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Title
A name given to the resource
Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Jack Chin
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Teri Chan
Chinatown Interview: Date
0000-00-00
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
shop owner
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
We can begin. Today is January 7, 2004. My name is Teri Chan. I’m
at the New Crown Inc., which is located at 57-59 Mott Street in
Chinatown, New York. Please tell us your Chinese name and English
name.</p>
<p>CHIN:
My Chinese name is Chin Won Kun. My English name is Jack Chin.</p>
<p>Q:
When were you born, and where?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I was born in China, in 1939.</p>
<p>Q:
Where in China?</p>
<p>CHIN:
In Guangdong, Taishan.</p>
<p>Q:
Is Taishan a city or a village?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It’s a city. The village is Tai Chun.</p>
<p>Q:
Were you born in the city or in the countryside?</p>
<p>CHIN:
In the countryside.</p>
<p>Q:
When did you come to America?</p>
<p>CHIN:
1954.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, about how old were you?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>CHIN:
12 years old.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you come to America?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Well, it’s like this, my father applied for us to go to America
and then go to Canada.</p>
<p>Q:
You came to America first. Where in America?</p>
<p>CHIN:
The first place I came to in America was San Francisco.</p>
<p>Q:
How long did you live in San Francisco?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I just went through immigration there.</p>
<p>Q:
And then where did you go in Canada?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Then we went to Cornwall, Ontario. And then we went to Montreal, and
at that time I was in high school.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you come over as a family, or by yourself?</p>
<p>CHIN:
When I came, it was with my mother and my cousin.</p>
<p>Q:
With your mother and your cousin?</p>
<p>CHIN:
No, my mother came over later.</p>
<p>Q:
It was you and your—</p>
<p>
CHIN:
Cousin.</p>
<p>Q:
Cousin. Why was it just you and your cousin? How was your cousin
able to come with you?
</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, my mother was still in the countryside, in Guangzhou.
I could already go through Hong Kong. I had already come over, but
my mother was in Mainland China and at that time, she still hadn’t
been approved (for immigration).</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you first go to Hong Kong even though your mother hadn’t
gone there yet?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, we had to have our application approved in order to go
to Hong Kong. I had already gone to Hong Kong, but she wasn’t
approved to emigrate.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time was it legal to apply to emigrate?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes. But it was harder to get approved in China at that time.</p>
<p>Q:
Back in the countryside, did you have brothers or sisters?</p>
<p>CHIN:
My older brother went to Canada a little earlier. He went to Canada
one or two years before me.</p>
<p>Q:
And you didn’t apply together?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes, we applied together. But the problem was that at that time my
brother was in Hong Kong and I was in Guangzhou.</p>
<p>Q:
What did your father do in Canada?</p>
<p>CHIN:
My father ran a restaurant and a grocery store in Canada.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
When did he go to Canada?</p>
<p>CHIN:
He’d been there a long time. He must have gone there before I
had been born. At that time he had gone over there as a student to
study abroad.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, did he feel that studying abroad was a very common
thing, or was it pretty difficult?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I don’t know about that. I know that he arranged to go to
Canada as an overseas student, that’s what I heard them say
then.</p>
<p>Q:
Then how about you, what were your feelings when you first arrived in
Canada? How did you feel?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time I was still young. I played, I had a good time.</p>
<p>Q:
Had you gone to Canada to learn English?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes, I learned English in Canada.</p>
<p>Q:
How long did you stayed in Canada?</p>
<p>CHIN:
About ten years.</p>
<p>Q:
And then where did you move to next?</p>
<p>CHIN:
To New York.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you move to New York?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
Because my wife’s brothers and sisters were all there. At that
time, it was easier to find jobs here. So we came here.</p>
<p>Q:
Where did you meet your wife?</p>
<p>CHIN:
In Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Q:
So after you came to Canada, you went back to Hong Kong and met your
wife?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes. We were distance relatives, and somebody introduced us.</p>
<p>Q:
Can I ask, at that time, how old were you?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I was about 21 or 22 back then.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, was it considered to be a young age to get married?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Kind of.
</p>
<p>Q:
So what were your feelings back then?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, our generation obeyed our parents’ wishes. We
listened to our parents to start a family. So it was relatively
early.</p>
<p>Q:
It was your father and mother that told you to go back to Hong Kong
and meet this girl.</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
So what differences do you feel existed between your life in Canada
and your life in New York?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>CHIN:
I believe that funding for social programs is better in Canada than
here. But if we’re talking about working or doing business,
then it’s better here, there are more opportunities.</p>
<p>Q:
Why are there more opportunities here?</p>
<p>CHIN:
The population here, there’s more people here. A wealthier
city is going to be busier than other places.</p>
<p>Q:
When you came to New York, where did you live? Was it in Chinatown?</p>
<p>CHIN:
When I first came, I lived in Brooklyn. At 18<sup>th</sup> Avenue
and 52<sup>nd</sup> Street.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, when you lived there, were there any Chinese people?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes, there were a few Chinese people.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you live there?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Because at that time, when we came – my wife’s sister’s
classmate had bought a place there, so we went there to live.</p>
<p>Q:
What was your first job?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was right here as a waiter.</p>
<p>Q:
At which place? At which restaurant?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At the Four Seasons, Blues Hall, at the intersection of 57<sup>th</sup>
Street and Park Avenue.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you go there to work? Was your English already very good
back then?</p>
<p>CHIN:
What should I say - it wasn’t good, but I could make do.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, was it an American restaurant?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was a Chinese restaurant, a restaurant that was owned by a Chinese
and an American.
</p>
<p>Q:
What year was that?</p>
<p>CHIN:
That was around 1970.</p>
<p>Q:
As far as working around the Midtown area goes, how did you feel
about the opportunities there?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, I worked five days a week. On my day off, I went back
to Chinatown, to the Louis Zhong’s Bar, and would be there for
the day. It was a part time job.
</p>
<p>Q:
What was the name?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Louis Zhong.</p>
<p>Q:
Louis Zhong?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
Where was it?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
Now it’s at a corner by China Bank [China Trust Bank].</p>
<p>Q:
On what street?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At the corner of Mulberry and Canal. The second place down.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, how was your work situation in Midtown?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was pretty strict. We started work pretty much around 5pm. For
example, at five o’clock the restaurant started up and we had
to be on standby, we had to be at our positions in the waiters’
stations.</p>
<p>Q:
You only worked afternoons?</p>
<p>CHIN:
No. We had morning shift and we also worked dinners.</p>
<p>Q:
How did they treat you?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Average. Just average. A little better than they do in Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
In what way was it a little better?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, our clients were a little higher class. We were paid
by the hour.. They counted each hour of work. So it was a few
dollars per hour. They counted you by the hours you worked. Not
like Chinatown here where they do it different, they pay monthly. We
did it by the hour.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you get to keep your tips?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes, we got to keep the tips.</p>
<p>
Q:
At that time, how were your tips distributed?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Whatever the customers gave us belonged to us. Whatever they gave to
the captain belonged to the captain. Whatever they gave to the coat
check people belonged to them. It was separate for everyone.</p>
<p>Q:
Is it still the same now?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I don’t think that restaurant is still in business.</p>
<p>Q:
How long did you work there?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I worked there for about nine years.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you ever have any special experiences, strange, unusual or happy
incidents, having worked there that long?</p>
<p>CHIN:
You know, at that time, there were some – we were managed by
those mangers. As waiters, sometimes when you were lucky, you had
some customers who were really good people. And sometimes they
weren’t so good. As far as we were concerned, it averaged out.
At that time, we made 700, 800 dollars a month.</p>
<p>Q:
Was that considered a high salary back then?</p>
<p>CHIN:
That’s how I got by.</p>
<p>Q:
How was it different from your work at the bar?</p>
<p>CHIN:
As far as the bar goes, whenever I was off, I just went to the bar in
Chinatown and worked as a waiter. Sometimes when the owner took a
break or went on vacation, he would have me help him look the place
over, and sometimes—</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
The bar also served food?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was a restaurant. It started as a restaurant. But most of the
people who went there drink alcohol.
</p>
<p>Q:
What kind of people went there to drink?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Chinese people and Italians.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, what was Canal Street like?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, Canal Street wasn’t as busy as now.</p>
<p>Q:
What kind of people were they, and what kind of businesses did they
have, back then?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, half of them were Italians, and then there were
Chinese. Some [inaudible] that’s all I know.</p>
<p>Q:
What were most Chinese people doing for a living back then?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Back then, Chinese people worked in restaurants, or dry clean, and
lots of garment factories. Before, Chinatown had seven—according
to what some people said, back then, Chinatown had more than seven
hundred garment shops. Now, I think there are a hundred, or maybe
seventy or eighty. That’s what I heard people say, I don’t
personally know. I don’t work in that industry.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you change careers and work in this company?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, we had a friend, back when we started at downstairs of
the C.H. Oak Tin Association, our friend had been working in a
restaurant. And then he started
working
at a bank. And I heard people saying that they were going to do
something – that they were going to start up at Bayard
Street, in 1979. So I didn’t
do the restaurant anymore. I started working at Bayard
Street.</p>
<p>Q:
That time, it was the same store, but it was on Bayard Street?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Around nineteen eighty—or it must be in 1990, we moved over
here.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time what did you sell?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At first we just sold those ceramics. We sold those magazines and
newspapers.</p>
<p>Q:
But the main thing was selling ceramics –</p>
<p>CHIN:
No, at that time, we sold a lot of newspapers there. At that time,
there weren’t so many newspaper stands along that street. Back
then, on Grand Street (?), we sold a lot of newspapers. In one day,
we could at least sell eight or nine hundred copies. How much money
was each copy worth? It was a newspaper market.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, how many different newspapers did you sell? Do you
remember?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, there was <i>Sing Tao</i>, United, North America and
News Daily, these ones…</p>
<p>Q:
So in all, there were four newspapers—</p>
<p>CHIN:
And <i>China Press </i>[<i>Qiao Bao</i>]. Back then, there was also
<i>China Press</i>.</p>
<p>Q:
What was the address on Bayard Street?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Number 62-64.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Was it the same name?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Before it was Crown, Inc. After the move, it became New Crown, Inc.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, it wasn’t your own – your friend invited
you—</p>
<p>CHIN:
It’s mine, it’s my own. It’s just that they went
to the restaurant business and then banking. I took it over.</p>
<p>Q:
You bought it ?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yeah, we took it over.</p>
<p>Q:
What made you decide to take it over? You had never done this sort
of business before?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It’s like this. At that time, I had worked as a waiter for
roughly nine years. To do something like this, to come out and make
this sort of change – back then, a lot of people, they all came
to me and talked with me and helped me out. It was enough to support
the family. So what happened was, a lot of people came up to me and
told me to and tried it, it would be alright.</p>
<p>Q:
Was it difficult in the beginning? Did you make money?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was very difficult at first because I hadn’t done this sort
of business before. So that was why my business wasn’t so
ideal then. Slowly, over time, I built it up.</p>
<p>Q:
Did it take a long time?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
After seven or eight months, I got used to it. I had a hard time for
about seven or eight months. Back then, my uncle and friends, they’d
often come over to support me and help me.</p>
<p>Q:
How did they support you? Did they buy your things? How did they
help you?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Some people said to me that if I needed some money, they could invest
some money with me. I took their advice, but I didn’t take the
money. Sometimes, there were some—</p>
<p>Q:
I know that the main customers for the newspapers are Chinese. But
who are the main customers for the ceramics?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Back then, it was mostly Chinese people. Gradually, Westerners began
seeking us out too.</p>
<p>Q:
Back then, did many visitors come to Chinatown? Were there many
Western tourists?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, when I was on Bayard Street,
it flourished at night. So we stayed open until midnight. Back
then, Bayard Street was a
lot more lively than Mott Street. For a while, back when we were
running the business, along pretty much the whole street, there were
lots of restaurants open through the night. Lots of restaurants
stayed open until five o’clock.</p>
<p>Q:
When did all that start to change – when did Bayard
Street stop being so busy?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Not long after we moved over here, Bayard Street
wasn’t as busy at night time.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you move to this location?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
Because back then there were two [people], one relative, one friend,
they always helped me, they helped me to succeed. They helped me
voluntarily at the company. So I asked them, if you’re
interested, I’ll move to this place and we’ll run it
together. I put out the basic goods. They agreed to it. That’s
how we got a place here and started running it.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you find this space for your business?
</p>
<p>CHIN:
A friend introduced me to it.</p>
<p>Q:
I’d like to ask, back then how much was the rent for this
location?</p>
<p>
CHIN: The rent for this space was
over three thousand dollars back then.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you have a lease, or did you just have a verbal agreement about
the rent?</p>
<p>CHIN:
We began at number 59. Over here, the landlord is friendlier. We
get along pretty good – our landlord is pretty good now.</p>
<p>Q:
These two shops are together, right?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes. We were at number 59 before. This one is number 57.</p>
<p>Q:
After you moved over here, what was the main thing you sold? Did you
sell the same things, or you were selling different things?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was pretty much the same things.</p>
<p>Q:
But I see a lot of furniture, when did you start selling other
things?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
I moved over here in ninety-something, ’92, ’93, and I
started selling furniture. So I must have started doing that back in
’92.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you seen any changes in Chinatown since you moved here? During
these dozen or so years, how has it changed?</p>
<p>CHIN:
After moving over here, I think it’s thriving a little more
than it used to. At that time, [my business] was easier to run.</p>
<p>Q:
How was it easier?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Huh?</p>
<p>Q:
How come it was easier back in the past?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Competition. Back then, there wasn’t so much competition. I
guess that’s it, I don’t know. It was just easier back
then.</p>
<p>Q:
How about the last few years? How has business been?</p>
<p>CHIN:
These last few years, well, it’s pretty average.</p>
<p>Q:
Could you please tell us about how 9/11 has impacted your business?
Has it had any influence, and if so, what kind?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Ever since 9/11, it’s influenced [inaudible] things—</p>
<p>Q:
I can’t understand you.</p>
<p>CHIN:
The impact has been really extreme – we’ve fallen off a
bit.</p>
<p>
Q:
And what’s the reason for that?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Huh?</p>
<p>Q:
Why is it that your business has suffered so much?</p>
<p>CHIN:
There are fewer tourists.</p>
<p>Q:
Let me ask you from the beginning. Where were you when 9/11 occurred?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At home.</p>
<p>Q:
And where was that?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I was at my Chinatown apartment.</p>
<p>Q:
Upstairs?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Upstairs.</p>
<p>Q:
How long have you lived in Chinatown?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I’ve lived in Chinatown for 15 years.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you know what had happened?</p>
<p>CHIN:
My son called and told me, something big had happened in New York, at
the World Trade Center. He told me to turn on the TV immediately.
At that time, the first airplane had turned right into it, and we
thought it was an accident. But I turned on the TV, and when I
turned it on, I saw the second airplane flew into it. They had done
it intentionally. And at that time I saw all that.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you come out and watch?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, I came out right here. But at that time, we didn’t
open the doors. But everyone was walking right here. They were from
Wall Street, walking through here. Lots of them. Those people,
their hair, their clothes, there was so much dust. Seeing it at that
time was even more terrifying.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you think that you should also go away?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, how should I put it, my son and daughter were here.
With that in mind - where could we go? I mean, we would just see
what would happen.
</p>
<p>Q:
Where were your son and daughter?</p>
<p>CHIN:
My daughter was in New Jersey. My son was in Los Angels, in
Hollywood.</p>
<p>Q:
And your wife, where was she that day?</p>
<p>CHIN:
We were both at the Chinatown apartment.</p>
<p>Q:
Can you talk about how 9/11 impacted your business?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It had a huge influence.</p>
<p>Q:
Why?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Because there were fewer tourists. People didn’t dare to come
to New York. I asked a lot of friends, relatives, they said that
they were worried about coming to New York. Therefore less visitors.
</p>
<p>
Q:
Then, at that time, your main customers were Chinese or Westerners?</p>
<p>CHIN:
To be honest, for those of us who work here in Chinatown, the
important thing is to have lots of tourists. Lots of New Yorkers are
our customers too. But we mainly sell souvenirs to tourists.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you apply for any economic assistance money?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you know that there was money for economic assistance?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Next door there were some restaurants, some friends, and all of them,
they insisted we had the right to go and get it. So we went to apply
and got it.</p>
<p>Q:
Where did you go to apply?</p>
<p>CHIN:
To the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association (CCBA).</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think they helped you?</p>
<p>CHIN:
They helped out some, they helped.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think that it was difficult to apply?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It wasn’t that difficult. But it also wasn’t easy.</p>
<p>Q:
What about it wasn’t easy? What about it wasn’t
difficult?</p>
<p>CHIN:
There were some questions, they needed to ask a bunch of questions,
and there were those requirements, that stuff. And I had to find the
accountant, get documentation,
need to
prove things. I just had to do some stuff, and there was so much to
do. But speaking frankly, it was necessary. It should be like this
in order to get compensation, it shouldn’t be just slipshod.</p>
<p>Q:
But you think that other people would find it to be pretty difficult?</p>
<p>CHIN:
If you’re legitimate, then it shouldn’t be a big deal.
If you want to do something legitimately, just follow the law and do
it.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think that the economic assistance funds were sufficient?</p>
<p>CHIN:
This question... [Laughs] What should I say? At that time, doing
business was really – considering the impact on Chinatown, it
wasn’t enough. At that time, it wasn’t just my one
place, but rather every single shop, they all suffered after 9/11.</p>
<p>Q:
Besides going to the CCBA to apply, did you also apply anywhere else?</p>
<p>CHIN:
No. As far as that, they told our company, there was someone at the
CCBA, he went to Church Street to get it. That’s the place.
Can get some economic assistance, three days of economic assistance
would be a few thousand dollars. That’s not enough to
compensate for such a long period of business.</p>
<p>Q:
How long was your business weakened?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was impacted for a rather long time.</p>
<p>Q:
So about half a year? One year? Three months?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It still hasn’t stopped. It still isn’t very ideal.</p>
<p>Q:
Then—</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>CHIN:
To speak frankly, it’s only been the last few weeks, I’m
talking about after 9/11 – maybe it’s the good weather –
but these two or three weeks, business has been very good, not bad.
I hope that things continue this way. [Laughs]</p>
<p>Q:
So how was business before 9/11?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Huh?</p>
<p>Q:
So what was Chinatown like before 9/11? How was your business? What
was Chinatown like?</p>
<p>CHIN:
There wasn’t so much pressure, it was more relaxed. You could
easily keep everything stable.</p>
<p>Q:
Since your business has been bad since 9/11, have you thought any way
to improve it? How to fix this situation?</p>
<p>CHIN:
You have to ask yourself, you have to think about what to do.</p>
<p>Q:
So do you have any new plan?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Huh?</p>
<p>Q:
Have you thought of any new way to handle the situation? Could you
speak a little bit, to educate others, how best to get through this
situation?</p>
<p>CHIN:
You just rely on yourself now, how to solve your own difficulties.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you asked friends to help?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Can you speak about some of the problems resulting from 9/11?</p>
<p>CHIN:
There were problems, yes—</p>
<p>Q:
If—</p>
<p>CHIN:
I hope the community could help out Chinatown, improve Chinatown.
The CCBA should do something for the businesses, the neighbors, the
government, do some things – I think that the CCBA hasn’t
done enough for the businesses. Just look at Little Italy, it’s
so small, and yet they’ve done so much to make it prosperous,
they’ve done such a good job. Our CCBA, I’ll put it like
this, they don’t do as much, and they don’t learn from
others how to do things. I wish that whoever it is, acting as
chairman of the CCBA, the CCBA should go study the excellent things
others are doing, and they should improve themselves. The CCBA
should unite and lead. Whatever’s the best way to lead, they
should work together to improve Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
Other than the CCBA, is there any other community group that you wish
would help out?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Of course I wish they would!</p>
<p>Q:
Is there any specific community group you wish would take action?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Whichever community group is fine with me, if they can serve us in
Chinatown, the businesses, help us Chinese-Americans.</p>
<p>Q:
So do you think—</p>
<p>CHIN:
It really doesn’t matter which community group, whichever one.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think that’s because the city government doesn’t
place enough importance on Chinatown?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I feel a little bit that way, a little.</p>
<p>Q:
What do you think that Chinatown can do to make the city and state
governments care about it more?</p>
<p>CHIN:
That all depends on those leaders, those Chinese-Americans, those
thinkers, those in the political world, they’ve got to
communicate, tell them to come help Chinatown to develop and so
forth, and learn how to do these things. Look at Little Italy, and
you see them so prosperous, doing so well. Such a small area, and
yet they’ve done so well. Chinatown is such a large area, yet
we haven’t learned how to do it.</p>
<p>Q:
Then have you ever thought of stepping forward, helping out, acting
as a spokesperson for Chinatown? Acting as a leader?</p>
<p>CHIN:
No, I don’t have that kind of talent.</p>
<p>Q:
Then what kind of individual do you think can be a leader for
Chinatown?</p>
<p>CHIN:
We should look for those individuals whose education and political
backgrounds enable them to communicate, those who are fluent in
English. We don’t use Chinese language outside, we need to
speak both Chinese and English. If you have someone who only speaks
Chinese as our leader, his English isn’t going to be good
enough. It will take time to translate and interact, and that’s
more difficult.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you encouraged your children to return to Chinatown and act as
this sort of leader?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
No.</p>
<p>Q:
Why not?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I haven’t. They were born here. They have their own way of
thinking, different from our way of thinking.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you taken part in any of Chinatown’s activities, community
organizations?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes, we’re involved. We’re a part of this area, because
we’re doing business here. Sometimes they call on me to manage
their financial affairs, that sort of thing.</p>
<p>Q:
Who do you manage for?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I help associations, like the C.H. Oak Tin Association, On Tin Club,
and Shiu Kai Fong, to manage their finances.</p>
<p>Q:
How do you help them manage their finances? How much time do you
spend doing it?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Not much. Sometimes I help them manage their finances, doing things
in Chinatown. Sometimes, if I can help the public, then I help. I
help out, that’s what I do. I use a little of my time.</p>
<p>Q:
How do you help them? You help them to collect [membership] fee? Or
do you help them write check?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Sometimes I help them by signing checks. Sometimes I help them to
deposit money into their checking accounts.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you start helping them, volunteering to do these things?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>CHIN:
I volunteer to do it.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you start?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was a long time ago, when I was working Chinatown, back in
nineteen eighty-something, starting in ’82, ’83, doing
stuff for them.</p>
<p>Q:
Have they ever helped you out in return?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Huh?</p>
<p>Q:
Have they ever turned around and helped you?</p>
<p>CHIN:
The associations belong to everybody. If you’re part of the
group, then you want the group to do well.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you became a member of these associations?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It was those older men that called on me to join. Back then, when I
came back to run the business in Chinatown, I started helping out in
the associations. It was like that.</p>
<p>Q:
You joined the associations because the businesspeople were there?
Or because you’re originally from the same place [in China]?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, I joined the associations because I was doing business
in Chinatown everyone knew each other, everyone was pretty much in
contact with each other, everyone—</p>
<p>Q:
So all the members were people doing business in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
Some of them weren’t. Some of them were. It wasn’t all.</p>
<p>Q:
I hear at that time, the associations was very powerful. Is that
true?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, one of the associations was very powerful, it was the
Chinese Merchant’s Association. And there was the Hip Sing
Association, its powerful was greater.
</p>
<p>Q:
How were they powerful? Why were they so powerful?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Because they protected their members. That was the way that,
sometimes—</p>
<p>Q:
How did they protect their members?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Huh?</p>
<p>Q:
How did they protect their members?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I’m not really clear on that. I know that whenever they had
problems, they would help their members. They wouldn’t oppress
[take advantage of] people. They would handle things fairly. They
would just be fair, right or wrong, they would do it like that.</p>
<p>Q:
How about you, have you ever been taken advantage by anybody while
doing business in Chinatown?</p>
<p>CHIN:
In Chinatown, we haven’t really been taken advantage by anyone.
If you do business in Chinatown, you would have some protection by
joining these associations. At least, everyone works together to
solve problems.</p>
<p>Q:
How are you protected?</p>
<p>
CHIN:
Huh?</p>
<p>Q:
How are you protected?</p>
<p>CHIN:
If there’s some crisis, then everybody talks about how to solve
it.</p>
<p>Q:
I’ve heard that at that time, toughs would come over to get
“lucky envelopes” [money], was that true?</p>
<p>CHIN:
That was true. During Chinese New Years, they would delivery a plate
of lucky fruits, then one person [tough] would take a hundred and
some dollars, several hundred dollars, like that. Some of them paid
protection money, every month they have to pay protection money, the
restaurants. That’s what I hear anyway. I don’t know if
it was true or not.</p>
<p>Q:
You didn’t have to pay?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I’ve never given any [protection money]. But during New Year,
or the fifteenth of August [Moon Festival], they would bring some
mooncakes and I’d give a hundred and some dollars. Or during
New Year, they would bring some lucky fruits and I would give a
hundred and some dollars to them.</p>
<p>Q:
How long has this situation been going on?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Well, this kind of situation started when I began in 1980. At the
beginning, when I had just started, I would give a red envelope of
several hundred dollars to those toughs. Or else they would do
something.</p>
<p>Q:
And when do you stop?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I already stopped doing that many years ago.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Five years ago? Ten years ago?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It’s been at least seven or eight years. Ever since Chinatown
started to clean up that kind of thing, those toughs—</p>
<p>Q:
Was it the government that cleaned them up, or did the police get rid
of them?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I don’t know about that. Whether it was the government or the
police, I’m not really sure. But anyway, during these last
eight or ten years, that type of thing hasn’t been happening.</p>
<p>Q:
So nobody else has tried to bother you?</p>
<p>CHIN:
No. Not in the last few years.</p>
<p>Q:
Is there anything else you’d like to say about Chinatown, or
about yourself?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I wish that the Chinese-American leaders of Chinatown, that is those
leaders in the CCBA, I hope that they will interact with the city
government to get them to help us, to save our Chinatown. Because
our Chinatown is – we have so many businesses here, so many
people here, but we haven’t gotten significant attention, not
like Little Italy, I wish that we—</p>
<p>Q:
Then what plans do you have for the next few years? What plans do
you have for this shop?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I rent this place. As far as that goes, I’m good friends with
the landlord, we’re friends, we get along pretty well. As long
as the landlord lets me rent it, I’ll rent it. (Laughs)</p>
<p>
Q:
Then when would you like to retire?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Huh? (Coughs)</p>
<p>Q:
Then when do you intend to retire?</p>
<p>CHIN:
How should I put it, this is something I haven’t -- when I have
time, there’s still plenty of time to retire, I’m still
working hard. It’s not time yet.</p>
<p>Q:
So what does your wife do?</p>
<p>CHIN:
She helps me out.</p>
<p>Q:
So you—</p>
<p>CHIN:
She comes and goes, she also works. Sometimes she comes and helps
me.
</p>
<p>Q:
How many people work for you?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Three.</p>
<p>Q:
Are you open seven days a week?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
And what are your business hours?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Usually it’s 11 AM to 9 PM.</p>
<p>Q:
That’s a long time to be open each day.</p>
<p>
CHIN:
Ten hours. All of us Chinese here go by the time.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you ever gone back to China or Hong Kong for vacation?</p>
<p>CHIN:
We go back to China two or three times a year to get new goods. It’s
not for vacation. It’s always to go to the factories and get
goods.</p>
<p>Q:
What do your children do?</p>
<p>CHIN:
My daughter is an accountant, a CPA. My son is in business
management.
</p>
<p>Q:
Are you satisfied with their choice of work, with their lives?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It’s OK. We struggle really hard, but my children make good
money. You know Chinese people have a tradition: the parents should
go without eating if necessary and struggle in order to give the
children food and let them study hard. They study hard and gain some
skills, they get a good job, and that’s our—</p>
<p>Q:
Have you thought about asking your children to come back and continue
your business?</p>
<p>CHIN:
We struggle so much, and we are only taking a salaries. But they
have such freedom, they already have really good jobs, they wouldn’t
want to work so hard just to make a living. It would make no sense
for me to tell them to come back and do this kind of work.</p>
<p>Q:
One day when you retire, do you intend to live in Chinatown, or would
you like to move somewhere else?</p>
<p>CHIN:
I also have a home in Queens now. I always come back. This is where
I work, and it’s more convenient. I can go outside and come
back in.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
When would you like to retire and live in Queens?</p>
<p>CHIN:
That’s what my wife wants now.</p>
<p>Q:
Where in Queens?</p>
<p>CHIN:
It’s in Briwood.</p>
<p>Q:
Briwood. Are there many Chinese there? Why did you choose to live
there?</p>
<p>CHIN:
We’ve had that place for a long time already. We bought a
place there back in ’73.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you choose that place?</p>
<p>CHIN:
At that time, that place wasn’t so expensive, it also wasn’t
so cheap, it was a few tens of thousands of dollars. We were able to
afford it.
</p>
<p>Q:
Is there anything else you’d like to say?</p>
<p>CHIN:
Nothing else.</p>
<p>Q:
OK. Thank you very much, Mr. Chin.</p>
<p>[end
of session]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問: 我們可以開始了。Today is January 7, 2004. My name is Teri Chan. I’m at the New Crown Inc., which is located at 57-59 Mott Street in Chinatown, New York. 今天是七月六，no，一月七日2004年。我是陳秋紅。現在我們在新皇冠公司，Mott街，57-59號，紐約市。請跟我們說你的中文名字與英文名字。</p>
<p>陳: 我的中文名字叫陳穩強。我的英文名字就叫Jack Chin。</p>
<p>問: 你是幾時出生, 還有在那裏出生？</p>
<p>陳: 我是在中國出生，就1939年。</p>
<p>問: 中國那裏呢？</p>
<p>陳: 廣東，台山。</p>
<p>問: 台山是城市，還是村子呢？</p>
<p>陳: 是個城市來的，村子是大村。</p>
<p>問: 那你是城市裏出生還是鄉下呢？</p>
<p>陳: 是鄉下出生。</p>
<p>問: 那你是什麽時候來到美國的？</p>
<p>陳: 1954年。</p>
<p>問: 那時候你大概多大啊？</p>
<p>
陳: 12歲。</p>
<p>問: 那你是怎麽來到美國的?</p>
<p>陳: 是，這個呢，我爸爸申請我們，去了美國就去加拿大。</p>
<p>問: 你是先來美國呢? 你先來美國里那呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我先到美國就是在舊金山。</p>
<p>問: 在舊金山住了多久啊？</p>
<p>陳: 我在那是過境。</p>
<p>問: 然後你們去加拿大那裏呢？</p>
<p>陳: 然後我們去Corwall, Ontario。然後就去呢Montreal，讀high school那時候。</p>
<p>問: 你們是一家人一起來的呢還是你一個人自己過來的?</p>
<p>陳: 我來的那時候是跟我mother還有我的cousin來的。</p>
<p>問: 你的媽媽還有你的cousin?</p>
<p>陳: No, 我媽媽後來才來。</p>
<p>問: 是你跟你的--</p>
<p>陳: Cousin。</p>
<p>
問: Cousin。爲什麽只有你跟你的cousin呢？是怎麽可以申請你的cousin一起來的呢？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候我媽媽還在鄉下，在廣州那時候。就，那時候我已經可以過香港了。我已經來到，但是我媽媽在大陸那時候還沒有批准她來。</p>
<p>問: 爲什麼你先去香港而你媽媽沒去香港呢？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候我們又經過申請批准來到香港。然後到了香港未能來移民出國。</p>
<p>問: 那時候是可以合法申請—申請移民出國了？</p>
<p>陳: 是的。但是那時候在中國比較難批准。</p>
<p>問: 你在鄉下還有哥哥，妹妹，或者姐妹嗎？</p>
<p>陳: 我哥哥就早一點去加拿大。早我一年、兩年前, 的時間去加拿大。</p>
<p>問: 你們不是一起申請的嗎？</p>
<p>陳: 是的，是一起申請。但問題因為我哥哥那時候在香港，我那時候還在廣州。</p>
<p>問: 那你爸爸是去加拿大做什麽的呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我爸爸在加拿大做餐館還有做雜貨店。</p>
<p>
問: 他什麽時候去了加拿大呢？</p>
<p>陳: 很久了。應該我還沒出生的時候他就去了加拿大。那時候他是留學時過去讀書的。</p>
<p>問: 那時候，對他來講，留學是不是很平常的事，還是比較困難的？</p>
<p>陳: 這一層呢我就不知道了。我知道他辦留學去加拿大的，那時候我聽他們講。</p>
<p>問: 那你怎麼樣，你剛到加拿大你感覺是怎麽樣？你感覺是怎樣?</p>
<p>陳: 那時候還年輕，我玩哪，還蠻好。</p>
<p>問: 你那時候是不是去加拿大學英文的？</p>
<p>陳: 是的，在加拿大學英文。</p>
<p>問: 那你們留在加拿大留了多久呢？</p>
<p>陳: 十年左右。</p>
<p>問: 接下來你們搬到那裏呢？</p>
<p>陳: 搬到New York。</p>
<p>問: 爲什麽搬到紐約呢？</p>
<p>
陳: 因爲我太太的那些兄弟姐妹都在這裏。那時候在這裏找口飯吃比較容易。後來就來這裏。</p>
<p>問: 你在那裏認識你太太的？</p>
<p>陳: 在香港。</p>
<p>問: 你過來了加拿大之後你才回香港認識你太太？</p>
<p>陳: 是的。有些少親戚關係，有人介紹才認識的。</p>
<p>問: 那時候你是幾歲, 可不可以問一下?</p>
<p>陳: 那時候21、2歲左右。</p>
<p>問: 那你覺得那時候這麽早結---那時候算不算是早結婚呢？</p>
<p>陳: 算的。</p>
<p>問: 那你那時候感覺是這麽樣？</p>
<p>陳: 我們 那一代，那時候，我們多數是聽那些爸爸媽媽的意思。比較聽爸爸媽媽，去成立個家庭。所以比較早。</p>
<p>問: 是你爸爸媽媽叫你回香港認識這女孩?</p>
<p>陳: 是的。</p>
<p>問: 那你感覺，你覺得在加拿大的生活與過來紐約的生活有什麽不同啊？</p>
<p>
陳: 我認爲加拿大的福利投資比這裏好。你如果講做工或做生意就這裏比較好，機會好一點。</p>
<p>問: 爲什麽這裏的機會會好一點？</p>
<p>陳: 這裏的人口，這裏的人口比較多。繁華的城市比較繁忙。</p>
<p>問: 那你跟我說，剛剛來到紐約住在那裏？是不是唐人街？</p>
<p>陳: 剛開始我們來時住在Brooklyn。在那個18大道與52街那里。</p>
<p>問: 那時候你住在有沒那裏有唐人呢？</p>
<p>陳: 都有，很少唐人。</p>
<p>問: 爲什麽住那裏呢？</p>
<p>陳: 因爲那時候，我們來到那時候---我太太的家姐的同學在那買了屋在那裏，所以我們也去那裏住。</p>
<p>問: 那你第一份工作是什麽? </p>
<p>陳: 就在這裏當企檯邊（待應）。</p>
<p>問: 那家餐廳？</p>
<p>陳: 在Four Seasons，Blues Hall。57街與Park Avenue交街。</p>
<p>
問: 爲什麽會到那裏工作呢？你那時英文是不是已經很好了？</p>
<p>陳: 怎麽講，不是好，但是可以應付就是了。可以應付。</p>
<p>問: 那時候是不是鬼佬，Four Seasons是不是一間鬼佬餐館啊？</p>
<p>陳: 是唐人餐廳，鬼佬同唐人合作做的。就是西人同唐人合作做的。</p>
<p>問: 那時候是幾年呢？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候是1970年的時侯。</p>
<p>問: 你在Midtown做事你覺得機會是如何？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候我在那裏做，一個星期做五天。休息時就回唐人街那個Louis鍾那個bar做一天。散工來的。</p>
<p>問: 叫什麽名字?</p>
<p>陳: Louis鍾。</p>
<p>問: Louis鍾。</p>
<p>陳: Yeah.</p>
<p>問: 在那里？</p>
<p>陳: 現在就是靠這個corner這個，中國銀行那里的location。</p>
<p>
問: 在那一條街？</p>
<p>陳: 在Mulberry與Canal交接哪里。第二間。</p>
<p>問: 那時候你在—你在Midtown工作情況是怎麽樣?</p>
<p>陳: 比較嚴格了。我們上班差不多開工的時候五點---譬如五點鐘餐開始時，我們要standby， 就是企檯的station那個position來的。</p>
<p>問: 只有下午班？</p>
<p>陳: 不是。我們都有上早班，晚餐都做。</p>
<p>問: 待遇好不好？</p>
<p>陳: 一般了，就一般了。就是比中國街那些好一點。比中國街那些好一點。</p>
<p>問: 怎麽樣好一點？</p>
<p>陳: 我們那時候做那些就比較客仔比較高級一點。我們那時候出糧都是算一個鐘頭給我們的。就是算鐘，就是個几銀錢一個鐘。就是沽一個人的鐘。不像中國街這樣算是不同的，論一個月的，我們是論一個鐘頭。</p>
<p>問: 那小費是不是自己入袋的？</p>
<p>陳: 是，小費我的自己入袋的。</p>
<p>問: 那時候是怎麽樣分法，你們的小費？</p>
<p>
陳: 在那裏呢，我們就他們客人給我們是我們的，給captain是captain的。給check衣那些是他們的。他們all分開的。</p>
<p>問: 現在是不是一樣的？</p>
<p>陳: 現在那餐館應該沒做了。</p>
<p>問: 那你在那裡做了多久？</p>
<p>陳: 做了九年。</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有遇到什麽特別，怪事啊，或者不平的事啊，或者開心的事，在那裏做了那麽久？</p>
<p>陳: 你知道那時候，怎麽說，有一些---那些---我們由那些經理，waiter那樣的。有時呢，你好運時，你有一些人好的客仔。有時就差點了。我們呢平均來講都過得去。那時候，都有七，八百塊每個月。</p>
<p>問: 那時候那個價錢算高資嗎?</p>
<p>陳: 都過得去那樣。</p>
<p>問: 那你講給我聽，在酒吧做工的時候有什麽不同?</p>
<p>陳: 酒吧呢，就我off呢就回來唐人街酒吧我又是做企檯。有時老細(老闆)休息時或vacation就叫我來幫他望一望有時候就---</p>
<p>
問: 酒吧都有給吃？</p>
<p>陳: 它有餐館。就它是餐館來的。不過多數人去那裏是喝酒的。</p>
<p>問: 是什麽樣的人去那裏喝酒呢?</p>
<p>陳: 唐人還有義大利人。</p>
<p>問: 那時候Canal街是怎麽樣的？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候Canal街就沒有，怎麽講，沒現在這麽忙。</p>
<p>問: 大部分是什麽人，還有什麽生意來的，那時候？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候都是，一半那些義大利人，還有中國人。有些（inaudible）就我所知。</p>
<p>問: 他們大多數，那時候唐人是做什麽生意的？</p>
<p>陳: 唐人那時候就做餐館，做那些衣館，那些車衣的多了。車衣廠了。以前，那時候唐人街都有七，聽那些人一般講，中國街那時的車衣廠都有超過七百間。現在，我想有一百間，七，八十間都不一定。我聽人家講的，我也不知道。我不是這行的。</p>
<p>問: 那你又怎麽轉了行來做這家公司了?</p>
<p>陳: 那時候，因爲我們有一位兄弟，就我以前開始在篤親公所樓下的，我們的兄弟，就他做了個餐館。又去做了銀行來的。那我呢就聽過話他們去做什麽---<br>
就開始在這個Bayard街開始，1979年。就沒做餐館了。就在Bayard街開始做了。</p>
<p>問: 那時候是一樣的店，但是在Bayard街?</p>
<p>陳: 我們啊，我們在8，應---我們在90年就moved過來這裏。</p>
<p>問: 那時候是賣什麽的？</p>
<p>陳: 開始時就賣那些瓷器。就賣那些magazine賣報紙了。</p>
<p>問: 但是主要是賣瓷器啊?</p>
<p>陳: 不是，那時候賣報紙賣很多在那裏。那時候街邊那裏沒那麽多報紙檔，在Grand街那時以前我們在那裏賣很多報紙。一日呢，可以講到至少都八、九百份。多少錢一份啊？一份銷路的報紙。</p>
<p>問: 那時候是賣那幾份報紙，你記不記得?</p>
<p>陳: 那時候有星島啦，聯合啦，北美啦，北美日報，還有哪個新報，這些啦。</p>
<p>問: 總共來講這四張是---</p>
<p>陳: 僑報啦。那時候有僑報啦。</p>
<p>問: 那在Bayard街幾號啊？</p>
<p>陳: 62-64號。</p>
<p>
問: 也是一樣的名字啊？</p>
<p>陳: 以前是皇冠，搬來就是新皇冠。我們搬來是新皇冠。</p>
<p>問: 你是---那時候不是你自己的，是你朋友叫你---</p>
<p>陳: 是我的，是我自己的。就是他們自己去做餐館，去做銀行，我就接過來做。</p>
<p>問: 你買過來做的？</p>
<p>陳: Yeah, 我們接過來做的。</p>
<p>問: 你是怎麽決定接下來做的呢？因爲你沒有做過這一行?</p>
<p>陳: 是這樣的。那時候做企檯已經做了將近九年了，將近九年了哦。這樣出來，這個，這個樣轉的時候---那時候我出來，很多人，都對我都，我那時候在那裏上班來講我都過得去。都能夠維持家庭的。這樣有些人都跟我講，我出來嘗試是可不可以的。</p>
<p>問: 剛開始覺得辛不辛苦啊？有沒有賺錢啊？</p>
<p>陳: 開始那時候就還滿辛苦的。因為自己不是這一行的。這樣生意就不是這麽理想。自己就慢慢慢慢的就做起來。</p>
<p>問: 時間長不長啊？</p>
<p>
陳: 過了七、八個月的時候，我就應付得了。都挨上七、八個月。那時候我們的叔父啊，朋友啊常常來支持，幫助我。</p>
<p>問: 怎麽支持呢？他們是買東西呢，怎麽幫你呢？</p>
<p>陳: 有些人呢有說，如果我需要錢就可以---給些錢我投資。我呢，給我意見他們，但是我都沒拿。有時候啊，有些---</p>
<p>問: 那你賣的陶瓷，我知道報紙主要的客人是中國人。但陶瓷主要賣個什麽人？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候開始就是中國人多。逐漸逐漸呢西方人都有找我們。</p>
<p>問: 那時候多不多遊客來唐人街？西方人遊客多不多？</p>
<p>陳: 我們在Bayard街那時候，晚上就很旺。所以我們那時候開到12點鐘。那時候Bayard 街就比，夜晚來講，就比Mott街旺很多。那時候Bayard街，過了一段時間，我們做的那時候，那全街，差不多全是，很多餐廳開夜。五點鐘---很多餐館都是(開到)五點鐘。</p>
<p>問: 是什麽時候開始改變那些---Bayard街沒這麽忙？</p>
<p>陳: 我們搬過來這裏呢Bayard街不久就---就比較，夜晚就沒這麽忙。</p>
<p>問: 你們爲什麽搬來這個地方呢？</p>
<p>
陳: 因爲那時候有兩個, 有個親戚，有朋友，就時時幫我，在公司義務式幫我來的。所以我問他（們），你如果有興趣就來這裏那個位置一起做。我就基本貨拿出來。他們就允許。這樣他們就拿個舖位來這裏做。</p>
<p>問: 你的舖位是怎麽拿？</p>
<p>陳: 是個朋友介紹。</p>
<p>問: 我想問一下當時的舖位租金是多少？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候舖位的租金都上三千塊來的。</p>
<p>問: 那你是做約的，還是口頭上答應租的?</p>
<p>陳: 那是我們開始是在59號那裏。現在我在這裏屋主就比較friendly。對我們就滿好的---現在我們的屋主滿好。</p>
<p>問: 是不是一起的，這兩家？</p>
<p>陳: 是。以前我們在59號，這裏57。</p>
<p>問: 那你搬過來之後，你是主要是賣什麽？是不是賣同樣的東西，還是已經賣不一樣的東西?</p>
<p>陳: 差不多同樣的東西。</p>
<p>問: 但我現在看到很多家具，你幾時開始做其他的東西？</p>
<p>陳: 我呢就有，搬過來這裏呢，九幾年，九二、三年，就開始做家具。應該是92年左右開始做。</p>
<p>
問: 你搬過來之後呢，你見到唐人街有沒有轉變啊？這十幾年來，是怎麽變化？</p>
<p>陳: 搬過來呢就同以前來講呢，就我們感覺到現在比以前旺一點。就比以前就—那時候比較好做點。</p>
<p>問: 怎麽樣好做點呢？</p>
<p>陳: 啊？</p>
<p>問: 怎麽樣好做點呢，以前？</p>
<p>陳: 競爭，就競爭沒這麽多了，那時候。我想，我不知道。以前就比較好做點。</p>
<p>問: 那這幾年來呢？那近來這幾年生意是怎麽樣？生意情況是怎麽樣？</p>
<p>陳: 這幾年呢就都，怎麽講呢，就不是，就一般這樣了。</p>
<p>問: 可不可以講一下關於911對你的生意的影響? 有沒有，怎麽樣影響呢？</p>
<p>陳: 自從911就都影響到（inaudible）什麼來的—</p>
<p>問: 聽不懂。</p>
<p>陳: 就很厲害的---就很厲害的---就跌得比較小一點。</p>
<p>問: 是怎---是什麽原因呢?</p>
<p>
陳: 啊?</p>
<p>問: 是什麽原因呢你生意跌得這麽厲害？</p>
<p>陳: 少些遊客。</p>
<p>問: 那我重新問過。你911發生的那一天你在那裏？</p>
<p>陳: 在家裏。</p>
<p>問: 家在那裏呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我在我唐人街的apartment來的。</p>
<p>問: 在樓上?</p>
<p>陳: 在樓上。</p>
<p>問: 那你在唐人街住了多久啦?</p>
<p>陳: 在唐人街住了都有15年---15年了。</p>
<p>問: 那你是怎麽知道是---當日的情況是怎麽知道的?</p>
<p>陳: 我兒子就打電話給我的，說New York發生這麽大的事，World Trade Center。他叫我立刻開電視看。那時第一架就轉過來就，怎麽了，—就已經以爲是accident。但我打開TV，我開了TV那時候呢，看到第二架那架飛機就這麽轉過來。那時候就是有意的了。我那時候就睇見什麼了。</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有出來看一下？</p>
<p>
陳: 我出來呢，那時候我就下來這裏。但我們那時候就沒開門---就沒開門了。但是人都在這裡這裏走。在華義街，在這裡走過來。就很多，那人呢，頭髮，衣服，好多那些塵灰啊。看見那時候就比較可怕。</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有想自己也走呢?</p>
<p>陳: 那時候呢，怎麽講呢，我的子女在這裏。這樣就，怎麽說，走去那裏？意思來講，就見步行步了。是這個情形。</p>
<p>問: 那你的子女去了那裏，那時候？</p>
<p>陳: 我的女兒是在New Jersey。我的兒子在洛省, 在Hollywood那裏。</p>
<p>問: 那你太太呢，那一日在那裏？</p>
<p>陳: 我們一起在中國街這個apartment。</p>
<p>問: 你可不可以講一下911對你事業的影響？對這裏生意的影響。</p>
<p>陳: 影響是滿大的。</p>
<p>問: 爲什麽呢？</p>
<p>陳: 少了那些遊客了嘍。沒有這些遊客，人不敢來New York。我都問很多朋友，那些親戚的，他們，就 (講) 來New York比較有些心“歉”(不舒服)。這樣他們就少一些了。</p>
<p>問: 那時候你主要的客人是遊客，中國人，還是西人呢？</p>
<p>
陳: 坦白講呢，中國街我們這一行來講，主要是很多是遊客的。我們都有很多New York的本地客了。但是我們主要是遊客，做那些禮品。</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有申請那些補助金啊，救濟金啊？</p>
<p>陳: 有。</p>
<p>問: 那你是怎麽知道救濟金啊？</p>
<p>陳: 就他們, 隔壁有些餐館啊，朋友啊，個個就，應當我們有權，去拿。我們就去申請拿了。</p>
<p>問: 你是去那裏申請的啊?</p>
<p>陳: 去這個中華公所。</p>
<p>問: 你覺得他們有沒有幫到你呢？</p>
<p>陳: 都幫到些，都幫到。</p>
<p>問: 你覺得申請困不困難啊？難不難啊？</p>
<p>陳: 困難也不是很困難。也不是很容易。</p>
<p>問: 怎麽不容易呢？怎麽不困難呢？</p>
<p>陳: 有些問題呢，他(們)需要(問)很多問題，有些條件啊，又去找那些會計, 拿那些證件，需要證明這些東西。就有做一些，就有做多少事。 <br>
我坦白講，都是應該的。手續上應該是這樣做的，不要這樣隨便。</p>
<p>問: 但你覺得對其他的人比較困難？</p>
<p>陳: 合手續就應當沒什麼，你要做些合手續上，正規去做。</p>
<p>問: 那你覺得你拿的補助夠不夠呢？</p>
<p>陳: 這個問題, (laughs)怎麽講呢？那時做生意真是，生意來講，對唐人街的影響，真是不夠的。那時候不是只有我們一家，家家都是怎麽樣，都是很差，911之後。</p>
<p>問: 那你除了去中華公所申請之外，還有沒有去其它地方申請？</p>
<p>陳: 沒有。這個呢，就我們公司，叫我們公司，中華公所有個人，去那個Church街那裏拿個, 那裏是舖頭。拿一些補助，補助3日，就幾千塊。都不夠，生意這麽久的時間。</p>
<p>問: 生意是淡了多久呢？</p>
<p>陳: 都影響到几長的時間了。</p>
<p>問: 大概半年，一年，三個月?</p>
<p>陳: 都不止。以現在來講，都還沒有，什麽來的，自從911後都不是很理想。</p>
<p>問: 就---</p>
<p>
陳: 這些是---坦白講，就是這些，911之後來講呢，這幾個星期呢就---或者氣候好一點，那兩三個星期呢，生意是滿好，不錯的。但希望這樣繼續下去就好了。(laughs)</p>
<p>問: 那911之前生意是怎麽樣呢？</p>
<p>陳: 啊?</p>
<p>問: 那911之前的唐人街是怎麽樣呢？你的生意是怎麽樣？唐人街的情況是怎麽樣?</p>
<p>陳: 沒那麽逼，比較輕鬆點。都維持，都輕鬆點維持。</p>
<p>問: 那你，那你自從911生意怎麽不好之後，有沒有想怎麽樣來補助呢？補救這個情況呢?</p>
<p>陳: 這些，有你自己對自己，去想這麽做。</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有新的方法呢？</p>
<p>陳: 啊?</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有想過新的方法呢？行得通的，可以講給其他人聽得？教一下其他人的。</p>
<p>陳: 現在就靠自己去，怎麽去解決自己的困難。</p>
<p>問: 你怎麽樣，有沒有叫朋友的幫忙啊？</p>
<p>陳: 有。</p>
<p>
問: 那你有沒有想講有關911的問題呢？</p>
<p>陳: 有麽有---</p>
<p>問: 如果---</p>
<p>陳: 都希望社區如果能夠幫我們唐人街的，點樣整好唐人街。應當他們中華公所做點這些，做些事出來，給些商戶，給些街坊，比些官方，做點事出來，要不然個個，這麽說---我認爲中華公所爲我們的商戶都做不出什麽來的。義大利區這麽小的地方來講，做得那麽旺，做得那麽好。我們中華公所呢，我認爲呢，這麽來講呢，就做不到這麽多，學不到人家的做法。我希望他們能夠，誰做中華公所主席好，就中華公所是怎麽樣去學人家的比較優秀，進步優秀。因爲團結中華公所領導。這麽樣去領導，去合作發展華埠。</p>
<p>問: 除了中華公所之外，你有沒有希望其他社團都出來幫手？</p>
<p>陳: 當然希望了！</p>
<p>問: 有沒有什麽社團你希望他們出來？</p>
<p>陳: 那一個社團都好，能爲，怎麽說，爲我們華埠，能爲要幫我們華埠，的商業，幫我們華僑。</p>
<p>問: 那你覺得…</p>
<p>陳: 無所謂那個社團。</p>
<p>
問: 你覺得是不是因爲市政府，市政府對唐人街不重視呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我也感覺這裏有一點。</p>
<p>問: 那你覺得唐人街應該可以做什麽使市政府與州政府對唐人街比較重視?</p>
<p>陳: 那要靠那些頭，那些華人，那些領導，那些僑，那些有頭，裏面那些政界，有得溝通，叫他們來幫我們中國街怎麽發展，怎麽樣學一學這些。義大利區你看看人家多旺，多好。那麽小的地方，都做得這麽好。我們中國街這麽大的地方，都學不到。</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有想過自己出來，幫手一下，替唐人街做一下宣傳啊，做一下領導?</p>
<p>陳: 沒，我沒這樣能手。</p>
<p>問: 那你覺得什麽樣的人才可以做唐人街的領導呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我呢，怎麽講，我認爲這個，找那些學職同對政府政界要夠通的。能夠明白那些伶俐的英語，那些東西的。我們外表不是講中文的，是中文與英文的。找個中文的出來做領導，他英文又不行。要花點時間翻譯交通比夠困難一點。</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有鼓勵你子女回來唐人街做這些領導呢？</p>
<p>陳: 沒有。</p>
<p>
問: 爲什麽?</p>
<p>陳: 沒有。我們，怎麽講呢，他們在這裏出世。他們有他們的想法的。同我們的想法不同。</p>
<p>問: 那我想問問你，你有沒有參加唐人街其他的活動，社團，像這些---</p>
<p>陳: 我們參加呢，有時就是環境上來講，因爲我們在這裏做生意。有時他們叫我呢，就那時候叫我呢，打理那些財務，那些東西。</p>
<p>問: 在那裏打理啊？</p>
<p>陳: 幫那些公所啊, 篤親，安親，秀溪房打理財務。</p>
<p>問: 你是怎麽樣幫他們打理財務呢？用多少時間?</p>
<p>陳: 很少。有時候幫他們管理的財務，怎麽講，我們在唐人街做事來講。有時呢，能幫的到公家就幫了。就幫了，就怎個意思。就抽些時間。</p>
<p>問: 你是怎麽樣幫他的？你是幫他們收錢，還是幫他們寫check啊。</p>
<p>陳: 有時，就幫他們有時sign check。有時幫他們間中拿錢去，進入那些支票account。</p>
<p>問: 你是怎麽樣開始幫他們做，義務做這些是呢？</p>
<p>陳: 是義務做的。</p>
<p>
問: 你是怎麽樣開始的？</p>
<p>陳: 很久了，那時候，唐人街做，八幾年那時候，八二、三年開始做，替他們做。</p>
<p>問: 他們有沒有反過來幫你呢？</p>
<p>陳: 啊?</p>
<p>問: 他們有沒有反過來幫你呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我們，怎麽講呢，公所的團體是大家的。你在這個團體，你都想這個團體好。</p>
<p>問: 你是怎麽樣入公所做工所的會員啊?</p>
<p>陳: 是那些父兄叫我進去的。那時候，在唐人街做生意那時候回來，進入，回來公所幫幫，就是幫公家，這樣了。</p>
<p>問: 你進入公所是因爲大家做生意呢？或者是因爲你們同一個地方出來的？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候我，進入公所那時候是，開始入，我那時候呢，去唐人街做生意的。就大家認識，大家多些聯絡的. </p>
<p>問: 會員全部都在唐人街做生意的?</p>
<p>陳: 有些就不是。都有些是的。都不完全是。</p>
<p>
問: 我聽那時候公所厲害很大的。是不是真的？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候就是，一方面呢就是公所厲害大。那時候就是一個，安良公商會了，還有一個協勝工會。它就比較什麽來的，實力比較大的。</p>
<p>問: 他們的實力是怎麽樣大呢? 爲什麽他們的實力這麼大呢？</p>
<p>陳: 他們就保護他們的會員。就像是有時---</p>
<p>問: 怎麽樣保護呢？</p>
<p>陳: huh?</p>
<p>問: 怎麽樣保護呢？</p>
<p>陳: 這我就不是很清楚了。我知道是他們有什麽問題呢，就他們會保護他們的會員了。他們不想給人家“蝦”(壓迫)。他們就拿個公道出來了。就他們就比較，拿公道，對不對或不對，就這樣。</p>
<p>問: 那你在唐人街做生意又沒有給人“蝦”過啊？</p>
<p>陳: 我們在唐人街呢，就沒怎麽給人“蝦”過。所以就，在唐人街做生意呢，你進入這個會呢，就有些保障了。At least有什麽事大家合作解決問題。</p>
<p>問: 怎麽保障呢？</p>
<p>陳: huh?</p>
<p>
問: 怎麽保障呢？</p>
<p>陳: 有什麽急事就大家，有什麽困難大家商量下什麽解決了。</p>
<p>問: 那我聽那時候流氓會過來問，拿利是這些。是不是真的？</p>
<p>陳: 是真的。我們來講呢，就過年呢，他們就送盤吉果，就一人拿一百幾十塊了，幾百塊這樣的。有些就給保護費，每一個月都要個保護費了，餐館啊。但是我是聽他們講。真是假我就不是很知道。</p>
<p>問: 你自己就不用給？</p>
<p>陳: 我就沒給過。過年就，或八月十五，拿些月餅就給一百幾十塊給他(們)。過年啊，拿吉果，就給一百幾十塊給他們。</p>
<p>問: 這個情況維持多久呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我開始做那時候, 八十年, 都開始有這個現象。那時候我開始都有，開始做那時候都給紅包給那些流氓。好像幾百塊那時候的紅包。不然他們就什麽來的。</p>
<p>問: 那什麽時候才停呢?</p>
<p>陳: 停止都有很多年。</p>
<p>問: 五年內，十年內？</p>
<p>
陳: 都七、八年，最少都有七，八年。自從中國街就，那個，clean up那些什麽，那些流氓就---</p>
<p>問: 是政府清理他們，是警察拉走他們？</p>
<p>陳: 那我就不知道。不過這些就是政府或是警察我就不是很清楚。不過這十年，八年就沒有這樣的現象出現。</p>
<p>問: 沒有其他人來bother你們？</p>
<p>陳: 沒有。這幾年沒。</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有其它想講，關於唐人街，或者關於你自己的呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我希望這個唐人街的僑領，就中華公所的領導，最好希望他們領頭市政府，交通這些，怎麽樣來幫助我們，來怎麽拯救我們的華埠。因爲我們的華埠真是，怎麽講，就沒，不是這麽，我們有這麽多商戶在這裏，有這麽多人在這裏，起不到大的作用，同人家這個義大利區比人，希望我們---</p>
<p>問: 那你覺得以後幾年你自己有什麽打算啊？這間店有什麽打算呢？</p>
<p>陳: 這個是我租來的。這個來講呢，屋主我們都是好朋友，都是朋友，都蠻好的。屋主給我租我就租了。(laughs)</p>
<p>問: 那你想什麽時候退休呢？</p>
<p>
陳: huh? (coughs)</p>
<p>問: 那你想什麽時候退休呢？</p>
<p>陳: 怎麽講，這還沒，怎麽講，自己有時，退休時間又多，做工又辛苦。還不是這樣。</p>
<p>問: 那你太太是做什麽的？</p>
<p>陳: 過來幫我手的。</p>
<p>問: 那你---</p>
<p>陳: 她來有時走，她也是做工，有時過來幫忙。</p>
<p>問: 那這裏你請多少人做工的啊？</p>
<p>陳: 三個。</p>
<p>問: 那你是開七日的？</p>
<p>陳: 是。</p>
<p>問: 時間是到幾點鐘呢？</p>
<p>陳: 通常11點到9點。</p>
<p>問: 時間都滿長的。</p>
<p>陳: 十個鐘頭了。我們中國人在這裏個個都是靠時間。</p>
<p>
問: 那你有沒有回到大陸或者香港玩呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我們一年都回大陸兩次到三次拿貨。都不是回去玩，都是去廠拿貨，就是拿貨了。</p>
<p>問: 那你子女是做什麽的？</p>
<p>陳: 我女兒是會計師來的, CPA來的。我兒子就是做商業管理來的。</p>
<p>問: 那你對他們選擇的工作，他們的生活滿不滿意呢？</p>
<p>陳: 都ok啦。自己辛苦，子女，他們都賺錢。你知道我們中國人都一般的傳統，父母不吃也得給子女吃多辛苦都供子女讀書了。他們讀得成書有本事，有份好的工作，是我們就---</p>
<p>問: 那你有沒有想過叫子女回來接這個生意來做呢？</p>
<p>陳: 他們，怎麽講呢，我們這麽辛苦，多是拿份人工。他們多自由，他們有份好的工作，他都不會想要這樣這麽辛苦來找口飯吃。這樣沒有道理叫他們來做這行的。</p>
<p>問: 那你有一天退了休你會不會想在唐人街住下來，或者搬到其它地方退休呢？</p>
<p>陳: 我現在在Queens也有間房子在那裏。我都有回來。我在這裏做工，比較方便出入這樣。</p>
<p>問: 你想那一日退了休回去Queens。</p>
<p>
陳: 我太太就這麽想。</p>
<p>問: Queens那裏啊?</p>
<p>陳: 在Briwood那裏。</p>
<p>問: Briwood。那裏唐人多不多？你們爲什麽選那裏住？</p>
<p>陳: 我們很久了。我們七、七三年買在那裏。都七三年開始買在那裏。</p>
<p>問: 爲什麽選那裏呢？</p>
<p>陳: 那時候環境就，那棟房屋又不想貴，又不是平(便宜)，幾萬元可以買得到。那時候按自己的能力去做這件事。</p>
<p>問: 還有什麽你想講的呢？</p>
<p>陳: 都沒什麽了。</p>
<p>問: OK. 多謝，陳先生。</p>
Dublin Core
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Title
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Jack Chin
911DA Item
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Status
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approved
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unknown
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unknown
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unknown
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Frances Wong
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Ingrid Dudek
Chinatown Interview: Date
0000-00-00
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
counsel. St. Vincent's
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
This is the Chinatown Documentation Project. This is Ingrid Dudek.
