就安定了，衣廠的進度慢慢恢復正常，然後有職業培訓班，這種教育。因為9/11很多衣廠關門，因為他們沒有辦法支撐下去。 問：那是因為貨不能進入？ 陳：也是因為衣廠必須負擔平日的開支，如租金﹑水電，但又沒有生產，那支持不下去。 問：但你的衣廠就沒有……？ 陳：我們老闆及工人之間比較體諒合作，同舟共濟。 問：當時13禮拜的老師是什麼人，中國人，或白人….？ 陳：有白人，也有中國人。 問：都有中國人？ 陳：中國老師用中文解釋。好像英文課就用外國人，好像電腦老師是外國人，至少我班的情況如是。 問：那當時你有沒有想到要轉行？有沒有鼓勵你們學新東西轉行？ 陳：都有，但他們知道學生的程度達不到，故此沒有提醒我們去轉行。好像電腦班，上了課後只能學得最基本的，所以不能因此而轉行。 問：你的電腦班，學了以後，對你的事業有沒有幫助？ 陳：目前來說，我沒有電腦這個需要，工作上沒有需要，這些如電腦學得的知識是私人的。 問：提供13個禮拜的training(訓練)是那一個機構？ 陳：23-25工會。 問：是工會自己開班，還是另一個機構負責教授？ 陳：好像是CWE(勞工教育聯盟)，我覺得那們的機構制度很好，準時上課，學完有考試。因為他們也要知道花了這麼多心血教授是否有效果。 問：你覺得13個禮拜足夠嗎？要不要繼續讀？ 陳：我覺得如不影響工作的話，我想繼續讀，因為人有求知的慾望，追求更好的知識。 問：救濟金取完後，你怎樣？ 陳：我返回工作單位，正常做工。 問：你之後一直做，還是少做了？ 陳：因為我們工廠有幾十人一起去上課，影響老闆的生產量少了，這13禮拜過後工人替老闆儘量追，我們對公司都有負擔。 問：你現在子女都長大，你會否希望他做你這行呢？ 陳：子女已經長大，大學畢業及就業了，他們不是在這行，好像大的女在會計師行做，小的在 Bloomingdale做，我覺得他們都幾好，做管理工作。 問：那你的美國夢或多或少在子女身上也實現了，是嗎？ 陳：因為中國人望子成龍，望女成鳳，今日他們都有些成就，我都有些安慰。 問：你想你會做多久才退休？ 陳：好說不好聽，做到不能做才退休。 問：我看你的健康還不錯，是不是？ 陳：一個人的身體健康很重要。 問：你在唐人街做事多年，你覺得唐人街幾十年來有什麼改變，除了人多了，馬路闊了，你覺得華人之間及華人社會有什麼改變？ 陳：變化很大，告訴你一個笑話，那時候，我剛來的時候從台灣來，那是的華埠人士都講廣東台山話，那時我在街上有人講國語，我會覺得稀奇，抬頭看看他是誰，因為真的很少人講國語。今日你不懂福州話人們就會覺得很奇怪，因為華埠很多福州人。20年的變化很大。 問：你覺得這麼不同的華人在唐人街是否團結？ 陳：我感覺到他們有他們的圈子。台山人有台山人的圈子，我覺得和他們交流比較容易。 問：那你覺得你屬於那個圈子，你又不是台山人？ 陳：我有自己的朋友，自己的partner(夥伴)，我人比較隨和。 問：除了工會，你有沒有參加其他的工會？ 陳：社團之類，沒有。 問：為什麼？沒有這需要，或者……？ 陳：我不知道，我覺得那是老華僑的圈子，我的感覺是這樣。 問：你不算老，但你在美國很久，你認為自己是……？ 陳：我也是老華僑，但我也有自己的圈子。除了工作，我和朋友禮拜日去釣魚，去玩。 問：我們已傾談了很久，陳先生，你覺得我們遺漏了什麼，有關生活﹑工作﹑私人看法……？ 陳：我講笑說，我覺得你已經很了解我了。哈哈， 問：哈哈，那我們就停在這裡。 陳：多謝。 問：Thank you! (完) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Shi Yun Chin 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Agnes Wong Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-05-21 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation garment worker Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is May 21st, and I am sitting with Agnes Wong at #193 Centre Street. Ms. Wong has 30 years of experience working in the garment industry in Chinatown. Let’s start our conversation with Ms. Wong’s background. Where are you from, Ms. Wong? WONG: I immigrated to America from Hong Kong. Q: Were you born in Hong Kong? WONG: I was born in mainland China. When I was about 3 or 4 years old, we came to Hong Kong because my parents were fleeing the Communist Party. Q: Where in mainland China was that? WONG: I was born in Guangdong’s Boluo, in mainland China. Q: So you moved to Hong Kong when you were very young. WONG: We came to Hong Kong when I was about 3 or 4 because mainland China was going through chaotic political changes, and it was being ruled by the Communist Party. So we came to Hong Kong. I grew up in Hong Kong, studied in Hong Kong, and lots of my relatives had already moved to Hong Kong to live. Q: What did your parents do in Hong Kong? WONG: My father helped manage a church. He worked at the church, and my mother was a housewife. Q: So why did they decide to immigrate to America? WONG: My parents didn’t immigrate to America. After I finished my education in Hong Kong, I worked for a few years, and by luck I met my husband. Originally, he had known my uncle, and had come to Hong Kong to seek him out. We were lucky in that everyone met each other. I became friends with him. Later, my aunt strongly encouraged us to start dating, and we finally fell in love and got married. Because he came from New York, in America, and had a job, after we got married and had some children, we immigrated to New York. Q: So your husband had been in New York for a long time? WONG: He worked in New York with my uncle. Q: Around what time did they arrive [in New York]? WONG: They came in the 60s, very early. On the other hand, my children and I came over in 1973, no, it was Easter of 1974 that we came. Q: Did you work in Hong Kong? WONG: Yes, I did. I did some different jobs. In the beginning, I was a secretary for a weaving factory, as a counter. Those yarn factories produced lots of yarn every day, and I calculated the workers’ wages, and kept track of how much product they produced each day. Later, the number of factories in Hong Kong increased a bit. The Japanese started establishing factories in Hong Kong, and some electronics factories were created. At that time, one of my classmate’s brothers acted as a trainee in a Japanese electronics factory because he was a good student, and later he advanced up to the position of engineer. I worked for several years at his factory. This brother of my classmate was extremely advanced in electronics, and later on he did a joint venture with the Japanese, opening a factory in China. He did a great business there, and was able to financially establish that business. Q: So you came to New York on Easter of 1974. At that time, how old were you? WONG: 27 or 28 years old. Q: Did you understand English? WONG: You could say I understood English. I had finished high school and had studied at an English-language academy, a women’s academy. Q: So as soon as you came to America, you went straight to New York? WONG: That’s right. Q: What were your thoughts of New York before coming to America? WONG: I originally didn’t have any opinions about America, just that I would be changing my surroundings. As soon as I came to New York, I saw that it was a huge city, and that it was prosperous, just like Hong Kong, and that I could study things here, start a new life, a new environment, learn new things, like that. Q: So your husband was always in New York. Did you ever think of moving to another city, like in California or some other state? WONG: I never thought about that. Q: When you first arrived, where did you live? WONG: When I first arrived, I lived for about a year at #125 Henry Street in Chinatown. I thought the place was pretty small. Later we bought a place to live in Brooklyn. Q: What were your impressions of Chinatown when you first arrived? WONG: At that time, I thought that Chinatown was far behind, it wasn’t as advanced as I had imagined, there weren’t as many people and it wasn’t as flourishing. There was work, but it still wasn’t my ideal location. Hee hee! Q: So it wasn’t what you had imagined. WONG: It wasn’t the kind of place I had been hoping to find. Q: What had you imagined America to be like before you came? WONG: When I was in junior high school, we had an English teacher from Britain. He was also an assemblyman in Hong Kong, and he said: “When you grow up, if you have a chance to go to any cities in America, then go see the Hudson River while you are in New York, and the skyscrapers. You are young enough that, if you have that kind of chance, it would be great to develop in that environment.” Maybe it was what he said, because I thought that if I had the chance, it would be great to develop myself over there. So I had envisioned America as being very advanced, very prosperous, with lots of job opportunities, and that it was a pretty good place. But after I came, I only saw Chinatown, and I realized that it wasn’t the New York I had imagined. Q: So you didn’t have any chance to see other cities? WONG: No. Of course, later on I changed my views, and I saw that New York was a very prosperous and advanced place, that it was an economic and fashion capital, that the population and opportunities to travel were all very good, and at that time prices were very cheap and the work opportunities were good, the hours were really good, everything was great. It was just a little bit foreign to me. At that time I had thought about doing some job for [non-Chinese] Americans, but they didn’t want to accept my diploma. They insisted on a college diploma. Or else they asked if I was a citizen, and how long I had been in America. I went to a number of American jobs and didn’t succeed. But it wasn’t an option to sit around and not work. I thought about going to study, to increase my knowledge. At that time, Chinatown only had two organizations where you could study. I asked around at both places, but neither seemed to match my level. It was all very basic English, and it didn’t match my level, considering that I had completed Form 4 in Hong Kong. So I didn’t pursue studying at any other school. Q: How did you start work in the factory? WONG: A relative of mine on East Broadway opened a garment factory. It’s a little past today’s 888 Restaurant, and he had started the garment factory on the second floor. He said: “If you have free time, how about coming to work at my garment factory?” I said, “But I don’t know sewing, and I have never sewed before in my life!” He said, “You’re this smart, you’ll learn quickly.” I said, “How can I count on sewing to make a living when I don’t even know how to hold a needle! How can I sew?” He said, “You’re fine, you’re fine, you’ll learn quickly.” Later on, I tried it. At that time the working hours were very good. We started at nine and left at six, and if we worked on Saturdays, we earned overtime pay, there were long vacation times, and there was special holiday money on top of it. At the time the standard of living was very low. Q: But your husband also worked? WONG: Yes, he was a cook in a restaurant. He was the head chef, and his income was really good. So we were only in Chinatown one year, and then we bought a place in Brooklyn. And at the garment factory, I learned very quickly to make pants, and immediately joined a union. While I was working at the factory, an agent came to the factory and said, “If you work in this profession, you have to join the union.” I said, “OK.” Q: Why did you want to join the union? WONG: Because the agent told me, if you’re living in America doing this kind of work, you have to join the union. Once you join the union, the union will protect the workers’ benefits. So all my fellow workers joined, and there was nobody who didn’t join. Just as long as you were a worker or colleague, then you could join, and if you manufactured clothes you joined the union for clothing manufacturers. So I joined the 105 union for clothing workers. Q: Did you always do sewing? WONG: I never understood how to cut it, because when the clothing material came, it was already cut into pieces, and Westerners [i.e. non-Chinese] sent it over, and we just did work on that. Q: Was your boss a Chinese person? WONG: All of my bosses were Chinese. Q: So how did you feel about the environment, working in a garment factory? WONG: Back then, the conditions in the garment factories were passable, but they didn’t provide air conditioning, they had fans. The boss treated the workers well, very friendly. The boss appreciated your feelings. Of course they were good to me, and they were also very good to the average worker. Even outside of the relationship between the employer and the employees, there was a special kind of good feeling. It was great. Q: So did pretty much all the people working with you join the union? WONG: 100% joined the union. There was nobody who didn’t join the union. Everyone joined it. Q: Did the boss like you joining the union? WONG: He supported it. It was the boss who told the workers to join the union, not the workers who said they wanted to join the union. The boss called for the workers to join the union, saying, “You should join the union. Having a union is good. The union will give you Blue Cross, you’ll get pay if you take days off, and there’s lots of things that are good for you.” Q: So the boss encouraged you to join? WONG: Yes, the boss encouraged us to join. Q: Speaking from the boss’ perspective, did he have to pay you more money after you joined the union? WONG: Oh, at that time the money for worker’s benefits and protection was partially paid by the employee and partly paid by our boss. But at that time the boss was doing very well, and so the boss was willing to share some of the money with us. He wasn’t stingy, he was happy about it. We produced lots of clothing every day, so he felt he ought to give the workers a share. Q: How much did you make every week? WONG: At that time, we worked 36 hours a week, five days a week. We usually didn’t work on Saturdays. At most we’d work 40 hours, because we did piece work, rather than being paid by the hour. If you work by the hour, then in one week you could make 300 to 350 dollars, depending on how much work the boss gives you, all according to the hours worked. But we didn’t have a minimum salary, we didn’t have minimum pay, we got paid according to how much we did. Q: In your case, were you a fast or slow worker? WONG: I did piece work, and at that time I was still young, and my hands and feet were fast, so every week I made between 200 and 250 dollars. I was asked by Mr. Wang, a friend of mine who worked in a bank, “Would you like to get a job? You can come work at my bank.” I asked, “How much salary will the bank pay me each week?” He said, “When you first start out, you can make between 150 and 160 dollars a week. I thought, “That’s all? Working in the garment factory is better.” Q: Was it very difficult working as a seamstress? Your hands, your feet, and sitting while doing all those movements? WONG: At first I really wasn’t used to it, and so it felt very unpleasant, but because every Friday, after I got my pay, I could buy so much with just fifty dollars, that made me very happy and I didn’t even think it was hard. While I was working I could chat very pleasantly about personal things with my colleagues next to me, and it didn’t seem so difficult, not like at first, when I felt I didn’t understand anything, and wondered how I was going to make it. Q: But together with your husband, your income was quite good? WONG: We really had a wealthy lifestyle then. Every month I made over a thousand dollars, and together with my husband, we made about 1400 or 1500 a month. It was really good. Q: Did you keep doing it, or did you change careers? WONG: I kept at it. In 1979, I switched to work at the union in Lafayette. That union was different, because at that time a number of the seamstress unions were separate. The seamstress unions included the 23-25 branch, the 105 branch, and the 199 branch. My old branch was the 105, and after I changed work, my union switched from 105 to the 23-25 branch. Now it’s UNITE. Q: About how many members are in UNITE today? WONG: UNITE has about, well, nowadays they have only about 1,000 members in Chinatown to be accurate. Before, when they were at their peak, they had about 10,000 members. Q: Do most of the new immigrants join the union? WONG: New immigrants go half and half. When they start work at a garment factory, about half join, and about half decide to think about it first, think about whether or not they should join. Because the economic situation is very difficult at first, and they feel they want to save everything they can, they don’t want to pay the union dues. Or they might just want to think it over more clearly, understand whether it has a benefit for them, before making a decision about whether or not to join. Q: Can anybody join, or do you need to have legal status before you can join? WONG: Anybody can join, there are no restrictions, and you can join even if you don’t have legal status, because the union protects not just the rights of those with status, but also protects the rights of those without it. A lot of workers nowadays, especially those without legal status, they don’t understand that you can join even without status, and so they don’t dare join the union. They’re afraid of government connections, and they’re afraid of creating trouble. That’s a big mistake. Actually, they are also immigrants. To put it another way, just last week, the members of the union’s political committee met with senators and we presented five demands. The first was a New York Health Plan. The second was a minimum wage, that is, to increase the minimum wage. Q: [Are you referring to the English phrase] “minimum wage”? WONG: Yes, the minimum wage. We want it increased from a little over five dollars to seven dollars per hour. The third demand was the “Empire Zone.” If business move from wealthier areas to older communities, then they should gain tax breaks, and this would create a lot more employment opportunities. Q: How much is the monthly union membership fee? WONG: The monthly membership dues are $23.20, and the dues for a half year are $139.20. Each time people pay the union dues, I write down how much they paid. I pay half a year at a time, but some people prefer to pay every month. Q: You said that people without legal status in this country fear that if they join the union then the government will come and look for them? WONG: Actually, it’s not like that. Actually, if someone without status joins the union, then the union will demand on their behalf that the government pass laws, that they should change the laws, saying that new immigrants to America are also living and spending here, and that we wish the government will pass a law that allows them to gain legal status, to gain a green card or temporary residency which they can later change to a green card. We are also constantly meeting with congressmen to discuss these issues. You know how it is with making laws -- you need many years of demands and battles before you can “reap the rewards.” Like right now, the battle for children’s health insurance, it’s been a matter of going to representatives and senators many times, calling upon them and repeatedly making requests, before we finally got a result. Q: You said that one of your demands to Washington is an increase in the minimum wage. Do you fear that right now -- so many of the garment factories in Chinatown have already closed because they can’t compete with the labor in third world countries like China, because it’s so cheap there – do you think that if you raise the salary of the American worker, these factories might not be able to continue existing, and that the opportunities to work will decrease even further? WONG: This is also a problem, because frankly, the workers’ salaries in China are very low. Most businessmen look for cheap labor, in order to reduce their costs. In America, labor is expensive, and it’s impossible to deny that we lose some work opportunities. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t continue in this line of work, that they can’t operate any more. The ones that want to leave have already left. But New York still needs some garment factories producing here in New York. It seems that some seasonal clothing needs to be sent to market quickly, and sometimes things produced abroad aren’t up to standard and can’t be sent back to China to be fixed. Sending it back and forth costs a lot of time, so they have it done right away in New York. So the garment factories still have a future, they can still make it. If you say that the high wages in New York will impact the garment industry, well, lots of American cities have wages higher than those in New York. Why does New York have such a high cost of living, rent, food, phone, gas, everything all together, and I’ve also heard that after Labor Day, it’s going to get even more expensive. And the wages are always low, and don’t match the cost of living, and if it can’t match the cost of living, people will all move to other places; if people move to other places, there are no workers, and there’s no businesses, and without business, there’s no work, so where will the business opportunities come from? Where will the businessmen and their businesses come from? New York is a place where people are clustered together, so it’s easy to find workers. If people are looking for workers, it’s easy to find them in New York. And actually, it’s also easy to find work in New York, especially manual labor or low-level work. It’s much easier to find that. A lot of organizations and such don’t even ask you if you have legal status when they’re looking for workers, and they’re willing to hire you. This is a great benefit for those who have just arrived in this country. Q: When 9/11 took place, you were still working in Chinatown? WONG: Yes. Q: Then did 9/11 influence your factory? WONG: Yes, the impact was huge. The factory simply didn’t have any clothing materials coming in, because the vehicles weren’t allowed into New York. They weren’t allowed in. The workers had already cut the fabric but they couldn’t send in the clothing material. We stopped work, and only collected unemployment. Q: How long did you stop work? WONG: For 3 months. Q: So at that time, you didn’t have any income at all? WONG: We didn’t have any income at all. We just collected unemployment. Q: Did you collect any of the 9/11 economic assistance money? WONG: Personally, I didn’t go get any. A lot of my colleagues went to apply, because after 9/11 there were many months, about 3 or 4 months when there was no work, and later, when the factories opened, there was still very little work to do. They would typically be open only one or two days a week. A lot of time they were just sitting doing nothing, and whenever a small order arrived, they immediately began production. You couldn’t do anything about it. You just sat there not doing anything for so long, and so when I saw that there were things to study, I went and signed up for them, for the 9/11 courses. I studied computers and English. Q: Why didn’t you go apply for some of the economic assistance? WONG: I thought, since I immigrated to this place a lot earlier, I thought that I could get by. If I could support myself financially, then don’t worry about it, and just leave this opportunity to others. Maybe there are some people who have just arrived and don’t have any economic foundation and need to pay rent, and who have young children. They should try to get help, and if the factories aren’t open then they don’t have any income. As far as we go, we already have our own home, we worked for many years, and we could get by and survive, so we didn’t feel like going to too much trouble. So I didn’t seek anything of the economic nature [i.e. economic assistance]. Later on I saw that a lot of people were taking courses, and other coworkers said to me, “Why don’t you go study? You can go study, and it won’t affect anything else.” So I went and studied the final group of classes, it turned out to be the last one. Q: When was that? WONG: In July or August of 2003, I finally went to study, and altogether I studied about 6 weeks. Q: I heard people say that the classes were for 13 weeks. WONG: I studied for 6 weeks, then studied again for 6 weeks, and the entire length of time was 13 weeks. Q: What did you choose to study? WONG: I choose computers and English. Q: Why did you study English? I see that your English is already very fluent, isn’t it? WONG: No, my English is of no use. Lots of times I can’t express what I want to say. Lots of times I have to think about it first, and I often need to ask someone good at English to help me, ask them “Is this the right way to say something? Is that OK?” I finally force myself to express a little of my thoughts, but my English isn’t that good. Q: Then do you feel that 13 weeks of classes were useful? WONG: They were very useful. First I learned some simple computer functions, and learned a little English. They taught very simple superficial stuff, so we couldn’t learn a lot. Q: Where did you study? WONG: I studied at City Hall. Q: And which organization arranged it? WONG: I’m not really clear on which organization it was. I think they said it was the 9/11 Fund. Q: And did you see information about it in the newspaper? WONG: No. One of my coworkers was studying there, and introduced me. I think they said it was the 9/11… Q: What kind of people were most of the teachers? WONG: The majority was White, but there were also one or two Chinese. They were Taiwanese students, studying in the university here. Q: Do you think they understood your circumstances? WONG: They all understood really well. During classes they asked us some questions, and my colleagues all answered very honestly. Q: Do you think that those 13 weeks of studying were useful, outside of getting a little money? WONG: Of course it was useful. My fellow workers had spent their whole lives without ever studying, and they didn’t even know the alphabet. After studying for 13 weeks, at a minimum they could write their own names, their address, to say their own address and where they work, their phone number, and so on. Q: You learned very basic English, so it wasn’t useful to your work…? WONG: I think that it was useful to me personally. Q: So it wasn’t useful towards your work, but it was useful to you personally. Have you ever thought of changing careers? WONG: Up until now, I have never thought about changing careers. Q: Is that because you feel that you are too old and no longer have that chance, or is it because you like your work now? WONG: I still like the sewing work that I do now, and that’s one reason. The second reason is because I’m older. Going to look for work when you’ve already reached the age of retirement – people will want to use someone younger, they won’t consider using someone who’s about to retire. So I didn’t think about changing careers. Q: And your factory closed for four months, is that right? WONG: Yes. Q: And later, did it return to normal? WONG: Later the factory was continuously open. Recently it’s become a bit busier. Q: And have you always worked at the same company? WONG: No. During my time I’ve changed garment factories many times, and during these decades the change has been huge. I’ve worked in about four or five factories. I’ve had a good, friendly relationship with every boss. When some bosses stopped [running the factories] and took up some other business, they were succeeded in the management by their children. Q: And do you hope that your children will follow you in this career? WONG: Of course not. But I have two sons who are working in the restaurant business, but they’re not doing it in New York, they’re working in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Q: What do you think is the biggest change in Chinatown? WONG: The biggest change is the change in population. Back then, rent in Chinatown was really cheap. The rent in 1974 was 120 dollars, and that was for a place with two rooms, a kitchen and a bathroom, even though the rooms weren’t that big. Back then I rented a place for 135 dollars, and then after a year the price was raised to 150 dollars. The monthly rent for a place with two rooms or more reached 180 dollars, and nowadays of course, it is many times more than that. Back then, there weren’t so many people selling vegetables and groceries on the roadsides. Back then everything was sold inside stores. There weren’t so many teahouses and restaurants, not to mention the great extent to which it has expanded, Chinatown has expanded as far as Delancey. Few people went that far, even Bowery, some workers selling jewelry there, at night they didn’t want to go by, they were afraid to go past there, and some workers said, “Hey, don’t go there, those non-Chinese will grab you, there’s people who drive cars to come and grab you and take you away!” Back then the women really knew nothing. They told these stories and got so scared! Q: You’ve been here for such a long time. Are you satisfied with your life here? WONG: Oh…. I think that I didn’t make the wrong choice. I think that in America, especially life in New York -- New York is a place with very convenient transportation. I can have a car, but also I have the freedom to not have a car, because public transportation goes everywhere. As far as family life goes, personally, I have a home, I live very comfortably, because I entered a career in the sewing union, and at the union I’ve constantly been learning new things, met a lot of friends, and I’ve learned a lot from my friends, the school and from my union organization during the summer. I’ve participated in lots of different activities, I joined the Chinese Labor Union of Women, the Asian Pacific Association of Labor Alliance, the worker’s organization, and I’ve also joined some political activities. I really like listening to other people talk. I think when I was younger I wanted to study more but didn’t have the chance. After coming to New York and entering a career as a seamstress, joining the union allowed me to take lots of different classes. Even though I spent quite a bit of money and time, my knowledge of society has increased a lot. So I am very satisfied, and I feel very happy. Before I arrived, I had thought that once I got old I would go back to Hong Kong and live out my life there. However, my siblings now tell me, “Hong Kong housing prices are very low now, so go back! In America, housing prices have become very expensive, so if you sold your place and went back there to live, you could retire already.” No way, I answered, I want to return to New York to live. At that time, when I was on the airplane going on vacation, I heard the song, “New York, New York, I love New York.” I really liked it. When I came back here, I felt that this is really my home, and I’ve already got lots of friends here. Q: Thank you very much. You told us so many of your stories and experiences in Chinatown. WONG: Thank you very much, Ms. Lan, you’re too kind to me. Q: Thank you very much, Ms. Wong. WONG: Thank you. [end of session] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：今日是5月21 日，我和王太坐在中央街193號，王太已經在唐人街車衣廠做了30多年的經驗。我們現在就從王太的背景開始說起。王太，你是從那裡來的？ 王：我從香港移民來美國。 問：你是在香港出生的？ 王：我是在中國大陸出生的，大約3﹑4歲時，我父母因逃避共產黨的關係，來到香港生活。 問：是在大陸的那裡？ 王：是在大陸的廣東博羅出生。 問：你很小時候就去了香港？ 王：大約是3﹑4歲時左右，來到香港，因為當時大陸變色，由共產黨統治，所以我就到了香港，所以我在香港長大，在香港讀書，很多親戚亦從大陸到香港生活。 問：在香港你父母做什麼？ 王：我爸爸在香港一個幫助打理一間教會，在教會做事，我媽媽是一個家庭主婦。 問：那他們為什麼要想到移民美國來？ 王：我爸爸媽媽沒有移民來美國。是我在香港讀完書，做了幾年工作，一個機緣認識到我先生，他本來認識我叔叔，到香港探我叔叔，我們有緣大家相見，我和先生做了朋友，後來我嬸嬸極之贊成我們開始結交，愛情道路最後成功了，結了婚。因為他來自美國紐約，有工作的，結婚後有幾個小孩子後，我們就移民到紐約。 問：你先生一早來了紐約？ 王：他和我叔叔在紐約一起做工的。 問：在那一個時代來到的？ 王：他們是在1960年代來到的，是很早期來的。我和小孩子則是1973年，不，是1974年復活節來到的。 問：你在香港有沒有做工？ 王：我有，做過幾份工，最初時在織造廠做書記，即是計數。那些紗廠每日出產很多紗，又計算工人的工資，又記錄它每日的產量。後來香港的工業廠多一些，日本人開始在香港設廠，有些電子廠。那時我同學一位哥哥在一間很大的日本電子廠當學徒，因為他肯學，後來升到相當於工程師的職位，我在他廠幫助工作了幾年。這位同學的哥哥在電子方面很發達，後來和日本合資在中國開電子廠， 做了很大的生意，將生意企業化。 問：你在1974年復活節來到紐約，當時你幾多歲？ 王：27﹑28歲。 問：那你懂英文嗎？ 王：我當時算是懂英文，讀完高中，我是唸英文書院的，是「書院女」。 問：一來到美國就到紐約？ 王：是的。 問：未來美國前，你對紐約的第一印象是怎樣的？ 王：我原來對美國沒有什麼印象，只不過叫做轉換一下環境，一到美國紐約，一見是大都會，和香港一樣都是很繁榮，或者我在這裡學到東西，開始新生活，新的環境，新的學習，這個意思。 問：那你先生一直在紐約城市，有沒有想過搬到其他城市如加州或其他州？ 王：一直沒有考慮過。 問：你初來時，在紐約的那裡住？ 王：我初來時，在唐人街亨利街125號住了一年左右，覺得地方是小了一點，後來在布碌崙買屋住。 問：你初來時，對唐人街有什麼印象？ 王：當時覺得唐人街很落後，不是我想像一般的發達，和人口較少，不是很興旺，是有工做，但亦不是我理想中的地方。嘻嘻！ 問：都不是你想像。 王：不是我想要尋求的目標的地方。 問：那你未來美國之前，想像的美國是怎麼樣的？ 王：我讀中學的時候，教英文的老師是英國人，是香港的議員，他說：「當你們長大的時候或者要到美國的城市，你在紐約的時候要見到Hudson River(赫德遜河)﹑摩天大樓，你們這麼年輕，會有這樣的機會，到那裡發展也不錯。」可能是那一句話，我覺得如有機會，在那裡的發展也會不錯。所以我心目中美國很發達﹑很繁榮﹑很多工作機會，都幾好。但是來到後，當時只見到唐人街，所以知道不是心目中的紐約。 問：沒有機會看到其他的城市？ 王：未，那當然後來改觀了，知道紐約是很繁榮發達的，是金融﹑時裝中心，人口﹑旅遊各方面都很好，當時物價亦很便宜， 工作很好，時間很好，樣樣都好，只是陌生了一點。 　　當時我曾想找一些老番(美國人)的工作，但他們不是叫我取出文憑，便要大學文憑，或是問我是否公民？來美國多久了？我見了幾份美國工都不成功，坐著不做工又不是辦法。 　我曾經想讀書，增廣一下知識，華埠當時只有兩間機構可以讀書，我問過，覺得都不適合我的水平，那些都是初級的英文，對於我完成香港的Form 4(中四)程度的人並不適合，所以我沒有尋求其他的學校去唸書。 問：你怎樣進入衣廠工作呢？ 王：我有位親戚在East Broadway(東百老匯)開衣廠的，在現在的怡東酒樓再過去一點，在二樓開衣廠，他說：「你有空，不如到我的衣廠做工。」我說：「我不懂車衣，從來未車過衣的！」他說：「你這麼聰明，一學就會。」我說：「我怎可靠車衣揾食，我甚至連拿針都不懂，怎麼會車衣呢？」他說：「行行行，你很快會學會。」後來即便試一試。當時工作時間都很好，返九時，放六時，星期六開工有overtime pay(超時工資)補薪，有大假期，有特別的假期錢加上去，當時生活水平很低。 問：但你先生也做工？ 王：有，他在餐館做廚師，他是頭廚，收入相當不錯呀。所以我們只在唐人街一年，很快就在布碌崙買屋。 那我在衣廠做，很快，才個多月學曉車褲，立即加入工會。我在工廠工作時有經紀上廠，說：「你在這行業要加入工會。」我說：「好。」 問：你為何要加入工會？ 王：因為我聽見經紀說，你在美國生活，做這個行業要加入工會，加入工會後工會會維護工人的利益。所以個個工友都參加，沒有人不參加的，只要你是工人工友，便可以參加，如你製衣工人便加入製衣工人工會，那我加入105工會，車衣工會工人的工會。 問：你一直做車衣的？ 王：我一直不懂裁剪，因為衣料來到的時候，已是一塊一塊cut(裁剪) 好，西人(美國人)送過來，我們只是加工。 問：你的老闆是唐人？ 王：我的老闆都是唐人。 問：那你覺得做車衣工廠的環境好不好？ 王：那時車衣工廠的環境過得去，但不會給你冷氣，有風扇，老闆待工人不錯，很友善，老闆有感激你的心情。他們對我當然很好，對一般工友都很好，除了僱主和僱員之間，還有一份特別好的感情，很好。 問：和你一起做工的人差不多大部份都加入工會？ 王：百分之一百參加了工會，沒有人不參加工會，個個都參加工會的。 問：那老闆喜不喜歡你們參加工會？ 王：喜歡，當時是老闆叫工友參加工會，不是工人叫參加工會。老闆呼籲工友參加工會，說：「你要參加工會，有工會好，工會給你藍十字，放假有假期錢，有很多對你有好處的東西。」 問：老闆都鼓勵你們參加？ 王：是，老闆鼓勵工友參加。 問：你們加入工會，對老闆而言，是會多花金錢的？ 王：哦，以前維護工人的福利金，是發衣商交一部份福利金，老闆給一部份，是這樣分出來錢來的，但那時候老闆環境好，老闆願意分一部份出來，不計較，很開心，既然每日出衣很多，覺得應該給工人一份。 問：你每星期賺到幾多錢？ 王：那時候(1974年)一星期做36小時，做5天工，很少星期六開工的，頂多做40小時，因為我們是按件計工人，不是和老闆計鐘的。 和老闆計鐘的，一星期有300至350元，看老闆給你多少工，就按鐘計。但我們車位沒有底薪，沒有minimum pay，做多少給多少。 問：你做工屬於快或慢？ 王：我是屬於piece work(按件計)，當時後生，手腳都快，當時每星期賺200元至250元，一位朋友在銀行做經理的，叫王先生，他問：「你想不想找工作做？可以來我的銀行做。」我問：「你的銀行一星期給我多少人工？」他說：「初來我們銀行時，一星期大約是150至160元。」我心想：「這麼少，都是做衣廠較好。」 問：你做衣車工是不是很辛苦，手呀﹑腳呀﹑坐得久等動作？ 王：我起初時真的不習慣，覺得辛苦，但是因為每個星期五，取得薪金後，只要50元就買得到很多東西，開心時，就連辛苦也不覺得，做事時又可和旁邊的工友有傾有講，很開心，不覺得太難，不似起初時覺得我什麼都不懂，以為如何做得來。 問：但你和先生收入加起來，生活都幾好？ 王：當時的生活相當富裕了，那時我覺得一個月有千多元收入，我倆夫婦加起來有1400至1500元，是相當好的了。 問：你一直做下去，沒有想過轉行？ 王：是的，一直做下去。1979年我轉到拉菲逸街這邊的工會做，這邊的工會不同，因為當時有幾個車衣分會，車衣工會有23-25分會﹑105分會﹑199分會。我以前的工會是105，轉工後，工會由105轉到23-25分會，即現在的成紡聯合車衣工會UNITE。 問：現在的UNITE大約有多少members (成員)？ 王：現在的UNITE大約嘛，準確的數字在唐人街只有數千，以前最高峰時期有一萬多member(會員)。 問：現在的新移民多數有沒有參加工會？ 王：現在的新移民一半一半，當他們入車衣廠做時，一半會參加，一半會先考慮，想一下是否應該參加，因為初來時經濟基礎不好，覺得可以慳一個仙就一個仙，不想交會費，或看清楚一點，看是否對自己有益處，才決定是否參加。 問：是否任何人都可以參加，或者有身份時才可以參加？ 王：任何人都可以參加，沒有限制，就算沒有身份也可以參加的，因為工會除了維護有身份人士權益，也維護無身份人士權益。現在一部份工友，特別是沒有身份的人，他們不明白沒有身份也可以參加，就不敢參加工會，怕有政治性，又怕惹上麻煩。那是很誤解的。事實上，他們也是移民，相反來說，工會在上星期，我們和工會政治部職員會見senator(參議員)， 提出五項要求。第一項是New York Health Plan，第二項是最低工資，增加最低工資。 問：Minimum Wage? 王：對，Minimum Wage。由5元多加至7元多。第三是，將Empire Zone(帝國轄區)，如商業從旺區搬到舊區，可獲稅務減免，製造更多就業機會。 問：每月交會費多少？ 王：工會會費每月是23元2角，半年會費是139.20。每次交會費他們說多少我就寫多少。我一交交半年會費，但有些人喜歡按月交費。 問：你說沒有身份的人以為參加了工會，政府會來找他？ 王：事實上不是這樣，事實若沒有身份的人參加了工會，工會為這些人要求政府通過法例，該法例說新移民來到美國，他們一樣在這裡生活及消費，希望政府通過法例，讓他們取得合法身份，獲得綠卡或暫時合法居留，以後轉綠卡。我們也時時見國會議員討論這些問題，你知道立法的事，要多年的要求及爭取，才可取得[成績]。像現在爭取得的兒童保健，是向多次參議員﹑眾議員見面傾偈，才有結果的。 問：你說其中一個要求華盛頓的，是增加minimum wage (最低工資)，你怕不怕因為現在在唐人街很多車衣都關閉，因為不能和第三世界國家的人工相比，如中國等，那些國家太便宜，你覺不覺得如提高美國工人薪金，這些工廠不能生存下法，工作機會還會更少呢？ 王：這也是一個問題，因為事實，中國大陸勞工工資低，做生意的人大部份尋求廉價勞工，降低成本。美國國內是貴人工，無可否認失去了一些工作機會。但那不代表這個行業不能做下去，他們不可以經營。他們要搬的都已經搬走了，但紐約依然需要一些製衣的行業留在紐約做，好像有一些seasonal(季節性)的衣服一定要趕上市，或者有些在外地做得不合格的，不可以運回中國修改，因為一來一回花費時間，要馬上在紐約修改。所以製衣行業仍然有前景的，仍有可為。如說紐約提高工資會影響製衣行業，你看很多美國城市人的工資都比紐約高，為什麼紐約的生活費高，房租﹑食住﹑電話﹑gas(煤氣)費，什麼都加，聽說labor day(勞動節)過後，又會漲價。那麼工資一直低，跟不上生活指數；若跟不上生活指數，人們會遷移到別的地方；若遷移到別的地方，沒有工﹑則沒有商，工商工商，沒有工做，何來商機？商人何來生意？紐約是人口集中的地方，容易找到人手，人們找工也想在紐約容易找工，而事實上紐約容易找工做，特別是勞工及中下層的工作，是比較容易找工。甚至很多機構等人用時，都不問有沒有身份，願意聘請。這對於初到貴境的人來說很有利。 問：在9/11時你仍然在唐人街做工？ 王：是的。 問：那9/11有沒有影響你的工廠呢？ 王：有，影響很大，工廠簡直沒有衣源，因為車子不准進入紐約市，不准入。Jobber(發衣商)cut(裁)了衣亦沒有辦法送入衣源，我們停了工，惟有領失業(金)。 問：你停了工多久？ 王：都有3個月。 問：那時間一點收入都沒有？ 王：一點收入都沒有，我們就領取失業(金)。 問：你有沒有領取9/11的救濟金？ 王：我本人沒有去取，我們的工友很多都有去申請，因為9/11之後，幾個月，3﹑4個月都沒有工開，後來有工開，但工作數量很少，一星期往往只開工一﹑兩天，有很多時間閒坐，有少數目的訂單來，就馬上要開工起貨。沒有辦法，閒坐那麼久，看見有書讀，就去報名，學9/11的course(課程)，學電腦英文等。 問：你為什麼不去申請救濟金？ 王：我覺得，可能我移民的日子比較長，我覺得自己過得去，自己的經濟可以維持就算了，將機會留給其他人，譬如他們初來到沒有經濟基礎又要租屋，孩子又少，他們應尋求幫助，他們沒有工開就沒有一點收入了。我們話到底有自己屋，又工作了多年，自己可以應付生活，自己過得去，不想搞太多事，所以我沒有尋求經濟方面(的援助)，後來見這樣多人都讀書，其他工友又說：「為什麼你不去讀，你可以去讀的，不會影響你的其他方面的。」那我就唸了last最後一期，原來是最後一期。 問：在什麼時候呢？ 王：2003年7,8月我才去讀書，總共唸了好像6星期。 問：我聽講是唸13個星期的？ 王：我讀完6星期，再讀6星期，即前後13個星期。 問：你選擇讀了什麼呢？ 王：我選擇讀電腦及英語。 問：為什麼讀英文？我見你的英文很流利，是嗎？ 王：不是，我的英文不濟事的，很多時心目中想講的表達不出來，很多時，要在家中先想，又要請教英文很好的人幫手，問是否這樣講？可以嗎？才敢勉強表達一些意思，總的不算行。 問：那你覺得13星期的課程有沒有用？ 王：很有用，第一學曉電腦上一些簡單的用途，英文方面學到一點點，他們教得很淺，學不到很多。 問：你是在那裡學習的？ 王：是在City Hall(大會堂)學的。 問：是那一個公司組織的？ 王：那一家公司，我不太清楚，好像說是9/11Fund(基本)。 問：你在報紙看到的？ 王：不，是一位工友正在那裡唸書，介紹我的，好像說是9/11……。 問：老師大部份是什麼人？ 王：大部份是白人，都有一兩個唐人，是台灣學生，在這裡唸大學。 問：你覺得他們了解你的情形嗎？ 王：他們都很了解，上課時他們問我們一些問題，工友都很坦白回答。 問：你覺得那13個星期的學習都有用，除了你得到一點錢外？ 王：當然，有用，因為一些工友一生人都未唸過書，連ABC也不會，唸了13個星期後，最起碼他會寫自己的名字，識寫地址，識講自己的地址，在那裡住，電話號碼等。 問：你學的是非常基本的英文，對你的事業沒有什麼……? 王：我覺得對我的私人有幫助。 問：對你事業無幫助，對你私人就有幫助。你有沒有考慮過到轉業呢？ 王：我到現在為止，我也沒有考慮過轉業。 問：你認為是因為自己年紀大，沒有這個機會，或是你喜歡你現在的工作？ 王：我仍然喜歡我現在做的車衣行業，這是原因之一；原因之二是因為我的年紀大，已到退休的年齡，你去找工作，別人都會考慮用一個年青人，不會考慮用1一個快退休的人，所以我也沒有考慮想要轉行。 問：所以你的工廠關門四個月是不是？ 王：是。 問：後來是不是返回正常？ 王：工廠後來一直有工開。最近又較為忙碌一些。 問：你是不是一直和同一間公司做工？ 王：不是，我在其中轉了很多間衣廠，這幾十年變化很大，大概做了四﹑五間廠。我和每一個老闆的關係很好，有點友情，有些老闆結束了，從事別的行業，有由子女繼續經營。 問：那你希望你的子女做這一行嗎？ 王：當然不會，但我有兩個兒子都做回餐館那一行，但不在紐約做，兩個在賓州費城做。 問：你覺得唐人街最大的變化是什麼？ 王：最大的變化是人口的變化。當時唐人街的租金很便宜，1974年租金(每月)120元，有兩房一廚一浴室，雖然房間不算大。我當時租金135，住了一年後加租至150元。兩房以上月租180元，現在當然是數倍以上。當時沒有那麼多在街邊賣菜，賣雜貨，那時全部都在店中賣，沒有那麼多茶樓及餐廳，更不要說擴充到這麼大，擴展到Delancey那邊，很少人行，就算Bowery包厘賣珠寶有些工友，入夜都不會經過， 不敢經過，有些工友說：「嘩，不要行呀！那些老番捉人的，有人駕駛汽車來捉你走！」當時女人很無知！聽了好怕！ 問：你來了這麼久，你滿意這裡的生活嗎？ (Side B) 王：哦…….，我想我沒有選擇錯誤。我覺得在美國，特別在紐約的生活，紐約是一個交通很方便的地方，我可以養車，但不養車也很自由，到那裡都有交通工具。家庭生活方面，我自己有房屋，住得很舒服，因為入車衣工會的行業，在工會地方不斷學習，我認識很多朋友，從朋友﹑學校﹑工會組織在暑期學習，我參加很多不同的活動，參加勞工婦聯，亞太勞聯﹑勞工組織，有些政治活動我也參加，我很喜歡聽別人說話的。我覺得年青時想多讀書，但沒有機會，到紐約入車衣行業，由於參加了工會，我有機會參加了更多不同課程，我雖然用了不少金錢及時間，但社會方面的學識增加了不少。所以我也很滿足，我覺得很快樂。 　　以前我未來時，我想我老了要返回香港養老，但現在我的兄弟姐妹說：「現在香港的樓平，你回來吧！美國的樓咁值錢，如果你賣了樓回來住，你可以退休了。」我說不行，我要回來紐約住。當我去旅行時，在飛機聽見，「紐約，紐約，I Love New York(我愛紐約)。」我很喜歡。回到這裡，我覺得這是真正的家，現在已經有很多朋友在這裡。 問：多謝你，將這麼多的故事，和唐人街的經驗，告訴我們。 王：很多謝你，鄭小姐，你太客氣了。 問：多謝你，王太太。 