Today is December 26, 2003, and let’s just get started. Could
you just state your name and your date of birth?</p>
<p>Wong:
Oh, really? Date of birth, too? Wow. On the screen? Okay. Sure.
[laughs] My name is Frances Wong. My Chinese name is Wong Lai Fong,
and I use my middle initial, L. [birth date omitted per interviewee request]. Okay.
</p>
<p>Q:
And you grew up in Chinatown.</p>
<p>Wong:
I was, yes, I was born and raised in Chinatown.
</p>
<p>Q:
Where are your parents from?</p>
<p>Wong:
My parents are from Hoiping, which is right near a village right next
to Toisan, China, and they---my father came here when he was sixteen,
my mother came here when she was twenty-five. And so, my grandfather
from, my paternal grandfather also came here when he was younger, so
I’m kind of like, uh, I guess a, three and a half ----</p>
<p>Q:
Generation.</p>
<p>Wong:----Generation,
yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
Your grandfather came here and stayed, or then he went back?</p>
<p>Wong:
He came here and stayed. His name was Charles Wong. He is buried in
the Staten Island cemetery. So, yeah, he’s here. [laughs]</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
But your father was born and raised in China---</p>
<p>Wong:
In China, right. He was born in---so they came, I guess he came here
at age sixteen with his father. So I don’t know about my
paternal grandmother, but---</p>
<p>Q:
Your parents met here, then?
</p>
<p>Wong:
No, actually, my father went back to Hoiping to, ah, marry my mother.
Right. So, and this was his third marriage. Yeah, it was really sad.
His first wife he met in Hoiping, China, but she died, and then he
immigrated here, and met someone else here, Dorothy Wong, and she
also died, and then that’s when he went, um---so I have like,
one sibling from his first marriage, two siblings from his second
marriage, a brother and a sister, and then he married my mother and I
have three brothers, older brothers, and I’m the youngest. So.</p>
<p>Q:
So what’s the total, how many?</p>
<p>Wong:
Um, the total is four and three, is seven.</p>
<p>Q:
How old was he by the final marriage?</p>
<p>Wong:
Oh, how old was he? I think he married at, the third marriage was at
fifty-five.
</p>
<p>Q:
Really?</p>
<p>Wong:
I’m not sure, but I believe that’s so, yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
What did he do for work the whole time that he was here in the U.S.?</p>
<p>
Wong: Um, laundry, the laundry, yeah, meaning, not laundrymats,
but, you know, actual ironing of shirts and sending things out and
pressing, having it washed and coming back to the laundry to press
it. We had laundries on the Upper East Side, and the Bronx. And
Brooklyn, actually.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you mother work as well?</p>
<p>Wong:
My mother worked as well, in the laundry, she managed the one in
Brooklyn, and my father did the one in, on the Upper East Side.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you and your brothers work in that as well?
</p>
<p>Wong:
Um, I escaped it. They all did, and I was lucky, I was young then, so
I didn’t have to do a lot of the work. But, ah, I can remember
my brothers working really hard, and I had the fun, so they would
ride a bicycle, they would put me in the carriage and they would
deliver the laundry to people and I would get the benefit of sitting
in the little basket [laughs] when they drove through Central Park, I
mean, when they rode through Central Park, so I was fortunate that
way. My brother Paul did that.</p>
<p>Q:
Where were you living when you grew up?</p>
<p>Wong:
Where was I living? Well, I guess I was living, we lived in the back
of the laundries, um, until age five or six, and then we came back to
Manhattan here, in Chinatown, on Henry Street, where I went to P.S.
1, and P.S. 2, and I went to the local junior high school, which is
Junior High School 56, and I went to the local high school, too,
which is Stewart Park High School.
</p>
<p>Q:
So you’re local all the way?</p>
<p>
Wong: I’m a local all the way. Except for when I went to
college, and I went to Cornell for my Bachelor of Science degree in
human development and family studies, and then I went to University
of Penn, where I have my Masters in Social Work.</p>
<p>Q:
When you say, " the back of the laundries," do you mean the
ones in the Bronx?</p>
<p>Wong:
The Bronx, and you know, I kind of traveled, you know, to all of
them.
</p>
<p>Q:
You moved around?</p>
<p>Wong:
Yeah, I moved around when I was ages one to five. Yeah, that’s
the kind of life---I can’t remember a lot of it, ‘cause
that’s when I was real young, but, yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
How old was your father then, when you were born?</p>
<p>Wong:
Um, he was probably around fifty-eight.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay. Well.</p>
<p>Wong:
Very interesting, huh? He actually, he, he, passed away when I was
twelve.</p>
<p>Q:
Oh. He was seventy.</p>
<p>Wong:
So, yeah.
</p>
<p>Q:
And your mother?</p>
<p>Wong:
My mother, um, passed away about three years ago, in 2000, and, ah,
there’s a story in there that I would like to tell a little bit
later, which has really effected my life deeply. Um, I don’t
know, should I---I guess we could---</p>
<p>
Q: Did you want to---</p>
<p>Wong:
---To talk about it now, or more about the pa----</p>
<p>Q:
Well, could you talk a little more about um----</p>
<p>Wong:
---growing up in Ch----</p>
<p>Q:
---growing up, yeah.</p>
<p>Wong:
Yeah, I would love to talk about growing up in Chinatown.</p>
<p>Um,
I guess, ah, [sighs] in Chinatown, what really had a big influence in
my life was playing basketball. So ages twelve or thirteen through
seventeen, basketball had a major effect on my life. It gave me a
place to have peers, a place to go to. Most of all it helped me
develop my leadership skills, and my commitment to being in
community. Um, even while I was growing up I always wondered, why
did---well, my mother started, after the laundries, started working
in the garment factories and the sweatshops, and I would go up and I
would see all this poverty and struggle. And so I started writing
papers when I was young about racism, I started finding out about um,
Chinatown and the need for Chinatown, that ranged across the states
because of fear of being attacked, you know, there are---numerous,
numerous Chinese were attacked and killed and they were, you know,
throughout our history, since the 1800s, since arriving here.</p>
<p>So
I read a lot of that, and I said, Jeez, there’s just a lot of
racism, it’s just so unfair. So, um, you know, I wrote papers,
and then, um, basketball, even when we did tournaments, I ran some
tournaments, and we even dedicated that to, we called it the Rock
Springs Memorial for the people that died in Rock Springs, Arkansas,
in Arkansas. You know, for the Chinese people that were attacked and
killed.</p>
<p>So,
what happened was, a couple of things. Basketball also gave me---it
gave me, when I say leadership skills, I knew what I wanted to do, it
just gave me skills, I developed a sense of competency, which I hope
that kids now will develop. That’s why I’m interested in
this Asian-American Youth Center, in developing a youth center in the
community. Um, yeah, cause we
used to just play outside in
the parks, or played at P.S. 1, at Columbus Park. Anyway, so getting
back to basketball. I also, it just so happened my coach was from
Taiwan, and so he had a dream of taking a girls’ team back to
Taiwan, to play against the Taiwan girls. We went to Hong Kong and
Japan. So it was really pretty wonderful to have that when you’re
growing up in Chinatown and the only world you know of is----Well,
actually, in Chinatown, you would say that it’s Chinatown, but
it was really very mixed at that point still. Where, you know, there
were African-Americans, Latinos, um, and Jewish-Americans. So it was
really a great community to grow up in, because, you know, I really,
there were differences, but um, it, we accepted each other.
</p>
<p>So,
actually, so having all of that just really helped me to develop my
sense of multiculturalism, um, my belief that we could really succeed
together, and of course, I wasn’t a child of the ‘60s, I
was a little young then, but I benefited from Martin Luther King,
John F. Kennedy’s moves, and it was just really wonderful.</p>
<p>Q:
Because this would have been, what, in the early ‘70s?</p>
<p>Wong;
In the early ‘70s, yeah, between ‘70---I played
basketball in, I guess, ’73 to ’76, that was my high
school days.
</p>
<p>Q:
And there were a lot of identity politics movement at the time?</p>
<p>Wong:
Oh, definitely, yeah. At that point, um, I think we had our first
riot. That Chinatown had the first protest against police brutality,
down here in City Hall. And, I mean, you probably have pictures of
that, but yeah, it was a really interesting time to grow up because,
you know, I guess I’m a pioneer now, or then, but, still a lot,
there were a lot of things happening, so it was really a good time to
grow up. And I guess we were developing our awareness about things
that shouldn’t be. Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
It was quite a different Chinatown then, too.</p>
<p>
Wong: It was a smaller Chinatown. And mostly Cantonese, the people
from Toisan, or Hoiping, or Canton. Or Hong Kong. And there were some
people here, there were families still from China and from Taiwan. So
there---but the first immigrants here were, and I’m sure that
you already have this documented---were the indentured servants that,
I don’t know if I should go into all this, yeah?</p>
<p>[sirens,
and cross-talk about sirens]</p>
<p>Wong:
Should I mention the indentured servants? I don’t think I need
to, right, because other people----</p>
<p>Q:
Sort of in passing, yeah. So let me just say it again, it was a
different Chinatown then, cause probably there were also more
residents than commuters like there are now too.</p>
<p>Wong:
Oh, yeah, definitely more residents. We all, I guess at that point
there were a lot of people that still lived in Chinatown. Um, but
were looking to move out. Like my, I grew up in a basketball family.
My brothers all played basketball, so I was very lucky to be in a
family where my brothers encouraged me to play basketball. It gave
me, in high school, you know I played high school basketball also,
and having an outside team. It just gave me something extra. Also it
was great on my extracurricular activity form for college. So.</p>
<p>Q:
So these were also like community-initiative teams? They weren’t
like the YMCA, they weren’t through school.</p>
<p>Wong:
No, they were community-initiative, yeah. It came about from people
like, actually you might know him, this guy named Tai Ma, who is now
an actor, and he’s in Hollywood. But Tai, Tai’s vision
was to have a basketball tournament. This is from, you may know Fay
Chang, from Basement Workshop, or if you do know Fay Chang from
Basement Workshop, so she developed Basement Workshop, Tai did, for
probably one or two summers, I don’t know, these ah, basketball
tournaments.</p>
<p>
The Chinatown Y didn’t come about until maybe ’76 or
so, yeah, so, but yeah, these were grassroots organizations just
getting together and trying to get the kids together out there to
play. And, I mean, right now I’m part of a grassroots
organization, it’s called the Asian-American Youth Center, and
our vision is to create and get funding for a youth center. And the
youth center that we envision is one that has basketball and has, you
know, a gym in it. But I, of course, since I’m into mental
health, I would love to be able to lead workshops on leadership
skills, get kids ready----I wish I’d had that, actually. That
would have probably helped me to understand the world of politics a
little better now, and how to deal with the politics.</p>
<p>But
also just teaching kids skills about grounding, centering, um,
knowing when to go forward and when to step back, when to be more
aggressive and when to be assertive, and how, what’s the
difference because we all fluctuate between being aggressive and
passive, especially Asians growing up here, we are all very passive,
and, but, we grew up in the schools here, so we learned how to be
aggressive and assertive. So. Um, I would love to be able to do, to
do some workshops with kids that way. And at St. Vincent’s
we’re working, we’re doing mental health in the schools
and stuff like that, but I think I’d like to do more large
workshops just to do a skill development. Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
So your interest in sort of, um, community activity which maybe
started, or you attribute to the basketball period in your life----</p>
<p>Wong:
I think so. I think so.</p>
<p>Q:
--- When did you start more sort of community social service work,
actively, how did that come about?</p>
<p>Wong:
Um, well, I went to---After high school, I went to Cornell. And at
Cornell, I decided from then that it was very much a culture shock
being up there. Because, here I am, I’m used to the city
environment, and I’m used to people just related, but it was,
ah, it was really different at that point. I was one of the few
Asian-Americans that went to college in, I started in 1976.</p>
<p>
So I had decided back then already, I said, after I graduate, I’m
coming back to work in the community, and I decided I really then,
never left the community actually. So I was able to get an internship
there, where I worked with the Chinese-American Planning Council. I
had one semester where I worked with youth. It was called Project
Reach and it’s still in existence now. Don Kao does that now.
But at that point, it was Peter Fong, and then David Chen. David Chen
is now the executive director at CPC. But back then, you know, we
were just all doing youth work. So it was a great experience. It was
a prevention program, preventing kids from using drugs and also
preventing them from going into gangs. Because at that point, there
were kids that were really just dropping out of school, they didn’t
have the bilingual programs, they didn’t have bilingual
counselors, um, and there were a lot of, you know, new immigrants. As
you know, probably in 1965 is when they lifted the, ah, what’s
it called, the Chinese Exclusion Act, and the Chinese started
immigrating here finally.</p>
<p>Q:
What do you mean, just to back up a second, by "culture shock"
in Cornell?<br><br>Wong: ---At Cornell? [laughs] It was a non-Asian,
um, it was really more of a white environment, and it was very hard
at that point, because I was looked at differently. Um, I had, um, I
felt different, very, very different. Not like I was here---I mean, I
was here----I grew up in Chinatown and you know, there were African
Americans and Latinos and Jewish, but going there, there was not a
lot of that, it was mostly people from all over the country, but
white. So it was just very different there, and I felt different,
sometimes devalued. Sometimes devalued. Sometimes, um, good, but
mostly I felt racism. Yeah, mostly. And actually it was great because
Cornell had racism courses and I went, and I took a racism course,
and then after I graduated I continued to work in Chinatown in the
Adolescent Vocational Exploration Program, where we were able to,
like, place kids in the summer with other people in the different
professions, computer, typography, everything. And then, they really
got a lot from those programs.
</p>
<p>But
then I went to the University of Pennsylvania because they have a
dedication to eradicate racism, and so we had to take courses on
American racism two years, for two years. So, um, it has been a
pretty interesting experience. After the University of Pennsylvania I
came back to Chinatown. I worked in the Chinatown Health Clinic, just
developing their services for
Chinese-Americans, and then I
worked at the Chinese-American Planning Council, developing a program
for Asian victims of domestic violence. Back then we called them
"Asian battered women." But, um, we also, and it was quite
difficult watching women struggle, because they were being beaten,
they came here and they didn’t know what their rights were. And
actually a lot of these women are more fortunate because they’re
here. In China they might have continued to be beaten, but because
they were here, they could see a different life, so I was glad to
provide that service that they could live violence-free, and that
they didn’t have to accept or tolerate it. In Chinese there’s
a huge word for "tolerate" and for years and centuries, you
know, women have tolerated being beaten. Being psychologically
beaten, too, by their husbands.</p>
<p>Q:
Is it a program that’s still running?</p>
<p>WONG:
The program is not really running right now, but there’s also
the Asian-American,---there’s the New York Asian Women’s
Center, that is still in existence, and I had volunteered for the
hotline back then. So there was a 24-hour hotline for women to call,
for Asian women to call, that’s in different dialects of
Chinese. So, um, recently----I don’t know if I should talk
about this, but recently one of the women came here, um, and the
struggle still goes on. She still has no place to go, she’s
still a new immigrant, she’s beaten, she has no place to go, so
I’m very glad that she was able to go to, you know, a shelter.
A shelter. So, yeah.</p>
<p>Q: You’ve worked at an
incredible number of different social service centers, and probably
have had a wide range of experience. Do you feel like different kinds
of services, say, education or youth services are maybe more
successful than others, or what kind of outreach is necessary to get
the community to respond? Or is the community ready and waiting to do
what they need to do?<br><br>WONG: The community is not ready and
waiting. It’s really very interesting how the media---media is
very important all over. Even when I was at Cornell I was thinking,
Jeez, if only the Chinese had a radio program we could do more public
education. Well, lo and behold, it’s been very wonderful. You
know, we have now the public radio station, 1480, um, and so that has
proven to be---
you know, if you get on
that program you become a household name and people believe in you,
and it’s just, it’s pretty incredible that we’re
able to reach more people. So, um, I think, actually 1480 is now, but
back then it was the Sino-cast radio station, and the Cheng Hua radio
station, and you had to buy boxes from each radio station to hear, to
get the news. Now, you know, we’re lucky to get the 1480 and
we’re trying to use that. Even though---- so services, through
the radio and through newspapers really helps, so people need to
develop, in my position, need to develop relationships with the
media.</p>
<p>Um,
I guess, ah, the other thing that effected me---well, I’ve been
in the community working for a long time. I had gone into
administration in health care at <b>Governer (?) Hospital, </b>and I
was the director for the Quality Assurance, Quality Improvement
Program. But, um, and it was really good to work in administration.
You saw the other side of how things work, and I felt like I could
make an influence in the quality of care that the community would get
in the hospital.</p>
<p><br>But what deeply effected my life
was that my mother got sick. And, um, it was a time to decide career
or family. And definitely, I think, career came second. Family was
really more important, although you know, all my life I had been very
interested in my career, I wanted to take care of my mother, and that
has made a big difference in my life. Because it made me really
appreciate the time that I had with my mother, because I knew, she
had probably---when she developed renal failure she probably had two
years, three years at the most, and so I really wanted to spend that
time with her. And it’s made me just appreciate life more,
appreciate people, and I decided after that experience that I didn’t
want to go back into administration directly. I decided to go to St.
Vincent’s, to---I wanted to be of service to the community, and
not just to the Asian-American community, but to the world, and
that’s why, um, St. Vincent’s has a program called the
World Trade Center Healing Services, um, dealing with people that had
losses from 9/11, whether it was um, a personal loss with family
members or a fiancée, or a job, or just that they were still
continuing to have trauma and nightmares from just reliving the
experiences of 9/11. I just wanted to be of service that way. And
it’s made a lot of difference, a lot of difference, knowing
that I can help people just normalize and have their lives back.
</p>
<p>Q:
Has this been a very successful program?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>WONG:
I feel that this program has been pretty successful. People in the
Asian-American community, though, still have not come out a lot. You
may know through the Asian-American Federation that they did a
research study and only, they did their research in the community,
through families, but one thing I can just tell you in terms of
percentages, there is the Asian Life Net, which is a hotline for
Asian-Americans to call about services. From 9/11, for two years,
there was only a four percent increase in the hotline, which was not
really a lot. I mean, no matter how much media we did, not a lot of
people came out to talk about their 9/11 experiences.</p>
<p>So,
I --- my skills, I’ve really worked on helping people with
trauma. And I feel like for the people that I’ve worked with
it’s been very, very effective. In terms of what we’re
doing here at St. Vincent’s. So, um, ---
</p>
<p>Q:
How do you get clients there? Are they referred to you, or do they
come in?</p>
<p>WONG:
Both, yeah. They’ve been referred to us, they’ve seen it
in newspapers, and we haven’t gone to the radio yet, but we
will be. I’ve only been here for six months, so---</p>
<p>Q:
But do you feel there’s like an extra cultural reluctance to
seek out, specifically therapy?</p>
<p>WONG:
Yes. Um, well, right, no one really wants to think of themselves as
going to therapy in the Asian community because you’re
considered crazy, and there’s so much shame and stigma attached
to going for therapy. So what we’ve done at St. Vincent’s
since 9/11 is provide auricular acupuncture, or ear acupuncture, and
so we’re hoping to extend that to the Chinese-American
community, and perhaps they would come for more services with ear
acupuncture. We’re hoping to reach people more that way. Um,
and just today I had---this is 12/26/03, and just today I had a new
client, and he has gone for services, and I don’t know how
successful I’ll be, but, I use a little hypnotherapy in my
sessions, and I try to get people to feel safe. That’s one of
the first things about healing, is to get people to feel safe. If
they don’t feel safe, it’s hard to heal. So, um, yeah.</p>
<p>
Q: How do you deal with, um, sort of an abiding sense of shame? Is
that something that you always have to work through when you’re
dealing with the Chinese community in this way?<br><br>WONG:
Somewhat. I think by the time they come here, they’ve gotten
over some of that shame. And what we do is we do work it out further
here, by talking about it a little more, helping them to feel more
grounded, centered, more entitled. I think a lot of the Chinese don’t
feel entitled to anything---to the services, to the relief----so I
think the Chinese-Americans are still having----they’re still
on a learning curve. You know, they’re still learning to be in
America, ah, learning what rights they have.</p>
<p>Q:
So that’s what you would attribute the reluctance to, sort of
culturally?</p>
<p><br>WONG:
Um, could you---</p>
<p>Q:
Well, in terms of low numbers, or in terms of outreach, or in terms
of people taking advantage of the services, despite the media, and
despite----</p>
<p><b>[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]</b></p>
<p>WONG:
I think, okay, for instance, someone read the article and she just
kept it in her drawer for a month before she came for services. I
think people want to, but it takes time to develop the inertia to
say, "Okay, I’m going to go for it, I’m going to
call." And even if we say all the services are confidential,
they’re still afraid that something could get out there, and
they don’t trust that you won’t tell anyone about it. And
that’s why I guess, um, going out there and doing hotline work,
on the radio stations may help. Work, actually at the New York
Asian-American Mental Health Coalition is developing a conference
called Stigma, and so we’re trying to see what will
de-stigmatize coming to the services.
</p>
<p>Maybe, maybe in the next ten years we
could combat that. Cause there’s been a stigma attached to
going for mental health services for such a long time, I don’t
know if we can combat that, but hopefully, yeah.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Can you talk generally at all about what kind of [?] and issues
people have, without being too specific, maybe across generations,
or, are they professional, or are they just---</p>
<p>WONG:
Oh, definitely, there’s a lot of professionals in the Chinese
community that saw the whole collapsing of the towers, and they were
very effected. So we’ve seen a couple of them, but not enough.
The Chinese community were here. You know, they saw the towers
falling, and some people, some people can’t stop crying, they
go into the bathrooms to cry, um, ah, there are people that have lost
their jobs because of that, and SARS then effected the
Chinese-American community, and we just, just, one thing after the,
the blackout, so, it’s just been taking such a toll on the
community.
</p>
<p>Families
still have maybe both---what’s the word for it----both parents
still are out of jobs, and that really has a big impact on mental
health. So, um what else ---
</p>
<p>Q:
Can you, then, can you also direct them to other services?
</p>
<p>WONG:
Um, yes, but there’s, there’s still only a couple of
services, like there’s the Chinatown Manpower, where you could
learn computer skills, there’s not a lot of---I mean, what they
really need, the Chinese-American community, is jobs, but we don’t
have a lot of jobs. But what I could do though is at least help
ground them and heal those wounds that they’ve developed. And
what we find with a lot of the Chinese-Americans is that they’re
re-living that day, and they’re as anxious and depressed, so
they’re reliving, and the anxiety and the depression doesn’t
help.</p>
<p>Q:
And are the services here, how do they work? Are they free?</p>
<p>WONG:
The services here are free. Everything is free. And I would say the
results are quite good. I would say after three sessions, some people
are ready to go. After one session, [laughs] a professional woman
was---I think what I do mostly is help connect people back to their
resources, internal resources, their own skills, their own strengths,
and feeling safe. And that goes
a long way. That goes a
long way in helping people to regain their sense of independence,
their sense of themselves and their identities. Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
How long do you anticipate this program----</p>
<p>WONG:
This program’s going to go on a long time. St. Vincent’s
really wanted to develop a trauma center, so, hoping I’m that,
you know, we’ll be able to help more people, and especially,
um, actually we’re just launching some of our outreach to the
Chinese-American community, so I’m still hoping that we can be
effective that way.</p>
<p>Q:
How would you say, um, this experience has changed your own
relationship to your career and Chinatown, in terms of what you want
to do and what projects, what parts of the community you want to
engage and work with?</p>
<p>WONG:
Um, well, I’m probably doing too much right now, but you can’t
help it, ‘cause you want to do a lot. This experience makes me
appreciate life more, appreciate my friends, you know, it’s
like, Joe was just here a minute ago, and I just said---he’s
the administrator here---and I just really appreciate him, because I
guess we’re always under threat, and we never know when, so it
just has taught me to appreciate life more, and so, you know, I take
time to say, "Geez, that was really nice of you---" you
know, Joe, I just appreciate all that he does. He even bakes brownies
for us. So we have good support here.</p>
<p><br>But
I’m working on the Asian-American Youth Center, which is a
non-profit organization. Everyone on the board is a volunteer. Then
there’s always Friends of Columbus Park. As I mentioned, I grew
up playing basketball at PS 1 and at Columbus Park. And at Columbus
Park right now we’re trying to rebuild, there’s money
there to rebuild the pavilion, and what we’re trying to do is
get the Parks Department to accept the community’s suggestions
about how they re-do the park, what they do with the park and how
they re-do the pavilion.
</p>
<p>The
pavilion could be a community center. Right now it’s not, it
hasn’t been utilized in about fifteen years, and it’s
gone to the pigeons, and there’s money now, but, you know,
we’re trying to
work with the politicians, to get the
Parks Department to understand that the community really needs their
space. It’s just so important here. There really is no one
community center here. Can you believe it? I mean, there’s the
Chinatown Y, there are schools, public education schools, but we’d
love to have a community center, where you can go and ask questions
about what’s it like to be an immigrant here, what kinds of
things should we learn. There are a lot of programs that try to do
that, but there’s no one community where you can just
go---there’s churches---but it’s different. It’s
different, yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you feel like it’s difficult to get the city to acknowledge
that need, as well?<br><br>WONG: Um, yes, I do. But I, we don’t
know yet what to do, because we’re still pioneers, and we’re
still struggling to understand the political system here and how to
effect change. Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
Which just sounds like a lot of the early ‘70s
community-building work---</p>
<p>WONG:
---Yeah----</p>
<p>Q:
---which is what you’re returning to.</p>
<p>WONG:
Yes, I am, yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
I also wanted to ask, um ---I’m drawing a blank--- Can we stop
for a second?</p>
<p>WONG:
I don’t know if you know this, but sometimes a mirror is
grounding---</p>
<p>[crosstalk]</p>
<p>Q:
Okay, sorry about that. I wanted to back up and talk a bit more about
the trauma program at St. Vincent’s and how that’s
organized. Is it directed only at the Chinatown community, do you
deal with other kinds of clients----</p>
<p>WONG:
Oh yes, I do. I deal with all kinds of, a multicultural clientele
here. Yeah.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
And is it, is the program pitched to different communities? Or do you
think this problem of entitlement is in some ways uniquely Chinese or
also an immigrant experience in general?<br><br>WONG: It is. You’re
right. It’s an immigrant experience. We only have so much
funding, but we’re trying impact the adults and also the
children and the adolescents, so St. Vincent’s has been able to
go into the school system, so at Schulz Park High School there is a
Chinese counselor, there is, um, in IS 131 there is a Chinese
counselor, St. Joseph’s there was one, she’s on maternity
leave. But yeah, we’ve been trying to go into the Chinese
community.
</p>
<p>And,
yeah, there are English-speaking counselors, also. There are about
twenty-five staff in the school systems. There’s only about
four of us working with the adults. So I’m, ah, someone else
and I are pretty much it for the Chinese-American community, but I
don’t just work with the Chinese-Americans, I work with other
clientele too. Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
So you speak with Cantonese speakers, and English speakers---</p>
<p>WONG:
---and English speakers, right.</p>
<p>Q:
Would you say there are any sort of, generalized qualitative
differences between the clientele you get from different communities
compared to Chinese communities?</p>
<p>WONG:
Hhmmm. Qualitative, generalized---I think that there are more coping
skills in non-Chinese communities, because they’re coming here
as----okay, if it’s professionals in the Asian-American
community, I think they have more coping skills.
</p>
<p>Q:
What do mean by professionals?</p>
<p>WONG:
Um, I mean the Asian-American professionals, and, you know, people
who work in banks, or stockbrokers, or ah, that, that, people that
work down here in the Wall Street area. Yeah.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
And then, compared to----</p>
<p>WONG:
To the Chinese---</p>
<p>Q:
--- to other kinds of ---</p>
<p>WONG:
---Chinese immigrants who have only been here about two or three
years, or even ten years, who are now out of jobs. I guess it has to
do with the English language again, you know, depending on your
ability to speak English, you can get different jobs.</p>
<p>Q:
Can you talk more about how the community responded to the SARS
scares?</p>
<p>WONG:
How the community responded to it.</p>
<p>Q:
At least, through your clientele, through your observations.</p>
<p>WONG:
Well, we---the community knew that we weren’t affected by SARS,
but there were so many rumors and people who wanted to believe that
there was SARS in the community. Yeah, we had a march in, I think
April or so, where we walked through Chinatown trying to let everyone
know that, you know, "Chinatown is safe!" Even Mayor
Bloomberg and Hilary Clinton came to the Chinese community to let
people know that it was really safe to eat in Chinatown. But we were
still deeply effected by it, still, economically it cut the
community. It was pretty hard. I think we’re just starting now
to, people know that there’s no SARS here.</p>
<p>Q:
I’m wondering also, do different kinds of issues of racism come
up in your experience, in terms of, for example, how people perceive
Chinatown and people deal with that in their daily lives?
</p>
<p>WONG:
Can you ask me more about that?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Well, in terms, for example, of rumors of SARS, and then, how that
effects people personally, or perhaps racism in every day life, say
on the job, or just in the city. Have you come in contact with much
of that, do you feel like that’s part of a major issue for
people in general?<br><br>WONG: I’m still not understanding
your question, I think. I’m not sure---</p>
<p>Q:
Well, I’m just curious about, um---</p>
<p>WONG:
On my job here, or the community----</p>
<p>Q:
Well, your job here or your general experience in direct service
centers.</p>
<p>WONG:
Oh, okay, let’s see. Racism, I, when I went to the University
of Pennsylvania, we were defining as race plus lack of resources plus
fighting for those resources. I, I would say that yeah, SARS and the
impact on Chinatown, there was an element of racism there. Sure, it
was not knowing about this foreign population. Again, you know, we’ve
only really been here for thirty years now, since ’65. Is that
thirty years? It’s only twenty-something years. I mean, even
though we’ve been here for a long time, but there was that
Chinese Exclusion Act, and it wasn’t repealed for a hundred
years. And so we’re still catching up. And so people still
aren’t understanding.
</p>
<p>We’re
the model minority. We’re really doing well in schools, we’re
in colleges, but then what about the new immigrants in this
Chinese-American community, and how, how do people look at them?
Well, you know, it’s always class. There’s class and race
differences, and sometimes in the community right now it’s
class and race. And what I mean by that is, you know, they look at
people who have different ways of expressing themselves, who seem
perhaps, I would still use the word "savage," because they
still probably think of Chinese as different, maybe having the lower
class savage practices, as not being health. So, you know, why would
you want to go to a community that still has a high rate of
tuberculosis, a high rate of this and that, and so it has effected.</p>
<p>
I guess the other thing that recently came up was, well, was the
Chinese-American, is the Chinese-American community still
experiencing racism in politics and from, like the police department.
I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Park Row issue. The
residents in Chatham Green and Chatham Towers, because they live
right near, um, the First Police Precinct, they’ve had their
lives changed as a result of 9/11. Majorly impacted, because they’re
right there, and the streets are closed, and they have to live in a
police state, so the kids grow up thinking they’re unsafe. So
can you imagine what that is like, a police state? They always see
police cars there.
</p>
<p>Plus,
it’s effected, it also has taken away parking. So people, when
they come, they used to come from let’s say, New Jersey or Long
Island to come shop in Chinatown, there’s no parking. That
whole street has been blocked off, and then the municipal parking was
right underneath there. That’s been blocked off. So, yeah, I
mean, so many things have affected the Chinese community.</p>
<p>Q:
So you see all these changes impacting the Chinese psyche?</p>
<p>WONG:
Psyche and mental health. Yeah, all these kids are growing up and
thinking it’s not safe, it’s not safe. I walk outside and
I have to have police protect me.
</p>
<p>Q:
So then could you also talk more generally, either from professional
experience or personal experience about how Chinatown has changed for
you? Cause you’ve been here for awhile and you’ve also
been very active for a good portion of that time. Cause there’s
new immigrants, there’s new issues in the city government, all
those things.</p>
<p>WONG:
Ingrid, I’m not sure how to answer that right now. [laughter]</p>
<p>Q:
How would you talk about the future of Chinatown?<br><br>WONG: Yeah,
I know, I want to give hope but I can’t feel it right now
[laughs]. Okay. Got it. Okay. Oh, Gosh, the community is just so
large, at this point, and it just makes me really happy that we
finally have a larger percentage. The New York Chinese-American
community is one of the---it is the largest Chinese-American
community [aside: I’m sorry] across the country. It, okay I’ll
say that again. The Chinese-American community is the largest across
the country, for New
York, and I think it’s, yeah,
according to the 2000 U.S. 2000 census, it is the largest in
Chinatown, Manhattan.
</p>
<p>And
what’s wonderful is that we finally have some numbers, and
hopefully, we’ll develop some voting capacity. I want to
encourage every single person to go out there and register to vote,
‘cause that makes all the difference, all the difference in the
eyes of the politicians. We need to develop our political power. And
all the, the Chinese-American----because we have so many dialogues in
Chinese, we’ve always had a lot of differences. People, the
Chinese don’t know how to work with each other. And I, I guess
through my days of working on facilitating this and facilitating
workshops, I’m really hoping to facilitate some of that. But I
don’t know. Really, a lot of it has to come from heart. People
have to feel like they can trust each other. I’m really hoping
that the Chinese-American leaders can work together to develop the
community, and get services for the community, not just for oh, okay,
my little pocket or my little pocket here. It’s again, scarcity
of resources. But, um, you know, maybe the leaders can decide after
we get the money how to divide it, but----</p>
<p>Q:
Do you feel like there’s a possibility for that, because it
seems to me that in some ways your experience is very unique in that
you’ve stayed in the community and you’ve worked and
lived here. Whereas often there’s a high turnover rate, some
people choose to move out or not necessarily to reinvest in the
community.</p>
<p>WONG:
Could you say----</p>
<p>Q:
Do you have a sense that there’s sort of a growing critical
mass of interest in working on these issues in Chinatown?</p>
<p>WONG:
Oh, yes, I actually sense that how 9/11 has effected people is that
they are more interested in living life to its fullest and maybe
contributing. I mean, for one, I said, that’s where I want to
be, I want to work with people who have trouble still with 9/11. I
wanted to be of service to the world that way. And then, to my
community to. So, I’m hoping that, you know, this message will
be brought to a lot of people and that more people will come out to
help. So. Okay. That’s a wrap? [laughs]</p>
<p><b>[END
OF INTERVIEW]</b></p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕這裡是唐人街文件
問﹕但您父親是在中國出生長大的---</p>
<p>王﹕在中國﹐是的。他出生在---然後他們就來這裡了﹐我想他16歲跟他的父親一起來這裡的。我不太清楚我爺爺的事情﹐但是---</p>
<p>問﹕您的父母親是在這裡認識的嗎﹖</p>
<p>王﹕不是﹐實際上﹐我父親回到開平娶的我母親。這是他的第三次婚姻。是啊﹐的確很不幸。他在中國開平認識了第一個太太﹐但她死了﹐後來他移民到這裡﹐然後又在別處遇到了Dorothy Wong﹐後來她也死了﹐然後他又回了---。所以﹐我有一個繼兄弟姐妹是他第一個太太生的﹐還有兩個是他第二個太太生的﹐一個是哥哥另外一個是姐姐。然後他就娶了我母親﹐一共生了四個孩子﹐我有三個哥哥﹐我是最小的。</p>
<p>問﹕一共有多少個﹖</p>
<p>王﹕四加三﹐一共是七個。</p>
<p>問﹕他最後一次結婚時有多大年紀﹖</p>
<p>王﹕他有多少歲﹖我想他結第三次婚時是55歲。</p>
<p>問﹕真的﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我不太確定﹐但我想應該差不多。</p>
<p>問﹕他在美國期間都做些什麼﹖</p>
<p>王﹕洗衣服﹐我說的洗衣服不是去自助洗衣店﹐而是熨襯衫﹐送衣服﹐熨平﹐洗﹐再回來熨。我們在Upper East Side﹑布朗士區﹑布魯克林區都有開店。</p>
<p>問﹕您母親也有工作嗎﹖</p>
<p>
王﹕我母親也在洗衣店做工。她負責布魯克林的洗衣店﹐我父親負責Upper East Side的那一間。</p>
<p>問﹕您和您哥哥們有沒有在那裡做工﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我沒有。他們都有﹐我算幸運﹐我當時年紀還小﹐所以不用干很多活兒。但我記得我哥哥們工作很努力﹐我卻在一邊玩兒﹐他們總是踩單車﹐把我放在車架上。他們給人家送衣服﹐而我坐在小筐裡。[笑]。他們經常開過中央公園﹐我是說﹐他們騎車穿過中央公園﹐那時我的確很幸運。那是跟我哥哥Paul。</p>
<p>問﹕您小時候是在哪裡長大的﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我住在哪裡﹖我想我們住在洗衣店的後面。等我到了五﹑六歲的時候﹐我們搬到曼哈頓的唐人街﹐在亨利街。我在那裡上的P.S. 1和P.S. 2﹐然後在附近上的初中﹐是在第五十六初級中學﹐後來又上了附近的高中﹐Stewart Park中學。</p>
<p>問﹕那您一直都是在附近﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我一直都在附近﹐但除了大學﹐我去康奈爾上的本科﹐學的是人類發展和家庭研究﹐然後又去賓州大學攻讀社會學碩士。</p>
<p>
問﹕您剛纔講的“洗衣店的後面”指的是布朗士的那一間嗎﹖</p>
<p>王﹕布朗士﹐包括其他那幾間﹐我差不多都去過。</p>
<p>問﹕您經常搬家嗎﹖</p>
<p>王﹕是的﹐從我一歲到五歲的時候﹐我經常到處搬。就是那種生活---我記不得太多了﹐因為我那時還很小。</p>
<p>問﹕您出生的時候﹐您父親有多大年紀﹖</p>
<p>王﹕他差不多58歲。</p>
<p>問﹕哇。</p>
<p>王﹕很有意思﹐是不是﹖實際上﹐在我12歲的時候﹐他就過世了。</p>
<p>問﹕噢﹐他當時70歲。</p>
<p>王﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您母親呢﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我母親大約三年前去世的﹐是在2000年。有件事我想待會兒談一下﹐它對我的生活影響很大。我不知道﹐要不我---我想我們可以---</p>
<p>問﹕您想---</p>
<p>王﹕---現在講嗎﹐或者---</p>
<p>
問﹕您能否談一下---</p>
<p>王﹕---在唐人街長大---</p>
<p>問﹕---長大﹐是的。</p>
<p>王﹕好的﹐我想講一下在唐人街長大的情況。</p>
<p>我想﹐在唐人街﹐對我一生影響最大的是打籃球。在我從十二﹑三歲到十七歲期間﹐籃球對我的生活影響很大。我因此交了一些同齡的朋友﹐總去些地方玩兒。最重要的是﹐它鍛煉了我的領導才能﹐使我更加融入社區。甚至在我長大的時候﹐我總是想﹐為什麼---是我母親引起的﹐在洗衣店之後﹐她又在衣廠工作﹐非常辛苦﹐我有時去那裡﹐看到到處是貧窮和掙扎。所以﹐在我很小的時候﹐我就開始寫有關種族歧視的文章﹐開始寫有關唐人街和唐人街的需要等文章﹐那時全美國都鬧得很凶﹐很多華人都擔心被攻擊﹐因為有很多很多中國人都受到攻擊甚至被打死﹐從1800年﹐從我們到這裡時開始﹐一直到現在。</p>
<p>這些我都聽到很多﹐使我感覺到有很多的種族歧視﹐實在是不公平。於是﹐我就寫文章﹐甚至在我們打籃球打比賽的時候﹐我參加了幾次比賽﹐我們將其命名為Rock Springs Memorial﹐為紀念那些在阿肯色州Rock Springs遭攻擊致死的中國人。</p>
<p>所以﹐有這麼幾件事情。打籃球還使我---它讓我---我講的領導才能是指我知道我要做些什麼﹐我從中學會了些技巧﹐增強了我的自信心﹐這也是我希望當今的兒童能夠學會的一些東西。這也是我為什麼對Asian-American Youth Center感興趣的原因﹐要在社區建立一個青年中心。是的﹐因為我們曾經經常在外面的公園裡玩兒﹐或者在P.S. 1﹑Columbus Park玩兒。現在再談回打籃球。很湊巧﹐我的教練是從台灣來的﹐他有一個夢想﹐即他要帶一支女子隊去台灣﹐和台灣的女子隊打比賽。我們去過香港和日本。<br>
如果真能實現的話的確是好極了﹐特別是對於我們這些在唐人街長大的﹐因為我們所了解的事情只局限于唐人街。你們也許會說那個時候這裡仍然是唐人街﹐但在那個時候這裡的人還是很雜的。當時有黑人﹐南美洲人﹐還有猶太人。所以﹐我成長的社區的確是多姿多彩的﹐因為我們之間有很多不同﹐但都能夠彼此接受。</p>
<p>所以﹐實際上﹐這一切促成了我的多元化的意識﹐使我堅信我們能夠一起繁榮。當然﹐我不是在60年代長大的孩子﹐我那時還很小﹐但我受到馬丁路德金和約翰肯尼迪運動的影響很深﹐這的確是很好的事情。</p>
<p>問﹕因為這些是70年代初的事情﹖</p>
<p>王﹕70年代初﹐是啊﹐在七幾年我打籃球﹐我想﹐73到76年﹐我在上中學。</p>
<p>問﹕那時有很多民主運動﹖</p>
<p>王﹕沒錯﹐是的。在那時候﹐我想是我們組織了第一次運動。那是在唐人街舉行的第一次反對警察暴力的示威遊行﹐是在City Hall。你也許還能見到那時的照片﹐成長在那段時期的確很有意思﹐我想我都成了元老了。那時發生了很多事情﹐所以﹐成長在那個時期還是蠻不錯的。我想我們逐漸養成了一種反抗意識。是的。</p>
<p>問﹕那時的唐人街同現在很不一樣吧。</p>
<p>王﹕那時的唐人街還很小。很多都是廣東人﹐從臺山﹑開平或廣州來的﹐也有香港人。還有一些人﹐他們的家人還在中國和台灣。但第一代移民---我想你們都有這方面的資料---<br>
都是契約工﹐我不知道要不要繼續講下去﹖</p>
<p>[警笛嚮﹐交換了幾句有關于警笛的對話]</p>
<p>王﹕我應不應該講一下契約工﹖我想沒這個必要﹐因為其他人---</p>
<p>問﹕可以順便講一下。再回到剛纔的話題﹐那時的唐人街很不一樣﹐也許因為當時的居民比較多﹐不像現在﹐很多人只是來這裡上班。</p>
<p>王﹕是的﹐的確在這裡住的居民比較多。我想在那個時候很多人仍然住在唐人街﹐但都想搬走。我生長在籃球世家。我的哥哥們都打籃球﹐所以我很幸運在這個環境長大﹐因為我的哥哥們都鼓勵我打籃球。在高中﹐我也有打籃球﹐並組建了球隊﹐因此有很多業余活動。而且﹐這些課外活動對我後來上大學也有好處。</p>
<p>問﹕這些也是社區組織的球隊嗎﹖這些不像YMCA﹐不是學校組織的。</p>
<p>王﹕不﹐這些是社區組織的。發起人有﹐實際上﹐你也許也知道﹐有個人叫Tai Ma﹐他現在是演員﹐在好萊塢。但Tai Ma的願望是組建一支籃球聯隊。這是由﹐你也許知道Basement Workshop的Fay Chang﹐如果你真知道Basement Workshop的Fay Chang的話﹐是她建立Basement Workshop的﹐包括Tai﹐但他也許只干了一兩個夏天﹐有關籃球聯賽的具體情況我也不太清楚。</p>
<p>在唐人街﹐直到76年左右才開始有了Y﹐這是些剛剛成立的基層的組織﹐目的是吸引孩子們參加比賽。現在﹐我也屬於一個基層組織﹐叫作Asian-American Youth Center﹐我們的目標是籌建一個青年中心。<br>
這個青年中心要有一支自己的籃球隊和體育館。但我﹐當然﹐因為我對精神健康比較感興趣﹐我想成立一些講習班討論有關領導才能方面的話題﹐讓孩子們準備好---實際上﹐我希望我能做到。那也許會幫助我更好地了解政治﹐以及如何處理好一系列政治方面的問題。</p>
<p>而且要教授孩子們一些基礎訓練﹐集中精神﹐知道何時向前沖何時向後退﹐何時應該有闖勁何時應該有自信的技巧﹐以及這些技巧之間的差異﹐因為我們總是在主動和被動之間徘徊﹐尤其是在這裡長大的亞洲人﹐我們都是很被動的﹐但是我們在這裡的學校長大﹐所以我們懂得怎樣抓住主動權和表現自信心。我很想能夠給孩子們組織一些講習班。在我們工作的St. Vincent's﹐我們在學校進行精神健康等的教育﹐但是我還是想多舉行一些大規模的講習班專門提高某些方面的技巧。</p>
<p>問﹕所以﹐你對社區活動的興趣來源于您以前打籃球的經歷﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我想是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是什麼時候開始積極地做社區的義工服務工作的﹖是怎樣開始的﹖</p>
<p>王﹕高中畢業後﹐我去了Cornell。那時在Cornell﹐我感受到很大的文化衝擊。因為我已經習慣了城市的環境和週圍的親人﹐但在那裡卻很不一樣。那時﹐上大學的亞洲裔美國人並不多﹐那是在1976年。</p>
<p>所以﹐在那個時候我就已經決定畢業之後要回到社區工作﹐而且在那之後我從來也沒有離開社區。我在社區的Chinese-American Planning Council實習。有一個學期我帶了一些年輕人﹐組成了一個叫作Project Reach的組織﹐這個組織現在還存在﹐現在是由Don Kao負責。但在那時﹐是由Peter Fong負責﹐後來是David Chen。<br>
David Chen現在是CPC的行政主管。但在那時﹐我們只是做一些年輕人的工作。所以﹐這對我是一個很好的經歷。那是一個預防的項目﹐防止孩子們使用毒品以及參加黑社會。因為那時有的孩子綽學﹐他們學校裡沒有雙語的課程﹐也沒有雙語的輔導員﹐但那時有很多新移民。你知道﹐Chinese Exclusion Act是在1965年左右被取消的﹐在此之後﹐大批中國人才開始移民到這裡。</p>
<p>問﹕稍微打斷一下﹐您剛纔提到在Cornell有很大的文化衝擊是什麼意思﹖</p>
<p>王﹕在Cornell﹖[笑] 那裡沒有亞洲人﹐那兒基本上是個白人的天下﹐那段時期的確很困難﹐因為別人用不同的眼光看待我。我感覺我跟週圍的其他人非常非常不一樣。跟我在這裡很不同﹐我是在唐人街長大的﹐從小到大週圍有黑人﹑拉丁美洲人和猶太人﹐但那裡沒有這麼多其他種族的人﹐那裡的學生大多來自全國各地﹐但都是白人。所以﹐那裡很不一樣﹐同時我也感覺到我跟其他人不一樣﹐有的時候感覺被人家瞧不起。大多情況下還好﹐但我能感受到種族歧視的存在。是的﹐大致如此。實際上﹐這也是件好事﹐因為Cornell有開種族歧視方面的課程﹐而且我也有上。在我畢業之後﹐我繼續在唐人街的Adolescent Vocational Exploration Program工作﹐我們負責安排孩子們的暑期活動﹐讓他們有機會和從事不同職業的人接觸﹐比如計算機﹑攝影等。他們的確從中受益匪淺。</p>
<p>後來﹐我又去了University of Pennsylvania﹐因為他們那裡長年致力于消除種族歧視的研究項目﹐而且我們必須上兩年有關美國種族歧視的課程﹐整整兩年。那是個很有意思的經歷。從University of Pennsylvania畢業之後﹐我又回到了唐人街﹐在唐人街的健康診所工作﹐發展那裡對美籍華人的服務。然後我又到Chinese-American Planning Council工作﹐開展一個有關亞洲人因家庭暴力而遭受傷害的項目。在那時﹐我們稱其為“受虐待的亞洲婦女。”這些受虐待的婦女的確很可憐﹐因為她們被打後跑到這裡﹐但不知道她們的權利是什麼。但實際上這些婦女還算幸運﹐因為她們至少是在這裡。要是在中國﹐她們可能會繼續被虐待﹐<br>
但因為她們在這裡﹐她們可以改善這種情況。所以﹐我有幸為她們提供這些服務使她們能夠生活在沒有暴力的環境裡﹐而且跟她們講她們沒有必要接受或容忍這種情況。中國文化在多少年來﹐以至多少世紀來﹐都在崇尚一個“忍”字﹐中國婦女在被打後也是默默忍受﹐包括受她們丈夫的精神虐待。</p>
<p>問﹕現在那個項目是不是還在進行﹖</p>
<p>王﹕現在那個項目已經沒有了﹐但還有一個紐約亞洲婦女中心﹐那時我也有自願幫助他們接熱線電話。那裡有一個24小時的熱線電話為婦女﹑亞洲婦女提供幫助﹐而且有好幾種中文方言的服務。而且﹐近期---我不知道是否應該提這個﹐但近期有一個婦女到這裡﹐她家裡的暴力還是時有發生。她沒有地方去﹐她還是個新移民﹐被打﹐沒有地方去﹐所以﹐我很高興她能找到一個避難所。</p>
<p>問﹕您在多個社區服務中心工作過﹐因此也有很多方面的經驗。您是否覺得有的服務﹐比如說教育或是青少年的服務﹐會比其他方面的服務搞得成功些﹖或者說﹐做哪些事情比較容易擴大影響力會使社區有所響應﹖還是說社區一直是在期待﹐一直很響應﹐您懂我的意思嗎﹖</p>
<p>王﹕社區一直不是非常響應。所以說﹐媒體的宣傳是非常重要的。甚至在我上Cornell的時候﹐我都一直在想﹐如果能辦一個中文電臺的廣播節目﹐我們能夠做更多的公共教育。後來﹐果然不出所料﹐這些都有搞﹐而且還都搞得很不錯。現在我們有一個公共廣播電臺﹐1480。如果你有參加電臺廣播﹐你會成為家喻戶曉的人物﹐別人也會相信你﹐所以﹐能夠通過這種方式擴大知名度是很好的事情。現在有1480﹐但以前是中廣電臺(Sino-cast radio station)和Cheng Hua電臺﹐而且你必須要從每個電臺那裡購買接收器才能夠收聽到廣播和新聞。現在﹐我們很幸運能通過1480廣播﹐我們也一直儘量充份利用。<br>
儘管通過電臺和報紙傳播有很大的幫助﹐但在我看來﹐人們也要增進和媒體的互動。</p>
<p>另外一個對我有影響的是---我從事社區工作已經很久了。我曾擔任過州長(﹖)醫院健康護理的行政職務﹐以及質量監督﹑質量提高項目的負責人。我比較適合做行政工作。你得以了解到很多事情的另一面﹐而且我感覺我能夠給醫院對社區提供護理服務的質量帶來很大的改觀。</p>
<p>但對我生活影響最深的是我母親的病。當時我必須在事業和家庭兩者之間做出選擇。我覺得事業肯定是次要的。家庭是非常重要的﹐儘管我一生都很喜歡我的職業﹐我還是想照顧我母親﹐這給我的生活帶來很大的變化﹐因為這使我非常珍惜同母親在一起的時間﹐因為我知道她可能---當她腎功能衰退後﹐她頂多能再維持兩﹑三年﹐我的確想和她多相處一些時間。這使我更加珍惜生命﹐珍惜人﹐在此之後我決定不再直接負責行政事務。我決定去St. Vincent's---我想為社區做些事情﹐不僅是為美國的亞裔社區﹐而是全世界。因此﹐St. Vincent's設立了一個叫World Trade Center Healing Services的項目﹐以幫助9/11的受害者﹐不論他們是因為9/11失去了親人或未婚妻﹐或是工作﹐還是因為經歷了9/11而受到精神創傷或經常做惡夢。我只是想以這種方式幫助他們。能夠看到通過我的幫助別人能夠重新恢復以前的生活我就很知足了。</p>
<p>問﹕這個項目是不是很成功﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我認為是很成功的。但亞裔社區很少有人跟我們聯系。你可能聽到Asian-American Federation有做過一項調查研究﹐他們有通過家庭調查做了一些統計﹐有一點我能肯定的是﹐有一個Asian Life Net﹐<br>
是專門為亞裔美國人開通的服務熱線。在9/11之後兩年內﹐熱線電話的使用量才增長了百分之四﹐實在是不多。我的意思是說﹐儘管我們做了多少媒體方面的努力﹐並沒有很多人跟我們聯系講述他們9/11的經歷。</p>
<p>我的確在幫助那些受創傷的受害者的方面很有技巧和經驗。我自認為我的方法對我治療過的病人都很有效﹐我指的是我在St. Vincent's的病人。</p>
<p>問﹕您的那些病人是怎麼到您那裡去的﹖是別人介紹的﹐還是他們自己找去的﹖</p>
<p>王﹕都有。有的是別人介紹來的﹐有的是看了報紙﹐我們暫時還沒有在電臺上做宣傳﹐但我們以後會的。我只在這裡做了六個月。</p>
<p>問﹕但您是否覺得因為文化差異﹐很多人不願意尋求幫助﹐特別是心裡治療﹖</p>
<p>王﹕是的﹐沒錯。他們不想讓別人認為他們在亞裔社區尋求心理治療是因為他們精神有問題﹐一般來講人們都會認為看精神醫生是件很羞愧和丟臉的事情。所以﹐9/11之後我們在St. Vincent's舉辦了耳部針灸﹐希望能夠以此在華裔美國人社區擴大影響﹐希望他們能夠做了耳部針灸之後再到這裡來接受其他方面的治療。我們希望以此擴大影響。今天我剛剛﹐今天是12/26/03﹐今天我剛剛接收了一個新病人﹐我不知道我的治療是否有效﹐但我使用了一點催眠療法﹐我想讓病人有安全感。治療的首要一件事就是要讓他們有安全感。如果病人感到很不安﹐治療就很難再進行下去。</p>
<p>問﹕您是怎樣應付這種固有的羞恥感的﹖這是不是在您治療中國病人的時候都要涉及到的問題﹖</p>
<p>王﹕多少會有一點。我想他們到我這裡來的時候都多少已經克服了一些羞恥感。我們需要做的是要進一步引導他們﹐<br>
讓他們心裡感覺更扎實些﹐更加唯我一些﹐讓他們知道這是他們的權利。我認為很多中國人不認為自己有權獲得很多東西---比如服務﹑救濟---所以﹐我認為華裔美國人還是有---他們還是在學習。他們還是在適應美國﹐在了解他們的權益是什麼。</p>
<p>問﹕所以﹐您認為這種遲疑是文化因素造成的﹖</p>
<p>王﹕你能不能---﹖</p>
<p>問﹕從數量上﹐或從付出的努力上﹐或從利用服務的人本身﹐盡管媒體﹐盡管---</p>
<p> 王﹕比如說﹐有人看到文章報道後﹐又把它放在抽屜裡﹐一個月以後才到這裡治療。我想人們還是有這種意識﹐只是需要一段時間才能打定主意﹐說“好﹐我現在就要去了﹐我現在就要打電話。”盡管我們跟他們講所有的治療都是保密的﹐他們還是怕別人知道﹐你跟他們講你不會告訴別人他們就是不相信。正是因為這個原因﹐我猜想通過建立熱線電話和電臺做廣播的方式效果要好一些。實際上﹐New York Asian-American Mental Health Coalition在搞一個叫作“Stigma”的研討會﹐我們想研究一下到底用什麼方式可以讓別人覺得接受治療不是一件羞恥的事情。</p>
<p>也許﹐在今後十年內我們能夠克服這個問題﹐這是因為很長一段時間人們一直把接受精神治療和羞恥結合起來。我不知道我們能否解決這個問題﹐但希望如此。</p>
<p>問﹕您能否大致談一下您都有些什麼樣的病人以及他們有些什麼樣的問題﹐用不找太詳細。他們是不是些專業人士﹐還是---</p>
<p>
王﹕可以。在中國人社區有很多專業人士目睹了姊妹塔傾倒的全過程﹐這對他們的影響很大。我們有些這樣的病人﹐但還不算多。中國人社區就在這兒。有些人看到塔倒了後就忍不住失聲痛苦﹐他們有的跑到洗手間裡哭﹐還有些人因此失去了工作﹐後來的SARS也影響了華裔社區﹐真是一件接一件﹐後來又是大停電﹐給社區造成很大的創傷。</p>
<p>有的家庭裡也許兩個---應該怎麼講---父母都沒有了工作﹐這會給他們的心理健康帶來很大的打擊。</p>
<p>問﹕您能不能把他們介紹到其他地方去呢﹖</p>
<p>王﹕類似的服務結構只有幾家﹐比如唐人街的人力部門﹐在那裡你可以學到計算機技能﹐但不是很多---我的意思是﹐華裔社區最需要的是工作﹐但我們並沒有很多的工作。但至少我們可以幫助他們重新振作起來﹐醫治好他們的創傷。我們觀察到很多華裔美國人的心裡還是有9/11的陰影﹐總是非常地焦慮和抑郁﹐所以﹐他們總是在追想過去﹐而焦慮和抑郁都不會有任何幫助。</p>
<p>問﹕這些醫療服務是怎樣運作的﹖是不是免費的﹖</p>
<p>王﹕醫療服務是免費的。所有的治療都是免費的。而且﹐效果還是蠻不錯的。可以說﹐接受三次治療後﹐有些病人就康復了。一次治療之後﹐[笑] 一位職業婦女---我想我的任務主要是幫助人們找到他們從前的感覺﹐內部的資源﹐他們的技能﹐他們自己的力量﹐以及安全感。這會花很長的時間。幫助人們重新獲得獨立感﹑他們對自己的感受和認同需要很長的時間。是這個樣子的。</p>
<p>問﹕您預計這個項目還會---﹖</p>
<p>
王﹕這個項目還會搞很長時間。St. Vincent's很想建立一個創傷中心﹐所以﹐希望我們能夠幫助更多的人﹐特別是﹐我們剛剛開展了對華裔社區的宣傳活動﹐所以﹐我還是希望這樣做的效果會好一些。</p>
<p>問﹕您認為您的這個經歷給您與您事業和唐人街的關系帶來哪些變化﹖比如在您想從事的事業方面﹖您想參與社區裡的哪些事務﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我現在也許負責的事情太多﹐但這是你無法控制的﹐因為你總是想多做一些。這個經歷使我更加珍惜生活﹐珍惜我的朋友。就好象是說﹐Joe剛剛還在這裡﹐我剛講過---他是這裡的行政負責人---我的確很感激他﹐因為我們總是面臨各種各樣的威脅﹐但我們從來不知道是什麼時候﹐這使我更加珍惜生活﹐我會找機會跟他講﹐“真是多虧了你---”Joe﹐我真是感激他所做的一切。他甚至為我們做些小餅干。所以﹐我們會相互支持。</p>
<p>但我現在在Asian-American Youth Center工作﹐那是個非盈利機構。所有的董事會成員都是志願者﹐都是在Columbus Park認識的朋友。我先前提過﹐我小時候在PS 1和Columbus Park打籃球。現在﹐我們要在Columbus Park重建一個亭子﹐已經籌足了資金﹐我們的目的是想讓公園管理部門接受社區的建議﹐包括重新修建公園﹐如何更好地利用公園﹐以及重建一個亭子。</p>
<p>這個亭子可以作為社區的中心。現在它還不是﹐它在那裡閑置了有大約十五年了﹐專供鴿子歇息用。現在我們有了資金﹐我們想尋求政府官員的幫助﹐讓官員管理部門認識到社區的確需要自己的場地﹐這一點是非常重要的。這裡實在是沒有一個社區中心。你信不信﹖我的意思是說﹐這裡是唐人街﹐這裡有學校﹐公立學校﹐但我們還想有一個社區中心﹐以便人們可以到這裡來咨詢一些問題﹐比如﹐這裡移民的生活怎麼樣﹐我們應該掌握什麼技巧。類似的服務項目有很多﹐<br>
但就是沒有一個固定的社區中心給人們提供便利---盡管有教堂---但那是不一樣的。是不一樣的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是不是覺得很難也讓市裡認識到這種需要﹖</p>
<p>王﹕是的﹐我是有這種感覺。但是﹐我﹐我們還不知道該怎樣做﹐因為我們也是剛剛起步﹐我們也在不斷摸索這裡的政治體制﹐以及怎樣才能推動一些變化。</p>
<p>問﹕這聽起來好象是七十年代建設社區的過程。</p>
<p>王﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕這也是您想從事的事情。</p>
<p>王﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕我還想問一下---我現在又一時不知道該怎麼講---能不能先稍微停一下﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我不知道你是否知道﹐有時候鏡子是---</p>
<p>[同時講話]</p>
<p>問﹕不好意思。我想回到剛才的話題﹐再談一下St. Vincent's的創傷項目﹐它是怎樣組織起來的﹖是不是只是針對唐人街的社區﹐還是說同時也接收其他病人﹖</p>
<p>王﹕是的。我們接收各種各樣的病人。</p>
<p>問﹕那個項目是不是面向各個不同的移民社區的﹖您是否認為這種權利享用方面的問題只是中國文化特有的問題﹐還是一般移民都會存在的問題﹖</p>
<p>王﹕的確是。你講的對。是普遍的移民問題。我們的資金有限﹐<br>
但我們想幫助成人﹑兒童和青少年。所以﹐St. Vincent's得以走進校園﹐我們在Schulz Park High School有一個中國輔導員﹐在IS 131也有一個中國輔導員﹐在St. Joseph's也有一個﹐她現在在休產假。是的﹐我們盡力想走入中國社區。</p>
<p>對了﹐還有一些講英文的輔導員。我們有大約25名員工在學校任職﹐只有我們四個治療成人。所以﹐只有我和另外一個人負責華裔社區﹐但我不單單只治療華裔美國人﹐我也有治療其他病人。</p>
<p>問﹕那您有講廣東話和英文的病人---</p>
<p>王﹕---還有講英文的病人﹐是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您認為中國社區的病人和其他社區的病人在本質上大致有什麼不同嗎﹖</p>
<p>王﹕從本質上來講﹐---我認為其他非華人社區的模仿能力比較強﹐因為他們到這裡來是作為---我認為華裔社區的專業人士有更多的模仿能力。</p>
<p>問﹕您提到的專業人士是什麼意思﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我提到的美國亞裔專業人士是指那些在銀行工作的職員﹐或股票經紀人﹐那些在華爾街上班的人。</p>
<p>問﹕拿他們和---</p>
<p>王﹕和中國人---</p>
<p>
問﹕和其他的中國人比較---</p>
<p>王﹕其他的中國移民﹐那些才到這裡兩三年的﹐甚至到這裡十年但現在沒有工作的。我認為這還是跟英語水平有關系﹐如果你能講英文﹐你的出路就很多。</p>
<p>問﹕您能講一下社區對SARS的反應嗎﹖</p>
<p>王﹕社區是如何反應的。</p>
<p>問﹕至少是通過您的病人了解到的﹐通過您自己的觀察。</p>
<p>王﹕社區民眾知道我們沒有被SARS傳染到﹐但是實在是有太多的謠言﹐導致人們相信社區裡有SARS傳染。我們四月份在唐人街組織了一次遊行想讓別人知道﹐“唐人街是安全的。”甚至市長Bloomberg和Hilary Clinton都有來中國社區向別人展示在唐人街就餐是安全的。但我們的確受此影響很大﹐社區也因此遭受了經濟損失。是很艱難。我想人們才剛剛知道這裡沒有SARS。</p>
<p>問﹕我在想在您從業過程中是否有各種各樣的種族歧視問題﹐比如說﹐別人怎樣看待唐人街﹐以及日常生活中是怎樣對待的﹖</p>
<p>王﹕能再講得具體一些嗎﹖</p>
<p>問﹕比如有關SARS的謠言﹐這怎樣影響到人們的個人生活﹐或者也許是日常生活中的種族歧視﹐比如在工作環境裡或城市裡。您是否有類似的經歷﹖您是否認為這是人們日常生活中都需要面對的問題﹖</p>
<p>
王﹕我還是不明白你的問題﹐我不能肯定---</p>
<p>問﹕我只是有些好奇罷了---</p>
<p>王﹕你是指我的工作上﹐還是在社區裡---</p>
<p>問﹕您的工作過程中﹐或是您在其他醫療中心的經歷。</p>
<p>王﹕好的。種族歧視﹐在我讀University of Pennsylvania的時候﹐我們把它解釋成種族﹐加上資源的缺乏﹐再加上為爭取資源的努力。我覺得就SARS和對唐人街的影響來講﹐這裡面是有種族歧視的因素。誠然﹐這是對這些外裔群體缺乏了解。再有﹐我們來這裡只不過才有三十年﹐從65年算起。不是三十年嗎﹖僅僅是三十幾年而已。我的意思是說﹐儘管我們在這裡有很長時間﹐但排華法案在一百年之後才被廢除。所以﹐我們還是在努力發展﹐很多人體會不到這一點。</p>
<p>我們是少數裔族的典範。我們在學校﹑在大學的表現都非常好﹐但那些剛剛來到華裔社區的新移民就不同了﹐那麼人們是怎樣看待他們的﹖這裡總是有一個階級的差別﹐有階級和種族的差異。我的意思是說﹐他們看到的是人們有各種各樣表達自己的方式﹐但他們可能會認為﹐我還是要用“野蠻”這個詞﹐因為他們還是視中國人與眾不同﹐也許是因為我們的一些作法比較低級野蠻﹐不利於健康。也就是說﹐你為什麼要到一個仍有很高的肺結核或其他疾病發病率的社區去﹖種族歧視就是如此產生的。</p>
<p>另外一個有關華裔社區受歧視的例子是政治方面的﹐比如警察局。我不知道你是否聽說過Park Row事件。在Chatham Green和Chatham Towers的居民﹐因為他們離第一警察區比較近﹐<br>
他們的生活因9/11變化很大﹐受到很大的衝擊﹐因為他們就住在這裡﹐街道都被封了﹐他們祇得在警察的監管下生活﹐所以﹐在那裡長大的孩子總是有種不安全感。你能想象在警察監管下的生活是什麼樣子的嗎﹖他們經常看到有警車出沒。其他的影響還包括警車佔用了停車場地。那些從紐澤西或長島來唐人街的人大多是來這裡購物的﹐但卻找不到地方停車。整條街都被封了﹐卻有很多政府用車停在那裡。所以說﹐華裔社區受到很大的影響。</p>
<p>問﹕因此﹐這些變化對這裡華人的心裡上都有很大衝擊﹖</p>
<p>王﹕心裡上和精神上。是的﹐所有在這個階段長大的孩子都覺得有種不安全感。我到外面走一走都需要有警察保護我。</p>
<p>問﹕那您能不能憑您的工作經歷或個人體驗大致談一下您是怎樣看待唐人街的變化的﹖畢竟您在這裡生活了很長時間﹐而且在這期間您一直是非常活躍。而且﹐這裡又來了很多新移民﹐政府部門又因此有了很多新的問題。</p>
<p>王﹕Ingrid﹐我現在實在不知道該怎樣回答你的問題。[笑]</p>
<p>問﹕您覺得唐人街的將來會是怎樣﹖</p>
<p>王﹕我是有信心的﹐但是現在還是不是非常地確定。[笑] 這個社區的確很大﹐在現階段﹐能夠看到我們佔了很大地盤我已經是很開心了。根據2000年的人口普查﹐紐約市曼哈頓的唐人街是全國最大的華裔社區。</p>
<p>我們的人口增加了﹐希望我們選舉的影響力也因此增長。我想動員大家積極進行選民登記﹐<br>
因為這樣華裔勢力才會所影響力﹐才會得到政治家的重視。我們需要壯大我們的政治力量。即使是在華裔美國人之間﹐因為我們中文裡有這麼多的方言﹐我們之間也有很大的差異。中國人之間不知道該怎樣相互合作。因為我以前工作和舉辦研討會的時候曾致力與此﹐所以我希望我能對此有所貢獻。但具體怎樣實現我也不清楚。我衷心希望華裔領導能夠通力合作發展我們的社區﹐為社區多做貢獻﹐而不單單是為填滿自己的腰包。還是那句話﹐資源缺乏。也許那些領導們在獲得資助之後再決定如何把錢分下去。</p>
<p>問﹕您覺得有這個可能嗎﹖依我看來您的經歷比較特殊﹐因為您一直待在社區﹐在這裡工作生活。但大多數人在這裡待了一段時間之後就搬走了﹐沒有把資金重新投入在社區。</p>
<p>王﹕你能否---</p>
<p>問﹕您是否覺得現在越來越多的人對唐人街的這些問題感興趣﹖</p>
<p>王﹕是的。實際上﹐我覺得9/11使人們變得越來越重視享受生活﹐也許還有種想做貢獻的想法。比如﹐我說過我想做什麼什麼事情﹐我想幫助那些仍然受9/11困擾的人。我想以這種方式幫助全世界的人﹐包括我的社區。我希望很多人都能夠聽到我的呼籲﹐這樣更多的人能夠站出來伸出援助之手。這個結尾怎麼樣﹖[笑]</p>
<p>[採訪完畢]</p>
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Title
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Frances Wong
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approved
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Selina Chan
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2003-12-15
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
nurse St. Vincent's
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
It is December 15. I am sitting with Selina Chan of St. Vincent's
Hospital. If you can, just for the record, say your age and your full
name, both in English and in Chinese.</p>
<p>Chan:
My name is Selina Chan. I was born in 1950, okay, so I'm fifty-three
years old. [Repeats in Chinese].</p>
<p>Q:
You don't need to do everything in two languages, but I just wanted
to get your Chinese name.</p>
<p>Chan:
Sure.</p>
<p>Q:
Can you tell me where you are from?</p>
<p>Chan:
Original, I was born in Shanghai. Then I emigrate to Hong Kong. I was
practically grow up in Hong Kong. Then I come to the United States in
1975.</p>
<p>Q:
At what age did you go to Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Chan:
At my age nine. Nine years. So I was born after that Communist party
coming to China. So we didn't have a difficulty time to go to the
Hong Kong at that time. So because my father was in Hong Kong so
luckily we can apply the visa and went to the Hong Kong at that time.</p>
<p>Q:
So in 1959 you legally went to Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Chan:
Legally leave China. It's not legally enter to the Hong Kong. It
looks like the old history about the boat men, I go for the same
thing at that time. I legally leave Shanghai, go to Macao, and take
the boats, and escape to the Hong Kong.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
And why was your father already living in Hong Kong at the time?
</p>
<p>Chan:
He's a sailor.
</p>
<p>Q:
A sailor?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah. He working in the ship. So that's why, when the time happening,
so he was actually down in the Hong Kong side. America. So he never
went to the China. I was born after then, the Communist party.</p>
<p>Q:
So 1949. It was already ten years since the Communist take over. So
what was your life like in China? Do you remember?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, I do remember. Well, you know that childhood life is always
memorable. And actually, I was in China, we have not really that bad
because we do have getting the money and the things sent back from
Hong Kong. So we really should say that we do live quite comfortably.
Nothing look like what we read as life in China.</p>
<p>Q:
So your father was always traveling. He was not in Shanghai much.</p>
<p>Chan:
No.</p>
<p>Q:
And why did he not want to return to Shanghai but wanted to take the
family out of Shanghai?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, the main thing is that he was working with the Holland
Shipping Company, okay? So if he leave the job, and he went to the
Shanghai, it would be not easy for him to get a job. That's first of
all. Second of all, you know, it would be much, because our other
family member look like my cousin, my aunt, my uncle, they all
immigrate to go to the Hong Kong. So that's why decided we leave the
Shanghai and go to Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
So it was not because of political reasons?</p>
<p>Chan:
No, no, no, no. Nothing at all like that.
</p>
<p>Q:
So your family didn't go through a lot of hardship after 1949?</p>
<p>Chan:
No. Yeah. We should say we are very lucky on it.
</p>
<p>Q:
So then your entire family - that means, you, your mother, and all
your siblings, went to Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Chan:
I only have my mother and me, only. So after we went to the Hong
Kong my mother give birth to my brother. So it was only two of us.</p>
<p>Q:
So you went by boat.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Tell me about that journey. Did you pay somebody - how is that done?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, actually, it's - we went to the journey twice. The first time
we went to the boat, was hiding underneath of the boat, and turn
around the captain, he is a drug addict, so he keep on busy taking
the drug and not sailing the boat. So we were caught by the police,
actually. I went to the Macao, we stay in the jail for overnight. So
next day my father come over to Macao, get us out. So the second time
we pay even higher price to get a more reliable captain to escape to
the Hong Kong. So I always remember where we have the whole boat,
everybody was stuck in the bottom of the ship, so a lot of people was
throw up and vomiting, sea sick. So I was only nine years old, and my
mother was six months pregnant. She have really difficulty time to
walk. I was guiding my mother. And we need to climb the mountain from
one side of the mountain, climb the mountain and go into the other
side, get into the second boat, and we went to the Hong Kong.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
This is in Macao, you're talking about. Now how many people were on
this boat, about?
</p>
<p>Chan:
Is about hundred peoples. Is about hundred peoples. So when we went
to the Hong Kong, we were stopped by the police. Okay, actually, the
people is grouping us together, me and my mother and two other old
couple. We are grouped together. So four of us. So when the police
stop us, the police usually would go to the youngest one to ask where
you come from. So I was just nine years old. I just can able to
answer, say, 'Well, I come from Hong Kong.' So they said, 'Well,
where you going?' I say, 'Well, we going to have lunch with my
grandparents.' So the police let us go. This is way back to 1959. So
we could able safely to get to my father's place.</p>
<p>Q:
But you only spoke Shanghai-ese at the time.
</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, I stay in the Macao for a month to wait for the opportunity to
go to Hong Kong. So I pick up the language in Macao for Cantonese.
</p>
<p>Q:
Do you remember how much you paid for the journey from Shanghai to
Macao and then Macao to Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, I think at that time we pay close to $3,000. That's 1959. It's
quite a lot of money.</p>
<p>Q:
Three thousand U.S. dollars?</p>
<p>Chan:
No, no, no. Hong Kong money. But still is quite a lot. This is 1959.</p>
<p>Q:
So you were sneaking out, basically. It's not legal.</p>
<p>Chan:
Right.
</p>
<p>Q:
But then once you got to Hong Kong, then your father already had a
house there?</p>
<p>
Chan: Apartment. For there, for us.</p>
<p>Q:
And what status did you have there?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, it's still illegal. But later on, because after you live in
Hong Kong certain amount of year, you can apply for the residency in
Hong Kong. So I do basically have my school training - education - in
Hong Kong. Until the high school. Then I went to the nursing school
in Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Q:
So your father continued to work as a sailor. Often out of Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
And you lived with your mother and then, soon, a younger brother.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
And what about the rest of your extended family? Where did they go?</p>
<p>Chan:
I don't know. We have a lot of cousins that live in Hong Kong also.
But I still have a cousin in Shanghai, and also my grandparents in
Ningpo<b>.</b> That's my mother's side. So we still went back to
China to visits.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you understand what was happening at the time? Were you afraid?</p>
<p>Chan:
No. Not really. Maybe it's my personality. I'm always looking to
have a new adventure, and to see what's going on, on the other side
of the world. So to me it look like - it happen very naturally. It's
not that much scaring going on. Even the captain of the ship, he say,
'For a young girl look like this, you are very brave. You are not
scared at all.' Because a lot of people were so scared in the boats.
And I did nothing. And actually, when the time we climb the mountain,
I lost my mother. Because she was pregnant, she's difficulty to walk.
So they are really rush us, so I
have to follow the crowd,
move very fast, then turn around - I cannot find my ma. So I'm able
to go back and find my mother, until my mother go to the other side
of the island.</p>
<p>Q:
This is in Macao. When you first land, and your boat land on one
side and you have to get on the other side.</p>
<p>Chan:
Right. Right.</p>
<p>Q:
So what do you think give to you all this strength for a young
person?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, I think it's the same thing. I will say that I always like to
see - I always like to take advantage, to see what is the new things
outside the world. That's why I want to see - when I was in Shanghai,
I'm always dream, how is my father's life in Hong Kong? Okay. I
remember when we took the train to go to Canton, then we need to take
the other train to go to the Macao. And my father saw the way my
mother walk, and he told me, he said, 'I don't think both of you can
get to Hong Kong very safely. I'd better buy the return ticket to go
back to Shanghai.' I told my father, I said, 'No. No matter what
happened, I want to go to Hong Kong. Take a look on Hong Kong, what's
it look like. And finish my dream.' So my father say, 'I'll wait
until you sleep at the night time, I tie you up, put you in the
train.' I say, 'Fine. I'm not going to sleep the whole night.' I
didn't. I sit there whole night, wait for the next day to get the
other train to go to the Macao. And it's personality, I should say
that.
</p>
<p>Q:
Now why did your father not go back to Shanghai and get you? Was
that possible at the time?</p>
<p>Chan:
Because if he go back to Shanghai - he did go, because it's too many
hours for the train - so he did went to the Canton to get us. And he
went to the Macao for us together. He make all the arrangements, put
us up in the hotel in the Macao, then he went back to Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Q:
So in 1959 in Hong Kong there were lots of Shanghai-ese at that
time.
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Lots of people from China.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Pretty much everybody illegally.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
So are you able to go to school?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, I did went to the school. But in the beginning always have hard
time, because my Cantonese is not that great. And also I don't know
English at all, so I do have a difficulty time for a couple - one
years. The second year I'm doing very well already.</p>
<p>Q:
And what school did you go to?</p>
<p>Chan:
It's only very small private school. It’s in Hong Kong. Is
very easy to get in, a one flight school, those kind of set up. It's
not a big school system like now.
</p>
<p>Q:
Was it a bilingual school?</p>
<p>Chan:
They have English class, but it's not that much. Most of the subject
is in Chinese. Or in Cantonese.</p>
<p>Q:
So you learn English as a second language, from a language course,
basically.</p>
<p>Chan:
Right. It's very little.</p>
<p>Q:
And where in Hong Kong did you and your mother live?</p>
<p>
Chan: We live in the Kowloon near Hunghom.</p>
<p>Q:
Hunghom?</p>
<p>Chan:
- yeah, near the trains - but later on we moved to the Kwung Tong.</p>
<p>Q:
And how often did you see your father?</p>
<p>Chan:
He came back home every three months, when the ship is arrive in
Hong Kong. And he's still working for the ship company.</p>
<p>Q:
So your father financially supported the family?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Your mother worked?</p>
<p>Chan:
No. With my mother's physical condition not that great. So he most
of the time, it look like, every month he have money - she stay in
the hospital. She doesn't feel well. So I'm home taking care of my
brother, and sometimes we have housekeeper, some time we don't.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was your life like? Did you feel welcome in Hong Kong? Did
you like it?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah. I do.</p>
<p>Q:
You didn't have problem adjusting?</p>
<p>Chan:
No. I'm the person is very easy to fit into new surroundings. So I
don't have no difficulty time at all.
</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. So you are obviously a nurse today. When was the first
time in your life that you think you might want to go into medicine?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, way back to when my mother was in the hospital. She do get
mistreated by the nursing staff, okay? I did told her at that time -
I was in the senior high school - I said, 'Look, don't think you are
big shot, can treat a patient like that. Give me couple of years.
When I come back I would going to show you what is a good nurse
about.' So that's what I make up my mind I want to become going into
nursing school.
</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think somewhere in you, you wanted to help your mother?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. I did. But unfortunately my mother pass away.
</p>
<p>Q:
Before you graduate, finished? So you went to nursing school in Hong
Kong.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
And did you like it right away?</p>
<p>
Chan: Well, not really you like it right away. I always remember,
because my last name is Chan, every single time, alphabetically -
A,B,C - I'm always on the first one in the class. So whenever is new
opportunity and new war and new place you need to go, I'm the first
one to go. So we went to the nursing school what we call Nethersole -
in Hong Kong. So at the time, I was asked PTS, that means first
newcomer, after three months they sent me to the GYN unit and after
then they sent me on the night shift in the pediatric unit. The only
thing we know is wash and change the diaper, and feed the baby. Then
after the pediatric unit they sent me to the operating room right
away. I went into the operating room, I was completely shocked. I
don't know nothing was going on, even that they said, 'Oh, this is
appendix surgery.' I would just look at patient's body - where is the
appendix? Because we haven't gone into anatomy yet. I don't know
what's going on. We do, in the beginning, do have a hard time. So I
really think, is that really the job for me? But I did promise my mom
I want to be a nurse. To serve the other people. So I did go through.
It's not that easy, but you get it over.
</p>
<p>Q:
You didn't want to be a doctor?</p>
<p>Chan:
When I come to the United States I do have a couple opportunities.
They do offer me scholarships and everything, go to the medical
school. The thing is, when I come to the United States, I make sure
my father quit the job, stay home. I need to send the money back to
my father and my brother. So economically I cannot afford. Even I can
get a scholarship for myself, then what happen to my father and my
brother? They cannot just starve to death waiting for me to finish my
medical degree. So sometimes you have to see the balance. So it's
okay, you know? The nursing is the same thing as the way to helping
the other people, the same as medical doctors.</p>
<p>Q:
Now, why did you decide to come to America - in '75, you said?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. So the main reason we decided to come to the America was
because my uncle was in the America. And then the other thing, even
there I did not go for the hard time in a Communist country. There
was some talking about the Hong Kong would go back to Communist. You
heard
it, the rumor was going on. And then my uncle, in
the United States, he get a doctor to sponsor me to come over. So I
say, okay, give myself a try. And I decided to come over.
</p>
<p>Q:
But Hong Kong would not be handed over to China until 1997. You had
twenty-two years -</p>
<p>Chan:
Right. But nobody can know what's going on. The other way is thinking
about it. At that time they really want to send me to London, to go
to nursing school. For the further education. But I saw the way there
- London - English people treating the - they don't believe equal
rights. I'm the kind of person who believe the equal right. So in the
British system, looks like the bottom person talk to the nurse, if
you are the ward assistant you doesn't talk to the nursing students.
That's not my idea of the life. Instead of going to London I think my
personality will be much suitable for the America. So I make up my
mind I want to come to America.
</p>
<p>Q:
Where did you get this impression about English people? You study
under Brits in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Chan:
Our nursing school have followed the British system. That's giving a
little thinking about it, the way the British handling the job.</p>
<p>Q:
Very proper.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
So who decided that you should come alone and that your father and
your brother should stay behind?</p>
<p>Chan:
Because, main thing, I was apply for the professional visa. It is
not a family visa. So my father and my brother cannot come along. So
my uncle is only the new immigrant, he cannot apply my father to
come. And also my father was getting old. He's sixty years old
already at that time, so maybe much better, easy, for him to stay in
Hong Kong. I don't want him to go to the ship to work anymore,
because you never stay home and you don't know what's going on. So
</p>
<p>
I decided to come to the United States, then I ask my father to
stay home to take care of my brother.
</p>
<p>Q:
So '75, you came to where in America?</p>
<p>Chan:
New York.
</p>
<p>Q:
This is where your uncle was?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. So I never left the New York [laughs].
</p>
<p>Q:
What was your first impression of New York City?</p>
<p>Chan:
Funny thing is, when I first time get to the JFK, my flight was five
o'clock in the early morning. So our flight is one hour early, and my
uncle, they thought the flight would be one hour delayed. They did
not come to the airport to pick me up. Everybody left - except me.
Also, I have two luggage before I get into the plane. So one of my
friends work in the airport, so he told me, 'Okay, let me help you to
put in luggage trunk.' So when I get to the JFK I lost the two
luggage. And inside the luggage is a lot of things some of my friends
ask me to bring over to United States for they family member. So to
me, if I lost my own belonging, it doesn't matter. But lost someone
else belonging, I'm quite nervous. So I was quite nervous at that
time. And the whole airport is completely empty. Only I saw a black
porter clean up in the JFK airport. I was getting very nervous. But
good thing I do have some currency change, so I do able to ask the
porter, 'Is there anyway I can find a phone?' So he do pointed to me
where's the phone, so I made the phone call to my uncle. So they said
it would takes them half hour to get to pick me up. So I stay in the
airport for an hour, close to an hour, by myself. I was very nervous.
I said, 'Gee, that is America?' You saw the face - like, I never saw
that in Hong Kong. And I lost my luggage, cannot see my family
member, and so big, the place is so big and so huge. I was sitting
there, and doesn't no nobody. Alone. Quite nervous though.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you speak English at the time?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Chan:
A little, yeah. But just very nervous.</p>
<p>Q:
So you were twenty-five at that time.
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Were you done with school?
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, I did.</p>
<p>Q:
But in America you need another certificate.</p>
<p>Chan:
Right.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay. So you sat at the airport. Before coming here, what did you
think America would be like?</p>
<p>Chan:
I'm type of person doesn't think that much. Just do it. You know?
Sometime, if you want to think about every single details, what's
your plan, sometimes the life is not exactly what you plan for. If
you set up your mind, I'm going to go and get it, you actually will
be much better get a result instead of have a plan and then there
will be a lot of disappointment come take place. I just believe one
thing - I want to go to United States, I want to work hard, to get my
life straight together in America, put my feet on the ground.</p>
<p>Q:
When you came, did you think you would stay here? Or did you plan to
get education and work experience to go back to Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Chan:
I do was thinking to go back to Hong Kong. Maybe ten years later,
how to see as everything's going on there. I may go back to Hong Kong
at that time. That's only original my thinking - just want to come to
the United States to see what's happening.
</p>
<p>
Q: But you never moved back.</p>
<p>Chan:
No.
</p>
<p>Q:
And in all this time, did you go back to Shanghai at all?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, I did.
</p>
<p>Q:
When was that?</p>
<p>Chan:
Couple years ago. I think it was the first time make up my mind I
want to go back to Hong Kong. And Shanghai. I did went to Hong Kong
quite a lot, but Shanghai I didn't go back for a long time. I went to
travel to Russia. So some people look at me, 'Oh, you're Chinese.
How's China look like?' I say, 'I ask myself. This is very good
question. You ask me. I really doesn't know what China look like now
- now that they - ' So after I come back from Russia I say, 'Look, I
better go back to China. To take a good look before I went to the
other country. So at least I know what is my own country looks like.'
So next year I went back to Shanghai, and Beijing, Hangzhou, and
Canton. I made a tour for three weeks, to take a good look on China.
This is 1984.
</p>
<p>Q:
So thirty-four years after you left. Oh, I'm sorry, you left in
1959. That's not right.</p>
<p>Chan:
Fifty-nine. It's about twenty-five years.</p>
<p>Q:
What did you feel going back?</p>
<p>Chan:
It feels - no matter what happened, still is your home town. You
really feel very touching. I went back to see the place where I was
born, where I was grow up, and, you see, I have my aunts still in
Shanghai, so they come to the hotel to visit me. You know? And the
other thing, at that time, China is not as open as now. They don't
even have a public bathroom set up. That's the
thing I
really doesn't get used to. I went to my aunt's house, I can't get
used to the bathroom system. I have to rush back to the hotel. But I
still really feel like I'm very, very welcome in your own home town.
It's a feeling nobody can take away from.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you feel that way in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
And what about here?</p>
<p>Chan:
In here - because, main thing, I work lot of time with American
agency. I really feel like, no matter what happen, discrimination is
there. Usually - I do remember I work for the ILGWU (International
Ladies Garment Workers Union) union health center. They have a lot of
multi-culture people. Even then I have ninety physicians under me.
They will take a look and look at me and say, 'You don't look like an
ordinary Chinese.' I turn around, ask them, 'What is the ordinary
Chinese mean to you? Do they have a four letter in front of their
forehead? Suppose whatever you say I need to say yes to you?' You
know? I say, 'I'm sorry. This is not the way it's supposed to be.'</p>
<p>Q:
This is in the seventies and the eighties? When did you experience
this?</p>
<p>Chan:
This is the seventies. The end of the seventies. Okay. They still
thought, Chinese people are more humble. And whatever they say, we
only say 'yes'. Either they are right or not. I'm sorry. It is not
the way it is. I more believe equal. If you give me some guideline to
do, it's not right. I have my right to speak up and to defend myself
at the same. You are a professional - I'm a professional also. Okay.
So why should you're on top of me? I need to follow whatever your
guideline, and it's not right. That's what I believe.</p>
<p>Q:
So did you encounter that very often, or was that once in a while
you feel that way of these kind of comments thrown at you?</p>
<p>
Chan: I should say that in the beginning, first couple of year.
Then after a while, they know me. They will not do it to me anymore.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think because there were not as many Asians here at that
time? In nursing?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
And maybe in nursing there's not as many Asians -</p>
<p>Chan:
It's not as many Asian and it's not as many people who are Chinese
people will speak up for themselves. To defense on them. So it's a
quite - from nowadays, until that time, it's a completely different
pictures.</p>
<p>Q:
Did it ever make you feel you wanted to go back to Hong Kong to be
amongst Chinese?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, I don't think so. Because I may have been lucky that the other
Chinese people. I could speak English. So, yes, the life if I go back
to Hong Kong it will be much easier than here. But at least in here,
I can protest some of the Chinese. I could speak up for them, and
fight for some of the benefit for them. So if everybody selfish, so
nobody will change the whole life.
</p>
<p>Q:
So how many years were you in school in New York?</p>
<p>Chan:
I was - the main thing is, I have to send the money back to Hong
Kong to support my father. I just go the evening time or the weekend
time. I waited, did not go to the official school to get the
training or anything done. Well, in the beginning, you say now the
new immigrant is not easy. The old time we are not that easy. I work
in the garment factory, I work as housekeeper, you know? Wherever I
can put hands on to make moneys, I do that. As long as I don't do any
robbery, any illegal things, I'm so proud of myself. Because whatever
the money I make, I use my own hands to make the money and support my
father and my brother.</p>
<p>Q:
And who did you live with in New York?</p>
<p>
Chan: I did get myself a apartment, to live by myself. Down in
the Queens.</p>
<p>Q:
Where you still are today.</p>
<p>Chan:
No. I do move couple times away.</p>
<p>Q:
And today, where do you live?</p>
<p>Chan:
I live in Queens. Main Street.</p>
<p>Q:
Oh, Flushing.</p>
<p>Chan:
In Flushing.</p>
<p>Q:
A big Chinese community.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
And then at one point did you join St. Vincent's in Chinatown?</p>
<p>Chan:
I was working for the ILGWU union health center as a clinical
director for sixteen and a half year. Because my CEO, he's a Jewish -
he treat me very, very good, look like my father. And he teach me a
lot. And when the time we changed and the CEO comes in, the whole
policy changed. So he did tell me that. He say, 'Chan, I don't think
will be a comfortable surrounding for you to work.' At that time he
was sitting in one of the nursing homes, on the board, he say, 'Chan,
maybe think about nursing home.' I say, 'Nursing home never is my cup
of tea. I like a fast movement, I like the outpatient, I like the
emergency room. It's not a nursing home for me.' He said, 'Chan,
don't say the thing too fast. Give yourself a good opportunity to
think about it.' So then, later on, when I saw the thing is not
moving as the same way I was expecting, so I figure, 'Maybe is a
right time for me to move.' But the nursing home was in the Bronx at
that time. I was
living in Brooklyn. My father was staying
with me. He's eighty years old, already. So it's not real easy for
him to move, to adjust to a new surrounding. Then I went to take my
driving license - fortunately I pass my driving license - then I told
him, 'Now I could take the job.' Because otherwise it takes me three
hours to commute. I'll always remember, I bought a car the night
before, the next day I went to the new job. I drive for one and a
half hour, and then I cannot find the nursing home. I go for all the
difficulty time on the driving. But I learn a lot in the nursing
home. It's a Jewish nursing home - I'm the only Chinese people
there. Then the only problem is, my personality, I'm more involved
with the patients' care. Ten o'clock every night, I did not get home
until eleven. And six o'clock, turn around, have to go to work again.
I was so tired. I bump into couple car accidents.
</p>
<p>[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE}</p>
<p>So
I decide maybe it's not the thing for me. And at the time, St.
Vincent's has a job opening. My friend was retired and she wanted
me to take over. And I went over to take the job in St. Vincent's. It
was a very funny interview. I even told the director and the V.P. in
St. Vincent, I'm not St. Vincent's style, because I'm more
aggressive. I said, 'If you cannot take my attitude I think we should
stop the interview.' Turned out they all agreed on it. Actually they
made the arrangement before they said yes, I'm taking the job. I even
take a salary cut, I take a job title cut. In the nursing home I was
associate nursing director. It’s a 524<b> </b>bed and also they
promise me, the nursing director, as soon as she retired I'd be the
nursing director. And is always in my dream, I want to set up a
Chinese nursing home. To help the Asian community. So at that time I
was very tired, and, you know, my health come first. So I do decided
to leave the nursing home and come to St. Vincent's. But still, in
the nursing home, they told me one thing: 'Selina, you remember, if
it's money we can make out all the money you want.' I said, 'No, it's
not the money. It is really my interests are still in the Chinese
community, and also our patient set up.' And he told me one thing -
'If the thing doesn't work out, you know it's only one phone call
away, you could get a job next day.' I said, 'Thank you for offering.
I will remember.' But I did not went back yet. [Laughs] I went back
for visit, I never went back to work.</p>
<p>Q:
Was part of the appeal to work at St. Vincent's because of this
location in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chan: Yes. And also, you feel like, no matter what happens, I'm a
Chinese. Deep in my heart I'm so proud of myself as a Chinese. I want
to get back to Chinese community what I learned. Yeah, maybe I cannot
do so much, but at least even I can serve. I can help one or two
people I feel very happy.
</p>
<p>Q:
Ok, I’m going to step in another direction for a little bit.
It sounds like you were studying and working a lot, for a long time.
Did you have time for romance? Did you marry?</p>
<p>Chan:
No. I'm still single. That's the big problem. Actually, one time I
was working in the unions, the unions always pay lower, and my
brother needed to go to college and I need the money to support. I've
always had two job. I work for the union Monday through Friday. On
Saturday and Sunday I'm doing private duty nurse. Some of the
patients that they like me so much I even work twenty-four hours a
day. Looks like I'm working nine days a week, you know? So I really
doesn't have no life for my private life.</p>
<p>Q:
So you pretty much have devoted your lifetime to nursing.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, I did. I did. Sometimes you feel good, if some of the patients
give the remark, you really feel, 'boy, I make some people change'. I
even have one private patient, is a Jewish man, he have a gunshot
wound. When the first time I got this patient he really is from neck
down completely paralyzed. Until the end, he is driving the van. Even
he's still paralyzed but he could drive the van. I took him around, I
took him to the theater, I took him to the movie, I took him to the
diner, and we even went to travelling. So even himself, he said, 'You
look my own family. Without you I cannot travel so much.' I even took
him to his son's graduate from medical school, in Harvard, from
Boston. I fly with him, and do everything. You feel very good about
it, you know. Sometimes the reward is quite different. It's not that
money can buy.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think if your mother was still alive to see your work, what
would she say?</p>
<p>Chan:
She would be so proud of me, you know. Because even, now I'm working
St. Vincent, we understand Chinese. Our education level sometimes
quite different. We doesn't have that much
medical
knowledge such as popular people in America. So some of the patients
have a lot of difficulty time. I will do my best to help them. If you
can help couple people, you really feel good.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay. I'm going to jump ahead to September 11th. [quick discussion
of length of tape left. <b>NEED EDIT OUT]</b></p>
<p>Now give me
an idea of the scope of St. Vincent's in Chinatown, what it is able
to handle before September 11th. Give me the kind of - is it mostly
an outpatient facility?</p>
<p>Chan:
St. Vincent's Chinatown clinic was set up since 1976. At that time
because of the new bride from China to come to the United States, and
they don't have no health insurance so St. Vincent's come to what
they needed for the OB Department. We set up a clinic in Chinatown to
help the new immigrant mother-to-be. So that's our first beginning of
the clinic in Chinatown. We're in the Park Row. We actually bought in
the church, one of the small room in the back. And then after the
mother was give birth to the baby, is a demand of the pediatric
units. So we open up pediatric units and we move to the East
Broadway. Then after the baby is growing up and the mother become
older, then is a demand for us to open a general medical practice,
and we move to our new location on the Canal Street and Elizabeth. So
the St. Vincent history was changed. St. Vincent usually give quality
care. They not really as high profile. They put a down, low profile,
we don't have no advertising in Chinatown. Only by the patients'
mouth. So a lot of people in Chinatown doesn't know St. Vincent's
that much. I remember at the 9/11 time I went to - because my god
sister went to China for the visit. She contacting a big tour,
leading them to the Beijing to visit the Beijing family. So I was
staying in Long Island with my godmother. So I drove into work on
that morning. And the traffic was so heavy. I was driving the car, I
keep on hear the ambulance and police car -</p>
<p>Q:
What time was this?</p>
<p>Chan:
This was around ten minutes after nine, around that time. I was
wondering, even before I get to the city already it's so crowded.
What's going on? Nobody know. And you turn on the radio and you
heard, oh, the plane was crashed to the World Trade Center. So I was
in the BQE
(Brooklyn Queens Expressway), so I could see the
World Trade Center. And I do see World Trade Center One was on smoke.
And then suddenly I saw the other plane, was hit into the other
buildings. You know, your tears is so really come down from you. We
grow up in the New York even then. I was not born in America, but
World Trade Center is our trademark of New York. You know the
feelings. It is look like they are part of my family member. And you
know the World Trade Center have so many people live there. You
completely have your tears coming down. And driving with the car, my
hand was shaking, you know, you don't know what you're going to do
anymore. So then later on I saw the building was collapse. So
fortunately I could able drove the car and park the car right in
front in the Brooklyn side near Manhattan Bridge. So I just park the
car anyplace I could. I walk to the bridge. Walk past the bridge and
come over to the city. So I bump into a lot of people, and the
police, they kept on telling me, 'You should go to the other
direction.' I said, 'No, no, no, I work in the hospital. I have
clinic in Chinatown. I have to report to St. Vincent's. I will go to
that direction.' So I went through the bridge, I went through to
make sure that all the pregnant mother is okay, my staff is okay.
Then I have a staff meeting. I left half the staff make sure the
patient would be safety to go home, someone to pick them up and some
transportation to go home. Then I took half of the staff, we walk to
the St. Vincent's to help. But it's a very, very touching moment when
we go to the St. Vincent area. Because we did not have any telephone
can communicate with the hospital. We have no way to know what's
going on. So we walk down to St. Vincent, about five or six block. We
saw the people wait on the line, everybody say they want to
volunteer, even they say, 'Take my blood, take my blood. I'm the O
plus.' You really, you in your heart, you cry for them. Who say that
in New York we don't help each other? This is moment you feel our New
York, how we really come together. We help each other. You know? And
they want to help. When we passed the line, some people was yelling
to me, 'How come we are waiting on the line now but they can go
before us?' We have to show the I.D. So we were at the hospital, we
want to go in to help. And the other thing was so sad. When I went
down to the emergency room, our whole hospital, we have every single
doctor, nurse, even the nurses’ aid, we have stretchers,
wheelchair, everything - standing there. The police blocked the whole
Sixth Avenue and Seventh Avenue just for ambulance. But no ambulance
arrive. One ambulance came, everybody was so happy. We are clapping
the hands, welcome to the ambulance. It's not we want to see the
people's injury. It's the thing is that we feel one or two life
still alive, we can help.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Why was the ambulance not coming in?</p>
<p>Chan:
Because is no life. No real live people they need to rush to the
hospital. When they dig out the person it's already too late. That's
what the sad part is. So when the ambulance get to the hospital that
mean we still have a life, have a chance.