王：Thank you. (完) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Agnes Wong 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Zhong Yue Zhang Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Florence Ng Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-05-26 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation immigration Lawyer Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: This is one of the Museum of Chinese in the Americas’ oral history interviews regarding the 9/11 experience in New York’s Chinatown. Today we have invited Zhong Yue Zhang, Esq. for an interview. The interviewer is I-Ching Ng. Mr. Zhang, could you tell us a bit about when you came from mainland China to the United States? ZHANG: I came to the United States on March 19th, 1989. I came to America because an academic committee let me attend an international conference. The international conference mainly focused on the management of transnational corporations throughout the world. And I had focused on writing about the direct investments of American transnational corporations in China, their behavior patterns, and also researching the investments of Japanese transnational corporations in China and the investments of European transnational corporations in China. That was my own field of research. I had been at Fudan University in China for fourteen years, including both undergraduate studies and teaching there, and finally earning a Masters degree as a graduate student in the field of international economics. During that time, I came in contact with a great amount of Western economic thought. Later, I also went to Beijing University as a visiting scholar for one year. That was from 1980 to 1981. During that time, I attended the Western Economics Research Meeting of China, and I was the youngest committee member there. So, because of my background at Fudan University and Beijing University, I had the opportunity to make contact with the best circles of learning in China at that time. In particular, I was able to be in the forefront of research in studying Western economies and the field of foreign direct investment. As an undergraduate, I had studied British and American Languages and Literatures. In early 1977, when I graduated, there were very few students who had finished four years of college study, and I was in the British and American Languages and Literatures department of Fudan University. Initially, the intention was to train us to work as diplomats, to send us to every foreign embassy and consulate. We’d start as a secretary, since we should have the linguistic basics, and go from level three secretary to level two secretary, and continue developing along that path. But because they made changes to the foreign service in 1977, after graduation, we still remained at our schools. Since I was left in school, I started studying economics. On one hand, I acted as a teacher, on the other hand, I took classes in economics, so I had a chance to interact with the best economics departments in China at that time, and the focus of the economics curriculum. Q: Then would you say that studying literature was your own interest? ZHANG: Studying literature wasn’t a matter of following my interests. When I was studying at school it was in the midst of the Cultural Revolution, that was towards the end of 1972. At that time, the universities in China had all closed and were only recently reopened. We were pretty much the only bunch of junior high school students to go straight into college, and in all of China, we only numbered about 600. Q: At that time, you were in Shanghai? ZHANG: At Shanghai’s Fudan University, yes. Q: So you would be a member of the ‘fifth generation’? ZHANG: ‘Fifth generation’ or whatever generation development – people have different ways of counting that, but I think I was a little earlier than fifth generation. Q: Then, do you feel that the study of literature and the study of economics were two very different fields? ZHANG: Literature and economics are two completely different fields. As far as literature goes, you have a robust creativity, a strong literary background, and you need to think comparatively deeply, so that gives you a sort of creativity that is distinct from reality. But in the case of economics, a lot of aspects of it are connected to science, so you need very good logical thinking skills. Besides needing to have a great understanding of the current state of society, you also need to do a lot of theoretical research, and you need a lot of interaction with the fields of math and science. So, basically, these two are entirely different fields. Q: Which one do you think you like more, or do you feel that they are mutually beneficial? ZHANG: When I first started to study British and American Languages and Literature, I didn’t enter that field because I liked it, it was because they selected me, and so I went. Every junior high school in Shanghai had a quota of a single person [to go to college], and some of them didn’t even have that. My junior high school was a very good one, Ge-zhi Junior High School. Up to the present day, Ge-zhi Junior High School has had 150 years of history, and had already been established back in the Qing Dynasty. At that time, I remember that I had more than 1,000 classmates, and I was the only one selected for college. So I didn’t study according to my interest, it was a matter of them choosing me to go. After I began studying there, very gradually, I began to feel that I had interest in literature. So why could I just switch to studying economics after graduation? Because at that time, I felt that as a male student, becoming a teacher upon graduation and always teaching would be equivalent to making myself into a tool. And what I wanted was to make English into a tool to serve me. I didn’t want it to be my main specialization. This way, I could have a great advantage in other specialties, because I could use English to read lots of books. And as it happens, when I did practical work in economics, I found I had a lot of interest in economics. Anyway, I was fascinated by economics, and I was much more interested in it than in literature. Q: Did you feel very fortunate in that you were able to study after the Cultural Revolution ended? ZHANG: Being able to study in the midst of the Cultural Revolution was a very lucky thing. Because out of all the junior high students in China – and there were maybe several million - each year only six hundred could go study. That was an outcome unique to that period of history. My family was also very happy then, because neither my father nor my mother had gone to college. My mother had been sent out from the age of eight to work as a child laborer, and my father had gone out to work as a child laborer from the age of fourteen. They met because they were both inside the same theater selling candy at the same time. Actually, my parents’ family had been very large, before the Republic of China, they had been a very big family, but because of the changes in Chinese society, the family had declined, so of course they were very happy that I could go to college. Q: Do you have any brothers and sisters? ZHANG: I have a younger brother. Q: What is he doing? ZHANG: He is at the Huangpu district of Shanghai working in the government. Q: So, Mr. Zhang, after you came to America, what was your first impression of the United States? Why did you later decide to stay here? ZHANG: When I first came over, I hadn’t intended to stay, because in my career, in my work, in my opportunities, everything was already excellent. But because of—The reason I came was, at that time, my report, I had just casually sent it out here. I had said that I wanted to attend this conference, because there were so many outstanding professors in this specialty within the country. One of them was the president of Zhong-shan University School of Economics, and he had graduated from Harvard. That was back in the 40s. Three or four times at international conferences I had bumped into him. Now, at that time, I was comparatively young, and my English was relatively good, so I could directly read lots of authors writing on economics. And because I was at Fudan University and Beijing University, at that time I interacted with the most advanced materials. He said to me, you should get out, you should discuss your point of view with other scholars, because by luck, you’re arriving on the scene just as China is starting to open up in a major way, and China is starting to attract foreign investment; and your data and your knowledge might be quite different from that of foreign scholars, so if you went abroad at this time, it would be good for both you and our country. And so for that reason, he gave me some information, saying, that year, in March of 1988, there was an international conference on transnational corporations in New York, and it was reported in an American magazine. So in October of 1987, I sent a letter to them, saying that I was interested in attending their conference. They said, send us a topic, so I sent a topic, I said I was discussing the direct investment of American transnational corporations in China, their behavior and patterns, and comparing them to those of Japanese and European companies. Because my research into this topic was, at that time, in the forefront within China, especially in regard to the direct investment of Japanese transnational companies in China. At that time within China, very few people said that there was a logic behind the direct investments of Japanese transnational companies; I said that there was, but that it was different from that of European and American companies. Because of this paper of mine, lots of people were aware of me. I wrote a letter to that organization’s council and they immediately sent a letter back, saying that this topic would be a great contribution to our conference, we haven’t had anything on this topic come in, and we hope that you quickly write up this report and send it over. So in October, after using English to write out this report, I sent it to the council, and they invited me to attend. But when they invited me, I said that at that time I couldn’t get any financial assistance to attend, because at that time I was already filling a role above lecturer, they were already planning to make me an Assistant Professor. Back then, it was very difficult to create young Assistant Professors, and I had already signed up for it, and I just needed to come back from this trip and they’d give me the post. I had already published many famous works, on the subject of Western economics, so I didn’t prepare much before coming over. If they invited me to go, I would just talk based on the knowledge that I had gained over in China. Q: So why did you stay here? ZHANG: The reason I stayed was because after arriving, I felt like I had come into contact with many scholars, and I felt that if I was only here for a few days, perhaps I wouldn’t gain a great understanding of America. Even though I had spent over a dozen years of effort studying huge amounts of information related to Eastern and Western economics, and I had taught for many years, I felt that I should stay for a while and look around, see what differences might exist between this society and what we studied in books, that great mass of information that I’d dealt with. If I only spent a few days here, then the task would be pretty difficult. The second reason was that I had spent all my own money to come, I had paid for the plane tickets and everything else. The conference gave me a little bit of financial assistance, a stipend to cover the hotel costs, because although they didn’t normally give any financial assistance, they gave me enough to pay for a few days at a hotel. So I got a visa, and soon I had come here, and I thought, at least for now, I want to live here a while longer. After living here a while, there were some other reasons, perhaps I hadn’t been too happy with my original university. So in that way, I ended up living here much longer, and finally ended up living here all the way to today. Q: Which was the organization that set up this conference? ZHANG: The organization setting up the conference was the American Business Administration Association, and the State Department entrusted it to Hofstra University at Long Island. They organized a very high-level conference. Q: After you came, where in New York did you live? ZHANG: After the conference opened, when I arrived, I didn’t understand anything, I had only thought of coming out to see what the world was like. At that time, I didn’t have much money on me, and some overseas students at Hofstra University, one of them was a law—I didn’t actually know them. One was a law student, one was an economics student, one was a math student. They said that Long Island was actually very close to New York, and that New York is a very different place. They said, you just have to take the long distance train, then take the subway, and you can get to New York. Over there are newspapers, you can glance them over, and there’s a huge Chinese community. So in that way, I stored a couple suitcases at the school, and then I took a bus and then the subway to New York. Q: Upon arriving at New York, what was your first impression? ZHANG: When I came to New York, I had many different feelings. First, I didn’t have much financial resources. At that time, I only had 29 dollars on my person. That was because when I came over, I paid for everything myself, and the salary you could make within China was limited. We also couldn’t announce having lots of foreign money, we couldn’t have any foreign money. So when I came over, I borrowed some money from fellow students. They had come to America, and saved up some money there, and they loaned me American money. I bought a plane ticket, and covered my basic living expenses, and then when I reached New York, I only had 29 dollars left. The second reason was, outside of Chinatown, they said that it’d be really difficult to go anywhere else. Even though I had studied literature for a long time, and had taught English, I still didn’t know if I could communicate with Americans using the language I spoke, or if I could get by at all. Therefore, there was a huge gap separating us. After a little bit, I had walked down to Chinatown. The first day there, I didn’t know where to stay, they said, go buy a newspaper, there’s a World Journal (Shi-jie Ri-bao). At that time there were Chinese newspapers and other newspapers. You can go ---, and above that, you can get a job, or rent a room. So I had no friends, no relatives, but still came over. I remember that after arriving, as soon as I came out from the subway, I sat at the intersection of Mott Street and Canal Street. My first thought was, ah, there’s so much Chinese stuff here, the signs, the people walking, they’re all Chinese, and I felt very comfortable. Immediately, I also felt like foreigner, because at that time I could see a lot of Chinese people, but very few spoke my local language, the Shanghai dialect, and very few spoke Mandarin. If they spoke Chinese, it was Cantonese. I didn’t understand a word of Cantonese. So, sitting there, my third reaction was to be a little flustered. I had no money, I had no idea where I would live my first day, and didn’t know where to find work. So, I sat at that intersection for about thirty minutes, and ate a couple eggs. These eggs were ones that a private group of overseas students at Hofstra University gave me, saying, why don’t you go out and see what it’s like? So, my first day, that’s the way I went to New York. After arriving, I started searching for work starting in Chinatown, asking at every restaurant if they had work for me. If I could find work, then I could rely on my own abilities, or I could study at school or settle down. So I started searching all the restaurants in Chinatown, and they asked: Can you speak Cantonese? I said, No, I can’t. And then they said, then you can’t work here, because if you can’t speak Cantonese, you can’t communicate, so there was no chance to work. I just followed the road from Chinatown all the way to the Upper West Side, heading west, and when I reached about the eighth big street, 57th Street, I went into a Chinese restaurant. Every time I had seen a Chinese restaurant, I went inside and asked them for work, and this time, I saw a man, a pretty good man, he was from Shandong in China. He was in that restaurant, I remember it was called “Hunan Garden” and he did a delivery business. He said, you look like you’ve just arrived in this place, where are you from? And I said, “I’m from Shanghai.” He said, “Inside, we have a guy who does delivery, he’s from Shanghai, I’ll help introduce you to him, and since it looks like you don’t have any place to put your feet, come inside and have some food!” I ate at their restaurant, and I remember that at that time, he gave me Jielan Beef and soup to eat, and then he gave me five dollars in quarters. He said, go use this money to call people, you can call all your friends. I said, I don’t have any friends here, and I don’t have any relatives here. He said, all you need to do is find work and then you can do anything. I said, how do I thank you, I don’t even know you, and you’ve been so good to me, especially on my first day when I still don’t know where I’m going to live. He said, no need to get excited, if you are able to succeed later on, just invite me to eat a meal with you and that’s enough. But up to this day, I still don’t know where that man is. From inside that store, a man from Shanghai came out, and he was younger than me. After looking at me for a moment, he said, “Well, it’s like this, I see that you’re a pretty good guy, and I live in Queens, and in a place called Rego Park.” He lived in a tiny basement, and his rent was very cheap. He said, “I can guess that you don’t have any money, so just live with me for a while, and later on when you find your own place, you can move out.” So that day I went with him back to Rego Park in Queens. The place we lived was very small. That room had little besides a bed, and the space next to the bed was just slightly bigger than the bed itself. He said, we’ll do it like this, and he took off the mattress and slept on that, and I slept on top of the spring box. I slept on top of it for three months, and at that time, I didn’t know, since I was very poor, and I was very nervous, because even going out to buy a bed was very expensive. At first when I went out I was very nervous, so I slept on top of there for three full months. Later I started looking for work, and I found work due to that man from Shanghai, he was called Chen Jian-xin, Jason, a really great young man. He said, “It’s like this, I’ll help introduce you.” And so, very slowly, I began delivering take-out from that restaurant. At the same time, there was one thing I hadn’t thought about, and he said, “You’ll have no trouble at all – because you came in on a B-1 Visa, so you can apply to have it changed to student status.” I said, “I can do that, but I don’t have anyone to act as my sponsor.” He said, “I’ll go and be your sponsor.” He had lots of family members immigrate to the U.S. or Canada, and so he transferred a bunch of money in my bank account. I had only known him for about one or two weeks, and he transferred about eight thousand dollars into my bank account, and then I began studying language there. It was because of these things that I could succeed, so I want to thank those two men, especially the second one who was truly exceptional. Q: So, Mr. Zhang, it sounds like you used to teach in mainland China. Considering that you were doing a higher level of work over there, wasn’t this whole process extremely frustrating? After you came here, you had to work your way up from the very bottom, and you had to work in restaurants. This must have been a huge fall in status. How did you adjust to it? ZHANG: This was a huge fall in status, so much so that even if you took all the words available to write it out, no matter how