</p>
<p>Q:
Today the whole St. Vincent's is located on 25 Elizabeth Street,
right?</p>
<p>Chan:
No, this is only the clinic. Our hospital still located on the
Seventh Avenue, on the 12th Street.
</p>
<p>Q:
Okay, so that area was not closed off, like Chinatown was on that
day.</p>
<p>Chan:
Right. But the main thing, we had a trauma center. We had the only
trauma center in lower Manhattan at that time. So all the trauma case
we are capable to handle. That's why all the critical trauma case
have to go to St. Vincent's.</p>
<p>Q:
The one on 12th Street.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. You know, and it's so touching, at that day we have a lot of
physician report to us from the other hospital as well, from some of
the private practice, every single St. Vincent's hospital, even where
they are, they report to duty, the staff is the same. Also the other
nursing staff, in the other hospital, they're off the duty, they will
come in to volunteer. So there is not really not much work for us to
do. And I do also remember we set up a family center, let the family
member to find the loved one in the World Trade Center. Are they
located in the hospital, or even where they are. And I was volunteer
there, and you heard so many sad story about it. Your heart cry for
it. Emotionally very difficult to deal with. Because you feel like
you are part of them. It's very difficulty time.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you try to come down to the clinic in Chinatown that day?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Chang:
I was in the clinic that day.</p>
<p>Q:
You were in the clinic.</p>
<p>Change:
Yeah. Our clinic was actually - I have other clinic near the World
Trade Center, Ground Zero, in St. Margaret House, okay. After 9/11
there is no way you can go to St. Margaret House. Even the St.
Margaret House, the clinic was closed. But I know that St.. Margaret
House was not evacuated. They have a lot of senior citizens live
there. So I did went to the Fifth Precinct and asked the police. I
say, 'I have a clinic down in St. Margaret House. We have 290 some
senior citizens that live in St. Margaret House. I just want to go
down, take a look. Is any way police can give me a lift, go down to
St. Margaret?' They did. So that's happening the day after. So I
could able to go down to St. Margaret House. St. Margaret House, that
night they don't have electricity, they don't have water, so later on
they do bring emergency generator, get power back, and then they used
the bottled water to give to rest of them. So I would stay in the St.
Margaret House for couple days. I sleep over also. Because in case
any resident gets sick, I could able to help. And also the St.
Margaret House, the staff is too exhausted. At least I will stay over
night, give them a break. They can get some sleep in the night time,
I will take over the night shift. So, because I think in the hospital
we do have a lot of volunteer and other people, but St. Margaret
would be in a place where they need me. So I did went to the St.
Margaret.</p>
<p>Q:
Is there anything in your personal background or professional
training that could have prepared you for such a day, such a
catastrophe?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, only thing can put it this way. I was nursing director in a
nursing home. By state requirement we do need to do a lot of
preparation for emergency. It's the same thing at St. Vincent's. We
need to do a lot of emergency preparation twice a year. I remember
once, in the nursing home, it happens that we have a major - the pipe
broken down. Complete water bust in to go to one of the patients'
units. I was called two o'clock in the morning, so I drove in the car
to the nursing home. We have to emergency evacuate all the residents,
move the residents from one unit to the other, to the auditorium, we
have to close down every single thing, make sure all the
electrician don't have electric shock from the water. So I think that
experience can let me to have some of idea how to handle emergency
most of the time. And also I'm the in service director, to teach the
nursing. So I always remember when I'm teaching my nursing staff, I
always say one thing, 'When the emergency thing happen, the worst
thing is panic. No matter what happened, you give one minute
yourself. Take a deep breath and think about what I will do next. And
it will be much better benefit than you panic.' So as instructor I
can tell the staff to do it. So I always remember myself what to do.
You know? I think that were helping me.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was this area like in Chinatown? I want to focus on St.
Vincent's on Elizabeth Street for a little while. Because much of
Chinatown was closed off. But smoke was very heavy here. Was there a
lot of people running into the clinic, not knowing what to do? What
was the scene like?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, our building is a commercial building, so really it doesn't
have a big sign. The people did not want it to. But the people was in
St. Margaret's House, because St. Margaret's was so close to Ground
Zero. They have actually excellent, excellent picture in St.
Margaret's House. You will see that all the dirt, the smoke, all the
things coming down, to the World Trade Center go down to the Fulton
Street. Even their glass roof is completely covered by all the dust.
And the way the people comes in, the way they are panicking and
yelling, it's such a tremendous scene. It is very tragedy, I would
say. But only thing is, you do feel our New York. We go through, we
work together, we help together, and I was - you know, every single
time can remember when you was in the family center, we have so much
young people and comes in, offer you the food, offer you the drink,
offer you the comfort. And, you know, why we say that our young
generation is not like our old generation? I don't think so. And then
9/11 time, you really think the new generation, they do have a heart
to help each other. I was so proud of them. Really so proud.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you surprise yourself in any way of how you handled things that
day?</p>
<p>Chan:
I think in my professional attitude I'm not really surprising at
all. If I could participate, I could do it, why not? Okay. Everybody
have to help.
</p>
<p>
Q: How is St. Vincent's funded? Is this a private or -</p>
<p>Chan:
It's a Catholic organization. It's funded by Catholic Charities. In
the 9/11 time we do discharge most of the patients in the hospital.
We evacuate the whole hospital for the 9/11 victim to go in for
admission, and also we do empty a couple of floor for the policemen
and fire department people. You know, have some bed to take a rest,
or take a shower. It was - our whole hospital, we really put in for
the 9/11 time. We are very well prepared for the things for the -
there still is so many sad - a lot of our staff after that do need
some of emotional counseling, because we saw a lot of tragedy thing
happen. We saw a lot of - we heard a lot of sad story.</p>
<p>Q:
Is there any one particular patient that has left a deep impression
on you?
</p>
<p>Chan:
I would say there is - when I'm in the family center I met a couple
of family member, they comes in, they were even crying. There is a
young gentleman, he say his father was wheelchair bound. He went into
the meeting in the Windows of the World on that morning, with his
girlfriend. And since then they never heard from him. And I heard the
other story - a tourist guy comes in with the whole family, supposed
to go up to the World Trade Center Observation Deck. So they were not
being open until nine o'clock. So they daughter says she is hungry so
he went to buy some breakfast for them. And the time he come back, he
cannot get in anymore. So he never find his wife and his daughter.
And we heard so many story. They say - someone told me they just
spoke to his husband before the building collapse. So I guess the
husband call them, say he's on his way to come get to the elevator,
get out the building. And next thing they heard is the building
collapse. You know, you heard so many tragedy going on, and this
never ending. Never ending. If you want to ask the story you just go
on and on and on. And so many.
</p>
<p>Q:
And how long did you stay at the hospital?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Chan:
We stayed there at least until the hospital say we have too many
volunteer, we have to take shifts. Because we don't have a space for
the volunteers to sleep, we don't even have a space for the volunteer
to go to the bathroom. So that means so many volunteers. The food is
not the problem, because we are getting a lot of donation comes in.
So they tell us to go home, leave the
cell phone number or
the beeper number, and the can reach us. So I think we left 11
o'clock, the night time.</p>
<p>Q:
Of that day.</p>
<p>Chan:
Of that day. And some staff left around nine o'clock, some left
around seven o'clock. But we are standby. And next day I was in the
hospital nine o'clock, and then because we still able to reach all
the patient in the clinic, we call the patient and told the patient,
'Don't come in, because the building was closed.' We don't want the
patient to come in to the Chinatown and find out the building is
closed. Have to guide the patient what to do. If they are sick they
can go to the St. Vincent Hospital in the main campus. And after
then, I do went back to the clinic. The clinic, I cannot get into. So
I went to the police station. I went to the St. Margaret House.</p>
<p>[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO; BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE]
</p>
<p>Q:
Obviously September 11th was very tough for many people. Even though
you personally were not at the World Trade Center, as a nurse, did
you receive any therapy or counseling afterwards based on what you
saw?</p>
<p>Chan:
Actually, I set a couple of counseling meetings for the people who
go through the 9/11. 'Specially the people in St. Margaret House. The
elderly patients, their window is facing World Trade Center. They see
the whole thing actually happen. I remember one of the residents told
me, she say that she lost her taste in her mouth. She cannot sleep
and she cannot eat for a week. You know, they really doesn't think
about the traumatized by the 9/11, they saw it as something wrong.
But I do set up a couple of workshop, I do have a psychiatrist went
to the St. Margaret House, we give workshop in English, Chinese, and
the Spanish as well. And give them the opportunity to speak up and
talk what in their mind. So some of the older even say they cannot
look at the window anymore, because every morning, the first thing
they get up, they look at the window, they saw the World Trade Center
was stooding there. Now, they said, when they open the window, the
two buildings gone. It looks like something they lost. The symbol
they lost. And it is a tough time. So we did a lot of counseling.
Because the main thing, I was sick for a week
for the whole
counseling, the workshop. So I'm one of the participants in here.
This looks like sort of like one of my program. I'm saying, well,
it's the other residents we do go for.</p>
<p>Q:
Would you say that most of the patients at St. Vincent's here in
Chinatown are Chinese?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. We should say that it's close to 95% is Chinese. Lately we do
have some Russian, Spanish, Irish, and Italian patients that come as
well.</p>
<p>Q:
Give me a kind of idea of what type of Chinese make up your patients.
Are they recent immigrants, a combination of all people with or
without health insurance -
</p>
<p>Chan:
We do have - because the new immigrant change - we do have a lot of
new immigrant. We close to have 60% is a new immigrant, okay? And we
do have some of old immigrant as well. And because we are the clinic
in Chinatown for twenty-six years now, we do have actually third
generation. The grandma was give birth to the daughter in here, now
the daughters give birth to the babies in our clinic, in the hospital
as well. So a lot of it look like family types, and actually a lot of
it is a patient by the word of mouth. Before we all know our
communities. A lot of people from Canton, China side on Hong Kong.
Now is a lot of Fujianese. So a lot of patients is Fujianese now. So
in the beginning our language in the clinic is Cantonese, and
Toishan. Funny thing, I learn Toishan in America. I remember always
my first working experience in Chinatown. I'm Shanghainese myself. I
speak Shanghainese, I speak Mandarin, I speak Cantonese. I have a
Toishanese patient come to me and say, "You doesn't speak
Chinese." I say, "Look at her. What do you mean, I don't
speak Chinese? I speak three dialects." And they told me, oh no,
no, no - your Chinese is not Chinese. Toishanese is Chinese. So,
"Okay, give me six months. I'm going to learn Toishanese."
I did. So nowaday is no more Toishanese used in New York. Then you
need to learn Mandarin, and Fujianese. So now the clinic, we spend
most of the time speaking the Mandarin now. That is the change of the
new immigration population.</p>
<p>Q:
And do you accept patients without health insurance?
</p>
<p>
Chan: Yes, we do. Because we are Catholic charity hospital. We
usually charge a small amount, according to the income or the
percentage. We charge very low fee for the patients if you really
need the surgery, or you need some help, we always have charity money
to help. You know, we cannot do one hundred percent, but at least we
will try out best to do seventy or eighty percent. We do have some
patients have a severe illness take place. We do help them have a
surgery done, have everything done, okay? And we also have what we
call the Immigration Program. We helping the illegal immigrant who
have AIDS, we do help him tremendously, you know.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did September 11th result in any policy or structural changes at the
hospital?</p>
<p>Chan:
I think the only thing we would say we do change is a lot of thing we
get more involved with emergency preparation. Hospital is more
suitable for those kind of tragedies, the thing happening. And also
we set up a command system in the hospital in case anything happen,
we always will commanding to other satellite clinic, how to guide
them, what to do. And also we are under the construction of to be
built a new emergency room in St. Vincent. The emergency room
actually was have idea by former mayor Guiliani. We were going to
call Rudolph Guiliani Emergency Room, and we will be very well
prepared with chemistry attack, with all kinds of attack on New York
City. So now is the construction will take place, is going on.
Hopefully we can be finished on the 2005. And we will be very, very
well prepared for any kind of emergency.</p>
<p>Q:
Anthrax or -</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.
</p>
<p>Q:
I'm going to move forward to 2003 - this year. There is yet another
medical emergency - SARS. Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome. Being
that this is Chinatown, where lots of travels or family from China,
from Asia, to this area, how was the clinic handling SARS?</p>
<p>Chan:
We do have a lot of patients is getting very panicked, okay? But
some of the patient is very good. We even told the patient, "You
was recently traveling from China. You have a
temperature,
high temperature, and you was coughing." We would guide the
patient to go to the emergency room because we have an isolation set
up.
</p>
<p>[Interview
interrupted by a knock on door. A short, whispered conversation. <b><u>NEEC
TO EDIT OUT]</u></b></p>
<p>Q:
Sorry, we're going to back up. You were talking about SARS, if a
patient came in with a high fever.</p>
<p>Chan:
Right. We would right away put the patient on the mask. Guide the
patient to our negative pressure room. In our clinic we do have
isolation negative pressure so the air would not bring back to the
clinic. Then we will examine the patient. If it really is a suspicion
case we, right away, we would put the patient in the ambulance or the
taxi cab driver and put the patient to the emergency room right away.
We would get the last contacts for the patient, to contact the other
peoples. So as soon as the patient left, we would clean up the room,
clean up everything, by the bleach. Just get a last chance. And the
patients are very well educated about what SARS look like. You don't
have to be panicked. It's not look like anybody must have SARS when
they come from China. It sometime could be happens when you come back
from China you a little bit too overtired from traveling day and
night, up in day, change, sometimes it could happen you catch a
little minor cold. Because at that time still is a couple thing that
happen. Is the hay fever time, and it's allergy time, and also is
cold, a lot of people get cold at that time. So it's a very similar
diagnosis to SARS. We don't have really be so panicked. I always
remember a story. I get a call from the bank. The teller is getting
panicked. They touched the money. They'll say "The patient
touched the money. And the teller did get money in contact with the
SARS." So we have to educate them. It's not really that kind of
cause infection. For the droplet to cause infection, because droplet
could be dead within couple hours. So would not look like stay in the
money would cause infection to the teller in the bank.</p>
<p>Q:
When were you first aware of SARS?</p>
<p>
Chan: Well, because I read Chinese paper. Every day. So as soon as
we heard of things happening in Hong Kong, and in the China, what
happening, we know that because we do have a lot of people traveling
from Hong Kong, for this kind of thing we have to do some
preparation. So actually, we are before the travel alert come on the
place. We just alert the patient, if you have high fever, coughing,
and recent traveling call us right away, okay? Then, later on, the
Department of Health came down with guidelines, so we all put up the
signs and get everything done.</p>
<p>Q:
And how many cases did you handle?</p>
<p>Chan:
Luckily I think we don't have any case. It was very lucky for our
part. And we have only - we see a couple of patients call. We do
guide the patient to go to emergency room. And we ask the patient,
"Are you going to the emergency room?" Then we call the
emergency room, let the emergency room well prepare - the patient
will arrival, don't let the patient wait for the emergency room,
direct guide them to the isolation room. And a couple of the patient
was stay in the hospital in the isolation room until our specimen of
the saliva come back and the x-ray film is confirm they are not a
SARS patient. So, and we did not have any panic case. None.
</p>
<p>Q:
And Chinatown was considerably quieter during that time. I remember
coming, seeing the streets were not as crowded as it normally was. As
a clinic, as a hospital, did you distribute information to try to
educate people, to try to calm people down?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. We did. A lot of patient, we usually have a phone system. They
will call us and we will call the patient. Because we do the follow
up. We build a different relationship. They look like a family
member. Anything they have something go wrong, they would call us. So
even they would, "Oh, I heard about the SARS. What you suggest I
going to do?" So we told them in the phone. And some of them
even, when the patient comes in, "Well, my kid go to school.
Someone at school may have the coughing. I cannot get a mask." I
do order a lot of mask and sometime we do give to the patient - "Take
some mask home for the kids to use in the school, public, whatever."
Then they feel like, it's not for them to use. Sometimes the kids
have a cough. Okay. So it would be much better to protect them
causing infection to the other family members.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Are you at any time concerned that you might be jeopardizing your
own health?</p>
<p>Chan:
That was never in my mind. I remember one incident happened when I
was in the Union. I was on the twenty-second. We have a patient
completely collapsed in the elevator. One of the staff was with the
patient in the elevator so she know I'm on twenty-second floor. Right
away she pushed the elevator to twenty-second floor. And right away
she yell, "Selina, I have patient collapse in the elevator."
I went in the elevator. I didn't give it second thought, I did mouth
to mouth resuscitation on the patient, okay? We did the CPR for the
patient until the ambulance arrival. So after then the people - the
doctor, even, ask me, "Do you want to take the patient's blood
for the AIDS, or the hepatitis?" I said, "Look, I already
did it already. I also helped the patient. Saved the patient. At
least the patient did not die on my hands." Later on the patient
die, but not then. As long as patient get safety to go to hospital,
get all the treatment. If I pick my profession as a nurse, just want
to help the people, I don't think to jeopardize my life or not is not
a question that would be in my mind. Sure, I need to protect myself.
But sometimes, when emergency things happen, you cannot think that
much.
</p>
<p>Q:
Having worked in Chinatown as long as you have, do you think there
is enough medical facilities in Chinatown to meet the needs?</p>
<p>Chan:
I wish to have room expanding, okay? I think the major problem in
Chinatown now, we do have a lot of private physician, have a
specialty, but a lot of look like Medicaid, HMO, Family Health Plus,
because the reimbursement rate is so low a lot of private of doctors
is not accepting. And now if the low income family, they need to go
to see a specialty, where are they going to turn? For asking for
help? I think we do have tremendous room in Chinatown to open up some
of the specialty that will accept low income insurance. To help the
low income and a new immigrant community people. I always believe we
still have room. And also I do believe the other thing - competition
make it good. Make good for us to give for a community better
service. And let a patient be more aware to have a one more selection
of the hospital to go and the doctor to choice. And it make us all
growing together.</p>
<p>
Q: When do you think you will retire?</p>
<p>Chan:
I really want to - it's always my goal - I want to have, either have
assisted living or a nursing home in lower Manhattan for Asian,
Chinese. I still will try, if even I'm going to retire in my age, I
still want to give some of my time to the community to help as a
volunteer.
</p>
<p>Q:
It's obvious that you have given a lot of your time and your life
to nursing, and to the community. Any regrets that you didn't set
aside time to start your own family?</p>
<p>Chan:
Well, sure, sometimes when you go home you feel lonely. You will say
that this isn't right. But you cannot look back. If you look back -
I'm not fortune teller. If I know this kind of thing or that kind of
thing happens, I wouldn't do that. But it's not right. If you live in
the past world, you never will be happy. Okay? You always looking
forward, in the future. Yes, I picked that movement, my fate came out
that way already. I cannot change back. Just looking forward. If I
can help some community people, help some Chinese, I'm happy. That's
it. The most important thing, you feel yourself - I happy. I valuable
to yourself. I'm not looking for something in return. No. If you
give, you give. That's it.</p>
<p>Q:
Would it be safe to say you probably will stay in New York for the
rest of your days?</p>
<p>Chan:
I will stay in New York, maybe. You know, if I really become I'm so
old, I may go back to China or Hong Kong. Because it would be stay
with more our same culture people that were helping, if my health is
not there. Great, for myself to handle myself in New York. And
sometime maybe it's time for me to go back to China. No matter what
happen, my roots still in China. We still believe sometime will be
better to go back to China to wait for the end of your life. You
know, just is the thinking.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think only Chinese people feel that way? You have been away
since you were nine. That's most of your life. And yet you think you
might want to end up where you started.</p>
<p>
Chan: Yeah. Sometimes you feel like it, you know? You do feel like
it. I think it's not only Chinese. Some of the other American people
have the same kind of feelings. Talking to them, that's how the way
they feel. You know, this is only a trip. Every time when the car go
by and the thing change, sometimes you will always change your mind,
you know? You could not say it's definitely that's the way I want to
do in my life. In the meantime it's how I feel when you went back to
China, you saw the way the China was change. You just be so proud of
Chinese, the way we catch up for them nowadays.</p>
<p>Q:
We have talked about many things. Is there anything you want to
share that I have not asked you?</p>
<p>Chan:
I don't think so. You ask quite very well. And also I only believe
the other thing. There's maybe one thing I need to say. In our
Chinese community - I know maybe the other communities the same - we
really need to encourage the young people to come back to the
community. A lot of young people get a good education, high
education, they move to the American community. They don't come back.
So we need a new blood in this community. When the time is the old
generation retires, with a new generation to help this community, to
build the community, to guide the community. So I think that would be
my thinking I really like to see. So that's why I must volunteer
myself in what we call the Chinese-American Social Service and
Health. We try to do some scholarships for the new generation to
study social work -- bilingual social work. That what we really need
tremendous in Chinatown. To come back to Chinatown, to help the
Chinese.
</p>
<p>Q:
This project will be on the Internet for ten years, and then the
Library of Congress, so hopefully some young people will hear,
perhaps, your story, and be inspired, and then come back. Thank you
very much for your time.</p>
<p>Chan:
Thank you for the invite.</p>
<p>Q:
This is Lan Trinh for the MoCA Documentation Project, and I've been
speaking with Selina Chan of St. Vincent's in Chinatown. Thank you
very much.</p>
<p>Chan:
Thank you.</p>
<p>[END
OF SESSION}</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕今天是12月15日。我在St.Vincent's Hospital採訪陳熬娣。請用中英文講一下您的姓名和年齡。</p>
<p>陳﹕我叫陳熬娣。我于1950年出生﹐現年50歲。[中文又重複一遍]</p>
<p>問﹕您不用每句話都用中文再講一遍﹐我只是想知道您的中文名字。</p>
<p>陳﹕知道了。</p>
<p>問﹕請問您是哪裡人﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我本人在上海出生﹐後來移民到香港。我差不多是在香港長大的。我于1975年來美國。</p>
<p>問﹕您去香港時有多大﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕九歲。我是在共產黨解放中國後出生的。所以﹐當時去香港還不是太難。因為那個時候我父親在香港﹐我們申請簽証去了香港。</p>
<p>問﹕那在1959年﹐您是合法去香港的﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我是合法離開中國﹐但不是合法進入香港的。就好像是歷史記載的那些船民﹐我當時也是差不多的情況。我合法離開上海後先到了澳門﹐然後再坐船到的香港。</p>
<p>
問﹕您父親為什麼當時在香港﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕他是船員。</p>
<p>問﹕船員﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。他在船上工作。所以﹐在當時﹐他一直都在香港那邊﹐經常跑美國航線。他後來沒有再回中國。我是在共產黨奪取政權之後出生的。</p>
<p>問﹕從1949年共產黨上臺算起﹐您當時已經滿十歲了。您在中國的生活怎麼樣﹖您是否還記得﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我還有印象。你知道﹐童年的生活總是令人留念的。實際上﹐我們那時在中國生活得還不錯﹐因為我們有錢﹐而且父親經常從香港寄來一些物品。所以﹐我們的生活還是比較舒適的﹐並不像一般人想象中那麼糟。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼﹐您父親總是在外跑船﹐不經常在上海。</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕那他為什麼不想回上海﹐卻想讓全家離開上海﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕主要是因為他當時在一家荷蘭船公司做事。如果他辭掉那份工作回上海的話﹐他必須要在上海找工作﹐但這不是那麼容易。這是原因之一。其次﹐我的其他親戚﹐比如我表兄妹﹐姑姑﹐舅舅都移民去了香港。所以﹐我們也決定離開上海去香港。</p>
<p>
問﹕所以不是因為政治原因﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕不是﹐不是﹐跟那個完全沒有關係。</p>
<p>問﹕您家人在1949年之後沒有任何麻煩嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕沒有。也許我們算是幸運的。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼﹐當時您全家﹐即您自己﹐您的母親﹐和所有的兄弟姐妹都去了香港﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕當時只有我母親和我。我們到了香港之後﹐我母親才生了我弟弟。所以﹐我們家只有我們姐弟兩個人。</p>
<p>問﹕你們是坐船去香港的嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您能不能談一下您去香港的經過﹖你們有沒有花錢﹖是怎樣的過程﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕可以。實際上﹐我們一共試了兩次。第一次﹐我們躲在船艙裡。因為船長有毒癮﹐他忙於吸毒﹐沒有專心開船。後來﹐我們被警察抓住送到澳門﹐被關了一夜。第二天﹐我父親到了澳門把我們保了出來。所以﹐第二次我們花了更多的錢找了一個可靠的船長﹐最後逃到了香港。我還記得當時整船人都被困在船艙裡﹐很多人因為暈船都吐了。那時我只有九歲﹐而且我母親有六個月的身孕﹐行動很不方便﹐我要攙著她走。我們要從山的一面爬到另一面﹐然後轉船才到的香港。</p>
<p>
問﹕您剛纔講的是在澳門的事情。當時船上大概有多少人﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕大概有一百多人。我們到香港時﹐被警察截住。當時﹐我﹐我母親和另外兩個上了年紀的夫婦走在一起﹐我們一共是四個人。警察通常會問幾個人中年齡最小的人事情。當時我只有九歲﹐我們被警察截住的時候﹐我回答﹐“我是從香港來的。”他們就問我﹐“你去哪裡﹖”我說﹐“我去祖父母那裡吃午飯。”於是﹐警察就放我們走了。這是1959年的事情。所以﹐我們平安到達我父親那裡。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時不是只講上海話嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我在澳門待了一個月等船期去香港﹐所以我在澳門學了些廣東話。</p>
<p>問﹕您是否還記得您從上海到澳門再從澳門到香港花了多少錢路費嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕記得﹐當時我們花了差不多有3,000塊錢。在1959年﹐那是一大筆錢。</p>
<p>問﹕三千美金﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕不﹐是港幣。但還是不少錢﹐當時是1959年。</p>
<p>問﹕所以您基本上是偷渡去的﹐不是合法去的。</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕你們到香港時﹐您父親在那邊已經有房了嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是單元房﹐是為我們準備的。</p>
<p>
問﹕您當時有沒有身份﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕沒有合法身份。但後來有規定﹐在香港住一段時間後﹐可以申請居住身份。所以﹐我基本上是在香港上的學﹐一直上到高中。後來﹐我上了香港的護士學校。</p>
<p>問﹕那時您父親還是繼續跑船﹐經常不在香港﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是和您的母親住在一起﹐後來有了您弟弟﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您的其他親戚呢﹖他們都去了哪裡﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我不知道。我的很多表兄妹都在香港﹐還有一個在上海﹐我的姥爺姥姥在寧波﹐是我母親的父母親。所以﹐我們還有回中國探望他們。</p>
<p>問﹕您在那個時候懂不懂發生的一切﹖您害怕嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕不害怕。這也許和我的性格有關。我總是希望能有些新的經歷﹐了解些新的事情。所以﹐對於我來講﹐一切都發生得很自然﹐沒有什麼好怕的。就連我們坐的船的船長也說﹐“像你年紀這樣小的女孩﹐你已經是很勇敢了。你一點都不害怕。”當時船上很多人都很害怕﹐而我卻好像沒事一樣。實際上﹐在我們爬山的時候﹐我和我母親走散了。因為她有身孕﹐行動很不方便。其他人總是催我們快走﹐<br>
所以我只好跟著人群走﹐走得非常快﹐後來我一回頭 - 我已經找不著我母親了。我又不能再回去找我母親﹐我是後來在那個島的另一面才又見著她的。</p>
<p>問﹕這是在澳門﹐你們先上的岸﹐你們的船靠在一邊﹐然後你們要到另一邊﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時還很小﹐您認為您是哪裡來的這麼多勁兒﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕正如我剛纔所講﹐我總是喜歡冒險﹐想看一看世界的另一面是什麼樣子的。當我在上海的時候﹐我總是在想我父親在香港的生活是什麼樣的。我記得我們先坐火車去的廣州﹐然後需要換車去澳門。當我父親看到我母親行動艱難後﹐他跟我說﹐“我看你們不會安全到香港的﹐不如我給你們買回程票﹐你們回上海吧。”我跟我父親講﹐“不。無論發生什麼事情﹐我都要去香港。我要看一下香港是什麼樣子﹐也算是圓了我的夢。”於是我父親說﹐“我要等到你晚上睡著後把你綁起來扔到車上去。”我說﹐“那好﹐那我一晚上就不睡覺了。”我真的就沒睡。我就坐了一個晚上直到第二天上了去澳門的火車。我想這就是我的性格。</p>
<p>問﹕為什麼您父親不能回上海接你們呢﹖當時他能這樣做嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕因為坐火車去上海需要太長的時間﹐但他有到廣州接我們﹐然後我們一起去的澳門。他安排了所有的事情﹐幫我們在澳門訂了旅館﹐之後他就回香港了。</p>
<p>問﹕在1959年﹐香港是不是有很多上海人﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>
問﹕很多大陸人﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕差不多都是非法入境的﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕那您當時能不能上學呢﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕可以﹐我有上學。但我開始的時候還是比較辛苦﹐因為我的廣東話還不好。而且﹐我一點英文都不懂﹐所以第一年學得比較吃力。但到第二年就基本上沒有什麼問題了。</p>
<p>問﹕您上的是什麼學校﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是一所非常小的私立學校﹐是在香港。那個學校入學非常容易﹐學校也只是一層樓。不像現在的教育系統那麼健全。</p>
<p>問﹕是不是所雙語學校﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕學校裡有英文課﹐但不多。大部份的課都是用中文教授的﹐或廣東話。</p>
<p>問﹕那您基本上是通過上英文課學的英文﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的﹐學的也不是很多。</p>
<p>問﹕您和您的母親在香港哪裡住﹖</p>
<p>
陳﹕我們住在九龍﹐紅磡附近。</p>
<p>問﹕紅磡﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的﹐離車站比較近 - 但後來我們就搬到觀塘去了。</p>
<p>問﹕您多久能見您父親一次﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕他每三個月回家一次﹐當他的船靠香港的時候。他那時還在那家船公司做。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼﹐您全家都是靠您父親的資助﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您母親有沒有工作﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕沒有。我母親身體不好。每個月都是我父親賺錢﹐母親卻要花錢住醫院。她總是不舒服。我待在家裡照顧我弟弟﹐有的時候我們有保姆﹐有的時候沒有。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時的生活怎麼樣﹖您在香港適不適應﹖您喜歡香港嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕喜歡。</p>
<p>問﹕您沒有什麼不習慣的嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕沒有。我這個人非常容易適應新的環境。所以﹐我一點問題都沒有。</p>
<p>
問﹕您現在是護士。您是什麼時候想到要從醫的呢﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕應該是從我母親住院的時候開始的。那些護士們沒有把她照顧好。當時我在上高中﹐我有跟她講。我說﹐“你不要以為治療病人有什麼了不起的。等過幾年後﹐我要讓你知道好護士是什麼樣子的。”這就是我為什麼下定決心要上護士學校。</p>
<p>問﹕您是否覺得您想自己照顧您的母親﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。但不幸的是我母親已經過世了。</p>
<p>問﹕在您畢業之前﹖那麼您是在香港上的護士學校﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是不是很快就喜歡這個專業了﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕一開始的時候還不是。我記得﹐因為我姓“陳﹐”按照字母ABC順序排列﹐我總是排在班裡的第一個。所以﹐每次一有什麼新的機會﹐或者開始打仗需要派護士上前線﹐或需要去什麼地方﹐我總是排在第一個。我們管我們上的那所香港護士學校叫“Nethersole”。當時﹐他們叫我PTS﹐意思是新來的人。三個月後﹐他們把我安排到GYN組。在此之後﹐他們讓我去兒科上夜班。我們只是做些洗尿布﹑換尿布和喂嬰兒的事情。在兒科之後﹐我又被調到手術室。當我第一次進入手術室的時候﹐我完全地驚呆了﹐都不知道是怎麼會事﹐儘管他們跟我講﹐“這是個盲腸炎的手術。”我看了一下病人 - 盲腸在哪裡﹖因為我當時還沒有上解剖課﹐我不知道是怎樣的情形。在開始的時候﹐我們的確很不適應。然後我就問我自己﹐這份工作到底適不適合我﹖<br>
但我已經答應我母親要做護士﹐去照顧其他的人﹐所以﹐我最終還是挺過來了。不是那麼容易﹐但時間長了也就習慣了。</p>
<p>問﹕您沒有想過當醫生嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕當我來美國的時候﹐我的確有一些選擇。我申請到醫學院的獎學金。但問題是﹐我剛剛來美國的時候要確保我父親能辭掉那份船上的工作待在家裡。我要寄錢給我父親和弟弟。所以﹐經濟條件不允許我讀書。即使我拿到了獎學金﹐我父親和弟弟怎麼辦﹖我畢業之前﹐他們不能餓著等死。所以﹐有些時候必須要權衡一下。我本人無所謂﹐做護士也可以和當醫生一樣幫助別人。</p>
<p>問﹕您為什麼決定要來美國﹖是75年﹐對嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是。我來美國的主要是因為我舅舅在美國。還有﹐我不想待在共產主義國家。當時有傳聞說是共產黨要到香港來﹐那個時候大家都這麼講。於是﹐我在美國的舅舅托了一個醫生把我辦了過來。因此﹐我就想試一試﹐於是乎就決定過來了。</p>
<p>問﹕但香港直到1997年才回歸大陸﹐是25年之後的事情。</p>
<p>陳﹕不錯﹐但那時沒人知道究竟是什麼情況。當時他們想把我送到倫敦上護士學校繼續深造。但英國人不崇尚平等權利﹐我卻嚮往平等權利。在英國﹐只有最下等的人才會跟護士接觸﹐就連病房助理都不和學護士的學生講話。這不是我想要的生活。跟倫敦比起來﹐我想我的性格更適合來美國。所以﹐我打定主意要來美國。</p>
<p>
問﹕您為什麼會對英國人有這樣的印象﹖您當時在香港受的是英國人的教育嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我上的護士學校採用的是英國的教育系統。我因此對英國人的工作方式有些感觸。</p>
<p>問﹕很好。</p>
<p>陳﹕是啊。</p>
<p>問﹕是誰決定讓您一個人過來﹐您父親和弟弟留在中國的﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕主要是因為我申請的是專業簽証﹐而不是家庭簽証。所以﹐我父親和弟弟不能一起來。我舅舅當時還是新移民﹐還不能申請我父親來。而且﹐我父親當時已經老了。他那時已經有60歲了﹐所以﹐他還是留在香港比較好。我不想讓他再在船上做了﹐因為總不在家的話跟家人都疏遠了。因此﹐我決定來美國﹐而讓我父親待在家裡照看我弟弟。</p>
<p>問﹕您75年到的美國哪裡﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕紐約。</p>
<p>問﹕您舅舅也在紐約嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。從那以後﹐我再也沒有離開紐約。(笑)</p>
<p>問﹕您對紐約的第一印象是什麼﹖</p>
<p>
陳﹕有趣的是﹐當我第一次到JFK機場的時候﹐我的飛機是早晨5點鐘到的。我的航班早了一個小時﹐但我舅舅以為是晚了一個小時。所以﹐他們沒有來機場接我。其他下飛機的人都走了﹐只剩下我一個。而且﹐我在上飛機之前帶了兩件行李。我的一個朋友在機場工作﹐他跟我說﹐“我幫你把行李放到行李艙。”但我到JFK機場時卻找不到那兩件行李。那裡面有很多東西都是我的一些朋友托我帶給他們在美國的親人的。所以﹐對於我來講﹐如果只是我自己的東西丟了倒無所謂。但別人的東西也一起丟了﹐我就比較緊張了。所以﹐我當時非常緊張。整個機場空無一人。我只看到一個黑人搬運工在打掃衛生。我變得越來越緊張。但幸好我身上還有些零錢﹐於是﹐我就問那個搬運工﹐“附近有沒有地方打電話﹖”他指給我看電話亭在哪裡﹐我於是給我舅舅打了個電話。他們說要等半個小時後才能到。所以﹐我就一個人在機場又等了一個小時﹐快一個小時。我很緊張。我對自己講﹐“難道這就是美國﹖”我從來沒有在香港遇到這樣的情況。我丟了行李﹐不能見到我的親人﹐這個地方又這麼大。我坐在那裡﹐一個人都不認識﹐的確很緊張。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時講英文嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕會講一點兒﹐但主要是緊張。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時是25歲﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時有沒有畢業﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕已經畢業了。</p>
<p>問﹕但到了美國您需要再考證書﹖</p>
<p>
陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼﹐您坐在機場裡。在您的親人接您之前﹐您有沒有在想美國會是什麼樣子的﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我這個人平時考慮的不多﹐只是付諸於行動。有時﹐如果想得太具體﹐計劃得太詳盡﹐反而會發現實際生活同計劃中的並不一樣。你一旦有了一個目標﹐專著地去盡力爭取實現自己的目標﹐反而會收到好的的效果。相反﹐你如果只是在精心計劃﹐你會有很多失望的。我只是相信一件事 - 我要來美國﹐我要努力工作﹐在美國調整好我的生活﹐扎扎實實地做事情。</p>
<p>問﹕您來這裡的時候﹐有沒有想到要待長久﹖還是想上完學積累些工作經驗後再回香港﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我的確有想過回香港。也許再過十年﹐我想看一下那邊發展得怎麼樣。當時﹐我有過回香港的想法。但那只是我開始時候的想法 - 只是想來美國看看這邊的情況。</p>
<p>問﹕但您沒有再回去發展。</p>
<p>陳﹕沒有。</p>
<p>問﹕您有沒有再回上海呢﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕有。</p>
<p>問﹕什麼時候回去的﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕幾年前回去的。我想那是我第一次決定回香港和上海看一看。我總是有回香港﹐但回上海還是這麼多年來的頭一次。<br>
我在俄羅斯旅行的時候﹐一些人看到我說﹐“你是中國人﹐中國怎麼樣﹖”我說﹐“我也在問自己這個問題﹐這是個好問題。我的確不知道中國現在是什麼樣子。”所以﹐在從俄羅斯回來之後﹐我想﹐“我最好回一趟中國﹐去其他國家之前要先看一下中國。至少我能知道我自己的國家是什麼樣子的。”因此﹐我第二年就去了上海﹑北京﹑杭州和廣州。我一共去了三個星期﹐在中國好好地轉了一下。那是1984年。</p>
<p>問﹕在您離開34年之後。噢﹐不對﹐您是1959年離開的。</p>
<p>陳﹕59年。大約是25年之後。</p>
<p>問﹕您回去後的感覺如何﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我感覺﹐無論發生了什麼事情﹐這永遠是我的祖國。我的確感到很激動。我回去看了一下我出生長大的地方。我姑姑們還都在上海﹐她們到賓館看我。還有﹐在那個時候﹐中國還沒有像現在這麼開放。他們還沒有公共廁所﹐這是我很不習慣的。我到我姑姑家裡﹐我就是用不慣那兒的廁所。我必須要回到賓館。但是﹐我感到我在家鄉還是非常非常受歡迎的。這種感覺是誰也奪不走的。</p>
<p>問﹕您在香港是不是也有同感﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕在這裡呢﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕在這裡﹐主要是因為我大多時候是給美國機構工作。不論條件怎麼樣﹐我總是感覺到受歧視。通常 - 我記得我在ILGWU(International Ladies Garment Workers Union)工會康復中心工作的時候﹐<br>
那裡有很多國家的人。即使在那個時候﹐我都在負責90多個醫生的病人。他們看到我後會說﹐“你不像一般的中國人。”我於是問他們﹐“一般的中國人是什麼意思﹖他們腦門上是不是有字﹖是不是無論你講什麼我都聽你的﹖”我說﹐“對不起﹐這是不對的。”</p>
<p>問﹕這是在七八十年代﹖這是什麼時候的事情﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕七幾年。七十年代末。他們總是認為﹐中國人比較懦弱。無論別人說什麼﹐我們總是點頭稱道﹐不管他們說的是對還是錯。對不起﹐這不是事實。我更加相信平等。如果別人給我一些條條框框讓我去遵守﹐這是不對的。我也同樣有權利發表我自己的意見﹐為我自己辯護。你是專業人士﹐我也是專業人士。那麼﹐為什麼你會在騎在我的脖子上向我發號施令﹖一味地讓我聽從他們的調遣﹐這是不可能的。這就是我的看法。</p>
<p>問﹕您是經常遇到這種情況﹐還是偶爾有人這麼說您﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕應該是開始幾年有這種情況。一段時間之後﹐他們也了解我了﹐也就不再這樣了。</p>
<p>問﹕您認為這是不是因為當時這邊還沒有這麼多的亞洲人做護士﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕可能是做護士這一行的亞洲人本來就不多﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是亞洲人不多﹐也是因為沒有那麼多的中國人會挺身而出為自己辯護。所以﹐跟現在相比﹐那個時候的情況大不一樣。</p>
<p>
問﹕您有沒有想過重返香港回到中國人的社會﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我想是沒有。因為我應該比其他的中國人幸運﹐我能講英文。的確﹐我如果回香港﹐生活沒有這裡艱難。但在這裡﹐我至少可以捍衛中國人的權利。我能夠為他們鳴不平﹐為他們爭取更多的利益。所以說﹐如果每個人都為自己考慮﹐那麼這個社會就不會有什麼發展了。</p>
<p>問﹕您在紐約上了幾年的學﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕主要的問題是我要寄錢回香港資助我父親。我只是在晚上和週末上課﹐沒有在正規的學校受過培訓。剛開始的時候﹐你說過這邊的新移民不容易﹐過去也是一樣。我在衣廠做工﹐也當過保姆。要是能有錢賺﹐我就會去做﹐只要不是搶劫或是做什麼非法的事情。我也以此為榮﹐因為我用我辛辛苦苦賺來的錢來養活我父親和弟弟。</p>
<p>問﹕您在紐約和誰住在一起﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我租了一間房﹐自己一個人住﹐在皇后區。</p>
<p>問﹕是您現在住的地方嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕不是﹐我後來又搬了幾次家。</p>
<p>問﹕現在您在哪裡住﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕還在皇后區﹐緬街。</p>
<p>問﹕噢﹐發拉盛。</p>
<p>
陳﹕是發拉盛。</p>
<p>問﹕是個中國人的聚居區。</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是不是後來又在唐人街的St. Vincent's工作﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我在ILGWU的工會康復中心做了十六年半的臨床主任﹐因為我的CEO﹐是個猶太人﹐對我非常非常好﹐就像我的親父親一樣﹐教了我很多東西。後來人員有了變動﹐新的CEO接任後﹐整個兒的政策都變了。所以﹐他的確有跟我講﹐他說﹐“陳﹐我覺得你不會太適應這個工作環境。”在那時﹐他是一家療養院的董事會成員﹐他說﹐“陳﹐也許你可以考慮在療養院工作。”我說﹐“療養院不是我的專長。我喜歡快節奏﹐我喜歡門診﹐我喜歡急診室。療養院不適合我。”他說﹐“陳﹐不要太早下結論。你先考慮一下。”後來﹐我發覺事情並不像我想象的那樣﹐我就想﹐“也許現在是我換工作的時候了。”但當時那個療養院是在布朗士區﹐我住在布魯克林區。我父親當時和我住在一起﹐他已經八十多歲了。所以﹐搬家對他來講不太容易﹐還要再適應新的環境。於是﹐我就考了駕駛執照 - 幸好我通過了考試 - 我就跟他講﹐“現在我能夠去那裡上班了。”否則的話﹐我上下班要花三個小時。我還記得﹐我頭一天晚上買的車﹐轉天就上班了。我開車開了有一個半小時﹐但找不到療養院。我平時開車比較辛苦﹐但我在療養院學了不少東西。那是家猶太人的療養院 - 就我一個中國人。但唯一的問題是我的性格﹐我更加喜歡做病人護理。每天晚上十點下班﹐十一點到家。轉天早晨六點又要工作。我非常勞累﹐還出了幾次車禍。</p>
<p>因此﹐我認為這份工也許不適合我。當時﹐St. Vincent's在招人。我那裡有個朋友要退休﹐想讓我接手。我就去了St. Vincent's。<br>
那次面試很有意思。我甚至跟St. Vincent's的主任和副院長講我可能不會適應St. Vincent's的環境﹐因為我比較有闖勁。我說﹐“如果你們接受不了我的態度﹐我們就沒有必要再繼續面試了。”結果他們同意要我了。實際上﹐在同意之前﹐他們已經做了些安排﹐已經準備好讓我接手了。於是﹐我欣然接受了這份工﹐儘管我的工資沒有以前高﹐頭銜也降了。在療養院我是護士長助理。這裡有524個床位﹐而且他們許諾現任護士長退休後我可以接任。我總是有個夢想﹐想以後開一家中國人的療養院﹐幫助亞洲人團體。而且﹐那個時候我已經很疲勞了﹐健康第一嘛。所以﹐我決定離開療養院去St. Vincent's工作。然而﹐療養院的那些人還跟我講﹐“Selina﹐記住﹐如果是因為錢的問題﹐我們可以把工資漲上去。”我說﹐“不是錢的問題。我的興趣還是中國人的團體﹐中國病人。”他們還是跟我講﹐“那邊如果干得不開心﹐給我們打個電話﹐轉天你就可以過來上班。”我說﹐“多謝你們的一番心意﹐我會記住的。”但我一直沒有回去。(笑) 我有回去看望過﹐但沒有回去工作。</p>
<p>問﹕您決定來St. Vincent's工作是不是考慮到地點在唐人街﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。還有﹐無論發生什麼事情﹐我總是中國人。我內心深處為自己是中國人而感到自豪。我想把我學到的東西貢獻給中國人團體。也許我能做的並不多﹐但至少我能盡一份力。能夠幫到一兩個人我已很開心了。</p>
<p>問﹕我想先岔開一下話題。聽起來您很長一段時間都在學習工作﹐您有沒有時間談戀愛﹖您結婚了嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕沒有。我還是單身。這是個大問題。實際上﹐我在工會做事的時候﹐工資是很低的。而且﹐我弟弟需要錢讀書﹐需要我資助。我總是做兩份工。星期一到星期五我在工會上班﹐星期六和星期天我做私人護理。有些病人很喜歡我﹐讓我一天工作二十四個小時﹐就好像我每個星期工作九天一樣。所以﹐我的確沒有精力考慮個人問題。</p>
<p>
問﹕那麼﹐您一輩子差不多都在做護士這行。</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。有時病人對你評價好﹐你會感到很關心﹐你會真地感覺到﹐“哇﹐我的確改變了一些人的生活。”我有一個私人病人﹐是個猶太男的﹐受了槍傷。當我開始接管的時候﹐他脖子以下全部癱瘓了。到了最後﹐他居然能開車了。儘管癱瘓﹐他還能開車。我帶他到處走﹐帶他去戲院﹑去看電影﹑去吃飯﹐我們甚至去旅遊。他甚至說﹐“你就像我的家人。沒有你﹐我不可能總出來旅遊。”我甚至帶他去他兒子從醫學院畢業的畢業典禮﹐在哈佛﹐波士頓。我和他坐飛機一起去的﹐一切都是我照顧的。我感覺很好﹐有時這種滿足感是很不一樣的﹐是不能用金錢來衡量的。</p>
<p>問﹕如果您母親還在世﹐能看到您的工作成勣的話﹐您想她會說什麼﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕她會為我感到自豪的。我現在在St. Vincent's工作﹐我懂中文。我們中國病人的教育程度普遍比較低﹐不像那些美國人有些基礎的醫學知識。所以﹐有些病人和我們溝通有困難。我都會盡力幫助他們。如果你幫助了一些人﹐你會覺得很開心的。</p>
<p>問﹕好的。我現在要談一下911。您能否給我們簡短地介紹一下唐人街St. Vincent's的情況﹖在911之前﹐你們主要治療哪些病人﹖是不是大多數的病人都是門診﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕St. Vincent's在唐人街的診所是在1976年成立的。在那個時候﹐有很多中國女孩子嫁到美國來﹐她們沒有醫療保險。所以﹐為照顧這些人的需要﹐St. Vincent's設立了產科。我們在唐人街開了診所來幫助那些新來的孕婦移民。那是我們在唐人街的診所的雛形﹐我們在Park Row。我們實際上是在一家教堂的後面買了一個小房間。<br>
在那些嬰兒出生後﹐又有了設立兒科的需要。所以﹐我們又設立了兒科﹐搬到了東百老匯。後來﹐那些嬰兒逐漸長大﹐他們的母親的年紀也大了﹐又有了設立綜合醫院的需要﹐我們就又搬到新的地址﹐在Canal Street和Elizabeth的交口處。所以﹐St. Vincent's的歷史就改變了。St. Vincent's的醫療水平高﹐但他們比較低調﹐沒有在唐人街登廣告﹐只是病人之間的推薦。所以﹐唐人街很多人都不大知道St. Vincent's。在911的時候我的教姐在中國旅遊。她在那邊轉了一大圈兒﹐最後還要去北京看望在那兒的親戚。所以﹐當時我和她的母親一起住在長島。所以﹐我那天早上是開車上班的﹐路上有很多車。我在車上聽到很多救護車和警車的聲音。</p>
<p>問﹕那時是幾點鐘﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕九點十分左右。甚至在我到市區之前﹐路上已經是很擁擠了。到底是怎麼回事﹖誰也不知道。打開收音機後﹐聽到有飛機撞到世貿中心。因為我當時在BQE(布魯克林區和皇后區的高速公路)上﹐我能看到世貿中心。我看到姊妹塔中的一座已在冒煙。然後突然間﹐我看到另外一架飛機又撞上了另一座。當時﹐我的眼淚都流了下來。我年輕的時候就來到了紐約。儘管我不是在美國出生的﹐世貿中心是紐約的標誌。人都是有感情的﹐它就像我的家人一樣。想到有很多人在世貿中心工作﹐我的眼淚立刻流了下來。在開車的時候﹐我的手都在顫抖﹐整個人都好像不知道要做什麼。後來﹐我看到整座樓都倒了。幸好我還可以把車停到曼哈頓橋布魯克林區一邊。我找了一個地方停車﹐走上布魯克林橋。我過了橋到了曼哈頓。我看到很多人﹐還有警察﹐他們都跟我講﹐“你應該向另外一個方向走。”我說﹐“不﹐不﹐我在醫院工作。我在唐人街有診所。我必須去St. Vincent's報到。我是去那個方向。”於是﹐我過了橋到了醫院﹐料理了一下事情﹐確保所有的孕婦都沒有問題﹐我的員工也沒有問題。然後﹐我們又開了個員工會議。<br>
我讓一半的人留下﹐確保病人能夠安全到家﹐或者有人來接他們﹐或能夠坐車回家。然後﹐我帶著另外一半員工去St. Vincent's幫忙。當我們到St. Vincent's附近的時候﹐那是個非常非常感人的情景。因為我們不能打電話同醫院聯繫﹐我們不知道那邊的情況怎麼樣。於是﹐我們步行到St. Vincent's﹐走了差不多有五六個街口。我們看到一些人在排隊﹐大家都在自告奮勇﹐有的人甚至說﹐“抽我的血﹐抽我的血﹐我是O+型血。”你的確感到你的心在為他們痛哭流淚。是誰說在紐約人們不互相幫助﹖在那個時刻﹐你感到我們是團結在一起的。我們互相幫助。他們的確是想幫忙。當我們走過那些排隊的人群的時候﹐有些人大聲地向我喊﹐“為什麼我們都排隊﹐他們卻在我們的前面﹖”我們祇得向他們出示ID。我們到了醫院﹐想進去幫忙。還有一些傷心的事情。當我們到急診室的時候﹐看到整個醫院的員工全部在場﹐包括每一個醫生﹐護士﹐甚至護士助理。我們的擔架﹑輪椅﹐以及所有的器械都在那裡。警察把第六大道和第七大道全部戒嚴供救護車使用。但是﹐沒有一輛救護車到。後來有一輛救護車趕到﹐大家都非常高興。我們在鼓掌﹐歡迎救護車的到來。倒不是我們希望有人受傷﹐而是我們感到還有人活著﹐我們能夠幫忙。</p>
<p>問﹕為什麼沒有救護車來呢﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕因為沒有人活著。沒有人還活著需要送到醫院搶救。當別人把他們挖出來的時候﹐已經來不及救護了。這是令人傷心的部分。所以﹐當有救護車到醫院﹐這就意味著還有人活著﹐還有機會。</p>
<p>問﹕現在﹐整個兒St. Vincent's都在25 Elizabeth Street﹐對嗎﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕不﹐只是門診所。我們醫院還是在第七大道十二街。</p>
<p>問﹕所以那個地方還沒有戒嚴﹐就像那天的唐人街。</p>
<p>
陳﹕是的。但問題是我們有一個外傷中心。當時我們是曼哈頓下城的唯一一間外傷中心。所以﹐我們能夠處理所有的外傷病人。這就是為什麼所有的重大外傷病人都要送到St. Vincent's。</p>
<p>問﹕在十二街的那家﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。還令人感動的是那天有很多其他醫院的醫生﹑私人醫生到我們這裡報到﹐包括St. Vincent's其他地方的員工﹐無論他們在哪裡。還有其他醫院的護士﹐即使她們不上班﹐都來這裡自願來幫助。所以﹐我們沒有太多的事情做。而且﹐我還記得我們設立了一個家庭中心﹐讓那些家屬找到在世貿中心的親人﹐無論他們是在醫院﹐還是在現場。我也自願參加了﹐聽到很多傷心的故事。你的心都在為他們痛哭。情緒很難控制﹐因為你感覺是他們中的一份子。那個時刻的確很不容易。</p>
<p>問﹕那天您有沒有想過來唐人街的門診所﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕那天我在診所。</p>
<p>問﹕您在診所。</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。我們有另外一間診所在世貿中心附近﹐Ground Zero﹐在St. Margaret House。在911之後﹐沒有辦法再去St. Margaret House。甚至在St. Margaret House的門診所也關閉了。但是我知道St. Margaret House的病人還沒有被疏散。有很多老人住在那裡。所以﹐我到了Fifth Precinct問那裡的警察。我說﹐“我的門診所在St. Margaret House。我只是想過去看一下。你們能不能帶我過去﹐去St. Margaret﹖”他們就帶我去了。這是轉天的事情。我到了St. Margaret House﹐那天晚上那裡沒電沒水。後來﹐他們找來一臺應急發電機﹐恢復了供電﹐<br>
然後分發了一些瓶裝水。因此﹐我得以又在St. Margaret House待了幾天。我也是在那邊睡的。因為如果有人生病﹐我也能夠幫上忙。而且﹐St. Margaret House的醫護人員都已經很疲勞了。至少我在那裡過夜可以讓他們休息一下。他們可以在晚上睡些覺﹐我接替了夜班。因為我的醫院裡有很多的志願者和醫護人員﹐St. Margaret那裡缺少人手。所以﹐我去了St. Margaret。</p>
<p>問﹕您個人的經歷以及職業訓練中有沒有哪些事情為您準備了這一天﹐這樣的災禍﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕這麼跟你說吧﹐我曾當過療養院的護士長。州裡有規定要求我們為一些突發事件做些應急的準備。在St. Vincent's也是一樣的。我們要做很多的應急準備﹐每年還要演習兩次。我記得有一次療養院的一個管道破裂了﹐很多水沖到一間病房。在早晨兩點鐘﹐我被叫起來。於是﹐我開車到了療養院。我們必須疏散所有的病人﹐把他們轉移到其他病房或大禮堂。我們必須關掉所有的電源﹐確保電工不會因為碰到水而觸電。所以﹐我從那次經歷中學到在大多時候如何應付緊急情況。而且﹐我還擔任過醫務指導員教授護理。所以﹐我總是記得在我給醫務人員講課的時候﹐我反復強調一件事情﹐“發生緊急情況後﹐最糟糕的事情就是慌亂。無論發生什麼事情﹐要給自己一分鐘的時間﹐深吸一口氣﹐考慮下一步要做什麼。這樣比你們慌亂要更有好處。”作為指導員﹐我能夠教我的員工做這些﹐所以﹐我總是能夠自己記住應該怎樣做。我認為這些對我都有幫助。</p>
<p>問﹕那是唐人街的那個地方﹖我想再集中談一下Elizabeth Street的St. Vincent's的情況。因為唐人街的很多地方都被戒嚴了﹐煙也比較濃﹐有沒有很多人跑到診所不知道該做什麼﹖當時的情景如何﹖</p>
<p>
陳﹕我們的樓是寫字樓﹐所以診所的標誌不是很明顯。別人不想讓它太明顯。但有人在St. Margaret House﹐因為那裡離Ground Zero很近。在St. Margaret House能夠看得很清楚。你會看到所有的灰塵﹑煙和落下來的東西﹐以及世貿中心倒在Fulton Street上。即使世貿中心的玻璃屋頂都蓋滿了灰塵。還有人們進來時的樣子﹐都在驚慌叫喊﹐的確是很可怕的場景﹐非常恐怖。但唯一的是﹐我們與紐約同呼吸共患難。我們一起經歷過﹐一起工作﹐互相幫助。我仍然能夠清楚記得在家庭中心有很多的年輕人進來提供給我們食物﹑飲料和其他便利。為什麼有人說年輕一代不像我們年老的一代人﹖我不這樣認為。在911的時候﹐你真地會感覺到年輕人的確會彼此幫助。我為他們感到驕傲﹐真的很驕傲。</p>
<p>問﹕您有沒有覺得那天您做的一些事情讓您自己都感到很驚訝﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我覺得以我的職業態度我並沒有覺得驚訝。如果我能夠參與的話﹐我會盡力的﹐為什麼不呢﹖大家都應該伸出援助之手。</p>
<p>問﹕St. Vincent's是怎樣建立的﹖是私立還是 - ﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是個天主教的機構﹐是靠天主教會的捐款成立的。在911期間﹐我們把醫院裡大部份的病人都送走了。我們把整個兒醫院騰出來接受因911受傷的病人﹐而且﹐我們清理了幾層樓供警察和消防員使用﹐提供他們床位休息或洗澡。我們整所醫院都投入到911。我們對此還是很有準備的。令人傷心的是﹐在此之後我們很多的員工都要接受心理治療﹐因為他們目睹了很多不幸的事情。我們親眼目睹和聽到了很多不幸的事情。</p>
<p>問﹕有沒有哪一個病人給您留下了很深的印象﹖</p>
<p>
陳﹕有。在家庭中心我見到一些受害者的家屬哭著進來。其中有一個小伙子說他父親長年坐輪椅。他那天早晨和他的女朋友一起去Windows of the World﹐後來就再也沒有聽到他的消息。另外一個故事是一個遊客和他的全家人要去世貿中心觀望臺﹐但那裡九點之後才開門。他的女兒說肚子餓﹐所以﹐他出去為他們買早餐。當他回去的時候﹐他已經進不去了。所以他再也沒有見到他的太太和女兒。我們聽到了很多的故事。一位女士跟我講﹐她在大樓倒之前還和她先生通過電話。我猜想是她先生打電話給她﹐說他要坐電梯下樓﹐然後大樓就倒了。我們聽了這麼多的不幸﹐沒完沒了。如果你問我故事﹐我會一直講下去﹐因為有很多很多。</p>
<p>問﹕您在醫院待了有多久﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我們待在那裡﹐直到醫院說有太多的志願者﹐我們必須輪流換班。我們沒有供志願者睡覺的地方﹐甚至沒有足夠的洗手間﹐這說明志願者太多了。食物倒不是問題﹐因為我們得到很多的捐贈。所以﹐院裡叫我們回家﹐還讓我們留下手機或傳呼機號碼以便保持聯繫。我想我們是晚上十一點離開的。</p>
<p>問﹕在當天﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕在當天。有些人九點左右走的﹐有些人七點左右就走了。但我們又待了一段時間。第二天﹐我九點鐘到了醫院。因為我們仍然能夠和診所的病人聯繫﹐我們就打電話給他們﹐跟他們講﹐“不要過來﹐因為樓已經被封了。”我們不想讓病人來唐人街後發現已經進不來了。我們必須要提前通知他們要怎樣做。如果他們生病了﹐他們可以去St. Vincent's醫院的總院。後來﹐我有去診所。但我進不去。於是﹐我就去了警察局﹐然後又到了St. Margaret House。</p>
<p>
問﹕顯然﹐911對很多人來講是很困難的一段時期。儘管您本人沒有在世貿中心現場﹐作為一名護士﹐在您看到這些不幸之後有沒有接受任何心理治療﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕實際上﹐我為那些經歷了911的人組織了幾次心理治療講座﹐特別是為在St. Margaret House的病人。那些老年病人的病房的窗戶是朝向世貿中心的。他們看到了發生的一切。我記得有一個病人告訴我她嘴裡沒有味道了。她有一個星期不能睡覺和進食。他們不懂得他們自己也因911受到了創傷﹐卻認為只是一般的身體不適。但我組織了幾次專題研討會﹐請了一名精神病醫生去St. Margaret House﹐並使用了英文﹑中文﹑以及西班牙語﹐給了他們提供了一個表達自己想法的機會。有些老年人甚至說他們不能再向窗外望了﹐因為以前每天早晨他們起床後向窗外望會看到世貿中心。現在﹐當他們打開窗戶後姊妹塔已經不見了。就好像他們自己失去了什麼﹐失去了象征。這是一段艱難的時期。所以﹐我們做了很多的心理輔導。還有﹐我自己也病了一個星期﹐然後也參加了心理治療和專題研討會。所以﹐我也是受益者之一﹐但我們做這些主要是為了幫助其他病人。</p>
<p>問﹕是不是大多數在唐人街St. Vincent's的病人都是中國人﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。差不多百分之九十五都是中國人。最近﹐我們有有些俄羅斯﹐西班牙﹐愛爾蘭﹐和意大利的病人。</p>
<p>問﹕能不能大致講一下您的病人都是一些什麼樣的中國人﹖他們是不是新移民﹖是不是有些人有醫療保險﹐有些人沒有﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我們的確有很多新移民。差不多有60%的病人都是新移民。但我們也有一些老移民。<br>
因為我們診所在唐人街已經開了有26年了﹐有一些病人是第三代移民。祖母在這裡生下了女兒﹐女兒又在我們診所和醫院生了孩子。所以﹐有的人全家都是我們的病人﹐實際上很多病人都是我們的老病人介紹來的。以前﹐我們社區主要是廣東人﹐現在有很多福建人﹐所以現在很多病人都是福建人。剛開始的時候﹐診所裡主要講廣東話和臺山話。有意思的是﹐我是在美國學的臺山話。我還記得在唐人街做的第一份工時的情景。我本人是上海人﹐我講上海話﹑普通話和廣東話。一天﹐一個臺山病人進來跟我說﹐“你不講中文。”我說﹐“你為什麼說我不講中文﹖我講三種方言。”然後﹐他們就跟我講﹐“不對﹐你的中國話不是中國話﹐臺山話才是中國話。”所以﹐我想﹐我要用六個月時間把臺山話學好。我果然做到了。現在﹐紐約再沒有人講臺山話了。現在是流行學普通話和福建話。現在在診所﹐我們大部份時間都是講普通話。這是因為新移民的組成不同了。</p>
<p>問﹕你們是否接受沒有醫療保險的病人﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的﹐我們接受﹐因為我們是天主教會的慈善醫院。但我們通常會按照收入或百分比收一點錢。如果病人必須要做手術﹐我們只收非常低的費用。如果病人需要幫助的話﹐我們通常也會用慈善機構的錢幫助他們。我們做不到百分之百﹐但我們至少會盡力做到百分之七十或八十。我們有的病人患了重病。我們會幫他們做手術﹐料理一切事情。而且﹐我們還有個移民項目(Immigration Program)﹐幫助那些患艾滋病的非法移民。我們的確為他們做了很多事情。</p>
<p>問﹕911有沒有改變醫院的政策或組成結構﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我認為唯一改變的是我們對應急事件準備的投入。醫院對發生的那些悲劇性的事件會更加有所準備。我們醫院還設立了一個控制系統﹐以便今後發生類似事件我們會及時通知附近其他診所﹐指示他們需要做些什麼。<br>
而且﹐我們要在St. Vincent's建一個新的急診室。這個急診室實際上是上一任市長Guiliani的提議。我們要將其命名為Rudolph Guiliani急診室。我們將會為化學攻擊做好準備﹐以及其他各種各樣對紐約市的攻擊。現在﹐這個修建計劃正在進行中﹐預計2005年能竣工。那時﹐我們將會有充分的準備應對任何緊急情況。</p>
<p>問﹕比如像炭疽熱﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕我想談一下2003年﹐即今年。我們有另外一個突發事件 - SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome)。因為這裡是唐人街﹐很多人在中國﹐亞洲有親人﹐或從那邊來這裡﹐診所是如何應付SARS的﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我們很多病人非常慌亂。但有些病人還不錯。我們甚至跟病人講﹐“你近期 去過中國。你在發高燒﹐而且在咳嗽。”我們會將病人帶到急診室隔離起來。</p>
<p>[有人敲門﹐採訪被中斷。簡短小聲的談話。]</p>
<p>問﹕對不起。您剛纔談到SARS﹐如果一位發高燒的病人進來。</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。我們會立刻給病人戴上面具﹐帶病人去負壓室。在我們的診所﹐我們用負壓隔離﹐所以空氣不會被帶出去。然後﹐我們會為病人做檢查。如果真是有嫌疑的病例﹐我們會立刻將病人放上救護車或出租車送到急診室。我們會記下最後和病人接觸的人的聯繫方式﹐然後再跟他們聯繫。病人一旦離開﹐我們會用漂白粉清掃房間﹐<br>
確保病菌不會再擴散。病人們對SARS都比較了解。沒有必要驚慌。並不是說所有從中國來的人都會有SARS。有的從中國來的人有相同的症狀是因為日夜旅遊造成的疲勞﹐或是有一點點的感冒。那時有很多的可能性﹐那陣子是發燒的高峰期﹐是過敏的高峰期﹐還有感冒﹐那個時候很多人都感冒了。這些同SARS的診斷非常相近。實在是沒有必要太驚慌。我還記得這麼一件事﹐有一個電話是從銀行打來的。出納員很驚慌。他們摸了鈔票。他們說﹐“病人也摸了鈔票﹐出納員接觸了鈔票後會染上SARS的。”所以﹐我們必須教育他們﹐病菌並不是通過這種方式傳染的。病菌在幾個小時後就會死亡﹐所以不會待在鈔票上傳染給銀行的出納員的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是什麼時候知道SARS的﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕因為我每天都有讀中文報紙。當我們聽到在香港和大陸發生的事情後﹐我們知道有很多人要從香港那邊過來﹐我們必須為此做好準備。實際上﹐我們是在旅行警告發佈之前就做好了準備。我們警告病人﹐如果你有發高燒﹑咳嗽﹑近期旅遊就儘快通知我們。後來﹐衛生部下達指示﹐我們就張貼出了公告去落實。</p>
<p>問﹕您處理過幾個病例﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕很幸運﹐我們沒有收到病例。我們是很幸運的。我們接收了幾個病人﹐送他們去了急診室。我們問病人﹐“你要不要去急診室﹖”然後﹐我們聯繫了急診室﹐讓他們做好準備。等病人到後﹐用不著他們等﹐直接把他們送到隔離室。幾個病人在<br>
醫院隔離室待到他們的唾液化驗結果出來後﹐X光片證實他們不是SARS患者。所以﹐我們沒有這種病例﹐一個也沒有。</p>
<p>問﹕唐人街在那段時間格外冷清。我記得那陣子街上的人都沒有平常多。醫院和診所有沒有安排你們去做宣傳教育人們﹐讓他們不要太慌張﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕有。我們通常有一個電話系統。病人會打電話給我們﹐我們也會跟他們聯繫。因為我們都有後續跟進。我們建立了一種特殊的關係﹐好像是一家人。他們如果有什麼問題﹐總會跟我們聯繫。甚至他們會問我們﹐“我聽說有SARS﹐我應該怎麼做﹖”於是﹐我們就在電話裡跟他們講解。有的病人進來後甚至問﹐“我的孩子在上學﹐學校裡會有人咳嗽﹐我買不到面具。”我就訂購了很多面具﹐有時就乾脆送給病人 - “帶一些面具回去給孩子在學校和公共場所用。”後來他們發現這些面具不是給大人用的。有的時候﹐他們孩子咳嗽。所以﹐非常有必要預防他們傳染給家人。</p>
<p>問﹕您有沒有擔心過會影響到您自己的健康﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我從來沒有考慮過。我記得我在工會工作的時候發生的一件事。我當時在22樓。有一個病人在電梯裡昏倒。那個病人和我的一位同事在電梯裡﹐她知道我在22樓。她立即按下電梯的第22層﹐並大聲喊﹐“Selina﹐有一個病人在電梯裡昏倒了。”我到了電梯那裡﹐想都沒有想﹐就給那個病人做了人工呼吸。我們給病人做CPR﹐直到救護車趕到。後來﹐醫生甚至問我﹐“你要不要給病人驗血﹐看是不是有艾滋或肝炎感染﹖”我說﹐“我已經驗過了。我有幫助病人﹐救了病人﹐至少病人沒有死在我的手上。”後來﹐那個病人死了﹐但不是在當時。至少病人平安到達醫院﹐得到了應有的治療。我選擇做了護士﹐只是想幫助別人﹐我沒有考慮是否會危及我的生命﹐<br>
我從來沒有想過這些問題。沒錯﹐我需要保護自己。但出現緊急情況的時候﹐你顧不了那麼多。</p>
<p>問﹕在唐人街工作這麼長的時間了﹐您覺得唐人街有沒有足夠的設施滿足當地的需要﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕我希望能再拓寬些場地。我認為唐人街的主要問題是我們有很多的私人的專業醫生﹐但因為很多醫療保險﹐比如Medicaid﹐HMO﹐Family Health Plus等﹐的報銷率很低﹐很多私人醫生不接受。像那些低收入的家庭﹐如果他們需要專業的治療﹐他們要去哪裡呢﹖去哪裡尋求幫助呢﹖我想我們在唐人街有足夠的空間能夠開設一些專門的科室接收那些低收入的病人﹐幫助那些低收入的病人和新移民。我認為我們還有空間。而且﹐我還相信另外一件事 - 競爭。這樣會促進服務質量的提高。讓病人有更多的選擇﹐有更多的醫院和醫生供他們選擇。這樣會促使我們大家一起發展。</p>
<p>問﹕您預計什麼時候會退休﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕這一直是我的目標 - 我想在曼哈頓下城為亞洲人中國人或幫助他們建立一所療養院。我會繼續努力﹐即使我會在這個年齡退休﹐我還是想抽出一些時間志願幫助我們的社區。</p>
<p>問﹕很顯然﹐您一生花了很多時間和精力致力于護士這一行﹐為社區服務。您有沒有遺憾過沒有騰出一些時間來解決個人問題﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕當然有。有時一個人回到家後感覺很孤獨。你會說這樣不好。但你不能再望回看。我不是算命的﹐如果我知道這樣或那樣的事情會發生﹐我不會這麼去做的。但這是不實際的。你如果總是停留在過去﹐你永遠也不會開心﹐對不對﹖你要永遠向前看﹐展望未來。的確﹐我做出了一些選擇﹐今後我的命運也因此定型了。這些已經是改變不了的了。應該望前看。<br>
如果我能夠幫助一些社區的人﹐幫助一些中國人﹐我會很開心的。就是這麼回事。最重要的事是你自己開心。我對你重要。我並沒有期望得到回報。沒有。如果你付出﹐付出就是了。僅此而已。</p>
<p>問﹕您是否打算今後都要待在紐約﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕也許我會待在紐約。如果我老了﹐我也許會回大陸或香港﹐因為生活在相同文化的社會裡會容易一些。如果我的身體還好的話﹐我一個人也能在紐約照顧自己。也許到了一定時候我會回中國的。無論發生什麼事情﹐我的根總是在中國。我們總是認為到了一定時候最好回中國渡過余生。就是有這麼一個想法。</p>
<p>問﹕您是否認為只有中國人才會有這種想法﹖您從九歲開始就離開了老家﹐一輩子大部份時間都在外面。但您仍然想在您開始的地方結束。</p>
<p>陳﹕是的。有的時候你的確是這麼想的。我想不僅是中國人這麼想。其他一些美國人也有同樣的想法。我和他們探討過﹐他們也是這樣認為的。人生只是一次旅行。就好像坐車一樣﹐車兩旁的事物都在變化﹐有時你的想法也總在變化。你不能說我這輩子一定會做什麼。同時﹐這是我回中國的感受﹐我看到中國也在變化。你就是會為自己是中國人而感到驕傲﹐為我們的發展感到自豪。</p>
<p>問﹕我們談了很多事情。您還有沒有什麼想和我們分享﹐但我還沒有提到的﹖</p>
<p>陳﹕應該差不多了。你已經問得很詳細了。也許還有一件事我要提一下。在我們中國人社區 - 我知道也許其他社區也是一樣的 - 我們的確需要鼓勵年輕人回到社區。很多年輕人受到良好教育後搬到美國人社區﹐<br>
再也不回來了。所以﹐我們的社區需要新鮮的血液。當老一代人退休的時候﹐需要有新的一代人來幫助這個社區﹐建設社區﹐領導社區。所以﹐這是我真心希望看到的。這就是我為什麼志願參加Chinese-American Social Service and Health。我們想提供條件讓新一代人學習社區工作 - 雙語社區工作。這是唐人街所真正需要的。回到唐人街﹐幫助中國人。</p>
<p>問﹕這個項目要在互聯網上進行十年﹐然後交到國會圖書館保管﹐所以希望一些年輕人能夠聽到您的故事﹐有所啟發﹐然後回到社區。感謝您抽出時間接受我們的採訪。</p>
<p>陳﹕謝謝你的邀請。</p>
<p>問﹕我是Lan Trinh﹐美洲華人博物館Documentation Project。我們今天是在唐人街St. Vincent's採訪陳熬娣。非常感謝。</p>
<p>陳﹕也謝謝你。</p>
<p>[採訪完畢]</p>
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Selina Chan
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approved
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Cambao de Duong
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2003-11-17
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
Manpower
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q: I'm
going to start by having you say your full name and where you are
from.</p>
<p>Cambao: My name is
Cambao de Duong. I'm from Saigon in South Vietnam.</p>
<p>Q: Can you
tell us about your life in Vietnam?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes. I was born in Vietnam to Chinese parents. I grew up, was
educated and worked in Vietnam as a teacher in Saigon and in Kien
Tuong. I also was a principal in Saigon, too. Also I taught in the
School of Language of Teacher’s College until April 30, 1975.
Because I was commissioned to the South Vietnam army, so it was good
enough for me to be ordered to receive ten days seminar with the new
regime.</p>
<p>Interview:
Let's back up a little bit. You said that you were born to Chinese
parents. That means your parents came from China, to Vietnam?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes.
</p>
<p>Q: And as
Chinese living in Vietnam, is your life any different than an average
Vietnamese person?
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
think it did not make any difference, because in the area we lived,
there was a mix of Chinese and Vietnamese. So we did not have
language barriers, so everybody treated everybody so nice.</p>
<p>Q: So at
home what language did you speak, and what did you study in school,
also?</p>
<p>
Cambao:
At home, normally we speak our dialect -- that's Chao Chow. And
sometimes we use many other languages, like Vietnamese. Sometimes we
use Cantonese. However, in school, I went through three school
systems -- Chinese, French and Vietnamese. Mainly Vietnamese and
Chinese. In Chinese school I learned Mandarin, and in Vietnamese
school, of course, I learned Vietnamese.</p>
<p>Q: So you
do not feel any different than a Vietnamese person in Vietnam, and
your friends, your colleagues, were all different people. All Chinese
and Vietnamese.</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes. We lived together and I taught many years in the Vietnamese
school. And I taught Vietnamese literature. I speak fluent
Vietnamese, fluently, like any Vietnamese. So no one can treat me
differently.
</p>
<p>Q: So
growing up in Vietnam during wartime, did that have any affect on
your life at all?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Surely. Because of the wartime, I was called to join the army. I
received one year's training there. And because at that time I became
an officer, a lieutenant, and so after 1975…. I mean, April
30…..I was ordered to get into a re-educational camp.</p>
<p>Q: Some of
our viewers may not know what happened on April 30, 1975.</p>
<p>Cambao:
April 30, '75 was the day South Vietnam collapsed. And the North
Vietnam took over the South. It became one country after that. And
the people living in the South had to suffer with the new regime
policy and, because of that, a lot of people escaped from Vietnam. I
believe about two million people escaped from Vietnam after that.</p>
<p>Q: So
immediately following April 30, 1975, as a Chinese person living in
Vietnam, did that have any impact on your family or your personal
life at all?</p>
<p>
Cambao:
It impacted on my personal life because many reasons. One of the many
reasons is I was in the army. The second reason was, I am a Chinese
descent, and the third reason, I have a high educational background.
</p>
<p>Q: Which
army were you in?
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
was trained in Thu Duc, an Army Reserve Officer training school.
Actually, I did not fight at any time.</p>
<p>Q: You were
in the southern Vietnam army, not the northern Communist.</p>
<p>Cambao: No.</p>
<p>Q: After
'75, then what happened?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
was sent to the new regime concentration camp for re-education. That
was a struggle. I had a hard life there. I stayed there more than
three years. I had to struggle with many kinds of difficulty such as
without food, and sick without medicine. And it caused me, from a
strong man, it make me weaker. I lost a lot of weight. I lost about
fifty pounds.</p>
<p>Q: And how
old were you at this time?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
was about 32 when I was in the camp.</p>
<p>Q: And you
had already formed your own family?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes. I just married for about four months. And I had to leave my
wife. My son was born when I was in the camp.
</p>
<p>Q: So how
do you think your wife felt at the time?</p>
<p>
Cambao:
Of course she suffered. And I respect that she was able to stay to
wait for me. Meanwhile, many people take the chance to escape from
Vietnam. She had many opportunities to leave, but she stayed there to
wait for me.
</p>
<p>Q: Why do
you think you survived those three years in the re-education camp,
when so many people did not?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
strongly believe that I did a lot of good things for people. I did
not do anything to harm any people. As an educator, I taught my
students not only become people with good knowledge, but also taught
them to become good people, in order to serve society sooner or later
-- even the new regime. My students understood me, and they believed
me.
</p>
<p>Q: Do you
think you learned anything about your own strength at the time?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
learned one thing: that you believed at certain thing, and you did
the right thing, you’d get it.
</p>
<p>Q: After
you were released, three years later, how did you live your life?</p>
<p>Cambao: At
that time a lot of people, as well as teachers, escaped from Vietnam
to other countries. And Vietnamese needed teachers. So the new
regime, the so-called Viet Cong, they released me to go back to teach
in a high school. I became a high school teacher again and taught for
three years.</p>
<p>Q: Is your
whole family with you in America now?</p>
<p>Cambao: I,
and my small sized family. My direct family, my relatives are still
there, my brothers, sister, and nieces and nephews are still there.
</p>
<p>Q: And how
did you come to America?</p>
<p>
Cambao:
I had a sister-in-law and a brother-in-law living in America. They
sponsored me. Meanwhile, I tried to find my way out. I tried many
years, by boat. But I was unsuccessful. So I decided to wait for
their sponsorship, and then I was lucky, because the United States
government figured out I served in the South Vietnam government, so
they allowed me to come to this country very soon after my
application.
</p>
<p>Q: And
since coming to America, have you had the chance to go back to
Vietnam at all?</p>
<p>Cambao: No.
Totally not.
</p>
<p>Q: Would
you like to go back?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
want to, but not at this point.
</p>
<p>Q: So then
you came to America in what year?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
came to America at the end of 1983.</p>
<p>Q: And
where did you go?
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
came to New York City immediately.</p>
<p>Q: And why
did you decide to stay in New York City?</p>
<p>Cambao:
There are some reasons I decided to settle in New York City.
Because, first, I have a relative living in New York City. Second, I
believe that New York City is the capitol of the world, and with
that…
</p>
<p>Q: So you
came to New York City in 1983? You were not a refugee.</p>
<p>Cambao: I
am a refugee.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q: You are
considered refugee status?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q: But you
came over….there's a program…what is it called?</p>
<p>Cambao:
It's called ODP -- it stands for Orderly Departure Program. However,
I had to stay in a Thailand refugee camp Panat Nikhom for a period of
time, until the end of 1983. I came here because I have a
brother-in-law living in New York City. And possibly I believe that
(because of) my background the United States government accepted me
as a refugee.
</p>
<p>Q: So then
you decided to stay in New York City.</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q: Why?</p>
<p>Cambao:
There are some reasons. The first reason, I have a relative living in
New York City. Secondly, I believe that New York City is the capitol
of the world, and it is a diverse city with people … the city
with people who come from all countries of the world. And I believe
that we can avoid being discriminated (against). And finally, I
believe in New York City it is easy for me to find a job.
</p>
<p>Q: And was
it easy for you to find a job?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes. I just came for a short time and I found my first job, in
Midtown.</p>
<p>Q: How did
you find your first job?</p>
<p>
Cambao:
I was referred by an employment service agency to try some
interviews, but was not successful. And I eventually found the first
job as a food deliverer in midtown Manhattan. With, of course, very
low pay -- $3.00 an hour, lower than minimum wage. That, I know.
However, I needed to survive and feed my family. I had to take any
job, with any pay. Luckily, besides salary I also got tips, so I
could survive on that.
</p>
<p>Q: How did
you feel going from a very educated man who worked in many languages
being a teacher, to being a middle-aged delivery boy in New York
City?
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
understand, because without a job I cannot feed my family. So I had
to accept even what many people consider a lower level job, with very
low pay. I believe that I start with lower level, entry-level job,
and later on I will find better work when my English gets improved.
</p>
<p>Q: How much
English did you know when you first came here?
</p>
<p>Cambao:
When I first came I knew very little English. So I had to attend an
ESL class at the YMCA. I attended the ESL class for about six months.
During that time I delivered food, I had the opportunity to talk to
people. Even (though) my vocabulary was limited, but I believe I
could speak fluently at that time. So when I found my second job, it
was helpful for me to go through the interview.</p>
<p>Q: Before
you actually came to America, what were your ideas of America? What
did you think would be here waiting for you?</p>
<p>Cambao: At
the beginning I didn't think about coming to the United States. I
know France better. But I had no choice. So I come here. I know it is
the land of the free. That’s what I love. Also, this is the
country with the opportunities -- I found that that's true. I have no
regrets for coming to this country.
</p>
<p>
Q:
When you got here, even working as a delivery person, you still
believed that this country had opportunities for you.</p>
<p>Cambao: I
understand that I'm a newcomer. People don't know me. Whenever they
know me, they will hire me for a more appropriate position. It proved
that when I worked for a restaurant for a short period of time, the
restaurant did not provide health insurance, of course. And then I
tried to find a job with health insurance coverage. When I planned to
resign from that restaurant they wanted to transfer me to a full time
position. I forgot to tell you that my first job was part-time. How
many hours I would work per day depending on the need of the
restaurant. Some days it was about four hours, some days longer.
</p>
<p>Q: And how
long did you stay at that job, and how did that take you to the next
job?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
stayed on that job for more than two months. And then on some
occasion I knew that there was an opening in a non-profit
organization in Chinatown. So I went to apply even I didn't know, at
that time, how to take a subway train to Chinatown.
</p>
<p>Q: So as a
person in 1983 New York had many Asians. So do you feel Chinese, do
you feel Vietnamese? Is this an issue for you at all?</p>
<p>Cambao: It
didn't bother me for thinking of myself as a Vietnamese or Chinese.
Even before then I thought about that. However, after that I believe
I found something -- it doesn't matter. No matter, Vietnamese or
Chinese, it's one human being thing. So I treat all kinds of people
no differently...I also hope people treat me no differently. No
matter what color or what their educational background or what ethnic
base.</p>
<p>Q: So if I
were to ask you, Mr. Duong, where are you from, what would your
answer be?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
would say I'm from Vietnam. And when people ask me, who are you? They
mean what country are you (from) I may say I'm a Chinese-Vietnamese.</p>
<p>
Q:
So then your next job was for….?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
started to work in a non-profit organization with the lowest level
position. It was called 'intake specialist'. It is to help people to
fill out application forms. The kind of program I worked for is the
refugee vocational training program. And, you know, that's after the
stage of the boat people. A lot of Vietnamese and Cambodian and
Laotian, they settled down in New York City. So that agency needed
someone who not only can speak English but also can speak Vietnamese
and Chinese, and know their culture, in order to help them. So I was
hired to work on that position. But soon they found that I was an
educator, and they allowed me to substitute some courses, like an
accounting course. Even though I didn't know what accounting was, I
spent time to study, I taught very well, and I was promoted to the
skilled instructor position. And then they asked me to teach
computer. I had to learn more knowledge about that. It made me decide
to go back to school. And then I earned my BA degree in computer
science from Hunter College.</p>
<p>Q: And why
do you enjoy teaching?</p>
<p>Cambao: Oh,
I love teaching, because when I was young, I dropped out from school
for one semester. My principal, the person who cared about all the
students, their education -- and because I was an excellent student
in that school, I always ranked number one in the school -- and he
came to my family and he talked to my relatives and my uncle allowed
me to go back to study again, and he didn't charge any tuition,
because I was the excellent student in that program. I look at him as
a good example. He helped a lot of people. So I decided I want to be
a teacher. And that's why I attend the Teacher’s College in
Vietnam. And my whole life in Vietnam, I spent a lot of time
teaching.
</p>
<p>Q: So the
next job you were also teaching refugees.</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q: Do you
think your background made you a better teacher?
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cambao: The
first thing is my background. Second thing, I committed to help other
refugees. I know how hard it is for a refugee's life, like myself.
Everybody has to stand on your own feet. So I tried, through my
experience, I tried to help others do not fall into the same trap as
I did.
</p>
<p>Q: At this
time were you living comfortably in New York, would you say? Making
an okay living?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
believe so, yes.</p>
<p>Q: How long
did you stay at this job?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
stayed at that agency for more than seventeen years. I was promoted
many times when I was there. From skill instructor, to program
coordinator, to resource developer, to program director, to agency
coordinator, and then to the agency deputy executive director.
</p>
<p>Q: As
director, did you try to implement any changes?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes, I did make a lot of changes. Because, for me, color, and any
background, is not so important. I'm thinking we're all human beings
here. And because of that, I brought in a lot of funding to serve not
only concentrated on Asians, but also serve the non-Asian population,
too.</p>
<p>Q: So your
work is in Chinatown at this time.</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q: What
does Chinatown mean to you? Is it just a workplace, or is this a
place where you feel at home? Do you feel connected to other people
like yourself?
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
feel Chinatown is a very wonderful place. It's warm. Even if it's not
so clean, okay, it's a good place for people to visit, to work, and
especially for people who like to eat here.
</p>
<p>Q: Tell me
a little bit more about types of people you work with. Seventeen
years is a very long time to stay in one job. What kept you there for
so long?</p>
<p>Cambao:
I said Chinatown is a wonderful place. Besides, I can use my skills
and knowledge in teaching. And also I am able to help many newcomers.
Including social services people. I forgot to tell you, besides
computer science, I also received an MSW from NYU. And I am able to
help people to change. When people face the difficulty with child
abuse problems, I know the ways to handle it, and I can speak their
languages. So I advise some people to avoid their children taken by
the<b> </b>Administration for Children Services.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q: When you
first came, were there any organizations that you joined that helped
you assimilate into American life?</p>
<p> Cambao:
No, none at all or I don’t know about. I joined many
associations to volunteer to serve people. I think I'm mature enough
to help others except having language barrier. I know this country’s
culture very well, too.</p>
<p>Q: Where
did you learn about the culture?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
learned from books, I read a lot in my country. Of course they were
in Vietnamese or Chinese. So when I came to New York I found that New
York was not like whatever I cannot cope with.</p>
<p>Q: And in
this time… Can you give me a better idea of what Chinatown was
like when you arrived, at that time? In the 80s.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
see, first thing, the population even it was crowded, but in the
small areas. At that time, I believe, there was about 70,000 Chinese
in Manhattan's Chinatown…. here…. compared to Cho Lon
in the south part of Saigon in South Vietnam. There was about 700,000
Chinese there. So for me, it was very small. At that time I saw that
the Chinese in Chinatown here is an old generation. They speak either
Toishanese or Cantonese. And I saw Chinatown is about from south of
Canal to Worth Street to Center Street.</p>
<p>Q: Let's
try to get a better sense of Chinatown in 1983. When you came.</p>
<p>Cambao:
'84, actually.</p>
<p>Q: '84.
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
came to Chinatown in mid-March in 1984. I didn't know Chinatown until
that day. I thought Chinatown was a small place, but warm. It's a
wonderful place for people to visit, to work here, and to eat here. I
see the population, it was crowded in Chinatown. But I learned from
census data in the ‘80 it was about 30,000 Chinese in
Chinatown, in Manhattan, compared to Cho-lon a part of Saigon in
South Vietnam before 1975, there were 700,000 Chinese there, so I saw
that it was a small town. However, I saw it's a good place for me to
work here because I can meet people who speak my languages, including
people who speak Vietnamese in Chinatown. Even at that time I saw
only three or four Vietnamese grocery stores in Chinatown. And on
Mulberry Street here, two were here. And one was at the corner of
Bayard and Mulberry. And beside I see Chinatown in a positive way. I
also see the negative way. It was dirty. And many times we heard
about people who have committed a crime, including gangsters in
Chinatown. They have different names, and also at that time they
started to have Vietnamese gangs, too. It was just starting.
</p>
<p>Q: Would
you say you had a sense of belonging here? You felt comfortable in
Chinatown?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes, I felt very comfortable to work with my co-workers. Even if my
co-workers are black or white, but the majority of them are Asians,
including Chinese majority of Hong Kong, Taiwan and Mainland China.
We also had Asian workers from Singapore, from the Philippines, from
Korea.</p>
<p>Q: Did you
visit other cities in America, or you decided that you were going to
stay?
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
visited many other cities on occasions when I attended seminars or
conferences in other cities. I went to the west coast; I went to the
north, to the south, to many states and cities. However, I found New
York City was probably the city I liked the most because of many
reasons. Here, I can see anything I want to see, but many other
cities do not have it.</p>
<p>Q: Did you
experience any discrimination, because in the early 80s there was
still a lot of feeling about the Vietnam War. As a person from
Vietnam did you personally experience any prejudice or
discrimination?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Probably not because I was a Vietnamese. In answer to your question
-- discrimination -- I have this kind of feeling like people look at
me like a homeless person, because I went to pick up the old winter
coats for my family and myself, the bus driver did not allow me to
get into the bus. My educational background taught me that I had to
let elderly, females, and children get into the bus first. I was the
last one. And the bus driver, he closed the door when I put my foot
at the bus step. Luckily, many other people were so nice to yell at
him, "Let him in." Because I carried a garbage bag, a black
one, to put my clothing that I had just received in that and he
thought that I was a homeless guy. So he didn't allow me to get in. I
believe he did not know if I'm Chinese or Korean or Vietnamese or
Japanese. We all look similar.</p>
<p>Q: How did
that make you feel to have to go and get free clothing -- was that
the Salvation Army? Is that the kind of places you went to?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
believe that's associated with the United States Catholic Charity
(USCC). My caseworker at USCC told me the address and I went there
to pick it up. I believe that's not the Salvation Army.
</p>
<p>Q: So when
you got to America, what was your financial situation? Were you able
to bring any money over? Or you came with nothing?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
came with nothing. But I got assistance from the USCC. That's
government money. (They) assisted me through that agency. Each member
of my family received two hundred dollars assistance at the
beginning. So that two hundred dollars released me temporarily the
first time I came to this country, and then I started to work and
make my own living.
</p>
<p>Q: But
where did you live when you first got here?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
lived…I shared an apartment with my relative in the upper west
side of Manhattan.
</p>
<p>Q: So the
government did not help you as far as finding housing or put you in a
home.</p>
<p>Cambao: No.
Not at all.
</p>
<p>Q: Did that
form any impressions about the land of the free for you?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
wanted to be independent. If the government could help me at that
time, I appreciate it. I believe that that kind of policy changed.
The government could not help me so much. So I had decided to stay on
my own.</p>
<p>
Q:
So Chinatown in 84, you said, was very crowded, and there was a lot
more crime. And through the work you do, at the time, did you
personally and professionally try to make any changes in Chinatown?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
believe I did. I did a lot at that time besides my job. In my job I
was able to help the young people from Vietnam to enroll in our
program. When I became a program director, actually, I did not work
so directly with them. I didn't need it. However, I still worked very
closely with them, I provided private counseling in my office and
make them aware that to concentrate in starting to look for a new job
is better than getting involved with any activity that is not legal.
I also participated in many associations. I was a co-founder for the
Greater New York Vietnamese American Community Association, as well
as the Indo-China Sino-American Senior Citizen/Community Center. And
through these two agencies…. I forgot to tell you, I also am
the co-founder of the Vietnamese Magazine that I can write and put
the message for people to learn about the community, and about
Chinatown, too. And through two agencies and one magazine I was able
to help Vietnamese people to get funding to enroll in one program
called (the) Youth Leadership Development Program. The funds come
from the New York City Department of Youth Services, at that time.
And Mayor Dinkins at that time had an impression on me after I spoke
at a citywide conference sponsored by the US Department of Justice in
New York City. And he supported my point of view -- we have to help
the newcomers, especially young people, to know, to give them the
direction where to go. And for the Senior Center, the Indo-China
Senior Center, I set up a place for people to come to read
newspapers, to share information, to play chess, so they won't feel
so lonely. And I know that many elderly from Vietnam only can speak
certain Chinese dialects, they cannot integrate into many Chinatown
senior centers. Let’s say that downstairs here we have the
Chinatown Senior Center. Our people from Vietnam, they came in there,
they could not speak the language people use down there. So the
Indo-China Senior Center could help people who speak the same
languages have a place to come to rest and, to eat and to play. And
the government recognized our work, and after I submitted certain
proposals, these two agencies received funding to run the certain
programs. And that helped the government did not have a negative look
at the Chinese community, especially the
Vietnamese community, the smaller one here.
And I would like to mention that during the Chinatown had the Born to
Kill problem, the Asian community in general -- the Chinese and
Vietnamese community was invited to participate in many conferences
and meetings, even at the police headquarters. And I learned that one
bad exercise called Saigon Mission was established at the 5th
Precinct. You know the term 'Vietnam Rose' is used to imply venereal
disease during the Vietnam War. 'The Vietnam Rose' is used to (sounds
like) involve Vietnamese about the disease when the American soldiers
have sex with Vietnamese ladies. So I had the feeling that Saigon
Mission is the other unfair way to treat Vietnamese in Chinatown
here. So I strongly raised my voice to against the use of that term.
Eventually the police headquarters agreed with me and give the order
to precincts and captains that they had to take the name out. That's
one. And I participated in some other activities. Such as I served as
an advisor to the Board of Education’s chancellor. At that time
there was one story about the Amerasian who was 15. His story was
aired on Channel 13. A young boy, 15, came to the United States and
was adopted to live with foster parents. And he was sent to attend
the ninth grade in a high school. Meanwhile, he was discriminated
against in Vietnam because he was an Amerasian. He looked like an
American, and he was mistreated in the Vietnam school system. He only
had two years' education in Vietnam, and he came to this country and
he was enrolled in the ninth grade. So he could not understand and he
dropped out. He became a gangster in the Born to Kill. I learned that
through his caseworker, and I learned that through the Channel 13
article. So I raised my voice in a chancellor council advisory
committee meeting. I said it clearly that providing education to the
newcomers, to immigrants and refugees, it needs to be based on their
educational background rather than on their ages. And I believe that
the chancellor at that time agreed with me. And now the newcomers
will be tested before they are enrolled into whatever level in the
city. And also, the city education system continues to provide the
bilingual education to newcomer children. I also, with some friends,
established the Shuang Wen (dual languages) School. Now it is located
at the end of East Broadway at Grand Street. PS 134. And it was a
very successful school; it has run for five years. And this year for
the fourth grade citywide reading test, it was ranked number four in
the whole city. And early in this fiscal year the US
Department of Education secretary, Dr. Paige,
went down to visit that school. I believe that even the newcomers,
when we spend time and participate, we can make a difference.</p>
<p>Q: Many of
our teachers, when they first come to America, tend to work very hard
to earn enough money to live. Why do you think you have invested so
much of your time to do community involved volunteer work when you
could be working for money for your family?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
did work very hard. Sometimes I did more than one job. And I worked
in the evening time and I worked during weekends. We were paid cash.
I went to New Jersey to help people, my friend who sells watches, one
day. They paid me fifty dollars per day. I believe that education and
social services are two factors that can change our society. So I
committed myself when I thought I was ready, and I believed I was
capable to do those things, so I participated, and joined many
agencies.
</p>
<p>Q: And have
you encountered any difficulties in your work?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes, I do. Like I did not pay attention so much to my ethnic
background, but people did not think that way. The Vietnamese, they
treated me like: "Oh, you are Chinese." Probably Chinese
people, I strongly believe, they treat me like a Vietnamese. And of
course, Americans, they don't treat me like an American. Okay? If
some say to me (call me) politely like an Asian American, that is I
appreciate it. But many times they say that 'you are Vietnamese' or
'you are Chinese'. They don't say, 'you are Asian-American.' I hope I
can join in and hopefully the young generation will do more things to
help to change people's image on prejudice on this issue.
</p>
<p>Q: How?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
don't know how. But I believe that if you don't try, you won't get
it. That’s my point of view. We try, and then see if we can
change or not.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q: So even
in a city as diverse as New York City, do you think there is racial
harmony in this city?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Racial harmony -- we raise a question in this way. It depends on how
we define 'harmony', in what way. If we say that, sometimes we have
arguments because ethnic differences are normal for me. I don't want
to jump to conclusions, like in certain cases people so easily jump
to conclusions of discrimination. Like a color discrimination or
whatever discrimination. I didn't jump to that unless we have
evidence.
</p>
<p>Q: I'm
going to jump forward a little bit.</p>
<p>Cambao:
Okay.</p>
<p>Q: To
September 11, 2001. Where were you at that time?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
was in Chinatown, here. I witnessed the two towers collapse, and I
was very sad. And that time, when the second tower was hit by the
plane, I believe that from my own experience of living through the
Vietnam War, I believe that's not an accident. I did order that my
staff and students at the agency I worked at – it’s about
two hundred people -- to leave the agency to go home. However, at the
top, I have a boss, the executive director -- she came in after me.
She used the intercom to tell me: "That's an accident." I
told her, "I believe that's not an accident. That wouldn't
happen twice." And she said that we could not let everybody go
home because if the government or the funding agencies checked, what
could we do. I was unable to answer her question at that time,
because I believed people lives are more important than the other, so
I let the staff and students leave the agency. Some staff members
were stopped by her on the staircase and had to come back to the
agency and stay late on that day. I had to stay until about two. And
then have lunch in Chinatown. I had no train to go home. I came home
very late. I think that day was a very sad day. And you can see after
that the country, especially the cities, the economic situation, went
down. Many people lost their job. And we faced more difficulty
as a social service agency. Many people came
to us even they were not eligible for our services. But still, I had
to spend some of my time to help them. And working in Chinatown, it
was much near my home compared to my current job site, I usually came
home late, because I had to spend more time to serve my clientele
here.</p>
<p>Q: And on
an impact level, did September 11th impact your job?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes. It made my job harder. Because, like I said before, more people
came to me, even they were not eligible for our service.</p>
<p>Q: As an
agency, did you try to find ways to get more resources and to get
more money to help our people?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Yes. Besides running my own program, where I oversee the agency and
some parts of the operations, for a certain time we have to spend
some time to look for funding. And I was able to get for the agency
an additional $300,000. I received a check from Chicago. One
foundation called McCormick Tribune Foundation, they gave our agency
$300,000 to serve the people impacted by 9/11. They saw our program
was one of the top programs. We had been selected to receive their
funding. And also at the same time my boss had a connection with a
federal government agency, and we got additional funding to serve the
people.</p>
<p>Q: Do you
think your personal background, all the difficulties that you have
personally experienced, has prepared you for situations like this?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
strongly believe so. Because I lived through the Vietnam War, so I
have to be sensitive to hear the sound, to see the things, in order
to avoid being hurt during the Vietnam War. And also more than three
years living in the new regime -- South Vietnam new regime -- in a
concentration camp, it prepared me to face the difficulties.
</p>
<p>Q: Did you
want to leave Vietnam if your life hadn't changed the way it did
after 1975?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cambao: Of
course I did not want to. Even the change of '75 events, I still
strongly believe that it's a good place to live, and to utilize my
knowledge to help people. But the new regime did not accept me. They
didn't want me to stay there. So I had to leave.
</p>
<p>Q: You felt
that you had no choice.</p>
<p>Cambao: I
had no choice.
</p>
<p>Q: Do you
feel you have lost your home, in a way?
</p>
<p>Cambao:
Financially, that's true. I lost a lot of property there. I lost many
homes there. I owned land and homes over there. That's why I came to
this country. I didn't buy gold, like many other Asians and Chinese
would buy gold. They can use gold to buy a boat to escape from
Vietnam. I did not have that.
</p>
<p>Q: When I
say 'home' I don't mean just a house or property, but a sense of
belonging because you have two generations of your family had been in
Vietnam. It was like you lost your country, in a way.</p>
<p>Cambao:
That's true. Thank you for understanding about that part.
</p>
<p>Q: So have
you rebuilt a home in New York City?</p>
<p>Cambao: In
terms of 'home', that's true.</p>
<p>Q: Do you
feel you belong here, you feel comfortable here, you will stay here
for the rest of your life and future generations?
</p>
<p>Cambao: At
this point, my answer is yes. I don't know what will happen in the
future.</p>
<p>
Q:
So tell us about your work presently.</p>
<p>Cambao:
Okay. Currently I work for a Jewish American association. It has
established a new branch in Brooklyn and I was hired last year to run
the branch in Brooklyn. It's an employment placement service agency.
We help everybody until the end of last year. Because of funding
shrinking, now we can only help people on public assistance.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q: I know
that your job is no longer in Chinatown, but it's almost twenty years
that you've been part of this community. What are some of the biggest
changes that you've seen here?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Actually, nineteen years. I've been in this country nineteen years.
I've seen changes, a lot, in Chinatown. Even though I am not working
in Chinatown, but I still come back to Chinatown. I volunteer to
serve on the board as a president of the Eastern
Vietnam-Cambodian-Laos-Chinese Decent Association. I usually go there
to oversee the books and to provide services to elderly and needy
people. So I see things change compared to the time I came to
Chinatown in March of 1984. I see the population change. A lot of
people come from Fujian to come to Chinatown. And I learned through
the census -- 2000 -- that I participated, and I found that there are
a lot of undocumented residents living in New York City. They're
living here, but working in other cities, or out of the city. They
must have the place to live in Chinatown. As I know you may have
paid attention to the newspaper a couple of days ago. At 81 Bowery,
the fourth floor, one floor is about two to three thousand square
feet. More than a hundred people live up there. Okay. First the
population changed. Of course the language changed too. In the past,
Toishanese and Cantonese were spoken in Chinatown. But now, Fujianese
and Mandarin gradually were used in many places. I've seen more
stores open, and the area of Chinatown was expanded to the north of
Canal. A lot. However, it was not much on the south of Canal. And to
the west on Canal, it was expanded to Broadway. There's a big change,
and one positive change I like very much -- Chinatown is cleaner
compared to the past. I would like to acknowledge the Cleaning
Chinatown Committee, led by Danny Lee, Eva Tan, Bill Lam, and many
other business people in Chinatown here. And I see a lot of positive
things in Chinatown here. Now they even still have gangsters, but
they are not so
active like in the past. So the crime rate
went down consecutively in the past five years. More than five years.
</p>
<p>Q: Do you
think Chinatown, as a neighborhood, received less funding for things
like sanitation, and traffic, than other areas? It is obviously very
crowded and still dirty, compared to other areas of Manhattan.</p>
<p>Why do you
think that is?</p>
<p>Cambao:
Because we didn't raise our voice strong enough for people to hear,
especially to the elected officers. They thought that we did not have
this kind of need. Some agencies did apply, but they were not strong
enough to make the funding agencies believe that Chinatown has this
kind of need.
</p>
<p>Q: Do you
think Chinatown as a community and the residents of Chinatown speak
up to make changes for the community, or are they more worried about
themselves?<br><br>
</p>
<p>Cambao:
Frankly, I see they are not united to the level as I expected to make
the community strong and make the funding agencies believe they
represent for the Chinatown community, to fight for the Chinatown
community's benefit. Some agencies just care about their own
agencies’ operation, and they try to get the funding for the
services they provide, not for the whole of Chinatown. That's easy to
understand. Because they specialize in their field, they fight for
their field money. I hope that Chinatown in the long run will have
some leader to put everybody together and make it strong like I
experienced in the Chinese community in Vietnam. They were so strong.
When they wanted to do some things, the leaders said something and no
one turned it down. But here it seems everybody was a leader, and it
seems that we have no leader.</p>
<p>Q: Is it
really possible, when you have so many different groups in Chinatown
-- as you said, there's now the Fujianese, you have the Cantonese,
the Toishanese, there's many, many different groups -- who would this
leader be?</p>
<p>
Cambao
-- At this point I see one positive thing happening in the Fujianese
(community). They were so close to it. They started to provide
service to their community, let’s say ESL. This is a good
thing. Did you see any other agency provide it beside a non-profit
organization? It's not happening to the other ethnic group -- I mean
the other like dialect speaking groups. Only the Fujianese. I see
that happens to their community and because of that some people
(certain level of government representatives) cared and came down to
visit them. And whenever the elected officers need money, they will
come to them. And it's a two-way direction. If they support certain
people, of course in return they can get something from them to
support their community.
</p>
<p>Q -- So
because of the proximity, we know that Chinatown suffered huge
business losses after September 11th. Do you think now, two years
later, Chinatown is back? Is business back to usual as before
September 11th or still in the rebuilding stages?</p>
<p>Cambao: On
the surface I see the restaurant business has come back. However, I
don't think the garment factories, the other main business in
Chinatown, have not come back yet.</p>
<p>Q: Will
they come back, do you think?</p>
<p>Cambao:
According to my understanding, even (though) I'm not in that field,
because of the trade issue the central government has signed certain
agreements with foreign countries, I don't think this garment factory
industry will come back to New York City, here, especially Chinatown.
In the United States the cost of labor is more expensive compared to
send the clothing making to Mexico or to China. So I don't think it
will come back. Some people need to think about a change in the
services in Chinatown, here, or the model of business in Chinatown,
here, in order to make Chinatown become a more wonderful place for
people. To attract tourists to come here is one of many ways.
</p>
<p>
Q:
Can you really see a future where Chinatown is unified, with all the
different groups have a strong leadership? Or that they could put
their differences aside and work towards the greater good of the
community. Can you really see that happening?
</p>
<p>Cambao: I
don't see one leader. But many leaders can work on the same goal, or
for the same project, even though they have different points of view.
But for the benefits of the whole community they can work on a
project, and then we can work with many leaders, not only one leader.</p>
<p>Q: Do you
have any goal to run for any office?</p>
<p>Cambao: No.</p>
<p>Q: Why not?</p>
<p>Cambao: My
age and my health do not allow me to do so.</p>
<p>Q: But if
not for your age and your health, would you consider it?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
think I'm more suitable in the social service field. Two weeks ago I
just went to talk to a group of parents at PS 69, and today I have
many other schools that want to invite me to talk to parents. So
hopefully that can help the newcomers to know the America better, and
then they can make themselves…adjust themselves…to fit
into this country. And this society.</p>
<p>Q: When you
look back at your life, do you think you are an American success
story?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
don't think so.</p>
<p>Q: Why not?</p>
<p>
Cambao: Many people define the 'success story'….you
have to…in Chinese term for Mandarin: (explains in Mandarin <b>--
</b>Four things. You need to have a house. Have a car, have a wife,
and children.). I only have two.