you tried to describe it, you still couldn’t accurately describe the degree to which I had fallen in the world. My circumstances in China were extremely good, my opportunities were great, and the work I was doing had already reached a high level. I had come to America not because my circumstances were bad, rather I had come over to change my surroundings, and the main reasons were the two that I just mentioned. One thing, from my childhood until adulthood, I had been living through a period of rapid change within China, going from a very closed society, from a society in which the Communist Party controlled everything very closely, all the way to a time when very, very slowly the government had started loosening the economy, and had started opening up to the outside. It was a time of huge changes, so I had a kind of urge, especially because I had studied British and American Languages and Literatures and also Western Economics. I had this urge, I always had wanted to come out and see the stuff I had studied and the stuff I had taught, and see what it was like. This was a really powerful desire. Actually, in the ten years previous to 1988, there were opportunities every year for me to come over, to go to America or to Europe. When I had graduated, I was a student not quite 21 years of age, and my English was such that, compared to others in China, I could be considered a specialist, and also I was from Fudan University, and there were only 600 in the entire nation. So, if I applied to study abroad, I could have gone at any time. The reason I hadn’t applied to study abroad then was because I had felt that China was changing. Supposing that I had gone abroad to study British and American Languages and Literature, then I wouldn’t have understood anything other than those languages, because I would have missed out on that entire period of change within my country. Later, when I returned to China to work, I wouldn’t understand Chinese people at all. So I switched to studying economics, and understood the society, and greatly delved into my studies. During those ten years, I didn’t come. So, when I came, it wasn’t because my circumstances had been bad, but maybe my urge meant more to me than those good circumstances, the desire to go change my environment meant more, and the reason for that was because I had already been an intellectual. Maybe intellectuals have a sort of imagination and passion that is more naïve than people of other social classes, so this naïve imagination acted as a powerful impetus for me. Of course, there were some other reasons, but none of them were very important. Q: So after you came to America, what differences did you feel existed between the America that you saw and the America that you studied in a textbook or that you had imagined? <a name="here"></a> ZHANG: The America that I saw, let’s put it this way, I saw New York, and I think that it is different from other places in America. Because the first place I had stopped at was—when I came into America, the first place I stopped at was San Francisco. I waited in the airport for four hours, then changed planes and went to Washington DC. When I was in San Francisco, the customs officers and the immigration officers were all very polite, all very friendly. And I saw Asian faces, and maybe that made me feel a kind of closeness, and didn’t feel like such a stranger. When I reached Washington DC, I thought that the American Management Council’s committee head would send someone to meet me, because I had brought with me a letter for Shanghai’s Wang Dao-han, to discuss holding an international conference in China. I brought his letter with me, and I hadn’t expected that he had gone away to Italy on official business, and that he didn’t receive my fax. So I was very nervous on the plane, because nobody was coming to meet me, and I didn’t know where to go after I left, so I just slept in the airport for a night. At that time, how terrified was I? Because this was a completely new country, and there weren’t Asian faces, there were a few different races, there were a few minorities, such as Blacks and Hispanics, there were about four or five of them waiting in the rear room of the airport. I was the only Asian person, and I was a little scared then, a bit scared. So I spent a night sleeping there, and for one night I didn’t go out, and anyway it was a matter of waking up after twenty minutes, or after fifteen minutes, not wanting to let anyone take my luggage, and not sure what might happen. Early the second day, I came across a cleaning person, an airport cleaning person, and he looked like he was a mixed-race person, part White and part Black. He said, considering the situation you’re in, I’ll give you a couple quarters, and you call your friend. At that time, I had the phone number of a Chinese professor at George Washington University, and so I just called him. He said, Oh, you’re already here! And then he came to meet me. So I also want to thank that person, because even though he just gave me a couple quarters, he allowed me to contact my friends outside, so I soon had someone coming to meet me. Q: Mr. Zhang, could you tell us, since you started as a worker in a restaurant, how did you end up becoming a lawyer? Can you tell us what kind of story occurred in the middle? ZHANG: Working at a restaurant in New York, it was like this, in the beginning, I studied language – I studied language at Kaplan. I wanted to raise my English level. Even though we studied a lot of English, it had been somewhat different from the English that Americans spoke. I could communicate with people, that wasn’t a problem, and I could make a speech. But when I look back at it now, my English then had been based on Chinese school lessons, and it must have been quite different than English I spoke after living here for a while. And even though I feel that my English is quite different than it used to be, even now I feel that there’s a difference between me and Americans who were born and raised here. At that time, after studying it, I came here and had a look at this society, and I felt that Chinatown didn’t necessarily fit me. The reason it didn’t fit me was because I couldn’t speak Cantonese, and I didn’t know how to take part. So I studied language at 57th Street on the West Side, and worked a little as a deliveryman, and after studying a while, I felt that if I only studied the language, it wasn’t quite equal to the kinds of books I had been studying before, and I ought to return to my specialization. So I applied to enter the City University of New York, Graduate Center, and applied to join their PhD program in economics. The director was a really good guy. He said, you graduated from Fudan University, and you have a Masters degree, so I will completely accept your academic background. He recognized all 36 credits, and enrolled me. After being enrolled, I studied one semester towards a PhD in economics. But suddenly I had used up all my money, and I had to spend all the money I had made from working on my tuition, and I couldn’t work while I was studying, so soon I had no money for tuition. I was really nervous, so once again I came out to work. At Second Avenue and 82nd Street, I was a manager for a delivery service. After doing that, there was a time when I was with several professors from China, all of them very young, and I heard them saying, about five blocks away, there was a restaurant that was going to be sold, and they said to go take a look at it. Just like that, I went and had a look and a week later I had partnered with others and bought the restaurant, at 85th Street and Third Avenue, just like that, in a moment I was involved in that restaurant. Working at the restaurant was really exhausting, because it was a huge responsibility. One important consideration was that in China, we didn’t have this kind of entrepreneurial environment, so if I could be clever enough to handle a bit of American business, then I would become accustomed to American society. When I bought the restaurant, other than getting a lawyer, I handled everything myself. I did everything, including applying for a health code sign, and for every kind of license. So at the time, when I did it, I said, regardless of whether I do this for ten years or five years, I definitely have to go back to school again. I kept that in mind while I was running it. I worked very hard, and during the first year I worked seven days without rest. At the time, my body was strong, because I had just entered my thirties, and I had exercised a lot during the time of my studies, so my body was in good shape, and I had no lack of energy, and it didn’t matter if I didn’t get a lot of sleep. But during that time I had one urge, that was to do some sort of business to understand this society, and so in this way I got involved. If you asked me now to go through it all again, and work the same way as I did then, there’s a good chance I couldn’t pull it off. Q: So how long were you working at that restaurant? ZHANG: I started at the restaurant near the end of 1989 and continued until 1993 or 1994, when I sold it. At that time, I decided I would study at a law school, and the restaurant was still there, so after studying for a semester I came back, sold the restaurant, and returned to study at the law school. So I did it for about four years or so. Q: So how did you become interested in becoming a lawyer here? ZHANG: Becoming a lawyer, the story of how I came to study at law school is really interesting. How is it interesting? At that time, I was talking with my wife, saying, if I went back to study, what should I study? Because even though I was very lucky in that I had been able to go to college in the midst of the Cultural Revolution, at the same time, I suffered a sort of side effect of the Cultural Revolution’s attitude towards learning. Maybe it was a kind of influence. What kind of influence? At that time, a lot of junior high schools didn’t have any rules, and the school curriculums were a mess, the rules that had been in place before the Cultural Revolution were all gone. So our math and science education was extremely limited, so even though when I went back to school and studied economics, when I thought about studying economics again, a lot of American schools had tons of math and science in their economics programs, especially mathematical patterns. In this way, I said, this isn’t my strong suit, and whatever I go back and study, I wanted to avoid mathematics, because I had never formally studied math. In that way, I didn’t have many choices. Besides studying economics, I could study history, administration, or I could choose to study politics, or I could study law. That night, I remember very clearly, I asked, what would be best for me to study? And we just flipped a coin. Just flipped a quarter, heads or tails. If it was heads, then I would go study law. In the end, it was heads, and I decided to study law, and that’s how I went there. Q: Did you study there with your wife? ZHANG: I studied there by myself. Q: Did you wife come here later from mainland China? Or was she here--- ZHANG: She came here before me, and was working in a different field. Q: How did you two meet? ZHANG: We met in New York. Q: After studying at law school, when did you open your own practice? ZHANG: Before graduating from the law school in 1996, I studied for three years – I studied law at the University of Maine, School of Law. My final year I studied as a visiting student at Brooklyn Law School, because my home was in New York, and I wanted to return to New York, and my wife was also in New York. So at that time I applied to be a visiting student at Brooklyn Law School. It’s a private law school. So after graduating in 1996, I stayed in New York. When I was in New York, I didn’t think about coming and starting my own firm, because all my experience was with big companies, big universities, and big organizations. Especially when I was studying in the law school, every year, I went to Hong Kong, either for training or as an intern, and I helped a couple excellent law firms with some legal work. The reason they had invited me was because I was very familiar with the Chinese system and Chinese law, and I had also studied at an American law school, and also I was comparatively familiar with Hong Kong’s situation, because I had written a few essays on it before coming to the U.S. At that time, I discussed what changes would take place immediately and in the future in Hong Kong and China, and I deeply researched the issue of whether China would have a greater influence on Hong Kong or whether Hong Kong would have a greater influence on China. So they invited me to do work related to stock market IPOs. They were doing work helping Chinese companies put H-shares upon the Hong Kong stock market, and they did appraisals and lots of underwriting. So I helped them with this within reorganizations, and they wanted to use my expertise in this area to see if certain deals could go through, and if there was a reorganization, how it would be done. So I helped them—I was directly responsible to their management, even though at that time I still hadn’t graduated. So each summer, starting in 1994, I went there, in ’94, ’95, and ’96, and even went during one winter. One of the two law firms was Deacons Graham and James. It’s the biggest in Hong Kong, the number one firm. The other one was a Top 5 City of London firm, called Simmons & Simons. During that time I began to be very familiar with a lot of Hong Kong’s special circumstances. Q: So did you do immigration cases at that time? Or did you do something different? ZHANG: At that time, I did nothing but corporate law, I hadn’t thought about doing immigration law or anything else. But in 1997, this situation changed, because after I had graduated for a little while, my daughter immigrated from Shanghai, in China. I had applied in ’95 to become an American citizen, and so I also applied for her to come to America. I thought that if I worked in a major law firm, I would have to spend lots of time there, and I wouldn’t have time to take care of her. When she came, she was 13 years old, and that’s a very important age. So I wanted to spend a lot more time with her. That was the first time that I thought, well, then I will just come out and do it myself. Before I had never wanted to come out and do things myself, and if I came out and worked on my own, I’d be doing something completely different from the law I had been doing. So at that time, I gave up my opportunity to work in a major American law firm, and instead went to work for a firm focusing on accidental injury. It’s a very good New York City firm, located on Vesey Street, and it’s very famous within the Chinese community. I acted as their Chinese lawyer, focusing on accidental injury cases. My income went down very, very much, but I thought I could gain a lot of experience, lots of experience in court. So I worked there for ten months, going to court every day, met lots of Chinese clients, represented the firm in accidental injury and workplace injury cases. After ten months, I – in October of 1998, I started my own law practice, in the beginning of 1999, I officially opened it. I started by running my firm as a general practice, because when you come out to work by yourself in a law firm, you are a solo practitioner. When I began, it was just me, I did immigration work, I did corporate law, I did divorce, I did criminal disputes, anyway, you can say it was a general practice. In the Chinese community, immigration was the biggest issue, it represented over 50% of cases. Q: What challenges do you have doing immigration applications? And I think that America’s immigration laws are constantly changing, so what sort of impact does that have upon your business? ZHANG: At the time when I first came out, the few friends I had who were already working as lawyers outside said it was more difficult, the market is very unstable. And that was because I started up in ’99, and before ’99, at the end of ’98, I left my employer, and as it happened, there were several new immigration laws which had started being revised in ’96. Before 1996, it was very easy to do, and there weren’t many lawyers, the immigration law being very easy. After 1996, there was a huge change – in 1997 and 1998. The changes made in 1997 caused the lawyers at that time to have a lot of opportunities. At the time that I came out, there weren’t any new immigration laws and there were a lot of lawyers, so it was a great challenge. To give one example, in 1996 and 1997, after the new immigration reforms, there was a new immigration rule saying that if you wished to apply for political asylum, you had to do it within a year of entering America, and if you didn’t do that, then you lost your chance, unless you had some powerful reason why the one year limit should not be applied to your case. This one-year limit was very strict. If your country changed greatly, or American law changed greatly, and there’s lots of other examples of situations which could occur, but only in these situations could you apply for political asylum after the limit. Before ’96 and ’97, you could apply at any time, you could be in the country for five or ten years and still do it. Anyway, the immigration law was becoming more and more strict. When I appeared, it was during the time that the immigration laws were becoming ever more strict. At that time, many Chinese clients, especially from Fujian, had lots of immigration questions to ask; but, at the time circumstances were not good, and the competition was fierce. Q: Can you talk to us a little about this profession? Being a Chinese lawyer in New York? What changes have there been during all these years? ZHANG: The changes in the profession of law have been huge. From the time I opened my business, after 1998 ended, one of the biggest changes occurred between the end of the year 2000 and the end of April 2001. The president at that time, President Clinton, signed an executive order which caused a lot of people who had originally been illegal immigrants to have a chance to gain the benefits of immigration. We normally refer to this as 245(i). 245(i) is a kind of special amnesty, not a complete amnesty. It gave people who had come to America prior to December of 2000, and who hadn’t been deported or processed in court a chance to apply for immigration; but you need to prove that you were already in America by December of 2000. And this application needed to be delivered before April 30th of 2001. You could apply as a worker, or family immigration, any kind of immigration, as long as it was legal, you could apply based on anything. And after you applied, so long as it was by April 30, 2001, as long as you applied before then, you could get the benefits. The benefits were that if you were rejected for immigration prior to April 30, 2001, and supposing that later on your application was ratified, then at that future time you wouldn’t need to go abroad to adjust your status. That was a time when the profession was extremely busy, and besides this, all the immigration adjustments were expanded. After the enactment of 245(i) on April 30, 2001, all of the immigration lawyers were very happy. That was because they thought that America’s regulations had been loosened, and had given a lot of people who had entered the country illegally a chance to adjust their status in this country. Perhaps several million people benefited, and we understood the new immigration laws quicker. A lot of law firms lost out on this opportunity; they decided they didn’t want to mess with this thing, and they didn’t do it, and so they lost their chance. So there were a bunch of law firms that expanded quickly, and we were one of those. In a flash, our law firm expanded, and our clients grew in number. Of course, I learned a lot of new things in the midst of this, and there were a lot of new challenges, because previous to 1998, my law firm hadn’t existed. After that immigration law, we kept thinking that another bunch of 245(i) laws would come out, and President Clinton would sign them, extending this kind of law. This would be a great thing to new immigrants, especially us Chinese immigrants, new immigrants without status, we could gain a lot of benefits. But he didn’t sign the new executive order prior to the election. He had already sent the bill to Congress, and the Senate and the House had already discussed it, there were no problems, he could sign it, and he could extend the time period and allow people who arrived later or who didn’t have a chance to apply originally to apply now. But after the explosive events of 9/11, immigration law completely changed. And they changed in an extremely conservative direction. So after those events, all the immigration laws created new obstacles for immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, ones who snuck over. Because of the changes due to 9/11, immigration law became stricter, and every sort of background was checked, and they issued all kinds of new immigration laws, and it created lots of difficulties, particularly for those that illegally snuck into the country. I believe that from the standpoint of my profession, the number of illegal immigrants decreased. In the past, a great number of people had been illegal immigrants, because after American immigration law was revised, it didn’t let you apply so easily for political asylum, and it didn’t let you get through extremely complicated court procedures very easily, so there were a lot fewer clients coming. To give an example, it used to be that an appeal would not get a result until many years later. All appeals required three immigration judges to make a decision, two could be in favor and one opposed, with the opinion of the two being sufficient. Things would take five or six years, or four or five years, and that was quite typical. But one advantage was that until the appeal was decided, during those years, you could remain in the country. You could work, and nobody would catch you and do anything. Now, in the time around 9/11, even before 9/11, they were thinking about changing this, and after 9/11 they did change it. A lot of the judges in the immigration courts were relieved of their roles, and were sent to different places. Now, there is just one judge who can decide if you win or lose. They have speeded up this kind of process, and they don’t discuss matters so carefully. So, when it comes to rejecting immigration cases, first of all, that happens a lot now, a lot more than in the past. Secondly, it happens really quickly. So everything about the new immigration procedures is very difficult. Q: Can you speak a little of your peak period, that would be during the Clinton years, how many clients did you have? Comparing now and then, how much has your business decreased? ZHANG: I’ll put it like this, I don’t have a total number so that I can say there were this many clients during my peak times. During the peak time period, I had to go to court every day. I went to court for political asylum applications at least once every day. The most I can recall is going to court seven times in one day, with four different judges. I ran all around, going here and there. If there was a day that I didn’t go to immigration court, then I would feel that the day was empty. Nowadays, if I go to court two or three times in a week, I think it’s very busy. During a week, I might go to court once, twice, or three times, and even if two of them were on the same day, and I went to the two cases in a row, that week would feel very busy. It’s a very clear-cut change, I can tell you that for sure, the change is very obvious. The applications for political asylum have decreased dramatically. The decrease within our profession has been about 95%. What sort of reason caused the political asylum applications to decrease? Because the number of cases of people sneaking into the country has decreased. Usually when we have a political asylum case, if someone comes in and asks us for help with a sponsor, their relatives will be here, and if they can be a sponsor, then they won’t be locked up, and after the person comes out they can apply for political asylum. Now, let’s say that you snuck into the country, and you’re incarcerated by the government, there’s a lot fewer people locked up, so naturally there’s a lot less people doing political asylum cases. So about fifty percent of our work had been helping people legally get their relatives released from prison, and that fifty percent is gone. Compared to the time before 9/11, this is a huge change. Q: So how did you adjust your profession? ZHANG: First of all, even though my work decreased, we haven’t been impacted so much yet. That’s because the court procedures for those who illegally entered the country take at least one or two years to resolve, and at most they take three or four years. The whole procedure, going from the Immigration Bureau to the courts, from one court to another, appealing the results, it’s always like that. So the impact of the changes in policy will only start to become obvious in the coming days. That is to say, we still have some former cases that haven’t been resolved yet. But if we don’t get new cases now, I can predict that within two years, these cases will become extremely rare. The adjustments are like that, and even though we have helped—Even though the law has become stricter, there are still a lot of other immigration cases, and we still do those. For example, if there is a legal sponsor, we will do that. If there is a case of political asylum that follows the law, we will do that. A lot of the cases we had done before, a lot of the political asylum cases succeeded, and we won a lot of green card cases, and so a lot of new cases came forward. The relatives and friends of these people wanted to immigrate, their parents and sisters wanted to immigrate; and then after their lives become stable, they wanted to buy a house, or they wanted to run a business, and these people will always come back and look for us. The sort of filings we did prior to 9/11 weren’t that many, they were just family immigration or spousal immigration. Starting in 2003, we paid a lot of attention to these cases, because we were already extremely successful in this area. We helped a lot of relatives immigrate, and our casework unrelated to political asylum developed very rapidly. I’ll put it like this, this kind of work used to be, before 9/11 that is, or back when we first started, they used to be only 10% or 15% of cases. On the other hand, this kind of immigration filing work has become 80% of cases now. In this way, to a great extent, these can make up for the political asylum cases that have disappeared. The second reason is that, we think a new immigration law will come out, and maybe the standards will be different or its range will be different. For example, President Bush has said that they are currently making some plans, and the two houses of Congress will put forth all sorts of bills, both the Democrats and Republicans. It’s all due to current politics that there’s nothing right now -- Last year they started discussing it, because of the election, maybe around the time of the election, we’ll see what time they put it forward, and that [new immigration] plan is one of them. Another one is the Dream Act, and that one says, if your child goes to high school and studies for five years, and always studies at school; if you can prove that, then they will give you a green card, these ones still haven’t passed. But, I guess that either this year or next year, they will come out. As soon as these laws come out, our law firm will be in the forefront, because we had thrown ourselves into the 245(i), and later we resolved things very well. We especially did well with the immigration filing later on. In this way, we took two areas of immigration service and we entered right into those two areas. If a new law comes out, we’ll be in a better position to expand than before, because we’re already prepared. Our law firm is… Well, since I have a scholar’s background, I don’t know how other law firms do it, but we have an internal training structure. On a weekly basis, we have a meeting to discuss new cases, the more difficult cases that we’ve come across, or new immigration laws. Last year in June, we opened our second law office, in Flushing, and besides this one, in Flushing we’ve created an entirely new internal system and gotten unique results. So, we have provided services with these two offices in the largest two Chinese communities. Over there, we’ve developed very well according to our accumulated experience. So we have an internal structure, and we’re always discussing things, always learning, and we’ve frequently published essays in the newspaper. So we’ve got a strong foundation regarding understanding new immigration law and preparing for our clients. Q: Can you talk about after 9/11, that is, the stricter immigration laws, about how much longer does it take now when you apply for a green card or to immigrate? ZHANG: There’s all kinds of reasons why somebody might apply for a green card. If you applied for a green card based on political asylum, it would be a different set of laws. To make an example, if you suffered from the one-child policy in China and wanted to get a green card based on that, this would take a long time. Every year they can handle one thousand cases, every year they take one thousand, because that’s the allotment for political asylum based on the one-child policy. So already there are ten or twenty thousand people in line, and it will be many years before you can reach the front. Even after it reaches your turn, and you apply for a green card, there is another waiting period, and there is once again a limit on the number of applicants. In this way, applicants for green card based on political asylum, before – in the beginning, five, six, seven eight years ago, perhaps you could get one in three or four years, while now it might be nine or ten years. Just a typical green card application also takes longer. Why does it take longer? Because now there’s the additional background investigation instituted after 9/11. To give an example of the difference between how it was originally and now, consider the case of spouses, if the wife or husband is an American citizen and applies for the spouse. Previously in New York, it would take about one year to finish the process, but now there is the additional background check, so it will take at least two years or more, and sometimes it will take as long as three, four years because there is no fixed time limit for doing the background investigation. All of the other green card immigration procedures have lengthened by at least one or two years. Q: Then does this influence your work or your business? ZHANG: This has both good and bad influences on our cases. The positive influence is that you can help clients with a lot more issues. One service is going to the Immigration Bureau to hasten things. In the case of lots of applications, there’s no particular reason why they’re being delayed. So one of the reasons why we often have successes is because we’re always pressuring them to hasten matters, always reminding the Immigration Bureau, asking them how the case is coming along. They won’t respond immediately, but after you push them a few times, they’ll give an answer. The bad aspect is that it’s bad for the clients, because the clients applying are usually in a great hurry, because getting an immigration green card is an overwhelming issue. The acceptance or rejection of the green card application greatly impacts the applicant’s life. It’s like the acceptance or rejection is a weight on their shoulders, and it brings lots of difficulties. I know, because I am somebody who immigrated too, and the acceptance or rejection of your application creates a lot of pressure, and it mixes up your future plans. Long-term planning is impossible, so this is really bad for them. The government today is constantly saying that they will increase the funding to the Immigration Bureau, and allow them to speed up the process. I’ve heard that current applications are actually faster than one or two years ago. The reason is because a greater budget was given to the Immigration Bureau, allowing them to move swifter. I don’t have any confirmation of that, though. However, I’ve heard that new applications today are handled faster than the old ones. Q: Can you tell us, since you’ve dealt with so many cases, have there been any especially unforgettable experiences? ZHANG: Because of my personality, I have had lots of unforgettable experiences. One thing you provide in political asylum is the specialized legal services. But the lawyer is also the only person, outside of the judge, the investigator, the translator and the family members to see this person’s inner feelings and every reaction throughout the entire process. You can see the changes in the person’s emotions, you can see what annoys the person, you can see what makes the person get nervous, you can see the points at which all the emotions come out. So there have been some political asylum cases – every case has had a big impact on me. Usually the clients hope to go through the political asylum process and gain status here, and I feel the same way. Putting aside the fact that I’m their lawyer, my background as a Chinese person who immigrated from China, it makes me care about them and their status under American law from the bottom of my heart. The first thing is that you have to do everything according to American law. I am a lawyer, I have an ethical profession, there’s definitely no problem, that’s the first thing, the highest principle. The second thing is that my personality, added on to my background, makes me feel that I have a responsibility to help Chinese clients. That’s because I understand their culture, and because I am a part of that culture. The second thing is, I understand all the different ways that they feel confused, and their difficulties, their every emotion, I understand those. Their relatives can’t understand. Because when they go to court, I’m next to them, I’m with them helping them to prepare, and they’ll tell you everything. A lot of people don’t realize how powerful their emotions are, and I stay with them every step of the way. So every case that I handle, I feel truly happy from the bottom of my heart. Lawyers have to accept fees for their services, but the fees are not so important to me, and I’ll be with them every step of the way. For example, if we are defeated, I’ll be right there worrying with them, and the reason is that I know exactly how huge a win or a loss is towards the client, how big it is to the family. For example, there’s a case, I helped a Chinese woman from Shantou in Guangdong Province, at that time she was about 50 years old, and she had snuck into the United States. After she was caught at Newark Airport, she was locked up in the new Elizabeth Detention Center. First I acted as her sponsor, and usually the detention center doesn’t release people. This woman had experienced great suffering. She had suffered harassment due to the one-child policy, the reason being that she had a boyfriend whose wife was the Village Child Planning Commission’s Chairperson. The woman and this other woman’s husband had relations and then she became pregnant. So then she was put through lots of pressure to get an abortion, and that very serious things would happen to her if she didn’t get an abortion, because she was not married. Under these circumstances, she ran away. And once she started fled, she kept going for eight or nine years, until she reached a whole different location in Guangdong Province, and after she bore her child, she raised him alone, going through lots of painful experiences. But she didn’t have any documents to prove it. When you don’t have documents to prove things, then in theory, as long as everything you say in your testimony is consistent, then you can go ahead; the judge can accept you, and you can have a chance. But usually this is pretty difficult. That case took ten months of work before I succeeded. Afterwards, I was really touched, because initially the judge hadn’t really believed the case, and didn’t seem willing to accept her. In the end, he did and he said it was like this, if you appeal the decision to the Immigration Bureau, and I let you appeal to them, you won’t succeed, because this would end up becoming a new precedent. In the past, with this kind of case, where there are no documents, this situation of a girlfriend who became pregnant, there wasn’t any kind of legal precedent, and I wanted them to create a new precedent. Finally, he agreed, and I was very touched. I said to her, I never thought it would reach this point. Even if I worked really hard on the case, I wasn’t sure we would make it. The government finally appealed the case, and on appeal they still lost. So, this precedent was created right there, and that was a new precedent. The judge said it was a new precedent. So this woman is in America now. This kind of case required that I throw all my energy and all my emotions and everything I had into it. I was extremely anxious as well, and speaking from this point of view, I have seen the true feelings of a lot of legal and illegal immigrants, and have seen many things in this world. This is an extremely – speaking as a lawyer, doing this field of work has let me