</p>
<p>Q: Okay. (Voices overlap
here).</p>
<p>Cambao: Four things. You
need to have a house. Have a car, have a wife, and children. I only
have the last two. I didn't have a house. I didn't have a car. I
don't define success by that way. I believe I can live comfortable
and I treat people the way I hope people will treat me. In this term,
I'm so happy to see that happen to me. For instance, I lost my job.
Partly I believe that the way I demonstrate myself, people…not
everybody likes me. And myself, I follow the philosophy that I'm not
here to please everybody. I think the right thing is right, and I
will do that. And after I lost the job, many people who know me, they
call and they share and they offer me…let me know information
to get a new job. And I found that a lot of people did that for me.
</p>
<p>Q: So when
you look back at the years you've lost in Vietnam, your golden years,
in your thirties, when you were in the education camp, very difficult
years, are you bitter at all?</p>
<p>Cambao: Of
course. I don't want to mention that thing, because it brings the sad
memories back to me.
</p>
<p>Q: So what
do you think is most important for you to pass on to your children?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
told my son and my daughter to be an honorable person, and also you
need to think about what you promise to people. When you promise
something, you need to keep your word. These are the two things I
passed on to my children. And I strongly believe at this point…I
thought my son was able to handle this. I don't know about my
daughter yet. I hope that when she graduates from college and when
she goes to work and faces real life, I will see what happens to her.
</p>
<p>Q: Is there
anything that I have not asked you that you want to tell us?</p>
<p>Cambao: I
have a lot of things to tell but I don't think it's appropriate to
put in here.</p>
<p>[End
Interview]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p>
問﹕請先講一下你的姓名，以及你是哪里人。</p>
<p>Cambao：我叫Cambao de Duong。我來自南越西貢。</p>
<p>問：你能否跟我們講一下你在越南的生活？</p>
<p>Cambao：好的。我是越南出生的華僑。我在越南讀書長大，後來在越南西貢和Kien Tuong教書。我曾擔任西貢一間學校的校長。我在教師學院的語言學校任教直至1975年4月30日。因爲我受雇于南越軍隊，所以能讓我參加十天新政府的研討會已經算不錯了。</p>
<p>問：先打斷一下。你說你的父母都是中國人。你父母是不是從中國去了越南？</p>
<p>Cambao：是的。</p>
<p>問：作爲在越南長大的中國人，你的生活同一般的越南人有什麽不同嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：我想沒有什麽差別，因爲我們住的那個地方有中國人和越南人。因此，我們沒有語言障礙，大家都很友善。</p>
<p>問：你在家裏講什么語言？在學校裏都學了些什么？</p>
<p>
Cambao：在家裏，我們通常講自己的方言---Chao Chow。有時我們也講很多其他的語言，比如越南話。有時我們講廣州話。但在學校，我受了三種教學系統的教育---中文，法文，和越南語。主要是越南語和中文。在中文學校，我學習國語；在越南學校，我當然學越南語。</p>
<p>問：那你不覺得同那些越南本地的越南人有什麽不同嗎？你的朋友和你的同事都是不同的人，都是中國人和越南人。</p>
<p>Cambao：是的。我們在一起相處，我在越南的學校教了很多年書。而且，我教的是越南文學。我講流利的越南語，和越南人一樣流利。因此，沒有任何人會覺得我和其他人有什麽不一樣。</p>
<p>問：戰爭期間在越南長大，這對你的生活有什么影響嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：當然。由於是戰爭時期，我被征軍。我在那裏接受了一年的訓練。在那時，我成爲了一名軍官，中尉。因此在1975年之後---，我是說，4月30日---，我被關進了勞改營。</p>
<p>問：一些人可能不知道1975年4月30日發生了什么事情。</p>
<p>Cambao：1975年4月30日是南越政府倒臺的日子。北越佔領了南越。從此國家統一了。南方人不得不忍受新政府的政策。正是因爲這個原因，很多人逃離了越南。我想在那之後大約有兩百萬人離開了越南。</p>
<p>問：作爲在越南生活的華人，在1975年4月30日後，這個事件是否影響到你的家人或你個人的生活？</p>
<p>
Cambao：它對我個人生活的影響有若干個原因。其一，我還在軍隊裏。其二，我有中國血統。其三，我有很好的教育背景。</p>
<p>問：你是在哪一支軍隊裏？</p>
<p>Cambao：我在Thu Duc接受訓練，是一所後備役軍官培訓學校。實際上，我沒有參加過戰鬥。</p>
<p>問：你是在南越的軍隊裏，不是北方的共產黨。</p>
<p>Cambao：是的。</p>
<p>問：75年之後發生了什么事情？</p>
<p>Cambao：我被送到新政府的集中營改造。那是一場鬥爭。那裏的生活很艱苦。我在那裏待了三年多。我必須面對很多困難，比如沒有食物，生病沒有藥吃。我從一個強健的人變得很虛弱。我的體重減輕了很多。我大約減輕了五十磅。</p>
<p>問：你那時有多大年紀？</p>
<p>Cambao：我進集中營的時候大概是32歲。</p>
<p>問：你當時已經成家了嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：是的。大概在被關的四個月前，我剛剛結了婚。我不得不離開我的太太。我兒子是在我被關在集中營的時候出生的。</p>
<p>問：你認爲那個時候你太太的感受如何？</p>
<p>
Cambao：她當然吃了不少苦。我尊敬她能夠一直等我。在那時，很多人冒險逃離越南。她有很多機會能夠離開，但她沒有走，一直等到我出來。</p>
<p>問：爲什么你在集中營關了三年後還能活下來，而很多人卻沒有？</p>
<p>Cambao：我堅信我爲了人們做了很多好事。我沒有做過任何傷害別人的事情。作爲一個執教人員，我不僅向我的學生傳授了很多知識，而且也教他們要成爲正直的人，以後好爲社會服務---即使是新的政府。我的學生都理解我，他們也相信我。</p>
<p>問：那段時期，你是否知道了自己的實力？</p>
<p>Cambao：我學會了一件事情：如果堅信一些事情，而且做正確的事情，你會實現你的目標的。</p>
<p>問：三年後，你被釋放之後，你的生活怎么樣？</p>
<p>Cambao：在那個時候，很多人，包括教師，離開越南逃離到其他國家。越南人需要教師。因此，新政府，所謂的越共(Viet Cong)，釋放了我，讓我在一所高中教課。我又成爲了一名高中教師，在那裏教了三年。</p>
<p>問：現在你的全家是否和你一起住在美國？</p>
<p>Cambao：我和我的小家庭。我的家人和親戚仍然在那裏，我的兄弟姐妹，侄女和外甥還在那裏。</p>
<p>問：你是怎樣來到美國的？</p>
<p>
Cambao：我太太的兄弟姐妹在美國。他們申請我過來的。同時，我也一直在找機會出來。我試了許多年，坐船。但都沒有成功。所以，我就決定等他們的申請。後來，我非常幸運，因爲美國政府發現我曾爲南越政府工作，因此在我申請之後他們便很快讓我來到這國家。</p>
<p>問：自從你來到美國之後，你是否有機會回越南？</p>
<p>Cambao：沒有，完全沒有。</p>
<p>問：你想回去嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：我想，但不是現在。</p>
<p>問：你是哪一年來美國的？</p>
<p>Cambao：我是1983年年底來美國的。</p>
<p>問：你去了哪里？</p>
<p>Cambao：我立即來到紐約市。</p>
<p>問：你爲什么決定住在紐約市？</p>
<p>Cambao：我決定留在紐約市有以下一些原因。首先，我有一個親戚住在紐約市。其次，我覺得紐約市是世界首都，以及---</p>
<p>問：那你是1983年來紐約的嗎？你不是難民。</p>
<p>
Cambao：我是難民。</p>
<p>問：你是難民身份？</p>
<p>Cambao：是的。</p>
<p>問：但你是---，有一個專案---，是叫什么來的？</p>
<p>Cambao：叫ODP---全稱有秩序離開的專案(Orderly Departure Program)。但我必須要在泰國Panat Nikhom難民營待一段時間，直到1983年底。我來這裏是因爲我太太的兄弟住在紐約市。我猜想因爲我的背景美國政府把我作爲難民而接收我進來的。</p>
<p>問：然後你決定要留在紐約市。</p>
<p>Cambao：是的。</p>
<p>問：爲什么？</p>
<p>Cambao：有幾個原因。第一，我有個親戚住在紐約市。第二，我認爲紐約市是世界的首都，是個多樣化的城市，這裏的人來自全世界的各個國家。同時，我想我們不會受到歧視。最後，我想我在紐約市比較容易找到工作。</p>
<p>問：你找工作容易嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：容易。我只來了不久就在中城找到了第一份工作。</p>
<p>問：你是怎樣找到第一份工作的？</p>
<p>
Cambao：一個就業服務機構讓我去一些地方面試，但是沒有效果。最後，我找到的第一份工是在曼哈頓中城送外賣。當然，工資非常少，每小時3美元，比最低工資還要少。這我是知道的。但我必須生存，養家糊口。我必須打工，即使工錢很少。還好，除了工資以外，我也有小費。因此我能夠以此度日。</p>
<p>問：從一個懂好幾種語言、受過高等教育的教師到一個紐約市送外賣的中年人，你的感受如何？</p>
<p>Cambao：我知道，如果沒有工作，我不能養活我的家人。所以，我不得不做很多人認爲很低下、廉價的工作。我想我先做一些低下、不需要任何技能的工作，以後等我英文有了提高之後再找更好的工作。</p>
<p>問：你剛來這裏的時候懂多少英文？</p>
<p>Cambao：我剛來的時候只懂一點點英文。所以，我要去YMCA上ESL課。我上了六個月的ESL課程。那個時候，我在送外賣，有機會和別人交流。儘管我的辭彙量有限，但我想我那個時候講得還算流利。所以，當我找第二份工作去面試的時候，我的英文對我有很大幫助。</p>
<p>問：在你來美國之前，你對美國的印象如何？你覺得你在這裏的生活會是怎樣？</p>
<p>Cambao：開始的時候，我沒有太多想來美國後的情況。我的法語要好一些。但我沒有其他選擇。於是，我就到了這裏。我知道這裏是自由的地方。那是我所向往的。而且，這個國家有很多機會---我發現這是真的。來這個國家我沒有任何惋惜。</p>
<p>
問：即使你到這裏的時候送外賣，你仍然相信你在這個國家有很多機會。</p>
<p>Cambao：我知道我是新來的。別人都不認識我。當他們認識我之後，他們會雇我做更加適合我的工作。當然，在餐館做了很短一段時間之後，我發現餐館不提供健康保險。然後，我就想找一份有健康保險的工作。當我想辭掉餐館工作的時候，他們想讓我轉做全職。我忘了告訴你我第一份工作是半職的。我每天做多長時間取決於餐館的需要。有時是四個小時，有時更長。</p>
<p>問：你在那裏做了多久？後來又是怎樣找到下一份工作的？</p>
<p>Cambao：我在那裏做了兩個多月。後來，我知道唐人街一個非營利組織在招人。於是，我就去那裏申請，即使我那時還不知道怎樣坐地鐵去唐人街。</p>
<p>問：1983年紐約有很多亞洲人。你覺得自己是中國人，還是越南人？這對你是個問題嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：我並不太想自己到底是越南人還是中國人，儘管在那之前我有考慮過這個問題。但在那之後，我想我找到了答案---這無關緊要。越南人也好，中國人也好，始終都是人。所以，我是同樣看待各種各樣人的。同時，我也希望別人如此看待我，無論是什麽人種，教育背景，或種族。</p>
<p>問：如果我問你，Duong先生，你是哪里人，你會怎樣回答？</p>
<p>Cambao：我會說我是越南人。如果別人問我‘你是誰？’他們是想問你是從哪個國家來的，我可能會說我是越南華僑。</p>
<p>
問：你下一個工作是做---？</p>
<p>Cambao：我開始在一個非營利組織做最基礎的工作，叫做‘客戶專家’，幫人們填申請表格。我涉及的專案是難民職業培訓。那是在船民時期之後，很多越南人、柬埔寨人，和老撾人來到紐約市。所以，那個機構需要找一個不僅能講英文，而且能將越南話和中文，瞭解他們文化的人來幫助他們。所以，他們雇我做這些事情。但很快他們知道我是搞教育的，於是他們允許我教一些課程，比如會計課。儘管我不懂會計，我花時間學，我教得很好，被晉升到經驗教師的職位。後來，他們又要我教電腦。我必須學習那些方面的知識。因此，我決定再回學校學習。後來，我在Hunter學院獲得電腦科學的學士學位。</p>
<p>問：你爲什么喜歡教書？</p>
<p>Cambao：我喜歡教書是因爲在我小的時候有一個學期我輟學。我的校長關心所有的學生和他們的教育---。因爲我在那個學校是個很優秀的學生，我在那裏經常考試第一名。他到我家和我家人談話，我叔叔就讓我回學校上學了。他沒有收任何學費，因爲我在那裏是個優秀的學生。我把他作爲一個好榜樣。他幫助了很多人。於是，我決定要成爲一名教師。正因爲此，我在越南上了教師學院。在越南的時候，我大部分時間都在教書。</p>
<p>問：所以，你下一份工作是教難民。</p>
<p>Cambao：是的。</p>
<p>
問：你是否認爲你的背景使你成爲一名更好的教師嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：第一是我的背景。第二，我非常想幫助其他難民。通過我自己的經歷，我知道難民的生活有多么艱苦。每個人都要靠自己。因爲我自己的經歷，我想幫助其他人，這樣他們不至於走我走過的彎路。</p>
<p>問：在那時你在紐約生活得很舒服，是不是？還過得去？</p>
<p>Cambao：我想是的。</p>
<p>問：你這份工做了有多久？</p>
<p>Cambao：我在那個機構做了十七年多。在那裏的時候，我曾多次被晉升。從技能指導到專案協調員，到資源開發員，到專案主任，到機構協調員，後來是機構行政副主任。</p>
<p>問：作爲主任，你是否嘗試實行一些改革？</p>
<p>Cambao：有，我們做了很多改進。因爲對於我來講，膚色和背景不是太重要。我覺得我們大家都是人。因此，我沒有把資金全部用來服務亞洲人，也有其他非亞洲人。</p>
<p>問：那時你是在唐人街工作？</p>
<p>Cambao：是的。</p>
<p>
問：唐人街對你意味著什么？是不是僅是一個工作的地方，還是說你覺得像是自己的家？你是否感覺和其他同樣背景的人很親近？</p>
<p>Cambao：我認爲唐人街是一個非常好的地方。很熱鬧。即使不是非常乾淨，還是人們旅遊、工作的好去處，尤其對那些喜歡在這裏吃飯的人。</p>
<p>問：請再談一下和你工作的都是一些什么樣的人。十七年做同一份工實在是很久。是什么使你在那裏呆那么久？</p>
<p>Cambao：我說過唐人街是一個好地方。除此之外，我能運用我的技巧和知識教學。而且，我能夠幫助很多新來的人，包括一些社工。我忘了跟你講，除了電腦科學以外，我還在紐約大學獲得了社會工作碩士學位。我能夠幫助人們改變。當別人遇到虐待兒童的問題的時候，我知道如果解決，而且我講他們的語言。這樣，我給他們提建議，這樣他們的孩子就不會被兒童服務管理處的人帶走。</p>
<p>問：你剛到這裏的時候，有沒有什么組織幫助你適應美國的生活？</p>
<p>Cambao：沒有，或者我不知道。我參加了很多協會，志願爲人們服務。我想我已經足夠成熟，能夠幫助別人，只不過有語言障礙。我也很瞭解這個國家的文化。</p>
<p>問：你是怎樣瞭解這裏的文化的？</p>
<p>Cambao：我有讀書，我在我的國家讀了很多書。當然，那些是越南文或中文書。所以，在我來到紐約時，我發現紐約並不是很難適應。</p>
<p>
問：在那個時候---，你能再跟我講一下你來的那個時候唐人街是什么樣的嗎？在80年代。</p>
<p>Cambao：讓我想一想，首先，人還是很多，但地方很小。那個時候，我想，和南越西貢南部的Cho Lon比起來，曼哈頓唐人街大概有七萬華人。這裏大概有七萬華人。對於我來講還是很少的。那個時候，唐人街的華人都是老人。他們講臺山話或廣州話。唐人街差不多在Canal街以南，到Worth街和Center街。</p>
<p>問：讓我們詳細談一下1983年你來這裏時唐人街的情況。</p>
<p>Cambao：實際上是84年。</p>
<p>問：84年。</p>
<p>Cambao：我於1984年3月中旬來到唐人街。在那之前，我還不知道有唐人街。我以爲唐人街是一個很小的地方，但很熱鬧。是人們旅遊、工作和就餐的好地方。唐人街有很多人，很擁擠。80年代人口普查統計曼哈頓唐人街大概有三萬華人，而1975年以前南越西貢的Cho-lon有七十萬華人。所以，我覺得是個小地方。但我認爲是我工作的好地方，因爲我講那裏的語言，包括唐人街講越南語的人。就在那個時候，唐人街就有三、四家越南雜貨店。Mulberry街有一家，這裏有兩家。一家在Bayard和Mulberry交口處。我覺得唐人街很好，但我也有看到消極的一面，太髒。我聽說這裏很亂，經常出事，包括唐人街的幫派。他們有各種各樣的名稱，而且那個時候已經有越南幫了，剛剛興起的。</p>
<p>
問：你是否覺得自己屬於這裏？你在唐人街感覺舒服嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：是的，我和我的同事工作很愉快。儘管我的同事有黑人或白人，但大多數是亞洲人，很多是從香港、臺灣和中國大陸來的華人。還有從新加坡、菲律賓、韓國來的亞裔員工。</p>
<p>問：你有沒有去過美國的其他城市，還是說你總是在這裏呆著？</p>
<p>Cambao：我去其他城市都是因爲參加那裏的討論會或會議。我去過西海岸；我去過北部和南部的很多州和城市。但是基於很多原因，我最喜歡的是紐約。在這裏，我能看到所有我想要看的，但其他很多城市都沒有。</p>
<p>問：在80年代，越南戰爭還是有很多爭議，你是否因此受到歧視？作爲越南人，人們是否對你有偏見或歧視？</p>
<p>Cambao：也許沒有，因爲我是越南人。關於你的問題---歧視---，我有這種感覺，比如別人以爲我是無家可歸的人。我幫自己和家人領一些冬天穿的舊大衣，公共汽車司機不讓我上車。因爲我的教育背景，我知道要讓老人、婦女和兒童先上車。我在最後。公共汽車司機在我腳踏在公共汽車門檻的時候就把門關上了。還好，車上很多其他的人對他大聲喊，“讓他進來”。因爲我扛了一個垃圾袋，黑色的，別人給我用來放衣服的，司機以爲我是個流浪漢。所以，他不讓我上車。我想他不知道我到底是中國人，還是韓國人，越南人，或日本人。我們看上去都很象。</p>
<p>
問：你爲什么要去那裏領免費的衣服呢？---是救世軍嗎？你經常去那種地方嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：我想是美國天主教慈善機構(USCC)組織的。我在USCC的同事告訴我的地址，我去那裏去取。我想不是救世軍。</p>
<p>問：剛來美國的時候，你的經濟狀況如何？你有沒有帶錢過來？還是說過來的時候沒有帶任何東西？</p>
<p>Cambao：我來的時候沒有帶任何東西。但我有得到USCC的幫助。那是政府的錢。他們幫助我向那個機構申請。開始的時候，我家裏每個人都收到了兩百美元的資助。所以，在我剛到這裏的時候，那兩百美元暫時幫助了我，後來我就開始工作，自己掙錢。</p>
<p>問：你剛來的時候住在哪里？</p>
<p>Cambao：我在---，我和住在曼哈頓Upper West Side的親戚住在一起。</p>
<p>問：政府沒有幫你找房子，找住的地方。</p>
<p>Cambao：沒有，根本沒有。</p>
<p>問：這有沒有使你産生什么自由的土地的印象？</p>
<p>Cambao：我想獨立。如果政府那個時候能幫助我，我會很感激的。我想那種政策已經變了。政府不能幫助我太多，所以我決定要靠自己。</p>
<p>
問：
這裏較小的社區。我還想提一下，唐人街在那期間有殺手的問題，亞裔社區基本上---。華人和越南人社區被邀請參加了很多會議，甚至在警察局總部。我知道第五區開展了一個叫西貢任務的活動。你知道，‘越南玫瑰’在越戰期間是指性病。‘越南玫瑰’指美國士兵因與越南女孩子性交引起的病。所以，我認爲‘西貢任務’是另外一個不公正對待唐人街越南人的事情。因此，我強烈提出要禁止使用這個稱呼。最後，警察總部同意了我的意見，向警區和警察局長下令禁止使用這個稱呼。那是一件事情。我還參加了其他一些活動。比如，我被聘爲教育局長的顧問。那個時候有一個15歲的美亞混血兒的故事。他的故事曾在13頻道上報道過。一個15歲的小男孩來到美國，被人收養，和養父母住在一起。他在一所高中上九年級。以前，他在越南受歧視，因爲他是美亞混血兒。他看起來象美國人，在越南學校受到虐待。他在越南唯讀了兩年書，然後來到這個國家，在學校裏上九年級。但他因爲聽不懂，後來就輟學了。他加入了殺手幫派。我是通過他的社工和13頻道的文章瞭解到這些的。因此，我在一次理事顧問委員會會議上發言。我說向新來的人、移民和難民提供教育需要考慮他們的教育背景而不是他們的年齡。我想那個理事當時也同意我的意見。現在，那些新來的人在市里入學之前都要經過測試。同時，城市教育系統繼續向新到這裏的孩子提供雙語教學。我也和一些朋友一起創辦了雙語學校。現在在東百老彙末端，和Grant街的交叉處，PS 134。這是一所非常成功的學校；已經辦了五年了。在今年的全市四年級閱讀測試上獲得全市第四名。這個財政年度早些時候，美國教育局秘書Paige博士曾到學校訪問。<br>
我相信，即使對於那些新來的人，只要我們花時間去做，我們一定能改變他們的。</p>
<p>問：很多教師剛到美國的時候，爲了賺錢維持生活而非常努力地工作。爲什么你要花這么多的時間在社區裏做這些志願工作，而沒有做些有報酬的工作來維持家裏的生活？</p>
<p>Cambao：我確實工作很努力。有時我不止做一份工。我晚上和周末都有做工。我們拿現金。有一次，我去新澤西幫我的朋友賣手錶。他們每天付我五十美元。我相信教育和社會公益服務是能夠改變我們社會的兩個因素。因此，一有機會，我會這樣做的，而且我相信我有能力做這些事情，於是我有參與，並且加入了很多機構。</p>
<p>問：你在工作中有沒有遇到什么困難？</p>
<p>Cambao：有的。比如，我不太注意自己的種族背景，但別人有時沒有這樣想。我是越南人，別人卻說：“啊，你是中國人”。我相信那些中國人會認爲我是越南人。當然，美國人不會把我當做美國人，對不對？如果別人很有禮貌地像對待亞裔美國人一樣對待我，我會非常感激的。但是，很多時候他們會說‘你是越南人’，或者‘你是中國人’。他們不說，‘你是亞裔美國人’。我希望我能改變這種狀況，希望年輕的一代能夠做更多的事情來改變人們在這個問題上的偏見。</p>
<p>問：要怎樣呢？</p>
<p>Cambao：我不知道。但我認爲如果你不去做，你永遠也不會實現。這就是我的觀點。我們要去做，然後看是否會有所改變。</p>
<p>
問：像紐約這樣一個多元化的城市，你認爲各個種族在這裏相處融洽嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：種族相處融洽---，這是我們提出的問題。這取決於我們如何定義‘融洽’。如果我們說有時我們有爭論是因爲種族差異，這對我來說是正常的。我不想太快下結論，在某些情況下人們動不動就說是歧視。像種族歧視或其他什么歧視，如果沒有證據，我不會妄下結論的。</p>
<p>問：我想再談一下後來的事情。</p>
<p>Cambao：好的。</p>
<p>問：談一下2001年9月11日。那個時候你在哪里？</p>
<p>Cambao：我在唐人街這裏。我目睹兩座姊妹塔倒塌，我非常傷心。當看到飛機撞到第二座塔的時候，根據我在越戰中的經歷，我知道這不是事故。我命令學校的員工和學生---大約有兩百人---離校回家。但我上面還有個老闆，行政主任---她在我之後進來。她用內部對講機跟我說：“那是個事故”。我告訴她，“我相信那不是事故。事故不會接連發生兩次。”她說，我們不能讓大家回去，因爲如果政府或者資助機構查起來，我們怎么辦。當時，我不能回答她的問題，因爲我認爲人的生命比那個更重要。於是，我讓員工和學生離開學校。一些員工在樓梯裏被她截住，只好回到教室，那天晚些時候才回家。我待到兩點後才走。然後，我在唐人街吃的午餐。因爲地鐵不通，我很晚才到家。我認爲那天是很悲傷的一天。你能看到，在那以後，整個國家，特別是城市的經濟形勢越來越糟。很多人失去了工作。作爲社會公益服務機構，我們面臨的困難更多。<br>
很多人來找到我們，儘管他們沒有資格得到我們的服務。但我不得不花一些時間來幫助他們。我在唐人街工作的地方同我現在的工作地點相比離我家更近，我經常很晚才回家，因爲我不得不花更多的時間爲我的客人服務。</p>
<p>問：9月11日有沒有影響你的工作？</p>
<p>Cambao：有。它使我的工作更加難做。因爲，正如我先前所講，有很多人來找我，儘管他們不夠資格享受我們的服務。</p>
<p>問：作爲一個機構，你是否有想辦法搞到更多的資金來幫助更多的人？</p>
<p>Cambao：有的。除了搞我自己的專案，監管機構及其一部分運作以外，我們都有花一些時間找更多的資金。我爲機構搞到了$300,000美元的資助。我從芝加哥收到一張支票。一個叫McCormick論壇基金會的機構給了我們$300,000美元，用來服務那些受到9/11影響的人。他們看到我們的專案是最好的專案之一。我們被選中獲得他們的資助。而且當時我的老闆和一個聯邦政府機構有聯繫，我們也從那裏得到了資助。</p>
<p>問：你是否認爲你的個人背景，以及你所親身經歷過的各種困難，使你有能力應付類似的情況？</p>
<p>Cambao：我的確是這么認爲的。因爲我經歷過越戰，爲了在越戰中免受傷害，我對一些聲音和一些事情非常敏感。我在新政權---南越新政府---的統治下生活了三年，被關在集中營，這些使我能夠應付各種各樣的困難。</p>
<p>問：在1975年之後，如果你的生活未曾改變，你還想離開越南嗎？</p>
<p>
Cambao：我當然不會的。甚至在75年變化之後，我仍然堅信那裏是個好地方，我能利用我的知識幫助別人。但是，新的政權並不接受我。他們不想讓我留在那裏。所以，我必須離開。</p>
<p>問：你認爲你別無選擇。</p>
<p>Cambao：我沒有其他的選擇。</p>
<p>問：你有沒有覺得在某種意義上你已失去了你的家？</p>
<p>Cambao：經濟上是如此。我失去了那裏很多的財産。我失去了那裏很多地方。我擁有那裏的土地和房屋。這就是我來到這個國家的原因。我沒有買黃金，很多其他的亞洲人和中國人買了很多黃金。他們能用黃金買一條船逃離越南。我沒有那么做。</p>
<p>問：我說的‘家’不是指房屋或財産，而是一種歸屬感，因爲你家裏兩代人都在越南。從某種意義上來講，就好像你失去了你的國家。</p>
<p>Cambao：沒錯。感謝你能理解這些。</p>
<p>問：那你在紐約有沒有重建你的家？</p>
<p>Cambao：在你所指的‘家’的含義上，是的。</p>
<p>問：你是否感覺屬於這裏，在這裏覺得舒適，你會不會在這裏渡過餘生，以及讓你的後代也在這裏生活嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：目前來講，我的回答是肯定的。我不知道將來會發生什么事情。</p>
<p>
問：跟我們講一下你現在的工作。</p>
<p>Cambao：好的。我現在在爲一個猶太裔美國人組織工作。它已在布魯克林區建立了的新的分支機搆，我去年受雇負責布魯克林區分支機搆的運作。這是一個就業服務機構。直到去年年底，我們幫助所有的人。由於缺乏資金，我們現在只能幫助享受公共救濟的人。</p>
<p>問：我知道你已不在唐人街工作，但你在這個社區呆了近二十年。據你觀察，這裏大的變化有哪些？</p>
<p>Cambao：實際上是十九年。我已經在這個國家呆了十九年。我看到了唐人街很多的變化。即使我不在唐人街工作，我還有到唐人街來。我志願擔任東越南－柬埔寨－老撾－華裔協會委員會主席。我經常去那裏監管書，以及向年長和貧困的人提供服務。與1984年3月我來唐人街那時比起來，這裏的確有變化。我看到人口的變化。很多從福建來的人來到唐人街。同時，我通過參與2000年的人口普查得知，有很多沒有身份的人住在紐約市。他們家在這裏，但去其他城市或不在市里工作。他們在唐人街必須有個落腳處。我知道---，你也許注意到幾天前的報紙上登過，在Bowery 81號四樓，整層樓大概有兩、三千英尺，有一百多個人住在那裏。第一，人口變了。當然，語言也變了。過去，唐人街是講臺山話和廣州話。但是現在，很多地方逐漸使用福州話和國語。我看到有更多的商店，唐人街已擴展到Canal街以北，很大一片地方。但Canal街以南的變化不大。在Canal街以西已擴展至百老彙。還有一個大的變化，也是我非常喜歡的一個積極的變化---跟過去相比，唐人街變得更乾淨了。我要感謝由Danny Lee，Eva Tan，Bill Lam和其他唐人街的生意人領導的唐人街清潔委員會。<br>
我看到很多唐人街的積極的事情。儘管現在還有幫會，但他們不像過去那樣活躍。因此，在最近五年裏，犯罪率連續不斷下降，不止五年。</p>
<p>問：你是否認爲，唐人街地區獲得的衛生、交通方面的資金要少於其他地區？很明顯，同曼哈頓其他區域相比，這裏十分擁擠，而且很髒。你認爲是什么原因？</p>
<p>Cambao：因爲我們沒有提高我們的呼聲讓人們聽到，尤其沒有讓那些任職官員聽到。他們以爲我們沒有這種需要。一些機構確實有申請過，但他們沒有足夠的能力使資金機構相信唐人街有這種需要。</p>
<p>問：你是否認爲唐人街社區和居民有向有關部門反映過情況以促使社區的變化，還是說他們更多地在關心自己？</p>
<p>Cambao：坦率地講，我覺得他們沒有像我所期待那樣地團結，使社區變得強大，使資金機構相信他們代表唐人街社區，爲華人社區爭取利益。一些機構只關心他們機構自己的運作，他們想獲得他們所提供服務方面的資金，而不是爲了唐人街這個整體。這是很容易理解的。因爲他們都在從事自己的行業，他們只是爭取他們業內的資金。我希望唐人街最終會有個帶頭人把大家團結起來，使我們像在越南的華人社區一樣強大。他們有很大的勢力。他們如果想要做什么事情，領導出面以後，沒有人會拒絕。但在這裏，好像每個人都是領導，又好像我們沒有領導。</p>
<p>問：是否有可能---，唐人街有這么多不同的團體，如你所講，現在有福州人，還有廣州人、臺山人，有很多很多不同的團體。這個領導將是誰呢？</p>
<p>
Cambao：當前，我看到福州社區有一些好的迹象。他們已經快做到了。他們開始向他們的社區提供服務，比如ESL。這是一件好事情。除了非營利組織以外，你是否有看到其他機構在做這些？其他團體就沒有這種事情發生---我是指講其他方言的團體。只是福州人。我在他們的社區裏看到這些，因爲一些人（一定級別的政府代表）比較關心，去那裏慰問他們。每當任職官員需要錢的時候，他們會去找他們。這是雙向互通的。如果他們支援一些人，當然反過來他們也會從他們那裏得到很多東西來支援他們的社區建設。</p>
<p>問：因爲距離近的原因，我們知道，9月11日以後唐人街蒙受了巨大的商業損失。你是否認爲兩年之後的現在唐人街已經恢復了嗎？商業恢復到9月11日之前正常的狀況，還是說仍處於重建階段？</p>
<p>Cambao：表面上看，我認爲餐企業已經恢復了。但是，我想衣廠，以及唐人街其他主要産業，目前尚未恢復。</p>
<p>問：你認爲他們會恢復嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：據我瞭解，儘管我不是做那一行的，鑒於貿易方面的問題，中央政府已和一些國家簽署了協定。我認爲服裝業不會再回到紐約市，尤其是唐人街。利用美國的勞動力要比從墨西哥或中國進口服裝的費用昂貴得多。因此，我認爲是不會恢復的。一些人應該考慮到需要改變唐人街的服務業，或者唐人街的商業模式，這樣才能使唐人街成爲一個更美好的地方。吸引旅客來這裏是方式之一。</p>
<p>
問：你是否認爲未來的唐人街能夠團結起來，所有不同的團體會有一個強有力的領導？或者他們能夠把自己的不同之處放在一旁，爲社區的利益而共同努力。你認爲這些會發生嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：我看不到一個帶頭人。但是，很多領導也能夠爲共同的事業朝同樣的目標努力，即使他們有不同的觀點。但爲了整個社區的福利，他們能夠集中做一件事情，然後我們能與很多領導一起工作，而不僅是一個領導。</p>
<p>問：你有競選什么職務的想法嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：沒有。</p>
<p>問：爲什么沒有呢？</p>
<p>Cambao：我的年齡和健康狀況不允許我做這些。</p>
<p>問：但如果沒有年齡和健康的因素，你會考慮嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：我想我更適合做社會公益服務。兩個星期前，我去PS 69和一些家長談話。現在有很多學校想邀請我和學生的家長談話。希望這樣會使新到的人更加瞭解美國，這樣他們能夠使自己---，調整自己，適應這個國家和社會。</p>
<p>問：當你回顧在美國的經歷，你是否認爲它是一個成功的故事？</p>
<p>Cambao：我不這么認爲。</p>
<p>問：爲什么？</p>
<p>
Cambao：很多人對‘成功的故事’下過定義---，你必須---（用中文普通話解釋，一共有四樣：房子、汽車、太太和孩子）。我只有兩樣。</p>
<p>問：好的。（對話重叠在一起）。</p>
<p>Cambao：四樣東西。你需要有房子，有汽車，有太太和孩子。我只有後兩樣。我沒有房子，也沒有汽車。我對成功的定義是不同的。我相信我能生活得舒適，我按照我希望別人對待我的方式來對待別人。從這個角度來看，我很高興我做到了。例如，我失去了我的工作。從中，我至少認爲我做事的方式，別人---，並不是每一個人都喜歡我。對於我本人，我的原則是我不會取悅每一個人。如果我認爲是正確的事情，我會去做的。在我失去工作之後，很多認識我的人給我打電話，告訴我找工的資訊。我發覺很多人在幫助我。</p>
<p>問：當你回顧在越南失去的那幾年，你的黃金時代，三十多歲的時候被關在勞教營，非常艱難的時期，你是否有仇恨呢？</p>
<p>Cambao：當然。但我不想提那件事情，因爲它總是會給我悲傷的記憶。</p>
<p>問：那你認爲你想要你的孩子知道的最重要的東西是什麽？</p>
<p>Cambao：我讓我的兒子和女兒做一個高尚的人，而同時要記住向別人做的許諾。當你答應別人某樣事情的時候，你要履行諾言。我教給我的孩子這兩樣事情。此時，我堅信---，我想我的兒子能夠做到這個。我的女兒目前我還不知道。我希望當她大學畢業後工作、面對現實生活的時候，我能夠看到她做的怎樣。</p>
<p>問：有沒有什么我尚未問到你需要補充的嗎？</p>
<p>Cambao：我有很多事情要講，但我認爲在這裏說不太適當。</p>
<p>訪問結束</p>
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Cambao de Duong
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approved
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Wing Ma
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Amy S.
Chinatown Interview: Date
2003-11-07
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
garment factory owner
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
Mr. Ma, people might be watching or listening to this interview fifty
years from now; we’d like them to know a little bit about who
you are and where you came from.</p>
<p>
WING MA: Okay</p>
<p>Q:
So if you could please start out by saying where and when you were
born, and tell me a little about your childhood and family, that
would be great.</p>
<p>WING:
My name is Wing Ma, actually, I have a middle name Guo Kua and in
Chinese, we usually have the last name come first---it’s Ma
Wing Guo, which means, my last name, which means “horse,”
--- “ma” is “horse,” “wing” is
“forever,” “Guo” is country, that’s
what it means.
</p>
<p>I
was born in China in a very poor family. We were like---exactly my
grandfathers, grandmothers, they are all like farmers in China at
that time. After I was two years old, our whole family went to Hong
Kong, and I actually grew up in Hong Kong, and when I was 18 years
old, I came to this country for college. Ever since then, I stayed in
this country---after I graduated, I stayed in this country and I got
a job.
</p>
<p>To
begin with, I was an engineer, and afterwards I had my own business,
and I was the owner of a garment manufacturing company in Chinatown
here, but four years ago I closed my business because of the economy
and also the competition between the offshore and the domestic---you
know, we cannot compete with them, so I closed the business, and now
I’m working for another business now.</p>
<p>Q:
I’m going to take you back for a minute to start out. Do you
remember anything about the trip from China to Hong Kong?</p>
<p>
WING: Oh, I was about two years old. I remember a little bit. At
that time, it was very unusual for people to, with documents, that’s
going from China to Hong Kong. I got the document---my family, they
got the document from China to Hong Kong, but the Hong Kong they do
not accept us at that time, the reason being that there were a lot of
refugees that went from China to Hong Kong during the late 50s and
early 60s, and that’s why they could not handle too many people
who come to Hong Kong at the same time, so our family have to have
refugee status to get into Hong Kong. That’s all I remember.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Did your mother or father ever tell you anything about how they made
that decision to leave China?</p>
<p>WING:
Actually, it was my mother’s decision, more than my father’s.
My father actually went to Hong Kong before us, and then he went to
the Philippines after he arrived to Hong Kong, and he worked there as
a cook. My father was a cook back in China, years ago. He was a very
experienced cook, so somebody in Manila hired him from Hong Kong to
work over there, at that time, in the early 60s. So my father went to
Hong Kong first, then, after about two years, my mother and my two
other sisters and me, four of us, we went to Hong Kong afterwards.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was your life like in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>WING:
Hong Kong is a great city. I grew up. I like Hong Kong, but the only
thing is, right now, I like New York better. I like New York better
than Hong Kong now. It’s a great place to visit, but not a
great place to live, to me personally. I like New York better.</p>
<p>Q:
What kind of a place did you live in?</p>
<p>WING:
In Hong Kong? Oh, we lived in---in Hong Kong, they don’t have
like, they do have houses, but not as many like this country. But
because of the limited amount of lands over there, we lived in high
rises buildings, apartments, that was where we lived.</p>
<p>Q:
Was it big, or small---</p>
<p>WING:
Oh, small, it was about like, you have a 300-square foot apartment,
you’re lucky, very, very, lucky.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>[tape
interruption]</p>
<p>Q:
So, you were saying about that you were lucky to have an apartment in
Hong Kong.</p>
<p>WING:
That’s, as I said last time, when we had a discussion, my
mother, she is a very tough and strong lady. She is like the head of
the household. She make all the decisions, and they are good, prove
to be good. (laughter)</p>
<p>Q:
So was she working while you were living in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>WING:
She works, at that time she has to take care of my two sisters and
me, so she could not go out and work, she just took some home work
that she can do at home.</p>
<p>Q:
What kind of work did she do at home?<br><br>WING: Needlework.</p>
<p>Q:
What kind of school did you go to?
</p>
<p>WING:
I went to Hong Kong, in the Catholic school, from primary to
secondary. It’s a British educational system; they don’t
have like grade one, two, three like this country. There are six
grades in the primary school, and five grades in the secondary
school, and then two years in the post-secondary school, three year
colleges. Actually, it’s the same thing, because they have
three year college, but they have two years post secondary, which is
12<sup>th</sup> and the 13<sup>th</sup>
grade, they’re called.
</p>
<p>So
when I finished my secondary school, I took one more year post
secondary, and then I came to this country for college.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you like school?</p>
<p>
WING: Oh, very much. I was a very good student. As a matter of
fact, I had a GPA of 3.5 in college. And I have my master degree in
engineering, too. My master degree’s GPA was 3.8.</p>
<p>Q:
And, are you Catholic?</p>
<p>WING:
Fortunately, or unfortunately, I’m not. I don’t have any
religion, personally. I respect all the religions, but I don’t
believe in any religion. I respect all of them, because they are all
good.
</p>
<p>Q:
So, what kinds of things did you do for fun, growing up in Hong Kong?
What was your daily life like there?<br><br>WING? You mean, when I
was there?<br><br>Q: Yeah.</p>
<p>WING:
At that time, there wasn’t anything like what we have now. We
did not have any video game, we did not have any TV, at that time if
you own a TV at home you are very luxury, you are like rich. But at
that time, not to many people had a TV at home. So we just hang
around with our school friends and play some kind of games of our
own, you know, but at that time when I was in Catholic school, I have
a lot of school friends that they are from other countries. So we
learned English from them and they learned Chinese from us, which is
a lot of fun. I love that kind of interchanging knowledges, which is
good.</p>
<p>Q:
And how about when you were a teenager, what sort of social life did
you have?<br><br>WING: Very simple. Because I grew up in a family
that is pretty strict. We are not allowed to go out, hanging around
the street, by ourselves, so I usually stayed home, and we usually go
out with our friends with the permission of my mother, or father, you
know, so it’s like very simple. Usually we go out to the
movies, or go to play some kind of a basketball, or you know, sports,
that’s all. Pretty simple, and pretty enjoyable.
</p>
<p>Q:
What kinds of movies would you see?<br><br>WING: Some Western, some
Chinese movies. At that time, there are a lot of movies from the
United States
too---they are in Hong Kong, so a lot of
good movies I saw in Hong Kong, I’ve seen again here on TV,
which is very funny.
</p>
<p>Q:
How did you make the decision to come to college in the United
States?</p>
<p>WING:
Because when I graduate from the secondary school, there were only
two universities in Hong Kong. And when you graduate from a secondary
school, how many students? Over a hundred thousand students, to go
into two universities for about two thousand seats---the two thousand
seats not only for the students in Hong Kong, but for overseas
students, too. So you’re talking about only a thousand seats
for a hundred thousand, more than a hundred thousand people. Less
than one percent. So I could not make it. So that’s why I have
to come to this country for college education.
</p>
<p>Q:
I remember you said that your father was a cook in the Philippines.
Did he come and live with you all in Hong Kong at all while you were
there?</p>
<p>WING:
Yes. My father worked like ten months over there, and come to Hong
Kong for two months vacation, and every year is like that.
</p>
<p>Q:
I remember you telling me before in our previous interview that you
met him for the first time when you were eight.</p>
<p>WING:
Yes. Because when I was about like a few months old, my father left
China for Hong Kong, and then from Hong Kong to the Philippines. But
when we arrived at Hong Kong, he was in the Philippines, so I didn’t
see my father until I was eight years old. The first time he came
there from the Philippines to Hong Kong was 1964, 65, something like
that, so that I was like about eight years old, maybe less. That was
the first time I met my father.
</p>
<p>Q:
What was it like when you met him?
</p>
<p>WING:
Oh, very exciting. In the Hong Kong’s Airport, at that time.
Now, it’s, I’ve heard they have another, bigger airport
now, so, at that time, it’s like dreaming, you know? It’s
sort of very common at that time in the
Chinese family,
because parents, especially the father, usually they have to go out
to work. It’s difficult to make a living in China at that time,
so we usually stay home, and father work outside China, in Hong Kong,
or in some other Southeast Asian countries, at that time Southeast
Asian countries have a better economy than China. So they work there,
and then they send money back to China. That’s very, very,
usual at that time. But after we went to Hong Kong, we met each
other, so we were, sort of, closer to each other. And we are lucky. A
lot of people they don’t---they are not like us, they probably
did not see their father for many, many years. It’s very, very
possible.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you feel then, when he had to go back to the Philippines,
after you had met him for the first time?<br><br>
</p>
<p>WING:
You mean, my father? Well, you know, at that time, I knew that he
would come back in about another ten, twelve months, so you know,
there’s a hope there, which is better than the first time that
I had seen my father, eight years ago, which is too long.
</p>
<p>Q:
So, when you were getting ready to come to college in the United
States, what were your expectations like about what your life here
would be?</p>
<p>WING:
I did not expect a very easy life, which I prepared for it already. I
knew that to go to a new environment, to go to new place, you have to
start all over again---it’s not easy. Which I managed to handle
everything correctly, and because I was brought up in a family that
had a very good---my family is very strict. My mother and mother they
did not allow me to do this and do that. We are not in a Catholic
family, but some of the Chinese way of teaching the kids, I think
they are good in certain ways. I’m not saying that they’re
100 percent okay, but at least I was influenced by those thoughts.
And I use the same thoughts that my parents taught me to teach my
kids now. I don’t know whether they accept my teaching or not,
but I at least I do the same thing now.
</p>
<p>Q:
Is there anything you do different now, than what your parents did?</p>
<p>WING:
Oh, yeah. Because the kids now is a lot different from---the time is
different. A lot different from what we were before. So it’s
like, sort of they have more freedom than what we had before. Freedom
in a way that my parents say something at the time, we could not say
now. They could now. They can say no, to us. Which, you know, I have
a very open mind. I am not like a very, too strict like my parents.
But I still let them know that
some
Chinese way of educating and teaching the kids, the way that we are
teaching them, is better than the Westerners. But I would say not 100
percent --- at least, passed down through our ancestors to now---has
been proven to be good, so I think some of them they accept it, some
of them they do not because they thought that’s, that’s
ridiculous, that’s what they thought. I know (laughs) they
think it that way.
</p>
<p>Q:
Can you give me some examples of things you do that part of the
Chinese way of raising children?</p>
<p>WING:
We punish them, we will punish them, like what you call---this
country does not allow to do that. We hit them. We use the, what they
call the ruler or something to hit their butts. That’s what we
usually do. But, we try not to do that, because we thought that that
wasn’t that good either. To me, personally, that’s not
good. But at least, we had to let them know we have that kind of
penalty for the kids before. But they thought that’s
ridiculous. And we were not allowed to do that in this country. So I
would say that sometimes you do need something like this to help the
kids to understand rules and regulations.
</p>
<p>Q:
What are some other things? Can you think of any others?</p>
<p>WING:
We teach them to pay respect to their elders, parents, grandparents,
not only us, but people outside our families too. Which, in this
country the educational system to me, personally I think that they do
not teach this kind of moral thing than what we had before. They only
teach them knowledges in terms of books, in terms of computers, in
terms of mathematics, that’s it. They do not teach them how to
live in the society, how to live with other people, how to face other
people, that kind of thing. I don’t think they have enough
education like what we had before.
</p>
<p>Q:
I wanted to ask you, when you were deciding to go to college here,
were there any other options that you considered at that point, when
you were finished with high school, besides going to college?</p>
<p>WING:
No. I had a very strong will that I wanted to come to this country
for college. That’s the only way---one way street. I never
thought of other alternatives, because I love education, and I love
coming to this country. Of all the countries in the world, I have
considered, like Australia, New Zealand, England, Canada, I pick this
country. I like this country better.</p>
<p>
Q: Why?</p>
<p>WING:
I don’t know why. Because I have a feeling that this country
has a better education than other countries, which, when I saw, when
I read from newspapers about the Nobel Prize people, a lot of them
are from this country, so I was very influenced by those articles in
the newspaper.
</p>
<p>Q:
Were there any other things you remember seeing that made you think
that maybe life in America would be for you?</p>
<p>WING:
Yes, because at that time, as I said, because my family was so
strict, I at that time was a teenager, I need freedom. I want to be
free. But, I wanted to taste the freedom in this country also, which
I experienced for many years. I know that freedom is something but
you’ve got to make good use of the freedom. You just cannot
abuse it. That’s another thing. I want to leave my family. I
want to be free.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you abuse your freedom at all when you got here?<br><br>WING: No,
not at all. I am a very self-disciplined person. When I say
something, I will do it. When I promise somebody something, I will
deliver the promise. That’s why I---well, probably this is the
education from my family.
</p>
<p>Q:
Could you share some of your first impressions that you had when you
came here?
</p>
<p>WING:
First impressions?
</p>
<p>Q:
The first day that you got here.</p>
<p>WING:
Oh, the first day I got here. At that time, we stayed in Chinatown.
And when I know America, this country on TV, on newspaper, it wasn’t
like that. There’s a lot of high-rise buildings, you know. It’s
a very advanced country. How come the buildings in this country is so
old, and a lot of the buildings are like---we didn’t even have
that in Hong Kong. We had better living conditions than a lot of the
buildings here, a lot of the apartments here. And, it was like, to me
it’s like a totally different thing as what I have read in the
paper or on
the TV, so it was
not a good impression to me when I first came here. But after I find
out that a lot of the buildings had been---for so many years because
of the zoning problems, because of the---a lot of restrictions,
you’re not allowed to do anything. That’s why they keep
the way it was.
</p>
<p>But
in Hong Kong it’s different. Buildings that they are older than
20 years, they knock down and build high rises, more space for
people, so a lot of the buildings in Hong Kong are newer than here.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you know anyone when you first came here?</p>
<p>WING:
My sister was here at that time. I came here, I lived with my sister
for a few months, then I moved to New Jersey because I studied in New
Jersey.</p>
<p>Q:
So your sister and her family and friends, did they give you any
advice about what you’d have to do to make a life for yourself
here? Do you remember any conversations you had with people when you
first got here about Chinatown, or about life in the United States?</p>
<p>WING:
At that time, when I first came to this country was 1976, there
wasn’t too many Chinese at that time, as compared today.
There’s like ten times more than ’76, so it was more
quiet than what we have right now, less people than what we are right
now. It’s not exactly like what we are right now. What I’m
saying is, it’s not like Hong Kong. Now, it’s like 90
percent like Hong Kong. Before it’s like, it’s like
Chinatown, really a Chinatown. A lot of things I’ve seen is
very, very, funny as compared to same things that we had in Hong
Kong. Many people still live in that way. It’s different from
what I’ve seen in Hong Kong, so it’s very funny.</p>
<p>Q:
Like what?</p>
<p>WING:
The bowls are thicker. We had the very beautiful bowls that we would
have the rice, to eat on. The bowls. They’re very thick, and
it’s very Americanized. Something that, in daily life, that we
use is different from what we are using in Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was college like for you?</p>
<p>
WING: Difficult.
I work and study at the same time, and so, pretty tough to me. But I,
as I say, I have a very self-disciplined for myself, so I manage to
finish my college in three and a half years. I have no problem.</p>
<p>Q:
What did your parents think about you doing coming here?</p>
<p>WING:
When I told them that I’m coming to this country, they said
okay. They give me permission to come here.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you keep in touch with them after you were here?<br><br>WING: Oh,
yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you keep in touch with them?<br><br>WING: I wrote them
letters. At that time, telephone wasn’t that popular like what
we have right now. It was very expensive to call international calls.
It’s like three dollars per minute at that time. It’s
very expensive. So, only call---I only call my parents on the phone
during Chinese New Year’s, just once a year, because it’s
too expensive. I write, I wrote them letters.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you choose engineering?
</p>
<p>WING:
I was a science student. In Hong Kong, when you are in Form Three, or
Form Four, that’s tenth grade, you have to decide whether you
go to arts or science. I picked a science subject, so that’s
how I got into engineering field.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you enjoy studying that?</p>
<p>WING:
Oh, very much. I love engineering fields, I liked engineering
courses. I was a mechanical engineer. I worked as a mechanical
engineer for five years before I start my own business.
</p>
<p>Q:
So it sounds like you were very busy during college. When you did
have a little bit of spare time, what did
you do?</p>
<p>WING:
I didn’t have much spare time. When I have spare time, I study,
I work, I enjoy my college life very much. It was tough, but very
rewarding to me, you know, because I got my degree, I find my job.
Everything works out fine to me.</p>
<p>Q:
Was there anything that surprised you, or that was unexpected about
your life here?</p>
<p>WING:
Like what? I---</p>
<p>Q:
Anything, anything about you know, what American people were like, or
what---school?
</p>
<p>WING:
In school, nothing surprised me. Actually, the first two year of the
school, in the college, was not that hard to me, because a lot of the
subjects I learned before in Hong Kong. The third year, we had the
major subjects, that’s the year that’s the toughest year.
Third year. Junior is the toughest year for me. Senior is a lot, is a
bit easier, because the major subjects are what we studied before
applied to the labs and everything, so Junior is the toughest year. A
lot of new subjects to me that I never learned before. Mechanical
engineering subjects. That’s the year that I spent a lot of
time studying.</p>
<p>Other
than that, nothing special. Nothing surprised me. But about my
business, it surprised me that the government is not supporting the
industry. They are using---I think they betrayed the industry because
they used our industries to trade some other business or some other
thing from other countries, like they are selling high-tech to other
countries, and in returning they let them import the garment to the
country. It’s good and no good, you know?</p>
<p>Q:
So you’re married, is that right?</p>
<p>WING:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you meet your wife?<br><br>
WING: I met my wife in Hong Kong. She---my wife is my
brother-in-law’s niece. So we are, like, we knew each other
when she was in Hong Kong, when we met each other. So, when she came
to this country, then we met again and that’s how we got
married.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you keep in touch before she came here?<br><br>WING: Very rare,
because I was so busy, and I didn’t have time to---I only wrote
letters to her like three times, and that’s it.</p>
<p>Q:
Did she come here with the idea that you would get married, or did
you sort of---</p>
<p>WING:
No, she just came here, and then we met, and then, no we did not
expect that at that time.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was it about her that made you want to marry her?<br><br>WING:
Oh, my wife is a very strong-willed lady. She is pretty, she is nice,
she is hard-working, she works together with me when we had a
business together, and she almost like managed the whole business for
me internally, so I have time to do externally.
</p>
<p>Q:
When you were working as an engineer, what kinds of work did you do?</p>
<p>WING:
Design engineer. I worked in three different companies. The first
company, called the CE-Lummus in Bloomfield, New Jersey. It’s a
company that builds lots of petrol chemical plants, and I’m
working in the mechanical engineering department of that company. And
the next company I work for is a machine design company, designing
spot welding machine. The third company I work for is a filter
company. They make a lot of filters. It’s one of the largest
filter company in this country, called the Pall Corporation, in Long
Island.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you switch from job to job?<br><br>WING: If you don’t
switch, you don’t get paid better, at that time. You have
to---either you have to find a job that pay you better, or, if you
stay there, you don’t---the raise each year that they pay you
cannot catch up with
the job
that you switch. If you switch a job, you get a better pay.</p>
<p>Q:
So then you opened your own business, after five years of working as
an engineer?<br><br>WING: Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
What led you to make that decision?<br><br>WING: When I had my third
job, I was laid off by that company, and engineering was very good at
that time when I was graduated from college. After wards, it just
went down. Most of the engineering firms are laying off people, so I
was one of them, so that’s why. I got laid off at that time, so
I was without job for like about nine months. And during the nine
months I drove, like, a black car—they call it the
limousine---I drove a black car for nine months in order to make a
living, you know. That was before I opened up my business.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you get into---could you say a little bit about what kind of
business it was?</p>
<p>WING:
It’s a garment manufacturing business. I opened up a factory in
Chinatown, and I hired like about, at that time, when I just started
I hired about fifty, sixty people. And before I closed my business, I
hired more than 100 people.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you get the capital to start a business?<br><br>WING: My
brother-in-law helped me. He helped me---he was in the business at
that time, in the garment business before me. And he started his
business in 1977. I, when I got laid off, he said if I want to be in
the business he would help me. So he gave me the capital to open up
the business.
</p>
<p>Q:
What was the garment industry like at the time that you got into it?
</p>
<p>WING:
At that time, it’s a lot easier. When I say easier, it’s,
there were not too many competitions from offshore. Everything you
did was domestic. Not everything, I would say 95 percent are
domestic. Only like rarely to from the imports. As compared of today,
99 percent are from imports. Only one percent are domestic.
Maybe I’m exaggerate a little bit, but it’s
close---it has to be very close to that.
</p>
<p>Q:
What sorts of things did you make?</p>
<p>WING:
I make women’s clothing. Sportswear. Skirts, pants, you know,
those are the items that I made. And I made those items for Sears,
for JC Penny, for Wal-Mart or Kmart. A lot of big chain stores. And
those big chain stores now they bought from offshore. So we’ve
lost a lot of business domestically.</p>
<p>Q:
Was it hard to find workers?</p>
<p>WING:
In the beginning, yes, when I just started, in like, 85, it’s
not easy to find workers, because not too many new immigrants. In the
‘90s, starting from the ’90s, when there are a lot of new
immigrants coming from China, coming from Hong Kong, coming from a
lot of Southeast Asia countries, then it’s a lot easier to find
workers. What I mean, easier to find workers, doesn’t mean that
you can find a good worker. Good worker is difficult to find still.
Luckily, about 80 percent of my workers, when I closed down my
business, they will stay with me. A lot of them are with me for more
than ten years. They are very nice to me, and I’m very nice to
them, too, I believe. (laughs) We had a very good relationship.
Otherwise they would not stay with me for so many years.
</p>
<p>Q:
Could you tell me a little bit about the people who worked for you?
</p>
<p>WING:
Mostly ladies, because they are doing needleworks---</p>
<p>WING:
---a few men doing some kind of physical work. That’s why my
wife is taking care of the inside work. It’s easier to let
girls talk to girls, right? So I went outside and got the business.</p>
<p>Q:
Were your workers unionized?<br><br>WING: Yes. We were actually a
union shop. All our workers are union members. We belong to, at that
time it was ILGWU---International Ladies Garment Workers Union. Now
it’s called UNITE, Local 23-25.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you ever have any problems, any labor problems, during that time
you had the business?<br><br>WING: Internally, no. Externally, yes.
Not because of our workers, but because of the external problems,
like the union problem, the, some kind of outside influence as, not
because we had a problem, we never had a problem. I have---most of
the time I have enough work for my workers, I pay them well, I pay
them on time, I have no problem with them, and that’s why
they’ve been with me for so many years. A lot of shops, not
because they are not good, but because a lot of times they could not
do the paperwork and everything accordingly, so a lot of the workers
they may not like the shops. That’s why. I would say, 99
percent is the management of the business. If you manage your
business well, everything’s fine. It doesn’t really
matter you are union or non-union, or, you know, anything.</p>
<p>Q:
So what do you think it was about your shop that made 80 percent of
your workers stay with you?</p>
<p>WING:
Stable. I have a very stable work supply for them, and I have, I pay
them very stable. I don’t pay them like, this week something,
next week something. Everything is like, on a very good track. So, if
you have a good system, everybody will follow. That’s how I
think.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was an average wage? Do you remember what your workers would
make when you first opened in the 80s?</p>
<p>WING:
Let’s see, I have to think. At that time, in ’85, I
believe the rate was three dollars something, I don’t remember
exactly, and then four dollars something, and then---right now, it’s
about six dollar ninety cents per hour or seven dollars, something
like that. Don’t quote me, because I’ve been out of
business for four years now. Probably now it’s about seven
dollars an hour. Union rates. The federal rate is $5.15 an hour.
State rate is $4.75.
</p>
<p>Q:
So you didn’t pay by the piece, but by the hour?</p>
<p>WING:
We pay by the piece, but we convert the piece to hour, so they got
paid more than that.
</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you end up having to close the business?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>WING:
I could not compete with the importers. Let me give an example. For a
piece of, let’s say for a pair of pants like this. If I have to
make it here, just the labor alone may cost you, let’s say,
five dollars. If you buy a pair of pants from China, from Sri Lanka,
from India, from whatever Southeast Asian country, five dollars is
including everything, with the material. How can I compete with them?
With us, just the labor alone is five dollars, so we have no way to
compete with them. The only thing, the only reason that there’re
still some shops still around because we have what they call the
quick-response system. We can make something that the offshore people
cannot do. Time. We have a shorter period of time to finish something
that the manufacturers want us to do, which the offshore manufacturer
could not do it. Like we can do it in something, two or three weeks,
or even a week. If you do something offshore, you cannot make it in
about three months. You know, so that’s the only advantage we
have. That’s why there are still some shops around.
</p>
<p>Q:
You were president of the Garment Manufacturers Association---</p>
<p>WING:
I was.</p>
<p>Q:
Twice?</p>
<p>WING:
Two times.</p>
<p>Q:
How did that come about?</p>
<p>WING:
It’s an association that gathers all the---our member actually
is the shop owner. We have, like, every year we have a function, an
annual dinner or gala, we exchange some information, and we have
meetings every month, like I’m going to the meeting later on.
They still have me as a board member because they want me to have
some input to the Association, which I appreciate them.
</p>
<p>But
every year we had a fundraising, not actually a fundraising, we just
get some money to maintain the association, and that’s it. We
are not making money from that dinner or anything. And people are
participating very well, every year. Even though, right now, the
economy isn’t that good, they are still supporting the
Association, because this is the only association in garment industry
locally in our community. There were a few
before, but they could not last like what we last.
Our association is like, 45 years now.</p>
<p>Q:
What were some of the things that you had to do as the president?
What were some of your duties?</p>
<p>WING:
We negotiate the contract every three years with the union. We try to
get the best benefit to our association members, as well as the
workers. It sounds like very contradiction, but it’s not. The
reason being that the workers actually, we face them everyday. Even
though they’re union members, we want to get the best benefits
out of the union for them. And as an association president, we have
like a lot of board members, then we have a negotiation team, to
negotiate with the union every three years about the contract. And we
go to some other association or some other states to get some
resources back to New York. That’s what we’re doing.
</p>
<p>Q:
How would you do that?
</p>
<p>WING:
We have a lot of like Garment Industry Development Corporation. They
have an office down on Centre Street. We work very closely with them,
and even though we have a contract with a union, we work very closely
for the union to try to get some work back from other states, or back
from offshore, which did help a little, but not very successful
because bottom line is price---we cannot compete with offshores. But
at least they will give us something to do here, and if they need
something very, like quick response, they would stay with us. They
would not go to some other places.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
What sorts of things were you negotiating with the union over, during
the time that you were president of the Garment Manufacturers
Association?</p>
<p>WING:
Mostly on the benefits for the workers and what the shop owners, our
members--- Health benefit is the most important thing, because every
member, every union member, that is, every worker in our shops, they
need health benefit, which is getting more and more expensive, and
they could not, a lot of their workers could not afford it. And now,
a lot of the workers has to co-pay, which is a very heavy burden for
them, which I, when I was president of the association, I tried to
have the union make them not to do the co-pay, but very unsuccessful,
and now they try to have the shop owner do the co-pay for them, which
is very unfair to the shop owner either, because it’s very
expensive overhead for the shop owners. We’re talking about,
about two hundred some dollars a month per worker. It’s very
expensive.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Where was your factory specifically located?<br><br>WING: Not too far
from here. Located on Mott Street. Now the building has been
converted to a medical building. Half of it, not the whole building.
Because that building is like two buildings, but they have a big
building by knocking down the walls years ago, it’s a very old
building, and over 10,000 square feet per floor. I was on the third
floor. Now they have half of the building became a professional
building, and the other half is still garment manufacturing. And I
don’t think they have any more lease, and they are only working
like month to month.</p>
<p>Q:
When you closed the business, what happened to the people who were
working there? How did they react?</p>
<p>WING:
Some of my workers, they cried. They would never have thought of me
closing down the business, because I had been supplying a very stable
work source for them, so they, the money had been very stable for so
many years. They never thought of going out to work for some other
people. So, it was a tough time for a lot of the workers, too.<br><br>Q:
Do you know what kind of work they were able to find
afterwards?<br><br>WING: Afterwards, some of them work for other
factories, some of them changed their professions to become, how do
you put it, medical help or something like that, I don’t know
what they call it, they have to be trained by the CPC
(Chinese-American Planning Council) or Manpower, to become qualified
for this job.
</p>
<p>Q:
Nurse practitioner?</p>
<p>WING:
Something like yeah, home helper, or whatever, to help the seniors.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you ever see any of them?<br><br>
</p>
<p>WING:
Oh, yeah. Even now, I met a lot of my previous workers on the street.
And they still want me to open up again, but I say I cannot do it.
Not because of me alone, just because of the economy, because of the
competition, that we cannot compete with the
offshores. So I couldn’t do it.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you decide that that was the moment when you needed to close
the shop?<br><br>WING: At that time, when I closed my business, I
still make money. I’m not losing money, but I figure out if I
still want to do it, I make some projections. I will be losing money
maybe in about six months. So I said if I keep on doing this for
another six months I will be losing a lot of money. So I would rather
do it now than six months later. So, which, I think I make a very
good decision. Right now a lot of people are, a lot of the shop
owners are crying for what they are doing. Not because they don’t
have work. Sometimes they have work, but no workers. Sometimes they
have workers, no work. It’s very difficult to make the
adjustment.</p>
<p>Q:
What were your options, then, after you closed the factory?<br><br>WING:
I was looking for some other business, but at that time, when I
closed my business, it was in 1999, and the economy was going down.
At that time, the economy wasn’t look good, I did not decide to
do anything yet, so I like, stayed home for two years, did not do
anything, I just see which is the right way for me to go to. Which
business is going to be better for me to get into. So, about a year
and a half, two years ago, I started to work again, but not business.
I’m working for another business now. Liquor industry.</p>
<p>Q:
And what do you do?<br><br>WING: I was working as a sales rep for a
distributor, but right now I’m working for a supplier.</p>
<p>Q:
And how did you pick that?<br><br>WING: I like liquor, cognac, very
much. That’s how I got to know a lot of the people in the
industry. And they referred me to some of the job openings over
there. I find it a pretty interesting industry.</p>
<p>Q:
You’ve been involved in the community in all different kinds of
ways. You talked about being involved in the Garment Manufacturing
Association. Could you talk about some of the other things that
you’ve done?</p>
<p>
WING: I
was---when Speaker Peter Vallone was the councilman of New York City
I was one of the Asian American Advisory Council member of Peter
Vallone. The job of that is to bring messages from our community back
to the City Council. Tell them what we expect the city council to do,
and what we want and what we need from the city. This is one of the
positions that I had when I was president of the association. And I
happened to know of the Museum of Chinese in the Americas, and I find
it is very educational and very good for the next generation to know
about the Chinese heritage, and so I you know, support this Museum of
Chinese in the Americas as well.
</p>
<p>Q:
When you were on the Asian American Advisory Committee for Peter
Vallone, what sorts of issues were you dealing with? What sorts of
messages did you bring to him?<br><br>WING: I remember at that time
there was some street cleaning problem that we tried to bring it to
the city, and some parking meter problem, because a lot of parking,
there are, like, no place for the people to park in Chinatown, that
will cause a lot of people not to come to Chinatown and have a lot of
tourists not coming to Chinatown. So we tell the city to give us a
lot of, more parking space, more people to direct the traffic, to
make it easier for the people to come to here, and help the
restaurant and help the other business to grow in Chinatown. That’s
all. You know, most of the issues of the community.
</p>
<p>Q:
And were you successful in getting what the neighborhood needed?</p>
<p>WING:
Sort of, yes. Pretty good. Like before, I would say before 1995 or
something like that, Canal Street they allow to have people park
there, and blocking the traffic. Yes. Now no more. You are not
allowed to park on Canal Street. Even after seven o’clock.
Which is good, I would say, because you can have a lot of traffic
flow thoroughly, not staying there and polluting the whole community.</p>
<p>Q:
You were also on the Community Board. Is that right?</p>
<p>WING:
That was in 1993, I remember. I was on the CB Three, Community Board
Three for about two years.</p>
<p>Q:
And what was that experience like?</p>
<p>
WING: We had
vender problems, venders, you know the people that are selling, the,
what they call the---a lot of the, maybe the souvenir on the streets
so we want to group them together and put them in Roosevelt Park---is
it Roosevelt Park? Yeah---and, but very unsuccessful, because they
only been there for like about a few months, and then they have to be
relocated or, so, I feel there is very too much politics involved, so
I quit. I cannot tell them---I told them what it is; I hope they can
follow my way of doing it, but I find out that it’s not that
simple. Something that we cannot just say and they will do it, so I
will say, it’s not something I can manage, so I quit and I’m
not going to be a member anymore.
</p>
<p>Q:
So on the day of September 11, 2001, where were you? How did you find
out what happened?<br><br>WING: I was home. That morning, I was
trying to drive to work, and before I left, my sister called me. She
said, “There is a plane hit the World Trade Center.” I
said, “What?” And I turn on the television. I saw the
smoke coming out from one of the towers that was hit, and then I
watch the TV for like a few minutes---another plane, hit, hit the
building. It’s like watching a movie, but it’s real.
There was something that have a very big impact to me, because World
Trade Center is like a landmark of our city. And I’ve been like
New Yorkers, and I love New York. It’s like something that---I
could not believe it, so--- I almost cried, you know? It’s like
something I cannot accept. Two days, I watch TV, I didn’t go to
work. Like, you don’t know what you’re doing, you know?
It’s very, very, upset.
</p>
<p>Q:
What were you thinking about as far as Chinatown as you were watching
that happen?<br><br>WING: The first thing I did was, I called a lot
of friends in Chinatown. Tell them to leave as soon as possible.
Because I have a lot of friends, they are working in Chinatown. A lot
of friends that still have business in Chinatown. I tell them, don’t
stay here, go home. I know there’s something---if something
like this happen, it is terribly wrong. So, luckily, in the
beginning, the phone still working. But after awhile, the phone was
not working, and then, only the cell phone was working, and after a
while---even the cell phone is not working! So it’s very, like,
to me it was like the end of the world at that time. Very
frustrating, very, very upset. A lot of my friends, they could not
get home on time, they had to stay in Manhattan for like another day
before they could go to their home. It’s like, Chinatown was
like totally paralyzed. Not only Chinatown, but even up to, the whole
Manhattan, whole New York, even the whole country, for that two day
was like doing nothing. <br><br>
</p>
<p>
Q: You have
children, right?
</p>
<p>WING:
I have two children.</p>
<p>Q:
Two children. How did you explain to them what had happened? How did
they find out about it?<br><br>WING: Oh, they knew it through school.
School, I think they have television, and the teacher, you know, tell
them what happened.
</p>
<p>Q:
How did they feel about it?<br><br>WING: First they---I don’t
really know how they feel, but what I know is the kids are very
patriotic to the country. That’s what I understand.</p>
<p>Q:
What do you mean by patriotic?<br><br>WING: Patriotic to the country?
What I mean is like my son, he is very Americanized. He’s like,
you know, everything is USA, so that’s why, it’s very,
it’s a lot of impact to these kids, too, because it’s
something they’ve been seeing, they’ve been there before,
and now no more. I would say the kids are also very upset about that
too.
</p>
<p>Q:
Do you feel patriotic?<br><br>
</p>
<p>Q:
So you mentioned that your son was feeling very patriotic, or is a
patriotic person. How about you, are you patriotic?<br><br>WING: Yes.
But when I just came to the country, and I, to me, it’s---everything
was new to me, but as time goes by, I’ve been in this country
for so many years. I’ve been like, personally I’ve felt
that I already naturalized to this country, and that’s why I
think---and I’m an American citizen now, so I think I am a
patriotic person. But I don’t know if the country look at it to
me that way too, you know? I don’t think they think it that
way. But, I don’t know. But as far as I’m concerned, I
think I am very patriotic to the country.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
When you say that you’re not sure if the country thinks of you
as patriotic, what do you mean by that?<br><br>WING: Because, well,
as I said, this is an immigration country. Everybody, except the
Indian, the red Indian, they are the domestic local people. Everybody
came from outside countries, like Irish, Scotland, England, or
European country, Asian country, everybody come from all different
places. But the people that control this country now, they---only
controlled by a small group of people. Whatever they think is right,
is right, is wrong is wrong. So, of course, I think it’s more
up to them to think whether you are really a patriotic person or not.
It is not up to what I think. It is up to them. That’s what I
mean.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did September 11 effect or change the way you feel patriotic at all?
</p>
<p>WING:
It make me more patriotic than before. Because I think they should
not---I mean, the people that they attack the World Trade Center,
they should not do that. This is nothing to do with the innocent
people. If you are not agree with the government, you fight with the
government, not with the innocent people, which I think it’s
just very, very, wrong, very, very bad thing that they have been
done.</p>
<p>Q:
You own real estate in Chinatown also, is that right?<br><br>WING:
Yes.
</p>
<p>Q:
How did you first start getting into that?<br><br>WING: Because I
want to diversify my investment, to begin with, so when I was in my
garment industry business, I tried to diversify my investment in real
estate in Chinatown, and at that time I did not have any, like
intention, or anything like---just wanted to do some investment,
that’s all. And I found out that right now that prove that to
be a very good investment, because all the real estate has been
growing tremendously in the last two-three years, especially in early
2000, the year 2000. It’s like booming. And right now it’s
still good, but not as good as like a year ago. As far as the rental
concerned, after 9/11 I was totally affected by the incident of 911.
Because all my tenants moved out gradually, and my building was like
vacant for more than twenty months. And little by little, I had my
new tenants back, and right now, I only have 60 percent of my
building rent. I still
need
more tenants. But I still have to pay my real estate tax, I still
have to pay my---everything. I applied for some assistance from the
government. All I got is about six thousand dollars. Not even one
month of my mortgage payment. I pay my mortgage like about twelve
thousand dollars a month.
</p>
<p>Q:
Where did you apply for the assistance?<br><br>WING: I applied
through the one on Williams Street. I forgot the name of it. There
are two places where you can do some application. One is on Williams
and one is on Rector (Street). I did it through the Williams Street.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you hear that you might---that the government, or that
different organizations, were giving out aid?</p>
<p>WING:
There are a lot of non-profit organizations, they give out brochures,
they had some information that they give out on radio, on Chinese
radio too. So I called and find out I am qualified for this. So I
went to get an application and applied for it. But I didn’t
know that, that’s the only, only like six thousand I got for
over twenty months suffering.
</p>
<p>Q:
How did they come up with that figure?<br><br>WING: They said two
percent of my income. That’s how they got that figure.</p>
<p>Q:
When you went to apply for the aid, what was the place like, were
people friendly and helpful, or was it really difficult to get
through the paperwork?<br><br>WING: They were very friendly, very
helpful. But the only thing is, the decision, and the amount of money
to be qualified for who, and for what, you know, that’s not
decided by those people. That is decided by somebody else. And by
looking at those applications, you don’t really know whether
these people are really the sufferers or not. That’s what I
thought. I told them that I lost a lot of income because of that, and
they only say that because you are not---as a landlord, you are not
really a business over there, I thought, that’s wrong, because
I do business in the real estate business, this is business. They
said it’s not. So, they said only qualify for about two percent
of my total annual income. That’s how they got the figure.</p>
<p>
Q: I have to
change the tape.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
You were talking about the aid that you got after September 11. I’m
curious---the friends that you have in Chinatown, business people
that you know or individuals, what sorts of stories have you heard
about being trying to get aid?</p>
<p>WING:
Not that many, because I wasn’t involved too much about this,
but I heard the people that they live in this area, residents, they
get more than I got, as a business person. I don’t know how
they justify it, who is going to get more or less or how much. I
really don’t understand how they get a figure like this, and
for our business, and, that you lost in this period of time. We are
not asking for more---we are just asking for, like, for example the
real estate tax---I just want them to give me like some time to pay.
I paid, like about two weeks late; they charged me the interest for
two hundred dollars and change. They still charge me for that. Not
because I don’t want to pay, but because I had a hard time to
pay at that time. I have no tenants, and I have to get the money from
someplace else. Out of my own pocket. So it took me a while to, you
know, to do this. It was like a very hard period of time for me at
that time.</p>
<p>Now
it is a lot better, because I have my new tenants over there, and
everything works out okay. At least I don’t have to lose money.
I’m breaking even now. But I got to make up something that I
lost for the twenty months that I have my building vacant at that
time. So it’s very, very difficult. I hope the government can
do something to those business owner in the area. And I’m from
south of Canal, which is the secondary major damage area. And there
is something that I don’t understand which is I don’t
understand why they don’t give us, like my new tenants, give us
some leeway or some assistance to my new tenants, because my new
tenants are opening up a business over there, and they have to go to
Department of Building to apply a lot of license, or you know, doing
the renovations, things like that, and the Department of Building
they give them a lot of hard time. I really don’t understand
why they do that. They are bringing business to this area, and make
it prosperous again. And they try to give them hard time---what kind
of a psychological thinking is that, you know? I think this is too
bureaucratic. That’s it.
</p>
<p>Q:
You’ve been involved in politics before, and you know, trying
to get the community’s concerns heard by the
government. Did you ever consider complaining, or
trying to change the way they were dealing with the aid?<br><br>WING:
I don’t think I, as a person, can do anything about it. But I
did talk to a lot of non-profit organization people, that I know of,
but it doesn’t seem to be like any successful. I only just
talked to them, you know. I just talked to them about if cases like
what I have maybe a lot of people, have a very similar situation like
what I have, so what should we do? Nobody could give me an answer.
</p>
<p>Q:
Who did you talk to?<br><br>WING: I talked to people from CPC, you
know, those local non-profit organization. They supposedly have to
help those local community people. <br><br>Q: Who were your tenants
before September 11?<br><br>WING: Before September 11 I had
people---my tenant, one of my tenants is Pearl Paint, they use my
place as a office and warehouse, and I have a second and third floor
was garment industry, garment factory.
</p>
<p>Q:
And now?<br><br>WING: And now, my first floor is a restaurant and
bar. Second floor in a training center. Ironically, it’s a
place for people to get job re-training, after the effect of the
9/11. This is the institute that you have to go to. One of the
institutes. And the third floor is artists that is making sculptures,
those sorts of things, for big companies. <br><br>Q: How do the rents
compare?<br><br>WING: About the same that I rent before, because the
situation wasn’t that good. If I insist to get more rents, I
don’t think I would rent it out today. So I lower my rent like
tremendously. A little bit better than before. That’s all. But
I give them a lot of free rents, a lot of---many months. Like, some
of them I give them like six, seven months free rent, in order to get
them to stay here. You have to do something, otherwise, I don’t
have any advantage.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
What kind of a restaurant is it that’s opening?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>WING:
The owner is three partners. One of them from India, one from Turkey,
and the other one, I never seen them. He is in Florida, and he is in
garment importing business. (laughs) So they are opening a restaurant
and bar over there, because that’s the area I think it’s
very good for the, they call it TriBeCa, it’s very good for the
yuppies, to stay, hanging around after work, and happy hours. So I
think it will be helping the area to become more prosperous again.
</p>
<p>Because
right now, right after 9/11 was like a dead city, nobody wants to go
there. Now, people start to, little by little, going back to the
TriBeCa area again. I can see that, you know? And during the off
hour, like from five to seven, a lot of people kind of stopping by a
bar, having a drink, or have something to eat over there, very good,
you know the environment is getting better and better. That’s
why I think the Housing Department has to give the tenants not only
mine, the people who want to do business over there, some kind of
help, and not give them too much hard time.
</p>
<p>Q:
And where exactly is that building?<br><br>WING: I’m sorry?<br><br>
</p>
<p>Q:
And where exactly is that building?<br><br>WING: The building is on
52 Walker, two blocks south of Canal. (coughs)</p>
<p>Q:
Want some water?<br><br>WING: No, I’m fine. Probably because of
the air.</p>
<p>Q:
What do you think the government or non profits could have done
better, to help the people in Chinatown and businesses in Chinatown
after September 11?<br><br>
</p>
<p>
WING: I don’t
want to have any offense to anybody, but they could have done a lot
better job than this. There’s a lot of money out there for, to
help the people, for people that has been suffered from 9/11, but I
don’t think the money has been allocated correctly. A lot of
the money has been wasted, and a lot of the money has been sitting
there, doing nothing. Because---I don’t know, whatever reason,
either bureaucratic, or something, they just do not want to give it
out. That’s why, by the end of the deadline, they want to rush
the money out to whoever that is qualified, even though they are
really not qualified.
</p>
<p>Something
like, in my situation, I think I should get at least something to
compensate, or some kind of grants, or some kind of, you know, loans
or something, to help me for this hard period of time, but I didn’t
get anything. Or, I get something, but it’s not enough for me
to maintain a month, so from my own opinion is they should really do
something more personal, instead of just give them a very brief
review and they giving out the money. I don’t think that’s
correct. And I heard a lot of cases, a lot of instances that they
have to get the money back from the people that they gave it to,
which is something that they did not do in the right place to begin
with.
</p>
<p>Q:
The first phase was giving out aid to people. Now there’s all
this money coming into New York for reconstruction. If you had some
of that money to use in Chinatown, what would you do?<br><br>WING:
For the community?<br><br>Q: Yes.</p>
<p>WING:
To improve the business, you have to do something like advertising
and make to clean up the streets, to direct the traffic better, and
have all the restaurants, all the business people to participate. A
lot of campaigns: this month is for restaurant, this month is for
banking, or this one is for finance, or you know, different business
center has a special for a month, right? And I don’t think you
have to spend a lot of money to do something like this, because those
business people, if they participate, I think they will be very
willing to give some money too. So between the government, and the
business, and the community people, they can participate into the
program with the help of the non-profit organization, I think they
can do a good job. Each month have something different for the whole
year, and then have some advertising, not only to attract the local
people, but to attract tourists from out of state, even out of the
country. It would help to boom up the---not only in this area, but
the vicinity area as well, like Wall Street. Less and less people
come into New York because of the tax, because of
the instance of 9/11. You have to bring back the
people to come to this area, to this city. Right after 9/11 the hotel
rate was so low, now it’s slightly picking up again.
</p>
<p>But
before 9/11 the hotel rate was very good. I heard they were booking
like over 90 percent in the whole city, so you see the difference.
And between that 9/11, the two years, a lot of business went, out of
business, a lot of restaurants or some other business, they are
totally gone. Now, you give them a chance to come back again, you
give them a chance to do business again. You need to help them. I
think the city, the federal, the state, they should do something, not
only to New York, Chinatown, but to the whole city.
</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think there are any organizations, or even any individuals in
Chinatown who could organize or lead or advocate for something like
that?<br><br>WING: It’s---I believe it’s not individual,
or one organization or two organizations to do it. It’s a group
effort. Everybody has to participate.</p>
<p>Q:
I was asking you about who in Chinatown could possible lead or
organize an effort to do some redevelopment or whatever, and you’re
saying it has to be a group effort.</p>
<p>WING:
Yes, but, I’ve got to add something with the two largest
organization. Not non-profit, but they are the community
organizations. One is called the CCBA (Chinese Consolidated
Benevolent Association), and the other one is the American Fujianese
Association. These are the two biggest community associations in
Chinatown. And they have a lot of influence to many people here. And
I think they should do the lead of the functions that we just
mentioned.
</p>
<p>Q:
Would you ever consider getting involved with something like
that?<br><br>WING: If possible, yeah. I’d be involved, not a
problem. I would do my best.</p>
<p>Q:
I remember you talking in the first interview we did about how a lot
of the people who were here when you first came were here to make
money and get out and weren’t really involved in the community.
You, who came
at that time,
have done all kinds of community work. What is it about you that
makes you get involved in that way?<br><br>WING: A lot of people they
don’t live in this community. They only work here. They only
make money from the community, and then they leave. I’ve been
living in the community for many, many years, and before I move, the
reason I move is because I need my kids to live in a better
environment. Just me and my wife, we didn’t care about that
really. I live in Chinatown for more than fifteen years. And then, I
believe that if you are making money from a community, not only here,
whatever community that you’re living in, you should give back
something to the community, in terms of money, in terms of work, in
terms of charitable functions or anything, anything that you can
possibly think of, I think you should do something, work something,
pay back to the community, because what you are making, the money is
from the community, so this is, as I said before, something like our
education from Chinese way. You do something you’ve got to pay
back something to, you know, whoever helped you.
</p>
<p> Q:
Why do you think Chinatown hasn’t gotten the same amount of
money or attention as other neighborhoods that have been effected by
September 11?
</p>
<p>WING:
They did not get as much money like the other neighborhood? I really
don’t know, but I think probably there are too many chiefs, no
Indians. Too many people applied for the same money, and nobody like
of the leader of the community to do the same thing. So it’s
not focused enough. Too many people doing the same thing. They just
can’t give the money to---certain money to this association.
They’ve got to give it to all of them. So that is why the money
is like spread out.</p>
<p>Q:
Can you talk a little bit more about some of the reasons why you
aren’t so actively involved in politics now as you were in the
past?<br><br>WING: At that time, I was in the business, and I
thought, I hoped that politicians, politics and business, should go
hand in hand in order to make your business better, in order to make
your community better, in order to help the people in the community
better. Yes. Sometimes they will help. But a lot of politicians they
change every four years. Sometimes they can help you, but after four
years, they can’t do anything, because they are not in the
position anymore. So it makes me very frustrated sometimes.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Like
I was the advisory council member of Speaker Vallone before, now
Speaker Vallone is no longer with the city council. So whatever that
we built up before is waste. So I think it’s like very
difficult to have a good follow through thing to make the community
better. So if you have to do something like this you have to have
like a group of people, professionals to do it full time. It’s
a full time job. It’s not something that we are doing it part
time, can manage or can achieve for the community.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you find that politicians, while they were in office, were
responsive to the needs of Chinatown?<br><br>WING: It depends on the
individuals. Some do, some don’t. Some politicians are good.
Some politicians they are only looking for votes and money. Some
politicians they really do the job. I would say it all depends on
individuals. <br><br>Q: I wonder if you could think of any specific
examples of challenges that you faced, or that you saw in getting
involved in politics and getting your voice heard that way?<br><br>WING:
Like what?<br><br>Q: Any specific instances where there was something
that you, or an organization that you were working for were trying to
achieve and weren’t able to.
</p>
<p>WING:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
What were some of the obstacles? What was hard about it?</p>
<p>WING:
We had a hearing in City Council about the garment industry, about
five years ago. I was involved. As a matter of fact, I was one of the
speakers. Our executive director, me, and president at Brooklyn
Apparel Association, a good friend of ours. We had a hearing at City
Council, talking about the garment industry effecting the economy,
and everything, to the community.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And
we make this arrangement through a city councilman, Jerome O’Donovan.
He was the councilman from
Staten
Island, and he used to be committee chair of economic development for
the city council; that’s why we want him to do something for
us, which, he is a very responsive person, that he respond to us, and
he arrange a hearing for us. We appreciate that. And I don’t
know whether it will help to other government officials to understand
more of what we say, but at least we did something. This is one of
the major things that we achieved.
</p>
<p>Q:
Can you think of any instances where you weren’t able to
achieve what you were trying to do, or you weren’t able to get
a response from politicians?<br><br>WING: This is not, one or two
politicians can help. This is like, something that I think the
decision by the top country people, like, maybe the congressman, or
maybe the senators, that they make all these decisions. So whatever
that we said, or whatever that we told them during the hearing, they
just used it as a record. And, you know, the people that make the
decision when they look at it, they may only not agree with what we
have been saying to them, so I don’t know whether it helps or
not, but at least we did something to get their attentions----that’s
all we want to do, that’s all. I know it’s difficult to
get their attention, but at least we did something right.<b> </b>
</p>
<p>Q:
And when was it that you did that?</p>
<p>WING:
About five years ago, at City Council.
</p>
<p>Q:
What do you think the future of the garment industry in Chinatown
holds?<br><br>WING: There is no future in this industry at all. What
I mean is, because there is no comparison between the labor price in
this country and the labor price in all the South American,
Caribbean, Asian countries. We cannot compete with them. There will
be less and less people working in the industry, domestically. There
will be more and more people working for importers. So, I would say
this is like a sunset industry. There will be still some people
staying in the business. As I said before, the reason why they stay
is because they need people to do domestically for some quick
turn-around goods. So, maybe five percent of what we have right now.
</p>
<p>Q:
I know that the garment industry has been for a long time sort of the
backbone of the Chinatown economy. What do you think will fill that
void, what do you think will happen to Chinatown? How’s it
going to change?<br>
<br>WING:
Well, Chinese people are very flexible. They have the garment
industry, they work for the garment industry. If the garment
industry’s gone, they will do something else. I don’t see
any problem. But the only thing is, they need some---in transition
state, they need some help from the government, to, let’s say,
as I said, like the other professions, they need some kind of a
training in order to get the license or whatever to go to the other
professions. I think, we will survive, but it will be better for them
to survive if the government can give them a little bit of help.
</p>
<p>Q:
What other kinds of help do you think the government might be able to
give, besides training?</p>
<p>WING:
Create more jobs, you know. Let’s say, if there are some other
industry that they need to help from the government, help them. For
example, the tourist industry. This is one of the main sources of
income for the whole community. So, give them a little bit of help.
Give them a little promotion. I think, you know, if you have more
tourists come to New York, we pay more tax to the government, so it’s
like, it’s not a one-way street, it’s a two-way street.
The government will make something, and the people will make
something, so I think it’s a good idea.
</p>
<p>Q:
We were talking a little bit before about patriotism, and what it
means to be patriotic, to you, and I’m curious, as an
immigrant, during a time when immigration sort of had a bad name, or
there were a lot of changes in immigration policy in the United
States, making it harder for people to come here, did you feel that
any of those public sentiments impacted on you, personally?</p>
<p>WING:
Oh, yeah. Even though I’m a citizen, I think we are like a
secondary citizen. We are not like the same level of a citizen as
those people that originated in this country, or they were born in
this country, because we are naturalized. At least, from what I think
is our education, from Chinese education, telling us that if the
country did something to you, you have to be, you know, good to the
country. I’ve been getting an education from this country, and
I think I’ve learned a lot and I got a lot from this country, I
need to pay back to the country. That’s what I think patriotism
is.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you ever feel, sort of, less welcome after September 11, when
people were feeling---I think America felt a little bit more closed
right after that, to some people. Did you feel that at all?<br>
<br>WING: Yes. They are more---closer than before,
and people are like more willing to help each other than before.
Especially right after 9/11. The NYPD people, they are much, much
nicer than before. I had a feeling, they don’t just give out
summons and like that. They will let you go, sometimes. It’s
like a thing, a feeling and environment that you never had here
before. Never! At that time, it’s like people are very willing
to help each other. People can do whatever people want. There is no
boundaries between ethnic groups. At that time, it’s like one
of the best times, in terms of human relationships.</p>
<p>Q:
How about since then, has that changed at all?</p>
<p>WING:
Changed back to the before 9/11 environment. Well, at least we know
that all human beings can do something like what I said before. It’s
not something that they were born to that.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you ever thought about running for public office? For elected
office?</p>
<p>WING:
I don’t think I’m qualified for that. It’s good to
give a lot of advices or a lot of my opinion to the elected
officials. I don’t think I can be one of the officials to run
the---you know, I’m not interested in that.<br><br>Q: Have you
ever supported particular campaigns, or particular---?</p>
<p>WING:
A few. We supported quite a few City Councilmen. We support (Governor
George E.) Pataki when he, second term, when he ran for the governor,
we support councilwoman Kathryn Freed our local councilwoman, when
she ran for councilwoman, and when she ran for, what was the
position, I forgot---public advocate. She lost. This time, she ran
for one of the judges. I don’t know whether she won or not, but
I vote for her. I believe she won. Another one is Jerome O’Donovan.
We supported him financially, because we are not in the district, and
we supported Mark Green, when he ran for mayor. What else? We
supported (Rudolph W.) Giuliani, and we supported (David Norman)
Dinkins.
</p>
<p>Q:
When you say, “we” who are you talking about?<br><br>WING:
Our association.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
The Garment Manufacturers Association?<br><br>WING: Yes. Because I am
not doing those jobs as an individual. We did it as a group of
people.</p>
<p>Q:
I remember you saying before that you had had some experience as part
of the Garment Manufacturers Association in talking to politicians
and deciding who to support and trying to let them know what your
concerns were. Could you talk a little bit about those experiences
now?</p>
<p>WING:
Yes. When, I believe it was in 1986, was it ‘80? That’s
the term that Dinkins running for the mayor position. There is
another gentleman, he was the head of the MTA (Metropolitan
Transportation Authority) before---I forgot his name. We supported
him to run for the mayor. But he lost in the primary. The reason why
we supported him is---ah, I remember his name: Dick Ratrich. Richard
Ratrich. He ran for the position, our whole association supported
him. He is a person that nobody know him at that time. But he was the
head of the MTA before, commissioner of the MTA. We don’t know
why we support him, because our president before, the former
president, he said he is a guy that can help our community, he can
help the voice of our community, if elected as a mayor, he will help
us, that’s what he said.</p>
<p>At
that time, I’m just like a new guy, in the political---I don’t
know what I’m doing. But we supported him anyway. And, he lost
but we had a very good experience, we know that if we want to support
somebody, we have to be in a group, not as an individual. That’s
the experience that we had. It was very successful, though, even
though we lost.
</p>
<p>Q:
In what way was it successful?<br><br>WING: We had fundraising for
him, and like over 800 people turn out. Which is very good. That
means, we had our ability to arouse the attention of the community,
which is one of the things that we learned at that fundraising. And
from then on, we know better how to do a fundraising, and how to
choose candidates to support.
</p>
<p>Q:
What do you think that the government could do right now to support
the garment industry?<br>
<br>WING:
It’s difficult. Because they already did something that cannot
be changed. It’s like a one-way street. You cannot go back.
For example, the government had the NAFTA, the North American Free
Trade Agreement, they already have that, that hurt our industry. They
have, what they call the 806-807 agreement, it’s between the
Caribbean and this country. It’s cut in this country and make
over there. So it’s also had a very bad impact to our
industry.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So
something like that they already did, and they already had this kind
of agreement with a lot of countries. In return they have some other
trade with them, for high-tech or for computers or whatever. But, I
think if they want to help this industry, right now I think they have
to at least give some percentage back to the people to do in this
country. So that they can have better employment for a lot of people.
This industry helps employ, when they are in peak time, over a
million people in the city. Directly and indirectly related to the
industry. Over a million people. Right now, maybe a hundred thousand,
two hundred thousand? A lot less than before. Many big manufacturers,
they went out of business. They were very, very, big before, but they
are nobody now. It’s sad, but that’s the way
history---it’s like a history. That’s the trend, of the
history
</p>
<p>Some
industry goes down, some industry goes up, you know.</p>
<p>Q:
I’m trying to think if there’s anything else we haven’t
touched on. Is there anything that you would like to add?<br><br>WING:
Just now you said how the government can help industry. We are not
asking for a lot, we are asking for maybe five percent. If there is
five percent, there will be enough for a lot of employment.</p>
<p>Q:
A five percent increase in---?</p>
<p>WING:
Not increase, maintain five percent of the, let’s say, a
hundred percent for the import. A hundred
percent, five percent. Bring it back to this
country. Bring it back to New York. We will employ over a hundred
thousand people. I’m serious.
</p>
<p>Q:
I remember one thing that you had said before that I wanted to bring
up again, about the fact that so many people in Chinatown can’t
vote, or don’t vote, and how that’s one of the
challenges.</p>
<p>WING:
There are a lot of people, as I said before, they work in Chinatown,
but they don’t live here, so they don’t have rights to
vote, maybe they have a right to vote in the place that they live.
And a lot of people they registered to become a voter, but they
don’t vote. I don’t know why. It’s probably because
of the, the Chinese---historically we do not want to deal with the
government. The Chinese people are very conservative. They do not
want to deal with the government because they thought when you are
alive, you don’t want to deal with the government. When you are
dead, you don’t want to go to hell. Something like that, you
know. So they don’t want to deal with the government. They
thought if you deal with the government, something bad must be happen
to you. Either you go to jail or you go to trial, something like
that. That’s why they thought it’s a different country
than China. This is a democratic country, and they never have time to
adjust to this system yet. So that’s why you need a little
education, and I think maybe in a few more years they will be more
and more alert about this, and they already got a lot of information
from some of the associations, some of the non-profit associations,
too, like the CCBA, like the Fujianese Association, they give them a
lot of education about why vote, something like that.
</p>
<p>Q:
Do you see the attitudes changing at all yet?
</p>
<p>WING:
Not much, but gradually, I would think so, because the second
generation will have a different point of view than the first
generation.</p>
<p>Q:
One more question. I remember you said a little while ago that you
thought the CCBA and the Fujianese Association were two organizations
that might take the lead in organizing some development efforts in
Chinatown. Do you think they could work together?<br><br>WING: Yes,
why not?<br><br>
Q: Do you see
any challenges in their cooperating?<br><br>WING: Maybe there are
some conflicts between them politically, because one is supporting
Taiwan and one is supporting the mainland China. Their political
ideas are different. But if you are working for the benefits of the
community, I think they have the same goal. I don’t see any
problem.
</p>
<p>Q:
Okay. Is there anything else you would like to add?<br><br>WING:
Basically, you have covered everything.</p>
<p>Q:
Well, thank you very much, for taking the time to come in and do this
with us.</p>
<p>WING:
Thank you. I don’t know if I’ve been any help to you.</p>
<p>Q:
Oh, I think you’ve been a great deal of help. This will be very
useful to a lot of people now and into the future.</p>
<p>WING:
I hope so. I don’t know---</p>
<p>(end
of interview)</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p>
錄音帶002-1 A面</p>
<p>問﹕Ma先生﹐人們可能會在50年後看到或聽到我們今天的談話﹔請先簡單介紹一下您是誰以及您是哪裡人。</p>
<p>WING﹕好。</p>
<p>問﹕請先談一下您是什麼時候在什麼地方出生的﹐以及您的童年和家庭情況。</p>
<p>WING﹕我的名字是WING Ma。實際上﹐我的中文名字還有Guo Kua。我們習慣把姓放在前面---所以是Ma WING Guo﹐我的姓的意思是“馬”---“Ma”就是“馬”的意思﹐“WING”是“永遠”的意思﹐“Guo”是國家的意思。</p>
<p>我出生在中國一個非常貧窮的家庭。那時﹐我們﹐實際上是我的祖父母﹐是中國的農民。在我兩歲的時候﹐我們全家移居到了香港﹐所以﹐我實際上是在香港長大的。後來﹐在我十八歲的時候﹐我來美國讀大學。從此﹐我一直呆在美國---在我畢業之後﹐我一直生活工作在美國。</p>
<p>開始的時候﹐我是個工程師。後來﹐我開始自己做生意﹐我在這裡的唐人街開了家服裝製造公司﹐但四年前因為經濟不好被迫關閉﹐還有一個原因就是國內和國外的競爭---你知道﹐我們很難和他們競爭。所以﹐我不得不關閉﹐現在﹐我在為另外一家公司做事。</p>
<p>問﹕對不起﹐先打斷一下。您是否還記得您是怎樣從中國到香港的﹖
<br>
WING﹕噢﹐當時我才兩歲﹐我還有一點印象。在那個年代﹐國內很少有人能夠持有合法文件去香港。我們家辦了從大陸去香港的手續﹐但是當時香港政府不接受我們﹐理由是50年代末和60年代初有很多的大陸難民到香港﹐他們一時沒有辦法同時接收這麼多人﹐所以﹐我們全家只好申請難民身份才能進入香港。我就記得這麼多。</p>
<p>問﹕您的父母有沒有跟您講過他們當時為什麼決定要離開大陸﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕實際上﹐這多半是我母親的決定。我父親在我們去之前已經去過香港﹐然後他又去了菲律賓﹐他在那裡作廚師。我父親在中國以前也做過廚師﹐非常有經驗。所以﹐在六十年代初﹐菲律賓那邊有人把他請過去了。所以﹐我父親先到的香港﹐兩年之後﹐我母親﹐我的兩個姐姐和我一起到了香港。</p>
<p>問﹕您在香港生活得怎麼樣﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕香港是個好地方﹐我是在那裡長大的。我喜歡香港﹐但現在的問題是﹐我更加喜歡紐約。現在﹐我喜歡紐約多過我喜歡香港。香港是個旅遊觀光的好地方﹐但對於我個人來講不太適合居住。我更加喜歡紐約。</p>
<p>問﹕你當時住在什麼地方﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕在香港﹖香港也有房子﹐但沒有美國這麼多。因為那裡地方小﹐我們都住在大樓的單元裡。</p>
<p>問﹕地方大不大﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕很小。你如果住一間300平方尺的房間已經是非常幸運了。
<br>
問﹕您的意思是說您在香港有地方住就很幸運了。</p>
<p>WING﹕我母親是個很要強的女人。她差不多是一家之主﹐所有的事情都是她一個人做主﹐而且都是正確的決定﹐經過驗證都是正確的決定。（笑）</p>
<p>問﹕你們在香港住的時候﹐她有沒有做工﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕她有。因為當時她要照顧我的兩個妹妹和我﹐所以她沒有在外面做工﹐只是在家做一些能帶回家做的活。</p>
<p>問﹕她在家做些什麼樣的活﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕針線活。</p>
<p>問﹕您在香港上的是什麼樣的學校﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我在香港上的是天主教會的學校﹐從小學一直到中學﹐是英國式的教學系統﹐不像我們這邊的一年級﹐二年級﹐三年級。那邊小學有六年﹐中學有五年﹐高中有兩年﹐然後是三年的大學。其實是一樣的﹐因為那邊大學要念三年﹐但是必須先念兩年高中﹐相當于十二﹐十三年級。</p>
<p>所以﹐讀完初中﹐又上了一年的高中之後﹐我便來到美國上大學。</p>
<p>問﹕您喜歡上學嗎﹖
<br>
WING﹕非常喜歡。我是個成勣優秀的學生。我的GPA有3.5﹐而且我還有工科碩士學位。我讀碩士時候的GPA是3.8。</p>
<p>問﹕您是天主教徒嗎﹖<br>
WING﹕很幸運﹐或者是很不幸運﹐我不是。我本人沒有任何宗教信仰。我尊重所有的宗教信仰﹐但是我從來不信。我尊重宗教信仰是因為信仰是好的事情。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼﹐您在香港長大時有什麼娛樂嗎﹖您在那兒的生活怎麼樣﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕你是問我在香港的時候﹖</p>
<p>問﹕是的。</p>
<p>WING﹕當時沒有像現在這麼多的消遣。我們沒有電子游戲﹐電視。如果在那時家裡有電視都算是很奢侈﹐很富裕了。當時﹐很少有人家裡有電視。所以﹐我們只是和同學在一起﹐有時是在一起做遊戲。當時在天主教會學校﹐我的很多同學都是從其他國家來的。所以﹐我們跟他們學英文﹐他們跟我們學中文﹐還算很開心。我喜歡那種知識的相互交流﹐是很有益的。</p>
<p>問﹕您在十幾歲時﹐您的社交活動如何﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕非常簡單。因為我家裡管得很嚴﹐我們不能自己出去在街上閑逛。所以﹐我大多待在家裡。即使出去﹐也要得到父母的同意。所以﹐生活還是比較單調的。我們通常都是出去看電影﹐打籃球﹐或是其他的體育運動。比較簡單﹐但也很有樂趣。</p>
<p>問﹕你們看什麼電影﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有西片﹐也有中國電影。那時﹐在香港可以看到很多美國電影。
<br>
所以﹐在香港看了很多好電影後又在這裡的電視上看到﹐覺得還是蠻有意思的。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時是怎樣決定來美國上大學的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕因為我當時中學畢業時香港只有兩所大學﹐而且你知道每年有多少學生中學畢業嗎﹖十萬多﹐而兩所大學也不過招收兩千左右的學生。這兩千多學生不光是香港本地的﹐還包括外國留學生。所以﹐差不多是十萬多個學生競爭一千個位置﹐比例還不到百分之一。所以﹐我根本就沒有希望﹐這就是為什麼我來美國讀大學的原因。</p>
<p>問﹕我記得您剛才提過您父親在菲律賓做廚師。你們在香港住的時候﹐他有沒有過來跟你們一起住﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有。我父親在那邊干了差不多有十個月﹐然後休假來到香港呆了兩個月﹐以後每年都是如此。</p>
<p>問﹕我記得您在上次採訪時講過您八歲的時候才第一次見過他。</p>
<p>WING﹕是的。因為在我幾個月大的時候﹐我父親離開大陸去了香港﹐後來又去了菲律賓。當我們到香港的時候﹐他在菲律賓﹐所以我直到八歲才見到他。他第一次從菲律賓回到香港差不多是1964或65年﹐當時我只有八歲﹐也許還不到八歲。那是我第一次見到我父親。</p>
<p>問﹕您見到他時的情景是什麼樣的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕非常激動。當時是在香港機場﹐現在我聽說他們有一個更大的機場﹐當時就好像是在做夢。那時﹐對於中國家庭來講﹐家裡父母﹐尤其是父親﹐在國外做工是很普遍的。當時在大陸謀生是很艱難的﹐
<br>
所以通常是父親在國外﹐比如香港或是其他東南亞國家打工﹐我們留在大陸﹐那時東南亞國家的經濟狀況比中國好。所以﹐他們在國外工作﹐然後把錢寄回中國。這在當時是非常非常普遍的。但後來我們到了香港能夠彼此見面﹐所以關係也更加親密了。我們算是很幸運的﹐但是很多人都不是﹐他們不像我們﹐他們可能很多年都不能見到他們的父親。這是很有可能的。</p>
<p>問﹕當時您和您的父親第一次見面後﹐他又要回菲律賓﹐您的感覺如何﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕你指的是我父親﹖當時我知道他十個月或十二個月後還能回來﹐所以還算是有指望﹐比起跟他相隔八年後第一次見面還算好多了。</p>
<p>問﹕當您準備來美國上學之前﹐您對您在這邊的生活有什麼期望﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我知道這邊的生活不會太容易﹐而且我對此也有準備。我知道去一個新的環境﹐一個新的地方﹐一切要重新開始--這不會太輕鬆﹐但是我還算應付得可以。另外一方面﹐我的家教比較嚴﹐我父母不允許我做這個那個。儘管我家不是天主教家庭﹐一些中國式的教育方式從某些角度來看還是很好的。我並不是說他們是百分之百的正確﹐但至少我受了那些思想的影響。現在我又用同樣的方式來管教我的下一代。我不知道他們是否接受我的方式﹐但這些都是我從父母那裡學到的。</p>
<p>問﹕您現在有什麼地方跟您父母做的不同嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有﹐因為現在的孩子跟以前不一樣﹐時代也不一樣了﹐跟我們以前有很大的不同。他們比我們有更多的自由﹐比如有些事情我們父母能夠講﹐但我們不能講。現在的孩子就沒有這些限制﹐他們可以對我們說不。不過﹐我的頭腦也很開放﹐我不像我的父母那麼嚴厲﹐但我還是想讓他們知道很多中國式的教育方式和管教孩子的方法比西方好。但是﹐我並不是說這麼多代人傳下來的方式方法是百分之百的正確﹐或被驗證是正確的。
<br>
我想他們只是接受了一部分﹐另外一些他們會覺得很可笑﹐我想他們是這樣想的。（笑）</p>
<p>問﹕您能給我們舉一些中國式管教孩子方法的例子嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我們有體罰﹐我知道這在美國是不允許的。我們打孩子﹐我們經常用尺子等打他們屁股。但是﹐我們總是儘量不這麼做﹐因為我們也知道這樣做不好﹐我本人也是這麼認為﹐但至少我們必須要讓他們知道以前有這種管教孩子的懲罰方式。但他們覺得這是很可笑的﹐而且在美國我們是不能這樣做的。所以﹐我只是想說有時有必要用類似的方式讓孩子們懂得些規章制度。</p>
<p>問﹕有沒有什麼其他的方式﹖您能再舉些其他的例子嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我們教育他們要尊重長輩﹐父母﹐祖父母﹐不光是家裡人﹐還包括外人。我個人認為美國的教育方式裡沒有這些道德方面的內容﹐跟我們從前不一樣。他們只是教授一些書本上的知識﹐比如計算機﹐數學等﹐僅此而已。他們不教授怎樣在社會上生存﹐怎樣和別人相處﹐打交道等。我認為他們在這些方面沒有我們受的教育多。</p>
<p>問﹕我想問一下﹐您在中學畢業之後決定來這邊讀書的時候﹐有沒有考慮過其他的選擇﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕沒有。我當時有很強烈的願望要來美國讀書﹐只有這麼一條路---單行路。我從來沒有考慮過其他的選擇﹐因為我喜歡受教育﹐而且我想來美國。在我考慮的所有國家中﹐包括澳大利亞﹐新西蘭﹐英國﹐加拿大﹐我選擇了美國﹐我更喜歡美國。</p>
<p>問﹕為什麼﹖
</p>
<p>WING﹕我也不知道。我當時總有一種感覺認為美國的教育比其他的國家好﹐我從報紙上看到很多諾貝爾獎獲得者都是美國人﹐所以我受到報紙上那些文章的影響比較大。</p>
<p>問﹕您還記不記得其他什麼事情使您覺得美國的生活會更適合您﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有﹐我剛提到我家裡的管教很嚴﹐我當時有十幾歲﹐我需要自由﹐我嚮往自由。我想嘗試一下美國的自由﹐現在我在這邊生活了很多年﹐我知道自由是個好事情﹐但你必須正確運用﹐不能夠濫用﹐但那是另外一個話題。我當時只是想離開家裡人﹐想獲得自由。</p>
<p>問﹕您來這裡時有沒有濫用自由呢﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕沒有﹐絕對沒有。我是個非常自斂的人。話一出口﹐我一定會做到。如果我答應別人什麼事情﹐我也一定會照做﹐這也許是我的家庭教育。</p>
<p>問﹕您能否談一下您初次來這裡時的第一印象嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕第一印象﹖</p>
<p>問﹕您來這裡的第一天。</p>
<p>WING﹕噢﹐來這裡的第一天。當時我住在唐人街﹐這裡同我在電視和報紙上看到的美國不一樣﹐以前覺得美國有很多高樓大廈﹐是個非常先進的國家。所以不懂得為什麼這裡的樓房這麼舊﹐在香港都很少見到這麼舊的樓房。我們那裡的生活條件比這裡很多的樓房和房間都好﹐這同我在報紙和電視上看到的截然不同﹐所以我初次來這裡時的印象不是非常好。
<br>
但後來我才得知這是因為城市規劃的需要﹐政府對很多的事情都有所限制﹐所以才會有今天的這個樣子。但這在香港卻不同﹐二十年以上的樓房都要被推倒﹐再在原有的地方建高樓﹐以容納更多的人居住﹐所以很多香港的樓房都比這裡的新。</p>
<p>問﹕您剛到這裡的時候有沒有什麼認識人﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕當時我姐姐在這裡。我來之後和我姐姐住了幾個月﹐然後就搬到新澤西州了﹐因為我在那裡上學。</p>
<p>問﹕那您姐姐和她的家人朋友有沒有給您任何在這邊謀生的建議﹖您還記不記得您初次來這裡時別人是怎樣談唐人街或美國生活的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我第一次來美國時是1976年﹐當時這裡沒有像現在這麼多中國人﹐現在差不多是76年的十倍﹐所以當時沒有現在這麼熱鬧﹐人也比現在少﹐跟現在大不一樣。我是說﹐不像香港﹐現在跟香港百分之九十差不多。以前只是唐人街﹐的確就是“唐人的街”。當時我看到的很多事情跟香港比起來是很滑稽的。現在很多人還是老樣子﹐這和我在香港見識的不一樣﹐所以覺得很可笑。</p>
<p>問﹕比如﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕這裡的碗很厚。我們吃米飯的碗都是很漂亮的﹐但這裡的碗很厚﹐非常美國化。很多日常用品都跟我們在香港用的不一樣。</p>
<p>問﹕您的學校生活怎麼樣﹖
</p>
<p>WING﹕比較辛苦。我一邊打工一邊讀書﹐所以比較辛苦。但就像我剛才所講﹐我對自己要求比較嚴格﹐所以我花了三年半就完成了學業。一點問題都沒有。</p>
<p>問﹕您父母對您來美國有什麼看法﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕當我告訴他們我要來美國时﹐他們同意了﹐他們同意我來美國。</p>
<p>問﹕您來這裡之後有沒有和他們保持聯繫﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有。</p>
<p>問﹕您和他們怎麼聯繫﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我寫信給他們。當時﹐電話沒有像現在這麼普及﹐打國際長途是很貴的﹐差不多是每分鐘三美元﹐很貴的。所以﹐我只在春節的時候才給我父母打電話﹐每年打一次﹐因為電話太貴了。我通常是寫信。</p>
<p>問﹕您為什麼選學工科﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我是學理工科的。在香港﹐當你讀到三﹐四年級﹐相當于這裡十年級的時候﹐你必須選擇是學文還是學理。我選了理科﹐就這樣我就學了工科。</p>
<p>問﹕您喜歡您的專業嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕噢﹐非常喜歡。我喜歡工科﹐我喜歡上工科課。我曾做過機械工程師﹐在我開自己的公司之前﹐我做了五年的機械工程師。</p>
<p>問﹕看來您上學的時候還是很忙的。如果有業余時間﹐您都做些什麼﹖
</p>
<p>WING﹕我沒有太多的業余時間。在空閑的時候﹐我也是在學習﹐工作﹐我非常喜歡我的校園生活。儘管辛苦﹐但我覺得還是蠻有收穫的﹐因為我有了學位﹐又找著了工作﹐還算比較順利。</p>
<p>問﹕您在這邊的生活﹐有沒有什麼使您吃驚或是意想不到的事情嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕比如﹖</p>
<p>問﹕任何事情﹐比如美國人或學校﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我在學校沒有什麼覺得不適應的。實際上﹐大學的前兩年對於我來講並不困難﹐因為有很多課程我都在香港學過。第三年我們開始上專業課﹐那是我最辛苦的一年﹐三年級的時候我最辛苦。四年級就好很多﹐因為很多專業課只是把以前學過的知識應用在實驗室裡。所以大三最辛苦﹐很多課程都是我以前沒有接觸過的﹐機械工程的課程﹐那年我花了很多時間學習。</p>
<p>除此之外﹐沒有什麼特別的﹐沒有什麼覺得吃驚的。但關於我的公司﹐使我吃驚的是政府不支持這個產業。我認為他們背叛了這個產業﹐因為他們利用我們的產業來換取其他國家的其他產業或產品﹐好像他們向其他國家輸出高科技然後再進口服裝﹐這有利也有弊。</p>
<p>問﹕您已經結婚了﹐是不是﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您和您的太太是怎麼認識的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我和我太太是在香港認識的﹐她是我姐夫的外甥女。所以﹐我們在香港就認識。
<br>
當她來美國的時候﹐我們又見面了﹐後來就結了婚。</p>
<p>問﹕您在她來之前有沒有和她一直保持聯繫﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕很少聯繫﹐因為我很忙﹐沒有時間。我只給她寫過三封信﹐僅此而已。</p>
<p>問﹕她來這裡時有沒有想到要和您結婚﹐或您有沒有...</p>
<p>WING﹕沒有。她只是剛好到這裡﹐然後我們見了面﹐我們當時沒有想到要結婚。</p>
<p>問﹕她的哪些方面讓你決定跟她結婚﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我太太是個非常堅強的女性。她很漂亮﹐人好﹐勤懇。當我們開公司時﹐我們一起干﹐她差不多是掌內﹐所以我才有時間管理一些對外的事務。</p>
<p>問﹕您在做工程師的時候主要做些什麼﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕工程設計﹐我在三家公司做過。第一家公司叫作CE-Lummus﹐在Bloomfiled 新澤西州。他們建造很多石油化工設備﹐我是在那個公司的機械工程部工作。我工作的第二家公司是搞機器設計的﹐設計焊接機器。我工作的第三家公司是生產過濾器的﹐他們製造很多的過濾器﹐是美國最大的過濾器廠家之一﹐叫作Pall Corporation﹐在長島。</p>
<p>問﹕您為什麼總是在換工作﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕在那時﹐你不換工作就漲不了薪水。你必須找一個薪水高的工作﹐如果你不換的話﹐薪水是不會提高的。公司每年提高的薪水沒有你換工作後的薪水多。只有你換了工作﹐薪水才會漲。<br>
<br>
問﹕那您是在做了五年的工程師後才開始您自己的生意的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕是什麼促使您做這個決定的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我在第三家公司做的時候﹐我被公司裁員裁掉了。我當時畢業時工程師還是比較搶手的。後來就不行了﹐很多工程公司都在裁員﹐我也是這樣被裁掉的。我當時被裁掉後大約失業有九個月。在那段時間﹐我開一輛黑色的出租車﹐當時他們叫轎車。我開出租車謀生﹐那是在我開公司之前。</p>
<p>問﹕您是怎樣---您能不能講一下那是一個什麼樣的公司嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕是個服裝製造廠。我在唐人街開了一間工廠﹐剛開始時僱了有五﹐六十個工人。在我關閉公司之前﹐我僱了有一百多個工人。</p>
<p>問﹕您開公司的本錢是哪裡來的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我姐夫幫了我。他當時是做服裝生意的﹐他是1977年開始自己生意的。在我失業的時候﹐他說如果我想搞服裝他會幫我的。所以﹐他借給我錢開公司。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時做服裝生意的時候﹐市場怎麼樣﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕當時還比較容易。我說的比較容易是指當時還沒有太多國外的競爭﹐只是國內的市場。其實也不能說是全部﹐差不多有百分之九十五是國內﹐只有一小部份是從國外進口的。相比之下﹐現在百分之九十九都是進口﹐只有百分之一是國內生產的。也許我有些誇張﹐但大致是這種狀況--非常接近。<br>
<br>
問﹕你們主要是生產什麼的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我們生產女裝﹐運動裝﹐裙子﹐褲子。我們把產品賣給Sears﹐JC Penny﹐Wal-Mart﹐Kmart﹐很多大的連鎖店。現在這些大的連鎖店都從國外進口服裝。所以﹐我們國內失去了很多生意。</p>
<p>問﹕找工人是不是很困難﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕開始的時候是。我剛剛開始的時候﹐大概是85年﹐工人很難找﹐因為新移民不多。在90年代﹐從90年代開始﹐有很多從中國﹐香港和很多東南亞來的新移民﹐然後工人才比較好找。我說工人比較好找不是指好的工人容易找﹐好的工人現在還是比較難找。還好﹐當我公司關閉的時候﹐大約有百分之八十的工人還想跟我干﹐很多人給我干了十多年。他們對我非常好﹐我相信我對他們也不錯。（笑）我們的關係還是很好的﹐否則﹐他們不會跟我這麼多年的。</p>
<p>問﹕您能跟我講一下那些給您打工的人嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕大多是女工﹐因為做的是針線活。</p>
<p>WING﹕有一些男工是做體力活的﹐這就是我太太掌內的原因。女人和女人之間溝通還是比較容易的﹐是不是﹖所以我是負責在外面拉生意。</p>
<p>問﹕您的工人有沒有成立工會﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有。我們實際上是個工會組織﹐所有的工人都是工會成員。我們隸屬于﹐當時是叫ILGWU---International Ladies Garment Workers Union。現在叫UNITE﹐Local 23-25。<br>
<br>
問﹕您辦廠期間有沒有什麼麻煩﹐勞工方面的麻煩﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕內部沒有﹐但是外部有。倒不是因為我的工人﹐是一些外部的問題﹐比如工會的問題。一些外來的影響﹐倒不是我們自己的問題﹐我們從來沒有什麼問題。大多時候我有足夠的活給我的工人做﹐我給的工資高﹐也準時付﹐所以都沒有什麼問題﹐這也就是為什麼他們跟我這麼多年的原因。其他很多衣廠﹐倒不是因為他們做的不好﹐只是他們有時不能夠完善一些手續和落實一些事情﹐所以很多工人因此不是十分滿意。所以我說﹐百分之九十九在於公司的管理。如果公司管理沒有問題﹐一切都不會有太大的問題﹐這跟是不是有工會沒有太大的關係。</p>
<p>問﹕您覺得有哪些因素促使您百分之八十的工人都會留下來給您做事﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕穩定。我總是有固定的任務交給他們做﹐而且我給他們發的工資也很穩定。我不是這個星期發一個數﹐下個星期發一個數﹐一切都是很穩定的。所以﹐如果有一個好的制度的話﹐大家都會遵守的。這是我的看法。</p>
<p>問﹕您發的工資的標準大致是怎麼樣的﹖您還記不記得﹐在八十年代剛開廠的時候﹐您的工人的工資是多少﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕讓我想一下。八五年那陣兒應該是差不多三美金﹐我記不得準確的數字。後來是四塊多﹐現在是六塊九或七塊錢左右。我說的也不一定準確﹐我的工廠已經關閉有四年了。現在差不多是一小時七美金。這些都是工會定的標準﹐聯邦的標準是一小時5.15美金﹐紐約州的標準是4.75美金。</p>
<p>問﹕那就是說﹐您不是按件計的﹐而是按小時計的工錢﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我們是按件計﹐然後再將件數換算成小時﹐所以他們的工資會高一些。</p>
<p>問﹕您為什麼最後要關閉公司呢﹖<br>
<br>
WING﹕我競爭不過那些進口商。讓我舉個例子﹐我如果要在這邊做一條這樣的褲子的話﹐單是人工就要差不多5美金。如果你從中國﹐斯裡蘭卡﹐印度﹐或其他東南亞國家進口一條褲子﹐5美金會包括所有的成本﹐包括材料的費用。這樣我就很難和他們競爭了。我們這邊單單是支付工人的工資就要5美金﹐所以我跟他們競爭不了。現在還有一小部份廠家還能夠勉強經營是因為我們這邊有一個所謂的“迅速反應”的系統。我們可以做一些國外廠家做不到的事情﹐時間。我們可以在較短的時間內完成購買商需要的產品﹐但這是外國廠家做不到的。比如﹐我們可以在兩三個星期﹐以至于一個星期內完成任務。你如果找國外的廠商﹐差不多需要三個月。所以﹐這是我們唯一的優勢。這也就是為什麼現在還有一些國內廠家的原因。</p>
<p>問﹕您曾是服裝製造商協會的主席(the Garment Manufacturers Association)﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕曾經當過兩次﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕是兩次。</p>
<p>問﹕您能談一下嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕那是個廠商的協會﹐會員其實都是工廠的老闆。我們每年舉行一次年會﹐像是每年一次的會餐或宴會﹐以便相互交換一下信息。而且我們每個月還要開會﹐我遲些時候也要去開會。他們還讓我做委員會的成員﹐因為他們需要我繼續為協會出些力﹐我也因此感激他們。</p>
<p>我們每年還要舉行一次募捐﹐其實也不是募捐﹐只是需要籌集一些資金以便維持協會的一些正常開支。我們並沒有打算因此賺錢﹐但每年大家參與的情況還是蠻不錯的。儘管現在的經濟不好﹐我們還是在維持這個協會﹐因為這是我們當地唯一一個服裝業的團體。從前也有過一些﹐但後來也就沒有了。我們的協會從成立時到現在已經有45年了。<br>
<br>
問﹕您作為主席主要負責些什麼事情﹖您的職責有哪些﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我們每三年同工會商討一次合同。我們儘量為我們的會員爭取一些利益﹐同時也會顧及工人的利益。這聽起來好像很矛盾﹐但其實不然。因為我們每天都要面對我們的員工﹐儘管他們是工會成員﹐我們希望他們能夠從工會那裡獲得最大的利益。除了我做主席之外﹐我們還有很多委員會成員﹐然後我們組成一個談判小組﹐負責每三年與工會商討一次合同。還有﹐我們負責與其他一些協會或其他州聯絡﹐以便把一些資訊帶到紐約。我們差不多就做這些。</p>
<p>問﹕您一般是怎麼做的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有大部分是跟服裝業務發展公司合作﹐他們在Centre Street都有辦事處。我們與他們的聯繫比較密切﹐雖然我們與工會有合同﹐我們也與他們密切合作﹐儘量攔一些外州的業務﹐或是國外的業務。儘管這有一些幫助﹐但是幫助不大﹐因為關鍵還是要看價格---我們還是競爭不過國外的廠商。但至少他們有時還會向我們訂貨﹐如果他們需要趕時間的話﹐他們都會找我們的﹐不會把生意送到別處去。</p>
<p>問﹕您在做服裝製造商協會(the Garment Manufacturers Association)主席時和工會主要談判些什麼事項﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕主要是工人福利方面的問題---最重要的是醫療保險問題﹐因為每個工會成員﹐即衣工的職工﹐都需要醫療保險。而且這些費用是越來越高﹐很多工人都支付不起。現在﹐很多工人都要支付一部分費用﹐這對他們來講是很大的負擔。所以﹐在我做協會主席的時候﹐我想說服工會不讓工人支付這筆費用﹐但是沒有什麼效果。現在他們想讓衣工出這筆錢﹐這對廠商也不公平﹐因為這是一項很大的開支﹐一個工人每月差不多是兩百多塊錢﹐實在是太貴了。<br>
<br>
問﹕您的衣工具體在什麼位置﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕離這兒不遠﹐在Mott Street。現在那棟樓已經改建成醫院了﹐不是全部﹐只有一半被改建了。那棟樓其實是兩棟樓﹐但他們在很多年前把牆打通了﹐所以就成了一棟很大的樓﹐每層都有一萬多平方英呎。我當時是在三樓。現在他們把一半的空間改建成辦公樓﹐另外一半還是服裝製造廠房。我想他們沒有再簽長期合同把地方租出去﹐只是每個月現出租的。</p>
<p>問﹕當您關閉衣廠時﹐廠裡的那些工人怎麼樣﹖他們的反應如何﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕一些工人哭了。他們沒有想到我會關閉衣廠﹐因為他們都是有非常穩定的活做。這麼多年來﹐他們的收入也是很穩定的。他們沒有想到要到其他地方工作。所以﹐這對很多工人來講也是一段艱難的時期。</p>
<p>問﹕您知不知道他們後來找到什麼樣的工作了嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕後來﹐他們有些去其他衣廠做了﹐有些改了行﹐做了類似于醫務助理的工作等。我也不知道準確的稱呼是什麼﹐他們必須接受CPC（中美規劃處Chinese-American Planning Council）或人力部門(Manpower)的培訓才能合格上崗。</p>
<p>問﹕護士﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕差不多吧﹐家庭護理什麼的﹐幫助照顧老人。</p>
<p>問﹕您有沒有再和他們見面﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有。甚至現在我和很多以前的工人都有在街上碰到﹐而且他們都還想讓我重新開廠﹐但我跟他們講我不會了。倒不是因為我自己的原因﹐而是整個兒的經濟環境﹐因為競爭﹐我們很難和國外競爭。所以﹐我不會再開廠的。<br>
<br>
問﹕您為什麼覺得應該在那個時候關閉衣廠呢﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕在關閉衣廠的時候﹐我其實還有盈利。我還沒有虧本﹐但是我覺得我如果想繼續做下去的話﹐我必須作些財務預期規劃﹐發現可能我再做六個月就要虧本了。所以﹐我知道如果再這樣繼續下去﹐再過六個月我會損失很多錢的。所以﹐我寧可當時關閉﹐也不想再拖六個月。我覺得我還是做了個明智的決定。現在﹐很多人﹐很多衣廠的老闆都在抱怨﹐倒不是因為他們沒有訂單。有的時候﹐他們有活做﹐但找不到工人﹔有的時候﹐有工人﹐但沒有活做。這是很難調整的。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時關閉衣廠後都有什麼選擇﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我想做別的生意﹐但我關閉衣廠的時候是1999年﹐當時的經濟是在走下坡路。當時﹐整體的經濟形勢都不好﹐我也沒有決定要做些什麼﹐所以我在家呆了兩年多﹐什麼也沒有做。我只是在考慮下一步要怎樣﹐哪一行比較適合我。所以﹐大概是一年半﹐兩年前﹐我又開始工作了﹐但沒有自己開廠。我現在在給別人打工﹐是酒業。</p>
<p>問﹕您是做什麼的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我是做分銷商的銷售代理﹐但現在我在為一個供應商做事。</p>
<p>問﹕您為什麼選擇這份工作﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我喜歡酒﹐尤其是法國白蘭地酒。因此﹐我認識很多的業中人士。他們就給我介紹了一些職位。我覺得這個行業還是很有意思的。</p>
<p>問﹕您同社區在很多方面都有緊密的聯繫﹐您剛剛提到過在服裝製造商協會(the Garment Manufacturing Association)擔任職務。您能否談一下您做過的其他的事情嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕當Peter Vallone議長還是紐約市議員的時候﹐我是他亞美顧問理事會(the Asian American Advisory Council)的成員。我的職責是將社區的一些情況反映到市議會﹐
<br>
告訴他們我們希望市議會做些什麼﹐我們需要些什麼﹐以及我們需要市裡做些什麼。這是我在任協會主席期間擔任的眾多職務之一。我湊巧知道美中華人博物館(the Museum of Chinese in the Americas)﹐我認為這個博物館比較有教育意義﹐有助于我們的下一代了解中國的文化﹐所以﹐我也在支持這個博物館。</p>
<p>問﹕您在Peter Vallone的Asian American Advisory Committee任職的時候﹐主要處理些什麼事務﹖您都向他反映了什麼情況﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我記得當時我們要向市里反映些街道清潔的問題和停車計時器的問題﹐因為唐人街的很多地方都不能停車﹐於是很多人和遊客不願意來唐人街。所以﹐我們要求政府多提供些停車場地﹐多安排人手指揮交通﹐以便吸引更多的人來這裡﹐來支持唐人街的餐飲業和其他產業的發展。大概就是如此﹐大部份都是有關社區的議題。</p>
<p>問﹕那您的努力是不是很有效果﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕基本上是﹐還不錯。比如﹐1995年之前﹐人們可以在Canal Street停車﹐以至于造成交通堵塞。現在基本上已經沒有了﹐現在Canal Street不准停車﹐即使在七點之後。這樣就對了﹐因為這樣很多交通流量可以暢通無阻﹐也避免了污染整個兒社區的環境。</p>
<p>問﹕您也是社區委員會(Community Board)的成員﹐是不是﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我記得那是在1993年﹐我在第三社區委員會(Community Board)做了差不多兩年。</p>
<p>問﹕您那段經歷怎麼樣﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕一些小商販給我們帶來一些麻煩﹐那些在街上賣紀念品的小商販。我們想把他們組織起來﹐安排在Roosevel Park﹐
<br>
應該是Roosevel Park。但是﹐不是非常有效﹐因為他們只在那裡呆了幾個月﹐後來就又重新找地方了。我覺得做這個職務需要很多關係﹐所以就退出了。我跟他們講過要怎樣做﹐我希望他們能夠按照我的方式去做﹐但我後來發現這並不是那麼簡單。不是說我們說了後他們就會照辦﹐這不是我能夠控制的﹐所以我就辭職了﹐沒有再繼續做委員。</p>
<p>問﹕2001年9月11日那天您在哪裡﹖您是怎樣知道發生的一切的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我在家裡。那天早晨﹐我正準備開車去上班。在我臨走之前﹐我姐姐打電話給我。她說﹕“有架飛機撞到世貿中心(World Trade Center)了。”我說﹕“什麼﹖”然後我打開了電視﹐我看到姐妹塔中的被撞的一座已經開始冒煙了。在我打開電視的幾分鐘之後﹐另外一架飛機也撞了上去。當時就好像在看電影﹐只不過這是真的。這對我的打擊很大﹐因為World Trade Center是我們城市的標誌。我像個紐約人﹐我喜歡紐約。所以﹐這簡直是難以置信﹐我都差不多哭了﹐實在是難以接受。在那之後﹐我在家裡呆了兩天看電視﹐沒有上班。就好像人不知道在做些什麼﹐非常非常沮喪。</p>
<p>問﹕您在看到這些事情發生的時候﹐您有沒有想到唐人街的什麼﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我做的第一件事是打電話給很多唐人街的朋友﹐告訴他們儘快離開﹐因為我的很多朋友都在唐人街做事﹐很多朋友都在唐人街有生意。我叫他們不要待在那裡﹐趕快回家。我知道一旦這樣的事情發生了﹐肯定是出了什麼問題。還好﹐開始的時候電話還能夠打通。過了一會兒﹐電話就打不通了﹐只能用手機。後來﹐連手機也打不通了。所以﹐當時對于我來講就好像是世紀末日。非常無奈﹐也非常非常沮喪。很多朋友不能按時回家﹐他們只能在曼哈頓呆到第二天才能回家。唐人街也全部癱瘓了。不光是唐人街﹐整個曼哈頓﹐全紐約﹐乃至全國在那兩天都是無所適從。</p>
<p>問﹕您有了孩子﹐是不是﹖<br>
<br>
WING﹕我有兩個孩子。</p>
<p>問﹕兩個孩子。您是怎樣向他們解釋發生的事情的﹖他們是怎麼知道的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕他們是在學校知道的。我想學校那裡有電視﹐老師也跟他們講了。</p>
<p>問﹕他們有什麼反應﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我也不知道他們怎麼想﹐但是我知道他們是很愛國的。</p>
<p>問﹕您指的愛國是什麼意思﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕熱愛這個國家﹖我的意思是說﹐我的兒子非常美國化﹐美國是他的一切。這對他們來講也是一個很大的打擊﹐因為他們也曾經看到過World Trade Center﹐也去過那裡﹐現在卻已不復存在了。所以我的孩子對此也是非常傷心的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是不是也愛國﹖</p>
<p>（磁帶中斷）</p>
<p>問﹕您提到您的孩子是很愛國的﹐或者說是個愛國者。那麼您呢﹖您愛國嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我認為我是愛國的。當我剛到這個國家的時候﹐所有事情對於我來講都是新鮮的﹐但時間久了﹐我在這裡也住了這麼多年﹐我自己感覺都已經融入這個國家了。我現在入了美國籍﹐所以我認為我是愛國的。但是﹐我不知道這個國家是否也是如此看待我的﹐我想應該不是。無論如何﹐我不知道。但是﹐就我本人來講﹐我認為我是非常愛國的。<br>
<br>
問﹕您說您不知道這個國家是否認為您愛國是什麼意思﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕因為先前我提到過﹐美國是個移民國家。除了印第安人是本土人以外﹐所有人都是從其他國家移民來的﹐比如﹐愛爾蘭﹐蘇格蘭﹐英格蘭﹐或其他歐洲國家﹐亞洲國家﹐大家都是從不同的地方來的。但是﹐現在掌管這個國家的只是一小部份人﹐他們怎麼想就是怎麼樣。所以﹐我認為應由他們來評論你是否愛國﹐而不是我自己的看法。這就是我的意思。</p>
<p>問﹕911有沒有改變您對愛國的看法﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕它使我變得比以前更加愛國﹐因為那些恐怖分子不應該襲擊World Trade Center﹐這與那些無辜的受害者沒有任何關係。如果他們反對政府的一些作法﹐他們應該去找政府﹐而不是無辜的人民。所以我認為他們這樣做是非常非常錯誤的。</p>
<p>問﹕您在唐人街也有一些地產﹐對不對﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是怎樣開始介入地產業的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕因為我想在多方面投資。當我在做服裝生意的時候﹐我已經開始在唐人街的房地產上投資。在當時﹐我沒有任何想法﹐只是想做些投資而已。我現在發現這是一個非常好的投資﹐因為所有的房地產在近兩三年都上漲了很多﹐尤其是2000年﹐形勢非常好。現在也還不錯﹐儘管不像一年前那樣好。就租金來講﹐我受到911的影響很大﹐因為很多房客都陸續搬走了﹐我的樓有二十多個月都沒有人租。後來﹐一點一點地﹐又有了一些新的房客。現在﹐我只租出了60%的地方。但是﹐我還需要更多的房客﹐我還需要付房地產稅﹐支付很多費用。我已向政府申請了一些資助﹐
<br>
但只拿到六千美金﹐還不夠我一個月支付抵押貸款的費用。我每個月要支付大約一萬兩千美金的抵押貸款。</p>
<p>問﹕您是向哪裡申請資助的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我通過Williams Street的一個機構申請的﹐我忘了叫什麼名字。一共可以向兩家機構申請﹐一家在Williams﹐另外一家在Rector Street。我是通過Williams Street的那家機構申請的。</p>
<p>問﹕您是怎樣知道政府﹐或是其他機構﹐會提供一些幫助的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕一些非盈利機構派發了一些小冊子﹐或是在電臺有廣播﹐在中文電臺都有。所以﹐我跟他們聯繫﹐發現我也有資格申請。於是﹐我就填了張申請表。但我沒想到我遭受二十多個月的損失卻只拿到了六千塊錢。</p>
<p>問﹕他們是怎樣計算的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕他們說是我收入的百分之二﹐他們是按照這個數算的。</p>
<p>問﹕您當時在申請這些補助的時候﹐那個機構對您怎麼樣﹖那裡的人是不是很友好﹐很願意幫助您﹖還是說﹐辦這些手續很繁瑣﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕他們非常友好﹐非常願意幫助我。但問題是最後把補助發給誰﹐發多少﹐都不是由他們決定的﹐而是由另外一些人決定的。單是看這些申請表﹐你很難知道那些人是否是遭受損失了。這是我的看法。我跟他們講我因此損失了很多收入﹐但他們說我只是房東﹐不是做生意的。我認為他們這麼講不對﹐因為我是在做房地產生意﹐這也是生意﹐但他們說不是。所以﹐他們說只能給我我年收入的百分之二。他們就是這麼算的。</p>
<p>問﹕我需要換磁帶。<br>
<br>
TAPE 002－2 SIDE</p>
<p>問﹕您剛纔提到911之後獲得一些補助。我有些好奇﹐您有沒有聽到您在唐人街的朋友﹐一些生意人﹐也得到了補助﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕聽到的不多﹐因為我也沒有太關注這些事情。但是我聽到一些在這裡住的居民得到的補助比我一個生意人多。我不知道他們是怎麼算的﹐到底能拿多少。我實在是不知道他們是如何計算的﹐比如在這段時期的營業損失。我們並沒有想多要﹐我們只是請求﹐比如說﹐再多給一些時間交房地產稅。我已經支付了﹐但是晚了兩個多星期。他們收了我大約兩百塊的利息﹐他們還收這個錢。倒不是說我不想付這個錢﹐只是我在那個時期比較困難。我沒有房客﹐我必須從其他地方把錢搞到﹐從我自己的腰包裡。因此我耽誤了一些時間﹐對於我來講﹐那段時期的確是困難時期。</p>
<p>現在就好很多了﹐因為我有了新的房客﹐一切又步入了正規。至少我不會再賠錢﹐現在剛好持平。但是﹐我必須彌補我二十多個月房屋空閑的損失﹐這是很困難的。我希望政府能夠為這個地區的業主做些事情。我是在Canal Street以南﹐是第二大受重創的地區。我不明白他們為什麼不能給我們﹐比如那些新房客﹐一些便利﹐因為我的新房客在這裡營業需要去Department of Building申請很多的執照﹐或者需要裝修﹐但是Department of Building都不給他們提供便利。我實在是不明白為什麼他們會這樣。那些房客給這個地區帶來很多生意﹐使這裡更加繁榮﹐但政府還是不通融---真不知道他們是怎麼考慮的﹖我想他們實在是太官僚了。<br>
<br>
問﹕您以前曾為政府做事﹐比如﹐向政府反映社區的一些問題。您有沒有考慮過投訴﹐或試圖改變他們處理分配補助的方式﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我覺得我個人做不了什麼。但我的確同很多非盈利組織的人員交涉過﹐但沒有什麼效果。我也只是跟他們提起過﹐我只是問他們如果有很多人都有我類似的情況我們該怎麼辦﹐沒有人能回復我。</p>
<p>問﹕您是跟誰談的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我跟CPC的人談過﹐那些地方性的非盈利機構。他們理應幫助這些當地的社區民眾。</p>
<p>問﹕在911之前﹐您都有哪些房客﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕在911之前﹐有一個房客是Pearl Paint﹐他們租我的樓作辦公室和倉庫。二樓和三樓是做服裝的﹐是衣廠。</p>
<p>問﹕現在呢﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕現在﹐一樓是餐館和酒吧﹐二樓是培訓中心。諷刺的是﹐這是在911之後人們接受再培訓的地方之一﹐這是政府要求的。三樓是一些藝術家﹐他們為一些大公司製作雕塑。</p>
<p>問﹕現在房租的水平同以前相比如何﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕和以前差不多﹐因為現在的形勢也不太好。如果我堅持收更多的租金的話﹐我的地方是租不出去的。所以﹐我減少了不少租金﹐只比以前稍多一些。但是﹐我還要給他們免很多租金﹐幾個月的租金。有的是六個月﹐有的是七個月﹐就是為了能讓他們留在這裡。你必須這麼做﹐否則對自己也沒有什麼好處。<br>
<br>
問﹕那家餐館是什麼餐館﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕他們有三個合伙人﹐一個是印度人﹐一個是土耳其人﹐另外一個我也從來沒有見過﹐他在佛羅裡達﹐在做服裝進口生意。（笑）他們在這邊開了一家餐館和一間酒吧。因為這個地區﹐他們叫TreBeCa﹐比較適合那些年輕的專業人士消費﹐他們下了班可以來這裡﹐正好是酒吧優惠時間。所以﹐我認為這樣會使得這個地區再次繁榮起來。</p>
<p>因為在911之後﹐這裡就好像是一座死城﹐沒有人想來。現在﹐人們逐漸過來光顧這個地方﹐我都可以感覺到。在下班後﹐大約五點到七點鐘﹐很多人來酒吧喝酒或吃東西。這樣很好﹐你感覺到這裡的環境越來越好了。所以我認為Department of Housing應該給這些房客﹐不單單是我的﹐包括在這裡有生意的人﹐一些便利﹐不要給他們太多的限制。</p>
<p>問﹕您的樓在哪裡﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕什麼﹖</p>
<p>問﹕那座樓在哪裡﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕在Walker街52號﹐Canal街以南兩個街口。（咳嗽）</p>
<p>問﹕要喝些水嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕不用﹐也許是空氣的原因。<br>
<br>
問﹕您覺得在911之後﹐政府或那些非盈利機構在哪些地方還可以做得更好來幫助唐人街的居民和這裡的生意﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我不想冒犯任何人﹐但他們完全可以做得更好。基金其實是很多的﹐很多人也受到911的影響﹐但是那些基金沒有很好的落實下去。很多錢都是浪費了﹐很多錢沒有利用上﹐我也不知道是什麼原因﹐或是官僚主義什麼的﹐他們就是不想把錢派出去。所以﹐最後期限到了的時候﹐他們祇想倉促地把錢分出去﹐即使有的人並不符合條件。</p>
<p>像我本人的情況﹐我想我至少可以獲得些補償﹐或者補助﹐或是些貸款什麼的﹐以便我能夠度過難關﹐但是我什麼都沒得到。或者﹐只得到一些﹐但是還不夠我維持一個月的開銷的。所以﹐我認為﹐他們實在應該再做些具體實際的調查﹐而不是草率地審核一下就把錢分了出去﹐我認為這樣做是不正確的。而且我聽說他們很多時候還要把一些已分配下去的錢再追回來﹐這就說明他們一開始把錢分下去就是錯誤的。</p>
<p>問﹕第一步是把一些資助分配下去﹐這些錢都是用來重建紐約市的。如果您有了這些錢用來重建唐人街﹐您要怎樣做﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕為社區﹖</p>
<p>問﹕是的。</p>
<p>WING﹕為了改善經濟﹐我們必須要做些廣告宣傳﹐清潔街道﹐管理好交通﹐要吸引眾多的餐企業人士和生意人參與。要搞很多的活動﹕這個月是搞餐企業的宣傳﹐下個月是做銀行業的宣傳﹐再下一個月是金融業﹐各行各業都有自己的一個宣傳月。而且﹐我想做這些事情也不需要很多錢﹐因為如果這些生意人也參與的話﹐他們也會願意出一些錢的。所以﹐那些非盈利性的機構可以把政府﹐生意人﹐和社區的群眾組織起來﹐我認為這樣是會有很好的效果的。全年的每一個月都有一個主題﹐然後再做些宣傳。這不僅會吸引一些當地的民眾﹐而且也會吸引外地的遊客﹐甚至國外的遊客。這樣會促使﹐不光是唐人街﹐包括附近地區﹐像華爾街﹐繁榮起來。人們因為紐約的高稅率﹐因為911事件，而愈來愈少到紐約。
<br>
我們必須把人們吸引過來﹐吸引到紐約。在911之後﹐旅館的價錢降得很低﹐現在才開始慢慢好轉起來。</p>
<p>但是在911之前﹐旅館的生意還是很好的。我聽說整個紐約市百分之九十的房間都已經訂滿﹐區別實在是很大。在911之後的兩年裡﹐很多地方都被迫關閉﹐很多餐館和其他一些生意也完全消失了。現在﹐需要給他們一個機會回來﹐給他們一個機會重新開始。我們需要幫助他們﹐我認為市裡﹐聯邦﹐紐約州應該為他們做些事情﹐不僅僅是為曼哈頓﹐為唐人街﹐要為整個紐約市。</p>
<p>問﹕您認為有沒有一些機構或是唐人街的一些個人能夠組織﹐領導﹐或者倡導一些事情呢﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我認為這不是個人﹐或一兩個機構能做的事情﹐應該是群體的努力﹐大家都要參與。</p>
<p>（磁帶中斷）</p>
<p>問﹕我剛纔問您在唐人街誰能夠領導或組織一些事情來發展唐人街﹐您說這必須是群體的努力。</p>
<p>WING﹕是的。但是﹐我要針對兩大機構再做些補充。他們不是非盈利機構﹐但他們是社區的組織。一個叫作中華公所CCBA (Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association)﹐另外一個叫作American Fujianese Association。他們是唐人街最大的兩個社區團體。他們在當地的影響力很大。我想他們應該牽頭舉辦我剛纔提到的那些活動。</p>
<p>問﹕您有沒有考慮過也參加組織一些類似的活動﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕如果有可能的話﹐當然可以。我會積極參加的﹐我會盡力的。<br>
<br>
問﹕我記得第一次採訪的時候您談到很多人剛剛來到紐約的時候在這裡賺了一些錢﹐然後就離開了﹐沒有太融入這個社區。您也是那段時期來的﹐您卻做了很多的社區工作。您有哪些特殊的地方使得您會這樣做﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕很多人並不在這裡住﹐他們只是在這裡上班﹐只是在這裡賺錢﹐然後就走了。我在搬走之前在這裡已經住了很多年﹐我之所以搬走是因為我需要讓我的孩子居住在一個更好的環境。我和我的太太倒不是非常在乎這些。我在唐人街住了十五年。當時﹐我認為如果一個人在一個地方賺了錢﹐不只是這裡﹐而是在任何地方﹐都應該對當地有所回報﹐包括金錢方面﹐工作方面﹐慈善方面等﹐任何事情。我認為我應該做些事情﹐以回報這個社區﹐因為這些錢或其他的東西都是從這個社區賺來的。就好像是我剛纔提到的中國式的教育﹐你總是要報答那些曾經幫助過你的人。</p>
<p>問﹕您覺得唐人街為什麼沒有像其他那些受到911衝擊的地區得到相同的資助或關注﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕他們沒有像其他地區得到同樣多的資助﹖我實在不知道﹐但我想可能是因為太多的人管事﹐卻沒有人去落實。太多的人申請相同的基金﹐卻沒有一個社區的代表。所以﹐不是太集中。很多的人在做同樣的事﹐而他們不能夠把一些錢分給這個機構﹐他們必須把錢分給大家。所以﹐這些錢最後分配得比較分散。</p>
<p>問﹕您能不能談一下您為什麼沒有像以前那樣積極參與一些政治活動的原因﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕在那個時候﹐我有自己的生意。我當時認為政治和經濟應該攜手合作以使生意越做越好﹐這樣我們的社區也會越來越好﹐這樣才能更好地幫助社區的民眾。的確﹐有的時候政府官員是肯幫忙。但是﹐他們很多都是四年一換﹐一段時期他們能夠幫助你﹐但是四年之後﹐他們卻不能做任何事情﹐因為他們已經不在那個位置上。因此﹐有些時候﹐我也是很無奈。<br>
<br>
比如﹐我以前是Vallone的咨詢理事會的成員﹐現在他已經不在市議會了。所以﹐我們以前建立的很多關係都用不上了。因此﹐我認為的確是很難保持一個持續的系統來造福整個社區。所以﹐在這樣的情況下﹐必須能有一些人﹐一些專業人士全職做這些事情﹐而不是我們利用自己的業余時間去做這些事情。必須是有全職的人來管理才能夠有效果。</p>
<p>問﹕您是否認為在職的政府官員應對唐人街的所需負責﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕這個取決于個人。一些是﹐一些不是。有的政府官員不錯﹐有的只是為了拉選票和贊助。一些官員是真做事情的。所以我說完全是看個人。</p>
<p>問﹕您能否舉一些您面臨挑戰的具體實例﹐或是您看到的有關從政方面﹐以及使別人了解自己觀點方面的挑戰嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕比如﹖</p>
<p>問﹕任何實例﹐比如您或您所在的組織想要達到一些目的但最後沒有實現。</p>
<p>WING﹕有。</p>
<p>問﹕都有什麼樣的障礙﹖具體有什麼困難﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕大約在五年前﹐市議會開了一次服裝業的會議﹐我也有參加。實際上﹐我是發言人之一。我們的行政主管﹐我﹐和Brooklyn Apparel Association的主席﹐也是我的一個好朋友﹐在市議會舉行了一次聽證會﹐討論服裝業對經濟和社區等的影響。<br>
<br>
最後﹐我們通過市議員Jerome O'Donovan做出了一些安排。他是來自Staten Island的議員﹐他曾任市議會經濟發展委員會主席﹐這就是為什麼我們請他為我們做些事情，他是個非常負責任的人﹐他回復了我們﹐並為我們安排了一次聽證會。我們很感激他。我不知道這是否有助于其他政府官員了解我們的想法﹐但至少我們做了些事情。這是我們成就的主要的一件事情。</p>
<p>問﹕您能不能舉一些您努力去做但沒有達到目的﹐或您沒有收到政治人物答復的實例﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有些事情不是一兩個政治人物能幫到的。我想那是由國家的高層人士﹐比如國會議員﹐或參議員來決定的。所以﹐他們只是將我們所講的﹐或在聽證會上的發言記錄在案。當那些做決策的人看到的時候﹐他們也許並不讚同我們的觀點﹐所以我不知道這些是否有幫助﹐但至少我們做了這些事情﹐引起了他們的關注---這就是我們要達到的目的﹐僅此而已。我知道很難引起他們的關注﹐但至少我們做了些正確的事情。</p>
<p>問﹕那是什麼時候的事情﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕大約五年前﹐在市議會。</p>
<p>問﹕您覺得唐人街今後服裝業的前景如何﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕這個行業根本就沒有什麼希望。我的意思是說﹐因為這個國家勞動力的價格沒法和其他南美洲﹐加勒比海﹐亞洲國家的勞動力相比。我們競爭不過他們。國內在這個行業做的人會越來越少。相反﹐越來越多的人會為進口商做事。所以﹐我認為這是個衰落的產業。也許還會有人繼續做這一行﹐正如我剛纔講過﹐那是因為國內需要有人能夠在短期內生產一些產品。這些差不多佔百分之五。<br>
<br>
問﹕我知道服裝業在很長一段時間是唐人街經濟的支柱。您覺得什麼會填補這個空缺﹖唐人街以後會變成什麼樣子﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕中國人是很靈活的。在有服裝業的時候﹐他們會投入服裝業。一旦服裝業消失了﹐他們會做些其他事情。我認為這不是什麼問題。但唯一的問題是﹐在這個過渡時期﹐他們需要政府的幫助。正如我先前所講﹐像其他行業一樣﹐他們需要經過培訓才能獲得那個職業所需的執照。我想﹐他們會挺過去的。但是﹐如果政府能夠給他們一點點幫助﹐他們不至于那麼艱難。</p>
<p>問﹕除了培訓以外﹐您認為政府還能提供一些其他什麼樣的幫助﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕創造更多的就業機會。比如﹐如果其他什麼產業需要政府的資助﹐政府應該幫助他們。比如說旅遊業﹐這是這個地區主要的收入來源。所以﹐要幫助旅遊業﹐刺激旅遊業的發展。我想﹐如果越來越多的人來紐約﹐我們就能夠多向政府交稅。所以﹐這不是單行道﹐而是雙行道。政府能夠從中獲利﹐民眾也能從中獲利﹐所以我覺得這是個好主意。</p>
<p>問﹕我們先前談到愛國﹐以及您對愛國的理解。我想知道﹐作為一位移民﹐在移民不是受歡迎﹐或美國的移民政策有很大變化﹐人們來這裡越來越困難的時候﹐您有沒有覺得那些公眾的看法對您個人有影響﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有。儘管我是公民﹐但我認為我是二等公民。我們不像那些在這裡土生土長的美國人﹐或在美國出生的人﹐我們是歸化後的公民。但至少從我們受到的中國教育中﹐我們知道如果這個國家為我們做了一些事情﹐我們也要有所回報。我在這個國家接受了教育﹐而且我在這裡學到和獲得了很多東西﹐我也應該為這個國家做些貢獻。我就是這樣看待愛國主義的。<br>
<br>
問﹕您有沒有感覺在911之後﹐外國人不太受歡迎。我覺得在那之後美國對很多人已經關閉了大門。您是否也有同感﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕是的。人們比以前更加親近了﹐比以前更願意幫助別人﹐特別是在911發生後不久。紐約的警察也比從前更加友善。我都能夠感覺到﹐他們不再是發號施令﹐他們變得很通融。這是我們以前沒有體驗過的事情﹐感覺﹐或是環境﹐從來沒有﹗當時﹐人們更加願意互相幫助﹐有更多的自由。各個種族之間也沒有界線。在那個時候﹐就好像是人與人之間關係上的最佳時期。</p>
<p>問﹕在那之後﹐這些有沒有改變﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕又恢復到911之前的狀況。但至少我們知道人們會做到我剛纔講述的那樣﹐這不是每個人天生能夠做到的。</p>
<p>問﹕您有沒有考慮過要參加競選擔任公職﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我認為我不符合資格。向政府官員提建議或表達自己的意見是好事情﹐但我認為我不適合做那個位置﹐我不感興趣。</p>
<p>問﹕您有沒有支持過一些什麼競選的活動﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕有一些。我們支持過很多市議員。在(Governor George E.) Pataki競選連任州長的時候﹐我們支持過他。在Kathryn Freed﹐我們當地的女議員﹐競選議員和公眾代言人的時候﹐我們也支持過她。但她沒有選上。這次﹐她競選法官。我不知道她能否被選上﹐但我投了她的票。我相信她選上了。另外一個是Jerome O'Donovan。我們給了他一些經濟贊助﹐因為我們不在那個區。在Mark Green競選市長的時候﹐我們也支持了他。還有誰﹖我們支持過(Rudolph W.) Giuliani和(Daivd Norman) Dinkins。<br>
<br>
問﹕您講的“我們”指的是誰﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我們的協會。</p>
<p>問﹕The Garment Manufactureres Association﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕是的﹐因為我不是以個人的名義做這些事情的﹐而是以團體的名義。</p>
<p>問﹕我記得您剛纔講過在您在Garment Manufactureres Association任職的時候和一些政府官員交涉﹐決定支持哪些人﹐以及向他們反映一些你們的實際問題。您能否再談一下您的那些經歷﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕好的。我記得在1986年﹐或者是80年代﹐Dinkins競選市長的時候﹐當時有個人曾擔任過MTA (Metropolitan Transportation Authority)的負責人---我不記得他的名字。我們支持他競選市長﹐但他在初選就落選了。我們支持他的原因是---我現在想起他的名字了﹕Dick Ratrich, Richard Ratrich。他競選的時候﹐我們整個協會都支持他。當時別人都不知道他這個人。但他曾是MTA的負責人﹐MTA的委員長。我不清楚我們為什麼支持他﹐但我們協會以前的主席說他可以幫助我們社區﹐可以替我們的社區講話﹐如果他當市長的話﹐他會幫助我們。</p>
<p>當時﹐我在從政上還是個新手---很多事情我都不懂。但是﹐我們還是支持他。後來﹐儘管他落選了﹐但這對我們還是一個好的經歷﹐我們懂得了如果我們要支持某個人﹐我們必須以團體的名義﹐而不是個人的名義。這就是我們的經歷。儘管我們失敗了﹐這個經歷還是比較成功的。</p>
<p>問﹕在哪些方面您認為是成功的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕我們為他籌集資金﹐有八百多人參加﹐這已經是很不錯了。這意味著我們有能力吸引社區民眾的關注﹐這是我們在那次集資行動上學到的事情之一。在此之後﹐我們懂得了怎樣搞集資﹐以及怎樣選擇我們支持的候選人。<br>
<br>
問﹕您認為現在政府能做些什麼來支持服裝業﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕這很難﹐因為現在很難改變他們已經做的事情。這就好像是單行路﹐你不能往回走的。比如﹐政府制定了NAFTA﹐北美自由貿易協定(the North American Free Trade Agreement)。他們已經制定了﹐這個協定損害了我們的產業。他們還有所謂的806-807協定﹐是美國和加勒比海國家制定的。這是犧牲美國的利益以使別的國家受益。所以﹐這也使我們的產業受到重創。</p>
<p>所以﹐就是這些他們已經做了的事情﹐現在﹐他們已經和很多國家有類似的協定。作為補償﹐他們和那些國家制定了一些其他方面的貿易協定﹐比如高科技或計算機方面的。但是﹐我認為如果他們想要支持這個產業﹐他們現在至少設法把百分之幾的市場要回來。這樣很多人的工作就業問題就會有很大的改善。這個產業﹐在鼎盛時期﹐能夠解決市里上百萬人的就業問題﹐這些工作都直接或間接地與這個產業有關係。一百多萬人。現在也許只有十萬﹐二十萬﹖比以前少多了。很多大的製造商都倒閉了。他們以前都搞得很大很大﹐但現在都沒有人知道他們了。很不幸﹐這就好像是歷史﹐是歷史的趨勢。一些產業衰落﹐另外一些產業開始紅火。</p>
<p>TAPE 002-2 SIDE B</p>
<p>問﹕我在想還有沒有其他事情我們沒有談到。您有什麼補充嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕你剛纔談到政府如何幫助這個產業。其實﹐我們的要求並不過份﹐我們只是要求比如說百分之五的市場。有了這百分之五﹐很多人都會有工作。</p>
<p>問﹕增加什麼的百分之五﹖<br>
<br>
WING﹕不是增加﹐是保持百分之五。比如說﹐有百分之百的進口。百分之百和百分之五。把這一部份帶回到這個國家﹐帶回到紐約﹐我們會創造十萬多個就業機會。我不是在開玩笑。</p>
<p>問﹕我記得您剛纔談過一件事情﹐我想再提一下﹐就是在唐人街的很多人不能夠選舉﹐或是不願意選舉﹐您為什麼認為這是個挑戰呢﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕正如我先前所講﹐很多人在唐人街做工﹐但不住在唐人街﹐所以他們沒有選舉權利﹐也許他們在他們住的地方有選舉權。有很多人做了選民登記﹐卻不參加選舉﹐我不知道為什麼。這也許是因為傳統上中國人不想和政府打交道。中國人很保守。他們不想和政府打交道是因為他們認為在活著的時候沒有必要和政府打交道﹐在死後﹐也不會下地獄﹐差不多是這個意思。所以﹐他們不想和政府打交道。他們認為﹐總是因為有不好的事才會需要和衙門打交道﹔或是牢獄之災或是吃官司等等。但這裡同中國不同﹐美國是個民主的國家﹐但他們還從來沒有時間來適應這裡的制度。所以﹐這需要一個教育引導的過程﹐我想再過一些年他們會逐漸有這方面的意識。而且﹐他們已經從一些組織﹐一些非盈利機構那裡獲得很多信息﹐比如中華公所(CCBA)﹐the Fujianese Association。那些組織機構經常會教育他們選舉的重要性等。</p>
<p>問﹕他們的看法有沒有改變﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕不多﹐但是在逐漸改變。我是這樣認為的﹐因為第二代人總是和第一代人的觀點不一樣的。</p>
<p>問﹕最後一個問題﹐我記得您剛纔說過﹐您認為CCBA和the Fujianese Association是兩個能夠牽頭帶動唐人街發展的組織﹐您是否認為他們能夠在一起合作﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕可以﹐為什麼不呢﹖<br>
<br>
問﹕您認為他們在合作上有什麼挑戰嗎﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕也許他們在政治上有一些衝突﹐因為他們一個支持台灣﹐一個支持中國大陸。他們的政治觀點不同。但是﹐在為社區謀利這方面﹐我想他們的目標是一致的﹐我認為應該是沒有什麼問題。</p>
<p>問﹕好的﹐您是否還有什麼要補充的﹖</p>
<p>WING﹕基本上﹐該談到的我已經都談到了。</p>
<p>問﹕非常感謝您能花時間接受我們的採訪。</p>
<p>WING﹕也謝謝你﹐我不知道我會不會對你們有所幫助。</p>
<p>問﹕我覺得您對我們有很大的幫助﹐這在現在和將來對很多人都會有很大幫助的。</p>
<p>WING﹕希望如此。我不知道---</p>
<p>（採訪完畢） </p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wing Ma
911DA Item
Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item.
Status
The process status of this item.
approved
Consent
Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item.
unknown
Posting
Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item.
unknown
Copyright
Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item.
unknown
Source
The source of this item.
transcription
Media Type
The media type of this item.
interview