experience things that lawyers not in this field can never experience. Q: What do you think of illegal immigrants? It seems that many Americans see this as a problem, a bad thing. Now, speaking as a Chinese person, and someone who has handled so many of these cases, what do you think of this issue? ZHANG: I think, speaking as a lawyer, and speaking as an American citizen, I am very respectful towards American law, I want to respect it and the people who come here should respect it, they shouldn’t sneak into the country, and they should use legal paths to enter the country. But on the other hand, because I am a lawyer, I also must focus particularly on helping my clients fight for their rights and benefits. Even though you might have come here illegally, and you might have broken laws to come here, you still have lots of rights and benefits, and that’s the great thing about America. So, I just go along with this, and I try to give the most help that I can. Now, speaking from this position, speaking from those two basic points, I don’t really understand the people who immigrate here from other countries [besides China], because my clients are generally Chinese. I think, first of all, America is a nation of immigrants. I think that new immigrants have been good for America, I think they have advanced the nation. If there hadn’t been immigrants, America, this nation, wouldn’t have the history it does. The reason that America has been able to develop to this point is because there have been immigrants from every kind of country. Regardless of whether you illegally immigrated or snuck into the country, having arrived, these people have a great risk [of being arrested and deported]. Now, speaking of Chinese illegal immigrants, my opinion is that they have helped this country advance. I’m not supporting their illegal entry into this country, and I don’t like them sneaking into the country, avoiding a lot of—that is, disturbing America with their illegal actions. But I’m speaking of after they have come here. Before they come here, that isn’t an area on which we can comment. We should follow the letter of the law. But having come here, I think, after they have already come here, as Chinese people, whether they are from Taiwan, mainland China, Hong Kong, or even Chinese people from other locations, they are all hard-working. Secondly, they bring comparatively few problems to this country. Whether you look at it from the perspective of how they educate their children, or just look at how we all work, you can see that they place great value on their children’s education, and they work really hard. Of course, there are a lot of people who do more than a few bad things, but even so, it’s a comparatively small percentage. To give an example, Fuzhou people have more than a decade of history here, and you can see how many people from Fuzhou have started take-out restaurants and buffet restaurants, not just in New York, but all over America. It’s hard to find a place without a Chinese take-out restaurant or a buffet restaurant. It’s been a great benefit to the country. Not only have they brought their culture here, but they also bring a convenience, a service. That service isn’t something that everybody can do. And I’m just giving one example. They’ve brought a lot of economic benefit to the country, and they make their children study hard, and their people get good jobs. And the people working can help their own families, and then they can help the government generate tax revenue. This is a really great thing. So I think illegal immigration, especially illegal immigration from China, has caused this country, America, to advance greatly, and that it hasn’t had any bad influence whatsoever. Q: Can you recall what you were doing when 9/11 occurred? ZHANG: 9/11 was a special moment to every single person. At that time, I wasn’t in America, I was in China, I was in Shanghai, in my mother’s home. I had booked an airplane ticket to return to America on September 12th. At that time, I was at my mother’s home, eating with my former classmates, and watching television as we ate. Suddenly on the television – my brother and others said, how could two airplanes seem to be hitting the World Trade Center towers, the twin towers? We weren’t paying attention, and neither was I, and so I thought that the television station must be playing some kind of movie. Suddenly I looked over, and realized -- what a second, how could [we be watching a movie on] Phoenix [Feng-huang] Channel? Phoenix Channel came from Hong Kong, and it was distinct from mainland China’s Zhong-yang Channel and Shanghai Channel. I thought, the news station on Phoenix Channel wouldn’t play a movie. So I looked over there, and as soon as I did, I got nervous. I saw a second plane hitting the tower. The first thing I did then was snatch up the phone, and make a phone call to my wife. Because the place she worked was at Broadway and Vesey Street, a block from the twin towers. Because the twin towers were on Church Street, and right beyond that was Broadway. Vesey is the place where the twin towers start. My wife was in that skyscraper, at the time she was doing some work at a bank. I called, trying to reach her, I said, what has happened? She said, it’s a mess. I could hear shouting in the background behind her. I said I would call my office, but I couldn’t reach them, and I left a message for them to call back, to call me in a hurry. If there was anybody in the office, they should call me immediately. First of all, get out of there. Secondly, I called again to make sure. I asked her, have you reached them? She said, I did, they’re already hurrying back. After people had left, I felt better, because I didn’t want anybody in that place, because it was very close to the site [of the twin towers]. Secondly, I said, hurry up and go. She said, I can’t go right now, it’s chaos. I waited on hold on the phone for forty minutes. My feelings at that time, maybe I told them after they came back, I was even more nervous than if I had been at my New York office, or had been at that place, because the people who weren’t in America at that moment were very panicked. The feeling was one of overwhelming panic. And I called again for my daughter, but I couldn’t reach her, because she was studying at the Bronx Science High School. Then, later, I couldn’t find her for a full day. My wife finally told me that she had found her, and that my daughter had gone to her classmate’s home to stay. All the people in the office had left, so I finally relaxed. And then my wife was inside, and she shouted one thing to me, she said, “Oh my God! It’s gone. It’s gone.” I said, what is gone? She said, the two towers are gone. I said, I can see them on the TV, they’re smoking. She said, it’s gone. It’s collapsed. So, I was extremely worried then. From that point on, I was constantly making phone calls. I think that my feelings at that time -- because I had personally spent lots of time in the area around the 9/11 towers, and my office was also in that area. But I was also extremely worried, because I was in Shanghai, and yet my heart was completely, more than 100% in this place, I was worried about the safety of the employees at my office, worried about my wife, worried about the condition of my daughter. So I was always trying to reach them, and I was speaking to the airline asking when I could go back. And I was constantly unable to go back, all the way until the 17th. That was the first airplane allowed to fly in from China, and it flew into San Francisco. When I came out of San Francisco, I saw the National Guard in full military dress, and there were more of them than passengers. And in a flash, I was back at my office, but when I returned to my office, the whole neighborhood had changed. Starting from Broadway and Canal Street, it was all National Guard. Everything was closed off, you couldn’t get in. Other than workers, nobody could get in. It was like a militarized zone. It was like watching a movie. The whole environment had changed, a complete – it was like the kind of scene you saw in movies about the Second World War. If I went back to the office, it was filled with a weird smell, like smoke from a gun. There was nobody on the streets, in all of Broadway, I’d never seen anything like this, what seemed like an empty lot, no cars could come in, all of it was National Guard stationed there. If you went in, they wanted to see your ID. Otherwise, I couldn’t go back to my office. So after I returned, there was about one or two weeks during which I couldn’t work. The doors weren’t open, all the information and cases were broken off. For half a year after I came back, I was constantly experiencing great turmoil. All of Chinatown was completely different, and all of New York City was completely different. [Second Tape] Q: Mr. Zhang, please continue speaking about the incident of 9/11. ZHANG: After 9/11 occurred, after I returned from Shanghai, the first thing I did was go back to my office. But they couldn’t let me in, because the entire National Guard had closed off everything starting with Canal Street. As soon as it was closed off, if you wanted to get in, they had to check your identification. For the first one or two weeks, they couldn’t let you in. After they loosened up, I went in, and upon going in, I discovered that the whole structure of the place had changed. At the time, I didn’t know how to describe it, and I didn’t know what the future would be like. You could walk all over Chinatown very comfortably, because, wherever you walked, there was no traffic. Lots of restaurants had closed their doors, lots of businesses were closed. I thought, none of our clients will come. We don’t have any more business. It wasn’t just us without business, all of Chinatown was like a ghost town, and lots of restaurants had closed up. If you went to eat lunch, lots of restaurants had just one table or two tables. For a long time, the whole business environment had changed. Our law firm’s environment had changed too. From that point on, the immigration business dropped off dramatically, and there was a huge change everywhere. We thought that it would be a very, very gradual process before it took off again, so we went through a very difficult period of adjustment. That’s why we paid extra close attention to giving law services to our clients. We could do some filing, do immigration according to the situation in society. At least we could provide every kind of – everything they were unclear about, we helped them with. So the moment of 9/11, that moment is something I probably will not forget my whole life. Even though I wasn’t in the US at that time, my family and my office were very close to the 9/11 twin towers, and I believe that experience was unique, something that you can not forget in a lifetime. The shock I felt, and the sense of powerlessness, I believe it wasn’t any less powerful than the people who personally saw the skyscrapers fall. The difference was only that the sensation came from a different perspective. Q: You came here during the time of the Cultural Revolution. Did you suffer any harassment during the Cultural Revolution? Comparing the troubles of the Cultural Revolution with the events of 9/11, how did they impact you differently? ZHANG: I was very small during the time of the Cultural Revolution, so there’s not that much that I can say. But my family had suffered some great blows then. My father had been dragged off many times, and because of the Cultural Revolution, his body became messed up, because at that time he was a tax official. About ten months before the outbreak of the Cultural Revolution, he had been sent to some new place to straighten out their tax situation, and then that’s when the Cultural Revolution started. He had been sent by the mayor of Shanghai, so he ended up beaten nearly lifeless, and was nearly dumped in Heilong River. At that time, during those experiences, I was very small. I was only 12 or 13 years old. But I think that experience caused me to grow up and become an adult. It was due to the shock to my family, because just think, you never knew when it might happen, sometime in the middle of the night, strangers might knock on the door, that sound of knocking. In a moment, a life that had been extremely tranquil became completely different. When there was a knock on the door, you didn’t know if they had come to snatch your father, or if they came to seize your home, or what. That fear, that sense of being terrorized, to speak of it from a different perspective, in my entire life, it has definitely been an unforgettable experience. I was also able to mature because of that. But the Cultural Revolution did not hurt me individually or anything. To have experienced it, I think, to have experienced the Cultural Revolution was an extremely different experience. That experience gave me lots of internal things for my future growth. It gave me a different way of considering certain problems. You could say I became comparatively sophisticated, or relatively complicated, or more mature than others. Q: After 9/11 occurred, after this terrorist strike, has that incident caused your attitude towards America to change? ZHANG: My attitude towards America changed, and that change came from two things. First, after 9/11, I suddenly realized that Americans love their country to a much deeper level than I had previously noticed. Their love is much broader and more common than I had realized. Americans’ love of country, to speak from a certain perspective, I think that compared to what I saw before in China, it goes beyond the love Chinese have for their country, and it is a broad-based feeling. They really love their country and they are really united. This country’s feeling of identity also suddenly increased dramatically. If 9/11 had never occurred, perhaps during my entire lifetime, Americans would never gain the sense of identity that they have now. The second change, I think the political atmosphere has trended conservative. As far as the shift towards conservatism goes, on the positive side is the devotion and love for their country. Everyone’s feeling of loving their country has become more conservative, or what has trended conservative is people’s love of country. But I think that from a certain point of view you can say that the change in government, they’ve shut themselves off a little too much. It’s started to be a bit different from the sort of energy that existed at the founding of this country. To me, this change is another thing that has deeply impacted me. Because my understanding of America and my love for America had originally been based on my study of many things, and based on my personal experiences prior to 9/11, my accumulation of over ten years of experience in America. This still hasn’t changed. I think this is a good country, it’s a country of immigrants. The good thing about this country is that it is extremely democratic. The good thing about this country is that it has a complete system of law which can protect every kind of person, and you have freedom of speech, freedom to do whatever you want, just as long as you don’t break the law. This kind of a system, in other places in the world, at least the places I’ve been to, in China, the Chinese legal system isn’t as perfect as America’s, and its level of freedom isn’t as broad as America. I also spent time in Hong Kong, and at that time England hadn’t yet given it back to China, and it was a very different place. It was Chinese people managing Chinese people, a really great place. My feeling was that, Singapore and Hong Kong are two places that have been managed extremely well, but their levels of freedom can obviously not compare to America. So, that’s something I really like about America. But due to the changes after 9/11, besides identifying myself even more with this country, I also felt a little worried. A part of what I’d come to value about this country had been taken away. I think part of the changes within the American government made me feel that I had returned to China, returned to the Cultural Revolution. Even though it wasn’t that broad, and wasn’t that deep, still, a lot of times I’m reminded of the experiences of my youth in China, of government meddling in every sort of thing. Actually, speaking generally, [America’s government] has become more encompassing, more powerful in its meddling in the lives of common people than the Chinese government. This is the thing that I fear most. Q: You’ve lived in different places, in mainland China, in Hong Kong, in America. Which place do you think of as your home, and which country do you feel that you are a member of? ZHANG: New York. That’s definite. Seven or eight years ago, the feeling wasn’t this passionate. In the past seven or eight years, very gradually, the feeling has become very strong. Why is that? Because each time I returned to my home, I felt like I was a visitor, because my community is already gone. Because China has developed very quickly, and Shanghai, where I grew up, where my parents had moved, they’ve torn up our home and moved around, and now the place they live has an excellent environment. But that environment is completely foreign to me. My classmates are gone, my friends are gone, my community is gone. I hadn’t been there, experiencing that whole period of development. So when I go back, I feel like a visitor, nothing else, just completely like a visitor. Each time I go, I’m really excited about going, but once I’m there, I want to come back even quicker. When I return to New York, I feel like it’s my home. New York is my home, not any other place in America. I really like Hong Kong, I really like Beijing, these are two other cities where I’ve spent a lot of time, and also Maine, Portland, Maine. But none of these places give me a feeling of home. My home is first of all New York, then Shanghai, and Shanghai is already a place where I feel like I am a visitor. That’s the complete and utter feeling I get. Q: Can you speak about your family? How many children do you have? What hope do you have for your future? ZHANG: I have one child. She came to America in 1997, and she’s developed here very well. This is another part of the American system that I really like. When she came, she couldn’t speak English, and we gave her lots of time. This was another reason why I wanted to start my own law firm, so that I could spend time at her side. I feel that no aspect of work is as important as raising a child. Let’s say I was extremely successful in my business, and yet raised my child very badly, or she had some kind of problem, I would think that I had failed. So, she’s been very successful up to now. When she came in April of 1997, she couldn’t speak even a little English, and yet she directly entered an American neighborhood. Half a year later, she took place in a test and tested into Bronx Science High School. Then after another half year, she graduated and went on to study. After she studied there, her grades were extremely good. We encouraged her to join her school’s debate team, and she was on the debate team’s A Squad. When she applied to colleges, there were about six that accepted her, University of Chicago, the Department of Economics, and then there was Brown University, Columbia University, Cornell University, Dartmouth College, and then MIT. Finally, she chose MIT. Right now, over there, she’s already a sophomore. Over there she chose to be an exchange student, so this year in October, she’s going to Cambridge, and will spend a year as an exchange student there. In two years, she’ll graduate. She too, she also really likes America. Over time, she has also begun to feel like a visitor in Shanghai. A few days ago, I discussed it with her, this year, during the summer, you can go to Taiwan and Hong Kong, because she’s really interested in Taiwan society, so she planned to go for three months, and to stop a little in Hong Kong. I asked her, “Do you want to go to Shanghai and see your grandparents a little?” They’ve become pretty old. She said she didn’t want to. I said, “Why don’t you want to go there?” She said, “I have no freedom there. They like to treat me as a child, and I have to be with them.” The way she feels when she goes back is the way I used to feel. Gradually, New York has become her home. After she studied in college, and also when she was studying in high school, I wanted to move to Queens, move to a different place. She didn’t want to. She said, “When I came to America, I lived at 78th Street and York Avenue, right here. This is my community. If you move, I won’t live with you.” So, that’s the reason I haven’t moved up to now. You can see that I feel that America is a great country for new immigrants. I’ve always said to her, you have to be thankful to this country. You can’t just take from it, you have to be like me, you have to think about what you can do for this community, and then go do it. That includes my professional work. I’ve done a lot of pro bono cases. With my clients, I don’t just think of money only. I help them. I told her, you have to be the same way. As an embryo, because you were born in under a one-child system, you were the only one, and could be more self-centered than a child emperor. When you came to America, you can’t just take everything from here, without giving anything back. This would be a life of failure. So, at the beginning of junior high, she began to work for a not-for-profit. One summer, she went to Hong Kong to do human rights, it was a worldwide human rights society, she helped them with the practical aspects of the group, and then she went to work in a hospital. I encouraged her to do it, if she didn’t go, I pushed her to go. So, you definitely have to pay back society. It’s not a matter of saying, I’m so smart and I can do anything, because this society has given you a lot. You have to see its good sides, you can’t absorb its bad qualities, and …. So, so far, we feel that our home is here, but we can’t completely chop off our natural connection to China, that’s something we can’t chop off. Q: What do you hope she does later in life? ZHANG: I hope that she does whatever she wants to do, and not follow some bad path. The good thing about America is that no matter what you might imagine, you can make your dream a reality. I think even when she was very little, she had a dream. We in our generation are definitely different from her. No matter how we think, we can’t think the same way as her, because of our age. We’re from a different generation. So I hope I don’t disturb her too much, but I also want to give her appropriate guidance. Whatever path she follows, if she enjoys it, I’ve got no problem, I will support her. Q: How old are you now? ZHANG: I was born in 1955, on June 26th, 1955, and I am 49 years old. Q: You’re very young. ZHANG: I think of it like this, this is a very exciting age. I can work hard and do a little more before I retire, on behalf of the community, on behalf of others, I can do anything. Q: You’ve come to America for such a long time, do you have any feelings about the Chinese community in New York? Is there any place that needs to be improved? ZHANG: The Chinese community has developed very quickly since I’ve come to America. I’m very happy to see that the Chinese community of today is different from the one that existed when I came to America. At that time, I felt that Cantonese was very powerful as a unifying force. But now you can see very easily, besides Cantonese, Mandarin Chinese is an even larger group. Besides people of Fujian descent, those that immigrated from Fuzhou, there are lots of immigrants from every place in China, from Shanghai, from Beijing. Our Flushing office has dealt with especially many clients who speak Mandarin, and even besides those from Taiwan who speak Mandarin, people from all over China all speak Mandarin. Now, the power of Chinese people is much greater. Our population numbers have certainly increased very much. But there’s still one problem, and that’s that we’re still not very unified in our approach to politics. If all the Chinese people could be a little more unified, regardless of whether you’re from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Canton [Guangdong], Fujian, Shanghai, Wenzhou, if everyone could unify, then we could send someone from our community to City Council, or send the person to run for the New York State Senate or House, or send them to run for the school board, and send them everywhere, and make our voice heard. For one thing, that would be great for the development of the Chinese community. Chinatown is a pretty unique organization. I think that Chinatown, this organization, it ought to unite Chinese organizations with different backgrounds, because a lot of the people who came from Taiwan, mainland China, Hong Kong, just like our backgrounds, they had really good backgrounds even before they came over here. We should completely incorporate this group of people into Chinatown, and completely break through the traditions of Chinatown, the reliance on traditional immigrants, and that would be a really great development. Even now, I have seen the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, the United Chinese Organization, all kinds have already started forming, it’s already developing in an excellent direction, but it’s not fast enough. I think that we should push this organization forward even faster, because Chinatown, New York is already part of American culture. It’s not a part of China’s culture. New York’s Chinatown is an extremely important part of New York. If there wasn’t any Chinatown in New York, the change to all of New York might be even greater than what occurred from the loss of the twin towers, all of New York would be different. So, this is something we Chinese residents of New York can be very proud of, but the development has not gone far enough. It should be more united, it should bring together people of every background, put them together in the same organization, not fight with each other, and everyone do as much as they can do. That way, our strength would be really great. In a country like America, if you have something good, they will notice you. All you need to do is lift up your voice, and you’ll be noticed, but right now our voices are too scattered, although the progress has been great. Q: What kind of plan do you have for the rest of your life? ZHANG: My plan for the rest of my life is like this, when I first came to America, my principle was, I want to do my best to separate myself from Chinatown. So I lived on 77th Street, and I didn’t live in a Chinese community. As far as what changes will take place during the rest of my life, two things are increasingly clear. First, to the limit of my abilities, I will develop my law firm to better serve the community. Whatever I can do, I will do. Secondly, to the limit of my abilities, I will use the background and knowledge that I gained previously in China together with the background and knowledge that I gained in America to help increase relations between China and America. In this area, I can do much more. These two areas, I can do a lot more. I have already started working in these areas. I think that before I retire, in these two areas, I can do a lot. I can do things for the community, for the relationship between China and America, using the knowledge I have towards both sides. This is what I want to do. Q: What future do you see for China? And it’s interaction with America? ZHANG: As far as China’s future, or its relationship, interacting with America, I think it will always be good. Along the way, there will be a lot of endless problems, and that’s because of the Taiwan issue. But that isn’t something for us to be concerned about. Speaking as Chinese people, regardless of whether you come from Taiwan or come from somewhere in China, we don’t think in that way. My daughter wants to go to Taiwan, and I completely encourage her to go. I also think about going to Taiwan, but I don’t have the time. I think the reason that the relationship between China and America will be good is that, outside of the Taiwan issue, there really isn’t any major problems. China and America have no quarrels. Besides one Chinese person at the time that I came to the US, all around me, in my circle, my friends, there’s nobody who dislikes America. We were all academics. Even if we didn’t like the US, we would then dislike Japan and the Soviet Union even more, or the Russia of today. We don’t have any problem with America. So I think the two sides will have more and more interaction, and it will be better all the time. Problems will always be there, but in regard to the economic relationship and such, America and China will become the world’s best partners, and will even replace the close relationship between America and Japan. I think after the Taiwan issue is solved, then everything must trend in that direction. Q: What advice do you have for current government officials, or for the Chinese community, what do you think could be done to better solve some of the problems since 9/11? ZHANG: Speaking of the community, the problems after 9/11 could be handled better. Regardless of the organization, they need to get rid of their biases, and everyone needs to communicate better. Right now, it doesn’t matter what group you belong to, what your past history was. Chinese organizations have a habit of thinking that a bunch of small cliques are better. I think that these cliques, regardless of whether they are Cantonese people, mainland Chinese, people from Taiwan, regardless of where they’re from, we should break through these cliques, and lift up our voices. We don’t want to have one group saying one thing and another group saying something entirely different. When two groups have different opinions, we need them to communicate, and after communication, both sides should yield. It would be best for us to raise up one voice together. In the time before and after I retire, I will work towards this goal. I’ve written many articles for Xing-Dao Daily News, and yet I don’t have a Cantonese background. I’ve only spent a few years working in Hong Kong, and that’s not because I’m some Chinese-American who’s been here a long time. I’m from Taishan, and yet I’m leaving that completely aside to speak up. I hope that everyone follows this same path, tries to serve the community, do more to serve the community. Leave lots of bias to the side. I still have lots of hope. If people with our kind of background can encourage others, and encourage ourselves too, and if we take part in society, I feel certain that a much more powerful voice will come forth from our community. The important thing is, we have to do something concrete. The relationship between China and America is the same way, I will use all my knowledge to serve the communities, on both sides. Q: Thank you for your time. ZHANG: You’re welcome. Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：這裏是美洲華人歷史博物館，紐約華埠9/11的口述歷史訪問。今天我們請到了張中越律師做訪問，訪問人是我吳翊菁。張律師，你可以講一下，你是什麽時候從大陸來到美國的？ 張：我是1989年3月19日到達美國的。來美國的原因是美國的一個學術委員會讓我來參加一個國際會議，這個國際會議的主題是關於跨國公司在全球的經營。那麽我的主題是寫有關美國跨國公司在中國的直接投資，它的行爲模式，和日本的跨國公司在中國的投資和歐洲的跨國公司在中國投資的研究。那個研究是我自己的研究領域。我在中國的復旦大學待了十四年，包括讀本科，在那裏教書，然後又讀了碩士研究生，是世界經濟領域的。當中我接觸了大量的西方經濟學的理論，然後我又到了北京大學，作爲訪問學者去了一年，是在1980年至1981年。在這個期間，我中間參加了中國西方經濟學的研究會，當時我是最年輕的一個會員。因爲那個原因，我因爲有復旦大學及北京大學的背景，我有機會接觸到中國當時最好的一個學術領域，特別是對西方經濟學和海外直接投資這個領域，有機會可以進行些研究。我的本科是讀英美語言文學的。在1977年初畢業的時候，當時中國很少有讀了四年出來的大學生，我是在復旦大學的英美語言文學系。初出的目的，他們是培養我們做外交官的，派到各個駐外的使館和領館。 從秘書開始，因爲得有語言的基礎，從三秘、二秘，一路培養下去。但是因爲77年的外交調整，我們畢業以後就留在學校裏了。留到學校裏之後，我就開始學經濟學。一面做老師，一面在經濟系聽課，所以有機會接觸到中國當時最好的經濟系和經濟課程設置的重心。 問：你覺得你念文學是你自己的興趣吧？ 張：念文學不是自己的興趣。因爲我在大學讀書的時候，那時還是在文化大革命當中，那是在1972年年底。當時的中國的大學，因爲文革的時候全部關閉了，剛剛開始。我們大概是唯一的一批從中學直接進到大學的，全國大概只有600個人。 問：你那時候在上海？ 張：在上海復旦大學，對。 問：那你就算是第五代了？ 張：第五代，第幾代的演算法都不是很相同，應該我比第五代再早一點。 問：那你覺得念文學跟念經濟是兩個很不同的領域？ 張：文學和經濟是完全不同的領域。文學的話，你的想象力要很豐富，你的文學的背景要很好，你的思維要有一種比較豐富的，跟現實不同的一種想象力。 但是經濟學的很多東西跟science（科學）結合在一起，你要有很好的邏輯思維。除了你對社會的現實要有很多的瞭解，理論上也要有很多的研究，要跟數學和科學領域有很大的聯繫。所以它們兩個基本上是不同的領域。 問：你覺得哪一個你比較喜歡，還是說它們是互補的？ 張：我一開始進去讀英美語言文學的時候，我並沒有覺得因爲我喜歡我才進去，就是因爲他們選了我我才進去的。因爲我們每個中學在上海最多只有一個名額，有的名額還沒有。我的中學是一個很好的一個中學，格致中學。這個格致中學到現在爲止的歷史大概有150年，在清朝的時候已經設置了。當時我記得我們的同學有一千多個，就去了我一個。不是憑我的興趣，而是他們叫我去的。讀了以後，慢慢慢慢我覺得我對文學就很有興趣了。那麽畢業以後爲什麽可以轉經濟學呢？因爲我當時覺得，一個男同學畢業以後做老師，一直教英語，這只是一個工具。那麽我希望把英語作爲我的工具，而不是一個主要的專業。這樣的話，我可以在其他專業上有很大的優勢，我可以用英語讀很多的書。那麽正好到經濟系實習，我就對經濟有興趣了。總的來講，我對經濟學非常有興趣，對它的興趣要超過以前對文學的興趣。 問：你在文革以後可以念書，你覺得是很幸運嗎？你父母、你家裏怎麽看? 張：我在文革當中能讀書是非常之幸運的。因爲中國的中學生裏面，可能是幾百萬裏面， 只有我們六百個每一年可以進去。那是歷史時期的一種特殊的産物吧。我們家裏當時也很開心，因爲我爸爸媽媽都沒有讀過大學。我媽媽是八歲開始就出來做童工的，我爸爸是十四歲就出來做童工的。他們的認識就是因爲他們在做工的時候一起在戲院裏面賣糖果。其實我父母的家庭以前，民國之前，都是很大的家庭；但是因爲中國社會的變化，家庭都敗落了。他們當然很開心我能讀大學。 問：你有其他的兄弟姐妹嗎？ 張：我有一個弟弟。 問：他在做什麽？ 張：他在上海黃浦區的一個政府部門工作。 問：那張先生，你來到美國以後，你對美國的第一個印象是什麽？爲什麽你後來想留下來呢？ 張：初出來的時候我並沒有想要留下來，因爲在那兒的職業﹑那兒的工作﹑那兒的機會都是很好。但是因爲---，來的原因是，當時我的論文，我就隨便送了一篇報告過來。我說我想要參加這個會議，因爲國內有好幾個很出名的專家教授。有一個是中山大學經濟學院的院長，他是哈佛大學畢業的，是康橋大學畢業的，那是四十年代的時候。我在三﹑四次國際會議的場合碰到他。因爲當時我年齡相對比較小，英文比較好，所以直接可以閱讀大量的經濟學的著作。因爲我在復旦大學和北京大學的關係，當年接觸到這些最先進的資料。他跟我說，你應該出去，把你的觀點跟其他學者交流一下， 因爲正好你出來的時候處於中國開始改革，開始吸收外資的時候；那麽你的一手資料和你的知識可能跟外國的學者不是很一樣，這樣出去的話會對你對我們這個國家都很好。所以因爲那樣的原因，他就給了我一個資訊說，那一年，88年的3月份紐約國際會議是有關跨國公司的，是登在美國一本雜誌上面的。那麽我在87年的10月份就寫了一封信給他們，說我有興趣參加你們這個會。他們說你報一個題目過來，那我就報一個題目，說美國跨國公司在中國的直接投資，它的行爲模式和日本和歐洲公司的比較。因爲我在這個領域裏面的研究當時在中國是很前面的，特別是我對日本跨國公司在中國的直接投資。當時中國國內很少有人說日本有什麽理論的，跨國公司的直接投資；我說它有，它跟歐洲，跟美國不一樣。所以因爲我的這篇論文，很多人都知道我。我給那個組織委員會寫了一封信，他們就馬上給我復信，說你這個題目的本身就是對我們的會議的一個貢獻，沒有這樣的題目過來，希望你趕緊把論文寫過來。所以我就在10月份把這個論文用英文打好後送到委員會，他們就邀請我了。但是在邀請我的時候，我說我當時得不到資助，因爲我當時已是講師以上的一個角色，他們已經在等待批我的副教授。當時因爲年輕的副教授很難批的，我已經都報上去了，等我這次出國回去以後就要批給我了。因爲我出版了不少著作，西方經濟學的書，所以來的時候沒有準備好要來。他們邀請我過來的話，我就跟他們講我在這方面的知識。 問：那爲什麽你留下來？ 張：留下來是因爲來了之後我就覺得接觸了很多學者，我想只來幾天的話，可能對美國不會瞭解很多。儘管我花了十幾年的功夫學了大量的有關東方和西方的經濟學，教了好幾年的書，我覺得應該稍微留下來再看一下，看看這個社會到底跟我們以前書上看到的、大量接觸的有什麽不同。那麽只是幾天的功夫的話，我會覺得比較困難。第二個原因是，費用全部是我自己出的，來的飛機票什麽的都是我自己出的。大會給了我一部份的補貼，就是旅館的費用，因爲通常是不會給補貼的，給了我幾天旅館費用。那麽我就簽證，一下子就出來了，想稍微住久一點。住了一陣子以後，有一些另外的原因，可能與我原來的學校不是很開心。那麽這樣的話就造成我住更久一點，就這樣住下來了。 問：辦這個會議的組織是哪一個？ 張：辦這個會議的組織是美國企業管理協會，美國國務院下面委託Hofstra University在長島的，組織的一個非常高層次的國際會議。 問：那你來以後在紐約住在哪里？ 張：開會以後，出來以後，我什麽情況都不瞭解，我只是想出來看一下這個世界到底怎麽回事。當時身上錢並不是很多，跟當時在Hofstra University的留學生，有一個是法---，我都不認識他們。一位是法學院的，一位是經濟系的，一位是數學系的。他們說長島其實離紐約很近，紐約是一個非常不同的地方。 他們說你就是坐長途汽車，然後坐Subway（地鐵），就可以直接到紐約。那裏有報紙，你可以看一下，有很大的中國人的社區。這樣的話呢，我就把兩個箱子寄在那個學校裏面，然後就坐Bus，然後坐Subway到紐約。 問：你來到紐約，你的第一個印象是什麽？ 張：來紐約的時候，當時我有很多不同的感想。第一，我經濟上沒有多少的費用，我當時身邊只有29塊美金。原因是我出來的時候是自費，當時國內的收入是比較有限。我們也沒有可能說自己有很多的外幣，不可以有外幣的。所以出來的時候我借了一部份同學的錢，因爲他們到美國來過，他們有積蓄在那邊，他們借了美金給我。我買了飛機票，把主要的生活費用基本cover一下，然後到紐約只有29塊錢了。那麽第二的話呢，假如不到唐人街來的話，其他地方他們都說會很困難。因爲儘管當時語言文學學了很久，也教過英語，但是不知道我講的語言跟美國本地講的語言能不能溝通，能不能很方便。所以都是很大的距離在那邊，所以一下就走到了唐人街。來的第一天，我不知道住在哪里，他們說，你買一份報紙，有世界日報，當時還有中報和其他的報紙。你可以去---，上面有找工作﹑租房子的。我就這樣沒有朋友，沒有親戚，就過來。我記得來了以後，一下從地鐵出來以後，我坐在Mott Street和Canal Street的交口這個地方。第一個感覺是，啊，這麽多中國人的東西、招牌，走的人全部是中國人，覺得很親切。馬上又感到很陌生，因爲當時看到的中國人很多，很少人講我本地的語言，上海話，很少人講普通話，或者是說國語，都是講廣東話。廣東話我一個字都聽不懂。所以坐在那兒的話，第三個，有點彷徨。 身上沒有錢，不知道第一天住在哪里，然後工作在什麽地方找。所以，那個街頭我坐了大概是半個小時，我吃了兩個雞蛋。這個雞蛋是在Hofstra University他們幾個私派的留學生出來之後給我帶出來的，說，你去看怎麽樣？所以，第一天就是這樣到紐約來的。來了以後，我就從唐人街一直在找工作，每個餐館去問有沒有工作可以做。找到工作的話，我可以靠自己的能力，或者是到學校裏讀書或者先安定下來。所以一直從中國街每個餐館找，他們說，你會不會講廣東話？我說，不會。那麽他們說，就不可以了，你不講廣東話，不能溝通，就沒有工作機會。我一路從唐人街走到Upper Westside，往西邊走，走到了第八大道左右的57街，走進了一家中國餐館。我一路看到中國餐館我就進去問他們，那麽這時候見到了一位先生，挺不錯的一位先生，他是從中國山東來的。他在那個飯店裏面，我記得那個飯店叫“湖南園”吧，做外賣經理。他說，你這個人看起來是新到這個地方，什麽地方來的？我說，我是從上海來的。他說，我們裏面有一位送外賣的先生，是上海人，我幫你跟他介紹一下，看你是好像沒有個地方落腳，先進來給你吃一頓飯吧！ 我在他們飯店裏面吃的飯，我記得當時他給我吃了芥蘭牛和湯，然後給了我五塊錢的quarters。他說，你就用這個錢去打電話，到處打電話找你的朋友。我說，我說我沒有朋友在這邊，我也沒有親戚在這邊。他說，你反正找工作什麽都可以。我說，我怎麽謝你，我都不認識你，你也對我這麽好，特別是第一天，我都不知道住在什麽地方。他說，都不要緊，以後你假如能成功的話，請我吃頓飯就可以了。但到現在爲止，我也不知道這位先生在哪里。在這個店裏面，有一個上海來的先生出來了，他比我年輕。 他看了我一眼之後，他說，這樣吧，我看你這個人挺好的，我住在皇后區，這個地方叫Rego Park。他住在很小的一個地下室，basement，房租也是很便宜。我估計你也不會有錢，你就跟我一起住吧，然後你找到地方，你就搬出去。所以，那天我就跟他回到了Rego Park皇后區那個地方。住的地方是很小，這個房間除了放一張床，旁邊比床大一點的位置就沒有了。他說，這樣吧，他把床的床墊拉下來，他睡在床墊上，我就睡在spring box上面。在那個上面睡了三個月，當時也不知道，因爲沒有錢，很緊張，說要去買個床的話又會很貴。初出來的話，都很緊張，所以在那個上面整整睡了三個月。以後就開始找工作，找工作就是因爲那位上海的先生，他叫陳建新，Jason，非常好的一個年輕人，他說，這樣，我幫你介紹。我就開始慢慢慢慢在餐館裏面開始送外賣。同時，我唯一沒想到的是，他說，你完全可以---，因爲你是B-1 Visa進來的，你可以申請轉成學生身份。我說，我可以，但是我沒有人幫我做擔保。他說，我來幫你做擔保。他因爲家庭有很多人移民在美國和加拿大，他就轉了一大筆錢到我的銀行裏面。我跟他認識都差不多只有一兩個星期，轉到我銀行裏面八千多塊錢。這樣的話我就自己找了一個Kaplan，那個英語學校，就去轉學生身份，然後在那裏學語言。就這樣轉成功了，所以那兩位，特別是後面那一位是非常不容易的，我非常感謝他。 問：那張先生，好像你以前在大陸是教書的，而且工作都比較好，沒那麽辛苦吧？那你來到這裏要從底做起，要可能做餐館。這個落差應該很大，你自己怎麽去適應？ 張：這個落差非常之大，要比所有的文字寫出來，你怎麽描寫它大的話，都可能不一定很確切地能把當時的落差表現出來。我在大陸的環境相對來講非常不錯，我的機遇都是不錯的，然後我做的工作都已經到了很好的程度。我到美國來並不是因爲我的環境不好，我過來要換環境，主要是我剛才說的兩個原因。一個是，從少到大，我處在中國一個變化最大的時刻，從很封閉，從共產黨各個方面都管制得很緊，到慢慢慢慢政府開始在經濟上放鬆了，開始對外面開放了。變化非常之大的時候，所以我有一種urge，特別是我學的是英美語言文學和西方的經濟學。我有這個衝動，我一直想出來看一下我以前學的東西是不是跟這兒教的東西，或者跟這個社會是一回事？這是一個非常重大的一個衝動。我其實在88年之前的十年裏面，每一年我都有機會出來，到美國，到歐洲去。因爲我當時畢業的時候沒有21歲的大學生，英語在國內相對來講已經是正式專業畢業的，而且是在復旦大學，全國就是六百個。那麽，我申請留學任何時候都是可以的。當時沒有申請留學的原因是我覺得中國開始變化了。假如我出去讀英美語言文學的話，除了語言我什麽都不懂，國內變化這個過程完全我就失去了。以後再回國來，到中國來工作的話，我就是完全不瞭解中國的人了。所以我就轉學經濟學，瞭解社會，很大的參予；這十年裏面我沒有來。所以，我出來並不是因爲我以前的環境不好，但是我的衝動可能要比以前在中國環境不好，想出來換一個環境的那種衝動更大，理由是我已經是一個知識份子了。知識份子的那個想象力和那種激情可能要比其他不同的階層的人更天真，所以我這個天真的想象力是我非常重大的一個衝力。 當然也有一點其他的原因，但都不是很重要。 問：那你來到美國以後，你覺得你看到的美國跟你以前課本上念的美國或者想象的美國有什麽不一樣？ 張：我看到的美國，這樣說吧，我看到的紐約，我覺得跟美國其他地方不一樣。因爲我第一站是停在---，我進美國的第一站是在San Francisco，舊金山。機場裏面待了四個小時，轉飛機就到了Washington DC。在舊金山的時候，海關的官員和移民局的官員都很客氣，都很友好。我也有看到亞洲人的面孔，我覺得可能是有一種比較親近感，沒有那麽的陌生。到了Washington DC，我以爲是美國管理學會的會長會派人來接我，因爲我帶了上海市汪道涵的一封信，跟他們來討論在中國舉行一個國際會議的事情。我帶了他的信來的，沒想到他到義大利出差去了，沒有收到我這個傳真。所以我在飛機場裏面就很緊張，沒人來接我，我也不知道出去怎麽走，那麽就在機場裏面睡了一個晚上。當時緊張到什麽地步呢？因爲完全是一個全新的國家，沒有亞洲人的面孔，有兩三個不同族裔的，有黑人的少數民族，有西班牙語系的少數民族，大概四﹑五個人在機場候機室裏面等著。我是唯一的一個亞洲人，我當時有一點怕，心情有一點怕。所以一晚上睡在那裏面，一晚上沒出去，反正二十分鐘醒一下，十五分鐘醒一下，擔心行李不要給人家拿掉，不知道會發生什麽情況。第二天一早碰到一個清潔工，機場的清潔工，他看起也來是一個黑人和白人結合的一個民族。他說，你這樣的情況下，我給你兩個quarter，你打電話找你的朋友。那時候，我有一個George Washington University，一個中國教授的電話，我就打給他。他說， 喔，你已經來了！他就來接我了。所以那個人我也是很感謝他的，儘管給了我兩個quarter，但是我就可以跟外面的朋友聯繫上，所以一下就把我接出去了。 問：張先生，你可以講一下在紐約你從餐館做起，那你怎麽後來變成一個律師呢？中間有什麽故事？ 張：紐約做餐館是這樣，我初出時讀書讀語言文學---，在Kaplan讀語言，我想把英語提高一下。儘管我們學了很多的英語，跟這兒美國人講的英語還是有一點區別。我可以跟人家溝通，沒什麽問題，我可以發表演講。但我現在回過頭去想，那個時候的英文是以中國學校裏面學出來的爲主，和在這兒生活一段以後的英文應該是不一樣的。儘管現在的英文和以前非常之不一樣，但是我還是感覺到和美國土生土長的美國人相比的話還是有區別。當時學了以後，就過來看了一下這個社會，就覺得在紐約的Chinatown這個地方可能不一定適合我。不適合我的原因是我不會講廣東話，不知道怎麽融合進去。所以讀語言是在57街Westside，然後做一點送外賣的工，讀了一陣以後就覺得好像是光讀語言的話跟我以前讀的書不太符合，我應該是走回我的專業。所以我就申請到City University of New York, Graduate Center，申請它的經濟學博士，PhD program in Economics。那個主任非常好。他說，你是復旦大學畢業，而且有碩士學位，我就完全承認你的學分。36個學分都承認，就錄取我了。錄取我以後，我就讀了一個學期的PhD in Economics。但是突然一下錢就用光了，打工打來的錢，學費要自己交，讀書的時候又不能做工，學費一下沒有了。就很緊張，所以又出來做工， 在82街Second Avenue第二大道做外賣經理。做了以後和幾個中國出來的教授，都是年輕的，聽他們說，在五個街口之外，有一個餐館要賣掉，然後說去看一下吧。就這樣一看的話一個星期之後就把那個餐館合夥賣下來了，在85街第3大道，就這樣一下進入這個餐館。餐館的工作很辛苦，因爲你有很大的responsibility。一個主要的考慮是我覺得在中國我們沒有這個商業環境，所以我要做生意精明一下，那麽可能對美國社會一下就會熟悉進來了。當時除了買餐館的時候請了一個律師之外，其他所有的事情都是我們自己做的。申請衛生牌照，各種各樣的license都是我們自己做。所以當時做的時候我就說，我做十年五年，我一定要重新回學校。做的時候就是這樣考慮的，所以就做進去了。做得非常辛苦，第一年七天沒有休息。當時身體很好，因爲30歲出頭，我讀書的時候鍛煉得很多，身體也是很好，所以精力沒有問題，睡覺睡得少也沒有問題。就是當時有一種衝動，就是想做成一個事業瞭解這裏的社會，所以就這樣進去了。那麽現在叫我再進去的話，照那樣做的話，我就不一定會有這些了。 問：那你在那個餐館做了多久？ 張：餐館是從89年的年底開始一直做到93年的時候，93年還是94年就賣出去了。我當時決定要去讀法學院的時候餐館還在，我讀了一個學期又回來，把餐館賣了，再回去讀法學院。大概差不多做了4年左右。 問：那後來你爲什麽那麽有興趣在這裏當律師？ 張：當律師的事情是這樣，因爲讀法學院的故事很有趣，怎麽有趣呢？當時我跟我太太在商量，回去讀書的話要讀什麽好？因爲我儘管是很幸運，我在文化大革命當中有機會上大學，但同時也受到了文化革命對教育衝擊的一種副作用，或者一種影響。什麽影響呢？因爲中學的時候很多學校都沒有規則了，上學的課程都打亂了，文革之前的正規的基礎教育都沒有了。所以我們的數理化學得非常之少，所以我回去讀書的話我是讀經濟學，當時考慮到讀經濟學，美國很多學校都有數理化的東西在裏面，特別是數學的模式。這樣的話，我說這不是我的特長，我任何專業要去讀的話我希望避開數學，數學沒有正式地訓練過。所以這樣的話選擇就不是很多，除了經濟學以外，你可以選歷史History，你可以選Administration行政的，你可以選政治學Politics，你可以學法學。那天晚上我記得很清楚，我說讀什麽比較好呢？我們就flip the coin。一個quarter flip上去，head or tail。假如是head，我們就去讀法學院。最後是head，就決定讀法學院，就這樣去了。 問：你是跟你太太一塊去念的嗎？ 張：我自己一個人念的。 問：你太太是後來從大陸過來的嗎？還是在這邊--- 張：她是比我來得早，她是在做不同的專業。 問：你們是怎麽認識的？ 張：在紐約認識的。 問：讀法學院以後，你什麽時候開自己的律師樓？ 張：讀了法學院96年畢業之前，我花了3年---。我在University of Maine, School of Law讀法學的。我最後一年是作爲visiting student to Brooklyn Law School，因爲我的家在紐約，我希望回到紐約，我太太也在紐約。所以當時就申請Brooklyn Law School作爲visiting student，它是一個私立的法學院。所以96年畢業之後，就停在紐約了。在紐約的時候，當時並沒有覺得自己要出來開律師事務所,因爲我所有的背景都是跟大公司﹑大的學校﹑大的機構有關係的。特別是讀法學院當中，每一年我都要到香港去，作爲training或者是作爲intern，幫香港的兩家非常好的律師事務所做一些法律上面的工作。他們請我去的原因是因爲我對中國的制度，對中國的法律很熟，我又在美國讀法學，我對香港的情況也是比較熟，因爲我到美國來之前寫過幾篇文章。當時說香港今後和中國今後的變化會是怎麽樣，是中國大陸對香港的影響更大一點呢，還是香港的影響對中國大陸更大一點，我有很深入的研究。所以他們請我去是做IPO股票上市的一部份的工作，他們是幫中國的公司在香港股票交易事務所做H股的上市，做評估和做很多underwriting。那麽我是幫他們做reorganization(重組)裏面這部分，他們要用我的expertise(專才)在這個領域去看，這個deal可不可以通過，重組的話怎麽弄。所以幫他們---，直接我是對他們的management負責，儘管我當時還沒畢業。所以，我每年夏天的時候，從94年開始，94、95、96年都有去，有一年的冬天都去。兩個律師事務所一個是“Deacons Graham and James，”是香港最大的，第一個firm。另外一個是一個Top 5 London City firm, called “Simmons & Simmons。”那一段時間對香港的很多情況就開始熟悉起來。 問：那你是一開始就從事辦移民申請的案件嗎？還是有做別的？ 張：那個時候完全是做公司法的，corporate，我沒有想到要從事移民或其他什麽。但是在1997年有個情況變化，我畢業以後不久，我的女兒從中國上海移民過來。因爲我是在95年就申請成爲美國公民了，那麽我就把她申請到美國來。她來了以後我就覺得我在大的公司裏面做的話要花費大量的時間，我沒有時間take care她。她來的時候是13歲，這樣的時候是一個年齡很重要的時候，所以我就要花更多的時間和她在一起。那個時候我就第一次想，我出來自己做吧。以前都不喜歡自己出來做的，那麽自己出來做的話跟我以前做的法律就完全不同了。所以我就辭掉了我那時候在美國大的律師事務所工作的機會，到了一家專門做意外傷害的律師事務所。挺好的一個New York City firm，在Vesey Street，在中國人的社區裏面也是很出名的。作爲它的華裔律師，專門打意外傷害的官司。我的工資降低了非常非常地多，我就是想有很多的experience，上法庭的經驗。所以在那兒做了十個月，天天上法庭，大量地接觸了中國的客人，代表律師事務所，意外傷害和工傷的。十個月之後我就---，1998年十月份我就自己出來開律師事務所，99年初正式開始了。開始以後我做的業務是general practice，因爲你一個人出來的話是一個人的律師事務所，solo practitioner。開始就是我一個人，移民我也做，公司法也做，離婚也做，刑事糾紛的也做，總的來說是一個general practice。相對來講在中國人的社區移民的比較多，占到了50％以上。 問：那你覺得你做移民申請有什麽挑戰嗎？而且我想美國移民政策一直在改變，對你的生意有什麽影響？ 張：我剛剛出來的時候，我的幾個已經在外面做律師的朋友跟我說，比較困難，市場很緊張。 原因是我99年初出來，98年年底出來，99年年初之前，正好有幾撥新的移民法從96年開始有改革。1996年之前非常容易做，律師也不是很多，移民法很寬鬆。96年以後有了很大的改變，97年，98年，因爲97年的改變又給當時的律師帶來很多機會。我出來的時候已經沒有什麽現成的新的移民法，律師也很多，挑戰性就很大。舉一個例子，在96年、97年新的移民法改革以後，移民法裏面有一條規定，申請政治庇護必須要在進入美國一年之內提出來，不提出來以後就沒有機會了，除非你有很強的理由告訴法庭爲什麽這個一年的限制對你不適用。這個限制要求是很嚴格的，突然你的國家發生變化，美國的法律發生變化，或者有很多很多非常例外的情況發生，你才可以提出政治庇護。在96、97年之前，隨時隨地你可以提出來，你進入這個國家五年、十年都可以的。總的來說，移民法就是越來越緊。我出來的時候是在移民法越來越緊張的時候出來的。當時很多中國的客戶，特別是從福建來的，他們有很多移民的問題來問；但是當時的事機並不是很好，競爭也是很激烈。 問：你可以講一下這個行業嗎？這個華人律師在紐約的行業？在你來這裏這麽多年有什麽變化？ 張：律師行業的變化很大。在我開業，98年年底開業以後的一個最大的變化是2000年底到2001年的4月底之中，當時的總統，克林頓總統，簽署了一個行政命令，讓很多本來是非法的移民可以拿到移民法的福利。我們通常稱它是245(i)。245(i)就是一種特赦，不是一個全面的特赦。它給在2000年12月底之前已經進入美國的，沒有被驅逐出境的，沒有法庭程式的一個機會提出移民的申請； 但你要證明2000年12月底你已經在美國。這個申請必須要在2001年4月30日之前提出，你可以提出申請勞工紙，親屬的移民，各種各樣的移民，只要是合法都可以提出來。提出來以後，儘管過了2001年4月30日，因爲你在這個之前提出，你就有那個福利了。這個福利就是，你在2001年4月30日之前提出的申請不批准，那麽你以後再提出其他的移民案件申請假如能批准的話，就可以讓你合法地在美國調整身份，不需要到國外去調整身份。那個時候是一個業務非常忙的時候，除了這個之外，整個移民法在往下調整。2001年4月30日的245(i)實行了之後，整個移民律師，整個新移民都是很開心。因爲覺得美國的政策在放鬆，給很多非法進來的人一種機會，讓他們在這裏提出調整身份。受益的人可能有幾百萬，我們中國人社區受益也是很大。我們事務所當時的發展就是在這一撥245(i)新的法律裏面一下子發展起來的，很多很多的業務就是這樣過來的。原因是我們調整的比較快，我們對新移民法的理解比較快。很多律師事務所失去了這樣的一個機會；他們覺得這個東西不要去搞它，沒有做，就失去了這個機會。所以有一批律師事務所就一下膨脹起來，我們算是其中的一個。一下子律師事務所的規模大了，客戶的規模也大了。當然在這裏面就學到很多新的東西，很多新的挑戰，因爲我們在1998年之前沒有做自己的律師事務所。在這個移民法以後一直會覺得新一撥的245(i)會重新再出來，克林頓總統會簽名，說延長這樣一個法律。這個對新移民，特別對我們中國的移民，新移民，沒有身份的，是非常之好的，可以得到它的好處。然後，總統選舉之前他沒有簽署行政命令。當時新的總統，布希總統上臺之後，他已經答應了，說這個命令要簽署。他跟國會已經提出了，國會的參議院和衆議院都已經討論了，沒有問題，會簽的，把這個法案延遲下去，讓後來的人或者當時沒有機會申請的人重新申請。9/11爆發了，整個移民法都改變了。這個改變就是向非常保守的方向改變。所以這個以後的整個移民法的改變對新移民，不管是非法的，特別是偷渡的，等於設置了非常多的障礙。因爲9/11以後的變化，移民法的收緊， 各種背景調查，各種新的移民法的頒佈，給特別是非法偷渡的移民帶來了很多的困難。我覺得從我們的業務當中來看，偷渡的人減少了。以前大量的偷渡的人來，因爲美國移民法修整以後，不讓你這麽容易申請政治庇護，或是不讓你這麽容易可以直接地通過很複雜的法庭程式來得到好處，那麽他們來的就相對比較少。舉一個例子來說，以前的移民法的上訴都要好幾年的時間才會有結果下來，一個上訴案子都是要由三個移民上訴庭的法官合議了之後，判決下來才可以的，兩個支援，一個反對，那麽兩個人的意見就占上峰了。那麽這樣的話要五、六年或四、五年的時間，都是很正常的。一個好處是在你上訴還沒有決定的這幾年時間你就是合法在這裏的。你可以做工，沒有人會抓你或者怎麽樣。那麽，9/11前後，9/11前面就已經開始考慮變了，9/11以後就變了。上訴法庭很多的法官就被解除職務了，換到其他地方去了。現在只有一個法官就可以定上訴案贏或者輸。他們大量加快這樣的一個程式，討論也沒有這麽仔細。所以否定移民的案例，第一是非常之多，比以前多很多，第二是非常之快。所以整得新移民很困難。 問：你可以講一下你高峰期，也就是克林頓那個時期，你的客戶大概有多少？跟現在9/11之後比一下減了多少？ 張：這樣說吧，我沒有一個統計說，高峰期的客戶有多少。高峰期的時候，我每天都要上法庭的。政治庇護的申請，我每天至少一個法庭。最多的一天我記得是七個法庭，四個不同的法官。我跑來跑去，跑來跑去，好像一天不到移民法庭去上庭的話，就會覺得空很多。現在呢，假如一個星期裏面有兩、三次法庭 已經是很忙了。就是，一個星期裏面有一、二、三次法庭，不管是否在一天，或者是在一起，都是很忙了。很明顯的是，這個我可以告訴你，變化是很清楚的。政治庇護的申請大量地減少，減少的程度在我們的業務裏面是95％。什麽樣的原因造成政治庇護案件的減少？因爲偷渡進來的案件減少了。通常我們的政治庇護假如說是客人來請我們幫他做擔保，有親戚在這邊說，能擔保出來，不要讓他在裏面，他出來之後會做政治庇護。那麽你假如是偷渡進來，被政府拘禁了，就是關在裏面的人少了，自然政治庇護提出來的人也少。所以更多的變化是我們的 50％的案子是把客人從移民監獄裏面合法地擔保出來的業務，50％都沒有了。和9/11之前比，就有這麽大的變化。 問：那你怎麽去調整你的業務呢？ 張：第一，儘管我們的業務少，它對你現在的影響還沒有這麽大，原因是你從非法入境到你法庭程式的結束少則一、兩年，多則三、四年。從移民局的程式到法庭的程式，一庭一庭上下來，到上訴結束，總歸是這樣。所以你現在的影響實際上是兩年前政策的改變到現在才會體現出來。所以，我們現在還是有一部分的案子以前過來的，還沒結束。那麽，從現在開始沒有的話，我可以預計兩年以後這類的案子基本是相對非常之少了。我們的調整是這樣，我們儘量幫助---。因爲儘管是法律改變得很緊張，但是還是有很多不同的移民案子，我們繼續還是做，假如有合法擔保的話我們會做。合法政治庇護申請的話，我們還是做。我們以前做的很多的客戶，政治庇護案件成功了，綠卡申請成功了， 他們有很多新的案子會出來。他們的親戚朋友的移民，父母姐妹的移民；然後他們穩定了以後，他們要買房子，他們要做生意，他們都會回來找我們的。9/11以前我們做的filing做得不是很多，就是說親屬移民，結婚的移民。從2003年之前開始，我們就很注意這方面的情況，我們在這個領域已經是做得非常成功的。幫助大量的親屬移民，跟政治庇護沒有關係的這種移民，我們發展得非常快。這樣說吧，我們現在在這方面的業務以前只是我們，9/11之前，或者剛好我們開始的時候，只是10％、15%。那麽現在這方面移民filing的業務已經變成我們80％的業務了。這樣，它很大程度可以彌補掉政治庇護沒有成功的這方面的情況。第二方面的原因，我們覺得新的移民法可能還會出來，可能是程度不同，範圍不同。比如說，布希總統說的，臨時計劃，或者國會參衆兩議院提的各種各樣的方案，民主黨，共和黨的。完全是因爲現在政治的關係，最近還沒有---。去年就開始講了，因爲選舉的關係，可能他們在選時機，看哪一段時間會出來，這個計劃是其中之一。Dream Act是另外一個，就是說，你小孩子進來讀高中讀了五年，一直在學校裏讀書；你能證明，他們就會給你綠卡，這些最後都沒定。但是，我估計今年或明年差不多應該是時間要出來了。一旦這一類新的法律出來，我們的律師事務所一定會走在前面，因爲我們對前面一輪的245(i)一下全部投入進去，後面的消化做得很好。特別是我們後面做移民的filing做得非常好。這樣的話，把移民服務的範圍，兩個方面一下都加入進去了。假如新的法律出來，我們發展的餘地要比前一次更大，我們都已經準備好了。我們事務所是---，因爲我是學者的關係，我不知道其他律師事務所是怎麽做的，我們有一個內部的培訓的一個機制。我們是on the weekly basis，我們開會討論新的案例，我們碰到的比較難的案例，或者是新的移民法。我們在去年的六月份又新開設了第二家律師事務所， 在Flushing，除了這家以外在Flushing，完全是我們內部機制運作的另外一個結果。所以，我們兩個事務所對中國人的兩個最大的社區提供服務。在那邊，根據我們積累的經驗發展得也不錯。所以，我們有一個內部的機制，一直在討論，一直在學習，在報紙上我們也有發表文章，是經常性的。這樣對我們對新的移民法的理解，對客戶的服務和準備上，有一個非常好的基礎。 問：你可不可以講一下9/11以後，就是收緊的這個移民政策，那好像現在如果申請綠卡，或者是移民的申請，大概現在時間會拖長多少？ 張：申請綠卡有各種各樣不同的原因，政治庇護成功的話，你可以申請綠卡，有不同的規定的。比如說，法官批給你是因爲你在中國受到一胎化政策的影響，批你的綠卡，這個綠卡要等很久的時間。它首先要等每年一千個的名額，每年只能批一千個，因爲政治庇護一胎化原因批准的政治庇護。所以，現在已經是有差不多一、兩萬人排隊在那邊，等到他說你排到了就要好幾年。等你排到以後你要申請綠卡，又是一個排期，又要受另外一個名額的限制。這樣的話，政治庇護的綠卡申請，以前---，最早五、六、七、八年之前可能三年、四年都可以了，現在要拖到九年到十年。平時的綠卡申請也拖久了。爲什麽拖久了？因爲加上了9/11以後的一個背景調查。把本來比如說，舉個例子吧，夫妻之間，或者是太太、或者是先生是美國公民，申請另外一方。以前在紐約差不多一年左右就可以完成這個程式，因爲現在加進了你的背景調查，至少在兩年以上，有的可能拖到三、四年，因爲背景調查沒有一個時間規定。所有其他的綠卡的移民至少延後了一至兩年。 問：那這樣的話對你的工作或者是生意會有影響嗎？ 張：這個對案件有好的影響，也有壞的影響。好的影響是，你可以幫客人提供更多的服務。一個服務就是到移民局去催。有很多案件申請了以後，它拖是沒有原因的。所以我們之所以很多地方很成功就是因爲我們一直幫他們催，一直提醒移民局，你的案子審得怎麽樣。他們不會馬上給你回音，但催幾次以後，他們會給你回音。壞的方面是對客戶不好，因爲客人申請一般都是很著急，因爲移民綠卡的申請是一個綜合性的工程。綠卡的批和不批對申請人的其他的社會關係産生很大的影響。對他、申請人的父母，對他今後工作的安排，對申請人的每天的生活都有很大的影響。所以，等於把不落實放在他們的肩膀上，會帶來很大的困難。因爲我是新移民過來的，我知道，因爲你身份申請的不落實，對你今後的很多安排會有很多confusion在裏面，很多的壓力的。你長遠的安排也不能做，所以這樣的話對他們是非常不好的。現在政府一直在說，加錢給移民局，讓他們加快這個進程。我是聽說最近新的申請反而會比一、兩年之前的申請會快。原因是政府給了很多的預算給移民局，讓他們加快。我沒有確定的消息。但聽他們說，你現在新的申請可能反而比舊的會快。 問：你可以講一下，你處理過那麽多案子，有什麽比較難忘的經驗？ 張：難忘的經驗非常多，因爲我是一個性情中人。政治庇護的案件，一個是你提供專業的法律服務，這是一個方面。但是，律師是唯一的一個，除了法官、檢察官、翻譯官和家庭所有人之外的，一個全程可以看清這個申請人的內心和他外在的所有東西。你會看到他的感情的變化，你會看到他的困擾在什麽地方， 你會看到他的擔心在什麽地方，你會看到他的喜怒哀樂在什麽地方。所以，有幾個政治庇護的案子---，每一個案子對我的牽動都是很大。通常客人都是希望自己能通過政治庇護得到身份，我也一樣。除了因爲我是律師之外，作爲我從中國來的中國人的背景，從內心來講，在符合美國的法律情況下，我有一種情感是傾向他們的。第一是法律，就是你一定要遵照美國的法律做。我是個律師，我有職業道德，肯定沒有問題，這是第一、最高的原則。第二的話，我是一個性情中人，加上我的背景，我對中國來的客人，不管是中國來的，臺灣來的，香港來的，其他各個地方來的，我覺得我有一種義務，我有一種責任要幫到他們。原因是我懂他們的文化，因爲我是這個文化的一部分。第二的話，我知道他們的各種各樣的confusion，他們的困難，他們的喜怒哀樂，我是知道的，他們的親屬不會知道。因爲你上法庭的時候我在旁邊，我幫他一起在準備，他所有的東西都會跟你說。很多人自己不一定意識到他的感情有多麽的豐富，我是跟著一起走的。所以每個案子批的話我是從內心覺得非常開心的。律師提供服務要收費用，在那一點上費用對我來說不是很重要的，我會跟著走。假如案件輸掉的話，我也是爲他很擔心，原因是我知道贏和輸對客人的影響有多大，對他的家人影響多大。比如說，有一個案子，我幫一個中國廣東汕頭籍的一個女子，當時是五十來歲，她偷渡入美國，在Newark Airport抓住以後，關在新澤西的Elizabeth Detention Center。我初出去幫她做擔保，通常居留所是不放的。這個女士的經歷很悲慘。她受到一胎化的迫害，原因是她有個男朋友，男朋友的太太是村裏面計劃生育委員會的一個主任，她跟她的先生有感情了，懷孕了。那麽，他們就通過很多的壓力，說一定要她去流産，不流産的話對她會有很嚴重的事情發生，因爲她沒有結婚嘛。這樣的話，她就跑掉了。一跑跑了八、九年，到了中國廣東省另外一個地方， 生了孩子以後一個人把他養大，經歷了非常多的辛苦。但是她沒有文件來證明。沒有文件證明的話理論上講，你只要口頭上提供的證詞是一致的，是可行的；法官採納你了，也是可以給你機會的。但是通常這樣是比較困難的。那個案子我打了十個月就把它打好了。後來我是有一點很感動，法官一開始的時候對這個案子不是很相信，不是覺得會批你的。最後批了，他說是這樣的，移民局你要上訴的話，我就讓你上訴不會成功，因爲這會變成一個新的案例。以前這樣的案子，沒有任何的文件，然後因爲這樣的女朋友，因爲懷孕，沒有這樣判例的，我要他們立一個新的判例出來。最後他答應了，我就是很感動。我給她說，這個我都沒想到會到這個地步。儘管我是努力了，我也不一定想到會到這個地步。最後政府上訴了，上訴還是輸了。所以，這個案例就在那兒定下來了，就變成一個新的案例。法官說是變成一個新的案例。所以，這個女士現在在美國。類似這樣的案子把我的精力，把我的感情、很多東西都是全部投進去了。對我本身的波動也是很大，從這個角度講，我看到了很多合法非法的移民的內心世界的很多東西。這是一個非常---，作爲我律師來講，我做這個領域是很多其他不做這方面的律師可能經歷不到的。 問：你怎麽看這個非法移民呢？好像很多美國人覺得這是一個問題，一個壞處。那作爲一個中國人，而且你處理過那麽多的案件，你怎麽看這個問題呢？ 張：我覺得，作爲一個律師來講，作爲一個美國公民來講，美國的法律都要尊重的，我要尊重，來的人都要尊重，不應該偷渡來，應該循合法的途徑過來。但反過來，因爲我是律師，我又要非常專業地幫我的客人爭取他們的權益。 儘管你非法來了，你違反法律來了，你還是有很多的權益，這就是美國這個國家好的地方。所以，我就是根據這個方面，我要提供我最好的幫助。那麽從這個角度，兩點的基礎上來講，我覺得其他國家的非法移民到這裏來，我對他們瞭解不多，因爲我的客戶主要是中國人。我覺得第一，美國是一個移民的國家。新的移民過來對美國國家是好的，是促進的。沒有移民的話就沒有美國國家這個歷史。美國至今能這麽發達就是各個國家的移民，不管你是非法的還是偷渡過來的，來了以後的風險所造成的。那麽中國的非法移民，我覺得，對美國這個國家是有促進的。我不主張他們違反法律，我不喜歡他們偷渡進來，避開這樣很多的---，非法地操作到了美國。我談的是他們進來以後，這個之前不是我們能夠評論的領域，我應該照法律去做。但這之後的話，我覺得，他們來了以後，作爲我們中國人，不管是臺灣來的，中國大陸來的，香港來的，包括中國人從其他地方來的，都是很勤奮，中國人一個是很勤奮做工。第二的話，給社會帶來的問題相對比較少。你可以從對子女的教育，對大家工作的情況可以看得出來，都是很重視子女的教育，做工都是很勤力。也有很多人做了不少壞的事情，但畢竟是很少數的。舉一個例子吧，福州人在這邊也就十幾年的歷史。你看福州人提供這麽多的外賣餐館和Buffet的餐館，不光在紐約，全美各地的，你很少能找到哪個地方沒有中國外賣餐館和Buffet餐館的。對美國的幫助有多大。不光把文化帶過來，也帶給他們方便，帶給他們服務。這個service不是其他所有人能做到的。我只是舉這個例子而已。 它generate很多經濟利益出來後，他會給他的子女去讀書，他會要人去就業。那麽做工的人又可以幫到自己的家人，然後又可以幫到政府的稅收。多麽好的一個事情。我覺得非法移民，特別是中國的非法移民，對美國這個國家絕對是有促進的，沒有任何對美國不好的地方。 問：你可以回想一下9/11發生那一天你在做什麽？ 張：9/11發生的時候對每個人來說都是一個很不同的一個時刻。那天我不在美國，我在中國，我在上海，我在我媽媽家裏面。我回程飛機票訂的是9月12日回美國。當時我在我媽媽家和我同學一起吃飯，吃飯的時候在看電視，電視裏面突然---，我弟弟他們說，怎麽有兩架飛機好像撞世界貿易大廈，兩個姐妹大廈。我們都沒注意，我也沒注意，覺得這可能在放電影。突然一看，不對，我說這個電影怎麽是鳳凰電視臺。鳳凰台是香港過去的，跟中國大陸的中央電視臺和上海電視臺不一樣。我覺得鳳凰電視臺的新聞台不會放電影吧。所以就過去看，一看的話一下就緊張起來了，又看到第二架飛機撞了。那個時候我第一件事情就是拿起電話，打電話找我太太。因爲她辦公的地方是在Broadway和Vesey Street，和姊妹大廈差一個block。因爲姊妹大廈在Church Street，過了就是Broadway。Vesey正好是姊妹大廈開始的地方。我太太在那個大樓裏面，她是當時在幫一家銀行做工作。我打電話找她，我說，怎麽回事？她說，很緊張。我聽到他們背景裏都在叫。我說我打電話到我的辦公室，我已經打不通，能不能你趕緊打個電話，叫他們趕快回去。辦公室裏有人的話叫他們趕緊走。第一，先回去。第二的話，我打電話就是make sure。我問她說，你打到沒有？她說，打到了，已經趕緊回去了。 等人走了我就放心了，不要有人在這個地方，因爲離那個地方很近。第二我說，你趕緊走啊。她說，現在不能走，很亂。我在電話上hold了四十分鐘。那個時候的心情，可能我跟他們回來以後說，要比在紐約辦公室或者在這兒的人更緊張，因爲人不在美國又很著急，那樣的心情是非常非常之著急。然後我又打電話找我的女兒，找不到，因爲她在Bronx Science High School讀書。那麽後來一直一天找不到。我太太最後說找到她，到同學家裏去住了。因爲辦公室裏的人都走了。我就放心了。然後我太太在裏面跟我叫了一句，她說，Oh，My God！It’s gone. It’s gone. 我說，什麽is gone？她說，兩幢大樓沒有了。我說，我在電視裏面還看到啊，在冒煙。她說，It’s gone. It’s collapsed. 所以，那時候的心情是緊張得不得了。從那開始，我一直電話不斷地在追。我覺得當時那個心情，因爲跟親身在這個9/11姊妹大廈周圍，包括我這個辦公室附近的不一樣。但是也是另外一種非常焦急的心情，因爲我人在上海，我的心完全more than 100%在這個地方，在擔心我的辦公室的員工的安全，擔心我太太，擔心我女兒的情況。所以一直在聯繫，跟航空公司說什麽時候能回去。那麽一直不能回來，一直到了17號，第一班飛機可以從中國飛過來了，就飛到了舊金山。舊金山出來的時候，我看到national guard就是全副武裝的，要比我們乘客還要多。所以一下回到辦公室，回到辦公室整個社區都變了。從Broadway，Canal Street開始，都是有national guard。全部封起來了，不能進入。除了工作人員可以進來，其他人都不能進來。好像一個打仗的戰區一樣，好像是在看電影一樣。整個環境都變了，完全一個---，好像是第二次世界大戰電影裏看到的那種景象。回到辦公室的話，一股硝煙彌漫的怪味道。馬路上沒有人了， 整個Broadway我從來沒有看到好像是一個空的廣場，沒有汽車能進來，全部是national guard國民兵在那兒駐防。你進來要看你的ID，不然的話不可以回到辦公室。所以回來以後開始大概是一個星期還是兩個星期不能上班。這個地方沒有開門，整個資料檔案全部斷掉了。回來之後的半年一直經歷了很大很大的變化。整個Chinatown不同了，整個Broadway不同了，整個New York City不同了。 [第二盤磁帶] 問：張律師，請你繼續講9/11發生的事情。 張：9/11發生了以後，我從上海回來了以後，第一的事情就是到辦公室。但是不能給我進來，因爲整個國民兵把Canal街開始全部都封起來了。這樣一封的話，你進來要查你的identification。開始的一兩個星期都不能給你進來。等他們開放以後我就進來，進來我看到整個形象都不同了。當時不知怎麽說，也不知道前景會是怎麽樣。因爲整個Chinatown走路很舒服，因爲你走路的話沒有交通。很多的飯店都關門，很多的生意都關門。覺得就是整個我們的客人不能來了，生意也沒有了。不光我們沒有生意，整個唐人街等於是一個ghost town，很多飯店也關門。你去吃午飯的話，可能有的飯店就是一桌、兩桌。很久的時間整個商業的環境都變了。我們的律師事務所的環境也變了。從那個時候開始，移民的生意一落千丈，整個都變化了。慢慢慢慢以後可能會起來，所以我們經歷了很艱難的一個調整的時期。這就是爲什麽我們更注意把法律服務提供給這些客人。可以有一點filing，移民的跟進上面。儘量提供各種各樣---，他們所不清楚的方面我們給他們提供。 所以9/11的時候，那個moment大概這輩子不會忘記，我是作爲一個人不在美國，但是我的家人，我的辦公室離9/11兩幢大樓那麽近，我想那個經歷也是非常unique，一輩子不會忘記的。我的shock和我感受到的那種無能爲力的這種感覺，我想大概不下於在這個領域裏面親身看到這個大樓倒下來的那些人的經歷，只是從不同的角度而已。 問：你是從文革過來的，你在文革時候有受過一些磨難嗎？你覺得那些磨難跟9/11比，給你的impact有什麽不一樣嗎？ 張：文革的時候我非常小，所以我沒有太多的可以講。但是我們的家庭是受到了很大的衝擊。我的爸爸被抓過去很多次，他的身體因爲文化大革命給一下子搞壞，因爲他當時是一個稅務局的官員。文化大革命之前的十個月，他被派到一個新的區去整理那兒的稅務的情況，然後就是文化大革命了。上海市市長派過去了，所以把他鬥得差一點生命沒有了，差一點送到黑龍江。當時這一段的經歷我非常小，我只是十一、二歲。但是，我覺得從那個經歷我一下長大成人了。從家裏的衝擊，因爲你想，你不知道什麽時候，半夜裏突然有人來敲門，敲得那麽響。以前非常平靜的生活一下會覺得非常的不一樣。敲門以後你不知道他是來抓你的父親，還是來抄你的家，還是怎麽樣。那個擔心受怕的感覺，從另外一種程度來講，是在我這生當中，是一個比較難忘的一個經歷。我也可能從這個當中就成熟起來了。但是文化大革命對我本身沒有很大的傷害或者是怎麽樣。我是經歷這個當中，我覺得是經歷文化大革命是一種非常不同的經歷。這個經歷對我今後的成長，給了我很多的內在的東西。可以對什麽問題的考慮都是有一個不同的想法， 或者說人比較更sophisticated，比較複雜一點，或者比較成熟一點。 問：9/11發生以後，這個恐怖襲擊，您對美國這個國家的印象會不會有改變呢，因爲這個事情？ 張：我對美國國家的印象有改變，這個改變從兩個方面來看。第一，9/11事件發生了以後，我突然發現美國人的愛國程度要比以前我所發現的要深層得多，廣泛得多，而且是普遍得多。美國人的愛國，某種程度上來講，我的感覺，根據我以前在中國的經驗來講，要超過中國人在中國的愛國的情緒，這麽普遍。非常之愛國，非常之團結。不管你是什麽政黨的，不管你是什麽社會集團的，不管你是什麽community的，我覺得大家像一個人一樣。我也覺得我更成爲這個國家的一部分了。大家非常地愛國，非常地團結。這個國家的認同的概念突然要比以前多很多。假如沒有9/11的話，可能我要花一輩子的時間對美國人的認同都不會像現在認同的這麽好。第二個改變，我就覺得它的政策趨向於保守。趨向於保守的話，好的一部分就是貢獻給了愛國的這一點，就是大家的愛國情緒是趨向保守的一部分，或者是趨向保守是愛國情緒的一部分。但是我覺得某種程度上來講，它的政策的改變，是有一點關門是關得太多一點。跟美國立國的精神開始有一點差別。這個對於我來說也是另外一點很深刻的印象。因爲我對美國國家的瞭解和對美國的喜歡是基於我以前學習的很多的東西，和基於我經歷9/11之前的十幾年在美國的經歷所積累起來的。這個還是沒有改變。我覺得這個國家好，是一個移民的國家。這個國家好是非常地民主。這個國家好是因爲有一個完整的法律，是可以保護各種各樣的人，有自由發表言論，自由做任何事情的權利，只要你不違反法律。這樣一個制度在世界其他地方，至少我待過的地方，在中國中國的法律沒有美國這麽健全，自由化的程度沒有美國這麽廣泛。 香港我待過的時候，當時英國還沒有把香港回歸給中國，也是一個很不同的一個地方。是中國人管理中國人，非常好的一個地方。我的感覺就是，新加坡，香港都是管理非常好的地方；但它自由的程度自然不能和美國比。所以，這是我對美國非常喜歡的一點。但是因爲9/11變化以後，除了我對美國這個國家認同更增加了以後，同時我就感到有一點擔心。我以前認識的這個價值，裏面的一部分給拿走了。我覺得就是美國政治的改變的一部分讓我感覺我又回到了中國，回到了中國的文化大革命。儘管是沒有這麽廣泛，沒有這麽深入，但是很多時間會remind me我小時候的經歷，在中國的經歷，政府的干預，各方面的情況。實際上，某種程度上來講，要比中國政府對老百姓的干預更全面、更強大。這是我比較擔心的地方。 問：你在不同的地方住過，在大陸，跟香港，跟美國，那哪一個地方你覺得是你的家，而且你覺得你是那個國家的人？ 張：紐約。這是肯定的。這個感覺七、八年前還沒有這麽強烈。七、八年開始慢慢慢慢越來越強烈。什麽原因呢？因爲是我每次回家我都感覺我是作客，因爲我的社區沒有了。因爲中國發展很快，上海我長大的地方，我爸爸媽媽搬的地方，慢慢都是拆遷拆遷，環境非常好了。但他們的環境對我來說是完全陌生的。我的同學沒有了，我的朋友沒有了，我的community沒有了。那一段的發展我沒有跟上。那我回去的話我覺得我就是作客，沒有做其他事情，完全是作客的感覺。我每次去的時候很想去，去了以後就很想快點回來。回到紐約的話，我就覺得我的家在這裏。紐約是我的家，不是美國的其他地方。香港呢，我也是很喜歡，北京我也很喜歡， 這是另外兩個城市我待得比較久的，再包括緬因吧，緬因的Portland。但是這幾個地方都沒有給我一個家的感覺。家第一是紐約，第二是上海，上海已經是我的一個作客的地方。這是完完全全的感覺。 問：你可以講一下你的家庭嗎？你有幾個小孩？你對他們的未來有什麽期望嗎？ 張：我有一個小孩。她是1997年四月份到美國來的，她在這兒成長得非常不錯。這也是我對美國這個制度非常喜歡的一個部分。我覺得美國的制度好。她來的時候不講英文，我們給了她很多的時間。這也就是我爲什麽要開自己的律師事務所，我可以花時間在她身上。我覺得工作某種程度上不如教育小孩那麽重要。假如我是業務很成功了，小孩的教育很不好了，或者她出了什麽事情的話，我覺得我會很失敗的。所以，她非常成功，到目前爲止。97年四月份來的時候，英文一點也不講，直接進入美國的一個neighborhood初中。半年以後參加考試就考到Bronx Science High School。那麽再過半年畢業以後就去讀了。讀了以後她在那兒的成績非常好。我們鼓勵她參加她學校的辯論隊，她在辯論隊是A Team。大概她申請大學的時候有六個大學錄取她，Chicago University, Economics Department，然後有那個Brown University，Columbia University，Cornel University，Dartmouth College，然後MIT。最後她選擇了MIT。現在在那兒已經是兩年級的學生。她選擇了那兒的交換學生的計劃，所以今年十月份她要到Cambridge，去過一年交換學生的生活。過兩年她就要畢業了。她也是，她很喜歡美國。上海慢慢慢慢也變成她一個作客的地方了。前幾天我和她討論，我說，你今年夏天要到臺灣去，要到香港，因爲她想瞭解臺灣的社會，所以準備去三個月，在香港會停一下。我說， 你要不要到上海去看一下爺爺奶奶？年齡比較大了。她說，不想去。我說，你爲什麽不想去呢？她說，I have no freedom. 我在那兒沒有自由。他們把我當小孩，完全要跟著他們，都喜歡我。她去的感覺就是跟我以前的感覺一樣。慢慢慢慢紐約就是她的家了。她讀大學以後，和讀高中的時候，我本來要搬家搬到Queens，搬到其他地方。她不同意。她說，我來美國的時候就住在78街York Avenue這裏。這是我的community。你搬的話，我不和你一起住。所以到現在爲止我還沒搬就是這個原因。你可以看出，我覺得美國這個國家對新來的人非常好。我一直跟她講，我說，你對這個社會要感謝。不能光是拿取，就和我一樣，我能對社區做多少，我現在都會做的。包括對我的業務當中，我做很多pro bono的，客人我不是完全看錢的，我幫他們的。我說，你也是。你是一胎化，計劃生育的産物，小皇帝，比較自私。到美國的話，你不能說光從美國這兒拿，你不付出。這個是你一輩子的失敗。所以，她初中的時候，她就出去做那種no-for-profit。有一年夏天她到香港做Human Rights，全世界Human Rights society，她是幫他們落實的團體，然後到醫院裏面去做。我都鼓勵她去，她不去我都逼著她去。所以，你一定要反饋給社會。不是說，因爲光是你聰明你就可以這樣，這個社會給了你很多。你要看到它好的地方，不要吸收不好的地方，而且把你很多東西反回去。所以，so far我們覺得我們的家在這邊，但是又不能全部把我們在中國的聯繫，自然的聯繫給卡斷，那也卡不斷。 問：你希望她以後做什麽？ 張：我希望她以後她喜歡做什麽就做什麽，不要走到歪路上面去。美國這個國家的好處是你怎麽想的話，你的dream你可以去實現。我覺得她很小的時候她也有一個dream。 我們這個年齡跟她來講肯定是有區別的。我們怎麽再想的話，不能想得和她一樣，因爲我們年齡，是另外一個generation。所以希望不要對她干擾太多，但是也要給她適當的指導。她走什麽路，喜歡的話，我都沒有問題，我都會支援她。 問：你現在多少歲？ 張：我是1955年生的，1955年6月26日，我現在49歲。 問：很年輕。 張：我覺得是這樣，這個年齡是個very exciting age。我儘量在我退休之前能多做一點事情，爲社區，爲其他人，我都會做。 問：你來美國這麽久，你對紐約的華人社區有什麽感覺呢？你覺得有什麽需要改善的地方嗎？ 張：華人社區在我來美國以後發展非常之快。我非常開心地看到，今天的華人社區和我來美國時那個時候的華人社區不一樣。我當時來的話覺得廣東話的團體力量非常之大。但是現在你可以很簡單地看到，除了廣東話之外，國語已經是一個可能比廣東話更大的團體，除了是福建人、福州人的移民之外，從中國大陸各地來的移民都是很多，上海的，北京的。我們法拉盛的辦公室接觸更多的是講國語的，除了臺灣講國語的以外，中國大陸各地來的講國語的人。現在整個華人的力量強了。人數絕對是增加得很厲害。但是有一點還是這樣，就是在大面積參政的同時不是很團結。假如我們華人能更團結一點，不管你是從中國來的，香港來的，臺灣來的，廣東來的，福建來的，上海來的，溫州來的，大家能團結起來，把我們社區裏面的人送到City Council， 送到紐約州的參議院、衆議院的競選，送到學區委員的競選，送到各個地方去，把聲音講出來的話。一個，對我們華人社會的發展會非常好。唐人街是一個比較獨特的團體。我覺得應該，唐人街這個團體應該和不同背景的中國人的團體，把它結合起來，因爲你從臺灣、中國大陸、香港、其他地方來的很多人，像我們的背景，出來之前的背景都已經很不錯了。應該把這部分人完全地融入到唐人街去，把唐人街的傳統的，靠傳統移民來推動，打破局面，會有一個非常好的發展。我現在已經看到，中華公所、華人聯合會，各種各樣的已經在慢慢慢慢在合作了，已經在朝好的方向發展，但是還不夠快。我覺得應該更快地把這個團體給推上去，因爲在紐約的唐人街是美國文化的一部分。它不是中國文化的一部分。紐約的唐人街是紐約市的非常重要的一部分。假如沒有紐約的唐人街，整個紐約的變化可能要比姊妹大廈沒有的變化會更大，整個紐約會不一樣。所以，這是我們華人在紐約的一個非常驕傲的地方，但是發展還是不夠。應該更團結，把各種背景的人都團結起來，放到一個團體裏面，互相不要吵，能做多少，大家就做多少，這樣的話會力量很大。在美國這樣的國家，有好的地方它會注意你的。你只要聲音發出來它會注意你的，但是現在我們的聲音太分散，但進步已經很大。 問：你對你以後的人生有什麽規劃呢？ 張：以後人生的規劃是這樣，我剛來美國的時候，我的原則是，我儘量避開唐人街，儘量避開Chinatown。所以，我住在77街，我不住在中國人的社區。 我以後的人生變化是，兩點肯定是越來越明顯。第一，我會盡我的能力，在發展我的律師事務的本身，爲社區做更多的服務。我能做的我都會做。第二，我會盡我的能力，把我以前在中國學到的背景和知識，和把我在美國學到的背景和知識一起會用出來，爲中國和美國的更多的交流做出貢獻。這個方面我能做更多。這兩個方面我都能做更多。這兩個方面我已經都開始做了。我想這兩個方面是我能在退休之前，或者退休之後，能做出的很多事情。爲社區做事，爲中國和美國之間的交流做事，憑我對雙方的瞭解。這是我要做的。 問：你預見的中國的未來是怎麽樣的？跟美國的這個互動？ 張：中國的未來，中美關係的互動，我是這樣感覺的，總的會好的。但當中會有很大的問題不斷，原因是臺灣問題。這個不是我們關心的。我們作爲中國人來講，不管從臺灣來的，中國的什麽地方來的，我都沒有任何的這個上面的想法。我女兒要到臺灣去，我很鼓勵她的。我都想到臺灣去，但是我沒有時間。我覺得中國和美國的關係會好的理由是，除了臺灣問題，已經不是主要問題了。中國和美國沒有衝突的。除了我當時到美國來之前的一個中國人的話，我從我的周圍圈子裏面，我的朋友裏面，沒有人不喜歡美國的。當時我們都覺得，我是搞學術的。假如要是不喜歡的話，可能我們更不喜歡日本和蘇聯，或者現在的俄國。對美國沒有什麽問題的，所以我覺得這雙方面的交流會越來越多，越來越好。問題會不斷，但是經濟交流和其他的話，中國和美國會變成世界上最好的夥伴，甚至會代替美國和日本這樣的友好夥伴的關係。我覺得臺灣問題解決以後，應該是往這個方向走的。 問：你有什麽建議要給政府當局或者是華人社區，覺得它可以把這個社區，一些9/11以後的問題可以處理得更好？ 張：社區來講，9/11以後的問題可以處理得更好。不管什麽團體，現在要抛棄偏見，大家儘量要溝通。現在不管是哪個團體，你以前的歷史怎麽樣。中國的團體有個習慣，就是大家小圈子比較多。我覺得應該把那個圈子，不管是廣東人的，不管你中國大陸來的，臺灣來的，不管你什麽地方來的，儘量打破這個圈子，把聲音發出去。不要一個團體聲音發出來了，另外一個團體發另外的聲音。在兩個團體有不同聲音的時候，應該溝通，溝通以後雙方都應該謙讓。一個聲音發出去，這樣會對我們比較好。我在退休之前之後我都會儘量做這方面的事的。我給星島日報寫了很多文章，我並沒有廣東的背景。對於香港，我只是有在那裏工作幾年的背景，也並不是因爲我是老華僑，我是臺山人，完全是撇開那一點來講的。我希望各種各樣的人都往這個方向走，能做貢獻，多做貢獻。抛開很多的偏見，還是很有希望的。假如像我們這樣背景的人能鼓勵其他人，包括我們自己，參與到社區裏面去的話，我想一定會有很多比較積極的聲音發出來。重要的是，具體的事情要做出來。中美關係也是這樣，我也會把我的知識各方面貢獻出來，兩方面都會的。 問：謝謝你今天的時間。 張：謝謝。 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Zhong Yue Zhang 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview