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Title
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Dr. Sun Hoo Foo
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Ingrid Dudek
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-07-14
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
Dr. in Chinatown
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p lang="en-US" class="western" style="line-height: 150%; page-break-after: avoid">
Q: Today is July 14, 2004. I am Ingrid Dudek and this is the
Chinatown Documentation Project. Can we start by giving your name?</p>
<p>Foo: Dr.
Sun-Hoo Foo.</p>
<p>Q:
And your profession.</p>
<p>Foo:
I'm a doctor.</p>
<p>Q:
What I wanted to do today is talk about your personal and
professional background in relation to Chinatown and Chinatown
community medical needs and especially surrounding the events of
9/11. Let's start a little bit with your background.
</p>
<p>Foo:
Okay. I was trained at NYU. That was in 1976, Bellevue Hospital. I
was told at that time, “if you see a Chinese patient in
emergency room you are pretty sure they are very sick. They won't
come up there until they are very sick”. So pay attention to
them. After that I practiced -- my office was at 34th Street. And it
takes a while, like a year sometimes, for patients to come there to
see me for consultations. So at the end saw I should have office down
here so that they can come. Now, to a lot of Chinese, “uptown
is like a foreign land. It takes them years before they can go up
there. Mainly because of the language problem. They don't how to get
transportations. They don't know how to get there, and they're scared
to go to place so they are not in Bellevue unless they are very
sick.” So there was a reason of saying that. I think it's also
true right now on basic care. I work very closely with Chinatown
community. I'm a Director of Neurology -- I'm Director of Neurology
at Downtown Hospital. I'm also on the board there, working in the
hospital. We also have foundations called CCPH -- Chinese Community
Partnership for Health -- that we do a lot of health screening,
patient education in Chinatown area, because we know there's a
problem here. Now, of this thing that we did from the CCPH, I
published many articles on strokes. Now, strangely – and I'll
tell you this -- if you live around Chinatown area
there's official statistics that can tell you that
“young stroke rate is about 50% higher than any part of the
United States. By young, we mean anyone less than sixty years old”.
We also look at our patients in Downtown Hospital. We found “our
patient is seven years younger to have strokes compared with the
[Northern] Manhattan [population]”, you know, north part -- you
know, there was a study looking at different ethnicities, you know,
in northern Manhattan, to see how the strokes is. And they look about
-- look at them: black, Hispanic, but no Chinese. So we compare us to
them and it’s seven years younger. And of the person who have
strokes, many of them have brain hemorrhage. And as you know, the
incidence of cerebral hemorrhage, it's about eight percent in the
nation. But it’s up to 24% at Downtown. With hemorrhage in the
brain you have more [physical] deficit and give you more problem. And
we found that, although we cannot tell [if it’s properly]
genetic whether it is so, but we know many of our patients have
hypertension and it's never been treated. We also compared the data
we have from the Chinese Community Partnership for Health, the
screening. We have more [patent] hypertension, [and] more
hypertension not treated. If they are treated they are not following
up well. [We] also have a lot diabetes and hyper cholesterolemia, so
we know all these are respective. And I'm very happy I could work
with NYU recently. They have a grant [form the NIH to] establish
[the] Asian health center to look at the health disparity among
minority I think and it's starting very well. They just planning to
set up a [liver] center at Bellevue, and other things will probably
follow. And I hope that we can do a lot more for the communities.
</p>
<p>Q:
Obviously you have a great deal invested in the Chinatown medical
community. I just want to back up a little bit and talk about what
was your experience working in midtown and seeing how Chinese people
related to the health care system that brought you downtown? At what
point did you move your practice to Chinatown?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I worked at Downtown Hospital very early on. But the offices
were just like in the last six years.
</p>
<p>Q:
And you've been down here regularly for over twenty years?</p>
<p>Foo:
Right. Right.</p>
<p>Q:
Well, how have you seen, chronologically maybe, medical resources
changing in Chinatown in terms of what's available and how people
approach the medical system?</p>
<p>
Foo: Well, I think you have to tell about the approach in
two ways. One is, those who don't have insurance, [new] immigrants or
those who are American citizens and works here. Now, if you know that
we have a [medical] society [called] CAMS -- Chinese American Medical
Society -- that started in [the] 50s. It expand now, we have about
800 members, mostly locally, and of that membership we formed
something called CAIPA, so Chinese American IPA [Independent Practice
Association]. We partner with Oxford -- we have a health care network
of about two hundred physicians, and Dr. Tak Kwan is the president of
that [CAMS]. We are one of the most successful IPA, and it's the only
one that really do something for the [Chinese] community. Now, one
thing that's different from us and other IPA is, our doctors work
very hard. They work Saturday and Sunday, they open late, and Doctor
Tak Kwan our physician, our president, sometimes he finish [work
after] twelve o'clock. At night. So by doing that we are more
accessible to patients. Especially a lot who do two or three jobs,
and they have no time to see doctors in the working hour. They can't
afford to do that. So they come on weekend and see us. So I think we
are in touch with them on that wave. And also because of the culture
issues, we probably knows their problem better than other -- better
than our counterparts. Chinatown Clinic Health Clinic, also called
Charles Wang, is doing a lot for the communities. For those who can
afford and don't have insurance they really provide very good care.
But Downtown Hospital, as I mentioned earlier, we have also clinic
devoted for these communities. We established actually a Chinatown
Partnership for Health -- sorry, wrong name, Chinese Community
Partnership for Health -- that do regular screening, you know, radio
shows. Health talk in different [public] places and workplace so that
we get a message that, personally, and Dr. Tao and Dr. Leung and I in
the office have a bi-weekly column at the World Journal that we
publish regularly, the health issues in that newspaper and it is, of
course, written by the staff reporter [reporter Eva Pan]. And at the
end of it [the article] we do have numbers, with a hotline for
patients to call, so [if] there's a problem regarding any health
issue they have, or insurance, they can call. And this is staffed by
CCPH of Downtown Hospital. Sometimes I get calls from Vancouver or
Florida to ask for help. So this is how we try to get to the
community to help them.
</p>
<p>Q:
So all of these professional networks are partially directed at
getting the community to engage with their own medical. Do they also
pick up the slack for people who don't have insurance?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, just the Chinatown Health Clinic, the Charles Wang Community
Center. But from a professional standpoint there is more exciting
happening. CAMS -- Chinese American Medical Society -- is not only
local but national. We also form [an] international [organization].
This is something called Federation of Chinese
American Medical Society, [we] partner with a
physician, Chinese physicians from Toronto, Vancouver, and trying to
talk about issues related to the Chinese community. We have a
conference, international conference, every two years. Between here
and San Francisco. This is the twelfth conference that's going to be
set up on October, this year, talk about all the issues that related
to Chinese patients. So the one I was talking to you about, like the
strokes, is presented in that place so that everyone knows. So you go
to our web site, you actually can see the abstracts of that. So we
try on our part to work on the communities, try to get people
interested in the issues. Because we do have problems that are not
related, or are much less important for other communities, but it's
important and it would be a big issue [for the nation] if it's not
treated. Chinatown -- The Chinese Community Partnership for Health
actually did a study not too long ago looking at hepatitis B in the
school. And we really are trigger a national response of having
everyone to have hepatitis B vaccine, because there's such a high
prevalence of hepatitis B in our communities. So it's almost become
epidemic, that you have to do something about it.
</p>
<p>Q:
Where does that come from?</p>
<p>Foo:
The hepatitis B? Well, it's from the kids, and we found that the
immigrants have high incidence than those that are born here. And
it's transmitted, you know, sexually, in close contact. So if you
don't treat that, it will be big health issue at the end and you can
develop hepatitis B and cirrhosis and hepatoma. So we actually
started it, NYU Downtown actually started that project.</p>
<p>Q:
You had mentioned earlier that one of the assets of all of these
organizations is that they're specific to the Chinese community and
understand the cultural issues that are involved. I'm wondering if
you could speak more on what you see the cultural issues are that are
related to the Chinese medical needs.</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, as you know that there's a Chinese traditional treatment for
diseases, talking about ying and yang, talking about hot and cold. If
you don't know that, it's very hard to treat them. Most of the
patients don't like to go to hospital because their language is a
problem and the customs are different. For example, this we have been
working for a long time is when they go to the hospital they want hot
water. They want warm water. They don't want to have cold water,
because cold is bad for you. And you ask the staff to give you hot
water, they think you're crazy. “No, we drink cold water.”
I mean, that small thing will give you trouble. You know? Or when you
eat you're not used to the Western food, so at Downtown do have cook
that specially do thing for them so that
they feel more comfortable. I mean, someone who are
sick in the hospital, all these small things get very bad. The other
thing is about getting blankets. When you sleep. You don't want to
have too much blanket on you. But traditionally they feel very cool,
they want two or three blanket. And the staff make it -- they feel
that, gee, you're crazy, you want three or four blankets, it's no
good for you. But however, that's how they used to. So small thing
like that can make a big difference. You take care of it.</p>
<p>Q:
I'm wondering, too -- you had mentioned that there were a number of
outreach programs, like on the radio and in the papers. Are those in
Chinese or how do they work?</p>
<p>Foo:
They're in Chinese. And although this is a very small community, I
think we have at least five or six newspaper, Chinese newspaper here,
if not more. And most of the immigrants, when they come here, they
don't have time to learn the second language. It's very hard for
adult to catch the second language, especially to work three jobs and
take care of the family. So all these things I'm talking about [are]
in Chinese, and [we’re] trying to get to them with their
language and then give them information that they need.
</p>
<p>Q:
So -- what -- I want to keep talking about the big picture in terms
of, like you've been describing a very pro-active situation in terms
of community and the medical institutions taking an interest in
specific community needs. Do you feel that has always been the case?</p>
<p>Foo:
I think the momentum is here now. I mean, it's coming up. I don't
think it's there before. The Asian Health Center just started. From
NIH, from the grant from NIH. In the past, no one cared about it.
Now,
</p>
<p>I
think the reason it accumulated to this point is, a lot of people are
doing the work. And the communities, the doctors, we've been trying
in the past and do that. And the hospitals did their part. You know,
the Downtown Hospital, sixty-five percent -- sixty-five percent of
patients are Asians. And they've been trying to work hard on trying
to set the committee. The Chinese Health Clinic also started like --
what? -- I guess twenty years ago. I can't tell you the exact time.
All this thing accumulate to the point that we all think that, we all
know that this is going to be important. And so we were very happy
then, you know. Today we have more people interested in trying to do
something about.</p>
<p>Q:
So you feel like it's the demographic change that people have to
respond to, the realities of the populations downtown…</p>
<p>Foo:
Yeah. I think people are more sensitive to -- to -- to minority
issue, because they are not just isolated, they're important. And
they not just affect the community itself, but if is not taken care
of you affect the whole country as such. So in the past when you at
journal, you look at study, we're talking about big population, we're
talking about white, we're talking about -- you know -- Spanish,
we're talking about blacks. But not so much about Asians. But the
[Asian] population [is] increasing. We have about fourteen percent
[annual] increase in Asian population here, in downtown area. And
they get older, too. And they get sick, they get sick, too. So I
think, you know, we need to look at the issues.</p>
<p>Q:
So prior -- so prior to, say, this moment, has the burden is mostly
the burden has mostly been on informal organizations to do the
outreach?</p>
<p>Foo:
You see, there's no, really, there's no organized effort to do it. I
think Asian Health Center is the first one to try to use, to organize
everyone together to work on these issues. And I'm very happy -- for
example, I just mentioned that the liver center is established. Right
away. And so when people looking at hepatitis B, cirrhosis, hepatoma
issues on it. But before we reached that stage a lot of community
people are working on it, to take care of the people, and voice that,
you know. Not too long ago, I think, we have this Town Hall meeting
-- this is initiated by the White House -- going to different places
and talk about what the [health] issue is. Downtown Hospital, Chinese
American Medical Society, and our counterpart in California --
there's a Chinese hospital there -- who will study on the program,
taking your elderly and pick up all the information. We all went to
the Town Hall and speak about it. I don't know if that triggered it
but that, I think, helps. Because everyone is interesting and could
join efforts and do something about it.
</p>
<p>Q:
What about post 9/11 issues? Because I know there have been, sort
of, complaints or concerns that they were toxins in the air downtown,
and that there was a specific medical commissions that were directed
towards the downtown community. Did that -- did that outreach make it
to Chinatown community? What is your sense of post-9/11 issues?</p>
<p>Foo:
9/11 was a very traumatic experience. I know that first hand,
because our hospital is at Ground Zero. Although no one talk about
it. Because we're right there, and no reporter can say there's no
electricity, there's no telephone, and we functioned, just because of
the good will of the workers there they do their best. We actually
used cellular phones. And we have an emergency
generator. Even at that difficult time we were able to go out for the
communities and give them water, take care of the medical needs of
the senior center that involved with the hospital. Also, because of
[the blocking of] traffic, it's even hard for our patients to reach
us, and we have a van go out to the community and get them organized.
So there was immediate help, but after that I think the economy
suffered a lot in this area. So this will affect patients able to get
health care. Because they lost their job, they don't have things to
do. Now, as far as the issue they're talking about, the pulmonary
system, I think NYU have a team that comes down, and I think they
registered people who are here that were exposed to that to see what
will happen long term-wise. I'm a neurologist, I'm not a
pulmonologist, I couldn't talk too much about that. But I think they
are -- people are looking at it. I'm not sure it's enough target on
that. But it really takes a lot of effort, a lot of coordination
budget-wise to do it. So I don't know how far we are in that. But,
yes, this may come out in the next few years, whether we all will
have more pulmonary consequences on the exposure. But
</p>
<p>I
think that the main thing is the economy-wise, because we do lost a
lot of patients. Because of their loss of their jobs they lost their
insurance. They wouldn't be able to see patients. So that could be a
problem.
</p>
<p>Q:
Have there been any efforts to ameliorate that issue in terms of
economic loss and its relationship to health care?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I think all of us working on this are trying to get helped.
For example, I work at Downtown, I work very closely with them.
Because of this problem, patients couldn't get to us, there's less
patients coming in, and we could not help them. So we were trying to
get help from the federal and from, you know, philanthropy to help
the hospital in this financially stressed time. So that we can be
strong and we can serve the communities. We are asking for help. We
are -- we are looking at -- a lot of people are offering help so we
need more.
</p>
<p>Q:
I know you work in neurology, but I was wondering if you could
speak to your general sense of how Chinatown was affected by 9/11,
generally or perhaps in terms of medical needs.</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, we have Charles Wang that, in theory, will help anyone that
needs help, whether you have money or not, or insurance or not, they
will be able to help you. The question is whether, because of the
economy down-turn, that [the resident will] have time to look into
[their health issues], and you know that. I mentioned earlier before,
because “when you see them in the emergency room they are very
sick, otherwise they won't come in”.
So you have to -- if they have to support to put food
on the table -- they don't have time to go to see doctors, you can go
to Chinatown Health Clinic or you can go to the Downtown Hospital,
the clinic that we have is supposed to help them if they come and ask
for it. We do encourage them to come. The question is whether they
can come or not, you know, because of the -- they have to work on the
other side. So I think we need a lot of help there. We have to revise
economy in Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
A lot of the reports that have come out have fixated on whether
asbestos affects the issue and whether or not [INAUDIBLE], but it's
like the picture you're painting is more that the institutional
structures are there but the problem really is outreach and access.
</p>
<p>Foo:
Right. I think they could come in, we will help them more. Not to
say that there's no increased asthma or other problems. I think, yes,
they were affected. The other thing I want to stress is that the
institutions are trying to research on this [cell phone rings] and
see if all this effect can be studied and we can find a better way of
treating, if it affects us.</p>
<p>Q:
So what would you anticipate then is, say, a medical issue that is
so far unaddressed, that you would like to see in the future.</p>
<p>Foo:
You’re not talking in particular about 9/11, all right? Okay.
See, we have our own things. Let’s say, nasopharyngeal [NPC]
cancer. If you see that, it has to be Chinese or Asian, not other
races. There's a lot of things to deal with it. Stroke issues, why we
have so much [cerebral] bleed. Is that just because they are more
hypertension that are not treated, or genetically there's a problem
in it? The health issues, I mean, all this risk factor can be
modified if it change. And there's a public health issue that can we
get the message to the people and help them with that? Hepatoma,
hepatitis B, I mentioned earlier on, “if you see a big liver,
it is Asian, it is usually a tumor”. If other races, it could
be due to, you know, big liver, fatty liver. But not Chinese. If you
see that. When I went to medical school I was told -- I was trained
in Taiwan – “when you see a big liver in Chinese patient
it has to be hepatoma, nothing else”. So that's something that
we know. Infectious diseases like TB, the immigrant may have the
[infected area] focus in the lung, or they may be infected and if not
treated adequately it could become a problem when they get older. So
all these are issues that we have to work on and find out. Now,
[beeper sound] traditionally people think that Chinese are a model
minorities that don't have any problem. And we always thought that we
are quite good, our cholesterol is very low, but you don't get the
statistic our
cholesterol actually is quite high. Now maybe because the
Western food that we are eating over here, but that's an issue. It's
not, you are thin so you don't have cholesterol problem. We also
have a lot of osteoporosis. Fractured hips and things like that. And
that's because of either genetic issues or because of the
environment, you know, the food we're taking, or we're not exercising
enough. So there are a lot of issues there that we have. Now, one of
the things that Dr. George Liu [CAIPA president] is interested in is,
we don't have even the normal data on us. Osteoporosis is just for
Western data, not the Asian data. We should be able to look into
that. And do it. So this Asian Health Center we established is trying
to encourage people to do research and get grants and study all these
issues. I think, in the next few years, I think we should be able to
help us by working concentrated on this [Asian health], and having
people interested in this.
</p>
<p>Q:
So these are all issues that you feel can be identified uniquely to
Chinese people or Chinese communities. I'm wondering maybe more
specifically what kind of patients do you see, in terms of
background, in terms of what age people are.</p>
<p>Foo:
Me, myself?
</p>
<p>Q:
Yes.</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I see a lot of patients -- I'm an adult neurologist -- so I see
adults. But [due to] the nature of neurologist, we see a lot of older
people with strokes, coming with strokes, with Parkinson's Disease.
The geriatric population will eventually, you know, be what I serve.
I also see a lot of young people, a lot of migraine patients, a lot
of patients with back pains, [beeper sound] problems like that.
</p>
<p>Q:
So from that vantage point, I wonder if you could speak about how
you see your patient population having changed during your career at
Downtown. In terms of immigrant populations or economic backgrounds…</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I think, with the insurance changes recently, with this HMO
coming up, it makes a big difference as far as what I see and where I
see. And, you know, and I used to see a lot of stroke patients in the
hospital, and it still does, but, however, we have less patients in
the hospital because we are getting them out early from the hospital,
so hospital practice become less -- we have more outpatient practice.
Of course, it depends on where you [work]. I see my patients come in
two groups. One is young, working class, and with a stress or
migraine
headache
and with activities, you know, back pains. So that would be that
population. But for the older geriatric population, I see a lot of
stroke patients, patients with Parkinson's Disease, and chronic
disease.</p>
<p>Q:
And these people most often are coming to you through HMO's or other
kinds of -- ?</p>
<p>Foo:
Yeah, because HMO or just Medicaid, just geriatric populations.</p>
<p>Q:
I want to go back a little bit to the 9/11 issue and see if you
could talk a little bit more about what went on at the hospital, and
what kind of things went on immediately aftermath of 9/11.</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, if you are there the day of 9/11 it's amazing how the workers
devote themselves to do it. I was at NYU when this thing happened. I
was in a meeting. Came out and saw some smoke coming out from World
Trade Center. Immediately I thought that I should come down. So I
went to the garage to get my car, I turn around NYU three times, I
couldn't get down because everything is blocked. I mean, [the police
are] very fast at blocking. And I don't know what to do. And I think
a lot of people don't know what to do in that. But I was -- I went
there and talked to my daughter at Columbia [University] and she told
me, 'Why don't you call the police?' So I just figure I just go and
talk to a policeman. I said, 'Look, I have to go down to Downtown,
because I work there.' So, no problem, immediately they get me down
right away. But by the time I get down it's way too late. Because the
two buildings was already collapsed. Within minutes, I think, there
are more than four hundred people go to the emergency room covered
with dust, and it's taken care of by the hospital, for their
purposes. When I was there that wait is gone, and everyone is waiting
outside for ambulance to come. And we see ambulance come in, come
out, but really there are no patients coming in. We see mostly
injured workers, you know, firemen and policemen coming in. It was
very sad. But I cannot tell you, though, everyone is trying to do
their best to help, and no one is talking about anything except to
help the patients. The hospital covered by dust, no electricity, no
telephone service, but everyone's there waiting to serve. It was very
touching to look at it.
</p>
<p>Q:
And then?</p>
<p>Foo:
After that, I think after that, we really worked very hard, we
really have a hard time, because without telephone, without
electricity, it's very hard to work there. But everyone have a spirit
high up, and help each one, help everyone, [we went out] to the
neighborhood [to offer help]. I think Dr. Logan at that time was
asking
doctors
and nurses to go to the surrounding senior citizens’ [homes].
Because there's no access to them. We [brought] them water and try to
take care of their health needs. So I thought that was very nice. We
try our best to do it with the limited [resources] that we have. And
after that, it still take a while before we get electricity back in.</p>
<p>Q:
How long did that go on?</p>
<p>Foo:
I really don't remember. It was a while ago. I know but it takes a
long time to do it. No one talk about, you know, when they get paid,
or whether they sick, or it's overtime, things like that -- they
would just do it. So that was very good. And you look at a lot of
nice people. You are very happy about that. After that, we do suffer,
because there are a lot of roadblocks. Patients could not come into
the hospital because they had to walk through all these blockades --
they are even there now. So patients don't come to the hospital, so
we have a problem because they couldn't come access us. But I think
it works out now.</p>
<p>Q:
How long was it before things normalized somewhat?</p>
<p>Foo:
In the hospital?</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Foo:
Oh, dear --</p>
<p>[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]
</p>
<p>Foo:
Oh, dear, it takes a while, and I don't think it's still normalized
right now. Because it does affect our -- the -- the -- the referral
from the surrounding places even now. I mean, you know that the
Chatham Square is still blocking there, right, so it's very hard to
get from there to the hospital from that routes. And you cannot go to
the FBI where the [INAUDIBLE] school and the building is to get to
there. So we have a van service that is free for patients to come
from Chinatown. We take them over to the hospital. But it's still not
convenient. But anyway, we try to cope. We try to cope. We do our
best.</p>
<p>
Q: What was the general feeling in Chinatown at that time?</p>
<p>Foo:
About the 9/11?</p>
<p>Q:
Post 9/11.</p>
<p>Foo:
Oh, it was terrible. You know, you are here, at that time, I
remember -- I never see anything closed down -- closed -- in Mott
Street. And I think not too long after the 9/11, I saw two or three
restaurants that are closed in Mott Street. Which never happened
before. And all the garment factories -- I'm told that there may be
more than a hundred factories close down around this area, because
there's no way you can get the product out of the place. There's no
traffic. You can not get out. And being they're in trouble already,
this just kill it. I'm told that now, if you want to have office in
Chinatown it's very easy, because there's a lot of space opening up
in the garment factories. So it's easier to get, and therefore real
estate sending the rents coming down, and all that. But I think, if
you know about Chinatown, the places that are closed down in Chatham
Square -- it's [where] all the buses stop there for tourists to come
and buses stop there. The tourists will go from that place, Mott
Street, and go around and visit Chinatown. Being no bus over there,
there's no traffic. So it's very quiet. I think it's better but, at
that time, I think, during 9/11 even though you come to support the
restaurants you can go in and you be the only one there in the
restaurant. So it affects the economy very badly. What else I can say
about it?
</p>
<p>Q:
At what point were different medical institutions responding to
medical needs especially in Chinatown? You talked about Charles Wang
but then there are also federal and state initiatives in Chinatown.
Did those hit Chinatown?</p>
<p>Foo:
Right. I guess it's all done locally. All locally, by local
community. The Charles Wang, Downtown Hospital, physicians, they
would just volunteer to take care particular patients. And actually,
when the plane hit here a lot of Chinese physicians at Downtown. And
suddenly this community volunteer and close their shops, close the
office, and go to the hospital to volunteer their time. It's very sad
that we had more doctors than patients given the events, but, really,
there were a lot of people going to help. Now, some of the time -- I
think, at that point, when it happened, most of the office are
closed. Not because the doctor don't want to come, but he just no
have access. You can't come here. And patients have no access to come
to see you. I was in the hospital for some time, so hospital is open
all the time. Anyone who wants care can come in. So I think it's a
local effort
to
do that. Of course, it's not like the SARS or whatever, that we had
to mobilize the whole nation to it. There's no need for that. It's
probably all local effort. And everybody thinks it's probably busy,
about what would happen during that time. And I don't think there is
any special need. My son was a medical student at that time. They
went to -- what is that, on the west -- the government actually set
up a whole operating place in the Chelsea place, where you have many
operating tables there. But, again, there's nothing [happening]
there. Everything is set up. I think the government come and respond
very fast on the disaster. But there's really no patients that
require their help.</p>
<p>Q:
Not in that way.</p>
<p>Foo:
Not in that way, right.
</p>
<p>Q:
So you're sense is that the effects may be long term or --</p>
<p>Foo:
Right. What will happen in the future. But I think whatever
emergency at that point, it happen within seconds. Nothing help after
that.</p>
<p>Q:
You mentioned the SARS scare. What was your experience with that
like? How was it different?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, it was very bad. I think it was [sounds like] worse. Now, at
that time, although we know that there's no SARS in Chinatown yet,
people look at us and say, 'Well, you're Chinese, you must have
SARS.' So no one come to Chinatown to restaurant to eat at that
point. If anyone is here you see all Chinese there, because we say
we'll support the community, we'll come in here. And there's nothing
-- so people worry about catching SARS, and this may be the place
that you will have it. But fortunately we don't have SARS, but
unfortunately it [did] affect the economy very badly.
</p>
<p>Q:
How long will that go on?</p>
<p>Foo:
I can't tell you the time, but it [did] go on for a long time. Yeah.
I think now the economy's catching up, but I think there are more
things to do. And I don't know what else. I mean, I'm doctor, I don't
know economy, but I think there are a lot of things you can do to
stimulate economy.
</p>
<p>
Q: I wanted to switch gears a little bit -- because you
mentioned your son was in medical school, and I wanted to get a
better sense of your personal history. Because you were trained in
Taiwan at the National Taiwan University --</p>
<p>Foo:
Right. Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you grow up in Taiwan?</p>
<p>Foo:
No.</p>
<p>Q:
Where --</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I was born in Malaysia. I was growing up in Brunei, and medical
school in Taiwan. Well, I think it's -- my family's spreading all
over the place. Some are in Australia, and one was in Canada. That
happened when my father moved down to Malaysia [from China]. And the
reason for that is because of the war. So we were sent up there.</p>
<p>Q:
At what point did you come to the States?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, what happened is, is I think it's very tough to grow up in
Malaysia and Brunei, because you're so afraid that you don't have the
identity. Although I work very well and very friendly -- I have a lot
of friends in different places. So when I was in Taiwan, actually, I
have a group of friends that are very interested in trying to make
medicine into Chinese. So I was at National Taiwan University. When I
graduate, our CR, which is Chief Resident, that translated Harrison
textbook in internal medicine to Chinese. So hopefully we can use
[Chinese] as a medium and probably get to our patients much easier.
So the first thing I did. And then, spinning from that, we got a
publication called Medicine Today that's targeted for practicing
physicians using Chinese as a medium, to familiar them with their
Chinese medical terms. And also, we spin out a magazine for public,
called Health [World], which is still ongoing right now. So I was
very proud that we could do that. And then, at that point, America's
the place where you further your medical knowledge, so my father
suggested, 'Why don't you go to America and learn more about it?' So
I came over here. And fortunately I went to St. Vincent's at
Bridgeport, and after that I went to NYU for my neurology training.
And after I finished, with my experience in Bellevue,
knowing that Asians don't go to hospital unless they
are very sick, I thought, well, maybe I should come down to
Chinatown. Be, you know, close to them. So they start all these
things.</p>
<p>Q:
In your work in translating the medical textbooks, was it because
the education system was not so standardized?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, at that point, because Americans is top as far as medicine is
concerned, so all the advanced knowledge, newer knowledge is from
[the U.S.]. And Chinese, well, don't really have access to that. So
if we can translate to Chinese we can bring this to more physicians,
and to more patients, it would be a good thing to do so they can do
it. One of the things very interesting at that point is [psycholody],
there was a psychiatrist, Dr. Tseng, [who] was trained in Hawaii,
came back and started a whole thing on us -- influenced really a lot.
He translated a lot of psychiatry literature, including dream
interpretations from Freud -- which I was part of together with my
friends. So we tried to bring that knowledge to China. Now, talking
about something, we do have problems, you know, of mental health in
this area [Chinatown]. I don't know if you know that the suicide
rates, you know, in elderly female are very high. Because of the
culture changes most of the immigrants come here, work for the
family, raise the family, and the children, although are very
excellent, they don't necessarily have the same culture or the same
thinking as [their parents]. And therefore, when they get old, when
they retire, some get lost and don't know where to go. And it's very
easy to see all the Chinese patients, geriatrics, you know, and found
that they have depressions. They're all very depressed because [they
think] it's time for them to die. There's nothing else to do. So Dr.
Chung, Henry Chung, a psychiatrist, is trying to get a grant, work on
the mental health issue on the area. And I think that's very great
still. Also, part of the Asian Health Center that just started,
that's the main issue I think we look at. So talking about
twenty-something years ago, we think there's something to work on,
and we need it now.</p>
<p>Q:
You actually brought this up earlier, kind if in a different way, in
terms of making Western medicine more amenable to Chinese cultural
needs. Do you feel that psychology is difficult to address as sort of
a really Western practice?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I think you have to look at the cultures. Chinese and Western
are very, very different.
</p>
<p>I
don't even know about the -- one of the main classics in China called
'Dream of the Red Chamber'. If you look at that and the spirit tells
you how the Chinese structure is, family structure is, none of us [as
individuals] are
very
important -- the family is important. And you are important because
you are important in the family. So Jia Boyi, the young man hero in
it, is just an ordinary person, but because he will inherit -- you be
the spokesperson for the family, so everyone try to be friend with
him and make him very important. If you lost that [status], you are
not there any more. So in Chinese culture all of us are part of the
whole family, and not individual. It's very different from the
person who [is raised in the West]. The [second generation] Chinese,
the immigrants over here, adopt the cultures here. It's very
different, and I think even in China, because of the world is getting
smaller, everything change. So you need -- you do need to look at
that. It's very hard for a Chinese to see a psychiatrist, because
it's such a shame -- you know, you're “crazy”, that's why
you go to see someone. But -- but, it's not true. I mean, there are
things that you can not talk, and value system has changed, so I
think we have to work on that and help our people.</p>
<p>Q:
So maybe this is another need.</p>
<p>Foo:
Oh, yeah. This is the biggest need, I think. The health, the mental
health issue, is a big need that everyone ignore. Now, it's rare to
see a Western psychiatrist, also, because the culture's different.
And the way you express is very different. And maybe you have
something to say, you cannot express in English, and he just not
going to help you.</p>
<p>Q:
Is there a large Chinese psychology movement or mental group, even?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I think we are starting. Of course there are -- being, you
know, there are a lot of Asians now in the United States. There are
more Asians study medicine and some of them will be a psychologist.</p>
<p>Q:
To back up again…</p>
<p>Foo:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
You have said after Taiwan you came to the U.S. and that's when you
got interested in the Chinese community here. Do you live in
Chinatown?</p>
<p>Foo:
I don't live in Chinatown. I live in New Jersey. I thought -- at
that time, when I first started,
</p>
<p>
I was a resident. And I look at the Water tower -- there's a
building there. And finally I don't have money to live there. I
think I am the same as [any other] immigrant when I came here with
nothing in my hands. So if I pay all my salary in renting apartment
my kids wouldn't be happy, and they would be disappointed. So I
decided to go to Elmhurst, and stayed, and my friends helped me to do
it. And when they get older I thought that, gee, they may want to be
more in the culture, in the society, so the only way I can do is go
to the suburb, where they'll be happy, with many -- with a lot of
rooms to grow up. So I went to New Jersey, North Jersey, and raised
them there.
</p>
<p>Q:
But even so, professionally and personally, you remain engaged in
the Chinese and Chinatown community obviously.</p>
<p>Foo:
Right. Right.</p>
<p>Q:
Is there a community in Jersey?</p>
<p>Foo:
No.
</p>
<p>Q:
… where you live?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I live in a very small community, but my main activities in
Chinatown and Elmhurst. When my kids are small I took them to Chinese
school. And if you are Chinese family, you know how hard that is. I
took them, you have free time on Saturday and Sunday, I took them to
school. They hate you forever. I have four children. I managed to do
it with [the first] two, and the other two I gave up. I gave up.
Because it's really a torture. They speak English, they don't speak
Chinese in school, their friends speak English. You ask them to learn
a language that's very tough and hard. They wouldn't do it. But
fortunate thing, the world's getting smaller. When they go to college
they realize that -- there's a language they have to learn. They have
to learn. So they major in Chinese in college. And that -- and that
-- because of that, I set up a web site thinking that I know
something and I may be able to help them to learn Chinese and also
know [some things about] Chinese cultures. And not only for them.
Because I'm not sure how you affect them. So I put on a web site so
that anyone, or my colleagues, can see it, and anyone who would like
to know something about Chinese will be able to learn it.</p>
<p>
Q: Have your kids taken up Chinese?</p>
<p>Foo:
Oh, yeah. They major in Chinese in college. In college. I was
surprised, because, you see, I learned Chinese the traditional way --
you speak, go to school, you read it, and we know, we used to it, to
learn it. So we don't use “pinyin” using the alphabet to
learn it. But what I found one day, my kids can say Chinese can say
Chinese, can read Chinese, and find all the words. And I thought that
they could not do it. So I found out -- I went to Internet using
“pinyin”, typing “pinyin”, and they can found
the Chinese words. And they can write it down. So it triggered me and
motivated me to learn that. So by using that tool [“pinyin”],
I said, oh, maybe I can tell them what I want to tell them, which I
was not successful when they were younger. So [I] try to do that. One
of the things I'm very interested in doing is [to teach them] to
learn Chinese from painting. And when you look at a lot of Chinese
painting, you love them, it looks good, but the -- you know, the
words, the calligraphy of some really doesn't make sense to you. You
don't know what it is. It looks good, but you don't know what it is.
It's very important if you know what they're saying. Because that is
part of the painting. One example I tell them, you can see my site,
is lotus. Now, you may be surprised why there are so many lotus in
Chinese painting. There is something like that. But there -- there's
essay -- there was a essay reading on Lotus, and give you a lot of
meanings to it. There's a lot of symbolic things that we do that.
Well, on the site, I cite the calligraphy, I cite where it come
from, I put down the whole essay. But there are a few things that are
very important, I think, that they want to learn. Just a few words.
It not only help them to build their vocabularies, [but] know the
Chinese culture at the same time. So, why Lotus? Lotus is grown from
a very dirty, muddy pond. But the flowers are very beautiful. The
fragrance is very delight[ful]. It symbolizes the gentleman. You
don't have to come from wealthy family. Not to say that's bad. But
you can come from any ordinary circumstance. Even from the mud. But
you can be a gentleman, and be very good, if you take care of
yourself and learn about it. So that's what it is.</p>
<p>Q:
I'm sorry. Just to back up to Chinatown. As an immigrant coming
over, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you've
seen Chinatown change.</p>
<p>Foo:
You see, there are two type of immigrants, the Chinese -- I'm in the
fortunate one. Because I'm professional. At that time, during the
Korean war, there's a need for physicians. So everything is helping
me to establish my -- oh, I'm sorry, Vietnam war -- everything is
there to help a doctor establish a practice and help me to raise my
family over here. So I don't have to go to a restaurant and be a
waiter, or try to get things. I've got my job immediately when I come
here. All I need to do is polish up my English, get medical training.
But
financially,
I'm okay. It's different from those who have to change their
professions, who have no means of doing what they do well in their
countries, to start from nothing. Without language, without place,
crammed in Chinatown. The only thing you can do is either go to
garment factories, or go to a restaurant and work as a waiter.
There's no other jobs for you to do. So it's very miserable for a
professor to come here and do that. And in fact one of my teacher
came here, stay for two weeks and then went home. Because he could
not stand it. I mean, it's very degrading, a principal of a school
coming here to be a waiter. So very different things. I'm very
fortunate I can be on this side. But for immigrants, a big struggle.
Not only that you've changed but you don't have enough money, you
have to raise the children, you have to wait from the tables. A lot
of times they actually have to work two or three jobs to do that. So
they're not taking care of themselves, health-wise or education-wise.
So it's very, very sad. But I think you can say that for any
immigrants. Not just Chinese, but --</p>
<p>Q:
Would you say that's still the case for Chinatown?</p>
<p>Foo:
Yeah. I mean, those who come over here, unless they're professional,
they go to college, study, and do that, yes, they have to struggle
for the same thing. That's why garment factories, restaurants is very
important for them. With the economy downturn, I think, it's very bad
for these immigrants to come here. Now, you go to Chinatown, you go
to where they live, you'll be amazed at some -- how small the space
is, how they crowd in a place. And how they have to work to make ends
meet.</p>
<p>Q:
Chinatown has such a long history of different waves of immigration,
and it seems like there's always kind of a struggle to maintain a
community identity, because once an immigrant, say, by second
generation, has a bit of success, they're likely to move. Do you have
any sense of how that's changed over the years? Do people come back
more often now invest as in a way you have in services to the
community and to Chinatown?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, I guess people who grew up from China had to go out, right?
You can't just keep everyone over here. So, especially, you're doing
something they are not, limited to local activities. So a lot of
people could help. But I wish a lot more Chinese that are successful
out there would come back and help [the community]. For example, we
have tried to raise money for the hospital, because we have
sixty-five percent of population are Chinese. It's hard to have
successful Chinese come up from the Chinatown or come here to give us
money so they can do more works for the communities. They're happy to
give money to Columbia, to Harvard, because
there's a prestige in doing it. To help a local
community hospital may not be in their mind. But I wish they'd change
their mind and help us more, so they can help more people here.
</p>
<p>Q:
Can the hospital appeal to the state or the government, or is it all
philanthropy?
</p>
<p>Foo:
Oh yeah, yeah, of course, you know it must be the federal to help
us. And if you know, in the last few years we even have Hong Kong --
Hong Kong stars to come and help us to raise money for this Chinese
Community Partnership for Health. We have a concert every two years,
and we have a lot of community help to help us to do that. So we do
have people that want to help us, but we need more.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you feel like medical institutions like your hospital are, in
that sense, insufficiently recognized as important to the community?</p>
<p>Foo:
No, I think people recognize it's important. The question is whether
people will say, 'Okay, I will help you' more -- because you can't
have people give you money to spend to use it with a -- with coming
up with of the 9/11, and what happened to hospital is -- is we have
less fund coming in for us. Now, give you example, right? Let's say,
if their operating budget is a hundred million dollars. If your HMO
cut down your reimbursement ten percent, well you lost ten million
dollars. Everything else is the same. What if your [number of]
patients drop, okay, [then] expenses goes up. We're only talking
about small money. So we really have to do a lot to try to make the
budget meet. But, you know, we do need people to help with that. We
need people to help out with -- with the equipments, with things so
that we can better service the community. I'm not saying that we
don't have, but we need more.</p>
<p>Q:
So the economic downturn affects everybody.</p>
<p>Foo:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Then what would you -- what would you like to see for the future of
Chinatown? How do you see the future in Chinatown?</p>
<p>Foo:
Well, Chinese people are very industrious. They work very hard. They
complain not that much.
</p>
<p>
I think, you know, I want the Chinatown to prosper. What I
can see there is that unless the economy change, it's maybe hard,
now. We rely on garment factories, restaurants, tourists to this
place. We have [a lot of] problem after 9/11. So it would be hard for
us to do things. With new immigrants coming in they probably will
concentrate in this area because the language issues, so we need more
people working on that, giving them resources. Now, things that I
mentioned earlier about the Asian Health Center establish, and we can
do a lot more things for the community. This will help them help us
to identify the problem, and help their health needs. The other thing
I'd like to do is let more people interested in Chinese culture. I
think it's very important. If you talk to people and people
interested in your culture know what you are, it's a way of
communicating. And that's why I put some of my efforts in “learning
Chinese”. Not to say Chinese is superior than any other
language, but it's a kind of culture for the last 5,000 years.
There's something that's there that we can help other people to
understand. So language is a problem. But you make it easy, which the
computer that we have, and the new software that we have, other
people will understand us more, and it will be great for America
because we have a multi-culture society and it all works together, we
know each other well, we can probably make this country a better
place.
</p>
<p>Q:
Thank you.</p>
<p>Foo:
Okay.</p>
<p>Q:
Is there anything you would like to say before we finish?</p>
<p>Foo:
I’d like to work with the museum [Laughter] I was thinking
about the -- giving more for the museum standpoint -- is giving more
about the Chinese culture. It's one of the things I think, that I
come across, is about the last name, surname thing. My father is very
interesting, gave me about twenty volumes of the Foo genealogy that's
published in different times. From that I can trace by my ancestor --
direct ancestor -- up to the first one. And even more than that. So I
think that's very important, is how we trace our ancestors. How in
the world you can know that. There are generation poem that we have.
So, you know, most of the Chinese have three names, right? We don't
have last name, we have surname. The surname is the first one. And
the last one actually is your own name. In the middle is a generation
name. You get your generation name from a generation poem. So if we
both had the same surname, if I tell you what my middle name is you
know my rank in the family. We sort of
lost that nowadays, but I think it's something that
might be interesting people to understand, our Chinese culture, how
it comes. So I want to talk to the museum about that.</p>
<p>Q:
So there's a cultural history there that is -- as you were saying,
it's so much more than just Chinatown as
</p>
<p>a
tourist spot.
</p>
<p>Foo:
Right. Right. Right. It's important for people to understand how
Chinese functions, how Chinese structure is, yes. So there's what’s
in reading of name. Actually there’s a lot of classics, too,
look at my site. I'm working on that.</p>
<p>Q:
All right. Thank you so much.</p>
<p>Foo:
Okay. Nice to talk to you. Anything I can do, let me know.
</p>
<p>[END
OF INTERVIEW]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:今天是2004年7月14日。我是Ingrid Dudek,唐人街文件專案(Chinatown Documentation Project)。你能不能先講一下你的姓名?</p>
<p>FOO:Sun-Hoo Foo博士。</p>
<p>問:還有你的職業。</p>
<p>FOO:我是醫生。</p>
<p>問:我今天採訪的內容是關於你個人以及你的職業背景,主要是圍繞唐人街和唐人街社區的醫療需要,尤其是關於9/11事件。我們先談一下你的背景。</p>
<p>FOO:好的。我是在紐約大學讀的醫學院。那是在1976年,Bellevue醫院。那個時候別人跟我講,“如果你在急診室裏看到中國病人,他們應該是已經病得很重了。如果他們的病不重,他們不會來看醫生的。”因此,要多注意一下他們。在那之後,我在---我的辦公室在34街。過了很長一段時間,差不多是一年之後,才有病人到那裏看病。因此,我後來在這裏租了間辦公室,方便他們就醫。現在,對於很多中國人來講,“上城就像是國外一樣。很長時間之後他們才會去那裏。主要是語言上的障礙。他們不知道怎麽去。他們不知道怎麽去,他們怕去陌生的地方。因此除非他們病得很重,否則他們是不會去Bellevue的。”看來,這種說法是有一定根據的。我想在基礎醫療方面現狀也依然如此。我的工作與唐人街社區的關係十分密切。我是神經科主任---我是市醫院神經科的主任。我也是院裏董事會的成員。我們還有一個基金會,叫做CCPH---華人社區醫療健康合作基金會(Chinese Community Partnership for Health)---我們在唐人街地區做很多醫療檢查和健康教育,因爲我們知道這裏存在這些問題。在CCPH從事的衆多工作裏面包括<br>
我出版的若干關於中風的文章。現在,很有意思的是---我會告訴你我爲什麽這麽講---如果你居住在唐人街地區附近,有官方統計“低年齡人的中風發病率大約是50%,是美國發病率最高的地區。我講的‘低年齡人’是指六十歲以下的人。”我們也統計過市醫院的病人。我們發現“我們中風病人的年齡普遍比曼哈頓[北部]人口低七歲”,北部---有人對曼哈頓北部不同種族中風患者做過調查。他們調查了---黑人,西班牙人,但不包括中國人。我們拿自己的情況跟他們的檢查結果做比較,發現我們患者的年齡要比他們小七歲。在患中風的病人當中,他們多數患有腦溢血。你要知道,國內腦溢血的發病率大約是百分之八,但在下城是24%。患腦溢血會給你肢體帶來諸多不便和問題。我們發現,儘管我們還不能確定這是否有遺傳因素,但我們知道大多數病人都還有高血壓,並且從未接受過治療。我們也同我們在華人社區醫療健康合作基金會統計的資料做過比較。我們有更多高血壓的病歷和未接受過治療的高血壓的病歷。或者是接受過治療,但沒有堅持跟進。我們還有很多糖尿病和高膽醇血病歷,因此我們知道所有這些方面的資料。同時,我很高興最近能與紐約大學合作。他們從NIH得到一筆經費,針對少數裔族存在的特殊健康問題而準備籌建一個亞裔健康中心,現在搞得還不錯。他們正計劃在Bellevue設立一個肝臟中心,今後將會設其他方面的中心。我希望我們能爲社區做更多的事情。</p>
<p>問:顯然,你在唐人街醫療社區投入了很多。我想先打斷一下,請再稍微談一下你在中城工作的情況,是怎樣看到華人對醫療健康問題的看法而使你決定要搬到下城來的?你是什麽時候開始在下城執業的?</p>
<p>FOO:我很早就在下城醫院工作。但診所是在六年前開的。</p>
<p>問:在近二十多年以來,你都定期來這裏嗎?</p>
<p>FOO:是的。</p>
<p>問:在你看來,從時間順序上來講,唐人街的醫療資源都有哪些變化,例如都有哪些服務,以及人們是怎樣看待醫療系統的?<br>
<br>
FOO:我想這要從兩個方面來講。一個是那些沒有保險的人,新移民,和那些在這裏工作的美國公民。你要知道我們有一個醫學團體叫作CAMS---美籍華人醫學協會---是從50年代開始創立的。現在越搞越大,我們有大約800個會員,大多是本地的。在這些會員中,我們又成立了CAIPA,美籍華人IPA[獨立執業協會]。我們與牛津合作---我們有一個由大約兩百名醫生組成的健康醫療系統,Kwan Tak博士是這個CAMS的主席。我們是最成功的IPA之一,而且是唯一一個面向華人社區的。現在,我們跟其他IPA不同的地方之一就是我們的醫生工作非常努力。他們星期六和星期日也在工作,很晚才關門。我們的醫生,我們的主席Kwan Tak博士有時工作到淩晨十二點。這樣,我們同病人有更多的交流。尤其是那些打兩份或三份工的病人,他們在工作時間不方便看醫生。工作對於他們來講要更加重要。因此,他們周末的時候來這裏看病。因此,我想,從這個方面來講,我們跟他們一直都有聯繫。而且因爲文化方面的因素,我們可能比其他人更加瞭解他們的問題---跟其他醫生相比。唐人街健康診所,也叫作Charles Wang,爲社區做了很多事情。對於那些沒有保險但負擔得起醫療費用的病人,他們的確提供了非常好的服務。但下城醫院,如我剛才提到,我們有專門爲這些社區提供服務的診所。我們設立了唐人街醫療健康合作基金會---抱歉,不是這個名字,華人社區醫療健康合作基金會---負責定期的檢查工作,無線電透視。在不同的公衆場所和醫院診所做健康宣傳,我和我們辦公室的Tao博士、Leung博士要在世界日報上刊登一個半月刊的健康欄目,由編輯部記者[Eva Pan]撰稿。在文章末印有我們的熱線電話號碼,方便病人同我們聯繫。因此,如果他們有任何關於健康方面的問題,或者醫療保險問題,都能夠打電話跟我們聯繫。這是由下城醫院CCPH人員負責的。有時,我會收到從溫哥華或佛羅里達打來的求助電話。我們就是這樣爲社區提供服務幫助他們的。</p>
<p>問:所有這些專業系統在一定程度上使得社區能夠利用自己的醫療資源。他們是否也幫助那些沒有醫療保險的人?</p>
<p>FOO:只是唐人街健康診所,Charles Wang社區中心。但是,從職業角度上來講,還有更激動人心的事情。CAMS---美籍華人醫學協會---不僅是當地而且是<br>
全國性的機構。我們也設立了一個國際性組織,叫作美籍華人醫學協會聯盟(Federation of Chinese American Medical Society),我們與多倫多、溫哥華的中國醫生合作,探討華人社區的一些問題。我們每兩年舉行一次會議,國際會議,在這裏和舊金山。今年十月將是第十二次會議,探討中國患者的問題。我剛才跟你提到的,比如中風問題,要在那裏提出來,這樣大家都會知道。你會在我們的網站上看到相關的摘要。因此,我們盡力爲社區服務,儘量使人們對這些問題産生興趣。因爲我們確實有一些不相關的,或是其他社區的一些不重要的問題。但是這很重要,不解決的話,會成爲全國性的大問題。唐人街---華人社區醫療健康合作基金會不久前做了一項關於學校乙肝的調查。我們得到全國的回應,大家都去接種乙肝疫苗,因爲在我們社區乙肝非常流行。幾乎變成流行病,你不得不去治療。</p>
<p>問:是從哪里傳染來的?</p>
<p>FOO:乙肝?是來自孩子,我們發現,同在這裏出生的人相比,移民有很高的發病率。而且會通過性方式傳染。因此,如果你不治療,最終會成爲一個健康的大問題,你會染上乙肝、肝硬化和肝細胞瘤。因此,實際上是我們開始---,下城紐約大學開始這個專案的。</p>
<p>問:你剛才曾提到,所有這些組織的優勢之一是他們專門面向華人社區,瞭解相關的文化因素。你能否再談一下你所觀察到的與華人就醫需要相關的問題嗎?</p>
<p>FOO:你知道,中國有一套傳統的治療疾病的方法,關於陰和陽,熱和冷的理論。如果你不懂這些,治療起來非常困難。大多數患者不喜歡去醫院是因爲他們有語言障礙,而且習俗也不一樣。例如,我們這樣做了很長時間,即當他們去醫院的時候,他們要喝熱水。他們想要喝溫水。他們不想喝冷水,因爲冷的東西對身體有害。你要是叫醫護人員給你熱水,他們以爲你有問題。“不,我們喝冷水。”我是說,諸如此類的小事會給你帶來麻煩。再有,<br>
他們不習慣吃西方的食物,因此下城專門請了做中餐的廚師,這樣使他們感覺舒服一些。對於那些住院的病人,所有這些小事情都會有很大影響。另外一件事就是毛毯。在睡覺的時候,你不想蓋太多的毛毯。但習慣上,他們都覺得冷,想要兩或者三張毛毯。那些醫護人員---他們覺得,你瘋了,你想要三或四條毛毯對你沒有好處。但他們已經習慣了這些。所以,如此的小事情會帶來很多的不便。這些都是你要處理的事情。</p>
<p>問:我也想知道---你曾經提到無線廣播裏和報紙上有一些拓廣服務的專案。那些是否使用中文,以及是如何運作的?</p>
<p>FOO:是中文的。儘管這是一個非常小的社區,但我想我們這裏至少有五或者六份中文報紙,或者更多。對於成人來講,學習第二種語言相當困難,尤其是同時打三份工,而且又要照顧家庭。因此,我剛才提到的這些都是中文的,我們儘量使用他們的語言來開展工作,然後提供給他們所需的資訊。</p>
<p>問:我想要談一下大的方面,比如你談到一些醫療機構對服務某一特定群體感興趣等一些積極的事情。你覺得是否一貫都如此?</p>
<p>FOO:我覺得現在是有這種動力。我是說,這種動力越來越大。我覺得以前沒有。亞裔健康中心剛剛建立,是由NIH,NIH的經費創立的。在過去,沒有人關心這些。現在,我想,能夠到這種地步的原因在於有很多人在這方面努力。社區,醫生,我們過去一直都致力於這些事情。同時,醫院也在盡力。你要知道,下城醫院百分之六十的病人是亞裔。他們一直努力試圖設立一個委員會。華人健康診所也已創辦了---我想是二十年了。我不知道確切的時間。所有這一切使我們大家認識到---,我們大家都知道這是重要的。而且,當時我們也很高興。現在,有更多的人對這些感興趣。</p>
<p>
問:你是否認爲是下城人口狀況的變化使得人們不得不對此做出反應。</p>
<p>FOO:是的。我想人們更加在意---,對少數裔族的問題更敏感,因爲他們不僅被孤立,而且他們非常重要。同時,他們不僅影響社區本身,而且如果這些問題不處理好會影響到整個國家。因此,如果你看以前的文章報告,我們在談大多數人口,我們談白人,我們談西班牙人,我們談黑人,但沒有多少關於亞裔的。但亞裔人口在不斷增長。下城這裏的亞裔人口每年增長大約百分之十四。他們也在變老。而且,很多也患疾病了。所以我想,我們需要正視這些問題。</p>
<p>問:那麽,在此之前,是不是有很多民間組織在做這些拓廣服務的工作?</p>
<p>FOO:確實沒有人做這些。我想亞裔健康中心是第一個試圖用---,把大家組織起來處理這些問題的。我很高興---例如,我剛提到已經建立了肝臟中心。於是,馬上有很多乙肝,肝硬化,肝細胞瘤患者到那裏。但在這個階段之前,很多社區民衆在做這些事情,照顧病人,反映情況。在不久之前,我想,我們舉行了一次地方會議---這是由白宮發起的---去不同的地方談論健康問題。下城醫院,美籍華人醫學協會,以及加利福尼亞相應的組織---那裏有一家華人醫院---要做這項研究,他們調查了一些老年人,搜集所有的資訊。我們大家都去到會議廳談論這個問題。我不知道是否是因爲這件事引起的,但我想這至少有幫助。因爲大家都有興趣,能夠在一起努力,解決這個問題。</p>
<p>問:9/11後的問題如何?因爲我知道很多人抱怨或擔心下城空氣中有毒素,而且針對下城社區設立了專門的醫療委員會。他們有沒有過問過唐人街社區?你對後9/11時期的問題感想如何?</p>
<p>
FOO:9/11是個非常有創傷力的經歷。我自己深有體會,因爲我們的醫院就在Ground Zero,儘管沒有人談起過這些。因爲我們就在那裏,那裏沒有電,沒有電話,但我們仍在那裏工作,就是憑著員工的這種精神,他們盡力了。我們實際上是用手提電話聯繫。而且我們有一台應急發電機。甚至在那個艱難時刻,我們也盡力幫助社區,提供飲水,照料醫院老年人中心的病人。而且,因爲封了路,病人到我們這裏來更不方便,於是我們準備了一輛車接送社區裏的病人。因此,幫助還是比較及時的,但我想在那之後這個地區的經濟遭受了重大損失。這會影響到有醫療保險的病人。因爲他們失去了工作,沒有事情做。關於他們談到的對肺部影響的問題,我想紐約大學派了一個小組來這裏,我想他們對接觸到毒素的人做了登記,想看一下會有什么後遺症。我是神經學醫生,不是肺病專家,對這方面瞭解不多。但我想他們---有人看這些。我不知道這是否足夠。但這確實需要花費很多精力和經費來做。我不知道現在進展如何。但幾年之後可能會有結果,這些接觸是否會對我們的肺有更多的影響。但我想主要是經濟上的損失,因爲我們失去了很多病人。由於失業,他們也失去了保險。他們沒錢看病。所以,這會是一個問題。</p>
<p>問:有沒有什麽方面做出一些努力來改善這種狀況,在經濟損失和醫療保險方面?</p>
<p>FOO:我想在工作上我們大家都想得到幫助。比如,我在下城上班,在工作上我跟他們的關係很密切。因爲這個問題,病人不能來這裏看病。因爲來的人更少,我們幫不了他們。於是,我們想從聯邦政府和慈善機構那裏獲得一些幫助,解決醫院的經費問題。使我們有能力服務社區。我們在尋求幫助。我們---我們看到---很多人提供幫助,我們需要更多的幫助。</p>
<p>問:我知道你是搞神經學的,但我想你能不能從整體上談一下9/11對唐人街的影響,籠統地講或者在醫療需要方面?</p>
<p>FOO:我們有Charles Wang。理論上,他們會幫助任何需要幫助的人。不管你是否有錢,是否有保險,他們都會幫你的。但問題是因爲經濟在走下坡路,<br>
病人是否還有時間關心自己的健康問題。我剛才提到過,因爲“當你在急診室裏看到他們的時候,他們已經病得不輕了,否則他們不會來這裏的。”因此,你必須---因爲他們要維持生活---他們沒時間看醫生。你可以去唐人街健康診所或者下城醫院,如果他們來尋求幫助,我們應該幫他們。我們確實鼓勵他們來。但問題是他們能不能來,你知道,因爲---他們必須要照顧到另外一個方面。因此,我想我們這裏需要很多幫助。我們必須要重振唐人街經濟。</p>
<p>問:很多報告關注是否石棉對此有影響,但通過你我們得知更多的是機構設置的問題,是否有渠道幫助他們。</p>
<p>FOO:是的。我想如果他們能來這裏,我們會給他們更多的幫助的。而不是說有沒有哮喘或其他病的增加。我想,是的,他們受到了影響。我想強調的另外一件事就是一些機構想要做一些調查[手提電話響],看能否對這些後果做些研究。如果對我們有影響的話,看能否找到更好的治療方式。</p>
<p>問:你對此有什麽期望,比如,希望在將來看到一些尚未提出的醫學問題會得到解決。</p>
<p>FOO:你不只是講9/11,是不是?好的。我們有我們自己的事情。比如,鼻咽癌。患病的都是中國人或亞洲人,而不是其他種族的。與這相關的有很多事情。中風問題,我們爲什么有這麽人患腦溢血?是因爲他們患有高血壓而沒有得到醫治,還是說是遺傳基因造成的?這些健康上的問題,有一點變化就會造成風險係數的改變。還有公共醫療健康的問題,我們要向公衆多做宣傳教育,幫助他們。肝細胞瘤,乙肝,我剛才提到,“如果你看到大的肝臟,一定是亞洲人,通常是一個腫瘤。”如果是其他種族,可能是肝臟大,或者是脂肪多。但你看到中國人肝大就不是這個原因。在我上醫學院的時候,別人跟我講---我在臺灣學的醫---“如果你看到中國病人肝大,他一定是患了肝細胞瘤,不會是其他的。”我們都知道這些。像TB之類的傳染病,這些移民可能是肺部受到傳染,如果不及時醫治,他們老了之後就會有問題。所有這些問題都有待於進一步的調查和研究。<br>
現在,[傳呼機響]傳統上人們認爲中國人是典型患病少的少數裔族。我們也總是認爲我們身體好,我們的膽固醇低,但是你沒有看到統計,實際上我們的膽固醇是很高的。也許是因爲我們在這裏吃西餐,但這總是一個問題。並不是說,你人瘦,就不會有膽固醇高的問題。我們有很多人患骨質疏鬆症,盆骨或其他部位骨折。這或許是因爲遺傳基因,或者是因爲環境,我們吃的食物,要不就是我們鍛煉的不夠。因此,我們還是有很多問題的。現在,劉博士[CAIPA主席]感興趣的問題之一就是我們甚至還沒有我們自己的資料。骨質疏鬆症的資料只是對西方人的統計,而不是亞洲人的資料。我們應該解決這個問題,做些統計。我們建立的這個亞洲人健康中心就是要鼓勵人們申請經費,做研究,調查所有這些問題。我想在今後幾年裏,我們應該專注亞洲人的健康問題,來幫助自己,讓更多的人對這方面感興趣。</p>
<p>問:這些都是你認爲只有中國人或者華人社區才存在的問題。你能否講的更具體一點,你主要看哪些背景,或哪個年齡段的病人?</p>
<p>FOO:是我自己嗎?</p>
<p>問:是的。</p>
<p>FOO:我看很多病人---我是成年人神經學家---所以我主要看成年病人。因爲神經學的特點,我們看很多中風的老年人,或帕金森病患者。最終,我服務的病人會是老年人。我同時也看很多年輕人,很多偏頭痛患者,很多患背痛的患者,[傳呼機響]類似的一些病症。</p>
<p>問:從這個角度上來看,我想知道你在下城執業的過程中你的病人的組成是否有變化,在移民的人口上或經濟背景方面…</p>
<p>FOO:隨著近期醫療保險的調整,新出來的HMO,在我能看的病和在哪里看這兩個方面會有很大變化。我以前在醫院裏看了很多中風患者,現在仍然是這樣。但是,我們醫院現在沒有這麽多病人了,因爲我們都讓他們儘早出院。<br>
因此,在醫院看病沒有那麽---我們更多時候是出診。當然,這取決於你在哪里工作。我有兩種病人。一種是年輕的,工作階層,覺得有很大壓力或者患偏頭痛,以及背痛。那麽,這是一部分病人。但對於老年病人,他們很多患有中風,帕金森病患者,和其他一些慢性病。</p>
<p>問:這些人看病主要是用HMO或其他---?</p>
<p>FOO:是的,HMO或Medicaid,只是老年病人。</p>
<p>問:我想再談回9/11的問題,你能否再講一下醫院裏發生的事情,以及9/11之後發生的事情。</p>
<p>FOO:如果你9/11當天在那裏,你會非常吃驚看到那些員工的奉獻精神。在事發的時候,我在紐約大學。我正在開會。出來之後看到世貿中心在冒煙。我立即想我要過來。於是,我去到車庫把車開了出來,我在紐約大學兜了三圈,但過不來,因爲道路都被封了。我是說,警察很快就把路封了。我不知道該怎麽辦。我想很多人也不知道該怎樣。但我---我打電話給在哥倫比亞大學的女兒,她說,‘你爲什么不叫警察?’於是,我就想問一下警察。我說,‘我必須要去下城,因爲我在那裏工作。’沒有問題,他們立即讓我過去了。但當我到了的時候已經太晚了,因爲兩座姊妹樓都已經倒了。在那一刹那,我想,急診室裏會有四百多個身上覆滿塵土的病人,這些醫院會照料好的。在我到的時候已經沒有人在等了,大家都在外面等救護車。我們看到救護車進來,又開走,但沒有病人。我們看到進來的大多數是受了傷的工人,消防隊員和警察,十分悲慘。但是,我可以告訴你,每個人都在盡力幫忙,除了幫病人以外,沒有人講其他的事情。醫院蓋滿了塵土,沒有電,電話線也斷了,但大家都在那裏等著幫助別人。情景十分感人。</p>
<p>問:然後呢?</p>
<p>
FOO:在那之後,我想在那之後,我們大家的確十分努力工作,我們確實有很多不便,因爲電話打不通,又沒有電,很難在那裏工作。但每個人士氣都很高,互相幫助,幫助每一個人。我們去附近的地方提供幫助。我想那個時候Logan醫生要讓醫生和護士去附近的老年人家裏,但我們去不了。我們給他們帶去水,想照料他們。我覺得這樣非常好。我們就僅有的資源盡力做更多的事情。在那之後,又過了很長時間才恢復通電。</p>
<p>問:持續了有多久?</p>
<p>FOO:我實在不記得。這是很久之前的事了。但我記得等了很長一段時間。沒有人說,比如,什麽時候發工資,是否生病了,或者有沒有加班費,類似的事情---他們就這樣做了。這樣很好。你看到很多好心人。對此你很開心。在那之後,我們確實有很多不便,因爲有很多路障。病人不能夠到醫院裏來,因爲他們不得不穿過所有這些路障---有一些甚至現在還在那裏。病人不能到醫院來,這樣我們就會有問題,因爲他們不能夠過來找我們。但我想現在是沒有這個問題了。</p>
<p>問:多久之後才又大致恢復正常?</p>
<p>FOO:醫院裏?</p>
<p>問:是的。</p>
<p>FOO:啊---</p>
<p>[第一盤第一面結束;第一盤第二面開始]</p>
<p>FOO:啊,是過了一段時間,我想直到現在還未完全恢復正常,因爲這影響了我們的---周圍地區的聲譽,直到現在。Chatham廣場現在還在封著,因此從那裏很難走那條路線到醫院。而且,你也不能走FBI,那裏有個學校和幾幢樓。因此,我們設立了免費接送唐人街<br>
病人的服務。我們把他們接到醫院來。但這仍然不是很方便。但無論如何,我們都想方設法解決。我們盡了全力。</p>
<p>問:那個時候唐人街民衆的感覺如何?</p>
<p>FOO:對於9/11?</p>
<p>問:9/11之後。</p>
<p>FOO:很糟糕。那個時候,我記得---我從來沒有看到Mott街上的店鋪關門的。我想在9/11之後不久,我看到Mott街上兩三家餐館關門了,這以前從來沒有發生過。所有的衣廠---我聽說這地區大概有一百多家衣廠關閉,因爲你不能把這裏生産出的産品運出去。不通車,你出不去。再加上他們已經快不行了,這樣一下子就關閉了。我聽說現在,你要想在唐人街租寫字樓很容易,因爲衣廠空出來很多地方。所以,很容易租到,因此也使得租金下降。但是,如果你瞭解唐人街,Chatham廣場那些關了的地方正是旅遊汽車和公共汽車站。遊客要從Mott街車站開始,圍繞唐人街觀光。那裏沒有車,就不會有交通。因此,這裏很安靜。現在是好了一些,但那個時候,9/11期間,即使你想去餐館消費,你進去之後也只是你一個人在餐館裏面。因此,這嚴重地影響了經濟。這是肯定的。</p>
<p>問:從什麽時候開始有其他的醫療機構對尤其是唐人街的醫療需要作出反應?你提過Charles Wang,但唐人街還有聯邦政府和州政府的支援。他們有沒有幫助唐人街?</p>
<p>FOO:是的。我想所有事情都是地方做的,是本地社區做的。Charles Wang診所,下城醫院,和一些醫生,他們義務照顧一些特定的病人。實際上,當飛機撞上的時候,很多中國醫生都在下城。一下子,社區裏的人主動關掉他們的店鋪和辦公室,來到醫院義務服務。很遺憾事件發生的時候,我們的醫生比病人還要多,但確實有很多人來幫忙。有的時候---我想<br>
在那個時候,事件發生的時候,大多數辦公室都關門了。不是說醫生不想過來,而是他們過不來。你來不了。病人也沒有辦法就醫。我在醫院裏待了一段時間,因此醫院一直開門。需要醫療照顧的人都能進來。因此我想都是當地的努力。當然,這不像SARS,用不著動員整個國家。倒沒有這個必要。大概都是當地的努力。很多人都很忙,在那段時間都不知道發生了什麽事情。我想倒沒有什麽特殊的需要。那時,我兒子還是醫科院學生。他們去了---一個在西邊的---政府實際上在Chelsea一帶建了一個手術室,那裏有很多手術臺。但是,那裏並沒有用上。一切都已經安排好了。我想政府對這個災難事件的反應十分迅速。但實在是沒有病人需要他們的幫助。</p>
<p>問:不是那些方面的幫助。</p>
<p>FOO:不是那些方面的幫助,沒錯。</p>
<p>問:你認爲這種影響將是長期的還是---</p>
<p>FOO:是的。將來會發生什么事情。但我想無論發生什麽樣的緊急事件,幾秒之內就會發生。在那之後不會有任何幫助的。</p>
<p>問:你提到對SARS的恐懼。你對那個的經歷怎樣?有什麽不同?</p>
<p>FOO:是個不好的經歷。我想聽起來要更加糟糕。當時,儘管我們知道唐人街還沒有SARS,別人看到我們說,‘你是中國人,你一定有SARS。’因此那時沒有人到唐人街餐館來吃飯。如果你看到有人在這裏,那一定是中國人,因爲我們要支援社區,我們要來這裏。沒有任何事情---人們擔心染上SARS,認爲會在這裏受到傳染。但很幸運,我們這裏沒有SARS,但不幸的是這嚴重影響了這裏的經濟。</p>
<p>問:這要持續多長時間?<br>
FOO:我很難講確切的時間,但的確持續了很長一段時間。是這樣的。我想現在經濟形式有了好轉,但仍有很多的事情要做。其他的我就不知道了。我是說,我只是醫生,我不懂經濟,但我想你可以做很多事情來刺激經濟的發展。</p>
<p>問:我想再換個話題---因爲你提到你的兒子在讀醫學院,我想再瞭解一下你個人的情況,因爲你是在臺灣國立大學接受的訓練---</p>
<p>FOO:是的。</p>
<p>問:你是在臺灣長大的嗎?</p>
<p>FOO:不是。</p>
<p>問:在哪里---</p>
<p>FOO:我在馬來西亞出生。在汶萊長大,去臺灣讀的醫學院。我想---我的家人分散到各地,一些在澳大利亞,有一個在加拿大。那時我父親從中國去了馬來西亞,因爲躲避戰亂。於是,我們就到了那裏。</p>
<p>問:你是什麽時候來美國的?</p>
<p>FOO:我想實際情況是在馬來西亞和汶萊生活很困難,因爲你擔心得不到身份。儘管我工作非常努力,對人也很友善---我在很多地方都有很多朋友。我在臺灣的時候,實際上,我有一些朋友,對中藥非常感興趣。那是在臺灣國立大學。在我畢業的時候,我們的CR,即主任,把Harrison整本內科教科書翻譯成中文。希望我們能夠用中文學習,這樣也容易和我們的病人交流。這是我們做的第一件事。在此之後,我們又出版了一個叫作今日醫藥的刊物,主要針對使用中文的執業醫生,使他們熟悉中文的醫藥術語。還有,我們面向公衆出了一本雜誌,叫作健康世界,<br>
現在還有。我很自豪能夠做這些。而且,那時,美國是你學醫深造的地方。於是我父親建議,‘你爲什麽不去美國,多學習一些知識?’這樣,我就到這裏來了。很幸運,我去了Bridgeport的St. Vicent’s,之後又去了紐約大學學神經學。畢業之後,因爲我在Bellevue的經驗,知道亞洲人如果病得不重不會去醫院的。我想,也許我應該來唐人街,更加接近他們。這樣就開始了這些事情。</p>
<p>問:你翻譯醫學教科書是不是因爲中文的教育系統不是很規範?</p>
<p>FOO:在那個時候,美國的醫療技術是最發達的,因此所有先進、最新的知識都來自美國。中國人接觸不到這些。因此,如果我們能把它們翻譯成中文,我們能使更多的醫生和病人看到這些材料,是一件好事情,於是就這樣做了。那時十分有趣的一件事情就是心理學,有一個精神科醫生,Tseng博士,在夏威夷學的醫。他回來之後創辦了很多事情---對我們的影響很大。他翻譯了很多精神病學的書籍,包括Freud的夢的解析---我和我的一些朋友也有參與。我們想把那些知識帶到中國。說到這裏,其實唐人街地區在精神健康方面確實有很多問題。我不知道你是否知道這裏老年婦女的自殺率非常高。因爲大多數移民到這裏之後受到不同文化的衝擊,他們忙於工作,照顧家人。他們的孩子儘管很出色,但他們不一定和他們的父母有同樣的文化或想法。因此,那些移民年紀大了之後,退休之後,就變得很迷茫,不知道要去哪里。經常看到一些中國病人,老年病人,患憂鬱症。他們非常憂鬱,因爲他們想是他們死的時候了。沒有別的什么事情要做。因此,Chung博士,Henry Chung,一名精神科醫生,想申請經費,致力於這裏精神病方面的工作。我認爲這非常好。同時,剛成立的亞裔健康中心的部分職責也包括這些方面。在二十幾年前,我們就需要做一些事情,現在是時候了。</p>
<p>問:實際上你剛才提到過這個,只不過是用另外一種方式,即使西方醫學更加符合中國文化的需要。你是否覺得心理學很難對中國人適用,因爲它屬於純西方的文化?</p>
<p>
FOO:我想你必須要考慮文化因素。中國和西方非常不同。我甚至不理解---中國名著之一叫作“紅樓夢”。如果你讀過,你會知道它主要是講中國的文化結構如何,家庭結構如何,而我們每個人作爲個體是不重要的---家庭是重要的。而你重要是因爲你在家庭裏重要。所以,賈寶玉,裏面的男主角,只不過是個普通人,但因爲他將繼承---他要成爲家庭的代言人,所以大家都要對他示好,並且使他成爲很重要的人物。如果你失去那個身份,你將不會處在那個地位。所以,在中國文化中,我們大家都是整個家庭的一部分,而不是獨立的。這種思想對於受西方教育的人來講是很難接受的。這裏的中國第二代移民吸收了美國的文化。這有很大的不同,我想甚至在中國,由於世界變得越來越小,很多事情都變了。因此,你需要---你確實要考慮這些因素。看精神科醫生對一個中國人來講是很困難的,因爲這是一種恥辱---你“瘋了”,所以你才要去看病。但這不是事實。我是說,有一些事情你不能講,而整個價值觀念在改變,因此我認爲我們要努力幫助自己人。</p>
<p>問:也許這是另外一個需要。</p>
<p>FOO:是的。這是最重要的需要,我想。健康,精神健康問題,是每個人都忽視的最重要的需要。很少看西方精神科醫生的另外一個原因是文化差異。人們的表達方式完全不同。也許有一些你想說的東西你不能用英語表達,那他就是幫不到你。</p>
<p>問:是不是有什麽大規模的中國心理學運動或精神病學團體?</p>
<p>FOO:我想我們剛剛開始搞。當然有---,現在美國有很多亞裔人。有更多的亞裔人學醫,他們中的一些將成爲心理學家。</p>
<p>問:再稍微打斷一下---</p>
<p>FOO:好的。</p>
<p>
問:你剛才講過,在臺灣之後,你又來到美國,在那個時候你開始對這裏的華人社區感興趣。你在唐人街住嗎?</p>
<p>FOO:我不住在唐人街。我住在新澤西。我開始的時候想---剛開始的時候,我還是住院醫生。我住在Water Tower---那裏有一座樓。後來,我沒錢住那裏了。我想我來這裏的時候和其他移民一樣,兩手空空。因此,如果我用我的全部薪水交房租,我的孩子會不高興的,他們會非常失望的。於是,我決定搬到Elmhurst住,我的朋友也幫了我一些忙。當我的孩子長大了一些的時候,我想,他們想更加融入美國文化和社會,因此我能做的唯一的事情就是去郊區,在那裏他們會很高興有很多---住很多房間。於是,我又搬到新澤西,Jersey北部,在那裏把他們帶大。</p>
<p>問:但儘管如此,很明顯在職業上以及你本人方面,你仍然和華人以及華人社區有密切的聯繫。</p>
<p>FOO:是的。<br>
問:在Jersey有華人社區嗎?</p>
<p>FOO:沒有。</p>
<p>問:你住的附近?<br>
FOO:我住的地方是一個非常小的社區,但我主要的活動都是在唐人街和Elmhurst。在我的孩子很小的時候,我送他們去中文學校。如果你家裏是中國家庭,你知道這有多麽困難。我帶他們---,我星期六和星期日休息,帶他們去學校。他們會恨你一輩子。我有四個孩子。我設法讓老大、老二上中文學校,後兩個我就放棄了。我放棄了。因爲這的確是一種折磨。他們講英文,他們不在學校講中文,他們的朋友講英文。你讓他們學習一種非常難的語言。他們就是不學。但幸運的是,世界將變得越來越小。當他們上大學的時候,他們會意識到---有一種語言他們不得不學。他們必須要學。因此,他們在大學裏主修中文。因爲這個原因,我建了個網站,心想我懂得一些,<br>
也許能夠幫助他們學中文,並且讓他們瞭解中國文化。而且,不僅僅是他們。因爲我不知道這會對他們有多大影響。於是,我建了個網站,這樣任何人,包括我的同事,能夠看到,任何人如果對中文感興趣都可以學習。</p>
<p>問:你的孩子都在學中文嗎?</p>
<p>FOO:是的。他們在大學主修中文。我很驚奇,因爲我是按照傳統方式學的中文---平時你講中文,在學校你讀中文,我們已經習慣這種學習方式。因此,我們不用“拼音”學。但有一天我發現我的孩子能講中文,能讀中文,找這些字。我以爲他們不能做這些。於是我就查---,我上網,鍵入“pinyin,”他們就能找到中文字。而且,他們能寫下來。這就促使我自己也學這個。因此,通過那個工具[“pinyin”],我想,也許我能告訴他們所有我想告訴他們的事情,而這些在他們小的時候我還做不到。因此我在試著做這些。我非常感興趣的事情之一就是在繪畫中教他們學中文。當你看很多中國繪畫的時候,你非常喜歡,看起來也美,但字,一些書法就很難看懂。你不知道是什么。看起來漂亮,但你不知道是什么。知道那些內容很重要。因爲那是繪畫的一部分。我跟他們講的一個例子,你可以看我的網站,就是蓮。你可能很奇怪爲什么中國繪畫中有這麽多蓮。有一篇論文專門講蓮,講它所代表的很多涵義。我們這樣做是有很多象徵意義的。我的網站上有這些書法,有它們的出處,我把整篇文章都貼在那裏。但有幾樣非常重要的事情是他們要學的。只是幾個字。這不僅幫助他們擴大辭彙量,但同時也可以瞭解中國文化。那麽,爲什么是蓮呢?蓮長在很肮髒,很泥濘的池塘裏。但蓮花是非常美麗的。花的味道也很香。它象徵著君子。你用不著出生在富庶的家庭裏。倒不是說這樣不好。但你可以來自任何普通的環境,甚至是泥裏。但你可以是一位君子,一個很好的人,只要你自己懂得如何照料自己。這就是它的涵義。</p>
<p>問:很抱歉。我想再談回唐人街。作爲來這裏的移民,你能否談一下你眼中的唐人街有哪些變化?</p>
<p>
FOO:中國移民一共有兩大類---我是幸運的一類,因爲我有自己的專業。在朝鮮戰爭時期,醫生很緊缺。這些都幫我建立我的---啊,不好意思,是越南戰爭---這一切都會幫助醫生職業,幫助我在這裏建立一個家庭。因此,我不必去幹餐館做服務員,或做其他事情。我來這裏之後很快就找到了工作。我所要做的事情就是提高我的英文,接受醫學訓練。但經濟上我還過得去。那些不得不改變他們的專業的人就不同了,他們不能從事在自己國家從事的事業,由零開始。沒有語言能力,沒有地方住,只好擠在唐人街。你能做的唯一一件事情便是去衣廠,或者去餐館做服務員。你不能做其他的工作。因此,一個教授來這裏做這些是很悲慘的。實際上,我的一個老師來到這裏,待了兩個星期之後又回去了,因爲他受不了這些。我是說,這很貶低人,一個學校的校長來這裏端盤子。因此,這是很不同的事情。我很幸運屬於第一類。但對於很多移民,這是很大的挑戰。不光是有這些變化,你也沒有錢,你還要養活孩子,你不得不端盤子。很多時候,他們不得不打兩份或三份工來維持生活。因此,他們沒有太照顧自己,健康上或者教育上。因此,這很悲傷。我想這是很多移民的情況。不僅是中國人,而且---</p>
<p>問:你認爲這仍然是唐人街的情況嗎?</p>
<p>FOO:是的。我是說,那些來到這裏的人,除非他們有自己的專業,他們上學,讀書,不得不做同樣的努力。這就是爲什麽衣廠、餐館對他們非常重要。如果經濟不好,我想那些移民在這裏的生活也不好過。如果你去唐人街,看他們住的地方,你將很吃驚---地方會有多么小,他們是怎樣擠在一個小地方,以及他們不得不打廉價工度日。</p>
<p>問:在很長一段時間,唐人街有不同的移民潮,似乎總是在努力保持社區的身份,因爲一旦移民,或者是他們的第二代,有一點兒成功,他們就會搬走的。你認爲這麽多年來這些有沒有改變?現在人們是不是更經常回來投資做一些社區服務,或在唐人街投資?</p>
<p>FOO:我想在中國長大的人一定要出去,對不對?不可能大家都擠在這裏。尤其是做一些局限在當地的活動。這樣很多人都能夠幫上忙。<br>
但我希望更多的成功的華人能夠回來幫助社區。比如,我們爲醫院籌款,因爲我們百分之六十五的病人是華人。讓那些成功的華人來到唐人街,捐款支援社區建設是很困難的。他們更願意把錢捐給哥倫比亞,給哈佛大學,因爲這樣做更令人敬佩。他們也許沒有想到要幫助一家本地的社區醫院。但我希望他們能改變主意,更多地幫助我們,這樣他們能夠幫到這裏更多的人。</p>
<p>問:醫院能不能向州或聯邦政府申請,還是說一切都要靠慈善機構?</p>
<p>FOO:是的,當然,你知道只有聯邦才能幫助我們。不知你知不知道,在最近幾年,我們甚至有香港---香港明星來這裏幫助這個華人社區健康基金會籌款。我們每兩年舉行一次演唱會,我們得到很多社區的幫助。確實有很多人在幫助我們,但我們需要更多人幫助。</p>
<p>問:你是否覺得你們醫院這樣的醫療機構在社區裏的地位沒有受到足夠的重視?</p>
<p>FOO:不是的,我想人們已意識到它的重要性。問題是人們是不是會說,‘好的,我要提供更多的幫助---因爲你不能把別人給你的錢花在---9/11事件的發生,醫院是---我們的資金比較少。我給你舉一個例子。比如說,如果他們的預算是一百萬美元。如果你的HMO占百分之十,這樣你就失去一千萬美元。其他仍是一樣。如果你病人人數減少,那你的成本就增加了。我們僅是談這些小錢。因此,我們必須要做更多的努力使預支平衡。但是,你知道,我們確實需要人來幫助做這些事情。我們需要人來做---,設備,以及其他事情,這樣我們才能更好地爲社區服務。我不是說我們現在沒有,只不過我們需要更多。</p>
<p>問:那麽說,經濟的下滑使大家都受到了影響。</p>
<p>FOO:是的。</p>
<p>
問:你希望唐人街的將來會是什么樣子?你覺得唐人街在未來會怎樣?</p>
<p>FOO:中國人民非常勤勞。他們工作十分努力。他們很少抱怨。我希望唐人街會繁榮起來。我覺得除非經濟好轉起來,否則會很艱難。我們依賴衣廠,餐館,遊客到這裏來。在9/11之後我們有很多問題。因此,我們現在很難做事情。新移民來了之後,他們也許會關注這個地區,因爲語言上的問題。因此,我們需要更多人來做這些,爲他們提供幫助。還有,我剛才提到過的亞裔健康中心,它的建立會讓我們爲社區做更多的事情。這會使他們幫助我們找到一些問題,滿足他們醫療健康的需要。我想做的另外一件事情就是讓更多的人對中國文化感興趣。我認爲這十分重要。如果你向別人介紹,使別人對你的文化感興趣,瞭解你的文化,這是交流的一種方式。這就是爲什麽我投入一些精力來“學習中文”。倒不是說中文比其他語言高級,只不過是因爲中國文化持續了五千年。我們可以做很多事情來幫助其他人更好地瞭解中國文化。因此,語言會是一個問題。但你可以使這個過程變得更加容易一些,還有電腦,以及一些新的軟體,這會使其他人更加瞭解我們。而這對美國也有好處,因爲我們是一個多文化社會,大家在一起生活,我們彼此瞭解,這樣我們才能把這個國家建設得更好。</p>
<p>問:謝謝你。</p>
<p>FOO:不客氣。</p>
<p>問:在結束之前,你還有什麽要補充的嗎?</p>
<p>FOO:我想在博物館工作。[笑聲] 我在想---付出更多給博物館就是給中國文化做更多的貢獻。我想到的一件事情就是中國人的姓。我父親很有意思,給我二十多部在不同時代出版的Foo家家譜。從那裏我可以追溯我的祖先---直系祖先---一直到第一個,甚至比這還要早。因此,我想,追溯祖先十分重要。你怎樣才能知道這些。我們有家族詩。你知道大多數中國人<br>
的名字有三個字,對不對?我們沒最後的名,我們只有姓。姓是第一個字。最後一個實際上是你的名字。中間是這一代人的名字。你從家族詩中起這一代人的名字。因此,如果我們有相同的姓,我告訴你我中間的名,你會知道我是家裏的第幾代。現在可能已經沒有這些了,但我想人們瞭解這些會有好處,會知道中國文化是怎樣來的。所以,我會跟博物館講這些的。</p>
<p>問:因此,這裏有更多的文化歷史---正如你所講,唐人街不僅僅是一個旅遊景點。</p>
<p>FOO:是的。很有必要讓人們瞭解中國的文化,結構是怎樣的。這還只是名字。實際上還有很多經典的東西,看我的網站就知道了。我還在搞那些材料。</p>
<p>問:好的。非常感謝你。</p>
<p>FOO:好的。很高興接受你的採訪。有任何需要請儘管跟我講。</p>
<p>[採訪結束]</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dr. Sun Hoo Foo
911DA Item
Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item.
Status
The process status of this item.
approved
Consent
Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item.
unknown
Posting
Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item.
unknown
Copyright
Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item.
unknown
Source
The source of this item.
transcription
Media Type
The media type of this item.
interview
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Jeanne Jackson
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Teri Chan
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-07-12
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
employment agency
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
My name is Teri Chan and I am here to interview Jeanne Jackson, and
the location is 126 East Broadway, Chinatown, New York. Can you state
your full name?</p>
<p>
Jackson: Yes. It’s Jeanne
Lee Jackson.</p>
<p>
Q: I’m going to ask you a
very unusual question. Why is your last name Jackson?</p>
<p>
Jackson: Because my husband, he
is from Shanghai, when he came to America and he became a citizen, he
was so happy to be an American citizen, so instead of Jackson Lee, he
just switched it to Lee Jackson. They asked him if he wanted to
change his name, because back in the sixties, they used to interview
for, you know for citizenship one by one, one person at a time. It
wasn’t in like a big group like they do now.</p>
<p>
Q: Did he ever request or
petition to switch his last name?</p>
<p>
Jackson: No, he makes a joke, he
says, “My great-grandfather was Andrew Jackson.” [laughs]
But when I was first married, you know, people in a department store,
they were wondering was my husband English, or would be black.
There’s no Chinese person named Jackson. [laughs] And my kids,
you know, they get teased, Jackson five, or Jackson six.</p>
<p>
Q: Do any of your children want
to switch their last name?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: No.
</p>
<p>
Q: They’re happy with it.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yeah, right.</p>
<p>
<br>Q: How did
you guys met?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: We met through the newspaper [laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: Tell---</p>
<p>
JACKSON: I used to belong to the Ging Hawk Club, which was a club
for the Asian ladies, and we were at Central Park, going ice-skating,
and then we picked up the local newspaper from Chinatown, and it said
“Free Chinese Lessons.” And since I’m an
American-born Chinese, I always wanted to take Chinese lessons. So we
said we’d enquire, and that’s how we met. He was giving
lessons.
</p>
<p>
Q: What was---</p>
<p>
JACKSON: ---And I was his student.</p>
<p>
Q: When was this?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Back in 1960.
</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, let me backtrack a little bit. When were you born, where
were you born?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: I was born in February, 1940, in New York City, Manhattan.</p>
<p>
Q: Where did you grow up?<br><br>JACKSON: And I grew up in Green
Point, Brooklyn. My mother had a hand laundry, and went to the
elementary school, PS 34, Junior High School 126, and then on to Long
Island City High School.
</p>
<p>
Q: What was it
like growing up in Fort Greene?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Green Point.</p>
<p>
Q: Green Point, I’m sorry.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Okay, well, at that time it was sort of the end of World
War II, and I was the only Asian child in that elementary school and
so I faced a lot of discrimination. Also I was kind of naughty. The
teacher used to put me under her desk. But the kids used to say,
“Chinky-Chinky Chinaman,” and made all kinds of funny
names at me. And I always tried to fight back, because I was very
proud to be Chinese-American. And I guess because of the war, World
War II, that had an effect on people’s thinking of Asian
people.
</p>
<p>
Q: How did you fight back?
</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, in Junior High School, they used to want to fight
with me after school, and because I was always very, very, brave. I
always challenged them. I said, Okay, we’ll fight, and we would
fight after school in some place, you know, groups of kids would come
and watch us fight.</p>
<p>
Q: Was it boys, or girls, or----</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Boys and girls.
</p>
<p>
Q: Different ethnic groups?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Mostly Polish. Polish and Irish.</p>
<p>
Q: And did that continue to happen, after high school?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: When
in high school, no. In high school it wasn’t so bad because
high school was in the Long Island City high school. And it was, you
know, the discrimination was a little better, because I graduated
back in 1957. I only went three years, ’54 to ’57 in
high school. I had a lot of fun in high school, too. I stayed with
mostly some of Asians---there was very few Asian people, too, about
three or four. And we used to go bowling, play basketball.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you integrate with any kids from Chinatown?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: No, no, because we lived in Green Point, Brooklyn, and you
had to take the G subway, it was about maybe 45 minutes.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you help out with your parents in the laundry?<br><br>JACKSON:
Yes. I had to, in the morning, my parents had this laundry where you
had to starch the clothes and fill the laundry bags, and I had to set
up the starching area, and then my mother used to hand roll the
collars, and I used to put the dirty clothes into bags for the wet
wash company to pick up. The best part of the laundry business was
giving the customers their packages and collecting the money. And
then I said to myself, “Oh, I hope I never marry a laundry man.
The work is so hard.”</p>
<p>
Q: How old were you when you started helping your parents?<br><br>JACKSON:
I think I was about ten, eleven.</p>
<p>
Q: And how long did that last?<br><br>JACKSON: Oh, for a couple of
years.</p>
<p>
Q: And where did your parents come from? Were they born here?<br><br>
JACKSON: No. My mother was born in Massachusetts,
but my father came from Guangzhou, China.
</p>
<p>
Q: Let’s talk about your father’s family first.
</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: When did he come to the United States? Is his family here now,
or----</p>
<p>
JACKSON: My father came, I believe, when he was in his early 20s. He
was a paper son, he had to buy paper to come. And then, he worked.
He always says he had to pay three thousand dollars. He owed three
thousand dollars to come to America and he had to pay back the money.
And then later on, he went back to China because, I think, he wanted
to get married. And he was so lucky that someone introduced my mother
to him. My mother went back to China when she was very young, because
her mother died, my grandmother, and her father shipped all the three
(young) kids back to China. And so they met. My mother was only
fifteen when she married my father.</p>
<p>
Q: And when did they come back to the United States?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes, back in 1936. At that time, China was already at war
with Japan, and my mother luckily she was an American citizen, so she
was able to come back to America. Whereas a lot of other men, they
couldn’t bring their wives over.</p>
<p>
Q: When she came back, what was the ratio between men and women?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: There were more men than women. And in fact my mother says
it took her three years to learn how to go to Chinatown. We used to
live on 42<sup>nd</sup> Street and 3<sup>rd</sup> Avenue, and it took
her three years to learn how to go to Chinatown, and my father was
afraid that the men would snatch her away, because there was such a
shortage of Asian women</p>
<p>
Q: Your parents speak Chinese or English?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: My parents spoke Chinese. But let’s see, when I was
born, my mother contracted tuberculosis, and she had to be sent to a
sanatorium, and I was sent to an orphanage. At the sanatorium
Upstate, that’s where she learned English. It was very hard for
my father because he had to go visit my mother, and he had to go see
me at the orphanage.</p>
<p>
Q: How long did you stay in the orphanage, and how old were you?<br><br>
</p>
<p>
JACKSON: I was just, I was very young. I think I was only maybe a
couple of months old. And I stayed in the orphanage until my
godmother---she used to take in foster children, and the she became
my godmother. She lived in Brooklyn.</p>
<p>
Q: Was she Chinese?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: She was Chinese, yes. And she took in a lot of foster
children, whose parents were sick, or away.
</p>
<p>
Q: You remember that experience of living with her?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: I was really, very young, but I always loved my godmother.
They were always so nice to me. Nicer than my own parents. [laughs]
My godfather had a restaurant on Nassau Street in Manhattan, and I
remember he had a Model T Ford, and I would go with him to buy
vegetables on Essex Street.
</p>
<p>
Q: And eventually your mother recovered?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes, eventually my mother, yes, and then I came back to
live with my parents.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have brothers and sisters?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes, I have one brother, and I have two younger sisters.
My brother is a physician, he is a psychiatrist, and I have two
younger sisters, one is teaching, and one is working in a supermarket
in California.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have any kids?</p>
<p>JACKSON: Yes, I have four. I have one daughter and three sons.
And I have fourteen grandchildren, right now.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you talk to your children about your experience growing up,
the family history?<br><br>JACKSON: Well, yes, because when we were
growing up we were really very poor. Because my parents had to
support three families, they had to support my dad’s family in
China, my mother had to support her dad, and then take care of us. So
we never had toys or things. I mean, we were lucky we had food on the
table. Even though you grow up poor, you can be poor but you can
still be human. And our parents, they worked so hard for us, we
really love our parents so much. They sacrificed so much for us four
kids.</p>
<p>
Q: Let’s go back where you graduate from college. What did you
do, before you got married?<br><br>JACKSON: I used to work for Chase
Manhattan Bank. I worked there for six years, I became a section
supervisor after I graduated from their school, and then I met
husband. We only met, within three months, we got married. [laughs]
We used to date at Junior’s in downtown Brooklyn, and then my
husband was a printer at that time. He had his own little printing
business, and then we opened up a take-out (restaurant) and I didn’t
know a thing about Chinese restaurants. So I had to learn everything,
how to make wontons, how
to make spare ribs. We opened a little restaurant (take out
place) in Brooklyn, and since we only had four hundred dollars, at
that time, back in ’61, we were so lucky, we did everything
ourselves. We built a walk-in refrigerator, we put down the floors,
painted the store. And the cooks, they loaned us some money, they
said, “Well, you could pay us later.”<br><br>And so, we
had a little take-out place. And my daughter was born then, and we
used to have a playpen in front of the store. Kids used to come and
play with her, because we used to sell chow mien in the cup for
twenty-five cents, spare ribs and fried rice, fifty cents, for lunch,
and this was at junior high school, Hudde Junior High School, on
Nostrand Avenue and Avenue J.
</p>
<p>
Q: How long did you have the restaurant business for?<br><br>
</p>
<p>
JACKSON: We had the take-out business for about three years, and
then we opened up a restaurant on Avenue P. And by that time, my
second child was coming, and so we had to really stop doing the
restaurant business because it’s hard to get help in
babysitting. And then we went into real estate in Manhattan.</p>
<p>Q: Tell me about the real estate business.
</p>
<p>JACKSON: Well, we bought our first building on East Second
Street, it was a twenty-four family. And there was never a super. I
had to learn how to be a super, a janitor, and used to take a bucket
of water up five flights of stairs (to wash and sweep the hallway).
Besides watching my children, I did that and managed the building.
And then take care of a number two boiler in the basement. So all
these, you learn first hand by doing. A good experience.</p>
<p>
Q: Where were you living at that time? <br><br>JACKSON: Well, from
Brooklyn we moved to East Second Street in Manhattan.</p>
<p>
Q: Was your lifestyle back then, typical of Chinese family, or
untypical?<br><br>JACKSON: Ah, typical of a Chinese family? Well,
because I’m born here, I guess I’m more modern. My
children went to Headstart. I was involved and volunteered (at
Headstart & elementary school), I was a translator for the
parents who were newly immigrants, and so I did a lot of volunteer
work and plus take care of my own children. And I didn’t have
any help, because my parents still worked.</p>
<p>Q: Were you able to communicate with the people, did you feel
culturally connected to those people, the new immigrants?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: I guess they always thought that because I’m born
here, they always say, “You know, you’re chuhsane, you’re
American-born” It’s a little different. I respect
whatever they want to do, and I think they respect me. It’s a
little different.</p>
<p>
Q: What are the differences, and what are the similarities between
you and---</p>
<p>
JACKSON: ---and the ones from China? Well, first of all it’s
the language. The language is a big problem, and then in the rearing
of children. They’re very protective of the children. Whereas
my children, I used to let them go to the Fresh Air Camp, they
couldn’t believe my children were so young, six or seven years
old, and I let them go to camp for two weeks. Because I wanted my
children to be independent, and to learn other people’s
culture, and also to have fun, because you’re living in the
city, we never had money to go on vacation, because we were always
working.</p>
<p>
Q: And do you guys have different ways of disciplining your
children?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, I’m the good guy, and my husband was the bad
guy. So thank God. That’s why I think every child needs a
mother and father, because it’s very hard for one parent---I
think it’s very hard. If it wasn’t for their father, I
don’t know how I would manage.
</p>
<p>
Q: I want to backtrack a little bit. As a woman, I’m very
curious about your experience working with Chase. Were you one of the
few Asian people working, or the few Asian women working, and what
was that like?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes. At Chase Manhattan, this was at the headquarters, the
main office, stock transfer department. There were only three Asians
in this big office building. I supervised five part-timers, and I
enjoyed it very much, supervising, but when I first started as a
typist, it was so boring. And I learned how to smoke. But I used to
do a lot of overtime, because my parents were very old-fashioned, and
I didn’t have time to date, and it was either work, or school,
work, and school, and so I feel, you know, you have to pay your dues,
if you want to get ahead.</p>
<p>Q: Was there any stereotype about you as an Asian woman? Do you
think there was any stereotype about you?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: No, not really. I think they respected me. My godfather
always said, “You know, since you’re Asians, and so few,
you always have to do better, and show that you are conscientious,
really conscientious, and do a good job and then people will see it.
Have to because we want other Asians to be able to come in and get
jobs.”</p>
<p>
Q: Let’s go forward a little bit and talk about your real
estate business. Do you still have the real estate business, and how
much---</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes, when my children were young, I went to school and I
became a salesman first and then a real estate broker, and I also
studied insurance. And my office has been here since 1973. And I also
built my office. It was no walls, no floor, it was really a dump.
This area was very dilapidated, but gradually, since ’73,
business is pretty good, at least the south Florida property, in
Lehigh. And we do management and leasing (of residential and
commercial properties).</p>
<p>
Q: Who are your clients?<br><br>JACKSON: Who---</p>
<p>
Q: Who are your clients, what are their backgrounds?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Since my office is located--- it varies, I have black
people, Jewish people, some Chinese. That’s why I like where my
office is, because it’s a variety. I meet a lot of people, they
come to me for the notary public signing, insurance. It’s very
transit, my area.</p>
<p>
Q: Are the same clients still coming back, or do you have more
Chinese clients now because Chinatown has expanded?<br><br>JACKSON:
Well, since it’s so transit, we used to have a lot of old
clients, but now since there’s a lot of competition, and more
people opened up their own business in Chinatown, and so like now,
because East Broadway is little Fukzhao City, because the people
speak that dialect, and I don’t speak their dialect so I’m
a little handicapped with that. But there’s a lot of
competition in real estate and in insurance. But at least still I’ve
been able to maintain our business, we’ve been here so long,
since 1973.</p>
<p>
Q: How do you keep up with all the competition? Do you have new ways
of doing business?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, we try to give the best service, and since I do
income tax also. So if they have a question, I always try to help
them and I don’t charge them extra, things like that. So our
service is different. Because really our business is (service
oriented) for everybody and everybody does their business
differently. But, in order to survice, anybody can go into business,
but to stay in business, that’s the whole key. A lot of people
want to open a business, and then the next day, or the next two
years, they’re gone.
But we have survived, so we had to be doing something
right.</p>
<p>
Q: You mention they speak a different dialect, Fukanese, and you
obviously don’t---</p>
<p>
JACKSON: I speak Toisanese. But my husband’s lucky, he speaks
three dialects. He speaks Shanghainese, Mandarin, Cantonese, and some
English.</p>
<p>
Q: So how do you overcome the language barrier to serve the new
clients?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: My secretary speaks Mandarin, and my husband hires the
Fukanese help from the employment agency.</p>
<p>
Q: Tell me a little bit about your husband’s employment
agency.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: The employment agency, he has a lot of different sections.
He has about thirty girls working for him. And he does mainly the
restaurant, anything in the restaurant line, and he sends people all
over, from Puerto Rico, all the ways up to Buffalo, and then
Massachusetts, and to Chicago because he has the oldest employment
agency now in Chinatown. And now a lot of the new ones have open, his
competitions, years ago there were only three, now there’s
about fifty, a lot of people here, they worked for him and then they
opened up their own employment agency.</p>
<p>And now, the jobs are sort of scarce, because of 9/11 and
economy.</p>
<p>
Q: Tell me the impact of 9/11 on your business and your husband’s
business.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, we didn’t have phone service for about a month
and a half, and that was difficult, because we had to put signs up,
and we used the cell phone. Verizon gave us cell phones, so we
ordered about thirty cell phones. And business was very quiet, and
Chinatown was like a ghost town the first few days. There was nobody
around, and we still smelled the smoke, because we’re only
about twelve blocks away. It really had a bad
impact on Chinatown, a lot of people lost their
jobs, and business closed up.</p>
<p>
Q: You got any help from any of the 9/11 relief programs?<br><br><br>JACKSON:
No, we didn’t. Well, we tried to, we were going to apply, but
then we saw the paperwork was this high, and they really asked an
awful lot of questions, so we didn’t apply, because there was
too much red tape.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you help any of your clients apply, since you do income tax
and insurance?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: My clients---they went to apply themselves, and when they
came to do the income tax, they didn’t realize that the grants
that they got they had to pay tax on it. So I had one client that got
a grant for her business in Chinatown, and for her house in Brooklyn,
and then when it came to tax time, she didn’t realize she had
to pay about $18,000 was taxable.</p>
<p>
Q: So there was bad side effects?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Right. I think if a lot of people knew they were. I met the
other people and they said that they don’t want to, want the
government to come and check your home, to see if you really bought
that air conditioner, or that air cleaner. They just didn’t
want to be bothered.</p>
<p>Q: So, in short it wasn’t effective for you or your
clients.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: The grants?</p>
<p>
Q: Yes.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, I guess some people really needed the grants, and a
lot of people were
unemployed, so I guess it helped a little. We got the grants,
we signed a two-year lease, got some grants, $6,000 grants----I live
in Confucius Plaza, and part of it was taxable. So that’s a
help. Everything’s a help.</p>
<p>
Q: How did you hear about the grants after 9/11?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: To tell you the truth, I didn’t know about it. I was
at a meeting, and somebody---I was at a party, or a meeting, and
somebody mentioned these grants that you could sign up the
Chinese-American bank. Because I don’t read the Chinese
newspapers, so I’m handicapped that way, I didn’t even
know about it, so then I went to inquire, and that’s how I got
that LMCD grant.</p>
<p>
Q: So you didn’t read that grant on mainstream newspaper,
English newspaper?<br><br>JACKSON: Well, yeah, I read the English
newspaper, but they didn’t have much information on those
grants. And then you hear something, maybe funny business going on,
so I didn’t pay much attention.</p>
<p>
Q: Where were you on the day of 9/11?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: I was in Confucius Plaza community room working. That was
the primary day. I remember very vividly, it was primary day, and in
that room, there’s no TV, no radio. Working since 5:30 in the
morning, that’s when we started, and it was about, I think.
about 10:30 where people start coming in and saying there’s no
more, no more World Trade Center. And they were very upset and
screaming, so we went out to take a look and we saw the smoke coming,
the black smoke. And then we were just, everybody was so shocked,
was in a state of shock, and then they said we can close up at 11:30.
And then, Confucius Plaza wanted to evacuate the whole two buildings.
</p>
<p>
Q: Why?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Because
there were rumors that they were going to bomb Confucius Plaza next.
We didn’t know, but that was the rumor. So they evacuated
everybody, the super had to knock on everybody’s door and tell
you to go out, and everyone was standing around in the grounds.</p>
<p>
Q: Where is Confucius Plaza?<br><br>JACKSON: Confucius Plaza is
located on the Bowery between Division and the Manhattan Bridge.</p>
<p>
Q: Where did you evacuate to?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, I was so tired from all the commotion, and getting up
at 5:30 in the morning, that I stayed in my apartment, and took a
nap. [laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: Where was your family at this time?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Oh, my parents, we couldn’t find my parents. My
sisters and brothers from California were calling me, “Where’s
mom and dad?” And I was trying to contact them. And I was so
worried, because we didn’t know where they were. I was calling
them, and trying to call them and contact them. The next morning, I
was calling the police and trying to file a missing person report.
And at twelve o’clock, my parents came in. They were at the
casino in Connecticut. And the casino would not let them leave, and
they were stuck there and couldn’t make any phone calls and
there was no phone service. It was terrible, no phone service, so
nobody, and nobody knew where they were. And finally, when I’d
been talking to the police station, trying to file a report, and then
they just came in (to my apt).
</p>
<p>
Q: You mentioned, after 9/11, that Chinatown was very quiet. Can you
describe that a little bit more?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: There were a lot of barriers put up, a lot of stores were
closed, we couldn’t
get the, buy those things to cover your nose---</p>
<p>
Q: The masks.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: The masks, right. Supplies were sort of all gone, even
buying milk and things like that. Things were really restricted.
Trucks couldn’t come in because there were barriers put up all
over the place. But we tried to continue our life as much as
possible. Kids went to school. And I had to work from my home,
because I have a land-line phone, so that’s the only phone that
really worked well. And then we had to go downtown to apply for
these phones. There was all kinds of information we had to bring them
to apply for it. So that was a little unnerving.</p>
<p>
Q: Was that a difficult process?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes, because there were a lot of people applying for the
phones.</p>
<p>
Q: Did they offer, did they have Chinese translators?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: No, they didn’t.</p>
<p>
Q: So only the people who can speak English were able to apply?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you know at that time, were there any agencies in Chinatown
helping them with it?<br><br>JACKSON: Yes, I understand that later
on, there was the CCBA involved, and I think the Chinatown Planning
Council helped out. And then on Worth Street, that’s when they
had some Chinese people. I know that some students’ alliance
club, some students from the Manhattan Community College, they
volunteered for the language (translation) and to
help the people fill out forms, or guide them where
to go. And the Lioness---we gave out blankets and supplies from our
location in mid-town to help the workers.</p>
<p>
Q: How long did the quietness last? When did you notice that
Chinatown was busy again, or that Chinatown has recovered?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Oh, I feel, quite a while, at least, maybe a year later.
People didn’t travel, people were afraid to travel. At the
time, the fares were very cheap. But we did, we went to Hawaii to
visit.</p>
<p>
Q: You were not afraid?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: No. We couldn’t believe it, usually it’s like
eight hundred dollars. At that time, it was only five hundred to go
to Hawaii.</p>
<p>
Q: What was the impact on the business? I mean, you mentioned there
was impact, but how drastic---</p>
<p>
JACKSON: The business was very quiet. There was hardly any business.</p>
<p>
Q: How did you contact the clients when you didn’t have the
phone? Did the clients just come by or---?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, we had signs in front of the door with the phone
number if they wanted to contact us. Because, you know, you couldn’t
operate your business without the phone lines. And then the
properties that I manage, we put signs, we physically go there and
put signs up, and help where ever possible.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, let’s shift gears, and talk about you.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Oh, me? [laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: How are you involved in the community?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, I was the PTA president when my children were young,
from elementary school all the ways up to junior high school. That’s
one. And then, I was a Lioness, started the Chinese-American Lioness
Club. I didn’t know a thing about Lion, Lionism, and that’s
a service organization. We do projects like, to help the senior
citizen, or we give scholarships to the school. We have to do our own
fundraising, by that, we have a flea market, we issue a journal, and
we have meetings twice a month. So I’m involved in that.</p>
<p>
And then I became a board member for the Chinatown Health Clinic, and
that takes a lot of time, and you don’t get no pay. You just
get a nice dinner when you go to the board meetings. And I’m
involved in the fund raising. And then also I’m a member of the
ITC, International Training Communication. It’s an
organization, an educational organization that teaches you how to
speak (& how to organize and do leadership things).
</p>
<p>
Q: Why did you get involved with all these organizations?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: I feel because I live and work in Chinatown, and I like to
give back to my community. I think it’s very important. I also
ask my children to do that. Two of my children are attorneys, and
they volunteer their services at the church, no fee. They like to do
things that don’t make any money. (laughs)</p>
<p>Q: Tell me a little bit more about the Lioness Club. Have they
been around in Chinatown for a long time?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, ours was the first one started in 1980. No, but there
is the men’s, the Chinatown Lions Club is about sixty years
old. It’s mostly men. They didn’t have women doing
service. We were like a project of theirs. And then, when we started
our club, there was the Governor Lions Club, there was the City Hall
Lions Club---Lioness Club, which
was all women. They spoke Chinese all the women
spoke Chinese, but our club was really international. We have people
from Denmark, mostly professional teachers, or business people. We
have black people, we have Japanese, we have Jewish people. So ours
is really sort of international. That’s why now we’re
called the New York Cosmopolitan Lions. And we became Lioness in
1987, and this is our twenty-fourth year.</p>
<p>
We have purchased medical equipment for the Chinatown Health Clinic.
We bought a lot of eye equipment. And we go visit the senior citizens
and we gave out donations, red envelopes, for Chinese New Year. We do
things in the community, buy equipments (for daycare center and gave
scholarships to the high school students).
</p>
<p>
Q: Tell me about your children.<br><br>
</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, my second child was born in Kings Highway, Brooklyn.
We had to sell the (restaurant) business because it was really hard
to manage, and we have two young kids.
</p>
<p>
Q: I’m sorry. Backtrack. Which business?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Our restaurant business. Our restaurant was on Avenue P and
Ocean Parkway. So we sold that, as I was getting ready to give birth
to my second child. And then we were almost evicted. The marshal was
coming in the middle of the night, so luckily we had a place to move
to in Manhattan. And that’s how my husband purchased a
building in Manhattan.</p>
<p>Q: Why were you being evicted?<br><br>JACKSON: Because when we
sold the business we didn’t work, and when you have a family,
and when you don’t have income coming in, it’s very easy,
the money just goes very fast. So luckily my husband put a small down
payment on the apartment building in Manhattan, and we moved to
Manhattan.
</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, you were evicted from your apartment ----</p>
<p>
JACKSON: In Brooklyn, yes.
</p>
<p>
Q: Not from the restaurant, because you already sold it?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: No, because we already sold it, right.</p>
<p>
Q: And it was on the way, moving from Brooklyn to Manhattan, that
your son was born?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: Why did you guys pick settle in Chinatown?<br><br>JACKSON: Oh,
then after we were living in the East Village, and then the building
department says, “You can’t live in sort of a basement
apartment”, so that’s why we had to sell that property,
and we moved to Chinatown. Because my husband used to have an
employment agency in downtown Manhattan, and that building was going
out of business, and all the employment agencies had to move, so
that’s why we came here, to East Broadway and opened up the
employment agency.</p>
<p>
Q: Can I ask you how much you bought the building for, and when was
this?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: The building in Chinatown? Oh, back then in the seventies,
back in the early seventies, this building only cost---believe me, it
was a wreck, though---it only cost thirty five thousand dollars.
</p>
<p>
Q: How much is it worth now?<br><br>JACKSON: I think it’s
worth about, at least a million. I told you, that’s the time,
you
know when
you have a lot of children, and my husband always likes to buy these
handyman specials. We really worked very hard at it because we didn’t
have a lot of money to purchase buildings. I mean, we could never
afford one today. The prices they’re asking like two million,
one million. With thirty-five thousand dollars, we put down five
thousand, and you get a mortgage for thirty thousand, which the
landlord would give you, so you didn’t have to go to the bank.
So it was much different back in those days. And that’s why we
were able to buy this building, and pay it off (after fifteen years).
</p>
<p>
Q: Of all the buildings that you manage, do you own them, or you are
helping other people to manage?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: No. In the beginning, I manage a lot for a lot of people. I
manage for a lady who was a rabbi, a rabbi’s wife. Manage for
some other business people in Chinatown.
</p>
<p>
Q: Where was the rabbi’s----</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Her building was on Avenue C and East Sixth Street. And
then I managed buildings on Mott Street. I managed buildings on
Jefferson Street. I managed a coal building, we had to put coal into
the boiler. Those were interesting times. But you know, we really
worked very hard. My mother always said, “hard work never
killed anybody”, And it’s true. [laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: Is your business spread over Manhattan now, or they concentrated
in one area?<br><br>JACKSON: Most of our business? Well, I manage
some properties in the Bronx, in Manhattan, East Village, some in
Chinatown.</p>
<p>
Q: Since you grew up in Brooklyn, but you raised your children in
Chinatown, what was the difference, or similarity?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Being and living in Chinatown, I always wanted my children
to know other
people’s
culture. Inside PS 2, there was Spanish children, black, Jewish
children, and other American children. I always taught them to stay
with the nice kids, and try to understand other people’s
culture so that they would be more versatile, and they would not feel
the discrimination that I had felt when I was young, right? I really
know what it feels like to be discriminated against. And so my
children, they were able to make friends with other nationalities.
And we invited the people to our home, and had dinner. They didn’t
speak Chinese, even though I had a Chinese teacher for them. They had
no interest in learning Chinese, they would fall asleep. And my
daughter, we sent her to the Chinese school for kindergarten, she
went for one year, and then she lost interest. So they always spoke
English. But now, a lot of Chinese (in Chinatown) don’t speak
English. So it’s really difficult. It’s really different.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you feel easy living in Chinatown, or outside Chinatown?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Now? Or then?</p>
<p>
Q: Then, or now.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Well, I really had to get used to Chinatown myself too
because I never lived in Chinatown before. My kids, they had to
memorize certain dishes that they liked. They had to memorize the
dishes in order to order the food. We had one incident where my son
was shot in the head with a bb-gun, when he was only fourteen years
old. He was coming back to the office to close up, and my husband and
I were taking courses at Murry Bergtraum High School. I didn’t
know he was shot in the head until I came home and I saw his face was
like off to one side, and then I knew something was wrong, so I
rushed him over to Bellevue. And he was sick for almost a year. We
had wanted to give a reward (to find out) who shot this bb-gun. The
police, they never found out who did it. And so some people said,
“Maybe you should leave Chinatown, because of this incident”.
And I said, “Well, why should I leave Chinatown? We live and
work here. No matter where you go, you might---we never expected this
to happen”. But luckily, he pulled through, and the bullet was
taken out of his brain. It was almost inside the brain. It was really
thin skin.
All
the churches for praying for him, and luckily faith was keeping us
going, and so he survived, thank God.</p>
<p>
Q: So do you feel Chinatown was safe or unsafe back then?<br><br>JACKSON:
Well, back then there was a lot of gangs. My daughter experienced.
They didn’t like the way she walked, and some gang member was
trying to beat her up on East Broadway. Luckily she was passing her
church on East Broadway, and somebody was looking out the window and
came down to help them. And I was so upset. I was so upset that these
gangs can attack young children, that I called the police. And then
another incident, they mistook my sons (for gang members). My sons
were going to buy ice cream, and the gang members pushed him into a
hallway, and wanted to beat them up in the hallway, but luckily my
son is smart, he called to his brother, and his brother came to help
him. And then they realized it was the wrong person they had. So my
children were never involved in gangs because we always tried to
teach them---they have to know what’s right and what’s
wrong, the most important thing. I wanted them to be good citizens.
They didn’t have to be brilliant, but they had to be human and
be good citizens. That’s all I asked. And to be a good student.
And that’s their job. I used to explain to them, “That’s
your job, being a good student. And mommy and daddy is supporting and
paying the bills.” We had those three incidents when they were
young, and I was very upset, but I still wouldn’t leave
Chinatown.</p>
<p>
Q: When was that?<br><br>
</p>
<p>
JACKSON: It was back in the seventies. And the gangs came, and even
then they tried to come to (to the store). You know, I don’t
believe in giving the gangs anything, not a penny. I never paid
anybody a penny. Because I figured, “Gangs, if they were doing
something good for the community instead of just trying to get money.
I wouldn’t mind contributing for the community.” I used
to tell my neighbors, “You don’t have to give these gangs
anything.” When I was the PTA president, one of the students’
parents had a restaurant on Division Street. And he said the gangs
would come into the restaurant and
order---a bunch of them, a whole table---order food,
get up and don’t pay for it. And so we mentioned that to the
principal, and the principal called the undercover people. Next time
they came, next day they came again, and sat around and ordered a
lot of food. They got up and was leaving, and the other table was all
police officers, and they all got arrested.</p>
<p>
So it was a proof that you don’t have to pay these gangs.
Because those parents, they really worked very hard. Why should we
pay these gang members?</p>
<p>
Q: Did they bother you or your business?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: One time, they tried to---I was in court--and they tried to
throw all the customers out, saying, “Do you want your life, do
you want your life? You’d better leave.” And then they
tried to knock the TV down. But meanwhile, we had all these cameras.
So when I came back, the help (staff) was frighten you know, of
course I wanted them to be protected. The gang members told them not
to come back to work tomorrow, that they’re going to do
something to the place. So I said to my help---as I came back later,
in the afternoon--- and I said “What, are they making a movie
or something?” I mean, I said, “I can’t believe
this is happening. Are they making a joke?”</p>
<p>
And so my husband and I went to the police and the next day all the
undercover people, some were outside in the car, and some in my back
room. When they (gangs) came in again, I told them “I’m
not giving you anything. What do you want to do about it?”
This was said in Chinese. They started to get up. And meanwhile, I
had a bullet-proof vest on, just in case. Those bullet-proof vests
are so hot. And the police wanted me to give them marked money, but I
didn’t. Because I never give any of these bad guys anything,
because I don’t believe it---I feel it’s a principle. And
so I didn’t give them anything, and the police were a little
annoyed at me because I didn’t give them the marked money. But
when they started to go out, they sort of threatened, and the police
heard it. They had the videotape from the day before because we gave
them the videotape, we had to go down to the police headquarters.
Then the police arrested them because they found out that they
had killed somebody in Massachusetts. And this one
guy was arrested. Then later on, he wanted to apologize. He had
another person, like an intermediate, to apologize to us. So it made
the newspapers and people were wondering, “are you okay?”
And that was the end, that was the end of that.</p>
<p>
Then sometimes a few years later, some people, they come in, a
young lady and a young girl, and they’re bringing a plant. So I
thought it was from a friend. So I said, “Who’s this
from?” And they said, “This is from the street.”
And once they said “from the street,” I said, “No,
I can’t accept it.” And I did speak to them in English,
so the girl says, “Oh, let’s get out of here.”<br><br>Q:
So they were intimidated----</p>
<p>
JACKSON: They wanted----</p>
<p>
Q: ---by the fact that you speak English.
</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Yes, and then my other neighbors, they said, “Oh,
because you speak English, that’s why they don’t bother
you so much, because they only speak Chinese.” So I said, “But
this is America, you don’t have to be intimidated by them. You
have to stand up for your rights.”
</p>
<p>
Q: Then why do you think other people, give in to protection monies
and all this stuff?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Because they’re afraid. They don’t, they’re
afraid.</p>
<p>
Q: Because of the language? Or the culture?<br><br>JACKSON: The
language and the culture. They don’t want trouble so they give
them money. I never give anybody a penny. I’m terrible. Because
it’s the principle of it. I mean, if somebody, if my friend was
sick and something, I would of course lend them, give
them money for food or something. But I don’t
believe in supporting these gangsters. So back in the ‘70s
there was really a lot of gangsters around, but now I think it’s
less, or I think it’s much less. At least, they don’t
come around to my place. I don’t know about the others,
because as I said, I’m handicapped---I don’t read Chinese
newspapers. Maybe that way it’s good in a way, because I would
be crazy. (laughs)</p>
<p>
Q: Tell me how different Chinatown is now, compared to the ‘70s.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: The ‘70s? Okay, the ‘70s were less people. Now,
ever since the immigration law was passed in ’65, more Chinese
have come to America, more immigrants. So now there are a lot of new
immigrants, and they’re mostly from Fukzhao. And the Cantonese
people sort of moved to New Jersey, Queens. That’s why there
are three Chinatowns now. There used to only be one, which was
Manhattan. But the one in Queens is mostly people from Taiwan. And
now in Manhattan Chinatown, it’s hard to find a good Cantonese
restaurant these days, because we’re so used to our Cantonese
cooking. There’s a lot of Fukzhao type of food. Their food
tastes a little different. And they speak their own dialect, and if
you don’t understand it, it’s a little difficult. They
speak also broken Mandarin.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you feel disconnected from them?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Sometimes. Because I don’t understand what they’re
saying.
</p>
<p>
Q: Is there any way to improve the communication between them?
Between them and you?<br><br>JACKSON: Well, if they speak English
or they speak a little Cantonese. I try to understand. But my
secretary understands Mandarin, so she speaks to them in Mandarin,
and then the other girls who work outside speak Fukanese, so I have
to ask them to translate.</p>
<p>
Q: I want to
ask you, do you see any way Chinatown should be improved? Do you
think Chinatown is sufficient in handing all these new immigrants
from Fujian area?<br><br>
</p>
<p>
JACKSON: In terms of service and space, well, not really, because I
don’t think we have enough of housing for the new immigrants.
And lot of them, they’re overcrowded, their apartments are
overcrowded and illegal. Some of them, they like to break the law.
There’s one instance where they rent an apartment and they’re
using it for prostitution. Which is very bad. And I didn’t know
until the police called me and said they were watching the building.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was this one of the buildings you managed?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Man---yes.</p>
<p>
Q: And where is this located?</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Over here on Rutgers Street. I mean, I couldn’t
believe it, I checked their reference and everything but they’re
still doing sort of illegal business. And so, I had to call an
attorney, I had to deal with the D.A.’s office, and finally
they left. But then they go to another place, and starts this
prostitution business (again), which is not very good. They have
their own laws, like they don’t want to listen to what the
rules are here. You tell them it’s overcrowded and it’s
illegal, but they still rent the apartments. I understand there’s
some apartments where they pay for eight hours day time and eight
hours night time.</p>
<p>
Q: You say housing---</p>
<p>
JACKSON: ---And the housing, of course the sanitation, they block
the streets with their wares, and you can hardly walk. Chinatown
should be clean and it should be just as clean as uptown, but it’s
not, and that’s because we don’t have any political
clout. And that’s what we need more, the young people to come
out to vote, because if we don’t vote, we
don’t get the services that we really
desperately need.</p>
<p>Q: Besides the political clout, what else can Chinatown do to
help improve the quality of living?<br><br>JACKSON: The quality of
living? Besides the sanitation, the schools. I understand from some
educators, that because the parents work or they work out of town---
the new immigrants --- that the grandparents take care of the kids,
and that the kids don’t listen to the grandparents. I
understand they’re kind of wild in the elementary school. So I
always believe that all kids should get a good education, and
sometimes because the parents are not involved, they just go sort of
haywire.
</p>
<p>
When I was PTA president, I used to always said to the parents, I
said, “If you want your child to do well in school, you’ll
have to be involved, and check his work, or if you have a problem,
you go right to the teacher, or the principal.”</p>
<p>
Q: Why do the parents go out of town? Is there not enough jobs in
Chinatown?<br><br>JACKSON: I guess there’s not enough jobs.
They go all over, they work in Chicago, or out of state, and they
just leave the kids with the grandparents.</p>
<p>
Q: What kind of job do they do outside of the city?<br><br>JACKSON:
I think mostly it’s the restaurant, or sewing factories.
Service business.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think Chinatown can have more industry, create more
industry, or more jobs?<br><br>JACKSON: We lost a lot of the sewing
factories. We used to have about five hundred, and now I think it’s
only a handful. There are a lot of factories have gone, and so that
makes the economy in Chinatown bad Because the women used to work in
sewing factory, and then they would go to the restaurants for lunch,
or for tea, and so that’s lost.
That’s why a lot of people are unemployed.</p>
<p>
Q: Since your husband’s in the employment business, do you
guys see any new business growing in Chinatown that will replace the
garment or the restaurant?<br><br>JACKSON: I don’t think so.
No.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have any more to say about this interview? About yourself,
or Chinatown, or anything?<br><br>JACKSON: [Laughs] Well, I want to
thank you for interviewing me. I hope my story or my information is
helpful to other people.</p>
<p>
Q: Thank you very much.</p>
<p>
JACKSON: Thank you.</p>
<p>
<strong>[END
OF INTERVIEW]</strong></p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:我是Teri Chan,我在這裏採訪Jeanne Jackson,地點是東百老彙126號,唐人街,紐約。你能講一下你的全名嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:好的。我叫Jeanne Lee Jackson。</p>
<p>問:我想問你一個不尋常的問題。你爲什么姓傑克遜?</p>
<p>傑克遜:因爲我丈夫,他是上海人。他來美國的時候成爲了一名美國公民,他因此非常高興,所以他把Jackson Lee調換了一下就變成了Lee Jackson。他們問他想不想改名,因爲在六十年代入籍問話是一個一個問的,而不是像現在一組一組問。</p>
<p>問:他有沒有申請過改名?</p>
<p>傑克遜:沒有,他經常開玩笑地講,“我的曾祖父是Andrew Jackson。”[笑] 但在我們剛剛結婚的時候,商店裏的人以爲我丈夫是美國人,或者是黑人。中國人沒有姓傑克遜的。[笑] 別人也拿我的孩子開玩笑,說他們是Jackson Five,或Jackson Six。</p>
<p>問:你的孩子有沒有想要改名?</p>
<p>傑克遜:沒有。</p>
<p>問:他們喜歡這個名字。</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的。<br>
問:你和你丈夫是怎樣認識的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我們是通過報紙認識的。[笑]</p>
<p>問:講---</p>
<p>傑克遜:我曾經參加過Ging Hawk俱樂部,這是一個亞洲婦女俱樂部。有一次我們在中央公園滑冰,拾到一份唐人街的地方報紙,上面說有“免費中文課。”因爲我是在美國出生的華人,我總是想學中文。於是,我們就跟那裏聯繫,我和他就是這樣認識的。他在那裏教課。</p>
<p>問:什麽---</p>
<p>傑克遜:---我是他的學生。</p>
<p>問:這是什麽時候的事情?</p>
<p>傑克遜:1960年。</p>
<p>問:好的,讓我們再談一下在此之前的事。你是什麽時候在哪里出生的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我於1940年2月在紐約曼哈頓出生。</p>
<p>問:你是在哪里長大的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我在布魯克林區Green Point長大。我母親開了一家洗衣店,我在PS 34上的小學,在126中上的初中,後來在Long Island City上的高中。</p>
<p> 問:在Fort Greene長大的情形如何?</p>
<p>傑克遜:Green Point。</p>
<p>問:是Green Point,對不起。</p>
<p>傑克遜:那時差不多是二戰末期,我是那所小學裏唯一的亞裔學生,受到了很多歧視。而且,我有點兒淘氣。老師經常護著我。但其他學生總是辱駡我,並給我取各種各樣的外號。我總是想反抗,因爲我很自豪自己是美籍華人。我想因爲戰爭,二戰,人們對亞洲人的看法有些改變。</p>
<p>問:你是怎樣反抗的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:在上初中的時候,他們總是想放學後和我打架。因爲我非常非常勇敢,我總是向他們挑戰。我說,好吧,我們打架,我們放學後要在某個地方打,一群孩子會過來看。</p>
<p>問:是男孩還是女孩,或者---</p>
<p>傑克遜:男孩女孩都有。</p>
<p>問:不同種族的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:多半是波蘭人。波蘭人和愛爾蘭人。</p>
<p>問:在上高中之後是不是還經常有這樣的事情?</p>
<p> 傑克遜:上高中之後就沒有了。上了高中就好了一些,因爲我去的是Long Island City高中。我在那裏不太受歧視,因爲我是1957年畢業的。我只上了三年,54年到57年在高中。我在高中的時候很開心。我大多時候與一些亞裔學生在一起---那裏亞裔學生也不多,有三、四個。我們經常打保齡球,籃球。</p>
<p>問:你和唐人街的小孩有沒有來往?</p>
<p>傑克遜:沒有,因爲我們住在Green Point,在布魯克林區,你要坐G車,大約需要45分鐘。</p>
<p>問:你有沒有去你父母的洗衣店幫他們?</p>
<p>傑克遜:有,我不得不幫。每天早上,我父母要給髒衣服上漿並把衣服裝到袋子裏。我要整理上漿的地方,然後我母親要用手搓領子,我要把髒衣服放到袋子裏等濕洗公司過來取。做洗衣服這一行最開心的時候是把洗好的衣服交給顧客並收錢。然後我對自己講,“我希望我不會嫁給一個做洗衣店生意的。這份工作太辛苦了。”</p>
<p>問:你開始幫你父母的時候有多大?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我想我大概是十歲或十一歲。</p>
<p>問:你一共幫了多長時間?</p>
<p>傑克遜:幾年。</p>
<p>問:你父母是從哪里來的?他們是在這裏出生的嗎?</p>
<p> 傑克遜:不是的。我母親出生在麻塞諸塞州,但我父親是從中國廣州來的。</p>
<p>問:我們先談一下你父親那一邊。</p>
<p>傑克遜:好的。</p>
<p>問:他是什麽時候來美國的?現在他家裏人是不是都在這裏,還是---</p>
<p>傑克遜:我想我父親是二十多歲的時候來這裏的。他是個紙兒子,他要花錢買文件到這邊來。來了之後,他就開始打工。他總是說他花了三千美元。他借了三千美元來美國,來了之後就要還帳。後來,他又回到中國,我想他是想回去討老婆。他很幸運,因爲有人把我母親介紹給了他。我母親很小的時候就回到中國去了,因爲她母親死了,我祖母和她的父親把三個孩子全送回到中國。他們就是這樣認識的。我母親跟我父親結婚時只有十五歲。</p>
<p>問:他們是什麽時候又回到美國的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:1936年。當時,中國已經在跟日本打仗。很幸運,我母親是美國公民,她能再回到美國。而其他很多人都不能把他們的妻子帶過來。</p>
<p>問:她回來的時候,這裏男人和女人的比例是多少?</p>
<p>傑克遜:男的比女的多。實際上,我母親說她花了三年的時間才知道怎麽去唐人街。我們以前住在42街三大道,而她用了三年的時間才知道怎麽去唐人街,而我父親卻擔心別人把她搶走,因爲當時亞裔女孩子非常少。</p>
<p> 問:你父母講中文還是英文?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我父母講中文。但在我出生的時候,我母親得了肺結核,被送到療養院,而我被送到孤兒院。在上州療養院那裏,她學了英文。我父親很辛苦,因爲他要去看我母親,又要去孤兒院看我。</p>
<p>問:你在孤兒院待了多長時間,你當時有多大?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我很小。我想我也許只有幾個月大。我在孤兒院一直待到我教母---她經常領養一些小孩,就這樣成了我的教母。她住在布魯克林。</p>
<p>問:她是中國人嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的,是中國人。她收養了很多小孩,他們的父母要不是生病,要不就是抛棄了他們。</p>
<p>問:你還記不記得和她住一起的事情?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我當時的確很小,但我總是非常愛我的教母。她對我們一直都非常好,比我的親生父母都好。[笑] 我教父在曼哈頓的Nassau街開了一家餐館,我記得他有一部福特T型汽車,我和他一起去Essex街買菜。</p>
<p>問:最後你母親康復了?</p>
<p> 傑克遜:是的,然後我又和我父母住在一起了。</p>
<p>問:你有兄弟姐妹嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我有一個哥哥,兩個妹妹。我哥哥是醫生,精神科醫生,我的兩個妹妹一個教書,另外一個在加利福尼亞的一家超級商場工作。</p>
<p>問:你有孩子嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:有,四個,一個女兒,三個兒子。我現在有十四個孫子女。</p>
<p>問:你有沒有跟你的孩子講過你的經歷,家裏的事情?</p>
<p>傑克遜:有,因爲我們小時候家裏非常窮。因爲我父母要養活三個家庭,他們要資助我父親在中國的家人,我母親要資助她父親,還要照顧我們。因此,我們沒有玩具或其他東西。能有飯吃我們已經覺得很幸運了。即使你小的時候家裏窮,你仍然能夠過活。我們父母爲了我們而拼命工作,我們的確非常愛他們。他們爲了我們四個孩子做了很多犧牲。</p>
<p>問:讓我們講一下你大學畢業後的事情。在結婚之前你做什麽?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我在曼哈頓大通銀行工作。我在那裏做了六年,從他們的學校那裏畢業之後,我就做了業務主管,然後遇到了我丈夫。我們認識三個月之後就結婚了。[笑] 我們經常在布魯克林市區Junior’s約會,那時我丈夫做印刷。他有自己的印刷生意,後來我們開了一家外賣店(餐館)。<br>
我對中餐館一竅不通。因此,我不得不學每一件事,怎樣做雲吞,怎樣做排骨。我們在布魯克林開了一家小餐館(外賣店)。因爲我們那時只有四百美元,在61年,我們很幸運,自己做了所有的事。我們做了一個大冰櫃,還有鋪地板,刷漿。那些廚師給了我們一些錢,說,“你以後再還給我們。”</p>
<p>我們就這樣開了自己的小外賣店。我女兒是那時出生的,我們店前有一個嬰兒圍欄。有一些小孩經常過來和她一起玩。我們經常賣炒麵,一杯二十五分,午餐排骨和炒飯,五十分,在一家初中學校附近,Hudde Junior High School,在Nostrand大道和J大道交口處。</p>
<p>問:你那家餐館開了多久?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我們做了大約三年的外賣,然後又在P大道開了一家餐館。我當時要生第二個孩子,所以不得不停止做餐館生意,因爲很難找到人照看孩子。於是,我們又開始做曼哈頓房地産生意。</p>
<p>問:請講一下房地産生意。</p>
<p>傑克遜:我們在東二街買了第一棟樓,一個二十四家庭的公寓樓。我們從來沒有雇過管理員。我必須要自己學怎樣做管理員,看門人。我經常要提一桶水爬五層樓梯,清洗走廊。除了照顧我的孩子以外,我就做這些,料理那棟樓。我還要負責地下室的備用鍋爐。所有這些都是我一邊做一邊學的。的確是很好的經驗。</p>
<p> 問:你那個時候住在哪里?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我們從布魯克林搬到曼哈頓東二街。</p>
<p>問:你們那時的生活方式是典型中國家庭的生活方式,還是說很不傳統?</p>
<p>傑克遜:典型中國家庭?因爲我是在這裏出生的,我想我更現代一些。我的孩子去了Headstart。我志願參加Headstart和小學的服務,我給那些新移民的家長做翻譯。除了照看自己的孩子以外,我做了很多義務工作。也沒有別人幫我,因爲我父母還在工作。</p>
<p>問:你能夠與那些新移民交流嗎?你是否感到和那些人在文化上有牽連?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我想他們總認爲因爲我是在這裏出生的---,他們總是說,“你是chuhsane,你是在美國出生的。”這有一點不同。我尊重他們想要做的事情,我想他們也尊重我。這有一點不太一樣。</p>
<p>問:區別是什么,你和他們之間有什麽共同之處---</p>
<p>傑克遜:那些從中國來的?首先是語言。語言是個大問題,然後是對孩子的教育。他們非常護著孩子。而我經常讓我的孩子去Fresh Air Camp,他們很難理解我讓六、七歲的孩子去外面宿營兩個星期。因爲我想讓我的孩子獨立,並且學習其他文化,玩的開心。因爲我們住在城市裏,我們從來沒有錢度假,因爲我們總是在工作。</p>
<p>問:你們是否用不同的方式來教育孩子?</p>
<p> 傑克遜:我演好人,而我丈夫演壞人。感謝上帝。我想這是爲什麽每個孩子都需要一個母親和一個父親,因爲一個人很難---我認爲是很難。如果沒有他們的父親,我真不知道該怎麽辦。</p>
<p>問:我想再倒退一點。作爲一個女人,我對你在大通銀行工作的經驗很感興趣。是不是在那裏工作的亞裔人很少,或者亞裔婦女很少,那裏的情況怎麽樣?</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的。曼哈頓是大通銀行的總部,主要的辦公樓,儲備部門。這麽大的辦公樓裏只有三個亞洲人。我負責五個打散工的,我很喜歡我的工作,監督。但我剛開始的時候做打字員,非常無聊。後來,我學會了抽煙。但我經常加班,因爲我父母很古板,我一直沒有時間談戀愛,不是工作就是上學,工作,學校。我想,你如果想要有所成就,你必須要有所付出。</p>
<p>問:別人是不是認爲你是典型的亞洲婦女?你覺得你很典型嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:不是的。我想他們尊重我。我的教父總是說,“既然你是亞洲人,而且亞洲人又這麽少,你總是要做得更好,讓人家知道你很負責任,非常盡責,做好自己的工作,這樣別人會看到的。你必須這樣做,因爲我們希望其他亞洲人來了之後也能找到工作。”</p>
<p>問:再讓我們談一下你的房地産生意。你是不是還有些地産,多少---</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的,在我孩子還小的時候,我有上學,我首先做了一名銷售人員,然後是房地産經紀人,我也有學保險。我的辦公室從1973年以來都在這裏。辦公室也是我自己蓋的。這裏沒有牆,沒有地板,<br>
完全是個垃圾堆。這個區域被廢棄了,但是逐漸地,從73年開始,生意變得非常好,至少是南佛羅里達的地産,在Lehigh。我們做管理和出租(住宅和商業)。</p>
<p>問:你都有哪些顧客?</p>
<p>傑克遜:誰---</p>
<p>問:你的顧客有哪些,他們的背景怎樣?</p>
<p>傑克遜:因爲我的辦公室在---,什麽人都有,有黑人,猶太人,一些中國人。這就是爲什麽我喜歡那個地方,因爲很多元化。我遇到很多人,他們到那裏做公證,保險。那個區域有很多流動人口。</p>
<p>問:是不是有一些老顧客,還是說你現在有更多的中國客戶,因爲唐人街已經擴張了?</p>
<p>傑克遜:因爲有很多流動人口,我們有很多老顧客。但是因爲現在有很多競爭,越來越多的人在唐人街開自己的生意。比如現在,因爲東百老彙是一個小福州,因爲人們都講那個地方的方言,而我不講他們的方言,這是我的劣勢。房地産和保險業有很多競爭。但至少我們還能維持自己的生意,我們在這裏已經有很長時間了,從1973年開始。</p>
<p>問:你是怎樣應付這些競爭的?你有新的經營方式嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我們儘量提供最好的服務,我也有做報稅。如果他們有問題,我都會盡力幫助他們的,我們不多收他們的錢,就這些方面。我們的服務跟其他人有所不同。<br>
因爲我們是做服務業的,每個人做生意的方式都不同。但是,如果只是爲了生存,任何人都能做這一行,但關鍵是要一直做下去。很多人都在做生意,然後轉天,或者第二年他們就不見了。但我們還在,因此我們做得應該還算不錯。</p>
<p>問:你提到他們講另外一種方言,福州話,而你顯然不會講---</p>
<p>傑克遜:我講臺山話。但我丈夫很幸運,他講三種方言。他講上海話,國語,廣州話,還有一些英文。</p>
<p>問:那你們是怎樣克服語言障礙爲新客戶提供服務的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我的秘書講國語,而我丈夫的職業介紹所裏有人講福州話。</p>
<p>問:跟我講一下你丈夫的職業介紹所。</p>
<p>傑克遜:職業介紹所裏有很多不同的部門。他雇了大約三十個女孩子。他主要做餐館,任何和餐館有關的,他把人介紹到全國各地,從波多黎各,到水牛城,麻塞諸塞,芝加哥。他現在是唐人街最老的職業介紹所之一。現在這裏又開了很多新的介紹所,很多年以前,和他競爭的只有三家,現在大約有五十家。很多人在他這裏幹,然後又離開開了他們自己的職業介紹所。</p>
<p>現在,工作不好找,因爲9/11和經濟不景氣。</p>
<p>問:能不能跟我講一下9/11對你和你丈夫的生意有什麽影響嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:在那之後一個半月裏我們這裏都沒有電話,這很麻煩,因爲我們必須要把招牌打出去,這樣我們只好用手機。<br>
Verizon給了我們手機,我們買了大約三十部手機。但生意很少,在開始幾天裏,唐人街像是一座鬼城。周圍都沒有人,我們還能聞到煙味,因爲我們離那裏僅有大約十二個路口。這確實對唐人街有嚴重的影響,很多人失去了工作,很多地方都關閉了。</p>
<p>問:你們有沒有得到9/11救濟計劃的援助?</p>
<p>傑克遜:沒有。我們想申請,我們正準備申請,但看到需要做很多文件,他們的確問了很多問題。因此我們就沒有申請,因爲要辦很多繁雜的手續。</p>
<p>問:你們有沒有幫助你們的客戶申請,既然你們有做報稅和保險?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我的客戶---他們想自己申請,當他們來做報稅的時候,他們沒有意識到他們得到的救濟金還要交稅。我有一個客戶因爲在唐人街的生意和在布魯克林的房子得到了救濟金,但在報稅的時候,她才知道她要交一萬八千塊稅。</p>
<p>問:有一些負面影響?</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的。我想很多人都知道這些。我遇到其他一些人,他們說他們不想讓政府去他們家裏看有沒有買空調,或空氣清潔器。他們就是不想受別人打擾。</p>
<p>問:簡單地講,這對你和你的客戶不是非常有效。</p>
<p>傑克遜:救濟金?</p>
<p> 問:是的。</p>
<p>傑克遜:我想一些人確實需要這些救濟金,很多人失業了,因此我想應該會有一些幫助。我們得到一些救濟金,簽了兩年的租約,六千塊救濟金---我住在孔子大廈,其中一部分是要交稅的。因此,這有些幫助。任何事都會有幫助的。</p>
<p>問:你是怎樣知道9/11救濟金的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:說實話,我不知道。有一次開會,有人---我在開一個會,有人提起這些救濟金,說你可以在中美銀行登記。因爲我不看中文報紙,從那個渠道瞭解不到,我甚至根本不知道,後來我去問別人,我就是這樣得到LMCD救濟金的。</p>
<p>問:你沒有在英文主流報紙上看到救濟金的消息嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我有看英文報紙,但是上面沒有太多關於那些救濟金的資訊。然後我聽到其他一些有意思的事情,所以我沒有太注意。</p>
<p>問:9/11那天你在哪里?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我在孔子大廈社區室工作。那是很重要的一天。我記得非常清楚,那個房間裏沒有電視,沒有無線廣播。我從早晨5:30開始都在那裏工作,等到我想大概是10:30的時候,有人進來說世貿中心沒有了。他們很沮喪,有的人在尖叫,於是我們就出去看,看到那裏在冒煙,黑煙。大家都很震驚,然後他們說我們可以11:30關門。那時,孔子大廈要疏散兩棟樓裏的人。</p>
<p> 問:爲什么?</p>
<p>傑克遜:因爲有傳聞說他們接下來要轟炸孔子大廈。我們不知道,但那是傳聞。所以,大家都被疏散了,管理員挨家敲門,讓裏面的人出去,所有的人都在下面站著。</p>
<p>問:孔子大廈在什么地方?</p>
<p>傑克遜:孔子大廈在Bowery街,位於Division街和曼哈頓橋之間。</p>
<p>問:你們被疏散到哪里?</p>
<p>傑克遜:因爲這些騷動,我已經很疲勞了,我是早晨5:30起的床,所以我呆在我的公寓裏睡覺。[笑]</p>
<p>問:那個時候你家在哪里?</p>
<p>傑克遜:啊,我父母,我們找不到我父母。我在加利福尼亞的哥哥和妹妹打電話給我,“爸爸媽媽在哪里?”我想和他們聯繫。我很擔心,因爲我們不知道他們在哪里。我給他們打電話,想聯繫他們。第二天早晨,我打電話給警察,想報告有人失蹤。在十二點的時候,我父母回來了。他們去了康涅狄格的娛樂場。娛樂場的人不讓他們走,他們被困在那裏,不能打電話,因爲沒有電話服務。當時很可怕,電話不通,沒人知道他們在哪里。最後,當我在警察局報告有人失蹤的時候,他們剛好回了家。</p>
<p> 問:你提到在9/11之後唐人街很安靜。你能再講得具體一些嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:這裏有很多路障,很多商店都關了門,我們買不到蓋在你鼻子上的那個---</p>
<p>問:面具。</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的,面具。這些儲備都沒有了,甚至牛奶之類的東西。購物受到限制。卡車開不進來,因爲到處都有路障。但我們還是盡力繼續正常的生活。孩子們去上學。我不得不在家裏工作,因爲我有一部地線電話,是唯一一部正常運作的電話。然後我們必須要去下城申請這些電話。在申請文件上,我們必須提供很多資訊。這搞得我很疲憊。</p>
<p>問:申請很麻煩嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的,因爲有很多人申請電話。</p>
<p>問:他們那裏有中文翻譯嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:沒有,那裏沒有。</p>
<p>問:那只有能講英文的人才能申請?</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的。</p>
<p>問:那時候你是否知道唐人街有什麽機構可以幫助他們申請?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我後來才知道,CCBA有介入,<br>
我想唐人街計劃理事會(Chinatown Planning Council)也幫了忙。還有在Worth街上有一些中國人。我知道那是一些學生聯盟組織,曼哈頓社區學院的一些學生,他們義務做翻譯幫助人們填表格,或跟他們講怎麽走。還有母獅---,我們在中城那裏發放毛毯和一些補給。</p>
<p>問:這樣的寂靜持續了多久?你是什麽時候注意到唐人街又繁忙起來的,或是說唐人街又恢復正常了?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我想是隔了一段時間,至少,也許一年之後。人們不旅行,人們怕旅行。那時的車票很便宜。但我們有出去玩,我們去了夏威夷。</p>
<p>問:你不害怕嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:不是不害怕。我們是不相信,通常票價是八百美元。那個時候,去夏威夷只需要五百塊。</p>
<p>問:對商業有什麽影響?我是說,你提到有影響,但有多麽嚴重---</p>
<p>傑克遜:沒有什麽生意。幾乎沒有什麽生意。</p>
<p>問:那時你沒有電話是怎樣跟客戶聯繫的?只是那些客戶過來還是---?</p>
<p>傑克遜:如果他們想要跟我們聯繫,我們門前招牌上有電話號碼。因爲,你知道,沒有電話你做不了生意。我們也在我管理的樓房那裏擺放了招牌,我們是親自到那裏立起招牌的,盡可能地幫助別人。</p>
<p> 問:讓我們換個話題,請談一下你自己。</p>
<p>傑克遜:我?[笑]</p>
<p>問:你的社區活動多不多?</p>
<p>傑克遜:在我孩子還小的時候,從他們上小學一直到初中,我都是PTA主席。這是其一。還有,我是一個母獅成員,創建了美籍華人母獅俱樂部。我當時不瞭解獅子,那是一個服務機構。我們舉辦像幫助老年人之類的活動,或者在學校設立獎學金。我們必須要自己籌款,爲此,我們辦了一個跳蚤市場,出了一本期刊,每個月開兩次會。這些我都有參與。</p>
<p>後來,我成爲唐人街健康診所委員會的成員,這佔用了我很多時間,沒有薪水的。只是你去開董事會會議時能夠吃上一頓好飯。我也參與了籌款。而且,我還是ITC的成員,國際交流培訓(International Traning Communication)。這是一個教育組織,教你怎樣講話,以及怎樣組織和領導。</p>
<p>問:你爲什么參與這些組織?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我覺得因爲我在唐人街生活工作,我想爲社區做些回報。我想這十分重要。而且我也要求我的孩子這樣做。我有兩個孩子是律師,他們義務去教堂服務,不收費。他們喜歡做一些沒有報酬的事情。[笑]</p>
<p>問:再跟我講一下那個母獅俱樂部。他們在唐人街有很長時間嗎?</p>
<p> 傑克遜:我們是第一家,從1980年開始。不對,還有一個男性組織,唐人街獅子俱樂部成立有六十多年了。大多數都是男人,他們不招女的。我們跟他們的組織類似。我們剛剛創立俱樂部的時候,有州長獅子俱樂部,有一個市政府獅子俱樂部---母獅俱樂部成員全部是婦女。他們講中文,所有的婦女會員都講中文,但我們的俱樂部是國際性的。我們有從丹麥來的會員,多半是職業教師,或商業界人士。我們有黑人,有日本人,有猶太人。所以,我們的確是國際性的。這就是爲什麽別人稱我們是紐約國際獅子。我們于1987年成爲母獅協會,今年我們已經是第二十四年了。</p>
<p>我們爲唐人街健康診所購置了醫療設備。我們買了很多眼科的設備。我們慰問老年人,發放捐款,過春節的時候派利是。我們爲社區做了很多事情,爲託兒所購買設備,發獎學金給高中學生。</p>
<p>問:請談一下你的孩子。</p>
<p>傑克遜:我第二個孩子出生在布魯克林區Kings Highway。我們不得不賣掉餐館生意,因爲很難料理,我們當時有兩個小孩。</p>
<p>問:很抱歉。請稍等一下。是什麽生意?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我們的餐館生意。我們的餐館在P大道和Ocean Parkway上。我們把它賣掉了,因爲我要生第二個孩子。我們幾乎是被轟出來的。執法人員半夜來了,幸好我們在曼哈頓有地方住。就這樣,我丈夫才在曼哈頓買了一棟樓。</p>
<p>問:他們爲什么要轟你走?</p>
<p> 傑克遜:因爲我們賣餐館的時候沒有工作,當你有了家庭又沒有收入的時候,錢花得很快。幸好,我丈夫付了一小筆定金,在曼哈頓買下了一棟公寓樓,然後我們就搬到了曼哈頓。</p>
<p>問:別人把你從公寓裏轟走了---</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的,在布魯克林。</p>
<p>問:不是餐館,因爲餐館已經賣掉了?</p>
<p>傑克遜:不是,餐館已經賣掉了,是的。</p>
<p>問:你兒子是在路上,從布魯克林到曼哈頓搬家的路上,出生的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的。</p>
<p>問:你們爲什么選擇住在唐人街?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我們在East Village住了一段時間之後,建築部門說,“你們不能在地下室住”,就是這樣我們不得不賣掉那個地産,然後就搬到唐人街。因爲我丈夫以前在曼哈頓下城開了一家職業介紹所,那棟樓的樓主很快就要倒閉了,所有的職業介紹所不得不搬走,這樣我們就搬到東百老彙這裏,開了這家職業介紹所。</p>
<p>問:我能問一下你花了多少錢買下那棟樓的?那是什麽時候?</p>
<p>傑克遜:唐人街的那棟樓?那是七十年代,七十年代初,這棟樓只賣---相信我,那時這裏一團糟---只花了三萬五千美元。</p>
<p> 問:現在值多少錢?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我想至少值一百萬。這是在那個時期,我家裏有很多孩子,我丈夫總是喜歡買那些便宜貨。我們的確工作非常努力,因爲我們沒有多少錢買房子。我是說,我們今天都買不起。他們現在出價兩百萬,一百萬。當時是三萬五千美元,我們下了五千塊定金,抵押貸款貸了三萬,這錢房東會借給你,因此你不必去找銀行。因此,那個時候和現在很不一樣。就是這樣我們才能買下這棟樓,十五年之後才還清。</p>
<p>問:你管理的那些樓是你自己的地産,還是幫別人管理?</p>
<p>傑克遜:沒有。起初,我幫很多人管理了很多地方。我幫一個牧師的太太管理,還有幫唐人街的一些生意人。</p>
<p>問:那個牧師的---</p>
<p>傑克遜:她的樓在C大道和東六街交口處。我還有管理Mott街上的樓。我有管理過Jefferson街上的樓。我還管理過一棟煤樓,我們要把煤放到鍋爐裏。那是個有趣的年代。但你知道,我們確實工作得很辛苦。我母親總是說,“辛勤工作不會死人的。”的確如此。[笑]</p>
<p>問:你現在的生意是不是分佈在曼哈頓各地,還是說集中在某一個區域?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我們大多數的生意?我管理的物業有的在布朗士區,有的在曼哈頓,East Village,一些在唐人街。</p>
<p> 問:你在布魯克林長大,但你是在唐人街把你的孩子帶大的,這兩個地方有什麽不同和相同之處?</p>
<p>傑克遜:搬到唐人街之後,我一直想讓我的孩子瞭解別人的文化。PS 2有西班牙人的孩子,黑人和猶太人的孩子,還有其他美國人的孩子。我總是讓他們和好孩子呆在一起,想讓他們瞭解別人的文化,使自己更加多元化,這樣他們不會受到我小時候受到的歧視。我非常瞭解被歧視的感受。我的孩子能夠和其他國家的人交朋友。我們有時請別人到我家來吃飯。我的孩子不會講中文,儘管我有給他們請中文教師。他們沒有興趣學,學的時候總是打瞌睡。我們把女兒送到中文幼稚園,她去了一年,然後就不感興趣了。所以,他們一直是講英文。但現在,唐人街很多中國人都不講英文。所以,現在不講中文的確很不方便。現在的確不一樣了。</p>
<p>問:你覺得在唐人街生活舒服,還是在外面生活舒服?</p>
<p>傑克遜:現在?還是那個時候?</p>
<p>問:當時,或者現在。</p>
<p>傑克遜:我自己必須要習慣唐人街,因爲我以前沒有在唐人街住過。我的孩子必須要記住他們喜歡的菜。他們必須要記住菜名好點菜。有一次,我兒子頭上中了一槍BB-Gun,當時他只有十四歲。當時他回辦公室關門,而我和我丈夫在Murry Bergtraum高中上課。我不知道他頭上被打了,直到我回家看到他一半臉都腫了,我馬上就意識到不對勁兒,於是我急忙把他送到Bellevue。他病了差不多有一年。我們曾想要懸賞<br>
找到是開槍的人。警察從未找到是誰幹的。於是,一些人說,“因爲這件事,也許你們應該離開唐人街。”我說,“爲什么我要離開唐人街?我們在這裏生活和工作。無論你去到哪里,你總會---我們從未想過這樣的事會發生。”但很幸運,他恢復了健康,子彈也從他的腦袋裏取出來了。差不多打到腦子裏。的確是很薄的一層皮。全教會的人都在爲他祈禱,很幸運我們一直有信心,他終於渡過了難關,感謝上帝。</p>
<p>問:你認爲唐人街那時安不安全?</p>
<p>傑克遜:那時有許多黑幫。我女兒經歷過。他們不喜歡她走路的方式,一些黑幫的人想在東百老彙打她。還好,她正好走在東百老彙她去的教堂的外面,裏面有人看到,下來幫她。我很不高興。我不高興是因爲這些黑幫的人居然欺負小孩子,我於是叫了警察。還有一次,他們誤以爲我兒子是黑幫成員。我兒子出去買冰激淩,那些黑幫的人把他推到一個過道裏想要打他,還好我兒子很聰明,他叫自己的兄弟,他兄弟就過去幫他。然後他們才知道他們認錯人了。所以,我的孩子從來沒有參與黑幫,因爲我們總是叫他們---他們必須要知道什么是對,什么是錯,這是最重要的事情。我想讓他們成爲好公民。他們不必非常出色,但他們必須要有人性,是好公民。我就這麽一個要求。同時要做個好學生。那是他們的職責。我經常跟他們解釋,“做一名好學生是你的職責。爸爸媽媽會支援你們,出錢供你們讀書的。”在他們很小的時候,我們出了這三件事,我很生氣,但我仍不想離開唐人街。</p>
<p>問:那是什麽時候的事情?</p>
<p>傑克遜:那是七十年代的事。那些黑幫的人過來,甚至那個時候,他們都想來店裏。我從來不想給黑幫什麽東西,<br>
一分錢也不想給。我從來沒有給過一分錢。因爲我想,“如果那些黑幫想爲社區做些有益的事,而不只是拿錢,我不介意爲社區做些貢獻。”我經常跟我的鄰居講,“你用不著給這些黑幫任何東西。”我在任PTA主席的時候,有個學生的家長在Division街開了一家餐館。他說那些黑幫進了他的餐館點了---他們有一大群,一桌人---菜,吃完就走了,沒有付錢。於是,我們就反映給校長,校長就叫了一些便衣。他們下一次去---,第二天他們又來了,坐在一起點了很多菜。他們吃完要走,坐在旁邊的都是警察,他們都被抓了起來。</p>
<p>這就證明你不必給這些黑幫任何東西。因爲那些家長確實很努力工作。爲什么我們要付錢給這些黑幫?</p>
<p>問:他們有沒有打擾你或你的生意?</p>
<p>傑克遜:有一次,他們想---我當時在法院---他們想把所有的客戶都轟走,說,“你們要不要命?要不要命?你們最好走開。”然後,他們想砸電視。但我們安了監視器。我回來的時候看到那些員工都嚇呆了,我當然希望他們能夠受到保護。那些黑幫的人不讓他們明天回來上班,他們想再回來搗亂。我對自己講---我下午回來了---我說,“他們在拍電影嗎?”我是說,我想,“我不相信這是真的。他們是不是在開玩笑?”</p>
<p>於是,我和我丈夫去到警察局。第二天,來了很多便衣,一些呆在外面的汽車裏,一些在辦公室。當黑幫進來的時候,我跟他們說,“我不會給你們任何東西。你要怎麽樣?”我是用中文講的。他們開始站了起來。同時,我穿了防彈衣,以防萬一。穿上防彈衣後我很熱。警察要我給他們做記號的錢,但我沒有給他們。因爲我從不給這些壞傢夥任何東西,<br>
因爲我不相這些---這是原則問題。所以,我什麽也沒有給他們,警察也有些惱火,因爲我沒有把做標記的錢給他們。但當他們離開的時候,他們威脅了一下,警察也聽到了。他們有前一天的錄影,因爲我們把錄影帶給了他們,我們必須要去警察局總部。後來,警察逮捕了他們,因爲警察查明他們在麻塞諸塞殺了人。有一個被逮捕的人後來又想道歉。他讓另外一個人,差不多是個中間人,過來向我們道歉。那些報社和其他的人都在納悶,“你沒事吧?”就這樣,以後就再也沒有事了。</p>
<p>幾年之後,有一次,一位年輕的女士和一個小女孩走進來,送了一盆植物。我以爲是一個朋友送的。於是我問,“這是誰送的?”她們說,“是街上的人送的。”她們一說“是街上的人送的,”我說,“不,這個我不能收。”我是用英文跟她們講的,那個女孩子說,“我們走吧。”</p>
<p>問:他們怕了。</p>
<p>傑克遜:他們想---</p>
<p>問:因爲你講英文---</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的,後來我的鄰居說,“因爲你講英文,所以他們不太打攪你,因爲他們只講中文。”那我就說,“但這裏是美國,你不必被他們嚇著。你必須要爭取自己的權利。”</p>
<p>問:那你認爲爲什么其他人要屈服,給他們保護費?</p>
<p>傑克遜:因爲他們害怕。他們害怕。</p>
<p> 問:因爲語言,還是文化?</p>
<p>傑克遜:語言和文化都有。他們不想惹麻煩,於是就給他們錢。我沒有給過他們一分錢。我很難對付,因爲這是原則問題。我是說,如果有人,如果我的朋友病了或發生其他的意外,我當然會借給他們,給他們錢或者食物。但是,我不會資助這些黑幫。在70年代,這裏的確有很多黑幫,但我想現在很少了,至少我是這樣感覺的。至少他們不再到我的地方來了。別人我不知道,因爲正如我所講,我有劣勢---我不會看中文報紙。也許這是好事,否則我會發瘋的。[笑]</p>
<p>問:請跟我講一下現在的唐人街同70年代相比有什麽不同。</p>
<p>傑克遜:70年代?70年代的時候這裏人很少。自從65年頒佈了那個移民法以來,有更多的中國人來到美國,有更多的移民。因此,現在有更多的新移民,他們大多來自福州。廣東人差不多都搬到新澤西和皇后區去了。所以現在有三個唐人街。以前只有曼哈頓一個。但皇后區主要是臺灣人。現在在曼哈頓唐人街,你很難找到好的廣州餐館,因爲我們吃粵菜已經習慣了。現在有很多福州菜。他們的菜有一些不同。而且,他們講自己的方言,如果你聽不懂,可能會是個問題。他們也講不太流利的國語。</p>
<p>問:你覺得和他們不太親近嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:有時。因爲我聽不懂他們在講什麽。</p>
<p>問:有沒有什麽辦法增進你們之間的交流?在你和他們之間?</p>
<p>傑克遜:如果他們講一點英文或廣州話,<br>
我會努力聽。但我的秘書講國語,因此她跟他們講國語,其他在外面工作的女孩講福州話,所以我要讓他們給我做翻譯。</p>
<p>問:我想問你,你認爲唐人街在什麽地方還需要改進?你認爲唐人街是否有能力容納這些福州人?</p>
<p>傑克遜:在服務和空間方面不行,因爲我認爲我們沒有足夠的住房供給新移民居住。很多住房都很擁擠,他們的房子太擠了,而且這樣住是不合法的。他們有一些做違法的事情。有些人租了一所公寓用來做妓院,這很不好。我一直都不知道,直到警察給我打電話,說他們在監視那棟樓。</p>
<p>問:這是你管理的樓嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:是的。</p>
<p>問:是在什麽地方?</p>
<p>傑克遜:在Rutgers街。我是說,我簡直不敢相信,我查了他們的材料,但他們還是做了一些違法的事情。因此,我只好請了一個律師,來應付檢控官,後來他們搬走了。他們搬到另外一個地方,並且重操舊業,這樣很不好。他們有自己的想法,他們不想遵守這裏的規定。你跟他們講這裏過分擁擠和不合法,但他們仍然租。我知道有些地方他們有的白天租八個小時,有的晚上租八個小時。</p>
<p>問:你是說住房---</p>
<p> 傑克遜:---住房,當然還有衛生,他們的東西都放在過道上,給行人帶來很多不便。唐人街應該是乾淨的,應該和上城一樣乾淨,但現在不是,這是因爲我們沒有任何政治勢力。而這就是我們還需要努力的,希望那些年輕人能夠站出來投票,因爲如果我們不投票,我們就得不到我們需要的服務。</p>
<p>問:除了政治影響之外,唐人街還能做些什么來提高人們的生活質量?</p>
<p>傑克遜:生活質量?除了衛生教育以外,我從一些教育家那裏知道,因爲一些家長工作很忙,或者在外州工作---那些新移民---,由祖父母照看孩子,而這些孩子不聽祖父母的話。我聽說他們在小學學校裏很瘋。我總是認爲所有的孩子應該得到良好的教育,有時因爲父母沒有配合好,他們就經常搗亂。</p>
<p>我在任PTA主席的時候,我總是跟家長們講,我說,“如果你想讓你的孩子在學校學習好,你必須要管他們,檢查他的作業。如果你有問題,就要直接找教師,或者校長。”</p>
<p>問:爲什么父母要到外地去?在唐人街找不到工作嗎?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我想是沒有太多的工作。他們到處走,有的在芝加哥工作,或在外州,他們就把孩子交給祖父母。</p>
<p>問:他們在外地做什么工作?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我想多半是餐館,或是衣廠,服務業。</p>
<p>問:你認爲唐人街會有更多的産業嗎?創建更多的産業,或更多的工作?</p>
<p> 傑克遜:我們失去了很多衣廠。我們曾有五百多家,而現在我想只有零星幾個。很多衣廠都倒閉了,造成唐人街經濟不景氣,因爲在衣廠工作的女工會去餐館吃午餐,或喝茶,所以這些都是損失。正是因爲這個,很多人都失業了。</p>
<p>問:既然你丈夫搞職業介紹,你們是否認爲唐人街會有什麽新興産業來取代制衣或餐飲業?</p>
<p>傑克遜:我不這么認爲。沒有。</p>
<p>問:你還有什麽要補充的嗎?關於你自己,或唐人街等的?</p>
<p>傑克遜:[笑] 我想感謝你採訪我。我希望我的故事或資訊會對其他人有幫助。</p>
<p>問:非常感謝你。</p>
<p>傑克遜:謝謝。</p>
<p>[採訪完畢]</p>
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Jeanne Jackson
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transcription
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interview
-
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
David Chan
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Teri Chan
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-07-12
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
CPC
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
July 13, 2004, I’m interviewing David Chen at CPC,
Chinese-American Planning Council, at 150 Elizabeth Street, New York,
New York, Chinatown. Mr. Chen, can you tell me, what do you do, and
who do you work for?</p>
<p>Chen:
I’m the executive director of the Chinese-American Planning
Council, a human service organization in Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
Which organization?</p>
<p>Chen:
Chinese-American Planning Council.</p>
<p>Q: Can
you give me a description of history about CPC?</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, CPC is a forty-year-old, community-based organization started
back in 1965, trying to help immigrants, and focus on service to
immigrant families. Over the years, we do everything from language
class and entitlement services, translations, to day care center, job
training for adults, senior citizen center, meals on wheels, home
care programs, low-income housing, child welfare---you name it, we do
it.</p>
<p>Q: Why
was it founded?</p>
<p>Chen:
It was started really back in 1965, if folks remember that we had
those Great Society days, this was a response to the Great Society
effort by Lyndon Johnson, that we see the importance of providing
service from the grassroots up, who understand the issue, know the
people, and be most effective to deliver service in the very
culturally competent and relevant ways, and that’s how the
grassroot movement started, really back in the ‘60’s.
</p>
<p>Q: When
it was started in the ‘60s, how many clients did it serve?</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, the community was much smaller. I wasn’t around at that
time. Chinese in New York was only barely eighty thousand, so in
that sense Chinatown was much smaller. The kind of service, as I
understand it, was mainly people coming for language, older people
needing basic services and translation. So in that sense, once you
have a storefront opened up, young people start to congregate, and
then become a one-stop. People come to you for information, so they
know where to move next.
</p>
<p>And
over time, with funding increases, as the movement continues, there
are more opportunities for money, for funding. That’s how we
sort of evolved. At the beginning, it was a small number of people
who dropped in every day, just need us for basic information and
referrals.
</p>
<p>Q: You
mentioned funding, how was it funded before?</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, I understand that the first funding was through a sit-down
protest through a community development agency, a block grant that
lower Manhattan-Chinatown-being in the low-income area in those days.
It’s important that certain resources, government resources be
distributed. Hence, in those days, Chinese were not into demanding
for service. So it takes the pioneer of CPC at that time to realize
that we pay taxes, we are entitled to certain service. So we
certainly play an advocacy role in educating the community today.
We’re no longer Chinese from Taiwan or Hong Kong, overseas, or
foreigner. We exercise our rights. We have our needs. We go get it.
So I think through organizing protests, we got our first grant.</p>
<p>And
then, along the way, the anchoring grant that really helped CPC was
the CETA, Comprehensive Employment Training Act, that provided basic
job training grant. For us, it was tremendously important, because it
provided the first rent check for organization.
You have people coming in. CETA in those days allowed
people with stipends, because you encouraged people who otherwise
were working very low-paying jobs, to retrain them into potential
things so they can move themselves and lift themselves up. So they
provided a stipend. Minimum stipend, lunch money, carfare, so they
can have an alternative. Otherwise, with immigrants, if you don’t
provide a little bit of incentive, why would they want to drop that
low-paying job to come for you, who have nothing? So CETA, in the
early days, was really very compatible to the needs of the community
at that time. To try to encourage people who otherwise would not come
out to seek opportunities. And CPC was a vehicle to help that happen.</p>
<p>Q:
Can you tell me what is CPC’s budget, and where does the
current funding come from?<br><br>Chen: Well, CPC’s budget is
huge now. We started with only eighty-ninety dollars once upon a
time, forty years ago. But we grew, over time, policy changed, the
government’s involvement in providing social service changed,
so hence, we seized those opportunities, and we evolved into a very
huge organization, subsidiary and other groups. We are funded by all
three levels of government. Most of the contracts that we receive
money are from city level, but the city is (funded) by the federal
government anyway. So of the money that appears to be from city but
most likely a combination of resources.
</p>
<p>Q: And
what other combinations? Can you give us a breakdown?<br><br>Chen:
Well, I would say if you really talk about total funding-wise, over
ninety percent of our money is government funded. Of that, direct
city could well be in the seventy-percent, state twenty-percent, but
really it depends on which particular funding or activities. Really
it depends on which source of funding: if directly funded by the
federal, or indirectly funded by the city but from the federal.
</p>
<p>Q:
Can you give me one program that is funded by an agency, and what
does it do?</p>
<p>
Chen: Okay. Childcare, say for example. Childcare money is
mainly through the city, with the state subsidies, eventually the
money may come from the government, but yet it---</p>
<p>(interruption
in tape</p>
<p>Q: A
CPC program that’s funded by a city agency?</p>
<p>Chen:
I would say the biggest contract from the city angle are the youth
and childcare program, which is basically the tax-levy money as well
as federal money or city money through block grants. But childcare
and youth are the most local funding, so I would say policy-wise,
very much effected by the local needs and resources.
</p>
<p>Q: And
who, which, city agencies?</p>
<p>Chen:
City agency would be Agency for Children’s Services, the
Division of Youth and Community Development.
</p>
<p>Q: And
how much is the budget, and how many clients CPC in the childcare
area?<br><br>Chen: In the childcare area, we have after school and
preschool, depends on age group. The total budget is probably in the
ballpark of six and half million dollars. Youth program is a
disparate source, most under-funded and most disconnected in terms
of, I would say, fragmented in terms of sources. But I think that
total agency probably has slightly under a million dollars in youth
programs.</p>
<p>Q:
And what is the estimated number of clients that you served with this
budget?
</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, that you’ve got a catchy number. Is it duplicated count,
or unduplicated count? That’s also with the youth problem
because there are youth programs that we count as on-going case
management type that you deal with individual and on-going
youth development issues. There are also issues that
you would deal with-“play ball”- come in for tutoring,
they walk in, you count one. They walk in twice, you count two. So in
that sense, the irony always is, we would like to see it as
unduplicated count. How many total persons do you help over time?
Rather than every time they walk in, go up, play chess, play
basketball, you count twice? Right? That is the old-fashioned way of
saying how active we are. But we really want to impact, and CPC wants
to move in the direction where we’re impacting in serving the
total person in numerous ways. We’d rather count one, rather
than so count many times but yet you add up the number, it doesn’t
really point to the whole total person.</p>
<p>Q: Let
me ask this question: many people confuse CPC as a government agency.
Can you tell us the difference between the entity of CPC and how it’s
different from a private organization or an agency?</p>
<p>Chen:
We are a private organization doing public service. We receive our
funding, like I mentioned before, ninety-percent plus are from
government sources. But we went through a bidding process. The RFP,
or Request for Proposal, process. Through a competitive process,
through the qualifications, that’s one of the requirements on
the contract. We bid and won the contract competitively, which is
public funds. But we, as a private organization, filed 501(c) 3.</p>
<p>(interruption
in tape)<br><br>
</p>
<p>Chen:
CPC is a private, not-for-profit, 501(c)3, tax-exempt organization.
We are pretty much a private organization doing public service. And
our funds, like ninety percent of our funds came from the government,
through a request for proposal RFP process, which is a competitive
process meeting the needs of the department that issued the funds,
and demonstrating our ability to perform what we promised to do, in
terms of our plan and method and proposals. Basically we receive
funding that way. But our board, of course, is a non-profit,
volunteer board, which are citizens who basically have a public
interest in seeing that resources are put to good use. And basically
we are an organization trying to
maximize whatever funds can do in the best way on
the community level.</p>
<p>Q:
Where do CPC clients come from?<br><br>Chen: Our clients, actually,
come from the people who need us. And they need us based on what our
mission and purpose are. Our mission, basically, points to the fact
that we want to help recent immigrant, Chinese families in
particular, to gain access to services, access to the mainstream, to
emphasize economic self-sufficiency, so they can participate in the
mainstream America. And that’s the main effort that we want to
focus on. Of course, we do it through job training, helping people
find childcare, helping housing, helping immigrants to know where to
go for services and get answers, referrals, including other needs as
they may arise.</p>
<p>Q: Why
would they come to CPC and not elsewhere?<br><br>Chen: Well, once
upon a time we were the only one and the first one, so they all come
to us, and over the years, we develop a trust, we develop reputation,
in the ten blocks of Chinatown. We are the household word when they
need service. But of course, in the meantime, Chinatown has changed.
There are so many more organizations. So much expert service has
developed over time. The increasing irony is through the conduit that
people come to us, we try to refer them to the best service they can
receive.
</p>
<p>Q:
Would you say there is sufficient service in Chinatown right now?
</p>
<p>Chen:
No, far from it. We can say that it’s a good organized effort
in trying to get the service as close to people as possible, as a one
stop that we see ourselves have. But we know that nobody can do it
all. The challenges of new population, diversity of issues, and where
they came from, backgrounds are so different, we can only do so much.
Increasingly, it’s knowing their needs and referring them out.
Do as much as we can, where we can do the best, but refer them to the
best available resources that are out there. So we become a bridge
for people to reach the Chinatown market, and for the community
itself who obviously don’t have enough access
to know enough about the outside, to reach what are the good
opportunities out there.
</p>
<p>Q:
What is missing right now?</p>
<p>Chen:
What’s missing is a lot of information deficit. New People come
in, they just don’t know. They came back with baggage. They
came from the old way, they do things from the old country. Not
realizing the norm, the rules change. And America is a free country,
but unless you know the way to get around, it ain’t yours! So
that’s the part we see that immigrant lack. They have an
American dream, they come here, but if you don’t tell them how
to do it, and help them along the way, it can easily turn into an
American nightmare to many people.</p>
<p>But
it’s not something they should easily give up, but they need to
seek help and get the right source of help to overcome those
obstacles.</p>
<p>Q:
Give me a concrete example of how CPC is helping these people?</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, I think one easy way to do it is job re-training for many
qualified young immigrants. Due to immigration purpose, other than
family re-unification, increasingly we look for people who have
skills to come to the U.S. But a lot of time, young people of
child-rearing age, when they come to America, first they don’t
speak the language, they don’t know---they have no friends.
Immigrants all went through the uprooting experience that they don’t
know where to go. And then the next thing is that if they want to
work, somebody’s got to take care of the kids first. If you
don’t have childcare, you can’t work. And childcare is
expensive. They can’t afford to put kids into childcare. So
chicken and the egg---which one comes first? So unless you take care
of the family, you cannot adjust individual endeavors. But they came
here for the sole reason of building a better life for the family.
They willing to go for sacrifices, but they don’t know where to
start. So that’s where, sometimes, we come in at entry-level to
help them retraining. What they’re good at may not be what they
can find jobs at. But they don’t have avenues to retrain the
potential; they may end up washing dishes, working in
the restaurant. This is what the traditional insulated Chinatown has
been. They’re stuck with whatever people perceive Chinatown to
be.
</p>
<p>Everybody
can wash dishes. Everybody can cook. Any Chinese who know how to eat
can cook. That’s why they’re so many restaurants. But
when you come down to it, they have better potential than the lowest
common denominator. So what we focus on best is trying to find an
area that can help them get into the mainstream job arena, entry
level. We really cannot do extensive training because we don’t
have the funds for it, but we help them to get to entry level
positions. And we hope the work ethics, the attitude that they have,
the ability to work, the basic skills they have, will climb up the
ladder and move out.
</p>
<p>And
we also know too, once they move up in the ladder in the mainstream
world, they will look back and they help the next wave of people to
reach where they have reached. Then we will have truly infiltrated
the mainstream, and bring more people into the door, and provide
access as well as helping people diversify, so you don’t have
to jam all in Chinatown for a limited number of jobs, but indeed the
world is out there for them to conquer. We’re only giving them
help.</p>
<p>Q:
Speaking about employment training, CPC was involved with the 9/11
training. Can you give us some background information on that, and
how CPC got involved with the 9/11 training, and what is the status
now?</p>
<p>Chen:
The issue arrived at 9/11 is really in some ways like déjà
vu. We know it all along. Before 9/11 there is Chinatown. After 9/11
there is still Chinatown. So in a sense, we’ve been doing it
before 9/11. We know the issues. The issues come back and still (in)
Chinatown are jobs, language, access, public policy in the sense
that are the public government people who make policy aware or
listening to our issues? Maybe electoral process, we don’t have
enough votes so somehow never get registered at all. That all changed
temporarily with 9/11. Because 9/11, the whole world was watching.
Even with
the
whole world watching, Chinatown in the early days doesn’t get
noticed at all. They were still looking at downtown, World Trade
Center, immediate area. For the longest time, through the noise that
we raised, we are the neighborhood! The only neighborhood that is
immediately adjacent to the World Trade Center. There is no
neighborhood, just Chinatown effected- the businesses. But yet,
unfortunately because of a lack of city planning, Chinatown was cut
off at Canal Street, south of Canal Street. Across the street, north
of Canal Street, they don’t qualify, but yet they are across
the street. It’s a neighborhood. How can a neighborhood be
cut up just because of boundaries? Arbitrary boundary? Anyone who
lives in the neighborhood knows that Chinatown boundary is way
surpassed north Canal Street for the last twenty years. Once was, but
no longer. It could well reaching Houston, well past Delancy. We know
that.</p>
<p>So in
that sense there are a lot of issues at that time that were based on
old preconceptions about Chinatown, and it takes a lot of noise, a
lot of activities, and a lot of awareness. I think people want to do
good. People know that Chinatown has been shortchanged. Try to catch
up a little bit. And somehow there were improvements, but still
basically not sufficient to deal with the issues that we tackle. And
some of our new issues arrive by 9/11. The old issue that has always
been there, it’s just opening up because people finally start
looking at Chinatown, because of 9/11.</p>
<p>Q:
So how did the 9/11 training come about?</p>
<p>Chen:
I think the Chinatown issue, as you come down to the community, is
jobs, jobs, jobs. Economy. So Chinatown is the engine of growth
because we had traditionally been the garment industry and the
restaurant industry. Restaurant industry is two part: one is Chinese
in Chinatown eating at it. The workers who work in Chinatown need to
eat in restaurants; the other part is tourism. If tourists come in,
we have more business. If tourism doesn’t come in, half the
business is gone. But did Chinatown close? No. Chinatown has the
infrastructure, which is the workers, the people who live there. They
still like to eat. They still use restaurants. They still buy Chinese
groceries. But if half of the industry is gone because the garment
industry is gone, then workers, several thousand
people, don’t eat lunch every day in Chinatown
because they’re not coming to Chinatown, then restaurants
suffer. So Chinatown is very intricately related, interdependent in
many industries.</p>
<p>So
the garment industry, I don’t remember an exact number, but
hundreds of garment industry in Chinatown, ninety percent shut down
in the immediate two weeks afterwards. It takes three months for some
of them to re-open. Some of them were gone, period. This is
continuing, exacerbated, of a trend already we’re developing
because jobs are going overseas. But the surprise came when 9/11
really knocked the wind out of Chinatown’s economic base. So
that ripple effect happened: tourism, jewelry (industry) at that time
too. Jewelry is basically cheaper and better, so a lot of tourists
like to come and shop. When no more tourists are coming, immediately
the repercussions happened.<br><br>Another area of repercussions is
to immigrant families. Immigrant families are basically living on a
cash-based economy. Immediately when the jobs and income suffer, the
cash-base ripples into mortgages, home payment and others. And all
these things become quite interrelated that somehow you’ve got
to start somewhere. So we know job is the one. That’s why we
focus on job training as a key issue. You give them jobs, they get
active, and there is hope. But if you take away jobs, all kind of
social problems happen too. So we know, that’s why we focus on
that. We can’t do everything, but we know we can base on our
strength and job training and try to focus on that area.
</p>
<p>Q: Was
the job training successful from a client’s perspective?<br><br>Chen:
From a client’s perspective, yes. Even though 9/11 from the
response to job training had been city-wide. That’s not only
Chinatown being suffering, there are other people that are effected
in 9/11. So when the funding became available, it was really
city-wide. But the mechanism is really that you have to go outside of
Chinatown and dedicate back to Chinatown to do a number of services.
Which is not too efficient. But that’s the price that
community-based organizations have to pay. But we have been effective
in our experience in talking to students and the employers afterward.
Basically, we know a lot of
displaced garment workers identify with Chinatown. So
when they seek services, they of course have language deficiency,
they have a certain profile. The reason why they are stuck in garment
shops is because of language, they have other reasons they didn’t
go elsewhere. So when they seek services, they’re not going to
city-wide to get service, they still come back to Chinatown.
</p>
<p>And for
job training-wise, we found out that there were people who signed up
for job training Uptown. Since they don’t have the peer
support, the team support, soon enough they drop out, they ended up
coming to us. I don’t know, maybe there was easier lunch here,
but some sort of thing that gives you the support. So when you are
vulnerable, when you feel you’re weak, tendency is to look for
support. So I think CPC or the community is able to provide that kind
of feeling of support. They feel comfortable, and they last longer.
Otherwise, when you trying to get job training, they’re too
many competition in life for them to be distracted on. So, by giving
that support, they stay through the training program, and they get to
the end.</p>
<p>Q:
Is that true of the other 9/11 youth program? Is that why the CPC
program in Chinatown was so much more successful? Chinese people from
elsewhere come to Chinatown for the relief program and not elsewhere?
Is it because of the language barrier, or they find----</p>
<p>Chen:
Absolutely, absolutely. First relieve them, when you give them
resource of helping people, everybody will come. But then you find
out other obstacle. It’s not so easy. “This is easier,
this is harder, this is so difficult, I have to go back three more
times, explain, talk until my tongue, my mouth gets dry, and still
don’t get understood.” So soon enough, when the immediate
urgency got relief a little bit, people start to look for the best
comfort zone. So people go for service wherever it is at that time,
but once the immediate move over, then they start to realize “where
can I get the best service?” So hence, Chinatown start
inundated with those services, which is on the, I won’t say
residual, it’s a secondary wave. The first wave goes to all
kind of resource, because they’re urgent, emergency. Once that
space is over, they immediately come to where they can get the best
service.
Then
Chinatown, like CPC, really got hit by the largest wave, this second
wave, because they know they can get better service.</p>
<p>Q:
What’s your personal evaluation of 9/11 relief program in
Chinatown? From your personal perspective?<br><br>Chen: I think a
lot of good intentions, a lot of lessons to be learned, alot of
frustration. A lot of frustration really points to the fact that
there’s never enough of an infrastructure in Chinatown to
handle those emergencies. And there’s never enough trust by the
mainstream organizations to realize there are capable people in the
organizing community to do the work. Even though, in the end, they
rely on us because they have no access to the people and people don’t
access them. They still come through us. So why the inefficiency
going through conduits, coming back and forth? Why not do one-stop?
That’s the part that we argue, that community-based
organizations is the best emergency treatment, from one-stop
community based. One-stop from functional area---you can be in the
Bronx, specializing in one area, but it’s not convenient in the
eyes of the people receiving the service. So we’re strong
advocate of one-stop service in the neighborhood, for the convenience
of the recipient, not necessarily for the convenience of the funding
or bureaucracy. So that is important to learn in preventing future
disaster. It’s important to address the capacity level for the
community-based organization, to address service hands-on, up-front,
in the front line.
</p>
<p>Q: Has
Chinatown recovered from 9/11 yet?<br><br>Chen: Well, it recovered
in many ways. There are pockets, and pockets. Some recovered really
fast. I myself, actually a month after 9/11, I was walking around
Canal Street when the economy was not so good. I found that I was
dumbfounded. I said that everybody is so busy. So many people in
Chinatown, how come they said that Chinatown’s economy is not
working? I found out that the people were mainly Chinese. They were
shopping in Chinese grocery stores. They come here rain or shine.
They still come here because they need it. But when you really look
at the diversity, Chinatown on the average basis,
Chinatown is more busy on weekends than on a weekday,
right? Where did they come from? The traffic would prevent those
people from coming. So even though you see enough people because
Chinatown is a high-density population area, you always see people,
you always see activity, but are they really engaging the right kind
of economic activity that Chinatown requires to sustain it? Then we
find out there’s a big difference. The suffering for Chinatown
now is still due to the transportation issue, less than air quality
or economy. Economy has re-bounded: tourism has started coming back,
people are spending money. But there are certain industries, certain
trades are terrible when Chinatown can’t park. It’s
exacerbated by, say, Park Row closed off. Convenient-inconvenient,
where did the tourists go? They can’t park the buses anymore,
they got to park elsewhere. They don’t come because of
inconvenience. There are industries that are effected by it. Garment
industry never rebounded because of the general trend is hurting
anyway, but there are pockets that may be better than others. So it
really is sector by sector.</p>
<p>Q: Is
CPC trying to retrain people in new fields to replace a displaced
garment worker or people working in restaurants?<br><br>Chen: Well,
CPC looks at job training as really looking at a community
development model. Job training means you’ve got to find jobs.
If you have no jobs, why train them? It’s no success if you
get people trained, and end up no job. So where are the jobs? We
realize Chinatown’s limited profile garment workers:
middle-aged, fifty-five, forty-five, fifty years old and up, don’t
speak too much language, from a certain setting. With fifteen weeks,
twenty weeks of training, you’re not going to transfer someone
in a very short period of time. But if our goal is place them in
gainful employment, then you’ve got to look at what’s
fitting. We identified a growing trend in the home care industry,
which could be very well fit into the profile for easier transition.
Why? Because home care does not need fluent language. All you do is
fluent in the patient’s home language. You’re sufficient
to be a home attendant, home language.
</p>
<p>We know
that America is getting older. The fastest growing sub sector of a
growing
population,
the Asian community itself, is that of the Asian population. And we
know it’s also cheaper for people to convalesce at home than in
a hospital. So from all angles, it’s much more cost-saving and
suiting for a person to recover in a home-bound situation. So yes,
they need cultural language proficiency to find a worker to fill
those things. It’s not the glamour kind of position, it’s
not exactly high-paid, but we also see them fitting to Chinatown,
because there’s a union involved. Garment industry is UNITE,
Local 23-25, provides health care benefits for the family. We
realized that in New York City, home care industry is unionized by
1199. They have good benefits for the family also. Knowing that
Chinatown garment workers usually have husbands working somewhere in
restaurants and they have no benefits, the kids have no benefits,
buying insurance is expensive these days. If we can channel them into
that (industry), that will help the entire family overall. So by
leveraging a job and being organized with union benefits, you
leverage the entire family into it. If the entire family is leveraged
into it, then they don’t have to get on Child Health Plus.
There’s another source the government has to pay. So we’re
trying to piece the information and the resources together, one stop.
So people get longitudinal help, rather than pieces, fragmented.</p>
<p>Q:
Let’s backtrack a little bit. For the 9/11 training, I’ve
heard it was thirteen weeks, and there was a cash incentive. Do you
think the clients came for the cash incentive or for the training?</p>
<p>Chen:
Why not? They need money. As the unemployment benefits run out, where
you going to get money? They are good workers. Why should you go on
welfare? Chinese are very proud people, they are reluctant to get on
welfare. Why not? Why shouldn’t they get it? The question is,
from the training perspective, like CETA that I mentioned before, if
you can get them an opportunity that they don’t have to worry
about living, and yet get training, that’s the best it can be.
If the money is an incentive for them, they don’t have to
compete with the attention of worrying about feeding the children,
paying rent. They had eased their minds. They get paid and get
training to seek new opportunity because we know the economy will
change. They’ve got to get new skills, get retrained.
</p>
<p>
So, the 9/11 Fund provides a wonderful opportunity. So for
the short period of time, they don’t have to worry about it.
And yet, they’re getting something new.</p>
<p>Q:
But, was that successful? Were you worried that people came to the
training, took the money and then gone?</p>
<p>Chen:
Unfortunately, there are that type too, that they only want the money
because they’re not interested in training. That’s where
the part, that sometime we try to look at ways to use the window of
opportunity, to plant some ideas in them, that they can get by
asking for service, by seeking help, they don’t have to stop
with what we have. We are not always successful in that. But I think
so far we’ve been successful in, for those who just want the
money, when they leave, they’ve got more than money. And that’s
what we’re aiming at. They may only be interested when they
walk in, by the time they get out of the door, we know they’ve
got more than money.</p>
<p>Q:
What do you elaborate on the “more” part?</p>
<p>Chen:
They make friends. They see that there’s organizing in the
community, that people can help people, and we do referrals. And CPC
has other services, other than the job that they come for or the
money they come for. They see that, “Gee, my kids have a
problem” and then there’s resources available to answer
some of the questions that otherwise they don’t know where to
ask.</p>
<p>So
in some way, for us it’s been good too, because we have been
publicizing to people who otherwise we won’t reach to the
people who only care about money, and we don’t have money to
give. Normally they may not come to us, but they have needs. But
through that process, a lot of people get to know us a little bit
more, in terms of we can do. They walk in the door for reason A, but
ending up they find that there’s a whole other cart that they
can pick, a lot of services.
</p>
<p>Q: How
do clients come to CPC?</p>
<p>Chen:
A lot of it is word of mouth, a lot of it is through---I think it’s
basically word of mouth because we have a good track record. People
get services, they talk about it, and then they said, “Where
can I get services, I have this problem….” I say, “Well,
check CPC out,” and then they come to us. Again, we become the
conduit to many services beyond us. We can’t do them all, but
knowing what’s available in the community, and people come to
us. The worst is that they don’t tell anybody. You can’t
force people to get services. It has to be awareness by themselves
that they need to get help. This is what we say, empowering people,
make people aware, open up, then you can help them. If you don’t
tell them the truth, doctors can’t even diagnose the right
problem. You can tell them all kinds of reason, and you won’t
get any help.</p>
<p>Q: How
about the funding for 9/11? What that government funding, or private
fund? And if they were private funds, how did they hear about CPC?</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, it’s an interesting thing. 9/11 is a terrible disaster,
but there was a tremendous good response from the American public. So
there is a lot of money donated, no question asked, as long as you’re
doing 9/11, and we are obviously one of the people on the front line
doing that. We don’t get a lot of money, but we do get more
than we otherwise got. So in the end, I know total funding, the most
we got was focused on job training, that was more by the 9/11 private
fund, not the LMDC (Lower Manhattan Development Corporation), but the
private fund that was conduited through the United Way and Community
Trust. And our focus is mainly through Employment and Training Grant.
They have money for other components of service. But the other
services, we do the small grant. We try to focus them back on job
training and support services to workers. We ended up with small
pocket of money to do with childcare, to impact the family,
scholarships. We try to help people get short-term cash need basis,
buying food in the early days, paying rent because they are
disrupted. So they need immediate cash to address some of the
immediate issues that they had, we did that, too. So it was the
combination of private funds, different private funds.
</p>
<p>
Unfortunately, there is not too much government fund during
that time because the government undergo the budget, economics
problem. The only potential was LMDC, which receives a lot of federal
money, but that is so slow because all eyes are only on the ground
zero. They never really look past downtown. And only in Phase Two
were they talking downtown, but they were talking infrastructure,
renovating parks, building expressway to JFK, to facilitate the
economic development, building a bus station of Fulton Street, so the
rest of the city can access downtown for revival. Building 9/11
Memorial Plaza, all this stuff. It’s great, wonderful stuff to
rebuild New York, but not enough addressed to the particular
Chinatown needs from the government’s 9/11 federal money, as of
yet. That’s the biggest frustration we have in this community.</p>
<p>Q:
What can you do to get the money from LMDC to rebuild Chinatown?</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, right now, most of the money is gone already. There are a few
infrastructure monies left, so we are not giving up. We’re
still going to meetings, raise a lot of issues. If we’ve got to
get crumbs, we want to get some crumbs too, we never want to give
them up. The lingering issue we’re still continues with is
parking. Parking is one that historically strangled with Chinatown.
Chinatown paid a price of traffic congestion, because we are between
two bridges. Every truck that comes through New York City, lower
Manhattan, comes through Holland Tunnel. Every truck tries to
short-cut without paying the toll for Verrazano Bridge, comes from
Brooklyn, Fourth Avenue, and comes through Manhattan Bridge, and
pours into Chinatown, then they go into downtown, there is no bridge.
Battery Tunnel doesn’t have trucks going into Battery Tunnel.
Brooklyn Bridge doesn’t take commercial traffic. So where do
the trucks come from? They all come through Canal Street, they all
pass through Chinatown.
</p>
<p>Chinatown
has paid a price, but when the problem hit, Chinatown don’t get
paid attention in terms of resources to deal with traffic congestion.
Traffic congestion immediately lead to parking issue, they’re
related. Unless the issue gets addressed, the perennial problem that
Chinatown has for the last thirty years will not be addressed. But
this is an issue that, because of 9/11, when you deal with traffic
issues in lower Manhattan, maybe we can rub
some shine off, that maybe someone will finally have
some residual money to address that issue.</p>
<p>The
cultural issue, of course, is the tourist attraction. We want to make
Chinatown an item on the map for out of town tourists. New York
people already know, they come to Chinatown to eat and shop. But
then, we’ve got to reach to the out of town people, who see
Chinatown as a place, a must-stop location. Or, stop by downtown
museum, but come by to Chinatown for meals, and when they come up for
meals, you’ve got to find a place to park, otherwise, say
“Well, I bypass, I skip it, too much, take two hours parking, I
move on”. That’s why one of the comprehensive issues
we’ve got to address.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay, let’s pull back a little bit about all these macro
issues, and focus on you for a minute. Tell me how did you end up
working at CPC, and how long you’ve been working, and how you
started? All these stuff.</p>
<p>Chen:
Oh, sounds like ancient history, sometimes when you think about it.
Well, I’ve been with CPC, let’s see now, this is my
twenty-third year. I started out at CPC as being a tourist, coming to
visit New York and then people told me that, “If you want to
work in Chinatown, there are actually jobs, so in that sense, check
it out”, and find out there’s an opportunity that CPC
was hiring for youth director. So I applied, and they interviewed me
on the phone, and they hired me. So the next thing I know, I’m
driving a moving truck and move all my stuff out here, and I run the
youth program. And from then on---</p>
<p>Q:
---backtrack.
</p>
<p>Chen:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Which youth program and where was it?</p>
<p>Chen:
Project Reach, which is an at-risk prevention program, for at-risk
young people. It was once upon a time known as a gang program. It’s
not really a gang, but it’s a lot of
troubled kids. So in that sense, I find it
challenging, I thought that New York, that if you can beat New York,
you can do it anywhere. So I’m one of those people, I want to
take my chances. And I tell myself, “If things don’t
work, I put on my resume that I traveled for a year, I’m back
to the good old days. Go back to my life”. But one thing lead
to another. It’s a good lesson for other people who want to
check out Chinatown, to realize that once you get into the community,
you find there is so much you can do. It’s very frustrating,
it’s very challenging, and there was a reason why I lasted
twenty-three years.</p>
<p>And
once you get into youth, you realize that you help youth through
family, through family you understand the community, you understand
that unless it’s a better environment, it does take a village
to help a young person. So in that sense, that’s why
eventually, get broader and broader, and becoming executive director
of CPC, and (in charge of) the comprehensive service, and no longer
youth. And I said that, “hen you’re young you talk about
youth, when you’re old, you put on reading glasses, you talk
about senior citizens”. But it’s all the same issue,
giving access to people who need the service.</p>
<p>Q: So
you came to Chinatown in the ‘80s. What was Chinatown like back
then?<br><br>Chen: Chinatown was much smaller. I think it was
smaller in the ‘70s, ’80 was really blossoming, changing.
Access is opening up. Chinatown is no longer Chinatown, Chinese
immigrant population got spread out to Queens. It was spreading in
the ‘70s already, in the ‘80s on the verge of getting to
Brooklyn. Brooklyn hasn’t really appeared that much. It’s
a bedroom community for people who can’t afford Queens. But it
was happening, but not exactly surfaced. But as we know, in the late
‘80s, ’90s, Sunset Park, Avenue U, established community
popped up with streets of stores, business, institutions, banks
opening, hospitals start going there. But Chinatown finally realized
that Chinatown is a cultural center, not a residential, it’s
not a garment shop, it’s not restaurant, it’s not
laundry. I can’t even find laundry anymore. Once upon a time,
you have laundry, right? But where’s the laundry, right?
Chinatown changed. But then the service industry started spreading
out, because where people lived, the needs, the job base, the
opportunities,
shift.
So you see Chinatown being the cultural center, more and more than
just one residential or job, atypical job. But they’re
diversified, diversity tremendously going into Chinatown
neighborhood.</p>
<p>Q:
What was the demographic before the ‘80s, and what was the
demographic after the ‘80s? You said there was a tremendous
change.</p>
<p>Chen:
Tremendous changes. When people saw demographic Asian, Chinese in New
York, grows, is not in Chinatown region, the neighborhoods, it’s
a city-wide population growing, double every ten years. But Chinatown
population, the census figure is still few zip codes, 10012, 002,
whatever, but you put it together, the demographic didn’t
change that much, remained at the same amount of number. But however,
there is a turnover of people. I think I read some statistics that
about two in five Chinese walking on the street in Chinatown arrived
in the last five years. That means this is a transient neighborhood.
There are older timers who stayed, but transient people keep on
churning, keep on coming, keep on coming and going. What you say five
years ago, the guy you are talking to now may not be heard because
it’s not the same guy. Mainstream may tend to say, “It’s
the same Chinese, they’re all the same”, but reality you
know, that diversity also come in wave upon wave of new immigrant,
and how to move on and move up and move out. And maybe we’re so
successful, we try to keep moving out. New people come in because
Chinatown is an incubator for people, they feel secure, there are
roots. But what we do is give them wings so they fly. Hopefully they
come back and help the next wave. In that fact, the demographic in
Chinatown didn’t change, but the turnaround. You know they may
have come through and recycled in different neighborhoods. Chinatown
is an ethnic center, people come back, identify with it, they shop
here. The bank opened seven days here, right? And this is not a
Chinese bank, this is Chase, they’re opened seven days here
because they realize the potential, the market is even bigger. But
when you look at how many people live here, not many people live
here. That’s the dynamics, the unique thing that Chinatown
played, in the sense that it influenced much broader than Chinatown,
but the number of people who live here have remained pretty much the
same throughout the period.</p>
<p>
<br>Q: We’re going to backtrack a little back to your
personal experience. Before coming to New York’s Chinatown,
what led you to want to work in Chinatown?
</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, I guess when I wandered into graduated at that time, I majored
in social work school, in community organizing. And being a community
organizing major, you felt frustrated, the ivory tower doesn’t
do enough, so you start volunteering for work. And then I found the
Chicago Chinatown, Iwent to the University of Chicago at that time,
and I found that the nearest Chinatown was Chicago’s Chinatown.
And Chicago’s Chinatown was mainly two streets, the stores and
neighborhood. It was really like Sunset Park in many ways. And there
are no jobs. You only volunteered. So a few graduate students pooled
our resources together. I remember we got City College to pay us
eight dollars an hour. We all promised to teach four hours in
Chinatown, two hours on Saturday, two on Sunday. And there were eight
of us, and we pooled together, we made enough money to rent a
storefront. We started doing stuff.</p>
<p>But
unfortunately, a student’s a student. When we graduated, we
left. Nothing stayed. So when I graduated social work school, I went
looking for a job. And there was no more playing around, I needed a
job. There was no job. So I landed a job at the mayor’s office
in Chicago at that time as a planner, evaluator for the employment
and training part. And that opened me up to a lot of diversity
issues, of other minority youth, but yet how come there is no Chinese
funding? And the obstacles, you realize how they just don’t
write proposals, you don’t know where the issues are, but there
is no job in Chinatown. So that’s when I mentioned that on
vacation I came to Chinatown New York, and they told me there are
jobs here. And you got to do what you want. So I said check it out,
and I sign up, and that’s how I started, and how I get into it.</p>
<p>But
of course, deep inside, through school days, I recognized the fact
that there are communities to be helped, there are people in the
community that need to be helped. And I understand the needs of
immigrant, when really they have no language capability, or they have
no support, that the less fortunate ones have nowhere to turn. So in
that sense,
there
needs to be some kind of access provided from within that would be
tremendously useful. And that, somehow, my leading from school
awareness that brought up this young person, and tied up to the
opportunity, and then bump my head on the wall in Chinatown, New
York, and then you realize there is so much more that can be done.</p>
<p>Q: You
want to help the community, is that because of your family
background? Is your family a typical immigrant family, or did you
come from a totally different background? Give me a little bit of
information about your background.</p>
<p>Chen: I
came from a pretty different background, in the sense that I would
say we were from the relatively privileged background. Father was an
engineer, middle class. I would say middle class, upper middle class
background. And all middle class families want their Chinese sons and
daughters to be engineers or doctors. So I’m one of those guys
who don’t like chemistry. So take out chemistry, you’re
not into any of these fields, engineer or doctor. So I tried to
straddle between fulfilling a family obligation and my own
inclination.
</p>
<p>So soon
enough, I find out that I’m very interested in social studies
issues. And then, of course, as a typical Chinese, I confronted
issues, social studies don’t make a living. So soon enough I
find out that in social studies, in liberal arts training as
undergraduate, it’s good to be in economics for the foothold
in rational thinking, and business. But I have an educated dad, and
he asked me a question. “In economics, you get a PhD, you
teach. You get a BA, you become a bank cashier. So which one do you
want to be?”</p>
<p>So that
was always one of the questions. The funny part was that, as I get
more into economics, I realize that economics had a macro issue about
monetary economics. And in macro economics, we deal with
infrastructure issue, community. And then I evolve an interest to
want to work for underdeveloped communities, like Third World, IMF
(International Monetary Fund) banking, United Nations type of thing.
But those are wishes, never really had the hope to. But interesting
thing was, opportunity arise, I bump into community, Chinatown, and I
realize that you don’t need to look for a Third World
community elsewhere, there’s a Third World
community right in our back yard. So in that sense, that’s when
I volunteer in Chinatown, and try to bridge and actually end up
bridging in terms of my personal inclination of searching, to land in
something that I thought I can find. My skills and my inclination
incubated for twenty-some years, it becomes part of me.</p>
<p>Q:
Final questions: where were you born, where did you grow up?</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, for a very short period of time, I was in China. I was born in
Shanghai. Few months old, maybe less than a few months old, carried
as a baby by my parents, typical of refugees, went to Hong Kong. Hong
Kong was the upbringing years of mine, went to school there, brought
into the environment until I was in high school. And I spent my last
high school year, twelfth grade, in the U.S. Prior to that, my
teenager (years), getting lost, peers, are all in Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Q: How
did you come to the U.S.A.? What motivated you to come?</p>
<p>Chen:
Well, motivate me---</p>
<p>Q: You
came by yourself?</p>
<p>Chen:
Yes, pretty much so. In those days my parents are very smart,
educated parents. They realize that if I come as young person, young
boy, I would end up signing up for the draft and go to Vietnam. They
don’t want me to be drafted. If I don’t become a
resident and citizen right away, and come as a student first because
everybody got a student deferment. So I came as a student. In the
meantime, my father pretty much is a traveling businessman. So in
essence, we do that, and then once the draft is over, we change the
status so become citizen. So pretty much my background is one of
immigrants. I would say lucky immigrant, have choices, know how to
maneuver the system, so to speak.</p>
<p>Q:
Perfect. We’re done. That’s good.</p>
<p>
<strong>[END
OF INTERVIEW]</strong></p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕2004年7月13日,我現在於華策會訪問陳受權,地點在紐約州紐約市華埠伊利沙白街150號,陳先生,請你告訴我,你的工作,跟誰做工?<br>
<br>
陳﹕我是華策會的行政總監,華策會是華埠的社區服務機構。</p>
<p>問﹕那一個機構?</p>
<p>陳﹕華策會。</p>
<p>問﹕可否描述一下華策會(CPC)的歷史?</p>
<p>陳﹕好,華策會已有40年歷史,是一個以社區為本的組織,在1965年已開展工作,協助新移民,多年來,我們做很多工作,由語言班到各類申請、翻譯、日間托兒所、成人職業訓練、老人中心、輪椅送餐、家庭護理、廉租屋、及兒童福利,應有盡有。</p>
<p>問﹕華策會是何時成立的?</p>
<p>陳﹕在1965年已經成立,如你們熟悉大社會時代,這是林頓.詹森總統的努力成果。我們看見基層工作的重要,以熟悉他們需求及合適他們文化的方式,有效地將服務帶給他們,<br>
於是在六十年代就開展了草根階層運動。</p>
<p>問﹕當在60年代開始時,華策會服務了多少名求助者?</p>
<p>陳﹕雖然當時我不在紐約華埠,但當時的社區比現在小很多,人口只有八千,只是很小的社區。那類服務,依我看來,求助者主要學英文、老人需要的基本服務及翻譯,在這情況下,只要一開門,少年人就始聚集,好像有個落腳地,人們問你問題,他們才知道下一步怎麼辦。</p>
<p>草根運動繼續進行,漸漸地,經費多了,有機會獲得更多金錢撥款,我們像是演進了,起初時,只有少數人疏疏落落地來,他們只需基本資料及轉介。</p>
<p>問﹕你提及經費,那時是如何取得的?</p>
<p>陳﹕我知道那時第一筆經費是社區發展機構發動靜坐示威得來的,那是給收入偏低的下城華埠的一次過贈款,讓某些資源及政府資源分配出去,所以,那時候,華人對服務的要求也不高。華策會領先體驗到華人既然納稅,就應該得到某些服務,所以我們帶頭倡議教育今日的社區,不再標榜是從台灣、香港、海外來的或是外人,要是運用我們的權力,我們有需要爭取服務,所以要組織示威,就得到第一筆贈款。
<br>
與此同時,最主力給予華策會的贈款是CETA--全面職業培訓法案—所提供的基本工作訓練贈款,<br>
對於我們來說極為重要,因為它支付了華策會第一筆租金,讓人們前來,全面職業培訓法案那時給他們津貼,鼓勵他們脫離低收入的工作,提供再培訓,發展他們的潛質,以致他們可以提升自己,該計劃給學員提供少量的津貼、午餐錢、車費,令他們有所選擇。否則,對移民在說,如果你不提供一些獎勵,他們怎會放下原來低收入的工作,前來接受訓練?所以早期的CETA能因應社區的需要,鼓勵一些原本不會前來的人肯來到,華策會是實現這目標的工具。<br>
問﹕你可告訴我華策會現在的預算案是多少?撥款又從何而來?
陳﹕那,華策會現在的預算案龐大,我們在40年前開始時只有89元,但本會發展大了,政策改變了,政府參與社區服務的情況改變了,所以,我們抓緊這個機會,演進成為龐大的機構、分會及其他的組織。我們獲聯邦、州及市三級的撥款,大部份合約的款項來自市府,但市府亦包含聯邦的撥款,所以,看似來自城市的款項其實是從多處合成而來的資源。</p>
<p>問﹕其他的合成是什麼?你可否給我們一個細節?
陳﹕好的,如你結算總款項,超過九成來自政府撥款,其中,直接來自市府的約有70個百分點,州府有20個百分點,視乎個別的經費及活動而定,其實是視乎經費的來源,是直接由聯邦撥出,抑或是透過市府撥出但間接由聯邦撥出。<br>
問﹕你可以給我一個計劃作為例子,是由機構撥款,該計劃又是做什麼的?</p>
<p> 陳﹕好的,舉例說,兒童托兒。托兒經費主要由市府而來,州府又津貼,最後,錢可能由政府而來,但它……</p>
<p>(錄音帶中斷)</p>
<p>問﹕華策會的計劃是由市機構贊助的嗎?</p>
<p>陳﹕我會說從市府的角度,最大的計劃是青少年及托兒計劃,主要是課稅錢、聯邦錢,或一次過贈與的市府錢,但托兒及青少年大部份來自地區撥款,所以我說政策而言,撥款受到地區的需要及資源的影響。</p>
<p>問﹕那些市府機構是什麼?</p>
<p>陳﹕那些市府機構是兒童服務機構、青少年及社區發展部。</p>
<p>問﹕預算案是多少,華策會托兒受惠的兒童又有多少?
陳﹕托兒服務方面,我們有課後補習及幼兒班,視乎年齡而定,總預算大概在650萬。青少年計劃資源短缺,撥款短缺,服務時時因資源分散而中斷,因我想所有機構的青少年計劃預算總和約在一百萬元以下。<br>
問﹕這經費估計可令多少人受惠? </p>
<p>陳﹕你說到一些可伸可縮的數字,數字是否重算或不要重算?也是以青少年問題為例,<br>
因為計算青少年服務是以繼續個案的處理性質及個人及青少年發展事項而算,也有按遊戲的次數來算,例如一少年進來補習一次算一次服務,入來兩次算兩次服務,所以諷刺的是,我們喜歡不重算,只算一次,你一共幫了多少人?但是如果一名青少年進來,下棋又打籃球,我們會算兩次,是不是?這是計算我們服務的舊說法,形容我們的活躍程度,但華策會需要的是路向,是要為不同的人提供不同的服務,發揮影響力,則需要按人計,而不是按人次計,按人次計不能反映所服務的人口數目。</p>
<p>問﹕讓我再問,多少人以為華策會是政府機構,你認為華策會這機構和私人組織或機構有什麼分別?</p>
<p>陳﹕我們是提供公眾服務的私人組織,像我以前所說,我們獲得撥款,90多百分點源自政府,但我們按合約的要求,通過投標步驟(RFP),提交建議書,通過競爭,審查資歷,在競爭中投標,又贏得合約,取得公共經費,我們像私人機構,但我們是遞交501(c)的非牟利機構。</p>
<p>(錄音帶中斷)</p>
<p>陳﹕華策會是私人的非牟利機構,屬於501(c)的免稅組織,我們差不多是從事公共服務的私人機構,我們的經費,百分之90是從政府而來,透過建議的RFP步驟,那是一個競爭激烈的步驟,需要符合各部門撥出款項的要求,在步署、方法及建議上均要展示我們可以成事的能力。基本上,我們這樣取得經費,但我們的董事──當然那是非牟利,志願性質的董事會──基本上是有公眾興趣的公民,<br>
監察我們的款項是否運用得宜。基本上,我們的組織竭盡所能在社區層面將撥款運用得最好。</p>
<p>問﹕華策會的服務對象從那裡來?
陳﹕我們的服務對象,其實是來自需要我們的人,他們亦視乎我們的使命及目的而來,我們的使命基本上指幫助新移民──尤其是華人家庭──獲得服務,和主流人士接觸,強調經濟上自給自足,以致他們能在主流社會生活,這是我們致力的方針。當然,我們透職業訓練、托兒轉介、屋房、移民等服務達成這些目標,讓他們知道到那裡尋求服務,獲得答案、轉介。</p>
<p>問﹕為什麼他們要到華策會而不是到其他機構?
陳﹕很久以前,我們是唯一一個也是第一個,所以他們都來找我們。漸漸地來,我們在華埠的十條街內變成一個聲譽良好,值得信靠的機構。但與此同時,華埠亦發生轉變,機構增多了,所提供的專家服務亦多了。諷刺的是,透過我們的轉介,我們把求助者轉到別的合適機構,讓他們取得最好的服務。</p>
<p>問﹕你認為現在華埠所提供的的服務足夠嗎?</p>
<p>陳﹕沒有,距離目標尚遠呢。我可以說,我們盡努力給人們更體貼的服務,在人們看來是一站式服務,但沒有機構能做所有的事情,新人口的挑戰是,他們的需要不同事項,他們的來自地方不同、背景不同,而我們只能做這麼多。漸漸地,我們明白他們的需要,提供轉介,我們盡量做,但只能作出轉介,<br>
我們成為人們需要及華埠市場之間的橋樑,為本身不知道如何在外面取得服務的社區人士,獲得良好的機會。</p>
<p>問﹕現在缺乏什麼服務?</p>
<p>陳﹕他們缺乏資訊,新人前來,十分無知,拿著行李到來,用老國家的老方法做事,不明白在美國的風俗及法例已改變。美國是一個自由國家,但你也得知道如何獲取權利,否則這權益也不屬於你的,這就是移民所缺乏的。很多人空有美國夢,到來這裡,但如果不知道如何實踐,甚至可能變成美國夢魘。</p>
<p>但他們不應輕易放棄,他們應尋求協助,獲得合適的資源,克服那些障礙。</p>
<p>問﹕華策會如何幫助這些人?請給我一個具體的例子。</p>
<p>陳﹕一個現成的例子,是給有資格的年青移民工作再培訓,由於移民除了家庭團聚外,漸漸多了因技能而來的移民,但很多時,他們同時是年青的父母親,來到美國,未通曉英文,又沒有朋友,他們有被連根拔起的感受,不知道何去何從,但隨即就要工作養活家庭。如沒有托兒服務,他們根本就不能工作,但托兒費用不便宜,他們又沒有足夠的錢將孩子送往托兒,所以魚與熊掌,難以取捨,你要照顧家庭,就不能實踐你的個人理想。但他們來的唯一目的是找尋更好的生活,他們願意犧牲,但不知道如何開始,所以在這個時候,我們給他們工作再培訓,<br>
他們現在所從事的工作未必是他們擅長的,但如果他們沒有接受再培訓的機會,他們最終只能一直洗盤碗,在餐館工作,這是傳統被與世隔絕的華埠人士一直從事的工作,逃不過對別人對華人社區的一貫看法。</p>
<p>每個人都可以洗盤碗,每個人都可以煮菜,任何懂得吃的人都可以煮菜,所以有這麼多餐館,但實際上,他們具有比這些基本技能更多的潛質,最能發揮的方法是讓他們參與主流的工作市場,從基本開始,我們並不能做大量的培訓,因為沒有這麼多的經費。我們可給他們找初階的職位,希望他們學得工作操守,工作態度、工作能力,及基本技巧,使他們會離開原本的工作,爬上工作的階梯。
<br>
我們也知道,如他們能夠到主流世界爬上工作的階梯,回頭時也會幫助下一波移民走他們曾經走過的路,才能真正滲入主流,為更多人打開門路,幫助他們更多樣化,便不需擠在華埠爭做同樣的工作。但他們要自己征服世界,我們只能從旁協助。</p>
<p>問﹕提及職業訓練,華策會也舉辦9/11訓練計劃,你可否告訴我們一些有關背景資料,華策會怎樣參與9/11的訓練,現在的訓練情況又如何?</p>
<p>陳﹕講到9/11,華埠又如後備,我們知道9/11慘劇之前也有華埠,9/11之後仍然有華埠,我在9/11前從事同樣工作,我們明白華埠的需要,華埠的需要事前事後到現在也一樣﹕工作、語言、爭取權益、公眾政策,即是說,要使公職人員制訂政策時聆聽我們的需要。可能選舉過程中,我們沒有足夠的選票,所以有時我們沒有被注意到,但由於9/11,情況有暫時的改變,因為全世界都在注視9/11事件,<br>
但初時華埠都未有獲得注意,他們只注意下城部份,世貿中心及它的周邊,大部份的時間,我們縱使大聲疾呼我們是鄰區,但他們認為鄰區只是連接著世貿中心的高樓大廈,華埠不算鄰區,只是生意受影響而已。而且,不幸地,在城市規劃不周的情況下,他們將受影響的華埠範圍一分為二,以堅尼路為界,堅尼路以南是影響區,在對面街的堅尼路以北就沒有資格了,他們怎麼可以以街為界將一個鄰舍強行分開,而這條界是模稜兩可的。任何住在地區的人老早都知道華埠的範圍在近廿年已超過堅尼路,很早期曾經是界,但早已不是,華埠可遠達曉士頓街,超過地蘭西,我們早就知道。</p>
<p>所以在此情況下,那時很多事項是按著老舊既有的觀念看華埠,我們要發出很大的抗議聲、舉辦很多的活動、作出很多的提醒。我知道人們本來想把事情做好,人們知道華埠被忽略,就要趕緊補償一點點,所以作了一點改善的動作,改善是好,但基本上不足以解決我們所應付的難題,及一些因9/11而來的新問題。舊問題仍然存在,但只是新開始,因為人們因9/11終於注意華埠了。<br>
問﹕所以9/11培訓計劃如何得來的?</p>
<p>陳﹕我認為華埠的問題,如你走到社區找答題,是工作、工作、工作,經濟,華埠仍然是發展的動力,因為傳統的行業是車衣及餐館業。餐館的客源有兩類:一類是在華埠的華人食客,華埠的工人本身需要在餐館吃東西,第二部份是遊客,如遊客前來,就有更多生意,如遊客不來,一半的生意就告吹。但華埠會否倒閉呢,不,因為華埠有基本建設,它就是住在這裡的工人,他們仍然要食,仍然要用這裡的餐館,仍然要買菜,但如因為衣廠已倒閉,令一半的行業倒閉,<br>
則數以千計的工人不能工作,就不能在華埠吃午餐,那餐館行業就大受打擊,所以華埠各行業是息息相關,互相依賴的。<br>
所以在製衣業,我記不起準確數字,華埠起碼有數百間衣廠,百分之九十在9/11後兩星期內關閉了,有些要三星期才重開,有些就此永遠倒閉,這趨勢是繼續原有的弱勢,因為美國的工作本來就流失海外,但9/11突如其來地將華埠的經濟根基動搖,一如漣漪般效應,旅遊業、珠寶業也相應受影響,華埠珠寶價廉物美,所以很多遊客喜歡來購物,當遊客止步時,經濟立時受牽連。
其他受牽連的是移民家庭,移民家庭基本使用是現金為主,當工作及收入受到打擊時,現金的根本通通用作房貸、家用及其他用途上,這些事情是大有牽連的,工作是首要因素。所以我們要集中職業培訓,你給他們工作,他們就會活躍起來,希望就來了﹔相反,你拿走工作,所有的社會問題就來了。我們明白這點,就集中這計劃,不能做所有事,但可以利用固有的優勢及工作培訓,嘗試做好這一點。</p>
<p>問﹕從受助者的角度來看,職業培訓是否成功?
陳﹕從受助者的角度來看,是成功的,就算9/11,全市都有就業訓練的需要,不單止華埠受到損害,其他人也受到9/11的影響,所以當有經費時,其實是給全市的。但真正的動力,是要走出華埠以外,然後回饋到華埠,從事數項服務,這不是很有效率的做法,但這是以社區為本的機構所付出的代價。在其後我們與學生和僱主的對話中明白,證明這經驗行之有效。基本上,<br>
我們認識很多以華埠為家的熟手車衣工人,當他們尋求服務時固然有語言障礙,他們特徵很明顯,因為言語不通,及其他因素而被困在車衣廠,所以當他們要尋求服務時,不去全市尋求服務,仍然到華埠找援手。</p>
<p>對於職業培訓而言,我們發覺有一些人在上城報讀職業培訓,是因為他們沒有同輩或團隊的支援,很快他們就退學,又走回到我們中間,我不明白箇中原因,可能這裡的午餐較容易得到,但這裡他們找到一些支援。當你是容易受傷,軟弱時,你傾向於尋求支持,我認為華策會或社區能給他們支持的感覺,如他們感覺自然,他們會持久一些,否則,他們在嘗試接受職業訓練期間,生活上會有太多競爭令人分心,如獲得支持,他們在訓練中可堅持到底。<br>
問﹕是否其他9/11青少年計劃也一樣道理?是否因為同樣原因,華策會的計劃在華埠得以成功?來自其他地方的華人在尋求援助時要來華埠,而不是去其他地方,是因為語言障礙,或他們發覺……?</p>
<p>陳﹕絕對是,絕對是。首先是叫他們寬心,當你提供的服務可幫助他們,他們就會來,但那時候,你又面對其他障礙了,事情並不容易,「這個容易點,這個難一點,這個很困難,我要反覆向他們再三解釋到口舌都乾了,他們仍然不明白,」所以,當即時緊急需要得到了舒緩時,人們又要求另一些更舒服的享受了。所以人們在不同時候有不同的需要,當急需過了時,他們開始想到﹕「在那裡可找到更佳的服務?」所以,華埠就湧現這些服務,是餘波服務,或是第二波服務。第一波是取得各方面的資源,因為那是緊急及即時的,當那些服務完滿了,他們馬上想到其他地方接受更好服務。<br>
所以,華埠──如華策會──是受到最大沖擊的第二波,因為他們知道他們可以取得更好服務。</p>
<p>問﹕你個人如何評論華埠9/11救災計劃?
陳﹕我認為很多原意的是好的事情也有很多值得反省,令人沮喪的地方,令人沮喪的事情指華埠從來沒有足夠的建設來處理這些緊急事項,也沒有足夠的信心依賴主流組織有能有足夠人才來組織社區,處理這些緊急事項。雖然到最後,他們依賴我們做,因為他們未能自己接觸人群,或人們不會到他們那裡尋求服務,他們仍然來到我們這裡。所以,這些服務要透過我們這中間人,翻來覆去,好像減低了效率。為什麼沒有一站式服務?</p>
<p>這是我們爭論的一環,即是以社區為本的組織可提供最好的緊急服務,是一站式以社區為本的。如果在功能角度是一站式的,你可以在布朗士區專注一種服務,但在接受服務者來說並不方便。所以我們極力主張在社區角度一站式服務,方便受助者,而不是方便撥款或繁文縟節,所以,我們要學習防患未然, 要在以社區為本的組織中衡量能力,到前線送出服務。</p>
<p>問﹕華埠在9/11後,恢復了元氣嗎?
陳﹕是,在很多方面恢復了元氣,但這是分批、分階段的。有些很快恢復過來,其實在9/11後一個月,我在堅尼路散步,當時經濟仍然好不過來,但我驚覺行人仍然熙來攘往,華埠有這麼多人,怎麼還說經濟不好呢?我發現當中主要是中國人,他們到華埠雜貨店購物,風雨不改,他們之所以來,是因為他們有需要,但你如要看民族的多元化,<br>
華埠平時在周末比在周日繁忙,是不是?他們從那裡來呢?交通會妨礙他們來。所以就算你見到行人夠多了,主要是因為華埠本來是人口稠密的地方,你時時看到人與事,但那是否華埠賴以為生的經濟活動呢?然後我們發覺距離事實還差得遠呢。</p>
<p>華埠所受的打擊主要仍然在交通事項、次品質的空氣,經濟問題上。經濟在某方面已恢復﹕遊客開始回來,人們捨得花錢,但有某些行業及貿易活動仍然很差,因為華埠不能泊車,尤是是柏路被關閉,令情況更嚴重。旅客會去方便的地點,或是不方便的地點呢?巴士不能在華埠停泊,總要到別處泊,因為不方便,他們就不會來,有些行業特別受影響。車衣業一蹶不振,因為大勢本來就不利,但也有一些行業比其他的行業好,所以其實是,個別行業際遇不同。</p>
<br>
<p>問﹕華策會是否嘗試為失業的車衣工人或餐館工人提供職業再培訓?<br>
陳﹕這樣的,華策會視職業培訓為社區發展模式,職業培訓意思是說你要找尋工作,如你沒有提供工作,為什麼要訓練他們呢?如訓練了人,最後沒有給他們工作就等於不成功。所以工作在那裡呢?我們知道華埠的車衣工人的剪影是怎樣的?中年,55歲,45歲,55歲或以上,不會說英語,來自背景差不多。透過短短15個星期至20個星期的訓練,你不能將他們轉職,但如我們的目標是要他們在行業賺得更多,你就要看什麼是合適,我們發覺從事護理行業的人漸增,適合這些背景的人轉職,為什麼?因為護理不需要流利的語言,你只需在病人的家中說流利語言,只需說該家庭所講的語言即可。</p>
<p> 我們知道美國人口漸趨老化,在亞裔社區而言,最快增長的人口群是亞裔人口,我們知道家庭護理的費用比醫院護理較便宜,所以從多個角度看,在家庭復康比較省錢及更舒適,所以,是的,他們需要一些熟悉文化及操流利語言的工人來做事,這不是光芒耀眼的工作,也不是非常高薪工作,但他們適合華埠人士,因為那是工會工作,我們明白在紐約市,家庭護理行業屬於1199工會,他們可以給工人全家好福利,我們知道華埠車衣工人的丈夫通常都在餐館工作,沒有什麼福利,孩子也沒有福利,近年買醫療保險又十分昂貴,如我們將他們轉到該行業,可以幫助他們全家,所以在工會提供福利的前提下,全家也獲得福利,如全家都有福利,他們就不需要兒童加健,這是政府需要負擔的資源,所以我們嘗試將資訊及資源合併一起,提供一站或服務,給人們長遠的服務,而不是零散的服務。</p>
<p>問﹕讓我們再回頭講9/11訓練計劃,我聽說是13個星期,又有現金獎勵,你認為受助人前來是因為有現金,抑或因為有訓練?</p>
<p>陳﹕這又有何不可?他們需要錢,當失業金短缺時,你到那裡找到錢?他們是好工人,為什麼要領救濟?這又有何不可?為什麼他們不能領?問題是,從訓練的角度,像我以前提及的CETA,如你給他們機會,讓他們不需擔心生活,又可接受訓練是最好的方法,如錢是一種獎勵,他們就不需擔心子女的食物及租金,安心取得款項,接受訓練,找尋新機會。因為經濟情況可能改變,他們要學得新技巧,接受職業再培訓。<br>
<br>
所以,9/11撥款是一個很好的機會,所以短期內,他們不需要擔心,同時學到一些新事物。</p>
<p>問﹕但計劃算成功嗎?你不擔心人們來你處接受訓練,拿取金錢後,然後走了。</p>
<p>陳﹕是的,不幸地,也有這類人,他們只志在錢,並不志在培訓,有時我們需要以機會的角度來看這個部份,給他們一些選擇,他們只要肯尋找就可獲得服務,不會滿足現狀。雖然我們不是常常成功,但我認為至少到現在是成功的,因為那些一心志在錢的學員,當離開時,他們獲得比金錢更重要的東西,而這正是我們的目的,當他們前來時,他們可能只感到興趣,當他們踏出校門時,我們知道他們獲得的比金錢更重要。</p>
<p>問﹕你所謂的「更重要」指什麼?</p>
<p>陳﹕他們結交了朋友,知道社區有組織,人們可以互相幫忙,及獲得轉介,及華策會有其他服務,不僅是他們需要的工作或金錢,他們明白到一旦「我的孩子有問題」時,可獲得資源,或回答一些他們不知道那裡尋求答案等問題。<br>
所以在某些情況下,對我們是好的,因為我們向人宣傳,如果沒有金錢攻勢他們就不會來,但我們平日沒有錢派,他們可能不會來,但他們其實有需要。透過這課程,很多人知道多了。我們按所能去做,他們走進來是因為原因甲,但最後他們發現另有一籃子的東西可以用,有很多服務。</p>
<p> 問﹕受助者如何到華策會來?</p>
<p>陳﹕很多人是靠口耳相傳前來的,或是其他,我認為基本上是靠口碑,因為我們已經做過很多好事,人們獲得服務,會討論,然後他們說:「我們在那裡可取得服務,我們有這難題……」我就會說:「好吧!到華策會談一談吧!」然後他們就來了。再者,我們成為他們獲得其他服務的導引者。我們不能每事都做,但知道社區裡有什麼,人們又來我們這裡問。他們要自己意識到要來尋求協助,就是我們說的,給他們資訊,讓他們知道,打開門,你就可以幫助他們。如你不將事實告訴他們,醫生也不能正確地斷症,你可以告訴他們所有原因,但他們自己不會得到任何幫助。</p>
<p>問﹕那9/11的經費怎樣了?那是政府撥款,還是私人撥款?他們怎樣聽到有關華策會的事?</p>
<p>陳﹕那是有趣的事情,9/11是恐怖的災難,美國公眾反應很大,所以捐獻很多金錢,不會留難,只要你做9/11工作。我們顯然是前線的人物,雖然沒有得到很多撥款,但總比平時多了一些,所以最後我們獲得的總撥款,最多在於職業培訓,因為很多9/11私人撥款,不來自LMDC(曼哈頓下城發展公司),那些私人撥款是透過國際聯合勸募協會及社區信託會捐出,焦點是職業及訓練贈款,他們有錢作其他的服務,但我們已獲小贈款在其他服務上,我們嘗試回到工作訓練,為工人提供支援服務,我們最後得到小量撥款從事托兒服務、家庭服務及獎學金,我們幫助災民獲得短期現金、在災難初期購買食物、及租金。他們需要應急錢應付需要,所以是各種私人撥款拼合在一起,或不同的私人撥款。</p>
<p> 不幸地,我們沒有很多的政府撥款,因為政府財政短缺及經濟等問題,唯一有可能的撥款是聯邦撥款的LMDC,但來得很慢,因為所有的注意力都集中在零點,只在第二階段中討論到下城,但他們講的是基本建設、翻新公園、興建機場快線、協助經濟拓展、興建富頓街巴士站令人們從市內其他地方到來、復興下城,興建9/11紀念廣場等設施,這是重建紐約極好的的事項,但政府的9/11聯邦撥款沒有足夠地回應華埠的特殊需要,那是令社區最沮喪的事。<br>
問﹕如要拿到LMDC重建華埠的款項,要做些什麼呢?</p>
<p>陳﹕現在,大部份的錢已沒有了,只剩下一點點建設費,我們沒有放棄,仍然去開會,提出很多問題,就算麵包碎塊,我們亦想拿,不想放棄。現時仍在拖延的項目是泊車,泊車問題一直干擾著華埠,華埠因為交通阻塞付出很大的代價,因為我們位在兩橋之間,每天經過紐約市、曼哈頓下城、荷蘭隧道的卡車,因為不付華維山路橋費而繞路走,從布碌崙、四大道及曼哈頓橋,都湧來華埠走到下城,這裡沒有橋,炮台隧道不能走卡車,布碌崙又不能過商用車,所以卡車那裡走?他們都經堅尼路,全經過華埠。</p>
<p>華埠要付出代價,但當問題發生時,華埠卻沒有獲得注意,沒有獲得足夠的資源去解決交通阻塞的問題。交通阻塞連帶引起泊車問題,兩者息息相關,除非問題得以關注,這難題困擾華埠已30年,<br>
但這問題可能因為9/11而獲得關注,可能會有一些餘錢解決部份問題。<br>
文化的議題當然是吸引遊客,我們想令華埠成為遊客打開地圖之必遊景點,紐約市民已知道來華埠享用美食及購物,但我們仍要告知紐約市以外人士,令他們覺得華埠是一個必到之地,或遊下城博物院時要到華埠用餐,當他們前來用餐時,可得找泊車位,否則你會說﹕「好了,不要去了,兩小時泊車費太貴了,繼續開車走吧!」所以這是急待應付的全面問題。</p>
<p>問﹕好了,我們暫且放下大問題不談,集中講一講你自己,你為什麼會在華策會工作?你工作了多久?如何開始?這等問題。</p>
<p>陳﹕噢!當回想時,好像是很久以前的事了,讓我看看,我在華策會已23年,我開始到華策會是遊客,遊覽紐約,然後有人告訴我﹕「如你想在華埠工作,其實那裡也有工作,你可查考一下,」那我發現華策會真的正聘請青少年部主任,所以我就申請,他們在電話中面談我,就聘請了我。以後,我就駕駛搬屋卡車,將我的家當運過來,負責青少年計劃,從那時起,……。</p>
<p>問﹕──我們回來講到,</p>
<p>陳﹕是什麼?</p>
<p>問﹕那一個青少年計劃?在那裡?</p>
<p> 陳﹕外展計劃,那是一個為邊緣青少年而設防止青少年出軌的計劃,以前叫幫派計劃,但不真是幫派,只是很多問題青年,所以我覺得有挑戰,我認為如你能克服紐約,你在那裡都能做,我就是有此想法,想試試看,告訴自己﹕「如辦不到,就拿起我的履歷又走一年,再返回以前的好日子,追尋自己的生活。」但事情一件接著一件,對一個要探討華埠的人是一個好課程,才明白一旦你到了社區,你發覺你可也做很多事,這是令人沮喪,但有挑戰性的事情。我在這裡工作了23年是有原因的。<br>
一旦你從事青少年工作,你明白你可以透過家庭幫助青少年,又透過家庭明白社區,你明白到要為青少年提供良好的環境,甚至要動員整條村才能栽培一個年青人,所以,到最後,漸漸地,我成為華策會的行政總監,負責全盤服務,不再限於青少年。我常說﹕「年青時,你講青少年,年紀大時,你戴上老花眼睛,討論年長者。」但兩者都處理同樣問題,你給需要的人提供服務。</p>
<p>問﹕你在80年代來到華埠,華埠當時是怎樣的?
陳﹕當時華埠很小,我想在70年代更小,80年代迅速發展,服務越來越多,華埠再不是限於華埠,華人移民人口在70年代已開始擴展到皇后區, 80年代開始擴展到布碌崙區,布碌崙本來並不顯眼,那是人們不能負擔皇后區所入住的地方,默默地發生,但不立即浮現起來,但我們知道,在80年代尾、90年代的日落公園及U大道華人社區開始顯現,一條條街的店舖、商業、機構、銀行紛紛開業,醫院開始服務華人,但人們仍然以華埠為文化中心,而不是住宅區、不是車衣廠區、不是餐館區,不是洗衣店區,現在幾乎找不到洗衣店,以前我們有洗衣店,是不是?現在洗衣店那裡去了?華埠轉變了,但那時服務行業開始擴展,<br>
因為人們居住那裡,就需要服務,但工作、機會都轉移了,所以你看華埠是文化中心,不單是居住區或多種非主流職業,而人口多樣化,這些多樣化很快向華埠的鄰舍迅速擴展。</p>
<p>問﹕在80年代前的人口特徵是什麼?在80年代後人口又如何?你剛才說有很大的轉變。</p>
<p>陳﹕轉變很大,當人們看見紐約的華裔人口增多,那不限於華埠及鄰近地區,而是整個城市的華人人口增長了,十年翻一翻,但華埠的人口在人口普查中仍然是幾個郵區號碼,10013及10002,或之類,但你將他們放在一起時,人口特徵不會轉變太多,數字仍然是一樣,但人口流轉很大,我記得我讀過一些統計,在華埠活動的華人,五份之二在近五年移民來美,意思是說,華埠是讓人過渡的鄰舍,也有一些人留下長居,但過渡的人不斷搬入搬出,五年前你在華埠一個地點談過話的人,五年後未必在華埠,主流人士或者會說﹕「他們是同一個中國人,他們長得一個樣子。」但事實你知道,新移民一波又一波,變得多樣化,不斷向上,搬入又搬出,新移民搬進來因為華埠是培養人的地方,他們覺得安全,有根,我們做的是給他們羽翼讓他們起飛,希望他們歸來時可協助下一波移民。其實華埠的人口組成沒有改變,但人口轉動大,你知道他們經過了,又搬到別的鄰舍居住,華埠是一個族群中心,人們回來、認同及在這裡購物,這裡的銀行一星期營業七天,是不是?但這不是華人銀行,那是大通銀行,他們也要七天營業,因為他們認識到那潛質,拓大市場。但當你要知道有多少人住在這裡,才知道人數不算多,這活力是華埠所獨有的,因為他的影響力遠超過華埠本身,<br>
但居住人口數字在多年幾乎一樣。<br>
問﹕我們且回去你的個人經驗,你來紐約華埠前,是什麼東西引領你來華埠?</p>
<p>陳﹕那時我畢業,主修社會工作及組織社區,作為一個專修社區組織人,我覺得沮喪,象牙塔並不足夠,所以我要義務工作,然後我發現芝加哥華埠,那時我就讀芝加哥大學,最近的華埠就是芝加哥華埠,芝加哥華埠主要是兩條街,一些店舖及鄰舍,在很多方面真的很像日落公園。我沒有找到工作,只能義務工作,所以幾個研究生將資源集合在一起,我記得我們得到市立大學給我們八元時薪,在華埠教書四小時,星期六兩小時,星期日兩小時,我們共八人湊錢租一個舖面,開始工作。<br>
但不幸地,學生終歸是學生,畢業後要四散,沒有留下什麼。所以當我社會工作畢業後,便開始找工作,不再玩了,我需要真正工作,華埠沒有工作,所以我在市長辦公室找到一份就業培訓的策劃及估量的工作,他們讓我接觸多樣化的事務及很多少數民族的青少年,但仍然沒有為華人而設的撥款,障礙是,你不是寫計劃書的人,你不知道問題在那裡,而且那裡的華埠仍然沒有工作機會。以致我在紐約華埠度假時提及這事,他們告訴我紐約華埠有工作,你就要做你想做的事了,所以我說要看看,然後就出任。這是我如何開始,及我如何入行的經過。<br>
但是當然,在求學時,我心內明白到社區人士需要幫助,<br>
明白移民的需要,他們真的沒有語言的能力,沒有支援,較為不幸的一群不知道在那裡尋求協助,所以需要一些從裡面而來的有力協助,學校的栽培引導我這年青人,同時給我機會遇上紐約華埠,然後我明白有很多事情可以做。</p>
<p>問﹕你想幫助社區,是否因為你的家庭背景?你是家庭是否一個典型的移民家庭?或你來自一個完全不同的背景?請告訴我一些你背景的資料。</p>
<p>陳﹕我來自很不同的背景,可以說我來自較優勢的背景,爸爸是工程師,中產,我會說是中產,中上背景,所有華裔中產家庭都希望子女成為工程師或醫生,但我是那些不喜歡化學的人,如果不唸化學,不能有太多職業選擇,不能當工程師或醫生,所以我在實踐家人寄望及實現自己的興趣兩者之間猶豫不決。</p>
<p>不久,我發現對社會科學有濃厚興趣,然後,當然,作為典型華人,我得考慮,從事社會科學不能生活,後來,我在大學唸社會科學及文科,又唸經濟培養理性及商業頭腦。爸爸是一個受過高等教育的人,他問我﹕「唸經濟科如得博士學位,你出來教書﹔如有學士學位,你到銀行當出納員,你想做那一個?」</p>
<p>我時時心存這問題,有趣的是,我越多讀經濟學,就明白到經濟有宏觀的金融,在宏觀經濟,我們處理基本建設──社區,然後我對未開發的社區產生興趣,如第三世界,世界銀行、聯合國之類,<br>
但那是不能實現的願望。有趣的是,機會來了,我撞入華埠的社區,我明白到我不需要看見別處的第三世界社區,在我家的後園就有一個第三世界社區,所以我在華埠當義工,嘗試替人搭橋舖路,最後替了自己的興趣搭了橋,在自己可發揮的地方著了陸,我的技考及興趣已磨練了廿多年,成為我的一部份。</p>
<p>問﹕最後一個問題,你在那裡出生?在那裡成長?</p>
<p>陳﹕非常小時候,我在中國,在上海出生,幾個月大時,我的爸媽抱了我到香港。香港是我的成長地,我在香港讀書,直到高中,到美國時讀十二年級,高中的最後一年。在這以前,我的青少年期、失落期、朋輩等,都在香港。</p>
<p>問﹕你如何到美國?有什麼驅動你到來?</p>
<p>陳﹕嗯,驅動力。</p>
<p>問﹕你自己來的?</p>
<p>陳﹕是的,大概是。那時,我的爸媽是非常聰明的、高教育水平的人,他們明白我來時如果是年青小夥子,就要入伍到越南打仗,他們不想我服役,如我不馬上成為永久居民或公民,而先當學生讀書,就可以延遲服役,所以我以學生身份來,同時,我爸爸因商務可以時時來美。所以我先留學,當徵役期完畢,我就轉換身份成為公民,所以我的背景是從移民開始,我認為我是較幸運的移民,有權選擇,也可以說,懂得如何操縱這制度。</p>
<p>問﹕棒極了,錄音完畢,很好。</p>
<p>[訪問完畢]</p>
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David Chan
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transcription
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interview
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Alice Young
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Val Wang
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-07-01
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
middle school principal
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
We’re at PS 131 with Alice Young. So, can you first introduce
yourself and say your name and---say your name.</p>
<p>Young:
Okay. My name is Alice Young.
</p>
<p>Q:
And, can you talk a little bit about where you were born and where
you grew up, where you spent your first few years?</p>
<p>Young:
Sure. Well, actually, I was born in Manhattan because, that was, in
Manhattan there was only, the only Chinese obstetrician-gynecologist,
so I was born on 15<sup>th</sup> Street, but we lived in Brooklyn,
and I grew up in Brooklyn, I lived in Brooklyn all my life. And I
went to school there, elementary school, all the way through college.
I just stayed---I’m really a Brooklyn girl. (laughs)</p>
<p>Q:
So where in Brooklyn were you?
</p>
<p>Young:
Actually, I grew up in a neighborhood called Gravesend, and my
father owned a laundry that picked up laundry from all the Chinese
hand laundries, so he had a factory where they pressed and ironed and
folded shirts, and he had a 24-hour crew that worked, and we lived,
you know, some of my friends who lived behind the hand laundry, we
lived on top of the laundry, with all the machines running, all the
presses and a lot of noise. So that’s where I grew up, until I
got married.</p>
<p>Q:
And what was that neighborhood like?<br><br>Young: Well, it’s
called Gravesend, and it’s an Italian neighborhood. Actually, I
lived on MacDonald Avenue, and that was where the F train runs, and
so it was an elevated train with
a lot of noise. And I
remember when I was in college someone had asked me for my phone
number and I gave the number to someone, and when he called me, he
thought I gave him like a phony number that was in a subway station.
(laughs)</p>
<p>So
I lived there until I was twenty-three.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay, so do you know much about your parents’ past and how
they came to the States?</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, sure, I know a lot. Actually, when, my father came to this
country when he was thirteen with his uncle and with his father, and
at that time they let only men come to this country, and my father’s
uncle, which I guess his father’s brother owned a laundry up in
Scarsdale, so they settled there for a little bit, and then they,
because they just lacked the connection to Chinese people, they
decided to come to New York City, to Chinatown, and so in Chinatown
there was, there’s always an apartment or an association, so
there was a young apartment for all people with a young family. So he
came and he lived there, and it was right on Bayard Street.</p>
<p>And
then my grandfather opened up a laundry in Brooklyn on King’s
Highway. And I think my father always told us that he liked to be
away from the Chinese people, so he always just to move out of
Chinatown. So that’s why we always stayed in Brooklyn and we
just never lived there. So they opened up a laundry there---he said
he was about fifteen. And that’s where they stayed, and my
grandfather, you know, the whole concept was they come here, they
make money and they save money, and they send money back to China,
and then one day they would go back to China.</p>
<p>So,
my grandfather got sick here, and he wanted to go back home, because
that’s where his homeland was, so he went back, and then my
father and my uncle stayed here, and it was funny because then my
father approached the age of, I guess, eighteen, and they told him he
had to go back and get married. So then he went back, and he got
married, and like, my oldest brother was born, and then he left them
there, and his---came back here, he worked, and about, like, maybe
eight years later he went back to China, and that’s when my
next
brother was born. (laughs)</p>
<p>So
every time he went back and forth, he had a child. And then in 1949,
when the communists came, were starting to come into China and go
into Nanking, which is the southern capital, he decided, he went to
see a lawyer and he decided that he would bring his family, my
brothers and my mom to America. And that, the idea of saving money
and living in China forever, it just---that was the end of it. So he
knew that everyone should come here, ‘cause he just didn’t
want to be in China anymore. So that’s how, that’s why,
that’s when they came here.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay. Was it hard for them to come over at that point? In terms of
passports, and---</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, well, you know, he had to get, well, actually, you know,
because he had a laundry in a very kind of, I guess it was a
well-to-do area, and so it was doctors and lawyers were his
customers, and he had a lawyer who brought shirts into him regularly,
and he started asking him, you know, “How do I bring my family
here, I have family---“ so he took all his papers, and, you
know, gave it to the lawyer and he did what he needed to do. So in
1949 my father went back to China, and then he just started all the
paperwork to bring his family here. And so the joke in my family is,
because I was born in 1950, was that I was made in Hong Kong, because
when my mother came here in May of 1950, she was pregnant, and it was
with me, so I was like the first child, you know, their child born
here.</p>
<p>Q:
So how many of, total children were there?<br><br>Young: There are
five of us. I have three brothers, and they’re older than I am,
and they were all born in, two in China, one in Hong Kong. And then
when we came here, when they came here, I was born. And then I have a
younger sister.
</p>
<p>Q:
And so you all five grew up in then, in Gravesend? In
Brooklyn?<br><br>Young: Yeah, in Brooklyn, but don’t forget
there was such a big age span between my
oldest brother, I
mean, he could probably be my, almost my father. So he was, when he
came here he was already married.
</p>
<p>Q:
Okay, so he came with his wife?</p>
<p>Young:
Well, they came first without his wife, and then the immigration
laws were such that he came first, and then he applied for his wife
to come here, but they were already married in China.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay, so at that point, so what was it like growing up in the
fifties? You said it was a very Italian neighborhood?</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, it was a very Italian neighborhood. My sister and I were the
only Chinese family, Chinese children in the entire school. It was, I
don’t know, I don’t remember much of my elementary school
years. It’s such a---my parents were very strict, and, you
know, I always had to take care of my sister, who’s just
thirteen months younger than I am. And the mentality was like, you
don’t need any friends, and you don’t go anywhere after
school, and you just come back home and you do your homework, and you
do, you know---so it was just a lot of going to school, coming home,
going to school, coming home. And then, my father was, I mean, I
don’t know. Now I can understand why he did what he did, but we
didn’t have a TV at home. He insisted that we speak Chinese at
home, and no English, and there wasn’t any, there wasn’t
games, we always did homework, we wrote, and then he had the laundry,
so after we finished our homework we had to go downstairs and help
him in the laundry.</p>
<p>So
his, I guess his philosophy was that he always, my mother used to
say, “Well, how are they ever going to learn English, and they
don’t know anything.” And so he says, “Don’t
be afraid that we don’t learn English.” He was just so
afraid that we would lose the Chinese, and the culture and
everything, so, you know, he just kept, at home, everything was
Chinese, and we weren’t allowed to speak English at all. And I
remember getting, in the third grade we really bugged my parents, and
finally he said we could have a TV. So I remember one
day,
I was in the third grade, and he came and picked us up after school,
he drove us to Sears, and we bought, like, our first television. And
then when it was delivered, I still remember it was on a Friday
afternoon, and we just, like, we had a living room, but it wasn’t
you know, we had a couch and a table. And so we had a spot for the
TV, and we took two, like, I don’t know, folding chairs. And my
sister and I just sat there, and they delivered the TV, we plugged it
in, and it was on Channel 7, and American Bandstand was on, and I
really didn’t even know what it, how that TV functioned, so we
just turned it on. And I didn’t even know that we could change
it to different channels and stuff, so every day we sat and we
watched American Bandstand, and I would go to school and tell my
friends that you know, I have a TV, and they would say, “Oh
good, did you see this and that?” and you know, all these
shows, and I said, “What are you talking about?” So then
we decided to play around with the knobs and we discovered that, you
know, we could change it and watch something else. And when I think
back, I say, “Boy, we were really sheltered..”</p>
<p>Q:
You didn’t have any friends?</p>
<p>Young:
Not really. I mean, you know, my parents didn’t let us go to
each others’ homes, and certainly they didn’t let anyone
come into our house, and they were always working downstairs and we
were upstairs, and we would watch TV or read or, you know, fight.
(laughs) My sister and I. And there were times, like, even at school,
when we had to do, I remember we had to do committee reports, and
plus we, after school, where we have to come together and do a
research project. And I had to really, really convince my father
that it was legit, you know, that we were---</p>
<p>And
then he would drive us to their homes and pick us up, and we did do
that, you know.</p>
<p>Q:
For school.</p>
<p>Young:
For school. Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
So what dialect of Chinese do you speak?<br>
<br>Young: We
speak Cantonese.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay. And where was your family from?<br><br>Young: Well, they’re
from, at that time we call it Canton, but now it’s Guangzhou.
And it’s a southern province, and I guess, provincial, the
province would be Hoksan. So we spoke Hoksanese, I guess, you know.
</p>
<p>And
every Sunday we went to Chinese school, so that was a real ritual.
</p>
<p>Q:
Where was that?</p>
<p>Young:
In Chinatown. And, you know, it’s not like today where you
could get groceries and things like that, and Chinese vegetables in
Brooklyn, so every Sunday was a trip we, like, ate lunch, after lunch
we came out, we had a one o’clock class, Chinese school from
one o’clock to three, and then my parents picked us up, and
there was an arcade, he would give us a quarter. In those days, a
quarter took us a long way. So we went to the arcades, and then my
mother loved the Chinese opera, you know, the Chinese movies. So we
would go to that, and then we’d eat dinner, and then we’d
get home like around eight o’clock. So that was like, our
Sunday.</p>
<p>Q:
Every Sunday growing up.</p>
<p>Young:
Every Sunday, yeah, until we, I guess until we got into Junior High
School, we would do that, ‘cause that’s when I stopped
going to Chinese school.</p>
<p>Q:
So did you have much contact with the Chinese community other
than----</p>
<p>Young:
No, not really. You know, just with our families, and we didn’t
do much in Chinatown, except go see movies and go to Chinese school,
and that was it. And eat dinner.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you have extended family here? You said your dad’s uncle
was here. Did they have family also here?<br><br>Young: Well,
actually yeah, well, they all went back to China and they passed
away, but my father had his brother here, so it was my uncle and my
aunt, and cousins, and it was quite a, you know, extended family, but
I think smaller based on other people’s families.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you see them a lot?<br><br>Young: We would see each other on
Sundays, when we’d go to Chinatown, there was a, 22 Mott Street
was a grocery store, and our whole family, most of us did live in
Brooklyn, but that’s where we would do our shopping, and you
know, my father would drive, and he’d pick up like tons of
groceries, because the laundry that he ran, there were eight hour
shifts, and most Chinese establishments always serve lunch and
dinner, so my mother cooked for like, fifty people, and made lunch,
and made dinner, and then the next shift comes, would come in, and
then they’d hire someone who would cook, like, make a meal,
around, like, two in the morning that was served. So she was like
constantly cooking these huge meals and it was like about fifty
people eating with us, in the laundry.</p>
<p>Q:
So, how big was the laundry?</p>
<p>Young:
It was huge. It was huge. It was like, maybe, it was bigger than
this entire library. Because there were presses, five pressing
machines, and then there was about thirteen ironing, fourteen ironing
tables, and men would iron and fold, and we would box up all the
shirts and then send it out to the laundry, the local laundries.</p>
<p>Q:
So where were these workers all from?</p>
<p>Young:
Mostly from Chinatown. And they would take the train, the subway.
They worked very long hours, I mean, the shift was from eight o’clock
to eight o’clock. And then the night
shift was from
eight in the evening until eight the next morning. And most of the
times it was six days a week, you know. We worked hard.</p>
<p>Q:
You said your dad sort of wanted to stay apart from Chinatown. Did
he ever tell you why?</p>
<p>Young:
Well, I think he wanted us to just grow up away from, I don’t
know, he just felt that he didn’t want us to be under the
influence of, I don’t know, there weren’t many gangs like
there were in the ‘70s and ‘80s, but he just felt, I
don’t know why, he said, he used to say this funny expression.
He says when the Chinese people move into the neighborhood, it’s
time to move out. (laughs) I don’t know why. He just, I don’t
know, he just felt that he wanted us, although we spoke English at
home, he wanted us to grow up in a more residential, not like a place
filled with, you know, restaurants and small apartments. We had an
apartment that was pretty spread out, and we each had a room, so it
was nice.</p>
<p>Q:
So, I guess, fast-forwarding up till you went to college.</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, I went to college. I went to college at Brooklyn College, and
you know, my father would deliver shirts to all these laundries, and
he always, always, wherever he went, I don’t know what it was,
but he would always drive by Brooklyn College, this huge campus with
the clock and the steeple, and he would say to me, and my sister, and
he would say, “You know, this is where you’re going to go
to college. This is a college.” And it just, in the quadrangle,
I could see it, down Bedford Avenue into the College. And so somehow
whenever he would deliver his shirts he wound up on Bedford Avenue by
Brooklyn College. And I guess it was like so ingrained in us, that
when we, when I applied to go to college, I actually didn’t
apply to many colleges. And he would never let us go away. And we
didn’t even think about it.</p>
<p>So
I went to college. Went to Brooklyn College. And then, when I began
to drive and I learned how to drive, I said, “Now, how did he
get here?” Like, I didn’t even know. It looked so pretty.
It didn’t look like it was in the middle of Brooklyn. So, and I
went with my
sister, so of course my sister went to
Brooklyn College also. So it was kind of like, the expectation is we
would go to college, and I guess I was lucky to have a father who
would allow us to go to college, ‘cause a lot of my friends in
high school---and as I got older I kind of developed friends with,
you know, some of my friends became, or they were customers of my
fathers. So I started having, like, a circle of Chinese friends,
basically from the laundries that I would go with my father to
collect shirts. And they were our age, and we somehow or other got
together. And a lot of the girls didn’t go to college, because
the parents felt that they were saving money for their sons, or that
girls just shouldn’t go to college. So from my high school
friends who were Chinese, I think my sister and I were one of the few
kids who went to college.</p>
<p>Q:
Why do you think your dad was different in that way?<br><br>Young:
Because he really believed in education. He really said that you have
to go to school and you have to go to college, whether you were a boy
or a girl. And I think he always instilled in us that we should do
well in school, and that every generation should do better, and that
no one should be working like a horse or a cow like he did for
fifteen hours a day. So we just always, just always, like did well,
and we did the best we could. But his whole, the way he brought us up
was that we had to go to school, this is America, this is why we’re
here. You know, and we did, we did, we worked hard, and it was like,
difficult, because they couldn’t help us, and they didn’t
speak much English, and I remember we had to do a report, and we
needed an encyclopedia, and he wouldn’t let us go to the
library, right? And he had no idea---I couldn’t even explain to
him what an encyclopedia was. I just told him it was a book, we need
this, we need these books, we have to get to the library. And so his
thing was, “I’ll buy it for it. So, where do we go?”
So we went into a bookstore, and we asked them for, we asked the guy
in the bookstore for a set of encyclopedia, he looked at us like,
“You’re nuts. You can’t buy it here.” So this
one customer walked in, and he goes, “You know what, I have a
whole set of the Book of Knowledge, but I’m missing ‘L.’
Do you want to buy it?” So my father bought it for us. And they
were like, torn apart, and the threads were hanging out of the spine.
So he did buy it for us, so we used that, the Book of Knowledge.</p>
<p>
And then, the lawyer who helped bring my whole family over, he did
a lot, he wrote checks for my father. He did all the bills. So every
Saturday we would go to see him and bring pastries and bring cakes
and bring all the newspapers, and my father paid for it. Just gave it
to him, like it was a Saturday ritual. And we would get his laundry,
and then do his laundry, bring it back all pressed and folded and
everything. And so we asked him, and he goes, “Oh, you want, is
that what you want?” And I said, “Yes.” So then my
father spent like three hundred dollars. In those days, it was a lot
of money. And he bought the whole World Book Encyclopedia, with the
bookshelf, with everything single year we additioned that, you know?
So I think when we were in the fifth grade, we had our own set of
encyclopedia.</p>
<p>So,
he tried to get us everything we wanted. It was hard, because he
didn’t know any English. I remember I needed a stapler. And I
really didn’t know, like, where to get it. So he drove from
Brooklyn all the way to Chinatown to Waku bookstore on Mott Street.
And we got this Swingline stapler. I still have it. You know, so, it
was kind of interesting, growing up. Frustrating.</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah?</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
So by the, so you had some friends, then, starting in high school.</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, we had some friends starting in high school, then when we went
into college, you know, we kind of went our own way, a lot of the
girls didn’t want to go to college, and then in college, I
developed this circle of friends, but basically they were Chinese. I
joined the Chinese club. And then the year after that, my sister
came. So we did, and then we kind of just hung out, and it was a
lot---in fact, I still have friends I went to college with, and we’ve
just stayed close.</p>
<p>Q:
So were most of your friends there of a similar background to you?<br><br>
Young: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And their families
basically owned laundries, and growing up the same way, and being
first born in the United States, pretty much.</p>
<p>Q:
Were there a lot of people like that at Brooklyn College at that
time?<br><br>Young: Yeah, basically, yeah.
</p>
<p>Q:
So when you were in college, what did you major in?</p>
<p>Young:
I majored in education. I always knew I wanted to teach. I had a
nephew who, he is my brother’s son. He had problems and, you
know, they separated when my nephew was about maybe two years old,
and he lived in our house and he stayed with us. And I just enjoyed
taking care of him. And I would take him, I think I was in high
school, and I would take him to school, drop him off or pick him up
on my way to class. Maybe the first year of college. And it’s
funny, like I would see his teachers, and like, young teachers, and
they looked so nice and they’d have their cars and everything,
and I just liked taking care of him. So I wanted to teach, I always
wanted to, so I just majored in education, and then I went through
the four years, and did my student teaching, and I enjoyed it. I
always---and then, after I graduated, I graduated in ’71, and
at that time, there was a surplus of teachers. So I got a job working
in a daycare center, with three and a half year olds. That wasn’t
so much fun. They slept, they had accidents, they woke up, they
cried.</p>
<p>So
I did that for like, half a year. And then I substituted, in, it was
a District 1 school, and then, in, I started teaching in ’72,
and then, I’ve been in school since then.
</p>
<p>Q:
So did you live with your parents all the way through college?</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, we stayed home, I lived with my parents, I got married in
1973, and that’s when I moved out. A real exciting life.
(laughs) Really exciting.</p>
<p>Q:
So, who did you get married to?<br>
<br>Young: My husband,
David, he’s actually, I don’t know, I guess he’s
imported. He grew up in Rochester, and his, I went to college with
his cousin, and that’s how I met him, when he came to New York
City he was living---he is a teacher also, and he came to New York
City and he was looking for a teaching job. And then I met him
through his cousin, who I went to college with, and so that---</p>
<p>Q:
And where did you move?</p>
<p>Young:
(laughs) Really far away. About three blocks away from where my
parents lived. And so then we lived there for awhile, and then my
parents sold the building where the laundry is, and my, my younger
sister was living at home also, and then they, for the first time
ever they rented an apartment, ‘cause my father always owned
the building that we lived in. And he always promoted being in his
own business and being his own boss, and owning the place that you
live. So it was the first time ever that they rented an apartment and
they paid rent. So they did that for three years with my sister.</p>
<p>Q:
Was that in your neighborhood?<br><br>Young: No, they ventured out
to like about maybe two miles away. And they did that for three
years, and the rent started to go up and up and my father just
couldn’t stand it, so my sister said, proposed the idea that we
look for a house and we buy a house together. And I said, sure,
that’s fine, you know. So she found this huge 16-room two
family house, so we bought that, and that’s where we live now,
and so she and my parents lived on the first---on the second floor,
and David and I lived on the first floor.</p>
<p>Q:
And where was that?<br><br>Young: And so, that’s in the, I
guess the, Marine Park area. So it’s still in Brooklyn, and we
still live there now, and I have two kids. My parents passed away,
and my sister got married, and then she bought her own house, so now
we kind of, I bought the house from her, I paid
her for her
share, so we own the house now.
</p>
<p>Q:
And you’ve been there since?</p>
<p>Young:
Since 1978. I’m not a real mover. I don’t experiment,
move out of my surroundings. But I enjoy living in Brooklyn. It’s
kind of quiet, and, but the---it’s convenient. And, but, now,
when I was teaching, I taught on the Lower East Side, and in the
seventies, the city was really having financial difficulties, and
then I was laid off, and then I ended up teaching on Staten Island,
and then I taught in Brooklyn, and then I had my son, and I taught in
Crown Heights. It was a really tough area. A lot of West Indian
students, and it’s just a very poor area. You know, I had a
good time, I had a lot of fun teaching there, but when I came back,
after having my son, it was like, God, what a ---it was a struggle.
You know, it’s a struggle, because kids are needy.</p>
<p>And
in the evenings I always taught in Chinatown. I taught adults
English, so I did that for like 15 years. So every day I was teaching
in Brooklyn, and on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I would be out in
Chinatown teaching English to adults from 7:30 to 10. And just being
part of that Chinatown community with the adults, my Chinese got
better, although I was teaching English, but I got a chance to use my
Chinese and everything. And I thought about coming to Chinatown to
teach, so that’s when I moved into, in 1985, I taught at PS 1,
and I taught fifth and sixth grade there for eleven years, before I
came here to be a principal.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay. So were you always teaching elementary school?</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah. I was an elementary, by license I’m an elementary school
teacher. And I always taught fifth and sixth grade.</p>
<p>Q:
And then, when did you come here?<br><br>Young: In 1996.
</p>
<p>
Q: Okay that was after PS 1.</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, it was after PS 1. When I taught at PS 1, my principal was
really, I learned a lot from her, she was like my mentor, and she
would say, “Why don’t you become a principal?” And
she’s not Chinese, and she said that the community needs
someone who is Chinese, you could be---she always believed in being
role models and having role models for children, and she said that,
“Why don’t you go to school, go back to school, get your
license and be a principal and to say, you could be someone who could
be a role model for children, to help the parents,” and that’s
when I decided that, you know, that’s nice, because I see how
Chinese parents come into the school, and just the fact that they
have a teacher who is Chinese, they feel like they could speak to
and, you know, can open up to and relate to, and just that initial
meeting is so much conducive to, you know, speaking and opening, and
where they don’t have that openness when someone is non-Asian,
you know, it’s just that relaxing, kind of soothing effect.</p>
<p>So
then I went to school in the evenings, and got a CCNY [City College
of New York] grant that was funded by CCNY and the Department of Ed,
and I went for one year and got my certification to be a principal.
And then they were looking for someone---it was the year when
elementary school got capped at grade six, and grade six was part of
the middle school, so it was six, seven, eight. So the superintendent
asked me to come here to be the assistant principal, and I was very
nervous, because I never, I was never ever in a middle school. Ever.
I never taught in one. And he just said, just do it, he wants the
middle school to become like an elementary, closer to an elementary
school model, where kids are nurtured, it’s not like a junior
high school. So I came here in ’96 as an assistant principal,
and then the principal was also new here, and they had a lot of
issues, and so he asked me to become principal in April of that same
year, school year. And then I was the principal here from ’97,
April ’97 until June 2003.</p>
<p>Q:
And, how did you find it different to be principal rather than
teaching?</p>
<p>Young:
It was, you know, I stepped out of the classroom into this huge
place of 1400
children, 120 teachers, it was really, I
learned by doing, you know? And I remember asking, other principals,
asking my principal for help. I would call her every night with all
these issues. But it was, you have to learn on your feet, and you
have to think fast, and a lot of quick decisions, and I think what,
you know, my principal told me was, “Always put the kids in
front of you, and when you make your decision, always make sure the
kids are in front of you, and it’s a decision that will be the
best for the kids.” Because, you know, this school was a very
traditional school, with very, I would say, not the best teaching
practice, and so, in order to turn a school around to move a school,
is going to upset a lot of the adults and a lot of the teachers. But
every decision I made, I was able to say, you know, the rationale is,
how would that make it better for the kids? And so it became a lot
easier, and I think if you have a philosophy, or a goal, or just a
picture of how you want the classrooms to look and how you want the
kids to learn, it makes it that much easier.
</p>
<p>But
of course, a lot of lives were upset, a lot of changes in the school,
no one likes change. But, you know, sometimes it has to happen.</p>
<p>Q:
What’s a traditional school versus a (?) school.</p>
<p>Young:
Okay, well, you know, traditional in teaching would be the way I
went to school. You know, everybody staying in rows, the teacher is
very frontal teaching, the teacher lectures, you read a story, answer
the questions. There is kind of, very little conversation among the
kids and the teachers, and the teacher is always there. The teacher
is teaching. And I’m much more progressive in my thinking, and
I think the teacher should be facilitating, the teacher should be
helping kids learn how to ask questions, and when children ask the
questions, then they should be, like, we can guide them and show them
how to find the answers, and after that just to kind of gain that
knowledge, so it’s not always from me, it’s not always
that I know everything, where kids will ask questions and do their
own research.</p>
<p>And
I really believe in, you know, learning outside of the building, and
going to museums and going to cultural institutions, having experts
and speakers come in. So that would be a
different kind of
teaching. So with that belief and being the principal of this school,
where kids were all in rows and lots of frontal teaching, and using
one textbook, you know, it was hard, it was hard to make those
changes, but you know, I think we have, and kids really enjoy
learning now.</p>
<p>Q:
And can you talk a little bit about this school, just the makeup of
the students?</p>
<p>Young:
Oh, well, sure. This school has about 87 or 88 percent of the
children are Asian. 96 or 91, maybe I think it’s 96 percent of
the kids are entitled to free lunch, so that means we’re a
Title One school, and I guess it’s the poverty level, the
threshold, so 91 percent of our kids qualify for that. But we have
one of the highest attendance rates in this district. Ninety-seven
percent attendance. Fifteen percent of our kids are African-American,
Latino. And we have, ten percent of our kids are special education
children. Over half of our children are English language learners,
which means that they haven’t gained the English proficiency,
they haven’t passed the English proficiency tests, so they just
need that extra help and they are mandated to take ESL.</p>
<p>There’s
a bilingual program, about 120 to 150 kids in each grade, so where
they’re instructed in their native language in some content
area. So most of the time we teach the social studies and the math in
Chinese, and our children who are in the bilingual classes and get
instructed in Chinese and math, out-perform our Gen Ed kids, because
they come with such skills in math, but they’re just missing
the English, so we basically teach them in Chinese, you know, math
concepts in Chinese.</p>
<p>Q:
So what kind of challenges does that, other kinds of challenges does
that pose, just having a lot of kids who don’t speak English,
or whose parents don’t speak English?</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, well, you know, the challenge is to get them to, to motivate
them to learn English. We also, you know, teach native language arts,
and we try, the hope is to gain the English but also maintain some
kind of the Chinese reading a writing and listening and speaking, and
to motivate them to not get discouraged because, you know, kids see
that
they’re so behind and it’s so hard to
catch up, and so of course we don’t want them to drop out. And
they’re at an age where they come and they’re in the
eighth grade and they’re thirteen, fourteen years old,---you
know, there’s a lot of distractions. So we want to make sure
that we can motivate them to stay. So, that’s why we, you know,
I brought in, like a full arts program. We really have wonderful
teachers and this way that would maybe make them want to read and
write and talk about the dance, about the art, or about theater.</p>
<p>You
know, we have a chess club, we do photography, so we try to keep them
going. We’re not always successful, but basically kids stay,
they graduate, and hopefully they get into a good---a high school
that fits their needs.
</p>
<p>Q:
How much contact do you have with their parents?</p>
<p>Young:
Um, you know, it’s hard to get---that’s one of our
struggles, is to get parents to really participate and involved in
the school. I think it’s because it’s a very Western
concept of coming to school and having a voice and being welcomed,
and you know, especially with our parents in Chinatown, they work so
much, and they just----and culturally, they feel that, you know, my
children are at your school, you’re the experts, you’re
the educational experts, and now I’m going to go to work and
you do what you need to do. So they don’t even know that the
Western concept is that we want parent engagement, we want parent
involvement. So it is really very difficult to get parents to be
here, even at PTA meetings, or fundraising, ‘cause our parents
are very, you know, they’re poor, and they need to be at work
all the time. But I know that this year the mayor put in a new
position called “parent coordinator,” and they’re
exclusively to promote parent engagement. And I know that this school
has really doubled or tripled the number of parents who come to
meetings, because the parent coordinator calls them up, lets them
know, ‘please come to this meeting,’ so someone who, 100
percent of her time is to canvas parents, survey parents, find out
what they need, and I think that was a very smart thing, one of the
real positive things of this reform of Mayor Bloomberg’s, so
that’s really good.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you ever feel you could---when those parents come in to talk to
you, they feel more
comfortable---</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
---Like there’s a way that, in which there is still some kind
of gap, because you grew up here, and they’re----</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, of course there’s a gap, and then, I --- now that the
population of this area, and we have a lot of Fujianese parents
coming in. So most of the times I would say that I cannot communicate
with them, because they speak Mandarin and they speak Fukanese, and I
only speak Cantonese, so I find like this gap now, it’s, it’s
bigger. But we depend on translation so much, and we depend on kids
translating---I mean, sometimes for me to understand a child, we have
to go through like three people before we get the message, and I’m
sure some of it gets lost. So, it’s hard, but I think it’s
just the warmth of the school, and now that the culture of the school
is different, so I guess it makes it different, and of course with
the parent coordinator piece, that you know, it really just makes it
better.</p>
<p>Q:
What other changes have you seen here?<br><br>Young: In the school?</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah. Since ’96, till you left last year.</p>
<p>Young:
Well, definitely the way children are learning, ‘cause I’m
not a one-textbook person, so there are just---our rooms are filled
with books on every level. I really believe that we have to find out
where the child is and find out what the child likes and just make
every effort to have those kind of books and have those things for
the kids. You know, kids are learning together, there’s more
inquiry-based, and kids are asking questions. And when I first came
here, the school was quiet. You didn’t hear kids talk, because
the teachers had them just in rows, and the teacher was always
talking. But now, you know, the kids are happy, and the kids are
talking to one another, and we do small book groups, and we do
literature circles, and you know, kids are learning. And I
bring in an awful diverse group of people to come in and work with
them, especially in the arts. We always have, we have a good
connection with MoCA, we have a connection with Elders Share the
Arts, the Asian-American Arts Center, and so we have a lot of
different collaboratives, and you know, LeRoy Street, across the
street, the architects, if you look at our corner on Hester and
Eldridge---so we did a two-year project with LeRoy Street Architects.
Thirty children went across the street, they have a little storefront
classroom, and their project was to change the corner plot, a little
piece of land, into a place that will make the neighborhood, or make
that little corner more appealing and appeasing to the public.
</p>
<p>So
they really did a great job, and they studied that space as an
architect, so they studied the light in that area, the noise, the
different kinds of noise, the amount of people who pass by, and they
really looked at that little corner plot, and they came up with an
idea of how do we make it a place where it’s appealing and nice
and attractive. So they came up with this whole concept of wishing
wells. And so they built little, they built wishing wells with mosaic
tile. So if you look at the corner, I don’t know if you’ve
seen it, but look at it, and then they did ceramic tiles, and put
that up on the wall. And this was a two-year project, and then they
did all these metal sculptures of like, wind chimers, so they’re
all up, it’s just like, ten-feet high, and they did it. And
last week we had an opening. So it was really nice. So that’s
the kind of learning, that’s how kids should be learning. And
it was hard because, when you have parents who are not used to that
kind of instruction, kids who come from China and not learning that
way. So we really had to go at it slowly. I remember in the beginning
of the year, when I first came here and we had no textbooks, and we
just had regular books, you know. So parents were really, got upset,
and said, “God, there’s no books, where’s the
textbooks, in Wagner Junior High School they have books.” And I
said, “You know what?” and I tried to, with translators,
and school board members came and supported me, and I said to them,
you know, if you go to a bookstore and you want to learn about, you
know, World War II, you’re never going to get a textbook that
gives you three pages or two paragraphs about World War II, you would
get a book that says, you know, Battles of World War II, or
Presidents During World War II, and that’s the way your kids
should learn, cause textbooks are just companies making money off
schools.</p>
<p>
<br>So, slowly, you know, it started to change, and now parents
don’t question it, they just know that that’s the way to
learn. They used to not want to go on trips to museums and stuff, and
they’d say to me, the parents would say, “Well, you know,
they went there last year.” And even the way the trip in
Chinese, is like, to play, or---so I said, “Well, that’s
okay, we’re going, and this is what we’re doing, here’s
the worksheet, this is what we’re going to look at, and your
kids are learning earth science, and we’re going to the museum
and they’re going to look at the rocks.”</p>
<p>And
so they get it now, so I don’t have any more flack about
leaving the building or going to visit somewhere. So that’s
good.</p>
<p>Q:
You sound like you do have a very progressive outlook. How did they
develop, ‘cause it sounds like growing up you had a pretty
traditional schooling.</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, and actually, I credit that to teaching in District Two.
‘Cause when I was a teacher here, Anthony Alvarado was the
superintendent, and he really let teachers leave the classroom and
learn from one another, visit each other’s teaching, and read.
And so we read a lot of professional books, we talked a lot, we
looked at different methods of teaching and how kids should be
learning, and we did a lot of research, and I think that made me kind
of look at what teaching was all about, and not just accept----‘cause
when I was teaching in Brooklyn, you know, they hand you the books
and those are the books you use, and there was never any
conversation, I never went to a workshop, I never left the building.
The principal never engaged us in reading a book and talking about,
or about how we teach. We didn’t visit each other. But when I
came to District Two, that’s what we did. And then I just
realized that, you know, that’s why I say, kind of, my school
years are like kind of a blur. It was just not exciting. I did it
because I had to do it, and I knew my father would be pissed if I
didn’t bring home good grades.
</p>
<p>And
I wasn’t allowed to go anywhere, so I might as well stay home
and read. And then, you know, like, once I started teaching I really
learned to be a better reader. I really was able to
kind of
question what I read, and talked about what I read, and it was really
so hard for me when I would take a workshop and say well, you know,
think about the book, reflect on it, think about your life, and it
was hard for me to do that, because I was never allowed to ask
questions or say what I felt or what I thought. So I had to learn to
do that. And I think in that process of learning how to do that, I
kind of looked at teaching in a different way, ‘cause that’s
not how I learned. And I just, you know, I mean, I won’t know
the answer, but I was wondering if I had learned that way, you know,
where would I be, and what would I be thinking, you know? Yeah, so I
didn’t know that, how it would pan out if I had a different
kind of school life.
</p>
<p>[interrupted
by cell phone]</p>
<p>How
much longer are we going to do this?</p>
<p>Q:
Well, (?) just, maybe a little bit about the day---</p>
<p>Young:
Sure.</p>
<p>Q:
---what happened?</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, it’s still very much in my memory. Well, I guess the day
started out pretty normal, and I knew that at 9:30 I had to be at the
Board of Ed, because I had written a letter of poor performance about
a teacher and put it in his file, and he was filing a grievance and I
had to go and testify. So I had to be there by 9:30---</p>
<p><strong>[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]</strong></p>
<p>---so
I had my day, you know, like in the morning the kids came, and then I
knew I was going to leave about nine o’clock, to take the F
train down to Jay Street. So it was about ten to nine, all the kids
were in class, they all came up and school started at 8:40, so I was
in my office with my assistant principal, who is now the current
principal, Jane. And I heard this like, big bang. And like this big
boom, I never heard such a noise, and Jane said to me, “Is
that thunder?” So I said, “I hope so.” It
sounded like it. I never heard something like that.</p>
<p>Then
the security officer came into my office, and he said, “They
just bombed the World Trade Center.” So I said, “Oh, my
God.” So I went, since we’re so close, the first thing I
did was, you know, I called the district office, to find out if they
knew anything. So I called Roy Moskowitz, who was the legal counsel,
and I said, “Roy, what happened, did you hear that they, that
the World Trade Center was bombed?” And he said, “No,”
he said, “There was an accident, it was a small plane that hit
the tower.” And so I said, “Okay,” I said, “That’s
fine, as long as like, nothing terrible, I mean, okay, it was a
terrible thing that a small plane, as soon as I got off the phone and
not (?)</p>
<p>So
then, Jane came running into the office again, and she says, “Alice,
people are dying. You have to come outside. You have to see this.”
And ‘cause we can see the towers from our school yard. So I ran
outside, and I was with the school secretary, and I just saw this
gaping hole and the tower was just all smoke billowing out, and
we’restanding there, and all of a sudden, it just---the second
tower just like exploded. But we didn’t see it, we were
standing on the sidewalk and we didn’t see a plane hit it. I
didn’t know what happened. I thought something happened, and
ignited something in the other building. So we just like stood there,
and I just, with Joyce, my secretary, and we kind of like hugged each
other. I said, “Oh my god, what is going on?”
</p>
<p>So
we went back inside, and by that time, kids have seen it, ‘cause
the kids in the south side of the building, right by the bridge can
see it. So I got on the loudspeaker, and I said, “You know,
there’s been an accident, something, there’s been an
accident, and so, everything’s okay, we’re just going to
go on as usual, just, everything’s alright.”</p>
<p>And
then we heard on the news that there’s another plane that was
hijacked and was headed toward the White House, and it was just like
getting a little kind of crazy. And then we all, with the assistant
principals, we walked through the building just to make sure
everything was calm. And I just heard a lot of screaming in one
classroom, so I went into the classroom,
and they looked,
and they saw the tower just collapsing. It was just like, horrible.
So then we just----I got on the loudspeaker again, ‘cause I
didn’t, first of all, I didn’t even know what was going
on. And I said that, you know, “I know some of you have seen
the towers collapsing, but let’s stay calm, and you know, we’re
safe, we’re fine, we’re just going to be in the
building.”</p>
<p>And
then I got a call from the district office and they said that, don’t
let any kids go home unless their parents pick them up. And I said,
“Well, that’s great, how will they know to pick them up?”
So we have a school board member in the building, who’s really
great, and she called the Chinese radio, and to ask them to make an
announcement that if your child is in school, please try to get to
school as soon as you can and just pick up your children. And they’re
not going to be dismissed until you pick them up.</p>
<p>So
then, kids were, parents were coming, and picking them up, but I
didn’t want to make an announcement and say, you know, John
Lee, your mother is here, come to the main office. So we decided that
we would just go up stairs and get the child, and just start, you
know. And then I took classes of kids and we called---I took them to
the office, and teachers would take them to one of the offices where
there’s a phone and then call, and then by a quarter to seven,
I think, every child was picked up. But it was like quite an
experience. It was only, I think the second day of school, or the
third day of school. And we had a family who was just admitted that
day from China, the first day of school. And the grandmother came
to---she didn’t want to---you know, she goes, “He belongs
in school, let him stay in school.” I said, “No, well,
you know, there’s this big catastrophe, and people just have
to, we have to just empty out the school, ‘cause it’s
really not safe, you should really take him home.” And her
comment was, you know, “I grew up with war, I lived in a place
where war was going on all the time.” I think she was from
Cambodia, but she’s ethnically Chinese, so she said, “This
is nothing. I don’t think it’s unsafe. He needs to be in
school.”
</p>
<p>So
we really had to convince her to say, “Take your child home for
now,” you know. And, but luckily, our families, we didn’t,
there weren’t any, none of our families lost anyone there,
because they don’t work at the Twin Towers, you know, so they
work in the factories. But
the area was devastated, because
the kids---their parents lost their jobs, the factories were closed,
this place was like, it was like a lockdown. And it was hard. You
know, this was a --- this school was the relief center, for the Red
Cross. So our school was closed for like two or three extra days, and
we had families living here with the cots, and then when school, when
we opened school, we couldn’t use our gymnasium in the
basement, because it was still a relief center for families.
</p>
<p>Q:
Can you talk a little more about the effects, other effects of 9/11.
You said a lot of kids’ parents lost jobs---</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, they did. They lost jobs, I mean we did a project with the
kids, and they wrote about what was happening at home. Kids asked if
we could have classes after school, because they just didn’t
want to go home, because their parents were there. It was sad for
them. They also, I --- to me, they wanted to do more schoolwork, and
wanted after school tutoring because they felt that if they just do
their work and do it well, that’s one thing their parents
didn’t have to worry about. So that was something that we saw
happening. And they just wanted to hang out at school. And then we
got, we did get a lot of FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency]
money, and I was wondering, like, so what should we do with this FEMA
money? We got ninety-thousand dollars. Because I didn’t want it
just to do more school work. So we sent a survey out to the kids, and
asked them what they wanted to do. We asked teachers what their
passion was.</p>
<p>And
I told them, “We have ninety thousand dollars, so design your
after school piece.” And I made it like, you know, you write a
proposal, you know, just a mini-proposal, and I asked every school
member, every teacher, guidance counselor, social worker, to just
design your program. And you know, we have ninety thousand dollars
which is a lot of money. And so teachers were great. And that’s
how the oral history project came out, was one teacher decided to do
this with the kids. A couple of teachers wanted to do poetry writing
and poetry slam. Our Special Ed teacher, who had the mentally
retarded children, he wanted to do cooking with them on Saturdays. I
thought that was great, because, you know, these are children who
have Down’s Syndrome, who have cerebral palsy, and if we could
just have
them in school for three hours, that gives the
parents a break. And so he did this whole cooking thing, and they
would shop, and they would cook, so he did it on Saturdays.</p>
<p>We
bought---what did we buy? Guitars, and our music teacher gave guitar
lessons, so we bought about fifteen guitars and he had fifteen kids
and he taught them how to play guitar, you know, lessons. Another
teacher did violin lessons. So it was really very nice. And teachers
just did what they wanted to do. And wanted to teach. So, then of
course we had the usual, you know, test prep kind of stuff, too. But
the kids had a lot of fun. We used the gymnasium, they played chess,
we had photography, so it was good. Yeah.</p>
<p>And
then we got, like the New York Times gave us a lot of money to bring
arts into the school, so during the school day we had a program where
kids did digital photography, digital film-making. So it was this
whole variety of things that kids did. Boys did knitting. It was fun.
But it was hard, it was a big impact, and the kids really just
weren’t used to having their parents around, you know, like
their fathers and mothers in restaurants used to, they were never
home, and then they just saw how depressing it was, and they didn’t
want to be there. So this after school piece was really nice for
them.</p>
<p>Q:
Did they have, did they ever do anything directly related to 9/11?
Like writing about it, or---</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, they did a lot of writing about it---one of our teachers, took
them down to Nino’s Restaurant, and where Nino’s just
served all the firefighters and all the rescue workers, and so they
went there and they did this whole documentary about Nino’s
Restaurant, and they raised money and they went down, they presented
the check to the owner of Nino’s, and they sat and they talked
to the---they interviewed the firefighters and the police officers
and so they did this piece with their English teacher. And then they
presented it to the rest of the school. They videotaped it, and it’s
still here. You know, the teacher’s still here, they still have
the projects. Kids wrote books, and then we had, like, we had a
couple of people from Oklahoma come and visit, and talked about how
it was in Oklahoma when that disaster happened over there. So it was,
it brought this school together,
brought the community
together, and the teachers together, in terms of talking about it.</p>
<p>But
we realized that you know, we did all of this outreach in trying to
make sure the kids were taken care of, but I realized that the
teachers were, needed that too. So we tried to use some of that
ninety thousand dollars and other monies that we had, so we would
have teachers come together and do some art therapy. And we had art
therapy---in fact, we still have money coming from Project Liberty,
which is the remnants of the 9/11 money, and this is our second year,
or this is our---almost two and half years of art therapy, for our
kids, and we’re still being, we’re still funded to the
end of this year, and possibly next year. And the teachers just love
it, ‘cause teachers got together during their lunch hour, and
did this fabulous painting and just kind of own self-expression. We
had people come in to do yoga with the teachers. We had aromatherapy
for them.</p>
<p>Three
times, people came for the massages, they like brought massage
tables. And we set up this really nice, like, dim lights and candles
and music, and during the teachers’ preparation time, they
would sign up and come in for the---they had all massage tables and
went all out getting a massage. That was really nice. And just ways
to have teachers relax, and, you know, they had retreats for us. And
some teachers went. And we realized that the adults needed too, you
know, maybe more so than the kids, ‘cause they were so stressed
out from this thing.</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah. It’s a big job to take care of thirteen hundred kids and
over a hundred teachers.
</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Young:
You know?</p>
<p>Q:
Is there a way---how did you, did you feel like you could tell how
the kids were doing, or sort of processing?</p>
<p>Young:
Yeah, well, you know, we had the counselors check in, and we
had---but you know, I guess maybe it’s my own personality and
how I view life, but my feeling was that, you know, okay, so, we
grieved a little, but we have to move on. It’s enough. We have
to just keep going. And I know there was a little kind of, tug and
pull between some of the staff felt that I didn’t do enough,
and didn’t provide enough of the compassion and all of this
memory of and kind of continue commem---or just memorializing it, and
that I should have spend more time, so I knew there was a certain
group of teachers that felt that way. But I think it’s just,
that’s me, that’s how I feel, I feel like we should just
move on. But there was a little of that resistance where I know there
were some teachers who felt like, Oh, you didn’t do enough, and
you know, we should have done more, and, but I---my feeling is, it’s
time to just move on.</p>
<p>
<strong>[END
OF INTERVIEW]</strong></p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕我們現在於131初中和楊鳳美一起,那麼,請你先介紹自己,說出你的名字。</p>
<p>楊﹕好的,我名叫楊鳳美。</p>
<p>問﹕請你講一些有關你在那裡出生﹖在那裡長大﹖你年幼時在那裡﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕當然,嗯,其實,我在曼哈頓出生,因為,唯一的華裔婦產科醫生就在曼哈頓,我在東15街出生,但在布碌崙居住,在布碌崙長大,一直都在布碌崙居住,我在那裡讀書,小學乃至大學,我都只留在—我簡直是布碌崙女孩(笑聲)。</p>
<p>問﹕所以,你在布碌崙的那邊﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕其實,我在一個名貴士省的鄰舍長大,爸爸擁有一間手洗洗衣店,有一間工廠專門熨摺裇衫,24小時有工人不停工作,我們居住,你知喇,一些朋友居在手洗洗衣店後面,我們就住在樓上,很多機器不停轉動,熨床之類,很嘈吵,我在那裡長大,直到結婚。<br>
問﹕那鄰舍是怎樣的﹖
楊﹕嗯,它叫貴士省,是意大利裔社區,其實,我住在麥當奴大道,F車就在那裡行走,是一條地上車軌,<br>
非常嘈吵,我記得我在大學時,一些人問我要電話號碼,當他打電話來時,他以為我借用了地車站的電話(笑聲)。</p>
<p>所以,我住在那裡,一直到23歲。</p>
<p>問﹕好的,那麼,你知道多少有關你父母的過去﹖他們怎樣到美國的﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕當然可以,我知道很多,其實,當家父來到這國家,他十三歲,和他爸爸及叔伯來,那時只有男性才移民,我猜想爸爸的叔伯在上州士嘉大有一間洗衣館,所以他們在那裡居住一段短時間,然後,因為和華人缺乏交往,他們決定來到紐約市到華埠來,那時在華埠有柏文或社團,又有寡佬柏文給年青人居住,他們就到來住下,就在擺也街。<br>
然後祖父在布碌崙帝王大道開了一間洗衣館,我想爸爸以前說他想離開華人遠一點,所以就搬出華埠,他那時已常常留在布碌崙,但仍未定居下來,後來他們開了一家洗衣店,爸爸說他那時15歲,又住在那裡,我的祖父,你知喇,只想來到這裡,賺錢、儲錢、寄錢返中國,希望有一天返回中國。</p>
<p>後來,祖父病了,想返中國,因為那是他的家鄉,他想回去,於是我爸爸及叔伯就留下來,有趣的是,當我爸爸那時將近18歲,他們就叫他回鄉下娶老婆,爸爸於是回去,結了婚,等到大哥出世後,爸爸就留哥哥在鄉下,自己回來這裡做工,<br>
約在八年後,又回中國,其後我的二哥出生(笑聲)。</p>
<p>所以,每次他每次返鄉下,就生一個孩子,在1949年,共產黨來,控制了中國,到南京,爸爸就決定,找一個律師,決定將家庭帶來美國﹕接我的哥哥及媽媽來美,然後,他想儲蓄及回中國養老的想法就沒有了,他明白每個人應該移民這裡,因為他不再想返回中國了,這是他們移民的因由。<br>
問﹕好的,他們經過很多困難才能到來嗎﹖例如護照及……﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀﹗嗯﹗你知道喇﹗他要得到,嗯,其實,他的洗衣館的地區非常,我猜是富有的鄰舍,他的顧客是醫生、律師等,有一個律師定時將衣服交給爸爸洗,爸爸開始問他,你也知道喇,諸如之類的問題﹕「我怎樣申請家人到來﹖我有家人……」然後,他帶所有文件,你知道喇,給律師,做應該做的事,於是,在1949年,爸爸回到中國,就開始辦文件申請家人來這裡,家中有個笑話,是因為我在1950年出生,媽媽在香港懷了我,在1950年5月來美時正懷孕中,所以我好像是家中第一個小孩,你知道喇,是在美國生的第一個小孩。<br>
問﹕所以,你家一共多少個孩子﹖
楊﹕一共五個,我有三個哥哥,比我大,全部在……,兩個在中國,一個在香港出生,然後我們來這裡,他們來美國之後生了我,再生一個妹妹。</p>
<p>問﹕所以五個人都在貴士省﹖在布碌崙長大﹖
<br>
楊﹕是呀,在布碌崙,但不要忘記我的年紀和長兄相差一大截,我的意思是,他幾乎可以做我的爸爸,他來時已經結了婚。</p>
<p>問﹕是的嗎﹖他和他太太一起來嗎﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕嗯,他起初沒有帶妻子來,移民法當時規定他可以先來,然後再申請妻子,他來時已經和妻子在中國結了婚。<br>
問﹕好的,在那時候,50年代,你的成長經歷是怎樣的,你剛才提及你在意大利人鄰舍中長大﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是啊,那是十分意大利的鄰舍,妹妹和我是在整間學校中唯一的華人家庭孩子,我不知道,不太記得小學的事情了,只是…….,爸媽管教很嚴,你知喇,我時常要照顧妹妹,她只比我小13個月,主要概念是,你不需要朋友,下課後不要到處跑,只要下課後返家做功課,所以你就,你知喇,上學,返家,很多上學,返家,然後,我爸爸…..,我那時不太明白,但現在明白他為什麼那麼做,我們家中沒有電視,他堅持我們在家中講中文,不講英文,又沒有任何玩具,我們時常做功課,及寫字,他又有間洗衣店,我們做完功課後,就到樓下幫忙。</p>
<p>所以他,我猜他的人生哲學是,我媽說他常常說﹕「嗯,他們什麼都不懂,怎會學到英文﹖」所以他說﹕「我們不懂英文也不怕。」他只怕我們喪失中國文化之類,所以,你知喇,他在家保留每一樣中國的東西,我們不許講一點英文。記得在三年級,我們多次央求父母後,終於得到了一部電視,於是,有一天,我讀三年級時,<br>
爸爸來接我放學,用車載我到Sears(百貨店) ,我們買了第一部電視機。當電視送來我家時,到現在我仍記得那是星期五的下午,我們只有一個客廳,但不是,你知喇,又有一張沙發及枱,要有一個地方放置電視,我和妹妹原本坐兩張摺椅,就將電視擱在那裡,他們送電視來,我們接上電源,那是在7台,播放美國樂隊節目,我不知道電視是什麼,又是如何操作,我們就讓它一直開著,也不知道可以轉到其他頻道之類,所以每天我們都收看美國樂隊節目,然後我返學校告訴同學,你知喇,我有電視,他們就說﹕「多好,你有沒有看這、看那節目﹖」你知喇,那些表演,我就說﹕「你講什麼﹖」然後我們決定轉動那些電視按鈕,然後我發現,你知喇,我們可以轉動,可以看其他節目,我回想,「噢,我們真是被受保護的一群。」</p>
<p>問﹕你沒有其他朋友﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕不很多,我的意思是,你知喇,我的父母不准我們到別人家中,肯定也不讓別人到我家,他們時常在樓下工作,我們在樓上,我可以看電影、或讀書、或、你知喇,打架(笑聲),我和妹妹。有時,就算在學校,要合作做報告,同時,放學後,要一起走,要一起做研究項目,我們要花很多精神說服爸爸,出外需要大條理由的,我們……。</p>
<p>然後,他就駕車載我們到同學家,又接我們回來,我們要這樣做,你知喇。</p>
<p>問﹕為了讀書才可以。</p>
<p>楊﹕為了讀書,是呀﹗</p>
<p> 問﹕那你們講什麼中國方言﹖
楊﹕我們講廣東話。<br>
問﹕好的,那你家庭來自那裡﹖
楊﹕嗯,他們來自,那時叫廣東,現在叫廣州,在南部一個省份,我想,那縣份叫台山,所以我們說台山話,我猜是,你知喇。</p>
<p>每星期我們都到中文學校,好像既定儀式一樣。</p>
<p>問﹕學校在那裡﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕在華埠,你知喇,那時不像現在可以在布碌崙買中國蔬菜之類,所以,每個星期日如同旅行般,我們吃中國餐,然後出來上中文學校,由下午一時至三時,父母來接我們,那裡有一間電影院,爸爸會給我們25仙,那時候25仙可以用很久了,我們到電影院,媽媽愛看中國舞台劇,你知喇,中國電影,我們就可以看那些,我們吃晚餐,大約在晚上八時回家,我們就是這樣過星期日。<br>
問﹕每個星期日,自少如此。</p>
<p>楊﹕每個星期日,是呀,一直如此,我猜,直到初中就停止了,因為我不用再讀中文學校。</p>
<p>問﹕所以,你和華人社區有多少聯繫,除了……</p>
<p> 楊﹕沒有,並不很多,你知喇,只和家人一起,我們在華埠做的事不多,除了看電影、讀中文學校,及吃晚餐,僅此而已。</p>
<p>問﹕你有沒有祖父母輩﹖你說過你爸爸的叔伯在這裡,他們在這裡有家庭嗎﹖
楊﹕嗯,其實有,嗯,他們都返中國,又過世了,但爸爸有兄弟在這裡,我的叔伯及嬸母,及堂兄弟姐妹,家族,你知喇,都頗大,但相對其他家庭仍不算大。</p>
<p>問﹕你常見到他們嗎﹖
楊﹕我們在星期日到華埠時見到他們,我們在勿街22號蔬菜店,我們整個家族,大部份住在布碌崙,到華埠買東西,你知喇,爸爸駕車,他買了很多很多蔬菜,因為洗衣店整日開放,八小時一班,大部份老闆都供應午、晚餐食,我媽媽為約50人煮食,弄午餐、晚餐,然後下一班工人又來,後來他們聘請一個會煮飯的,弄餐,早上兩輪午餐,於是她不停地煮大型菜,在洗衣館大約有50人和我們一起吃飯。<br>
問﹕所以,洗衣館有多大﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕巨型,巨型,像,可能比這整間圖書館還要大,有五座熨壓機器,約13部熨斗,14熨台、男工人熨衣及摺衣,我們將衣放入盒,送出店面及其他洗衣店。</p>
<p>問﹕所以,這些工人都來自那裡﹖</p>
<p> 楊﹕大部份來自華埠,他們乘地車來,長時間工作,我意思是,早班一班由早八時至晚八時,晚班由八時至早上八時,大部份是一星期六天,你知喇,我們工作很勤勞。</p>
<p>問﹕你說你爸爸大概要離開華埠,他有沒有告訴你原因﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕嗯,我猜他想我們長大時離開,我不太清楚,他覺得他不想我們受影響,我不太清楚,那時也不多像70及80年代的黨派問題,他只覺得,我不太清楚為什麼,他說,他用奇怪的表情說,他說當華人都遷入那鄰舍,你就應該遷出去(笑聲),我不太清楚為什麼,他只,我不太清楚,他只覺得他要我們,雖然在家不講英文,他想我們在比較像居宅區的地方成長,不像一些地方到處都是餐館及細小柏文,我們住的地方很寬闊,每人有一個房間,很好。</p>
<p>問﹕我們要講快一點,講你進大學的生活。</p>
<p>楊﹕ 是呀,我入大學,入讀布碌崙學院,你知喇,爸爸將恤衫送到很多洗衣店,他時常,到那裡都好,都駕駛到布碌崙學院附近,這偌大校園有鐘樓及尖塔,他對我說,「你知道嘛,你們將到這裡唸書,這是大學。」它就在四角型道口的終端,從百福大道一直望到底就是布碌崙學院。不知道為什麼,他送衣服時往往要走在百福大道近布碌崙學院,我猜給我們形成根深柢固的概念,當我申請大學時,我並沒有申請很多學校,他也不會讓我們離開的,我們甚至沒有去想。</p>
<p> 於是我入了大學,入讀布碌崙學院,然後我自己駕車,我學駕車,我問﹕「爸爸怎樣去的呢﹖」就好像,我不曾去想,它看來很宏偉,不像在布碌崙區的中心,於是,我也和妹妹一同,當然妹妹也進了布碌崙學院。好像我們的志願是要入大學,我猜幸好爸爸讓我們唸大學,因為我高中很多朋友,我長大時有自己的朋友,有些朋友成為爸爸的顧客,我開始有華裔的社交圈子,基本上是因為我和爸爸收集衣服而結識的,他們和我年紀相若,又合得來,很多女孩子不能唸大學,因為他們的父母覺得要為兒子儲錢,給他們讀大學,或他們認為女孩子不應該唸大學,所以我的華裔高中同學裡,我想,我和妹妹是少數能夠唸大學的孩子。</p>
<p>問﹕你覺得你爸爸和別人有所不同,是因為什麼﹖
楊﹕因為他真的相信教育,他真的說過,你要讀書,讀大學,無論是仔是女都好,我想他時常灌輸給我們,我們應讀好書,一代比一代好,不應像他一樣做牛做馬,一天工作十五小時。所以,我們時常努力做得最好,全力以赴,但他只覺得,向上的方法是我們要上學,這是美國,我們在這裡,就是要讀書,你知喇,我們真的很努力,但很困難,因為他們不能幫助我們,他們不懂很多英文,我記得我要寫一個報告,我需要百科全書,他又不准我們到圖書館,是不是﹖他不能明白,我也未能向他解釋百科全書是什麼,我只告訴他那是一本書,我們需要這些書,到圖書館那裡找,所以他的反應是﹕「我會買給你們,在那裡買﹖」然後我們走入書店,我們問,我們問那人要一套百科全科,他望著我們好像要說﹕「你們傻了嗎﹖不能在這裡買的。」那時有一個顧客走進來,他說﹕「我有一套智慧之書(Book of Knowledge),但失了一本L,<br>
你要不要買﹖」我爸爸於是買了給我們,那是又舊又爛,很多破繩頭在書脊掉出來,然後他買了給我們,我們就用那智慧之書。</p>
<p>然後,那幫我們全家來的律師,為我們做很多事,他為爸爸寫支票,處理所有賬單,每星期六我們都見他,帶餅食糕點及報紙,我爸爸付款,送給他,像是逢星期六的禮儀,我們給他洗好的衣服,洗熨他的衣服,摺好,帶回去,我們問他,他說﹕「噢,你想,你真的想要麼﹖」我說﹕「是的」,然後我爸爸用了三百元,那時候是很多錢,他買了整套世界百科全書,連同書架,每年要加新書,你知喇,我想那時我在五年級,有自己的一整套百科全書。</p>
<p>所以,他想為我們預備我們需要的,那很難辦得到,因為他不懂英文,我記得我需要釘書機,真的不知道在那裡買,所以,他駕車載我們,從布碌崙一直到華埠勿街Waku書店,買了這個回旋牌釘書機,我仍然保存它,你知喇,那些事很有趣,但在成長當時使人感到挫折。</p>
<p>問﹕是嗎﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀﹗</p>
<p>問﹕所以……,你進入高中後,有一些朋友。</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,在高中開始有一些朋友,然後入大學,你知喇,我們要搜索自己的路,很多女孩子不能讀大學,然後在大學,我結識了這圈子的朋友,基本上是華裔,我參加了中國同學會,然後一年後,妹妹入大學,我們都有很多社交,<br>
其實,我現在仍然和那些大學朋友保持密切聯繫。</p>
<p>問﹕所以,你的朋友大部份和你背景相似﹖
楊﹕是呀,是呀,很相近,他們家人基本上也開洗衣店,在相近背景成長,又在美國出生,很相近。</p>
<p>問﹕那時在布碌崙學院很多那樣的人嗎﹖
楊﹕是呀,基本上,是呀。</p>
<p>問﹕那你在大學時,你主修什麼﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕我主修教育,我一直知道我喜歡教書,我有一個姪兒,是哥哥的兒子,你知喇,姪兒父母離了婚,他大約兩歲,要住在我家,我喜歡照顧他,帶著他,我讀高中,帶他上學,接他放學,大學一年級時,很有趣,我見到他的老師們,年青,很好,他們有自己的車及其他,我很喜歡照顧姪兒,所以也很喜歡教導他,我時常想這樣做,所以我主修教育,讀了四年,實習教書,也很喜歡。我時常,然後,我畢業,在71年畢業生,那時,教師過剩,所以我到托兒所工作,和三歲半小孩一起,不是很有趣,他們睡覺,又生意外,醒來時又哭鬧。<br>
我在那裡工作差不多半年,然後做代課教師,在第一學區,然後,在72年開始教書,之後一直在學校工作。</p>
<p>問﹕你一直到大學也和父母一起住嗎﹖</p>
<p> 楊﹕是呀,我住在家裡,和父母一起,1973年結婚,就搬出去,很刺激(笑聲),真的很刺激。</p>
<p>問﹕所以,你和誰結婚﹖
楊﹕我丈夫,大衛,他其實,我不知道,我猜他是進口來的,他在羅徹斯特生長,他的…..,我和他老表在同一大學,於是就認識了他,當他來到紐約市,就住在……,他也是教師,來到紐約市找教席,我因他老表而認識他,在同一大學唸書,所以……。</p>
<p>問﹕然後你們搬到那裡去﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕(笑聲),真的很遠呀,距離父母家三條街遠,我們住了好一陣子,然後我父母賣了有洗衣館那座房子,我的妹妹也住在家中,他們第一次賣了房子租住柏文,因為我爸爸時常都是住自己買來的房子,他喜歡自己當老闆,有自己的事業,有自己的房子,他第一次租住柏文交租,和妹妹一起住了三年。</p>
<p>問﹕那柏文在你附近﹖
楊﹕不,他們嘗試住在兩哩外,三年,然後租金高漲,爸爸不能忍受,於是妹妹建議我們看房子,合作一起買,我說好呀,你知道喇,她找到一間十六房間的兩家庭,我們買下來,住到現在,妹妹和父母先住,在二樓,我和大衛住在一樓。</p>
<p> 問﹕房子在那裡﹖
楊﹕那在,我猜在海軍公園區,仍舊在布碌崙,我們住到現在,我有兩個孩子,父母過世了,妹妹結了婚,然後又買了自己的房子,然後,我們就買了妹妹那一份,房子完全屬於自己了。</p>
<p>問﹕你一直住在那裡﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕從1978年至現在,我不是喜歡搬家的人,不會離開鄰舍的,但我喜歡住在布碌崙,很寧靜,又,但…..,很方便,但現在,我要教書,七零年代在下東城教書,市府財政短絀,我被解僱,轉到史丹頓島教書,然後又在布碌崙教,後來生了孩子,就在皇冠高地教書,那是一個品流複雜、很多印第安裔學生、很貧困的地區,你知喇,日子過得很好,我教書很開心,但回到家中,自從有兒子後,好像,天呀,掙扎很大,你知喇,很多掙扎,因為孩子需要很大。</p>
<p>在晚上,我時常到華埠教書,教成人英語,十五年了,每日我在布碌崙教書,逢星期二、四晚上七時半至十時就到華埠教英文,和華埠社區的成人在一起,我的中文進步了,雖然我教的是英文,但有機會用中文及其他,我想過到華埠教書,所以我在1985年到第一小學任教五、六年級,歷時十一年,那是在我成為校長之前。</p>
<p>問﹕好的,你是否一直教小學﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,我的執照是小學老師,時常教五、六年級。</p>
<p> 問﹕然後,你什麼時候來這裡﹖
楊﹕1996年。</p>
<p>問﹕好的,是否在第一小學之後,你就來這裡﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,是在第一小學之後,當我教第一小學時,我的校長真是我的師長,從她身上我學到很多,她會說﹕「你為什麼不做校長﹖」她不是中國人,覺得社區需要華人,「你可以,」她相信她是孩子及家長的模範,她說﹕「你何不讀書,回到學校讀書,取得校長執照﹖那是說,你可以成為孩子的模範,幫助家長。」那我決定,你知喇,那很好,因為我明白華人父母來到學校,只是因為他們知道有華人教師,感覺到可以向老師訴說,你知喇,他們可以有同聲同氣的人,在首次見面溝通良好,你知喇,坦白地說,他們對非亞裔人並不能坦然講話,你知喇,就是那種感覺鬆弛、舒暢的效果。<br>
於是我在晚上上學,獲得由紐約市立大學及教育部發出的獎學金,讀了一年,取得證書,成為校長,後來他們要聘請一個人,當時小學不再包括六年級,六年級變成初中的一部份,初中有六、七、八年級,所以校監問我要不要再做初中副校長,我很怕,因為我從來未,未教過初中,校監就說,即管教,他希望初中變成較近小學的模式,孩子獲得培育,不單止像初中。於是,我在九六年成為副校長,然後那校長也是新的,有很多事要辦,他同年四月問我要不要做校長,<br>
然後我在九七年四月成為校長,直至2003年六月。</p>
<p>問﹕你覺得做校長和做教書有什麼不同﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕那是,你知喇,我從教室出來,走進1400名孩子、120名教師的巨大地方,那真是邊學邊做,你知道嗎﹖我記得問其他校長,找其他校長來幫忙,我每晚打電話問問題,但你知喇,我要學逐步站起來,要很快思考,很多事情要在一瞬間作決定,我想起前校長告訴我的﹕「將孩子放在第一位,當你做決定時,時常確定孩子在你的第一位,那你的決定就一定為孩子的益處著想。」因為,你知喇,這學校非常傳統,我認為,亦不是用最好的教學方法,所以,要改變學校轉到別的方向,可能令成年人及很多教師不安,但我做的每一個決定,都要遵照一個原理,就是是否為了孩子的益處著想﹖那是比較容易決定的,我認為如你有一套關於如何管理課室,或孩子應如果學習的哲學、或目標、或只是一個圖象,事情就容易得多了。</p>
<p>但是當然,很多人不高興學校的轉變,沒有人喜歡轉變的,但是,你知喇,有時事情是要發生的。</p>
<p>問﹕傳統學校相對於學校有什麼不同﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀﹗嗯﹗你知喇,傳統教學是我以前上學的一套,你知喇,學生排排坐,老師在前面教書,老師講學,你讀書,回答問題,這一套,孩子和老師很少對話,老師時時主宰,老師在教書,我的思考是比較激進的,我認為老師應引導學生,應幫忙孩子如何問問題,當孩子問問題時,他們應,好像,我們應引導他們找尋答案,<br>
然後才獲得知識,所以知識不一定從我而來,因為我不知道所有事情,孩子應自己問問題及做自己的研究。<br>
同時,我真的相信,你知喇,在學堂以外的學習,如到博物館或文化機構,有專家或講者到來,是另外一種教育方法,具備那些信念,又身為這學校的校長,現時孩子排排坐及老師站在前面教書,用一本教科書,你知喇,很難,很難才可轉變,但是,你知喇,我認為孩子真的很喜歡學習。</p>
<p>問﹕你可以講一些關於這間學校的事嗎﹖例如學生的背景﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕噢,嗯,當然可以,這學校中,87或88個百分點是亞裔孩子,96或97個百分點有免費午餐資格,意思是我的學校屬第一條款,我猜屬貧窮線以下,貧窮線是91個百分點,但我們的學生在學區內有最高的出席率,97個百分點,15個百分點的孩子是西、非裔,10個百分點是特殊教育孩子,一半孩子是英語學習者,即他們的英文程度不足,未通過英語流利程度猜試,他們需要額外幫助,被強制學英語。<br>
那是一個雙語計劃,每級約有120至150名孩子,在那裡接受一些用母語教授的科目,大部份時間我們用中文教社會及及數學,在雙語教育班學中文及數學的學生,成績比普通學生好,因為他們本來具備這種數學技考,只是英文一環缺乏流利,所以我們基本上用中文教,你知喇,用中文講數學概念。</p>
<p> 問﹕你面對這麼多不會講英文的孩子,或不講英文的家長,有什麼挑戰及困難﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,嗯,你知喇,那挑戰是推動他們學習英文,我們也,你知喇,教他們母語,我們嘗試,希望英文程度增進也同時保持一些中文讀、寫、聽及講的程度,引起他們動機,不致氣餒,因為,你知喇,孩子知道他們非常落後,很難跟得上程度,當然不想被踢出校,他們來的年紀是13、14歲,就讀八年級,你知喇,心中被很多事情困擾,所以我們引起他們學習動機,讓他們留下來,所以,我們就,你知喇,我們引進一套完整的文藝課程,我們有很好的老師,如此,可令孩子對舞蹈、藝術或戲劇科產生讀、寫及講的興趣。<br>
你知喇,我們有棋藝會,有攝影會,我們想繼續這些會,不一定成功,但基本上孩子留下來讀書,畢業,希望他們能升讀好的高中,能照顧他們的需要。</p>
<p>問﹕你和學生的家長有多少聯繫﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕唔,你知喇,我們掙扎很大,很難得到家長參與校務,我想因為那是西方概念,來學校、講出需要、受到歡迎,你知喇,尤其是華埠的家長,他們工作時間很長,他們只……,文化上,你知喇,他們覺得我的孩子在你的學校,你是專家,你是教育專家,現在我出去做工,你們也做你們的份內事,他們也不知道家長參與等西方概念。我們想家長參與,但很難得到家長前來,就算是家長日,或籌款會,因為我們的家長,你知喇,貧窮,需要長時間工作。我知道今年,市長加添了「家長協調員」的職位,他們特別推動家長參與,<br>
我知道這學校來開會的家長增加了兩、三倍,因為家長協調員親自打電話給他們,告訴他們「請來開會」,所以有一個人用全時間照顧家長、向家長作出調查、找出他們的需要,這是很聰明的做法,是彭博市長的德政,做得很好。</p>
<p>問﹕當家長向你訴說時,你覺得你可以令他們更舒服嗎﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕可以呀。</p>
<p>問﹕像是有個方法,仍然有一個鴻溝,因為你在這裡生長,而他們是……。</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,的確有個鴻溝,然後我—現在這個社區的人口,很多時有很多福建家長前來,而很多時候,我也未能與他們溝通,因為他們講國語及福建話,而我只說廣東話,我發現這鴻溝越來越大,但我依賴翻譯,依賴孩子作翻譯,意思是,有時我要了解孩子,要透過三個人才明白其訊息,我確定當中一些訊息會輾轉消失,所以很難,但我想學校的溫馨,現在學校的文化不同了,令結果也不同,我想最大的分別是有了學校協調員,你知喇,就會做得更好。<br>
問﹕你看見其他轉變嗎﹖
楊﹕在學校﹖</p>
<p>問﹕是呀,從96年至去年你離開時。</p>
<p> 楊﹕嗯,那肯定孩子學習的方式,我是那種不用單一本教科書的人,所以我們的課室擺滿了不同程度的書籍,我真的相信我們找出孩子的程度、孩子的喜好、儘量給孩子那些書及需要的,你知喇,孩子一起學習,比較以發問為主,孩子問問題,當我初來時,學校很肅靜,你不見孩子講話,因為老師安排他們排排坐,主要由教師講話,但現在,你知喇,孩子很高興,和其他孩子講話,我們分成小組讀書,搞文學圈子,你知喇,孩子就學習了,我帶進來不同的人群和學生一起工作,尤其是文藝科,我們時常和美洲華埠博物館、分享藝術長老、亞美藝術中心、等機構保持聯繫,你知喇,對面的李萊街建築師,如你到喜士打街夾愛烈治街看看,我們和李萊街建築師公司合作一個項目,為時兩年,三十名孩子的工作項目,將對面街頭當成課室,改變街角,將一小片土地變得更好,令公眾對社區那角落產生良好深刻的印象。<br>
<br>
然後他們真的做得很好,用建築學的角度做研究,研究那地帶的光線、噪音、噪音的種類、路過人群數目,對這小角落作出規劃,決定如何使用這小片地,令它更吸引人,令人印象更深刻,於是他們產生了願望井的概念,建造了小小的願望井,用鑲嵌階磚堆砌而成,所以如你看看這角落,我不知道你是否看過,看看它,又看看他們在牆壁上砌瓷磚的手工,這是兩年長的項目,然後他們做這些金屬雕塑如風鈴,然後掛起來,像十呎高,他們做得到。上星期我們舉行了開幕禮,真的很好。那是學習的方式,孩子應這樣學習,那很難,因為,家長未習慣那種教學方式,來自中國的孩子也不是這樣學習,所以我們要慢慢實行。我記得在學期初,當我初來時,我們沒有教科書,只有普通書籍,<br>
你知喇,所以家長真的不安,他們說﹕「天呀﹗沒有書,教科書在那裡﹖屈拿高中那裡有教科書呢﹗」我說﹕「你知道嗎﹖」我透過翻譯解釋,學區委員又來支持我,我告訴他們,你知喇,如你到書店買第二次世界大戰的書,你知喇,你不會得到一本教科書,內中有兩、三段講第二次世界的,你可以得到一本書講第二次世界大戰的戰爭,或第二次世界大戰的總統,那是孩子應有的學習方式,因為教科書只是公司賺學校金錢的形式。」<br>
所以慢慢地,你知喇,開始轉變,現在家長不再疑慮,他們明白那是學習的方式,他們以往曾說不願去博物館之類,就會告訴我﹕「嗯,你知喇,他們去年才去過。」就算華人描述遊覽,也直譯為遊玩,或者….,所以我告訴家長﹕「嗯,那是好的,我們去到的時候,會填這個功課表,我們將看看這些,孩子將會學習地球科學,我們去博物館是看石頭。」</p>
<p>所以,他們終於明白到,於是我不用再解說,我們為什麼要走出學校,或探訪其他地方了,那很好。</p>
<p>問﹕聽來,你的思想很前衛進,你如何產生這些觀念﹖因為你似乎來自很傳統的學派。</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,其實,我受益於第二學區,因為我是那區的教師,安東尼.阿法拉度是學區學監,他真的讓教師離開教室,互相學習,互相到訪觀摩教學及閱讀方式,所以我們閱讀了很多專業書籍,討論了很多,看了不同的教導方法及兒童學習方式,做了很多研究,我認為這些令我明白教學是什麼,不單是接受,因為我那時在布碌崙教書,你知喇,他們給你書叫你用,從沒有對話,我從沒參加工作坊,從不用走出校門,<br>
校長從不閱讀書籍,或討論,或說我們應如何教書,我們不曾互訪。但當我到第二學區,我們互訪,然後我就明白,你知喇,以往我的學年像模糊不清,並不刺激,我做只是因為我被叫去做,我知道如果我的成績不好,爸爸會很憤怒。</p>
<p>小時候父母不准我去任何地方,所以我要留在家中閱讀,然後,你知喇,我開始教書時,變成一個較好的閱讀者,在閱讀時能夠發出問題,及加以討論。本來我在工作坊中很難講得好,你知喇,對那本書有反思、如何和日常生活有連繫,對我很難,因為從少不容許我發問、或講述感受或想法,所以我要特別學習如何表達,我想在其中的學習過程,我對教學的看法不同了,因為那不是我以前學習的方式,你知喇,我想我不知道答案,但我想如果學習方式不同的時候,那會有什麼結果﹖我不知道答案。如果我的學校生活截然不同時,我又會變成怎樣﹖</p>
<p>[手提電話打斷了。]</p>
<p>還要多少時間﹖</p>
<p>問﹕嗯,只是,可能還有少部份,有關你的日常工作。</p>
<p>楊﹕好的。</p>
<p>問﹕---什麼事﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,在記憶中很多事,嗯,今天開始工作如常,九時半我就要到教育局,<br>
因為我寫了一名老師的壞表現記錄,放在他的檔案內,他遞了勞資糾紛的投訴,我要去作證,所以我九時半到了那裡。</p>
<p>[第一盒錄音帶第一面完畢,第二面開始]</p>
<p>所以我在那一天,你知喇,像早上孩子上學一樣,我記得我要在九時離開,乘F車到Jay街站,那時約八時五十分,所有孩子都在課室,課堂從八時四十分就開始,我和副校長珍在辦公室內,她是現任校長,我聽到呯一聲,從來未聽過的巨響,珍問我﹕「那是行雷聲嗎﹖」我說﹕「希望是,」那聲音像是我從來未聽過的。</p>
<p>然後警衛走進我的辦公室,他說,「他們爆炸了世貿,」於是我說﹕「老天爺﹗」我馬上…,因為我們距離很近,我做的第一件事,你知喇,打電話給學區,要找出他們知道什麼,我找到諾.莫可維茲,是法律顧問,我說﹕「諾,發生什麼事﹖有沒有聽過,他們爆炸了世貿中心﹖」他說﹕「不。」他說﹕「那是意外,有架小飛機撞到一座世貿。」於是我說﹕「好的。」我說﹕「只要不是恐怖活動就好了,我意思是指,如果是一只小飛機撞進世界還好,我掛上電話,又不是了(?)」</p>
<p>然後,珍又跑來辦公室,她說﹕「愛麗斯,很多人死了,你要出來看看。」因為我們從操場可以看到世貿中心,於是我跑出去,和學校秘書一起,我看見世貿中心很多洞,很多煙噴出來,我們站在那裡,忽然間,第二座世貿好像爆開了,我們站在行人路,並沒有看見飛機撞到它,不知道發生什麼事,我以為第一座大樓發生一些事,燃點著第二座大樓,我們只呆呆站在那裡,我只和秘書喬伊斯互相抱緊,我說﹕「老天爺,發生什麼事﹖」</p>
<p> 我們返回去,那時候,孩子也看見了,因為面向南面、近橋的方向的孩子看見了,我打開擴音器說﹕「你知嘛,意外發生了,一些意外,所以,一切正常,我們如正常活動,一切安好。」</p>
<p>然後,我們在新聞中聽到另一架飛機被劫持正飛往白宮,事情好像有點瘋狂,我們和副校長,繞學校跑了一圈確定我們安全,一切安靜,我又剛聽見一間課室很多人喊叫,於是跑進去,他們看見世貿中心正在倒塌,很恐怖,然後我只有再次提起擴音器,因為首先,我們根本不知道發生什麼事,你知喇,我就說﹕「我知道你們當中一些人看見世貿大樓倒塌,但我們要保持鎮靜,你知道,我們安全,我們很好,我們繼續留在校園中。」</p>
<p>然後學區辦公室打電話來,他們說﹕除非家長接他們,不要讓學生回家,我說﹕「嗯,很好,家長如何知道要接放學呢﹖」我們有一個學委正在學校中,她很好,她打電話到華語的電台,叫他們宣佈,如你是家長,有孩子在學校,請儘快接孩子走,如學生不被接走,學校不會關門。</p>
<p>然後,小孩被接走,家長接他們,但我們不想宣佈,像說,李約翰,你的媽媽來了,來校務處。開始時,我們決定要跑上樓梯取孩子,你知喇,然後我帶走一群孩子,我叫名,帶他們到校務處,老師帶他們到有電話的辦公室打電話,然後在六時四十五分,我想所有孩子都被接走了,但事情很驚險,我想在其後的第二天或第三天,我們遇到一個家庭剛從中國來,孩子第一天入學,和祖母來,她不想,你知喇,她說﹕「他屬於學校,讓他留在學校,」我說﹕<br>
「不,嗯,你知道,這裡發生大災難,人們要,我們要學校清場,因為不安全,你真的要將他帶回家去。」她評論,你知喇,說﹕「我是打仗大的,我住的地方時時打仗。」我想她是從柬埔寨來的,但她是華裔,所以她說﹕「這不算什麼事,我不覺得不安全,他需要在學校。」</p>
<p>所以,我們費勁要令她相信﹕「現在要帶孩子回去。」你知喇,幸好,我們的家庭,沒有,沒有家庭喪失親人,因為他們不在雙子塔工作,你知喇,他們在工廠工作,但地區被毁壞了,因為孩子……,其家長喪失工作,工廠被關閉,這地區好像是高度防備監獄,很困難,你知喇,這學校成為紅十字會的救援中心,我們的學校關閉了另外兩或三天,我們進駐了家庭和偵測系統,然後當學校重開時,我們未能使用地庫的體育場,因為它仍然用作家庭的救援中心。</p>
<p>問﹕你可否講一些後遺症,9/11的其他後遺症﹖你說很多孩子的父母喪失工作…….。</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,他們失去工作,我意思是,我們和孩子做一項工作,記錄他們家中發生的事,學生問我們可否在課後補習,因為他們不想回家,因為父母在家,孩子不開心,他們都,對我說,他們想多做功課,想多點課後補習,因為功課做得好,家長就不需擔心,我們就知道發生一些事,他們想多留在學校。然後我們獲得很多聯邦緊急處理機構撥款(FEMA),我就籌算怎樣處理這筆錢,我們獲九萬元,而我不想只用來做功課,故此我們叫孩子做了調查,問他們想做些什麼,我們也詢問老師學生的意向如何。</p>
<p> 於是我們告訴他們﹕「我們得到九萬元,來設計課後班。」我講得好像,你要寫計劃書,你知喇,一份小型計劃書,我問每一名學校成員,每位老師、輔導、社工,設計你的課程,你知喇,我們有九萬元,很多錢,老師很好,一名老師決定和學生做口述歷史計劃,這就成了這計劃﹔有幾位老師想寫詩文﹔我們的特殊教育老師,在星期六教弱智孩子煮食,我認為都是好,因為,你知喇,他們有智障,腦痙攣,我們可以留他們在學校多三小時,給家長一個休息空間,於是老師完成整個煮食課程,他們在星期六可以買東西及煮食。</p>
<p>我們買了,買了什麼﹖結他,我們的音樂老師教結他,買了十五個結他,同時可教十五個孩子,教他們學結他,你知喇,結他課﹔另一位老師教小提琴,那真的很好。老師可以做他想做,想教的,然後當然我們有平日的,你知喇,測驗準備等,但孩子多了樂趣,我們運用運動室,下棋,我們也有攝影班,那很好,是呀﹗<br>
然後,我們有,如時代週刊,給我們很好錢讀文藝科,於是在上課日我們的孩子有數碼相機及數碼電影製作課程,所以,孩子做很多事情,男孩子編織,很有趣。但那是很難過及很大的沖激,孩子真的不習慣父母時時在家,你知喇,父母以前時時在餐館,很少在家,然後他們只見到家中沮喪的一面,他們不想留在家,這課後活動對他們來說很好。</p>
<p>問﹕他們有沒有,有沒有做一些直接和9/11有關的事情,如寫作或……﹖</p>
<p> 楊﹕有,他們寫很多有關事件,一位老師,帶他們到Nino餐館,Nino有很多消防員及拯救人員的食客,所以學生前去,寫作了一大份有關Nino餐館的記錄文獻,他們籌款,將支票帶給Nino餐館老闆,坐下來和他傾談,他們又訪問了消防員,警員,和英文老師寫下文獻,然後,在學校展示,他們錄影,到現在仍保留著,你知喇,老師仍然在,他們仍然保留這項目,孩子寫書。然後我們有訪客從奧克拉荷馬州來,講述他們遇到的災難,這些對話將學校、社區、及老師團結起來。<br>
然後我們明白,你知喇,我們做這些外展,嘗試確保孩子得到照顧,但我明白老師也需要這些照顧,於是我們嘗試用九萬元及其他款項的一部份,我們招聚老師在一起,做一些藝術治療,於是我們辦了些藝術治療,其實,我們仍然有自由計劃的款項,那是9/11的剩餘撥款,這是第二年撥款,這次辦的藝術治療已有兩年半歷史,我們的孩子仍然獲得撥款,直到年底,可能明年也有。很受老師歡迎,因為老師在午餐聚在一起,繪畫很美妙的圖畫,表達自己的感覺,也有瑜伽導師來教老師瑜伽,我們也有香薰治療。</p>
<p>有三次,人們來按摩,帶來了按摩枱,我們擺設美好的環境,暗燈、蠟燭、音樂,在老師在空堂時簽名,進來,在按摩枱接受按摩,真的很好,老師有不同鬆弛的方或,你知喇,老師也有退修機會,一些老師去了,於是我們明白成年人也需要,你知喇,有時比孩子更需要,因為老師承受的壓力也非常大。</p>
<p>問﹕是呀。</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,照顧一千三百名孩子及百多名老師是一宗龐大工程。</p>
<p>問﹕是呀。</p>
<p>楊﹕你知喇。</p>
<p>問﹕有沒有方法,你如何知道,你覺得你能夠,知道孩子的心情如何嗎﹖</p>
<p>楊﹕是呀,嗯,你知喇,我們有輔導前來,我們有,但你知喇,可能是我的性格及我的處世態度,但我感覺,你知喇,是的,我們有少少傷心的時刻,但也要繼續生活,夠了,我們需要前進,我知道一些教職員多少認為我沒有做得足夠,也不夠憐憫,沒有很多記念,需要繼續評論,繼續記念,想我放更多時間,我知一些老師會這樣想,但我覺得只是,這是我,我是這樣想,我覺得應繼續向前。但有一些老師持相反意見,覺得好像你做得不足夠,你知喇,我們原本可以做得更多,又。但我,我的感覺是,該是前進的時候了。</p>
<p>[訪問完畢]</p>
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Title
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Alice Young
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
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Title
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Dr. Blanche Leung
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Ingrid Dudek
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-06-16
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
Dr. in Chinatown
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: This is the Chinatown Documentation Project, I am
Ingrid Dudek, and let's get started. Could you start just by stating
your name, your date of birth, where you were born?</p>
<p>
Leung: Sure. Do you want my title as well? [Laughs]
Blanche Leung, M.D. Born April 16, 1970, and born in New York City,
New York.</p>
<p>
Q: Were you born in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Leung: No, actually I was born in Queens.</p>
<p>
Q: Is that where you grew up?</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes. I grew up in Elmhurst, Queens.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. And your parents?</p>
<p>
Leung: My parents actually emigrated from -- my mother
from Hong Kong and my father from Canton, China.
</p>
<p>
Q: Could you talk a little bit about their emigration
experiences as you know it?</p>
<p>
Leung: Sure. Sure. As far as I remember, from the
history, my mother grew up in Hong Kong. She actually had come over
with her family from China. They had lived there initially until the
Communists came. So they fled China and went to Hong Kong. My father
also grew up in China, and for a period of time he also went to Hong
Kong. They both ended up going to Taiwan University, and from there
they went to Canada. And from there they came to the United States.</p>
<p>
Q: About what time, then, were they going from Hong Kong
to Taiwan?</p>
<p>
Leung: The exact time I'm not quite sure. I know at
least four -- they were in university, I guess. How long ago? That'd
be quite a guess. Maybe forty, forty-five years ago. When they were
in university. When they went up to Hong Kong I think my mother was
about four or five. My father was a little bit older then. Maybe in
his early teens.
</p>
<p>
Q: So it probably would have been the 60's, maybe.</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes. Roundabout there. No, actually, I'm sorry.
When did they come -- probably even earlier than that. Perhaps in the
mid-forties.</p>
<p>
Q: When they first went to Hong Kong --</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: Probably after the Civil War or during the Civil
War.</p>
<p>
Leung: Right. Right.</p>
<p>
Q: And then when did they meet?</p>
<p>
Leung: Well, they actually were in the same village, or
relatively nearby in villages. So that's how they knew each other.
The families knew each other, and when they went to university they
met up again. Just due to the similarity of, I guess, background.
</p>
<p>
Q: And then when did they come here -- or Canada and
then here?</p>
<p>
Leung: Let me see. I think they went over to Canada in
the 60's. That's when they went to Canada. And to the United States,
they came in the late sixties. Because I was born here in 1970.
[Laughs] They were here I think at least for about a year. So in 1969
they probably came over.</p>
<p>
Q:
And what do your parents do?</p>
<p>
Leung: My father is a retired pharmacist, and actually
he had his own pharmacy right near my office for a good twenty years.
He retired about five years ago. And my mother is a hematology lab
manager at Beth Israel, currently.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did your entire family come over at that time, or
their families, or just your parents?</p>
<p>
Leung: Just my parents. My mother is one of seven
siblings, so she has another sister who is -- I'm sorry -- the second
sister -- my mother's the third in the family -- her second sister
came to California, and that I don't know exactly when she came over.
But I think they were already here in the 60's, by then. She has
also, her youngest sister, the seventh in the family, who came over
[laughs] for college, and she settled in San Diego. But most of the
family stayed in Hong Kong, and since, again, the Communist
changeover with Hong Kong in 1997, a lot of the family has come over
to Canada, actually. [Laughs] But --</p>
<p>
Q: They weren't too excited about the handover?</p>
<p>
Leung: No, not really. Because my mother's oldist
sister still resides in Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>
Q: Does your family go back at all? Do you go back?</p>
<p>
Leung: Haven't gone back to Hong Kong in many years. I
went back when I was nine years old. It was beautiful then. And I
hear now it's just as busy and just as cosmopolitan as New York City.</p>
<p>
Q: So growing up, you were in Queens.</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: And your father had a pharmacy down here.</p>
<p>
Leung:
Yes, he had a pharmacy -- yes, he started when I was nine years old.
And I helped out every so often. [Laughs]
</p>
<p>
Q: Where was the pharmacy?</p>
<p>
Leung: It was located on Lafayette Street and Walker
Street. Right on the corner.</p>
<p>
Q: So when you were helping out, what kind of memories
do you have of that? Or of Chinatown early on?</p>
<p>
Leung: Well, you know, the pharmacy is actually on the
edge of Chinatown. At that time, in the late 70's and early 80's
Chinatown was more clustered around maybe about a block or two from
the pharmacy. But it has since grown quite remarkably. But what I
remember, just shopping with my mom for fresh fish, fruits. I used to
go to a Ping Pong club, which is a converted firehouse, which is
again down the block. [Laughs] For maybe about three or four years.
And other than that -- it was really busy. I remember it was always
very busy. Maybe a little bit smelly. But -- and I also went to
Chinese School. For six years. If you don't count kindergarten -- I
guess that would make it about seven. [Laughs] I did it every
Saturday. Which I dreaded. But now I actually am quite grateful that
I completed it. [Laughs] Some training in my own native tongue.</p>
<p>
Q: Was it Cantonese?</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes. Primarily I learned Cantonese. Although
they offered Mandarin courses as well.
</p>
<p>
Q: So was there any kind of Chinese community in
Elmhurst where you were growing up?</p>
<p>
Leung: No, not really. Where we lived I think we were
the only Chinese family on that block. Mostly Europeans, older
Europeans, grandmothers and grandfathers, settled in that area. And
then, as I was growing up, a lot of the families either moved south,
to Florida, or -- and more different families started moving in. So
it became more a melting pot. So Elmhurst now has a diverse group of
people. Not only Asians -- it's mostly Chinese in terms of the Asian
population. But also there's a lot of Hispanics there. Also some
Russians, and Greeks. So it's quite an interesting mix of people.</p>
<p>
Q:
So Chinatown, then, growing up for you was kind of a family
destination in terms of community and family?</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes. Absolutely. Because of my father's pharmacy
here. My mother would also help run the pharmacy. She, of course,
maintained a full time job as well. So she would come after work to
help my father. And I would come on the weekends and help out with
the inventory and pricing and such like that.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was it mostly Chinese clientele, do you recall, or
what was it?</p>
<p>
Leung: I think -- there wasn't too many, in terms of
Chinese patients, because it's right on the edge, and we're near a
lot of the courts here. So he had more of the police officers, the
judges, so not so much the Chinese. But since his pharmacy was there,
it actually built up a -- I guess it helped in terms of expanding
Chinatown. So that there was more movement in that direction. So now,
more so than before. Definitely.
</p>
<p>
Q: And did he close the pharmacy when he retired?</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes, he closed the pharmacy when he retired.
</p>
<p>
Q: I just want to back up a little bit. I wonder if you
could tell me more about different the things that you did in
Chinatown, because you mentioned the Ping Pong club --</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes. [Laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: -- and Chinese school. What was that like for you?</p>
<p>
Leung: Well, let's see. My earliest memories of --
well, we can do Chinese school first, because I started off with
that. I remember that I was perhaps the crybaby in the group, because
I required my mother to stand near the door to keep me company while
I endured kindergarten. In Chinese. Which actually wasn't much, in
terms of learning your language, but, you know, it's more of a social
interaction situation. Because of the fact that, where I lived, there
was a small group of children who were of Asian descent. And mostly
Chinese, actually.
</p>
<p>
In
fact -- yes. Mostly Chinese. Out of a group of five kids in my class,
let's say -- there were eight grades altogether -- about six or seven
were Asian, one was perhaps Korean, the rest of us were Chinese. But
coming to Chinatown, at least it gave me a lot more exposure to the
Chinese community. Which my parents felt it was very important. They
certainly wanted me to be able to converse in my native tongue. And,
my parents do speak English, also, so I could get away with just
speaking English with them. But they insisted on me going to school,
which I am, again, forever grateful to them for that. And I was
introduced to the characters, the language. The culture, not so much.
From what I remember of Chinese school, you know, there's not much --
we don't have field trips. We would just go and learn just how to
speak, and write it. And memorization was perhaps the bane of my
existence. Because that's what they liked to do, wrote memorization
of stories, basically. So it was a little bit of learning of culture
there, but it was very tedious. To say the least.</p>
<p>
Q: So it was the kind of thing that parents maybe
wanted their children to do to facilitate communication in the home?
And also --</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes. Yes, I would think so. I think most of the
people that I knew, the students there in Chinese school, they had
parents who also had just come over to the United States. Or they
were the -- their parents were the first in the generation to come to
the United States. And we were the first generation born here in the
United States. So it was important for our parents, at least, that
the children not only know their language, but at least know their
culture. So --</p>
<p>
Q: And those children also came from New York City
boroughs?</p>
<p>
Leung: I think from all boroughs, yes. I never really
delved too much into it. It's interesting. My friendships with
schoolmates, let's say, from my English classes, I was much closer to
them than Chinese school. Because it's only once a week that we get
to meet each other. So we didn't form really strong bonds.
Unfortunately. Unless you live in Chinatown. And I didn't, so --</p>
<p>
Q: How many years was that -- Chinese school?</p>
<p>
Leung: Chinese school was six years, from first grade
to sixth. And you could continue past that, but I think I -- at that
time I had enough, to tell you the truth.
</p>
<p>
Q: What other activities and sort of impressions do you
have of Chinatown from growing up?</p>
<p>
Leung: I was mostly on the outskirts of Chinatown. If
anything, Chinatown was a place for me to, well, go to the Ping Pong
club -- that was mostly because my mother felt that I was too thin
and didn't have enough exercise. And therefore needed a little
something to, I guess, bulk me up. [Laughs] So she wanted me to learn
a sport, and I guess Ping Pong was -- as opposed to basketball or
baseball or things like that, or volleyball, she encouraged me to do
that. And also it was very close by to my father's pharmacy so they
can keep a close eye on me.</p>
<p>
Q: That's convenient.</p>
<p>
Leung: Yeah, it is pretty convenient.
</p>
<p>
Q: To jump forward just a little bit, because your
practice now is in Chinatown, so at what point would you say you
developed a different kind of commitment or different kind of
relationship to Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Leung: Well, I have to say, definitely during my
training as a medical student, and then as an intern and resident
training in medicine. I felt that there was definitely a need to be a
liaison, in a way, to the people in my culture, because I've seen in
the hospitals where there are sick Chinese patients who don't say
much of anything. And we're known for -- what's the word? I can think
of it in Chinese, but I'm having difficulty trying to say it in
English. We take a lot, basically. We don't -- we're not very vocal
about being uncomfortable, in pain, and also that communication
barrier is a major issue. And I remember going into some of these
rooms and speaking to the patient, and they suddenly just light up,
because someone can speak their language. And they converse just like
normal people. They're not so stoic. It's just a matter of finding
somebody who has the right communication key. And I found that I
could do something, at least in that respect. Finding this place here
is -- I love working in Chinatown. Truly. Because of the patient
population. Most of my patients -- a lot of my patients -- are
elderly. And to me they're like grandma and grandpa coming in.
They're always concerned about my health [laughs], and they bring
nice little goodies to make sure that we don't look like we're
starved, or overworked. They're a very kind group of people, very
caring. And I feel that I can give so much to them. And I'm happy to
be able to converse with them, also, and take care of them.</p>
<p>
Q: Where did you go to medical school? What was your
training?</p>
<p>
Leung: I went to NYU School of Medicine. I entered in
1992 and I graduated in 1996. Subsequently I did my residency, my
internship and residency, also at New York University -- the Medical
Center. And then I had my training in Bellevue Hospital, which sees a
lot of Chinese patients, mostly because they don't have insurance. So
they go to Bellevue Hospital for some care. The private hospital
that's associated with NYU -- affiliated with NYU -- is Tisch
Hospital. There are not so many patients there that are Chinese.
However, since I've graduated and become an attending, there are a
lot more Chinese speaking patients there. Definitely.</p>
<p>
Q: And your experience at Bellevue was when you sort of
had this sense of a community need?</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes, definitely. When I was an intern and
resident I definitely saw a lot of patients who sort of were
wallowing in the shadows. They were getting medical care, but in
terms of an emotional connection to their physicians, or to health
care workers, there wasn't too much there. At least, I felt -- it's
not that the staff didn't care. It's just, they couldn't communicate
well enough with them. So, and of course, I would try to help
whenever I could. If they ever needed a translator they'd run to one
of us who could speak the language. And I was happy to help.</p>
<p>
Q: And the decision to pursue a medical career, this
came sort of naturally out of your family experience? How did your
parents respond?</p>
<p>
Leung: Well, I do fit into that stereotype of the
parents strongly encouraging a pursuit in the medical profession. It
also was influenced by the fact that both my parents had experience
in the medical field, my father being a pharmacist and my mother
having managed -- now she manages the hematology laboratory at Beth
Israel. So, yeah, you can say it was placed in my head, the idea. At
least when I was very, very young I got a full set of a medical
encyclopedia -- 1973. [Laughs] A full set. I forget how many volumes.
But luckily for my parents, I actually enjoy it. [Laughs] Although it
is a long haul.
</p>
<p>
Q: And can you talk a bit about being a Chinese woman
in the medical profession, especially since your mother is a doctor
and you are too?</p>
<p>
Leung: Oh, my mother's not actually a physician. No,
she's not. She is -- she originally was a laboratory technician, and
she worked her way up, and is now in the managerial position at Beth
Israel. But as a Chinese female physician, I didn't feel any
different, I don't think, than anybody else training. Except for,
it's not just being Chinese, but just being female. [Laughs] Where,
as a physician it's not quite evident to some patients that I am one.
And we tend to, I guess, look a little younger than other people, I
suppose. So a lot of patients assume that we're nurses or nurses'
aide, and staff, but not as physicians. So every so often I get
mistaken, not to be a physician. So I try to grin and bear it as
graciously as possible. [Laughs] Despite the fact that I've spent a
lot of years trying to pursue, you know, my career as a physician, so
-- but do you want to be a little more specific as to -- ?</p>
<p>
Q: No. I'm just wondering if you have a particular
perspective on it, if you feel it's a male dominated field
specifically or --</p>
<p>
Leung: Certain -- I think yes. It still is a male
dominated field. But women are making more of an impact, certainly in
our training classes, I guess, during residency. There are more
female physicians than before. At least, I'd like to think so. But I
think the ratio is still not fifty-fifty. I can't say I've
experienced any major discrimination, fortunately [laughs] that I can
think of. And nothing certainly that would cause me to be -- to feel
that there's some injustice that needs to be immediately rectified.
However, it'd be nice to see more Chinese female physicians, or just
female physicians in general, in areas of administration. Because I
think it's important to see that in society.</p>
<p>
Q: I wonder, to talk a little bit more, you touched on
it briefly, about the kind of resources available to Chinese speaking
patients. Can you talk a bit about the kind of clients you see here,
generally, and specifically the Chinese clients? Maybe do you have
clients that don't have insurance, or things like this?</p>
<p>
Leung: In terms of the resources that are available to
the Chinese community here, I know that a lot of the pharmaceutical
companies have tried to help the community in terms of getting
information, medical and health information, across to the community.
It's a very concentrated population here in Chinatown. Certainly,
nowadays, I see more diabetes and hypertension in this population.
And considering that we're not usually, or generally, obese, as a
group, it's a bit concerning. So some of the pharmaceutical companies
have taken it upon
themselves to try to translate some of their material into
Chinese, and I find it extremely helpful. But a lot of times patients
just want to be treated, not necessarily educated. And some of them
don't even read Chinese. So that becomes a problem, too. But I feel
it's really important for my patients to understand what the disease
process is, and why we're treating them with the medications. Because
it becomes helpful later on to other people who may need to help them
with treatment. And they're able to converse about the disease. But
the resources in the community -- there is, also, the Chinatown
Health Community, a center, which caters to people who don't have
insurance. I'm not too familiar with their procedures, but I know
that they have that available. And certainly NYU Downtown Hospital,
which is formally Beekman Hospital, does cater to the Chinese
community and try to be as accessible as possible by having bilingual
or even trilingual signs for patients, in Spanish and Chinese, so
they can navigate a little bit better.
</p>
<p>
Q: What is your general practice here? Is it family
practice?</p>
<p>
Leung: Well, I'm in internal medicine. Family practice
encompasses a much larger group of people, so I actually just work
with adult patients. That means age eighteen and above. And most of
my patients are elderly, but I do have a group of young healthy
patients who come in, and it ranges from all economic levels as well.
And all walks of life. It's quite -- relatively diverse. I wouldn't
say that it's concentrated in one particular area. So it's a nice
group of patients that I have.
</p>
<p>
Q: And they come here because they live locally?</p>
<p>
Leung: A lot of them do, yes. Some patients, they live
further away, but by word of mouth -- I'm grateful to this, as well
-- they come and see me, because I see their friends or maybe their
family members. Like I've seen their grandchild, and now she wants
grandma to be taken care of by me, so that's how I have some of my
referrals.</p>
<p>
Q: Then I'm wondering what kind of picture of Chinatown
as a community you would paint from the perspective of your practice,
in terms of diversity, age, economic background --</p>
<p>
Leung:
Oh, it's an extremely diverse group. For the density of the
population here it's a really, really diverse group. In such a small
area, too. It's quite amazing. Which is probably why they're
expanding a little bit more, down south, and down -- east or west?
[Laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: So you get a whole range of ages and economic
backgrounds.</p>
<p>
Leung: Absolutely.</p>
<p>
Q: I'd also like to talk a little bit about your 9/11
experiences and your perspective on Chinatown post 9/11. Where were
you on September 11th? Were you here?</p>
<p>
Leung: No. I hadn't even gotten down to Chinatown. It
was a day that I was scheduled to come down to Chinatown. And I was
actually at the [NYU] Medical Center. I was attending a conference.
And after the conference let out, I remember, it was a little bit
before nine o'clock, and going into the doctor's lounge several of my
colleagues were mentioning that there was some kind of commotion
going on. Let me back up a little bit. Even when we were in the
conference, towards the end of the conference an announcement was
made to us, and it was stated that anyone who needs to go downtown
cannot travel by the FDR. There was no mention made about trains. And
then I went to the doctor's lounge, and my colleagues were saying to
me that -- one actually was playing tennis and had seen -- some
planes had flown by, and then he found out later that there was --
that the towers were hit. The twin towers were hit by airplanes. Soon
enough we realized that we couldn't communicate with anybody. And
actually, I had gone into the hospital, further up into the hospital
to see some of my patients, and while I was there I actually saw, I
believe it was probably the second tower fall. And it was so
terrible, just to see that. So many people were in tears, just
watching that. And really heart wrenching to see. Even brings tears
to my eyes now.</p>
<p>
Q: No, it's clearly difficult for a lot of people to
talk about --</p>
<p>
Leung: Right. Definitely.</p>
<p>
Q: What happened next for you?</p>
<p>
Leung:
Well, I went to see my patients. [Laughs] And thereafter, I had gone
down to the ground area, and it was -- outside the hospital it was
all chaos. I was trying -- first I had to figure out what was going
on in Chinatown. Because we had our secretaries who were supposed to
-- they actually, I believe they came in. And it was a matter of
trying to get them safe home. Obviously we had to close the office.
And we were concerned about how to contact our patients, but at that
point in time I think everybody realized that we weren't having
office hours, so -- and then it was a matter of dispensing aid
locally. The hospital, the ER, had a lot of physicians already. There
were too many physicians. So a lot of us were, you know, were told to
just go away [laughs] and if we were needed they would contact us, so
-- so I went to my office, in the midtown area, just to check to see
what was going on there, try to contact whoever we needed to. Our
secretaries were safe, and then it was a matter of getting to a safe
place. Wherever that may be. I remember it was all chaos on the east
side, because I did walk a little bit further west just to see what
was going on there. And on the west side, it was almost a ghost town.
Because everyone had traveled -- started to travel east, and they
were trying to get across to Queens and whatnot. And one of my
secretaries had to walk from 37th Street, across the Brooklyn Bridge,
to get home. She survived that. I'm glad she did. It was -- it was
incredible. Incredible.
</p>
<p>
Q: And where were you living at the time?</p>
<p>
Leung: I was living in the Bronx. So I had to find my
way. Either I could stay in the city which, at the time, was not the
most pleasant thought if there was going to be another attack.
However, if need be, I'll stay in the office. But I somehow managed
to go over to Queens. Because my parents were in Queens, and I was
concerned about them. My mother was in Manhattan, and she says she
was running the hematology lab. She was -- she stayed. Because she
had to oversee whatever was coming through. I don't think Beth Israel
was hit much. It was mostly St. Vincent's, which was closest to the
site. And my father was home safe, fortunately.
</p>
<p>
I was able to travel into Queens on the ferry, which I
never paid attention to and didn't quite realize it was there. But
then I was stuck in Long Island City, and no trains were running, and
no cars, and certainly nobody to call. And there was a good Samaritan
who had a jeep, and she stopped and said, 'Anybody want to go to
where we're going? I'll drop you off wherever I can.' So she took a
few of us, and dropped us off. So I just walked back to my parents'
home, just to make sure they were doing okay.</p>
<p>
[END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]</p>
<p>
Q:
What was the mood downtown, in Chinatown, in the aftermath?
</p>
<p>
Leung: Yeah. Chinatown was extremely quiet after that.
Usually you see a lot of hustle and bustle. You can never walk
anywhere without stepping on someone’s toes. And then we had
come back aI guess I don’t remember how many days we were
closed maybe a couple days. We got down and there was barely anybody
walking. No deliveries being made. It was kind of sad to see. It
changed the community so much. But they recovered. Slowly, there were
more people coming around again, consider it a place to see, of
course, in New York. And it's been almost three years since then.</p>
<p>
Q: When did you have a sense that Chinatown returned to
a kind of normalcy, or it felt familiar again?</p>
<p>
Leung: It probably took a few months to recover.
Exactly when, I don't know. I don't think I was paying attention to
it too much. Our patients continued to come, though. In the beginning
there were a lot of requests for air purifiers, because there was --
I think by word of mouth, certainly there was no posting or listing
that I know of, that there were air purifiers being given our to the
community with a doctor's prescription. So I wrote them out for my
patients so that they can obtain it. Other than that, I don't see any
major impact on the health community in terms of outreach as a result
of 9/11. I think I'm a little more sensitive to people with
respiratory complaints nowadays, because I've noticed that there are
a lot more respiratory complaints now than before. Whether or not it
is due to 9/11 I really don't know. But I don't see any major changes
in terms of the outreach.
</p>
<p>
Q: So you already had your Chinatown practice at that
point?</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes. Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: But you didn't see any major effects in terms of
health from your clients or patients at that point?</p>
<p>
Leung: Major effects on my patients' health -- not
really. Not a significant impact. But, you know, the only thing I
recall is just air purifiers, to tell you the truth. Other than that,
not much of anything else. Speaking to my colleagues who also have
Chinatown practices, they don't recall any other programs that were
set up specifically to address that. I have seen a few cases of,
perhaps, post traumatic stress associated with 9/11 attacks, which is
understandable. But it's not a large portion of my patient
population.
</p>
<p>
Q: So people were looking for the purifiers -- ?</p>
<p>
Leung: Yeah, interestingly enough. The Chinese
community is a very closed community when it comes to mental health.
There's not been much in terms of complaints or concerns from my
patients regarding that. And specifically asking them about will not
draw much in terms of positive responses, anyway. They usually
belittle</p>
<p>
it and say, well, it's maybe fatigue and whatnot. So in
terms of a clear diagnosis of the emotional impact of 9/11, I can't
say that I've been able to get a good handle on that.</p>
<p>
Q: It's interesting, because studies have claimed that
Asian cultures attribute emotional stress to physical ailments more
often, and is that something you feel tends to happen with your
clients, maybe?</p>
<p>
Leung: I'm sorry. Say that again.</p>
<p>
Q: In the sense that rather than saying, 'I'm
depressed', you have back pain. Or it sort of gets displaced that
way.</p>
<p>
Leung: It's possible. I think, in general, the Chinese
do internalize a lot of the emotions. We're not very vocal about it.
So perhaps it is converted, so to speak, into physical ailments.
That's a possibility. Definitely is a possibility. Not that I've seen
it too much, though, in my practice. Or I'm not really actively
looking for it, so it's kind of hard to find.</p>
<p>
Q: And you haven't seen necessarily, for example, your
elderly patients with increased respiratory problems, or it's hard to
measure at this stage?</p>
<p>
Leung: I personally feel that I've become more short of
breath lately. So -- but I wasn't even in the direct area.</p>
<p>
I was thirty blocks up. More than that. But I feel that
my health has been a little different from what I usually feel, so I
can just imagine the people who live here in Chinatown probably have
even more symptoms, because they were close by. I do recall some of
my patients saying that the smell of the debris lingered for days and
days on end. It took months for it to clear. And I come down to this
office about three times a week, so -- although brief, but it
probably had some effect. But in terms of trying to ferret it out in
my patients -- I tend to think that
maybe there is an increase in respiratory complaints.
But scientifically, I don't whether or not they're just -- I mean,
statistically speaking, I don't know whether or not it really is an
increase, or it's the status quo.
</p>
<p>
Q: But because it seems there have been different
initiatives targeted towards downtown residents, some of them
Chinatown specific, some of them not, but you don't have a sense of
that necessarily getting through to your patients?
</p>
<p>
Leung: I don't specifically ask them. I'm sure that
there are programs, but I'm not terribly aware of them.
</p>
<p>
I haven't had patients ask me, specifically, about
programs available. Specifically post 9/11 programs. So</p>
<p>
I don't know if they're aware of them through the
newspaper. I don't read the Chinese newspaper, though. So
</p>
<p>
I can't say that I've actually seen them. So they might
have been posted, but I'm not -- I don't know about them.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have a sense, then, that Chinatown has
rebounded since 9/11?</p>
<p>
Leung: Yes. I think Chinatown has somewhat recovered
from that. There are definitely a lot more people walking around
nowadays, and I'm practically stepping on everybody else's toes.
[Laughs] So it's nice to see that Chinatown is still up and kicking.
Alive and kicking, rather. And -- yeah, I think they recovered. To
some degree. But I know -- at least, looking at some of the
newspapers -- there are still, the impact of 9/11, still present.
Especially around Park Row. In the newspaper today there are -- I
believe there is legal action that has been started regarding that
area. Because businesses have closed as a result of barricading those
areas. So there's still a lasting impact, despite the attempt to
safeguard the people. So --</p>
<p>
Q: I'm wondering, too, given the scale of your parents'
initial investment in Chinatown when your father had a pharmacy, and
your experiences then, and now with your position with a practice in
Chinatown, what do you see as your future -- personal or professional
--in relation to Chinatown?</p>
<p>
[cell phone]</p>
<p>
Q: I just wanted to repeat the question. Given your
parents' and your father's initial place in Chinatown, with his
pharmacy, and your experience early on, and now later you have a
practice here. I'm wondering how you view your position in Chinatown
in the future, or where you see yourself.</p>
<p>
Leung: I definitely see myself continuing my practice
in Chinatown. I love being here. I love the patient population. I
feel that I do fill a void, in a way, I suppose -- that I am here
with my peers, who are also Chinese,
</p>
<p>
caring for our people. It's always a good feeling when
you can do something like that.</p>
<p>
Q: Does that feel also more common now? I mean, are
there lots of Chinese-run medical practices in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Leung: That's a good question. Not necessarily. I don't
think so. However, I think physicians who are graduating, newly
graduated of physicians [clearing throat] -- sorry -- are aware of
Chinatown as a possible place to start their practice, or to train
further, I suppose. You know, I don't actually ask my colleagues
about that. But most of the practices here in Chinatown try to seek
out similar types of physicians, because it's a little unusual to
have people who don't speak the language practice here. Not that it
doesn't exist. There are certainly physicians who are not Chinese,
and who don't speak Chinese, who have their practices here. Not every
day, but at least once or twice a week. So. Certainly we do need
another orthopedic surgeon down in Chinatown. I think we overwhelmed
one of them who is here. [Laughs] I think he's the only one here. But
there's a lot of room for growth. There's a lot of patients here who
need physicians, in all specialties. So, there's a lot of room to
grow.</p>
<p>
Q: Well, I guess I asked that because it seems to be
one of the trends, is almost the reverse of what you've
</p>
<p>
done. That people who've maybe grown up in Chinatown
tend to move out and away. And rather than doing that, you've
actually gravitated here, to provide something for the community.</p>
<p>
Leung: Interestingly enough, I guess because I grew up
a little bit in Chinatown -- it was mostly weekends, and sometimes
after school when I was in high school, coming to Chinatown -- at
first, I didn't like it so much, that I had to come here, to
Chinatown. But there is a comfort level for me, to be in Chinatown.
Interestingly enough. I've never really consciously thought about it,
but I feel very comfortable. And I feel needed, and wanted, and I
think I have services that I can provide. So that's why I came back
to Chinatown. And I think I'm going to stay. [Laughs] For as long as
they need me.
</p>
<p>
Q: What is your sense, then, of Chinatown as a growing
and changing community? Because there's always some political or
other kinds of concerns about the way the demographics change, or the
way the city relates to
Chinatown as a neighborhood. What is your sense of that, in
terms of your position here? I mean, it'll remain a kind of viable
community for your practice -- ?
</p>
<p>
Leung: Absolutely. There's always a core group of
people, I think, that are going to stay in Chinatown. Granted that
there are smaller versions that are developing in different parts of
the city. Certainly in Elmhurst there's one that's growing. In
Flushing there's a huge population, that's slowly growing. But
Chinatown is its origin in terms of New York City, Chinese heritage I
guess -- it all started in Chinatown. And I think most people do end
up coming here. For some, maybe a short period of time, but there's a
lot -- there may be a lot of turnover now, I don't know exactly what
the demographics are, and how they're going to change. But I think
this is the base. And, from here, it branches out. So I think it'll
always be here. At least I hope it'll be here -- during my lifetime,
at least.
</p>
<p>
Q: It would be really interesting to see how the
demographics of your practice change as a kind of measurement of
that.</p>
<p>
Leung: Well, I'm certainly going to be here. And I
guess -- I won't change too much, in terms of I don't think I'm going
to move to another location. Unless the rent requires it [laughs].
However, certainly my patient population can change over time. It's
hard to predict, in terms of what political climate it's going to be,
environmental climate, nowadays. So -- there may be change later on,
but it's been here long enough. So I think it'll probably weather --
'it' meaning Chinatown -- will probably weather the changes and still
be here. I really think it'll still be here.</p>
<p>
Q: Well, thank you very much. I don't want to take up
too much more of your time.</p>
<p>
Leung: Thank you.</p>
<p>
[END OF INTERVIEW]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕ 這是華埠文獻計劃,我是英格里德.杜特,好,現在開始,你可否告訴我你的名字、出生日期,在那裡出生﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕當然可以,你要我講名銜嗎 [笑聲]﹖ Blanche Leung,醫生,1970年4月16日,在紐約州紐約市出生。</p>
<p>問﹕你是否在華埠出生﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕不,我其實在皇后區出生的。</p>
<p>問﹕那是你長大的地方﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕是的,我在皇后區艾姆斯特長大。</p>
<p>問﹕是的,那你父母呢﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我雙親其實﹕母親來自香港,父親來自中國廣東省。</p>
<p>問﹕可以講一些你所知的,他們移民來美的經驗嗎﹖ <br>
梁﹕當然可以,我還記得家庭歷史,母親在香港長大,她是跟隨家人從中國移民去的,一家人本在中國住,直到共產黨到來,他們就從中國逃到香港來﹔我爸爸亦在中國長大,到過香港一段時期。他們倆都在台灣大學唸書,一起到加拿大,從加拿大再到美國。</p>
<p>問﹕他們那時是否由香港到台灣﹖</p>
<p> 梁﹕我不知道確實時間,我知道他們至少唸4年大學,是多久以前了﹖讓我猜想一下,可能是40、45年前在大學,在香港嘛,我想母親當時4、5歲﹔父親就較大一點,可能在十來歲。</p>
<p>問﹕所以,可能在六十年代。</p>
<p>梁﹕對,大約是,不對,對不起,其實他們較早期來美國,可能在四十年代中期。</p>
<p>問﹕當他們初到香港時……,</p>
<p>梁﹕是。</p>
<p>問﹕那可能是在內戰後,或是內戰時期。</p>
<p>梁﹕對,對。</p>
<p>問﹕他們什麼時候相識﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕嗯,他們原本是同鄉,或是隔鄰鄉里,老早就認識,兩個家庭也互相認識,在大學又重逢,我猜想只因為背景相同的緣故。 </p>
<p>問﹕然後他們何時來到這裡﹖或從加拿大到這裡﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕讓我看看,我想他們60年代到加拿大,他們到了加拿大,然後60年代尾到美國,因為我在1970年出生 [笑聲],所以他們應在這裡至少一年,1969年時,他們可能已來到。</p>
<p> 問﹕你的父母做什麼﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我父親是退休藥劑師,其實他在我辦公室附近開設了自己的藥房二十年,在五年前退休﹔我母親現在是以色列醫院血科實驗室經理。</p>
<p>問﹕你的家庭,即你父母全家都在那時移民來了嗎﹖或只有你的父母來﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕只有我父母來,母親在七個兄弟姐妹排行第三,她有二家姐在加州,對不起,我也不知道她什麼時候來,他們一家在60年代已定居,她有最小的妹妹在70年代來這裡 [笑聲]唸大學,在聖地牙哥定居,但家中大部份人居住香港,1997年香港交還中國共產黨,很多家庭成員其實移民到加拿大 [笑聲],但是……</p>
<p>問﹕他們對香港移交中國覺得困擾﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕不,因為我母親最大的姐姐仍然留在香港。 </p>
<p>問﹕你家人有沒有返過香港﹖你有沒有回去過﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我九歲去過一次,其後已經多年沒有回香港了,那時香港很美麗,我聽聞說,現在香港和紐約市一樣都是繁盛都會。 </p>
<p>問﹕所以你在皇后區長大。</p>
<p>梁﹕是。</p>
<p>問﹕你父親在這裡有藥房。</p>
<p> 梁﹕是,他有一間藥房,在我九歲時開設,我時時到店裡幫手。[笑聲]</p>
<p>問﹕藥房在那裡﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕藥店在拉菲逸街夾獲加街,就在右邊轉角。</p>
<p>問﹕所以你記不記得你到店裡幫忙的事情,或對華埠有什麼最初的記憶﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕嗯,你知道,藥房當時在華埠的邊緣,在70年代尾及80年代初,華埠集中心地是在藥房以外的一、兩條街,但後來發展大了,但我只記得陪同母親到市場買魚及水果,我也到乒乓球會玩耍,那地方由消防局改裝的,就在街尾 [笑聲],有三、四年之多。除此以外,華埠挺忙碌,我記得時時人們熙來攘往,也有些腥味,我亦上了中文學校六年,如連幼稚園一起算,有七年之多 [笑聲],每星期六都上學,我最怕,但現在回想起來,唸中文課很好,[笑聲],學了一點母語。</p>
<p>問﹕你學廣東話嗎﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕是的,我主要學廣東話,但他們提供廣東話或國語兩種課程。</p>
<p>問﹕那在你長大的艾姆斯特有華人社區嗎﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕實際沒有,我們的居所是那條街唯一的華人家庭,大部份居民是歐裔、年紀大的歐洲人,其祖母及祖父輩就在那裡定居,然後,我在那裡長大後,這些家庭都南遷到佛羅里達州,然後不同背景的家庭開始遷入,該區就成了民族大溶爐,艾姆斯特居住了不同的群族,不單止亞裔,其中大部份是華人,還有很多西語裔,還有一些俄裔人及希臘人,各異其趣的族裔混雜在一起。</p>
<p> 問﹕所以那時華埠是否你成長的主要家庭及社區﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕是的,絕對時,由於我父親這裡有藥房,我的母親亦協助經營藥房,她當然也有自己的全職工作,她是在上班後幫助父親的,我就在周末幫忙盤點存貨及打價錢等等。</p>
<p>問﹕你記得大部份顧客是華裔嗎,或是其他人﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我想中國病人不算太多,因為藥房只在華埠的邊緣,我們貼近很多法院,有很多警官、法官前來,不盡是華人,但自從開店以來,華埠也漸漸擴張,華人顧客越來越多。</p>
<p>問﹕他在退休後關閉了藥房嗎﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕是,他在退休後關閉了藥房。</p>
<p>問﹕現在我們回頭再講,你在華埠有那些不同活動﹖因為你剛才提及乒乓球會。</p>
<p>梁﹕是的 [笑聲]。</p>
<p>問﹕-- 又提及中文學校,那時的中文學校是怎樣的﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕讓我想想有關華埠的最早記憶,我先說中文學校,因為那是我最早開始的活動,我是班中的喊包,因為我要求母親在幼稚園課室門外站立,陪我上課。參加中文學校的目的,並不在乎學到多少,而是學習人際關係,因為那些地方有一群亞裔小孩子,大部份是中國人。</p>
<p> 這一群小孩子相差八個年級之多,--約有6-7名是亞裔,一名韓裔,其餘是華人,<br>
能夠來到華埠,總算接觸過華人社區,我父母覺得這很重要,他們希望我曉得母語。我父母通曉英語,所以我可以轉用英語和他們說話,但他們仍堅持我唸中文學校,這點我要感謝他們,我學了字體及讀音,但並不覺得受到很多的文化感染。我不記得在中文學校的片段,那裡又沒有旅行,我們去只學讀音及寫字,背書是我的致命傷,他們基本上喜歡寫一個故事叫我們背誦,但我們至少學到一丁點文化,但十分沉悶。</p>
<p>問﹕父母們為了加強家庭溝通帶孩子到中文學校,此外還有什麼….﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕是的,我想是,我想大部份我認識的中文學校學生,他們的父母剛來美國,或他們的父母是第一代移民美國的人,我們是第一代在美國出生的人,故此我們的父母認為孩子不但要懂中文,還要懂得中國文化,所以……。</p>
<p>問﹕那些孩子亦來自紐約市各區嗎﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我想是從各區來的,我沒有留意,那是很有趣的,據我看來,我和同學的友誼,從英文班來的比從中文學校來的較為深厚,因為一星期中文學生只見面一次,難以有深厚的連繄,除非你住華埠,而我又不是,所以……。</p>
<p>問﹕你唸中文學校多少年﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕在中文學校唸了六年,由一年級至六年級,你可繼續進修,但老實講,那時我想受夠了。</p>
<p>問﹕在長大過程中,你對華埠其他活動有印象嗎﹖</p>
<p> 梁﹕我大部份時間在華埠以外活動,如說有感覺,華埠是一個我參加乒乓球會的地方,那是因為我母親認為我太瘦,運動不足,所以,我想她要訓練我強壯一點 [笑聲],讓我練習一種運動,與籃球、壘球或排球之類相較之下,她鼓勵我學乒乓球,同時那裡靠近父親的藥房,他們便於照顧我。</p>
<p>問﹕那很方便。</p>
<p>梁﹕是啊,頗為方便。</p>
<p>問﹕再回顧一下,你在華埠執業,你在什麼時候對華埠產生特別的使命感,或認為華埠與你有特別的關係﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我要說,自從我接受醫科訓練,成為醫學生、實習醫生及院士後,我覺得有需要成為社區的橋樑,服務我的同胞,因為我在醫院看見很多華裔病人不能表達自己,我們被稱為…..,我不知道用中文怎麼說,也不能用英文表達,華人基本上忍受很多,不會,也不善於用言語表達一些身體不適或痛楚,溝通是一個大障礙。我記得進入病房和他們談話,他們就豁然開朗起來,因為如果有人曉得和他們講話,他們就會像正常人一般講話,只要找到一些可以溝通的人,他們原來不是真的很堅忍的。我覺得至少在這方面,我可以做一點事情,我愛在這華埠工作,真的,因為我們的父母大部份是老人家,入到醫院就好像照顧我的祖父、祖母一樣。這些老人家也關心我的健康 [笑聲],他們又給我一些點心什麼的,讓我不會看來肚餓、或工作過勞,他們很仁慈,很關心我,我覺得可以報答他們,很高興可以和他們談話,同時可以照顧他們。</p>
<p>問﹕你在那兒唸醫學院﹖受過什麼訓練﹖</p>
<p> 梁﹕我就讀紐約大學醫學院,在1992年開始唸醫科,1996年畢業,然後在該院的醫療中心實習及駐診。其後到表維醫院接受訓練,那裡看見很多華裔病人,因為他們大部份沒有健保,都到表維醫院接受診治,那附屬紐約大學的私人醫院是Tisch醫院,華裔病人不算很多,但在我畢業後駐診時,說華語的病人越來越多。</p>
<p>問﹕你在表維的經驗是否令你感受到社區的需要呢﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕是,絕對是,當我還是實習醫生時,很多徬徨無依的病人雖然獲得醫療護理,但是他們和醫生及醫護人員沒有很多感情上的聯繫,並不是職員沒有關心,只是雙方沒有足夠的溝通。理所當然地,我嘗試儘量幫忙,如他們需要翻譯員,院方就找我們,我樂意幫忙。</p>
<p>問﹕你決定從事醫療生涯時,是否自然由於家庭的影響﹖你的父母覺得怎樣﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕嗯,我是那些典型的孩子,父母十分鼓勵我從事醫療行業,尤是是我父母本來就從事醫療工作﹕父親是藥劑師,母親是以色列醫院的血液實驗室經理,所以,是啊,我從小就有醫療的概念,我在非常年幼時就擁有一整套1973年的醫療百科全書 [笑聲],一整套,我忘記有多少冊了。但我父母引以為慰的,是我真正享受此行業 [笑聲],雖然也得經過長期的鍛練。</p>
<p>問﹕請你講述一下中國女性從事醫療行業的感想,尤其是你母親是醫生,你又是醫生﹖</p>
<p> 梁﹕噢,我母親並不是醫生,她原來是實驗室技術員,漸漸擢升到以色列醫院的管理階層。作為華裔女醫生,我不覺得很特別,我和其他人一樣接受訓練,除了---不單是華裔---也因為是一名女醫生[笑聲]之外,病人並不以為我是醫生,我猜是因為我看來較年青之故,所以他們時時誤會我是護士、助理護士、或是醫務職員之類,總之不是醫生,我時時被誤會不是醫生時,我會大方地承受 [笑聲],雖然我花了這麼多年接受醫生的訓練。你是否要我仔細地講感受……﹖</p>
<p>問﹕不,我只是想問你是否有特別的看法,你是否覺得這是男性主導的社會,抑或是……﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕肯定,我覺得是,現在仍然是男性主導的社會,但在我們受訓的課程及醫院駐診中,婦女的影響力亦漸漸增加,社會上多了女醫生,我覺得是,但男女比例仍未達到50比50,我不能說我經歷過明顯的歧視,幸好我想不到 [笑聲],我想不到有不公平的現象需要立刻改正,但是,我樂於見到在行政部門有更多華裔女醫生,或女醫生任職,因為社會大勢所趨。</p>
<p>問﹕你剛才稍稍提及華語病人的資源問題,我希望你多發表意見,講述有關病人,特別是華裔病人的問題﹖或者,你有沒有一些沒有保險的病人﹖或諸如此類的問題﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕就華裔社區所得的資源,我知道很多藥廠想為社區提供更多資訊,醫療及健康資訊,華埠人口很集中,現在這人口群中患上糖尿病及血壓高的越來越多,而我們並不是狂食之輩,這些問題就更值得探討。一些藥廠想翻譯一些材料為中文,這非常有用,但很多時,<br>
病人只想接受治療,並不想接受教育。一些病人連中文也不懂,也是一個問題。病人應明白患病的因由、為什麼要治療,這些都有助他的醫療人員,讓病人能討論病況等。但在社區資源方面……,華埠健康社區中心照顧那些沒有健保的人,我不太明白那些步驟,只知道他們提供這些服務。而紐約大學下城醫院--以前稱為碧文醫院--服務華人社區,為病人提供雙語服務,甚至三種語言的標語,包括西語及華語,令病人可駕馭自如。</p>
<p>問﹕你的專科是什麼﹖是否家庭科﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕嗯,我是內科專科。家庭科接觸多類人,而我大部份只對成年病人,指十八歲及以上者,大部份病人是老人,但也有年輕健康的病人找我,他們來自各個經濟階層、各行各業,及不同背景,不能一概而言,所以我有好多類的病人。</p>
<p>問﹕他們來這裡是否因為他們住在附近﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕很多是,有些病人就住得遠一些,因口碑而來,我也感激他們,他們找我,是因為我醫治過他們的親友,例如我醫治過他們的孫兒,現在孫兒帶祖母來給我照顧,所以我獲得一些轉介。</p>
<p>問﹕你從事醫生工作,怎樣描述華埠的社區人士,他們的多樣化、年齡、及經濟背景﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕噢,他們極為多樣化,人口密集繁多,不同組別聚在這麼小小的地方,令人驚訝,他們也正擴展中,向南、向下,亦向東、或西方發展 [笑聲]。</p>
<p> 問﹕所以你的病人來自不同年齡及經濟背景﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕絕對是。</p>
<p>問﹕請你講述一些9/11的經驗,及你在9/11後在華埠的經歷。9/11發生時你在那裡﹖你在這裡嗎﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕沒有,我還未到華埠,那天應到華埠上班,當時我在[紐約大學]醫療中心,正參加一項會議,會後出來在九時前一點,我正走到醫生休息室,幾位同事正提及發生一些暴亂。讓我回到前一點再講,就在會議的尾聲中,我們接到一項宣佈,說沒有FDR線地車到下城,也沒有講其他地鐵改動。當我走到醫生休息室時,一名同事告訴我,他打網球時看見飛機掠空而過,後來知道飛機撞到世貿中心,兩座姐妹樓被飛機撞了,不久我們發現通訊中斷。後來我進到醫院內層巡視病人,在醫院向外看時,其實看見第二座世貿倒下,景象令人不寒而慄,很多人看見了都流淚扎心,現在我想起都流淚。</p>
<p>問﹕對,很多人到現在想起來仍然難過。</p>
<p>梁﹕對,肯定是。</p>
<p>問﹕然後你怎樣﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕嗯,我繼續視察病人 [笑聲],然後我走到樓下,醫院外面一片混亂,我嘗試了解華埠怎樣,因為我們的秘書應該已到了華埠,我要知道他們是否安全,又安全回家了沒有。顯然,我們要關閉診所,<br>
亦關注如何聯絡我們的父母,那時我們知道沒有診症時間了。我們要為駐守地工作,醫院、急症室擠滿醫生,當時醫生太多了,院方叫醫生下班 [笑聲],又說如有需要時,他們會聯絡我們。所以我走到中城的診所,看看什麼情況,嘗試聯絡應聯絡的人,我發覺我們的秘書安全,跟著又要找尋一個安全地方落腳,那可能在什麼地方呢﹖我記得東面一片混亂,我向西行了一段路,然而西邊死寂一片,因為每個人都向東行,他們想跨區到皇后區或什麼似的。我的一名秘書要由37街、步行過布碌崙橋、回到家中,很慶幸她走畢全程,那是難以置信的。</p>
<p>問﹕那你當時住在那裡﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕那時我住在布朗士區,所以要找路走,我可以選擇留在市內,但也恐怕會再次被襲,我想如有必要,我會留在辦公室,但是我想到法子走到皇后區,因為父母就在皇后區,我關心他們的安全。我的母親在曼哈頓,她說要留在血液實驗室主持大局,她要留下,或許有什麼要她做,我也認為以色列醫院不大受影響,因為最靠近世貿的是聖雲仙醫院,我父親則安全返抵家中。很幸運地,我乘船到了皇后區,本來我從來不留意,也不知道有船到那裡,其後我滯留在長島市,又沒有地車,又沒有私家車,又不能打電話找人接我,一位好撒瑪利亞人駕著一輛吉普車,她停下來說﹕「在我到的目的地沿途可以停下任何人。」她接了我們幾個人,又放下我們,然後我一直步行回到父母親家中,確定他們安全無恙。</p>
<p>[第一面錄音帶完,開始第二面]</p>
<p>問﹕9/11後下城及華埠的氣氛怎樣﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕是的,事後華埠極其死寂一片,平日我們只見人們熙來攘往,你很容易會踏到人們的腳趾,後來我們來到時,<br>
我不記得華埠關閉多少天了,我們不見行人,沒有人送貨,看見使人傷心,9/11改變了華埠。但後來華埠又復甦了,慢慢地,較多人來到華埠,來到紐約市遊覽,一轉眼又幾乎三年了。</p>
<p>問﹕你覺得華埠何時回復了正常,回到以前熟悉的樣子﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕很可能是幾個月,確實在那時,我不清楚,也不十分留意,我的病人繼續來,起初,有很多人要求空氣清新機,因為有傳言,但我不知道是否有明文規定,說,如醫生寫證明,居民可得到空氣清新機,故此我為病人寫了一些證明,使他們可以取得。除此之外,我不覺得9/11後社區健康外展方面有何大影響,我比較感覺到病人投訴呼吸病多了,我發覺現在投訴有呼吸系統疾病的病人比以前多了,我不知道是否和9/11有關,但我不覺得病人外展工作有什麼重大轉變。</p>
<p>問﹕所以那時你已經在華埠執業了嗎﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕是的,是的。</p>
<p>問﹕但你當時不覺得你的顧客或病人的健康有何重大轉變嗎﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕對病人有什麼重大影響,不很覺得,並不是很明顯,但你知道,老實告訴你,我只記得空氣清新機,除此之外沒有其他,我的同事也在華埠做事,他們也不記得有沒有一些特別為9/11而實施的計劃,我有幾個可能是9/11襲擊的災後創傷的個案,那是可以理解的,我的病人受影響的不多。</p>
<p>問﹕所以很多人要求空氣清新機……﹖</p>
<p> 梁﹕是的,有趣的是,提到心理健康,華人社區是一個十分封閉的社區,病人不會很鄭重地投訴或關注,你很刻意去詢問他們也得不到肯定的答案,他們喜歡淡化地講,嗯,可能有一點點疲倦軟弱,所以要清楚地判斷是否9/11對情緒的影響,我不能充分作出斷症。</p>
<p>問﹕這點很有趣,因為前人的研究也指出亞裔文化時時將情緒壓力投射說成是身體痛楚,你的病人是否可能如此﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕對不起,請重覆一遍﹖</p>
<p>問﹕即是說,病人寧願不說﹕「我感到沮喪,」而改說,我的背痛,或轉化作其他投訴。</p>
<p>梁﹕可能是,我覺得華人將很多感情事內歛化,我們不能用口明言,將它轉為投訴身體上的痛楚,那是可能,極有可能,在我從醫經驗中不是時時遇到,或我沒有深入了解,而那是難於證實的。</p>
<p>問﹕你沒有看見,例如患呼吸系統病的老人明顯增加了﹖抑或是你到現階段仍未量度出來﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我個人覺得最近自己的呼吸急促了,但我並不是直接在災區居住的人士,距離災區30條街之遙,此外,我覺得健康狀況改變了些,故此我能想像住在這華埠的人可能呈現更多病徵,因為他們貼近世貿,我記得一些病人訴說他們連日來嗅到廢墟的味道,要多月才消散。我一星期約三次到這辦公室,雖然時間短,但也受到一些影響,但如果是病人能講出的病徵,則可能是較多投訴呼吸系統疾病。但科學而言,我並不知道這是否……,我是指,在統計數字上不知道是否明顯地增多了,或只是差不多罷﹗</p>
<p> 問﹕但當局似乎為下城居民提供有不同的計劃,一些更特別為華埠,一些特別為其他地方,但你不覺得你的病人獲得一些服務嗎﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我沒有特別詢問他們,但肯定是他們接受了一些服務,只是我不大知道而已,病人沒有特別問我可得到什麼服務,特別是9/11後遺症,所以我不知道他們是否從報張上知道,但我自己就沒有閱讀中文報紙,所以我不能說我見到這些計劃,可能報紙提及過,但我不知道。</p>
<p>問﹕你有沒有感到華埠在9/11後恢復過來﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕有,我認為華埠已經復元了一點,現在華埠遊人肯定增多了,我很容易踏到其他人的腳趾 [笑聲],華埠仍然興盛、滿有生氣是一件好事,我認為華埠在一定程度上已恢復過來,但閱讀一些報張時,也聞說9/11的陰影仍然存在,尤其是在柏路附近。今天的報張說有團體已提出法律起訴,因為關閉柏路引起生意倒閉,所以影響仍在,縱然有關當局說是為了保障人民安全的緣故,所以……。</p>
<p>問﹕我想你和華埠關係密切,你父母起初在華埠做生意,父親在華埠開藥房,你孩童時候在華埠的經歷,你現在在華埠執業等等。以你個人或專業上與華埠的經驗,你認為華埠的前景如何﹖</p>
<p> [手機響聲]</p>
<p>問﹕我想重覆再問,你父母起初在華埠做生意,父親在華埠開藥房,你孩童時候在華埠的經歷,你現在在華埠執業,以你個人或專業上與華埠的經驗,你認為華埠的前景如何﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕我會一直在華埠執業,我愛這裡,這裡的病人,我在這裡填補了空缺的崗位,我的同輩--也是華人--<br>
我們一起照顧我們的人群,心裡覺得舒服。</p>
<p>問﹕這種感覺是否日益普遍﹖我是指,是否越來越多華人在華埠從事醫療工作﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕問得好,並不是,我不認為是。但是,我認為新畢業的醫學生--[清清喉嚨],對不起--明白在華埠開展事業及受訓的可能性,但你知我沒有和同事討論這些,但華埠聘請醫生大部份都是找同類的醫生,因為不懂華語的人在這裡執業很奇怪,但不是沒有,這裡肯定有醫生是非華人,不講中文,在華埠執業,他們不是每天來,可能一星期有一、兩天在華埠執業。好像我們華埠也需要多一個整形外科醫生,現時有一個留在華埠 [笑聲],他是唯一一個,有很大的發展空間,這裡的病人需要多種專科醫生,所以有很大的發展空間。</p>
<p>問﹕嗯,我問那問題是以為趨勢剛剛和你講的相反,在這華埠生長的人往往喜歡向外發展,你恰好相反,回到社區服務。</p>
<p>梁﹕有趣的是,我想我是因為從小只接觸一點點華埠的緣故,多數只在周末,及高中時有時放學後來到華埠,初起我不怎樣喜歡來華埠,但來到後又感覺很輕鬆。有趣的是,我從來沒有認真想過,但覺很自在,需得被需要,又能為人服務,所以我回到華埠工作,將來亦會留在華埠 [笑聲],若他們需要我,我就留下來。</p>
<p>問﹕你認為華埠的將來,是否會擴大及轉變呢﹖因為政治或關注團體往往喜歡預測人口轉變、或分析華埠與城市的關係。從你的專業位置看來,華埠是否仍然是可養活醫生的社區呢﹖</p>
<p>梁﹕絕對是,一群核心居民時時留在華埠,在紐約市內亦湧現多個更小的衛星華埠,在艾姆斯特就有一個正在擴大,在法拉盛的龐大人口也湧現一個,慢慢擴大,但紐約市的華埠是最原裝的一個,華人傳統源自華埠,大部份人最後都來過這裡,一些人短暫時間逗留。但現在華埠的人口流動也很大,我不知道人口學上的確實情況,及轉變如何,但華埠是主要基地,從此地發展出去,所以我想華埠會繼續存在,至少在我有生之年亦希望它會存在。</p>
<p>問﹕如果能知道你執業的人口轉變,作為一種量度,肯定是很有趣的事情。</p>
<p>梁﹕嗯,我肯定自己會留下來工作,我猜我會不大改變,不會遷去其他地方,除非租金貴到非走不可的地步 [笑聲],但肯定是,我的病人隨著歲月會改變,政治氣候或環境天氣就很難預測了,今日,將來都可能轉變,華埠已經在這裡很久了,我猜華埠會捱過一切轉變留下來,我真的認為它會長在。</p>
<p>問﹕十分謝謝你,我不打擾了。</p>
<p>梁﹕謝謝﹗</p>
<p> [訪問完畢]</p>
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Dr. Blanche Leung
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Zhong Yue Zhang
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Florence Ng
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-05-26
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
immigration Lawyer
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
This is one of the Museum of Chinese in the Americas’ oral
history interviews regarding the 9/11 experience in New York’s
Chinatown. Today we have invited Zhong Yue Zhang, Esq. for an
interview. The interviewer is I-Ching Ng. Mr. Zhang, could you tell
us a bit about when you came from mainland China to the United
States?
</p>
<p>
ZHANG: I came to the United States on March 19<sup>th</sup>, 1989.
I came to America because an academic committee let me attend an
international conference. The international conference mainly
focused on the management of transnational corporations throughout
the world. And I had focused on writing about the direct investments
of American transnational corporations in China, their behavior
patterns, and also researching the investments of Japanese
transnational corporations in China and the investments of European
transnational corporations in China. That was my own field of
research. I had been at Fudan University in China for fourteen
years, including both undergraduate studies and teaching there, and
finally earning a Masters degree as a graduate student in the field
of international economics. During that time, I came in contact with
a great amount of Western economic thought. Later, I also went to
Beijing University as a visiting scholar for one year. That was from
1980 to 1981. During that time, I attended the Western Economics
Research Meeting of China, and I was the youngest committee member
there. So, because of my background at Fudan University and Beijing
University, I had the opportunity to make contact with the best
circles of learning in China at that time. In particular, I was able
to be in the forefront of research in studying Western economies and
the field of foreign direct investment. As an undergraduate, I had
studied British and American Languages and Literatures. In early
1977, when I graduated, there were very few students who had finished
four years of college study, and I was in the British and American
Languages and Literatures department of Fudan University. Initially,
the intention was to train us to work as diplomats, to send us to
every foreign embassy and consulate. We’d start as a
secretary, since we should have the linguistic basics, and go from
level three secretary to level two secretary, and continue developing
along that path. But because they made changes to the foreign
service in 1977, after graduation, we still remained at our schools.
Since I was left in school, I started studying economics. On one
hand, I acted as a teacher, on the other hand, I took classes in
economics, so I had a chance to interact with the best economics
departments in China at that time, and the focus of the economics
curriculum.</p>
<p>Q: Then
would you say that studying literature was your own interest?</p>
<p>
ZHANG: Studying literature wasn’t a matter of
following my interests. When I was studying at school it was in the
midst of the Cultural Revolution, that was towards the end of 1972.
At that time, the universities in China had all closed and were only
recently reopened. We were pretty much the only bunch of junior high
school students to go straight into college, and in all of China, we
only numbered about 600.</p>
<p>Q: At that
time, you were in Shanghai?</p>
<p>ZHANG: At
Shanghai’s Fudan University, yes.</p>
<p>Q: So you
would be a member of the ‘fifth generation’?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
‘Fifth generation’ or whatever generation development –
people have different ways of counting that, but I think I was a
little earlier than fifth generation.</p>
<p>Q: Then, do
you feel that the study of literature and the study of economics were
two very different fields?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
Literature and economics are two completely different fields. As far
as literature goes, you have a robust creativity, a strong literary
background, and you need to think comparatively deeply, so that gives
you a sort of creativity that is distinct from reality. But in the
case of economics, a lot of aspects of it are connected to science,
so you need very good logical thinking skills. Besides needing to
have a great understanding of the current state of society, you also
need to do a lot of theoretical research, and you need a lot of
interaction with the fields of math and science. So, basically,
these two are entirely different fields.</p>
<p>Q: Which
one do you think you like more, or do you feel that they are mutually
beneficial?</p>
<p>
ZHANG: When I first started to study British and American
Languages and Literature, I didn’t enter that field because I
liked it, it was because they selected me, and so I went. Every
junior high school in Shanghai had a quota of a single person [to go
to college], and some of them didn’t even have that. My junior
high school was a very good one, Ge-zhi Junior High School. Up to
the present day, Ge-zhi Junior High School has had 150 years of
history, and had already been established back in the Qing Dynasty.
At that time, I remember that I had more than 1,000 classmates, and I
was the only one selected for college. So I didn’t study
according to my interest, it was a matter of them choosing me to go.
After I began studying there, very gradually, I began to feel that I
had interest in literature. So why could I just switch to studying
economics after graduation? Because at that time, I felt that as a
male student, becoming a teacher upon graduation and always teaching
would be equivalent to making myself into a tool. And what I wanted
was to make English into a tool to serve me. I didn’t want it
to be my main specialization. This way, I could have a great
advantage in other specialties, because I could use English to read
lots of books. And as it happens, when I did practical work in
economics, I found I had a lot of interest in economics. Anyway, I
was fascinated by economics, and I was much more interested in it
than in literature.</p>
<p>Q: Did you
feel very fortunate in that you were able to study after the Cultural
Revolution ended?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
Being able to study in the midst of the Cultural Revolution was a
very lucky thing. Because out of all the junior high students in
China – and there were maybe several million - each year only
six hundred could go study. That was an outcome unique to that
period of history. My family was also very happy then, because
neither my father nor my mother had gone to college. My mother had
been sent out from the age of eight to work as a child laborer, and
my father had gone out to work as a child laborer from the age of
fourteen. They met because they were both inside the same theater
selling candy at the same time. Actually, my parents’ family
had been very large, before the Republic of China, they had been a
very big family, but because of the changes in Chinese society, the
family had declined, so of course they were very happy that I could
go to college.</p>
<p>Q: Do you
have any brothers and sisters?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
have a younger brother.</p>
<p>Q: What is
he doing?</p>
<p>ZHANG: He
is at the Huangpu district of Shanghai working in the government.</p>
<p>Q: So, Mr.
Zhang, after you came to America, what was your first impression of
the United States? Why did you later decide to stay here?</p>
<p>ZHANG: When
I first came over, I hadn’t intended to stay, because in my
career, in my work, in my opportunities, everything was already
excellent. But because of—The reason I came was, at that time,
my report, I had just casually sent it out here. I had said that I
wanted to attend this conference, because there were so many
outstanding professors in this specialty within the country. One of
them was the president of Zhong-shan University School of Economics,
and he had graduated from Harvard. That was back in the 40s. Three
or four times at international conferences I had bumped into him.
Now, at that time, I was comparatively young, and my English was
relatively good, so I could directly read lots of authors writing on
economics. And because I was at Fudan University and Beijing
University, at that time I interacted with the most advanced
materials. He said to me, you should get out, you should discuss
your point of view with other scholars, because by luck, you’re
arriving on the scene just as China is starting to open up in a major
way, and China is starting to attract foreign investment; and your
data and your knowledge might be quite different from that of foreign
scholars, so if you went abroad at this time, it would be good for
both you and our country. And so for that reason, he gave me some
information, saying, that year, in March of 1988, there was an
international conference on transnational corporations in New York,
and it was reported in an American magazine. So in October of 1987,
I sent a letter to them, saying that I was interested in attending
their conference. They said, send us a topic, so I sent a topic, I
said I was discussing the direct investment of
American transnational corporations in China, their behavior and
patterns, and comparing them to those of Japanese and European
companies. Because my research into this topic was, at that time, in
the forefront within China, especially in regard to the direct
investment of Japanese transnational companies in China. At that
time within China, very few people said that there was a logic behind
the direct investments of Japanese transnational companies; I said
that there was, but that it was different from that of European and
American companies. Because of this paper of mine, lots of people
were aware of me. I wrote a letter to that organization’s
council and they immediately sent a letter back, saying that this
topic would be a great contribution to our conference, we haven’t
had anything on this topic come in, and we hope that you quickly
write up this report and send it over. So in October, after using
English to write out this report, I sent it to the council, and they
invited me to attend. But when they invited me, I said that at that
time I couldn’t get any financial assistance to attend, because
at that time I was already filling a role above lecturer, they were
already planning to make me an Assistant Professor. Back then, it
was very difficult to create young Assistant Professors, and I had
already signed up for it, and I just needed to come back from this
trip and they’d give me the post. I had already published many
famous works, on the subject of Western economics, so I didn’t
prepare much before coming over. If they invited me to go, I would
just talk based on the knowledge that I had gained over in China.</p>
<p>Q: So why
did you stay here?</p>
<p>ZHANG: The
reason I stayed was because after arriving, I felt like I had come
into contact with many scholars, and I felt that if I was only here
for a few days, perhaps I wouldn’t gain a great understanding
of America. Even though I had spent over a dozen years of effort
studying huge amounts of information related to Eastern and Western
economics, and I had taught for many years, I felt that I should stay
for a while and look around, see what differences might exist between
this society and what we studied in books, that great mass of
information that I’d dealt with. If I only spent a few days
here, then the task would be pretty difficult. The second reason was
that I had spent all my
own money to come, I had paid for the plane tickets and
everything else. The conference gave me a little bit of financial
assistance, a stipend to cover the hotel costs, because although they
didn’t normally give any financial assistance, they gave me
enough to pay for a few days at a hotel. So I got a visa, and soon I
had come here, and I thought, at least for now, I want to live here a
while longer. After living here a while, there were some other
reasons, perhaps I hadn’t been too happy with my original
university. So in that way, I ended up living here much longer, and
finally ended up living here all the way to today.</p>
<p>Q: Which
was the organization that set up this conference?</p>
<p>ZHANG: The
organization setting up the conference was the American Business
Administration Association, and the State Department entrusted it to
Hofstra University at Long Island. They organized a very high-level
conference.</p>
<p>Q: After
you came, where in New York did you live?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
After the conference opened, when I arrived, I didn’t
understand anything, I had only thought of coming out to see what the
world was like. At that time, I didn’t have much money on me,
and some overseas students at Hofstra University, one of them was a
law—I didn’t actually know them. One was a law student,
one was an economics student, one was a math student. They said that
Long Island was actually very close to New York, and that New York is
a very different place. They said, you just have to take the long
distance train, then take the subway, and you can get to New York.
Over there are newspapers, you can glance them over, and there’s
a huge Chinese community. So in that way, I stored a couple
suitcases at the school, and then I took a bus and then the subway to
New York.</p>
<p>Q: Upon
arriving at New York, what was your first impression?</p>
<p>
ZHANG: When I came to New York, I had many different
feelings. First, I didn’t have much financial resources. At
that time, I only had 29 dollars on my person. That was because when
I came over, I paid for everything myself, and the salary you could
make within China was limited. We also couldn’t announce
having lots of foreign money, we couldn’t have any foreign
money. So when I came over, I borrowed some money from fellow
students. They had come to America, and saved up some money there,
and they loaned me American money. I bought a plane ticket, and
covered my basic living expenses, and then when I reached New York, I
only had 29 dollars left. The second reason was, outside of
Chinatown, they said that it’d be really difficult to go
anywhere else. Even though I had studied literature for a long time,
and had taught English, I still didn’t know if I could
communicate with Americans using the language I spoke, or if I could
get by at all. Therefore, there was a huge gap separating us.</p>
<p>After a
little bit, I had walked down to Chinatown. The first day there, I
didn’t know where to stay, they said, go buy a newspaper,
there’s a <em>World Journal</em> (<em>Shi-jie Ri-bao</em>). At
that time there were Chinese newspapers and other newspapers. You
can go ---, and above that, you can get a job, or rent a room. So I
had no friends, no relatives, but still came over. I remember that
after arriving, as soon as I came out from the subway, I sat at the
intersection of Mott Street and Canal Street. My first thought was,
ah, there’s so much Chinese stuff here, the signs, the people
walking, they’re all Chinese, and I felt very comfortable.
Immediately, I also felt like foreigner, because at that time I could
see a lot of Chinese people, but very few spoke my local language,
the Shanghai dialect, and very few spoke Mandarin. If they spoke
Chinese, it was Cantonese. I didn’t understand a word of
Cantonese. So, sitting there, my third reaction was to be a little
flustered. I had no money, I had no idea where I would live my first
day, and didn’t know where to find work. So, I sat at that
intersection for about thirty minutes, and ate a couple eggs. These
eggs were ones that a private group of overseas students at Hofstra
University gave me, saying, why don’t you go out and see what
it’s like? So, my first day, that’s the way I went to
New York.</p>
<p>
After arriving, I started searching for work starting in
Chinatown, asking at every restaurant if they had work for me. If I
could find work, then I could rely on my own abilities, or I could
study at school or settle down. So I started searching all the
restaurants in Chinatown, and they asked: Can you speak Cantonese? I
said, No, I can’t. And then they said, then you can’t
work here, because if you can’t speak Cantonese, you can’t
communicate, so there was no chance to work. I just followed the
road from Chinatown all the way to the Upper West Side, heading west,
and when I reached about the eighth big street, 57<sup>th</sup>
Street, I went into a Chinese restaurant. Every time I had seen a
Chinese restaurant, I went inside and asked them for work, and this
time, I saw a man, a pretty good man, he was from Shandong in China.
He was in that restaurant, I remember it was called “Hunan
Garden” and he did a delivery business. He said, you look like
you’ve just arrived in this place, where are you from? And I
said, “I’m from Shanghai.” He said, “Inside,
we have a guy who does delivery, he’s from Shanghai, I’ll
help introduce you to him, and since it looks like you don’t
have any place to put your feet, come inside and have some food!”</p>
<p>I ate at
their restaurant, and I remember that at that time, he gave me Jielan
Beef and soup to eat, and then he gave me five dollars in quarters.
He said, go use this money to call people, you can call all your
friends. I said, I don’t have any friends here, and I don’t
have any relatives here. He said, all you need to do is find work
and then you can do anything. I said, how do I thank you, I don’t
even know you, and you’ve been so good to me, especially on my
first day when I still don’t know where I’m going to
live. He said, no need to get excited, if you are able to succeed
later on, just invite me to eat a meal with you and that’s
enough. But up to this day, I still don’t know where that man
is. From inside that store, a man from Shanghai came out, and he was
younger than me. After looking at me for a moment, he said, “Well,
it’s like this, I see that you’re a pretty good guy, and
I live in Queens, and in a place called Rego Park.” He lived
in a tiny basement, and his rent was very cheap. He said, “I
can guess that you don’t have any money, so just live with me
for a while, and later on when you find your own place, you can move
out.” So that day I went with him back to Rego Park in Queens.
The place we lived was very small. That room had little besides a
bed, and the space next to the bed was just slightly
bigger than the bed itself. He said, we’ll do
it like this, and he took off the mattress and slept on that, and I
slept on top of the spring box. I slept on top of it for three
months, and at that time, I didn’t know, since I was very poor,
and I was very nervous, because even going out to buy a bed was very
expensive. At first when I went out I was very nervous, so I slept
on top of there for three full months. Later I started looking for
work, and I found work due to that man from Shanghai, he was called
Chen Jian-xin, Jason, a really great young man. He said, “It’s
like this, I’ll help introduce you.” And so, very slowly,
I began delivering take-out from that restaurant. At the same time,
there was one thing I hadn’t thought about, and he said,
“You’ll have no trouble at all – because you came
in on a B-1 Visa, so you can apply to have it changed to student
status.” I said, “I can do that, but I don’t have
anyone to act as my sponsor.” He said, “I’ll go
and be your sponsor.” He had lots of family members immigrate
to the U.S. or Canada, and so he transferred a bunch of money in my
bank account. I had only known him for about one or two weeks, and
he transferred about eight thousand dollars into my bank account, and
then I began studying language there. It was because of these things
that I could succeed, so I want to thank those two men, especially
the second one who was truly exceptional.</p>
<p>Q: So, Mr.
Zhang, it sounds like you used to teach in mainland China.
Considering that you were doing a higher level of work over there,
wasn’t this whole process extremely frustrating? After you
came here, you had to work your way up from the very bottom, and you
had to work in restaurants. This must have been a huge fall in
status. How did you adjust to it?</p>
<p>ZHANG: This
was a huge fall in status, so much so that even if you took all the
words available to write it out, no matter how you tried to describe
it, you still couldn’t accurately describe the degree to which
I had fallen in the world. My circumstances in China were extremely
good, my opportunities were great, and the work I was doing had
already reached a high level. I had come to America not because my
circumstances were bad, rather I had come over to change my
surroundings, and the main reasons were the two that I just
mentioned. One thing, from my childhood until adulthood, I had been
living through a period of rapid change within China,
going from a very closed society, from a society in which the
Communist Party controlled everything very closely, all the way to a
time when very, very slowly the government had started loosening the
economy, and had started opening up to the outside. It was a time of
huge changes, so I had a kind of urge, especially because I had
studied British and American Languages and Literatures and also
Western Economics. I had this urge, I always had wanted to come out
and see the stuff I had studied and the stuff I had taught, and see
what it was like. This was a really powerful desire. Actually, in
the ten years previous to 1988, there were opportunities every year
for me to come over, to go to America or to Europe. When I had
graduated, I was a student not quite 21 years of age, and my English
was such that, compared to others in China, I could be considered a
specialist, and also I was from Fudan University, and there were only
600 in the entire nation. So, if I applied to study abroad, I could
have gone at any time. The reason I hadn’t applied to study
abroad then was because I had felt that China was changing.
Supposing that I had gone abroad to study British and American
Languages and Literature, then I wouldn’t have understood
anything other than those languages, because I would have missed out
on that entire period of change within my country. Later, when I
returned to China to work, I wouldn’t understand Chinese people
at all. So I switched to studying economics, and understood the
society, and greatly delved into my studies. During those ten years,
I didn’t come. So, when I came, it wasn’t because my
circumstances had been bad, but maybe my urge meant more to me than
those good circumstances, the desire to go change my environment
meant more, and the reason for that was because I had already been an
intellectual. Maybe intellectuals have a sort of imagination and
passion that is more naïve than people of other social classes,
so this naïve imagination acted as a powerful impetus for me.
Of course, there were some other reasons, but none of them were very
important.</p>
<p>Q: So after
you came to America, what differences did you feel existed between
the America that you saw and the America that you studied in a
textbook or that you had imagined?</p>
<p><a name="here"></a>
ZHANG: The
America that I saw, let’s put it this way, I saw New York, and
I think that it is different from other places in America. Because
the first place I had stopped at was—when I came into America,
the first place I stopped at was San Francisco. I waited in the
airport for four hours, then changed planes and went to Washington
DC. When I was in San Francisco, the customs officers and the
immigration officers were all very polite, all very friendly. And I
saw Asian faces, and maybe that made me feel a kind of closeness, and
didn’t feel like such a stranger. When I reached Washington
DC, I thought that the American Management Council’s committee
head would send someone to meet me, because I had brought with me a
letter for Shanghai’s Wang Dao-han, to discuss holding an
international conference in China. I brought his letter with me, and
I hadn’t expected that he had gone away to Italy on official
business, and that he didn’t receive my fax. So I was very
nervous on the plane, because nobody was coming to meet me, and I
didn’t know where to go after I left, so I just slept in the
airport for a night. At that time, how terrified was I? Because
this was a completely new country, and there weren’t Asian
faces, there were a few different races, there were a few minorities,
such as Blacks and Hispanics, there were about four or five of them
waiting in the rear room of the airport. I was the only Asian
person, and I was a little scared then, a bit scared. So I spent a
night sleeping there, and for one night I didn’t go out, and
anyway it was a matter of waking up after twenty minutes, or after
fifteen minutes, not wanting to let anyone take my luggage, and not
sure what might happen. Early the second day, I came across a
cleaning person, an airport cleaning person, and he looked like he
was a mixed-race person, part White and part Black. He said,
considering the situation you’re in, I’ll give you a
couple quarters, and you call your friend. At that time, I had the
phone number of a Chinese professor at George Washington University,
and so I just called him. He said, Oh, you’re already here!
And then he came to meet me. So I also want to thank that person,
because even though he just gave me a couple quarters, he allowed me
to contact my friends outside, so I soon had someone coming to meet
me.</p>
<p>Q: Mr.
Zhang, could you tell us, since you started as a worker in a
restaurant, how did you end up becoming a lawyer? Can you tell us
what kind of story occurred in the middle?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
Working at a restaurant in New York, it was like this, in the
beginning, I studied language – I studied language at Kaplan.
I wanted to raise my English level. Even though we studied a lot of
English, it had been somewhat different from the English that
Americans spoke. I could communicate with people, that wasn’t
a problem, and I could make a speech. But when I look back at it
now, my English then had been based on Chinese school lessons, and it
must have been quite different than English I spoke after living here
for a while. And even though I feel that my English is quite
different than it used to be, even now I feel that there’s a
difference between me and Americans who were born and raised here.
At that time, after studying it, I came here and had a look at this
society, and I felt that Chinatown didn’t necessarily fit me.
The reason it didn’t fit me was because I couldn’t speak
Cantonese, and I didn’t know how to take part. So I studied
language at 57<sup>th</sup> Street on the West Side, and worked a
little as a deliveryman, and after studying a while, I felt that if I
only studied the language, it wasn’t quite equal to the kinds
of books I had been studying before, and I ought to return to my
specialization. So I applied to enter the City University of New
York, Graduate Center, and applied to join their PhD program in
economics. The director was a really good guy. He said, you
graduated from Fudan University, and you have a Masters degree, so I
will completely accept your academic background. He recognized all
36 credits, and enrolled me. After being enrolled, I studied one
semester towards a PhD in economics. But suddenly I had used up all
my money, and I had to spend all the money I had made from working on
my tuition, and I couldn’t work while I was studying, so soon I
had no money for tuition. I was really nervous, so once again I came
out to work.</p>
<p>At Second
Avenue and 82<sup>nd</sup> Street, I was a manager for a delivery
service. After doing that, there was a time when I was with several
professors from China, all of them very young, and I heard them
saying, about five blocks away, there was a restaurant that was going
to be sold, and they said to go take a look at it. Just like that, I
went and had a look and a week later I had partnered with others and
bought the restaurant, at 85<sup>th</sup> Street and Third Avenue,
just like that, in a moment I was involved in that restaurant.
Working at the restaurant was really exhausting, because it was a
huge responsibility. One important
consideration was that in China, we didn’t have
this kind of entrepreneurial environment, so if I could be clever
enough to handle a bit of American business, then I would become
accustomed to American society. When I bought the restaurant, other
than getting a lawyer, I handled everything myself. I did
everything, including applying for a health code sign, and for every
kind of license. So at the time, when I did it, I said, regardless
of whether I do this for ten years or five years, I definitely have
to go back to school again. I kept that in mind while I was running
it. I worked very hard, and during the first year I worked seven
days without rest. At the time, my body was strong, because I had
just entered my thirties, and I had exercised a lot during the time
of my studies, so my body was in good shape, and I had no lack of
energy, and it didn’t matter if I didn’t get a lot of
sleep. But during that time I had one urge, that was to do some sort
of business to understand this society, and so in this way I got
involved. If you asked me now to go through it all again, and work
the same way as I did then, there’s a good chance I couldn’t
pull it off.</p>
<p>Q: So how
long were you working at that restaurant?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
started at the restaurant near the end of 1989 and continued until
1993 or 1994, when I sold it. At that time, I decided I would study
at a law school, and the restaurant was still there, so after
studying for a semester I came back, sold the restaurant, and
returned to study at the law school. So I did it for about four
years or so.</p>
<p>Q: So how
did you become interested in becoming a lawyer here?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
Becoming a lawyer, the story of how I came to study at law school is
really interesting. How is it interesting? At that time, I was
talking with my wife, saying, if I went back to study, what should I
study? Because even though I was very lucky in that I had been able
to go to college in the midst of the Cultural Revolution, at the same
time, I suffered a sort of side effect of the Cultural Revolution’s
attitude towards learning. Maybe it was a kind of influence. What
kind of influence? At that time, a lot of junior high schools didn’t
have any rules, and the school curriculums were a mess, the rules
that
had been in
place before the Cultural Revolution were all gone. So our math and
science education was extremely limited, so even though when I went
back to school and studied economics, when I thought about studying
economics again, a lot of American schools had tons of math and
science in their economics programs, especially mathematical
patterns. In this way, I said, this isn’t my strong suit, and
whatever I go back and study, I wanted to avoid mathematics, because
I had never formally studied math. In that way, I didn’t have
many choices. Besides studying economics, I could study history,
administration, or I could choose to study politics, or I could study
law. That night, I remember very clearly, I asked, what would be best
for me to study? And we just flipped a coin. Just flipped a
quarter, heads or tails. If it was heads, then I would go study law.
In the end, it was heads, and I decided to study law, and that’s
how I went there.</p>
<p>Q: Did you
study there with your wife?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
studied there by myself.</p>
<p>Q: Did you
wife come here later from mainland China? Or was she here---</p>
<p>ZHANG: She
came here before me, and was working in a different field.</p>
<p>Q: How did
you two meet?</p>
<p>ZHANG: We
met in New York.</p>
<p>Q: After
studying at law school, when did you open your own practice?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
Before graduating from the law school in 1996, I studied for three
years – I studied law at the University of Maine, School of
Law. My final year I studied as a visiting student at Brooklyn Law
School, because my home was in New York, and I wanted to return to
New York, and my wife was also in New York. So at that time I
applied to be a visiting student at Brooklyn Law
School. It’s a private law school. So after graduating in
1996, I stayed in New York. When I was in New York, I didn’t
think about coming and starting my own firm, because all my
experience was with big companies, big universities, and big
organizations. Especially when I was studying in the law school,
every year, I went to Hong Kong, either for training or as an intern,
and I helped a couple excellent law firms with some legal work. The
reason they had invited me was because I was very familiar with the
Chinese system and Chinese law, and I had also studied at an American
law school, and also I was comparatively familiar with Hong Kong’s
situation, because I had written a few essays on it before coming to
the U.S. At that time, I discussed what changes would take place
immediately and in the future in Hong Kong and China, and I deeply
researched the issue of whether China would have a greater influence
on Hong Kong or whether Hong Kong would have a greater influence on
China. So they invited me to do work related to stock market IPOs.
They were doing work helping Chinese companies put H-shares upon the
Hong Kong stock market, and they did appraisals and lots of
underwriting. So I helped them with this within reorganizations, and
they wanted to use my expertise in this area to see if certain deals
could go through, and if there was a reorganization, how it would be
done. So I helped them—I was directly responsible to their
management, even though at that time I still hadn’t graduated.
So each summer, starting in 1994, I went there, in ’94, ’95,
and ’96, and even went during one winter. One of the two law
firms was Deacons Graham and James. It’s the biggest in Hong
Kong, the number one firm. The other one was a Top 5 City of London
firm, called Simmons & Simons. During that time I began to be
very familiar with a lot of Hong Kong’s special circumstances.</p>
<p>Q: So did
you do immigration cases at that time? Or did you do something
different?</p>
<p>ZHANG: At
that time, I did nothing but corporate law, I hadn’t thought
about doing immigration law or anything else. But in 1997, this
situation changed, because after I had graduated for a little while,
my daughter immigrated from Shanghai, in China. I had applied in ’95
to become an American citizen, and so I also applied for her to come
to America. I thought that if I worked in a major law firm, I would
have to spend lots of
time there, and I wouldn’t have time to take care of
her. When she came, she was 13 years old, and that’s a very
important age. So I wanted to spend a lot more time with her. That
was the first time that I thought, well, then I will just come out
and do it myself. Before I had never wanted to come out and do
things myself, and if I came out and worked on my own, I’d be
doing something completely different from the law I had been doing.
So at that time, I gave up my opportunity to work in a major American
law firm, and instead went to work for a firm focusing on accidental
injury. It’s a very good New York City firm, located on Vesey
Street, and it’s very famous within the Chinese community. I
acted as their Chinese lawyer, focusing on accidental injury cases.
My income went down very, very much, but I thought I could gain a lot
of experience, lots of experience in court. So I worked there for
ten months, going to court every day, met lots of Chinese clients,
represented the firm in accidental injury and workplace injury cases.
After ten months, I – in October of 1998, I started my own law
practice, in the beginning of 1999, I officially opened it. I
started by running my firm as a general practice, because when you
come out to work by yourself in a law firm, you are a solo
practitioner. When I began, it was just me, I did immigration work,
I did corporate law, I did divorce, I did criminal disputes, anyway,
you can say it was a general practice. In the Chinese community,
immigration was the biggest issue, it represented over 50% of cases.</p>
<p>Q: What
challenges do you have doing immigration applications? And I think
that America’s immigration laws are constantly changing, so
what sort of impact does that have upon your business?</p>
<p>ZHANG: At
the time when I first came out, the few friends I had who were
already working as lawyers outside said it was more difficult, the
market is very unstable. And that was because I started up in ’99,
and before ’99, at the end of ’98, I left my employer,
and as it happened, there were several new immigration laws which had
started being revised in ’96. Before 1996, it was very easy to
do, and there weren’t many lawyers, the immigration law being
very easy. After 1996, there was a huge change – in 1997 and
1998. The changes made in 1997 caused the lawyers at that time to
have a lot of opportunities. At the time that I came out, there
weren’t any new immigration laws and
there were a lot of lawyers, so it was a great
challenge. To give one example, in 1996 and 1997, after the new
immigration reforms, there was a new immigration rule saying that if
you wished to apply for political asylum, you had to do it within a
year of entering America, and if you didn’t do that, then you
lost your chance, unless you had some powerful reason why the one
year limit should not be applied to your case. This one-year limit
was very strict. If your country changed greatly, or American law
changed greatly, and there’s lots of other examples of
situations which could occur, but only in these situations could you
apply for political asylum after the limit. Before ’96 and
’97, you could apply at any time, you could be in the country
for five or ten years and still do it. Anyway, the immigration law
was becoming more and more strict. When I appeared, it was during
the time that the immigration laws were becoming ever more strict.
At that time, many Chinese clients, especially from Fujian, had lots
of immigration questions to ask; but, at the time circumstances were
not good, and the competition was fierce.</p>
<p>Q: Can you
talk to us a little about this profession? Being a Chinese lawyer in
New York? What changes have there been during all these years?</p>
<p>ZHANG: The
changes in the profession of law have been huge. From the time I
opened my business, after 1998 ended, one of the biggest changes
occurred between the end of the year 2000 and the end of April 2001.
The president at that time, President Clinton, signed an executive
order which caused a lot of people who had originally been illegal
immigrants to have a chance to gain the benefits of immigration. We
normally refer to this as 245(i). 245(i) is a kind of special
amnesty, not a complete amnesty. It gave people who had come to
America prior to December of 2000, and who hadn’t been deported
or processed in court a chance to apply for immigration; but you need
to prove that you were already in America by December of 2000. And
this application needed to be delivered before April 30<sup>th</sup>
of 2001. You could apply as a worker, or family immigration, any
kind of immigration, as long as it was legal, you could apply based
on anything. And after you applied, so long as it was by April 30,
2001, as long as you applied before then, you could get the benefits.
The benefits were that if you were rejected for immigration prior to
April 30, 2001, and supposing that later on your
application was ratified, then at that future time
you wouldn’t need to go abroad to adjust your status. That was
a time when the profession was extremely busy, and besides this, all
the immigration adjustments were expanded. After the enactment of
245(i) on April 30, 2001, all of the immigration lawyers were very
happy. That was because they thought that America’s
regulations had been loosened, and had given a lot of people who had
entered the country illegally a chance to adjust their status in this
country. Perhaps several million people benefited, and we understood
the new immigration laws quicker. A lot of law firms lost out on
this opportunity; they decided they didn’t want to mess with
this thing, and they didn’t do it, and so they lost their
chance. So there were a bunch of law firms that expanded quickly,
and we were one of those. In a flash, our law firm expanded, and our
clients grew in number.</p>
<p>Of course,
I learned a lot of new things in the midst of this, and there were a
lot of new challenges, because previous to 1998, my law firm hadn’t
existed. After that immigration law, we kept thinking that another
bunch of 245(i) laws would come out, and President Clinton would sign
them, extending this kind of law. This would be a great thing to new
immigrants, especially us Chinese immigrants, new immigrants without
status, we could gain a lot of benefits. But he didn’t sign
the new executive order prior to the election. He had already sent
the bill to Congress, and the Senate and the House had already
discussed it, there were no problems, he could sign it, and he could
extend the time period and allow people who arrived later or who
didn’t have a chance to apply originally to apply now. But
after the explosive events of 9/11, immigration law completely
changed. And they changed in an extremely conservative direction.
So after those events, all the immigration laws created new obstacles
for immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, ones who snuck over.
Because of the changes due to 9/11, immigration law became stricter,
and every sort of background was checked, and they issued all kinds
of new immigration laws, and it created lots of difficulties,
particularly for those that illegally snuck into the country. I
believe that from the standpoint of my profession, the number of
illegal immigrants decreased. In the past, a great number of people
had been illegal immigrants, because after American immigration law
was revised, it didn’t let you apply so easily for political
asylum, and it didn’t let you get through extremely complicated
court procedures
very easily, so there were a lot fewer clients coming. To give an
example, it used to be that an appeal would not get a result until
many years later. All appeals required three immigration judges to
make a decision, two could be in favor and one opposed, with the
opinion of the two being sufficient. Things would take five or six
years, or four or five years, and that was quite typical. But one
advantage was that until the appeal was decided, during those years,
you could remain in the country. You could work, and nobody would
catch you and do anything. Now, in the time around 9/11, even before
9/11, they were thinking about changing this, and after 9/11 they did
change it. A lot of the judges in the immigration courts were
relieved of their roles, and were sent to different places. Now,
there is just one judge who can decide if you win or lose. They have
speeded up this kind of process, and they don’t discuss matters
so carefully. So, when it comes to rejecting immigration cases,
first of all, that happens a lot now, a lot more than in the past.
Secondly, it happens really quickly. So everything about the new
immigration procedures is very difficult.</p>
<p>Q: Can you
speak a little of your peak period, that would be during the Clinton
years, how many clients did you have? Comparing now and then, how
much has your business decreased?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I’ll
put it like this, I don’t have a total number so that I can say
there were this many clients during my peak times. During the peak
time period, I had to go to court every day. I went to court for
political asylum applications at least once every day. The most I
can recall is going to court seven times in one day, with four
different judges. I ran all around, going here and there. If there
was a day that I didn’t go to immigration court, then I would
feel that the day was empty. Nowadays, if I go to court two or three
times in a week, I think it’s very busy. During a week, I
might go to court once, twice, or three times, and even if two of
them were on the same day, and I went to the two cases in a row, that
week would feel very busy. It’s a very clear-cut change, I can
tell you that for sure, the change is very obvious. The applications
for political asylum have decreased dramatically. The decrease
within our profession has been about 95%. What sort of reason caused
the political asylum applications to decrease? Because the number of
cases
of people
sneaking into the country has decreased. Usually when we have a
political asylum case, if someone comes in and asks us for help with
a sponsor, their relatives will be here, and if they can be a
sponsor, then they won’t be locked up, and after the person
comes out they can apply for political asylum. Now, let’s say
that you snuck into the country, and you’re incarcerated by the
government, there’s a lot fewer people locked up, so naturally
there’s a lot less people doing political asylum cases. So
about fifty percent of our work had been helping people legally get
their relatives released from prison, and that fifty percent is gone.
Compared to the time before 9/11, this is a huge change.</p>
<p>Q: So how
did you adjust your profession?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
First of all, even though my work decreased, we haven’t been
impacted so much yet. That’s because the court procedures for
those who illegally entered the country take at least one or two
years to resolve, and at most they take three or four years. The
whole procedure, going from the Immigration Bureau to the courts,
from one court to another, appealing the results, it’s always
like that. So the impact of the changes in policy will only start to
become obvious in the coming days. That is to say, we still have
some former cases that haven’t been resolved yet. But if we
don’t get new cases now, I can predict that within two years,
these cases will become extremely rare. The adjustments are like
that, and even though we have helped—Even though the law has
become stricter, there are still a lot of other immigration cases,
and we still do those. For example, if there is a legal sponsor, we
will do that. If there is a case of political asylum that follows
the law, we will do that. A lot of the cases we had done before, a
lot of the political asylum cases succeeded, and we won a lot of
green card cases, and so a lot of new cases came forward. The
relatives and friends of these people wanted to immigrate, their
parents and sisters wanted to immigrate; and then after their lives
become stable, they wanted to buy a house, or they wanted to run a
business, and these people will always come back and look for us.
The sort of filings we did prior to 9/11 weren’t that many,
they were just family immigration or spousal immigration. Starting
in 2003, we paid a lot of attention to these cases, because we were
already extremely successful in this area. We helped a lot of
relatives immigrate, and our casework unrelated to
political asylum developed very rapidly. I’ll put it like
this, this kind of work used to be, before 9/11 that is, or back when
we first started, they used to be only 10% or 15% of cases. On the
other hand, this kind of immigration filing work has become 80% of
cases now. In this way, to a great extent, these can make up for the
political asylum cases that have disappeared. The second reason is
that, we think a new immigration law will come out, and maybe the
standards will be different or its range will be different. For
example, President Bush has said that they are currently making some
plans, and the two houses of Congress will put forth all sorts of
bills, both the Democrats and Republicans. It’s all due to
current politics that there’s nothing right now -- Last year
they started discussing it, because of the election, maybe around the
time of the election, we’ll see what time they put it forward,
and that [new immigration] plan is one of them. Another one is the
Dream Act, and that one says, if your child goes to high school and
studies for five years, and always studies at school; if you can
prove that, then they will give you a green card, these ones still
haven’t passed. But, I guess that either this year or next
year, they will come out. As soon as these laws come out, our law
firm will be in the forefront, because we had thrown ourselves into
the 245(i), and later we resolved things very well. We especially
did well with the immigration filing later on. In this way, we took
two areas of immigration service and we entered right into those two
areas.</p>
<p>If a new
law comes out, we’ll be in a better position to expand than
before, because we’re already prepared. Our law firm is…
Well, since I have a scholar’s background, I don’t know
how other law firms do it, but we have an internal training
structure. On a weekly basis, we have a meeting to discuss new
cases, the more difficult cases that we’ve come across, or new
immigration laws. Last year in June, we opened our second law
office, in Flushing, and besides this one, in Flushing we’ve
created an entirely new internal system and gotten unique results.
So, we have provided services with these two offices in the largest
two Chinese communities. Over there, we’ve developed very well
according to our accumulated experience. So we have an internal
structure, and we’re always discussing things, always learning,
and we’ve frequently published essays in the
newspaper. So we’ve got a strong foundation
regarding understanding new immigration law and preparing for our
clients.</p>
<p>Q: Can you
talk about after 9/11, that is, the stricter immigration laws, about
how much longer does it take now when you apply for a green card or
to immigrate?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
There’s all kinds of reasons why somebody might apply for a
green card. If you applied for a green card based on political
asylum, it would be a different set of laws. To make an example, if
you suffered from the one-child policy in China and wanted to get a
green card based on that, this would take a long time. Every year
they can handle one thousand cases, every year they take one
thousand, because that’s the allotment for political asylum
based on the one-child policy. So already there are ten or twenty
thousand people in line, and it will be many years before you can
reach the front. Even after it reaches your turn, and you apply for
a green card, there is another waiting period, and there is once
again a limit on the number of applicants. In this way, applicants
for green card based on political asylum, before – in the
beginning, five, six, seven eight years ago, perhaps you could get
one in three or four years, while now it might be nine or ten years.
Just a typical green card application also takes longer. Why does it
take longer? Because now there’s the additional background
investigation instituted after 9/11. To give an example of the
difference between how it was originally and now, consider the case
of spouses, if the wife or husband is an American citizen and applies
for the spouse. Previously in New York, it would take about one year
to finish the process, but now there is the additional background
check, so it will take at least two years or more, and sometimes it
will take as long as three, four years because there is no fixed time
limit for doing the background investigation. All of the other green
card immigration procedures have lengthened by at least one or two
years.</p>
<p>Q: Then
does this influence your work or your business?</p>
<p>ZHANG: This
has both good and bad influences on our cases. The positive
influence is that you can help clients with a lot more issues. One
service is going to the Immigration
Bureau to hasten things. In the case of lots of
applications, there’s no particular reason why they’re
being delayed. So one of the reasons why we often have successes is
because we’re always pressuring them to hasten matters, always
reminding the Immigration Bureau, asking them how the case is coming
along. They won’t respond immediately, but after you push them
a few times, they’ll give an answer. The bad aspect is that
it’s bad for the clients, because the clients applying are
usually in a great hurry, because getting an immigration green card
is an overwhelming issue. The acceptance or rejection of the green
card application greatly impacts the applicant’s life. It’s
like the acceptance or rejection is a weight on their shoulders, and
it brings lots of difficulties. I know, because I am somebody who
immigrated too, and the acceptance or rejection of your application
creates a lot of pressure, and it mixes up your future plans.
Long-term planning is impossible, so this is really bad for them.
The government today is constantly saying that they will increase the
funding to the Immigration Bureau, and allow them to speed up the
process. I’ve heard that current applications are actually
faster than one or two years ago. The reason is because a greater
budget was given to the Immigration Bureau, allowing them to move
swifter. I don’t have any confirmation of that, though.
However, I’ve heard that new applications today are handled
faster than the old ones.</p>
<p>Q: Can you
tell us, since you’ve dealt with so many cases, have there been
any especially unforgettable experiences?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
Because of my personality, I have had lots of unforgettable
experiences. One thing you provide in political asylum is the
specialized legal services. But the lawyer is also the only person,
outside of the judge, the investigator, the translator and the family
members to see this person’s inner feelings and every reaction
throughout the entire process. You can see the changes in the
person’s emotions, you can see what annoys the person, you can
see what makes the person get nervous, you can see the points at
which all the emotions come out. So there have been some political
asylum cases – every case has had a big impact on me. Usually
the clients hope to go through the political asylum process and gain
status here, and I feel the same way. Putting aside the fact that
I’m their lawyer, my background as a Chinese person who
immigrated from China, it makes me
care about them and their status under American law
from the bottom of my heart. The first thing is that you have to do
everything according to American law. I am a lawyer, I have an
ethical profession, there’s definitely no problem, that’s
the first thing, the highest principle. The second thing is that my
personality, added on to my background, makes me feel that I have a
responsibility to help Chinese clients. That’s because I
understand their culture, and because I am a part of that culture.
The second thing is, I understand all the different ways that they
feel confused, and their difficulties, their every emotion, I
understand those. Their relatives can’t understand. Because
when they go to court, I’m next to them, I’m with them
helping them to prepare, and they’ll tell you everything. A
lot of people don’t realize how powerful their emotions are,
and I stay with them every step of the way. So every case that I
handle, I feel truly happy from the bottom of my heart. Lawyers have
to accept fees for their services, but the fees are not so important
to me, and I’ll be with them every step of the way. For
example, if we are defeated, I’ll be right there worrying with
them, and the reason is that I know exactly how huge a win or a loss
is towards the client, how big it is to the family. For example,
there’s a case, I helped a Chinese woman from Shantou in
Guangdong Province, at that time she was about 50 years old, and she
had snuck into the United States. After she was caught at Newark
Airport, she was locked up in the new Elizabeth Detention Center.
First I acted as her sponsor, and usually the detention center
doesn’t release people. This woman had experienced great
suffering. She had suffered harassment due to the one-child policy,
the reason being that she had a boyfriend whose wife was the Village
Child Planning Commission’s Chairperson. The woman and this
other woman’s husband had relations and then she became
pregnant. So then she was put through lots of pressure to get an
abortion, and that very serious things would happen to her if she
didn’t get an abortion, because she was not married. Under
these circumstances, she ran away. And once she started fled, she
kept going for eight or nine years, until she reached a whole
different location in Guangdong Province, and after she bore her
child, she raised him alone, going through lots of painful
experiences. But she didn’t have any documents to prove it.
When you don’t have documents to prove things, then in theory,
as long as everything you say in your testimony is consistent, then
you can go ahead; the judge can accept you, and you can have a
chance. But usually this is pretty difficult. That case took
ten months of work before I succeeded. Afterwards, I
was really touched, because initially the judge hadn’t really
believed the case, and didn’t seem willing to accept her. In
the end, he did and he said it was like this, if you appeal the
decision to the Immigration Bureau, and I let you appeal to them, you
won’t succeed, because this would end up becoming a new
precedent. In the past, with this kind of case, where there are no
documents, this situation of a girlfriend who became pregnant, there
wasn’t any kind of legal precedent, and I wanted them to create
a new precedent. Finally, he agreed, and I was very touched. I said
to her, I never thought it would reach this point. Even if I worked
really hard on the case, I wasn’t sure we would make it. The
government finally appealed the case, and on appeal they still lost.
So, this precedent was created right there, and that was a new
precedent. The judge said it was a new precedent. So this woman is
in America now. This kind of case required that I throw all my
energy and all my emotions and everything I had into it. I was
extremely anxious as well, and speaking from this point of view, I
have seen the true feelings of a lot of legal and illegal immigrants,
and have seen many things in this world. This is an extremely –
speaking as a lawyer, doing this field of work has let me experience
things that lawyers not in this field can never experience.</p>
<p>Q: What do
you think of illegal immigrants? It seems that many Americans see
this as a problem, a bad thing. Now, speaking as a Chinese person,
and someone who has handled so many of these cases, what do you think
of this issue?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
think, speaking as a lawyer, and speaking as an American citizen, I
am very respectful towards American law, I want to respect it and the
people who come here should respect it, they shouldn’t sneak
into the country, and they should use legal paths to enter the
country. But on the other hand, because I am a lawyer, I also must
focus particularly on helping my clients fight for their rights and
benefits. Even though you might have come here illegally, and you
might have broken laws to come here, you still have lots of rights
and benefits, and that’s the great thing about America. So, I
just go along with this, and I try to give the most help that I can.
Now, speaking from this position, speaking from those two basic
points, I don’t really understand the people who
immigrate here from other countries [besides China],
because my clients are generally Chinese. I think, first of all,
America is a nation of immigrants. I think that new immigrants have
been good for America, I think they have advanced the nation. If
there hadn’t been immigrants, America, this nation, wouldn’t
have the history it does. The reason that America has been able to
develop to this point is because there have been immigrants from
every kind of country. Regardless of whether you illegally
immigrated or snuck into the country, having arrived, these people
have a great risk [of being arrested and deported].</p>
<p>Now,
speaking of Chinese illegal immigrants, my opinion is that they have
helped this country advance. I’m not supporting their illegal
entry into this country, and I don’t like them sneaking into
the country, avoiding a lot of—that is, disturbing America with
their illegal actions. But I’m speaking of after they have
come here. Before they come here, that isn’t an area on which
we can comment. We should follow the letter of the law. But having
come here, I think, after they have already come here, as Chinese
people, whether they are from Taiwan, mainland China, Hong Kong, or
even Chinese people from other locations, they are all hard-working.
Secondly, they bring comparatively few problems to this country.
Whether you look at it from the perspective of how they educate their
children, or just look at how we all work, you can see that they
place great value on their children’s education, and they work
really hard. Of course, there are a lot of people who do more than a
few bad things, but even so, it’s a comparatively small
percentage. To give an example, Fuzhou people have more than a
decade of history here, and you can see how many people from Fuzhou
have started take-out restaurants and buffet restaurants, not just in
New York, but all over America. It’s hard to find a place
without a Chinese take-out restaurant or a buffet restaurant. It’s
been a great benefit to the country. Not only have they brought
their culture here, but they also bring a convenience, a service.
That service isn’t something that everybody can do. And I’m
just giving one example. They’ve brought a lot of economic
benefit to the country, and they make their children study hard, and
their people get good jobs. And the people working can help their
own families, and then they can help the government generate tax
revenue. This is a really great thing. So I think illegal
immigration, especially illegal immigration from China, has
caused this country, America, to advance greatly, and
that it hasn’t had any bad influence whatsoever.</p>
<p>Q: Can you
recall what you were doing when 9/11 occurred?</p>
<p>ZHANG: 9/11
was a special moment to every single person. At that time, I wasn’t
in America, I was in China, I was in Shanghai, in my mother’s
home. I had booked an airplane ticket to return to America on
September 12<sup>th</sup>. At that time, I was at my mother’s
home, eating with my former classmates, and watching television as we
ate. Suddenly on the television – my brother and others said,
how could two airplanes seem to be hitting the World Trade Center
towers, the twin towers? We weren’t paying attention, and
neither was I, and so I thought that the television station must be
playing some kind of movie. Suddenly I looked over, and realized --
what a second, how could [we be watching a movie on] Phoenix
[Feng-huang] Channel? Phoenix Channel came from Hong Kong, and it
was distinct from mainland China’s Zhong-yang Channel and
Shanghai Channel. I thought, the news station on Phoenix Channel
wouldn’t play a movie. So I looked over there, and as soon as
I did, I got nervous. I saw a second plane hitting the tower. The
first thing I did then was snatch up the phone, and make a phone call
to my wife. Because the place she worked was at Broadway and Vesey
Street, a block from the twin towers. Because the twin towers were
on Church Street, and right beyond that was Broadway. Vesey is the
place where the twin towers start. My wife was in that skyscraper,
at the time she was doing some work at a bank. I called, trying to
reach her, I said, what has happened? She said, it’s a mess.
I could hear shouting in the background behind her. I said I would
call my office, but I couldn’t reach them, and I left a message
for them to call back, to call me in a hurry. If there was anybody
in the office, they should call me immediately. First of all, get
out of there. Secondly, I called again to make sure. I asked her,
have you reached them? She said, I did, they’re already
hurrying back. After people had left, I felt better, because I
didn’t want anybody in that place, because it was very close to
the site [of the twin towers]. Secondly, I said, hurry up and go.
She said, I can’t go right now, it’s chaos. I waited on
hold on the phone for forty minutes. My feelings at that time, maybe
I told them after they came back, I was even
more nervous than if I had been at my New York
office, or had been at that place, because the people who weren’t
in America at that moment were very panicked. The feeling was one of
overwhelming panic. And I called again for my daughter, but I
couldn’t reach her, because she was studying at the Bronx
Science High School. Then, later, I couldn’t find her for a
full day. My wife finally told me that she had found her, and that
my daughter had gone to her classmate’s home to stay. All the
people in the office had left, so I finally relaxed. And then my
wife was inside, and she shouted one thing to me, she said, “Oh
my God! It’s gone. It’s gone.” I said, what is
gone? She said, the two towers are gone. I said, I can see them on
the TV, they’re smoking. She said, it’s gone. It’s
collapsed. So, I was extremely worried then. From that point on, I
was constantly making phone calls. I think that my feelings at that
time -- because I had personally spent lots of time in the area
around the 9/11 towers, and my office was also in that area. But I
was also extremely worried, because I was in Shanghai, and yet my
heart was completely, more than 100% in this place, I was worried
about the safety of the employees at my office, worried about my
wife, worried about the condition of my daughter. So I was always
trying to reach them, and I was speaking to the airline asking when I
could go back. And I was constantly unable to go back, all the way
until the 17<sup>th</sup>. That was the first airplane allowed to
fly in from China, and it flew into San Francisco.</p>
<p>When I came
out of San Francisco, I saw the National Guard in full military
dress, and there were more of them than passengers. And in a flash,
I was back at my office, but when I returned to my office, the whole
neighborhood had changed. Starting from Broadway and Canal Street,
it was all National Guard. Everything was closed off, you couldn’t
get in. Other than workers, nobody could get in. It was like a
militarized zone. It was like watching a movie. The whole
environment had changed, a complete – it was like the kind of
scene you saw in movies about the Second World War. If I went back
to the office, it was filled with a weird smell, like smoke from a
gun. There was nobody on the streets, in all of Broadway, I’d
never seen anything like this, what seemed like an empty lot, no cars
could come in, all of it was National Guard stationed there. If you
went in, they wanted to see your ID. Otherwise, I couldn’t go
back to my office. So after I returned, there was about one or two
weeks during which I couldn’t work. The doors
weren’t open, all the information and cases
were broken off. For half a year after I came back, I was constantly
experiencing great turmoil. All of Chinatown was completely
different, and all of New York City was completely different.</p>
<p>[Second
Tape]</p>
<p>Q: Mr.
Zhang, please continue speaking about the incident of 9/11.</p>
<p>ZHANG:
After 9/11 occurred, after I returned from Shanghai, the first thing
I did was go back to my office. But they couldn’t let me in,
because the entire National Guard had closed off everything starting
with Canal Street. As soon as it was closed off, if you wanted to
get in, they had to check your identification. For the first one or
two weeks, they couldn’t let you in. After they loosened up, I
went in, and upon going in, I discovered that the whole structure of
the place had changed. At the time, I didn’t know how to
describe it, and I didn’t know what the future would be like.
You could walk all over Chinatown very comfortably, because, wherever
you walked, there was no traffic. Lots of restaurants had closed
their doors, lots of businesses were closed. I thought, none of our
clients will come. We don’t have any more business. It wasn’t
just us without business, all of Chinatown was like a ghost town, and
lots of restaurants had closed up. If you went to eat lunch, lots of
restaurants had just one table or two tables. For a long time, the
whole business environment had changed. Our law firm’s
environment had changed too. From that point on, the immigration
business dropped off dramatically, and there was a huge change
everywhere. We thought that it would be a very, very gradual process
before it took off again, so we went through a very difficult period
of adjustment. That’s why we paid extra close attention to
giving law services to our clients. We could do some filing, do
immigration according to the situation in society. At least we could
provide every kind of – everything they were unclear about, we
helped them with. So the moment of 9/11, that moment is something I
probably will not forget my whole life. Even though I wasn’t
in the US at that time, my family and my office were very close to
the 9/11 twin towers, and I believe that experience was unique,
something that you can not forget in a lifetime. The shock I felt,
and the sense of powerlessness, I believe it
wasn’t any less powerful than the people who
personally saw the skyscrapers fall. The difference was only that
the sensation came from a different perspective.</p>
<p>Q: You came
here during the time of the Cultural Revolution. Did you suffer any
harassment during the Cultural Revolution? Comparing the troubles of
the Cultural Revolution with the events of 9/11, how did they impact
you differently?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
was very small during the time of the Cultural Revolution, so there’s
not that much that I can say. But my family had suffered some great
blows then. My father had been dragged off many times, and because
of the Cultural Revolution, his body became messed up, because at
that time he was a tax official. About ten months before the
outbreak of the Cultural Revolution, he had been sent to some new
place to straighten out their tax situation, and then that’s
when the Cultural Revolution started. He had been sent by the mayor
of Shanghai, so he ended up beaten nearly lifeless, and was nearly
dumped in Heilong River. At that time, during those experiences, I
was very small. I was only 12 or 13 years old. But I think that
experience caused me to grow up and become an adult. It was due to
the shock to my family, because just think, you never knew when it
might happen, sometime in the middle of the night, strangers might
knock on the door, that sound of knocking. In a moment, a life that
had been extremely tranquil became completely different. When there
was a knock on the door, you didn’t know if they had come to
snatch your father, or if they came to seize your home, or what.
That fear, that sense of being terrorized, to speak of it from a
different perspective, in my entire life, it has definitely been an
unforgettable experience. I was also able to mature because of that.
But the Cultural Revolution did not hurt me individually or
anything. To have experienced it, I think, to have experienced the
Cultural Revolution was an extremely different experience. That
experience gave me lots of internal things for my future growth. It
gave me a different way of considering certain problems. You could
say I became comparatively sophisticated, or relatively complicated,
or more mature than others.</p>
<p>
Q: After 9/11 occurred, after this terrorist strike, has
that incident caused your attitude towards America to change?</p>
<p>ZHANG: My
attitude towards America changed, and that change came from two
things. First, after 9/11, I suddenly realized that Americans love
their country to a much deeper level than I had previously noticed.
Their love is much broader and more common than I had realized.
Americans’ love of country, to speak from a certain
perspective, I think that compared to what I saw before in China, it
goes beyond the love Chinese have for their country, and it is a
broad-based feeling. They really love their country and they are
really united. This country’s feeling of identity also
suddenly increased dramatically. If 9/11 had never occurred, perhaps
during my entire lifetime, Americans would never gain the sense of
identity that they have now. The second change, I think the
political atmosphere has trended conservative. As far as the shift
towards conservatism goes, on the positive side is the devotion and
love for their country. Everyone’s feeling of loving their
country has become more conservative, or what has trended
conservative is people’s love of country. But I think that
from a certain point of view you can say that the change in
government, they’ve shut themselves off a little too much.
It’s started to be a bit different from the sort of energy that
existed at the founding of this country. To me, this change is
another thing that has deeply impacted me. Because my understanding
of America and my love for America had originally been based on my
study of many things, and based on my personal experiences prior to
9/11, my accumulation of over ten years of experience in America.
This still hasn’t changed. I think this is a good country,
it’s a country of immigrants. The good thing about this
country is that it is extremely democratic. The good thing about
this country is that it has a complete system of law which can
protect every kind of person, and you have freedom of speech, freedom
to do whatever you want, just as long as you don’t break the
law. This kind of a system, in other places in the world, at least
the places I’ve been to, in China, the Chinese legal system
isn’t as perfect as America’s, and its level of freedom
isn’t as broad as America. I also spent time in Hong Kong, and
at that time England hadn’t yet given it back to China, and it
was a very different place. It was Chinese people managing Chinese
people, a really great place. My feeling was that, Singapore and
Hong Kong are two places that have been managed
extremely well, but their levels of freedom can
obviously not compare to America. So, that’s something I
really like about America. But due to the changes after 9/11,
besides identifying myself even more with this country, I also felt a
little worried. A part of what I’d come to value about this
country had been taken away. I think part of the changes within the
American government made me feel that I had returned to China,
returned to the Cultural Revolution. Even though it wasn’t
that broad, and wasn’t that deep, still, a lot of times I’m
reminded of the experiences of my youth in China, of government
meddling in every sort of thing. Actually, speaking generally,
[America’s government] has become more encompassing, more
powerful in its meddling in the lives of common people than the
Chinese government. This is the thing that I fear most.</p>
<p>Q: You’ve
lived in different places, in mainland China, in Hong Kong, in
America. Which place do you think of as your home, and which country
do you feel that you are a member of?</p>
<p>ZHANG: New
York. That’s definite. Seven or eight years ago, the feeling
wasn’t this passionate. In the past seven or eight years, very
gradually, the feeling has become very strong. Why is that? Because
each time I returned to my home, I felt like I was a visitor, because
my community is already gone. Because China has developed very
quickly, and Shanghai, where I grew up, where my parents had moved,
they’ve torn up our home and moved around, and now the place
they live has an excellent environment. But that environment is
completely foreign to me. My classmates are gone, my friends are
gone, my community is gone. I hadn’t been there, experiencing
that whole period of development. So when I go back, I feel like a
visitor, nothing else, just completely like a visitor. Each time I
go, I’m really excited about going, but once I’m there, I
want to come back even quicker. When I return to New York, I feel
like it’s my home. New York is my home, not any other place in
America. I really like Hong Kong, I really like Beijing, these are
two other cities where I’ve spent a lot of time, and also
Maine, Portland, Maine. But none of these places give me a feeling
of home. My home is first of all New York, then Shanghai, and
Shanghai is already a place where I feel like I am a visitor. That’s
the complete and utter feeling I get.</p>
<p>Q: Can you
speak about your family? How many children do you have? What hope
do you have for your future?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
have one child. She came to America in 1997, and she’s
developed here very well. This is another part of the American
system that I really like. When she came, she couldn’t speak
English, and we gave her lots of time. This was another reason why I
wanted to start my own law firm, so that I could spend time at her
side. I feel that no aspect of work is as important as raising a
child. Let’s say I was extremely successful in my business,
and yet raised my child very badly, or she had some kind of problem,
I would think that I had failed. So, she’s been very
successful up to now. When she came in April of 1997, she couldn’t
speak even a little English, and yet she directly entered an American
neighborhood. Half a year later, she took place in a test and tested
into Bronx Science High School. Then after another half year, she
graduated and went on to study. After she studied there, her grades
were extremely good. We encouraged her to join her school’s
debate team, and she was on the debate team’s A Squad. When
she applied to colleges, there were about six that accepted her,
University of Chicago, the Department of Economics, and then there
was Brown University, Columbia University, Cornell University,
Dartmouth College, and then MIT. Finally, she chose MIT. Right now,
over there, she’s already a sophomore. Over there she chose to
be an exchange student, so this year in October, she’s going to
Cambridge, and will spend a year as an exchange student there. In
two years, she’ll graduate.</p>
<p>She too,
she also really likes America. Over time, she has also begun to feel
like a visitor in Shanghai. A few days ago, I discussed it with her,
this year, during the summer, you can go to Taiwan and Hong Kong,
because she’s really interested in Taiwan society, so she
planned to go for three months, and to stop a little in Hong Kong. I
asked her, “Do you want to go to Shanghai and see your
grandparents a little?” They’ve become pretty old. She
said she didn’t want to. I said, “Why don’t you
want to go there?” She said, “I have no freedom there.
They like to treat me as a child, and I have to be with them.”
The way she feels when she goes back is the way I used to feel.
Gradually, New York has
become her home. After she studied in college, and also when
she was studying in high school, I wanted to move to Queens, move to
a different place. She didn’t want to. She said, “When
I came to America, I lived at 78<sup>th</sup> Street and York Avenue,
right here. This is my community. If you move, I won’t live
with you.” So, that’s the reason I haven’t moved
up to now. You can see that I feel that America is a great country
for new immigrants. I’ve always said to her, you have to be
thankful to this country. You can’t just take from it, you
have to be like me, you have to think about what you can do for this
community, and then go do it. That includes my professional work.
I’ve done a lot of pro bono cases. With my clients, I don’t
just think of money only. I help them. I told her, you have to be
the same way. As an embryo, because you were born in under a
one-child system, you were the only one, and could be more
self-centered than a child emperor. When you came to America, you
can’t just take everything from here, without giving anything
back. This would be a life of failure. So, at the beginning of
junior high, she began to work for a not-for-profit. One summer, she
went to Hong Kong to do human rights, it was a worldwide human rights
society, she helped them with the practical aspects of the group, and
then she went to work in a hospital. I encouraged her to do it, if
she didn’t go, I pushed her to go. So, you definitely have to
pay back society. It’s not a matter of saying, I’m so
smart and I can do anything, because this society has given you a
lot. You have to see its good sides, you can’t absorb its bad
qualities, and …. So, so far, we feel that our home is here,
but we can’t completely chop off our natural connection to
China, that’s something we can’t chop off.</p>
<p>Q: What do
you hope she does later in life?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
hope that she does whatever she wants to do, and not follow some bad
path. The good thing about America is that no matter what you might
imagine, you can make your dream a reality. I think even when she
was very little, she had a dream. We in our generation are
definitely different from her. No matter how we think, we can’t
think the same way as her, because of our age. We’re from a
different generation. So I hope I don’t disturb her too much,
but I also want to give her appropriate guidance. Whatever path she
follows, if she enjoys it, I’ve got no problem, I will support
her.</p>
<p>Q: How old
are you now?</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
was born in 1955, on June 26<sup>th</sup>, 1955, and I am 49 years
old.</p>
<p>Q: You’re
very young.</p>
<p>ZHANG: I
think of it like this, this is a very exciting age. I can work hard
and do a little more before I retire, on behalf of the community, on
behalf of others, I can do anything.</p>
<p>Q: You’ve
come to America for such a long time, do you have any feelings about
the Chinese community in New York? Is there any place that needs to
be improved?</p>
<p>ZHANG: The
Chinese community has developed very quickly since I’ve come to
America. I’m very happy to see that the Chinese community of
today is different from the one that existed when I came to America.
At that time, I felt that Cantonese was very powerful as a unifying
force. But now you can see very easily, besides Cantonese, Mandarin
Chinese is an even larger group. Besides people of Fujian descent,
those that immigrated from Fuzhou, there are lots of immigrants from
every place in China, from Shanghai, from Beijing. Our Flushing
office has dealt with especially many clients who speak Mandarin, and
even besides those from Taiwan who speak Mandarin, people from all
over China all speak Mandarin. Now, the power of Chinese people is
much greater. Our population numbers have certainly increased very
much. But there’s still one problem, and that’s that
we’re still not very unified in our approach to politics. If
all the Chinese people could be a little more unified, regardless of
whether you’re from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Canton
[Guangdong], Fujian, Shanghai, Wenzhou, if everyone could unify, then
we could send someone from our community to City Council, or send the
person to run for the New York State Senate or House, or send them to
run for the school board, and send them everywhere, and make our
voice heard. For one thing, that would be great for the development
of the Chinese community.</p>
<p>
Chinatown is a pretty unique organization. I think that
Chinatown, this organization, it ought to unite Chinese organizations
with different backgrounds, because a lot of the people who came from
Taiwan, mainland China, Hong Kong, just like our backgrounds, they
had really good backgrounds even before they came over here. We
should completely incorporate this group of people into Chinatown,
and completely break through the traditions of Chinatown, the
reliance on traditional immigrants, and that would be a really great
development. Even now, I have seen the Chinese Consolidated
Benevolent Association, the United Chinese Organization, all kinds
have already started forming, it’s already developing in an
excellent direction, but it’s not fast enough. I think that we
should push this organization forward even faster, because Chinatown,
New York is already part of American culture. It’s not a part
of China’s culture. New York’s Chinatown is an extremely
important part of New York. If there wasn’t any Chinatown in
New York, the change to all of New York might be even greater than
what occurred from the loss of the twin towers, all of New York would
be different. So, this is something we Chinese residents of New York
can be very proud of, but the development has not gone far enough.
It should be more united, it should bring together people of every
background, put them together in the same organization, not fight
with each other, and everyone do as much as they can do. That way,
our strength would be really great. In a country like America, if
you have something good, they will notice you. All you need to do is
lift up your voice, and you’ll be noticed, but right now our
voices are too scattered, although the progress has been great.</p>
<p>Q: What
kind of plan do you have for the rest of your life?</p>
<p>ZHANG: My
plan for the rest of my life is like this, when I first came to
America, my principle was, I want to do my best to separate myself
from Chinatown. So I lived on 77<sup>th</sup> Street, and I didn’t
live in a Chinese community. As far as what changes will take place
during the rest of my life, two things are increasingly clear.
First, to the limit of my abilities, I will develop my law firm to
better serve the community. Whatever I can do, I will do. Secondly,
to the limit of my abilities, I will use the background and knowledge
that I gained previously in China together with the background and
knowledge that I
gained
in America to help increase relations between China and America. In
this area, I can do much more. These two areas, I can do a lot more.
I have already started working in these areas. I think that before
I retire, in these two areas, I can do a lot. I can do things for
the community, for the relationship between China and America, using
the knowledge I have towards both sides. This is what I want to do.</p>
<p>Q: What
future do you see for China? And it’s interaction with
America?</p>
<p>ZHANG: As
far as China’s future, or its relationship, interacting with
America, I think it will always be good. Along the way, there will
be a lot of endless problems, and that’s because of the Taiwan
issue. But that isn’t something for us to be concerned about.
Speaking as Chinese people, regardless of whether you come from
Taiwan or come from somewhere in China, we don’t think in that
way. My daughter wants to go to Taiwan, and I completely encourage
her to go. I also think about going to Taiwan, but I don’t
have the time. I think the reason that the relationship between
China and America will be good is that, outside of the Taiwan issue,
there really isn’t any major problems. China and America have
no quarrels. Besides one Chinese person at the time that I came to
the US, all around me, in my circle, my friends, there’s nobody
who dislikes America. We were all academics. Even if we didn’t
like the US, we would then dislike Japan and the Soviet Union even
more, or the Russia of today. We don’t have any problem with
America. So I think the two sides will have more and more
interaction, and it will be better all the time. Problems will
always be there, but in regard to the economic relationship and such,
America and China will become the world’s best partners, and
will even replace the close relationship between America and Japan.
I think after the Taiwan issue is solved, then everything must trend
in that direction.</p>
<p>Q: What
advice do you have for current government officials, or for the
Chinese community, what do you think could be done to better solve
some of the problems since 9/11?</p>
<p>ZHANG:
Speaking of the community, the problems after 9/11 could be handled
better. Regardless of the organization, they need to get rid of
their biases, and everyone needs to communicate better. Right now,
it doesn’t matter what group you belong to, what your past
history was. Chinese organizations have a habit of thinking that a
bunch of small cliques are better. I think that these cliques,
regardless of whether they are Cantonese people, mainland Chinese,
people from Taiwan, regardless of where they’re from, we should
break through these cliques, and lift up our voices. We don’t
want to have one group saying one thing and another group saying
something entirely different. When two groups have different
opinions, we need them to communicate, and after communication, both
sides should yield. It would be best for us to raise up one voice
together. In the time before and after I retire, I will work towards
this goal. I’ve written many articles for <em>Xing-Dao Daily
News</em>, and yet I don’t have a Cantonese background. I’ve
only spent a few years working in Hong Kong, and that’s not
because I’m some Chinese-American who’s been here a long
time. I’m from Taishan, and yet I’m leaving that
completely aside to speak up. I hope that everyone follows this same
path, tries to serve the community, do more to serve the community.
Leave lots of bias to the side. I still have lots of hope. If
people with our kind of background can encourage others, and
encourage ourselves too, and if we take part in society, I feel
certain that a much more powerful voice will come forth from our
community. The important thing is, we have to do something concrete.
The relationship between China and America is the same way, I will
use all my knowledge to serve the communities, on both sides.</p>
<p>Q: Thank
you for your time.</p>
<p>ZHANG:
You’re welcome.</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:這裏是美洲華人歷史博物館,紐約華埠9/11的口述歷史訪問。今天我們請到了張中越律師做訪問,訪問人是我吳翊菁。張律師,你可以講一下,你是什麽時候從大陸來到美國的?</p>
<p>張:我是1989年3月19日到達美國的。來美國的原因是美國的一個學術委員會讓我來參加一個國際會議,這個國際會議的主題是關於跨國公司在全球的經營。那麽我的主題是寫有關美國跨國公司在中國的直接投資,它的行爲模式,和日本的跨國公司在中國的投資和歐洲的跨國公司在中國投資的研究。那個研究是我自己的研究領域。我在中國的復旦大學待了十四年,包括讀本科,在那裏教書,然後又讀了碩士研究生,是世界經濟領域的。當中我接觸了大量的西方經濟學的理論,然後我又到了北京大學,作爲訪問學者去了一年,是在1980年至1981年。在這個期間,我中間參加了中國西方經濟學的研究會,當時我是最年輕的一個會員。因爲那個原因,我因爲有復旦大學及北京大學的背景,我有機會接觸到中國當時最好的一個學術領域,特別是對西方經濟學和海外直接投資這個領域,有機會可以進行些研究。我的本科是讀英美語言文學的。在1977年初畢業的時候,當時中國很少有讀了四年出來的大學生,我是在復旦大學的英美語言文學系。初出的目的,他們是培養我們做外交官的,派到各個駐外的使館和領館。<br>
從秘書開始,因爲得有語言的基礎,從三秘、二秘,一路培養下去。但是因爲77年的外交調整,我們畢業以後就留在學校裏了。留到學校裏之後,我就開始學經濟學。一面做老師,一面在經濟系聽課,所以有機會接觸到中國當時最好的經濟系和經濟課程設置的重心。<br>
<br>
問:你覺得你念文學是你自己的興趣吧?</p>
<p>張:念文學不是自己的興趣。因爲我在大學讀書的時候,那時還是在文化大革命當中,那是在1972年年底。當時的中國的大學,因爲文革的時候全部關閉了,剛剛開始。我們大概是唯一的一批從中學直接進到大學的,全國大概只有600個人。</p>
<p>問:你那時候在上海?</p>
<p>張:在上海復旦大學,對。</p>
<p>問:那你就算是第五代了?</p>
<p>張:第五代,第幾代的演算法都不是很相同,應該我比第五代再早一點。</p>
<p>問:那你覺得念文學跟念經濟是兩個很不同的領域?</p>
<p>張:文學和經濟是完全不同的領域。文學的話,你的想象力要很豐富,你的文學的背景要很好,你的思維要有一種比較豐富的,跟現實不同的一種想象力。<br>
但是經濟學的很多東西跟science(科學)結合在一起,你要有很好的邏輯思維。除了你對社會的現實要有很多的瞭解,理論上也要有很多的研究,要跟數學和科學領域有很大的聯繫。所以它們兩個基本上是不同的領域。</p>
<p>問:你覺得哪一個你比較喜歡,還是說它們是互補的?</p>
<p>張:我一開始進去讀英美語言文學的時候,我並沒有覺得因爲我喜歡我才進去,就是因爲他們選了我我才進去的。因爲我們每個中學在上海最多只有一個名額,有的名額還沒有。我的中學是一個很好的一個中學,格致中學。這個格致中學到現在爲止的歷史大概有150年,在清朝的時候已經設置了。當時我記得我們的同學有一千多個,就去了我一個。不是憑我的興趣,而是他們叫我去的。讀了以後,慢慢慢慢我覺得我對文學就很有興趣了。那麽畢業以後爲什麽可以轉經濟學呢?因爲我當時覺得,一個男同學畢業以後做老師,一直教英語,這只是一個工具。那麽我希望把英語作爲我的工具,而不是一個主要的專業。這樣的話,我可以在其他專業上有很大的優勢,我可以用英語讀很多的書。那麽正好到經濟系實習,我就對經濟有興趣了。總的來講,我對經濟學非常有興趣,對它的興趣要超過以前對文學的興趣。</p>
<p>問:你在文革以後可以念書,你覺得是很幸運嗎?你父母、你家裏怎麽看?</p>
<p>張:我在文革當中能讀書是非常之幸運的。因爲中國的中學生裏面,可能是幾百萬裏面,<br>
只有我們六百個每一年可以進去。那是歷史時期的一種特殊的産物吧。我們家裏當時也很開心,因爲我爸爸媽媽都沒有讀過大學。我媽媽是八歲開始就出來做童工的,我爸爸是十四歲就出來做童工的。他們的認識就是因爲他們在做工的時候一起在戲院裏面賣糖果。其實我父母的家庭以前,民國之前,都是很大的家庭;但是因爲中國社會的變化,家庭都敗落了。他們當然很開心我能讀大學。</p>
<p>問:你有其他的兄弟姐妹嗎?</p>
<p>張:我有一個弟弟。</p>
<p>問:他在做什麽?</p>
<p>張:他在上海黃浦區的一個政府部門工作。</p>
<p>問:那張先生,你來到美國以後,你對美國的第一個印象是什麽?爲什麽你後來想留下來呢?</p>
<p>張:初出來的時候我並沒有想要留下來,因爲在那兒的職業﹑那兒的工作﹑那兒的機會都是很好。但是因爲---,來的原因是,當時我的論文,我就隨便送了一篇報告過來。我說我想要參加這個會議,因爲國內有好幾個很出名的專家教授。有一個是中山大學經濟學院的院長,他是哈佛大學畢業的,是康橋大學畢業的,那是四十年代的時候。我在三﹑四次國際會議的場合碰到他。因爲當時我年齡相對比較小,英文比較好,所以直接可以閱讀大量的經濟學的著作。因爲我在復旦大學和北京大學的關係,當年接觸到這些最先進的資料。他跟我說,你應該出去,把你的觀點跟其他學者交流一下,<br>
因爲正好你出來的時候處於中國開始改革,開始吸收外資的時候;那麽你的一手資料和你的知識可能跟外國的學者不是很一樣,這樣出去的話會對你對我們這個國家都很好。所以因爲那樣的原因,他就給了我一個資訊說,那一年,88年的3月份紐約國際會議是有關跨國公司的,是登在美國一本雜誌上面的。那麽我在87年的10月份就寫了一封信給他們,說我有興趣參加你們這個會。他們說你報一個題目過來,那我就報一個題目,說美國跨國公司在中國的直接投資,它的行爲模式和日本和歐洲公司的比較。因爲我在這個領域裏面的研究當時在中國是很前面的,特別是我對日本跨國公司在中國的直接投資。當時中國國內很少有人說日本有什麽理論的,跨國公司的直接投資;我說它有,它跟歐洲,跟美國不一樣。所以因爲我的這篇論文,很多人都知道我。我給那個組織委員會寫了一封信,他們就馬上給我復信,說你這個題目的本身就是對我們的會議的一個貢獻,沒有這樣的題目過來,希望你趕緊把論文寫過來。所以我就在10月份把這個論文用英文打好後送到委員會,他們就邀請我了。但是在邀請我的時候,我說我當時得不到資助,因爲我當時已是講師以上的一個角色,他們已經在等待批我的副教授。當時因爲年輕的副教授很難批的,我已經都報上去了,等我這次出國回去以後就要批給我了。因爲我出版了不少著作,西方經濟學的書,所以來的時候沒有準備好要來。他們邀請我過來的話,我就跟他們講我在這方面的知識。</p>
<p>問:那爲什麽你留下來?</p>
<p> 張:留下來是因爲來了之後我就覺得接觸了很多學者,我想只來幾天的話,可能對美國不會瞭解很多。儘管我花了十幾年的功夫學了大量的有關東方和西方的經濟學,教了好幾年的書,我覺得應該稍微留下來再看一下,看看這個社會到底跟我們以前書上看到的、大量接觸的有什麽不同。那麽只是幾天的功夫的話,我會覺得比較困難。第二個原因是,費用全部是我自己出的,來的飛機票什麽的都是我自己出的。大會給了我一部份的補貼,就是旅館的費用,因爲通常是不會給補貼的,給了我幾天旅館費用。那麽我就簽證,一下子就出來了,想稍微住久一點。住了一陣子以後,有一些另外的原因,可能與我原來的學校不是很開心。那麽這樣的話就造成我住更久一點,就這樣住下來了。</p>
<p>問:辦這個會議的組織是哪一個?</p>
<p>張:辦這個會議的組織是美國企業管理協會,美國國務院下面委託Hofstra University在長島的,組織的一個非常高層次的國際會議。</p>
<p>問:那你來以後在紐約住在哪里?</p>
<p>張:開會以後,出來以後,我什麽情況都不瞭解,我只是想出來看一下這個世界到底怎麽回事。當時身上錢並不是很多,跟當時在Hofstra University的留學生,有一個是法---,我都不認識他們。一位是法學院的,一位是經濟系的,一位是數學系的。他們說長島其實離紐約很近,紐約是一個非常不同的地方。<br>
他們說你就是坐長途汽車,然後坐Subway(地鐵),就可以直接到紐約。那裏有報紙,你可以看一下,有很大的中國人的社區。這樣的話呢,我就把兩個箱子寄在那個學校裏面,然後就坐Bus,然後坐Subway到紐約。</p>
<p>問:你來到紐約,你的第一個印象是什麽?</p>
<p>張:來紐約的時候,當時我有很多不同的感想。第一,我經濟上沒有多少的費用,我當時身邊只有29塊美金。原因是我出來的時候是自費,當時國內的收入是比較有限。我們也沒有可能說自己有很多的外幣,不可以有外幣的。所以出來的時候我借了一部份同學的錢,因爲他們到美國來過,他們有積蓄在那邊,他們借了美金給我。我買了飛機票,把主要的生活費用基本cover一下,然後到紐約只有29塊錢了。那麽第二的話呢,假如不到唐人街來的話,其他地方他們都說會很困難。因爲儘管當時語言文學學了很久,也教過英語,但是不知道我講的語言跟美國本地講的語言能不能溝通,能不能很方便。所以都是很大的距離在那邊,所以一下就走到了唐人街。來的第一天,我不知道住在哪里,他們說,你買一份報紙,有世界日報,當時還有中報和其他的報紙。你可以去---,上面有找工作﹑租房子的。我就這樣沒有朋友,沒有親戚,就過來。我記得來了以後,一下從地鐵出來以後,我坐在Mott Street和Canal Street的交口這個地方。第一個感覺是,啊,這麽多中國人的東西、招牌,走的人全部是中國人,覺得很親切。馬上又感到很陌生,因爲當時看到的中國人很多,很少人講我本地的語言,上海話,很少人講普通話,或者是說國語,都是講廣東話。廣東話我一個字都聽不懂。所以坐在那兒的話,第三個,有點彷徨。<br>
身上沒有錢,不知道第一天住在哪里,然後工作在什麽地方找。所以,那個街頭我坐了大概是半個小時,我吃了兩個雞蛋。這個雞蛋是在Hofstra University他們幾個私派的留學生出來之後給我帶出來的,說,你去看怎麽樣?所以,第一天就是這樣到紐約來的。來了以後,我就從唐人街一直在找工作,每個餐館去問有沒有工作可以做。找到工作的話,我可以靠自己的能力,或者是到學校裏讀書或者先安定下來。所以一直從中國街每個餐館找,他們說,你會不會講廣東話?我說,不會。那麽他們說,就不可以了,你不講廣東話,不能溝通,就沒有工作機會。我一路從唐人街走到Upper Westside,往西邊走,走到了第八大道左右的57街,走進了一家中國餐館。我一路看到中國餐館我就進去問他們,那麽這時候見到了一位先生,挺不錯的一位先生,他是從中國山東來的。他在那個飯店裏面,我記得那個飯店叫“湖南園”吧,做外賣經理。他說,你這個人看起來是新到這個地方,什麽地方來的?我說,我是從上海來的。他說,我們裏面有一位送外賣的先生,是上海人,我幫你跟他介紹一下,看你是好像沒有個地方落腳,先進來給你吃一頓飯吧!</p>
<p> 我在他們飯店裏面吃的飯,我記得當時他給我吃了芥蘭牛和湯,然後給了我五塊錢的quarters。他說,你就用這個錢去打電話,到處打電話找你的朋友。我說,我說我沒有朋友在這邊,我也沒有親戚在這邊。他說,你反正找工作什麽都可以。我說,我怎麽謝你,我都不認識你,你也對我這麽好,特別是第一天,我都不知道住在什麽地方。他說,都不要緊,以後你假如能成功的話,請我吃頓飯就可以了。但到現在爲止,我也不知道這位先生在哪里。在這個店裏面,有一個上海來的先生出來了,他比我年輕。<br>
他看了我一眼之後,他說,這樣吧,我看你這個人挺好的,我住在皇后區,這個地方叫Rego Park。他住在很小的一個地下室,basement,房租也是很便宜。我估計你也不會有錢,你就跟我一起住吧,然後你找到地方,你就搬出去。所以,那天我就跟他回到了Rego Park皇后區那個地方。住的地方是很小,這個房間除了放一張床,旁邊比床大一點的位置就沒有了。他說,這樣吧,他把床的床墊拉下來,他睡在床墊上,我就睡在spring box上面。在那個上面睡了三個月,當時也不知道,因爲沒有錢,很緊張,說要去買個床的話又會很貴。初出來的話,都很緊張,所以在那個上面整整睡了三個月。以後就開始找工作,找工作就是因爲那位上海的先生,他叫陳建新,Jason,非常好的一個年輕人,他說,這樣,我幫你介紹。我就開始慢慢慢慢在餐館裏面開始送外賣。同時,我唯一沒想到的是,他說,你完全可以---,因爲你是B-1 Visa進來的,你可以申請轉成學生身份。我說,我可以,但是我沒有人幫我做擔保。他說,我來幫你做擔保。他因爲家庭有很多人移民在美國和加拿大,他就轉了一大筆錢到我的銀行裏面。我跟他認識都差不多只有一兩個星期,轉到我銀行裏面八千多塊錢。這樣的話我就自己找了一個Kaplan,那個英語學校,就去轉學生身份,然後在那裏學語言。就這樣轉成功了,所以那兩位,特別是後面那一位是非常不容易的,我非常感謝他。</p>
<p>問:那張先生,好像你以前在大陸是教書的,而且工作都比較好,沒那麽辛苦吧?那你來到這裏要從底做起,要可能做餐館。這個落差應該很大,你自己怎麽去適應?</p>
<p> 張:這個落差非常之大,要比所有的文字寫出來,你怎麽描寫它大的話,都可能不一定很確切地能把當時的落差表現出來。我在大陸的環境相對來講非常不錯,我的機遇都是不錯的,然後我做的工作都已經到了很好的程度。我到美國來並不是因爲我的環境不好,我過來要換環境,主要是我剛才說的兩個原因。一個是,從少到大,我處在中國一個變化最大的時刻,從很封閉,從共產黨各個方面都管制得很緊,到慢慢慢慢政府開始在經濟上放鬆了,開始對外面開放了。變化非常之大的時候,所以我有一種urge,特別是我學的是英美語言文學和西方的經濟學。我有這個衝動,我一直想出來看一下我以前學的東西是不是跟這兒教的東西,或者跟這個社會是一回事?這是一個非常重大的一個衝動。我其實在88年之前的十年裏面,每一年我都有機會出來,到美國,到歐洲去。因爲我當時畢業的時候沒有21歲的大學生,英語在國內相對來講已經是正式專業畢業的,而且是在復旦大學,全國就是六百個。那麽,我申請留學任何時候都是可以的。當時沒有申請留學的原因是我覺得中國開始變化了。假如我出去讀英美語言文學的話,除了語言我什麽都不懂,國內變化這個過程完全我就失去了。以後再回國來,到中國來工作的話,我就是完全不瞭解中國的人了。所以我就轉學經濟學,瞭解社會,很大的參予;這十年裏面我沒有來。所以,我出來並不是因爲我以前的環境不好,但是我的衝動可能要比以前在中國環境不好,想出來換一個環境的那種衝動更大,理由是我已經是一個知識份子了。知識份子的那個想象力和那種激情可能要比其他不同的階層的人更天真,所以我這個天真的想象力是我非常重大的一個衝力。<br>
當然也有一點其他的原因,但都不是很重要。</p>
<p>問:那你來到美國以後,你覺得你看到的美國跟你以前課本上念的美國或者想象的美國有什麽不一樣?</p>
<p>張:我看到的美國,這樣說吧,我看到的紐約,我覺得跟美國其他地方不一樣。因爲我第一站是停在---,我進美國的第一站是在San Francisco,舊金山。機場裏面待了四個小時,轉飛機就到了Washington DC。在舊金山的時候,海關的官員和移民局的官員都很客氣,都很友好。我也有看到亞洲人的面孔,我覺得可能是有一種比較親近感,沒有那麽的陌生。到了Washington DC,我以爲是美國管理學會的會長會派人來接我,因爲我帶了上海市汪道涵的一封信,跟他們來討論在中國舉行一個國際會議的事情。我帶了他的信來的,沒想到他到義大利出差去了,沒有收到我這個傳真。所以我在飛機場裏面就很緊張,沒人來接我,我也不知道出去怎麽走,那麽就在機場裏面睡了一個晚上。當時緊張到什麽地步呢?因爲完全是一個全新的國家,沒有亞洲人的面孔,有兩三個不同族裔的,有黑人的少數民族,有西班牙語系的少數民族,大概四﹑五個人在機場候機室裏面等著。我是唯一的一個亞洲人,我當時有一點怕,心情有一點怕。所以一晚上睡在那裏面,一晚上沒出去,反正二十分鐘醒一下,十五分鐘醒一下,擔心行李不要給人家拿掉,不知道會發生什麽情況。第二天一早碰到一個清潔工,機場的清潔工,他看起也來是一個黑人和白人結合的一個民族。他說,你這樣的情況下,我給你兩個quarter,你打電話找你的朋友。那時候,我有一個George Washington University,一個中國教授的電話,我就打給他。他說,<br>
喔,你已經來了!他就來接我了。所以那個人我也是很感謝他的,儘管給了我兩個quarter,但是我就可以跟外面的朋友聯繫上,所以一下就把我接出去了。</p>
<p>問:張先生,你可以講一下在紐約你從餐館做起,那你怎麽後來變成一個律師呢?中間有什麽故事?</p>
<p>張:紐約做餐館是這樣,我初出時讀書讀語言文學---,在Kaplan讀語言,我想把英語提高一下。儘管我們學了很多的英語,跟這兒美國人講的英語還是有一點區別。我可以跟人家溝通,沒什麽問題,我可以發表演講。但我現在回過頭去想,那個時候的英文是以中國學校裏面學出來的爲主,和在這兒生活一段以後的英文應該是不一樣的。儘管現在的英文和以前非常之不一樣,但是我還是感覺到和美國土生土長的美國人相比的話還是有區別。當時學了以後,就過來看了一下這個社會,就覺得在紐約的Chinatown這個地方可能不一定適合我。不適合我的原因是我不會講廣東話,不知道怎麽融合進去。所以讀語言是在57街Westside,然後做一點送外賣的工,讀了一陣以後就覺得好像是光讀語言的話跟我以前讀的書不太符合,我應該是走回我的專業。所以我就申請到City University of New York, Graduate Center,申請它的經濟學博士,PhD program in Economics。那個主任非常好。他說,你是復旦大學畢業,而且有碩士學位,我就完全承認你的學分。36個學分都承認,就錄取我了。錄取我以後,我就讀了一個學期的PhD in Economics。但是突然一下錢就用光了,打工打來的錢,學費要自己交,讀書的時候又不能做工,學費一下沒有了。就很緊張,所以又出來做工,<br>
在82街Second Avenue第二大道做外賣經理。做了以後和幾個中國出來的教授,都是年輕的,聽他們說,在五個街口之外,有一個餐館要賣掉,然後說去看一下吧。就這樣一看的話一個星期之後就把那個餐館合夥賣下來了,在85街第3大道,就這樣一下進入這個餐館。餐館的工作很辛苦,因爲你有很大的responsibility。一個主要的考慮是我覺得在中國我們沒有這個商業環境,所以我要做生意精明一下,那麽可能對美國社會一下就會熟悉進來了。當時除了買餐館的時候請了一個律師之外,其他所有的事情都是我們自己做的。申請衛生牌照,各種各樣的license都是我們自己做。所以當時做的時候我就說,我做十年五年,我一定要重新回學校。做的時候就是這樣考慮的,所以就做進去了。做得非常辛苦,第一年七天沒有休息。當時身體很好,因爲30歲出頭,我讀書的時候鍛煉得很多,身體也是很好,所以精力沒有問題,睡覺睡得少也沒有問題。就是當時有一種衝動,就是想做成一個事業瞭解這裏的社會,所以就這樣進去了。那麽現在叫我再進去的話,照那樣做的話,我就不一定會有這些了。</p>
<p>問:那你在那個餐館做了多久?</p>
<p>張:餐館是從89年的年底開始一直做到93年的時候,93年還是94年就賣出去了。我當時決定要去讀法學院的時候餐館還在,我讀了一個學期又回來,把餐館賣了,再回去讀法學院。大概差不多做了4年左右。</p>
<p>問:那後來你爲什麽那麽有興趣在這裏當律師?</p>
<p> 張:當律師的事情是這樣,因爲讀法學院的故事很有趣,怎麽有趣呢?當時我跟我太太在商量,回去讀書的話要讀什麽好?因爲我儘管是很幸運,我在文化大革命當中有機會上大學,但同時也受到了文化革命對教育衝擊的一種副作用,或者一種影響。什麽影響呢?因爲中學的時候很多學校都沒有規則了,上學的課程都打亂了,文革之前的正規的基礎教育都沒有了。所以我們的數理化學得非常之少,所以我回去讀書的話我是讀經濟學,當時考慮到讀經濟學,美國很多學校都有數理化的東西在裏面,特別是數學的模式。這樣的話,我說這不是我的特長,我任何專業要去讀的話我希望避開數學,數學沒有正式地訓練過。所以這樣的話選擇就不是很多,除了經濟學以外,你可以選歷史History,你可以選Administration行政的,你可以選政治學Politics,你可以學法學。那天晚上我記得很清楚,我說讀什麽比較好呢?我們就flip the coin。一個quarter flip上去,head or tail。假如是head,我們就去讀法學院。最後是head,就決定讀法學院,就這樣去了。</p>
<p>問:你是跟你太太一塊去念的嗎?</p>
<p>張:我自己一個人念的。</p>
<p>問:你太太是後來從大陸過來的嗎?還是在這邊---</p>
<p>張:她是比我來得早,她是在做不同的專業。</p>
<p>問:你們是怎麽認識的?</p>
<p>張:在紐約認識的。</p>
<p> 問:讀法學院以後,你什麽時候開自己的律師樓?</p>
<p>張:讀了法學院96年畢業之前,我花了3年---。我在University of Maine, School of Law讀法學的。我最後一年是作爲visiting student to Brooklyn Law School,因爲我的家在紐約,我希望回到紐約,我太太也在紐約。所以當時就申請Brooklyn Law School作爲visiting student,它是一個私立的法學院。所以96年畢業之後,就停在紐約了。在紐約的時候,當時並沒有覺得自己要出來開律師事務所,因爲我所有的背景都是跟大公司﹑大的學校﹑大的機構有關係的。特別是讀法學院當中,每一年我都要到香港去,作爲training或者是作爲intern,幫香港的兩家非常好的律師事務所做一些法律上面的工作。他們請我去的原因是因爲我對中國的制度,對中國的法律很熟,我又在美國讀法學,我對香港的情況也是比較熟,因爲我到美國來之前寫過幾篇文章。當時說香港今後和中國今後的變化會是怎麽樣,是中國大陸對香港的影響更大一點呢,還是香港的影響對中國大陸更大一點,我有很深入的研究。所以他們請我去是做IPO股票上市的一部份的工作,他們是幫中國的公司在香港股票交易事務所做H股的上市,做評估和做很多underwriting。那麽我是幫他們做reorganization(重組)裏面這部分,他們要用我的expertise(專才)在這個領域去看,這個deal可不可以通過,重組的話怎麽弄。所以幫他們---,直接我是對他們的management負責,儘管我當時還沒畢業。所以,我每年夏天的時候,從94年開始,94、95、96年都有去,有一年的冬天都去。兩個律師事務所一個是“Deacons Graham and James,”是香港最大的,第一個firm。另外一個是一個Top 5 London City firm, called “Simmons & Simmons。”那一段時間對香港的很多情況就開始熟悉起來。</p>
<p>問:那你是一開始就從事辦移民申請的案件嗎?還是有做別的?</p>
<p> 張:那個時候完全是做公司法的,corporate,我沒有想到要從事移民或其他什麽。但是在1997年有個情況變化,我畢業以後不久,我的女兒從中國上海移民過來。因爲我是在95年就申請成爲美國公民了,那麽我就把她申請到美國來。她來了以後我就覺得我在大的公司裏面做的話要花費大量的時間,我沒有時間take care她。她來的時候是13歲,這樣的時候是一個年齡很重要的時候,所以我就要花更多的時間和她在一起。那個時候我就第一次想,我出來自己做吧。以前都不喜歡自己出來做的,那麽自己出來做的話跟我以前做的法律就完全不同了。所以我就辭掉了我那時候在美國大的律師事務所工作的機會,到了一家專門做意外傷害的律師事務所。挺好的一個New York City firm,在Vesey Street,在中國人的社區裏面也是很出名的。作爲它的華裔律師,專門打意外傷害的官司。我的工資降低了非常非常地多,我就是想有很多的experience,上法庭的經驗。所以在那兒做了十個月,天天上法庭,大量地接觸了中國的客人,代表律師事務所,意外傷害和工傷的。十個月之後我就---,1998年十月份我就自己出來開律師事務所,99年初正式開始了。開始以後我做的業務是general practice,因爲你一個人出來的話是一個人的律師事務所,solo practitioner。開始就是我一個人,移民我也做,公司法也做,離婚也做,刑事糾紛的也做,總的來說是一個general practice。相對來講在中國人的社區移民的比較多,占到了50%以上。</p>
<p>問:那你覺得你做移民申請有什麽挑戰嗎?而且我想美國移民政策一直在改變,對你的生意有什麽影響?</p>
<p>張:我剛剛出來的時候,我的幾個已經在外面做律師的朋友跟我說,比較困難,市場很緊張。<br>
原因是我99年初出來,98年年底出來,99年年初之前,正好有幾撥新的移民法從96年開始有改革。1996年之前非常容易做,律師也不是很多,移民法很寬鬆。96年以後有了很大的改變,97年,98年,因爲97年的改變又給當時的律師帶來很多機會。我出來的時候已經沒有什麽現成的新的移民法,律師也很多,挑戰性就很大。舉一個例子,在96年、97年新的移民法改革以後,移民法裏面有一條規定,申請政治庇護必須要在進入美國一年之內提出來,不提出來以後就沒有機會了,除非你有很強的理由告訴法庭爲什麽這個一年的限制對你不適用。這個限制要求是很嚴格的,突然你的國家發生變化,美國的法律發生變化,或者有很多很多非常例外的情況發生,你才可以提出政治庇護。在96、97年之前,隨時隨地你可以提出來,你進入這個國家五年、十年都可以的。總的來說,移民法就是越來越緊。我出來的時候是在移民法越來越緊張的時候出來的。當時很多中國的客戶,特別是從福建來的,他們有很多移民的問題來問;但是當時的事機並不是很好,競爭也是很激烈。</p>
<p>問:你可以講一下這個行業嗎?這個華人律師在紐約的行業?在你來這裏這麽多年有什麽變化?</p>
<p>張:律師行業的變化很大。在我開業,98年年底開業以後的一個最大的變化是2000年底到2001年的4月底之中,當時的總統,克林頓總統,簽署了一個行政命令,讓很多本來是非法的移民可以拿到移民法的福利。我們通常稱它是245(i)。245(i)就是一種特赦,不是一個全面的特赦。它給在2000年12月底之前已經進入美國的,沒有被驅逐出境的,沒有法庭程式的一個機會提出移民的申請;<br>
但你要證明2000年12月底你已經在美國。這個申請必須要在2001年4月30日之前提出,你可以提出申請勞工紙,親屬的移民,各種各樣的移民,只要是合法都可以提出來。提出來以後,儘管過了2001年4月30日,因爲你在這個之前提出,你就有那個福利了。這個福利就是,你在2001年4月30日之前提出的申請不批准,那麽你以後再提出其他的移民案件申請假如能批准的話,就可以讓你合法地在美國調整身份,不需要到國外去調整身份。那個時候是一個業務非常忙的時候,除了這個之外,整個移民法在往下調整。2001年4月30日的245(i)實行了之後,整個移民律師,整個新移民都是很開心。因爲覺得美國的政策在放鬆,給很多非法進來的人一種機會,讓他們在這裏提出調整身份。受益的人可能有幾百萬,我們中國人社區受益也是很大。我們事務所當時的發展就是在這一撥245(i)新的法律裏面一下子發展起來的,很多很多的業務就是這樣過來的。原因是我們調整的比較快,我們對新移民法的理解比較快。很多律師事務所失去了這樣的一個機會;他們覺得這個東西不要去搞它,沒有做,就失去了這個機會。所以有一批律師事務所就一下膨脹起來,我們算是其中的一個。一下子律師事務所的規模大了,客戶的規模也大了。當然在這裏面就學到很多新的東西,很多新的挑戰,因爲我們在1998年之前沒有做自己的律師事務所。在這個移民法以後一直會覺得新一撥的245(i)會重新再出來,克林頓總統會簽名,說延長這樣一個法律。這個對新移民,特別對我們中國的移民,新移民,沒有身份的,是非常之好的,可以得到它的好處。然後,總統選舉之前他沒有簽署行政命令。當時新的總統,布希總統上臺之後,他已經答應了,說這個命令要簽署。他跟國會已經提出了,國會的參議院和衆議院都已經討論了,沒有問題,會簽的,把這個法案延遲下去,讓後來的人或者當時沒有機會申請的人重新申請。9/11爆發了,整個移民法都改變了。這個改變就是向非常保守的方向改變。所以這個以後的整個移民法的改變對新移民,不管是非法的,特別是偷渡的,等於設置了非常多的障礙。因爲9/11以後的變化,移民法的收緊,<br>
各種背景調查,各種新的移民法的頒佈,給特別是非法偷渡的移民帶來了很多的困難。我覺得從我們的業務當中來看,偷渡的人減少了。以前大量的偷渡的人來,因爲美國移民法修整以後,不讓你這麽容易申請政治庇護,或是不讓你這麽容易可以直接地通過很複雜的法庭程式來得到好處,那麽他們來的就相對比較少。舉一個例子來說,以前的移民法的上訴都要好幾年的時間才會有結果下來,一個上訴案子都是要由三個移民上訴庭的法官合議了之後,判決下來才可以的,兩個支援,一個反對,那麽兩個人的意見就占上峰了。那麽這樣的話要五、六年或四、五年的時間,都是很正常的。一個好處是在你上訴還沒有決定的這幾年時間你就是合法在這裏的。你可以做工,沒有人會抓你或者怎麽樣。那麽,9/11前後,9/11前面就已經開始考慮變了,9/11以後就變了。上訴法庭很多的法官就被解除職務了,換到其他地方去了。現在只有一個法官就可以定上訴案贏或者輸。他們大量加快這樣的一個程式,討論也沒有這麽仔細。所以否定移民的案例,第一是非常之多,比以前多很多,第二是非常之快。所以整得新移民很困難。</p>
<p>問:你可以講一下你高峰期,也就是克林頓那個時期,你的客戶大概有多少?跟現在9/11之後比一下減了多少?</p>
<p>張:這樣說吧,我沒有一個統計說,高峰期的客戶有多少。高峰期的時候,我每天都要上法庭的。政治庇護的申請,我每天至少一個法庭。最多的一天我記得是七個法庭,四個不同的法官。我跑來跑去,跑來跑去,好像一天不到移民法庭去上庭的話,就會覺得空很多。現在呢,假如一個星期裏面有兩、三次法庭<br>
已經是很忙了。就是,一個星期裏面有一、二、三次法庭,不管是否在一天,或者是在一起,都是很忙了。很明顯的是,這個我可以告訴你,變化是很清楚的。政治庇護的申請大量地減少,減少的程度在我們的業務裏面是95%。什麽樣的原因造成政治庇護案件的減少?因爲偷渡進來的案件減少了。通常我們的政治庇護假如說是客人來請我們幫他做擔保,有親戚在這邊說,能擔保出來,不要讓他在裏面,他出來之後會做政治庇護。那麽你假如是偷渡進來,被政府拘禁了,就是關在裏面的人少了,自然政治庇護提出來的人也少。所以更多的變化是我們的 50%的案子是把客人從移民監獄裏面合法地擔保出來的業務,50%都沒有了。和9/11之前比,就有這麽大的變化。</p>
<p>問:那你怎麽去調整你的業務呢?</p>
<p>張:第一,儘管我們的業務少,它對你現在的影響還沒有這麽大,原因是你從非法入境到你法庭程式的結束少則一、兩年,多則三、四年。從移民局的程式到法庭的程式,一庭一庭上下來,到上訴結束,總歸是這樣。所以你現在的影響實際上是兩年前政策的改變到現在才會體現出來。所以,我們現在還是有一部分的案子以前過來的,還沒結束。那麽,從現在開始沒有的話,我可以預計兩年以後這類的案子基本是相對非常之少了。我們的調整是這樣,我們儘量幫助---。因爲儘管是法律改變得很緊張,但是還是有很多不同的移民案子,我們繼續還是做,假如有合法擔保的話我們會做。合法政治庇護申請的話,我們還是做。我們以前做的很多的客戶,政治庇護案件成功了,綠卡申請成功了,<br>
他們有很多新的案子會出來。他們的親戚朋友的移民,父母姐妹的移民;然後他們穩定了以後,他們要買房子,他們要做生意,他們都會回來找我們的。9/11以前我們做的filing做得不是很多,就是說親屬移民,結婚的移民。從2003年之前開始,我們就很注意這方面的情況,我們在這個領域已經是做得非常成功的。幫助大量的親屬移民,跟政治庇護沒有關係的這種移民,我們發展得非常快。這樣說吧,我們現在在這方面的業務以前只是我們,9/11之前,或者剛好我們開始的時候,只是10%、15%。那麽現在這方面移民filing的業務已經變成我們80%的業務了。這樣,它很大程度可以彌補掉政治庇護沒有成功的這方面的情況。第二方面的原因,我們覺得新的移民法可能還會出來,可能是程度不同,範圍不同。比如說,布希總統說的,臨時計劃,或者國會參衆兩議院提的各種各樣的方案,民主黨,共和黨的。完全是因爲現在政治的關係,最近還沒有---。去年就開始講了,因爲選舉的關係,可能他們在選時機,看哪一段時間會出來,這個計劃是其中之一。Dream Act是另外一個,就是說,你小孩子進來讀高中讀了五年,一直在學校裏讀書;你能證明,他們就會給你綠卡,這些最後都沒定。但是,我估計今年或明年差不多應該是時間要出來了。一旦這一類新的法律出來,我們的律師事務所一定會走在前面,因爲我們對前面一輪的245(i)一下全部投入進去,後面的消化做得很好。特別是我們後面做移民的filing做得非常好。這樣的話,把移民服務的範圍,兩個方面一下都加入進去了。假如新的法律出來,我們發展的餘地要比前一次更大,我們都已經準備好了。我們事務所是---,因爲我是學者的關係,我不知道其他律師事務所是怎麽做的,我們有一個內部的培訓的一個機制。我們是on the weekly basis,我們開會討論新的案例,我們碰到的比較難的案例,或者是新的移民法。我們在去年的六月份又新開設了第二家律師事務所,<br>
在Flushing,除了這家以外在Flushing,完全是我們內部機制運作的另外一個結果。所以,我們兩個事務所對中國人的兩個最大的社區提供服務。在那邊,根據我們積累的經驗發展得也不錯。所以,我們有一個內部的機制,一直在討論,一直在學習,在報紙上我們也有發表文章,是經常性的。這樣對我們對新的移民法的理解,對客戶的服務和準備上,有一個非常好的基礎。</p>
<p>問:你可不可以講一下9/11以後,就是收緊的這個移民政策,那好像現在如果申請綠卡,或者是移民的申請,大概現在時間會拖長多少?</p>
<p>張:申請綠卡有各種各樣不同的原因,政治庇護成功的話,你可以申請綠卡,有不同的規定的。比如說,法官批給你是因爲你在中國受到一胎化政策的影響,批你的綠卡,這個綠卡要等很久的時間。它首先要等每年一千個的名額,每年只能批一千個,因爲政治庇護一胎化原因批准的政治庇護。所以,現在已經是有差不多一、兩萬人排隊在那邊,等到他說你排到了就要好幾年。等你排到以後你要申請綠卡,又是一個排期,又要受另外一個名額的限制。這樣的話,政治庇護的綠卡申請,以前---,最早五、六、七、八年之前可能三年、四年都可以了,現在要拖到九年到十年。平時的綠卡申請也拖久了。爲什麽拖久了?因爲加上了9/11以後的一個背景調查。把本來比如說,舉個例子吧,夫妻之間,或者是太太、或者是先生是美國公民,申請另外一方。以前在紐約差不多一年左右就可以完成這個程式,因爲現在加進了你的背景調查,至少在兩年以上,有的可能拖到三、四年,因爲背景調查沒有一個時間規定。所有其他的綠卡的移民至少延後了一至兩年。</p>
<p> 問:那這樣的話對你的工作或者是生意會有影響嗎?</p>
<p>張:這個對案件有好的影響,也有壞的影響。好的影響是,你可以幫客人提供更多的服務。一個服務就是到移民局去催。有很多案件申請了以後,它拖是沒有原因的。所以我們之所以很多地方很成功就是因爲我們一直幫他們催,一直提醒移民局,你的案子審得怎麽樣。他們不會馬上給你回音,但催幾次以後,他們會給你回音。壞的方面是對客戶不好,因爲客人申請一般都是很著急,因爲移民綠卡的申請是一個綜合性的工程。綠卡的批和不批對申請人的其他的社會關係産生很大的影響。對他、申請人的父母,對他今後工作的安排,對申請人的每天的生活都有很大的影響。所以,等於把不落實放在他們的肩膀上,會帶來很大的困難。因爲我是新移民過來的,我知道,因爲你身份申請的不落實,對你今後的很多安排會有很多confusion在裏面,很多的壓力的。你長遠的安排也不能做,所以這樣的話對他們是非常不好的。現在政府一直在說,加錢給移民局,讓他們加快這個進程。我是聽說最近新的申請反而會比一、兩年之前的申請會快。原因是政府給了很多的預算給移民局,讓他們加快。我沒有確定的消息。但聽他們說,你現在新的申請可能反而比舊的會快。</p>
<p>問:你可以講一下,你處理過那麽多案子,有什麽比較難忘的經驗?</p>
<p>張:難忘的經驗非常多,因爲我是一個性情中人。政治庇護的案件,一個是你提供專業的法律服務,這是一個方面。但是,律師是唯一的一個,除了法官、檢察官、翻譯官和家庭所有人之外的,一個全程可以看清這個申請人的內心和他外在的所有東西。你會看到他的感情的變化,你會看到他的困擾在什麽地方,<br>
你會看到他的擔心在什麽地方,你會看到他的喜怒哀樂在什麽地方。所以,有幾個政治庇護的案子---,每一個案子對我的牽動都是很大。通常客人都是希望自己能通過政治庇護得到身份,我也一樣。除了因爲我是律師之外,作爲我從中國來的中國人的背景,從內心來講,在符合美國的法律情況下,我有一種情感是傾向他們的。第一是法律,就是你一定要遵照美國的法律做。我是個律師,我有職業道德,肯定沒有問題,這是第一、最高的原則。第二的話,我是一個性情中人,加上我的背景,我對中國來的客人,不管是中國來的,臺灣來的,香港來的,其他各個地方來的,我覺得我有一種義務,我有一種責任要幫到他們。原因是我懂他們的文化,因爲我是這個文化的一部分。第二的話,我知道他們的各種各樣的confusion,他們的困難,他們的喜怒哀樂,我是知道的,他們的親屬不會知道。因爲你上法庭的時候我在旁邊,我幫他一起在準備,他所有的東西都會跟你說。很多人自己不一定意識到他的感情有多麽的豐富,我是跟著一起走的。所以每個案子批的話我是從內心覺得非常開心的。律師提供服務要收費用,在那一點上費用對我來說不是很重要的,我會跟著走。假如案件輸掉的話,我也是爲他很擔心,原因是我知道贏和輸對客人的影響有多大,對他的家人影響多大。比如說,有一個案子,我幫一個中國廣東汕頭籍的一個女子,當時是五十來歲,她偷渡入美國,在Newark Airport抓住以後,關在新澤西的Elizabeth Detention Center。我初出去幫她做擔保,通常居留所是不放的。這個女士的經歷很悲慘。她受到一胎化的迫害,原因是她有個男朋友,男朋友的太太是村裏面計劃生育委員會的一個主任,她跟她的先生有感情了,懷孕了。那麽,他們就通過很多的壓力,說一定要她去流産,不流産的話對她會有很嚴重的事情發生,因爲她沒有結婚嘛。這樣的話,她就跑掉了。一跑跑了八、九年,到了中國廣東省另外一個地方,<br>
生了孩子以後一個人把他養大,經歷了非常多的辛苦。但是她沒有文件來證明。沒有文件證明的話理論上講,你只要口頭上提供的證詞是一致的,是可行的;法官採納你了,也是可以給你機會的。但是通常這樣是比較困難的。那個案子我打了十個月就把它打好了。後來我是有一點很感動,法官一開始的時候對這個案子不是很相信,不是覺得會批你的。最後批了,他說是這樣的,移民局你要上訴的話,我就讓你上訴不會成功,因爲這會變成一個新的案例。以前這樣的案子,沒有任何的文件,然後因爲這樣的女朋友,因爲懷孕,沒有這樣判例的,我要他們立一個新的判例出來。最後他答應了,我就是很感動。我給她說,這個我都沒想到會到這個地步。儘管我是努力了,我也不一定想到會到這個地步。最後政府上訴了,上訴還是輸了。所以,這個案例就在那兒定下來了,就變成一個新的案例。法官說是變成一個新的案例。所以,這個女士現在在美國。類似這樣的案子把我的精力,把我的感情、很多東西都是全部投進去了。對我本身的波動也是很大,從這個角度講,我看到了很多合法非法的移民的內心世界的很多東西。這是一個非常---,作爲我律師來講,我做這個領域是很多其他不做這方面的律師可能經歷不到的。</p>
<p>問:你怎麽看這個非法移民呢?好像很多美國人覺得這是一個問題,一個壞處。那作爲一個中國人,而且你處理過那麽多的案件,你怎麽看這個問題呢?</p>
<p>張:我覺得,作爲一個律師來講,作爲一個美國公民來講,美國的法律都要尊重的,我要尊重,來的人都要尊重,不應該偷渡來,應該循合法的途徑過來。但反過來,因爲我是律師,我又要非常專業地幫我的客人爭取他們的權益。<br>
儘管你非法來了,你違反法律來了,你還是有很多的權益,這就是美國這個國家好的地方。所以,我就是根據這個方面,我要提供我最好的幫助。那麽從這個角度,兩點的基礎上來講,我覺得其他國家的非法移民到這裏來,我對他們瞭解不多,因爲我的客戶主要是中國人。我覺得第一,美國是一個移民的國家。新的移民過來對美國國家是好的,是促進的。沒有移民的話就沒有美國國家這個歷史。美國至今能這麽發達就是各個國家的移民,不管你是非法的還是偷渡過來的,來了以後的風險所造成的。那麽中國的非法移民,我覺得,對美國這個國家是有促進的。我不主張他們違反法律,我不喜歡他們偷渡進來,避開這樣很多的---,非法地操作到了美國。我談的是他們進來以後,這個之前不是我們能夠評論的領域,我應該照法律去做。但這之後的話,我覺得,他們來了以後,作爲我們中國人,不管是臺灣來的,中國大陸來的,香港來的,包括中國人從其他地方來的,都是很勤奮,中國人一個是很勤奮做工。第二的話,給社會帶來的問題相對比較少。你可以從對子女的教育,對大家工作的情況可以看得出來,都是很重視子女的教育,做工都是很勤力。也有很多人做了不少壞的事情,但畢竟是很少數的。舉一個例子吧,福州人在這邊也就十幾年的歷史。你看福州人提供這麽多的外賣餐館和Buffet的餐館,不光在紐約,全美各地的,你很少能找到哪個地方沒有中國外賣餐館和Buffet餐館的。對美國的幫助有多大。不光把文化帶過來,也帶給他們方便,帶給他們服務。這個service不是其他所有人能做到的。我只是舉這個例子而已。<br>
它generate很多經濟利益出來後,他會給他的子女去讀書,他會要人去就業。那麽做工的人又可以幫到自己的家人,然後又可以幫到政府的稅收。多麽好的一個事情。我覺得非法移民,特別是中國的非法移民,對美國這個國家絕對是有促進的,沒有任何對美國不好的地方。</p>
<p>問:你可以回想一下9/11發生那一天你在做什麽?</p>
<p>張:9/11發生的時候對每個人來說都是一個很不同的一個時刻。那天我不在美國,我在中國,我在上海,我在我媽媽家裏面。我回程飛機票訂的是9月12日回美國。當時我在我媽媽家和我同學一起吃飯,吃飯的時候在看電視,電視裏面突然---,我弟弟他們說,怎麽有兩架飛機好像撞世界貿易大廈,兩個姐妹大廈。我們都沒注意,我也沒注意,覺得這可能在放電影。突然一看,不對,我說這個電影怎麽是鳳凰電視臺。鳳凰台是香港過去的,跟中國大陸的中央電視臺和上海電視臺不一樣。我覺得鳳凰電視臺的新聞台不會放電影吧。所以就過去看,一看的話一下就緊張起來了,又看到第二架飛機撞了。那個時候我第一件事情就是拿起電話,打電話找我太太。因爲她辦公的地方是在Broadway和Vesey Street,和姊妹大廈差一個block。因爲姊妹大廈在Church Street,過了就是Broadway。Vesey正好是姊妹大廈開始的地方。我太太在那個大樓裏面,她是當時在幫一家銀行做工作。我打電話找她,我說,怎麽回事?她說,很緊張。我聽到他們背景裏都在叫。我說我打電話到我的辦公室,我已經打不通,能不能你趕緊打個電話,叫他們趕快回去。辦公室裏有人的話叫他們趕緊走。第一,先回去。第二的話,我打電話就是make sure。我問她說,你打到沒有?她說,打到了,已經趕緊回去了。<br>
等人走了我就放心了,不要有人在這個地方,因爲離那個地方很近。第二我說,你趕緊走啊。她說,現在不能走,很亂。我在電話上hold了四十分鐘。那個時候的心情,可能我跟他們回來以後說,要比在紐約辦公室或者在這兒的人更緊張,因爲人不在美國又很著急,那樣的心情是非常非常之著急。然後我又打電話找我的女兒,找不到,因爲她在Bronx Science High School讀書。那麽後來一直一天找不到。我太太最後說找到她,到同學家裏去住了。因爲辦公室裏的人都走了。我就放心了。然後我太太在裏面跟我叫了一句,她說,Oh,My God!It’s gone. It’s gone. 我說,什麽is gone?她說,兩幢大樓沒有了。我說,我在電視裏面還看到啊,在冒煙。她說,It’s gone. It’s collapsed. 所以,那時候的心情是緊張得不得了。從那開始,我一直電話不斷地在追。我覺得當時那個心情,因爲跟親身在這個9/11姊妹大廈周圍,包括我這個辦公室附近的不一樣。但是也是另外一種非常焦急的心情,因爲我人在上海,我的心完全more than 100%在這個地方,在擔心我的辦公室的員工的安全,擔心我太太,擔心我女兒的情況。所以一直在聯繫,跟航空公司說什麽時候能回去。那麽一直不能回來,一直到了17號,第一班飛機可以從中國飛過來了,就飛到了舊金山。舊金山出來的時候,我看到national guard就是全副武裝的,要比我們乘客還要多。所以一下回到辦公室,回到辦公室整個社區都變了。從Broadway,Canal Street開始,都是有national guard。全部封起來了,不能進入。除了工作人員可以進來,其他人都不能進來。好像一個打仗的戰區一樣,好像是在看電影一樣。整個環境都變了,完全一個---,好像是第二次世界大戰電影裏看到的那種景象。回到辦公室的話,一股硝煙彌漫的怪味道。馬路上沒有人了,<br>
整個Broadway我從來沒有看到好像是一個空的廣場,沒有汽車能進來,全部是national guard國民兵在那兒駐防。你進來要看你的ID,不然的話不可以回到辦公室。所以回來以後開始大概是一個星期還是兩個星期不能上班。這個地方沒有開門,整個資料檔案全部斷掉了。回來之後的半年一直經歷了很大很大的變化。整個Chinatown不同了,整個Broadway不同了,整個New York City不同了。</p>
<p>[第二盤磁帶]</p>
<p>問:張律師,請你繼續講9/11發生的事情。</p>
<p>張:9/11發生了以後,我從上海回來了以後,第一的事情就是到辦公室。但是不能給我進來,因爲整個國民兵把Canal街開始全部都封起來了。這樣一封的話,你進來要查你的identification。開始的一兩個星期都不能給你進來。等他們開放以後我就進來,進來我看到整個形象都不同了。當時不知怎麽說,也不知道前景會是怎麽樣。因爲整個Chinatown走路很舒服,因爲你走路的話沒有交通。很多的飯店都關門,很多的生意都關門。覺得就是整個我們的客人不能來了,生意也沒有了。不光我們沒有生意,整個唐人街等於是一個ghost town,很多飯店也關門。你去吃午飯的話,可能有的飯店就是一桌、兩桌。很久的時間整個商業的環境都變了。我們的律師事務所的環境也變了。從那個時候開始,移民的生意一落千丈,整個都變化了。慢慢慢慢以後可能會起來,所以我們經歷了很艱難的一個調整的時期。這就是爲什麽我們更注意把法律服務提供給這些客人。可以有一點filing,移民的跟進上面。儘量提供各種各樣---,他們所不清楚的方面我們給他們提供。<br>
所以9/11的時候,那個moment大概這輩子不會忘記,我是作爲一個人不在美國,但是我的家人,我的辦公室離9/11兩幢大樓那麽近,我想那個經歷也是非常unique,一輩子不會忘記的。我的shock和我感受到的那種無能爲力的這種感覺,我想大概不下於在這個領域裏面親身看到這個大樓倒下來的那些人的經歷,只是從不同的角度而已。</p>
<p>問:你是從文革過來的,你在文革時候有受過一些磨難嗎?你覺得那些磨難跟9/11比,給你的impact有什麽不一樣嗎?</p>
<p>張:文革的時候我非常小,所以我沒有太多的可以講。但是我們的家庭是受到了很大的衝擊。我的爸爸被抓過去很多次,他的身體因爲文化大革命給一下子搞壞,因爲他當時是一個稅務局的官員。文化大革命之前的十個月,他被派到一個新的區去整理那兒的稅務的情況,然後就是文化大革命了。上海市市長派過去了,所以把他鬥得差一點生命沒有了,差一點送到黑龍江。當時這一段的經歷我非常小,我只是十一、二歲。但是,我覺得從那個經歷我一下長大成人了。從家裏的衝擊,因爲你想,你不知道什麽時候,半夜裏突然有人來敲門,敲得那麽響。以前非常平靜的生活一下會覺得非常的不一樣。敲門以後你不知道他是來抓你的父親,還是來抄你的家,還是怎麽樣。那個擔心受怕的感覺,從另外一種程度來講,是在我這生當中,是一個比較難忘的一個經歷。我也可能從這個當中就成熟起來了。但是文化大革命對我本身沒有很大的傷害或者是怎麽樣。我是經歷這個當中,我覺得是經歷文化大革命是一種非常不同的經歷。這個經歷對我今後的成長,給了我很多的內在的東西。可以對什麽問題的考慮都是有一個不同的想法,<br>
或者說人比較更sophisticated,比較複雜一點,或者比較成熟一點。</p>
<p>問:9/11發生以後,這個恐怖襲擊,您對美國這個國家的印象會不會有改變呢,因爲這個事情?</p>
<p>張:我對美國國家的印象有改變,這個改變從兩個方面來看。第一,9/11事件發生了以後,我突然發現美國人的愛國程度要比以前我所發現的要深層得多,廣泛得多,而且是普遍得多。美國人的愛國,某種程度上來講,我的感覺,根據我以前在中國的經驗來講,要超過中國人在中國的愛國的情緒,這麽普遍。非常之愛國,非常之團結。不管你是什麽政黨的,不管你是什麽社會集團的,不管你是什麽community的,我覺得大家像一個人一樣。我也覺得我更成爲這個國家的一部分了。大家非常地愛國,非常地團結。這個國家的認同的概念突然要比以前多很多。假如沒有9/11的話,可能我要花一輩子的時間對美國人的認同都不會像現在認同的這麽好。第二個改變,我就覺得它的政策趨向於保守。趨向於保守的話,好的一部分就是貢獻給了愛國的這一點,就是大家的愛國情緒是趨向保守的一部分,或者是趨向保守是愛國情緒的一部分。但是我覺得某種程度上來講,它的政策的改變,是有一點關門是關得太多一點。跟美國立國的精神開始有一點差別。這個對於我來說也是另外一點很深刻的印象。因爲我對美國國家的瞭解和對美國的喜歡是基於我以前學習的很多的東西,和基於我經歷9/11之前的十幾年在美國的經歷所積累起來的。這個還是沒有改變。我覺得這個國家好,是一個移民的國家。這個國家好是非常地民主。這個國家好是因爲有一個完整的法律,是可以保護各種各樣的人,有自由發表言論,自由做任何事情的權利,只要你不違反法律。這樣一個制度在世界其他地方,至少我待過的地方,在中國中國的法律沒有美國這麽健全,自由化的程度沒有美國這麽廣泛。<br>
香港我待過的時候,當時英國還沒有把香港回歸給中國,也是一個很不同的一個地方。是中國人管理中國人,非常好的一個地方。我的感覺就是,新加坡,香港都是管理非常好的地方;但它自由的程度自然不能和美國比。所以,這是我對美國非常喜歡的一點。但是因爲9/11變化以後,除了我對美國這個國家認同更增加了以後,同時我就感到有一點擔心。我以前認識的這個價值,裏面的一部分給拿走了。我覺得就是美國政治的改變的一部分讓我感覺我又回到了中國,回到了中國的文化大革命。儘管是沒有這麽廣泛,沒有這麽深入,但是很多時間會remind me我小時候的經歷,在中國的經歷,政府的干預,各方面的情況。實際上,某種程度上來講,要比中國政府對老百姓的干預更全面、更強大。這是我比較擔心的地方。</p>
<p>問:你在不同的地方住過,在大陸,跟香港,跟美國,那哪一個地方你覺得是你的家,而且你覺得你是那個國家的人?</p>
<p>張:紐約。這是肯定的。這個感覺七、八年前還沒有這麽強烈。七、八年開始慢慢慢慢越來越強烈。什麽原因呢?因爲是我每次回家我都感覺我是作客,因爲我的社區沒有了。因爲中國發展很快,上海我長大的地方,我爸爸媽媽搬的地方,慢慢都是拆遷拆遷,環境非常好了。但他們的環境對我來說是完全陌生的。我的同學沒有了,我的朋友沒有了,我的community沒有了。那一段的發展我沒有跟上。那我回去的話我覺得我就是作客,沒有做其他事情,完全是作客的感覺。我每次去的時候很想去,去了以後就很想快點回來。回到紐約的話,我就覺得我的家在這裏。紐約是我的家,不是美國的其他地方。香港呢,我也是很喜歡,北京我也很喜歡,<br>
這是另外兩個城市我待得比較久的,再包括緬因吧,緬因的Portland。但是這幾個地方都沒有給我一個家的感覺。家第一是紐約,第二是上海,上海已經是我的一個作客的地方。這是完完全全的感覺。</p>
<p>問:你可以講一下你的家庭嗎?你有幾個小孩?你對他們的未來有什麽期望嗎?</p>
<p>張:我有一個小孩。她是1997年四月份到美國來的,她在這兒成長得非常不錯。這也是我對美國這個制度非常喜歡的一個部分。我覺得美國的制度好。她來的時候不講英文,我們給了她很多的時間。這也就是我爲什麽要開自己的律師事務所,我可以花時間在她身上。我覺得工作某種程度上不如教育小孩那麽重要。假如我是業務很成功了,小孩的教育很不好了,或者她出了什麽事情的話,我覺得我會很失敗的。所以,她非常成功,到目前爲止。97年四月份來的時候,英文一點也不講,直接進入美國的一個neighborhood初中。半年以後參加考試就考到Bronx Science High School。那麽再過半年畢業以後就去讀了。讀了以後她在那兒的成績非常好。我們鼓勵她參加她學校的辯論隊,她在辯論隊是A Team。大概她申請大學的時候有六個大學錄取她,Chicago University, Economics Department,然後有那個Brown University,Columbia University,Cornel University,Dartmouth College,然後MIT。最後她選擇了MIT。現在在那兒已經是兩年級的學生。她選擇了那兒的交換學生的計劃,所以今年十月份她要到Cambridge,去過一年交換學生的生活。過兩年她就要畢業了。她也是,她很喜歡美國。上海慢慢慢慢也變成她一個作客的地方了。前幾天我和她討論,我說,你今年夏天要到臺灣去,要到香港,因爲她想瞭解臺灣的社會,所以準備去三個月,在香港會停一下。我說,<br>
你要不要到上海去看一下爺爺奶奶?年齡比較大了。她說,不想去。我說,你爲什麽不想去呢?她說,I have no freedom. 我在那兒沒有自由。他們把我當小孩,完全要跟著他們,都喜歡我。她去的感覺就是跟我以前的感覺一樣。慢慢慢慢紐約就是她的家了。她讀大學以後,和讀高中的時候,我本來要搬家搬到Queens,搬到其他地方。她不同意。她說,我來美國的時候就住在78街York Avenue這裏。這是我的community。你搬的話,我不和你一起住。所以到現在爲止我還沒搬就是這個原因。你可以看出,我覺得美國這個國家對新來的人非常好。我一直跟她講,我說,你對這個社會要感謝。不能光是拿取,就和我一樣,我能對社區做多少,我現在都會做的。包括對我的業務當中,我做很多pro bono的,客人我不是完全看錢的,我幫他們的。我說,你也是。你是一胎化,計劃生育的産物,小皇帝,比較自私。到美國的話,你不能說光從美國這兒拿,你不付出。這個是你一輩子的失敗。所以,她初中的時候,她就出去做那種no-for-profit。有一年夏天她到香港做Human Rights,全世界Human Rights society,她是幫他們落實的團體,然後到醫院裏面去做。我都鼓勵她去,她不去我都逼著她去。所以,你一定要反饋給社會。不是說,因爲光是你聰明你就可以這樣,這個社會給了你很多。你要看到它好的地方,不要吸收不好的地方,而且把你很多東西反回去。所以,so far我們覺得我們的家在這邊,但是又不能全部把我們在中國的聯繫,自然的聯繫給卡斷,那也卡不斷。</p>
<p>問:你希望她以後做什麽?</p>
<p>張:我希望她以後她喜歡做什麽就做什麽,不要走到歪路上面去。美國這個國家的好處是你怎麽想的話,你的dream你可以去實現。我覺得她很小的時候她也有一個dream。<br>
我們這個年齡跟她來講肯定是有區別的。我們怎麽再想的話,不能想得和她一樣,因爲我們年齡,是另外一個generation。所以希望不要對她干擾太多,但是也要給她適當的指導。她走什麽路,喜歡的話,我都沒有問題,我都會支援她。</p>
<p>問:你現在多少歲?</p>
<p>張:我是1955年生的,1955年6月26日,我現在49歲。</p>
<p>問:很年輕。</p>
<p>張:我覺得是這樣,這個年齡是個very exciting age。我儘量在我退休之前能多做一點事情,爲社區,爲其他人,我都會做。</p>
<p>問:你來美國這麽久,你對紐約的華人社區有什麽感覺呢?你覺得有什麽需要改善的地方嗎?</p>
<p>張:華人社區在我來美國以後發展非常之快。我非常開心地看到,今天的華人社區和我來美國時那個時候的華人社區不一樣。我當時來的話覺得廣東話的團體力量非常之大。但是現在你可以很簡單地看到,除了廣東話之外,國語已經是一個可能比廣東話更大的團體,除了是福建人、福州人的移民之外,從中國大陸各地來的移民都是很多,上海的,北京的。我們法拉盛的辦公室接觸更多的是講國語的,除了臺灣講國語的以外,中國大陸各地來的講國語的人。現在整個華人的力量強了。人數絕對是增加得很厲害。但是有一點還是這樣,就是在大面積參政的同時不是很團結。假如我們華人能更團結一點,不管你是從中國來的,香港來的,臺灣來的,廣東來的,福建來的,上海來的,溫州來的,大家能團結起來,把我們社區裏面的人送到City Council,<br>
送到紐約州的參議院、衆議院的競選,送到學區委員的競選,送到各個地方去,把聲音講出來的話。一個,對我們華人社會的發展會非常好。唐人街是一個比較獨特的團體。我覺得應該,唐人街這個團體應該和不同背景的中國人的團體,把它結合起來,因爲你從臺灣、中國大陸、香港、其他地方來的很多人,像我們的背景,出來之前的背景都已經很不錯了。應該把這部分人完全地融入到唐人街去,把唐人街的傳統的,靠傳統移民來推動,打破局面,會有一個非常好的發展。我現在已經看到,中華公所、華人聯合會,各種各樣的已經在慢慢慢慢在合作了,已經在朝好的方向發展,但是還不夠快。我覺得應該更快地把這個團體給推上去,因爲在紐約的唐人街是美國文化的一部分。它不是中國文化的一部分。紐約的唐人街是紐約市的非常重要的一部分。假如沒有紐約的唐人街,整個紐約的變化可能要比姊妹大廈沒有的變化會更大,整個紐約會不一樣。所以,這是我們華人在紐約的一個非常驕傲的地方,但是發展還是不夠。應該更團結,把各種背景的人都團結起來,放到一個團體裏面,互相不要吵,能做多少,大家就做多少,這樣的話會力量很大。在美國這樣的國家,有好的地方它會注意你的。你只要聲音發出來它會注意你的,但是現在我們的聲音太分散,但進步已經很大。</p>
<p>問:你對你以後的人生有什麽規劃呢?</p>
<p>張:以後人生的規劃是這樣,我剛來美國的時候,我的原則是,我儘量避開唐人街,儘量避開Chinatown。所以,我住在77街,我不住在中國人的社區。<br>
我以後的人生變化是,兩點肯定是越來越明顯。第一,我會盡我的能力,在發展我的律師事務的本身,爲社區做更多的服務。我能做的我都會做。第二,我會盡我的能力,把我以前在中國學到的背景和知識,和把我在美國學到的背景和知識一起會用出來,爲中國和美國的更多的交流做出貢獻。這個方面我能做更多。這兩個方面我都能做更多。這兩個方面我已經都開始做了。我想這兩個方面是我能在退休之前,或者退休之後,能做出的很多事情。爲社區做事,爲中國和美國之間的交流做事,憑我對雙方的瞭解。這是我要做的。</p>
<p>問:你預見的中國的未來是怎麽樣的?跟美國的這個互動?</p>
<p>張:中國的未來,中美關係的互動,我是這樣感覺的,總的會好的。但當中會有很大的問題不斷,原因是臺灣問題。這個不是我們關心的。我們作爲中國人來講,不管從臺灣來的,中國的什麽地方來的,我都沒有任何的這個上面的想法。我女兒要到臺灣去,我很鼓勵她的。我都想到臺灣去,但是我沒有時間。我覺得中國和美國的關係會好的理由是,除了臺灣問題,已經不是主要問題了。中國和美國沒有衝突的。除了我當時到美國來之前的一個中國人的話,我從我的周圍圈子裏面,我的朋友裏面,沒有人不喜歡美國的。當時我們都覺得,我是搞學術的。假如要是不喜歡的話,可能我們更不喜歡日本和蘇聯,或者現在的俄國。對美國沒有什麽問題的,所以我覺得這雙方面的交流會越來越多,越來越好。問題會不斷,但是經濟交流和其他的話,中國和美國會變成世界上最好的夥伴,甚至會代替美國和日本這樣的友好夥伴的關係。我覺得臺灣問題解決以後,應該是往這個方向走的。</p>
<p> 問:你有什麽建議要給政府當局或者是華人社區,覺得它可以把這個社區,一些9/11以後的問題可以處理得更好?</p>
<p>張:社區來講,9/11以後的問題可以處理得更好。不管什麽團體,現在要抛棄偏見,大家儘量要溝通。現在不管是哪個團體,你以前的歷史怎麽樣。中國的團體有個習慣,就是大家小圈子比較多。我覺得應該把那個圈子,不管是廣東人的,不管你中國大陸來的,臺灣來的,不管你什麽地方來的,儘量打破這個圈子,把聲音發出去。不要一個團體聲音發出來了,另外一個團體發另外的聲音。在兩個團體有不同聲音的時候,應該溝通,溝通以後雙方都應該謙讓。一個聲音發出去,這樣會對我們比較好。我在退休之前之後我都會儘量做這方面的事的。我給星島日報寫了很多文章,我並沒有廣東的背景。對於香港,我只是有在那裏工作幾年的背景,也並不是因爲我是老華僑,我是臺山人,完全是撇開那一點來講的。我希望各種各樣的人都往這個方向走,能做貢獻,多做貢獻。抛開很多的偏見,還是很有希望的。假如像我們這樣背景的人能鼓勵其他人,包括我們自己,參與到社區裏面去的話,我想一定會有很多比較積極的聲音發出來。重要的是,具體的事情要做出來。中美關係也是這樣,我也會把我的知識各方面貢獻出來,兩方面都會的。</p>
<p>問:謝謝你今天的時間。</p>
<p>張:謝謝。</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Zhong Yue Zhang
911DA Item
Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item.
Status
The process status of this item.
approved
Consent
Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item.
unknown
Posting
Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item.
unknown
Copyright
Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item.
unknown
Source
The source of this item.
transcription
Media Type
The media type of this item.
interview
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Agnes Wong
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-05-21
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
garment worker
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
Today is May 21<sup>st</sup>, and I am sitting with Agnes Wong at
#193 Centre Street. Ms. Wong has 30 years of experience working in
the garment industry in Chinatown. Let’s start our
conversation with Ms. Wong’s background. Where are you from,
Ms. Wong?</p>
<p>WONG:
I immigrated to America from Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Q:
Were you born in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>WONG:
I was born in mainland China. When I was about 3 or 4 years old, we
came to Hong Kong because my parents were fleeing the Communist
Party.</p>
<p>Q:
Where in mainland China was that?</p>
<p>WONG:
I was born in Guangdong’s Boluo, in mainland China.</p>
<p>Q:
So you moved to Hong Kong when you were very young.</p>
<p>WONG:
We came to Hong Kong when I was about 3 or 4 because mainland China
was going through chaotic political changes, and it was being ruled
by the Communist Party. So we came to Hong Kong. I grew up in Hong
Kong, studied in Hong Kong, and lots of my relatives had already
moved to Hong Kong to live.</p>
<p>Q:
What did your parents do in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>WONG:
My father helped manage a church. He worked at the church, and my
mother was a housewife.</p>
<p>
Q: So why did they
decide to immigrate to America?</p>
<p>WONG:
My parents didn’t immigrate to America. After I finished my
education in Hong Kong, I worked for a few years, and by luck I met
my husband. Originally, he had known my uncle, and had come to Hong
Kong to seek him out. We were lucky in that everyone met each other.
I became friends with him. Later, my aunt strongly encouraged us to
start dating, and we finally fell in love and got married. Because
he came from New York, in America, and had a job, after we got
married and had some children, we immigrated to New York.</p>
<p>Q:
So your husband had been in New York for a long time?</p>
<p>WONG:
He worked in New York with my uncle.</p>
<p>Q:
Around what time did they arrive [in New York]?</p>
<p>WONG:
They came in the 60s, very early. On the other hand, my children and
I came over in 1973, no, it was Easter of 1974 that we came.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you work in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>WONG:
Yes, I did. I did some different jobs. In the beginning, I was a
secretary for a weaving factory, as a counter. Those yarn factories
produced lots of yarn every day, and I calculated the workers’
wages, and kept track of how much product they produced each day.
Later, the number of factories in Hong Kong increased a bit. The
Japanese started establishing factories in Hong Kong, and some
electronics factories were created. At that time, one of my
classmate’s brothers acted as a trainee in a Japanese
electronics factory because he was a good student, and later he
advanced up to the position of engineer. I worked for several years
at his factory. This brother of my classmate was extremely advanced
in electronics, and later on he did a joint venture with the
Japanese, opening a
factory in China. He did a great
business there, and was able to financially establish that business.</p>
<p>Q:
So you came to New York on Easter of 1974. At that time, how old
were you?</p>
<p>WONG:
27 or 28 years old.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you understand English?</p>
<p>WONG:
You could say I understood English. I had finished high school and
had studied at an English-language academy, a women’s academy.</p>
<p>Q:
So as soon as you came to America, you went straight to New York?</p>
<p>WONG:
That’s right.</p>
<p>Q:
What were your thoughts of New York before coming to America?</p>
<p>WONG:
I originally didn’t have any opinions about America, just that
I would be changing my surroundings. As soon as I came to New York,
I saw that it was a huge city, and that it was prosperous, just like
Hong Kong, and that I could study things here, start a new life, a
new environment, learn new things, like that.</p>
<p>Q:
So your husband was always in New York. Did you ever think of moving
to another city, like in California or some other state?</p>
<p>WONG:
I never thought about that.</p>
<p>Q:
When you first arrived, where did you live?</p>
<p>
WONG: When I first
arrived, I lived for about a year at #125 Henry Street in Chinatown.
I thought the place was pretty small. Later we bought a place to
live in Brooklyn.</p>
<p>Q:
What were your impressions of Chinatown when you first arrived?</p>
<p>WONG:
At that time, I thought that Chinatown was far behind, it wasn’t
as advanced as I had imagined, there weren’t as many people and
it wasn’t as flourishing. There was work, but it still wasn’t
my ideal location. Hee hee!</p>
<p>Q:
So it wasn’t what you had imagined.</p>
<p>WONG:
It wasn’t the kind of place I had been hoping to find.</p>
<p>Q:
What had you imagined America to be like before you came?</p>
<p>WONG:
When I was in junior high school, we had an English teacher from
Britain. He was also an assemblyman in Hong Kong, and he said: “When
you grow up, if you have a chance to go to any cities in America,
then go see the Hudson River while you are in New York, and the
skyscrapers. You are young enough that, if you have that kind of
chance, it would be great to develop in that environment.”
Maybe it was what he said, because I thought that if I had the
chance, it would be great to develop myself over there. So I had
envisioned America as being very advanced, very prosperous, with lots
of job opportunities, and that it was a pretty good place. But after
I came, I only saw Chinatown, and I realized that it wasn’t the
New York I had imagined.</p>
<p>Q:
So you didn’t have any chance to see other cities?</p>
<p>WONG:
No. Of course, later on I changed my views, and I saw that New York
was a very prosperous and advanced place, that it was an economic and
fashion capital, that the population and opportunities to travel were
all very good, and at that time prices were
very cheap and
the work opportunities were good, the hours were really good,
everything was great. It was just a little bit foreign to me.</p>
<p>At
that time I had thought about doing some job for [non-Chinese]
Americans, but they didn’t want to accept my diploma. They
insisted on a college diploma. Or else they asked if I was a
citizen, and how long I had been in America. I went to a number of
American jobs and didn’t succeed. But it wasn’t an
option to sit around and not work.</p>
<p>I
thought about going to study, to increase my knowledge. At that
time, Chinatown only had two organizations where you could study. I
asked around at both places, but neither seemed to match my level.
It was all very basic English, and it didn’t match my level,
considering that I had completed Form 4 in Hong Kong. So I didn’t
pursue studying at any other school.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you start work in the factory?</p>
<p>WONG:
A relative of mine on East Broadway opened a garment factory. It’s
a little past today’s 888 Restaurant, and he had started the
garment factory on the second floor. He said: “If you have
free time, how about coming to work at my garment factory?” I
said, “But I don’t know sewing, and I have never sewed
before in my life!” He said, “You’re this smart,
you’ll learn quickly.” I said, “How can I count on
sewing to make a living when I don’t even know how to hold a
needle! How can I sew?” He said, “You’re fine,
you’re fine, you’ll learn quickly.” Later on, I
tried it. At that time the working hours were very good. We started
at nine and left at six, and if we worked on Saturdays, we earned
overtime pay, there were long vacation times, and there was special
holiday money on top of it. At the time the standard of living was
very low.</p>
<p>Q:
But your husband also worked?</p>
<p>WONG:
Yes, he was a cook in a restaurant. He was the head chef, and his
income was really good. So we were only in Chinatown one year, and
then we bought a place in
Brooklyn. And at the garment
factory, I learned very quickly to make pants, and immediately joined
a union. While I was working at the factory, an agent came to the
factory and said, “If you work in this profession, you have to
join the union.” I said, “OK.”</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you want to join the union?</p>
<p>WONG:
Because the agent told me, if you’re living in America doing
this kind of work, you have to join the union. Once you join the
union, the union will protect the workers’ benefits. So all my
fellow workers joined, and there was nobody who didn’t join.
Just as long as you were a worker or colleague, then you could join,
and if you manufactured clothes you joined the union for clothing
manufacturers. So I joined the 105 union for clothing workers.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you always do sewing?</p>
<p>WONG:
I never understood how to cut it, because when the clothing material
came, it was already cut into pieces, and Westerners [i.e.
non-Chinese] sent it over, and we just did work on that.</p>
<p>Q:
Was your boss a Chinese person?</p>
<p>WONG:
All of my bosses were Chinese.</p>
<p>Q:
So how did you feel about the environment, working in a garment
factory?</p>
<p>WONG:
Back then, the conditions in the garment factories were passable, but
they didn’t provide air conditioning, they had fans. The boss
treated the workers well, very friendly. The boss appreciated your
feelings. Of course they were good to me, and they were also very
good to the average worker. Even outside of the relationship between
the employer and the employees, there was a special kind of good
feeling. It was great.</p>
<p>Q:
So did pretty much all the people working with you join the union?</p>
<p>WONG:
100% joined the union. There was nobody who didn’t join the
union. Everyone joined it.</p>
<p>Q:
Did the boss like you joining the union?</p>
<p>WONG:
He supported it. It was the boss who told the workers to join the
union, not the workers who said they wanted to join the union. The
boss called for the workers to join the union, saying, “You
should join the union. Having a union is good. The union will give
you Blue Cross, you’ll get pay if you take days off, and
there’s lots of things that are good for you.”</p>
<p>Q:
So the boss encouraged you to join?</p>
<p>WONG:
Yes, the boss encouraged us to join.</p>
<p>Q:
Speaking from the boss’ perspective, did he have to pay you
more money after you joined the union?</p>
<p>WONG:
Oh, at that time the money for worker’s benefits and protection
was partially paid by the employee and partly paid by our boss. But
at that time the boss was doing very well, and so the boss was
willing to share some of the money with us. He wasn’t stingy,
he was happy about it. We produced lots of clothing every day, so he
felt he ought to give the workers a share.</p>
<p>Q:
How much did you make every week?</p>
<p>WONG:
At that time, we worked 36 hours a week, five days a week. We
usually didn’t work on Saturdays. At most we’d work 40
hours, because we did piece work, rather than
being paid by
the hour. If you work by the hour, then in one week you could make
300 to 350 dollars, depending on how much work the boss gives you,
all according to the hours worked.
But we didn’t
have a minimum salary, we didn’t have minimum pay, we got paid
according to how much we did.</p>
<p>Q:
In your case, were you a fast or slow worker?</p>
<p>WONG:
I did piece work, and at that time I was still young, and my hands
and feet were fast, so every week I made between 200 and 250 dollars.
I was asked by Mr. Wang, a friend of mine who worked in a bank,
“Would you like to get a job? You can come work at my bank.”
I asked, “How much salary will the bank pay me each week?”
He said, “When you first start out, you can make between 150
and 160 dollars a week. I thought, “That’s all? Working
in the garment factory is better.”</p>
<p>Q:
Was it very difficult working as a seamstress? Your hands, your
feet, and sitting while doing all those movements?</p>
<p>WONG:
At first I really wasn’t used to it, and so it felt very
unpleasant, but because every Friday, after I got my pay, I could buy
so much with just fifty dollars, that made me very happy and I didn’t
even think it was hard. While I was working I could chat very
pleasantly about personal things with my colleagues next to me, and
it didn’t seem so difficult, not like at first, when I felt I
didn’t understand anything, and wondered how I was going to
make it.</p>
<p>Q:
But together with your husband, your income was quite good?</p>
<p>WONG:
We really had a wealthy lifestyle then. Every month I made over a
thousand dollars, and together with my husband, we made about 1400 or
1500 a month. It was really good.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you keep doing it, or did you change careers?</p>
<p>WONG:
I kept at it. In 1979, I switched to work at the union in Lafayette.
That union was different, because at that time a number of the
seamstress unions were separate. The seamstress unions included the
23-25 branch, the 105 branch, and the 199 branch. My old branch was
the 105, and after I changed work, my union switched from 105 to the
23-25 branch. Now it’s UNITE.</p>
<p>Q:
About how many members are in UNITE today?</p>
<p>WONG:
UNITE has about, well, nowadays they have only about 1,000 members in
Chinatown to be accurate. Before, when they were at their peak, they
had about 10,000 members.</p>
<p>Q:
Do most of the new immigrants join the union?</p>
<p>WONG:
New immigrants go half and half. When they start work at a garment
factory, about half join, and about half decide to think about it
first, think about whether or not they should join. Because the
economic situation is very difficult at first, and they feel they
want to save everything they can, they don’t want to pay the
union dues. Or they might just want to think it over more clearly,
understand whether it has a benefit for them, before making a
decision about whether or not to join.</p>
<p>Q:
Can anybody join, or do you need to have legal status before you can
join?</p>
<p>WONG:
Anybody can join, there are no restrictions, and you can join even if
you don’t have legal status, because the union protects not
just the rights of those with status, but also protects the rights of
those without it. A lot of workers nowadays, especially those
without legal status, they don’t understand that you can join
even without status, and so they don’t dare join the union.
They’re afraid of government connections, and they’re
afraid of creating trouble. That’s a big mistake. Actually,
they are also immigrants. To put it another way, just last week, the
members of the union’s political committee met
with
senators and we presented five demands. The first was a New York
Health Plan. The second was a minimum wage, that is, to increase the
minimum wage.</p>
<p>Q:
[Are you referring to the English phrase] “minimum wage”?</p>
<p>WONG:
Yes, the minimum wage. We want it increased from a little over five
dollars to seven dollars per hour. The third demand was the “Empire
Zone.” If business move from wealthier areas to older
communities, then they should gain tax breaks, and this would create
a lot more employment opportunities.</p>
<p>Q:
How much is the monthly union membership fee?</p>
<p>WONG:
The monthly membership dues are $23.20, and the dues for a half year
are $139.20. Each time people pay the union dues, I write down how
much they paid. I pay half a year at a time, but some people prefer
to pay every month.</p>
<p>Q:
You said that people without legal status in this country fear that
if they join the union then the government will come and look for
them?</p>
<p>WONG:
Actually, it’s not like that. Actually, if someone without
status joins the union, then the union will demand on their behalf
that the government pass laws, that they should change the laws,
saying that new immigrants to America are also living and spending
here, and that we wish the government will pass a law that allows
them to gain legal status, to gain a green card or temporary
residency which they can later change to a green card. We are also
constantly meeting with congressmen to discuss these issues. You know
how it is with making laws -- you need many years of demands and
battles before you can “reap the rewards.” Like right
now, the battle for children’s health insurance, it’s
been a matter of going to representatives and senators many times,
calling upon them and repeatedly making requests, before we finally
got a result.</p>
<p>
Q: You said that one of
your demands to Washington is an increase in the minimum wage. Do
you fear that right now -- so many of the garment factories in
Chinatown have already closed because they can’t compete with
the labor in third world countries like China, because it’s so
cheap there – do you think that if you raise the salary of the
American worker, these factories might not be able to continue
existing, and that the opportunities to work will decrease even
further?</p>
<p>WONG:
This is also a problem, because frankly, the workers’ salaries
in China are very low. Most businessmen look for cheap labor, in
order to reduce their costs. In America, labor is expensive, and
it’s impossible to deny that we lose some work opportunities.
But that doesn’t mean that we can’t continue in this line
of work, that they can’t operate any more. The ones that want
to leave have already left. But New York still needs some garment
factories producing here in New York. It seems that some seasonal
clothing needs to be sent to market quickly, and sometimes things
produced abroad aren’t up to standard and can’t be sent
back to China to be fixed. Sending it back and forth costs a lot of
time, so they have it done right away in New York. So the garment
factories still have a future, they can still make it. If you say
that the high wages in New York will impact the garment industry,
well, lots of American cities have wages higher than those in New
York. Why does New York have such a high cost of living, rent, food,
phone, gas, everything all together, and I’ve also heard that
after Labor Day, it’s going to get even more expensive. And
the wages are always low, and don’t match the cost of living,
and if it can’t match the cost of living, people will all move
to other places; if people move to other places, there are no
workers, and there’s no businesses, and without business,
there’s no work, so where will the business opportunities come
from? Where will the businessmen and their businesses come from?
New York is a place where people are clustered together, so it’s
easy to find workers. If people are looking for workers, it’s
easy to find them in New York. And actually, it’s also easy to
find work in New York, especially manual labor or low-level work.
It’s much easier to find that. A lot of organizations and such
don’t even ask you if you have legal status when they’re
looking for workers, and they’re willing to hire you. This is
a great benefit for those who have just arrived in this country.</p>
<p>Q:
When 9/11 took place, you were still working in Chinatown?</p>
<p>WONG:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Then did 9/11 influence your factory?</p>
<p>WONG:
Yes, the impact was huge. The factory simply didn’t have any
clothing materials coming in, because the vehicles weren’t
allowed into New York. They weren’t allowed in. The workers
had already cut the fabric but they couldn’t send in the
clothing material. We stopped work, and only collected unemployment.</p>
<p>Q:
How long did you stop work?</p>
<p>WONG:
For 3 months.</p>
<p>Q:
So at that time, you didn’t have any income at all?</p>
<p>WONG:
We didn’t have any income at all. We just collected
unemployment.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you collect any of the 9/11 economic assistance money?</p>
<p>WONG:
Personally, I didn’t go get any. A lot of my colleagues went
to apply, because after 9/11 there were many months, about 3 or 4
months when there was no work, and later, when the factories opened,
there was still very little work to do. They would typically be open
only one or two days a week. A lot of time they were just sitting
doing nothing, and whenever a small order arrived, they immediately
began production. You couldn’t do anything about it. You just
sat there not doing anything for so long, and so when I saw that
there were things to study, I went and signed up for them, for the
9/11 courses. I studied computers and English.
</p>
<p>
Q: Why didn’t you
go apply for some of the economic assistance?</p>
<p>WONG:
I thought, since I immigrated to this place a lot earlier, I thought
that I could get by. If I could support myself financially, then
don’t worry about it, and just leave this opportunity to
others. Maybe there are some people who have just arrived and don’t
have any economic foundation and need to pay rent, and who have young
children. They should try to get help, and if the factories aren’t
open then they don’t have any income. As far as we go, we
already have our own home, we worked for many years, and we could get
by and survive, so we didn’t feel like going to too much
trouble. So I didn’t seek anything of the economic nature
[i.e. economic assistance]. Later on I saw that a lot of people were
taking courses, and other coworkers said to me, “Why don’t
you go study? You can go study, and it won’t affect anything
else.” So I went and studied the final group of classes, it
turned out to be the last one.</p>
<p>Q:
When was that?</p>
<p>WONG:
In July or August of 2003, I finally went to study, and altogether I
studied about 6 weeks.</p>
<p>Q:
I heard people say that the classes were for 13 weeks.</p>
<p>WONG:
I studied for 6 weeks, then studied again for 6 weeks, and the entire
length of time was 13 weeks.</p>
<p>Q:
What did you choose to study?</p>
<p>WONG:
I choose computers and English.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you study English? I see that your English is already very
fluent, isn’t it?</p>
<p>
WONG: No, my English is
of no use. Lots of times I can’t express what I want to say.
Lots of times I have to think about it first, and I often need to ask
someone good at English to help me, ask them “Is this the right
way to say something? Is that OK?” I finally force myself to
express a little of my thoughts, but my English isn’t that
good.</p>
<p>Q:
Then do you feel that 13 weeks of classes were useful?</p>
<p>WONG:
They were very useful. First I learned some simple computer
functions, and learned a little English. They taught very simple
superficial stuff, so we couldn’t learn a lot.</p>
<p>Q:
Where did you study?</p>
<p>WONG:
I studied at City Hall.</p>
<p>Q:
And which organization arranged it?</p>
<p>WONG:
I’m not really clear on which organization it was. I think
they said it was the 9/11 Fund.</p>
<p>Q:
And did you see information about it in the newspaper?</p>
<p>WONG:
No. One of my coworkers was studying there, and introduced me. I
think they said it was the 9/11…</p>
<p>Q:
What kind of people were most of the teachers?</p>
<p>WONG:
The majority was White, but there were also one or two Chinese. They
were Taiwanese students, studying in the university here.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think they understood your circumstances?</p>
<p>WONG:
They all understood really well. During classes they asked us some
questions, and my colleagues all answered very honestly.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think that those 13 weeks of studying were useful, outside of
getting a little money?</p>
<p>WONG:
Of course it was useful. My fellow workers had spent their whole
lives without ever studying, and they didn’t even know the
alphabet. After studying for 13 weeks, at a minimum they could write
their own names, their address, to say their own address and where
they work, their phone number, and so on.</p>
<p>Q:
You learned very basic English, so it wasn’t useful to your
work…?</p>
<p>WONG:
I think that it was useful to me personally.</p>
<p>Q:
So it wasn’t useful towards your work, but it was useful to you
personally. Have you ever thought of changing careers?</p>
<p>WONG:
Up until now, I have never thought about changing careers.</p>
<p>Q:
Is that because you feel that you are too old and no longer have that
chance, or is it because you like your work now?</p>
<p>WONG:
I still like the sewing work that I do now, and that’s one
reason. The second reason is because I’m older. Going to look
for work when you’ve already reached the age of retirement –
people will want to use someone younger, they won’t consider
using someone who’s about to retire. So I didn’t think
about changing careers.</p>
<p>Q:
And your factory closed for four months, is that right?</p>
<p>
WONG: Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
And later, did it return to normal?</p>
<p>WONG:
Later the factory was continuously open. Recently it’s become
a bit busier.</p>
<p>Q:
And have you always worked at the same company?</p>
<p>WONG:
No. During my time I’ve changed garment factories many times,
and during these decades the change has been huge. I’ve worked
in about four or five factories. I’ve had a good, friendly
relationship with every boss. When some bosses stopped [running the
factories] and took up some other business, they were succeeded in
the management by their children.</p>
<p>Q:
And do you hope that your children will follow you in this career?</p>
<p>WONG:
Of course not. But I have two sons who are working in the restaurant
business, but they’re not doing it in New York, they’re
working in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.</p>
<p>Q:
What do you think is the biggest change in Chinatown?</p>
<p>WONG:
The biggest change is the change in population. Back then, rent in
Chinatown was really cheap. The rent in 1974 was 120 dollars, and
that was for a place with two rooms, a kitchen and a bathroom, even
though the rooms weren’t that big. Back then I rented a place
for 135 dollars, and then after a year the price was raised to 150
dollars. The monthly rent for a place with two rooms or more reached
180 dollars, and nowadays of course, it is many times more than that.
Back then, there weren’t so many people selling vegetables and
groceries on the roadsides. Back then everything was sold inside
stores. There weren’t so many teahouses and restaurants, not
to mention the great extent to which it has expanded, Chinatown has
expanded as far as Delancey. Few people went that far, even Bowery,
some workers selling jewelry there, at night they didn’t want
to go
by, they were afraid to go past there, and some
workers said, “Hey, don’t go there, those non-Chinese
will grab you, there’s people who drive cars to come and grab
you and take you away!” Back then the women really knew
nothing. They told these stories and got so scared!</p>
<p>Q:
You’ve been here for such a long time. Are you satisfied with
your life here?</p>
<p>WONG:
Oh…. I think that I didn’t make the wrong choice. I
think that in America, especially life in New York -- New York is a
place with very convenient transportation. I can have a car, but
also I have the freedom to not have a car, because public
transportation goes everywhere. As far as family life goes,
personally, I have a home, I live very comfortably, because I entered
a career in the sewing union, and at the union I’ve constantly
been learning new things, met a lot of friends, and I’ve
learned a lot from my friends, the school and from my union
organization during the summer. I’ve participated in lots of
different activities, I joined the Chinese Labor Union of Women, the
Asian Pacific Association of Labor Alliance, the worker’s
organization, and I’ve also joined some political activities.
I really like listening to other people talk. I think when I was
younger I wanted to study more but didn’t have the chance.
After coming to New York and entering a career as a seamstress,
joining the union allowed me to take lots of different classes. Even
though I spent quite a bit of money and time, my knowledge of society
has increased a lot. So I am very satisfied, and I feel very happy.</p>
<p>Before
I arrived, I had thought that once I got old I would go back to Hong
Kong and live out my life there. However, my siblings now tell me,
“Hong Kong housing prices are very low now, so go back! In
America, housing prices have become very expensive, so if you sold
your place and went back there to live, you could retire already.”
No way, I answered, I want to return to New York to live. At that
time, when I was on the airplane going on vacation, I heard the song,
“New York, New York, I love New York.” I really liked
it. When I came back here, I felt that this is really my home, and
I’ve already got lots of friends here.</p>
<p>Q:
Thank you very much. You told us so many of your stories and
experiences in Chinatown.</p>
<p>WONG:
Thank you very much, Ms. Lan, you’re too kind to me.</p>
<p>Q:
Thank you very much, Ms. Wong.</p>
<p>WONG:
Thank you.</p>
<p>[end
of session]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:今日是5月21 日,我和王太坐在中央街193號,王太已經在唐人街車衣廠做了30多年的經驗。我們現在就從王太的背景開始說起。王太,你是從那裡來的?</p>
<p>王:我從香港移民來美國。</p>
<p>問:你是在香港出生的?</p>
<p>王:我是在中國大陸出生的,大約3﹑4歲時,我父母因逃避共產黨的關係,來到香港生活。</p>
<p>問:是在大陸的那裡?</p>
<p>王:是在大陸的廣東博羅出生。</p>
<p>問:你很小時候就去了香港?</p>
<p>王:大約是3﹑4歲時左右,來到香港,因為當時大陸變色,由共產黨統治,所以我就到了香港,所以我在香港長大,在香港讀書,很多親戚亦從大陸到香港生活。</p>
<p>問:在香港你父母做什麼?</p>
<p>王:我爸爸在香港一個幫助打理一間教會,在教會做事,我媽媽是一個家庭主婦。</p>
<p> 問:那他們為什麼要想到移民美國來?</p>
<p>王:我爸爸媽媽沒有移民來美國。是我在香港讀完書,做了幾年工作,一個機緣認識到我先生,他本來認識我叔叔,到香港探我叔叔,我們有緣大家相見,我和先生做了朋友,後來我嬸嬸極之贊成我們開始結交,愛情道路最後成功了,結了婚。因為他來自美國紐約,有工作的,結婚後有幾個小孩子後,我們就移民到紐約。</p>
<p>問:你先生一早來了紐約?</p>
<p>王:他和我叔叔在紐約一起做工的。</p>
<p>問:在那一個時代來到的?</p>
<p>王:他們是在1960年代來到的,是很早期來的。我和小孩子則是1973年,不,是1974年復活節來到的。</p>
<p>問:你在香港有沒有做工?</p>
<p>王:我有,做過幾份工,最初時在織造廠做書記,即是計數。那些紗廠每日出產很多紗,又計算工人的工資,又記錄它每日的產量。後來香港的工業廠多一些,日本人開始在香港設廠,有些電子廠。那時我同學一位哥哥在一間很大的日本電子廠當學徒,因為他肯學,後來升到相當於工程師的職位,我在他廠幫助工作了幾年。這位同學的哥哥在電子方面很發達,後來和日本合資在中國開電子廠,<br>
做了很大的生意,將生意企業化。</p>
<p>問:你在1974年復活節來到紐約,當時你幾多歲?</p>
<p>王:27﹑28歲。</p>
<p>問:那你懂英文嗎?</p>
<p>王:我當時算是懂英文,讀完高中,我是唸英文書院的,是「書院女」。</p>
<p>問:一來到美國就到紐約?</p>
<p>王:是的。</p>
<p>問:未來美國前,你對紐約的第一印象是怎樣的?</p>
<p>王:我原來對美國沒有什麼印象,只不過叫做轉換一下環境,一到美國紐約,一見是大都會,和香港一樣都是很繁榮,或者我在這裡學到東西,開始新生活,新的環境,新的學習,這個意思。</p>
<p>問:那你先生一直在紐約城市,有沒有想過搬到其他城市如加州或其他州?</p>
<p>王:一直沒有考慮過。</p>
<p>問:你初來時,在紐約的那裡住?</p>
<p> 王:我初來時,在唐人街亨利街125號住了一年左右,覺得地方是小了一點,後來在布碌崙買屋住。</p>
<p>問:你初來時,對唐人街有什麼印象?</p>
<p>王:當時覺得唐人街很落後,不是我想像一般的發達,和人口較少,不是很興旺,是有工做,但亦不是我理想中的地方。嘻嘻!</p>
<p>問:都不是你想像。</p>
<p>王:不是我想要尋求的目標的地方。</p>
<p>問:那你未來美國之前,想像的美國是怎麼樣的?</p>
<p>王:我讀中學的時候,教英文的老師是英國人,是香港的議員,他說:「當你們長大的時候或者要到美國的城市,你在紐約的時候要見到Hudson River(赫德遜河)﹑摩天大樓,你們這麼年輕,會有這樣的機會,到那裡發展也不錯。」可能是那一句話,我覺得如有機會,在那裡的發展也會不錯。所以我心目中美國很發達﹑很繁榮﹑很多工作機會,都幾好。但是來到後,當時只見到唐人街,所以知道不是心目中的紐約。</p>
<p>問:沒有機會看到其他的城市?</p>
<p>王:未,那當然後來改觀了,知道紐約是很繁榮發達的,是金融﹑時裝中心,人口﹑旅遊各方面都很好,當時物價亦很便宜,<br>
工作很好,時間很好,樣樣都好,只是陌生了一點。<br>
當時我曾想找一些老番(美國人)的工作,但他們不是叫我取出文憑,便要大學文憑,或是問我是否公民?來美國多久了?我見了幾份美國工都不成功,坐著不做工又不是辦法。<br>
我曾經想讀書,增廣一下知識,華埠當時只有兩間機構可以讀書,我問過,覺得都不適合我的水平,那些都是初級的英文,對於我完成香港的Form 4(中四)程度的人並不適合,所以我沒有尋求其他的學校去唸書。</p>
<p>問:你怎樣進入衣廠工作呢?</p>
<p>王:我有位親戚在East Broadway(東百老匯)開衣廠的,在現在的怡東酒樓再過去一點,在二樓開衣廠,他說:「你有空,不如到我的衣廠做工。」我說:「我不懂車衣,從來未車過衣的!」他說:「你這麼聰明,一學就會。」我說:「我怎可靠車衣揾食,我甚至連拿針都不懂,怎麼會車衣呢?」他說:「行行行,你很快會學會。」後來即便試一試。當時工作時間都很好,返九時,放六時,星期六開工有overtime pay(超時工資)補薪,有大假期,有特別的假期錢加上去,當時生活水平很低。</p>
<p>問:但你先生也做工?</p>
<p>王:有,他在餐館做廚師,他是頭廚,收入相當不錯呀。所以我們只在唐人街一年,很快就在布碌崙買屋。<br>
那我在衣廠做,很快,才個多月學曉車褲,立即加入工會。我在工廠工作時有經紀上廠,說:「你在這行業要加入工會。」我說:「好。」</p>
<p>問:你為何要加入工會?</p>
<p>王:因為我聽見經紀說,你在美國生活,做這個行業要加入工會,加入工會後工會會維護工人的利益。所以個個工友都參加,沒有人不參加的,只要你是工人工友,便可以參加,如你製衣工人便加入製衣工人工會,那我加入105工會,車衣工會工人的工會。</p>
<p>問:你一直做車衣的?</p>
<p>王:我一直不懂裁剪,因為衣料來到的時候,已是一塊一塊cut(裁剪) 好,西人(美國人)送過來,我們只是加工。</p>
<p>問:你的老闆是唐人?</p>
<p>王:我的老闆都是唐人。</p>
<p>問:那你覺得做車衣工廠的環境好不好?</p>
<p>王:那時車衣工廠的環境過得去,但不會給你冷氣,有風扇,老闆待工人不錯,很友善,老闆有感激你的心情。他們對我當然很好,對一般工友都很好,除了僱主和僱員之間,還有一份特別好的感情,很好。</p>
<p> 問:和你一起做工的人差不多大部份都加入工會?</p>
<p>王:百分之一百參加了工會,沒有人不參加工會,個個都參加工會的。</p>
<p>問:那老闆喜不喜歡你們參加工會?</p>
<p>王:喜歡,當時是老闆叫工友參加工會,不是工人叫參加工會。老闆呼籲工友參加工會,說:「你要參加工會,有工會好,工會給你藍十字,放假有假期錢,有很多對你有好處的東西。」</p>
<p>問:老闆都鼓勵你們參加?</p>
<p>王:是,老闆鼓勵工友參加。</p>
<p>問:你們加入工會,對老闆而言,是會多花金錢的?</p>
<p>王:哦,以前維護工人的福利金,是發衣商交一部份福利金,老闆給一部份,是這樣分出來錢來的,但那時候老闆環境好,老闆願意分一部份出來,不計較,很開心,既然每日出衣很多,覺得應該給工人一份。</p>
<p>問:你每星期賺到幾多錢?</p>
<p>王:那時候(1974年)一星期做36小時,做5天工,很少星期六開工的,頂多做40小時,因為我們是按件計工人,不是和老闆計鐘的。<br>
和老闆計鐘的,一星期有300至350元,看老闆給你多少工,就按鐘計。但我們車位沒有底薪,沒有minimum pay,做多少給多少。</p>
<p>問:你做工屬於快或慢?</p>
<p>王:我是屬於piece work(按件計),當時後生,手腳都快,當時每星期賺200元至250元,一位朋友在銀行做經理的,叫王先生,他問:「你想不想找工作做?可以來我的銀行做。」我問:「你的銀行一星期給我多少人工?」他說:「初來我們銀行時,一星期大約是150至160元。」我心想:「這麼少,都是做衣廠較好。」</p>
<p>問:你做衣車工是不是很辛苦,手呀﹑腳呀﹑坐得久等動作?</p>
<p>王:我起初時真的不習慣,覺得辛苦,但是因為每個星期五,取得薪金後,只要50元就買得到很多東西,開心時,就連辛苦也不覺得,做事時又可和旁邊的工友有傾有講,很開心,不覺得太難,不似起初時覺得我什麼都不懂,以為如何做得來。</p>
<p>問:但你和先生收入加起來,生活都幾好?</p>
<p>王:當時的生活相當富裕了,那時我覺得一個月有千多元收入,我倆夫婦加起來有1400至1500元,是相當好的了。</p>
<p>問:你一直做下去,沒有想過轉行?</p>
<p> 王:是的,一直做下去。1979年我轉到拉菲逸街這邊的工會做,這邊的工會不同,因為當時有幾個車衣分會,車衣工會有23-25分會﹑105分會﹑199分會。我以前的工會是105,轉工後,工會由105轉到23-25分會,即現在的成紡聯合車衣工會UNITE。</p>
<p>問:現在的UNITE大約有多少members (成員)?</p>
<p>王:現在的UNITE大約嘛,準確的數字在唐人街只有數千,以前最高峰時期有一萬多member(會員)。</p>
<p>問:現在的新移民多數有沒有參加工會?</p>
<p>王:現在的新移民一半一半,當他們入車衣廠做時,一半會參加,一半會先考慮,想一下是否應該參加,因為初來時經濟基礎不好,覺得可以慳一個仙就一個仙,不想交會費,或看清楚一點,看是否對自己有益處,才決定是否參加。</p>
<p>問:是否任何人都可以參加,或者有身份時才可以參加?</p>
<p>王:任何人都可以參加,沒有限制,就算沒有身份也可以參加的,因為工會除了維護有身份人士權益,也維護無身份人士權益。現在一部份工友,特別是沒有身份的人,他們不明白沒有身份也可以參加,就不敢參加工會,怕有政治性,又怕惹上麻煩。那是很誤解的。事實上,他們也是移民,相反來說,工會在上星期,我們和工會政治部職員會見senator(參議員),<br>
提出五項要求。第一項是New York Health Plan,第二項是最低工資,增加最低工資。</p>
<p>問:Minimum Wage?</p>
<p>王:對,Minimum Wage。由5元多加至7元多。第三是,將Empire Zone(帝國轄區),如商業從旺區搬到舊區,可獲稅務減免,製造更多就業機會。</p>
<p>問:每月交會費多少?</p>
<p>王:工會會費每月是23元2角,半年會費是139.20。每次交會費他們說多少我就寫多少。我一交交半年會費,但有些人喜歡按月交費。</p>
<p>問:你說沒有身份的人以為參加了工會,政府會來找他?</p>
<p>王:事實上不是這樣,事實若沒有身份的人參加了工會,工會為這些人要求政府通過法例,該法例說新移民來到美國,他們一樣在這裡生活及消費,希望政府通過法例,讓他們取得合法身份,獲得綠卡或暫時合法居留,以後轉綠卡。我們也時時見國會議員討論這些問題,你知道立法的事,要多年的要求及爭取,才可取得[成績]。像現在爭取得的兒童保健,是向多次參議員﹑眾議員見面傾偈,才有結果的。</p>
<p> 問:你說其中一個要求華盛頓的,是增加minimum wage (最低工資),你怕不怕因為現在在唐人街很多車衣都關閉,因為不能和第三世界國家的人工相比,如中國等,那些國家太便宜,你覺不覺得如提高美國工人薪金,這些工廠不能生存下法,工作機會還會更少呢?</p>
<p>王:這也是一個問題,因為事實,中國大陸勞工工資低,做生意的人大部份尋求廉價勞工,降低成本。美國國內是貴人工,無可否認失去了一些工作機會。但那不代表這個行業不能做下去,他們不可以經營。他們要搬的都已經搬走了,但紐約依然需要一些製衣的行業留在紐約做,好像有一些seasonal(季節性)的衣服一定要趕上市,或者有些在外地做得不合格的,不可以運回中國修改,因為一來一回花費時間,要馬上在紐約修改。所以製衣行業仍然有前景的,仍有可為。如說紐約提高工資會影響製衣行業,你看很多美國城市人的工資都比紐約高,為什麼紐約的生活費高,房租﹑食住﹑電話﹑gas(煤氣)費,什麼都加,聽說labor day(勞動節)過後,又會漲價。那麼工資一直低,跟不上生活指數;若跟不上生活指數,人們會遷移到別的地方;若遷移到別的地方,沒有工﹑則沒有商,工商工商,沒有工做,何來商機?商人何來生意?紐約是人口集中的地方,容易找到人手,人們找工也想在紐約容易找工,而事實上紐約容易找工做,特別是勞工及中下層的工作,是比較容易找工。甚至很多機構等人用時,都不問有沒有身份,願意聘請。這對於初到貴境的人來說很有利。</p>
<p> 問:在9/11時你仍然在唐人街做工?</p>
<p>王:是的。</p>
<p>問:那9/11有沒有影響你的工廠呢?</p>
<p>王:有,影響很大,工廠簡直沒有衣源,因為車子不准進入紐約市,不准入。Jobber(發衣商)cut(裁)了衣亦沒有辦法送入衣源,我們停了工,惟有領失業(金)。</p>
<p>問:你停了工多久?</p>
<p>王:都有3個月。</p>
<p>問:那時間一點收入都沒有?</p>
<p>王:一點收入都沒有,我們就領取失業(金)。</p>
<p> 問:你有沒有領取9/11的救濟金?</p>
<p>王:我本人沒有去取,我們的工友很多都有去申請,因為9/11之後,幾個月,3﹑4個月都沒有工開,後來有工開,但工作數量很少,一星期往往只開工一﹑兩天,有很多時間閒坐,有少數目的訂單來,就馬上要開工起貨。沒有辦法,閒坐那麼久,看見有書讀,就去報名,學9/11的course(課程),學電腦英文等。</p>
<p>問:你為什麼不去申請救濟金?</p>
<p>王:我覺得,可能我移民的日子比較長,我覺得自己過得去,自己的經濟可以維持就算了,將機會留給其他人,譬如他們初來到沒有經濟基礎又要租屋,孩子又少,他們應尋求幫助,他們沒有工開就沒有一點收入了。我們話到底有自己屋,又工作了多年,自己可以應付生活,自己過得去,不想搞太多事,所以我沒有尋求經濟方面(的援助),後來見這樣多人都讀書,其他工友又說:「為什麼你不去讀,你可以去讀的,不會影響你的其他方面的。」那我就唸了last最後一期,原來是最後一期。</p>
<p>問:在什麼時候呢?</p>
<p>王:2003年7,8月我才去讀書,總共唸了好像6星期。</p>
<p>問:我聽講是唸13個星期的?</p>
<p>王:我讀完6星期,再讀6星期,即前後13個星期。</p>
<p>問:你選擇讀了什麼呢?</p>
<p>王:我選擇讀電腦及英語。</p>
<p>問:為什麼讀英文?我見你的英文很流利,是嗎?</p>
<p> 王:不是,我的英文不濟事的,很多時心目中想講的表達不出來,很多時,要在家中先想,又要請教英文很好的人幫手,問是否這樣講?可以嗎?才敢勉強表達一些意思,總的不算行。</p>
<p>問:那你覺得13星期的課程有沒有用?</p>
<p>王:很有用,第一學曉電腦上一些簡單的用途,英文方面學到一點點,他們教得很淺,學不到很多。</p>
<p>問:你是在那裡學習的?</p>
<p>王:是在City Hall(大會堂)學的。</p>
<p>問:是那一個公司組織的?</p>
<p>王:那一家公司,我不太清楚,好像說是9/11Fund(基本)。</p>
<p>問:你在報紙看到的?</p>
<p>王:不,是一位工友正在那裡唸書,介紹我的,好像說是9/11……。</p>
<p>問:老師大部份是什麼人?</p>
<p>王:大部份是白人,都有一兩個唐人,是台灣學生,在這裡唸大學。</p>
<p>問:你覺得他們了解你的情形嗎?</p>
<p> 王:他們都很了解,上課時他們問我們一些問題,工友都很坦白回答。</p>
<p>問:你覺得那13個星期的學習都有用,除了你得到一點錢外?</p>
<p>王:當然,有用,因為一些工友一生人都未唸過書,連ABC也不會,唸了13個星期後,最起碼他會寫自己的名字,識寫地址,識講自己的地址,在那裡住,電話號碼等。</p>
<p>問:你學的是非常基本的英文,對你的事業沒有什麼……?</p>
<p>王:我覺得對我的私人有幫助。</p>
<p>問:對你事業無幫助,對你私人就有幫助。你有沒有考慮過到轉業呢?</p>
<p>王:我到現在為止,我也沒有考慮過轉業。</p>
<p>問:你認為是因為自己年紀大,沒有這個機會,或是你喜歡你現在的工作?</p>
<p>王:我仍然喜歡我現在做的車衣行業,這是原因之一;原因之二是因為我的年紀大,已到退休的年齡,你去找工作,別人都會考慮用一個年青人,不會考慮用1一個快退休的人,所以我也沒有考慮想要轉行。</p>
<p>問:所以你的工廠關門四個月是不是?</p>
<p> 王:是。</p>
<p>問:後來是不是返回正常?</p>
<p>王:工廠後來一直有工開。最近又較為忙碌一些。</p>
<p>問:你是不是一直和同一間公司做工?</p>
<p>王:不是,我在其中轉了很多間衣廠,這幾十年變化很大,大概做了四﹑五間廠。我和每一個老闆的關係很好,有點友情,有些老闆結束了,從事別的行業,有由子女繼續經營。</p>
<p>問:那你希望你的子女做這一行嗎?</p>
<p>王:當然不會,但我有兩個兒子都做回餐館那一行,但不在紐約做,兩個在賓州費城做。</p>
<p>問:你覺得唐人街最大的變化是什麼?</p>
<p>王:最大的變化是人口的變化。當時唐人街的租金很便宜,1974年租金(每月)120元,有兩房一廚一浴室,雖然房間不算大。我當時租金135,住了一年後加租至150元。兩房以上月租180元,現在當然是數倍以上。當時沒有那麼多在街邊賣菜,賣雜貨,那時全部都在店中賣,沒有那麼多茶樓及餐廳,更不要說擴充到這麼大,擴展到Delancey那邊,很少人行,就算Bowery包厘賣珠寶有些工友,入夜都不會經過,<br>
不敢經過,有些工友說:「嘩,不要行呀!那些老番捉人的,有人駕駛汽車來捉你走!」當時女人很無知!聽了好怕!</p>
<p>問:你來了這麼久,你滿意這裡的生活嗎?</p>
<p>(Side B)</p>
<p>王:哦…….,我想我沒有選擇錯誤。我覺得在美國,特別在紐約的生活,紐約是一個交通很方便的地方,我可以養車,但不養車也很自由,到那裡都有交通工具。家庭生活方面,我自己有房屋,住得很舒服,因為入車衣工會的行業,在工會地方不斷學習,我認識很多朋友,從朋友﹑學校﹑工會組織在暑期學習,我參加很多不同的活動,參加勞工婦聯,亞太勞聯﹑勞工組織,有些政治活動我也參加,我很喜歡聽別人說話的。我覺得年青時想多讀書,但沒有機會,到紐約入車衣行業,由於參加了工會,我有機會參加了更多不同課程,我雖然用了不少金錢及時間,但社會方面的學識增加了不少。所以我也很滿足,我覺得很快樂。<br>
以前我未來時,我想我老了要返回香港養老,但現在我的兄弟姐妹說:「現在香港的樓平,你回來吧!美國的樓咁值錢,如果你賣了樓回來住,你可以退休了。」我說不行,我要回來紐約住。當我去旅行時,在飛機聽見,「紐約,紐約,I Love New York(我愛紐約)。」我很喜歡。回到這裡,我覺得這是真正的家,現在已經有很多朋友在這裡。</p>
<br>
<p>問:多謝你,將這麼多的故事,和唐人街的經驗,告訴我們。</p>
<p>王:很多謝你,鄭小姐,你太客氣了。</p>
<p>問:多謝你,王太太。</p>
<p>王:Thank you. </p>
<p>(完)</p>
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Title
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Agnes Wong
911DA Item
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approved
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unknown
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unknown
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
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Title
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Shi Yun Chin
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-05-21
Chinatown Interview: Language
Chinese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
garment worker
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
Today is May 24, 2004. We’re at #193 Centre Street. Sitting
with me is Mr. Chin. Mr. Chin, could you please tell us your story,
tell a little bit about where you were born?</p>
<p>A:
I was born in China’s Guangdong Province, in Taishan
Prefecture.</p>
<p>Q:
Oh, you’re of Taishan descent?</p>
<p>A:
Because of the civil war in China, my family was forced to flee to
Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Q:
What year was that?</p>
<p>A:
It was either in the 1950s or 1960s, I don’t remember very
clearly.</p>
<p>Q:
Either way, it was after the Communist Liberation?</p>
<p>A:
I went with my parents to Taiwan, and I grew up and was educated in
Taiwan. My maternal grandparents immigrated to America very early,
and I myself immigrated in 1976.</p>
<p>Q:
Let’s slow down a little. Why did you go to Taiwan and not
stay in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>A:
At that time I was still small. Maybe it was because my father had
economic or political reasons causing him to go to Taiwan. The
Nationalist Party and the Communist Party were enemies then, and
maybe that’s why he had to go.</p>
<p>Q:
How old were you then?</p>
<p>
A: 2 or 3.</p>
<p>Q:
So you were very small then, and you really grew up in Taiwan.</p>
<p>A:
Yes. I grew up in Taiwan and was educated there. Later, my father
immigrated [to America] in 1974, just when I was fulfilling my
military service. Men all have compulsory military service, and
after I finished it, I came to America.</p>
<p>Q:
So why did they come to America?</p>
<p>A:
My parents came because my grandparents had come. For example, if I
had come, I would wish that my children would follow me.</p>
<p>Q:
So your father came first while you were serving in the military, and
then you came to America later.</p>
<p>A:
Right.</p>
<p>Q:
How long did you serve in the military?</p>
<p>A:
Three years.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did they choose New York City?</p>
<p>A:
Because my grandparents had chosen New York.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did they choose New York and not California?</p>
<p>A:
I’m not really clear on that.</p>
<p>Q:
The year you immigrated to New York, how old were you?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A:
That was 1976, and I was 24 or 25.</p>
<p>Q:
When you came, did you already understand English?</p>
<p>A:
In Taiwan, I had finished high school, so I understood a little bit
of English.</p>
<p>Q:
So after you came, what impressions did you have of America? Were
you afraid of coming to a foreign place?</p>
<p>A:
I wasn’t afraid because the culture in Taiwan is already very
close to the West, and more open to the world. I had a certain
understanding of Western things, and didn’t feel it was
foreign. It seemed like the movies, TV, radio, newspapers,
magazines, they all talked about America, so I had already absorbed a
lot of Western information. For example, the Communist Party is an
iron curtain, and I’m not saying they’re bad, but they
are more closed off, and so people from China lack information about
this area, and for that reason it’s harder for them to adjust.
Coming from Taiwan, I had this kind of information, this environment,
and it was easier for me to accept things.</p>
<p>Q:
So previously your impression of America was from television, books,
or from the letters you got from relatives living in America telling
about life there.</p>
<p>A:
The information I got was that America was an advanced, free country,
and that there was an American dream.</p>
<p>Q:
You have an American dream. What is it?</p>
<p>A:
At that time, I was young, and I had my own aspirations. Men just
want to create their own business, establish their family and career,
and make their lives complete.</p>
<p>Q:
Back when you were in the military, what was your dream job?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A:
Before I had come over, I still didn’t know what sort of
careers available in America would suit me. After I arrived, I would
have to see and experience things, and then I would know, because you
can’t predict things in advance. My parents were working in
the garment business, so I also entered that line of work, and
because of their influence, I knew a little bit about that field [of
work]. In New York during that period, Chinese people had two
careers, working either in restaurants or in garment manufacturing,
and the numbers employed were really huge, so I joined the garment
manufacturing business without even thinking.</p>
<p>Q:
So your parents did garment manufacturing in Chinatown?</p>
<p>A:
Right.</p>
<p>Q:
And how old were they at the time?</p>
<p>A:
Between 50 and 60 years old.</p>
<p>Q:
Wasn’t it very difficult to adjust to beginning work for the
first time in garment manufacturing when they’re already
between the ages of 50 and 60 years old?</p>
<p>A:
Not really, because Chinatown’s population was tightly
clustered, and as far as language goes, it was relatively easy to
communicate, so daily shopping was easier, for example, and there
were newspapers and magazines, there were Chinese theaters, and they
could go out easily and walk around.</p>
<p>Q:
You said that you entered this profession without giving it much
thought. Have you ever considered going to college?</p>
<p>A:
Yes, I’ve thought of continuing my education, but my parents
had to work, and I have a lot of siblings, so maybe due to financial
problems, I just couldn’t do that. Originally I
had thought of studying and working at the same time, but I couldn’t
do it in that environment, I had to work full-time. I was already in
my twenties, and I had to be independent.</p>
<p>Q:
Before your parents came to America, what sort of work did they do in
Hong Kong or Taiwan?</p>
<p>A:
My father was a public official in Taiwan, and my mother was a
housewife.</p>
<p>Q:
You entered this profession in your twenties, would that be
considered rather young?</p>
<p>A:
It would.</p>
<p>Q:
So when you first entered this profession, what did you do?</p>
<p>A:
When I first entered the profession, the normal jobs for men were
sorter and presser.</p>
<p>Q:
What was it like as a sorter?</p>
<p>A:
When products arrived, you separated them out, then you arranged the
manufacturing process. For example, the accessories to a pair of
pants, the buttons, the label, the zipper, you would separate the
parts out and send them out. This was considered men’s work.</p>
<p>Q:
So you weren’t actually making the clothes?</p>
<p>A:
I wasn’t actually making the clothes.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you receive formal training before you began this work?</p>
<p>A:
I didn’t get any formal training. Just start in the midst of
it, and I’d watch what others were doing and do the same thing.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
That was in 1976. What was the salary like then, for example, how
much could you make a week?</p>
<p>A:
If you worked five or six days a week, you could make 300 dollars a
week, and that was considered pretty good, because expenses were low,
and you could get by.</p>
<p>Q:
And at that time, you were in your twenties and didn’t have a
family to support?</p>
<p>A:
Right.</p>
<p>Q:
You entered that profession very quickly. Did you feel like your
American dream was a disappointment, in that as soon as you arrived
you started working in a garment factory?</p>
<p>A:
Everyone has a different American dream. I think that I didn’t
have enough education or talent, and I couldn’t reach some high
standard, but I could take care of myself in America, I could live
peacefully and enjoy my work, and without expecting too much, I could
get by.</p>
<p>Q:
In this profession, where there were so many female garment workers,
did you enjoy the work?</p>
<p>A:
I enjoyed this work because of my firm conviction in working hard and
getting along with others. I respected my profession, and I got
along well with others.</p>
<p>Q:
You did factory work for a long time, you worked in this profession
for a long time, but did you often switch factories, jumping to new
work when there was better pay?</p>
<p>
A: I worked in the garment industry for over twenty years, but I
only worked in a few factories, because my relations with the
employers and with the workers was very good, the employers treated
the employees very well, so there was no need to switch places, just
to put forth my effort and reap the rewards, and I wasn’t
“exploited.”</p>
<p>Q:
[Did you say] “Fall short”?</p>
<p>A:
No, I was speaking Mandarin Chinese. My Cantonese isn’t so
good.</p>
<p>Q:
Oh, your Cantonese is very good. So you didn’t think about
changing your profession. You continued in it all the way.</p>
<p>A:
Yes, I just kept doing it.</p>
<p>A:
Lots of people have said that garment work has reached its swan song,
some of that due to the government and some of that due to private
individuals. It seems that after the government signed the agreement
with Mexico, combining the economies and such, America’s own
production ability decreased, and the opportunities for employment
also decreased.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you ever lost your job during the last 20 years?</p>
<p>A:
Yes. For example, if the garment company running our factory didn’t
send us enough work and orders, then we would be laid off, but we
could collect unemployment benefits, because we had insurance.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you ever been unemployed for one or two years?</p>
<p>A:
Even if New York has weakened, there’s still at least some much
work to do.</p>
<p>
Q: When you came to New York, you had family here. Have you ever
thought of moving to any other place?</p>
<p>A:
No.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you ever wanted to move due to factors like the weather, and so
on?</p>
<p>A:
No, I’m used to it.</p>
<p>Q:
When you came in 1976, did you live in Chinatown?</p>
<p>A:
No, I lived in Manhattan. I worked in Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
Then have you always worked in Chinatown? What was your impression
towards Chinatown in 1976?</p>
<p>A:
There was good and bad, because in the 70s, there were gangs, and
that was all bad, they would disturb the peace and tranquility in the
community; the good thing was that it was easier to adjust, because
it was a Chinese community, the clothes, food, housing, are work were
all convenient, and it was more interconnected.</p>
<p>Q:
When did you establish your own family?</p>
<p>A:
In 1979.</p>
<p>Q:
When you met your wife, what was your profession?</p>
<p>A:
She was also working in the garment industry, but she stopped work
after having a baby, and then she stayed at home as a housewife,
because she wanted to take care of the children, and manage the
household.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you ever join a union?</p>
<p>A:
In ’76, when I started work in the garment factory, I also
joined the 23-25 Union.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you want to join the union?</p>
<p>A:
Because it had security and benefits. They offered worker’s
protection, and they had benefits like health insurance, holiday
time, lots of good things.</p>
<p>Q:
Now, did your bosses give you any pressure about joining the union,
did they tell you not to join the union?</p>
<p>A:
No, because America is a free country, so they can’t reject you
[based on that].</p>
<p>Q:
What were the employers like?</p>
<p>A:
My own employers were Chinese, some of them are from Hong Kong, and
some of them from mainland China.</p>
<p>Q:
Now, in the twenty years that you have been in Chinatown there have
been a lot of, in the 70s, there were lots of Chinese from Taishan in
Guangdong, and in the 80s, a lot came from Hong Kong, and then in the
last ten years, a lot have come from Fuzhou, so what kind of problems
come about when so many Chinese people from different regions are in
the same place?</p>
<p>A:
In my own experience, there haven’t been any problems, at work
everyone gets along, there aren’t any quarrels, because
everyone is working. I’ve heard that there have been
arguments, but they weren’t a big deal.</p>
<p>
Q: But newly arrived immigrants without any status are willing to
work for cheaper pay, and that creates competition. As a
Chinese-American who has been here for much longer, do you feel that
they are stealing your jobs or forcing down your salary?</p>
<p>A:
Personally I haven’t come across such a thing. I’ve
heard others say that, but still it’s not very common. The
employers have to run things according to the law, and they don’t
want to risk trouble. If the employer doesn’t follow the
employment laws, and he tries to exploit his workers, then he’ll
have to take responsibility, and I don’t think my employers
would be willing to do that.</p>
<p>Q:
So you’ve never felt any influence?</p>
<p>A:
I’ve worked at several garment factories, and the garment
factories had really perfect regulations, for example, fire
equipment, and children not allowed in the factories. They were
really excellent.</p>
<p>Q:
So the laws were very strict. Now, all the way until now, you’ve
never actually made the clothes, you were responsible for arranging…?</p>
<p>A:
No, I worked as a presser.</p>
<p>Q:
Oh, you are working as a presser?</p>
<p>A:
I’ve always pressed clothes.</p>
<p>Q:
In English we call it “presser.” Because I haven’t
worked in the production of clothing, I don’t understand the
process of manufacturing clothing. At what point does clothing reach
you to be pressed?</p>
<p>A:
When the garment factory produces a pair of pants, first comes a
strip of cloth, there’s the trunk of the pants, and there’s
the pockets, and it enters the clothing factory, and the
female textile workers sew up the trunk of the pants, sews on the
zipper, adds the buttons, and the legs, and completes the pants, then
there’s some string cutters who clean up the ends of the
strings, and then they come to us and we use steam to make them flat,
make them beautiful, and complete a pair of pants.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you sit as you do the pressing, or do you stand?</p>
<p>A:
I stand while I press. Because of the location of this equipment, I
need to stand while I do it.</p>
<p>Q:
Now you work seven hours a day, how is it that you don’t get
exhausted?</p>
<p>A:
Once you get used to it, you won’t feel exhausted.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you ever suffered any work-related illnesses?</p>
<p>A:
I’ve never had any work-related illnesses.</p>
<p>Q:
I’ve heard lots of female workers say that they sit for such
long hours that their hands and legs develop problems, isn’t
that true?</p>
<p>A:
Also some of them have pain in their hip bones.</p>
<p>Q:
And you are very healthy?</p>
<p>A:
The main problem is that on hot days I feel really hot, because in
that work environment, it’s not possible to have air
conditioning, because there’s the steam, so air conditioning
wouldn’t work. But as long as there’s air flow, it’s
OK.</p>
<p>Q:
When you add on other machines too, isn’t it very hot?</p>
<p>
A: I can put it like this, that’s why we have fans and air
pumps, in order to make the air flow. The important thing is the
structure of the factory, and whether it has been designed well or
not.</p>
<p>Q:
When 9/11 took place, you were working in your factory. Where is it
located?</p>
<p>A:
It’s on Canal Street, between Lafayette and Broadway.</p>
<p>Q:
Is it close to this building?</p>
<p>A:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
What kind of impact did 9/11 have upon your life?</p>
<p>A:
Basically the time around 9/11 was extremely difficult days for
America, New York and for Chinatown. I myself personally suffered,
because after that day, a lot of my work had all but disappeared.
The traffic had been tightly restricted and the garment factories
didn’t open, there wasn’t any work, so we didn’t
get any income, and in that way we were impacted.</p>
<p>Q:
Is that because of the quarantine, and the raw materials couldn’t
get inside?</p>
<p>A:
Yes, the materials couldn’t get in or out. And people’s
attitudes changed, they became more hesitant, so there were many
weeks that we couldn’t do any work.</p>
<p>Q:
And that wasn’t because there were no people to work, there
were still people ordering products and there were people working,
but rather it was because vehicles couldn’t get in?</p>
<p>A:
Yes, because we were right next to the place where those repeated
disasters had occurred, and so our traffic was greatly controlled.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
So how long was your factory closed?</p>
<p>A:
Two, three weeks.</p>
<p>Q:
What did you do during that time?</p>
<p>A:
I stopped working. I didn’t go to work.</p>
<p>Q:
And what about your income?</p>
<p>A:
Since we weren’t operating, we didn’t have any income.</p>
<p>Q:
In this kind of situation, what help could your union provide?</p>
<p>A:
After 9/11 occurred, the entire world, all of America helped out New
Yorkers, and people like us who lost our work, who suffered, the
organizations like the Red Cross, Safe Horizon, and the union, they
all offered assistance and help. For example, some people had no
income for several weeks, and some couldn’t pay their rent, or
they couldn’t buy food. The Red Cross first helped these
people.</p>
<p>Q:
Mr. Chin, did you yourself apply for economic assistance?</p>
<p>A:
Yes, because I had suffered, I was a victim of 9/11.</p>
<p>Q:
And was that because your factory had temporarily closed?</p>
<p>A:
It had temporarily stopped operations.</p>
<p>Q:
Now how did you know about [the economic assistance], did the news
report that you could go to these organizations and apply, or did you
hear from something else?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A:
I saw it in newspapers and magazines, from the news in newspapers,
and from what my friends said, what they told me.</p>
<p>Q:
How many places did you go apply?</p>
<p>A:
I applied at the 9/11 Safe Horizon because the 9/11 Safe Horizon
helped victims a lot. Because I was a victim.</p>
<p>Q:
Even though you don’t live in this area…</p>
<p>A:
Because I worked in the area that was affected by the disaster. For
example, there was a one-time cash subsidy. Later, they helped us
apply for a few months of health insurance. Later they held training
classes, those lasted 13 weeks, and they taught English, computers
and business skills.</p>
<p>Q:
Which one did you select?</p>
<p>A:
I selected both English and computers.</p>
<p>Q:
How is your current English level?</p>
<p>A:
I can understand a little spoken English, and I know how to press
some of the computer keys.</p>
<p>Q:
If you were to move to a city without Chinese people, would your life
be difficult?</p>
<p>A:
Due to my life experience, I wouldn’t be afraid. The greatest
fear one has is fear itself. If you aren’t afraid, then even
in a difficult environment, if you have willpower and you’re
throw yourself into things, then everything will be fine.</p>
<p>
Q: So for thirteen weeks you studied English and computers, and…?</p>
<p>A:
And also studied some skills for the garment industry. I guess you
can say my profession is that of presser, and I learned some new
skills, such as how to make the products the best possible, how to
operate, how to run things, and I increased my skills, and stopped
using outdated methods which would overtax my body’s energy.</p>
<p>Q:
But you’ve already done this line of work for so long. Surely
you’ve already learned everything you need to know. In those
13 weeks, did you really learn anything knew?</p>
<p>A:
I did, because during all these years, I was just focused on working
each day, and I had no opportunity to learn anything new.</p>
<p>Q:
Did your factory have training every so often?</p>
<p>A:
No, it didn’t.</p>
<p>Q:
So you just used your same methods for ten or fifteen years without
any changes?</p>
<p>A:
Without changing at all. During those six weeks, I learned a lot of
stuff.</p>
<p>Q:
Recently, the garment production business has gradually been
outsourcing to foreign countries. Have you thought about changing
your line of work?</p>
<p>A:
If I wanted to change professions, to speak bluntly, I’m too
old for that, my age won’t let me adapt, to start over anew,
because I’m not a young man anymore.</p>
<p>Q:
You don’t look old.</p>
<p>[The
interviewee laughs.]</p>
<p>
Q: Do you fear that there will be no more work in this field?</p>
<p>A:
I have a lot of confidence in it, I’m certain there will still
be work.</p>
<p>Q:
So you would say that the amount of work might decrease, but it won’t
disappear?</p>
<p>A:
It’s just like food, it’s not going to disappear. Just
as people will always need food, there will always be a need for
clothing, people will definitely need to wear clothing.</p>
<p>Q:
But your salaries can never be as low as those in China?</p>
<p>A:
Well, that’s talking about the ability to compete. Our
strength here in New York is that we can produce clothing more
quickly. That’s something that China and Southeast Asia can’t
keep up with, don’t you agree?</p>
<p>Q:
So if the order is not large, you can finish the job quickly in a
short amount of time and provide the goods, while distant places
can’t do that.</p>
<p>A:
It seems that in the business world, a single day’s difference
is quite significant.</p>
<p>Q:
Let’s go back to discussing those thirteen weeks. Besides
training, was there any other subsidy?</p>
<p>A:
During those 13 weeks, we didn’t work, we gained knowledge, and
we studied for 35 hours every week. During this time we couldn’t
work, so there wasn’t any salary. But the 9/11 compensation
gave us 300 dollars a week.</p>
<p>Q:
Was this 300 dollars less than what you were making at the factory?</p>
<p>A:
No, because…</p>
<p>
Q: You said that in the 70s, you made 300 dollars a week, and if
you’re still only making 300 dollars a week, how is that enough
for your daily life?</p>
<p>A:
Because I wasn’t going to classes every single day, and I would
use my mornings, I would first work for 4 or 5 hours, and then go to
class. I would go to classes according to their schedule, and in
that way I had the 300 dollars in compensation, and besides I had a
bit of salary from my work.</p>
<p>Q:
So you were still working, you didn’t completely stop work?</p>
<p>A:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
How long was work halted after 9/11?</p>
<p>A:
It completely stopped for two or three weeks. Afterwards, it came
back very gradually, and became stable. The garment factories’
progress slowly returned to normal, and then there were the training
courses, that kind of education. Because of 9/11, a lot of the
garment factories closed down, because they couldn’t maintain
themselves.</p>
<p>Q:
And that was because materials couldn’t get in?</p>
<p>A:
And it was also because the garment factories had to bear everyday
operating expenses, such as rent, utilities, and at the same time
there was no product, and they couldn’t keep it up.</p>
<p>Q:
But your factory didn’t have that problem…?</p>
<p>A:
Our boss and workers both understood each other’s situation,
that we were in the same boat, and we worked together to get through
those difficulties.</p>
<p>
Q: What kind of teacher did you have during those 13 weeks, was
the teacher Chinese or White…?</p>
<p>A:
There were Whites and also Chinese.</p>
<p>Q:
There were Chinese?</p>
<p>A:
The Chinese teachers used Chinese to explain things. It seems that
for the English classes they used non-Chinese [literally:
“foreigners”], and it seems that the computer teacher was
a non-Chinese, at least that’s the way it was in my class.</p>
<p>Q:
At the time, did you think about changing your job? Did they
encourage you to study new professions?</p>
<p>A:
There was a bit of everything, but they knew that the students’
levels didn’t reach so high, so they didn’t remind us
that we should change professions. In the computer classes, we could
only learn the most basic stuff, so we couldn’t change careers
based on that.</p>
<p>Q:
Did studying computers help you in your work after you finished the
classes?</p>
<p>A:
At the moment, we don’t have any need for computers, there’s
no need for computers at work, so learning about computers was a
matter of gaining personal knowledge.</p>
<p>Q:
Which organization provided the 13 weeks of training?</p>
<p>A:
The 23-25 Union.</p>
<p>Q:
Did the union run the classes themselves, or did another organization
take responsibility for the teaching?</p>
<p>
A: I think it was the CWE, I think that organization’s
system was very good, they started classes on time, and after we
finished there were tests. After putting forth so much effort, they
also wanted to know what kind of results there were.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think that 13 weeks was sufficient? Would you like to
continue studying?</p>
<p>A:
I think that, if it didn’t affect my work, I would like to
continue studying, because people desire to increase their knowledge,
and gain better knowledge.</p>
<p>Q:
After the economic assistance ended, how did you get by?</p>
<p>A:
I returned to my position as a worker, and worked normally.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you work the same amount afterwards, or did you do less?</p>
<p>A:
In our factory, we had dozens of people go do the training, so it
affected the amount that our boss was able to produce. After those
13 weeks were over, we all worked very hard for the boss, because we
had a responsibility to the company.</p>
<p>Q:
Your children have all grown up now. Do you wish for them to follow
you in this career?</p>
<p>A:
My children have already grown up. They’ve graduated from
college and found jobs. They don’t do this line of work. My
older daughter is working as an accountant, while the younger one
works at Bloomingdale’s. I think they’re doing very
good, they’re doing management work.</p>
<p>Q:
So your American dream has more or less been fulfilled in your
children’s lives too, hasn’t it?</p>
<p>
A: We Chinese want our sons to grow up to be like dragons and our
daughters to grow up to be like phoenixes, so now that they have had
this measure of success, I feel a bit of satisfaction.</p>
<p>Q:
How long do you plan to work before retiring?</p>
<p>A:
To put it directly, I will work until I can’t, and then I’ll
retire.</p>
<p>Q:
You look like you’re in excellent health, isn’t that
right?</p>
<p>A:
A person’s health is very important.</p>
<p>Q:
You’ve worked in Chinatown for many years, what changes do you
think Chinatown has undergone in these decades? Other than the
increase in population and the widening of the roads, what changes
have taken place among the Chinese people, or in the Chinese
community?</p>
<p>A:
The changes have been very dramatic. I’ll tell you something
funny. At that time, when I first came from Taiwan, all the Chinese
in Chinatown spoke Taishan-style Cantonese, and at that time if
someone on the street spoke Mandarin Chinese, I would have thought it
was really weird, and I’d look up and see who it was, because
there were really few people that spoke Mandarin Chinese. Nowadays,
if you don’t speak the Fuzhou dialect, people think it’s
really strange, because Chinatown has so many people from Fuzhou now.
So the change in 20 years has been huge.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think that such different Chinese people can unite?</p>
<p>A:
I have the feeling that they have their own cliques. Taishan people
have Taishan circles, and I think that interacting with them is a lot
easier.</p>
<p> Q: Well, considering that you’re not from Taishan either,
which circle do you feel like you belong to?</p>
<p>A:
I have my own friends, my own partner, I’m more easy-going.</p>
<p>Q:
Besides the union, are you a member of any other groups?</p>
<p>A:
Community groups or that sort of thing, no.</p>
<p>Q:
Why is that? You don’t feel the need, or…?</p>
<p>A:
I don’t know. I feel that those are groups for long-term
Chinese-Americans. That’s the way I feel.</p>
<p>Q:
You’re not old, but you have been in America a long time, so do
you consider yourself to be…?</p>
<p>A:
I’m also a long-term Chinese-American, but I also have my own
circle. Besides work, on Sundays I go fishing with my friends, go
have fun.</p>
<p>Q:
We’ve already talked for a long time, Mr. Chin, but do you feel
that we’ve forgotten anything, about life, work, or your
personal views…?</p>
<p>A:
To joke a little, I think you’ve already mastered me as a
subject. Ha ha…</p>
<p>Q:
Ha, ha – well, we’ll stop here then.</p>
<p>A:
Thank you.</p>
<p>Q:
Thank you!</p>
<p>[End]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:今日是2004年5月24 日,我們在中央街193號,和我坐在一起是陳先生。陳先生,先講你的故事,可以講一下在那裡出生?</p>
<p>陳:我在中國廣東省台山縣出世。</p>
<p>問:噢,你是台山人?</p>
<p>陳:因為中國大陸內戰,我的家庭逼不得已逃到香港去。</p>
<p>問:你在那一年?</p>
<p>陳:1950年代或1960年代,我記不清楚了。</p>
<p>問:都是在解放之後。</p>
<p>陳:跟著我的父母親去了台灣,在台灣長大及受教育,外祖父母早年移民美國,我自己於1976年移民來了紐約。</p>
<p>問:我們慢慢說,你為什麼不逗留在香港,而去台灣?</p>
<p>陳:當時我仍少,可能家父為了經濟或政治問題,必須要去台灣,因為國民黨及共產黨處於敵對狀態,不得不去。</p>
<p>問:那時你多大?</p>
<p> 陳:2至3歲。</p>
<p>問:那你當時很小,真正是在台灣長大。</p>
<p>陳:是,在台灣長大及受教育,後來我父親在1974年移民,隨跟我在台灣服兵役,男子都要服兵役,服完兵役了來美國。</p>
<p>問:那麼他們又為什麼來美國呢?</p>
<p>陳:我父母來,因為我祖父母先來了。又譬如如果我來,我也希望子女也隨即來。</p>
<p>問:故你父先來,你當兵,之後來美國。</p>
<p>陳:對。</p>
<p>問:你當兵多少年?</p>
<p>陳:三年。</p>
<p>問:他們為什麼揀選紐約城市?</p>
<p>陳:因為我祖父母揀選紐約。</p>
<p>問:他們為什麼揀紐約,為什麼不去加州呢?</p>
<p>陳:那我就不清楚了。</p>
<p>問:移民到紐約那一年,你年紀多大?</p>
<p> 陳:1976年,24至25歲</p>
<p>問:那你來時是否已經懂英文?</p>
<p>陳:在台灣時,我唸完High School(高中),識一點點英文。</p>
<p>問:那來到後,你對美國有什麼印象?你來到一個陌生的地方,有沒有感到害怕?</p>
<p>陳:我不怕,因為台灣社會比較親西方,世界比較開放,對於西方資訊有一定了解,不會覺得陌生。好像電影﹑電視﹑收音機﹑報張﹑雜誌都有講美國,所以我對西方資訊比較接受。譬如共產黨是個鐵幕,我不是說共產黨不好,但是比較封閉,所以會缺乏這方面的資訊,所以比較難於適應。從台灣來的,有了這種資訊,這個環境,比較容易接受。</p>
<p>問:之前你對美國的印象是從電視﹑書本或美國居民的家人寫信回來得知的美國生活。</p>
<p>陳:我得到的資訊,是美國是先進﹑自由﹑的國家,有一種美國夢。</p>
<p>問:你有個American dream(美國夢),那是什麼?</p>
<p>陳:那時年輕,有自己的抱負,男子就是能夠創造自己的事業,成家立業,自己完成。</p>
<p>問:在當兵之後,你夢想的事業是什麼?</p>
<p> 陳:我未來之前,不知道美國有那一種行業適合我,到來了之後,必須要看過,或者要試過,才可以知,因為事先沒有辦法估計得到。因為父母在製衣業就業,我也跟著入了這一行,因為受到父母的一點影響,對這方面有些少的認識。在美國紐約那個年代,華人的兩大行業,是餐館及製衣業,就業人數很多,我亦無意中加入製衣業,</p>
<p>問:你爸媽在唐人街做製衣廠?</p>
<p>陳:對。</p>
<p>問:那他們當時幾多歲?</p>
<p>陳:50至60歲。</p>
<p>問:到50至60歲才開始做衣廠,會不會適應很困難?</p>
<p>陳:不會,因為華埠人口很集中,語言上比較容易溝通,譬如生活購物比較容易,有報張雜誌,有中國戲院,他們很容易外出走動。</p>
<p>問:你不經意就入了這行,有沒有考慮入大學?</p>
<p>陳:有,我想過繼續讀書,但因為父母親要做工,兄弟姐妹又多,可能因為經濟問題,沒有辦法。<br>
本來想一面讀書,一面做工,但當的的環境不能允許我,我必須要全職做工,我已經廿多歲,必須要獨立。</p>
<p>問:父母必來美國之前,在香港或台灣是做什麼工作呢?</p>
<p>陳:我父親在台灣是公務員,我母親是家庭主婦。</p>
<p>問:你廿多歲便入這行,算是很年青了?</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:你初入行時,是做什麼的呢?</p>
<p>陳:初入行時,男性通常是職位只有開份或吸衣。</p>
<p>問:開份,那是怎樣的呢?</p>
<p>陳:開份是貨來時,將它分門別類,然後安排生產的流程,譬如一條褲的配件,有鈕﹑有標籤(label)﹑拉鍊﹑就將它分門別類發出去。這是屬於男性的工作。</p>
<p>問:即是你不是正式做車衣?</p>
<p>陳:不是正式做車衣。</p>
<p>問:你入行之前有沒有正式受過訓練?</p>
<p>陳:沒有正式受訓練。像半途出家,看見別人如何,自己就跟著做。</p>
<p> 問:那是在1976年,當時薪金是多少,譬如一禮拜可以賺幾多錢?</p>
<p>陳:如果一禮拜做五﹑六日,一禮拜可賺300元,那時算不錯,因為物價低,算過得去。</p>
<p>問:同時你廿多歲未有家庭負擔?</p>
<p>陳:對。</p>
<p>問:你很快就入了這一行,你的美國夢有沒有感到失望,就像一來到就入車衣業?</p>
<p>陳:每個人的美國夢都不同,我認為我的學識不夠,能力不夠,不能達到高標準,但能在美國安份守己,安居樂業,沒有大志就可以過得去。</p>
<p>問:你在這一行,多數是女人做車衣業,你喜歡這個職業嗎?</p>
<p>陳:我喜歡這個職業,因為一個敬業樂群的信念,我尊重我的職業,我與同事又相處得好,</p>
<p>問:你在那時的工廠很多,你又同一行業很久,你是否時時轉廠,有好的薪金就跳槽?</p>
<p>陳:我在製衣業廿多年,但只做了幾間廠,因為我和僱主的勞資關係很好,<br>
僱主對員工關係很好,沒有必要跳槽,出一份力,拿一份收獲,沒有受到剝削。</p>
<p>問:Fall short?</p>
<p>陳:不,我是在講國語,我的廣東話不是很好。</p>
<p>問:噢,你的廣東話很好。沒有想過轉行,一直做下去?</p>
<p>陳:一直做下去。</p>
<p>陳:很多人都說車衣業走入尾聲,有些是因為政府的,有些是私人因素。政府的好像她訂立墨西哥條例,配額等,自己美國的生產能力少了,就業機會又少了。</p>
<p>問:你20多年來,有沒有失業?</p>
<p>陳:有,譬如你這間廠的發衣商公司,沒有批出這麼多工作,我們就變成失業,但可領失業金,因有保險。</p>
<p>問:有沒有試過,一年兩年失業?</p>
<p>陳:因為紐約怎樣淡也有少少工作做。</p>
<p>問:你來到紐約已經有家人在,你有沒有考慮搬到其他地方?</p>
<p> 陳:無。</p>
<p>問:有無因為天氣等因素,要搬?</p>
<p>陳:無,都適應了。</p>
<p>問:你1976年來到,住在唐人街?</p>
<p>陳:不,我住在曼哈頓。我做工就在唐人街。</p>
<p>問:那你是否一直在唐人街做工?那1976年你對唐人街的印象如何?</p>
<p>陳:有好有不好,因為70年代有幫派,那是不好的,會影響社區安寧;好的方面,就是生活比較適應,是華人社區,衣食住行方便,而且較融合些。</p>
<p>問:你何時成立自己的家庭。</p>
<p>陳:1979年。</p>
<p>問:你認識太太,她在什麼行業?</p>
<p>陳:她也在製衣業,她有BB之後不做工,一直是家庭主婦,因為她要take care(照顧)小孩子,打理家庭。</p>
<p>問:你有沒有加入工會?</p>
<p>陳:有76年,加入製衣業,我便加入了23-25工會,</p>
<p> 問:為什麼你要加入工會呢?</p>
<p>陳:因為它有保障有福利。保障工人,有福利如醫療﹑假期各方面都很好。</p>
<p>問:那老闆有沒有因為你參加工會,要負擔多一些,他們有沒有叫你不要參加工會?</p>
<p>陳:不會,因為美國是自由社會,不會不准你。</p>
<p>問:那麼僱主是什麼人?</p>
<p>陳:我自己的僱主是中國人,有些來自香港,有些從大陸來。</p>
<p>問:那你廿多年在唐人街很多批,70年代從廣東台山來,80年代由香港來,這10年又很多中國福州人,你覺得這麼多類不同地方來的中國人在一起會有什麼問題嗎?大家合得來嗎?</p>
<p>陳:以我經驗來講沒有碰過,工作上大家比較和氣,沒有什麼爭執,因為大家都是做工。聽講過有爭執,但也不是什麼大事情。</p>
<p>問:但新移民沒有身份的,他們願意收取低一點的薪金,形成競爭,你們老華僑是否覺得被搶去工作,被降低薪金?</p>
<p> 陳:我自己未遇到這事情,但聽聞別人說過,但很少這些情形。因為僱主要按照法例做事,不願冒險,如果僱主不顧條例,剝削了自己的員工,要負上責任,我想,我僱主不願這樣做。</p>
<p>問:你未有受過影響?</p>
<p>陳:我在幾間衣廠做過,衣廠的制度很健全,例如消防設備﹑不准小孩入衣廠﹑很完善。</p>
<p>問:即法例很嚴格。那你一直到今天,你也不是做車衣,你是負責安排……?</p>
<p>陳:不,我是做吸衣的。</p>
<p>問:噢,你現在做吸衣?</p>
<p>陳:我一直做吸衣的。</p>
<p>問:英文叫做presser。因為我不是做車衣行業,我不明白製衣的程序,何時才交到你手做吸衣的?</p>
<p>陳:發衣商發一條褲,先來一塊布,有褲頭,有袋,進入衣廠,女車衣工縫上褲頭﹑縫上拉鏈﹑打鈕﹑打腳,完成了一條褲的樣子,有些剪線把線尾清潔,clean up,到我們將褲用蒸氣,用steam,弄平,弄美麗,就完成一條褲。</p>
<p> 問:那你是坐著吸衣,還是站著吸衣?</p>
<p>陳:我是站著吸衣。因為這些工具的位置,要我站著做。</p>
<p>問:那你一天工作7小時,豈不是很疲倦?</p>
<p>陳:習慣了就不覺倦。</p>
<p>問:你有沒有患上職業病?</p>
<p>陳:沒有職業病。</p>
<p>問:聽很多女工說坐得多,手﹑腳都有問題,是不是?</p>
<p>陳:還有些有腰骨痛。</p>
<p>問:那你是不是很健康?</p>
<p>陳:主要是天熱的時候覺得太熱,因為那工作環境不允許有冷氣,因為有蒸氣,有冷氣也沒有用,但只要空氣流通就可以了。</p>
<p>問:加上其他的機器豈不是很熱?</p>
<p>陳:可以這麼說,所以有風扇,有抽氣﹑抽風,使空氣流通,主要看廠房的結構及設計好不好了。</p>
<p> 問:9/11時你在工廠做工,你的工廠在那裡?</p>
<p>陳:在堅尼路,between Lafayette & Broadway(在拉菲逸及百老匯之間)。</p>
<p>問:是否近這座大廈?</p>
<p>陳:是。</p>
<p>問:9/11對你的生活有什麼影響?</p>
<p>陳:9/11主要對美國﹑紐約及唐人街都是很不幸的日子,我也身受其害,因為那天以後,我很多工作幾乎沒有了。因為交通﹑戒嚴等,衣廠不開門了,沒有工開,我們沒有收入,受到影響。</p>
<p>問:是否因為封街,貨物不能出入?</p>
<p>陳:是的,貨物不能出入。和人心有問題,變得觀望,幾個禮拜不能開工。</p>
<p>問:那不是說沒有人做工,仍有人訂貨,有人做工,但是因為車不能進來?</p>
<p>陳:是,因為我們是重災區的邊緣,我們受到交通管制。</p>
<p>問:那你們的工廠關閉了多欠?</p>
<p>陳:有兩﹑三個禮拜。</p>
<p> 問:那段時間,你做什麼?</p>
<p>陳:我停了工作。沒有上班。</p>
<p>問:那你的收入如何?</p>
<p>陳:沒有工開,就沒有收入。</p>
<p>問:在這情況下,工會有什麼幫助?</p>
<p>陳:發生9/11這件事之後,全世界,全美國都幫助New Yorker,幫助紐約人,像我們沒有工作,是受害者,那些機構如紅十字會﹑安全線,還有工會,都提供幫忙﹑幫助。例如停了幾禮拜日沒有收入,有些人交不到租,沒有錢買食物,紅十字會首先幫助這些人。</p>
<p>問:陳先生你本人有沒有申請這些救濟金?</p>
<p>陳:我有,因為我是受害者,9/11的受害者。</p>
<p>問:是否因為你的工廠暫時關門?</p>
<p>陳:是暫停營業。</p>
<p>問:那你如何知道,是從新聞得知去機構申請還是其他?</p>
<p>陳:從報張雜誌看到的,報張news(新聞),朋友口中得知,或傳來消息。</p>
<p> 問:你本身去申請了多少個地方?</p>
<p>陳:我申請了9/11安全線,因為9/11安全線對受害者幫助很大。因為我是受害人。</p>
<p>問:雖然你不能住在這一區……,</p>
<p>陳:因為工作在災區的關係。例如,有現金資助,一次。後來又幫助申請醫療保險幾個月。後來舉辦培訓班,有13個禮拜,教授英文及電腦﹑及職業技能。</p>
<p>問:你選擇了那一樣?</p>
<p>陳:英文及電腦都選擇。</p>
<p>問:那你現在的英文水準到那裡?</p>
<p>陳:我會識聽一些英文,電腦我會按幾個鍵。</p>
<p>問:如果你搬到一個沒有華人的城市,你生活將有沒有困難?</p>
<p>陳:以人生經驗來說,第一我不怕。最驚是心裡怕。如果不怕,在困難環境下,有意志,願意拚下去,就可以了。</p>
<p>問:那13個禮拜,你學了英文班及電腦,還有……?</p>
<p>陳:跟著就是學製衣業的技能,好像我這行業是吸衣,我學到新的技術,<br>
如何可以把產品做到最好,如何操作﹑如何運作,增加技考,不再用死方法,使體力透支。</p>
<p>問:但你已經做這行很久,要懂得的你應該已經學會了,那13個禮拜,你仍會學到新東西嗎?</p>
<p>陳:是,那我這麼多年只是日日做工,沒有辦法接觸新資訊。</p>
<p>問:你們的工廠有沒有隔一段時間有training(訓練)?</p>
<p>陳:沒有。</p>
<p>問:只是做,你用的方法10年,15年都不變?</p>
<p>陳:沒有變。這6個禮拜我學到多些東西。</p>
<p>問:這幾年成衣業漸漸出國生產衣褲,你有沒有想過到轉行?</p>
<p>陳:如果轉行,說得不好聽就是歲月不饒人,大年紀不適合,不能從頭做起,我不再是young man(年青人)了。</p>
<p>問:You don’t look old. (你看來不像老。)</p>
<p>(被訪者笑。)</p>
<p>問:那你怕不怕這行業會沒有工作?</p>
<p>陳:我對它很有信心,應該不會沒有工作。</p>
<p> 問:是不是少些但不會完全消失?</p>
<p>陳:就好像食物,不會斷。因為就好像人始終要食,正如服裝一樣,人一定要穿衣服。</p>
<p>問:但是,你的薪金怎樣也不會像中國一樣低?</p>
<p>陳:那是說競爭能力了,我們在紐約的優勢是,我們的出產的衣服比較快,那是中國及東南亞追趕不及的,你同意嗎?</p>
<p>問:即如果order (訂單)不大的,你可以在短時間之內完成,交貨,遠的地方都不能了。</p>
<p>陳:好像商業社會,差一天就差很遠了。</p>
<p>問:回去講那13個禮拜,除了training(訓練)還有什麼津貼?</p>
<p>陳:那13禮拜,我們離開了工作,接受教育,一禮拜要讀35小時,這段時間不能做工,沒有薪金,9/11津貼我們一禮拜有300元。</p>
<p>問:這300元是否少於你在工廠的薪金?</p>
<p>陳:不會,因為……。</p>
<p>問:你不是說70年代你300元一禮拜,現在也是300元一禮拜,你的生活怎麼會足夠?</p>
<p> 陳:因為上課這禮拜不是每天都上課,我利用早上,先做4﹑5小時才上課,我按時間表上課,故此我有300元津貼,另外有少許做工的收入,</p>
<p>問:你都仍然做工,不是完全停工?</p>
<p>陳:是。</p>
<p>問:9/11之後你的工作停頓多久?</p>
<p>陳:有二﹑三個禮拜完全停頓,之後慢慢復甦,就安定了,衣廠的進度慢慢恢復正常,然後有職業培訓班,這種教育。因為9/11很多衣廠關門,因為他們沒有辦法支撐下去。</p>
<p>問:那是因為貨不能進入?</p>
<p>陳:也是因為衣廠必須負擔平日的開支,如租金﹑水電,但又沒有生產,那支持不下去。</p>
<p>問:但你的衣廠就沒有……?</p>
<p>陳:我們老闆及工人之間比較體諒合作,同舟共濟。</p>
<p>問:當時13禮拜的老師是什麼人,中國人,或白人….?</p>
<p>陳:有白人,也有中國人。</p>
<p> 問:都有中國人?</p>
<p>陳:中國老師用中文解釋。好像英文課就用外國人,好像電腦老師是外國人,至少我班的情況如是。</p>
<p>問:那當時你有沒有想到要轉行?有沒有鼓勵你們學新東西轉行?</p>
<p>陳:都有,但他們知道學生的程度達不到,故此沒有提醒我們去轉行。好像電腦班,上了課後只能學得最基本的,所以不能因此而轉行。</p>
<p>問:你的電腦班,學了以後,對你的事業有沒有幫助?</p>
<p>陳:目前來說,我沒有電腦這個需要,工作上沒有需要,這些如電腦學得的知識是私人的。</p>
<p>問:提供13個禮拜的training(訓練)是那一個機構?</p>
<p>陳:23-25工會。</p>
<p>問:是工會自己開班,還是另一個機構負責教授?</p>
<p>陳:好像是CWE(勞工教育聯盟),我覺得那們的機構制度很好,準時上課,學完有考試。因為他們也要知道花了這麼多心血教授是否有效果。</p>
<p> 問:你覺得13個禮拜足夠嗎?要不要繼續讀?</p>
<p>陳:我覺得如不影響工作的話,我想繼續讀,因為人有求知的慾望,追求更好的知識。</p>
<p>問:救濟金取完後,你怎樣?</p>
<p>陳:我返回工作單位,正常做工。</p>
<p>問:你之後一直做,還是少做了?</p>
<p>陳:因為我們工廠有幾十人一起去上課,影響老闆的生產量少了,這13禮拜過後工人替老闆儘量追,我們對公司都有負擔。</p>
<p>問:你現在子女都長大,你會否希望他做你這行呢?</p>
<p>陳:子女已經長大,大學畢業及就業了,他們不是在這行,好像大的女在會計師行做,小的在 Bloomingdale做,我覺得他們都幾好,做管理工作。</p>
<p>問:那你的美國夢或多或少在子女身上也實現了,是嗎?</p>
<p>陳:因為中國人望子成龍,望女成鳳,今日他們都有些成就,我都有些安慰。</p>
<p>問:你想你會做多久才退休?</p>
<p> 陳:好說不好聽,做到不能做才退休。</p>
<p>問:我看你的健康還不錯,是不是?</p>
<p>陳:一個人的身體健康很重要。</p>
<p>問:你在唐人街做事多年,你覺得唐人街幾十年來有什麼改變,除了人多了,馬路闊了,你覺得華人之間及華人社會有什麼改變?</p>
<p>陳:變化很大,告訴你一個笑話,那時候,我剛來的時候從台灣來,那是的華埠人士都講廣東台山話,那時我在街上有人講國語,我會覺得稀奇,抬頭看看他是誰,因為真的很少人講國語。今日你不懂福州話人們就會覺得很奇怪,因為華埠很多福州人。20年的變化很大。</p>
<p>問:你覺得這麼不同的華人在唐人街是否團結?</p>
<p>陳:我感覺到他們有他們的圈子。台山人有台山人的圈子,我覺得和他們交流比較容易。</p>
<p>問:那你覺得你屬於那個圈子,你又不是台山人?</p>
<p>陳:我有自己的朋友,自己的partner(夥伴),我人比較隨和。</p>
<p>問:除了工會,你有沒有參加其他的工會?</p>
<p>陳:社團之類,沒有。</p>
<p>問:為什麼?沒有這需要,或者……?</p>
<p>陳:我不知道,我覺得那是老華僑的圈子,我的感覺是這樣。</p>
<p>問:你不算老,但你在美國很久,你認為自己是……?</p>
<p>陳:我也是老華僑,但我也有自己的圈子。除了工作,我和朋友禮拜日去釣魚,去玩。</p>
<p>問:我們已傾談了很久,陳先生,你覺得我們遺漏了什麼,有關生活﹑工作﹑私人看法……?</p>
<p>陳:我講笑說,我覺得你已經很了解我了。哈哈,</p>
<p>問:哈哈,那我們就停在這裡。</p>
<p>陳:多謝。</p>
<p>問:Thank you!</p>
<p>(完)</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Shi Yun Chin
911DA Item
Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item.
Status
The process status of this item.
approved
Consent
Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item.
unknown
Posting
Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item.
unknown
Copyright
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unknown
Source
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transcription
Media Type
The media type of this item.
interview
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Chris Chan
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-05-24
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
CPC/asthma
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
Today is May 24<sup>th</sup>. I’m sitting here with Chris Chan
of Chinese Progressive Association, otherwise known as CPA here on 83
Canal Street. We will talk more about the asthma-related work that
CPA has done the last couple of years, but first we want to get to
know you, who you are. Chris, tell us a little bit about where you’re
from.
</p>
<p>Chan:
Actually, I’m from Hong Kong, via Macau.
</p>
<p>Q:
In Macau?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, I was born in China, but I moved to Macau when I was 2 years
old. I grew up in Macau. After high school, I went to Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>Q:
Ok. Where in China are you from and why did your family move to
Macau?</p>
<p>Chan:
I’m not quite sure, but I think after the Communist took over
China, my parents wanted to leave that environment. They found a way
and went to Macau. I grew up in Macau and spent my childhood in
Macau.</p>
<p>Q:
So this is the 60s, the 70s, what era are we talking about?</p>
<p>Chan:
(laugher) Yeah, probably around 1960, early 1970. After high school,
I found a job in Hong Kong, then I moved to Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>Q:
In Macau, did you go to a bilingual school? Did you study Portuguese?
</p>
<p>
Chan: It was not a bilingual school, but a normal school,
which was Chinese. When I was in the 10<sup>th</sup> and 11<sup>th</sup>
grade, our school started having Portuguese lessons as one subject.
So I did have a chance to learn some Portuguese.</p>
<p>Q:
What was your childhood in a Portuguese colony like? So you have no
impression of China, obviously since you left so young?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, because Macau and China are really close, I do know what’s
going on in China. The memory I still have of childhood: I remember
everybody would send something back to China…</p>
<p>Q:
Money?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, money or goods, or they would physically bring something back
China for their relatives or families. That’s very common for
that period.</p>
<p>Q:
After high school, you got a job in Hong Kong as what?</p>
<p>Chan:
As a construction worker (laughter). In Macau, that many businesses.
The main business in China is casinos.</p>
<p>Q:
In Macau?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, even now, it’s still casinos. Besides that, there’s
not much else you can do. So, after I graduated from high school, it
was hard to find a job. Then, I had a chance to go to Hong Kong. Any
job that I can find, I’d love to do it. Finally, I got a job in
the construction field.</p>
<p>Q:
You mean manual labor kind of construction, as in building?
</p>
<p>
Chan: Yeah, building. Hong Kong has lots of high rise
buildings. At that time, the real estate was a really booming
business. So it was easy to find a job.</p>
<p>Q:
This was in the 80s?
</p>
<p>Chan:
This was around late 70s to early 80s.
</p>
<p>Q:
So the real estate was really booming in Hong Kong at that time?
</p>
<p>Chan:
Right. Right. To be a construction worker, even if you don’t
have the skills, they’ll hire you and train you at the work
site. Learn it and practice it.
</p>
<p>Q:
In Hong Kong, why did you decide to come to America? When did you
decide to come to America?
</p>
<p>Chan:
In 1984. 1984, April.</p>
<p>Q:
What made you decide to come to America?</p>
<p>Chan:
I had a chance to come. My sister was already here. She was married
and was able to apply for us to come.</p>
<p>Q:
So your sister sponsored you to come to America?</p>
<p>Chan:
Right. Before that, she came here to study college. After that, she
got married and got citizenship and she sponsored us to come.</p>
<p>Q:
How old were you when you came?</p>
<p>Chan:
I was born in 1957. So in 1984….27? Yeah, 27.</p>
<p>
Q: So already with work experience in Hong Kong and a little
bit of English. Some English skills from Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>Chan:
(laughter) uh, not quite.</p>
<p>Q:
Not quite (laughter)?</p>
<p>Chan:
Because in Hong Kong, I just worked and also it’s predominantly
Chinese. Most people speak Chinese. Of course in Hong Kong, English
is very common, but working in the lower level, most people speak
Chinese. Only a few words in English and not correct pronunciation.
For me, I would consider it as no English at all. I did have
difficulty when I first came here, for a period.
</p>
<p>Q:
So you came straight to New York, ‘cause you already had a
sister here?</p>
<p>Chan:
Right.</p>
<p>Q:
What was your impression of New York City?<br><br>Chan: Um…because
my sister lived in Queens. My first impression was that New York is
not a modern city (laugher). Compared to Hong Kong where there’s
a lot of modern building and high rises. Here, it’s all
concrete buildings. Queens is almost like a suburb. And back at that
time, in my area, the tallest building was six stories high
(laughter).</p>
<p>Q:
What area of Queens was this?</p>
<p>Chan:
Kew Gardens.</p>
<p>Chan:
It was not what I know of New York City. But of course once I visited
Manhattan, it’s different. I didn’t know Manhattan that
well, because three days after I landed in New York, I found a job in
Chinatown (laughter). So I just deal with my daily life in
Chinatown. I didn’t have a chance to see the
real face of Manhattan. Everyday, I just traveled from Kew Garden to
Manhattan and go back home. That’s all.</p>
<p>Q:
What did you think you were going to do once you got to America?</p>
<p>Chan:
I didn’t have any plans. I just needed to find a job because I
needed to survive. In my pocket, I had only $60 (laughter) when I
came to New York. The next day, my sister showed me how to go to
Chinatown. I bought a newspaper and started calling. I was really
lucky. Three days later, I found a construction job in Chinatown to
do renovation.
</p>
<p>Q:
Is it similar to the sky scrappers you worked on in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Chan:
Not quite. Because the wall is (sheet?) rock, it’s not cement.
The structure is different, but it’s okay. I feel it’s
easier for me to work. It’s just a little different than in
Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Q:
So you worked for Chinese people when you came?
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
And you didn’t have to use English too much.</p>
<p>Chan:
No, not at all. I still remember…ah…once around my
house, I walked on the street and there were some Americans on that
side, I was so really afraid that I walked on the other side
(laughter).</p>
<p>Q:
To the other side of the street?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, I was afraid to face those people. To ‘hi’ or
whatever. Yeah, back at that time, I was afraid. But after about one
and a half years in Chinatown, I felt that I needed to break the
wall. If I decide to stay in America, I really need to learn English.
I started to
find
those ESL classes to participate. Back at that time, I didn’t
know there were any free classes, that the community provides free
English classes. So I just go to those paid ESL classes. I started at
the grass stage, like ABC.
</p>
<p>Q:
Very basic.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, very basic. But back at that time. I still didn’t know
where would provide those courses. Seems like none. When I went to
join those classes, it was pretty advance for me. No bilingual
teacher and I don’t know what’s going on, what they’re
talking about (laughter). I still remember the first class I went to,
three days later, I just dropped out. I totally did not know what’s
going on. I can’t follow it. I tried to watch the news on TV,
listen to the radio. Pick it up little by little. Once it hit me to
really make my decision to spend time in English, it was two years
later after I worked in Chinatown, after the payday, I really wanted
to treat my brother to McDonald’s for a meal in midtown. But
when I went there, I can’t order (laughter). They didn’t
know what I’m talking about and I wanted to….</p>
<p>Q:
This is two years after you arrived in America?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, I wanted to order a Big Mac and french fries. I kept saying
‘potato chips’ and they said ‘we don’t have
it.’ Later on, we just went back to Chinatown and had dinner.
After that, I really think how I can live in America for two years
and I can’t go to McDonald’s to have my meal? That’s
a real shame for myself. It really gave me great encourage to find
ways to learn English.
</p>
<p>Q:
So two years into living in New York City and you cannot order a Big
Mac and french fried meal at McDonald’s and you felt very bad….</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, very bad.</p>
<p>Q:
And you decided to study, I mean really study English.
</p>
<p>Chan:
I spent time from class to class, school to school, read newspapers.
And some friends introduce me to where there are classes and if it
fits into my schedule, I go. It took me a long time to overcome.
</p>
<p>Q:
So you were still working as a construction worker in Chinatown
during all this time?
</p>
<p>Chan:
No, after I decided to learn English, I quit my job and found a
warehouse job in midtown with an American company. I tried to get out
of the Chinese community and tried to force myself into an English
environment to pick up English.
</p>
<p>Q:
What did you do at this warehouse?</p>
<p>Chan:
It was a fabric warehouse. Textile. They had different designers in
their company and make those textiles and they will print and ship it
to the warehouse. The other companies would go there to get the
materials. My job was to cut the textile to them, how many yards they
need and keep the records. A lot of tons of different designs,
pattern by pattern.</p>
<p>Q:
Did that job force you to speak English?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. Yes. It was getting better. Later on, I changed a few times. But
still, I finally came back to construction. I was familiar with
that.</p>
<p>Q:
The first time you came to Chinatown, those first two years, what was
your impression of Chinatown?
</p>
<p>Chan:
Chinatown, at that time for me, was an enclosed separate area from
outside. That’s what I feel. In Chinatown, you don’t need
to speak any English. You can survive purely in Chinese. You can make
your living and everything just speaking Chinese. At that time, I
thought Chinatown was pretty old. The stores and restaurant, the food
that was served
was
in old style. And the products sold in Chinatown were old in style
too. In Hong Kong, you will see new things. In Hong Kong, it’s
different, there’s lots of new products from different
countries are flown in Hong Kong to test the market. In Chinatown,
the feeling is like back in the 16<sup>th</sup> century!</p>
<p>Q:
Very far behind Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, right.</p>
<p>Q:
You felt comfortable in Chinatown?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. People are friendly. A lot of Chinese are willing to help each
other. That’s how I felt.</p>
<p>Q:
You didn’t know anyone here besides your sister?</p>
<p>Chan:
No. I did join a church in Chinatown (laugher). So I very quickly
established some friendship in the church.</p>
<p>Q:
How long did you work in the warehouse before you found your way to
CPA?</p>
<p>Chan:
The warehouse I only worked for about a year, then I switched to
another job. I had a chance to find another job as an architect,
prospective drawing. It was a Taiwanese company. They needed an
assistant to draw the prospectives. I loved drawing ever since I was
in Macau. I learned how to do it at that company. I spent one and a
half year at that company. Later on, I had another chance to work in
a development company as a construction development. A lot of Chinese
people will buy houses, knock it down and build 3, 6 story buildings.
I had a chance to work there. Later on, I started my own business as
a construction company. In 1999, since real estate was not that
active, I closed my company and went back to school.</p>
<p>
Q: At what point did you become active at CPA?</p>
<p>Chan:
Since 1989, the June 4<sup>th</sup> event after that. Not long after
that, I went to City College. The first college I went was LaGuardia
College. Since I was back in school and closed my company, I needed a
part time job. Somebody told me that CPA had an opening for a
community organizer and I just sent in my resume and started working
at CPA in 1992.
</p>
<p>Q:
Before that, did you participate in any community activity at all?
</p>
<p>Chan:
I was active in the church. It was not exactly community work, but
helping church members. Back to the June 4<sup>th</sup> event, I was
really active in those and had a chance to know about different
organizations. I started getting more interested and know more about
community services. So I (became) interested in this direction.
</p>
<p>Q:
So this is really different from construction work.</p>
<p>Chan:
Really different (chuckles). Totally different. I work in CPA, I love
it. After I graduated in college—my major is art and computer
graphics.
</p>
<p>Q:
What do you like about working at CPA?
</p>
<p>Chan:
CPA as a grassroots organization provides direct service to the
community. It gives me a chance to really see the community and also
understand their issues, problems. We can get hands-on experience on
how to help them. You can see the results, how your work can reshape
the community. That’s gives me a deep impact.
</p>
<p>Q:
What are some of the services that CPA offers to the community?</p>
<p>Chan:
CPA has a number of services to the community. First is immigration
rights. We have a citizenship program to help people who qualify or
want to know about citizenship and procedure. We handle cases and do
the follow up too. We provide English classes,
citizen class. We do handle cases and also educate
them about how and what they can do. Besides that, CPA is concerned
with environmental issues. The Chinatown area has a lot of
environmental problems, so CPA is really concerned about that and
educate the community. For example, we’re concerned about lead
poisoning for those old buildings. Chinatown has a lot of old
buildings. Chinese people do not understand this issue, but this one
you can protect if you know what’s going on. You can protect
yourself. You won’t get hurt. Also the asthma issue and
smoking. Smoking in the Chinese community is really popular. Youth
smokers are increasing. We try to stress this in the community,
especially the teenagers about smoking and second smoke.</p>
<p>Q:
Let’s talk about one of the studies you did you, I think in
2001?</p>
<p>Chan:
2002.</p>
<p>Q:
2002, you surveyed 580 people?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q: In the
Chinatown area. Tell us about that study. And where exactly were the
borders? What areas did you survey?</p>
<p>Chan:
Since 1996, EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) released a report
for diesel population in the Manhattan area. The report indicates
that Canal Street is one of the higher polluted streets in the city.
We think this is a really serious issue. We also know that CPA
members and friends have asthma issues. That’s why CPA wants to
find out more about the asthma issue in Chinatown area. Before that,
we did some report, and got the statistics from DOH. The statistics
show that the Chinatown area asthma situation for children is very
low…</p>
<p lang="en-US" class="western" style="line-height: 150%">Q: Very
low?</p>
<p>
Chan: yes, very low. Of course this is the hospitalized
rate. They get the data based on who has asthma attacks and has
stayed in hospital overnight and they got this data. In Chinese
community, not that many people would go to the hospital and would
stay overnight.
</p>
<p>Q:
Where did you get this statistic?</p>
<p>Chan:
DOH. Department of Health. We feel that this only shows a part of the
situation. Also after 911, pollution is even worse. That’s why
we have decided to do the asthma survey to find out the real face in
the Chinatown area. We grouped a lot of volunteers together and
researched the survey. We went out on the streets, in the park,
library, and different places in the Chinatown area to do the survey.
Some surveys, we can’t count it because some people that we
interviewed were not living in the Chinatown area. Some of the
surveys we can’t use it. Finally, we surveyed 580 families all
over the Chinatown area, not in any one specific area. We found out
that we saw a surprise. According to statistics, (in a) five family
household, already has at least one member with asthma in the
household.</p>
<p>Q:
How did you conduct the survey? Is it just randomly asking people on
the street in different public places? Did you give people a
breathing test? What did you do exactly?</p>
<p>Chan:
Random pick….</p>
<p>Q:
Of questionnaires?
</p>
<p>Chan:
We spent about three months up setting up the questionnaires.</p>
<p>Q:
Give me a sample of a few questions that were on this. How do you
determine if someone has asthma or not?
</p>
<p>
Chan: In our survey, first we ask them where does the person
live? Also, do you have a breathing problem? Do they diagnosis asthma
by a doctor and when? We ask such questions.
</p>
<p>Q:
Is your study carried out in the same or similar way that EPA does
that when they came out with the statistic that Chinatown is more
polluted than other areas in New York City. How did they get that
information? Is there a similar method that you both use? Do you know
how they do it?</p>
<p>Chan:
I forgot. When we set up the questionnaire, we got the example from,
I think, the DOH and the EPA, those example.
</p>
<p>Q:
You modified it?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, we modified it. Mount Sinai Hospital also conducted their own
research too. We got the different ways and compared them and set up
our own sample.
</p>
<p>Q:
There are lots of non profit organizations in Chinatown, why did CPA
stand out and do this?</p>
<p>Chan:
Actually I don’t know why, but it seems in the Chinatown area,
we all should be concerned with environmental issue, but maybe
because of funding or not that many people feel that it’s a
serious issue because asthma, lead poisoning, and smoking does not
have immediate effects on health. They have long term effect, not
immediate. We know that these are serious issues, and we also know
that asthma, lead poisoning and smoking can be controlled. If you
know what’s going on, you can project yourself.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you make a point of studying people of all different ages? You
said that 580 families were surveyed, from elders to kids?</p>
<p>
Chan: Right. If the kids were under 16 years old, we’d
leave them out of the survey. The survey is for 16 and up. We went to
the senior centers also to conduct survey the elders. During the
survey process, we found out that not that many people understand the
asthma issue, especially the elders. Most elders have the concept
that asthma is a children’s problems. “Don’t worry
about it. You don’t need to do anything. If they grow up, the
asthma will be automatically gone.” Something along those
lines. They think if you have asthma, just do some sports, jogging,
run, or swim, make your body stronger and the asthma will be gone.
That kind of concept. Most of them also believe that over-the-counter
medicine can cure asthma if you take it consistently over a period of
time, it will be gone.</p>
<p>Q:
So it sounds there are two things here that your study shows: one is
the environmental factors within Chinatown, the air quality itself…</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
Secondly, it’s asthma and those two things are related. But for
example, you mentioned elders. I imagine that because a lot of them
come from China, where smoking is very a normal habit for men. And
depending on where they live, if they live near a factory or in a big
city like Guangzhou where the pollution is very bad, a lot of these
people may have come with already a foundation for asthma, you cannot
really show that they got asthma in Chinatown. Do you understand what
I’m asking? How much of the problem is created here in
Chinatown and how much is carried over from say China and personal
health?</p>
<p>Chan:
That’s a good question actually (laughter). In our statistic,
51.1% of asthma sufferers are teenagers. As a whole, asthma patients
are 1/3 of their diagnosis of asthma is since they moved into the
Chinatown area. That means that before they came to the U.S., before
they came to New York, they did not diagnosis anything, but since
they moved into Chinatown, especially after 911, they have breathing
problems. Those symptoms came up more serious. It might be as you
said, carried over from their homeland. But the
facts have shown us that after September 11, the
whole is getting worse. That’s the facts we saw.</p>
<p>Q:
The last study that was done before 911 was in 1996 by EPA?<br><br>
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. But that one only showed diesel pollution. It’s not the
whole thing, the air quality. But after September 11, I’d like
to say it’s a really serious issue. I work in Chinatown. That
day, I was in Chinatown. After that, I didn’t come to Chinatown
for just one day. I continued to come to Chinatown everyday. I still
remember I can smell the smell from the air even after Thanksgiving.</p>
<p>Q:
So we’re talking about two months.</p>
<p>Chan:
The first two, three weeks was terrible. Even with closed windows,
everywhere, there was strong, weird smell in the air.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you remember if the EPA did any studies, pollution studies, at
that time in Chinatown as a direct result of September 11 being so
near…the World Trade Center being so near Chinatown?</p>
<p>Chan:
I heard, but I’m not sure if I remember. Yes, they did, but not
in the Chinatown area. Also, after 911, people were only concerned
with Chinatown from the south of Canal Street. I feel this is really
funny (laughter) because what’s the difference with this
boundary, the air is free flow. Actually, our office location is
north of Canal. But still I can smell it everyday.</p>
<p>Q:
So because you are by location, north of Canal, were you eligible for
air filters or any of the 911 fundings?
</p>
<p>Chan:
No. No (laughter).</p>
<p>
Q: So CPA as an organization, because of your location, did
not get any 911 money?</p>
<p>Chan:
No. No.</p>
<p>Q:
Then how did you fund the asthma study?</p>
<p>Chan:
I forgot the fund, but it’s a very small grant.</p>
<p>Q:
So it was a private grant?</p>
<p>Chan:
I think it was a private grant. CPA is mostly funded by private
foundations. Government funds, we did not get that much because we
are not a big organization even though we do a lot of quality work
for the community. Since the budget cut from the government, we
really have a hard time getting funding. We have funding for an
English class right now that provides free English class. But this
funding is not a 911 funding. It was from before. CPA did not get 911
funding for job training, English classes…</p>
<p>Q:
The technical boundaries for the area that is considered Chinatown
that is eligible for air filters and fundings and all that is between
Canal and Pike? Is that what it is?
</p>
<p>Chan:
In that area and below. As for filters, later on, if you’re
eligible, you can get it at home.</p>
<p>Q:
Regardless of where you are?</p>
<p>Chan:
As long as you got affected by the air. I know that a lot of people
who live in Brooklyn’s Sunset part area also got it.
</p>
<p>Q:
(interruption)…Chinatown was just polluted because of the
traffic. We have the Manhattan Bridge, not so far the Brooklyn
Bridge. It’s just a lot of traffic congestion in
this area. Diesel pollution, you were talking about
earlier. So Chinatown was already bad long before 911. Has the EPA or
any other environmental organizations do anything to clean up the air
here? What to your knowledge has been done to address this problem?</p>
<p>Chan:
From what I know, right now the government is not doing that much in
the Chinatown area. Right now, it’s getting worse because of
911 effected the air quality and the tour buses. These private
companies have tour buses that go to Boston, Washington,
Philadelphia…</p>
<p>Q:
On East Broadway?</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, on East Broadway. And the casino buses on Bowery. The big tucks
and big buses. Also, the bridge has non-stop construction. A lot of
repairs on Canal Street. Constructions, tour buses, diesel trucks
still go through the Manhattan Bridge….</p>
<p>Q:
So all these things have nothing to do with 911? These things are
just in Chinatown already?</p>
<p>Chan:
It’s just getting worse. After 911, it’s just like
coincidence. Just the whole Chinatown area is getting worse, the air
quality. Getting worse and worse.</p>
<p>Q:
When you did the study, it was over how long of a period?</p>
<p>Chan:
We conducted in 2002 Spring and had the final results in 2002 August.
</p>
<p>Q:
So just in 6 months? Did you go back to the same families? How did
you collect the information?
</p>
<p>Chan:
We didn’t do that much follow up because of manpower and we
don’t have any money to do the follow up job. Right now, we’re
developing an asthma project this is on-
going in the Chinatown community. CPA has plans to do
this better. The first thing is to do more education. Second thing is
to improve the environment. The third thing is air quality
monitoring. In these three directions, we’re working on. Right
now, we’re applying for some grants and see if we can have
funding to do it. It would be in these three directions.
</p>
<p>Q:
Education meaning educating the community, to let the residents and
business, people who work and live here know what’s going on in
their environment. So with the results of this study, what have you
done with it? How is that used towards getting more attention or
meetings with councilmen? How are you approaching on a government
level so that changes can be made to address these problems?
</p>
<p>Chan:
On a government level, we’d like to see improvement of the
environment. We just had some brainstorming. For example, this
summer, we worked with other groups, we’d like to make a video
documentary to give a rough idea of the Chinatown area air pollution.
We work with a group of teenagers, give them training about this
issue and what idea they come up with. We hope the 10 minute
documentary tape is a tour in the Chinatown area to address those
environmental issues. We also have another idea, we haven’t got
a concrete idea because we have a core group to develop that. Another
idea is tree count in the Chinatown area and compare that with
environmentally healthy communities, things like how much green
areas. If we got this done, the second step is we’d send it to
the councilmen.</p>
<p>Q:
In your study, it was mainly for asthma. You didn’t do
environmental study in terms of what is in the air besides diesel
after 911?</p>
<p>Chan:
The air monitoring actually we’re getting information. We’ve
already contacted field organizations that’s doing the
monitoring. But it really involves technical stuff and professionals.
We have ideas to work with some university professors and Phd
projects to see if they have interest in finding out the air quality
in the Chinatown area. But we
definitely know that is not enough. That only one
monitoring station on top of the post office.</p>
<p>Q:
That’s what we have right now?
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, right now, that’s all we have. The street levels don’t
have it. We’re going to do more research and see which groups
are interested to do street level air quality.</p>
<p>Q:
Seems to me that there are two ways, if any changes is going to come
out of this. Things like traffic, and all that, that’s the city
government level. But things like the tour buses, that’s a
Chinese business community level. That’s not the government
saying you have to park there. That’s business people who are
Chinese. So do you make any efforts to approach those groups and say
maybe they have to park their buses somewhere else, cause they are
also contributing to the air quality problem in Chinatown.</p>
<p>Chan:
Definitely. After we get more job done, we’d like to contact
them, those business organizations and see what they can help to
improve that. As for the government level, maybe after more study, we
may have suggestions on which streets should turn into a one way.
Those diesel trucks should detour and not go directly through Canal.
But we need to do more work before we can say that.
</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think those business people are going to care? Those tour bus
company on East Broadway and those casino buses, do you think they
will care that in some way they’re contributing to the
pollution problem in Chinatown? Or they care just about the business?
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, they do care about the business. But if we can find a better
solution to accomplish their business and also care about the
environment, that will help the tours and the community business
also. It must have some mutual benefits. But if nobody see or find
this mutual area, of course the situation won’t change a bit.
If we spend time and research to find this mutually benefit area, it
might happen.</p>
<p>Q:
After talking to many people in the Chinatown community, I always get
the feeling that they feel the government level, the city level, is
not paying enough attention to Chinatown, especially after 911. But
it also seems to me that the community is not really looking after
itself in many ways.
</p>
<p>Chan:
In my personal opinion, those business organizations, they work their
own. Or they’re only concerned with how to make the business
grow instead of environment. But they do know that the bad smell,
especially in the summer, everybody knows that that is a bad thing
for tourism. I’d like to point out that our neighbor across one
street, Little Italy, they have restaurants next to each other on the
whole street, but they don’t have that smell. What did they do?
How come they can do that? If we can improve it…</p>
<p>Q:
Are you saying that Italian restaurant owners, maybe they work
together better in some way than the Chinese?</p>
<p>Chan:
I don’t know. I think somebody else should do some research.
How do they handle the garbage? How do they keep the streets clean?
How do they run their business without that bad smell (laughter)?
After we study it, then we can see if Chinatown can adopt it. Can
Chinatown do that? I think they will see that it’s good for
them that if they put a little extra effort, or pay a little more
attention, they can make the environment (better) and get rid of that
smell. I think they’d do that because that deals with the
business issue. If the front door is clean and has no smell, of
course more people would come.
</p>
<p>(Tape
change. Interruption)</p>
<p>Q: You were
saying that you were impressed with how Little Italy, who is on the
same streets, Mulberry and Mott, just one block over, manages to not
have the same smell that Chinatown does (laughter). I’m going
to ask you something that sounds almost unethical, do you think
Chinese people take pride in their environment? Because if you look
at China, would you say that Chinatown is in some way a smaller
scale, a small replica of
China, of the way people live? Of the way people do
business? The way people interact with each other? Walking through
the streets, I see that many vendors have no problem just pouring
everything onto the streets. Just dumping everything, all the trash
onto the street. In many ways, do Chinese really look after their
environment?
</p>
<p>Chan: I’d
like to say that they don’t have such concepts. That’s
why we need to educate them. I think the Chinese people, the
character, they don’t like to be dirty. But they don’t
know what to do. No body can set up a model for them. I’d like
to pick Hong Kong as a model. I remember, back in the 60s, there was
a lot of garbage on the streets. But the government had a movement
that encouraged people to keep the streets clean. They even created a
cartoon character, a garbage bug. Then the city changed. Then people
know that that’s good. In Chinatown, no body takes action, ring
up the bell and take this issue seriously.
</p>
<p>Q:
You think education is one part, that they don’t understand the
impact their actions can have on the environment, on the pollution.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. They don’t have the plans to tell them what to do. Not
only to educate them about the concept of keeping the environment
clean is good for them, but what to do and how do it. Personally,
I’ve been wondering, just across the street, Little Italy is a
totally different area. We can spend time and study and see how
Chinatown can adopt it or find a better way to do it.
</p>
<p>Q:
Is there any dialogue with the Little Italy community to see how they
keep things cleaner?</p>
<p>Chan:
I didn’t work in this field, so I don’t know personally.
But I do know there are groups who are really concerned about the
environment, not only us, like Clean Up Chinatown. They formed this
group as a special concern group of street cleaning in Chinatown.
Probably they would better than me.</p>
<p>
Q: I think I read in your studies that one of the causes is
cockroaches.
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
As we know, Chinatown has a lot of restaurants and lots of homes
above restaurants and it’s impossible to keep those buildings
cockroach free whenever you have restaurants below. Do you think
there’s a connection between the number of asthma sufferers in
Chinatown and the fact that so much of Chinatown relies of restaurant
business?</p>
<p>Chan:
I don’t know. I won’t say that it’s related because
the trigger for each asthma patient may be different. It’s not
only the cockroaches that trigger or smell. Sometimes, it may be
smoking. Sometimes maybe perfumes. No matter what, I would like to
say that it contributes to the pollution in the environment. Also
this one can be controlled and can be changed.
</p>
<p>Q:
Cockroaches can be controlled? Is that what you mean?</p>
<p>Chan:
No, the whole. Yep. Even the cockroaches can be, to a certain extent
(laughter). They just need to pay a little more attention. It’s
possible to do it.</p>
<p>Q:
You said in your survey that you found one out of five people….</p>
<p>Chan:
Households. One out of five households.
</p>
<p>Q:
Or one person out of five household?
</p>
<p>Chan:
No. Five families has one family.</p>
<p>Q:
One family out of five.</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes, at least in the household has one who suffers from asthma.</p>
<p>Q:
And this is much higher than what the Department of Health defines as
asthma sufferer, which is someone who has been hospitalized
overnight. You’re saying that a lot of Chinese people suffer
from asthma, but they don’t spend time in a hospital.
</p>
<p>Chan:
Because Chinese has the habit of relying on over-the-counter
medicines, which are imported from China.</p>
<p>Q:
Or maybe herbal medicine?<br><br>
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yeah, maybe herbal medicine. In those Chinese drugstores, you can
find different medicine for head to toe. It would cover your whole
body (laughter). Even if you lost your hair, take this one, or
whatever. You name it, they have it. Whether it works or not, it’s
hard to say. Most Chinese would take them. That’s a habit
dating back to China. If they have a problem, the first thing is they
would go to the drugstore, instead of going to a doctor. They go to
the drugstore to find modern or herbal medicine to cure that part of
the problem, and if that doesn’t work, then try another few
things. If afterwards, they keep getting worse and worse, then they
have no choice but to go to the doctor. So the doctor for them is not
a priority. The priority is those over-the-counter medicine.</p>
<p>Q:
There is a perception then for Chinese people that asthma is not as
serious as it is. Something that they think will just go away when
they get older.
</p>
<p>Chan:
Yes. So they don’t treat asthma as a serious issue, like
smoking. Everybody smokes, what’s the big deal? Why make it
sound like a monster? We need to change the concept. We also work on
smoking. Most people don’t know that just one cigarette
contains how many substances. If they know that it contains over
4,000 chemicals that would harm their body, I think they would deeply
think would they want to pick up a cigarette and light it up? They
don’t have a chance to know. That’s why we take education
as a first step.</p>
<p>Q:
To your knowledge, does the EPA or other agencies, conducting air
quality or air pollution studies in Chinatown on a continuous basis
to see if after September 11 rally has introduced some new unknown
elements in the air in this area?
</p>
<p>Chan:
From my memory, I don’t know. The EPA did a study on air
quality, but they did not release any data.
</p>
<p>Q:
Aside from CPA, which is a small organization, aside from what you’re
doing on your own, what else do you think, what can the EPA do
better? What can other organizations do to address this problem? This
is a major problem in this area that I think requires a lot of groups
working together to deal with it, from the traffic to cleaning….a
whole lot of things combined.
</p>
<p>Chan:
CPA is taking steps to work with other groups. Hopefully this
connection will grow. Get more organizations involved, interested in
this area and issues. CPA does not work on our own, but we try to
cooperate with other organizations. For example, CPA worked with six
different hospitals, work together and let them know about the
concerns of Chinatown. We’d also like to work with bigger
groups, like the coalitions, see if they’re interested and help
on it.
</p>
<p>Q:
It would be interesting now, over two years later since 911, to be
able to track and see if…well, we know the air quality has
certainly gotten worse since 911, but you really don’t have a
clear idea whether there’s a lot more asthma victims or what
other potential health issues could result from the collapse of the
World Trade Center.
</p>
<p>Chan:
So far, no. We do a lot of work, but because we’re small in
manpower, the whole picture is still a fog. In order to get a clear
picture, we need to get more organizations involved. That’s
what we hope and are working on.
</p>
<p>
Q: How aware do you think or how concerned is the average
Chinese person in Chinatown about all of this? If you’re a new
immigrant, you come to America or New York, most likely you’ll
come to Chinatown, probably for work or something else. Do you think
they think “Ah, the air is bad there, maybe I shouldn’t
live there?” Do you think that crosses an average Chinese
person’s mind?
</p>
<p>Chan:
No. Our location is on Canal and close to East Broadway, that’s
where a lot of new immigrants, like the Fujianese, live. We work with
a lot of Fujianese, documented and undocumented. The first thing in
their mind is totally not environmental issue. They need to struggle
for their living, so the first thing is to make money. How to settle
down, get a better life. A very common issue is they send their kids
back to the homeland in China in order for the mother to be able to
work. That’s a very sad story. Their main concern is how to
make money and how to make more money (laughter). There’s a lot
of sad stories. The environmental problems do not cross their mind,
but it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t tell them. We try
our best, through different channels, to educate them. At least how
to protect themselves in their daily lives.
</p>
<p>Q:
Give us a few examples of how people here can protect themselves.
One, obviously is to not smoke.</p>
<p>Chan:
For example, they didn’t know that smoking is that harmful and
second hand smoke too. They don’t have such concept, because in
China, it’s not a big deal. Everybody does it, at home or
whatever. So we tell them the real situation. We ask them if they
really need to smoke, if they do, then at least leave the room. If
they (smokers) can’t, then you leave the room. Also, lead
poisoning, especially in old buildings, they should know don’t
open the fire escape windows. The window shields, peeling paints, you
should pay more attention. The cockroach problems that you mentioned
before, they just need to pay a little more attention. The two
bridges in Chinatown, Manhattan and Williamsburg, have heavy lead
dust in that area. People who live around that area should pay more
attention. Don’t open the window. Use air filters or air
conditioning at home.</p>
<p>
Q: It sounds like you have a lot more work to do. First step
is you need to get funding to continue the studies. Then once you
have all the results, you’re hoping to connect with various
groups within Chinatown, as well as city and government levels.</p>
<p>Chan:
Right now, CPA is a member for different mainstream coalitions. For
example, New York Immigration Coalitions, Asian American Federations,
and New York Stop Smoking Coalitions. We’d like to bring the
different groups together and hopefully in the future solve the
problems in the Chinatown area.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay, it sounds like you have a lot of work ahead of you (laughter).
I wish you much luck with all of that.</p>
<p>Chan:
Actually, it’s not just me doing it or CPA doing it. CPA has a
lot of volunteers. I’d like to give a high credit to those
volunteers, from the English class, to the citizenship class, to the
environmental issues. Every time, those volunteer contribute their
time, they really care about the community, they work together and
get the job done.
</p>
<p>Q:
We’ll talk about one last thing. There been various hearings
about the system of the streets set up by the EPA, if you’re
above Canal Street, you don’t get certain aides. Can you just
give me an idea if this is a silly idea? It obviously doesn’t
work to section off areas that way.</p>
<p>Chan:
Right, definitely. EPA right now is very good with providing free
home testings for those effected by 911 to check their homes’
air quality. But it’s not enough. As you said, it’s only
below Canal Street. It cuts Chinatown in half.</p>
<p>Q:
And air flows everywhere (laughter).</p>
<p>Chan:
Right. It’s good, but not enough. Personally, I feel more. Not
more free home tests. It’s like taking aspirin for a headache.
It doesn’t really treat the main source. The main thing is
outside, the air quality. I hope EPA thinks more about the outside
quality. How to improve
the area. The Chinatown area is largest residential area close to
Ground Zero. Not only Chinese live in this area, but mixed people.
The residents who live in this area is the frontier victims from 911.
Those funding should be more concerned about this area or do more.
But how to do and what to do, I think they should study more. Like
some streets can be blocked totally for walking. No commercial
traffic in residential area. I think this may help the pollution. The
whole traffic system can be re-planned in the Chinatown area. Right
now, the population is growing. No matter what, they should do more
study and find a better solution for this area.
</p>
<p>Q:
It’s going to be very challenging I’m sure ‘cause
all these problems did not happen over night. It’ll take a lot
of efforts from a lot of organizations to make some good and
permanent changes. I thank you and CPA for taking an active role and
getting people to be more educated and doing your part. Thank you
personally for your time and CPA for the work that you’re
doing. Is there anything else you’d like to add that we have
not talked about?</p>
<p>Chan:
No. No (light laugher).</p>
<p>Q:
Thank you very much. My name is Lan Trinh.</p>
<p>[end
of session]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:今天是5月24日。我與Chris Chan在Canal街83號中國進步協會(Chinese Progressive Association),即CPA。待會兒,我們要進一步談一下近幾年來CPA在哮喘病方面所做的工作,但首先我們想瞭解一下你本人的情況。Chris,請跟我們講一下你是從哪里來的。</p>
<p>陳:實際上,我來自香港,和澳門。</p>
<p>問:澳門?</p>
<p>陳:是的,我出生在中國,但在我2歲的時候,我隨家人移居到澳門。我在澳門長大。在那裏上完高中之後,我去了香港。</p>
<p>問:好的。你來自中國哪里?爲什么你家人要搬去澳門?</p>
<p>陳:我不是非常清楚,但我想在共產黨佔領中國之後,我父母想要離開那個環境。他們就想辦法去了澳門。我在澳門長大,並在那裏度過了我的童年。</p>
<p>問:六、七十年代,那大約是什麽時代的事情?</p>
<p>陳:(笑)是的,大概在1960年左右,1970年初。高中畢業之後,我在香港找到一份工作,於是就去了香港。</p>
<p>問:你在澳門有沒有上雙語學校?你有沒有學葡萄牙語?</p>
<p> 陳:我去的不是雙語學校,只是普通的學校,中文學校。在我上到10年級、11年級的時候,我們學校開設了葡萄牙語課。因此,我確實有機會學了些葡萄牙語。</p>
<p>問:你在葡萄牙殖民地的童年是什么樣子的?顯然,你對中國沒有絲毫印象,因爲你離開的時候還很小?</p>
<p>陳:因爲澳門和中國非常近,我確實知道中國發生的事情。我仍然有些童年的記憶:我記得大家都把一些東西寄回到中國。</p>
<p>問:錢?</p>
<p>陳:是的,錢和物品,或者他們會自己帶一些東西回中國給他們的親戚或家人,這在那個時期很普遍。</p>
<p>問:高中畢業之後,你在香港找到一份什麽樣的工作?</p>
<p>陳:建築工人(笑聲)。澳門有很多生意。在中國最主要的生意是賭場。</p>
<p>問:在澳門?</p>
<p>陳:是的,直到現在,仍然是賭場業。除此之外,沒有其他的事情可做。因此,高中畢業之後,我很難找到工作。後來,我有一次去香港的機會。任何工作我都會去做。最後,我在建築領域中找到一份工作。</p>
<p>問:你是說體力勞動,像建樓房?</p>
<p> 陳:是的,建樓房。香港有很多高樓。那個時候,房地産業非常繁榮。因此,幹這個比較容易找工作。</p>
<p>問:那是在八十年代?</p>
<p>陳:七十年代末到八十年代初。</p>
<p>問:那個時候,香港的房地産非常繁榮?</p>
<p>陳:是的。是的。你即使沒有做過建築工人,他們也會雇你,在工地培訓你。你學了之後就可以練習。</p>
<p>問:到了香港之後,你爲什么又決定來美國?你是什麽時候決定來美國的?</p>
<p>陳:1984年4月。</p>
<p>問:因爲什么你決定來美國?</p>
<p>陳:我有機會過來。我姐姐已經在這裏了。她結了婚,能夠把我們申請過來。</p>
<p>問:你是說你姐姐申請你來美國的?</p>
<p>陳:是的。在我來之前,她來這裏上大學。後來就結婚了。獲得公民身份之後就申請我們過來了。</p>
<p>問:你來的時候有多大年紀?</p>
<p>陳:我於1957年出生。1984年是…27歲?對,是27歲。</p>
<p> 問:你那時在香港已經有了一些工作經驗,稍懂英文。在香港學了些英文。</p>
<p>陳:(笑聲)並非如此。</p>
<p>問:不是嗎(笑聲)?</p>
<p>陳:因爲在香港,我只是做工,基本上都是講中文。大多數人都講中文。當然在香港,英文很普及,但大多數做低級工作的人還是講中文。只是講些英文單詞,而且也不是標準發音。對於我來講,我認爲那根本不是英文。我到這裏之後很長一段時間都不適應。</p>
<p>問:那你是直接來到紐約的,因爲你姐姐已經在這裏了?</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:你對紐約市的印象如何?</p>
<p>陳:因爲我姐姐住在皇后區。我對紐約的第一印象是:紐約不是一個現代化的城市(笑)。與有很多現代建築物和高樓大廈的香港相比。這裏都是水泥樓房。皇后區幾乎像個郊區一樣。那個時候,我家附近最高的樓房只有六層(笑聲)。</p>
<p>問:皇后區哪里?</p>
<p>陳:Kew Gardens。紐約市並不都是這樣。當然去了曼哈頓之後就知道不全是這樣的。我對曼哈頓不是非常熟悉,因爲在我來到紐約後的第三天,我在唐人街找到一份工作(笑聲)。因此,我一直都待在唐人街。<br>
沒有機會看真正的曼哈頓。我只是每天從Kew Garden到曼哈頓上班,然後回家。僅此而已。</p>
<p>問:你當時有沒有想到了美國之後做什么?</p>
<p>陳:我沒有任何計劃。我只是想找一份工作,因爲我要生存。我來紐約的時候,口袋裏只有60塊錢(笑聲)。第二天,我姐姐告訴我怎樣去唐人街。我買了份報紙,開始打電話。我非常幸運。三天之後,我在唐人街找到一份做裝修的工作。</p>
<p>問:是不是類似於你在香港建的高樓大廈?</p>
<p>陳:不是的。因爲這裏的牆壁是用岩石做的,不是水泥。結構不同,但還算可以。我覺得工作要容易一些。只是和在香港不太一樣。</p>
<p>問:那你來的時候是爲華人做工?</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:你用不著講太多英文?</p>
<p>陳:是的,根本不需要。我還記得…有一次我在我家附近的街上走,對面有一些美國人,我就很害怕在那邊走(笑聲)。</p>
<p>問:在街的對面?</p>
<p>陳:是的,我害怕見那些人。講“Hi”或什么的。是的,在那個時候,我很害怕。但在唐人街待了大約一年半之後,我感到我必須要打破這個界限。如果我決定要呆在美國,我必須要學英文。<br>
我於是開始去那些ESL班練習。在那個時候,我不知道有免費課程,社區提供免費英語課程。於是,我就去那些付費的ESL班。我從最基礎的學起,像ABC字母。</p>
<p>問:非常基礎的。</p>
<p>陳:是的,非常基礎的。但那個時候,我還不知道哪里有那些課程。一直找不到。上課的時候,我根本聽不懂。沒有雙語的教師,我不知道是怎麽回事,他們在講什麽(笑聲)。我還記得我去的第一個班,三天之後,我就沒再去了。我完全不知道課的內容是什么。我跟不上。我試著看電視新聞,聽電臺廣播,一點一點地學。有一天我的確下定決心要花時間學英文。那是我在唐人街工作了兩年之後,在一次發了薪水之後,我確實想請我弟弟到中城麥當勞吃一頓飯。但當我去到那裏的時候,我不會點菜(笑聲)。他們不知道我在講什麽,我想…</p>
<p>問:那時你來美國也有兩年多了?</p>
<p>陳:是的,我想要巨無霸和薯條。我不停地說“土豆片”,他們說“我們沒有”。後來,我們只好回到唐人街吃飯。在那之後,我就想爲什麽我在美國生活了兩年後還不能去麥當勞吃飯?那對我是個恥辱。這確實激勵我要努力學習英文。</p>
<p>問:在紐約市生活了兩年後,你還不能在麥當勞點巨無霸和薯條,你覺得這很不好…</p>
<p>陳:是的,不好。</p>
<p>問:於是,你決定要學習,我是說認真學習英文。</p>
<p> 陳:我上了很多班,去了很多學校,看報紙。一些朋友告訴我哪里有課上,如果我有時間也會去的。我花了很長一段時間才開始入門。</p>
<p>問:那你在這期間仍然在唐人街做建築工人?</p>
<p>陳:沒有,在決定要認真學習英語之後,我就辭職了,在中城一家美國倉庫公司找到一份工作。我想儘量離開華人社區,迫使自己去一個英文的環境學英文。</p>
<p>問:你在這家倉庫做什么?</p>
<p>陳:這是一家堆放紡織品的倉庫。紡織品。他們公司有很多設計師,製造紡織品,做好之後就把成品送到倉庫裏面。其他公司會去那裏拿材料。我的工作是按照他們需要的碼數把紡織品切好給他們,並做記錄。他們有很多不同的設計,款式。</p>
<p>問:你做那份工作需不需要講英文?</p>
<p>陳:需要。我的英文有了進步。後來,我又換了幾個工作。但最後還是回到建築這一行。我對這個比較熟悉。</p>
<p>問:在你剛來唐人街的時候,在頭兩年,你對唐人街的印象如何?</p>
<p>陳:那個時候,唐人街對於我來講是與外界隔絕的一個區域。這是我的感覺。在唐人街,你用不著講英文。你完全可以講中文生存。你講中文什麽事情都可以做。那個時候,我覺得唐人街很古老。那些商店和餐館,食物都是古老的風格。<br>
在唐人街賣的商品也是古老風格的。在香港,你看到的都是新的東西。香港跟這裏不同,那裏有從各個國家運來的新産品,試探香港的市場。在唐人街,你會感到回到了16世紀!</p>
<p>問:遠遠落後於香港。</p>
<p>陳:是的,沒錯。</p>
<p>問:你覺得在唐人街生活習不習慣?</p>
<p>陳:習慣。人們很友好。許多華人願意相互幫助。這是我的感覺。</p>
<p>問:除了你姐姐之外,你在這裏不認識其他人嗎?</p>
<p>陳:不會。我有加入唐人街的教會(笑)。因此,我很快在教會交了一些朋友。</p>
<p>問:在去CPA之前,你在倉庫公司做了多久?</p>
<p>陳:我只在那裏做了一年,然後又找了另外一份工作。我有機會做建築師,畫透視圖。那是個臺灣公司。他們需要助手幫助畫透視圖。我在澳門的時候就喜歡畫圖。於是,我在那個公司學畫圖。我在那裏待了一年半。後來,我又去了一個發展公司做建築開發。很多華人要買房,把原有的房子拆了之後,再建三層或六層的樓房。我在那裏也做過。後來,我自己開建築公司。1999年,因爲房地産市場不太好,我關閉了公司,又回到了學校。</p>
<p> 問:你是什麽時候開始在CPA做事的?</p>
<p>陳:1989年,六四事件之後。在那之後不久,我去了城市學院。我去的第一所學校是LaGuardia學院。因爲我開始上學,而且又關閉了我的公司,我需要打一份散工。有人跟我講,說CPA在找一個社區組織者。於是,我就遞了我的簡歷,並於1992年開始在CPA工作。</p>
<p>問:在此以前,你有沒有參加過什么社區活動嗎?</p>
<p>陳:我有參加過教會的活動。其實也算不上是社區工作,只是幫助其他教友。但在六四事件期間,我的確非常積極,並且有機會接觸到不同的組織。我開始變得更加感興趣,並且更加瞭解社區服務了。因此,我對這方面産生了興趣。</p>
<p>問:這跟搞建築不一樣。</p>
<p>陳:確實很不一樣(輕聲地笑)。完全不同。我喜歡在CPA工作。學院畢業之後---我的專業是藝術和電腦圖形。</p>
<p>問:你喜歡在CPA工作的哪些方面?</p>
<p>陳:作爲一個基層組織,CPA直接向社區提供服務。它使我有機會瞭解社區,以及那裏的問題。我們能夠獲得如何幫助社區的第一手經驗。你可以看到結果,看到你的工作會給社區帶來怎樣的變化。這給了我很深的影響。</p>
<p>問:CPA向社區提供的服務包括哪些?</p>
<p>陳:CPA向社區提供一系列服務。首先是移民權利。我們有一個入籍專案,幫助那些符合條件或想瞭解入籍以及入籍程式的人。我們受理一些申請,並做些跟進的工作。我們開設了英文課和<br>
入籍班。我們自己做案子,並向他們提供資訊,教他們如何處理相關事務。除此之外,CPA還負責一些環保的問題。唐人街地區存在很多環保問題,因此CPA非常關心這些,並且對社區進行教育。比如,我們關心那些舊樓房鉛中毒的問題。唐人街有很多舊樓房。華人並不瞭解這些,但如果你知道了,你能有意識地保護這些舊樓房。你能保護你自己。使自己不會受到傷害。還有哮喘病和吸煙問題。在華人社區,吸煙非常普遍。越來越多的青少年吸煙。我們試圖在社區裏強調這個問題,尤其是青少年吸煙和被動吸煙。</p>
<p>問:我們談一下你所做的研究,我想是在2001年?</p>
<p>陳:2002年。</p>
<p>問:在2002年,你對580個人進行了調查?</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:那是在唐人街地區。跟我們講一下那個調查。調查的確切範圍在哪里?你調查了哪些區域?</p>
<p>陳:自從1996年以來,EPA(環境保護局)公佈了一份曼哈頓地區汽油污染情況的報告。報告顯示Canal街是全市污染最嚴重的街道之一。我們認爲這是一個非常嚴重的問題。我們也知道一些CPA成員以及他們的朋友患有哮喘病。因此,CPA想要查明唐人街地區哮喘病的發病情況。在此之前,我們做過一些報告,有DOH的統計。該統計顯示唐人街地區兒童哮喘病患病率很低…</p>
<p>問:很低?</p>
<p> 陳:是的,非常低。當然這是指住院率。這些資料來源於醫院對患哮喘病和住院病人的記錄。在華人社區,很多人不會去醫院看病,也不去住院。</p>
<p>問:你是從哪里得到這些統計的?</p>
<p>陳:DOH,衛生局。我們認爲這僅僅是實際情況的一部分。在9/11之後,污染情況更加嚴重。這就是爲什麽我們決定要做哮喘病的調查,查明唐人街地區的真實情況。我們組織了很多志願者,對那份調查做了進一步的研究。我們走到街上,在公園裏,在圖書館,在唐人街各個地方做調查。有一些資料我們不能使用,因爲我們採訪的那些人不住在唐人街。一些調查資料我們不能用。最後,我們一共調查了唐人街580個家庭,都沒有集中在特定的區域。我們吃驚地發現,根據統計,五個家庭之中就至少有一個患哮喘病的。</p>
<p>問:你們是怎樣調查的?是不是隨機在不同的公衆場所問街上的行人?你們有沒有讓他們做呼吸測試?你們到底是怎麽做的?</p>
<p>陳:隨機調查。</p>
<p>問:回答問題單?</p>
<p>陳:我們用了三個月的時間準備問題單。</p>
<p>問:給我舉一個問題單上問題的例子。你們是怎樣確定別人是否患哮喘病?</p>
<p> 陳:在調查中,我們首先問他們住在哪里?接著,你是否呼吸有困難?是否被醫生確診患哮喘病,以及診斷時間?我們問一些類似的問題。</p>
<p>問:和EPA做出唐人街是紐約市污染最嚴重地區的統計結果相比,你的調查是否是使用同樣或者類似的方法?他們是怎樣獲得那些資訊的?你們是否使用了類似的方法?你知道他們是怎麽做的嗎?</p>
<p>陳:我忘記了。在我們準備問題單的時候,我們有DOH和EPA的範本。</p>
<p>問:你們做了些修改?</p>
<p>陳:是的,我們做了些修改。Mount Sinai醫院也做了他們自己的研究。我們有這兩套方式,做了些比較,然後創造了我們自己的模式。</p>
<p>問:唐人街有很多非盈利組織,爲什么CPA會出面做這個?</p>
<p>陳:實際上,我不太清楚。但在唐人街區域,我們大家都應該關心環境問題。也許是因爲資金問題,或者很多人覺得這不是一個嚴重的問題,因爲哮喘病,鉛中毒,和吸煙不會立即對健康産生影響。長期來看,會對以後有影響,但不是立即有影響。我們知道這些是很嚴重的問題,我們也同時知道哮喘病,鉛中毒和吸煙都能有效受到控制。如果你瞭解了,你就能夠保護自己。</p>
<p>問:你們做調查的時候有沒有包括不同年齡段的人?你說你們調查了580個家庭,包括兒童和老年人嗎?</p>
<p> 陳:是的。我們的調查沒有包括16歲以下的兒童。調查物件只是16歲以上的成人。我們有去老年人中心對老年人進行調查。在調查過程中,我們發現很多人不瞭解哮喘病,尤其是老年人。大多數老年人認爲哮喘病是兒童疾病。“用不著擔心。什麽也用不著做。他們長大之後,哮喘病會自動消失的。”諸如此類的想法。他們認爲如果你哮喘,就去做一些體育運動,跑步,游泳,使你的身體更強壯,這樣哮喘會消失的。那種想法。還有很多人認爲堅持吃一段時期的藥也會治癒哮喘病的。</p>
<p>問:看來你的調查顯示了兩樣事情:一個是唐人街的環境,空氣質量…</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:其次是哮喘病,而且這兩件事是相關聯的。但比如,你剛才談到老年人。我想他們很多都來自中國,那裏男性吸煙非常普遍。這要看他們居住的地區,如果他們住在工廠附近或大城市裏,比如廣州,那裏環境污染非常嚴重,很多人在來之前就有患哮喘病的傾向,你很難說他們的哮喘病是唐人街的環境造成的。你懂我的意思嗎?有多少是因爲唐人街的污染造成的,又有多少是受以前在中國以及個人的影響?</p>
<p>陳:這是個很好的問題(笑聲)。根據我們的統計,哮喘病患者中51.1%是青少年。從整體來講,有三分之一哮喘病患者是在搬到唐人街地區之後被診斷患有哮喘病的。這就是說,在他們來美國之前,來紐約之前,沒有被診斷患任何病。但自從他們來到唐人街,尤其在9/11之後,他們呼吸就有了問題。這些症狀更加嚴重。可能正如你所講,是他們以前就有的。<br>
但事實告訴我們,9/11之後,整體上都有惡化。這是我們所見到的事實。</p>
<p>問:上一次報告是EPA在9/11之前,1996年做的?</p>
<p>陳:是的。但那份報告只顯示了汽油污染。並不包括所有的問題,空氣質量。但在9/11之後,我認爲這成爲了一個非常嚴重的問題。我在唐人街工作。那天,我在唐人街。在那之後,我只有一天沒有到唐人街來。後來,我每天都有到唐人街。我仍然記得在感恩節之後還能聞到空氣裏那種氣味。</p>
<p>問:那差不多是兩個月之後。</p>
<p>陳:前三個星期簡直是糟透了。即使把窗戶關上,到處都能夠聞到空氣裏非常強烈的難聞氣味。</p>
<p>問:你是否記得在9/11之後EPA對唐人街做了什麽污染的調查,因爲唐人街離世貿中心非常近?</p>
<p>陳:我聽說過,但記不大清楚了。是的,他們有做過,但不是在唐人街地區。而且,在9/11之後,人們只是關心Canal街以南的唐人街。我覺得很可笑(笑聲),因爲這個界限沒有任何意義,空氣是自由流動的。實際上,我們的辦公室在Canal街北面。但我每天還是能夠聞到。</p>
<p>問:根據你們的地點,在Canal街以北,你們有沒有資格領空氣篩檢程式或其他9/11的資金?</p>
<p>陳:沒有(笑聲)。</p>
<p> 問:那麽,作爲一個組織,因爲所處的位置,CPA沒有得到任何9/11資金嗎?</p>
<p>陳:沒有。</p>
<p>問:那你們做哮喘病研究的經費是從哪里來的?</p>
<p>陳:我忘記經費的問題了,但只有非常少的資金。</p>
<p>問:是私人提供的嗎?</p>
<p>陳:我想是私人提供的。CPA基本上是靠私人機構資助的。我們沒有得到太多的政府資金,因爲我們不是一個大的機構,儘管我們爲社區做了很多高質量的工作。自從政府削減開支以來,我們確實很難得到資助。我們現在有經費開設免費英文課。但這些經費不是因爲9/11獲得的。是以前的資金。CPA沒有得到舉辦工作培訓,英文輔導的資金。</p>
<p>問:唐人街有資格申請空氣篩檢程式和資金的地區是在Canal街和Pike街之間的區域嗎?</p>
<p>陳:那個區域以下。關於篩檢程式,你如果後來符合條件,也會在家裏申請到。</p>
<p>問:不論你在哪里?</p>
<p>陳:只要那裏的空氣受到影響。我知道很多在布魯克林區日落公園地區住的人也申請到了。</p>
<p>問:(打斷)唐人街空氣污染是因爲交通。曼哈頓橋在這邊,不遠又是布魯克林橋。這個區域交通堵塞比較嚴重。剛才你談到汽油污染。因此,唐人街在9/11之前就已經很糟糕了。<br>
EPA或者其他環保組織有沒有過問過這裏空氣污染的問題?就你瞭解,都採取了些什麽樣的措施來解決這個問題?</p>
<p>陳:據我所知,現在政府在唐人街地區做的事情不多。現在是越來越糟,因爲受9/11影響空氣質量下降,以及旅遊汽車。有一些私人公司經營去波士頓,華盛頓,費城的旅遊交通業務。</p>
<p>問:在東百老彙?</p>
<p>陳:是的,在東百老彙。還有Bowery街上去賭場的汽車。那些大卡車和大轎車。還有,總是在修橋。Canal街也總在修。施工,旅遊汽車,仍然有柴油卡車開過曼哈頓橋。</p>
<p>問:所有這些都與9/11沒有關係?唐人街一直都有這些?</p>
<p>陳:只是越來越糟。在9/11之後,這只是巧合。整個唐人街地區的空氣質量都變得越來越糟。越來越糟。</p>
<p>問:你一共做了多長時間的調查?</p>
<p>陳:我們從2002年春天開始,到2002年8月有了最終結果。</p>
<p>問:才6個月?你們有沒有重復調查?你們是怎樣收集資訊的?</p>
<p>陳:我們沒有做太多的跟進工作,因爲人手不夠,而且我們沒有經費做跟進的工作。現在,我們在開展一項唐人街社區哮喘病的專案。CPA有了一個更好的計劃。第一件事就是做更多的宣傳教育。第二件事是改善環境。第三件事是監控空氣質量。<br>
我們在朝這三個方向努力。現在,我們在申請經費,不知道能否有資金來做這些。我們要在這三個方面下功夫。</p>
<p>問:教育即是教育社區,讓居民和業主,在這裏工作和居住的人知道周圍環境發生的事情。針對這些研究結果,你都做了些什么?你們是怎樣利用這些調查報告取得市議員的關注的?你們是怎樣同政府交涉,以使這些問題得到改善的?</p>
<p>陳:在政府層面上,我們想要看到環境的改善。我們大家聚在一起想點子。比如,今年夏天,我們和其他組織合作,要製作一個記錄片,讓人們知道唐人街空氣污染的嚴重性。我們召集了一些青少年,就這個問題培訓他們,看他們會提出什麽樣的想法。我們希望這十分鐘的錄影會引起人們對唐人街環境污染問題的關注。我們還有另外一個想法,但還沒有一個確切的計劃,因爲我們有一個核心組織專門負責這個問題。另外一個想法是統計唐人街的植樹,再同環境發展搞得好的社區相比較,比如看有多少綠色區域。完成這一步之後,第二步就是要把這些送到市議會。</p>
<p>問:你的調查主要是針對哮喘病。9/11之後,你沒有做汽油污染以外空氣組成的調查?</p>
<p>陳:實際上通過監控空氣質量,我們已經得到了一些資訊。我們已經聯繫了做實地監控的部門。但這的確需要專業技術人員來搞。我們想與一些大學教授和博士專案合作,看他們是否有興趣研究唐人街地區的空氣質量。但我們明確知道那還是不夠。現在只是在郵局頂上有一個監控台。</p>
<p> 問:這是我們現在的狀況?</p>
<p>陳:是的,現在,這是我們僅有的。街道上沒有這些。我們計劃做更多的研究,看一下有哪個組織對街道水平的空氣質量感興趣。</p>
<p>問:在我看來,解決這個問題需要做兩方面的事情。交通等方面的事需要在市政府層面上解決。但比如像旅遊汽車等的事情需要在華人商業界範圍內解決。並不是由政府干涉,說你必須把車停在哪里。那是華人商業界的事情。那你們有沒有試圖跟他們聯繫,比如說讓他們把車停在其他地方,因爲他們也造成了唐人街的空氣污染。</p>
<p>陳:是的。在忙完手裏的工作之後,我們要跟那些商業組織聯繫,看他們有沒有什麽辦法做些改進。關於政府方面,也許在做了更多的研究之後,我們可能會建議比如說哪條街要改成單行道。那些柴油卡車應該繞道而行,而不是直接走Canal街。但在此之前我們必須要做更多的工作。</p>
<p>問:你認爲那些商業界人士會關心這些嗎?那些停在東百老彙的旅遊汽車公司和去賭場的汽車公司,你認爲他們會認識到從某種程度上講他們也造成了唐人街的空氣污染?還是說他們只是關心自己的生意?</p>
<p>陳:是的,他們確實關心自己的生意。但如果我們能找到更好的方式解決他們生意上的問題,同時又照顧到環境,這將對他們的旅遊業務和社區經濟都有幫助。必須有一些相互的利益。但如果沒有人去找這些相互促進的方式,這當然會不利於改善當前的形勢。如果我們花時間做些研究,去探求這種相互促進的方式,也許會有所改善。</p>
<p>問:在跟很多唐人街社區的民衆談過話之後,我總感覺到他們認爲政府,市里對唐人街不夠重視,<br>
尤其是在9/11之後。但在我看來,似乎社區本身很多事情也沒有做好。</p>
<p>陳:我本人認爲,那些商業組織只是顧自己。換句話說,他們只是關心如何做好自己的生意,而不去注意環保。但他們確實聞得到臭味,尤其是在夏天,大家都知道這對旅遊業不利。我想指出我們對面的鄰居,小義大利區,整條街都是餐館,但他們就沒有那種氣味。他們是怎麽做的?爲什麽他們能夠做到?如果我們能夠改進---</p>
<p>問:你是否認爲那些義大利餐館老闆在共同合作方面做得比華人好?</p>
<p>陳:我不知道。我想應該有人做些研究。他們怎樣處理垃圾?怎樣保持街道清潔?他們爲什麽經營餐館卻沒有那種臭味(笑聲)?在我們做了研究之後,我們要看是否唐人街能夠採取相同的措施。唐人街能否做到這些?我想他們會認識到,如果他們多做一些努力,或者稍加注意一些,他們能夠改善環境狀況,除掉難聞的氣味,這對他們也是有好處的。我相信他們會這樣做的,因爲這關係到他們的生意。如果門前很乾淨而且沒有臭味,顧客自然都會來的。</p>
<p>(換磁帶。中斷)</p>
<p>問:你說到你很欣賞在同一條街的小義大利區,同在Mulberry和Mott街上,僅隔一條街,能夠管理得沒有唐人街的那種氣味(笑聲)。我想問你一個不太禮貌的問題,你是否覺得華人以自己的環境爲榮?因爲如果你看中國,你是否認爲唐人街在某種程度上是中國的一個縮影,在人們的生活方式上?做生意的方式上?彼此的交流上?走在街上,我看到很多商販<br>
把所有的東西都擺在街上。把所有的東西,所有的垃圾丟在街上。從很多方面來講,華人是否真正關心自己周圍的環境?</p>
<p>陳:我認爲他們是沒有這種意識。正是因爲這個原因,我們要教育他們。我想華人自身也愛乾淨。但他們不知道怎麽做。沒有人給他們樹立榜樣。我想以香港爲例。我記得,在60年代的時候,街上都有很多垃圾。但政府搞運動,鼓勵人們保持街道清潔。他們甚至設計了一個卡通人物,一個垃圾蟲。後來,城市就變了。當時,人們知道那是好事情。但在唐人街,沒有人行動,沒有人提出以及認真對待這個問題。</p>
<p>問:你認爲教育是一方面,在環境污染方面,他們不知道他們的行爲會給環境帶來哪些影響。</p>
<p>陳:是的。沒有人組織計劃過,告訴他們該怎樣做。不但是要教育他們,讓他們知道保持環境清潔對他們有益,而且要跟他們講需要做些什么,以及怎樣做。我自己總是在想,就在街對面,小義大利區就完全不一樣。我們要花時間去研究,看唐人街能否採取類似的措施,或者找到更好的方式來解決這個問題。</p>
<p>問:我們有沒有和小義大利社區聯繫,請教他們是如何保持環境清潔的?</p>
<p>陳:我不負責這些事情,因此我本人不清楚。但我知道除了我們以外還有其他一些組織比較關注環保問題,比如Clean Up Chinatown。鑒於對唐人街街道清潔問題的關注,他們特別成立了這個組織。也許他們比我們做了更多的事情。</p>
<p>問:看了你的研究報告之後,我想你提出的問題之一就是蟑螂。</p>
<p> 陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:我們都知道,唐人街有很多餐館,而且餐館上面還有很多住家,只要樓下有餐館,那些樓裏就免不了會有蟑螂。你是否認爲唐人街哮喘病患者的數目同唐人街對餐館業的依賴性有關?</p>
<p>陳:我不知道。我想應該是沒有關係,因爲每一個哮喘病人發病原因都不一樣。並不只是因爲蟑螂,或氣味。有時是因爲吸煙。有時是因爲香水。無論如何,這些都造成了環境污染。而且,這些都能夠得到有效控制和改善的。</p>
<p>問:蟑螂問題能夠得到控制?你是這個意思嗎?</p>
<p>陳:不是,我是說從整體來看。是的。某種程度上來講,蟑螂問題也是如此(笑聲)。只是他們要稍加注意。這是能夠做到的。</p>
<p>問:在調查中你提到五個人當中有一個---</p>
<p>陳:家庭。五個家庭裏有一個。</p>
<p>問:五個家庭裏有一個人?</p>
<p>陳:不對。五個家庭中有一個家庭。</p>
<p>問:五個家庭中的一個家庭。</p>
<p>陳:是的,至少一個家庭裏有哮喘病患者。</p>
<p> 問:這比衛生局按照哮喘病住院病人的標準所做出的統計結果要高。你提到很多患哮喘病的華人不去醫院。</p>
<p>陳:因爲華人習慣吃從藥店裏買來的中國進口的藥。</p>
<p>問:或者是中藥?</p>
<p>陳:是的,或許是中藥。在那些華人藥店,你能找到醫治各種疾病的藥。治身體上每一個部位的病(笑聲)。如果你禿頂,吃這個或那個。只要是你能夠講出來名字的病,他們都有藥治。是否奏效卻是另外一回事。大多數華人會吃這些藥。那是中國那邊的習慣。他們如果生了病,第一件事就是去藥店,而不是去看醫生。他們去藥店找一些西藥或中藥來吃,如果不管用,再試其他一些方法。如果後來他們的病情變得越來越嚴重,那他們不得不去看醫生。因此,醫生不是他們的第一選擇。首選是去藥店買藥。</p>
<p>問:華人有種想法,認爲哮喘病並不嚴重。認爲過了一段時間之後會自然好的。</p>
<p>陳:是的。所以,他們不把哮喘病當成一個嚴重的問題,就好像吸煙。每個人都吸煙,沒有什麽大不了的?爲什么總把它當成很大的一件事?人們的觀念需要改變。我們也負責吸煙的問題。大多數人不知道一支香煙裏含有多少有毒物質。如果他們知道裏面有四千多種對身體有害的化學成分,我想他們下一次拿起香煙要點的時候會多考慮一些。但他們並不知道這些。因此,我們首先要進行教育。</p>
<p> 問:據你所知,EPA或者其他機構,有沒有對唐人街的空氣質量或空氣污染做過長期的研究,調查在9/11之後這個地區的空氣中是否增加了一些新的未知的物質?</p>
<p>陳:我自己沒有印象。EPA做了一項空氣質量的研究,但他們未公佈任何資料。</p>
<p>問:除了像CPA這麽小的組織,除了你自己做的這些事情,你認爲EPA還能做些什麽來改善現狀?其他組織又能做些什么來解決這個問題?這是這個地區主要的問題,我認爲這要由很多機構組織起來共同解決這個問題,從交通到清潔,很多很多的事情。</p>
<p>陳:CPA已經開始與其他組織合作。希望這樣的聯繫會越來越多。使更多的組織參與進來,使他們對這個地區和這些問題産生興趣。CPA不是自己做事情,我們需要與其他組織合作。比如,CPA與六家不同的醫院合作,讓他們瞭解唐人街的問題。我們也與很多較大的組織有聯繫,像一些聯合組織,看他們是否有興趣幫助我們。</p>
<p>問:值得注意的是,現在9/11已經過去兩年多了,能夠通過追蹤調查看到---,我們知道在9/11以後,空氣質量顯然變得越來越差,但你仍然不清楚世貿中心的倒塌會使多少人患哮喘病,或受其他潛在的對身體健康有害的因素的影響。</p>
<p>陳:現在我們還不知道。我們做了很多工作,但因爲我們人力有限,還不瞭解整個局面。如果要深入瞭解,我們需要讓更多的組織加入進來。這是我們的希望,以及今後要做的事情。</p>
<p>問:你認爲唐人街普通的華人對此會有多少瞭解或有多么關心?如果你是一個新移民,剛剛來到美國或者紐約,<br>
你多半會到唐人街工作或做其他什麽事情。你認爲他們會想“啊,這裏空氣不好,也許我不應該待在這裏?”你認爲一般的華人會想到這些嗎?</p>
<p>陳:沒錯。很多新移民住在Canal街上,接近東百老彙,很多是福州人。我們在工作當中經常要接觸很多福州人,合法移民和非法移民都有。他們頭腦中的首要任務絕對不是環境問題。他們要爲生存而奮鬥,所以首要的事情是賺錢。如何安頓下來,過上好生活。一個非常普遍的問題是很多家庭爲了讓母親有時間工作而把孩子送回中國。這是很悲傷的事情。他們主要關心的是怎樣賺錢,以及怎樣賺更多的錢(笑聲)。他們有很多傷心的故事。他們自然不會想到環境問題,但這並不意味著我們不應該告訴他們。我們要通過各種渠道努力教導他們。至少是怎樣在日常生活中保護自己。</p>
<p>問:給我們舉幾個人們能在這裏保護自己的例子。其一,很明顯就是不要吸煙。</p>
<p>陳:比如,他們不知道吸煙以及被動吸煙是多麽有害。他們沒有這種概念,因爲這在中國不是很嚴重的事情。很多人都吸煙,在家裏或者其他場合。因此,我們跟他們講真實的情況。我們告訴他們,如果他們確實要吸煙,那至少要離開房間。如果吸煙的人不這樣做,那么你要離開房間。還有鉛中毒的問題,尤其是在舊樓房裏。他們應該知道不要開防火窗。要多加注意窗罩,脫落的漆。還有你剛才提到的蟑螂的問題,他們只是需要多加注意。在唐人街曼哈頓橋和Williamsburg橋地區有很多的鉛塵。在那兒周圍居住的人要多加注意。不要打開窗戶。在家要使用空氣篩檢程式或空調。</p>
<p> 問:聽起來你還有很多工作要做。第一步就是要獲得更多的資金繼續做研究。一旦有了所有的資料,你要同唐人街各界組織聯繫,包括市里和政府層面。</p>
<p>陳:現在,CPA是很多主流聯盟的成員。比如,紐約移民聯盟,美國亞裔聯邦,和紐約禁煙聯盟。我們想把各個團體都團結起來,希望將來能夠解決唐人街的問題。</p>
<p>問:聽起來你有很多工作要做(笑聲)。我祝你好運。</p>
<p>陳:實際上,並不是我或CPA在做這些。CPA有很多志願者。我要感謝他們幫助我們開英文課和入籍班,以及在環境問題上的幫助。那些志願者每次都貢獻出他們的時間,他們確實關心社區,他們在一起工作,完成了我們的任務。</p>
<p>問:我們要談最後一件事情。很多人都提到EPA建立的街道系統,如果你在Canal街以上,你得不到一些補助。你是否覺得這是一個愚蠢的想法?很明顯,用這種方式把這些區域分開不起作用。</p>
<p>陳:是的,的確是。現在,EPA在爲那些受9/11影響家裏空氣質量下降的家庭免費做實地檢測。但這還是不夠。正如你所說,只是限於Canal街以下。這樣把唐人街切成兩半。</p>
<p>問:而且,空氣到處流動(笑聲)。</p>
<p>陳:是的。做的是不錯,但還是不夠。我本人認爲要多做一些。不是說要多做些免費實地檢測。就好像吃阿司匹林治頭痛一樣。並沒有治癒主要的病症。主要的問題在室外,空氣質量。我希望EPA更加關注室外空氣質量。<br>
如何改善這一區域的狀況。唐人街是Ground Zero附近最大的住宅區。不僅華人住在這裏,還有很多其他族裔居民。在這裏居住的人位於9/11受害者的最前線。應該有更多的資金投入到這裏,做更多的事情。但如何做,以及做什么,我認爲他們需要做更多的研究。比如,一些街道要改成步行街。住宅區不應該有商業交通。我想這會對解決污染問題有幫助。整個唐人街地區的交通系統要重新規劃。現在,這裏的人口日益增長。無論如何,他們應該做更多的研究,爲這個區域找到更好的解決方法。</p>
<p>問:我相信這將非常具有挑戰性,因爲所有這些問題並不是一夜之間産生的。獲得良好和永久的改善需要很多組織做出大量努力。我感謝你和CPA積極的參與,對民衆的宣傳教育,以及盡了自己的一份力。特別感謝你和CPA花費這麽多時間做這些工作。還有什麽我們沒談到你需要補充的嗎?</p>
<p>陳:沒有了(輕笑聲)。</p>
<p>問:非常感謝你。我是Lan Trinh。</p>
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Chris Chan
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Joseph Chu
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Teri Chan
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-04-24
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
elder
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: Mr. Chu, would you say your Chinese name and English name?
</p>
<p>
Chu: I am Joseph Wah Chu.
</p>
<p>
Q: When were you born? Where were you born?</p>
<p>
Chu: I was born in 1933 in Toishan County, Guangdong Province, China.
I studied in my hometown and then went to Guangzhou for high school.
After China had been liberated (1949), I moved to Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>
Q: How long did you live in Hong Kong? When did you come to the
United States?</p>
<p>
Chu: I lived in Hong Kong for over ten years. I worked and studied
there. I studied at the United College of Chinese University of Hong
Kong for four years. I was a teacher for several years. I came to the
United States in 1965. I lived in San Francisco for one year and then
I moved to New York in 1966.
</p>
<p>
Q: After you came to New York, what did you do?</p>
<p>
Chu: When I was in San Francisco, I worked as a busboy. I then worked
in a department store for several months. The first job I had was a
busboy in the House of Chan.</p>
<p>
Q: Where was the House of Chan?</p>
<p>
Chu: The
restaurant was in midtown. Back then, the restaurants in Chinatown
were small, and not as big as the Jing Fong Restaurant and the Silver
Palace Restaurant. House of Chan was the biggest among the Chinese
restaurants.
</p>
<p>
Q: How big was it? Who were the customers?</p>
<p>
Chu: The kitchen had more than 10 workers. The dinning area also had
more than 10 workers. Most of the customers were foreigners and there
were few Chinese.
</p>
<p>
Q: How long did you work in that restaurant? Did you change vocations
after that job?</p>
<p>
Chu: I worked as a busboy for a few months. I purposefully wanted to
learn to be a waiter. Then my friends opened a restaurant in Chicago.
They asked me to help. I worked in Chicago as a waiter for more than
half a year.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you return to New York after working in Chicago?</p>
<p>
Chu: Yes. I returned to New York in 1967 and worked in a restaurant
as a waiter. My wife came and we were married in 1968. I continued to
work as a waiter in a restaurant.
</p>
<p>
Q: Why did you choose New York and not Chicago?</p>
<p>
Chu: Because I had a lot of friends, coworkers and classmates in New
York. We had been good friends in Hong Kong. Hence, I chose New York.
And also, job opportunities in New York were better. When compared
with San Francisco and Chicago, I chose New York.
</p>
<p>
Q: How long were you in the restaurant business?</p>
<p>
Chu: Not too
long, about two to three years. Then I found a job in an American
company, working from Monday to Friday. I still worked in the
restaurant during the weekends.
</p>
<p>
Q: What business was the American company? What did you do?</p>
<p>
Chu: I worked in the office of an electrical appliances company. The
work hours were good, from 9am to 5pm. I still worked as a waiter
after work. Not only was I so diligent; people at that time used to
work seven days a week. The salaries were not high and actually, were
low. I had to raise a family and had to work two jobs, seven days a
week. The salary I earned on weekends was tax free (not reported).
Back then, I was just like the other hardworking Chinese workers,
working seven days a week.
</p>
<p>
Q: How were the fringe benefits then?</p>
<p>
Chu: My job at the American company had weekend and holidays off, as
well as medical insurance. Benefits were good. The Chinese
restaurants did not provide benefits. I was happy with the medical
insurance provided by the American company which covered my family.
The standard of living was pretty good then.
</p>
<p>
Q: How many children did you have after your marriage?</p>
<p>
Chu: I was married in 1968. My eldest daughter was born in 1970. My
second daughter was born in 1972. My third daughter was also born in
the 1970s. I worked in the American company for several years. There
was an energy crisis and economic recession in 1974. Many companies
closed down and a lot of workers were laid off. My company laid me
off. By then, the Long Island University just started its bilingual
program. I enrolled and studied there until 1976. After graduation, I
worked in a company in New Jersey. In 1978, I started working at the
New York Chinatown Senior Citizen Center.
</p>
<p>
Q: When you
first came to the senior center, what was your work? What was the
name of the senior center then?</p>
<p>
Chu: The senior center was called Chinatown Senior Citizen Coalition
Center. It was established by five community agencies.
Chinese-American Planning Council (CPC) was one of them. Hence, it
was called Coalition Center. The senior center started at the
basement of the St. Andrew Church. It was moved to 70 Mulberry Street
in 1978. I have been working there ever since.
</p>
<p>
Q: This senior center was held by five community agencies. Besides
CPC, what are the other four agencies?</p>
<p>
Chu: The other four are Chinatown Service Center, Chinese Service
Center, Chinatown Progressive Association, and The Immigrant Social
Service. And also…….</p>
<p>
Q: I will verify the names. Where was St. Andrew’s church?</p>
<p>
Chu: St. Andrew’s Church was opposite from the Municipal
Building (on Chamber Street).
</p>
<p>
Q: Was it opposite from City Hall?</p>
<p>
Chu: Yes, although it was not far away from Chinatown, the streets
were not good for seniors to walk. The seniors had difficult walking
from Chinatown to there. The streets were too narrow. There were not
very many members then. When we moved here to 70 Mulberry in 1978,
membership increased steadily.
</p>
<p>
Q: When you started working, how many members were there? Where did
the seniors come from?</p>
<p>
Chu: Most of the
Chinese immigrants came from Toishan. Over one hundred lunches were
served (daily). We didn’t have as many staff as now. There were
several workers in the kitchen, three workers in the office, two
part-time workers helping with registration. There wes not many
staff.
</p>
<p>
Q: What was your position?
</p>
<p>
Chu: I first worked in social work.</p>
<p>
Q: What were the areas in social work?</p>
<p>
Chu: Helped seniors with registration (to enroll as a member), filled
forms, read letters, answered welfare questions and minimum
psychological counseling.</p>
<p>
Q: What kinds of benefits were provided to the seniors?</p>
<p>
Chu: I helped them to apply Medicaid, Food stamp, senior housing. The
benefits were not as good as today. The seniors at that time were not
very complicated and didn’t have as many problems as today,
such as domestic conflicts. Now, we have a lot of benefits but the
waiting time for senior housing is very long - takes many years from
application to approval. The benefits at present are more plentiful
than the past but the eligibility is more limited. I remember the
seniors who came in 1960’s would immediately get their green
cards upon arrival to the United States, and then apply for their
benefits. Now they have to reside in the United States for several
years before they can apply.
</p>
<p>
Q: How do they know that they are eligible for benefits? Do they read
the newspaper, or by words of mouth?</p>
<p>
Chu: Back then, the senior center had staff to help them to apply.
The Social Security Agency also sent their staff (to the senior
centers) to explain the benefits. There was
also a Social Security Agency staff stationed at The
Chinese Consolidated of Benevolent Association (CCBA). Most of the
seniors lived alone. Although a lot of seniors live alone now,
population in Chinatown was not as densely populated as it is now.
Not long after coming to the United States, the children of the
elderly reside or work elsewhere for convenience’s sake. The
seniors would not move with them because of inconvenient
transportation. Hence, their living conditions were bad. The
buildings were old and had plenty of rats and roaches. The buildings
also lacked water and heat. There were many housing problems. Even
though the living conditions were bad, the seniors would not complain
because they liked living in Chinatown. Sometimes, our staff had to
negotiate with their landlords because there was no water,
electricity, or heat in winter. If the landlord was not willing to
turn on their heat, we had to file complaints with the government
agencies. The social problems they faced back then were not
complicated.
</p>
<p>
Q: Besides your senior center, were there other senior centers?</p>
<p>
Chu: Besides New York Chinatown Senior Citizen Center, Chinatown had
Greater Chinatown Community Association, and CPC Project Open Door
Senior Citizen Center.
</p>
<p>
Q: What were the differences between these three centers?</p>
<p>
Chu: Greater Chinatown Community Association is the oldest, and was
managed by the Catholic Church and didn’t have government
funding. CPC Project Open Door Senior Citizen Center was first
managed by the NYC Department of Human Resources. After more than ten
years, it was returned to the NYC Department of Aging in 1990s. Both
were funded by the government agencies and their managing styles were
mildly different.
</p>
<p>
Q: You mentioned the senior center started with one hundred members.
How many are there now?</p>
<p>
Chu: The membership on registration book is over two to three
thousand people. A few hundred come everyday to the center for
activities. Over one hundred lunches are provided every day. Some
members do not have lunch but attend activities such as Mahjong
games, singing, sport activities or Tai Chi martial art. There were
three hundred members. Now, we have at least five hundred members
show up every day.
</p>
<p>
Q: What kinds of activities are there in the senior centers?</p>
<p>
Chu: The biggest activity is lunch. We also have Chinese music group,
choir, Tai Chi class, English class and chess art group. There is
dancing every Saturday. In addition to these activities, we also have
Chinese painting, calligraphy and poetry classes. There are numbers
games every week and news broadcasting every day. Winter activities
are less than summer. When the weather is warm, we have trips, mostly
for free.
</p>
<p>
Q: Where did most of the trips go?</p>
<p>
Chu: Most of the trips were one day trips. We started early and came
back late. We have gone to parks and specific sightseeing, such as
the Bear Mountain. We started early and came back late. The seniors
like this a lot.
</p>
<p>
Q: Where do the seniors come from?</p>
<p>
Chu: In the past, most of the elderly were Chinatown residents. Now,
many of them come from uptown, Brooklyn, Queens and even Staten
Island. The members are very active and are vastly differ from those
of 1969. The members at that time only loved to play Mahjong and
rarely go on trips, they would rather stay in Chinatown.
</p>
<p>
Q: Why are Chinese seniors living outside of Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chu: Chinese
seniors lived outside because Chinatown housing is old and worn out
and living space is very limited and saturated. When I first arrived,
the best residential area was the Two-Bridge government buildings.
Confucius Plaza (on Bowery Street) was not built at that time and it
was only a desolate spot. After the Confucius Plaza was built in
1970’s, Chinatown had a good residential area. When young
Chinese women immigrants first came here, most of them belonged to
the 23-25 union (Garment Union) and worked in the garment industry or
laundry industry. Chinese men used to work in restaurant or grocery
stores. There were not many job choices.</p>
<p>
Q: You mentioned that the senior problems at present are more
complicated than in the past. How are they more complicated? Can you
give an example?</p>
<p>
Chu: When I said it is complicated, it does not mean that it is
abnormal. Take domestic conflict as an example. The families in the
past were simple. Young generations studied hard and were obedient to
their parents. The American news reported a warm and happy picture of
the Chinese families. Later immigrant policy became more lenient. As
more immigrants came, the family structure became more complicated.
Some youngsters went astray. Society changed and Chinatown had more
gambling places and gangs, thus creating more family problems. Later,
when the immigrant policy of the United States was tightened, some
people came illegally: some of them came by visas and did not return;
some came by marriages, whether real or fraudulent marriages. Some of
our male members also did the fraudulent marriages. Some of them even
got into trouble. They helped the women get residential status and
were kicked away. Some of them had trouble even before the women had
gotten green cards.
</p>
<p>
At the same time, when the children got their parents to the United
States, the parents found out that life was not what they expected
upon arrival. It is not so easy to find jobs and their living
standards are worse than in China. For instance, they were doctors,
engineer or teachers in China but they would not be able to find
similar jobs in America. They can only be inferior
workers in restaurants, garment factories, groceries or be a
dishwasher. If they ran into a bad economy, there would be even more
family problems such as the seniors not getting along with their
daughters-in-laws or grandchildren. Some seniors told me that they
had to open beds at night and fold them up early in the morning (for
their sleeping arrangement). Or they had to sleep with their
grandchildren. After a few years, the children grew up and the
seniors couldn’t share the beds with their grandchildren
anymore. Some of them had to sleep in the living rooms so it was
inconvenient. There are many similar complaints. This is a social
problem. I wish the government has more funding to address this
problem. The senior housing is a huge issue.
</p>
<p>
Q: Are there senior housings for the elderly?</p>
<p>
Chu: Chinatown has a senior house, which is Chung Pak Building on
Baxter Street. Further away there are several senior houses. The
waiting list for Chinatown housing is very long. Take Chung Pak
Building as an example, when the building was built, there were
eighty-eight units available but five thousand application forms were
filed. Some members have a waiting list numbering of one or two
thousand plus. How long do you think they have to wait? Therefore
housing is really a problem.</p>
<p>
Of course, there were some government housing buildings near
Chinatown. But public safety was such a concern that people dared not
to move in. If they moved in, they had to go home early or would not
go out at night, otherwise they might be robbed. Now public safety is
much better. Back in the 1970s, it wasn’t that safe. When some
of the seniors were robbed by Puerto Ricans, they dared not utter a
word because they were afraid of revenge. The seniors would put ten
dollars in their pocket just in case they came out of the elevators
and ran into a robber. They figured this money was part of paying
rent. Even if the robbers looked familiar, they wouldn’t dare
to identify them in case of revenge. By the 1980s, the situation had
improved. Police patrolled more. Underground gambling was closed and
gangster
activities
were lessened. Public safety improved. More police patrolled
government housings so crimes rates went down.
</p>
<p>
Q: How is the public safety in Chinatown now?</p>
<p>
Chu: It is getting worse recently. When mayor Giuliani was in office
for those few years, public security was best. The 5<sup>th</sup>
precinct also improved their services. There were more patrols and
more action against illegal gambling. The public safety was improved.</p>
<p>
Q: Why is public safety worse than the past few years?</p>
<p>
Chu: Perhaps after 9/11, more unemployed people tend to make money by
illegal means. Public safety is worse in the past two years.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: On the date of 9/11, where were you and what were you doing?</p>
<p>
Chu: In 2001, I had retired but I volunteered in the senior center.
On 9/11, we took the seniors for a trip to Long Wood Garden
(Pennsylvania). Our staff, Alan Tran and I, led the trip. The seniors
boarded the bus on 8:30am on Canal Street. The bus left at 8:35am or
8:40am. When the bus turned from Bowery onto Worth Street and Centre
Street at 8:45am, we saw a huge crowd running on the streets. Alan
asked, why were there so many people running? I said maybe they were
chasing after thieves. The bus went on. We saw that the tower of the
World Trade Center closest to us was on fire. The passengers and the
driver all shouted. The driver said it’s burning! I took a few
pictures with my camera because I thought it was similar to the
bombing of the World Trade Center’s basement back in the 1990s.
I could not imagine that it was an airplane hitting the building. The
bus doors and windows were all closed so we couldn’t hear the
noises, we only saw people running and the police cars and fire
engines. We thought it was the same kind of bombing as before, didn’t
think it was so serious. As our bus continued to pass thru Holland
Tunnel to Pennsylvania, we
talked about the previous bombing at World Trade
Center and said it was easier to rescue (because of the lower level).
I said maybe they need to have helicopters and drop some chemicals to
keep the fire under control since it was so high up. Once we came
out the tunnel, we saw an airplane so I added, “Here comes the
plane to put out the fire!” Everyone saw the plane. The plane
and our bus moved at different directions so we did not see the plane
again.
</p>
<p>
The driver had a son who was supposed to work at the World Trade
Center in the afternoon. He used his cellular phone to call his son
for updates. His son was watching television and speaking to our
diver. When the driver told us what was broadcasting on the
television, then we knew how serious it was. The fire was caused by a
plane hitting one of the towers, it was not a bombing. The plane that
we just saw after coming out of the tunnel was the plane that hit the
second World Trade tower. We only knew at that moment that terrible
things had happened and we were scared. When the bus finally arrived
at Long Wood Garden, we weren’t in the mood for sightseeing.
Soon, the bus driver suggested that we leave because the tunnel might
be closed. The highway was congested. After few hours, we could not
return to New York. The radio said all bridges and tunnels were
closed. We tried to return by Staten Island. The bridges were also
closed and cars in the highway were not moving at all. We stopped at
a place in New Jersey. The driver suggested that we take the Path
Train if they were running. Alan and I went to check. A policeman
passed by and said the Path Train was about to leave for New York
City. Alan and I returned to the bus and brought the seniors to
broad the train. The driver stayed with his bus. We brought the
seniors back to 34<sup>th</sup> Street in New York City. The seniors
then took the subways home. Everyone had a long day.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you or any of the seniors have friends and relatives working
in the World Trade Center?</p>
<p>
Chu: My eldest daughter worked in Water Street , near the World Trade
Center. She told me afterwards that she got out of the subway at 9am.
Every means of transport had
closed down. With no subway and no bus, she could not
return. Because she bought a condo at Brooklyn Heights, she walked
over the Brooklyn Bridge to get home. The other two daughters did not
work downtown and they had no problem. When we gathered later on,
many members told their stories. Some members who lived in Queens,
Brooklyn and uptown had to walk several hours home. More than ten
seniors who lived either at Queens or Brooklyn stayed overnight at
the senior center because no one could pick them up. They returned
home the next day. Not so many stayed overnight.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you call the senior center on 9/11, to ask the director for
instructions?</p>
<p>
Chu: We talked over the phone. I told the senior center that we had
arrived safely at the destination. At the same time, (I was informed
that) many members in the senior center saw the towers on fire and
collapsing. Many people in Chinatown saw it. They saw it at the
corner of Columbus Park and watched the tragedy as if it was a movie.
</p>
<p>
Q: How was the situation at the senior center after 9/11? Did you
come to Chinatown?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Chu: There was no transportation for one day. After that day, subway
and bus returned to normal schedule so people returned. Those who
lived far away didn’t return because of the transportation
uncertainty. In those days, there were fewer members at the senior
center. People from Queens, Brooklyn and uptown didn’t return.
</p>
<p>
Q: They did not show up because of transportation problems or other
problems?</p>
<p>
Chu: Transportation returned to normal but the seniors worried
something might happen and did not come.
</p>
<p>
Q: How did you feel?</p>
<p>
Chu: Me and the
seniors experienced wars so we were not as frightened by 9/11 attack
and explosion. We are old and not scared. We were only worried about
the transportation. We were concerned for our young generation. We
worried about the social unrest after 9/11 and the economic decline,
the effects on the younger generations’ jobs and employment.
The seniors worried that these kinds of situations would make their
children lose their jobs or lose money on their businesses. The
seniors themselves experienced wars, so emotionally they were not
scared by the changes.
</p>
<p>
Q: Which wars did you refer to?</p>
<p>
Chu: Our seniors went through World War II, many had experienced the
conflicts between (China’s) communist and Kuomintang struggle,
and the communist regime. Compared to these wars, this was minor.
</p>
<p>
Q: How did your senior center help the seniors? And help them to
discuss (this event)?</p>
<p>
Chu: After 9/11, the seniors were relatively calm. Some of them
worried that the business of their friends and relatives would be
affected. Some of them worried that their children would lose their
jobs. These were more indirect. The most direct effect was the air
pollution in Chinatown. Many weeks later, air quality in Chinatown
was terrible. There was a certain smell to it. There were lots of
floating pollutants in the air which directly affected our health.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did the government help?</p>
<p>
Chu: After 9/11, government reacted fast and established a 9/11
assistance center. Those in need could apply for air filters and air
conditioners. Those residents who lost economically after 9/11 were
also helped. Our seniors benefited from the policy. They could apply
for new air conditioners, air filters and rental assistance. The
benefits helped their lives and financial situation.
</p>
<p>
Q: How sufficient were the benefits?</p>
<p>
Chu: It was not necessary enough, but it wasn’t bad.
</p>
<p>
Q: You just mentioned that the seniors worried most about the younger
generations’ jobs and business. Did the government help the
younger generations?</p>
<p>
Chu: Yes, Chinatown established a development council to bring in
business. After 9/11, Chinatown was very quite. People in the other
boroughs such as Queens would not come to Chinatown. Business dropped
drastically. The government established a tourist promotion agency
with Chinatown business to promote Chinatown. A lot of performances
and activities were made to attract more tourists to our restaurants,
tourist agencies and other agencies. Business recovered to a large
scale and now Chinatown is almost as busy as before.
</p>
<p>
Q: Some seniors did not show up after 9/11. When did they return?</p>
<p>
Chu: After 2-3 weeks, the seniors came back because they felt
everything was normal again. The seniors were afraid of detours in
transportation. They did not know how to transfer. For example, they
used to take the 6 Train to Chinatown. If there was a detour or a
train did not show up, they did not know how to cope and they would
not come.
</p>
<p>
Q: Is this due to language barriers that the seniors did not know how
to transfer?</p>
<p>
Chu: Yes. It still is a problem. On weekends, less seniors come to
the senior center, especially from Brooklyn, where there is always
subway construction. The subway always had detours. The seniors could
not read the subway map or ask for help so they did not know how to
transfer. That’s why they don’t come to the senior center
during weekends.
</p>
<p>
Q: There are maps, flyers and notices available in Chinese languages
in Chinatown and Flushing. Would this help the seniors?</p>
<p>
Chu: They should but the seniors did not feel comfortable so they
wouldn’t show up. They would rather rest for a day.</p>
<p>
Q: Besides Chinatown, are there Senior Centers elsewhere?</p>
<p>
Chu: There are a lot of senior centers in Brooklyn and Queens,
especially in Queens. Some are managed by Chinese and others by
Americans. Many seniors are members of both Chinatown and Queens
senior centers.</p>
<p>
Q: If they had already moved to Queens and Brooklyn, why did they
come to the senior centers in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chu: Although some members moved to Queens and Brooklyn, many of
their friends and relatives are in Chinatown. At the same time, they
come to Chinatown to see their doctors, visit friends, or do
shopping.
</p>
<p>
Q: After 9/11, how did you know there were 9/11 services available?</p>
<p>
Chu: After 9/11, the government set up a special department to help
out victims of 9/11. An office was set up near where the old Chinese
American Bank was. They had news, flyers, and outreach to senior
centers. They explained their benefits to the residents of Lower
Manhattan, including housing assistance, air filters and related
welfare. The application procedures were simple. Applicants would
just go to Chinese American Bank on Park Row. They also sent staff to
our senior centers to explain and fill out forms. It was very
convenient.
</p>
<p>
Q: How complicated was the application form?</p>
<p>
Chu: Our staff was used to filling out forms for the seniors. The
applicants mainly needed proof of residence in Lower Manhattan.
Sufficient proofs were phone bills, Con Edison bills and rent
receipts.</p>
<p>
Q: Since a lot of seniors lived with their children, could they have
those proofs?</p>
<p>
Chu: The young people could also apply for the 9/11 benefit. Of
course many seniors lived with their children who suffered job or
business loss because of 9/11. Hence, a small business assistance
project was set up to subsidize the businessmen who suffered loss.
</p>
<p>
Q: What do you think of the business subsidy?</p>
<p>
Chu: I have heard that business was bad after 9/11. Some small
business received direct economic assistance and financial aid.
Hence, there were not many stores closed down due to 9/11’s bad
economy.
</p>
<p>
Q: You said that 9/11 was not so frightening compared to other wars.
What wars did you experience?</p>
<p>
Chu: During World War II, I was several years old and still living in
the village in Toishan County. I heard the machine guns and canister
explosions. My family brought me to safe shelters often. Some members
were older than me, some younger. Besides World War II, they
experienced (China’s) civil wars, or internal power struggles
of the Communist China or many wars before they finally came to
America. Hence, they thought 9/11 was only minor and were not as
frightened. The seniors were more worried about their children’s’
unemployment and business, family problems, and the heavy burden of
their youngsters.
</p>
<p>
Q: What kinds of family problems did they have? Can you give me an
example?</p>
<p>
Chu: For example, if the senior’s son and daughter-in-law were
unemployed. They would be bad moods and may get into arguments with
the senior. There was one senior who came to sit in front of the
senior center early in the morning, waiting for it to open and didn’t
leave until closing. After that, he still sat in the park for a long
time before going home. Because the son and daughter-in-law were
unemployed and the place they lived together was very small. He slept
in the living room so he had to open his bed at night and in the
morning. If he stayed at home for a longer time with the son, it was
easy to enter into an argument.
</p>
<p>
Q: Can they apply for government senior housing?</p>
<p>
Chu: We tried to help them to apply senior housing. The waiting list
was so long. Those who were lucky can get it pretty fast and some
have to be on waiting list. Some of them get notified to look at
housing immediately. If they didn’t mind the location, taking
the trains to mid-town, then it’s easier. But if they only
consider locations near Chinatown, whether it’s senior housing
or low-income housing, they have to wait for a long time.
</p>
<p>
Q: How long is the waiting list? Why such a long list?</p>
<p>
Chu: The waiting lists are so long because of too many applicants,
especially near Chinatown. We have a lot of seniors living in the
low-income housing on 5<sup>th</sup> Street and Avenue B.
</p>
<p>
Q: If they have to live in Chinatown, how long do they have to wait?
5 years? 10 years?</p>
<p>
Chu: Many years.</p>
<p>
Q: When you first arrived, a lot of seniors came from Toishan or they
were old immigrants. Have there been any changes? Where do the
current seniors come from?</p>
<p>
Chu: In 1960, when Mainland Chinatown was still a closed country, our
members came mainly from the Toishan and Four County (in Guangdong)
areas. After China established foreign relations with the US, more
immigrants came from Mainland China and Taiwan. Chinatown seniors are
mostly from Guangdong Province and they speak Cantonese. A few of
them speak Mandarin. If classified by occupation, immigrants from
Mainland have higher education level than the older immigrants.
Although this is the case, many of them still couldn’t find the
same type of jobs as before. For example, the people sent by CPC to
work as kitchen staff (in the senior center), many of them were
college graduated and were engineers, doctors, etc. But since their
occupations and qualifications in Mainland are not recognized in the
United States, they can only work in labor intensive work.
</p>
<p>
Q: Besides the language barrier, are there other barriers…?</p>
<p>
Chu: Yes.
</p>
<p>
Q: How many senior centers are there in Chinatown now?</p>
<p>
Chu: Chinatown has more senior centers. The old Chinatown includes
only Mott Street, Bayard Street and Mulberry Street. Anywhere past
Canal Street was Little Italy and many Italians lived there before.
There were only a few passers-by on Bowery and beyond Sun Sing
Theater (on East Broadway & Market St). Chinatown has expanded
several times. Many seniors come from East River (Lower East Side)
and Little Italy, which becomes part of Chinatown now.
</p>
<p>
Q: What are the new senior centers in Chinatown?
</p>
<p>
Chu: Besides the New York Chinatown Senior Citizen Center, the CPC
Project Open Door Senior Citizen Center, and the Greater Chinatown
Community Association that have existed for a long time, we have
LaGuardia Senior Center near Governiur
Hospital. This area used to be an American area and
now is considered Chinatown. We also have City Hall Senior Center,
which is a city agency operated senior center. It used to serve the
Americans and it is one of the oldest senior centers. Now it serves
mostly Chinese. Although Chinatown is not big, we have several senior
centers.
</p>
<p>
Q: Why are the seniors going back and forth between senior centers?</p>
<p>
Chu: The seniors like to have multiple memberships in different
senior centers. They have different preferences. Take lunch, for
example, everyone has different taste. If they are near Mulberry
Street then they will come to us; if they are closer to CPC Project
Open Door, they go there; if they are near City Hall or come by 4,5,6
subway, they will go to City Hall Senior Center. Members also like to
go the centers where the staff have similar backgrounds with them.
For example, City Hall Center attracts a lot of Mandarin speaking
members. Similar backgrounds come together. Seniors who come by B, D,
Q trains may go to CPC Project Open Door which is next to the (Grand
Street) train station. Some choose by activities and services. Some
people like dancing, Tai Chi, or Cantonese classics songs. Some like
our Mahjong games, singing, painting and calligraphy. Some come to us
when we have trips. Some like our dancing on Saturdays. Some attend
the activities of City Hall Senior Center. The seniors are very
active nowadays.
</p>
<p>
Q: In the past ten years, many Fuzhou immigrants have applied for
their parents to come here. Do you have a lot of Fuzhou senior
members?</p>
<p>
Chu: We don’t have many Fuzhou senior members, only a few
members. Perhaps they live further away from us. They are more
likely at LaGuardia Senior Center and less at our center. When they
attend our activities, they are able to communicate with our staff in
Mandarin.</p>
<p>
Q: Can the Fuzhou members communicate with the Cantonese or Toishan
members?</p>
<p>
Chu: Some members do not differentiate languages. Communication
depends on personality. Whether they speak Mandarin, Cantonese or
Fuzhou dialects, they can play mahjong, chess together. Some are
friendly. Some alienate themselves.
</p>
<p>
Q: Besides senior housing, are there other problems?</p>
<p>
Chu: Housing is a major problem. Older immigrant members do not have
financial and medical care problems. They have retirement benefits.
If they have financial problems, they can apply for welfare and food
stamps. New members have more problems. It is more difficult for them
to get benefits in a short period of time; they have to work for a
number of years first. CPC always sends us some seniors who are new
immigrants in their 60’s because they haven’t met the
income requirement to apply for medical insurance. Because of
government policy and restrictions, we cannot help them.
</p>
<p>
Q: What do you think Chinatown can do to help these seniors?
</p>
<p>
Chu: In the past recent years, Chinatown has many social agencies
trying to help these new immigrants, such as the Chinese Consolidated
Benevolent Association and Chinatown Manpower Project, Inc., which
provide English or employment training classes, free citizenship
classes and welfare applications. There are more services for Chinese
than in the past.
</p>
<p>
Q: Are these services for seniors and other age groups?</p>
<p>
Chu: They are for all, indiscriminate of their ages.</p>
<p>
Q: How do you want Chinatown to change? How can Chinatown help the
elderly?</p>
<p>
Chu: First, I wish that more low income housing will be built for the
people. The economic structure has changed drastically from a few
thousand garment factories to only a few. The door for immigrant
women to work in a garment industry is almost closed. We have more
stores but not skilled training for new immigrants. I wish more
social agencies like the Chinatown Manpower Project or CPC to provide
more employment training classes, to enable more new immigrants to
get training so they can integrate into the society and find jobs.
Once they have a better standard of living, then they get to do other
things.
</p>
<p>
Q: Thank you, Mr. Chu</p>
<p>
Chu: You’re welcome.
</p>
<p>
(end of tape)</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:朱先生,可以講一下你的中文名及英文名?</p>
<p>朱:我叫朱祖華,英文名叫Joseph Wah Chu。</p>
<p>問:你是幾時出生,在那裡出生?</p>
<p>朱:我在1933年在中國廣東台山出生,在鄉下讀過書,畢業之後,就去廣州讀中學,解放後到香港。</p>
<p>問:你在香港住了多久?何時來美國?</p>
<p>朱:我在香港住了10多年,做過工,讀過中學,在聯合書院讀過4年書,跟著做了幾年老師。1965年來到美國,先到三藩市住了一年,1966年來到紐約(New York)。</p>
<p>問:來到紐約之後,曾經做什麼?</p>
<p>朱:我在三藩市的時候,曾經做過茶水(busboy),然後在百貨公司(department store)做幾個月,來到紐約第一份工作是在陳家園餐館做茶水(busboy)。</p>
<p>問:當時陳家園在那裡?</p>
<p> 朱:陳家園在中城(midtown),當時唐人街餐館的規模很小,沒有金豐﹑銀宮餐館這麼大,當時唐中餐館之中,陳家園算是最大。</p>
<p>問:大到有多少人做工,主要客人是什麼人?</p>
<p>朱:廚房10多人做工,樓面餐廳有10多人,以外國人為多,中國人不是很多。</p>
<p>問:你在餐館做了多久?或是之後你是否轉了行?</p>
<p>朱:我在餐館做茶水(busboy)只做了幾個月,因為想偷師學到企檯(待應,waiter),做了幾個月,我的朋友在芝加哥開餐館,叫我去幫手,我就去了芝加哥在那裡做企檯,做了大半年。</p>
<p>問:你去了芝加哥之後,你又回來紐約?</p>
<p>朱:是的,大概1967年回來紐約(New York),在餐館做企檯,因為那時太太又來了,我們在1968年結婚,繼續在紐約餐館做企檯。</p>
<p>問:為什麼你選擇在紐約,而不選擇留在芝加哥?</p>
<p>朱:因為紐約有很多朋友﹑同事及同學,在香港時候已是很好朋友,所以我選擇來紐約做工,同時紐約工作機會好一點,所以我經過比較三藩市及芝加哥等,選擇來紐約。</p>
<p>問:你是否在餐館做很久?</p>
<p> 朱:也不是很久,才兩﹑三年。之後找到老番公司做工,星期一至五,周末仍然到餐館做工。</p>
<p>問:你的老番公司是什麼公司?你當時做什麼工作?</p>
<p>朱:是在電器公司的辦公室幫忙,時間非常好,朝九晚五,之後到唐人餐館做企檯,當時不單是我這樣搏命(努力),那些年份的工人一星期做七天工,工資不是高,很低,且要養家,真的要做兩份工才足夠,那時一星期做7天,周末那份收入不用報稅,所以那時一星期做7天工作,像其他華人一樣搏命。</p>
<p>問:當時的福利如何?</p>
<p>朱:在老番公司做工依然有周末及醫藥燕梳,福利不錯,唐人餐館沒有這些福利。有家人的醫藥已算不錯了,生活都滿好的。</p>
<p>問:你結婚後有多少個子女?</p>
<p>朱:我1968年結婚之後,1970年後第一個女出生,跟著1972年第2個女出生,197幾年第3個女出生,一直幾年做老番公司做工,做到1974年遇到能源危機,經濟蕭條,很多公司關門,很多人失業,公司解僱(layout)我。剛巧長島大學(Long Island) 有雙語教育開放,所以我就去報名讀書至1976年,畢業之後到新澤西州(New Jersey)一間公司做工,然後1978年來華埠老人中心做工。</p>
<p> 問:你初來華埠老人中心做工怎樣?那時的老人中心叫什麼名字?</p>
<p>朱:老人中心叫華埠老人聯合中心,因為開創初期,老人中心由5個社區團體合辦,華策會是其中一個,所以改名叫老人聯合中心。1974年開始,在聖安得烈教堂(St. Andrew)租個土庫開辦,1978年搬到茂比利街70號,剛搬來時我就到此做工。</p>
<p>問:老人中心由5個團體合辦,除了華策會外,其他4個機構是什麼?</p>
<p>朱:一個叫華埠服務社﹑華人服務社﹑華埠協進會﹑華僑福社(華僑社會福利社)。還有….。</p>
<p>問:我們將會查考一下。</p>
<p>問:聖安得烈教堂(St. Andrew)在那裡?</p>
<p>朱:聖安得烈教堂(St. Andrew)在空孔樓(Municipal Building)對面。</p>
<p>問:即大會堂(City Hall)對面?</p>
<p>朱:是的,離華埠不遠,但小路很難行,耆老從華埠中心區走過去比較危險。同時小路很窄,所以會員不多。</p>
<p> 到1978年搬了過來,到茂比利街70號,(會員)人數增加很多。</p>
<p>問:那你開始工作時,老人中心人數有多少?老人從那裡來?</p>
<p> 朱:那是老華僑大多數從台山來,每日只供應百多份餐,沒有那麼多職員,廚房只有幾個工人,辦公室職員只有3個,同時有兩個兼職幫忙登記,職員數目很少。</p>
<p>問:你的職位是做什麼?</p>
<p>朱:初來時做社會服務(social work)。</p>
<p>問:社會服務是做什麼工作?</p>
<p>朱:幫老人家入會﹑填表﹑讀信﹑回答福利問題﹑及少許心理輔導。</p>
<p>問:當時老人有什麼福利,同現在有什麼不同?</p>
<p>朱:那時有醫療補助(Medicaid)﹑糧食券(Foodstamp)﹑申請老人屋,沒有現在那麼好。那時的老人似乎比較單純,沒有現在這麼多問題,諸如家庭糾紛。同時,現在很多申請福利,老人屋申請到批准的等候期很長,要很多年才批准,但現在的福利比較好,如糧食券(Foodstamp),但比較難申請到。我記得60年代老人初來到埗會馬上有綠卡,即可以申請福利,但現在要住幾年才有資格申請福利。</p>
<p>問:那時候怎樣才知道有福利?是看報紙﹑口傳或是其他?</p>
<p>朱:那時是老人中心的職員教他們申請福利,同時社會局派專人講解,<br>
同時中華公所也有社會局的職員駐守。那時老人大部份都是獨居,到現在也有不少人獨居,華埠的人口不多。會員的子女來到美國不久就遷居別的地方居住或做工,因交通方便搬到別的地方,老人會員不願跟隨子女搬遷。因此他們居屋環境很差,樓宇老舊,老鼠蟑螂很多,缺水缺暖氣,房屋問題頗嚴重。雖然居住環境差,但老人沒有怨言,因為他們喜歡住在華埠,我們有時要聯絡他們的業主,因為沒有水沒電,或天冷沒暖氣,聯絡屋主。如業主不願意開暖氣,還要替他們打電話向政府投訴。那時社會問題不算多。</p>
<p>問:當時除了你的老人中心以外,還有其他的老人中心嗎?</p>
<p>朱:除了老人聯合中心,華埠還有安老會﹑還有一間人瑞老人中心,安老會可以算是最老資格,由天主教堂主辦。其次是人瑞中心,在1972年已經有,也是由華策會主辦。</p>
<p>問:這三個老人中心有什麼不同?</p>
<p>朱:先講安老會,由教堂主辦,屬於私人,沒有政府的經費或津貼。人瑞中心由華策會主辦,屬老人局。老人聯合中心起初時不屬於老人局,是屬於人力資源局,經營了10多年,到90年代人力資源局交還老人局管理,同樣屬於政府經費,但經營手法有少許不同。</p>
<p>問:你說當時老人中心有百多名會員,現在又增加了多少?</p>
<p> 朱:註冊會員有2000至3000名,但每天來活動的有幾百人,午餐只有百多份,有些會員不吃午餐,只來活動,如打麻雀﹑唱歌﹑運動或耍太極,只有300多人活動。現在每天至少有500多人活動。</p>
<p>問:老人中心有什麼活動?</p>
<p>朱:最大的活動項目是午餐,有中樂組﹑歌詠團﹑太極班﹑英文班﹑棋藝社,逢星期六有舞蹈班,除此活動以外,還有國畫﹑書法班及詩詞班,每個星期都有數字遊戲,每日有新聞講座。天氣冷時活動較少,天暖時還有旅行,多數是免費的。</p>
<p>問:你們多數去那裡?</p>
<p>朱:我們多數去一天遊,早出晚歸。去公園(park)﹑或特別旅遊景點,如大熊山,清早去,晚上回來,會員都頗喜歡。</p>
<p>問:會員多數從那裡來?</p>
<p>朱:以前大部份在唐人街居住,現在很多來自埠上(uptown),布碌崙﹑皇后區,甚至史丹頓島都有。現在的會員很活躍,和1969年的會員不一樣,那時會員除了打麻雀外,其他什麼都不喜歡,很少去旅行,寧願困在唐人街。</p>
<p>問:現在的老人為什麼住在外面?</p>
<p> 朱:現在的老人家住在外面,因為唐人街的居住的地方爛,且地方飽和,初來的時候,唐人街最好的住宅區在橋景大樓,那是孔子大廈仍未建築,那裡只是一片爛地,孔子大廈在197幾年興建成,唐人街才有些好住宅區。初來的唐人亞姆在年青時是衣廠工人,大部份是23-25工會會員,女工在衣廠或衣館工作,男的多數從事餐館或雜貨店,沒有現時那麼多工作種類。</p>
<p>問:你剛才說現在的老人問題比較複雜,是什麼樣的複雜?可舉例說明其中一個問題嗎?</p>
<p>朱:所謂難搞也不怎樣特別,譬如家庭問題,以前的家庭配搭很單純,年青夫婦的孩子讀書很乖,曾經美國報紙讚揚華人家庭父慈子孝,又乖。後來移民政策開放,移民多了,家庭轉趨複雜,後生一輩不那麼走正途,華埠社會轉變,多了賭場,多了幫派,弄到家庭複雜了。同時因為申請來美國的條件更嚴格,有些偷渡,有些申請旅遊來留下,沒有回去,有些利用結婚的辦法,有些真結婚,有些假結婚。我們老人會也有很多亞伯幫人做假結婚,有很多有關假結婚的個案。曾經幾個亞伯因假結婚問題搞出麻煩,曾經幫女士找到居留,之後被人一腳踢開;有些未取到綠卡便搞出麻煩。</p>
<p> 同時有些子女申請老人家來,老人家發覺來了美國和想像的不同,本以為美國遍地黃金,很容易找工作,來到後發覺居住的環境比以前的大陸更差,找工作也不如預計容易,整天所做的工找不到以前的好工作,譬如以前在大陸是醫生﹑工程師,或者做老師,移民到美國不能幹回以前的職業,只能做在餐館﹑衣廠﹑<br>
雜貨店工作﹑或洗盤碗﹑等低賤工作。經濟環境又不利,家庭中很多磨擦,老人家很多問題,和子媳相處不來,和孫兒更合不來,同時居住環境狹窄,有些會員跟我說,他們晚上要開床,早上要收好這張床,有些和孫兒一起睡,到孫兒長大些,又不能同睡了。有些在廳中睡,不方便,諸如此類很多投訴。這是社會問題,希望政府幫忙加添資源。現在老人居住問題很嚴重。</p>
<p>問:華埠有沒有老人屋,讓他們住?</p>
<p>朱:華埠有一間老人屋,在巴士打街有一間松柏大廈,給老人家居住。距離遠一點有幾間老人屋,但華埠老人屋早已滿額,要等候很久才可以入住。以松柏大廈為例,樓宇建成後,申請填表時有5000人申請,但實際只有88個單位,等候名單中有些是1000多號或2000多號,你看要等多久?所以住屋問題嚴重。</p>
<p> 當然有些政府樓距離華埠不遠,因為以前治安不好,不敢入住,或很早要回家,入夜後不敢外出。因為早出或晚歸都會遇到打劫。現在的治安比較好。那時在1970年代治安比較差,有波多黎各的西語裔人打劫,不敢出聲,如果報警,怕被報復,那時老人口袋裡有十多元,若出電梯,遇打劫時,說當交租!同時覺得劫匪臉孔熟悉,也不敢出聲,怕被報復。到1980年代,情況有改變,警方加強治安,封殺地下賭場,幫派活動收歛,<br>
治安改善了。政府樓又加添了警察巡邏,劫案減少了。</p>
<p>問:華埠的治安現在怎樣?</p>
<p>朱:最近差了些。以前朱利安尼市長治理幾年後,治安非常好,就算第五分區拿的宗旨也非常好,巡邏密,打擊非法賭場,執行得好,治安改善了。</p>
<p>問:這幾年治安轉壞,為什麼呢?</p>
<p>朱:可能是9/11後,經濟轉差,人們失業多了,多了挺而走險的人。故此這兩年治安差了。</p>
<p>問:9/11當天,你在那裡?你在做什麼?</p>
<p>朱:2001年我已經退休,我在老人中心義務工作,9/11那天,我們剛好約定老人們去長木公園旅行,我和一位較年輕的職員陳亞倫(Alan)一起帶隊旅行,在8時30分在堅尼路上車,8時35分至40分開車,在包厘街轉窩富街時,到中央街,約在45分,看見街上很多人連走帶跑,陳姓職員問為什麼這麼多人,我說估計是捉賊,車再轉彎,很多人望見世貿近我們那幢樓上起火,全車人連司機都起哄,司機話「上面起火了」,我拿起照相機拍了幾幅,以為好像是199幾年世貿樓下的爆炸,並不以為是飛機撞,因為車門緊閉,我們聽不到聲音,只見多人忽然在跑,又見消防車及警車鳴鳴作響,才估計可能是以前同樣遭人爆炸,但也不覺得特別嚴重。車繼續行,經過荷蘭隧道(Holland Tunnel)到賓州(Pennsylvania),<br>
一直行還回憶以前世貿中心爆炸的事,還討論到以前救火比較易,現在高層起火,我還說可能要用直昇機或飛機才救到火,可能要抛下化學品。過了隧道,看見飛機,我還評論說,這飛機一定是來救火的了。大家看見飛機與我們的巴士飛往不同的方向,就看不見了。</p>
<p> 司機知道兒子在下午將會往世貿返工,打手提電話問兒子情況,兒子正在看電視,和司機講電話,司機向我們轉述電視的畫面,才知道事態嚴重,原來第一次起火,是飛機撞入大廈,不是爆炸。我們出了隧道看的飛機原來也撞到第二座世貿中心了。我們才知事態嚴重,知驚。巴士到長木公園,我們沒有心情玩。一會兒,司機提議離開,因為恐怕不能過隧道。誰知在高速公路塞車,跑了幾小時也未能到紐約。聽收音機說所有橋樑及隧道已被封鎖,我們嘗試從史丹頓島回來,那些小橋也封閉了,汽車大排長龍,沒有辦法行走,隧道及橋也關閉了。我們去到新澤西(New Jersey)一處地方停下來,司機建議我們到長途火車(Path Train)站看看是否有車,我和亞倫去查,剛剛有警察經過,有些人說Path Train剛剛有一班要開了,我們及愛倫回去報告,我帶了幾十名老人離開,司機說要守著巴士過夜,我帶了老人家乘Path Train到紐約34街,老人們各自乘地車(subway)回家,各人都經過很長的一天。</p>
<p>問:當時你或老人家有沒有親人在世貿中心做工?</p>
<p>朱:大女在水街(Water街)近世貿中心工作,事後,她憶述說,早上9時從地車上來,什麼都封閉了,<br>
沒有地車,也沒有巴士,她不能走回頭路。因為她買了公寓(condo)在布碌崙高地(Brooklyn Heights),她步行過布碌崙橋走回家。其他兩名女兒不在下城(downtown)做工,沒有遇到問題。我們回來以後,很多會員講述其經歷,9/11當晚有些會員在皇后區或布碌崙住,在埠上住的要行幾個小時才回到家中,有十多個沒有人接,又在布碌崙或皇后區住,於是留在老人中心過夜,第二天才回去,只有十多人在大廳過夜,人不算多。</p>
<p>問:當日9/11旅行時,你有沒有打電話回老人中心,問主任當時如何處理?</p>
<p>朱:我們通過電話,我告訴老人中心我們平安抵達目的地,沒有危險。同時華埠老人中心雖然很多會員目擊大廈起火及倒塌,因為在哥倫布公園的角落可以望到世貿中心,華埠很多人見到,如同電影般看到慘劇。</p>
<p>問:過了9/11之後幾天,老人中心的情況如何?你自己有沒有來華埠?</p>
<p>朱:那時沒有車,休息了一天,但過了一天,恢復地車及巴士,大家又回來了,有些老人住在較遠處不敢前來,恐怕交通有問題,故此那些日子來中心活動的人數較少,在皇后區﹑布碌崙及埠上的會員不敢來。</p>
<p>問:是否因為交通問題及其他問題?</p>
<p>朱:交通算恢復,但老人心中恐怕有其他問題,故此不敢來。</p>
<p>問:那你自己的感覺如何?</p>
<p> 朱:我和老人們曾經經過戰亂,對於9/11的襲擊及爆炸不感覺受到驚嚇,而是年齡大不怕。所驚是交通問題,所怕的是擔心後輩,驚9/11之後社會不安定,經濟受到影響,我們的後輩做生意或打工的受影響,情況使老人家擔心子女沒有工作,做生意的生意一落千丈。</p>
<p> 老人家本身心理上經過戰亂,處變不驚。</p>
<p>問:你所指的戰亂是什麼?</p>
<p>朱:是,我們的老人家有經過第二次世界大戰﹑國共內亂﹑很多人經過共產黨統治,所以講起來,這些屬於小兒科。</p>
<p>問:你們老人中心有沒有辦法幫助他們,和他們傾談?</p>
<p>朱:9/11後,老人家很平靜,有些老人說,他們的親戚朋友或家人的生意受影響,有些擔心子女失去工作,這是大謂事(一般人都遇到的事)。但是最直接影響唐人街的華人是空氣的污染。之後很多個星期,唐人街的空氣污染,聞到一股味,空氣中有很多渣滓在飄浮,這些直接影響人們的健康。</p>
<p>問:政府有沒有幫助你們?</p>
<p>朱:9/11之後,政府算是反應頗快,成立9/11救濟的機構,讓需要的人申請空氣清新機及冷氣機,或者因為9/11後經濟有損失者,成立機構幫助華埠居民,我們很多老人家都受惠很多,因為可以申請新的冷氣機及空氣清新機,又可補助租金,對生活及經濟幫助很大。</p>
<p> 問:這些福利是否足夠?</p>
<p>朱:說不上足不足夠,但算是不錯。</p>
<p>問:你剛才說老人家主要是擔心子女,怕經濟不好,或失業,你覺得政府有沒有幫助老人的家人(後生)?</p>
<p>朱:有,我們成立機構發展華埠經濟,幫助很大,9/11後華埠市面水靜河飛,其他紐約市的居民(如在皇后區等)都不敢來華埠,生意一落千丈。到政府成立觀光機構推展華埠,風光之後,與商家合作,搞很多節目,吸引遊客,餐館﹑旅行社和其他社區團體,搞很多活動,吸引遊客,所以華埠生意恢復很多,至今和以前差不多。</p>
<p>問:有些老人停了沒有來,到後來那時候才回來?</p>
<p>朱:遲了二﹑三個星期,老人又來了,因為他覺得正常了。老人家最怕地車改道,不知如何轉車,譬如6號車原本來到華埠,如要轉車,沒有車,就不知道怎轉車,就不會來了。</p>
<p>問:老人不懂轉車,是不是因為語言問題?</p>
<p>朱:是,到現在也是,因為星期六﹑星期日,比較少人來老人中心。尤其布碌崙那邊,因為在周末修理車路,地車經常改道,老人不懂看地圖,又不懂問人,不懂得轉車,所以周末較少來老人中心。</p>
<p> 問:在華埠及法拉盛有中文地圖,單張,通告等,這會不會對老人家有效?</p>
<p>朱:其實也有效,但是他們心裡覺得不放心,就不來了,在家休息一天。</p>
<p>問:除了唐人街以外,有沒有其他老人中心可以走走?</p>
<p>朱:在布碌崙及皇后區有很多老人中心,特別在皇后區,有唐人辦的,也有老番辦的,很多會員既參加我們唐人街的,又參加皇后區的。</p>
<p>問:既然他們已經住皇后區的,但為什麼他們又來唐人街的老人中心?</p>
<p>朱:雖然有些會員搬到皇后區及布碌崙,但很多時他們的親戚朋友都在唐人街,同時以前看的醫生都在唐人街,所以探朋友,看醫生,或買餸,都來唐人街。</p>
<p>問:我想問,9/11之後,你如何知道有9/11的服務?</p>
<p>朱:9/11之後不久,政府成立機構,專門幫助9/11受害居民,在舊的中美銀行成立一間辦事處,登報紙﹑派單張﹑派員到老人中心﹑講解如何幫助下東城居民,提供房屋補助﹑空氣清新機﹑福利等,申請手續很方便,去舊中美銀行,柏路那裡。他們派職員來,到老人中心講解,申請,辦事,很方便。</p>
<p>問:你覺得那些表格難填嗎?</p>
<p> 朱:我們的職員時時都幫老人家填表,今次最主要展示到實質證據證明居住在下東城,需要的證據包括電話單﹑電費單﹑租單,就是足夠證據。</p>
<p>問:很多老人家和子女及孫兒同住,老人是否能夠提交以上證明?</p>
<p>朱:後生也可以申請9/11福利。當然有老人家和子女同住,很多後生也失業,或生意一落千丈,所以成立小生意補助,幫助那些生意不好,經濟上需要支持者。</p>
<p>問:有沒有聽過小生意補助是否有效?</p>
<p>朱:我聽人說,9/11之後生意不好,有些為小生意直接提供經濟協助,有些貸款,所以唐人街因為9/11後經濟不好而關門也不算很多。</p>
<p>問:你曾說你和老人家經過戰爭,所以覺得9/11也不那麼驚,你經過什麼戰亂?</p>
<p>朱:第二次世界大戰時,我仍在台山鄉下,只有幾歲,那時時時聽到機關槍及槍炮聲音,家人時時帶我去避難。我們的會員有些不及我老,有些比我老,因為他們除了世界大戰外,還經過內戰,其後在共產黨統治之下,經過多次內亂。然後才到美國,所以他們說9/11事件屬於小兒科,不那麼驚惶,最擔心反而是後生失業,生意不好,令家庭經濟負擔慘重,家庭出現問題,只擔心這方面。</p>
<p>問:那些人家庭有什麼問題,你可否舉例?</p>
<p> 朱:譬如子媳失業,因而心情不好,可能與老人家產生磨擦。有些老人和子孫同住,因為失業心情不好,或許有爭拗。譬如那時有個會員未天光就跑來老人中心等開門,等關門才離開,還要到公園坐一會兒。因為子媳失業,自己住的地方狹少,在廳中睡醒後將床叠起,就要出來,很夜才回家,如果太久停留在家,兒子失業又在家,就容易起爭拗衝突。</p>
<p>問:有沒有辦法為這些老人家申請政府屋?</p>
<p>朱:我們試過為他們申請老人屋,都要等候很久,有幸運的很快申請到。有些只發出輪候號碼。有些一申請就收到回覆,叫看房子。如果不計較那一區就比較容易,在中城要搭車比較容易。如有些會員要住在唐人街附近,則無論老人屋或政府樓,都要等候很久。</p>
<p>問:大概多久?是什麼原因?</p>
<p>朱:因為人多,等候名單很長,尤其唐人街附近的更長。很多在第5街B大道附近的政府樓,我們有很多老人家入住。</p>
<p>問:如果他們要住唐人街,要等多久?5年10年?</p>
<p>朱:要很多年。</p>
<p>問:你剛來時很多老人家是台山人或老華僑,現在有沒有轉變?會員來自那裡?</p>
<p> 朱:1960年代,大陸仍未開放,會員大多是台山及四邑人士。後來大陸開放,較多移民由大陸及台灣來。唐人街老人中心大部份都是廣東人,大部份講廣東話,少部份講國語。以工作的職業分,由大陸來的文化水平較老華僑高,縱然如此,他們不能找到原來的專業工作。例如華策會派來幫廚房做工的工人,其中很多是大學生﹑做工程師﹑或懂醫學,但因為在大陸的訓練不能銜接到這些,其學歷在美國不獲得承認,只能從事體力勞動的工作。</p>
<p>問:除了語言之外,還有其他……。</p>
<p>朱:是。</p>
<p>問:現在華埠有多少個老人中心?</p>
<p>朱:現在華埠多了幾個老人中心,以前所謂華埠,只包括勿街﹑擺也街及茂比利街的範圍;過了堅尼路就算意大利區,住滿了意大利人;到包厘街那邊晚上少人行;新聲戲院那邊晚上少人行。現在華埠大了幾倍,很多會員來自東河以下及小意大利區,亦變成華人的世界。</p>
<p>問:新的老人中心是那幾間?,</p>
<p>朱:除了聯合老人中心;人瑞﹑及安老會以外,現在加入的有高雲尼醫院附近有康樂老人中心,<br>
以前屬於老番區,現在是華埠。另耆英會以是市政府直接辦的老人中心,叫大會堂老人中心(City Hall Senior Center)當時服務西人,資格最老,現在會員絕大部份是華人會員。華埠雖然地方不大,但有幾個老人中心。</p>
<p>問:為什麼會員會在不同老人中心之間走來走去?</p>
<p>朱:老人中心會員多數加入幾個會,因為各人口味不同。譬如吃午餐,各人口味不同。靠近茂比利街到聯合老人中心,靠近人瑞的去人瑞,以前耆英會在City Hall 附近,乘4,5,6號車的人喜歡去。還有那裡主辦的人及會員的背景相近的相聚一起,如耆英會講國語的親戚朋友聚在同一間老人中心,吸引國語人。人瑞的會員近格蘭街地鐵站上落車。有些老人喜歡聯合﹑人瑞或耆英會的餐,各適其式。同時,可供參加的活動,有些喜歡舞蹈﹑太極及粵曲,亦有喜歡我們老人中心的麻雀﹑唱戲﹑繪畫及書法,所以喜歡到處走。又譬如到我處舉辦旅行,星期六參加舞蹈,又參加耆英會各自的活動,現在的會員非常活躍,到處走。</p>
<p>問:近10年福州移民多了,他們也申請了父母來到這裡,你的中心是否很多福州老人會員?</p>
<p>朱:我們沒有很多福州老人,只有少數,可能我們離開他們較遠,可能較多在康樂老人中心,較少在我們的中心。他們參加我們的活動時,可以和講國語的職員溝通。</p>
<p>問:他們是否能夠和廣東台山的會員溝通?</p>
<p> 朱:有些會員沒有語言區分,很視乎人的性格心理。講國語﹑講廣東話或福州話的可以一起打麻雀﹑下棋,有些相處很融洽,有些則很隔閡。</p>
<p>問:除了需要老人屋外,還有其他問題嗎?</p>
<p>朱:房屋問題是最主要的。舊會員經濟及醫藥沒有問題,他們有退休金﹑如有困難,可申請補助金及糧食券。最有問題是新移民老人,因為申請福利比較困難,來了短時期並沒有這些福利,要先做工一段時間。所以華策會派來的老人工多是60多歲的新移民,因為沒有入息及醫藥福利的資格,因為政府政策所限,資格所限,我們也無能為力。</p>
<p>問:你覺得華埠能夠做什麼,來幫助這些老人家?</p>
<p>朱:華埠近年來很多社區機構對這些新移民提供幫助,如中華公所﹑人力中心提供英文班或訓練班,免費入籍申請﹑福利申請,比以前較多為華人服務。</p>
<p>問:這為老人家或其他年齡都有?</p>
<p>朱:為所有人,不分年齡。</p>
<p>問:你期望唐人街有什麼改變?華埠又可以如何幫助他們?</p>
<p>朱:第一,我們希望興建更多低入息的住宅區。近年社會轉型,以前幾千間衣廠到現在所剩無幾,華裔女工喪失了衣廠工作的出路,現在多了一些店舖及公司,沒有特別技能的新移民少了做工的機會。我們希望人力中心或華策會提供更多的職業訓練,讓沒有技能的新移民可以受訓工作,融入社會,找到一份工作,使生活安定,才能開展其他的事。</p>
<p>問:多謝你,朱生。</p>
<p>朱:不用客氣。</p>
<p>(完)</p>
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Joseph Chu
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transcription
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interview
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Tony Wang
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-04-01
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
Sino Broadcast
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: Well, today is April 1<sup>st</sup>,
2004. I’m sitting in the office of Tony Wong, here at Sino
Television on Broadway. Tony, let’s start off in the present.
Tell us a little bit about what Sino television is and what you do
here.</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, Sino Television has
been in operations for the past six years. We started off in
Flushing, Queens, actually. First we started on one channel, Channel
78. It’s a 24/7 Chinese language TV station. Then, after two
years, when Time Warner roll out its digital platform, we were given
two more channels, and they’re all on digital format. So right
now we move our operation back to Manhattan, because we have a radio
station here as well, also in Chinese language.</p>
<p>By locating these two
properties here, we thought that we could utilize our resources
better and serve our Chinese public better.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. Well, we’re going
to have plenty of time to talk more about your work and the role that
I know Sino Television has played in the Chinese community. But
first, we want to learn about you, as an individual. Have you always
been interested in media? What was your background?<br><br>Wong:
Yeah, I have always been interested in the media. First of all, I was
born and grew up in Hong Kong. I came here to study broadcasting. I
got my Bachelor’s Degree in Eastern Washington State University
in the West Coast, and I came here for my graduate study. And I was
very, very fortunate that right after graduation I found a job with
WNBC, Channel 4. And I spent a lot of years at NBC, and I have never
taken up any other professions, other than in communications. It was
either in television or on radio, or in marketing in the media.</p>
<p>
Q: And what year was
it when you first arrived in America?</p>
<p>
Wong: I arrived here, I believe
it was September 1<sup>st</sup>, 1971.</p>
<p>
Q: Wow. A long time ago.
[laughter] And did you have relatives in America?</p>
<p>
Wong: No, no, no. I didn’t.
I had, actually, no. I went to a very small town, Spokane Washington.
I didn’t know a single soul. But I was very, very, fortunate.
You know, I had a college professor that didn’t know me but
they were very kind people and they played as a host family, and so
when I first came here, I stayed with him, and he was also in the
business as well. He was a professor teaching journalism, but he was
also a local anchor person at a local TV station. So, I can say that
personally and professionally I’ve been involved with the media
almost all my entire life in the States.
</p>
<p><a name="here"></a>
Q: So when you were in Hong
Kong, now, were your family always in Hong Kong, or did they come
from China, or elsewhere?</p>
<p>
Wong: My families were always in
Hong Kong, yeah. Even my parents, they, as far as I know, they
claimed they were born in Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>
Q: And you didn’t have
British citizenship?
</p>
<p>
Wong: At that time, I had a
British passport. But whether that is considered a British
citizenship, I don’t know. I think, shortly after I got married
here, I and my wife traveled to London, I was still holding a British
passport, and I believe I still had to apply for a visa to get into
London. So I don’t think that is a British citizenship.</p>
<p>
Q: And you didn’t consider
going to school in England instead of America?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, not that I didn’t
want to, I think at that time the general consensus was that going to
England was too expensive. And I grew up in a very poor family. I
mean, the
fact that I could come here was a miracle itself.
I was able to find a college that even for out of state students I
think at that time it was like three thousand dollars, everything
included, room and board and college tuition. So, it’s a matter
of necessity rather than preference. If you ask me what would I have
prefer, I probably at that time, I probably would have said London
because I think a degree from England was worth more than a degree
from the United States, you know.</p>
<p>
Q: And what did your family do
in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>
Wong: My mother---my father pass
away when I was eight years old. My mother had four children. My
mother owned a vegetable store, like a stand. I basically grew up on
the street there.</p>
<p>
Q: So very working class.</p>
<p>
Wong: Very. Very. Extremely.
Yeah.</p>
<p>
Q: And when you decided to come
to America, did you know already you wanted to pursue a career in
media?</p>
<p>
Wong: Yes, Absolutely. First of
all, I always [coughs], even when I was a kid, I always dream of
going abroad, you know, and the fact that I wanted to go into the
media is because at that time I wanted to be a camera person, that
maybe I can afford to travel to different parts of the world, and go
either photo shooting or movie shooting, but I never get a chance to
do that. But I’m doing something that is related to production.
</p>
<p>
Q: But Hong Kong in the ‘70s,
as far as television, only has several networks---</p>
<p>
Wong: Only one. TVB.</p>
<p>
Q:---TVB. And like---</p>
<p>
Wong: I don’t even, at
that time I don’t think TVB, no---</p>
<p>
Q: ATV didn’t exist
yet?<br><br>Wong: No, ATV didn’t exist. I think it was just
TVB. Like any kid, I thought that when I finish my study here then I
would go back and be a “big time” director or whatever,
you know, but life takes on different turns.</p>
<p>
Q: Did your mother encourage you
to pursue this line of profession?<br><br>Wong: No, not really. No.
I think my mother was too busy to, you know, not that she didn’t
take care of us. I think she tried very hard to take care of us. She
worked very hard to support the family, and so a lot of decision was
really left with us. I picked a school, I make my, whatever
arrangement, you know. But she didn’t think that it was
necessary for me to go away. She felt that there are always
opportunities if I really work on it. You know, even back in Hong
Kong, if I wanted to do something, if I really put my mind to it, I
can still make it. <br><br>But then, I have a different agenda. I
think that learning something is one thing, but to travel to another
part of the world and really experience it is another. And I think I
made a very good choice.</p>
<p>
Q: How did you support yourself?
I mean, three thousand is nothing in today’s world, but in
1971---</p>
<p>
Wong: It was still quite a lot
of money. I think in the first year, before I came, my uncle, my
mother’s brother, actually, he kind of support me initially.
And once I got here, I immediately took a job as a dishwasher at
college, and then I think after six months or so, I took another job
working at the library, in addition to being a dishwasher. Then at
night, after being a dishwasher at the cafeteria at college, then at
night I would take maybe two
or three nights a week I would
work at a local restaurant to be a dishwasher again.</p>
<p>
And then, in the summer, I work
as a farmer. Then I like, working for Green Giants, Del Monte, you
know, picking peas and things like that.
</p>
<p>
Q: So ’71, as a
Chinese---and you spoke English when you came to America?</p>
<p>
Wong: Yes, yes.
</p>
<p>
Q: But Spokane, Washington, is
not, is not a---</p>
<p>
Wong: It’s quite a culture
shock. Because that, you know, in movies or in magazine or newspaper,
you always think of United States as New York City. So when you got
off the plane, go to a place where, you know, you don’t see any
sky scrappers and it’s flatland, it’s farming, so you
know, it’s quite a culture shock. You know, you’re there,
oh, this is the United States. You know, “am I in the wrong
place?” I think, you know, Hong Kong is much more
sophisticated, much more advanced than the United States. But that’s
what I meant, you know. That you could learn only so much from
textbooks, movies, or whatever. You have to visit the place and
really experience it.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you have a hard time
assimilating?<br><br>Wong; No. Because I really like, even when I
was kid before I came here, I liked Western music, Western movies, I
had no problem assimilating, at all. But of course there are things I
don’t know, like slang that people use, I wouldn’t---I
cannot tell the difference. I wouldn’t know the meaning. But in
generic terms, I don’t think I had a tough time fitting in. I
fit in pretty well.</p>
<p>
Q: And you pursue a degree in
what, now?</p>
<p>
Wong: In broadcasting.
Radio and television.</p>
<p>
Q: For four years, after that,
and you got your first job as what?</p>
<p>
Wong: No, actually, no. Four
years I, I finished in three years. When I came I was already a
second year student because the educational system is different, the
British system and the American system is different. After high
school, in Hong Kong, I went to two additional year as quote and
unquote, like a, in Hong Kong that’s considered like
pre-college classes. So when the student from Hong Kong come here,
the American colleges already recognize that that’s equal to
one year’s worth of credits, or whatever.</p>
<p>
So when I came, I was second year
already, and I finish in three years, and then I want to go to
graduate school and I was accepted by Kansas, Syracuse or New York
City. My professor told me that if you are going to pursue a career
in television, there are two places. Either you go to Los Angeles, or
you go to New York, and I was already in West Coast for three years,
so that’s why I came to the East Coast. And then I did two
years in Brooklyn College. Right after I graduate, I got a job at
WNBC.</p>
<p>
Q: As what?</p>
<p>
Wong: As an on-air promotion
coordinator. Then, I moved pretty fast, actually. I spent less than
two years, no, I spent a year there, and then I moved to another area
called “sales traffic,” spent two years, I was made
manager of the department. But that really is not the area that I
want to pursue.</p>
<p>
Then, after two years there, I
landed a job at the network, you know, to be a on-air operation
manager, and that’s where I really get to see what television
is all about.</p>
<p>
[cross talk]</p>
<p>
Q: It seems you were moving up
the corporate side of television, not so much the
creative
side.</p>
<p>
Wong: Correct, yes.
</p>
<p>
Q: But what happened to your
dreams of becoming a director---</p>
<p>
Wong: [laughs]. No, and again,
you know, I guess it is fate. Then I got a call from a schoolmate,
not a classmate, he was two year senior than I was in Brooklyn
College. Asked me if I were interested in making a little money
shooting commercial. I said, sure, why not. And so I, as a production
assistant, we were doing commercial in Chinatown for the owner of
Sino Television. At that time, he already put programming on
Manhattan Cable, you know, that’s back in ’74, ’75,
a couple of hours a night. So, and that’s how, I---the
connection was made to my current employer.
</p>
<p>
After that, then he started a
television station, not a full-time, like, 12 hours a day. But it is
on the ITFS system. It’s on microwave. But it was quite an
elaborate set up. We have a studio in this building, on the first
floor, and I got to do production, okay. But if I had to back track a
little bit, while I was working at the corporate management side at
NBC, because we were in management, and during strike or whatever,
then we have to fill these jobs. If there were a neighbor’s
strike, the tape operator is not working on a camera, people are not
working, or if there’s a director’s strike, and then the
management have to fill in the job. So I got my training, doing
directing job, I got my training doing camera work, so, and I use
those training and do it in Chinese language here. It seems that it
worked out perfectly. I made my money during the day and then at
night I got to produce news program in Chinese. I got to do some
magazine type format shows, where we interview accomplish Chinese
residents here in the city.
</p>
<p>
So, I got a lot of job
satisfaction out of that. That’s the creative side. But now
it’s different. I’m in a very good position where I and
the people that work with me, can work together, and we can design
studios, design the equipment, pick out equipment that we want to
use, and we also work together and try to see what kind of programs
that we want
to produce and serve the public better.
</p>
<p>
So, it’s fun. It’s
very hard work, it’s very difficult, but it’s fun.</p>
<p>
Q: I want to take you back a
little bit again. Now, at what point did you decide, “I’m
going to stay in America, I’m not going to go back to Hong Kong
and work for TVB.”</p>
<p>
Wong: At which---[laughs]---Ah,
I, you bring up a very good question. I---even though when I was
working for Channel 4, I went back to Hong Kong from time to time. I
had many, many talks with TVB, talking to different level. Never came
to term.
</p>
<p>
I just feel that it was too much
to give up, and it’s too much a risk. Plus I was getting older,
I have children here, where their welfare is my concern, and I’d
like them to go to school here and all that.
</p>
<p>
Q: ---in this profession. Do you
think that you could climb as high in this country as, say, a
foreigner in Hong Kong could?
</p>
<p>
Wong: It depends on which area.
There are accomplished, very accomplished Chinese broadcasters in
this country. I mean, my boss, the owner of this company. This
company ranked I think number 25 as a group owner in this country.
For a Chinese, I think it’s well accomplished. There’s
another fellow, John See, the head guy for Encore, plus there are
some accomplished broadcasters in the writing field, for instance,
scriptwriter, you know, that may be difficult. Director, we have
accomplished Chinese director making to Hollywood now.</p>
<p>
It’s much, much, easier,
nowadays, than when I was just graduating from college. In those days
it may be difficult. Nowadays I think it’s much, much easier.
Not that it is a piece a cake, I don’t think so. But certainly
it is a lot easier. I think, well, if you talk about discriminations,
there is always going to be, it just depend on how you’re going
to take care of it.</p>
<p>
Q: At what point did you join
Sino on a full-time basis?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, actually, I joined
Sino a little more than six years ago.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, okay, so there was a lot
of time between NBC and this---</p>
<p>
Wong: Yeah, there were, there
were, when I left NBC, then I, landed a job at a Hispanic, Spanish
language educational station. It was a start up operation, and the,
the guy sold me the job because he brought up two points, he said,
“Well, you have managed in an English language environment, you
have managed a Chinese stations, now it’s a Spanish language,
it’s a good challenge for you.” And I think he was right.
I don’t speak Spanish, but I did it for him. I helped him do
the start up, and I worked there for a few years.
</p>
<p>
Then, after that, I was involved
in the radio business, you know, I team up with a partner and we
build a radio station in New Jersey. That took me a couple of years.
After we built it, we sold it, and that’s the time I start
working for Sino TV.</p>
<p>
Q: And you came in as what, at
the beginning, at Sino?<br><br>Wong: At Sino? The general manager
for the TV station. Because I work for them before as a part-time,
you know, when I was working for NBC. They know I can deliver, they
know my work style, they know how I work.</p>
<p>
Q: How is this station funded?</p>
<p>
Q: This is a privately owned---</p>
<p>
Wong: It is a privately owned.
We have no, we have no affiliation with any organization, any
companies. It’s privately owned, and it’s strictly
commercial broadcasting. There’s no political overtone, there’s
no propaganda, it’s strictly broadcasting. And the owner is
also
an American-educated person. He graduated from
Syracuse.</p>
<p>
Q: He is Chinese, yes?</p>
<p>
Wong: He is Chinese. You know, I
think we more or less have the same dream, doing things that we want
to do. Except that he is a business person.</p>
<p>
Q: And where is Sino seen?
</p>
<p>
Wong: In the city.</p>
<p>
Q: In the Tri-State Area?</p>
<p>
Wong: Not in the Tri-State, in
New York City, and also in part of New Jersey, well, yeah, part of
New Jersey, like north Bergen County, along the Hudson River, and
Staten Island, all the five boroughs of New York City, plus Mount
Vernon and Westchester County.
</p>
<p>
Q: So you’re not at all
seen on the West Coast?</p>
<p>
Wong: Not yet, not yet. But we’re
getting there. Very close, very close. I think we, if we can get our
act together, I think we can be up and running in a month or two.</p>
<p>
Q: At the moment, it’s a
24-hour running channel?</p>
<p>
Wong: Yes. Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: And what kind of programs and
languages do you broadcast in?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, we have three
channels. One analogue channel and two digital channels. One digital
channel is for movies, 24 hours movie channel. And that movie channel
has
movies from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China. But in
addition to that, I think we are the only movie channel airing
Hollywood movies in Chinese language. I think we’re the only
one in the country.</p>
<p>
Q: With subtitles, or voice
over?</p>
<p>
Wong: Voice over. Dubbed in
Chinese. And so, then the other channels, we have news, we have
drama, we have public affair programs, education programs. These
programs are from China, from Taiwan, and also from Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>
Q: How much is produced here, in
New York City?</p>
<p>
Wong: Here, in New York City, on
a daily basis, we produce one hour Mandarin news, half hour Cantonese
news. On a weekly basis, we have one financial program, taped at Wall
Street, then another public affair program, it’s a talk show,
interviewing accomplished Chinese in the community.</p>
<p>
Q: So all of the shows are in
either Cantonese or Mandarin, is that right?</p>
<p>
Wong: Right. And some of the
shows, they are in dual audio channel, SEP, meaning that the people
at home, then can press the SEP button, they can either pick the
Mandarin language or the Chinese dialect.
</p>
<p>
Q: You said earlier that Sino TV
doesn’t have any political agenda. From what I’ve seen in
Chinatown, it seems almost impossible for any organization, any
Chinese organization to not have a preference, meaning leaning toward
either China or Taiwan, something, there are, like for example, are
your broadcasters, your on-air people, are they mainly from China,
are they from Taiwan, from Hong Kong, everywhere?</p>
<p>
Wong: Yeah, they’re
everywhere. They’re everywhere. And I can, if you look at our
program schedule, we have a number of hours of programming from CCTV,
which is
from China, we have a number of hours of programs
from Taiwan. As a matter of fact, we have less programming from Hong
Kong, and that’s not by design, that’s because of the
financial burden. It’s more expensive to import programming
from Hong Kong. We have a satellite dish here looking at CCTV on a
24-hour basis, any program that we want to use, we just pass it out.
The same with the Taiwan.
</p>
<p>
We want to have a philosophy that
we are the liaison between the public and the world. The world means
the mainstream society here. The world means Hong Kong and China, and
Hong Kong, so that they can keep in touch with what’s happening
in their homeland.
</p>
<p>
You know, with a 24/7 type of
operation, I think we have plenty of opportunity to present different
views, you know, for people, I mean, they make their preference, and
we just want to present it.</p>
<p>
Q: But there’s no
regulation, or pressure of any kind [cross talk]---</p>
<p>
Wong: No, no, no. As a matter of
fact, we’re on cable. If it’s just a regular UHF or VHF,
we need a license or something like that, but this is on a cable
channel. The cable operators are not giving us any type of sponsor,
censorship. But it’s just that our principal, we want to be
able to not only to entertain, but to educate and inform the public.
And I think it’s very, very important. You know, you mentioned
in the community, there are people leaning left, right, and
sometimes, when you have an agenda, you may not present a very
balanced point of view, and we want to be in a position, or at least
we try to be in a position that we can offer different viewpoints, so
that people can make their educated decision.</p>
<p>
Q: Sino Television I know is not
the only Chinese broadcaster in New York City. There is several dozen
others. What differentiates you from the other broadcasters, and are
you the leader? I mean, are you the biggest?
</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, I think that’s
up for other people to decide, but I think the difference is we
are very independent, and local. There are other Chinese
services, you are right, but they have affiliation with Hong Kong.
Either their mother company is in Hong Kong, or in China. Then there
are other services that are not full time. But we operate our
channel, as I said, just like a commercial broadcasting station. It
is strictly from the view point of what kind of programming we can
provide to the public, in order to generate commercial advertising,
in order to generate subscribers, because that’s where we get
our funding, so we run things quite different from other Chinese
television services.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think part of your
role is to be kind of a bridge between the Chinese community to the
mainstream American community in any way?</p>
<p>
Wong: Personally, I hope so, and
I think from the business point of view, we hope so. I think that is
the key to the success. We serve a public, or a group of people that
may have language problem, they may not be watching CNN, they may not
be watching FOX News, and I think we would like to be in a position
to bridge that gap, to make them aware of what’s happening in
this country, what’s happening in New York City.</p>
<p>
And we also serve a group of
people who watch, or who understand the language who may be watching
CNN or may be watching MSNBC, but they want to find out what is
happening in China, or Taiwan. They may read the New York Times about
the Taiwan election but, to hear a different point of view from a
news coming from Taiwan, I am sure it will present them with a
different perspective.</p>
<p>And I think in that sense, I
really think that we serve as a liaison, or a bridge, not only to the
public who have a language problem. We want to serve the entire
Chinese public that, you know, to the mainstream society and also to
their homeland.
</p>
<p>
Q: So on the topic of language
barrier, we know that a lot of people in Chinatown, because they
don’t speak English, have a lot of problem assimilating to
mainstream America. But even not mentioning those, we also know that
in the last ten years, the Fujianese community has been the fastest
growing. But yet, your station only, and all your
programs,
both television and radio, only broadcast in Cantonese and Mandarin.
I don’t have the exact numbers, but what happened? Well, who is
serving the Fujianese community? Where are they going to get their
information, if they don’t speak English, they don’t
speak Mandarin, they don’t speak Chinese, and I think a lot of
them can’t even read, because they are from the rural areas. So
where are they going to get information?<br><br>
</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, I don’t know
your assertion is right. You bring out a very good point. We tried
to, at one time, you know, having the same thought that you have,
tried to find Fukinese radio personality to do, let’s say, a
three hours program at night. And the response that I receive, that
because the Fukianese, they speak Mandarin. They don’t
necessarily have to be listening to Fukianese language. So I think,
when you look at this, I think, down the road, I really don’t
see that much a deal. I think it’s more and more geared toward
Mandarin, rather than Toisanese, or Cantonese. Right now, yes,
there’s still a sizable Cantonese-speaking group here, but I
think eventually, I think it’s going to be mixed.
</p>
<p>
Our Cantonese stations, there are
a lot of Mandarin-speaking listeners. They call up, they ask, can we
speak Mandarin, and we say, yes, by all means. And they’ll give
their viewpoints in Mandarin, they will ask questions in Mandarin.
</p>
<p>
Q: As you know, that’s not
reality, because Chinatown is very much divided in that way. There
really isn’t one language that really unites everybody.
</p>
<p>
Wong: But isn’t that the
problem, though?</p>
<p>
Q: That is the problem, and I
have heard from different people in the Fujianese community that say
that they are very isolated, because so much of Chinatown is not
servicing them, you know, as a result they as a community need to
build so many things for themselves, because there is not much for
them in Chinatown, because of the language barrier.</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, I don’t
know. I think we should look at it as the services for all Chinese
rather than one special group.
</p>
<p>Q: Do you think Chinatown as
a community is a united community, because we’re all Chinese?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, as a whole, I would
say, yes. As a whole, I would say that they are making progress. Look
at Chinatown, after 911 the business may suffer a little bit, but as
a whole, I think it is still very prosperous, certainly better than
when I first came to New York, so you mentioned something that, there
are groups that build up certain things to ascertain the need.
</p>
<p>
Whether I agree with it or not, I
think it is a positive thing. At least people are doing something
.You know Chinese, they are very, traditionally they are very
passive. And now, if they recognize a problem, they are doing
something about it, I think it is pointing at the right direction.</p>
<p>
Q; So let’s talk about,
you mentioned 911. You are located at 449 Broadway, which is just
about a block from Chinatown and not so far from Ground Zero. How has
that event impacted this business, or your role as a community
broadcaster?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, I have to say that I
really, nobody would like to see another incident like 911. But that
happening, ironically kind of put us on the map. We launched the
radio station, the Chinese language station, I think a few months
prior to 911, and when it happened, as you mentioned, because of the
proximity, you know, we see what happened, and fortunately, our
transmitter were not affected. We were on the air. We give out
information, we tell people what happened, and we play a very, very,
important role during that period of time, because, you know, at one
time I think there wasn’t any, even newspaper. People don’t
know what to do, so we have people practically calling up, you know,
my son is in school, you think that he can come, what train will he
be taking, and what can be done, what can I do?</p>
<p>
So, you asked earlier, whether I
see that Chinatown is united. I think if it is not united, I think it
certainly has made substantial improvements towards that direction.
Not only do we play the direct role or the principal role in giving
out information, but the people themselves, the public themselves,
you know, when they hear questions, if we don’t know the
answer, they will call up and give out the information. And I think
in the old days you don’t see this type of thing happen. It
wouldn’t.
</p>
<p>
Q: You mean Chinese people
participating in that way?</p>
<p>
Wong: Yeah, right, I mean,
actively participating in the process. You know, for example, we
announced on the air that if you have gloves, if you have water, the
fire company they need this material, or police precinct, they need
these items and all that. Then, they would go there and donate this
material. And while we are still giving out these public service
announcements, then an audience, a listener would call up and say,
“Oh, I’ve just been to Fire Company XYZ, they don’t
need gloves anymore, they got plenty of them. You should donate it to
another company.” So they themselves really take part into the
whole process, and they would not sit back and let other people do
it. And I think for Chinese, I think that was really a giant step
forward, ‘cause in the old days, you know, everybody just doing
things for themselves, they don’t care what other peoples are
doing.
</p>
<p>
But in this instance, they really
did a terrific job. Our radio personalities were on the air day and
night, and we have Chinese restaurants they prepare their food and
they brought it up for us. They also would ask us to help them to
deliver food to the police, to the police precinct or the police
headquarter, ‘cause they really wanted to help. And then they
felt that they are part of the society. And that’s something
that in my 30-some years here, I have never seen that until that
time. I was really, really, very impressed. And yes, a lot of people
give us credit for doing a fundraising, and raise so much money, but
I think the credit should really be going back to the people in the
community.</p>
<p>
I mean, they made a point that
they wanted to demonstrate that they cared. ‘Cause a lot of
people say, “Ah, the Chinese, they come here, they
make the money, they go home and retire,” and all that. But
they made it a point to show that they care, they are part of the
society and they want to be very united, and they want to tell the
mainstream that they are united. And I think that that is a very
strong message.</p>
<p>
Q: There’s something else
that you’re talking about, donations and money. I think you’re
being modest. Your station actually collected over a million dollars,
which is something that---</p>
<p>
Wong: Yeah, 1.45 million---</p>
<p>
Q: Which is completely
unprecedented in this community---</p>
<p>
Wong: Absolutely---</p>
<p>
Q: How did that happen? Who
initiated this, how did that happen?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, my boss always gave
me credit, that I initiated it. No, it’s not. I think the ones
that, who initiated it was really the people in the community, and
they call us up, you know, a lot of people call up the station and
say, you know, we want to do something, I want to write a check, I
want to donate money, where do I send this check, and we always
educated them. You know, “You just write, Red Cross.” But
for some people, even writing “Red Cross” would be a
problem. They don’t know how to spell “Red.” You
ask them to write a whole address, it would be very, very difficult.
And then they said, “Can we just bring the check to the
station, and you write it for us.”</p>
<p>
Q: Bring you cash, and then
they---</p>
<p>
Wong: No. They said, “Well,
I don’t know how to write, can I bring the check to your
station, you write it for us?” Yes, for one or two, yes, it’s
okay, but, you know, and then we get a lot of requests. Then somebody
would say, “Can we just give you the money?
You write
it, you send it. We trust you. You do it.”<br><br>
</p>
<p>
So, we did fundraising before.
Our company did some fundraising before in the community, and it had
been successful as well, but we hate to do that, because no matter
how you do it, people always suspect that you take portion of the
money, you know---</p>
<p>
Q: There’s corruption
involved somewhere---</p>
<p>
Wong: Yeah, into your own pocket
or whatever. That’s why we really didn’t want to do it.
But the request was really, really, overwhelming. And then, I
convinced my boss that, you know, we really have to do something,
because if there were five phone calls, four would be asking us to do
this type of thing. So then we say, “Okay, we’ll do it,
you can send cash, or you can walk to the station, we’ll give
you a receipt right away, we are not going to take your money.”
And when we first started we thought that hey, the most maybe
fifty-thousand, a hundred thousand. I think the first couple of days
we already reached over a hundred, like two hundred thousand,
something like that. And the momentum just kept on going. It just
kept on going. And then, when it gets to a million, then people will
call up and give us credit and say, “Oh, your station is doing
great, we really support your station, without your station we don’t
know what we would have done, you know, how we could have functioned,
let’s do it for, let’s do it and reach the number to
1430. At that time our call letter, you know, our frequency was 1430.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
And, so, they did it. They just
keep on writing check and keep on coming, and we really-- -at 1430 we
stop, we say that, no more, we’re finished, we’ll take
this money and we’ll donate it to the World Trade Center Fund
and also to the Red Cross. But there was some money that was already
in the mail. That’s why it was 1.45 million dollars. [laughs].
</p>
<p>
But that is, you were talking
about unity. I think that really demonstrates that if the Chinese
want to show their unity they could do it. They really could do it. A
lot of people give us credit for it, we receive a lot of awards for
it, but I really, each time if I have to give a thank you speech, I
really think that the credit really should be the people in the
community, cause they never did anything like before. Never.</p>
<p>
Q: But, this outpour of
generosity, which is surprising, as you said for Chinese people,
because a lot of times they just look after themselves---</p>
<p>
Wong: Right, exactly.</p>
<p>
Q: But do you think, in part,
that’s because the location of Chinatown was so near Ground
Zero that in same way Chinatown was kind of attacked, the effects of
it. If this had happened, say in Harlem, do you think the Chinese
community would have reacted the way they did?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, it was a tragedy. And
I think the magnitude of the incident was so great that yes they
would have done it. To this extreme, I think you have a point,
because of the proximity, they would feel more, the impact, they
would feel a lot more, because they’re here, they see it, they
smell it. I mean, you, I don’t know where you were, for a month
we were here. It was horrible smell, horrible.
</p>
<p>
Q: Let’s stop there and we
have to change tapes.</p>
<p>
Wong: Okay.</p>
<p>
Q: So you were talking about
this, sort of surprising unity the Chinese people show in the
aftermath of September 11<sup>th</sup>. So as a broadcaster, I mean,
obviously you saw that people truly trusted you and looked towards
you as a reliable source of information, because every station, every
network, everybody was showing the same event, and this many people
tune into you. What do you think, you know, why are you in that
position, where people came to you, when they didn’t go to
another one of the Chinese stations and donated this much money?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, I could think of a
couple of reasons. I think number one is that we have
been
in the community for more than twenty-six years, so I think we have
the grassroots Chinese public support. I think that’s number
one. I think number two is really the power of the medium that you
can reach out to so many people, and whatever you say is immediate.
And during that time, where they cannot understand the mainstream
reports, there were no newspaper, ah, transportation, if they live in
Queens they cannot come out, if they live in Brooklyn they cannot
come out. Even if they live in Chinatown, they may have difficulty
getting through different streets, and we more or less became their
friend. And when you can provide information, when you become their
companion day and night, then that certainly build up that trust. And
when they come here, they see that it’s a legitimate operation,
you know, and it’s the word of mouth. And that’s how we
build the trust.</p>
<p>
And I think building the trust is
through the way we present ourselves. With our programming, with our
coverage, we did, I think we did a very, very good job. It was day
and night. Even our DJ, they knew it, ‘cause they heard the
same voice. It was almost 24 hours without interruption. And that was
something that they never had experience with. Because in the past,
you may listen to a program, and you turn it off, or another DJ come
on, but this, on the 24-hour basis, it’s the same group of DJs
that going to be there. And some of our DJs are touched, you know,
even cry on the air, and we also interview people, family of the
victims, they were here, we interviewed them. It make such a strong
impact to the listeners.
</p>
<p>
So, that’s why we earned
their trust.</p>
<p>
Q: You think Chinatown was
under-covered in the mainstream media, given how close it is to
Ground Zero, and as a community where there’s actually a lot of
residents---</p>
<p>
Wong: Oh, yeah, absolutely, in
my opinion, yes. No---we raised 1.45 million, right? Yes, we got a
lot of coverage, but I can even quote you an example. I don’t
have it now, but I think on a daily basis, during that time, during
that period of time, if somebody gave us sixty thousand dollars
charity they may have their photos and a big space on the
newspaper. But we got our space, but not as prominent as, you know,
other groups.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think that’s
because the Asian community doesn’t have a leader? Chinatown
doesn’t really have a distinct leader to represent the
community in incidences like this, to stand out, and----</p>
<p>
Wong: [laughs] Well, I think
historically, as a group, we have never been very vocal. As a group,
we have not been very---I’m not talking about leader or no
leader, but as a group, we have not been very vocal. We did not, we
were not very active in participating in the political process.
</p>
<p>
Q: So you said that 9/11 has put
your organization on the map in some way, and I know that you
presented Mayor Giuliani with the check ---</p>
<p>
Wong: Right.</p>
<p>
Q: --- at City Hall, so with all
that exposure, what has that meant? How has that resulted in
anything, a change in programming, or the way you see your
responsibility in the community? Has it resulted in any change, this
event?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, I think, as I said,
it put us on the map. I think it makes us, selling our commercial
time easier, in the community. But it just reinforce the fact that we
have to ascertain the community needs in our programming, and I think
that’s very important. I always advocate for providing a forum
for the public to voice their each opinion, to discuss issues, on our
radio, and I think we did a very good job on that.
</p>
<p>
Q: So if the Chinese community
could come together during this 911 tragedy, you know, two years,
more than two years have passed now, do you think that brief unity
has resulted in positive changes in Chinatown? Do you think people,
different groups talk to each other more, or there is more work
towards rebuilding Chinatown together? Or everybody went back, to
their own separate places after this event?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, I never, I never pay
attention to what different groups are doing, so I really cannot
answer that question, but I think it does show that the incident, or
that time demonstrate that Chinese as a group, if they want to do
something, they can unite and do something and achieve whatever goal
they set out to do. Now, whether leadership, whether there’s a
group that want to lead or has demonstrated that they want to lead, I
don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t pay attention to
local politics that much, but I am just very proud of the fact---and
it changed my perspective. It really has changed my perspective. I’ve
been here for so long now, and that really has demonstrated
that---you know, I never thought that Chinese would pay that much
attention to what’s around them. Chinese always, you know, they
make sure that their children get good education, they make sure that
they have enough money in the bank to put food on table and pay rent
and all that.</p>
<p>
But I think now, they have become
more aware of events that happen around them. And I think that’s
very positive.</p>
<p>
Q: So does your station do, have
you done more public announcement, or increased programs to educate
the Chinese community?</p>
<p>
Wong: Yes, we are. As a matter
of fact, earlier I mentioned about political process. I think voter
registration. A lot of people, they don’t understand the power
of having the right to vote. So we want to encourage people to
register. I think several weeks ago we had an event here---we have a
magazine we publish, a weekly magazine. It’s a very popular
magazine. And each Saturday there are people coming to pick up the
magazine. And one Saturday we started the voter registration. And on
one, on a three hours period, we registered close to two hundred
people.
</p>
<p>
Now, two hundred people may sound
a very small number, but when you figure in that most of the people,
I shouldn’t say most---some of the people, they may not be
resident. Some of the people may not even, you know, have legal
status. Okay, so when you can
sign up two hundred people
that have the qualifications to vote, that’s a huge number in a
three hours period. And we intend to do more, between now and the
election. And I think that really would bring the awareness to
people, that if they want to do something, if they want to get the
kind of benefits that they want, or that will affect their children
or whatever, voting is a very powerful tool. And we hope that we can
achieve that.</p>
<p>Q: So as a whole station,
where are you leading your team for the future? What more can Sino
Television do?</p>
<p>
Wong: If---[laughs]---I tell
you, if I can achieve, by providing entertainment, and educating the
public, and become a bridge between the Chinese community and the
mainstream community, I think I have achieved it, and I have done a
very good job. And that is a constant process. I mean, you cannot
stop. Entertainment, yes, you can upgrade a program, you can import
whatever program. But to really ascertain the community needs, you
have to really pick out special issues, social issues, focus on
current events, government program, they may make an impact to the
Chinese-American way of life.</p>
<p>I think it’s very
important for us to really, on one hand, bring awareness to the
Chinese public, and on the other, to provide a forum for them to air
their opinion. It’s almost an outlet to them.
</p>
<p>
Q: For their life in America.</p>
<p>
Wong: Right. For example, we had
our grand opening of our television facility here two weeks ago, and
the Manhattan borough president came and do the ribbon cutting. And
subsequent to that I wrote her a letter and thank her for her
participation. At the same time I asked to do a weekly program with
her, or even a monthly program, as the borough president. That is
what I meant, a liaison, between the community here---</p>
<p>
Q: You’re trying to get
Chinese more involved.
</p>
<p>
Wong: More involved, and
they’re, I think little things, you know, sometimes they may
feel, like you say, they may, certain group may feel isolated. I
think as a group Chinese sometimes they may feel that they are
isolated. They may not know how come, you know, I park this car here,
how come I got a ticket. They may have that. How come I have to pay
for the, the getting rid of the tree in front of my house.
</p>
<p>
But if you put a public official,
and answer the question, these type of question, they, it bring it
closer to the mainstream society. They feel that, ah, they pay
attention to us. And that’s the kind of role that we want to
provide.</p>
<p>
Q: And is there any goal to take
your station nationally, so that it can be seen all over America?</p>
<p>
Wong: We hope so, but that is a
business decision. I think the success of a station, like I said
earlier, is really based on local presence, and doing nationally, I
think from the entertainment point of view, it may be good, but in
terms of different communities, you still have to have local presence
there. And that will be a challenge when we go national.</p>
<p>
Q: And do you plan to stick
around for this challenge? You’re going to stay with this
company?<br><br>Wong: [laughs]. I don’t know. I think it’s
fun. But I think there are a lot of people who work here, they know
my philosophy. And we are working towards that goal, whether I’m
here or not, whether I manage it or not, it doesn’t really
matter.
</p>
<p>
Q: That’s a good sign. A
sign of a good manager. If you leave, everything still works. Right?</p>
<p>
Wong: Well, thank you.
</p>
<p>
It’s very
important. Otherwise, I think the power of the media will get lost. I
think doing business, making good business is one thing I think is
important, but ascertaining the community needs is also very
important, so---you are in media, so you don’t need me to tell
you that.</p>
<p>
Q: So looking back, you’re
happy with the choices you made? You’re okay that you didn’t
become Ang Lee?
</p>
<p>
Wong: [laughs] Um---</p>
<p>
Q: No regrets?</p>
<p>
Wong: No, I don’t have any
regret. I’ve been very lucky. I mean, who would have thought
that a boy growing up in a poor environment can be where I am? Not
that I’m very accomplished, but doing something meaningful. And
I think that’s very important. Am I happy? Yeah. Overall I’m
happy. We should always aim high.</p>
<p>
Q: Well, you’re still
young. There’s still time.</p>
<p>
Wong: [laughs] The camera lies,
okay? It’s right here.</p>
<p>
Q: Well, I think you’re
probably surprised that you have shared this much with us that you
didn’t anticipate to, so---</p>
<p>
[laughter]</p>
<p>
Wong: Yeah, it’s my whole
life history.
</p>
<p>
Q: But since the camera is still
rolling, is there anything else that you want to say, or tell the
public, that I haven’t asked you?<br><br>
Wong: Um,
I, no, I think you asked me just about everything.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, well, in that case,
then, thank you Tony, very much for your time---</p>
<p>
Wong: My pleasure, my pleasure.</p>
<p>
Q: And my name is Lan Trinh.</p>
<p>
<strong>[END OF INTERVIEW]</strong></p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕今天是2004年4月1日。我現在在Tony Wong百老彙中國電視臺辦公室。Tony,我們先談一下現在。請跟我們講一下中國電視臺以及你在這裏做什麽。</p>
<p>王:中國電視臺開播已有六年了。實際上,我們開始是在皇后區的法拉盛。我們開始只有一個頻道,78台。這是每周七天每天24小時用中文播放的電視臺。兩年之後,Time Warner有了數碼式工作平臺,我們又增加了兩個數碼頻道。現在,我們搬到曼哈頓辦公,因爲我們在那兒有一個廣播電臺,也是用中文廣播的。</p>
<p>我們考慮到把這兩個電臺放在一起會使我們更加充分地利用我們的資源,同時也會使我們能夠更好地爲華人社區服務。</p>
<p>問:好的,我們將用更多的時間談你的工作和中國電視臺在華人社區所起的作用。但首先,我們想瞭解一下你本人的情況。你是否一直對媒體很感興趣?你的背景如何?</p>
<p>王:是的,我一直對媒體很感興趣。首先,我在香港出生長大。我來這裏學習廣播。我在西海岸的Eastern Washington State University獲得學士學位,然後又來這裏讀研究生。在畢業之後,我非常非常幸運在WNBC,4台,找到一份工作。我在NBC做了很多年。除了廣播以外,我從來沒有從事過任何其他職業。不是在電視臺做就是在廣播電臺做,或做媒體廣告。</p>
<p>問:你是哪一年來美國的?</p>
<p> 王:我想是1971年9月1日來這裏的。</p>
<p>問:哇。那是很久之前了。[笑] 你在美國有沒有親戚?</p>
<p>王:沒有。實際上,我去了一個非常小的城鎮,Spokane,Washington。我一個人也不認識。但我非常非常幸運。學校裏有一個我不認識的教授,他們一家人對我非常好,讓我和他們住在一起。所以我剛一來美國就和他們住在一起。他就是做這一行的。他是教新聞學的教授,同時在當地的一家電視臺做主持。所以,可以說,從個人方面和專業方面來講,我在美國一直是在跟媒體打交道。</p>
<p>問:你的家人是一直在香港,還是從中國或其他地方到香港去的?</p>
<p>王:我的家人一直都在香港。甚至我的父母,他們,據我所知,他們說他們是在香港出生的。</p>
<p>問:你沒有英國公民身份嗎?</p>
<p>王:那個時候,我有一本英國護照。但那是否算是英國公民身份,我不清楚。在這裏結婚後不久,我和太太去倫敦旅遊,我當時還有英國護照,但我仍然要申請簽證去倫敦。所以,我想那不應該算是英國公民身份。</p>
<p>問:你當時沒有考慮去英國而不是美國讀書嗎?</p>
<p>王:並不是說我不想,我想那個時候人們都認爲去英國讀書太貴了。我是在一個非常貧窮的家庭長大的。<br>
我能來這裏已經是一個奇迹了。我找到了一家當時只收外州學生三千美元的大學,全包,食宿和學費。所以,這是當時條件的限制,而並非我的選擇。如果你問我想去哪里,我想那個時候我會說倫敦,因爲我覺得英國的學位要比美國的學位值錢。</p>
<p>問:你父母在香港是做什麽的?</p>
<p>王:我母親---,我父親在我八歲的時候去世了。我母親有四個孩子。我母親開一家蔬菜店,一個小店鋪。我基本上是在街上長大的。</p>
<p>問:是勞動階層。</p>
<p>王:沒錯,的確是。</p>
<p>問:在你決定來美國的時候,你是否打算從事媒體這一行?</p>
<p>王:是的,絕對是的。首先,我總是[咳嗽]---,甚至在我小的時候,我總是夢想出國。我想做媒體這一行是因爲那個時候我想成爲一個攝影家,覺得也許那樣我能到世界各個地方旅行,或者拍相片,或者拍電影,但我從來沒有機會實現。但我還是做了與拍攝類似的事情。</p>
<p>問:但是70年代的香港,就電視臺來講,僅僅有幾家---</p>
<p>王:只有一家,TVB。</p>
<p>問:---TVB。是不是像---</p>
<p> 王:那個時候我想還沒有TVB---</p>
<p>問:還沒有ATV嗎?</p>
<p>王:沒有,還沒有ATV。我想只有TVB。像其他小孩子一樣,我想在這裏完成學業後回去做個“出名的”導演或什麽的,但生活總是不盡人意。</p>
<p>問:你的母親有沒有鼓勵你從事這一行?</p>
<p>王:沒有。我想我母親實在是太忙了,並不是說她不照料我們。我認爲她十分盡力地照料我們。爲了支撐這個家庭,她非常努力地工作,所以很多事情必須由我們自己來決定。我自己選的學校,我自己安排了所有的事情。但她認爲我沒有必要離開香港。她認爲只要我努力,機會總會有的。即使在香港,如果我想要做一些事情,只要努力,我也能做到。</p>
<p>但那時,我有其他的想法。我想學東西是一回事情,但到世界的其他地方旅行和體驗是另外一回事情。我想我做了一個非常好的選擇。</p>
<p>問:你是怎樣資助你的生活的?在今天三千美金不算什麽,但在1971年---</p>
<p>王:那仍然是很大一筆錢。我想在我來的第一年---,實際上,在我來之前,我叔叔,我母親的兄弟在開始的時候也有資助我。來這裏之後,我立即在學校找了一份刷盤子的工作,然後差不多在六個月之後,除了刷盤子以外,我在圖書館找了另外一份工。<br>
在學校的食堂刷完盤子之後,我晚上又去附近的一家餐館刷盤子,大概每個星期做兩、三個晚上。</p>
<p>後來,在夏天,我又去做農活。我去Green Giant、Del Monte摘豌豆等。</p>
<p>問:71年,作爲一個華人---你來美國的時候是否講英文?</p>
<p>王:是的。</p>
<p>問:但Spokane,Washington不是一個---</p>
<p>王:這是一個很大的文化衝擊。因爲在電影、雜誌或報紙上,你總是把美國想象成爲紐約。因此,當你下了飛機,到了一個看不到高樓大廈平坦的地方,到處都是莊稼,這是很大的文化衝擊。你到了這裏,這就是美國。我在想,“我是不是來錯了地方?”香港都要比美國現代、先進得多。這就是我當時的想法。你只能從教科書、電影上瞭解這麽多。你必須要到那個地方去親身體驗。</p>
<p>問:你當時覺得很難適應嗎?</p>
<p>王:沒有。因爲我非常喜歡---,甚至在我來這裏之前,小的時候,我就喜歡西方音樂,西方電影,我根本就沒有覺得不適應。但當然也有我不知道的事情,比如人們講的俚語,我不會---,我聽不出來,我不懂。但是,總的來說,我想我還是比較適應這裏的。我適應得還不錯。</p>
<p>問:你學的是什麽專業?</p>
<p> 王:廣播學,電臺和電視。</p>
<p>問:學了四年之後,你的第一份工是做什麽的?</p>
<p>王:沒有,不是四年。實際上,我用三年就修完了。在我來的時候,我已經是二年級的學生了,因爲教育系統是不一樣的,英國和美國的教育系統是不同的。在香港上完高中之後,我又在香港上了兩年的所謂的預科班。因此香港的學生來到這裏時,美國學校都承認相當於一年的學分。</p>
<p>因此當我來的時候,我已經是第二年了。我用了三年完成了學業,然後我想上研究生院。我被堪薩斯,Syracuse和紐約市錄取了。我的教授跟我說,你如果要搞電視這行,只有兩個地方,或者你去洛杉磯,或者你去紐約。我已經在西海岸待了三年了,於是我就來到東海岸。我在布魯克林學院上了兩年。在我畢業的時候,我在WNBC找到一份工作。</p>
<p>問:做什麽?</p>
<p>王:廣播促進協調員。後來,實際上,我晉升得比較快。我做了不到兩年,沒有,我在那兒待了一年,然後我調到另一個部門,叫“銷售交通”,在那兒待了兩年,他們讓我做那個部門的經理。但那實在不是我感興趣的領域。</p>
<p>在那兒做了兩年之後,我在電臺找到一份工作,做廣播運作經理,我在那裏得以見識到電視臺是怎樣一回事。</p>
<p>[同時講話]</p>
<p> 問:聽起來你一直在電視臺的行政方面任職,而不是做具有創造性的一面。</p>
<p>王:是的。</p>
<p>問:你不是一直夢想做導演嗎?</p>
<p>王:[笑]。沒有,還是那句話,我想這是命運。我有一次接到一個校友的電話,不是同班同學,在布魯克林學院他比我早兩年。他問我是否想拍廣告賺一些外快。我說,沒有問題。就這樣,作爲製片助手,我們在唐人街爲中國電視臺的老闆拍了一個廣告。在當時,他已經在曼哈頓的電臺有節目,那還是在74、75年,每天晚上只有幾個小時。我就是這樣---,和我現在的老闆認識的。</p>
<p>在那之後,他辦了一個電視臺,不是全天的,每天只有12個小時,但是在ITFS系統上。是用微波傳送,但設備比較精致。我們在這個樓裏有一個工作室,在一樓,我負責制作。但如果回想起來,我在NBC負責公司管理的時候,因爲我們負責管理,在罷工和發生其他事件的時候,我們就不得不填補這些工作。如果其他公司的工人罷工,攝像機的磁帶操作員不工作,大家都不工作,或者如果導演也罷工,負責管理的就不得不去頂替。我受過訓練,做過導演的工作,我也做過攝影的工作,現在,我利用我的培訓在這裏做中文節目。看上去還比較不錯。我白天賺錢,晚上又製作中文新聞節目。我還做一些雜誌類型的節目,主要是採訪市里一些華裔成功人士。</p>
<p>因此,我從這些工作中獲得很大的成就感。那是具有創造性的一面。但現在又不同了。我和爲我工作的人能夠很好地合作,我們能設計工作室,設計設備,選擇我們想要使用的設備。<br>
而且我們能夠在一起工作,探索我們想要製作的節目來更好地爲公衆服務。</p>
<p>總的來講,工作是很辛苦,但是很有趣。</p>
<p>問:我想再談一談過去。你是在什麽時候決定,“我要待在美國,我不想回香港在TVB工作”。</p>
<p>王:在什麽---[笑]---啊,我,你問了一個非常好的問題。我---,即使我在4台工作的時候,我也時常回香港。我和TVB有很多很多接觸,和不同級別的人都有談過。但從未達成協定。</p>
<p>我只是覺得放棄了的話太可惜了,而且是很大的風險。加上我的年紀已大,我在這裏有孩子,我必須要讓他們的生活有保障,我想讓他們在這裏上學和發展。</p>
<p>問:---在這個職業中的。你認爲你在這裏是否能象一個在香港的外國人成功?</p>
<p>王:這取決於是在哪個領域。這裏有非常成功的華裔廣播員。我是說,我的老闆,他擁有這個公司。我想作爲集團總裁這個公司在美國排行第25。我覺得對於中國人來講這已經是非常成功了。還有另外一個人,John See,Encore的首要人物,加上那些在寫作領域出名的廣播員,例如撰稿人,那都是相當不容易的。導演,我們有很出名的華裔導演製作好萊塢影片。</p>
<p>現在比我剛剛從學校畢業時要容易得多。在那個時候是很困難的。我覺得現在容易得多。我倒不是說非常容易。但至少容易得多。<br>
如果你講歧視,這永遠會有的,只是看你怎樣去看待。</p>
<p>問:你是什麽時候在中視任職的?</p>
<p>王:實際上,我是在六年前加入中視的。</p>
<p>問:那你在NBC和---</p>
<p>王:是的。在我離開NBC的時候,我在一家西班牙語教育電臺找到一份工作。那是一家新開播的電臺,他們把我招過去是有兩個原因,他說,“你已經管理過一家英文電臺,你也管理過中文電臺,現在是西班牙語,對你是一個很好的挑戰”。我想他是正確的。我不講西班牙文,但我還是去做了。我幫他把公司建立了起來,後來又在那裏做了幾年。</p>
<p>在那之後,我又搞了廣播電臺。我和另外一個合夥人在新澤西辦了一家廣播電臺。我又在那裏做了幾年。電臺建立之後,我們又把它賣了,在那個時候我開始在中視工作。</p>
<p>問:你剛開始在中視任什麽職務?</p>
<p>王:在中視?電視臺的總經理。因爲我之前在NBC工作的時候在那裏做兼職。他們知道我能做事情,他們知道我的工作風格,他們知道我的工作能力。</p>
<p>問:這家電臺的經費是從哪里來的?</p>
<p>問:這是一家私有的---</p>
<p> 王:它是私有的。我們和其他組織和公司沒有隸屬聯繫。是私有的,是完全商業的廣播。沒有政治傾向,沒有宣傳,只是廣播。老闆也是在美國上過學的。他是從Syracuse畢業的。</p>
<p>問:他也是華人?</p>
<p>王:是的。我想我們或多或少都有同樣的夢想,做我們想要做的事情,只不過他是一個生意人。</p>
<p>問:中視在哪里廣播?</p>
<p>王:在市里。</p>
<p>問:在Tri-State地區?</p>
<p>王:沒有在Tri-State,在紐約市,和新澤西的一部分。比如在Bergen縣北部,Hudson River沿岸,和史丹頓島,紐約市的五個區,加上Mount Vernon和Westchester縣。</p>
<p>問:在西海岸看不到你的節目?</p>
<p>王:暫時沒有。但我們正在努力,差不多快搞好了。如果能好好規劃的話,我想我們能在一兩個月內開播。</p>
<p>問:現在是24小時播放的頻道?</p>
<p>王:是的。</p>
<p>問:是什麽樣的節目?你們用什麽語言廣播?</p>
<p> 王:我們有三個頻道。一個是類比頻道,兩個是數碼頻道。一個數碼頻道播放電影,24小時電影頻道。那個電影頻道播放香港,臺灣,和中國的電影。除此之外,我想我們是唯一用中文播放好萊塢電影的電影頻道。我想我們是國內唯一一家。</p>
<p>問:是字幕還是配音?</p>
<p>王:配音。用中文配音。其他幾個頻道,我們有新聞,我們有戲劇,我們有公衆事務的節目,教育節目。這些節目來自中國,臺灣,和香港。</p>
<p>問:有多少是在這裏,紐約市,製作的?</p>
<p>王:在紐約市的每天都有。我們製作一小時的國語新聞,半小時廣州話新聞。每星期有金融節目,在華爾街拍攝。還有另外一個公衆事務的節目,是談話節目,採訪社區裏成功的華人。</p>
<p>問:這些是廣州話或者國語的節目嗎?</p>
<p>王:是的。有些節目是雙語頻道,SEP,就是說在家觀看的觀衆可以按SEP鍵,選擇國語或其他方言。</p>
<p>問:你早些時候談到中視沒有任何政治傾向。從我在唐人街的觀察,似乎任何組織,任何華人組織沒有傾向是幾乎不可能的,或者傾向中國或者傾向臺灣。比如,你們的播音員主要是從中國來的,還是從臺灣,從香港,或其他地方?</p>
<p> 王:哪里來的都有。如果你看我們的節目預告,我們有幾個小時CCTV的節目,這是中國的。我們有幾個小時臺灣的節目。實際上,我們較少播香港的節目。並不是我們有意的,而是因爲費用問題。從香港進口節目要貴一些。我們這裏衛星天線24小時監視CCTV,如果我們想要使用任何節目,我們就把它傳送過來。臺灣也是同樣。</p>
<p>我們想有一種理念,即我們是公衆和世界之間的聯絡站。世界是指這裏的主流社會。世界是指香港,中國,和臺灣。這樣他們能夠瞭解他們老家發生的事情。</p>
<p>通過24/7的操作,我想我們有大量的機會展示不同的觀點。對於公衆來講,這會影響他們的意見,我們就是要展示出來。</p>
<p>問:但沒有任何規定或者任何壓力[同時講話]---</p>
<p>王:沒有。實際上,我們是閉路電視。如果只是一般的UHF或VHF,我們需要執照或類似的東西,但這是閉路電視頻道。電臺操作員沒有給我們任何資助或監控。一切都是我們說了算,我們不但要娛樂,而且還要教育公衆和提供資訊。我認爲這是非常非常重要的。你提到社區裏有的人傾向左,有的人傾向右。有時你有一個議程,卻不能提出一個很中立的觀點。我們試圖至少站在能夠提供不同的觀點的立場上,這樣人們才能做出明智的選擇。</p>
<p>問:據我所知,中視不是紐約市唯一的中文廣播電臺。還有很多其他的。你們與其他電臺有什麽區別,你們是不是領頭人?你們是不是最大的?</p>
<p> 王:我認爲這應該由其他人來決定,但我認爲區別在於我們是很獨立的,也是本地的。你說得不錯,有其他一些中文電臺,但他們是香港的機構。他們的母公司或者在香港,或者在中國。還有一些電臺不是全天廣播。但我們經營自己的電臺,就像一個商業廣播電臺一樣。是完全按照我們能向公衆提供什麽類型的節目來獲取商業廣告,贏得用戶,因爲我們只有這樣才能獲得資助,所以我們同其他中文電視臺的運作有很大不同。</p>
<p>問:你是否認爲你們一部分的職責是作爲華人社區和美國主流社會的橋梁?</p>
<p>王:我本人希望如此,從商業角度來看,我們也希望如此。我想這是成功的關鍵。我們服務的公衆或觀衆可能有語言障礙,他們可能看不懂CNN,他們可能看不懂FOX新聞,我想我們願意充當橋梁來填補空缺,讓他們知道這個國家發生了什麽事情,紐約市發生了什麽事情。</p>
<p>我們也爲一些看,或懂英文看得懂CNN或MSNBC,但想知道中國或臺灣新聞的觀衆服務。他們也許會看紐約時報瞭解臺灣選舉,但來自臺灣的新聞會提供給他們一些不同的觀點。</p>
<p>從這個角度來看,我的確認爲我們充當了聯絡或者橋梁的角色,不單單是服務有語言障礙的公衆。我們想爲整個的華人公衆服務,面向主流社會以及他們的家鄉。</p>
<p>問:關於語言障礙,我們知道唐人街的很多人,因爲不講英語,很難融入美國主流社會。<br>
即使不談這些,在近十年福州社區增長最快。但你們電臺和你們的節目,包括電視和無線廣播,都使用廣州話和國語。我沒有確切的數位,但情況如何?誰在爲福州社區服務?如果他們不講英語,不講國語和廣州話,他們要從哪里獲得新聞?我想他們很多人都不識字,因爲他們是從農村來的。那他們是從哪里獲得資訊的?</p>
<p>王:我不知道你的資訊是否準確。你提出一個很好的問題。我們曾一度有和你一樣的想法,試圖找講福州話的廣播員製作,比如每晚三個小時的節目。但我收到的答復是福州人也講國語。他們不一定非要聽福州話。所以我認爲,今後這不會是個太大的問題。我想,其他方言會越來越多被國語取代,而非臺山話,或廣州話。現今這裏的確有相當多廣東人,但最終將會融合。</p>
<p>我們廣州話電臺有很多講國語的聽衆。他們打電話問,我們能不能講國語,我們說沒有問題。然後他們會用國語講他們的觀點,用國語提問題。</p>
<p>問:你也許知道,那不是現實,因爲唐人街非常多元化。沒有一種大家都能溝通的語言。</p>
<p>王:你覺得是這個問題嗎?</p>
<p>問:是的。福州社區的一些人跟我講,他們十分孤立,因爲唐人街很多服務不是面向他們的。於是他們作爲一個社區要爲自己做很多事情,<br>
因爲唐人街沒有面向他們的服務,因爲語言問題。</p>
<p>王:這個我不清楚。我想我們的服務應該面向所有華人,而不是某一個特定的群體。</p>
<p>問:你是否認爲因爲我們都是華人,唐人街是一個團結的社區嗎?</p>
<p>王:作爲整體來講,我認爲是的。總的看來是有進步。在9/11之後,唐人街的生意受到一定影響,但總的來講,仍是很繁榮,肯定要比我剛來紐約的時候好,也就是你剛才所講,一些人創建了很多他們需要的東西。</p>
<p>無論我是否贊同,我覺得這是一件好的事情。至少有人在做事情。傳統上,人們認爲中國人非常被動。現在,他們一旦意識到一個問題,就會做些事情,我想這是朝好的方向發展。</p>
<p>問:讓我們談論一下你提到的9/11。你在百老彙449號,離唐人街只有一條街,離Ground Zero也不遠。作爲一個社區廣播員,你認爲那個事件對這個行業有什麽衝擊?</p>
<p>王:我的確認爲沒有任何人願意看到9/11類似的事件再次發生。但諷刺的是,它的發生使我們更加有影響力。我們是在9/11之前的幾個月開通了無線廣播,中文電臺。在事件發生的時候,正如你所講,由於距離比較近,我們看到發生的一切,而幸運地的是,我們的傳輸器沒有受到影響。我們在廣播。我們播出了新聞,我們告訴人們發生了什麽事情,我們在那段期間充當了非常重要的角色,因爲在那時曾一度連報紙都沒有。<br>
人們都不知道要做什麽,我們把人們調集起來,我的兒子在學校,你認爲他能來,他要坐什麽車,要做些什麽,我能做些什麽?</p>
<p>你早些時候問我是否覺得唐人街很團結。即使不團結,我想也在那個方面有了很大的改進。我們不僅在傳播資訊上起了直接和主要的作用,而且當他們聽到詢問之後,如果我們不知道,人們自己,公衆自己,也會主動打電話提供資訊。我想過去沒有發生過這種事情。</p>
<p>問:你是說華人以那種方式來參與?</p>
<p>王:是的,積極地參與這個過程。比如,我們廣播說,如果你有手套,如果你有水,消防公司或警察局需要這些,等等。然後,他們會去那裏捐獻這些東西。在我們還在廣播這些公衆事務的時候,一位元聽衆打來電話說,“我剛剛去了消防公司XYZ,他們不再需要手套,他們已經有足夠的了。你應該捐獻給另外一個公司”。所以,他們自己的確非常投入全部的過程,而不是坐在那裏讓別人做這些事情。我覺得對於中國人來講這確實是一個非常巨大的進步,因爲在過去,大家都在忙自己的事情,而不去關心別人的事情。</p>
<p>但在這種情況下,他們的確做得非常出色。我們的無線電播音員日夜廣播,有些中餐館做了吃的送給我們。他們也有要求我們幫他們把食物送給警察,警察局或警察局總部,因爲他們確實想要幫忙。他們感到他們是社會的一部分。我在來這裏的30多年來第一次看到這種情景。我確實非常感動。<br>
很多人們感激我們舉行募捐,而且籌集了很多錢,但我想還是要感謝社區的民衆。</p>
<p>他們展示出來他們的確很關心,因爲很多人說,“啊,中國人來到這裏,賺了錢後就回家退休”,等等。但他們展現出來他們的確關心,他們是社會的一部分,他們希望能夠團結起來,他們想要告訴主流社會他們是團結的。我認爲那是一個非常強有力的資訊。</p>
<p>問:你還有談到捐款和錢。我想你是謙虛。你的電臺募捐到一百多萬美元,實在是---</p>
<p>王:是的,一百四十五萬---</p>
<p>問:在這個社區是完全空前的---</p>
<p>王:絕對地---</p>
<p>問:那是怎麽會事?是誰發起的?</p>
<p>王:我的老闆總是表揚我,說是我發起的。不,不是的。我想是社區的民衆發起的。他們打電話給我們。很多人打電話給電臺說,我們想要做些事情,我想開支票,我想捐錢,我要把支票寄到哪里。我們也總給他們提供資訊,“你只要寫‘紅十字會’”。但一些人連寫“紅十字會”都是個問題。他們不知道怎麽拼寫“紅”。你讓他們寫一個完整的地址都非常困難。然後他們就說,“我們能不能把支票送到電臺,你替我們寫”。</p>
<p>問:帶錢來,然後他們---</p>
<p> 王:不是。他們說,“我不知道怎麽寫,我能不能把支票送到電臺,你替我們寫?”如果只是一、兩個,沒有問題,但後來我們收到很多請求。當時,有人提議,“我們能不能把錢給你們?你們來寫,你們來寄。我們信任你們。你們來做”。</p>
<p>我們以前做過募捐。我們公司之前在社區裏做過一些募捐,而且也很成功,但我們不喜歡做,因爲無論你怎樣做,別人都會懷疑你拿了一部分錢---</p>
<p>問:有一些腐敗---</p>
<p>王:是的,裝進你自己的腰包什麽的。因此我們確實不想做。但這種要求非常非常強烈。於是,我說服了我的老闆,我們必須要做些事情,因爲如果有五個電話,四個是要求我們做這個的。當時我們說,“好吧,我們會做,你可以給現金,或者送到電臺,我們會立即給你一張收據,我們不會拿你的錢”。當我們開始的時候,我們想頂多會有五萬、十萬。頭幾天我們超過十萬了,好像是二十萬。然後勁頭越來越足。不斷地有人捐款。當到了一百萬時,很多人打電話稱讚我們說,“啊,你的電臺很好,我們非常支援你的電臺。沒有你們電臺我們不會知道我們做了些什麽,我們發揮了什麽作用,讓我們繼續做,湊到1430。”那個時候我們電臺的頻率是1430。</p>
<p>就這樣,他們做到了。他們不斷寫支票,不斷有支票來,我們非常---在1430我們停了下來。我們說,夠了,我們完成了,我們要把這筆錢捐獻給世貿中心基金和紅十字會。但還有一些錢在郵寄中,所以最後是一百四十五萬美元。[笑]。</p>
<p> 你在談到團結。我認爲這確實顯示如果華人想要顯示他們的團結他們是能夠做到的。他們的確能夠做到。很多人說是我們的功勞,我們收到很多獎賞。但有時當我不得不講些感謝之類的話的時候,我的確認爲這應該是社區民衆的功勞,因爲他們從未做過這樣的事情。從來沒有。</p>
<p>問:這是非常慷慨的,的確令人吃驚,正如你所講,中國人大多時候只是照料自己---</p>
<p>王:是的。沒錯。</p>
<p>問:但你是否覺得有部分原因是因爲唐人街的位置離Ground Zero非常近,好像從結果來看唐人街也受到了攻擊。如果這發生在,比如說Harlem,你認爲華人社區會做出同樣的反應嗎?</p>
<p>王:這是一個悲劇。我想如果事件的影響如此之大,他們是會這樣做的。但到了這個極端,我想你講得沒錯,是因爲距離很近。他們能感受到更多的衝擊,他們將感受到更多,因爲他們在這裏,他們看的到,聞的到。我不知道你在哪里,在那之後的一個月我們都在這裏。味道很難聞。</p>
<p>問:先停一下,我們要換磁帶。</p>
<p>王:好的。</p>
<p>[第一盤磁帶第一面完;第一盤磁帶第二面開始]</p>
<p>問:你剛才談到在9/11之後華人展現的這種出人意料的團結。作爲播音員,很明顯你看到人們真誠地信任你,並且把你當作可靠的資訊來源,因爲每個電臺,每個廣播網,每個媒體都在播放同樣的事件,而這麽多人都看你的節目。你認爲是什麽使你們會有這種地位,<br>
人們都在看你們的節目,而不去其他中文電臺捐獻這許多錢?</p>
<p>王:我想有幾個原因。第一是我們服務社區已有二十六年多了,因此我想我們有華人社區公衆的支援。我認爲這是第一點。我想第二點是媒體的廣播會達到如此多的人,播放非常及時。在那段期間,他們不懂主流報道,又沒有報紙和運輸。如果他們住在皇后區,他們過不來;如果他們住在布魯克林區也過不來。即使他們住在唐人街,他們也可能很難走動,在某種程度上我們成爲了他們的朋友。當你能提供資訊,日日夜夜成爲他們的夥伴的時候,這必然會建立起那種信任。當他們來到這裏時,他們看到是正規的電臺,就是這樣在民衆之間傳開的。我們就是這樣建立起信任的。</p>
<p>同時,我想是通過展現自己的方式來建立起信任的。我們的節目和廣播都製作得非常好,是日日夜夜工作。即使是我們的DJ,他們都知道的,因爲他們聽到相同的聲音。幾乎是24小時不間斷。那是他們從未體驗過的。因爲在過去,你收聽一個節目,然後關掉,或又有另外一個DJ播音,但這是24小時全天候,是同一組DJ播音。我們一些DJ也被感動了,甚至在播音時哭了。我們也有採訪別人,受難者的家屬,他們來到這裏,我們採訪他們。這給聽衆的感觸很大。</p>
<p>因此,我們就是這樣贏得他們的信任的。</p>
<p>問:你是否認爲唐人街在主流媒體上沒有得到足夠的報導,尤其是這裏離Ground Zero很近,而且社區裏有很多居民。</p>
<p> 王:是的,絕對是的,我認爲是的。不---我們募捐了一百四十五萬,對不對?是的,我們得到很多報導,我還能給你舉一個例子。我現在手頭沒有,但我想每天,在那期間,如果有人捐了六萬塊錢報紙上會有很大的地方登他們的照片。但我們有被報導,但沒有象其他族裔那麽顯眼。</p>
<p>問:你是否認爲這是因爲亞裔社區沒有領導者?唐人街確實沒有一位元在這類事件發生時來代表社區的,能夠站出來---</p>
<p>王:[笑] 我想歷史上,作爲一個團體,我們向來不擅長表達。作爲一個團體,我們不是非常---我還不是講有領導或沒有領導,作爲一個團體,我們從來不會積極地表達自己。我們沒有很積極地參與政治活動。</p>
<p>問:你說9/11擡高了你們組織的地位,據我所知是你把支票交給了市長Giuliani---</p>
<p>王:是的。</p>
<p>問:---在市政廳,有了如此的爆光,這意味著什麽?這對今後有什麽影響,節目的改變,還是你對你在社區所負責任的看法?這一事件是否導致了什麽變化?</p>
<p>王:正如我所講,這提高了我們的知名度。我想這使我們能夠在社區更加容易拉廣告贊助。但這更加強調了我們必須要在我們的節目中突出社區的需要,我認爲這是十分重要的。我總是主張提供一個供公衆表達自己言論的節目,在我們的廣播中討論問題,我想這一點我們做得很出色。</p>
<p> 問:如果華人社區能在9/11事件中團結起來,現在已經過去兩年多了,你是否認爲那個短暫的團結使得唐人街有了些積極的改變?你是否覺得民衆,不同的團體之間的交流增多了,或都在一起努力重建唐人街?還是說大家又恢復了原樣,在事件之後又回到原來的狀態?</p>
<p>王:我從未注意過不同的團體在做什麽,因此我很難回答這個問題。但我想這確實顯示出那個事件,或那段時期,華人作爲一個群體,如果他們想要做些事情,他們能夠團結起來實現他們的目標。但是否有人領導,是否有一個團體想領導或表示要領導,我不清楚。我不知道。我對當地的政治還沒有瞭解得這樣仔細,但我感到非常自豪---這已經改變了我的看法。這確實已改變我的觀點。我現在在這裏待了這麽長時間,這的確證明瞭---,我從來沒想到中國人會這麽關注周圍發生的事情。中國人總是要確保他們的孩子得到好的教育,他們要確保在銀行裏有足夠的錢過日子,付房租等等。</p>
<p>但我想現在他們已變得更加關心他們周圍發生的事情。我想這是非常好的。</p>
<p>問:你的電臺是否做---,你們有沒有增加對公衆的廣播,或者增加節目來教育華人社區?</p>
<p>王:是的,我們有。實際上,我剛才談到政治進程,舉民登記。很多人不懂得選舉權利的力量。因此,我們想鼓勵人們去登記。我想前幾個星期我們在這裏舉行了一次活動---,我們出版了一本雜誌,周刊雜誌。是本很流行的雜誌。每個星期六有人過來買雜誌。<br>
有一個星期六我們開始了選民登記。在三個小時內,我們登記了近兩百人。</p>
<p>也許兩百人聽起來是個很小的數目,但你要考慮到大多數人,不是大多數---一些人,他們可能不是永久居民。有些人可能甚至沒有合法身份。能在三個小時內登記兩百個符合條件的選民的確是個不小的數目。從現在到選舉的時候,我們還想多做一些。我想這的確使民衆懂得,如果他們想要做些什麽,如果他們想要得到他們想要的福利或會對他們的孩子有影響的什麽東西,投票是一個十分強大的工具。我們希望能夠實現我們的目標。</p>
<p>問:作爲一個電臺整體,今後你對你們電臺有什麽樣的打算?中國電視還能做些什麽?</p>
<p>王:如果---[笑]---我告訴你,如果我能夠實現,通過提供娛樂和教育公衆,成爲華人社區和主流社會之間的一座橋梁,我想我已經達到了,而且我做得很出色。那是一個持久的過程。你不能停下來。對於娛樂,你能把節目做得更好,你能進口很多節目。但真要弄清楚社區的需要,你必須要選擇特殊的問題,社會問題,關注實事,政府的專案,這些會影響到美籍華人的生活。</p>
<p>我想我們一定要一方面向華人公衆提供資訊,另一方面爲他們提供一個論壇讓他們發表意見,使他們有機會發表意見。</p>
<p>問:關於他們在美國的生活。</p>
<p>王:是的。比如,兩個星期前我們慶祝安裝了新的電視設備,曼哈頓的區長來爲我們剪綵。<br>
隨後我給她寫了封信,感謝她的參與。我同時請她以區長的身份一起製作一個每周一次或每月一次的節目。這就是我的意思,成爲一種聯繫,在社區和---</p>
<p>問:你想讓更多的華人參與。</p>
<p>王:更多的參與。像一些小的事情,正如你所講,他們有時會感到一些團體受到冷落。我覺得作爲一個整體華人有時是覺得自己很孤立。他們可能不知道爲什麽,比如,在這裏停車要罰款。他們會有這種想法。爲什麽要我來清除我房前的樹。</p>
<p>但如果你請求一位政府官員回答這些問題,這類問題,這樣會使問題更加容易受到主流社會的注意。這樣他們會感到別人在注意我們。這就是我們想要充當的角色。</p>
<p>問:你們是否有計劃把你們的電臺推向全國,這樣全美國都能看到?</p>
<p>王:我們希望如此,但那是一個商業決定。我認爲一個電臺的成功,如我先前所講,在於在當地的參與,如在全國範圍內搞,從娛樂角度來看,也許是好的,但對於不同的社區,你仍然必須在當地搞。當我們面向全國時,這會是個挑戰。</p>
<p>問:你是否打算要接受這個挑戰?你要繼續在這個公司做下去嗎?</p>
<p>王:[笑] 我不知道。我想這裏還是很有意思的。但我想有很多在這裏工作人知道我的想法。而且我們正在朝那個目標努力,無論我是否在這裏,無論是否由我來管理,這並不重要。</p>
<p> 問:這是個好的迹象。是一個好的經理的徵兆。如果你離開,一切還會運轉,對嗎?</p>
<p>王:謝謝你。</p>
<p>這是很重要的。否則,我想媒體的力量會喪失的。我認爲,做生意,做好生意是一件重要的事情,但弄清楚社區的需要也是十分重要的,因此---你也是搞媒體的,用不著我跟你講這些。</p>
<p>問:回顧過去,你是否滿意你所做出的選擇?沒有成爲李安你不後悔嗎?</p>
<p>王:[笑] Um---</p>
<p>問:沒有惋惜?</p>
<p>王:沒有,我沒有任何惋惜。我是十分幸運的。誰會想到一個出自貧窮家庭的男孩能夠到我現在的地步?倒不是說我很成功,但我做了些有意義的事情。我認爲這是很重要的。我是否高興?是的。總的來說,我高興。我們應該總是有高的目標。</p>
<p>問:你仍然年輕。還有時間。</p>
<p>王:[笑] 照相機看不出來,是不是?看這兒。</p>
<p>問:我想你自己也許也很驚奇已經跟我們分享了這麽多你沒有預料到的---</p>
<p>[笑聲]</p>
<p> 王:是的,是我一輩子的歷史。 </p>
<p>問:既然攝影機還在拍,你還有什麽我沒有問到,要補充或告訴公衆的嗎?</p>
<p>王:沒有。我想你差不多都問到了。</p>
<p>問:那感謝你,Tony,感謝你的時間---</p>
<p>王:不客氣,不客氣。</p>
<p>問:我是鄭愛蘭。</p>
<p>[採訪完畢]</p>
Dublin Core
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Title
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Tony Wang
911DA Item
Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item.
Status
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approved
Consent
Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item.
unknown
Posting
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unknown
Copyright
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unknown
Source
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
William Chiu
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Florence Ng
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-03-30
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
business man
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: Mr. Chiu, could you please describe your life in
Hong Kong before you immigrated to the United States?
</p>
<p>
Chiu: Actually, I spent even less time in Hong Kong than
in America, just19 years. My memory dates back to when I was six
years old. I vaguely remember that we moved from Kowloon Tong to
Central District and lived on D'Aguilar Street, on the second floor,
above some bar. I just recently went back and saw the place, so
that’s how I know. I used to be a wild kid. My parents worked
in the business of “home banquet.” Back then, there
weren’t any cars on D'Aguilar Street, so we kids would go
roughhouse in lots of places around there, playing “soldiers
chasing thieves.”
</p>
<p>
Q: When was that?</p>
<p>
Chiu: That was when I was six, around 1958. We moved to
Central and lived on D'Aguilar Street for two years because the
previous landlord forced us to move out. Two years later, we moved to
Wo On Lane which was on the opposite side of D’Aguilar Street
and still in the Lan Kwai Fong neighbourhood. Two years later, we
moved to Wing Wah Lane. We lived there until 1963. My father was
sick and had two strokes, so my mother wouldn’t let him work.
They sold the business to their employees and friends. My father
later accepted an offer to work as a chef in Japan at Liu Yuen
[Restaurant] where he taught the Japanese how to cook. That was a lot
easier. He only had to work eight hours a day instead of working
constantly.
</p>
<p>
Q: How busy had your family business been?</p>
<p>
Chiu: As far as I remember, during our busiest
periods, we had 22 workers, four to five chefs, and catered several
places a night.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was the home banquet business popular back then?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Actually, there were not that many experts in that
field. Some of them ran their own restaurants or worked in the
restaurant business. People from Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces liked
to entertain their guests at home and have chefs come cook the meal.
First of all, the atmosphere was a lot more cozy. Second, it was more
convenient for them to chat with their friends and fellow businessmen
at home. Usually, the homes were huge. Some of them had an entire
floor, and some had a whole building in places like Kowloon Tong,
Happy Valley and Mid-Levels. At his peak, my father was extremely
busy every day, working from very early to very late.
</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chiu, why did you come to the United States?</p>
<p>
Chiu: That’s a long story. My mother later told us
that my father came to Hong Kong from Shanghai in 1950, while my
mother came to Hong Kong in 1951. I was born in Hong Kong in 1952. In
1948, my father had come to Fuzhou city and married my mother. I
have an older sister who was born in Shanghai in 1949. My father
didn’t understand business at the time that he moved from
Shanghai to Hong Kong. He had heard people say that he could make
money selling towels, and so he spent all his savings on buying
towels. But when he came to Hong Kong, nobody would buy them and he
lost a lot of money. A lot of people from Shanghai went to Hong Kong
for business. One of these men, who worked as a lawyer for the Xu
family, asked my father, “Why don’t you come to my house
and work as a chef?” So my father worked there, and the Xu
family taught him a lot of dishes. They were wonderful. Mrs. Xu
constantly taught my father how to cook Shanghai dishes. When Mrs. Xu
went to Shanghai-style restaurants, she would ask the chef how he
made the dishes, and when she returned, she’d teach my father
how to do it. So my father can cook Shanghai dishes really well.
After Mr. Xu immigrated to the United States, he
missed my
father and asked, “Master Chef, what can I do for you? Would
you like to come to America?” My father said yes. My father had
previously registered as a refugee and applied for immigration at a
Catholic church, but there was no response. Mr. Xu said: “When
I get there, I will find a way to apply for you.” But we heard
nothing, all the way until I was a teenager, so we thought we didn’t
have any opportunity to immigrate. Even my father brought it up,
saying, “If Mr. Xu was there and had applied for us to go over
to the U.S., I wouldn’t need to pay so much tuition and I
wouldn’t need to work so hard. If you want to study abroad, go
to Taiwan.”
</p>
<p>
Maybe fate arranged it. Before he died, Mr. Xu’s
said that his last wish was that his promise to help Chef Chiu
immigrate be fulfilled. Mr. Xu had a daughter, Mrs. Lee, the owner
of the Lee Travel Agency. Mr. and Mrs. Lee enthusiastically searched
everywhere for my father, but couldn’t find him. One time,
leading a tour to Japan, they came across my father in Liu Yuen,
where he worked as a chef. Mr. Lee asked my father, “Chef
Chiu, do you want to come to the United States?” My father said
yes. When Mr. and Mrs. Lee returned to the United States, they
requested Mr. Yip of Zhi Mei Lou Restaurant to apply for us to go to
America using the sixth preference. In less than three months, while
my father was still in Japan, the application was approved. My father
returned to Hong Kong and applied for our family. We have nine
people in our family. My sister was in Denmark at that time and was
not included. That was around August and we had six months to get the
visa. You can see we had no idea of what United States was like, so
why did we still want to come? That is a long story.</p>
<p>
Hong Kong was annexed to Britain because of the Opium
war. I didn’t know that before, I only cared about eating and
sleeping, and my parents had to force me to study. I still remember
that during the peak of my family business, servants would send me to
school and take me home while I studied at Raymondi College.</p>
<p>
In secondary school, the curriculum stopped
when it got to modern [Chinese] history such as the anti-Qing dynasty
movement and the Republic of China. After that, no more history was
taught. That was in Form 4 [equivalent to Grade 10 in US educational
system]. I was confused about modern history. Why was Taiwan
protected by the U.S. government? Taiwan was recognised by the U.S.
government
and protected by it. Why was China called
<em>Shina</em>? Some called Chiang Kai-shek <em>Chiang Fei </em>[robber
Chiang]. Or Mao Zedong <em>Mao Zei</em> [thief Mao]? Why were things
that way? The purpose of studying is to gain knowledge, so how can it
be shameful to ask? Questioning is the key to acquire knowledge. I
asked the teacher, “What are <em>Chiang Fei</em> and<em> Mao Zei</em>?”
Who knew that I would create a huge scene? The teacher I had come
across had followed Chiang Kai-shek in the army. Screaming “Do
you want to live?” he came at me and grabbed my waist.
Pointing at my head, he yelled, “You dare call President Chiang
<em>Chiang Fei</em>? I’ll cut your head off!” I responded
by saying that I only asked because I didn’t know, and that I
could only know things by asking. “You still want to argue?”
the teacher said. I was punished for my behavior. Without any
reason, I was punished. From that day onwards, I started doing
research, since the teacher would not explain things to me. If it’s
OK to say <em>Mao Zei </em>, why not <em>Chiang Fei</em>? That was the
beginning of my quest for political knowledge, because I had been
wrongly punished and that was too upsetting.</p>
<p>
From that day onwards, this teacher of Chinese
literature and history deliberately gave me a hard time, so I studied
extra hard and thoroughly learned the texts of Chinese literature and
history. Later, when I no longer needed to study modern history, I
relaxed, since I didn’t have to study it every day any more.</p>
<p>
You know why Lin Zexu burned the opium in Humen? Why the
Chinese were defeated by the British because of their anti-opium drug
efforts in Humen? Why that would make Hong Kong become the colony of
the British government? I hated the Japanese who invaded our
country. I hated the British who smuggled opium into China and
victimized the Chinese. I was also puzzled at why the swath of land
making up China and Taiwan were divided up into left and right. I
thought it didn’t make sense and was unreasonable. I was
biased against the British government. If the British had not
victimized Chinese, China wouldn’t be so easily defeated. So
that was where I got my sense of warlike indignation.</p>
<p>
I learned kung fu before. I think I already told her
that I lived on D’Aguilar Street when I was young. My kung fu
master used to do business on D’Agilar Street and lived in the
building across from us. I was a wild kid and I was playing once on
the stone staircases, which were wet and thick with moss. I was
pretending to be a thief,
and someone was chasing me, and I
stepped on the slippery moss and slid. “Thump!” I had
cracked open my head. The scar is still here. I was about eight. My
kung fu master was across the street, and he stopped the bleeding and
cured me. In 1964 we moved to Graham Street. The master also moved
to the opposite side of the street from us. You could say it was
fate. I started to learn the Cai Lifo school of martial art from my
master Lee Pak-ling (also known as Lee Pak), who is the third
generation of Cai Lifo.</p>
<p>
Q: Is it because you didn’t like the British
government, so you turned to the American government?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Yes. Since the British government was a colonial
government and took Hong Kong like that and suppressed the Hong Kong
people. Especially within the government departments, where the
government officials were bullying others. I thought, what kind of
world was that?</p>
<p>
Besides, in school, I learnt that the United States was
huge, but had no idea how big it was. I had only thought of studying
in Taiwan because studying in America was too expensive. But apart
from Chinese literature and history- the only two subjects that were
taught in Chinese- no other subjects were taught in Chinese in Hong
Kong. I had no clue [what the other subjects were if they were taught
] in Chinese.</p>
<p>
I wanted to be a doctor and study at Taiwan National
University. At that time, only Taiwan was being recognized as China.
The biology and chemistry tests were done in Chinese. It might be
okay if the tests were carried out in English. But when it came to
Chinese, I did not even understand what the questions meant. So I
failed the Taiwan University admission tests.</p>
<p>
Since my Chinese skills weren’t so good, and I
couldn’t be a doctor, I decided to become a merchant. I wanted
to really do it and work my way up from the bottom. I passed only
three to four subjects in my high school graduation examination and
did not pass the basic requirement of passing five subjects.
</p>
<p>
My god-mother worked for an American businessman whose
name was Gibson and originally resided in Chicago. He referred me to
his business partner Mr. Kent P.
Koo. As soon as he met
me, Mr. Koo said, “All right, come and work for us!” I
worked as a low ranking junior in the Tak Sing International Export &
Import Co. Ltd. Tak Sing International Export & Import Company
is an exporter to the United States and Canada, specialised in wool
sweaters and exports to Britain, United States, Canada and Australia.
My god-mother’s boss, Mr. Gibson, was an American importer from
Chicago. With her referral, one of the heads not only accepted me but
luckily gave me a special favour. He said, “You may look at the
files, you can look at anything you want.” Actually, that was
not allowed. How come? Office hours started at 9am. I was there at
7:30am. I studied the files one by one. If I was free, I practiced
typing. I re-typed some of the files. Some of the staff members were
not happy about this. There were over 30 employees. Some directors
saw me and told me, “Do you know these files are confidential
and you are not supposed to look at them?” I answered, “The
boss asked me to read them.” The director then said, “If
the boss said so, let it be.”
</p>
<p>
Quickly, within six months, I mastered the concept of
the trade. My boss was very nice to me. He taught me how to negotiate
a business, how to get a sample, how to get payment, how to charge,
how to get a letter of credit, how to write a confirmation, how to
sell your contract to the bank, etc. After the six-month period, I
was promoted three grades upward, but my pay remained the same.
Besides typing, I checked the goods and worked on confirmation, etc.
I worked in every sector.</p>
<p>
Other juniors ran errands, but I worked as a
representative. Others lined up and were yelled at by the colonial
officials at government offices, but I would fight back. I disliked
the way the colonial officials bullied others. Even though the people
obediently lined up, they were still being scolded. I stood up and
said, “Let me see your supervisor. There’s a problem with
your attitude.” They were scared and let me go first. Hence, I
could finish my assignments a lot quicker than other people. I always
looked for their supervisors since I was representing Tak Sing
International Export & Import Company. When other employees went
out and carried a bag, I asked my company to buy me a briefcase. The
accountant said, “Who do you think you are to buy a briefcase?”
I said, “I represent the authority of Tak Sing company. I can’t
do it without a briefcase.” He was dumbfounded and bought it
for me. I used to
wash the dishes and my hands became
coarse, so I asked the company to get me some lotion. The accountant
said, “Why do you want to buy lotion? Nobody is as fussy as you
are.” I said, “If I hurt my hand from washing mugs, would
the company compensate me for that?” Probably because of my
good relationship with the boss, they didn’t refuse.
</p>
<p>
If I was determined to do it, I could finish eight to
nine assignments in a day, even though I’d end up in a sweat.
Therefore, my boss always praised me, saying “Well done!”
and gave me tips to buy food. I was only 17 or 18 years old back
then.</p>
<p>
I worked at Tak Sing company for a year before I came
to the United States. I studied accounting at night. Why? I thought
accounting was indispensable. I could not work unless I understood
accounting. Since I studied accounting before, I would test the
accountants in my company, as they might not be certified
accountants, and I had already started learning it in Hong Kong.
</p>
<p>
Q: Please talk about the moment you learned you would
be coming to the United States. How did you feel?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I was very happy when I learned I would come to
the United States. My boss was working on business in North and
South America, so I worked on business opportunities in Africa. I
didn’t want to learn my boss’ business and steal it from
him. I wanted to embark on a new path. It’s easy to do
business in America, and he had large orders, but profits were small.
My region on the other hand had smaller orders and bigger profits.
Just when I was about to propose to my boss that we explore that
region, my immigrant application was approved. I had to say goodbye
to my boss and worked until December of that year. My boss was very
understanding. He told me that he was a soldier in the United States
during World War II. Later on, he went from the United States to Hong
Kong and stayed here to do business.</p>
<p>
When I came to America, plane tickets were very
expensive. I wanted to do business, and so I had to search and ask
all over to find the cheapest rates. Now, if I was doing a travel
agency, I would be able to get the cheapest fare. I suggested this to
the Lee Travel Agency and they agreed and helped us get the lowest
fare. Why?
Our benefactor was Mrs. Lee, or put it this
way, Mr. Xu, Mrs. Lee’s father. If not for his words, we would
still be in Hong Kong. I will never forget Mrs Lee’s good deeds
to me and I will always remember Mrs. Lee and the Xus who offered us
great help.
</p>
<p>
The Chinese lived a repressed life under the British
rule. Even if we were British, we were considered second class
citizens. They could distinguish you and say that you still needed a
visa to go to Britain. That’s ridiculous. They recognized you
as British subjects but not as British citizens. Their attitude was
to discriminate against all British subjects. Only those in Britain
were British. I thought that was undemocratic. Besides, I thought
Britain was a country of thieves. Why? Her prosperity was built on
selling opium. They invaded other countries for profit and stole the
land from the Chinese. In school, Britain was called the land where
the sun never set, and it seemed so glorious. When I learned that
Britain invaded China because Lin Zexu, the governor of Guangdong and
Guangxi provinces, had destroyed their opium, I hated the British
even more.</p>
<p>
The British youth in Hong Kong really liked to harass
Chinese youth. They walked with a swagger. When they passed by a
Chinese youth, they’d elbow him hard. You were supposed to be
scared. They wanted to make you avoid them. They were that way to
everybody. I had the exact opposite reaction. If they hit me, I
elbowed them back. They were in too much pain to say anything. I
would say [sarcastically,] “Oh, I’m in so much pain! You
really hurt me!” They didn’t dare say anything.</p>
<p>
There was one British teenager who would hit Chinese
in their stomach when they passed. When he passed by me, I knew he
was about to hit me, so I punched him. He was in so much pain that he
couldn’t speak. <strong>A lot of similar incidents made me think
that opposite outcomes would result when things were being pushed so
far. </strong>
</p>
<p>
During the 1966 fascist riot [in Hong Kong], there
were a lot of fights. People in school were divided into leftists and
rightists and I didn’t have a very clear idea what was going
on. Some of them said, “We should sing <em>Dong Fang Hong</em>
[Red Sun Rises in the East] in unison and fight against the British
government.” Considering the conciliatory policy of the Hong
Kong government, and the way that
Chinese were suppressed,
I disliked Hong Kong even more. I did not want to be a colonial
subject. If I had to be a colonial subject, I would rather be an
American colonial subject.
</p>
<p>
When we emigrated to the United States, we were
thrilled. We bought our air tickets to the United States from the
Japan Airlines. My father worked in Tokyo for eight years and made so
many friends in Japan that his Japanese friends flew all the way from
Japan to Hong Kong to visit my father. I also learned Japanese for
three months but I never used the language. I had already thought
that the airport in Tokyo was big, and I was astounded at John F.
Kennedy Airport. It was as big as a world, with an impressive
ambiance and a view that seemed to go forever. Others were jetlagged
but not me. I was full of energy within the first three days after I
arrived. That was in 1971, the first time I saw it snow.
</p>
<p>
I worked at Zhi Mei Lou as a waiter trainee. Zhi Mei
Lou was located at where Subway Deli is now- at the intersection of
East Broadway, Bowery and Doyer Street. The second or third store,
south of Doyers Street and next to a mall, where Subway Deli is now
was the location of Zhi Mei Lou restaurant. That was the restaurant
which applied for my father. You can say we were a very lucky family.</p>
<p>
Q: Was it very difficult to apply to the United States
back then?</p>
<p>
Chiu: If you didn’t have the right qualifications,
your application wouldn’t be accepted. Why do you think so
many people snuck off ships [into the United States] and so many
overseas Chinese students over-stay and won’t leave? The
American immigration policies were lenient, so then these people
ended up staying. Most of the community leaders [in Chinatown] came
here illegally on boats or over-stayed in the country while foreign
students and never went back to China. Very few were legal
immigrants. Very few of them were born here, especially the
Fujianese. I remember there used to be only one Fujianese association
with a rather paltry membership, only a few hundred people. Nowadays,
in the tri-state area, we have, by a conservative estimate, 500,000
to 600,000 Fujianese people.
</p>
<p>
Q: You mentioned that your father applied for
refugee status to the United Status through the church in Hong Kong.
What happened then?</p>
<p>
Chiu: The refugee application was like a boulder that
fell into the sea, with absolutely no response. When we emigrated we
had to report this in the application. Otherwise, I would not even
know, because I was so small then.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was applying for a refugee visa hard?</p>
<p>
Chiu: To put it frankly, unless you’ve got special
skills and a sponsor, don’t even think about it.</p>
<p>
The Chinatown of 1971 was vastly different from the
current one. The amount of business in Mott Street was nothing
compared to the current Chinatown. There were only two or three
streets then. I came in 1971 and worked in Zhi Mei Lou Restaurant and
as a waiter trainee. I was not given any salary and I had to pay for
my round trip subway fare. At the time, the fare had just increased
to 50 cents. Now it’s two dollars. I used to get up early.
Back in Hong Kong, there was no such thing as being late for work,
although things are different now. I used to get up at 4 a.m. and got
there at 6 a.m..
</p>
<p>
Q: Where do you live now?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I live at Setauket near Stony Brook on Long
Island. It takes an hour and fifteen minutes to commute here if the
traffic is good, but if there’s a traffic jam, it could take up
to 4 ½ hours.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you live in Chinatown back then?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Back then, I lived in the Bronx because I had to
learn to be a waiter trainee in Chinatown. My father’s friend
got us an apartment in the Bronx next to his home, and I paid a
dollar for subway fare each day to work. These people told me ahead
of
time, “We’re not going to pay you. You can
have breakfast, lunch and dinner [with us], and we’ll teach you
how to set and clean tables. If you learn fast, we’ll teach you
how to take orders.” I trained at the Zhi Mei Lou Restaurant
for a month. After a week, an elderly waiter told me, “Boy, I
don’t care what others think. If you do a good job and give me
a hand, I’ll give you a dollar a day so that you don’t
lose money taking the subway.” So I earned twenty-one dollars
that month from this waiter. He’s still in Chinatown now.
When the month was over, they said, “You’ve earned enough
and don’t need to come anymore.” Mr. Chiang asked me, “Do
you want to be a substitute worker? I can let you work three days a
week. Do you want to do it?” I said yes.
</p>
<p>
At that time, the Chinatown waiters had bad attitudes.
Bowls were thrown on the tables, where they’d clatter loudly,
and they wouldn’t refill tea for the customers. I had only
worked there for one month, but I thought that behaviour was wrong.
I set the table quickly. I cleaned up fast. I refilled the water
fast. In one word, I was perfect. I’ll tell you something
funny. I was a substitute and an unskilled fresh worker, who earned
very little money and needed help from others. They didn’t want
to share tips with me. They would just send me to the inside of the
restaurant [which they seldom filled with customers], left me to work
on my own, and sent over the “iron customers” who gave no
tips.
</p>
<p>
One of these “iron customers” was
astonished at how I treated him and asked, “Why do you serve me
so well? You’re so polite, you greet me, give me water and
take away used dishes.” I replied, “You’re my
customer here and since I represent the restaurant, shouldn’t I
treat you nicely?” He was surprised and asked, “Don’t
you know I’m not going to give you any tip?” I said,
“That’s not important. You’re the customer, so I
want you to be satisfied. If you’re satisfied, that’s
enough.” Unexpectedly, he gave me a 20% tip when he checked
out. The other waiters said, “Boy, we’ll share tips with
you.” This is the way the world works. People will bully you
if you’re new, but if you turn out to be useful, they’ll
want to be your friend. But I left after three months. I believe they
would have given me a permanent job if I wanted. But I chose to
leave, since, first of all, I had to study. Secondly, I thought it
was a waste to earn several dozens dollars each day. Fujianese people
worked hard.
We could work three shifts a day - eight hours
a shift- without sleep. They worked until they died and remitted the
money back home [in China]. Their ability to work was extreme.
However, if I worked for Chinese bosses, I could not work two shifts.
</p>
<p>
I had originally intended to study, but I ended up not
doing it. I went into a college and asked about the tuition and
credit. They said I had to study 12 credits. I asked how much was a
credit. They said two hundred dollars a credit. I asked how many
credits did I need to study in a day. They said three credits. I
cried: “Woah! How can I get that much money for tuition?”
So, instead, I asked my younger brothers and sisters to study in
high schools since it was free, and after one year residency in New
York, you could study at NY colleges at their local resident rate,
which was a lot cheaper. My father earned only six hundred dollars a
month. I told him, “I will make money for you and we’ll
pay off the debt first, until our financial situation improves.”
My father agreed because it was too hard to sustain a family with
only his [monthly] salary of six hundred dollars. My family needed
three hundred dollars a month for living expenses and more to repay
debt. We owed a lot to Mrs. Lee; most of the debt was for the air
tickets. If I had to work two shifts to earn enough money, I could
not work as a waiter in Chinatown. I wouldn’t earn enough
money that way. So whatever places other people recommended to me, I
went there and tried my luck.</p>
<p>
The first restaurant I turned to was Reuben
Restaurant, a first class restaurant at the time, which was famous
for its cheese cakes and Reuben sandwiches. I went in there to
enquire about job vacancy. The supervisor said, “Sorry, Sorry,
we don’t have any vacancies for waiters.”</p>
<p>
I asked, “How about busboy? Busboy. I would be
very good at that too.”</p>
<p>
He said, “If you’re willing to be a
busboy, then we can use you. We need some busboys.”</p>
<p>
I said, “Okay, then I’ll work as a busboy,
and when you have an opening for a waiter, give it to me.”
</p>
<p>
The caption said okay. Actually, he didn’t know
my abilities, and was not serious. He was a Hispanic captain.
</p>
<p>
It’s not just the Chinese that have
pride. Non-Chinese are the same way. Hispanics, Blacks, Italians are
all the same way. In each case, they’ll bully others. I
thought, first of all, since I was a new worker, I should give way to
others. If they crossed the limit and started bullying me, then I’d
resist. I almost got in a fight with a Puerto Rican. Why? As a
bus-boy, each person had his own station [with silverware]. Sometimes
he’d take my stuff to use, saying, “Let me borrow it.”</p>
<p>
I said, “No problem. We’re friends. We’ll
work together, right?”</p>
<p>
But when I ran out, and had to borrow silverware, he
said, “Don’t touch my stuff!”</p>
<p>
“That’s fine too. Let’s not fight
about it. But next time, don’t borrow my things either.”
I learned fast.</p>
<p>
Next time, I didn’t let him borrow my stuff, and
he said, “What did you say?” and punched me in the
stomach.</p>
<p>
I knew I should give way to them and not fight, so I
said, “Fine. Don’t punch me again.”</p>
<p>
He said, “What are you going to do if I punch
you?”</p>
<p>
I said, “This is your last chance. Don’t
touch me again.” He punched me again, a total of three times.
I fought back using the Cai Lifo punching style, and knocked him to
the floor. He said, “I’m sorry, Mr. Chiu.” He
didn’t bully me anymore.
</p>
<p>
Wasn’t that humiliating for him? Chinese should
be willing to give way, but we can’t be too submissive. Three
times is enough.
</p>
<p>
Q: Were you the only Chinese who worked in the
restaurant?</p>
<p>
Chiu: There were two Chinese, no, three Chinese workers.
One was older, another one was about my age. I was the youngest,
because I was only 19. They were timid and let people bully them. I
wouldn’t allow that. I wanted the same rights, and I would
fight for the Chinese people. I would not be silent and I wanted to
fight against injustice.
</p>
<p>
Besides the other guy, there was one other employee
who said I couldn’t handle him, and who wanted to fight. He
tried to attack me, but I didn’t give in.
Each time
he came at me, I escaped him, and no matter how he came after me, he
couldn’t catch me. I fought back in such a way that I
immobilized him. He said, “Come on, let me fight.”</p>
<p>
I immediately shouted for the captain. I said, “He
started things. If he wants to fight, I don’t mind. But you
have to be the witness. If he gets killed, it’s not my
problem.” He tried to grab me, and I slipped past, but he was
able to tear my clothes apart. He knew martial arts, but I was not
scared. If I had to fight, I would beat him until he couldn’t
stand, but I wanted a witness. The captain slapped him [in the face]
and said, “Fighting during work hours! You want me to kill
you?” He put an end to our battle, and this guy didn’t
dare touch me again. In fact, he didn’t dare touch any of the
three Chinese workers.
</p>
<p>
I have another interesting story. An Italian waiter
always stuck out his finger while working. I asked, “How come
you act so feminine? How come your pinkie always points out?”</p>
<p>
He said, “It’s ‘cause I hurt myself.
The doctor said it’s stuck like this permanently.”
</p>
<p>
I thought, “Why is this foreigner so ignorant?
This is only a joint problem. I learned Chinese bone setting before,
when I learned martial arts. This joint problem could be fixed, and I
was confident that he could fully recover. I asked him whether he
was afraid of pain.
</p>
<p>
He said, “I don’t feel pain.”</p>
<p>
I said, “This time it’s going to hurt, but
if you can take it, I can fix this for you.”</p>
<p>
He said, “Don’t joke around. If you really
can fix it, I’ll call you Dr. Chiu.”</p>
<p>
I said, “Are you sure you’re not afraid of
pain?”</p>
<p>
He said, “No, I’m fine.”</p>
<p>
I put my best effort into it. I said, “Give me
your hands.” If you know how to fix joints and you are not
afraid of pain, it can be cured.</p>
<p>
Q: Is this Chinese bone setting?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I said, “Give me your hands. Give them to
me and don’t try to fight.”</p>
<p>
He relaxed and let me do it. I turned and
rubbed his pinkie several times and then I twisted it. He said, “Oh!
Dr. Chiu, Dr. Chiu!”</p>
<p>
After that, whenever he saw me, he called me Dr. Chiu.
What his doctor thought was incurable was actually easy to fix. Pull
it straight and apart, and put it back in its old position. I told
him to hold it whenever he was free until it was completely healed. I
helped people in small matters and caused them to respect me.
There’s no problems, and the person will remember you forever.
</p>
<p>
I have some other funny stories. We shouldn’t
let others discriminate against us. Some people always say, “People
always discriminate against me.” I say, “Don’t
discriminate against yourself, and then nobody will discriminate
against you. This is America.”
</p>
<p>
Once, I was in the subway train, and an old white man
was sitting next to me. I had always respected the elderly. But he
said, “You dirty Chink! Don’t sit next to me.”</p>
<p>
I said, “Who the hell do you think you are? You
dirty pig!” I slammed against him with my butt. He was too
shocked to move. I said, “Don’t try to discriminate
against anybody. Everyone is equal.”</p>
<p>
In America, I didn’t feel like I was a victim of
discrimination. I learned to fight back. If you say something in a
joking manner, I will do the same. If you can’t take it, that
is discrimination, and I’ll give you more trouble for it.
Hence, I gained a lot of respect from others, especially when someone
thought he was superior. There’s no such thing as that.
America is a democratic country, and I want the democratic ideal to
be fulfilled.</p>
<p>
Q: After working at Reuben, what else did you do?</p>
<p>
Chiu: My father needed someone to help him to establish
a restaurant in the suburbs. He asked me to come help him. My father
had worked in Japan for eight years, ever since I was 11 years old,
and I hadn’t had many chances to be with him. So I said I’d
do it because I wanted to be with my dad. I had earned $300 a week
at Reuben, and I only made $200 per month working for his boss. Even
with tips, it was only $1000 a month, but I still agreed to do it.
Because workers in Reuben were too
messy, and also because
the boss was Italian and thought he was better than everybody else,
the restaurant was eventually closed down by the health department…
It’s really too bad.</p>
<p>
Q: How long did you work at Reuben?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I worked there for about six months. I remember
that when they had open positions for waiters, I asked for the job,
but they didn’t give it to me. They gave the positions to
their own people. They hadn’t kept their promise. So when my
father asked me to work out of state with him, I went.
</p>
<p>
My father and I intended to open a restaurant in the
United States. He would monitor the kitchen and I the dining area. We
had bought a lot of decorations for the restaurant in Hong Kong. We
put them into fourteen wooden cartons and shipped them to the United
States. I knew the shipping company. They packed and shipped them
free of charge because I worked for Tak Sing Company, and they
treated me courteously. Picking the items up in the United States was
fairly easy. I had been an importer in Hong Kong, so why couldn’t
I do it in the United States? I asked around, cleared customs and
had the goods delivered to my home by a Chinatown moving company.
</p>
<p>
My father and I helped somebody open a
restaurant in Port Washington, starting from scratch. I taught them
management skills and how to set up menus. My father taught the
owner how to be a cook. I taught the boss’s son to be a
manager. After they finished learning, my father went to
Massachusetts and helped others open another restaurant. My father
earned a monthly salary of $800 in Port Washington and also $800 in
Massachusetts. I lowered my earning from $1500 in New York to $1000
over there. I was willing to earn less since I wanted to be with my
father, to strengthen our relationship and also to take care of him.
Later on, my father went to Boston alone because they only needed one
cook. I went back to New York and saw that Reuben Restaurant was
closed, but my colleagues said it would reopen soon. Fulton had
screamed at the sanitation department and he thought he was better
than anybody else. Unexpectedly, the inspector put a warrant [notice]
to close the
restaurant at once. They had to clear the
violations to reopen. I helped them reopen but the business dropped
drastically. After one week, my father asked me, “Why don’t
you work here? There’s a vacancy at the Peking Garden in
Lexington City, Massachusetts. I worked there as a waiter.</p>
<p>
I have another story. Once, I was almost mugged
while waiting for a long distance Continental bus from Washington
Heights to Boston. I tried to get away from him, but he tried to get
close, and so I got in a fighting posture. Luckily, the bus arrived,
and I jumped on board and escaped.</p>
<p>
I was robbed twice. The first time was in 1971 when I
was a waiter trainee at Zhi Mei Lou Restaurant. I was waiting for the
restaurant to open early in the morning. Three big black guys tried
to grab me around my neck and pull me to the staircase. I was small
but very nimble. I blocked them with my hands and escaped. I made a
gesture indicating I was ready to fight. Suddenly, they said, “Oh,
we were just playing around.” I was really surprised, but it
turned out there was a policeman in front of us. I immediately told
the policeman, “These people want to rob me.” The police
said, “They haven’t done anything yet.” I was angry
and yelled, “Robbery! Robbery!” But no one cared. I was
mad. Why didn’t Chinese people help other Chinese? Why didn’t
we unite together? Why do we let others bully us? The three black
guys glared at me the whole time, but it didn’t matter. When
Zhi Mei Lou restaurant opened, I went in to work. I did not see them
again.</p>
<p>
Oftentimes, when Chinese were robbed, no one offered
any help, because they thought they had no status. In the old Chinese
community, no one would care for you. There was a lot of garbage and
it was filthy. Some people would even say the Chinese liked to look
slovenly in order to get welfare. If that was true, Chinatown would
be so prosperous and have such a huge increase in people during these
intervening years. After the 9/11 tragedy, it was much worse for a
while, but compared to 32 years ago, Chinese people have become
stronger and self-sufficient. The Confucius Plaza, Chatham Square,
Chatham Green, CITIC Ka Wah Bank and Wing Ming Building [at 2 Mott
Street] are all good examples. We Chinese built them ourselves.
Also, we have Heng Tung Building on Henry Street. So if we continue
this way, Chinatown will once again be prosperous. Yes, 9/11 has
victimised Chinatown. If the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent
Association
[CCBA], the Fujian Association and the Hakka
Association could come together and promote Chinatown, then Chinatown
can be revitalised.</p>
<p>
Q: How was Chinatown back then?</p>
<p>
Chiu: 32 years ago, Chinatown was rotten and not as
booming as it is now. Chinatown has developed from a bad place to
become a satellite town. If you don’t believe me, you can walk
around Mott Street, Broadway, East Broadway and Grand Street. Look at
the grocery, fish, meat and gift stores. Yes, the aftermath of 9/11
was a blow to Chinatown. The state of Chinatown before 9/11 was two
or three fold more prosperous than what it is now. Of course, for
Chinatown to keep growing, to get results, we need investments from
the Federal, State and City government and to work together as a
team. We also need continuous assistance from Lower Manhattan
Development Corporation (LMDC), I Love New York, Empire State, and so
on. It’s not enough to have people work hard or to make
financial investments. I believe in the Chinese proverb “the
wool comes from the lamb”- we have to pay for our own expenses.
We are not trying to take a lot from the welfare [system]. We only
need to give out more. With the Chinese spirit, we strive to become
stronger. We sustain ourselves. We work together as a team. These
factors will raise up the current status of Chinese people.
</p>
<p>
I also notice that the officials have stopped being
indifferent towards Chinatown and now show concern for the Chinese
community. We have to thank the new immigrants who have made us a
larger constituency. If we weren’t a large constituency, we
wouldn’t attract so much attention now from politicians. I hope
both new and former immigrants will cooperate and improve the
community, and make this community more prosperous. The government
should also help our community.
</p>
<p>
(Side 2 of tape)</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chiu, I understand that you do a lot of
business. How did 9/11 affect your business?
</p>
<p>
Chiu: I have been in the United States for 32 years. I
worked in Chinatown for 20 years. Why was I away from Chinatown for
10 years and not develop any business in Chinatown? It’s
because Chinatown was too rotten and sparsely populated, with people
being bullied. Nobody cared when you were mugged. I thought it was
a cruel place and I didn’t like coming there.
</p>
<p>
I went with my father to Massachusetts. It also had a
Chinatown but was not as busy as in New York, with few Chinese
restaurants. Two years after we came to the United States, we cleared
all my father’s debts and borrowed money again to plan for our
future. With our friends as references, the same Uncle Zheng who
rented us an apartment helped us to open a take-out restaurant in
Setauket. My father was in charge of the kitchen. I took care of the
front and counter. I guess it was fate. The Chinese restaurant was in
the suburbs and was not popular. We had to educate the residents
about Chinese food. Thank God I know English. I had to introduce and
promote Chinese food [to the people there].
</p>
<p>
Just when we started, my father died of heart attack.
He had been in America for less than three years. The heavy burden of
running the restaurant fell on my shoulders. I had to take care of
both the kitchen and the front. In the beginning, I could not cook.
Back when I had been in Hong Kong, I had done some fundraising events
and cooked a few dishes for Caritas Youth Centre in Hong Kong with my
parents giving me instructions. So the dishes that my parents taught
me I could cook fairly well. I had only been with my father here for
a short amount of time. I had not completely mastered cook. Besides
a few of my dad’s good friends, I didn’t know anybody in
the United States. I had to do everything by myself. I struggled on
my own. I had to sustain myself. For 30 years in the United States,
my father had wanted me to receive a United States education and work
hard for a brighter future. He also had hoped that I could make a
better life in America than we had in Hong Kong. Following these two
principles, we had refused to take a single penny of welfare from the
government, even when we were struggling. The government had once
offered us help. We declined it. We did not want help.
Instead, we strived hard - as my father once said, “If we grow
the food ourselves, it tastes sweeter.” I have stuck to his
principle all the time.
</p>
<p>
My mother was distraught at my father’s early
death. She had to watch over us, and she couldn’t work. My
mother had married him at an early age, and accompanied him to
Shanghai. Two years later, she gave birth to me in Hong Kong. When I
was eight or nine, my father went to Japan and worked there for eight
years. During all these years, my mother met my father for only short
periods of time. While in the United States, my mother expected to
spend much more time with him. We thought we would be a happy
family. But tragedy struck us, and my father died young.
</p>
<p>
Although insurance has long been popular in the United
States, we never took out a policy. We, the Chinese, thought that it
was unlucky to mention death and didn’t want to hear anything
about it. We would rather insure ourselves by having more savings. I
didn’t even understand the concept of insurance until I was
running the restaurant. The agent of an insurance company was a
customer in my restaurant. He asked, “How come we don’t
see the fat guy (he didn’t know that was my father) cooking any
more?” I told him about the tragedy. I said he was my father,
and he had just passed away. He said, “Oh, I’m so sorry.
Oh, did he have any life insurance?” I said no. He didn’t
believe in it. He asked, “Why not?” I said in Hong Kong,
people weren’t interested in that. We talked about the concept
of insurance. He said one thing, which hit me like a blow. He said,
“If your father had had insurance, he would have been able to
realize his dream, and you could now do whatever you want.”
What he said was like salt in my wounds. I asked, “But who
knows if you will really provide compensation?” He spoke very
practically, “You don’t have to believe me. You can check
it out and analyze it on your own.” I thought that was fair and
I listened for three months before applying for a license.
</p>
<p>
There were 30 students. It seemed like I was the only
one who raised questions. I asked tricky questions on all sorts of
areas. Each time, I would say, “Maybe I’m not smart, but
I really do not understand. Please explain it to me.” The
trainer said, “You’re not stupid. In fact, you
are the smartest one. The other students think they understand. In
fact, they pretend that they understand but actually don’t.”
Then, out of the 30 students, only three passed the licensing tests,
including me. The trainer said, “Did I teach you something?”
I said, “You are right.” The others failed. Of those
three who passed the tests, I was the only one who has been working
in the field for the last 30 years. Life is so unpredictable.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
I forgot what your original question was—?
</p>
<p>
Q: I was asking you how Chinatown has changed?</p>
<p>
Chiu: It changed in that there used to be many drunks on
Bowery and now there’s none. Building prices have soared from
several thousand dollars to a few million dollars. They’ve
gone from having a few American banks to many Chinese-operated banks
and banks with foreign capital. It’s an unusual thing in the US
for there to be so many banks in such a small area. So you can’t
say that Chinatown hasn’t changed.
</p>
<p>
The future of Chinatown is bright, but we need to work
together with federal, state and city governments to rebuild
Chinatown and make things better. We discovered that the government
really wanted to help. I hope that the businesses in Chinatown and
those who want to help Chinatown can all work together to present
Chinatown on the Internet in the best possible way. We can let future
generations see our incredible history, our moments of struggle,
conflict and hard work; how we do business with foreigners and help
them appreciate our culture and show a good example to them.
</p>
<p>
Q: Were you one of the earliest insurance agents in
Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chiu: You can say so. My father passed away in 1974. I
formally signed a contract with New York Life on April 28th, 1975. I
planned to work for 20 years, and then I could retire. Actually I
couldn’t retire. After 20 years, when I was named a Senior
NYLIC
Agent, and even after I was named a Post-Senior NYLIC
Agent, I still could not abandon my clients. I have to work until I
die.
</p>
<p>
Q: How does 9/11 affect your insurance business?</p>
<p>
Chiu: 9/11 has a direct impact on my insurance
business. Besides New York Life insurance, my company approved me to
run commercial insurance, house insurance businesses and also
property and casualty, homeowner, liability and bonds. Besides New
York Life, I run investment, mutual fund, IRA, casualty, car,
homeowner, clothing store, factory, garment factory, worker
compensation, disability, bonds. You name it, I do it. Twenty years
ago, I rented a place in Wing Ming building. Ten years later, I
rented an office at 11 Doyers Street. Now I have this place.
</p>
<p>
Why did I skip some years in the middle? That’s
because I operated a restaurant business out-of-state in Setauket,
near Stony Brook.
</p>
<p>
Why did I join the insurance business? Because my
father died within three years after arriving in the United States
and he did not have one penny of insurance. Alfred Lapitino, the
manager [of New York Life] told me, “Do you know there are many
Chinese families who are just like yours? They need your help. You
need to tell them the advantages of insurance.” From then until
today, I’ve been serving people with the intention of bringing
good news and benefits to Chinese people. We need more than just
democracy, we also need what I call “protection.” This
protection gives you dignity that others cannot destroy. In a family,
even if one or two breadwinners pass away, someone will still bring
in money for the family. This is New York Life insurance. It would be
best if every family had insurance. If nothing happens, that’s
great. The savings could then be used in retirement. A lot of our
clients withdraw more from our insurance savings than they get from
Social Security. Their Social Security benefits are only a few
hundred dollars but the 30 years of insurance premiums that they’ve
saved becomes a retirement fund. If people follow my advice, they
can enjoy an affluent retirement lifestyle.
</p>
<p>
Q: How does 9/11 affect the insurance business?</p>
<p>
Chiu: 9/11 hit the insurance industry hard, especially
property and casualty insurance. The money that was paid out due to
the collapse of the buildings has to be recouped by drastically
increasing the premiums. A lot of businesses cannot afford these
rising insurance costs. They say, “I cannot even afford to pay
for basic food. How can I afford to buy insurance? I would rather go
without insurance and save some. If something happens, I’ll
just close down my business.” It’s hard to do business
now because the premium is too high and customers would rather
operate without insurance.
</p>
<p>
Q: How are insurance premiums different from those
before 9/11?
</p>
<p>
Chiu: It’s a lot more expensive. During the last
two to three years, the premiums are 40 to 50% more expensive. The
prices increased 10 to 20% each year, adding up to a change of about
40 to 50%. The premiums had to increase in order to recoup our
losses. But is our business completely gone? No, and in fact, we’ve
made up for it in some other areas. It’s become easier to do
life insurance, for example. People have clearly seen just how
unpredictable life can be. When 9/11 occurred, I had been going over
a bridge and I saw the buildings collapse. It was so sad. Tears kept
pouring down my face. What I had thought was impossible had actually
occurred.
</p>
<p>
Q: Where were you when 9/11 happened?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I was at the far end of the bridge and I wasn’t
allowed to cross. On that day, I had to take off early. Normally, I
wouldn’t have left so early. When I could not cross the
bridge, I called the 5<sup>th</sup> precinct in Chinatown in order to
ask if they needed any translators. For instance, a lot of Chinese do
not understand English. They might not understand what happened and
need advice to escape from the disaster. I called and called. All
the way until 6pm, no one answered the phone. Why? Everyone went out
to rescue people, so there was nobody to answer the phone. It was
like we were in a war where all communications were lost. It was
lucky that I didn’t go to Chinatown,
because you
weren’t allowed to go out for two to three days. It was two to
three weeks until I was allowed into Chinatown, and I had to bring
along documents to prove my identity.
</p>
<p>
Q: What do you think of the 9/11 incident?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I think having democracy is good but too much
democracy is a disaster. Why is that so? Why was it so easy for the
terrorists to commit this crime and use our own resources to hurt us?
It’s because the United States is too democratic which allows
the young, fresh graduates- I think most of the airline workers are
young people, who are carefree. They lead a leisurely life style with
good food, nice homes, good education and put pleasure before work.
When they work, they are not serious enough. Every employee should
be paid to work - not chatting, and not joking. These workers missed
the terrorists, let them hijack the planes for an hour and were
unable to stop them and let them hit the World Trade Center. This
whole situation shows us that the American government and the public
education system of the United States have to change. If they cannot
improve and become stronger like the Chinese and if they don’t
motivate themselves but instead are content with ease and comfort,
bad things will eventually happen. Don’t blame Bush, who might
have ignored the intelligence. Don’t blame Clinton for not
working diligently. We should learn from John.F. Kennedy: “Ask
not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your
country.” We should contribute our talent to improve Chinatown.
Although 9/11 was cruel, if everyone contributes, Chinatown will
prosper twice as much.
</p>
<p>
If you don’t agree with me, just go out and
look. Look at the new Chinese immigrants in East Broadway for
instance. Wasn’t there a depression here after 9/11? Not only
East Broadway, but also the other areas, we need customers from
outside. And so do the jewellery, gift and restaurant industries.
</p>
<p>
Let’s go back to the Columbus Park project. We
can find ways to build a six-,seven-, eight- story underground
parking lot and allocate space for several thousand parking spaces.
Customers can come and not worry about parking or
paying
for the parking fees. Chinatown will become a shopping paradise and
dining paradise. More customers would come to Chinatown and the place
would prosper.
</p>
<p>
The government has researched possible parking sites.
Columbus Park is one place they’re considering. I hope the
government will approve the Columbus Park project. I dare say that
this project would, without a doubt, solve all parking problems for
the federal, state and city agencies. We won’t have to worry
about that anymore, and it will cease being a controversial issue.
We have to do things with precision, without confusion or
misunderstandings. Actually, a lot of things have been done wrong.
I think one story of the Columbus parking lot could provide 300
parking spaces. A seven- to ten- story building, if it was entirely
for parking, would create 3,000 to 4,000 parking spaces, and this
would allow more people to come to Chinatown. Chinatown could
improve things, and business could increase. Parking fees could
become cheaper. Anyway, it’s just a single place so it would
be economical. We could keep a park on the surface. We’d only
have to build underground. We can build it with today’s
technology.</p>
<p>
Q: When will this project be implemented?</p>
<p>
Chiu: The project is still being researched. I am one
of the advisors of Lower Manhattan Development Corporation. We’ve
already held two meetings. An announcement will be made in April,
with our purpose being to develop Chinatown. I hope they will
approve the project this time. We’ll have to do a lot more
public relations work and lots of events. We have a whole bunch of
plans. In fact there is a meeting at 10 AM tomorrow to discuss these
issues.
</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chiu, how was your other business besides the
insurance? Could you discuss them with us?</p>
<p>
Chiu: It’s not just my business. Take the tourist
industry as an example. Almost all agents closed
</p>
<p>
after 9/11. A lot of them had worked
together, and had the help of wholesalers. Afterwards, they all
negatively influenced each other, and most closed because there was
no business at all. Tourist agencies cannot function scattered in
different places. Our family tourist business did not have any
business because nobody was willing to travel. Now it is better. We
continue to have some hotel reservations, car rentals and travelling
business. Domestic travel is still weak.
</p>
<p>
We don’t know if things will recover, especially
because airlines make direct sales and have a monopoly. They don’t
need a third party to be their agent. Travel agents will disappear.
Only a few will survive. There won’t be as many as before,
because they can’t make ends meet.
</p>
<p>
Q: So, where is Setauket Travel Agency?</p>
<p>
Chiu: In fact, now we have only one office for all our
businesses. We had tried to divide into branches. Now we have just
one, in order to minimize costs and survive. We’re not
accustomed to getting relief funds, and we feel that we’ll find
a way to get through this period. If we can’t succeed, we’ll
just close.
</p>
<p>
Q: How is 9/11 affecting your business?</p>
<p>
Chiu: 9/11 takes away a large proportion of our travel
business. We’ve only got our old, loyal customers, and there’s
not many of them. It’s a lot worse than it used to be.
</p>
<p>
Q: Are most of the travel packages domestic ones?</p>
<p>
Chiu: There is almost no more domestic business. Foreign
customers stay away because of SARS and anti-terrorism measures. Many
of them had a hard time getting a visa to the United States. On the
other hand, we get new business whenever new immigrants gain green
cards. They go back to Mainland China or Hong Kong and travel there.
If it wasn’t for that, we wouldn’t have any business at
all.
</p>
<p>
Q: You have been in the tourism business for
more than 30 years?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I’ve worked in the tourism business from
1971 to the present. After I came to the U.S., I was involved in the
business for a short while. And then I was in Long Island and worked
in a travel agency at Setauket. And then I bought the business. When
I moved the business to Chinatown, I kept the name Setauket Travel.
The Chinese name was called Liu Feng, named after my father’s
hometown. Both names refer to suburbs. Now the travel agency is
called Chinatown Travel because we moved it to Chinatown.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think the tourism industry in Chinatown has
reached its nadir?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Chinatown’s tourism industry in Chinatown
is in the midst of its deepest depression, and is struggling to
survive. Now it’s time to unite. If everyone works hard we can
make it and find some opportunities. Otherwise, it’s really
going to be tough.
</p>
<p>
Q: Besides that, what other businesses do you have?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Import and export. I was importing jelly fish
heads. After 9/11, we ended up overstocked and couldn’t sell
them. I suffered a huge loss. The goods stayed in the warehouse and
could not be sold. I had to discard them. It was really horrible.
When the customers do not pay, I won’t reorder the same
product. We won’t import that product anymore. So that
business is practically over.</p>
<p>
Q: Why was imported food especially affected?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Because after 9/11, the restaurant business
diminished and individuals had less income. When the economy is so
weak, who’s going to buy luxury items? Jellyfish are
expensive. They cost between seven and ten dollars a pack.
Second-rate jellyfish costs three dollars.
</p>
<p>
Q: How much did you lose?</p>
<p>
Chiu: We actually lost thousands and thousands of
dollars, a total loss. The storage and other expenses we already paid
for could not be refunded. The loss was huge.
</p>
<p>
Q: You have so many different businesses. Was 9/11 a
huge blow to you personally?</p>
<p>
Chiu: It was a heavy blow to everybody, and it was also
a heavy blow to me. Luckily, my insurance business survived. You can
say that was my last fallback.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chiu, you’re Fujianese. What is the
difference between the old and new Fuzhou immigrants here? Or what
are the differences between the way Fuzhou used to be and the way it
is now?
</p>
<p>
Chiu: There’s a huge difference between recent and
past Fuzhou immigrants. In 1971, you could distinguish between the
locals and the ones that entered illegally on ships. Ninety-five
percent of them would cover their heads. They were always staring
around with their heads lowered. I pitied them and didn’t want
them to be caught. I would pat their shoulders and talk to them. They
would be very scared and stare at me. I talked to them first in
Cantonese. If they did not know how to reply, then I would use the
little bit of Fujianese that I had learned as a kid. If they were
Fujianese, I would tell them, “Don’t walk in such a timid
way. People will know you’re an illegal immigrant off the boat
and you will be arrested. Walk like me and nobody will catch you.”
I dare say, a lot of people will remember what I’ve told them.
Ha ha.</p>
<p>
Q: Why was illegal immigration so easy back then?</p>
<p>
Chiu: It was not so easy. At that time, sailors had
boarding passes to come on shore, but they didn’t go back. This
was called “jumping ship.” They had no other way. Most
of them just “jumped ship.” They worked on the
ship as seamen, as sailors, as crew, as cooks or helpers, or as
deliverymen. They escaped when they came to the United States and
didn’t go back to the ships. “Jumping ship” doesn’t
necessarily mean that they literally jumped from the ship into the
sea and then swam ashore.
</p>
<p>
Like the overseas students who liked staying in the
United States and looked for a sponsor, and then never returned. Or
some people came by tourist or business visas and decided they wanted
to stay. These are all just ways to change your position. If you’re
rich, you can apply for a tourist visa or do business here and end up
getting permanent residency. All the different methods are fine.
There’s nothing wrong with them. People who weren’t as
privileged used other methods which fit them.
</p>
<p>
“Do I oppose anyone who came to the United
States illegally?” In fact, no, I think Americans and their
ancestors came to the United States illegally and invaded the
country. That created America. American-born citizens should not be
anti-immigrant and should not sanction illegal immigrants. If they
do, that’s like a slap in their own face, unless they are
Native Americans. No one should oppose immigrants, or they themselves
should not be here.
</p>
<p>
But we should have a way to make immigrants follow the
right path to immigrate, because a small number of immigrants
committed crimes in the United States and endangered both the Chinese
community and public safety. We also see some Chinese being
oppressed, bullied, assassinated and murdered. If you can unite and
help each other mutually, we will have more power. Why? If we are
plentiful in number, we will have a lot of votes, and then elected
officials will do more for us. If we work against each other, the
politicians will manipulate us. We need officials to work for us and
be our public servants. They have to represent us and work for us.
Otherwise, we’re completely useless.
</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chiu, after all these years, you must have been
back to Fuzhou a few times. What was your impression?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I have gone back and taken a look at Fuzhou. In
1980, 10 years after I immigrated, I went back to Fuzhou via Hong
Kong. My mother had lived a hard life with my
father. She
followed him from Fuzhou to Shanghai, then to Hong Kong, and finally
to the United States. She didn’t return to Fuzhou during all
this time, until 1977. I did not have enough money to take her home
to see her parents. I took out a loan from the bank in order to
fulfil her wish. Then my mother wanted to apply for her parents to
come to the United States. In 1980, I went back to Fuzhou and applied
for visas for them in Guangzhou. They came to the United States via
Hong Kong. My maternal grandfather asked my mother, “If I die,
what will you do with me?” My mother said, “If you like,
I will bury you here with my late husband.” My grandfather
said, “No, it’s too quiet here. I have to return home.”
My mother said, “You don’t have to be in a hurry to go
back. Stay here. If you pass away, I will send your body home.”
My grandfather said, “What if you don’t send me home?
What will happen to me? It’s livelier back there.” He
insisted on returning to China. He said it was nice we settled down
in the United States. He was an old man, after all, over eighty years
old. If he stayed here, he could only look at the sky and the four
walls in the house. Although we lived in a [two-story] colonial
house with front and back yards and have a big family, he was still
not used to it. He went back to China with my grandmother. Two years
later, he passed away at the age of 90. I heard the news when I was
attending a New York Life educational conference in West Virginia. I
went back with my mother to take care of his funeral ceremony in
China and then we returned together. My grandmother came to the
United States several times, but she got bored and went back.
</p>
<p>
As far as what I saw when I returned to Fuzhou in 1980 –
I wept continuously from Hong Kong to Guangzhou. Why? China was so
miserable, dusty and without infrastructure. I thought, China is so
poor that it’s no wonder others look down on it. In Shanghai, I
was trapped in traffic jams all the time. It took two hours to drive
12 miles and I would have gotten there faster walking. Everything was
so backwards and miserable.</p>
<p>
It was even worse in Fuzhou. When the wind blew,
yellow sand scattered every where. The buildings were worn out.
There was nothing there. China was really miserable. That was in
1980.</p>
<p>
When I returned again in 1982, I saw some changes
taking place. I was there in 1984 for my grandfather’s funeral.
In 1983, representing this community, I raised
funds for a
dragon boat contest there to promote athletics. Each time we led a
tour from the United States to Fuzhou, I saw changes. And in
September 2003, last year, there were highways and skyscrapers
everywhere, the streets were orderly, and the buildings were so tall
you couldn’t see their tops. In 1980, there were so many
bicycles that you could not even cross the street. Now, we have
skywalks built across the second floors of the buildings. We don’t
have to cross the streets on the ground floor. We can follow their
example and cross the roads on the second floors of buildings in
Chinatown or combine skywalks with escalators for the elderly. Let
the cars have the road. We could also have businesses on the second
floor. I think it would be a nice thing and a huge plan for
development, and in the future, it could be expanded when there is
more investment.</p>
<p>
We need this kind of construction in order to develop
our Chinatown.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think Fuzhou became prosperous as a result of
immigrants returning to their homeland?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Not just recent immigrants, but also past
immigrants who returned to invest in properties and in business. And
it wasn’t just in Fuzhou City, but also in suburban areas such
as Changle. They completely remade these places. There was more
construction work in the suburban areas than in the cities. The roads
and highways are so advanced that from Fuzhou to Xiamen, it takes
only one hour, while it took eight hours in the past. Transportation
is convenient. There are lots of new buildings, but not so many
people living in them. Thus, the price of the buildings is not so
high. The price will go up only when demand is greater than supply.
Currently, there is more supply than demand.
</p>
<p>
When I organized a tour for [U.S.] policemen to visit
China, they said, “Now I understand why the new immigrants will
risk their lives to come to the United States, willing to send home
money home and repay a huge debt. For if they work hard for a few
years in the United States, they could return to their homeland and
build three- or four- story buildings. They don’t use red
bricks, rather they use
beautiful white tiles, and build
fences. The homes are very classy, like those of the rich.</p>
<p>
Q: What other public service positions do you hold
within the community?</p>
<p>
Chiu: While I was working, I never thought of returning.
One major task I did was to help out with burials. When Golden
Venture crashed, 10 persons drowned. On behalf of our American Fujian
Association of Commerce and Industry Inc., we claimed the bodies,
buried them and located their families. Four of them were very lucky
in that we could identify them, notify their families and have their
bodies returned. The other six were not so lucky. We had to bury
them. Mrs. Amy Chan of Ng & Chun Fook Funeral Services and Mrs.
Ying Kam, Yu Tang donated $10,000. We donated our manpower. Ng &
Chun Fook paid for the rest. Everyone got involved in this charity
work in a different way. We are still searching for the families of
the deceased. One of them we may be able to locate. Ten years later,
a Chinese reporter asked me to make an appeal one more time in the
newspapers. A Chinese family had been looking for their son who had
been missing for 10 years. But there was only one drop of blood [on
the cotton gauze] and it may not be enough to identify the DNA. We
need about one square inch of blood to identify the DNA. If the
person identified is their son, we will have one more body to return
to their family.
</p>
<p>
Q: Were most of the Golden Venture passengers Fujianese?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Most were Fujianese, and there were also many from
Wenzhou City. The second family who claimed a body was from Wenzhou,
Zhejiang province. When they came forward to claim the body, the
immigration officer ordered the family member to be arrested. It was
only after we called this inhumane treatment that they released the
family. America is a democratic country. They felt bad when we said
they were undemocratic. Then they released the names of 10 who
drowned and let people claim them. Every family had to claim the body
with my signatures and approval, because I was the person who claimed
their bodies.</p>
<p>
Q: What is the moral of this tragedy for immigrants?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Frankly speaking, it tells immigrants that America
is no paradise. Whenever I returned and explained that, they did not
believe me, as if I was lying. I told them that America is a “slave
training camp”. No one should work over 13 hours but I worked
at least 13 hours every day during my 32 years in the United States.
So I told them the Untied States is a “slave training camp”.
They argued, “But why are you still there?” I said I had
no choice. They would not believe me.
</p>
<p>
They said the United States was a paradise. I said the
United States was a paradise as well as a hell. If you cannot earn
enough money, you are in hell. If you earn enough money, anywhere
would be a paradise. That’s true not only in the United States
but also in China. I told them, you’re already very fortunate
and don’t even know it. I said, in China, you get food even if
you don’t work. In the United States, if you don’t work
you don’t eat. No one believed in me back then. Upon their
arrival here, they realized I was telling the truth. They told me, “I
should have listened to your advice. I didn’t listen and now
I’m in trouble.”</p>
<p>
Q: When the Golden Venture tragedy happened, did it act
as a warning in China and Fuzhou and cause less people to come to
America?
</p>
<p>
Chiu: I thought they did a good job of keeping the story
a secret. Not a lot of people knew about the Golden Venture. Chinese
people living outside of China knew more about it. Some overseas
Chinese knew about it from foreign television. They knew from news
report that I helped in burials and held a Buddhist funeral ceremony
at the shore.</p>
<p>
The biggest project we worked for in the community was
to reopen Grand Street Station. We finally succeeded in demanding a
subway line between Grand St. Station and DeKalb Avenue- saving our
passengers time walking and transferring. When they repaired the
Manhattan Bridge, they originally planned to complete it in
eight years. Instead, it only took two years and Grand Street Station
had already reopened. That’s how the community is rewarded if
we work at it.
</p>
<p>
I was also involved in the Chinatown cleaning campaign
but it wasn’t that successful. I think Chinatown should have
our own private garbage trucks. Whenever the trash cans get full,
they can pick it up. It’s worth it to pay more and get better
service. If Chinatown was cleaner, more tourists would be willing to
shop here. After all, everything is cheap in Chinatown.
</p>
<p>
As far as the roads go, Chinatown has lots of
potholes. East Broadway is already improved. I made a complaint last
month about a fund that was already approved to redo the road surface
at the intersection of Doyer Street and East Broadway since they had
claimed that they didn’t have any funds. I said, “That’s
no excuse. I know the federal funds have already arrived. I can
accept other excuses but not this.” After one week, they
finally started working on the road. But they didn’t dig the
usual seven inches. They only replaced two or three inches. It was
only surface work. They replied that different methods would be used
for complete renovation. I hope this project works, because there are
two spots in East Broadway that always sink even after repeated
fillings. It would benefit Chinatown if the problem is fixed.
</p>
<p>
Besides these projects, I personally think there are
not enough parking spaces in Chinatown. Everyday, we hear complaints,
that government employees have taken away our parking spaces. Why
can’t we build an underground parking lot with three to four
stories and let them park their cars and not occupy surface streets.
Or we could build a few skywalks with escalators for the elderly and
allow pedestrians to move around without walking. They wouldn’t
block traffic, and elderly pedestrians wouldn’t get hit by
cars. Wouldn’t this project make Chinatown more prosperous?</p>
<p>
Q: When will these plans be implemented?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I think LMDC has accomplished 70% of what I would
desire. I think these things are very important and necessary.
Chinatown is vastly different from what it was 30 years ago, even
though there was a drastic drop-off after 9/11. If Chinatown is going
to improve, the parking problem must be solved. If we do not even
have enough
space to live, how can we have enough spaces
for cars? If one has to pay 20 to 30 dollars for parking while having
dinner in Chinatown, people will choose to eat close to where they
live and save money.
</p>
<p>
I also have hopes for the 2<sup>nd</sup> Avenue subway
station project. I hope it will start soon and that will make
Chinatown prosper. For 32 years, Chinatown did not have her own
subway station. It would be a big convenience if we had a subway spot
at the intersections near Mott Street and East Broadway and Park Row.
Just dig a hole in East Broadway or Park Row and that will be the
underground subway station. The project should start as soon as
possible. It will help revitalize Chinatown.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chiu, you mentioned that the relationship
between police and locals was not so good in the past. Has it
improved recently?
</p>
<p>
Chiu: The police-civilian relationship has changed
drastically in recently years. I went to the police plaza
headquarters and explained to them how Chinese people feel. Don’t
assume the Chinese are opposed to the police. I also suggested the
police should be courteous and have a better attitude towards Chinese
people. Through networking, I got to know some officers better and I
brought them on a trip to China. They realized that most Chinese
people are good-natured. Only a handful of bad ones need to be dealt
with. The police treat Chinese citizens a lot better.</p>
<p>
There was once a police action on East Broadway to
arrest illegal peddlers. When the police arrived, the peddlers fled.
After the police left, the peddlers set up their booths again. For a
long time, the police could not make any arrests. They were mad. A
Chinese policeman grabbed a child and threw him into a police van
like he was throwing out garbage. All the Chinese people were
stunned. They asked me to confront the policeman. The arrested boy
was frightened because he had no legal status and he also worried
that he could not survive upon release since the police might take
revenge on him. Both the arrested and the arrester were Chinese. This
was the first time that the Chinese policeman had done anything like
this. Someone said, “If we don’t teach him a lesson now,
he’ll be even worse in the future.” They
thought that policeman was as bad as colonial police. When I
confronted him for the first time, he was mad. But we could not blame
him, he had gotten fired up. I was angry too.</p>
<p>
<span lang="zh-CN">  </span> I
told him calmly, “I know you are very mad at this moment and
very agitated. But let me tell you one thing. If the child you threw
was my son, I would pull my gun out and shoot you. You are doing
something very stupid; you’re not behaving like a police
officer. If you don’t want to say you’re sorry and
apologize for this act, I’ll make your life very difficult. Do
you want all the reporters in front of the police station, and see
your name in the newspaper? You’ll lose your job.” He
said, “Fine, I apologize.” Then he closed the door and
apologised to the child and his family. They all greeted at me. I
wanted everything to be resolved peacefully. If he knows he was
wrong, and he corrects his ways, that’s all I want. I don’t
want to cause trouble for one person. If he lost his job and went on
welfare, how would we benefit? We want a good community. We have to
work together. Everybody will make some mistakes, right?”</p>
<p>
Q: When was that?</p>
<p>
Chiu: It happened a few years ago. Now we have community
police officers and youth explorers. When youngsters see something
happen, they immediately tell the police so that they can halt the
crime and make an arrest. We have community days and sponsor the
local precinct during community activities on important days like
Christmas. We sent in gifts and gave out fingerprint kits, car
detailing products and other things. These are events that improve
the relationship between police and residents.</p>
<p>
Q: How is the 5<sup>th</sup> precinct police station in
Chinatown different from what it used to be? Is it still at the same
location?</p>
<p>
Chiu: The location is the same as 30 years ago. I have
known some captains and lieutenants. They are nice people. Some of
them are really nice to the Chinese, especially Ronald Lekos. He is
Greek and took good care of the Chinese. There is also a Thomas Chen.
In the future, we might have Michael Lau. I call him Captain Lau. He
is a community officer at the Police Plaza.
</p>
<p>
Q: Would you say that you are very satisfied with the
current police-civilian relationship?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Speaking frankly, they could be even better, of
course, with more funding and manpower.
</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chiu, you have children here. What hopes do you
have for them?</p>
<p>
Chiu: Frankly, Chinese people always say. “Children
are insurance for old age.” But we can’t have that same
expectation now. We say that child-rearing is educating elites now. I
hope they gain academic knowledge while learning Chinese customs from
their home. Then they can accomplish even more than us. We can’t
control the result, because American education over-emphasizes
liberty and democracy. And they overdo it, so that you can never
completely… My elder son was a student in Binghamton
University. He joined the National Guard Reserves and is learning to
repair Black Hawk helicopters to prepare for a position as a crew
chief. He also learned how to use machineguns. Last year, he taught
the new soldiers to shoot. It is nice if he will contribute to our
country. My hope is that he studies even better in the future.
</p>
<p>
My second son is a fresh man at Stony Brook University
and he is a good student. He wants to be a scientist, not a
money-maker. I hope he can be a distinguished scientist. It would
also be good if he contributes to his family and himself.
</p>
<p>
Q: You have been living in the United States for such a
long time. Now that 9/11 has happened, what do you think of the
United States? Do you still think that United States is a good
country?</p>
<p>
Chiu: The United States is an excellent country. We
should have democracy but not too extreme. If kids are allowed to
have too much democracy or misuse democracy, a lot of things will
happen, including cults, groups running money scams in the name of
democracy and so on. We should not just sit here and do nothing. We
should point out the risk.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have anything to add?</p>
<p>
Chiu: I was going to ask you the same question.
Sometimes I have so much to say that I could talk endlessly. I could
talk for three days non-stop.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have any hopes for Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chiu: We have to live together and cooperate. We have to
make Chinatown prosper by keeping peace and not arguing. We should
not try to gain credit for what others do. Instead, we should work
as a team and Chinatown will become better. We hope we can double our
prosperity within three or five years and not wait another 30 years.
If we are willing to cooperate and make Chinatown prosper, I believe
we can do it and we will succeed.
</p>
<p>
Q: Thank you for your interview. Today is March 30th,
2004. This is the Chinatown Oral History Project of the Museum of
Chinese in the Americas. The interviewee is Mr. William Chiu. The
interviewer is me, I-ching Ng.
</p>
<p>
Chiu: Thank you.</p>
<p>
(End of tape)</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:趙先生,可以講述一下你未移民前在香港的生活嗎?</p>
<p>趙:其實我在香港的時間比我在美國的時間更短,只有19年,懂事之後在六歲左右,我依稀記得那是由九龍塘搬去中環,到德忌笠街住,在二樓,即是什麼酒吧樓上,因為我剛回去看過,所以知道。那時很頑皮,爸爸媽媽做到會的生意,我們頑皮起來有很多地方走,因為那時德忌笠街沒有車,我們時時玩兵捉賊。</p>
<p>問:那時是什麼時候?</p>
<p>趙:當時是六歲,1958年左右,那時搬到中環,在德忌笠街住兩年,因為業主要趕走,非走不可,搬到對面街和安里,二年後遷居到榮華里,都是在隔離,也是在蘭桂坊,住到1963年左右,爸爸因為有病,連續兩次腦溢血後,媽媽就不容許他做這份工,將生意賣給自己夥記及朋友,後來爸爸接受到日本的邀請,到留園當廚師,教日本人煮菜,輕鬆很多,一天只工作8個小時,不用時時工作。</p>
<p>問:你們做到會生意有多忙?</p>
<p> 趙:我們記得最忙的時候,有22個夥記,四至五個大師傅,一晚去幾個地方。</p>
<p>問:那時候做到會生意是否很普遍?</p>
<p>趙:正式來說不是很多這方面的人才,有些是自己做酒樓或打工,江浙人士很喜歡在家請客,叫大師傅到他們的家煮一餐,第一溫馨一點,第二是自己人或一起做生意的人,在家傾偈(談話)很方便。通常叫到會的老板,家中地方相當大,有些一層樓,有些一座樓,如九龍塘、跑馬地、半山區等。那時是全盛時期,我爸爸每天都很忙,由朝忙到晚。</p>
<p>問:趙先生你為什麼會移民來美國?</p>
<p>趙:講起來有段古,我媽媽後來憶述給我們,我爸爸在1950年由上海到香港,媽媽在1951年到香港,我1952年在香港出生,1948年爸爸到福州娶我媽媽回來,到上海,我有個家姐1949年在上海出生,從上海到香港,爸爸在上海未懂得做生意,聽人講賣毛巾會賺錢,因此把所有節約的金錢去購買毛巾,到了香港沒有人買,虧蝕很多。當時上海很多人到香港做生意,其中有一個上海老闆,徐家在上海做律師問:「不如到我家做廚師。」,我爸就在他那裡打工,有很多上海煮食是徐家教煮的,很棒。他家中的徐老太時時教爸爸煮上海菜,徐老太到上海館吃飯時問廚師如何煮,<br>
回來就教我爸爸如何煮,所以我爸爸煮上海菜很不錯。後來徐老先生移民來美國時,捨不得我爸爸,他問:「大師傅有什麼要求?想不想到美國?」我爸爸回答說「想。」因為爸爸曾在天主教會登記成為難民移民,但一直沒有消息。徐老先生說:「我到美國,想辦法申請你來。」其後一直沒有消息。到我十來歲時,也沒有消息,都以為沒有機會了。雖然我爸爸以前也提及:「如果徐老先生在,申請我們過去,你讀書就不用這麼多錢,我們就不用這樣辛苦了。要留學就到台灣吧!」</p>
<p> 可能是命運安排,聽說徐老先生去世前有個遺願,承諾趙大師傅,但未有做到。徐老先生有個女兒,是李聯旅行社的東主──李太,她和李先生很熱心,到處找我爸爸找不到,有一次帶團到日本,我爸爸在留園當廚師,在留園飯店遇到爸爸,李先生問:「趙大師傅,你要不要來美國?」我爸爸說:「想。」回美後,李生李太找到致美樓的葉先生,由致美樓申請我們來美國,當時P6(第六優先)可以申請來美移民。三個月不到,爸爸在日本,移民美國文件批出來了,爸爸返回香港申請家屬,一家九個人,當時我姐姐在丹麥,不包括姐姐,大概八月,當時有六個月的時間簽證。你知道我們當時並不知道美國是怎麼樣的。為什麼喜歡到美國?講起來有段古。</p>
<p> 你知道香港因為鴉片戰爭,割讓給英國,以前不懂,只曉得玩及睡,及被爸爸媽媽逼著讀書。以前全盛期,我在高主教讀書時,有人接送我上學及返家,我現在還記得。</p>
<p> 讀中學時,歷史書講到反清,講到中華民國等現代史的時候,<br>
就截著歷史不教了。那時在中四,對近代史很模糊,為什麼當時有美國政府保護?當時台灣是美國政府承認,有美國保護。又什麼叫支那? 有人叫蔣匪,有人叫毛賊,為什麼會這樣?讀書的作用是問能增進識宜,何恥之有?君子要聞下問,我就問老師:「什麼是蔣匪毛賊?」誰知大件事了,撞著的老師是跟隨蔣介石從軍的,老師轟轟烈烈走過來,叉著腰:「你要找死!」指著我的頭:「你指蔣總統做蔣匪,我殺了你的頭!」我回應,我不懂才問,我問才會知道。老師說:你還回嘴!」。我為這件事被記一個大過,無端端被記大過,從此我就去深入研究,既然你不與我說,既然你稱毛賊可以,為什麼不能稱蔣匪呢?於是我剛開始政治知識,因為無端被記大過,太慘痛了。由那天開始,這教國語及歷史的老師第一個給我難堪,諸多刁難,故此我的國文及歷史背得很熟,到後來不需學現代史時,我整個人輕鬆下來,因為不需日日去溫習。</p>
<p> 知道為什麼林則徐在虎門銷毀鴉片?為什麼中國因為反對鴉片毒品而被英國攻打虎門?為什麼要割讓香港?後來因為清約而割讓香港,很憎日本人及英國人,英國人販毒,害我們中國人。那時也是很模糊,因為中國和台灣土地一大片,為什麼分左右派?覺得很無理,和很不合理,同時對英國政府有偏見:如果不是英國人殘害中國人,中國就不會這麼容易被打敗!中國人不會被日本人叫東亞病夫! 所以我的尚武精神就開始了。</p>
<p> 雖然以前有玩武術,師傅以前在德忌笠街造生意,我不是跟你說過我少年時住的地方嗎?我少時很頑皮,在石樓梯邊游玩,那裡有水有青苔,我扮賊,別人抓我時,我腳踏在青苔上,滑到,卜一聲,跌破頭,這裡有一度疤痕,那時是8歲左右,我師傅就在對面,為我止血,醫好我。我後來于1964年遷居到嘉咸街,我師傅亦遷居到我家對面,可算有緣,我便拜師,李伯靈(李北)蔡李佛拳第三傳人是我的蔡李佛功夫師傅。他并且教我鐵打醫術,使我在美受益不淺。</p>
<p>問:你是否因為不喜歡英國政府,使你轉而喜歡美國政府?</p>
<p>趙:是,因為英國政府的殖民統治,如此取得香港,香港人受到壓制,尤其是到政府部門,政府人員狐假虎威,兇惡,我想這是什麼世界。</p>
<p> 再者,讀書時知道美國很大,但不知道這麼大,我當時只想到台灣讀書,因為美國讀書太貴,我想到台灣,但那時除國文及歷史外,沒有一科是中文,對中文完全不懂。我因為想做醫生,當時在台大,當時承認台灣是中國,有些科目是用中文考生物及化學,英文還可以,回到中文,我連問什麼也一點看不懂,故此考不到台大。</p>
<p> 我想既然中文不行,不能造醫生,我第二個愿望是要做商人,我要實踐,由低做起,我的中學畢業會考不合格,只有三至四科,不足五科。當時由我契媽(樊英)的老闆 Mr Gibson是美國人,原居地住在芝加哥,介紹我給他的生意合夥人顧文忠先生德信行的老闆,她一介紹,顧老闆就說:「好呀,你來吧!」,在德信行,由最低層做起,那間是德信國際貿易有限公司,是出口美國和加拿大的貿易公司,專門做羊毛衫,外銷英國、美國、加拿大及澳洲四個地方。其中我契媽的的老闆 MR GIBSON亦是大主顧之一,所以亦是對我另眼相看,算是有機緣。他說:「你來,自己看檔案,什麼都可以看。」但那時其實是不容許的,為什麼呢? 朝早九時上班,我七時半就到寫字樓,逐個檔案去讀,沒有事就練打字,將一些文件重新打過,可能有些職員不滿,有三十多個職員,有些主任看見,不喜歡(like) 我的行為,問我:「你知不知道這是機密文件,你是不能看的。」我答道:「老闆叫我看,」主任就說:「既然老闆叫你看,那我們就不干涉,」</p>
<p> 很快六個月左右,我知道做生意的輪廓,老闆對我真的不錯,他連如何與人洽談生意的信件、如何取得樣板、如果取錢、如何收費、取得信用狀、如何寫約定信(confirmation)、將單賣給銀行等等,所以六個月後,我升職三級,但工資照常,因為除了打字,我還驗貨,做confirmation,什麼都做。</p>
<p> 別人做後生是做工,我卻出來做代表;別人排隊給人罵,我就去罵人。因為我不值政府官員的狐假虎威,排隊仍要罵,我就站出來說:「我要見你的主任先生,因為你們的態度有問題。」他們就怕了,<br>
有什麼要做的就先為我做,所以我做事比別人快,我做事要找主管,因為我是代表德信行來這裡做事。我外出時,別人拿一個袋子,我就要公司買個公文箱給我用,會計說:「你憑什麼買個公文箱?」我說:「我是代表德信行辦事,要有威信,沒有公文箱怎可以?」他當場語塞,要買給我。以前洗碗手會變粗,我要洗碗買潤膚霜,他說:「為什麼要買潤膚霜,沒有人學你這樣麻煩?」我說:「如果洗杯弄壞手,難道要公司賠?」可能因為是老闆的關係,他們不敢阻攔。</p>
<p> 我所要求做的事可以一天可以做很多,流滿汗,一天做八九樣事情,故此老闆時時讚我:「你做得很好」,賞我錢買東西吃,那時我才17,18歲。<br>
我在德信行做了一年就來了美國,晚上修讀會計,為什麼呢?我覺得有需要,如果不懂得會計,不會做事。所以我對著公司的會計,有時也會考起他們,因為他們不一定是專業會計,而我在香港已經開始讀了。</p>
<p>問:請講述一下知道要來美國那一刻,你的感覺怎麼樣?</p>
<p>趙:當我們知道要來美國,很高興。當時老闆做南美洲,北美洲生意,當時我就做非洲生意,因為我不想學到老闆的功夫,而搶他的飯碗(生意),所以我要另闢門徑。美洲的生意容易做,老闆的生意大量,利潤小,我們的生意是少量的,利潤大,正當我想向老闆提議新開發的時候,移民已經批准了,我要和老闆講再見。做到12月,<br>
老闆也很明白,他對我說,以前他也在美國做大兵,後來由美國到香港發展,留在香港。</p>
<p> 我來美國時的飛機票很貴,我要想到最平,因為我想做生意,四處去鑽,亦知道那裡去問,找到最平,當時就已經做旅行社,所以買機票特別平,李聯旅行社在香港做旅行社,我照樣建議給香港的李聯旅行社,李聯也照樣給我們做,為什麼呢?正式來說,我們的恩人是李太,或者是李太的爸爸徐老先生,如果不是他的一句話,我們仍然在香港,做人要飲水思源,我們一定要記得李太,記得徐家對我們的好處,幫助我們這麼大的忙。</p>
<p> 在英國管治下很壓抑,就算是英國公民也只能算是二等公民,而且是分級地(classified)告訴你,你去英國還要簽證,那是一派胡言,承認你是英國人士,不,只是承認你用英籍人士,你是英國子民(British Subject),不是英國人,他們的態度是歧視所有英籍子民,只有英國人才是英國人,我覺得沒有民主。其次我覺得英國是賊的國家,為什麼講這些?因為她是靠賣鴉片發達,為了利益侵略別人的國家,割別人的地,所以讀書時說,英國日不落國,以為很威風,後來看見英國人因為林則徐銷煙打中國人,另我憎恨英國。</p>
<p> 在香港的英國少年很喜歡欺負中國少年,他們走路招搖,朝向迎面而來的華人一肘子就撞過來,你要驚,要迴避,不單對我一個是這樣。我的反應剛剛相反,你撞來,你一肘打回來,我一肘子打回去,他們痛至不能出聲,我也順便說:「我好痛!好痛!」沒有一個人敢出聲。</p>
<p> 亦試過有一回有一個十多歲的英國孩子,我們中國人經過他面前,被他一拳打在肚皮上,如果我行過去就不同了,我知道他就快出手,因為他打人在先,我就先一拳格回來,再打回去,<br>
他痛極,也不敢出聲,很多這些情況,使我,產生物極必反的原素。</p>
<p> 1966年,法西斯暴動,打人,學校內人士分開左派右派,我觀念很模糊,有些人說:「我們要團結在一起,高唱東方紅,反抗英政府。」也看到香港政府懷柔政策,我們中國人被壓逼,更加不喜歡香港。我不要做殖民地人,如果我要做殖民地人,我寧可做美國的殖民地人。</p>
<p> 移民去美國時,我們個個都很興奮,買日本航空公司機票到美國,我爸爸在東京做了八年,很多日本朋友,日本人飛來香港,看望爸爸,我也學過日本文三個月,但沒有使用過。在東京機場已經覺得大,在美國第一眼到見到甘迺迪(JFK)機場,真的是目瞪口呆,世界之大,因為JFK氣勢驚人,一望無際。別人有時差(jetlag),我則三天不到就很精神。當時是1971年,第一次見下雪。</p>
<p> 我在致美樓學做侍應生,致美樓在現在的Subway Deli,在東百老匯口、包厘及宰也街(Doyer)旁邊,右手第二或第三間是Subway,x福商場及旁邊的Subway Deli是屬於致美樓餐館的舊址,就是這間餐廳申請爸爸來美國,可以講我們一家人算是最幸運的一個家庭。</p>
<p>問:其實當年申請去美國是否很難?</p>
<p>趙:如果沒有資格,是申請不到的,為什麼會有這麼多跳船,<br>
又留學生留下不離開? 就是美國的移民政策比較寬鬆,所以留下來。現在在美國的老僑領大部份是以前走船來美,或是留學生留在美國,沒有回去,很少正式移民到這裡。在這裡落地生根的人甚少,尤其是福建人這一邊,我還記得那時只有一間福建同鄉會,人丁很單薄,只有數百人。直至今日,在美東三州地區,保守估計,有50萬至60萬人。</p>
<p>問:從香港申請來美國,你提及你爸爸在教會申請難民,情況如何?</p>
<p>趙:申請難民,石沉大海,完全沒有消息,我們移民來的時候也要報告,否則我也不知道,因年紀很小。</p>
<p>問:申請難民是否很困難?</p>
<p>趙:正式來說,除非有技術,及有人申請來。否則連想都不要想。</p>
<p> 1971年的的唐人街和現在的有天淵之別,Mott Street當時旺的程度,也不及現在這裡旺,只有兩三條街,移民的1971年到致美樓學做企枱(待應生),也沒有工資,連來回兩程車票,都要自己出,那時地車剛剛漲價,一程要50美仙,現在是兩元了,我慣了早到,那是從香港來,在香港打工沒有遲到那回事,現在就麻煩了,4點多起床,6時到這裡。</p>
<p>問:你現在住在那裡?</p>
<p> 趙:現在住長島事多吉 (Setauket),(Stony Brook)附近,快者1小時1刻,但塞車要4小時半才到。</p>
<p>問:你那時在唐人街居住嗎?</p>
<p>趙:那時我住布朗士(Bronx),因為我要學做企枱,那是爸爸的一位同事早移民來,住在布朗士,替我們租了一個柏文。所以坐車一天一元,他們事先聲明:「你來這裡,我們不付你工資,你到來的早、午、晚餐可以一起吃,我教你如何收碗,如果學得好,我教你接單。」在致美樓我學了一個月,做了一星期後有位亞叔就跟我說:「亞弟,我不理人們怎樣,總之如果你做得好,幫得我手,我就給你一元,不用蝕車費。」所以我做了一個月,一共收了21元,是這位亞叔給的,他現在也在唐人街。做完一個月後,他們說,你算得上學會了,不用再來了。有一位蔣先生問:「你要不要做替工?我有三天替工,你要不要做?」我說:「好」。</p>
<p> 以前在唐人街待應生的態度很差,碗是擲過來的,砰砰嘭嘭,沒有茶他們不會添,我雖然做了一個月,我覺得不應該,我排碗排得快,收碗收得快,斟水斟得快,換水換得快,總之什麼也是Prefect,還有一個笑話,當時我是替工又是生手,搵不到錢,又要幫助,他們不會和你打共產(小費平分),只是叫你分到內堂裡面做,你搞掂,他們並將打鐵客(不給小費的客人)分給我。<br>
那位打鐵客人對我的態度很愕然便問:「為什麼你招呼這麼好,又有禮貌,會問候人,會添茶,會收碗。」我回答說:「因為你是這裡的客人,我是這裡的代表,是不是我應好好地招呼你?」他很愕然,「你不知道我不會給貼士?」我說:「這個不重要,你是客人我就要你滿意。你滿意就好了,你感覺舒服,就是我們的期望。」(As long as you enjoy yourself, this is what we are looking for.) 出奇地,結賬時他付20%的貼士(小費),其他夥計說:「亞弟,你和我們打共產,」世事就是這樣奇,如你是新人他們會恰(欺壓你),如果有用他們會拉攏你。</p>
<p> 後來我做了三日就離開,我相信如我要長做,他們也會讓我留下來。但是我選擇離開,因為我覺得第一,我仍要讀書,第二我覺得一天賺數十元很浪費。因為當時福州人很勤力,可以一日做三班,八小時一班,不睡覺,做到死將錢帶回鄉下用,工作量很驚人。我雖然不能做三班,但大概可以做兩班,但如做唐人工,不能做兩班。</p>
<p> 我起初想讀書,後來又不讀書,因為我走到學校,問讀書要讀多少學分,他們說要讀12個學分。我問一個學分多少錢,他答一個學分120元,我問一日要讀多少學分,他們說一日要讀三個學分,我說:「嘩!我那來這麼多錢讀書,」於是我叫弟妹讀中學,免費的,一年後,算是紐約居民,讀大學也便宜很多。爸爸當時工資只有600元,我對爸爸說,「我為你做工,先還債,等生活環境轉好才算。」我爸爸也答應了,只有他一人做工,維持家計很辛苦,工資只有600元,家庭一個月要300生活開銷,還要還債,欠李太很多錢,那些是很多人的機票錢。我要做兩份工的話,就不能在唐人街做企枱,否則我賺不夠錢。別人說那間那間打工好,我就去碰。</p>
<p> <br>
第一間找工叫羅賓餐廳(Reuben),以前是第一流餐廳,最著名芝士蛋糕 (cheese cake)和羅賓三文治(Reuben sandwiches)。我進去問工,他說:「對不起,我們沒有待應的空缺。」(Sorry, we don’t have any vacancy of a waiter.)我就說:有沒有收碗筷的 ?我也很在行。(How about bus boy? Bus boy, I will be very good on it too. )</p>
<p> 他說:你願意做收碗筷的,可以的,我們也需要收碗筷的 。(Are you willing to be a bus boy? That’s okay. You know we need bus boy too.)</p>
<p> 我說:可以,我就做收碗筷的,如果你有機會的時候,請升我做侍應生。(Okay, then I go and work as a bus boy. When you have a chance next time, you will promote me to be a waiter.) </p>
<p> 他說:可以(Okay.),其實他也不知道你的工作能力,但也敷衍著。他是西班牙裔的部長(captain)。</p>
<p> 不要說中國人有自尊(pride),外國人亦一樣,西班牙歸西班牙裔,黑人歸黑人、意大利人歸意大利,個個都會互相欺負。我覺得第一,我是新人,什麼都要讓人,如果他們太過份,要欺詐的時候要反抗。我曾經和波多黎各人(Puerto Rican)要交手了,為什麼呢?做 收碗筷的,每人一個站(station)的時候,他會搶你的東西拿去用,一句「借來一用」(Let me borrow it.)。</p>
<p> 我說:無問題,我們是朋友,團結工作,是不是?(No problem. We are friends. We will work together. We should cooperate as a team, right? ) </p>
<p> 但當你沒有的時候,他會說不要碰我們東西。(Don’t touch my stuff.)</p>
<p> 那也是可以的,我們不要吵架。(That’s okay too. We don’t want to fight. )但是下一次,你也不要借用我的東西,我學會你的一招。(Next time, don’t borrow my stuff too. I learnt fast.)</p>
<p> 到下次,你不讓他用,他說:「你說什麼?」(What are you talking about?)一拳就打在我的肚子上。</p>
<p> 我知道要讓人,不要打人,我說:「可以,但不要再打了。」(That’s okay. Don’t do it again.)他說:「打你又怎樣?」(So what?)<br>
我說:「我給你最後機會,不要再碰我。」(I give you a last chance. Don’t touch me again. ) 他又打一拳。三拳一出,我一個蔡李佛拳打回去,他整個人跌倒地上,他說:「對不起,趙先生。」(Ok, Mr. Chiu, I am sorry.)以後也不敢再欺負我了。</p>
<p> 那是不是犯賤嗎?中國人要忍讓,但不要太過客氣,三次夠了。</p>
<p>問:那時那餐廳是不是只有你一個中國人?</p>
<p>趙:當時有兩個中國人,不,是三個中國人,一個年紀較老,一個和我年紀差不多,我是最小,因為只有19歲,他們很怕事,別人欺負就算了,我不肯,我們要同樣的權利,我們要為華人爭光,有事要出聲,要抱不平。</p>
<p> 除了這個,另外還有一個認為我不夠工夫材能,要和我打,他照搶,我不給,他搶過來,我一搭手,任他怎樣捉我也捉不到,我並施以還擊,讓他動彈不得,他說:「出來,我和你打,」</p>
<p> 我馬上叫部長(captain)出來,我說:是他先惹事,如他要打架,我奉陪,但你要當證人,如他被打死,不是我的錯。(If he wants to fight, I don’t mind. But you will be the witness. If he gets killed, it is not my problem. )他搭手,我一穿,我整件衣服也給他扯開,他是懂功夫的,但我不怕。如果我要打他,我要打到他不能站起來,但我要有證人。部長摑他一耳光,說:「做工想打架,你是不是找死。」就制止了一場戰爭,但他以後不敢碰我。同時,華人有三個,他也另眼相看,不敢惹我們。</p>
<p> 還有一件趣事,一名意大利侍應,做工時手指經常豎立,我說:「為什麼你那麼女兒態?你的手指為何經常豎起? 」(How comes you are so feminine? How come your finger always points out? )</p>
<p> 他說:「不是,我受過傷,手指就這樣豎了起來,是永久的了。」(No, I hurt myself. Doctor said it’s stuck like this, forever. )</p>
<p> 我心想,為什麼外國人這麼笨,這是骨較的問題,我們以前學功夫時也兼學跌打,<br>
可以弄好的,我有心使他復元。我就問他怕不怕痛。</p>
<p> 他說:是的,我不會覺得痛。(Well, Okay I never feel pain.)</p>
<p> 我說:「這一次你會覺得痛,但如你可以,我會處理得好。」(This time you will. but if you can, I can handle it.)</p>
<p> 他說:不要講笑,如你可以醫好我,我會稱你為趙醫生。(Don’t be kidding. If you can fix it for me, I will call you Dr. Chiu.)</p>
<p> 我說:你肯定你不怕痛?(Are you sure you are not afraid of pain?)</p>
<p> 他說:不會,可以的。(No, Okay.)</p>
<p> 我盡人事,我說:給我你的手。(Give me your hands.)這些骨較,如果你曉得去弄的話,你不怕痛,很容易弄好的。</p>
<p>問:這是不是跌打?</p>
<p>趙:我說:「給我你的手,是我的了,不要嘗試和我鬥力。」(Give me your hands. It’s mine Now. Don’t try to fight with me.)</p>
<p> 他很自然,放軟身體,完全給我弄。我轉多兩轉,揉兩揉,一扭。他說:噢,趙醫生,趙醫生!(Oh, Dr. Chiu, Dr. Chiu!)</p>
<p> 後來他每次看見我的時候,他都這樣叫我,他的醫生以為不可醫治的症,其實很容易,拉直,拉開,放回原位。我叫他一有空,就握著,生實了就無事。有些小事為他做,讓人尊敬,無問題,他永遠都會記得你。</p>
<p> 在那裡的趣事,不要叫人歧視自己,有人說時時被其他人歧視,(I am always discriminated by others. )我說:「不,你不會被歧視,沒有人可以歧視你,這是美國。」(No, if you don’t discriminate yourself, nobody would discriminate against you. This is America.)</p>
<p> 我曾經試過在地車(subway),有個白人老人,我原本很尊老敬賢,但他說:你這骯髒的中國豬佬,不要坐在我的旁邊。(You dirty Chink pig. Don’t sit next to me.)</p>
<p> 我說:你以為你是誰,你這骯髒的豬!(What the hell you think you are. You dirty pig! )就一屁股撞回去。他當堂嚇至動也不敢動。</p>
<p> 我說不要歧視任何人,每個人都是平等的。(Don’t try to discriminate anybody. Everyone is equal. )</p>
<p> 在美國,我真的好像沒有被人歧視我,我會以牙還牙,如果你用開玩笑的口吻對我,我會以開玩笑的口吻回敬你,如果你認為不可以回敬,你就是歧視我,你會好麻煩,我會由此跟進下去。所以很多人對我很尊敬。尤其有些人認為他是至高無上的,沒有這樣的事。美國是伸張民主的國家,我要他們做到貼貼切切。</p>
<p>問:做完Reubin餐館後,你還做過什麼?</p>
<p>趙:當時我爸爸需要人到郊區幫他的老闆發展開新舖,問我要不要幫他忙,因我十一歲時,爸爸就到日本工作,所以我很少機會與他生活在一起,所以我說可以,我希望和爸爸在一起,那時雖然我在Reubin一星期賺到300多元,我到他老闆的餐館工作祇有二百底薪每一月,連小費祇有一仟,我還是答應跟他去。後來因為Reubin的工人做事太髒亂,又因為老闆是意大利人,以為自己大過一切,終於被衛生局關閉…。很是遺憾。</p>
<p> </p>
<p>問:你在Reubin做了多久?</p>
<p>趙:我做了差不多有六個月。我記得我見到有侍應生空缺的時候,我問他,但他沒有給我,反而給了他自己人,我覺得他講過的話不算數。所以爸爸問我要不要去,我說去。</p>
<p> 我們倆父子本來打算來美開餐館,他主廚房,我主餐樓,我們在香港買了很多裝飾餐館的物品,移民時帶來,整整有十四箱木箱行李,船運過來,因我認識船公司,他們來幫我們釘裝,幫我們執拾好。艇家沒有收我們錢,因德信行生意不錯,他們對我有禮遇(courtesy)。<br>
在美國收貨,很容易,在香港做入口可以,為什麼在美國不可以?照樣問,自己清關,將貨搬回家來,那時請唐人街貨運幫我搬。</p>
<p> 我和爸爸到Port Washington幫人開餐館,由sketch開始(從零開始),我教他們,由寫菜譜(set up menu)到管理(management),爸爸教老闆做廚,我教老闆兒子做餐樓。之後他們懂得後,爸爸到麻州又幫助別人開新舖,爸爸在Port Washington收取月薪800元,在麻省也是取800元,我則由每月由1500元,去到那裡取1000元。就算少了工資也願意,因為我想和爸爸在一起,既可彌補父子的感情,又可以照顧爸爸。後來他自己到波士頓,他們只要廚師,我就回去紐約Rubin,見到它關了門,同事說就快開門,因為富敦經理(Fulton)和衛生局對罵,以為自己大過任何人, 誰不知官員一貼紙,整間餐館要關門,要清理後才可以重開,後來我幫他們開門,但其後生意一落千丈,差到不得了,一星期左右,爸爸問我:「這裡有個缺,你來不來?」我說好,就去,到麻省(諾盛頓市)Lexington,在北京園 (PEKING GARDEN) 那裡幫手做企枱。</p>
<p> 還有一段古,到華盛頓高地(Washington Heights)坐內陸(Continental巴士) 到波士頓 (Boston),等候巴士時曾差不多被打劫。我意欲避他,他卻逼近我,我蓄勢待發,幸虧巴士到站,我連隨跳上客車,避過一劫。</p>
<p> 我曾被劫兩次,第一次在1971年在致美樓做企枱,早上等致美樓開門,三個黑人,很肥很高大,扼我的頸,想拖我去樓梯邊,我雖然個子小,但很靈敏,我一盤手擋(block)回去,他在我前面,我鬆出來,扎馬準備還要打,他們卻說:「只是開開玩笑!」(Oh, just for fun.),我覺得很奇怪,原來他們眼見前面有個警察站在我後面不遠處,我就對警察說:「這些人想打劫我!」(These people want to mob me.)<br>
警察卻說:「他們還沒有做什麼呢?」(They didn’t do anything yet.)我很激氣,叫「打劫!打劫!」卻沒有人理會,我很激氣,為什麼中國人不幫中國人?為什麼不團結起來?為什麼讓人欺負?這三個人一直盯著我,但沒有用,因為致美樓開門,我就進去做工,之後也沒有再見他們。</p>
<p> 很多時華人很多時被打劫,沒有人敢出聲,因為沒有自己的地位,以前在華人社區,根本上沒有人理會 (care for) 你。垃圾一大堆,污糟辣塌。更有人說華人愛拿救濟的身份,所以愛骯髒,但如果是真的話,華埠不會這麼繁榮,又增多了許多人。除了9/11以後慘很多,但比起32年前,華人能夠自強不息,什麼都自力更生,看看孔子大廈、且林士果廣場 (Chatham Square) 、且林士果.格林 (Chatham Green)、嘉華銀行,永明大廈都是好例子,是自己建築的,在顯利街 (Henry St.) 就有亨通大廈,陸續下去,華人本身有一個階段經濟飽和的時間。是的,9/11 害到華人很慘,故此中華公所、福建僑團、客屬僑團一起出來,一起推廣,希望能夠重新繁榮華埠。</p>
<p>問:那時華埠是怎樣的?</p>
<p>趙:那時華埠很破爛,不若現在旺,32年從一個很陋習的地方發展為一個衛星城市,如不相信可走一走勿街 (Mott)、百老匯(Broadway)、東百老匯(East Broadway),格蘭(Grand)街,賣菜、賣魚、賣肉、禮物店,是的,在9/11之後是差了一大截,9/11之後的兩三倍就是9/11之前的景象。當然,將來一直繁榮華埠,如更加見效,很需要聯邦政府,州政府,大家合作,作為一個團隊(as a team),他們一起來這裡,那華埠會很好,也需要哈曼頓下城發展公司(LMDC)、我愛紐約(I Love New York)、帝國州發展局(Empire State)等一直幫忙,<br>
是的,人力財力可能不足,我的看法是羊毛出在羊身上,不要說要拿很多救濟,我們要想幫到多些,以華人的精神,自強不息,自力更生,夥同 (partner) 一起作團隊 (as a team),完滿地將華人的地位提升。</p>
<p> 亦看到官員由漠不關心到更多關心華埠,因為人口多了,我們要多謝新移民,很相信如果不是人口多了,也不會有這些多政客垂青華埠。希望大家要新舊移民混合一起,團結一致,搞好社區,使社區更安定繁榮,和政府更多幫助這社區。</p>
<p>(Side 2 of tape)<br>
問:趙先生,我知道你有很多生意,9/11對你生意有什麼影響?</p>
<p>趙:我在美國32年,我在華埠正式做事在這二十年,為什麼有10年不在華埠,甚至在華埠沒有發展生意?因為開始時華埠地方爛,人丁少,被欺負、被打劫時沒有人理會你,覺得是一個很冷酷的地方,不喜歡到。</p>
<p> 那時和爸爸到麻省(Massachusetts),那裡也有唐人街,沒有這一邊旺,很少華人餐館,我們在美國兩年,便還清爸爸的債務,又從新借貸,建立我們的將來。在朋友的介紹下,也是幫我們租屋的鄭伯伯,在Setauket開一家外賣餐館,爸爸主內,我主外,主理樓面及銀櫃(counter)。我想這都是命運的安排,<br>
因為中國餐在近郊(suburb)不很流行,要慢慢介紹(educate),感謝神(Thank God)因我懂英文,我去介紹和解釋。</p>
<p> 但剛剛開始時,爸爸因心臟病過世,他在美國不足三年就過世了。當時店中的重任放在我的身上,我要主外又要主內,本身起初時,不會煮菜,在香港明愛青年中心,曾做籌款,有幾度菜做得不錯,是爸媽教導的。在這裡,跟了爸爸一段時候,不是完全懂得煮,在美國沒有人,除了爸爸幾個好朋友以外,什麼人也不認識,什麼都要自己去闖,咬緊牙關,第一做到自力更生。在美國30年來,爸爸的宗旨是希望我們接受美國教育,將來有些前途,第二希望發展比在香港好,由於這兩點,30年來,由最困難的時候,我沒有接受過政府一毛錢的救濟,政府也提供 (offer) 過,但我們沒有接受,因為不是為拿這些,因為要自己奮鬥,爸爸說,自己做出來的事物,吃得特別甜。我一直抱著這個宗旨。</p>
<p> 媽媽因為爸爸很早過世,傷心欲絕,她只能在旁邊看著我們,很難做工。我媽媽很早嫁給爸爸,跟他到上海,兩年不足,到香港,生了我。在1960年八、九歲時,我爸爸到日本八年,等於我媽媽見爸爸的時間也不是太多。到美國以後,媽媽以為可以跟爸爸團聚,雖然說我們是很幸福的家庭,但來到這裡也有不幸的事發生,就是爸爸早逝。</p>
<p> 美國雖然有保險,但我們違反這規條,我們中國人覺得不吉利,不喜歡聽這些東西,只會自保,<br>
我們早期未能領會這點,直至我做這間餐館,保險公司的經理是我餐館的客戶,他問:「為什麼不見那個肥佬 (他不知道是我爸爸) 煮東西?」提起這些傷心的事情,我說他是我們的爸爸,已經過世。他說:「噢!對不起,噢,有沒有買人壽保險呢?」(Oh, sorry. Oh, does he have any life insurance?) 我說沒有,我們不相信這些,他問:「為什麼不買?」(Why not?) 我說在香港很多人沒有這些興趣,不信這些。我們再談話講及這些理念及理想,他就講了一句,令我覺得好似被打了一大拳,他說:「如果你和爸爸都相信這些保險,又買了一份,最起碼他可以實現他的理想,而你可以做些你喜歡的事情。」這句說話擊中我的要害。我問:「但是,誰會知道你們的保險,真正有得賠償?」他亦很客觀地說,我亦不要你馬上相信我的話,你可以抽時間下來我的公司,自己查證一下,聽下及問下。我覺得有理由,我就去他公司查問了三個月,然後同意去考保險師牌照。</p>
<p> 當時有30多個學生,好像只有我一個有問題,我的問話很刁鑽,由頭問到腳,我每次都說:「可能我蠢一點,但我不明白,希望你能解釋給我聽。」導師說:「你不蠢,其實你是最聰明的一個,個個你以為他們明白,但他們扮懂,但其實不懂(pretend that they know but they don’t.)」於是30多人之中只有3個考到牌,包括我。導師(trainer)說,我不是告訴過你嗎? (Did I tell you something?)我說他說得對。(You are right.)其他都肥佬 (不合格),三個考到之中,只有我一個做了30年。人生真的很難說。</p>
<p> 我忘記起初的問題是什麼?</p>
<p>問:我是問,你覺得唐人街的變化?</p>
<p>趙:唐人街的變化從很多酒鬼在包厘到現在一個酒鬼都沒有;從一兩萬元至幾千元可以買到一座樓,到現在幾百萬元起;<br>
變化相當大,從幾家美國銀行,到現在華人開的銀行及外資進來的銀行,以這樣小的地方,在這麼多的銀行,是很少見的。所以說,華埠的變化不大,那是不對的。</p>
<p> 華埠將來當然更加好,但我們需要聯邦政府、州政府、市政府來和我們一起工作,(work as a team)來華埠幫手,華埠才可以重建,才能夠做得更加好。我們發覺到政府都是有這種心意,希望華埠的商家,能夠和所有願意和華埠合作的人,將華埠的精要點,完全可以上到網頁(internet),讓我們的子孫見到,可以在華埠看到我們的輝煌歷史,在慘淡的時候,看到我們的掙扎,奮鬥;和他們做生意,讓他們明白中國人的文化,給好榜樣給外國人看,</p>
<p>問:你是否早期華埠第一個經營保險(insurance)的人?</p>
<p>趙:可以這麼說,我在1974年爸爸過世,1975年4月28日開始和紐約人壽正式簽約,在福州人當中,只有倆人,我是其中之一。當時簽約以為做20年,便可以退休,其實沒有可能退休,拿到資深代理(Senior Nylic Agent)好難將客戶棄之不理,唯有再做,30年拿到高級拿到資深代理(Post Senior Nylic Agent),但做到那時,更難將客戶棄之不理,所以,要做到死的一天為止。</p>
<p>問:你覺得9/11對保險業的影響如何?</p>
<p>趙:9/11對保險業影響很大,除了紐約人壽保險以外,因公司批准我,可以做商業保險,及家庭房產保險,所以我也銷售物業及傷亡、家居、責任,及保証險(property and casualty, homeowner, liability and bonds)。除紐約人壽外,投資、共同基金、退休基金(investment, mutual fund、IRA)、連車、屋、布、廠房、車衣廠、工傷保險,工病保險、別人需要的保証險(bonds),我全部都有。20年前,到華埠,第一個地方租永明大廈,十年以後,租宰也(Doyers)街11號,到現在來到這一邊。</p>
<p> 為什麼中間少了一段時間?因為我在外州及石溪 (Stony Brook) 附近的事多吉(Setauket)做餐館。</p>
<p> 為什麼我又做保險?因為我的爸爸到美不足三年就去世了,一毛錢保險都沒有。經理跟我說:「你知不知道和你一樣的華人,需要你的幫助,告訴他們保險的好處?」我由那裡開始,到今日為止,我都本著服務的宗旨,希望將這一個好消息及好處分給華人,除了民主之外,還要有保障,所謂有保障,就是家人所有的尊嚴不能給其他人侵佔傷害,因為一家之主或兩個主力做楝樑,支持家中主要收入者,萬一其中一個或兩個不在,他們仍然如印錢機器,不停地印,使家人有生活保障,如果這人不在,好像機器壞了,要有人幫你印錢,那就是紐約人壽燕梳(保險),所以家家擁有最好,對他們就有很好的保障。如沒有事,更好,因為裡面有很多錢積聚,作退休補助之用,我們有很多客戶,退休時拿出來的錢比退休金還多,退休金只有幾百元,他們有30年的保險,他們聽我講可以做到無憂米,他們的晚年現在生活得很好。</p>
<p>問:9/11對保險業的影響如何?</p>
<p>趙:9/11對保險業影響,尤其是物業及傷亡科(p&c,property and casualty)影響重大,因為9/11倒塌後的樓宇,付出的要賺回來,很多人因為生意做不來,保險費又貴,有些人說:「現在食也保不住,如何保,不保了,搏一搏,做得不來就關門。」生意難做,因為保費貴,貴就寧願不買了。</p>
<p>問:比9/11之前貴了多少?</p>
<p> 趙:貴很多,兩三年漲的保險費升了40至50%,每年升10至20%,加起來要40至50%,因為損失了的錢始終要取回,籌集(recruit) 所有的錢,所以生意不好做,但,是不是完全沒有了?那又不是,在別的地方補回來。如人壽保險反而好做,因為人們清楚明白,無端端不可預知的,我當時預備過橋,看著它一直倒塌,好慘,眼淚一直留下來,覺得沒有可能,但是發生了。</p>
<p>問:9/11發生時,你在那裡?</p>
<p>趙:我在橋頭,因為有消息不准過,因為那天要早出去,不然不會這麼早出去。當不能過橋的時候,我打電話到五分局問他們需不需要翻譯,譬如華埠很多人不懂英文,人們不知道發生什麼事,告訴人們要不要走,要他們走避。我一直打電話,但到下午六時都沒有人接電話,為什麼呢?因為每個人都在外面搶救人,已經沒有人接電話,真好像戰亂,完全失去消息,有幸入不了唐人街,因為有兩三天都不能出來,起碼有兩三個星期才准去唐人街,而且要帶證件。</p>
<p>問:你覺得9/11事件如何?</p>
<p>趙:我覺得民主是好的,但是太民主是一個禍害,為什麼可以這樣說?因為恐怖份子能夠從容犯罪,為什麼可以搬石頭打自己的腳?就是因為美國太民主,以致很多剛做事新興的年青人,因為相信很大部份航空業的從業員都是年青人,<br>
他們無憂無慮,吃得好,住得好,教育好,最緊要享受,平日做工,你可以看見他們傾偈,天南地北。取工資應該要做事,而不是談話,講笑,就是因為這班人,他們讓恐怖份子劫了飛機也不知道,走了一小時才撞進世貿中心。反映美國政府及美國國民制度需要檢討,如果不能像華人般自強不息,不鼓勵自己做得更好,而苟且偷安,則遲早有事發生。不要怪布殊(Bush)有情報不知,不要怪克林頓(Clinton)做得不好,反而要學約翰.甘迺迪(J.F. Kennedy),不要問國家可以給你什麼,你要問你有什麼可以貢獻給國家?我們本身要貢獻自己本身的能力,搞好華埠,9/11雖然很殘酷,但如果個個人都有這份心力,華埠必定興起碼多一半以上。</p>
<p> 如果你不同意,你可以看看,以新華僑為計,你可以去東百老匯看看,9/11之後,華埠有沒有沉過?你可以去看看,要做的,不單是東百老匯(East Broadway)簡單,別的地方也很重要,你說珠寶行業、禮品行業、餐館行業,如果沒有外面的人來到這裡,華埠就很傪了。</p>
<p> 再說回來,哥倫布公園地底亭車場計劃,如有辦法,可以有多層地底的停車場,六、七、八層,等他們有地底停車場,有幾千輛車可得到這裡的泊車位,他們才可以多來,不會憂慮有沒有地方泊車,不會憂慮是否付得起車費,讓華埠變成購物天堂,食品天堂。更多人來華埠,華埠絕對可以興起。</p>
<p> 現在政府已研究在那裡做,哥倫布公園(Columbus Park)已放在名單之內,希望能夠成功通過,以哥倫布公園為一個,我夠膽說:華埠的泊車(parking)、聯邦政府、州政府、市政府的公務員的泊車(parking),完全可以不需擔心,沒有爭議。我們做事,一定要做要一針見血,不要馬虎,張冠李戴,其實很多事做得不對。我覺得哥倫布泊車(Columbus Parking) 一層可以泊到300至400輛車,如果全面興建停車場七、八、九、十層,<br>
可以泊三至四千輛車,華埠還可以載更多人,可以增建,生意可以更加好做,泊車費可以比較便宜,反正是一處地方,經濟可以做了,公園(park)一樣可以做,變不變是地底的建設,以今天的科技可以做得到。</p>
<p>問:何時可以落實這計劃?</p>
<p>趙:計劃正在研究中,我是哈曼頓下城發展公司(LMDC)顧問團其中一個顧問,已經開了兩次會,在四月會公佈,以繁榮華埠為目的,希望這次他們能夠順利通過,將來會做很多公共關係(public relations),搞很多活動(events),已經有整套計劃,其實明早十時又要開會了,其中有時都會談論這方面的事情。</p>
<p>問:趙先生,除了保險業,你還有很多生意,可不可以談談?</p>
<p>趙:不單是我的生意,就以旅遊業來說,9/11以後,幾乎全部要倒閉,當時是團隊(team work)的開始,很多批發商(wholesaler)互相支持,互相關懷;有很多已經關門,沒有生意;如分散很多地方,也不能做。我們家族的旅行社沒有生意,因為沒有人出埠,到現在才陸續有些,有些訂酒店、租車、去旅遊,國內仍不是很多。<br>
將來是否復甦仍屬未知素。尤其是航空公司將會壟斷,不需要用到第三者經理(agent)作媒介,將會有一個層次被淡出(phase out),只有很少剩下來,不像現在這麼多,因為根本沒有辦法維持生計。</p>
<p> 問:那末,你自己的六鳳旅行社在那裡?</p>
<p>趙:其實我們只有一個辦公室,什麼生意都包攬。在以前就會分開部門,現在只有一間,將開支減少才有辦法生存。我們也不習慣申請什麼經費(funding),我們覺得可以掂就掂,不成功就關門。</p>
<p>問:其實9/11對你們的打擊有多大?</p>
<p>趙:9/11的打擊令旅遊業幾乎完全沒有生意,因為只有熟客,做少少,比較以前差得很遠。</p>
<p>問:旅遊的套餐(package)主要是國內的嗎?</p>
<p>趙:國內幾乎都沒有人去遊覽了。外面來的人又說反非典(SARS),又說防恐,很多簽證不成,來不到美國。反而新僑取得綠卡,回鄉或返港,就有些生意,否則根本不會有生意。</p>
<p>問:你從事旅遊的生意,有三十多年嗎?</p>
<p>趙:旅遊生意,從1971年開始做,做到現在,起初剛到的時候,只做了一陣子,後來來到這一邊,在長島的事多吉(Setauket)做,到後來買了回來,我們到華埠時,也沿用Setauket Travel,因為Setauket是鄉下名,中文名則叫六鳳,為什麼叫六鳳? 因為六鳳是我爸爸出生的家鄉,中文名不變,後到在華埠就英文名叫「華埠旅遊」(Chinatown Travel)。</p>
<p> 問:依你所見,現在的華埠是否旅遊業的谷底?</p>
<p>趙:現在是華埠旅遊業的最低潮,是掙扎求存的時候,團結很重要,如大家肯辛苦些,艱苦經營,希望有個生機,否則真的不容易了。</p>
<p>問:除此之外,你還有什麼生意?</p>
<p>趙:出入口,9/11時我做過海蜇頭,但是貨停滯,不能賣出,我的損失很嚴重。貨存在倉裡,不能賣,要倒掉,苦不堪言。做這一門生意,如果客人不付錢,我們就不再取貨,我們就再不入這項貨品,所以幾乎沒有得做。</p>
<p>問:為什麼這行入口食品特別受影響?</p>
<p>趙:因為9/11後,餐館業蕭條,人們的收入受影響,經濟蕭條,誰會吃這些奢侈品?海蜇頭算是奢侈品,很貴$7,8,9,10一包,劣質的才賣$3。</p>
<p>問:當時損失多少?</p>
<p>趙:實質的損失有數十萬,血本無歸,要付倉租,其他的錢已付出,不能取回,損失很慘重。</p>
<p>問:你有這麼多不同的生意,9/11對你是否很大的打擊?</p>
<p> 趙:正式來說,對任何人都是一個很大的打擊,對我來說亦是一個打擊,幸好有保險行業可以保存,算是苟延殘喘。</p>
<p>問:趙先生,你是福州人,以前來的福州人和現在的福州人有甚麼分別,或者現在在大陸的福州又如何?</p>
<p>趙:現在福州人和以前的福州人有很大的分別。1971年來,你會認得到那些是這裡的人,那些是走船來的人,他們10個中有9個半是蓋著頭,左顧右盼,低下頭,我不忍心他們給別人認出來,我會拍拍他們的肩膊,嚇他們一大跳,我和他先講廣東話,如果他不曉得回答,我就用小時候學的不純正的福州話跟他們說,如發覺真是福州鄉里,我就提醒:「你不要這樣一縮一縮走路,你這樣縮頭縮尾,人們會知道你走船,會有人拘捕你,像我這樣走路,就沒有人會拉你。」我敢說,很多人都會記得我這樣說過。哈哈。</p>
<p>問:以前偷渡為什麼這樣容易?</p>
<p>趙:其實也不是這般容易,因為以前的海員有通行證(pass),他們用通行證上了岸就不回去,所以叫跳船,以前除了這個方法之外,也沒有很多其他方法,所以大部份都是跳船來。因為他們在裡面做工,作為一個水手或一個海員(as a seaman, sailor or as a crew),或者在廚房幫手,運貨等,所以等來到美國時逃走,就不返回去船。很少在船上跳入海,然後游泳,入來,並不是這個意思。</p>
<p> 就像留學生,到美國後,覺得都是在美國好,就找人擔保,不回去。或旅遊來,做生意覺得在美國好,<br>
都留下來,不回去。其實都是其中一個轉變身份的方法,或者你或是很有錢,可以旅遊簽證入境,或做生意取綠卡,也好,也沒有錯。(It’s good. Nothing wrong with that.) 如果是其他人,沒有這麼優厚的條件,變了用適合自己的方法。</p>
<p> 那我是否反對任何一個非法入境的人?其實不然,因為美國人本身都是偷渡入境,侵佔他人的國境,才成為一個美國。任何一個土生土長的人,認為移民是不對的、是犯法,是應該制裁的,那是不對的,就好像摑自己一下耳光,除非他們是紅印第安人。任何一人都不應該反對,否則他們今天就不應該在這裡了。</p>
<p> 但我們應有一個方法,幫助他們行正軌,因為有一少部份新移民到美國作奸犯科,危害華人或公眾安全,我們亦見到有些華人被欺壓、凌辱、暗殺、謀殺。如果我們能夠團結一起,互相幫助,我們的力量就會很大,為什麼呢?我們華人人口越多,將來票數越多,將來政客就會替我們做得好,更加體貼入微。如果大家互相殘殺,互相排斥的話,我們所得到的,只會被政客利用。我們需要官員做我們的公僕,為我們服務,他們出來代表我們華人,也要真真正正為我們服務。否則,我們沒有發生作用。</p>
<p>問:趙先生,這麼多年來,你一定回去福州看過,你的感覺又如何?</p>
<p>趙:我回福州看過,我在1980年,即十年之後,第一次經香港去福州,因我媽媽辛辛苦苦,跟爸爸回福州來到香港,來到美國,也未返回過福州,直至1977年,她回去。我沒有錢,到銀行借錢讓她回去看看她的父母,一償她的宿願。然後,我媽媽希望她的父母來美國玩,1980年我返去福州帶他們到廣州簽證,帶他們經香港來美國。來到這裡,<br>
終於我外公問我媽媽一句,「如果我死了,你會如何處置我的遺體?」我媽媽說:「如果你喜歡,你在這裡陪我的丈夫。」外公說:「不可以,這裡太靜,我要回去。」媽說:「你不用現在趕著回去,你留在這裡,我答應你如你百年歸老,我送你回去。」外公說:「如果到時你不送我回去,我又怎樣?我在那裡比較熱鬧些,」他堅持一定要返回中國,他說我們落地歸根也是好的。老人家已經80多歲,留在這裡,只望著天,對著四度牆,雖然我們住在二層歐式住宅 (colonial) ,家中也不算小,有前後花園走動,但老人家也不習慣。他便和我外婆回去,兩年之後,我外公他老人家過身了,已經是90多歲。我和媽媽回去為他做喪事,那時我正在外州(西維吉尼亞州 West Virginia) 公司為我們召開最高層會議,也要向公司請假趕回來,陪媽媽到中國辦喪事,事後再回來美國。現在我外婆仍健在,她亦來過美國2,3次,她又覺得悶,又回去中國。</p>
<p> 返回去說在1980年見到福州的情形,可以講,由香港踏入廣州我一直在哭,為什麼?因為中國當時很慘,灰塵滾滾,什麼都沒有,我想:中國這樣窮,為什麼不會讓人看扁?到上海日日擠車,12公里可以開車兩小時也到不了目的地,我步行也應該到。覺得很落後,很慘。</p>
<p> 下到福州,風一吹,黃沙滾滾,樓宇又爛,什麼都沒有,中國真的很慘,那是在1980年。</p>
<p> 1982年回去就開始看見轉變,1984年因為要為外公辦喪事。1983年代表這裡的社區捐錢辦龍舟比賽,鼓吹體育,組團回去,又不同了。每次回福州都看見轉變,去年9月時,到處是高速公路(highway),到處是天橋,馬路井然有序,樓房高到看不見,看不盡。起初1980年回去時,單車多到你過不了馬路,現在二樓興建行人天橋,<br>
不需要行馬路,在華埠鼓吹的行人天橋,在二樓塔過去,不需要在地面過馬路,車仍然是車水馬龍。二樓還創商機,可以做生意,人們在二樓兼做生意,不單是在樓下,我覺得是好事,這是龐大的計劃,日後有錢還應擴展。</p>
<p> 將來正式要繁榮華埠,也會建議需要這樣的建設。</p>
<p>問:在福州看見這麼繁榮的變化,是不是因為移民回去發展?</p>
<p>趙:不單止是新移民,還有舊移民,回去買樓投資,做生意,也不單是福州市,福州市郊,甚至長樂市,都完全翻新,鄉下地方建設還比城市較多,馬路及高速公路(highway)建設發達,由福州至廈門,現在只需一個鐘頭,以前開車要8個鐘頭,交通發達,樓房多得很,住的人反而比較少。樓價也不會貴下去,因為供不應求才貴,供過於求會跌。</p>
<p> 我曾帶警察團回去中國,他們說:現在我明白了為什麼新移民冒死也來美國,願意滙錢回中國來,寧願來這裡付擔沉重的債務,因為他們在美國捱幾年回去,就可以在鄉下,建三、四層高樓,用的不是紅磚,是漂亮的白磚,並滿舖欄杆,好像有錢人住的地方,很豪華。</p>
<p>問:你做過什麼其他公積?</p>
<p> 趙:其實我做事從來不想過有回報,做完就算。做得較大的,是幫人檢命,是金旅號那回擱淺,浸死十個人,我們在社區以美國福建工商總會的名義,將受害人的屍首領(claim)回來,幫他們入土為安,並找回家屬。有4位很幸運,很容易找到家屬,有名字,有家屬領回。還有六位比較不幸,我們幫他收殮,由五福殯儀館的麥潔明陳太,和應行久太太金玉堂出一萬元,我們出力,五福殯儀館幫手出錢出力,不足之額由五福補貼。做善事很多方法。到現時為止,我們還在找尋死者的家屬。其中一位可能會找到,因為十年以後,華文新聞業朋友找我,再次在報上作呼籲,有家屬來問遺失十年的兒子在那裡,但因為留下的血太少,只有一滴血,而大概需要一方吋才夠化驗遺傳因子(DNA),不知道可不可以,如果發現是相同,是真正親屬,則可多認一個。</p>
<p>問:金旅號是否大部份是福州人?</p>
<p>趙:大部份是福州人,但發覺也有溫州人,因為第二個來領屍的親屬是溫州人,在認領的時候,移民局還說要拉人,我們說他們沒有人道,後來放了才無事。因為美國有民主政制,說她不民主他們就不舒服,才肯公開(release)十個人的名字,讓人收領出來,當時每一個人要我簽紙才能認領(claim),因為是我領屍出來的。</p>
<p>問:這宗慘劇對移民有什麼啟示?</p>
<p> 趙:正式來說,讓他們知道,不要以為美國是天堂。每次我回去解釋給他們,他們就當我唱歌,當我是假的。第一,美國是勞改營,無人應每天做工13至14小時,但我在美國32年,我起碼每天做13小時,所以我說美國是勞改營。他們說:「那你又留在美國?」我說:「我沒有辦法。」他們硬是不相信。</p>
<p> 他們說美國是天堂,我說:「美國是天堂,亦是地獄,」如果賺不到錢,你就在地獄,如果賺到錢,在那裡都是天堂,不單在美國是天堂,在中國也是天堂。我說「你們身在福中不知福,現在如果你們不用做事也有得食,在美國沒有做事就沒有得食。」當時沒有人信我,來到這裡,才知道我講的是對的,他們向我說:「如果聽你話就好了,不聽你話就慘了。」</p>
<p>問:金旅事件發生後,在大陸及福州是否會警惕,會比較少人來美?</p>
<p>趙:我想他們掩藏得不錯,沒有很多人知道有金旅號這些事件,因為蓋得密。反而在外國的人就知道,因為在國外的中國朋友在電視看到,我們收殮那些死者,還到沙灘超渡,報紙有報導,所以他們知道。</p>
<p> 我們和社區做的事,最大的有重開格蘭街地車站(Grand Street Station),到最後,我要求一條巴士線由格蘭街車站(Grand St. Station)到DeKalb Ave. ,不需乘客周圍(到處)走,周圍轉車。最後他們都做到。做曼哈頓橋,本來說要八年的長時間,縮到現在兩年,格蘭街地車站(Grand Street Station)就通車了。所以幫手做的事,都有好的結果。</p>
<p> 至於清潔華埠,我們亦盡一分力,但他不是太見效,我認為我們的華埠應有自己私人的倒垃圾車,在某個時候,如垃圾已經堆滿,應該要完全清理,我覺得多付一點錢也是值得的,使華埠地方更清潔,更多人更樂意來華埠購物。因為首先華埠物價已經便宜。</p>
<p> 補路方面,華埠很多地方爛,東百老匯已經正在轉好,上個月我還投訴,(complain),因為兩年前撥款已經下來做宰也街及東百老匯的路面,他們還說沒有經費,我說:「你不能說沒有經費,因為聯邦政府已經撥款下來。你說其他理由,我或者可以接受,但不是藉口。」後來真的在一星期後,他們開始動工。希望他們做得好,但我見到他們做的馬路,不是以前做的7吋厚,現在只是做2,3吋,我覺得那是敷衍形式。但他們說,若馬路要全翻時,做法同現在不同。希望他們真的做好,因為東百老匯有兩個地方,時時都下陷,補完又下陷,補完又下陷,如果沒有這情況,就算是替華埠造福。</p>
<p> 除了這些以外,我本人認為,是華埠的泊車位不夠,日日都有人投訴,說公職人員泊佔用泊車位,為什麼不設地底停車場城,有三、四層,讓他們可泊個飽?不會阻地方。<br>
或者做一至三條有自動電梯上落的行人天橋,能在馬路高空架橋讓老人能自己行走,不會阻車,降低老年行人被車碰倒枉死街頭,這會否令華埠繁榮?</p>
<p>問:這計劃何時推出?</p>
<p>趙:我相信哈曼頓下城發展公司(LMDC) 可以說,有七成在我理想中已經做到,我覺得這些是很重要,且是必要的,因為華埠現時和30年前已經完全不同,9/11以後,中國人講一句「今非昔比」,9/11後,比以前差,但要華埠比以前更好,如泊車很重要,如果住的地方也不夠,那有地方泊車?如果我想到華埠,一停車起碼要二、三十元,<br>
倒不如在自己家附近用膳,也不過是數十元。</p>
<p> 我也希望另外一個計劃──第二大道的地車站儘快點建成,盡快開始越好,對繁榮華埠是一個很大幫忙。32年來,我們華埠沒有正式的車站,如在來了華埠是一大方便,在勿街頭(Mott),東百老匯 (East Broadway) 與袙道(Park Row)頭的角落,只要在東百匯、袙道頭地下鑿一個洞在那裡就可以了,地車就在下面,希望能夠越快開就越好,能夠繁榮華埠。</p>
<p>問:趙先生,你當初覺得警民關係不太好,這幾年有沒有轉變?</p>
<p>趙:警民關係這幾年轉變很大,我曾經到警察總局分析華人的心態,不要以為華人和警察對抗,和做警察對華人應該有的禮貌及態度。可能因為這樣,所以我結識了一班警官,和我關係很好,所以我帶他們回國內,他們也發現到大部份的華人都很好,除了一小撮要他們去對付,所以他們對華人的態度已經好了很多。</p>
<p> 有一次在東百老匯警察捉小販,警察到時,小販走,警察走時,小販再回來,警察一直拘捕不到小販,很激氣,有一名華人警察把小孩子當垃圾般擲入警車,個個華人都嘩然,叫我將警察控告。被捕者很怕,一來沒有身份,二來怕放出來後,不能生存,會被警察逼害。同時,這個警察亦是華人警察,是初次犯事。雖然有人說:「如果不教訓他,他以後更惡,」認為警察很囂張像香港殖民地的警察。<br>
我第一次和他對立時,他當時很激氣,我們不能怪他,因為他當時很激氣,氣上心頭,我也很氣。</p>
<p> 我很平淡跟他說:「我知道你現在很氣,氣上心頭,但我要告訴你,如果你今日擲的是我的兒子,我會拔槍打死你,你做了一些很愚蠢的的事,是警官不應該做的,如果你不道歉,我會令你不好過,所有的記者就在警察局門前面,你要不要在明日的報紙上刊登你的名字,包括紐約時報?你也會失去工作,他說:「好,我就道歉。」他關上門就向當事人一家道歉,他們都向我喝采,我希望和平解決,而不是鬥爭,他知道自己有錯,知錯能改,就是我想做到的,我不想釘死一個人,如使他失業,領救濟,又為了什麼? 我們要一個好的社區,共同合作,每個人都會犯錯,對不對?<br>
(I know you are very mad at this moment and very excited. But let me tell you one thing. If the child you threw is my son, I will pull my gun and shoot you. You are doing something very stupid, not supposed to do by an officer. If you don’t want to say a sorry and apologize for this act. I am going to put you down.” He tried to confront me. I told him, wait a moment, I let you open the door and let you see what kind of weapons we have. All the reporters are at the front door. Do you want me to put you on all the newspaper tomorrow including New York Times? And you will lose your job too. He said, “Alright, I will apologize.” Then he closed the door and apologized to the victim and family. They all greeted at me. I want them to be at peace, not fight. As long as he knows he is wrong. He corrects it. This is what I am looking for. I don’t want to nail one person. And he loses his job and goes for welfare, for what? We want a good community. We have to work together. Everybody will make some mistakes, right?)</p>
<p>問:那是什麼年份的事? </p>
<p>趙:這是幾年前的事,現在我們有警民關係,有警少年,我們青少年看見有事,馬上報告,讓警察能夠快點破案,捉人,我們有警察日,社團有贊助參與,聖誕節捐錢給警察局,買禮物送給街坊小孩,打指模、刻印,這都是警民合作的活動。</p>
<p>問:五分局和現在有什麼不同,現在是否同一地點?</p>
<p>趙:地點是一様的,以我所知道五分局30年前已經在這裡,到今日為此,我在裡頭認識一些警長,都很不錯,有幾位對華人很好,<br>
尤其是當奴.力高 (Ronald Lekos) ,他是希臘裔,對華人更加愛護,很幫華人。我們有個陳文業。可能將來有位劉家和(Michael Lau),我現稱他為劉警長(Captain Lau),現在警察總局做公共關係科。</p>
<p>問:即是說,你很滿意現時的警民關係?</p>
<p>趙:正式來說,他們可以做得更好,當然亦可能是資金及人力的問題。</p>
<p>問:趙先生,你有小朋友這裡,你對子女的期望如何?</p>
<p>趙:正式來說,中國人說「養兒防老」,但現在不叫養兒防老,叫「作育英才」,希望他們學到東西,加上家庭的教育,能夠知道什麼是中國人的禮法,能夠更上一層樓,所謂「青出於藍勝於藍」,但如果不可以也沒有辦法,因為美國教育很自由民主,甚至過火,你很難能夠令子女完全…。</p>
<p> 我的大兒子在兵咸頓大學(Binghamton University)唸書,他是後備的國民防衛軍(National Guard Reserve),正在學修理直昇機 (Black Hawk),因為他有意在軍區當 (crew chief) , 這職位要曉得修理整架直昇機,和使用直昇機內的機關槍。去年教新丁用槍射擊,將來幫到國家也很不錯,亦希望他將來讀書更好。</p>
<p> 我的二兒子唸第一年級,成績也不錯,想做科學家,不為賺錢,希望他能夠做一個出色的科學家,否則也學到一些東西,對將來的家庭及自己有作用。</p>
<p>問:你來美國這麼久,9/11又發生了,你覺得美國怎樣?是不是仍然覺得美國是一個好國家?</p>
<p>趙:美國是一個好好的國家,民主是應該的,但千萬不能過火,小孩子如果太民主或錯用民主,很多事情可以發生,甚至有邪教,非法人士用民主來呃錢,不能坐視不理。見到時要點出來。</p>
<p>問:你還有沒有事情要補充?</p>
<p>趙:我正要反問你有什麼要補充,我太多東西要說,講也講不完,我可以再講三天也可以。</p>
<p>問:譬如你對唐人街有什麼期望?</p>
<p>趙:如果我們要共同相處,一起合作,我們要華埠興旺,「家和萬事興,家衰口不停,」以這個為宗旨,大家團結一致,不要搶你的功勞,我的功勞,大家都有功勞,一個人永遠做不了什麼,以team(團隊)的姿態出現,做事,我相來將來的華埠更加好,希望不需要等30年,相信三五年之內更加好,希望成就能加倍,才能表示到大家團結一致,共創華埠,我深信華埠的光明要靠我們這一群,團結從事,我很相信會做到,並且會很成功。</p>
<p>問:非常謝謝你接受訪問,今天是2004年3月30日。這是美國華人博物館的華埠口述歷 史訪問計劃,訪談者是趙伯銘先生,訪問者是我吳翊菁。</p>
<p>趙:謝謝(Thank you)。</p>
<p>(完)</p>
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William Chiu
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Henry Ye
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2003-03-11
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
New Life Center
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
Today is March 11, 2004, I am sitting here with Henry Ye of True
Light Church on Worth Street in Chinatown. Let’s begin by
having you tell us a little bit about where you are from.</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, I was born in China, Canton, and then I went to South America
for six years, and then I end up here in New York.</p>
<p>Q:
Wow, okay, [laughs] that’s very fast. Okay, we have to, we
have to back up. You were born in, in Canton. Can I ask you how old
you are?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, at that time I was thirteen, when I moved out of China.</p>
<p>Q:
And this is in what year?</p>
<p>Ye:
Um, 1982.</p>
<p>Q:
’82. Why did your family decide to leave China?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, my family, um, actually, more, my sister’s family
already is in Central America, so we just migrated there to join
them. And China, of course, have less of opportunity I guess in terms
of better economic situation and you have less, um, choice, of life.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you remember much of your childhood in China?</p>
<p>Ye:
Ah, yeah, a little bit, I think, um, what I can really remember is
that I came from a very poor family, and peasant family, and there
was always lack of food, and lack of money, and I think that South
America probably have a better opportunity because I see my sister
doing well, so we decided to all go to Central America.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
And how, ah, your sister was already living---</p>
<p>Ye:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:---where
in Central America?</p>
<p>Ye:
Panama.</p>
<p>Q:
Okay, so she legally sponsored you to Panama?</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, yeah. My brothers, and all my sister and brother are already
out of China.</p>
<p>Q:
And you went with your parents?<br><br>Ye: My parents actually they
stay behind for a little bit, and then my mom also went to Central
America.</p>
<p>Q:
Well, so how did you feel as a thirteen-year-old? Did you want to
leave China?
</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, thirteen years old, as you say, you know, it’s not that
I have a choice. I just feel like going to somewhere else, it’s
like a trip. You don’t really know how far is that trip until
you get there. So, for me at that time I don’t really have, um,
any feeling, this is my brother going, so I just follow him, and it’s
just like going shopping. You don’t know what will happen, but
I know that I will probably have to go for a long time, you know.</p>
<p>Q:
And did you have any impression of, of what Panama was like?</p>
<p>Ye:
Not really. They just say that that place don’t have winter,
the four seasons the same, hot, you know.</p>
<p>
Q: And did you speak any Spanish at this time, before you
went?</p>
<p>Ye:
Um, not, not really.</p>
<p>Q:
And how was that, getting there, and not speaking the language at
all, did you have a difficult time adjusting?</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, actually it was pretty, pretty hard. Because at that time,
when I was in China, I was in school. But then, when I get to Panama,
of course I don’t speak Spanish, I only speak Chinese, and this
make it kind of hard for me to go to school because, in that area
they don’t really have a bilingual program, like us, here. So
it kind of hard for me to fit in, and I tried to attend school, but I
couldn’t catch up, so I withdraw, and I, stay out of school for
two years, just learning Spanish with, ah, neighbors, you know.</p>
<p>Q:
So how long did it take you to feel, to become comfortable in
Spanish that you can communicate with people?<br><br>Ye: Well, after
a year and a half, I feel much better, and because I still young, at
that time I’m thirteen, so learning Spanish is not that hard,
um, that age. So a year and a half later I feel pretty comfortable
talking to native Panamanian, who was born there. And after that I
feel comfortable and now I decide to go back to school.</p>
<p>Q:
And you didn’t want to go back to China?<br><br>
</p>
<p>Ye:
No, because my whole family is there already. It’s not I have
something to return to. And, I feel, after a year and half, I feel
pretty comfortable living in that new environment, so I have decided
to stay.</p>
<p><br>Q:
And is there a Chinese community in Panama, you can, um, you have
Chinese friends there, are there Chinese stores, food---</p>
<p>
Ye: Ah, yeah, they have a Chinatown actually in Panama
City. It’s very small, very, it’s only like two streets,
but they have Chinese restaurants, and Chinese store. In terms of
friends, I think I have more Panamanian friends than Chinese friends,
because all the Chinese, unless you live in Chinatown, it’s all
spread out all over the place, so you don’t, you don’t
really have much chance to communicate with other Chinese except when
there’s a big holiday celebration and you come together as a
Chinese community, in one of the Chinese association, but other than
that, just have your schoolmate and classmate. But most of them are
Panamanian, you know, born in Panama.</p>
<p>Q:
And you didn’t feel outcast? It was comfortable, I mean, after
you learned to speak the language you, you feel comfortable living
there?
</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, I, I really feel good. Actually the school that I went, um,
the junior high school that I went, actually there is only one
Chinese, which is me. And they treat me pretty well, and most, most
of the classmate and schoolmates treat me well, and they see someone
very different, but they, they also very adaptive, and they also
welcome me into their circle I would say. So, I felt good living
there and having, you know, them as friends.</p>
<p>Q:
And then, how long did you stay in Panama?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, I stayed there for, like, six year. Yeah. I attend school and
then work, you know, for approximately six year.</p>
<p>Q:
And then how did you---you came to America after that?<br><br>Ye:
Yes. And then I came to America to continue my education. I felt that
in Panama it’s, it’s so, I have all my family there, but,
ah, I try and look for something more than that, and Panama is a
small country, and opportunities there are limited. I would say, um,
so I wanted to, higher education, you know, and I wanted to go to
college, so I came here to attend college, and try to learn something
else.</p>
<p>
Q: Where was that? Where was the university that you went
to?<br><br>Ye: I went to City College, CUNY. You know, City
University of New York.</p>
<p>Q:
Why did you choose that school? Why did you choose New York City?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, I think New York City is more diverse, in certain term of
population, in term of language, and I, I love ah different, learn
different kind of languages, so I think New York will provide me the
opportunity to meet others, non-Hispanic speaking, Spanish-speaking,
or non-Chinese-speaking classmate or student, so that’s why I
chose New York.</p>
<p>Q:
And did you learn any English in Panama at this time?<br><br>Ye:
Not really. Actually, I have studied some English, but not like you
can have a basic conversation. You probably know some words, English
words, but because that environment did not provide the opportunity
to practice, and so it is kind of hard to say I, I know English. I
probably know some words, but not really English.</p>
<p>Q:
So you’re nineteen years old, and you came to New York City
speaking Chinese and Spanish and very, very little English, and you
started university on your own.</p>
<p>Ye:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
That difficult?</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, it is very difficult. Actually when I came and I went to
enroll in college right away, it happened that college in this kind
of, because of English level, it’s kind of very far behind, and
I felt that if I go to college in that moment it probably going to
waste a lot of money, um, because you’re foreign student, and
you have to pay double---you have to waste a lot of money to just
learn ESL (English as a Second Language) in college. So I decided to
go to a high school first, and to learn some English, and so I ended
up in high school again, not just learning English, but
I took other subjects, and I graduated from high
school in two year. And after that, and I went to college. So I have
two year preparation before I go.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you feel strange, as a nineteen-year-old in high school?
Although you look young, I think you look young for your age.</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah. Well, it’s kind of strange, yeah. But, the high school I
went is the Lower East Side Preparatory High School, they only take
student seventeen and up, and with junior high or high school
graduate diploma, and so they can help you to adjust in this
community environment, so it kind of make it easier on me. A lot of
those students I know is from different part of the world, and their
age is probably seventeen, eighteen. It’s not much younger than
me, so I, I feel um, comfortable being part of that school.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you have any dreams of coming to America? What, what did you
want to be?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, you know, in nineteen years I don’t really have much
dream except that you want to, um, get yourself little bit more
knowledge, get yourself some more higher education. And I don’t
really know at that time where I will be ten year later or what I
will end up doing ten year later, but all I know that I need to go to
college and finish college and so that I can have more opportunity.
But what kind of opportunity, I don’t know.</p>
<p>Q:
Your parents [coughs] excuse me, your parents ever give you
suggestions, or any pressure to become anything in particular?</p>
<p>Ye:
Not really. My parent themselves are uneducated people. In China, my
mom never attended school. She is illiterate. And my father, I think
he only attended up to second grade. So they themselves don’t
have the opportunity to attend school, and that’s something
that also help me to understand how education is, can help, when I
say it’s important. They don’t really give me any
pressure that you have to be lawyer or doctor or anything like that,
but just that, if you want to study, you go study, and as long as
they don’t stop me, then that’s support already.</p>
<p>
Q: So who did you live with in New York City, you come here
by yourself.</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, I, I come here and I have friends. I live with my, my friends,
and I stay here and I, I, go to school, and it’s not like I
have a base here, because as you know, students come here all by
themselves.
</p>
<p>Q:
Did you live in Chinatown?</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, actually when I came here I lived in Chinatown. Yeah, I lived
in Christie Street, Christie and Grand Street.
</p>
<p>Q:
So this is, what year are we talking about, by the time you arrived?</p>
<p>Ye:
I guess 1989, yeah. It’s a long time ago.</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah, so Chinatown was a very different place then. Were you, were
you scared coming here? What, what, did you think about Chinatown?</p>
<p>YE:
Well, in that time, here, in Chinatown very different compared right
now. In that time, actually now, in the late ‘80s, and early
‘90s, there a lot of gangs in Chinatown, and you have seen a
lot of young people stand on the corner as a group, and pretty,
pretty scary at that time. And I do feel that Chinatown is like a
cemetery in that moment because there is so much killing and robbery,
and the young people seem they don’t have motivation to go to
school and do better, and I just feel that they have no future.
</p>
<p>So
cemetery is the word I keep inside in my mind at that time, that
Chinatown don’t really have much hope, if they don’t
change.</p>
<p><br>Q:
But as a young man here alone, that’s often how a lot of young
men join gangs because they’re very alone and they don’t
have a family, and they don’t have support. How come you were
not attracted to join a gang?<br>
<br>YE:
Well, actually, I, I thought about it, actually when I was in
Panama, I was, was not a straight-A student as well, I kind of live
in the very poor, ah, neighborhood, and so it’s very
complicated, and there are a lot of gangs that live in that
neighborhood, but then when I come to America my aim, my goal is to
have better education and better equip myself. But I think that the
best thing is that before I came, I become a Christian. This has a
lot to do with your question. So when I came to America I already
came with that Christian faith, and that’s---I read Bible, it
teach you, you know, how to be good, no killing, no harming other
people, you have to help people, and so I also go to church in
Chinatown.
</p>
<p>And
I think it make a difference, because the church community kind of
tell me what is good. And, but of course, all my classmate, or
schoolmate in the community tell me what is bad. So I, I have a
choice. So this way I know what is good and I know what is bad, and I
was able to choose between good and bad, and so I choose good, rather
than join a gang.</p>
<p>Q:
Is your family Christian also?</p>
<p>YE:
Ah, no, actually, my parents, sister and brother, they’re not
Christian. But some of my niece or nephew, after I become Christian,
I share the gospel with them so they become Christian.</p>
<p>Q:
At the time you grew up in China, religion is not really, ah, you
can’t practice it in public so much, so did you get a lot of
your views on Christianity during your time in Panama?</p>
<p>YE:
Actually, yeah, in China, I don’t really know much about
religion, because as I said, only thirteen years old, and all my
parents do is to worship their ancestor with incenses and from time
to time---But when I went to Panama, is, this is free country, since
the religion is Catholic-based, religious country, and I see my
neighbors go to church, and like, every Sunday, and I start having
curiosity in the beginning and say, why they go to church and dress
out all nice and go to church, and ---So I start kind of questioning
them, what is the benefit going to church? And so they kind of
explain to me, that, um, well, one, one thing that they said was that
you can marry in the
church, and with a
nice gown and dress up.
</p>
<p>So
that’s the whole idea that started as a whole. One day if I
want to get married in the church, I have to be in the church. So
that’s how I started going to the church, with my neighbors,
with that mentality, hopefully marry in the church one day. Um, not
very particular how a religion is focused or anything like that.
After I’d gone for a couple of year, and I realized church is
more than that. That they tell you how to behave as a moral
character, and more moral person, and that really have a lot impact
on me.</p>
<p>Q:
So you’re saying by the time you came here, because of your
religious faith, you came here with much more of a, um, a grounding
in yourself, and that you, you were motivated to study and to do
good, and that steered you out of trouble. You didn’t want to
join a gang, by the time you got to---</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, I, I, definitely say that that is true. I know that as far as
my friend, that they leave school, and they drop out, and they don’t
want to continue, because there’s no mental support from their
parents or from their family. But to me, I don’t have support
from my parent or my family as well, but I do have support from the
church, um, we call them brother and sister and they encourage me,
and when I am down, when I needed help, they kind of encourage me and
help me out.</p>
<p>And
I think it’s, it’s my faith that can help me keep going,
because really it’s study two year English and you go to
college, it’s very, very difficult in terms of that you have
to, really check every word in the Chinese and English dictionary.
So, say if a native American student spend two hours studying, I
probably have to spend six hours studying because of my language and
limitation.</p>
<p>But
because of my faith, and because of Christianity and believing in
God, I always pray, and every time I have exam, I pray, and whenever
I encounter difficulties, I pray, and pray God to help me, and that
really help me a lot. And when I have struggle, and encounter some
difficult situation in life, and I also depend on God to help me. So
that really is, is that energy behind my
life,
and that help me to keep going and keep moving on.</p>
<p>Q:
And what did you study at CUNY ?</p>
<p>Ye:
I studied psychology, ‘cause I want to know a little bit more
about myself. I find myself like a mystery. Sometime I don’t
really understand why you think that way, or, why you make that kind
of decision. So I really want to discover a little bit about me, and
so, what---it’s why I am who I am, and wanted to learn a little
bit about me.
</p>
<p>That’s
how it started, but after I study for awhile and I kind of realize
actually psychology not can, not only can help me, but can help other
people too, and so that’s why I stick with the subject and
graduated with that major.</p>
<p>Q:
And after four years at CUNY, what was your first job?<br><br>Ye:
Actually, a little bit before I graduated, I applied for a job in
Chinatown YMCA, just to work as case planner in the preventive
program, which is to help family who got in trouble with ACS ,
Administration for Children’s Service, and the Center for
Children’s Services, or a family that have a problem with the
family courts, or families that are at risk, or their kid had dropped
out, or their kid is in borderline, they try to join the gang or stay
in school.</p>
<p>So
that is kind of something that I, I interested in, because I was
there a couple of years ago, and now, seeing other kid, not going to
school, wandering on the street. And I just want to help them, and
help them to understand life has more than just have fun on the
street. You can do something more than that. And helping the family
to stick together, work together. So I started that, as, as a um,
preventative case planner in Chinatown YMCA.</p>
<p>Q:
I know that you didn’t come to New York as an immigrant, but
in many ways you are an immigrant in America, but yet you don’t
seem very typical because most immigrants come here and they, they
work hard, they study hard and they want to make lots of money. Why,
what do you think is in you that you want to be a social worker, as
you said, at very young, also, to want
to
give back so early.
</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, I think it’s a very good question. You’re right. A
lot of immigrant come here and then just want to study something that
will make money, like finance or computer science, or electrical
engineering. I think it’s very normal because they came from a
very restricted, poor environment. But myself, also I came from that
kind of environment, poor, restricted, and when I come to America I
just wanted to learn more and educate myself more.
</p>
<p>But
at the same time, behind my, my mind, I also want to be rich. I
wanted to be making money too. But because going to church, and I see
that people in the church help others freely, unconditionally,
without any conditions. That, because they help you it’s n to
because you will pay them, they help you because you need it. And
they feel good about helping others, and also what the Bible teach
you. It’s rather, it’s better giving than receiving. And
so that also have something to do with my religion background, and
that really taught me that money is not everything, but helping
people and make people happy, yourself will be happy as well. And
some, something money cannot buy, which is happiness.</p>
<p>So
I, I kind of realized that helping people and not really making a lot
of money, but my heart and my life I feel rewarded, or awarded,
because seeing a family broken, and now it’s the repaired and
all together again, and I think that is more, more than money can
buy. And that’s why I, I feel good just to do what I do.</p>
<p>Q:
And your family supports you, in doing this? They never give you
pressure to send us lots of money? Send home lots of money? Take us
out of China?<br><br>Ye: No, actually my family never gave me any
pressure, because they all already out of China. I have brother in
Panama, brother, brother and sister in Panama, I have brother in
Spain, and I have a sister in Florida. They’re all over the
place. They’re all out of China. Beside my father, my father
don’t want to go out. He like his old hometown. But still I
think it’s good for him, he know his neighbors and everything,
and we respect that, we respect his decision, so really I have no
pressure, they ask me for money or anything like that, because I’m
the youngest, so they
don’t
really expect me too much. You get it? I think that’s a, a good
deal. You could have older brother, older sister, and they all
helping the parents, supporting the parents, and I’m sort of
like burden-free, you know?</p>
<p>Q:
So your first job out of school was at the YMCA in Chinatown, where
you worked mainly with young people you said?<br><br>Ye: Primarily
it was with family that have children, that like I say have, either
have problem with the ACS, because of cultural differences and
language barrier, they discipline their child and trigger the school
or counselor to call Administration for Children’s Service,
because they think that there’s a risk of child abuse and child
neglect, and so that’s (how) we’re involved, and most of
our case come from ACS, referred by ACS, and the criteria is that
you, you have to have children in your home, and we work with them,
because that’s what preventive mean, to work with family,
family that have young children.</p>
<p>Q:
Well, give us an example of a case, ‘cause I, as a Chinese
growing up in America I know that there is a lot of, sometimes
misunderstandings between the way Americans interpret what is abuse
in the Chinese families. So give us something that you saw a lot that
perhaps the way Chinese parents discipline their kids, but American
teachers may think the kids are being abused at home.</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, I, I think one example is in China, I also came from China,
and I also come from, I was brought up by parent, and I know in
China, when your parent beat you, is because they love you. They
correct you because they care about you. That’s the Chinese
immigrant’s mentality and philosophy. And there’s just no
such law that you hit your child and you are punished and someone
will call the police or call the ACS. In China there’s no such,
they don’t have that system yet in that time. It mean that your
children is under your authority, and that your responsibility, if
you don’t discipline them, and in the future they become a bad
person in society, then the fault is in the parent, so that’s
why the parent will hit them or discipline them. And when you say,
hit that mean physical punishment, like that, they probably hit them
with a bamboo stick, and try to correct them, and try to help them
to, to avoid doing, continue doing
bad
things.
</p>
<p>For
example, like, there’s a family that come to America, and one
of the child does not want to go to school, because they think school
is too hard, too difficult, and they don’t speak the language,
and they constantly make fun of him. And so he decide not to go to
school. So the father, knowing that child not going to school is very
young, he is only thirteen years old, if not going to school have no
future here in America. You don’t speak their language, you
don’t speak English, you’re not going to school, and
that’s against the law as well. So of course this law part they
might not understand, but they do understand that they want and hope
the child can go to school and learn English and have a better life,
rather than work hard like them in factory or in the restaurant, and
they want the child to do something better than that.
</p>
<p>But
that child not going to school, for the father will discipline the
child in the sense that he sort of hit the child, smack the child,
and so of course the child, report it, because his father’s---because
he’s talking a friend, the friend tell the teacher, and the
teacher call ACS, so ACS come and they want to remove the child, but
then that’s how we intervene and try to provide service to this
family and try to understand what had happened. And so, because we
provide the language, translation to the ACS worker, and we got a lot
of ACS worker don’t really speak Chinese. And we talk about
like five, six years ago, and still uncommon for Asian to get into
ACS to work.</p>
<p>So,
and we help them to understand the culture differences, and the
father want to help the child, but then the law says you hit your
child, it’s wrong, and that’s why we want to remove your
child, and so that’s how end up in the ACS system, because
someone reported the incident to the ACS. Which I think is, you know,
each country have their own law, and each have, have their own rule.
Um, the country that they’re living, right here in U.S., have
the law to protect the children, of course they have the right to do
what they have to do, but in terms of the parent, they don’t
really understand the law, so what’s missing, is the education
component to the parent. So that’s where we step in to educate,
like what we call parenting skill, or <b>(?)</b> parenting skill
training. Try to educate parent, what, the way that they deal with
their children in China is not going to work in
America, and if you use the same style, strategy, a way to discipline
your child, and here in America you will get into trouble with the
law.
</p>
<p>And
that’s how this family start understanding and what that meant,
so they need, they have corrected the action, and they say that
understand, we care about our child, we love our son, but physical
discipline our child is against the law, and so they don’t want
to do it again. And they want us to provide service to the family,
talk to the parent, talk to the kid, and try to educate both side
about where they come from, and it’s in the parent expectation
and the kid’s struggle. So because the communication, they not
going through, so parent do not really understand the child have so
much pressure and have so much trouble, and the school tried to
communicate, tried to understand. When the parent, just see the child
not going to school is wrong. So it’s a matter of
communication, and that’s one of the example cases.
</p>
<p>Classic,
because a lot of family even now a days, still have that problem. You
see, this year thousands of new immigrant come into this community,
but there’s no education going on every day, and so people need
to be educated to solve this problem.
</p>
<p><br>Q:
Do you think there’s a big difference in, say, an immigrant
family comes to a place like Chinatown, as opposed to more outside in
a suburb, where there’s not a big Chinese community? Is it
easier for them to assimilate into American life, coming to a place
like Chinatown first?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, from my experience, I think Chinatown sort of is the first
stepping stone, it, it mean it will be easier for them to adjust,
because the community speak the language, and when they go to do
shopping, they could shop the food that they want, and find the
Chinese food, and also in terms of transportation, it’s
limited, instead in Chinatown, you can just walk, in walking
distance. And so they can adjust a little bit better.</p>
<p><br>In
terms of kid who going to school, they have, let’s say
bilingual or ESL (English as a Second Language) classes, that will
help the kid to catch up even though they don’t speak
English when they come in, and that will help them to
learn faster in a sense. But there’s also one problem living
in, let’s say, a community like New York City, in Chinatown, is
that housing is an issue. There are limited housing. More and more
people come, but the building pretty much stay the same, and so,
where do people go, just pack into different family. So in terms of
like, one apartment, you have one family of four members, now,
because your aunt migrated and have no other place to live, then you
just pack into that family, and so now you have, let’s say,
eight members living in two bedroom apartment, it’s an
overcrowded situation. So that’s the only disadvantage.</p>
<p><br>But
going to out of state, they say, you know, Chinese go out of state
because they see New York City is <i>the</i> state, and what is
outside New York City is out of state. And as you know the word
“China,” China is the center of the country, or central
country. Everything else outside of China is foreign, it, you know,
foreign country. So at the same time, our experience that, if an
immigrant come to the U.S. and right away they, say move to a suburb,
they will have a much harder time to adjust, first as you know some
of the suburb like New Jersey or Connecticut, you want to go to
supermarket, buy, buy grocery, if you don’t live next to a
supermarket, you have to drive.
</p>
<p>So
a lot of immigrants they don’t have driver’s license,
they don’t even speak the English to go and test, take a test
and get a driver’s license. And driving a car is sometime
challenging for just a peasant from China, not even know probably how
to ride a bicycle and then now you ask them to drive a car. And for
kids, trying to get them in school, there is let’s say,
majority of them, let’s say, let’s say, Caucasian, I
mean, Caucasian, and also this is a difficulty because not every
school have the ESL program or bilingual program, and so, and if they
migrate here and then jump into school, I think it’s kind of
hard, and then myself, I come, I went to Panama, I jump into school,
and then guess what, I have to withdraw, and stay out for a year and
a half, try to learn the language and then I go to school. It’s
a similar experience. A lot of those family that I know is that they
leave their kid behind in New York City, they go to work in out of
state because of job scarcity, limited job, so they left the kid
behind, with family, or sometime friends, and they go out to work and
support the family.</p>
<p>
But why they don’t take their children with them, when
I ask them, because it’s hard for the children to go to school
there, because the system, the school system where they have. And so
it’s very, very difficult. It challenging for the family.
Especially in Chinatown. The family, immigrant family that come here,
they face many, many different kind of challenges.</p>
<p><br>Q:
So from what you see, say, the percentage of immigrants that come to
Chinatown, how many of them really stay here long term, or is it once
they get the language and work skills, do they move out?<br><br>Ye:
Well, from, like I say, from what I have seen for the past ten or
fifteen year in Chinatown, ‘cause I’ve been here a long
time, almost fifteen years. And they have a lot of change in
Chinatown, in terms of, let’s said, fifteen years ago, if you,
you know Chinatown, pretty much Chinatown is occupied by the
Toisanese and Cantonese, you go to the vegetable stand, stand to buy
vegetable, you have to speak Cantonese. If you don’t speak
Cantonese, you have a hard time to buy a vegetable, because they
don’t understand you, and then you don’t understand them.
</p>
<p>But
ten years later, things have changed. The whole community dynamic in
Chinatown have changed. If people understand the structure of
Chinatown. Pretty much, there’s a group, a fast-growing group,
which is the Fujianese community. They come in very, very quickly,
and they occupy half of Chinatown from let’s say east of
Bowery, and let’s say south of Houston, and let’s say
north of Catherine. All that section, and primarily the Fujianese
come in, and a lot of the Toisanese or Cantonese, they kind of move
out because of housing price are getting higher and higher because
demand get higher, the housing price get higher.
</p>
<p>So
a lot of people who are here a little bit longer, they need to move
out, either move to Connecticut, or New Jersey, or Brooklyn, some are
in Queens, and at this time there’s some people start moving to
Staten Island. You need, this is like I say, this is first stepping
stone for immigrants. When I was in high school, this was, fifteen
years ago, a Chinese teacher already say, if you can make it, you
probably not living in Chinatown at this time. Meaning that if you
have the English skill, you have driver license, you have some money,
and you
probably move out to the suburb
of Connecticut or New Jersey, or some other, like Brooklyn, Flushing.
You don’t have to stick in Chinatown, because with the same
amount of money, paying rent, example, you can get a three-bedroom
apartment for the same amount of money, and you can only get maybe,
say, a one-bedroom apartment in Chinatown. So why do you want to stay
in Chinatown?<br><br>Q: So then how do the new immigrants afford to
live in Chinatown if you’re saying Chinatown is so
expensive?<br><br>Ye: That’s the problem, because in
Chinatown, the price so expensive that people cannot afford it,
that’s why they have to share their apartment. It’s not
that they want to, but because of the economic situation, or the
price of the apartment is so expensive, one family simply cannot
afford it. As an example, a two-bedroom apartment in Chinatown,
easily you have to pay one thousand, five hundred or one thousand,
eight hundred dollars. A two-bedroom apartment in Chinatown. A family
of four, let’s say, father and mother, both are working, and
children going to school. So father work in a restaurant. Mother work
in a factory. You know a factory how much you can make. Sometime as
you have work to do, you make like forty dollars, or sometime eighty
dollars if the garment is good, easy to work with. But sometime when
the garment is hard, or there is not many work to do, you probably
earn twenty dollars a day, and sometimes a day you had earned ten
dollars, when there is no, no job.
</p>
<p>So
it kind of hard for a family to just make enough money to pay the
rent. Forget about the food and other expenses. So there is no way
for them to do that, so they divide up an apartment and say, two
bedrooms, and they rent out one bedroom, and share the living room,
the kitchen, with another family, and so they co-share nine hundred
each, example. Each family pay nine hundred dollars. So they can
barely survive in a sense. So that all four member of the family has
to pack into a one-bedroom apartment. There’s no privacy, you
know, for that family. It’s a very, very difficult situation,
and we have seen many, many family have to do that.
</p>
<p>But
if you’re single, then, of course, one bedroom apartment, let’s
say two bedroom
apartment, easily you
can, well, they will, rent it out for eight people, ten people to
share, a two-bedroom apartment, so they will have all the bunk bed
all over the place. If people know Chinatown well, they know that. So
they rent, not by bedroom but by bed space. So that’s how they
can pay the rent.</p>
<p><br>Q:
Now why, why is the Fujianese in particular, in the last ten years
or so, so attracted to New York? Do they go to other places in
America? Do they go to other countries, or do they leave China and
New York is the top destination that they want to go to?</p>
<p><br>Ye:
Well, in 1994, the State Department estimate that they have a
hundred thousand Fukienese in the U.S., and New York, Chinatown is
the prime location. That’s the first choice for all the
Fukienese. And so, at that time, in 1994, and this is the time up to
the Golden Venture incident, and that’s how the government
officials start paying attention to this population. And before that,
they don’t really give too much attention unless the local
government official, the city or police say that this community have
a lot of gain and all that.
</p>
<p>But
1994, they estimate a hundred thousand in the U.S., and most of them
are in New York City, so this is the first choice, and remember we’re
saying, whatever state outside of New York City, they call them out
of state. So New York is the home base for the Fukienese. As you can
see, East Broadway, that ‘Yidonglo,’ that east mall of
east Broadway, eighty-eight east Broadway, that’s at the root
of this community, the tree of this community. So most of them when
they come, first they come here and see all the job, ah, say, office,
that help people look for job, and help people to, um, let’s
say, go to different places, you have bus stations and everything.
</p>
<p>Of
course, ten years ago, this not there. Not many. But still, they have
large association here in New York City, a lot of Fukienese
association, and so this is the prime, prime location for them. When
they first, when they come in, first stepping stone.
</p>
<p>And
some people do go out of New York City, because there is not, not
enough jobs in New York City for them. And most of the men, the
Fukienese men are restaurant worker, and most
of the lady are garment worker, so a lot of the couple, if
they come in as a couple, they probably have to spread out, so the
father will go out or stay to work, and come home once a week or
twice a week, depends how far or how close you work. If you work far
away in Tennessee or Ohio, you probably come home once a month or
twice a month, so it depends.</p>
<p><br>People
do go out because, no job. Especially after 9-11, a lot of more
people move out of New York City, because job scarcity. There’s
no, no, not much work. The garment factory, a lot of them closed
down, so then they packed their whole family and moved to out of
state or left the children behind and the wife also joined the
husband and go to work in a restaurant.</p>
<p>Q:
I have the impression, I think a lot of people have the impression
that the Fujianese community tends to be a bit of a closed community.
If you are not Fujianese, if you don’t speak the dialect, it’s
very hard to get in there. Is that true? And because of that, are
they, would you say they are more, ah, unified, than say the
Cantonese or the other Mandarin speakers in Chinatown?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, I think that is true. Fujianese itself is a very unique
community and unique population. If you know the history of Fujian,
even back to China, a thousand years ago, they themselves have their
own community and the geography of Fujian is like a, like a pot or a
wok, you know, big, wide, everything, with sea, access to ocean, they
have river, and they have farmland. They themselves is already in the
valley of the sea and the mountain. So that community is very close
because they speak Fujianese and that’s a daily language that
it was, beside going to school and children have to learn the
national language which was Mandarin.</p>
<p>And
the village and the home, they all speaking Fujianese. And plus
Fujianese, the way they come to America also contribute to why they
have to stay close. Because a lot of Fujianes, in the early ‘80s,
some they of course migrate as immigrant, but many of them migrate
here undocumented, in a sense without proper document come here. So
there is a lot of distrust with the government, even in Fujian, when
you’re from China as a country. And there’s a lot of
trust issue, you know, between government and ordinary peasant family
or citizen. And it’s very difficult for them when they come
here, they don’t know who they should trust.
Government certainly is the last place that they want
to go because the experience that they have with the Chinese
government.</p>
<p>But
then, going to other non-Fujianese, they don’t speak the
language. It’s kind of hard for you to go, let’s say to a
vegetable stand, to buy vegetable, to a Cantonese vegetable stand to
buy a vegetable, if you only speak Mandarin or Fukienese. They
probably not going to sell it to you. And that’s why, some I
have seen in the past, when I walk in the street, people talking
Mandarin, and want to buy that vegetable, it’s oh---you go to
other, other store, they will never sell to you. Because they cannot
communicate. So it’s that, it’s not that they have a very
close, close community. It’s just that they don’t want
to, don’t have the chance to explore around, and they don’t
really know what’s out there.</p>
<p>As
an example, a lot of the Fukienese are illiterate and they’re
not educated. A lot of them do not even know how to write their
names. I have been working with this Fujianese population since, like
I said, since I graduate from from college in 1996, and I have a lot
of Fujianese client, and then later on, I moved to another agency,
which is this one, a Lutheran agency. And primarily our clients are
Fujianese, so I kind of know them a little more. And myself is not a
Fujianese, but I am able to work with them, because I sort of
understand their culture, understand their struggle, and not
understanding their language base, is something is a disadvantage,
but they do see you as a individual, want to help them. When they see
that, they certainly open up to you.
</p>
<p>A
lot of time, I think the community they say, “Well the
Fujianese is very close, therefore we can’t help them.”
It’s like, “I don’t want to touch it, this problem
is too big.” But if you really look hard and really look
through it, there are lots of thing you can do, even though you are
not Fujianese. And even the Fujianese themselves have a lot of
mistrust issue, and they don’t just open up to anyone.</p>
<p>Q:
You think they mistrust the Cantonese? The other Chinese people, not
just, say, American government and law and all that, that they don’t
understand, but how about just other Chinese in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, I don’t think it’s a mistrust issue in the same
way with the Cantonese. Ah, in terms of government, it’s really
that’s an issue, because like I say, they come from different
system, a government system. But in terms of the Cantonese, I would
say, it’s, it’s a, they would see as a struggle, a
competition. Maybe you remember back like ten years ago, like I said,
or we said, Chinatown pretty much is occupied, fifteen years ago, by
the Toisanese, the Cantonese, and there are factories all over the
place, and there are a lot of business, and the Cantonese come in,
they work, they earn a lot of money. Each week, they can earn a
couple of hundred dollar, a thousand dollars, and depending on what
kind of garment they’re working with. But for the past ten or
fifteen years, there are more and more Fujianese come in, and the pie
is that size, one size, but then you have more and more people come
and try to share the job, that job market pie, that job pie, and then
in this sort of work environment have to create some tension, if you
know how the factory system works, that you work faster, you can earn
more money, and you can work more garment. Or you cannot work fast,
then if you have to work slow, then it’s how much hour you can
work.<br><br>So the Fukienese come in, they come in with a lot of,
they say, they invariably they owe people money the way they came,
they owe money to other people, owe it to their family, or to their
relative, or to their friend, and so they definitely want to work
harder. So in terms of working nine to five, they probably work eight
to eight. So that has created a lot of tension between the Cantonese
and the Fujianese, and often if you go to the factory you’ll
hear that, “Oh, the Fukienese taking our job, oh the Fukienese
is ah, making us make less money.” Because some Fukienese, and
remember ten years ago from paper you will see that Fukienese women
have to stay in the factory overnight to work, and they only sleep
three or four hour. It’s not that they wanted to. A lot of
time, because the boss required them to finish the work. And they
also wanted to make more money. And so, both parties probably
contributed to it---But the Cantonese, there is no way for them to
stay overnight or work twelve, fourteen hour. And they’re a bit
harder, because the way they came, because most of the Cantonese come
as a immigrant, with status---</p>
<p>Q:
From Hong Kong---</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Ye:
---From Hong Kong, or Toisan area. But a lot of the Fujianese they
come without status, and when they come in, they already owe people a
couple, let’s say, twenty or thirty thousand dollars, and they
have to pay it back, and make them work harder. And it makes sense.</p>
<p>So
at that it really create a lot of conflict in the community itself
still have this kind of issue.</p>
<p>Q:
You think part of, maybe there’s a little bit of resentment
towards the Fujianese community because they have brought the prices
down in a certain way, by creating so much more competition, like
they can probably work cheaper than say, some, you know, as you said
a person from Hong Kong or Toisan years ago, and because of that
they, they’ve created so much more competition in Chinatown,
that, that, everything is cheaper. And then the other communities
have a little bit of resentment towards the Fujianese community for
doing that, like for the buses for example, it’s so cheap, and
that has created a lot of wars, and rivalries in Chinatown, and a lot
of those are owned by the Fujianese community, correct?</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, I think resentment probably is, you know, is the word, in a
sense, with others in Chinese community, between the Fujianese and,
you know, the Cantonese-speaking community. It need, in terms of
pricing in the factory, because, like I said, I been here fifteen
years and I’ve seen all this changing, and I care about this
community, and, and I go to church, I know a lots of different kind
of people, and they all share about what happened in the workplace in
their community. So I learned a lot about these two community, and
not just seeing, but also hearing, and what the people do, and also,
seven years ago, I started working with this community and kind of
realized that the problem even deeper.</p>
<p>Resentment
certainly is the key word here. Because, like I say, if a factory
owner can have someone work on this hundred piece of garment, for,
let’s say for forty dollars, why I have to pay the Cantonese
sixty dollars? So of course they would choose, let’s say,
Fujianese to work for forty dollars. So that is a issue, like I said,
job, um, competition.
</p>
<p>But,
ah, let’s say the job market is competing, and the price is
going down, but the housing
also
competing, by going up. So, and so the resentment is that, we live
here, and we pay, let’s say, they, they Cantonese probably say,
you know, we pay six hundred dollar rent for two-bedroom apartment,
and now you Fujianese come in and now we have to pay eight hundred
because the landlord is raising the rent and want to, ah, kick them
out so they can rent to the Fukienese for higher price.</p>
<p><br>So
that is, is certainly is an issue. But I say, you know, the Fukienese
themselves do not really contribute to that, it’s not that they
asking for cheaper price, but they have no other way to earn money to
pay back their debt. Other than selling their labor force, that’s
their only way. And I think it’s a, in terms of the owner, and
they also play a role here. But like you, as an example, why does
U.S. industry, or U.S. business have moved to China, moved to India,
instead of keeping the business here in the U.S.? Because of costs.</p>
<p>In
China, you can do it you know, one dollar, yen, one, one, one, yen,
or one shoes, but here in the U.S., it’s like one dollar in
shoes, then that make a very difference, because usually U.S. dollar
and yen is, one U.S. dollar is equal eight yen, you know. So it make
a difference. So it all about business. But I guess, the community
also suffer because of that.</p>
<p>Q:
So tell us about your job today. You are the director?</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, Director of Immigrant Service.</p>
<p>Q:
Here at, ah---</p>
<p>Ye:
At New Life Center.</p>
<p>Q:
And what, what is---tell us about New Life Center. What is the
purpose of the center?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, ah, this Lutheran, ah, social service, New Life Center,
started a year and a half ago. Like, I, I, I, say a little bit about
September 11<sup>th</sup>. When September 11 happened, my main
office, like only two blocks away from World Trade Center, and part
of the airplane wingtips
that hit the
World Trade Center fall on our main office building, and so that
building have to close down. And then, the administrative personnel,
or staff moved to our office, and at that time we were located in
Christopher Street, Greenwich Village. So they moved to our office,
and then we have no choice, then we move to Brooklyn, for one year.</p>
<p><br>And
we stayed there, and there’s not much happen, and we keep doing
the work we’re doing, helping this Fukienese community in
different way. But more and more during that year we hear from our
client, hear from community leaders, hear from churches and hear from
the community, that they not really getting much help, or getting as
much aid from the September 11 relief, the benefit or help. Then at
that time, right after September 11, there are a lot, um, thing going
on, you have a mortgage rent assistance, for the people who have been
impacted and living in the zone, and you have people can apply for
September 11 health insurance, or get a September 11<sup>th</sup> ESL
class training, and you could get like three hundred dollars back
every week to help you learn English, or you’re out of job---</p>
<p>And
that help the family to pay rent or buy grocery. That, there are
money that is definitely is helping. And also when the ESL course is
done, you can go for, um, another seven week of vocational training,
to learn some real job skill beside government factory, or beside the
low, low skill work. They can go and learn some restaurant or other
skill.</p>
<p>But
it seemed that the Fujianese community not really understand what is
happening and don’t know what is out there. So when we ask, the
Safe Horizon, as, if you’re familiar with the system, Safe
Horizon is, is sort of the, the gate-keeper of the September 11 Fund.
If you want to access the September 11 program, or fund, you have to
go through Safe Horizon, the on-going recovery program workshop. So
when you work with that workshop, then you’ll get a white card,
and that white card have your name and your basic information. That
white card you can go and apply for health insurance, regardless
you’re documented or undocumented, and you also can enroll
yourself into ESL training classes, the vocational training classes.
But some when we asked them, how many of Fukienese after a year,
after one year really went through the workshop. Surprisingly, that,
from what we heard from the September 11---from the Safe Horizon
established that only a few Fukienese had gone through the workshop.</p>
<p>
<br>And I’m,, we’re very surprised, because this
community ahs been here for, for so long, and if the estimate of the
State Department is right, a hundred thousand already in 1994, and
each year you have another ten thousand coming in, and New York City
is the primary location that they start with, that they end up with.
So, if we just talking about half of the Fukienese, and, and, in New
York City, so from 1994, until 2002, and you already have like
eighteen thousand, and there’s a hundred and eighty thousand
Fukienese, but then half of them, let’s say in and out of New
York City, you have like ninety thousand, at least, ninety thousand.
Let’s say not all ninety thousand live in Manhattan Chinatown
area, but we’re talking about half of that again. You have
forty-five thousand Fukienese in Chinatown, and this is the closer
imm---</p>
<p><b>[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE (some chatter here): BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]</b></p>
<p>Q:
So you were saying that after September 11, the Fujianese community,
very, even though it’s a big community in Chinatown and one
that is so close to Ground Zero, you feel that it was alarming that
such a small percentage of people actually went ahead and applied for
911 relief funds.
</p>
<p>Now,
is it because, that, are the funds, or, a two-part question. Are the
funds available to everybody that, um, that qualifies, regardless of
your status, because you said that a lot of Fujianese came
undocumented. Is that part of what kept them away, ‘cause they
are afraid that if they go and apply, the government might come after
them because they are here illegally. Or, because they are so
isolated because of culture, because of language, or whatever reason,
that they are not aware, or they don’t know how to go and apply
for these things. I mean, what is the problem?</p>
<p>Q:
Well, I think you already said, the problem is related to the two
questions that you just asked. I was, I’ll address the um,
first question first.
</p>
<p>You
need---a lot of Fukienese are in, in the Chinese community
undocumented. But also a lot of them are documented, families are
here. But not just the undocumented Fukienese are
not getting the September 11<sup>th</sup> -related
service or benefit out there in the community. But those documented
families are not receiving either. So what---that is the question
that was start asking, calling community leaders, the community
itself, and also churches and people that we know. So, we kind of
realized that those undocumented in need are afraid that if they
apply the government will come after them.</p>
<p>Q:
Well, is that true? I mean, is the fund---</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, it’s not. Because, as you know, September 11<sup>th</sup>
Fund is set up beside the FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Act),
for MRI (?) program, you have to prove some sort of documentation.
But there are a lot of program or service out there they say the
September 11<sup>th</sup> Fund is contributed by, let’s say,
Red Cross, Salvation Army, by general public, like us, who contribute
thousand million dollars into the pool, to help the affected victim.
The money is not, let’s say, government, restricted money that
is related to the government. It’s for the people who need
help, regardless of your status of documented or undocumented.
Assuming you have, you qualify, assuming you need help, then they can
help you.
</p>
<p>But
the problem is, two things. One the, the undocumented people, not
being educated, what is out there and who qualify and what that will
do to them if they apply or not to apply. It seems that they have no
idea what is happening.</p>
<p><br>Two,
the same with the documented one. The documented one they don’t
really know what is available out there. And some people, they just
think that this is not for them. Because, if you know the Chinese
community structure, I think that is kind of related to your second
question. The first one is that they don’t know. The second
question is why they don’t know. Well, if you know the
community structure----</p>
<p>Here
in Chinatown we have several Chinese newspaper, and only one or two
of them are simplified Chinese. And most of them are traditional
Chinese character, when you see the newspaper. But if someone, let’s
say, for example, from Fujian. You from a country that has been
taught simplified Chinese. And now you come here and you buy a piece
of paper, in
traditional Chinese. It’s
like, ah, let’s say native English speaker try to read a
Hispanic paper. Can this person understand some of the words? Yeah,
like commercial, ‘comercial,’ television, ‘<b>television’</b>.
You can understand some of the words. But, do you think you can
really understand the whole newspaper, what I’m saying. Well,
no. Even the words look similar, and one or two words are the same.
</p>
<p>Q:
Is that because the two, the main papers are owned by Taiwanese and
Hong Kong, and, and those two places write in traditional forms?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, there’s a lot of information, saying you can go here to
apply this, you can go there to apply this, but the major, the three
major paper that we have, the World Journal, Tsing Tao, and Ming Pao,
you, you see it’s a traditional form of Chinese. But so,
Fukienese don’t really understand what is out there. In terms
of radio, you have 1480 (AM), and that’s a time when after 911,
1480 was started, twenty-four hour program. And they did a lot of
promotion, people contribute a lot of money to here and there, and
you can go apply benefit here and there. But it, for the Fukienese,
that’s a foreign language---</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Because they speak in Cantonese.</p>
<p>Ye:
Yeah, they’re talking in Cantonese, and that’s the only
twenty-four Chinese radio station that we have. So you can imagine a
Fukienese-speaking person, cannot read, cannot understand, cannot
communicate with other Cantonese community people. How, how do they
know? That’s one problem.</p>
<p><br>The
other problem is that, when we went to um, meet with the FEMA and the
New York Disaster Response Unit, and others, mainstream player about
the need of the Fukienese community, when we mentioned about, do you
know that the Fujianese community has not been served, or there is no
service available to them, they kind of surprised, why is that? We
have given so much money to the Chinese community-based organized to
serve them. Well, it’s simply the fact that when the Chinese
community-based organization, say, we will serve the Chinese
community if we can get money. But when they get the money, they,
yes, they
need serve the Chinese
population. But is it the entire Chinese population, or just portion
of the Chinese population? So when we, that’s how I met, one of
the staff that you mentioned, Charlie (Lai), at one of the meeting.
And what we’re asking is that, the Chinese community, is the
Fujianese community part of the Chinese community? Yes. Is the
Fujianese community also in the zone area? Yes. But how come they’re
not getting service? Well, some of those people from the Chinese
community, based on what this agency, well, they’re different,
because they don’t speak Cantonese.</p>
<p>Q:
But they do speak Mandarin?<br><br>Ye: Yeah, some of them speak
Mandarin. But if you look at the Chinatown community-based
organization’s structure, most of those Chinese community-based
organization are run by Cantonese, executive staff. Most of the staff
are Cantonese speaking. The field staff might speak Mandarin, but
when you asking do they speak Fukienese, oh, no, we just don’t
have Fukienese-speaking.</p>
<p>It’s
like, I’ll give you an example, and that’s, I talked to a
general. I know that September 11<sup>th</sup> Fund has given a <b>pot</b>
of money to one of the community-based organization, and now that
organization has given that, a portion of that money to local
Chinese-based organization. Chinese community-based organization. To
hire a couple of staff to build a team and try to serve the Chinese
community. So they hire new staff, and we asked how many of those
staff speak Fukienese. None. How many of the staff speak Mandarin?
Oh, two. And are you guys outreaching the Fujianese community? No.
Why is that? Oh, because their location is a little bit far west, but
the Fukienese is in the east of Chinatown.
</p>
<p>So
in the sense that, the community---I mean, I myself am Cantonese. I
have nothing against the Cantonese. But, just because I am Cantonese,
I can understand both language, I can understand what they say in the
Chinese radio, or from others, Cantonese staff, about the Fukienese
community. But the thing is that, if the money were given to them, to
serve the entire Chinese community, they should do some effort to
reach the entire Chinese community, not just portion of the Chinese
community. They’re screwing the Fukienese.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So
what happen the Fukienese that, if you have no staff who can speak
the language, or are able to communicate with the language they can
understand? There’s no way for them to understand. So, because
of that problem, being that the Chinese-based community organization,
not able to communicate with the Fukienese community, there is no
intensive outreach to the Fukienese community, and now we see that
there’s a gap, because one of the research studies done by
Asian-American Federation, ah, a couple of years ago, they reported
that it’s only, in the Fujianese community there is only 1.56
percent of the Fujianese have junior high or higher education degree.
So you can imagine there’s 98.46 percent, or 98.44 percent of
the Fujianese community, people in the community, have junior high or
less education, so it mean that a big chunk of them are illiterate.
So how can you communicate with illiterate, ah, people in the
community? By word of mouth.
</p>
<p>The
way that you can understand. So we saw this is huge gap. Even after a
year. A year later. September 11<sup>th</sup> , and we move from
Brooklyn to this building November of 2002. That’s where we
started. Because we saw the gap, and we move in, to this community,
and we wanted to try to fill the gap, in the sense that, we’ve
been working with the Fukienese community for seven, a couple of
years, we have their trust, and we have the relationship with them
already. And they don’t, and then too, for us, as a Chinese
community-based organization, because we are Lutheran. This is a
mainstream agency. But they know that we are helping them, and they
know that we’re church, faith-based organization, and they know
that we are here to help them, not to harm them.
</p>
<p>So
when we moved in, the first that we did is to create that flyer that
they, we give out to the people, it’s a simplified Chinese
flyers, with simplified Chinese characters, and with simple words,
that even low-education immigrant can understand, so try to tell them
who we are, what we intend to do, and what kind of service we can
provide to them. So that’s how the word get out to the
community, and then the Fukienese community start coming, a dozen of
them, two dozen of them.</p>
<p>We
propose, in one year, starting November 2002 to November of 2003, we
proposed to
serve one hundred families,
because we only got one small grant for the Lutheran Disaster
Response New York. So it’s called LDRNY. We got a small grant
to start this program, and we started with two staff. Just two staff.
And to help this community, and we have a Fukienese staff, primarily
do outreach education. And that’s how we started, and the
people come and within three month, and we already serve four hundred
client in three months, and by ninth month, we have served a
thousand, two hundred client. So it’s so far more what we
budgeted or to planned to serve. You know, you see the need of this
community is so, so big.</p>
<p>Q:
Now you’re, the church here serves everybody, not just
Fujianese.
</p>
<p>Ye:
Oh, yes. The church itself is a Cantonese-based church, and we, we,
ah, proposed to serve the Fujianese community with a grant that we
requested from LDRNY, because they allow the community-based
organization already serving the Cantonese community, already because
they speak the same language, they been serving them, that community
for a long time, but the Fujianese is simply, is still covered by
dust. It’s like a, September 11<sup>th</sup> dust still
covered this community. The people still don’t see the need of
the community, or even they see, probably they don’t really
care. So that’s why, when I talking to Charlie Lai about the
need of this community, he have the passion for that. I call them
“underserved community,” and Charlie Lai called, actually
probably “unserved community.” It’s so realistic,
and how come a year later, you have thousand, ten of thousand of
Cantonese already got a white card, already finished all those
training program, and already got all the help and money, mortgage
rental assistance---everything that they can apply, they already
apply. They even applying for, you know, purifier and air
conditioner, everything they can apply, they already apply. For the
Fukienese they still have no clue what is happening in the community.
So that’s why I call them ‘unserved community.’
</p>
<p>Q:
So it, it seems the main problem is language, here. That is, keeping
the Fujianese community isolated, and it seems to me, perhaps, that
they should not just be training to speak English, but maybe
Cantonese. Is that, has that ever been thought of, so that the
Fukienese can assimilate into Chinatown, a little bit more?
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Ye:
But you say, try to not teach them only English, but teach them----</p>
<p>Q:
---A little bit of Cantonese---</p>
<p>Ye:
Cantonese.</p>
<p>Q:
----So they can survive in Chinatown better.</p>
<p>Ye:
Right, but I ask you a question. In Chinatown itself, how many
Cantonese restaurant you have, or how many Fujianese restaurant you
have? If, like, you try to, they say, if entire U.S. move, population
move to China, and then you tell China, say, now you should learn
English, so that you can communicate with us, don’t you think
we should think the other way around? The people coming to Chinatown,
most of them are just worker, or business owner, but people who live
in Chinatown, majority of them are Fukienese. Think about it. Why do
we have to ask the Fukienese to learn Cantonese, to try to fit in,
why not the Cantonese try to learn Mandarin? We’re not even
asking them to learn Fukienese. Mandarin is the national language of
the</p>
<p>Q:
---Of China---</p>
<p>YE:
---China, which is the official language. Everybody should know, as
a citizen of, let’s say, Chinese, or if you call yourself,
Chinese-American, it might be a good idea to just learn Mandarin,
right, to help them. For immigrant coming in, like Fukienese, they
already struggle, try to survive, and now you’re asking them to
learn Cantonese to try to fit in. Now you’re asking a, monk to
give you some hair. It’s very, very, difficult. So I think the
community-based agency, they themselves have a mission to serve the
Chinese community. When you serve, as you try to come out, whatever
way you can, to help. Not to ask the people who come to you to help,
ask for help, then you have to do something before we help you, let’s
say if you want, like in buy your vegetable, example. If you want, if
you want to buy vegetable from me, you have to learn Cantonese. If
you don’t learn Cantonese, I’m not going
to sell you a vegetable. I think that’s, the
other way around. This is business, right? So the business owner,
just say, oh, if I want to do this business, I should learn Mandarin,
and so that I can have more customer.</p>
<p><br>So,
I think the mentality that, I mean the question that you ask,
probably allows those Cantonese community leaders probably thinking
the same. Why they don’t learn, ah, Cantonese. That’s the
same mentality, but that’s the problem, because the community
is so huge. You talk about four, let’s say, you know, minimum
instrument, you talk about forty-five thousand Fukienese, and you ask
all of them to try to learn Cantonese. Don’t you think that a
little bit tough? Yeah, it is tough. Instead of asking them to learn
about ways as a provider to learn the language and try to serve them.
</p>
<p>And
I think that’s the issue here, with this community, and I think
the resentment that we talk about before, that between this Cantonese
and the Fukienese community, that is still playing a big part of
that. And also the language barrier is one thing, but the Fukienese
community need, what do they need is education. If so many people are
illiterate, mean that the way they process information, it could be
very slow, or very uneasy. So when you try to explain to them, the
benefit that you apply, the September 11<sup>th</sup> benefit, is
not related to government, but they still think that it’s
related, then how can you help them to take the fear away? Simple,
you educate them and give them some concrete information. And say,
we, because we hire attorneys, immigration attorneys. And we ask
immigration attorney to explain to them, instead of say, just us, we
explain to them, so it take one of the level of fear away, but they
have another level in term of legal. In social matter, they
understand, well, this probably not going to affect me, even if I
apply, and it will help me and help my family. But in legal matter,
and how, how can it take that fear away, and if you come as a
professional, immigration attorney, and try to explain to them the
way the law works in America, then that really take the fear away.
</p>
<p>So
after they hear, from an attorney, their old fear gone, and then just
come in, and to apply. So because of the way they were approached,
and speaking the language that they understand, speaking the level
that they can understand, and giving the, getting the right people to
explain
to them, the Fukienese-speaking
staff, or immigration attorney, and so that people know they have
nothing to risk, because they do need help, their family is
decompensating, there is domestic violence, child abuse incidence is
growing higher and higher and more, because the husband and wife no
job, they stay at home. In the past they work, you see once a week,
you don’t fight, you know, everything is good. But now, no job,
you’re poor, you have limited resources, you see your child
every day, that create a lot of conflict, and not everyone know how
to resolve this kind of problem.</p>
<p>So,
by helping them to get some of the help from the September 11-related
system, actually relieves some of the family tension. And that we’re
seeing that as the need, and that’s why we come in to provide
this, try to fill the gap. And in our open house, like I say, the New
Life Center open house on December 12<sup>th</sup>, and there’s
hundred of community people from the community and from the city, and
from the federal, labor department, and other people came, and we
already said to all the public, we’re here not to compete, but
we’re here to try to fill the gap, we try to build a bridge, so
that the community-based, Chinese community-based organization can
use us as a bridge to reach this Fukienese community. And that’s
what we’re trying to do. And until now, we’re still doing
that, and we have referred hundreds of clients to the Chinese-based
community. And in some ways we screen them, they understand Mandarin.
They have staff in their agency who can speak Mandarin, and we’re
trying to refer them. But of course, if they don’t speak
Mandarin, you know, and they speak Fukienese, and those agency have
no Fukienese-speaking staff, why should we refer them, so that when
we try to help them, whatever way we can, with the limited resources.</p>
<p>Q:
Are you still being funded by any 911 money?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, after today, today is March 11<sup>th</sup>----</p>
<p>Q:
---Eleventh---</p>
<p>Ye:
Two thousand and four---</p>
<p>
Q: ---Four---</p>
<p>Ye:
---Um, we still get funded by September 11<sup>th</sup> Fund. We
understand that our program had been closed because limited funding
that have September 11<sup>th</sup> fund left. But since we started
New Life Center, and we served this Fujianese community, with that
small grant, grant of money from this LDNRY, is a private foundation,
is a Lutheran foundation as a matter of fact, that we started and we
sort of surpassed the number that we anticipated to serve in one
year, and we have presented this problem to the September 11<sup>th</sup>
Fund, and they also realized that this community is not being served,
I mean, as properly, I would say. So they started funding us since
last year, and so this year, when they asked us to, send them another
proposal, and which we did, and then they funded us again. And
because of that funding we’re able to continue to help the
underserved population.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you think there is not enough dialogue between the different
associations, organizations in Chinatown? Or is there not a leader
that is strong enough to lead this community?</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, I clearly can say from the political point of view and from
the community point of view, I think what we are lacking is that,
like you say a strong leader. I think it is a matter of unity. The
changes to Chinatown, you have, you probably have a couple of
population. One, the people from different borough come to work , and
you have lots of business owner, which involve this group, does not
live in Chinatown. But then you have lots of resident in Chinatown,
and, one, a big part of that restaurant is the Fujianese community.
But Fujianese immigrant community is, that is, so, so, new to this
country, they don’t even know what the law is. It’s kind
of hard for them to get into the politic arena, but a lot of
Cantonese have been here for so long they know what they can do to
voice out for the Chinese community. But a lot of time, our voice has
been split. You look at the history, how in Chinatown, we have
candidates who come to run for city councilman, or city councilwoman.
You have three candidates and try to spread the same amount of votes,
among this same community. But in the end, none of them win, so who
win? They say this time Ellen Garson win again. But from history, and
if you really talk about Chinese, Chinatown history, I think
ourselves, Chinese
have to reflect and
how to really think what is the best interest of the Chinatown. It’s
not what is the best interest of my self or my group. It’s the
entire Chinatown. So if we, if we, have small voices from here, from
there, from there, those, they politician first they will not hear
you. It’s true, the community if not working together, the
energy and the force, is limited.</p>
<p>So
if we have a, say strong leader in Chinese community. Let’s say
you have hundreds of associations in Chinatown, could we say,
Toisanese, Cantonese, Fukienese, or other, in northern part of China,
and you have CCBA, you have so many association, but you know, if
this organization united, but not just by name, united as a one
identity and listen to one voice, instead of just talking here and
there, you have a better chance in term of a political arena, in term
of how to put a community together.</p>
<p>Look,
Chinatown is a closer immigrant community to Ground Zero. But how
come their resources is so limited to come down to Chinatown, if you
really do a research study, compared to money that the, let’s
say the September 11<sup>th</sup> Fund have, the Salvation Army and
Red Cross receive. How, how many percent of that money really divert
to the Chinese community to rebuild Chinatown? We’ve taught so
many to rebuild Chinatown. But how much of the money really come into
Chinatown, to help our community, to help the people being affected,
impacted? If you look at the number is significantly smaller,
significantly small. Why is that?</p>
<p>Well,
because Chinatown is part of, I want to say part of lower east side.
From years, I mean, I would say as a Chinese, I would say it’s
part of lower east side in need, because each community have their
own small mountain, and each association, on top of that small
mountain, have their fire. But then this, small fires like is one
candle, you can not really make much difference, but if you imagine
you put all the small mountain together, you got a big mountain, and
you put all the small fire together, then you see this huge mountain
of fire. Don’t you think the whole Tri-State Area will see your
area is a fire? Right? World Trade Center got hit. The whole world
know. Why? Because it’s so tall, so famous, and it got hit. The
smoke goes sky high, high. And the whole world will see it. But
imagine if one building
in China get a
fire, maybe the people who live in Brooklyn have no idea, or people
who live in the east of Chinatown will have no idea that East
Broadway have a building that just burned down, right? So I think
it’s a matter of pulling together as one community and then
speak out for the community, but at this time, personally I feel that
we did not really speak out as one community, we just here and there,
and that’s why our community has not been served properly.</p>
<p>Q:
But we, what is the thing that you think can unite us, because it’s
from, it sounds like language does not unite us, there’s
all---from writing to speaking, is all over the place, so what is the
main thing that you think this community can agree on, to come
together on?</p>
<p>Ye:
As long as you identify yourselves, as a Chinese community, or as a
Chinese-American, with that word, “Chinese,” you already
have a base to start with. If you consider yourself Chinese, then you
can communicate in the sense that U.N. (United Nations). How come the
U.N. can function? Is it all the U.N. people, or the representative
of the U.N., speak the same language? No, they don’t speak the
same language, but they have the same mission. They all, together, as
a one identity, we’re the United Nations, we come from
different part of world, speak different language, but we’re
here as a one identity. And when you have meeting, you can use
translation. If you don’t, really, speak Fukienese, then you’re
Fukienese leader, I mean that, you’re a Fukienese leader, you
don’t speak Mandarin, then while someone speak Mandarin, you
can use ear prop and translation. All the Cantonese, they say, I
don’t speak Mandarin. Then, can, you know, translation.
</p>
<p>But
I think language can be conquered. If U.N. can conquer that, Chinese
community certainly have no problem, because you is talking about,
there’s probably a hundred and eight different dialects, and we
do a talk in here, probably less than ten dialects here, right?----</p>
<p>Q:
---Main ones.</p>
<p>YE:
---Main ones. So if you have ten different dialect, it’s not
that hard to conquer. But only thing the Chinese community have to
realize that, if we don’t reunite, we’re still going the
same, year after year, so look at, for the past
fifteen years, yeah, I see some progress in the Chinese community,
but there is not much have done. Just look at the traffic light down
Canal Street; you find the traffic run over a old lady, or old man,
because they walk too slow and trucks have to run over them so they
can get to Holland Tunnel. That problem has been presented for years.
Is there anything have done with that? Not really. Why not? Because
Chinatown itself is a land of no one. We voiced out to politicians.
And politicians, why I have to do this to you? What you have done for
me? When time of vote, how many voters contributed to me, to my
party? Oh, sorry, not many. Then, why are you asking?</p>
<p>Q:
So the problem is people, Chinese people don’t vote, so
therefore we don’t have political power in the city.</p>
<p>Ye:
It’s not that Chinese people don’t vote, it’s
that, that, people who know how to vote, and people who know what
votes mean, for the community, are not really working hard enough to
educate the community to vote. Like I say, we’re, we’re
living in the U.S., we have this voting rights. But you’re in
China, vote is something new. When you talk about, let’s have a
meeting of four hundred people, and talk about politics, you’re
probably in the next hour you end up in jail, right?<br><br>
</p>
<p>But
in U.S. it’s different. U.S., you can vote, you have the right
to vote, you have the voice out, either against your country, or
speak for your country, you could. But a lot of people are still,
even though they become a U.S. citizen, but they don’t know
what kind of duty and responsibility they have. In the past, say many
years ago, before you become a U.S. citizen, they even teach you the
duty and responsibility of a U.S. citizen, once you become a U.S.
citizen. But now the so, everything instant, just pass the test and
we give you the naturalization certificate, and now you’re a
U.S. citizen. But what about the duty and responsibility? If the
government is not doing that, then who will do that, and form the
shoulder of our community-based organization, or association?</p>
<p>But
if we’re not doing that enough, to make it voting day as a
community event day, people would not really know about it. A lot of
people, when voting day, do you think they know
this is the voting day, or today is the voting day? No, they
won’t know, no. Because they don’t read newspaper, they
can’t understand. But if you make it your effort, and try to go
out in the community and make noise about this, you have a better
chance. Because we look at the voting numbers, it’s pretty
slow---ah, pretty small. But we haven’t found more registered
voter than the actual voter come out.</p>
<p>Q:
You seem like a very passionate man who cares deeply about the
community. How about yourself? Have you thought of running for
something?<br><br>Ye: Well, you know, I, you know, I thought about
it, but like you know, like you mentioned when you started, you know,
I’m still young, there a lot of things to learn, and politics,
it’s, ah, something big. Because running politics you need a
different skill. Not just someone can speak and have the passion, you
can do it. You need to have to the right connection, the right
people, and know, know, the right people. Really know the big guys in
the community, so they can you know speak for you or support you.
Because otherwise to just go out there and say I’m here,
running. They’ll say, who are you, where you come from? Right?
It very, very true, because politics is money, money is politics, and
in I’m just an ordinary family father, and it’s kind of,
it will take me some time. You know, I wouldn’t say never,
never, but I just say that I am still learning, I am meeting people,
and now I’m, at this level I’m just a director, I’m
just meeting director-level people, but, meeting with the an
executive, and other, probably will take me some years. So. But I
know there a lot of people out there who already know the whole
system, who already know all the connection, and already know all the
big guy. Those people probably have a better chance. As long as we
pull together. We need to sit at one table and talk about the need of
the community and put down our own agenda, our own selfish agenda,
and what is best for the community is not what is best for me, or for
my wallet.</p>
<p>If
they don’t come with that kind of selfish agenda, certainly and
Chinatown have better chance and better hope.</p>
<p>Q:
Well, for someone who came, who left China at thirteen and then came
here at nineteen,
with no clear dreams
or ambition, I think you have found yourself in a place, um, that
you’ve done a lot for the community. Are you surprised, you
look back, the last fifteen years, and where you are now?
</p>
<p>Ye:
Well, actually, I’m very surprised, even though a lot of my
friends, my classmates, they also suprised, and how come you can come
so fast and so high? I guess the word is passion. I have passion for
the immigrant community because myself is a immigrant, and I’ve
gone through so many hard times, and once I got here, and like I say,
I called Chinatown it’s a cemetery, because I really see a lot
of young people dying every day and gangs fight and struggle, and
there’s lots of problems in Chinatown, and because my faith,
because my religion background, that really help me to understand
that humanity is not something selfish, you have to sacrifice. I
could go out and do business and probably make a decent amount of
money and go on vacation every six months, but I choose to stay in
the social work field.
</p>
<p>When
I look back, I really feel that the kind of reward that I’m
getting or I got is far more than money can buy, and it’s a
surprise thing for me. I mean, I got an example, I, I enter Hunter
Social Work School in the year 2000. I graduated in two and half
years later, and I did not pay a penny to get that degree, because I
get a scholarship from the Department of Health and Hygiene. And I
look back, there’s so many people in New York City competing
for that two, twenty slot, and I was one of them. How could I, can I
get it, and how do other people when they’re able? Very one
simple word: it’s because I care about the community, and I
have done a lot for the community, and the, the people who look at
that application also see that, and that someone can even do more if
they have the M.S.W. degree (Master’s of Social Work). So they
choose to, they give to me for free, and get this education.</p>
<p>So
that really encourage me, that whatever I have done, even though I am
not really get awarded in a sense, cash, but the system itself is
awarding me, and they say awarding, and they give some awards to me.
And I feel pretty good about that, and I’m so thankful that, in
New York City, actually, the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene
have recognized that, and I’m so, you know, proud of that as
well. And so that really is a way to encourage me to continue, that
one day, you know, when you need it and people will recognize you and
award you for what you have done.
</p>
<p>So,
yeah, it is a surprise. I never thought that I would come to today
and just thought I would also get more educated and I can do
something helpful that can help the people and help myself, but this
is definitely is a huge reward.</p>
<p>Q:
So, my last question, um, since you said when you came to Chinatown,
you see Chinatown as a cemetery. Are you optimistic that in your
lifetime this cemetery will be filled with, or alive with life rather
than, than, a graveyard? Do you think this can be done?
</p>
<p>YE:
I, you know, I’m a man of hope and a man of faith, I never
give up something when we still have a chance, and I think Chinatown
itself has a lot of potential, and Chinatown also have lots of
potential people and leaders. I do see that, that things have
changed, for the past fifteen year. Especially with the Giuliani
administration, because he wipe out all the gangs. Other gangster and
prosecute all of them, sort of kind of die, die out for a couple of
years, and have changed a little bit. It’s not that scary for
that era.
</p>
<p>But
thing, you know, change again. So what I really think that Chinatown,
if we really want to say you know, instead of cemetery become a
garden, it takes some hard work, and what this hard work mean is not
just probably for this generation from leaders, but for the second
generation immigrant leaders. Because if this generation cannot break
the wall, to sit down and really talk, ask the question of what is
best for our community and let’s work together regardless of
what is our personal opinion and personal agenda, if they cannot do
that, and I don’t think there’s much we can do, but we
just keep going as a way in, sometime get a little bit better,
sometime get much more worse, but I do place a lot of hope in the
second generation immigrant, that the second generation immigrant, I
myself was the first generation to consider, but hope the second
generation will have enough skills that can speak different
languages, Mandarin, English, Cantonese, and a lot of the Fukienese
people already speak, just three, I mean the young generation speak
the two or three language. I have a couple of staff who are Fukienese
who can speak English, Cantonese, Mandarin, have no problem.
</p>
<p>
So I just you know, want to say that the second generation
working with the first generation young immigrant, they can do
something much more positive than what we could do in this
generation. Because this generation if we still have that old
mind-set, it will be hard. But I, I see the second generation it
changing. When I talk about the second generation, like ABC, but when
I talk about the first young generation, I mean, they come as a
teenager, they see all the struggle, all the problem. So if this two
generation can work together, I think we certainly can change the
Chinatown into a garden, and in terms of keep being a graveyard.</p>
<p>But
they, they do need to work together and communicate together, in the
sense now in the schools. Sometimes, the ABC still pick on the new
immigrant, ”Oh, your English is not so good.” But if
those new immigrant children pick on them, “Oh, you call
yourself Chinese, shame on you, you don’t even speak Chinese.”
And if they continue with that kind of mentality, then that’s
another war that they have to deal with. But so, I hope that this
generation whatever we cannot do, but at least we can educate our
children, educate our second generation or the young immigrant
generation to break that wall, to live as a one community, and to
work as a one community, and for the better future of Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
Well, thank you so much for sharing your views and your vision with
us today. Is there anything else that you want to say, that I haven’t
asked you?<br><br>Ye: No, pretty much you asked a lot of good
questions, and I think you also, I feel that you also know the
community well, and the struggle, of course from the Chinese Museum,
I can imagine you probably know the past, you know the present and
hopefully you guys will do more to create a better future for
Chinatown. Ah, you need, I think history itself can make men wise.
Without history, we don’t know what is passed, what had
happened. So history is so important, so I hope that more and more
second generation and also the new immigrants’ children can
have opportunity to really learn more about the history of Chinatown,
and to interview like this certainly can help them to understand what
kind of struggle, ah, we have gone through and what we are facing,
and hopefully in the future this thing will not happen again. And
certainly about this Fujianese community, after we have gone thought
those September 11<sup>th</sup> meetings, and with FEMA, with the
government official, and federal and
local
level official, we have told them so much about this community, I
strongly believe, this idea of, that if there is another let’s
say, incident or disaster that happen in New York City or any part of
the country, certainly they probably are more, will be more
sensitive, to each community, not just listen to what people are
saying, but that they themselves would investigate and understand
which community has not been served and why it hasn’t been
served. Because, if they’re giving the money out, they
certainly need, will need to hold the people who are getting the
money accountable and responsible for getting the funds. Because the
funds themselves come from different parts of sources, and some from
people, ordinary people, and some from rich people, but certainly
using that fund to the right community, and to the people that really
need it is so important.
</p>
<p>So
I think after going to all the meetings they certainly have better
understanding about the structure of Chinatown themselves, so the
working group that they have, from what I heard is that they already
have a map out, and yes, when you’re working with immigrant
community you have to look beyond this group that you can see. So, so
to speak, like Fukienese community, we call them, it’s a
minority group within the minority group. So really, it’s need
to help.
</p>
<p>So,
I think, I think that that probably will help us to understand,
because Chinese community is one community, but in Chinese community
you have another, you know, minority group, like a Fukienese. So I, I
kind of feel that other community might have the same struggle, same
problem, so I just hope that those government official, the state and
local official and people who are giving out funding can be more
savvy and more careful when they give out the money and need to hold
everyone accountable.
</p>
<p>And
so that really help all the people who needed help, not just certain
people who just happen to know how to get help. But there a lot of
people, sometime they don’t even know how to ask for help,
because they so, desperate and so badly impacted, like this
community, that they don’t even know how to ask for your help,
so I hope that this something that I share can be helpful, um, to
become part of the history.</p>
<p>Q:
Well, the Fujianese community is lucky to have you to help them
here.</p>
<p>Well,
I’ve been speaking with Henry Ye, of True Light Lutheran
Church. Thank you so much for your time, and, and sharing your views
with us. And my name is Lan Trinh. Thank you.</p>
<p>Ye:
Thank you.</p>
<p>[end
of session]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕今天是2004年3月11日。我現在在唐人街Worth Street True Light Church﹐坐在我旁邊的是Henry Ye。你能先講一下你是從哪里來的嗎﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕我在中國廣州出生﹐後來在南美洲待了六年﹐然後來到了紐約。</p>
<p>問﹕哇﹐[笑] 講得很快。請稍微慢一些。你是在廣州出生的。我能問一下你的年紀嗎﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕在我離開中國的時候﹐我十三歲。</p>
<p>問﹕那是哪一年﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕1982年。</p>
<p>問﹕82年。你的家人爲什麽決定要離開中國﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕實際上﹐我姐姐一家當時已經在中美洲了﹐所以我們就移民到那裏和他們團聚。當然﹐中國的機會比較少﹐我想從經濟狀況方面來看﹐你的生活上的選擇也比較少。</p>
<p>問﹕你是否還記得你小時候在中國的事情﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕一點點。我想我記得很清楚的就是我出生在一個非常貧困的家庭﹐農民家庭﹐總是不夠吃﹐家裏也沒有錢。我之所以認爲南美洲的機會會多一些是因爲我看到我姐姐過得還不錯﹐所以我們決定舉家去中美洲發展。</p>
<p>
問﹕你姐姐已經住---</p>
<p>葉﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕在中美洲哪里﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕巴拿馬。</p>
<p>問﹕所以她合法申請你們去了巴拿馬﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕是的。我的兄弟姐妹都已經不在中國了。</p>
<p>問﹕那你是和你的父母一起去的﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕實際上﹐我父母去得晚﹐後來我母親才去了中美洲。</p>
<p>問﹕你當時才十三歲﹐你的感覺如何﹖你想離開中國嗎﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕就像你剛才所講﹐我只有十三歲﹐一些事情並不是由我一個人決定的。我只是覺得要去另外一個地方﹐就好象是去旅遊。在沒有到那裏之前你並不知道要走多遠。所以﹐我在那時並沒有太多的感覺。我的哥哥也去﹐所以我就跟著他﹐就好象去逛街一樣。你不知道將要發生什麽事情﹐但我知道我可能會要去很長一段時間。</p>
<p>問﹕你當時想象巴拿馬會是什麽樣子的﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕沒有什麽印象。他們只是說那個地方沒有冬天﹐四季都是一樣的﹐就是熱。</p>
<p>
問﹕在你去之前﹐你是否會講西班牙文﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕不會。</p>
<p>問﹕你到那兒之後感覺如何﹖你不講當地的語言﹐是不是覺得很難適應﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕是的。實際上的確非常非常地困難﹐因爲在我走之前我還在中國讀書。但後來我到巴拿馬的時候﹐當然我不會講西班牙文﹐我只講中文。這給我的就學造成很大困難﹐因爲那個地區不像這裏﹐沒有雙語教學。這使我很難適應﹐我想讀書﹐但是我跟不上﹐所以只好退學。我用了兩年的時間跟我的鄰居學西班牙文。</p>
<p>問﹕你用了多長時間才能夠自由和別人用西班牙文對話﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕在一年半之後﹐我才感覺好了一些。因爲我當時還小﹐只有十三歲﹐在那個年齡學西班牙文還不是太吃力。所以﹐在一年半之後﹐我能夠和那些土生土長的巴拿馬人自由會話。在那以後﹐我就覺得過了語言關﹐於是決定重返學校。</p>
<p>問﹕你沒有想回中國嗎﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕沒有﹐因爲我全家都在那裏,也沒有必要回去了。在一年半之後﹐我覺得已經非常適應那個新的環境了﹐所以我決定留下來。</p>
<p>問﹕在巴拿馬有沒有一個華人的社區﹖你在那邊有沒有中國朋友﹐那邊有沒有中國商店﹐食品---</p>
<p>
葉﹕有。實際上﹐巴拿馬市有一個唐人街。非常非常小﹐只不過是兩條街﹐但那裏有中國餐館﹐中國商店。在朋友方面﹐我想我的巴拿馬朋友多過我的中國朋友﹐因爲除非你住在唐人街﹐大家都是分散在各地。所以和其他中國人接觸的機會很少﹐除非在節日慶祝的時候由華人團體把大家聚在一起﹐但除此以外只是學校的同學。但他們大多數都是在巴拿馬土生土長的巴拿馬人。</p>
<p>問﹕你沒有覺得受到排斥嗎﹖我的意思是說﹐在你學會講當地的語言之後﹐跟別人溝通是沒有問題了﹐但你覺得能夠融入那個社會嗎﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕是的﹐沒有什麽問題。實際上﹐我上的那家學校﹐那家初中只有一個中國人﹐就是我。大家都對我非常好﹐大部分的同班同學和學校裏的學生都對我非常好。他們知道我跟他們不一樣﹐但他們都能夠接受我﹐他們也歡迎我加入他們的圈子。所以﹐我感覺在那裏生活不錯﹐而且有很多朋友。</p>
<p>問﹕你在巴拿馬待了多長時間﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕我在那裏待了六年。我畢業後就工作了﹐大約是六年。</p>
<p>問﹕在那以後﹐你是怎樣來美國的﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕後來﹐我來美國讀書。我感覺巴拿馬太---﹐我全家都在那裏﹐但我還是想多體驗一些。巴拿馬是個非常小的國家﹐那裏的機會也是很有限的。我總是想受高等教育﹐總是想上大學﹐於是我來這裏上大學﹐想多學一些東西。</p>
<p>
問﹕在哪里﹖你去了哪間大學﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕我去了城市大學﹐CUNY﹐紐約市立大學。</p>
<p>問﹕你爲什麽選擇那個學校﹖你爲什麽選擇紐約市﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕我認爲紐約市很多元化﹐不論是在人口方面﹐還是語言方面。我喜歡這種不同﹐學習不同的語言。所以﹐我認爲紐約會給我提供這樣的機會去結識各種各樣的人﹐不講西班牙文、講西班牙文、或者不講中文的學生。這就是我選擇紐約的原因。</p>
<p>問﹕你在巴拿馬有學英文嗎﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕沒有。實際上﹐我有學習一點英文﹐但不能完全對話。你也許懂一些單詞﹐英文單詞﹐但因爲沒有練習的環境﹐所以很難說我懂英文。也許我懂一些單詞﹐但不會講英文。</p>
<p>問﹕那麽﹐你19歲的時候來到紐約﹐講流利的中文和西班牙文﹐但非常有限的英文﹐便來這裏讀大學了。</p>
<p>葉﹕是的。</p>
<p>問﹕你覺得很艱難嗎﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕是的﹐非常艱難。實際上﹐我來之後就馬上註冊入學了。因爲我的英文水平不好﹐我覺得如果我馬上上大學的話會浪費很多錢﹐因爲你是外國學生﹐你要花很多錢上ESL補習英文。於是﹐我決定先上高中﹐學些英文﹐所以我又重上高中﹐這次不單單是學英文﹐<br>
我又選了其他一些課程﹐我花了兩年時間讀完了高中。在那之後﹐我上了大學。所以在那之前﹐我花了兩年時間做準備。</p>
<p>問﹕你是否覺得在19歲的時候還上高中很奇怪嗎﹖儘管你看起來還很年輕﹐我覺得你看起來比你的實際年齡要小。</p>
<p>葉﹕是的﹐是很奇怪。但我去的是Lower East Side Preparatory High School﹐他們只接收十七歲以上﹑有初中或高中畢業文憑的學生。這樣﹐他們可以幫助你適應這個社區環境。所以﹐這對我有很大幫助。我認識的很多學生都來自世界各地﹐他們的年齡也差不多是十七﹑十八歲。他們並不比我年輕多少﹐所以我在那個學校還不是覺得很特殊。</p>
<p>問﹕你以前有沒有來美國的願望﹖你想將來做什麽﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕十九年來我倒沒有什麽太大的願望﹐只不過是想多學一些知識﹐多接受一些高等教育。我那時候還不知道十年之後我會在哪里或做些什麽﹐但是我唯一知道的事情就是要上大學完成學業﹐這樣我會有更多的機會。但究竟什麽樣的機會﹐我不知道。</p>
<p>問﹕你的父母有沒有給你一些建議或壓力讓你做些什麽﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕沒有。我父母沒有受什麽教育。我母親在中國壓根兒沒有上過什麽學﹐她是文盲。我想我父親也只上到二年級。所以他們沒有上學的機會﹐也是這些使我懂得教育的重要性。他們沒有要求我必須做律師或醫生什麽的﹐只是說﹐你要是想讀書﹐你就去讀書﹐只要他們沒有阻止我﹐那已經算是支援了。</p>
<p>
問﹕你是自己一個人來這裏的﹐你當時在紐約跟誰住在一起﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕我來到這兒之後交了一些朋友﹐我和朋友們住在一起。我只是住在這裏上學﹐並不是說我在這裏有個基地什麽的﹐因爲你也知道﹐大多數學生都是自己一個人來這邊的。</p>
<p>問﹕你是在唐人街住的嗎﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕是的。實際上﹐我剛來的時候是住在唐人街。我住在Christie Street,Christie和Grant Street的交口處。</p>
<p>問﹕這是哪年的事情﹖你剛來的時候﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕我想是1989年﹐這是很久以前的事情了。</p>
<p>問﹕那時候的唐人街同現在有很大不同。你來的時候害不害怕﹖你對唐人街的感覺如何﹖</p>
<p>葉﹕那個時候的唐人街同現在比起來有很大不同。在那個時候﹐準確地說是80年代末90年代初﹐唐人街有很多幫派﹐你會看到在街角有很多年青人站在一起﹐那時候是挺嚇人的。我的確認爲唐人街那時候是個墳墓﹐因爲很多人被殺被搶﹐那些年青人看上去並沒有想上學﹑求上進的動力。我就是覺得他們沒有什麽前途。</p>
<p>墳墓只是我當時腦子裏想的一個詞﹐如果他們不改變的話﹐唐人街也不會有什麽發展。</p>
<p>問:但是對於那些獨自一個人來這裏的年輕人來講,他們大多數加入幫派是因爲他們很孤獨,在這裏沒有家庭,得不到別人的幫助。爲什麽你當時沒有想加入幫派呢?</p>
<p>
葉:實際上,我也有想過。實際上,我在巴拿馬的時候也並不是個全優學生。我差不多是在貧民窟長大的,所以也很複雜,在我家周圍也有很多幫派。但當我來到美國之後,我的目的是要受到更好的教育,要更加充實自己。於是,我覺得最好的辦法是在我來之前成爲一個基督徒。這個同你的問題有很大關係。所以,當我來到美國的時候,我已經有那種基督信仰---我有讀聖經,它教導你如何行善,不殺生,不傷害別人,你必須幫助別人,所以我也有去唐人街的教堂。</p>
<p>我覺得這的確改變了我,因爲教會的人引導我向好的方面發展。然而我社區裏的同學或校友教我學壞。因此,我總會有個選擇。這樣,我會知道什麽是好,什麽是壞,我能夠在好與壞之間做出選擇。所以,我選擇了好,而沒有加入那些幫派。</p>
<p>問:你的家人也是基督徒嗎?</p>
<p>葉:不是。實際上,我父母和兄弟姐妹都不是基督徒。但在我成爲基督徒之後,我向我的一些侄子侄女傳福音,這樣他們也成了基督徒。</p>
<p>問:在你在中國長大的時候,人們不能公開地進行宗教活動,那你是不是在巴拿馬才開始接觸基督教呢?</p>
<p>葉:是的。在中國的時候,我不太瞭解宗教,因爲正如我剛才所講,只有十三歲,只看到我父母不時地燒香祭奠祖先。但後來我到了巴拿馬,那裏是個自由的國家,因爲那裏的國教是天主教,是個宗教國家,我看到我的鄰居們每個星期天都去教堂,於是我開始産生了好奇心,便自問,爲什麽他們穿戴整齊去教堂呢---於是,我就問他們,去教堂有什麽好處?<br>
他們就解釋給我聽,他們講的其中一點就是你可以穿漂亮的禮服在教堂結婚。</p>
<p>就是因爲這一點我對基督教開始産生了興趣。如果有朝一日我要在教堂裏結婚,我首先要加入教會。我就是這樣開始和我的鄰居一起去教堂,心想有一天我也可以在教堂結婚,對具體的宗教教義我倒並不太在意。在去了幾年教堂之後,我發現教堂並不只是這些。他們教你怎樣做一個正直的人,這對我的影響非常大。</p>
<p>問:你是說在你來這裏的時候,因爲你的宗教信仰,你來的時候已經有了精神支柱,所以這些促使你去努力學習和做善事,不會讓你有太多的麻煩。你沒有加入幫派,在你---</p>
<p>葉:是的。我認爲的確是這種情況。至少我的一些朋友離開了學校,他們輟學了,沒有再繼續讀下去,因爲他們沒有父母親人的精神支援。但對於我,我也沒有父母或家人的支援,但我的確有教會的支援,我管他們叫兄弟姐妹,他們會鼓勵我,每當我情緒低落需要幫助的時候,他們就會給我打氣,向我伸出援助之手。</p>
<p>我想是因爲我的信心使我不斷地進步,因爲我只學了兩年的英文就上了這裏的大學,這是非常非常不容易的,你差不多每個字都要查字典。因此,如果一個美國學生需要學習兩個小時,我差不多需要花六個小時,因爲我的語言障礙。</p>
<p>但因爲我的信仰,因爲基督教和信上帝,我經常禱告,每次考試的時候,我也禱告。每當我遇到困難,我也禱告,祈禱上帝幫助我,這的確對我有很大的幫助。當我努力掙紮,生活上遇到困難時,<br>
我也請求上帝幫助我。就是這種動力使我不斷努力不斷進步。</p>
<p>問:你在CUNY學的是什麽專業?</p>
<p>葉:我學的是心理學,因爲我想更多地瞭解一下我自己。我覺得自己就是一個謎。有的時候我不太懂得爲什麽我會那麽想,或爲什麽做那個決定。所以我特別想更多地發掘一下我自己---爲什麽我就是我,想更多地瞭解一下我自己。</p>
<p>這就是我選這個專業的初衷,但當我學了一段時間之後,我開始意識到心理學不但可以幫助我本人,還可以幫助其他人,於是我就一直學這個專業並拿了這個專業的學位。</p>
<p>問:在CUNY讀了四年之後,你的第一份工作是什麽?</p>
<p>葉:實際上,在我畢業前不久,我申請了唐人街YMCA的一份工作,是做預防專案的病例策劃,這個專案是爲了幫助那些跟ACS(Administration for Children’s Service)和Center for Children’s Services有麻煩的家庭,或在家庭法院有糾紛的家庭,或其他一些需要幫助的家庭,比如他們的孩子已經輟學,或在輟學邊緣,不知道要加入幫派還是繼續讀書。</p>
<p>這是我所感興趣的工作,因爲我幾年前也曾經歷過這些,現在看到其他青少年沒有心思上學,在街上閒逛。我就是想幫助他們,讓他們意識到生活並不只是在街上尋開心。你可以做更多的事情。使他們的家庭團結起來,共同合作。就這樣,我剛開始是唐人街YMCA預防專案的病例策劃者。</p>
<p>問:我知道你並不是移民來紐約的。但從很多方面來看,你是美國移民,然而你跟其他的人不同,因爲大多數的移民來到這裏之後非常努力地工作學習,他們想賺很多的錢。<br>
在你看來,是什麽促使你當一個社會工作者,正如你剛才所講,在你很小的時候就想付出。</p>
<p>葉:是的,我想這是一個非常好的問題。你說得沒錯。很多移民來這裏之後都想學一些能夠賺錢的技能,比如金融,電腦,或電子工程。我覺得這很正常,因爲他們來自一個非常拘束窮困的環境。儘管我也來自那種環境,貧窮,受限制,當我來美國的時候,我只是想學習更多的知識,受些教育。</p>
<p>但在此同時,在我腦子裏,我也想變得富有。我也想賺錢。但因爲我有去教堂,我看到教會裏的人無償無條件地幫助別人。他們幫助你不是因爲你會償還他們,他們幫助你是因爲你的需要。而且,他們幫助別人後很開心,這也是聖經教導你去做的事情。即是,付出要比得到好。這些正好和我的宗教背景相關聯,這使我懂得金錢並不是一切,通過幫助別人、使別人快樂,你自己也會開心的。有一些事物金錢也買不到,比如快樂。</p>
<p>因此,我意識到要幫助別人,沒有必要賺很多的錢,但在我心裏以及我的生活裏,我覺得是受到了補償或獎賞,因爲看到一個破裂的家庭又重新和好團聚,這是金錢所買不到的。這就是我喜歡自己所做的事情的原因。</p>
<p>問:你的家裏是否也支援你做這些?他們沒有要求你寄錢回去嗎?寄錢給家裏?帶他們離開中國?</p>
<p>葉:沒有,實際上我家裏從來沒有給過我什麽壓力,因爲他們已經不在中國了。我的哥哥姐姐有的在巴拿馬,在西班牙有一個哥哥,還有一個姐姐在佛羅裏達。他們在世界各地。他們全離開了中國。除了我父親,我父親不想出去,他喜歡自己的老家。但我想這對他也好,他熟悉自己的鄰居和那裏的環境,而且我們也尊重這些,我們尊重他的選擇,<br>
所以我沒有什麽壓力,他們也有提過錢之類的要求,因爲我是家裏最小的,所以他們對我的期望也不大。你懂我的意思嗎?我覺得這樣很好。你有哥哥姐姐,他們都在照顧父母,資助父母,這樣我就沒有什麽負擔了。</p>
<p>問:你畢業後的第一份工作是在唐人街的YMCA,那你工作上接觸的主要是年輕人嗎?</p>
<p>葉:主要是有孩子的家庭,正如我剛才所講,他們或者是跟ACS有麻煩,因爲文化差異或是語言障礙,父母管教孩子不當,導致學校或輔導員跟Administration for Children’s Service聯繫,因爲他們擔心會有虐待兒童或忽視兒童的危險。我們就是這樣介入的,我們大多數的病例來自ACS,是ACS推薦來的,主要的準則是你必須讓孩子待在家裏,然後我們做他們的工作,因爲這就是預防的含義,幫助那些家裏有小孩的家庭。</p>
<p>問:能不能給我們舉一些病例,因爲作爲一個在美國長大的中國人我知道美國人對虐待的理解同中國家庭有時有一些誤解。能否給我們舉一些中國父母管教孩子的例子,而美國老師卻認爲孩子是在家裏受虐待。</p>
<p>葉:比如在中國,我也來自中國,我也是由父母帶大的,我知道在中國你父母打你是因爲他們愛護你。他們糾正你是因爲他們關心你。這就是中國移民的觀念和哲學。沒有什麽法律規定你因爲打你的孩子就要受到懲罰,別人就會叫警察或ACS。在中國就沒有這些,那時還沒有這個意識。他們認爲孩子是受你管教,那是你的責任,如果你管教不好他們,以後他們成了社會上的壞人,這是父母的過錯,這也就是父母打他們或管教他們的原因。你說的打就是體罰,他們也許是用竹棍子打他們,<br>
想管教他們,想幫助他們,避免他們以後再做壞事情。</p>
<p>比如,有這麽一家人來到美國,有一個孩子不想上學,因爲他們認爲上學太辛苦,而且他們又不講英文,他們經常取笑他。於是他決定不去學校。那孩子的父親知道他這麽小的年紀就不讀書,他才有十三歲,如果不去讀書在美國就沒有前途。你不講這裏的語言,你不講英文,你又不去上學,這就好象是違法一樣。當然他們也不懂得什麽法律,但他們知道孩子需要讀書,而且希望孩子能夠讀書,學英文,將來才會有更好的生活,不至於像他們一樣在衣廠或餐館辛苦工作,他們希望孩子能夠過得比他們好。</p>
<p>但孩子就是不想去學校,父親爲了管教他而打了孩子,當然孩子就舉報了,因爲他告訴了一個朋友,那個朋友又告訴了老師,老師便打電話給ACS,然後ACS就來了,想把孩子帶走,我們就是這樣介入的,想幫助這個家庭,瞭解一下情況。我們給ACS的工作人員翻譯,有很多ACS的工作人員都不講中文。這大概是五、六年前的事情,那時沒有很多的亞裔在ACS工作。</p>
<p>就這樣,我們幫助他們瞭解文化差異,父親想幫助孩子,但法律規定打孩子是錯誤的,這就是爲什麽我們要把你的孩子帶走,這件事就這樣被ACS知道了,因爲有人向ACS舉報了。我個人認爲,每個國家都有他們自己的法律,都有他們自己的制度。他們現在生活的國家,美國,有保護孩子的法律,當然他們有權做他們必須做的事情,但作爲家長,他們並不懂得法律,這就是欠缺的地方,沒有對家長教育的環節。這就需要我們介入來開展教育工作,即所謂的家教技巧,<br>
或家教技巧訓練。我們要教導家長他們在中國教育孩子的方式在美國行不通。如果你仍舊用老一套的方式來管教你的孩子,在美國你就要觸犯法律。</p>
<p>就是這樣,那個家庭開始懂得這些,他們也已經改正了自己的行爲。他們說,我們關心自己的孩子,我們愛護自己的孩子,但是打孩子是違反法律的,因此他們不會再這樣做了。他們想讓我們給那些家庭提供服務,做家長的工作,也做孩子的工作,教育雙方,讓他們知道對方的立場,父母的期待和孩子的努力。因爲缺少交流,父母不知道孩子有很多的壓力和困難,校方也努力溝通,努力理解。父母所看到的只是孩子沒有去上學是錯誤的。所以,這是一個溝通的問題,這是病例之一。</p>
<p>這是一個典型的例子,因爲即使是現在,很多的家庭仍然存在這個問題。今年,成千上萬的新移民來到這個社區,但這些教育宣傳並不是每天都有,所以人們必須要受到這方面的教育才能解決這類問題。</p>
<p>問:你認爲一個新移民家庭在唐人街住和在一個中國人比較少的社區住,比如郊區,會有很大不同嗎?先到唐人街是不是會使他們更加容易融入美國生活?</p>
<p>葉:就我自己的經驗來看,我認爲唐人街是一塊墊腳石。這會使他們更加容易適應,因爲整個社區都是講中文,他們在購物時也能買到他們想要買的食品,吃到中餐,而且在交通方面,這裏地方也不大。在唐人街,你完全可以步行,所有的地方都很近。這樣會使他們更加容易適應新的環境。</p>
<p>在孩子的就學方面,這裏有雙語或ESL(英語作爲第二語言)班,<br>
爲他們提供語言幫助,儘管他們有些來到這裏時還不會講英文,這會使他們進步得更快。但在紐約的唐人街居住也有一個不利的方面,即是居住問題。這裏的居住空間是非常有限的。越來越多的人來到這裏,但這裏的住房條件還是沒有太大的改變,所以大家不得不擠在一起。於是,一個四口之家會住在同一間房,因爲你的姑姑移民過來但沒有其他地方可去,便和你們住在一起,因此,現在是八個人住在一間有兩個臥室的房間,居住環境很擁擠。這是唯一的不利因素。</p>
<p>但到外州,因爲中國人視紐約市爲“州”,離開紐約市就是外州。就好象“中國”是國家的中心,或中央國家的意思一樣,凡是中國之外都是外國。所以,如果剛到美國的新移民馬上搬到郊區去住,他們會遇到更多的困難,首先,比如說在新澤西或康州的郊區,你如果家不住在超市的旁邊,你必須開車去超市購物。</p>
<p>但很多新移民沒有駕照,他們的英語也不流利,還不能考駕照。對於一個來自中國的農民來講,開車可能是一個很大的挑戰,他們甚至也許還不會騎自行車,然後現在你讓他們開汽車。在孩子的就學方面,學校裏大多數都是白人,這會給他們造成很大的困難,因爲並不是每一間學校都有ESL或雙語的課程。那麽,如果移民到這裏後不久就入學的話,他們會面臨很多困難。就我本人來講,我剛到巴拿馬後就進了學校,後來又不得不退學,在學了一年半的語言之後才又重返學校,是同樣的經歷。我認識的很多家庭是把孩子留在紐約,然後他們去外州打工,因爲這裏工作機會有限,這樣他們把孩子留給親屬照看,有時是朋友,他們在外面工作支援家庭。</p>
<p>
當我問他們爲什麽不把孩子帶在身邊,他們說因爲當地的教育系統,他們的孩子很難適應那裏的學校。這是一個非常棘手的問題。這對整個家庭也是一個挑戰。特別是對於唐人街的新移民家庭,他們來到這裏要面對很多各種各樣的挑戰。</p>
<p>問:就你的觀察,在來唐人街的移民的比例上,有多少人真正在這裏長期待了下來,還是說,他們一旦掌握了語言和工作技能就離開了?</p>
<p>葉:就我本人過去十年或十五年在唐人街的觀察,我在這裏的確待了很長時間,差不多有十五年了,唐人街有了很大的變化。十五年前的唐人街大多是臺山人和廣東人,你去菜市買菜必須要講廣東話。如果你不講廣東話,買菜就會有很多麻煩,因爲他們聽不懂你講的,你也聽不懂他們講的。</p>
<p>但在十年後,情況有所改變。唐人街整個的社區結構發生了變化。瞭解唐人街的人都知道,發展非常迅速的團體是福建人社區。他們大批地湧入,從東到Bowery,南到Houston,北到Catherine,佔據了大半唐人街。因爲福建人的湧入,這一帶的臺山人和廣東人不得不遷出,因爲需求不斷造成房價的持續高漲。</p>
<p>因此,很多在這裏住的時間長一些的人不得不搬走,或者搬到康州,或新澤西,或布魯克林,有一些搬到了皇后區,當前有一些人開始搬到史丹頓島。你需要,正如我所講,新移民的第一塊墊腳石。在我上高中的時候,那是在十五年以前,一位中國老師就說過,如果你能在這裏待下去的話,你此時就不會在唐人街住了。意思是說,<br>
你如果有了英語技能,有了駕照,有了一些錢,你就會搬到康州或新澤西的郊區,或布魯克林、法拉盛。你沒有必要再待在唐人街,因爲用同樣的錢去租房,你會租到三個臥室的房間,而在唐人街你只能租到一間單臥室的房間。那你爲什麽還會待在唐人街呢?</p>
<p>問:如果你說唐人街的房租有這麽貴的話,那那些新移民怎麽會有錢住在唐人街呢?</p>
<p>葉:這就是問題的關鍵,因爲唐人街的房租貴到別人都租不起,所以他們只好合租一套房間。並不是他們想要這樣,而是因爲經濟原因,房租很貴,以至於一家人根本就支付不起。舉例來講,唐人街的一間兩臥室的房間需要一千五百或一千八百塊錢。一家四口人,父親母親都工作,孩子上學。父親在一家餐館打工,母親在衣廠上班。你知道在衣廠裏你能賺多少錢嗎?有的時候有工做,你能掙四十塊錢,如果服裝業景氣,你能輕鬆賺到八十塊錢。但一旦服裝業不景氣或沒有太多的活兒做,你也許一天只能賺二十塊錢,甚至沒有工做的時候一天只能賺十塊錢。</p>
<p>因此,對一個家庭來講,賺足夠的錢來支付房租是一件困難的事情。這還是說沒有考慮吃和其他的費用。所以,他們只好把房間的兩間臥室分開,把其中一間租出去,與另外一家共用起居室和廚房,他們每家只付九百塊錢。這樣,他們只能勉強在這種環境下居住。一家四口人必須擠在同一間臥室。沒有任何隱私。這樣的環境非常非常艱苦,我們看到很多很多的家庭不得不這樣做。</p>
<p>
但如果你是單身,一間兩臥室的房間可以住八個人,或十個人。房間裏會擺滿雙層床。瞭解唐人街的人都知道這些。所以,他們不是租臥室,而是租床位。這樣他們才能支付得起房租。</p>
<p>問:那爲什麽在近十多年有這麽多福建人來紐約?他們也去美國的其他地方嗎?他們也去其他國家,還是說他們就是想離開中國來紐約?</p>
<p>葉:1994年,政府部門估計美國有十萬福建人,紐約的唐人街是他們首選的地方,是所有福建人的第一選擇。在那時,1994年,發生了Golden Venture事件,從那時開始,政府官員才開始關注這個團體。在此之前,他們沒有太注意這些,除非哪個當地、市里的政府官員或警察彙報說這個社區有很多營利什麽的。</p>
<p>但在1994年,他們估計在美國有十萬人口,而且大多數都在紐約市,這裏是他們的首選,別忘了我們講過,他們管紐約市以外都叫做外州。因此,紐約是福建人的基地。你可以看到,東百老彙,怡東樓,東百老彙的東面商場,東百老彙88號,是這個社區的根據地。大多數人剛來的時候,他們先到這裏來找工作,聯繫職業介紹所,幫助他們到不同的地方去,安排交通等。</p>
<p>當然,十年之前還沒有這些,不太多。但他們在紐約市有很大的機構,有很多福建人的協會,這裏是他們的總部。他們來的時候,這裏是他們第一塊墊腳石。</p>
<p>
的確有一些人離開了紐約市,因爲這裏的工作機會有限。大多數從福建來的男人在餐館做工,大多數婦女是衣廠工人。因此,很多一起到這裏來的夫婦要分開,丈夫要在外面打工,視工作地點遠近,每星期回家一兩次。如果你在田納西或俄亥俄州打工,你可能每月才回家一兩次,要看情況。</p>
<p>人們到外面去是因爲沒有工作。尤其在9/11之後,很多人搬出紐約市因爲找不到工作,沒有什麽工作機會。很多衣廠都關閉了,他們只好全家搬到外州或把孩子留下,妻子和丈夫一同在餐館做工。</p>
<p>問:我有這種印象,我想很多人也都有這種印象,即福建人社區比較封閉。如果你不講福州話,你很難融入他們的社區。是不是這樣?因爲這個因素,你是否認爲他們同唐人街那些廣東人或北方人相比更加團結?</p>
<p>葉:我想是這樣的。福建人本身是一個非常獨特的社區和團體。如果你瞭解福建的歷史的話,即使在一千年前的中國,他們就形成自己的一個團體,福建的地形就好象是一口鍋,又大又寬,什麽都有,他們靠海,有港口,那裏也有河,也有耕田。他們已經處於依山傍海的流域。這些人非常親近因爲他們都講福州話,除了兒童要上學學習普通話以外,這是他們日常生活使用的語言。</p>
<p>在村子裏和家裏,他們都講福州話。除了語言方面,他們來美國的方式同他們在一起互相幫助也有很大關係。因爲在八十年代初,儘管有一些是移民來這裏,大部分的福建人是沒有經過正常的手續偷渡來的。因爲他們不相信政府,即使在中國福建。<br>
在政府和普通農民家庭老百姓之間也缺乏信任。所以,在他們來到這裏的時候,他們不知道該相信誰。他們最不想打交道的就是政府,因爲他們以前同中國政府打交道的經歷。</p>
<p>但來到一個不講福州話的地方,他們不懂當地的語言。如果你只講普通話或福州話,去廣東人開的菜市買菜就會有一定的困難。他們可能不會賣給你。我以前在街上曾經看到,有的講普通話的人去菜市買菜,賣菜的讓他們去別的店,不賣給他們,因爲不能溝通。因此,並不是說他們是一個非常封閉的社區。只不過是他們不想,或沒有機會到處逛,他們不知道外面是什麽樣的。</p>
<p>比如,很多福建人是文盲,沒有受過教育。很多人甚至不會寫自己的名字。我從1996年大學畢業後一直在福建社區工作。我有很多福建客人,後來我到另外一個機構工作,是一個Lutheran辦事處。我們的客人大多數是福建人,我因此有些機會瞭解他們。我本人不是福建人,但我能夠爲他們服務,因爲我瞭解他們的文化,懂得他們的奮鬥。語言障礙是一個不利之處,但他們把你當作是想幫助他們的人。當他們這樣認爲的時候,他們當然會把你當作自己人來看待。</p>
<p>很多時候,我認爲一些人會說,“那些福建人很抱團,因此我們很難幫助他們。”這就好象在講,“我不想解決這個問題,因爲這個問題太嚴重了。”但如果你認真地看待和考慮這些的時候,你會發現其實即使你不是福建人,你也能做很多事情。甚至福建人之間也不都是相互信任,他們也並不是對任何人都敞開心懷的。</p>
<p>
問:你認爲他們不相信廣東人嗎?其他的中國人,不單是美國政府和法律,以及其他他們不熟悉的事物?他們是否相信唐人街其他的中國人?</p>
<p>葉:我想他們對廣東人不是一個信不信任的問題。在政府方面,的確是這個問題,因爲正如我所講他們來自另外一個不同的政府系統。但在廣東人方面,我覺得他們視其爲一種競爭。也許你還記得我談到,或是我們談到,十年或十五年前的唐人街差不多都是臺山人和廣東人的天下。這裏到處都是衣廠和生意,那些廣東人來了之後努力工作,賺了很多錢。他們每個星期都會賺幾百、一千塊錢,要看他們所在的衣廠。但在最近的十年、十五年裏,越來越多的福建人湧入。這塊餅還是這麽大,但越來越多的人來這裏,都想找工作,使得工作市場的餅在這種工作環境下越來越緊張。如果你瞭解衣廠運作的話,你會知道,如果你工作效率高,你會賺更多的錢,會製造出更多的服裝。如果你做得不快,工作效率低,那要按你工作的時間來計酬。</p>
<p>那些福建人因爲是偷渡來的,他們在來的時候就欠了別人很多錢,有的是向家人借的錢,有的是親戚或朋友,因此,他們必須要努力工作。那麽,別人從九點工作到五點,他們差不多要從早上八點幹到晚上八點。這使得廣東人和福建人之間的關係非常緊張。很多時候,你在衣廠會聽到,“那些福建人搶了我們的工作,因爲那些福建人,我們錢都沒有以前賺得多了。”記得在十多年前,報紙上講福建女工必須整夜在衣廠做工,她們每天只能睡三、四個小時。並不是她們想要這樣。大多時候,老闆要求她們必須要完成工作。而且,她們也想賺更多的錢。這裏有雙方的因素。但那些廣東人不可能整夜或一連做十二、十四小時的工。<br>
福建人工作要更加努力,因爲他們是借錢偷渡來的,而那些廣東人都是移民來的,有身份。</p>
<p>問:從香港---</p>
<p>葉:從香港,或臺山地區。但很多福建人來的時候沒有身份,他們在來的時候已經欠別人幾---,比如說兩、三萬塊錢。他們必須要還帳,這使得他們拼命地工作。這也有道理。</p>
<p>因此,這個因素使社區本身産生很多衝突,直到現在還是這樣。</p>
<p>問:你是否覺得福建社區不太受歡迎,因爲他們在某種程度上壓低了工資,造成更多的競爭。他們的勞動力要比你剛才所講的那些多年前從香港或臺山來的移民廉價得多。因爲他們給唐人街帶來更多的競爭,所有的東西都比以前便宜。這使得另一社區對福建社區産生一些怨恨,比如汽車票價這麽便宜,造成唐人街的很多衝突和競爭。很多汽車公司是福建人開的,對不對?</p>
<p>葉:是的。我認爲怨恨主要是來自華人社區裏的其他人,在福建人和講廣東話的社區之間。在衣廠的工資方面,正如我所講,我在這裏待了十五年了,親眼目睹了這些變化,我關心這個社區,我去教堂,結識了各種各樣的人,他們對社區裏工作結構發生的變化也有同感。所以,通過看到和聽到人們的所作所爲,我對這兩大社區都有一定的瞭解。而且,在七年前,我開始在這個社區工作,發現這個問題越來越嚴重。</p>
<p>
怨恨當然是最主要的想法,因爲如果一個衣廠老闆花四十塊錢可以請人做一百件衣服,那他爲什麽要花六十塊錢請廣東人?因此,他們當然會雇工錢只有四十塊錢的福建人。這就是我所講的工作競爭。</p>
<p>假設勞動力市場競爭很激烈,工資水平在降低,但房價卻越來越高。於是,人們會産生怨恨之情。我們住在這裏,比如說,廣東人會講,我們花六百塊錢租兩個臥室的房間,現在福建人來了之後我們要付八百塊,因爲房東提高房租,想把他們轟走,然後把房子租給福建人收更高的租金。</p>
<p>這顯然是一個問題。但我認爲這並不是福建人的過錯,他們沒有要求更低的工資,但是他們沒有其他的方法賺錢還債。他們只能出賣勞動力。我想這裏也有雇主的因素。再比如,爲什麽很多美國的産業和生意沒有留在美國,卻都轉移到中國、印度?因爲成本。</p>
<p>在中國,你能花一塊錢做一雙鞋,但在美國也是一塊錢做一雙鞋,但這有很大的不同,因爲一美元等於八塊人民幣。這有很大的差別。所以,這全部是生意上的考慮。但我想,社區也因此遭受了損失。</p>
<p>問:跟我們講一下你現在的工作。你是負責人嗎?</p>
<p>葉:是的,移民事務的負責人。</p>
<p>問:是在這裏---</p>
<p>葉:在新生命中心。</p>
<p>
問:請介紹一下新生命中心。你們中心的宗旨是什麽?</p>
<p>葉:這個Lutheran社區服務新生命中心是在一年半前成立的。剛才我也有提過,是在9/11前不久。我的主辦公室離世貿中心只有兩個街口,在9/11的時候,部分撞到世貿中心的客機的機翼尖兒落到我們主辦公室的大樓,所以那座大樓不得不關閉。之後,行政人員和職員就搬到我們的辦公室,那時我們是在Christopher Street, Greenwich Village。他們搬到我們的辦公室後,我們沒有其他辦法,在那之後的一年就搬到布魯克林辦公。</p>
<p>我們在那個期間沒有太多的事務,只是繼續做自己的工作,用不同的方式來幫助福建社區。但在那之後不久,我們越來越多地從我們的客人那裏,從社區領導那裏,從教會和社區那裏瞭解到他們沒有受到太多的幫助,沒有從9/11的救濟金裏獲得足夠的補償和資助。在9/11之後,有很多的專案,比如針對居住在受害區內受到創傷的人有抵押租金幫助,人們可以申請9/11醫療保險,接受9/11ESL班的培訓,上英文課還能夠領每個星期三百塊錢的補助,如果你失業---</p>
<p>這些幫助了很多家庭支付房租或購買食品。錢一定會有幫助。而且,上完ESL課程之後,你還可以再接受七個星期的職業培訓,學一些在衣廠工作或簡單勞動以外的技能。他們可以學一些烹飪或其他的技能。</p>
<p>但那些福建人似乎不知道發生了什麽事情,外面有什麽情況。當我問Safe Horizon,如果你對此有瞭解的話,Safe Horizon是負責9/11基金發放的機構。如果您想獲得9/11專案的補償,你必須要通過Safe Horizon,一個補償分配的機構。當你在那裏登記的時候,<br>
你會獲得一張白卡,上面記有你的姓名和基本資訊。你可以用這張白卡申請醫療保險,不管你有沒有身份,你也可以報名參加ESL培訓班和職業培訓班。但當我們問他們在此之後的一年裏有多少福建人參加了這個專案。令人驚訝的是,具Safe Horizon記載,在9/11之後只有一少部分福建人參加了這個專案。</p>
<p>我們非常驚訝,因爲這個社區在這裏已經有很長時間了。如果政府部門的預計準確的話,在1994年就已經有十萬,每年又有一萬新人湧入,紐約又是他們最主要的目的地。如果只是算一半福建人的話,紐約市,從1994年到2002年,應該有一萬八千人,加上已有的十八萬福建人,再減半,比如說在紐約市周圍有九萬,至少有九萬人。假如並不是全部九萬人都住在曼哈頓唐人街地區,我們只算一半,那麽就是說唐人街有四萬五千個福建人,這是最---</p>
<p>[第一盤第一面結束,第一盤第二面開始]</p>
<p>問:那你是說在9/11之後,儘管福建社區是唐人街的一個很大的社區,而且他們離Ground Zero也非常近,你覺得只有一少部分人申請9/11的救濟金是令人驚訝的。</p>
<p>是不是因爲---,這些基金---,我有兩個問題。是不是凡是符合標準的人都能申請這些基金,無論有沒有身份,因爲你先前講過很多福建人是偷渡來的。是不是有這部分的原因他們才沒有去理會,害怕申請之後會因爲身份問題被政府追查?還是因爲他們因文化、語言或<br>
其他的因素比較孤立,不知道或不懂得怎樣申請?究竟是什麽原因呢?</p>
<p>葉:我想正如你所講,問題的關鍵與你剛才提出的兩點都有關。我先談一下第一個問題。</p>
<p>華人社區裏的很多福建人都是偷渡來的。但是他們當中也有一大部分是親屬申請移民來的。並不只是那些非法的福建移民沒有得到社區裏9/11的救濟和福利,那些有身份的家庭也沒有得到。這是我們從社區領導、社區民衆、教會和我們認識的人那裏知道的。這樣,我們才意識到那些需要救濟但沒有身份的人是怕他們申請後政府會查他們。</p>
<p>問:這是不是真的?那個基金---</p>
<p>葉:不是。9/11基金是通過FEMA(Federal Emergency Management)設立的專案,申請者必須要證明自己的身份。但其他很多的專案或服務提供的9/11基金是由紅十字會,Salvation Army,以及我們廣大民衆資助的,這些機構捐贈了上百萬美金設立了這個基金會來幫助受害者。這些錢並不全是政府出的錢,是幫助爲了那些需要幫助的人,與有沒有身份無關。只要你符合條件,需要幫助,你就可以領到救濟。</p>
<p>但這個問題有兩個方面。其一,那些偷渡來的大多沒有受過教育,不知道都有什麽救濟金,申請條件是什麽,申請或不申請會對他們有什麽影響。他們好象什麽都不知道。</p>
<p>第二點,同那些有身份的一樣。那些有身份的也不知道到底可以申請什麽。有些人認爲這些不是給他們的。因爲,<br>
如果你瞭解華人社區組成的話,我認爲這同你提出的第二個問題有關。第一個問題是他們不知道。第二個問題是爲什麽他們不知道。如果你瞭解社區結構---</p>
<p>在唐人街我們有幾家中文報紙,其中只有一、兩家使用簡體中文。大多數報紙都是用繁體字印刷的。但對於那些在中國看慣了簡體中文的福建人,他們到這裏後發現買的報紙都是用繁體字印刷的。這就好象讓只懂英文的人看西班牙文報紙。那他們能不能看懂呢?像“廣告”,“電視”一些詞還能夠看懂。但你認爲他們能夠看懂整份報紙嗎?不可能,即使字是非常相近,有的甚至是一模一樣的。</p>
<p>問:是不是因爲這兩份主要的報紙是臺灣和香港人辦的,在這兩個地方人們都是用繁體字?</p>
<p>葉:是的。報紙上有很多資訊,告訴你去哪里申請什麽,但那三大主要報刊,世界日報、星島日報、明報使用的都是繁體字。因此,福建人都不知道上面有什麽資訊。在電臺方面,我們有1480(AM),在9/11之後,1480剛剛開播,24小時播音。他們也做了很多宣傳,人們捐款設立了什麽基金,你可以去哪些地方申請救濟。但那些福建人根本聽不懂。</p>
<p>問:因爲是用廣東話廣播的。</p>
<p>葉:是的。他們是用廣東話廣播的,這是我們唯一一個24小時播音的華語電臺。你可以想象那些福建人看不懂,聽不懂,又不能和廣東人交流。難怪他們都不知道嘛。這是問題之一。</p>
<p>
另外一個問題是,當我們去見FEMA和New York Disaster Response Unit,以及其他主要負責機構反映福建社區的需要時,當我們問及他們是否知道福建社區沒有得到重視、被忽視的時候,他們顯得很驚訝,很不理解。他們說,我們劃撥了這麽多錢給華人社區的服務機構。那些華人社區的組織都講如果我們給他們錢他們會幫助華人社區。他們拿到錢之後,就應該把錢分給中國人。他們指的是所有的中國人,還是部分中國人?我們就是這樣在一次開會的時候認識了剛才你提過的官員,Charlie Lai。我們的問題是,福建人屬不屬於華人社區的?屬於。福建社區是不是也是在受害區域內?是的。但爲什麽他們沒有分到呢?這同華人社區其他的人不一樣,因爲他們不講廣東話。</p>
<p>問:那他們講普通話嗎?</p>
<p>葉:是的,有一些也講普通話。如果你調查一下唐人街社區機構的組成,你會發現大多數華人組織是廣東人負責的。大多數員工都講廣東話。下面的職員也許講普通話,但如果你問他們是否講福州話,不會,我們沒有會講福州話的。</p>
<p>舉個例子,我知道9/11基金撥了一些款給社區機構,然後這個機構又把一部分錢給了當地的華人組織。華人社區組織於是雇了一些人組成一個小組,幫助華人社區。就這些他們新請的人,我們問有多少員工講福州話,沒有。有多少人講普通話?兩個。<br>
你們有沒有開展對福建社區的服務?沒有。爲什麽?因爲他們的辦公地點都在西邊,而那些福建人都住在唐人街東邊。</p>
<p>在某種程度上,社區---我本人是廣東人。我對廣東人沒有任何偏見。但正因爲我是廣東人,我能看到正反兩方面,我聽得懂華語電臺裏的廣播,或通過別人、廣東員工瞭解到福建社區。但問題是,如果他們爲整個華人社區申請到了錢,他們應該多做些工作把錢儘量分發給整個華人社區,而不是華人社區的一部分。他們實在是害苦了福建人。</p>
<p>因此,如果你們沒有會講福州話或能夠跟他們交流的員工,那些福建人會怎麽樣?他們當然聽不懂。那麽,因爲這個問題,那些華人社區的機構不能和福建社區交流,又沒有做特別的努力去照顧福建社區,這樣就會形成一條鴻溝。幾年前,Asian-American Federation做了一項調查,顯示福建社區裏只有1.56%的福建人有初中以上的文憑。可以想象98.44%的福建人只有初中或更低的教育程度,也就是說,他們大部分都是文盲。那你怎樣才能和社區裏的文盲交流呢?靠口頭上的宣傳。</p>
<p>所以,我們看到這裏有很大的鴻溝。即使是在9/11發生的一年之後,2002年11月,我們從布魯克林又搬到這裏。我們就是這樣開始的。因爲我們意識到這條鴻溝,在我們搬到這個社區時,我們就有意識地想添補這條鴻溝。我們已經爲福建社區服務了七年之多,我們得到了他們的信任,我們和他們已經建立了這種關係。而且,作爲華人社區的組織,我們屬於Lutheran。這是一個很大的機構。他們知道我們在幫助他們,他們知道我們是教會,是有信仰的組織,他們知道我們想幫助他們,而不是要害他們。</p>
<p>
所以,在搬進來的時候,我們首先製作了宣傳單,發給人們。宣傳單是用簡體字印刷的,就是那些只受過很少教育的人也能夠看懂。傳單上向他們介紹我們是什麽樣的機構,我們的宗旨是什麽,我們提供的服務有哪些。就是這樣在社區裏擴大影響,後來陸續就有福建人到我們這裏來,十個、二十個。</p>
<p>在一年之內,從2002年11月到2003年11月,我們的目標是幫助一百個家庭,因爲我們只從紐約Lutheran Disaster Response,即LDRNY,得到一小部分款項。我們只得到很少的款項來開始這個專案,開始的時候才有兩個人。爲了幫助這個社區,我們請了福建的員工,主要負責宣傳教育工作。我們就是這樣開始的,逐漸有了一些客人,三個月後我們已經有了四百個客人。在第九個月,有一千兩百個。比我們預計或計劃服務的人數多很多。可見這個社區的需求很大。</p>
<p>問:這個教會幫助所有的人,不光是福建人。</p>
<p>葉:是的。教會本身是廣東的教會,我們利用從LDRNY申請到的款項服務福建社區,因爲已經有服務廣東社區的社區組織,“已經”是因爲他們也講廣東話,他們服務那個社區已經有很長時間,但是福建人卻什麽也沒有。就好象9/11的灰塵還在覆蓋著這個社區。人們還是看不到這個社區的需要,或者即使看到,他們也並不關心。這就是爲什麽當我同Charlie Lai談到這個社區的需要的時候,他也是非常贊同。我管他們叫做“需要更多幫助的社區”,Charlie Lai稱其爲“沒有得到幫助的社區”。這是非常現實的,爲什麽一年之後,有一千、一萬多個廣東人已經拿到了白卡,已經完成了各種培訓,已經得到了所有的幫助、救濟金,已經得到抵押租金幫助---一切他們能夠申請的,他們都已經申請了。<br>
他們甚至申請了空氣清新器和空調,所有他們能夠申請的,他們都已經申請了。那些福建人還不知道社區裏發生了什麽事情。這就是爲什麽我稱其爲“沒有得到幫助的社區”。</p>
<p>問:看起來主要的問題還是語言。它把福建社區孤立了起來,在我看來,也許他們不單要學習英文,還要學習廣東話。有沒有人想過要這樣做,這樣那些福建人會更加融入唐人街?</p>
<p>葉:你是說,讓他們不單學習英文,還要學---</p>
<p>問:一點廣東話。</p>
<p>葉:廣東話。</p>
<p>問:這樣他們可以更好地在唐人街生存。</p>
<p>葉:是的,但讓我問你一個問題。在唐人街,有多少家廣東餐館,多少家福建餐館?假如所有的美國人都搬到中國去,然後你跟中國講,你們應該學習英文,這樣你們才能夠和我們交流,你不認爲我們會有另外一種想法嗎?那些來唐人街的人大多數是打工的,或是老闆,而唐人街的居民大多數是福建人。想想看,爲什麽我們要要求福建人學廣東話來適應這裏,爲什麽不讓廣東人學普通話?我們還沒有要求他們學福州話。普通話是全國通用的語言---</p>
<p>問:中國的---</p>
<p>葉:中國的官方語言。每個中國公民都應該懂,如果你是美籍華人,你最好也要學<br>
普通話來幫助他們。對於那些剛剛來這裏的移民,比如福建人,他們已經在爲生存而掙紮,現在你又讓他們學廣東話來適應這裏的環境。這就好象是向和尚要頭髮。這是非常非常困難的。我認爲那些社區機構有義務幫助華人社區。當你去以任何方式幫助的時候,不要對那些向你求助的人說,在我們幫助你之前,你需要做些什麽事情。比如買菜,如果你想在我這裏買菜,你必須要先學廣東話。如果你不講廣東話,我不會把菜賣給你。我想這正好相反。這是做生意,對不對?所以,做生意的應該這樣想,如果我要做這個生意,我應該學普通話,這樣我才會有更多的顧客。</p>
<p>所以,就你剛才提出的問題,我想大概那些廣東社區的領導也是這樣考慮的。爲什麽他們不學廣東話?這是同樣的思維,但問題就在這裏,因爲這是一個很大的社區。保守地估計,至少也有四萬五千個福建人,你要要求他們全部學習廣東話,這是否有點不太實際?是的,的確很難。與其要求他們,不如讓提供幫助的人學習他們的語言來幫助他們。</p>
<p>我認爲這是這個社區的問題,而且同我們剛剛談到的廣東和福建社區的相互敵視也有關係。語言障礙是一個問題,但福建社區更加需要的是教育。如果這麽多的人都是文盲,那他們處理資訊的方式會很慢,或很不容易。所以,當你跟他們解釋他們申請的福利,9/11的福利,同政府沒有關係時,他們還是認爲是有關係的,那你又怎樣解除他們的顧慮呢?這很簡單,你教育他們,給他們一些確鑿的資訊。比如,我們請了律師,移民律師,我們讓移民律師給他們解釋,如果只是我們給他們解釋,他們只會消除一層顧慮,但他們還有法律上的擔心。從實際生活上來講,<br>
即使我申請了,這也許不會影響到我,而且這對我和我的家庭都有幫助。但是,在法律上怎樣消除這種顧慮呢?如果由專業人士,移民律師,來跟他們解釋美國法律的規定,他們就不會擔心了。</p>
<p>所以,在他們聽了律師的解釋後,他們的顧慮就全部消除了,於是就過來申請了。因此,基於和他們交流的方式,講他們能夠聽懂的話,使用他們能夠懂得的語言,安排合適的人跟他們解釋,通過講福州話的員工,或移民律師,這樣他們才知道沒有任何損失,因爲他們的確需要幫助。他們的家庭也存在各種各樣的危機,家庭暴力、虐待兒童事件越來越多,因爲夫婦都沒有工作,只好待在家裏。以前他們都有做工,每個星期只見一次面,沒有什麽好吵的,一切都很好。但現在失去了工作,家裏又不富裕,只有有限的積蓄,天天看到孩子,這産生了很多矛盾,並不是每一個人都知道該如何解決這樣的問題的。</p>
<p>因此,幫助他們從9/11相關的專案申請到幫助會減輕家庭裏的緊張。觀察到他們有這些需要之後,我們就開始提供這些服務來填平這個鴻溝。我們New Life Center在12月12日舉行了一次活動,到場的有一百多個來自社區、市里的民衆,以及聯邦、勞動部的官員。我們已經跟公衆宣佈,我們並不想競爭,只是想填溝架橋,這樣華人社區的組織可以通過我們幫助到福建社區。這就是我們要做的。直到現在,我們還是在這樣做,我們把上百個客人介紹給那些社區組織。在某種程度上,我們做一些篩選,他們必須懂普通話。那些組織有講普通話的員工,我們會把他們介紹給客人。當然,如果他們只講福州話,那些組織又沒有講福州話的員工,我們就沒有必要介紹給他們。我們只有有限的資源,能幫助他們的話,我們就會儘量幫助他們。</p>
<p>
問:你們現在是否還有9/11基金的資助?</p>
<p>葉:今天是3月11日---</p>
<p>問:11日---</p>
<p>葉:2004年---</p>
<p>問:4年---</p>
<p>葉:我們還有9/11基金的資助。我知道我們的專案曾一度終止過,因爲9/11基金剩下的錢不夠了。但自從我們設立了New Life Center開始爲福建社區服務,我們從LDNRY-一個私人機構,實際上是Lutheran基金會-得到的有限的資助開始,在一年之後,我們服務的人數遠遠超出了預計的數目。我們把這些問題反映到了9/11基金會,他們也意識到這個社區被忽視了。於是,他們從去年開始又撥給我們一些錢。當今年他們讓我們再提交建議的時候,我們又這樣做了,然後他們又提供了資助。因爲這些資助,我們才得以繼續幫助這些沒有得到幫助的人。</p>
<p>問:你是否認爲在唐人街不同的機構、組織之間缺乏溝通?還是說沒有一個有力的領導來帶領整個社區?</p>
<p>葉:從政治和社區角度來看,我認爲我們很明顯缺乏,正如你所講,一個有力的領導。我認爲這是一個團結的問題。經過這麽多的變化,唐人街的人口已經形成了好幾個部分。第一,是從各個區來這裏上班的人,這裏包括很多不住在這裏的業主。再有就是唐人街的居民,餐館業很大部分是福建社區。<br>
但福建移民社區來到這個國家的時間不長,他們不知道法律規定如何。他們很難進入政治舞臺,但很多廣東人在這裏待了很長時間,他們知道怎樣反映華人社區的問題。但大多時候,我們的觀點有分歧。在過去,我們唐人街有競選市議員的候選人。我們一共有三位候選人在同一個社區拉選票。但最終沒有一個勝出,那到底是誰贏了?聽說這次又是Ellen Garson被選上了。從唐人街的歷史上看,我認爲我們應該好好反省,要認真想一想唐人街最大的利益是什麽,而不是我自己或我的團體的最大利益,而是整個兒唐人街。如果我們的呼聲只是來自不同的地方,那些政治人士根本就不會理睬。如果這個社區不團結起來,我們的精力和力量是很有限的。</p>
<p>如果我們華人社區有一個強有力的領導,假設唐人街有上百個組織,包括臺山人,廣東人,福建人,或其他來自中國北部的,還有CCBA,我們有這麽多組織,如果這些組織團結在一起,不單是靠名稱,而是以同樣的身份團結在一起,共同呼籲,而不是各講各的,我們會有更多的機會登上政治舞臺,把整個兒社區團結起來。</p>
<p>唐人街是離Ground Zero很近的一個社區。如果你做一些調查研究,跟Salvation Army和紅十字會得到9/11基金比起來,爲什麽提供給唐人街的資助這麽有限?有多少錢真正投入到華人社區重建唐人街?我們講了這麽多要重建唐人街,但究竟有多少錢投入到唐人街來幫助我們的社區,幫助那些受到影響和創傷的人?如果你看到這些統計數位的話,你會發現是有多麽的少,多麽的微不足道。這又是爲什麽呢?</p>
<p>
唐人街是屬於Lower East Side的一部分。這麽多年來,作爲華人,我認爲的確是Lower East Side的一部分,因爲每個社區都有自己的一座山,每個組織又是每座小山上的一堆火。如果這堆火只是一根蠟燭的話,根本就起不了什麽作用,但如果你能夠把這些小山都放在一起的話,會形成一座大山,如果你把這些小堆的火放在一起的話,就會看到一座大山上的火。難道整個兒Tri-State Area看不到這個地區的火焰嗎?對不對?世貿中心受到襲擊,全世界都知道。爲什麽?因爲它這麽高,這麽有名,又遭到襲擊。煙霧升到高高的天空。全世界都能夠看到。假設唐人街的一座建築物著了火,也許住在布魯克林的人不知道,或者住在唐人街東面的人不知道東百老彙有座樓著火了,對不對?所以,我認爲問題的關鍵是要團結起來形成一個團體,再爲這個團體做呼籲。但現時,我個人認爲我們沒有作爲一個團體講話,只是分散在各處,這就是爲什麽我們社區沒有得到合理的幫助。</p>
<p>問:那你認爲什麽事情可以把大家團結起來,因爲看上去語言不能夠把我們團結起來,不論是書面的還是口頭的,都不一樣。那你認爲這個社區裏的什麽大家能夠一致同意,能夠把大家團結起來?</p>
<p>葉:只要承認自己是華人,或美籍華人,“中國人”,我們就已經有一個基礎了。只要你認爲自己是中國人,你就能夠像聯合國那樣交流。爲什麽聯合國能夠運作?是因爲聯合國的人,或聯合國的代表都講同一種語言?不,他們不講同一種語言,但他們有同樣的職責。他們聚集在一起,成立了聯合國,他們來自世界不同的地方,講不同的語言,但他們來到這裏有同樣的身份。在開會的時候,可以有人翻譯。如果你不講福州話,但有福建人的領導,我是說,你是福建人的領導,但你又不講普通話,當別人講普通話的時候,你可以使用翻譯耳機。所有的廣東人說,我不講普通話,他們也可以找翻譯。</p>
<p>
但我認爲語言障礙是能夠克服的。如果聯合國能夠解決這個問題,華人社區當然沒有問題,因爲不是說一共有一百零八種方言,我們這裏還不到十種,對不對?</p>
<p>問:主要的問題。</p>
<p>葉:主要的問題。如果只有十種不同的方言,這還不算是一個克服不了的困難。但華人社區需要認識到的唯一的問題是,如果我們不團結,我們永遠是老樣子,年復一年,在過去的十五年裏,我看到華人社區的一些發展,但發展還是不大。比如說Canal Street的交通燈,你經常看到有車撞到老年人,因爲他們行動緩慢,而那些車輛又趕著過Holland Tunnel。這個問題已經提出有好幾年了。這種情況有沒有得到改善?沒有。爲什麽沒有?因爲唐人街本身就沒有人管。我們反映給了政府官員。那政府官員說,我爲什麽要爲你們做這些?你們爲我做了些什麽?在我競選的時候,有多少人選了我,選了我的黨?哦,對不起,不多。那你現在又爲什麽來找我?</p>
<p>問:那問題還是我們,華人不投票,因此我們在市里形成不了一股政治勢力。</p>
<p>葉:也不是說華人不投票,而是懂得投票的人,知道投票會對社區帶來影響的人沒有盡力去教育民衆去投票。我總是說,我們是在美國生活,我們有選舉的權利。但對那些從中國來的人來講,投票還是一件新鮮的事物。如果你說,我們召集四百個人來開會,討論一些政治問題,一個小時之後也許你會被抓到監獄裏去,對嗎?</p>
<p>但在美國卻不同。在美國,你可以投票,你有投票的權利,你如果想表達你的意見,或者是反對政府,或者是支援政府,這是允許的。但很多人,即使成爲美國公民,還是不知道自己的職責和義務是什麽。<br>
在過去,很多年以前,在你尚未成爲美國公民的時候,他們告訴你美國公民的職責和義務是什麽。但現在你通過了考試,拿到了公民紙,成爲美國公民了。那些職責和義務又怎樣了?如果政府不做這些事情,誰又會去做,成立社區機構和組織?</p>
<p>但如果我們的工作做得不夠,沒有把選舉日作爲社區裏的大事,人們是不會知道的。你認爲很多人都知道哪天是選舉日,或者今天就是選舉日嗎?他們不知道,因爲他們不看報紙,他們看不懂。但如果你多做一些努力,到社區裏做宣傳,可能效果會好一些。如果我們看選舉的人數,實在是太少。但除了參加選舉的人以外,我們還是找不到其他登記了的選民。</p>
<p>問:你聽起來非常熱衷於關心這個社區。你有沒有考慮到自己?有沒有想過競選什麽職務?</p>
<p>葉:我是有想過,但好象你開始的時候所講,我還年輕,有很多東西要學,政治是一件嚴肅的事情。從政需要一些特殊的技能,並不是能說、有激情就能夠做的。你需要有關係,認識一些有影響力的人。要認識社區裏有影響力的人,這樣他們才能夠爲你講話或支援你。否則,你只是一個人站出來說,我要參加競選。別人會問,你是誰,你是哪兒來的?對不對?這是非常非常實際的,因爲政治就是金錢,金錢就是政治,我只是一個普通家庭的父親,需要一些時間。我不是說這不可能,但我還是需要學習,需要多認識一些人,現在我只是一個負責人,我只是和其他組織的負責人有接觸,但是接觸行政人員還需要一些時間。但是我知道有很多人已經瞭解整個兒系統,有很多關係,認識所有有影響力的人。<br>
那些人的機會可能會多一些,只要我們團結在一起。我們必須坐在同一張桌子上談一下社區的需要,把自己的計劃,自己自私的計劃放在一邊。對社區最有利的事情不一定對我也最有利、能填鼓我自己的腰包。</p>
<p>如果他們沒有帶著自己自私的目的,唐人街當然會有更好的發展,有更好的前途。</p>
<p>問:對於一個十三歲離開中國、十九歲來到這裏時還沒有明確的理想或抱負的人來說,你現在已經找到了你的位置,你已經爲社區做了很多事情。現在回想起來,在這過去的十五年裏,你是否爲你今天的成就感到驚訝?</p>
<p>葉:實際上,我是很驚訝,甚至我的很多朋友,同班同學都很驚訝,他們問我,爲什麽你爬得這麽快、這麽高?我想主要是我的激情。我熱衷於幫助移民社區因爲我自己就是移民,而且我經歷了這麽多困難。當我剛剛來到這裏的時候,我把唐人街叫作墳墓,因爲我看到每天都有很多年輕人死掉,幫派之爭,唐人街有很多問題。因爲我的宗教背景,它的確幫助我認識到人性並不都是自私的,你必須要付出。我也許能夠出去做生意,賺很多錢,每半年度一次假,但我選擇了社會服務工作。</p>
<p>當我回顧過去,我的確感到我已經或正在得到的回報要遠遠超過金錢所能夠購買的,這的確令我很驚訝。我給你舉一個例子,我從2002年開始在Hunter Social Work School學習。兩年半後畢業,我自己沒有花一分錢讀那個學位,因爲我獲得Department of Health and Hygiene的獎學金。我現在回想起來,當時紐約市有那麽多人申請那二十個名額,我就是其中的一個。爲什麽我能夠得到,其他人也都很有能力?就是這麽簡單一句話:因爲我關心社區,我已經爲社區做了很多。而且做決定的人也已經看到<br>
如果我有MSW(Master of Social Work)學位的話,我會做更多的貢獻。所以,他們把獎學金發給了我,讓我免費受教育。</p>
<p>這的確對我是很大的鼓勵,無論我做了些什麽,即使在經濟上我沒有獲得補償,但整個兒的系統是在補償我,他們給了我獎學金。我自己也非常高興,也非常感激,我的工作受到了紐約市,實際上是Department of Health and Mental Hygiene的肯定,我自己也以此爲榮。這也鼓勵我繼續努力,有一天,如果你需要,人們會肯定你的工作,獎賞你所做的一切。</p>
<p>因此,這的確是一個驚訝。我從來沒有想過會有今天,只是想多受些教育,這樣可以做些有益的事情來幫助別人和自己,所以說,這的確是一個很大的獎賞。</p>
<p>問:我的最後一個問題,既然你提到你剛到唐人街的時候把唐人街看作是個墳墓。你是否認爲在你的有生之年能夠看到這個墳墓會充滿、或者是說會有生氣,而不再是個墓地?你認爲這會實現嗎?</p>
<p>葉:我是一個充滿希望和信心的人,只要還有希望,我決不會放棄。我認爲唐人街本身有很大的潛力,而且唐人街有很多有潛力的人和領導。在過去十五年裏,我看到了很多變化,尤其是在Giuliani任期的時候,因爲他清除了所有的幫派。其他一些幫派成員受到檢控,他們已經消失了好幾年了。現在這裏已不像以前那麽恐怖了。</p>
<p>以後還會有變化的。我認爲如果把唐人街變成花園而不是墳墓的話,我們必須多做一些努力。這些努力不僅僅要靠我們這一代領導人,還包括第二代移民的領導。因爲如果我們這一代不能夠打開局面,坐下來探討,找出對我們社區最有利的問題,<br>
抛卻自己個人想法和計劃而共同合作的話,如果我們做不到這些,我們就不會有發展。我們只是維持老樣子,某一時間變得稍好一些,某一時間又變得糟糕。但我確實寄許多希望于第二代移民。第二代移民,我自己應該是第一代。我希望第二代移民能夠具備足夠的技能,講好幾種語言,普通話,英語,廣州話,而許多福建人已經能夠講這三種語言,我是說年輕的一代能夠講兩或三種語言。我有幾個員工都是福建人,他們能講英文,廣東話,普通話,都沒有問題。</p>
<p>我的意思是說,第二代移民與年輕的第一代移民合作,他們能夠做的事情要比我們這一代人多得多。因爲如果我們這代人仍然保持那老一套思想的話,我們很難做出什麽成績出來。但我看到我們第二代移民的觀念在轉變。第二代移民就是那些在美國土生土長的中國人後裔(ABC, American Born Chinese),我所說的年輕的第一代移民是指那些在十幾歲的時候就來美國的移民,他們目睹過這些移民的奮鬥和存在的問題。因此,如果這兩代人能在一起合作的話,我肯定他們會把唐人街改變成爲一個花園,而不是一塊墓地。</p>
<p>但他們確實需要在一起合作和交流,比如在學校裏。有的時候,一些ABC取笑新的移民,“噢,你的英語講得不好。”但那些新移民也會嘲笑他們,“噢,你說你自己是中國人,不害臊,你連中文都不會講。”如果他們繼續那種心態,那他們還要面對另外一種衝突。我希望我們要盡我們所能,至少要教育我們的孩子,教育我們的第二代和年輕的新一代移民要打開局面,爲唐人街的美好的未來團結起來,在同一個社區裏共同生活、努力奮鬥。</p>
<p>問:非常感謝你今天能跟我們談你的觀點和對未來的展望。還有其他什麽我還沒有問到或是你要補充的嗎?</p>
<p>葉:沒有了,你已經提出了很多非常好的問題,我感覺你對這個社區以及他們的奮鬥也很瞭解,當然從這個美洲華人博物館,<br>
我能想象你對這裏的過去和現在都有瞭解。希望你們能夠做更多的事情把唐人街建設得更好。我認爲知曉歷史能使人更加明智。如果不知道歷史,我們不知道過去曾經發生過什麽。歷史是如此重要,我希望更多的第二代移民和新移民的孩子能夠有機會學習更多唐人街的歷史,這樣的採訪會幫助他們懂得我們所經歷過的奮鬥和麵臨的困難,希望這些事情不會在將來再次發生。尤其是這個福建人社區,在我們同FEMA,政府官員,聯邦和當地各級官員舉行的關於9/11的會議後,我們已向他們講述了許多關於這個社區的事情,我堅信,如果紐約市或這個國家的其他地方再發生類似的事件或災難,他們會應付得更好,會照顧到每一個社區,不僅是聽取民衆的意見,而且會進行調查以便發現哪些社區尚未得到幫助,以及爲什麽沒有得到幫助。因爲他們如果撥款出去,他們勢必需要讓那些得到款項的機構負責。因爲這些基金是從各種渠道籌集到的,有一些是來自普通的民衆,有一些是來自富人。顯然我們一定要把錢投入到有需要的社區和民衆。</p>
<p>我認爲在開過這麽多會議之後,他們肯定已經對唐人街的結構有了更深層次的瞭解。據我瞭解,他們的工作小組已經有了一些初步的計劃。當你爲一個社區服務的時候,你不單單要看一個群體。就好象是福建人社區,我們稱它是少數群體裏的少數群體。因此,他們確實需要幫助。</p>
<p>因此,我認爲這會幫助我們更好地理解我們的工作,因爲華人社區是一個整體,但在華人社區裏你還有一些少數群體,比如福建人。我感覺其他社區可能會有同樣的問題。因此,我希望那些政府官員,負責分發基金的國家和地方的官員和<br>
辦事人員在發放救濟金的時候能夠更加專業和細心,每個人都要對此負任。</p>
<p>這樣才會幫助到所有需要幫助的人,而不僅僅是那些恰巧知道如何得到幫助的人。有很多人有時並不知道如何尋求幫助,因爲他們受到強烈的衝擊,是如此的絕望,以至於他們不知道怎樣尋求幫助。因此,我希望我今天談的一些東西會有所幫助,希望這些會成爲歷史。</p>
<p>問:福建社區非常幸運能有你在這裏幫助他們。</p>
<p>我今天採訪的是來自Lutheran Church True Light的Henry Ye。非常感謝你能抽出時間跟我們分享你的觀點。我是鄭愛蘭。謝謝你。</p>
<p>Ye:謝謝。</p>
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Henry Ye
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interview
-
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
S.W. Sang
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-03-10
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
jeweler
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: Today is March 11, 2004. We are at the Museum of Chinese
Americans. Please say you name.</p>
<p>
Sang: My family name is Sang, and my name is Zhuo Huai, S.W. Sang.
</p>
<p>
Q: How long have you been in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Sang: I have been here since October of 1969.</p>
<p>
Q: Where are you from?</p>
<p>
Sang: I used to live in Macau. In 1966, I went to Dominica in
Central America, and in 1969 October, I came to the United States.</p>
<p>
Q: Were you born in Macau?</p>
<p>
Sang: No. I was born in China.</p>
<p>
Q: Where of China?</p>
<p>
Sang: I was born in Yanping, China.
</p>
<p>
Q: Which year?</p>
<p>
Sang: 1946.</p>
<p>
Q: Where in the Mainland were you born?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yanping Province, China.</p>
<p>
Q: You went to Macau when you were nine years old. Why?</p>
<p>
Sang: This is because my whole family has left for Macau.</p>
<p>
Q: You went from China to Macau?</p>
<p>
Sang: Since my father was in preparation to move to Venezuela, my
family went to Macau. I was studying in Macau.</p>
<p>
Q: What kind of images and memories do you have for China? You must
have remembered much, since you were already nine.</p>
<p>
Sang: I certainly remember; very much so. The area of Yanping was
poor. Many of our villagers went overseas. Going overseas means
going out to another country and work. This had more future to it.
Because of this, our villagers like to leave the country, for the
United States, for Central Americas. Most of them, however, went to
Dominican Republic.</p>
<p>
Q: How did you enter there? Did you sneak in country? Did you apply
for entry?</p>
<p>
Sang: We did not sneak into the country. We first apply as tourists.
Once we were in there for six months, we applied for resident
status.</p>
<p>
Q: That’s quite easy.</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes, it was very easy.</p>
<p>
Q: When your family was still in China,
what was your family business?</p>
<p>
Sang: My grandfather used to own a factory in China, where he
manufactured bricks and various construction materials. However,
when the communists came, all of the properties were confiscated.
This way, our family was not able to make a living, so we had to
leave the country.</p>
<p>
Q: Why did you go to Southern America?</p>
<p>
Sang: This was because most of our extended families and friends were
there in South America. Santa Domingo, Dominican Republic.</p>
<p>
Q: You already have a few generations there?</p>
<p>
Sang: Not a few generations, just from my generation. But my
grandfather had gone to Venezuela for almost forty years.</p>
<p>
Q: When you were nine, you whole family moved to Macau?</p>
<p>
Sang: Part of the family. My mother, two brothers and I left first.
Afterward, my grandmother came with the other two brothers. We were
all living in Macau.</p>
<p>
Q: What about your father?</p>
<p>
Sang: My father was in Hong Kong involved in the Bakery Business. He
made bread at his factory, wholesale and distribute them to places
such as coffee shops.</p>
<p>
Q: This is to say, your father has gone for Hong Kong at an earlier
time.</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: For how long did you live in Macau?</p>
<p>
Sang: I lived in Macau for eleven years.</p>
<p>
Q: In terms of studying, were you there for both Grade School and
High School?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yeah, I went to St. Joseph for both.</p>
<p>
Q: When you were in Macau, were you studying Chinese or were you
studying English? Did you study English?</p>
<p>
Sang: There were both English and Chinese.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you study Portuguese?</p>
<p>
Sang: I understand a little. This is because I understand Spanish,
and Portuguese is similar to Spanish.</p>
<p>
Q: How old were you went you went to - -?</p>
<p>
Sang: Twenty years old.</p>
<p>
Q: It was Dominican Republic, wasn’t it?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: How did you feel when you got there?</p>
<p>
Sang: I was there, apprenticing under an uncle, who did watch
repairing work. I was also learning the things related to the
Jewelry business.</p>
<p>
Q: You were in Macau until you were
twenty. Did you go to college there?</p>
<p>
Sang: No. I left not too long after I finished with high school. In
Macau, there was no college there. The highest education you could
attend was high school.</p>
<p>
Q: When you were in your teen years, did you think about what kind of
career paths you would take when you grow up? Perhaps leaving the
country?</p>
<p>
Sang: My great hope was to become a medical doctor, but there weren’t
many chances for me to continue college to become one. But now, I am
very fortunate. I couldn’t become a doctor, and became a
jeweler. When you are designing and making jewelry, you don’t
have to be responsible for people’s lives. If you are a
doctor, you are held responsible for lives. So, I feel I am lucky
that I did not become a doctor, and that I am doing what I am doing.</p>
<p>
Q: When you were twenty years old, did you already have family
members in South America?</p>
<p>
Sang: No. All of them were in Macau. Only I went. I went to work
for an uncle who was from the same village.</p>
<p>
Q: When you were there, what kind of works were you doing?</p>
<p>
Sang: I was involved with watch repair, and the jewelry business.</p>
<p>
Q: At that time, the place you were, were there much Chinese?</p>
<p>
Sang: At there, during that time, there were approximately a few
thousands people. In our shop there were fifteen people working,
some did watch repairing, some did watch selling & buying, and
some were involved in the jewelry business.</p>
<p>
Q: After you went there, did you feel
that it was easy and quick to get used to the new way of life?</p>
<p>
Sang: We were happy. Back then, the brotherly apprentices were
always playing football (soccer). Life was good, very good, indeed.
The way of life was very different from the lifestyles of Macau, Hong
Kong and the United States.
</p>
<p>
Q: How are they different?</p>
<p>
Sang: In Spanish places, people’s characters are passionate,
and very friendly. They do not discriminate against the Chinese.
They thought highly of the Chinese, and therefore there is no
discrimination. That’s better.</p>
<p>
Q: You only started learning Spanish once you moved there?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes. There were a bunch of us working there. We hired a
lawyer. There, we worked in the morning, and at night, once the
lawyer got off from his day job, he would then teach us. He
collected ten dollars per week per person. We made a blackboard and
started learning Spanish.</p>
<p>
Q: How long did you study for you to understand?</p>
<p>
Sang: In terms of studying, one can speak after around two years of
studying, and approximately three to four years in order to write a
little.</p>
<p>
Q: While you were there, had you always been involved with repairing?</p>
<p>
Sang: I was working - - repairing watches.</p>
<p>
Q: During that time, did you ever consider going back to school to
become a doctor again?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Sang: No. During that time, I had already started in this job, and I
could not change anymore. As I continued working, there were
pressure and responsibilities. At that time, I did not think about
studying. The most important thing was to make a living. During
that time, the first thing was to make money.</p>
<p>
Q: Money can be made in this profession?</p>
<p>
Sang: Over there, I worked for three years. I already came out and
started my own business after three years. I opened my own store,
and became my own boss.</p>
<p>
Q: How many years were you living there on your own?</p>
<p>
Sang: Three some years. Not quite four years.</p>
<p>
Q: After you came to the United States?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes, I came to the United States.</p>
<p>
Q: How did you - - Did someone sponsor you over there? Or did you do
it your own?</p>
<p>
Sang: During the time when I came over, I already have colleagues who
worked at big factories in the United States. It appeared that those
jobs were stable. Also, in our profession, during those times, the
pay was quite decent. It was around one hundred twenty, one hundred
thirty dollars per week.
</p>
<p>
Q: That was in 1960s?
</p>
<p>
Sang: Back then, when you take a regular job at a restaurant, it
would be around seventy-five to a hundred dollar per week. In this
case, we made more money. Not to mention, the work was more
comfortable, since it was more technical in nature, it was never - -
Originally, when I first came over here, my
father-in-law was in the restaurant business. He wanted to teach me
the business. But when I saw the actual restaurant, wow - - I saw
the head chef, while pushing a button with his foot, twisting and
turning his body all around. I really felt I would not be able to do
that. I like cooking. My mother used to teach me how to cook. I
love cooking. But this was too tough. I thought I better stick with
what I was dong in the Jewelry business.</p>
<p>
Q: When you come to the United States, did you also come as a
tourist? Or did you apply to come over here?</p>
<p>
Sang: For the first time, I came over here as tourist. When I came
the second time, I also came as a tourist. Afterward, I was working
at a workshop that was owned by a Jew. When it was about time, I
applied for residency.</p>
<p>
Q: When you were at the Jewish place, you were also doing repairing
work?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yeah, repairing watches.</p>
<p>
Q: You came to New York when you first came into the country in
1969?</p>
<p>
Sang: No. That was 1970, not 1969. It’s exactly 1970.</p>
<p>
Q: You came to New York when you first came?</p>
<p>
Sang: I came to New York, when I first came here.</p>
<p>
Q: Why did you choose to come to New York? The United States is so
big.</p>
<p>
Sang: This was because before when I came to visit, I saw some
Chinese supermarkets. I saw that they have everything kind of
Chinese food available. That was suitable to the Chinese palate.
For me, the most important thing was to be able to eat. In Dominican
Republic, those Spanish places, there
also were plenty food products. But here, there have every kind of
Chinese food products that I care about. For this reason, I came.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you consider going to San Francisco, other places with Chinese
- -</p>
<p>
Sang: Since many of my friends were in New York, I considered coming
to New York.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you feel it was hard to adjust when you came over here?
Winter is very cold here. Many things are different. Were you able
to communicate - -</p>
<p>
Sang: We got used to it, since we were young, and we liked playing
football (soccer), and sports - - I am quite active and outgoing, so
it was quite easy to adapt to the environment. I did not feel cold
at all.</p>
<p>
Q: When you came over, did you know English?</p>
<p>
Sang: I knew a little. I understood it when I was studying in Macau.
While I was - - When I was studying Spanish at Dominican Republic, I
studied the language using English. I learn them together.</p>
<p>
Q: You were twenty-something when you came over?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: That was quite young.</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: What did you do when you first came over? But - -</p>
<p>
Sang: When I first came over I repaired
watches. After working for that westerner for a year, I got
residency. After working for about a year, I immediately came out
and opened my own business. Along with a friend, I opened my own
shop, in Harlem even! You dare not go over there, but the rent was
cheap. Back then, it was only one hundred and twenty dollars. I
said, “Okay, let’s rent the space out, open up the shop,
learn as I do!” I was trying to figure out what the American
jewelry market was like. To be honest, when I first opened there, I
was not thinking of making profits at the beginning. I wanted to
first dive into the profession, observed the market, and figured out
the business.
</p>
<p>
Q: During those years, was rent in Chinatown expensive? You had to
go to Harlem?</p>
<p>
Sang: No. Since during those years, I had a bunch of friends living
up there. He saw a - - It was because I had a villager-friend opened
up a restaurant in front of that space. The restaurant was called
“Hua Ting”. He operated that restaurant for twenty some
thirty years, and it is now closed. He told me there was retail
space right in front of his restaurant, and the rent was cheap. He
suggested me to open up the shop up there. He said there were many
Spanish people there, and that the Spanish people’s business
was the best. I told myself to give it a try. After around a year,
my partner and I already made around eighty-thousand,
hundred-thousand dollars. Then, we had another partner, and opened
another shop at Concord Ave of the Bronx. In this way, I had two
shops. After a year and half, we again made around a hundred,
two-hundred thousand dollars. At this time, I went to open up a new
store at 225 Canal Street, which has remained opened until today.</p>
<p>
Back then, around 1971, after around a year, I opened up a second
shop in Bronx, where my partner was the shop manager. I was the
overseeing the shop that was located at 157<sup>th</sup> Street and
Broadway. Alan was looking after the upper shop. After around half
a year, I found a retail space, and moved down to Canal Street. That
was in 1973.</p>
<p>
Q: It sounds as if you were very brave. You were only
twenty-something.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Sang: Is that right? I don’t think so. I certainly - - One
must be brave. Being a human, one must be brave. Back then, my next
door neighbor was a bank. There was a bank robbery. There were
three machine guns at the entrance. I could only run. Three machine
guns in Harlem bank! Even the police cars turned around!</p>
<p>
Q: Is it true that since you were able to speak Spanish, you were
able to communicate with those customers - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Yeah, I was able to communicate. So - - But it was also easier
work back then. There was less competition. Not too many people
were in the business, and the business was good. Many of my
villager-friends, families and friends told me I should never get
involved in the business. They told me in the United States that no
Chinese were involved in the jewelry business.</p>
<p>
Q: Before you came to the United States, what kind of impressions did
you have?</p>
<p>
Sang: About the United States. Since I often read history, news and
current affairs, I understood that United States was the only country
that had a modern society and had the strongest economic development.
Also, since the dollar was stable, business was also stable.
Especially to us hard worker types, we were certain to become
successful. All we needed was a little confidence.</p>
<p>
Q: Before you came, did you already have a family?</p>
<p>
Sang: Not yet.</p>
<p>
Q: When you first came over, what did you think Chinatown was like in
1970s?</p>
<p>
Sang: Confucius Plaza had not been built yet, during those years in
Chinatown. There were many broken, abandoned houses. There were
warning signs reminding people to be
aware
of pickpocket. It was about being careful of people stealing things
from you. There were only a few broken down houses around where
Confucius Plaza is now. I lived near the side of East Broadway,
right next to the post office.</p>
<p>
Q: During those times, the area definitely was not as large as it is
now?</p>
<p>
Sang: The area was not as big as it is now. Also, back then, the
people - - Almost every time I went out, I knew everyone. In other
words, when you’re in Chinatown, you knew everyone. Everyone
knows everyone else. There were less people during those times.</p>
<p>
Q: A little more intimate?</p>
<p>
Sang: A little more intimate, since everyone knew everyone. You knew
everyone where you managed your business, and where you hung out.
It’s not possible these days. You can’t meet all of them
now.</p>
<p>
Q: After you came to the United States, did you feel that it was
difficult? For everything, you had to - -
</p>
<p>
Sang: It had been smooth. It had been very smooth.</p>
<p>
Q: Why had it been so smooth for you?</p>
<p>
Sang: It was because I have confidence. I am hard-working and
aggressive. Yeah.
</p>
<p>
Q: These things had allow you to conduct your businesses so smoothly?</p>
<p>
Sang: Right. You’re not incorrect.</p>
<p>
Q: In which year did you open your store in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Sang: It was seventy - - Let me see --
It was 1972. In 1972, I moved down to Chinatown. But in 1971, I
already opened one in Bronx. Somewhere in the middle of 1972, I
don’t remember quite well of the exact date. In any case, I
moved down to Chinatown, and it was 225 Canal Street, right at the
corner of Centre Street. Also, I was the first Chinese who rented a
space to do Jewelry business.</p>
<p>
Q: Back then in 1970s, were there many triads in Chinatown? Did you
feel a great sense of danger being in this business?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yeah, I did not feel that at all. Because - - Why? In our
business, we certainly had to be careful of entrances and windows.
One has to be aware of these things. But it was not that dangerous.
Since I was brave enough to open a shop in Harlem, I wouldn’t
feel dangerous opening one up on Canal Street.</p>
<p>
Q: Have you ever experienced a robbery? And let other - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes, many times indeed. People just grab and ran. Or in
another case, you’re at gun point, and you could only wait for
him to pick and leave.</p>
<p>
Q: Were your family members ever - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes, they had.</p>
<p>
Q: But, you still are not scared?</p>
<p>
Sang: No, I am not scared. I - - When people come robbing me, I told
them to just take the things away, and don’t be nervous. I
told them the first thing is not to be nervous, just take what they
want, and leave.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you carry guns?</p>
<p>
Sang: I cannot carry gun. If I was to
carry guns, I must have already killed a few times. But I don’t
like to react with carry guns. Right now it’s just robbery,
right? If I was to carry guns, it would either be him shooting at
you, or you shooting at him. That’s not good. In our
business, it would be dangerous if you own guns.</p>
<p>
Q: Back then in early 1970s, even though there were many triads, did
you have to contribute to one particular gang - -</p>
<p>
Sang: No, I have not.</p>
<p>
Q: - - to protect you?</p>
<p>
S: The triad society indeed asked for money, but not on our side. In
the 1970, although there was instability, it does not mean that they
robbed in Chinatown every day. I established Canal Street Jewelry
Merchant Association. I was the president and hired six security
guards to guard the street. I handled them. These are armed guards.
They carried pistols to watch out every block. The robbers went
elsewhere but not to us.</p>
<p>
Q: Are you paying them personally?</p>
<p>
S: No, they belonged to the Association.
</p>
<p>
Q: Association?</p>
<p>
S. Every member paid the association three hundred dollars. I am the
organizer and the president. I collected the money and paid the
guards. I was also the accountant. If the other stores did not pay, I
paid for them.
</p>
<p>
Q: As a Chinese, what differences are there between being a
Chinese-American in the United States, and in South America? In
terms of how an American view the Chinese as to how a Southern
American view the Chinese?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Sang: I believe, when you interact with people - - If you really are
competent or are knowledgeable in certain area, people would not look
down on you. Unless you doing some bad things, or behavior - - In
this case, not to mention foreigners, even the Chinese would look
down upon you. I don’t feel so. I often do not feel that I
was discriminated against. For example, when I first opened a
jewelry shop, there were a group of Jews that had stores on Canal
Street. When they saw a Chinese came opening up a ship, one of them
said, “Hey Chinese, you should open doing something else, such
as opening a restaurant, or selling food else where. Why did you
come getting involved in our businesses?” He first used a
discriminatory, make-fun style. But I was very polite and explained
to him. I told him, “Long time ago, in Egypt, even before the
birth of Christ. The Jews were enslaved by Egyptian kings to build
pyramids. When Mosses brought those Jews back to the Middle-east,
they had much trouble with the region, and had no where to go. They
followed the path of the Silk Road, and entered China in the Tang
Dynasty. There were some twenty some thousands Jews entered China.
This was the first time us Chinese protected you Jews during your
hard times. The second time was during the Second World War, when
Hitler was killing the Jews ferociously and cruelly. Did you have a
place to run and hide? Only we China accepted you and you settled in
Shanghai. During two major hard times, we Chinese have saved you.
You cannot discriminate against us. We are your friends.”</p>
<p>
Q: And then you said - -</p>
<p>
Sang: - - (the Jew responded) “Hey Chinese, don’t tell us
this story anymore.” I said, “If you want to hear more
history, I will tell you more.” He said, “in other
words, one should not discriminate against others.”</p>
<p>
Q: This means, you have to use historical logic to argue, in order to
- -</p>
<p>
Sang: That’s not it. If you are intelligent, no one can
discriminate you. They dare not look down on you. They would
respect you. The most important thing is yourself, right?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: You came to the United States and opened shops. Did you continue
to operate the two shops in Harlem?</p>
<p>
Sang: Not anymore. I moved the stores from Harlem to Canal Street.
</p>
<p>
Q: How many shops do you have now?</p>
<p>
Sang: I have three now. My wife took care of the old one. I manage
the one located underneath Veteran Association. I also look after
the one right next to my wife’s.</p>
<p>
Q: Where do you live? Now - -</p>
<p>
Sang: I now live in Astoria, Queens.</p>
<p>
Q: You haven’t lived in Chinatown for quite a while?</p>
<p>
Sang: No, I haven’t. I used to live on East Broadway. Yeah.
But I moved in 1979.
</p>
<p>
Q: During the time when you were living in Chinatown, did you feel
that for many Chinese people who lived in Chinatown, Chinatown was
the world to them? They didn’t really go out to other places
in New York. It seemed to be a rather small place. Was your life,
similar to that?</p>
<p>
Sang: No, since we like to travel every year to another place.
Also, I have a bunch of friends any where I go. Sometimes I go visit
my friends. We do not live a closed way of life. Our generations
move along the currents and trends of times. In other words, we are
not like those old uncles, who never stepped out of Chinatown. They
have been in Chinatown for tens of years, yet they stayed in
Chinatown mostly, and have not even got on the subway. We are
definitely not like that.</p>
<p>
Q: Back in the 1970s, did you think
that the neighbors were united in Chinatown? During those times,
they mostly were Toishanese and Cantonese. Was it not as complicated
as it is today, wasn’t it?</p>
<p>
Sang: Generally speaking, eighty percents of the population were
Toishanese. Back then, for us Hakainese, our friends were mostly
Toishanese. Yeah.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you feel that the Chinatown back then, was more united than it
is today? In other words, it was not as complicated as it is now.
Currently, there are more different kinds of people.</p>
<p>
Sang: I feel that it depends on which aspects you’re talking
about. If you say things are complicated, I feel that it is so in
terms of different opinions and point of views. It is definitely not
so when it comes to an individual, and the relationship between an
individual and society. In other words, when you say the situation
is complicated, it is only true at your personal level as an
individual experience. I do not feel it is true at the societal
level.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you not feel that Chinatown is not untied? The Cantonese,
Toishanese, Fujianese - -
</p>
<p>
Sang: Definitely not so. I treat Fujianese, Toishanese, as well as
my villagers, all the same. In my heart - - even when I overheard my
friends being unfriendly to someone else because they’re
Toishanese, or Fujianese, I would explain to them with reasoning, and
that they shouldn’t. How can the Chinese discriminate our own
kind? I have all kinds of clients, some are Spanish, and some are
Africans. I have been treating them equally all along.</p>
<p>
Q: Perhaps you personally - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Right.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: - - is like that. But for plenty of Chinese, we are not united
in Chinatown. Therefore, we don’t have power. Because many
associations are not unified, everyone has their own opinions. How
do you - -</p>
<p>
Sang: I feel that, compare to what it used to be, I rarely
participated those social clubs and community activities. But most
recently, at times, a bunch of my friends would invite me to come out
and participate. A little more contact. I think for us Chinese,
community organizations and clubs such as “family name”
associations, are very Chinese. These are invaluable cultures. A
group of villagers coming together, and helping each other out when
there’s a problem, like borrowing money. Or when there’re
issues, family quarrels, there a group to solve the problem.
Externally, whether you and another organizations - - in other words,
to be together. Of course, when one comes together with another
person for a short time, they cannot come along. Of course, when the
points of view are different, whether it’s at the
business-level, or at the national-level, these views need to be
brought out. Everyone should be understanding. Sometimes we argue.
No big deal, as long as everyone should come up with something
truthful, and work at it together. It ought to be done this way.
This is true for both society and nation. I am part of many
committees, but I have never fought with anyone. No one ever yelled
at me before. I have some many committees, but I could only do it
together. The only way is to discuss all different opinions and come
to agreement.</p>
<p>
Q: Ever since you came to the United States, have you considered
return to Macau, or visiting for leisure.</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes. I have gone back for vacation. When I went back, a bunch
of classmates, a bunch of friends, and - -</p>
<p>
Q: But have you thought about moving back to leave? Moving back - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Definitely not. My children grew
up here, studied here. You see - - family is most important. My
business is also here, so I wound not - -</p>
<p>
Q: If this is the case, it seems that the business of your stores is
quite successful, isn’t it?</p>
<p>
Sang: I feel that I am quite satisfied when I can support my family.
Because for all of us, the most important thing is to feel satisfied.
Also we need to have confidence. We live in this way, in order to -
-</p>
<p>
Q: Now we’re back in time, during 9/11.</p>
<p>
Sang: Right.</p>
<p>
Q: The year during the 9/11 incident, were you in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes, I was in Chinatown. I was on my way to work - -</p>
<p>
Q: Do you remember - -</p>
<p>
Sang: My car was at Delancey, when the first airplane hit there. I
thought it was a fire accident. I was still at Delancey and Bowery,
right at the corner, and saw smoke coming out of the windows.</p>
<p>
Q: Afterward, how did it affect your business?</p>
<p>
Sang: Right after 9/11 happened, we were closed for three days,
because the smoke - -those smoke have covered all of Chinatown. The
air was not comfortable. Also, I felt the air was still very
uncomfortable. In other words, when you breathed the air, it was
very filthy. That’s why we did not go back, and remained
unopened for three days.</p>
<p>
Q: During those three days, was there any burglary? Did anyone cause
any problems?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Sang: Definitely not. That time everyone knew what had happened,
since telecommunications was so advanced in the United States. In
everyone minds, they were asking questions such as how do you we
protect this country, and were thinking how best to protect this
country. I don’t believe in those things happening, and there
definitely no burglary. I feel that New York has improved, and the
quality of people has improved.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was your business affected, I mean, after the 3 days closing down?</p>
<p>
Sang: Of course, the aftermath was immense. A lot of my customers
came from World Trade Center, such as staff from Merrill Lynch,
Lehman Brothers. They used to skip their lunch and came to us for our
watches, and wedding bands. Now they all moved elsewhere and never
return to us.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you mean a lot of your customers were not from Chinatown but a
lot of them from Wall Street?</p>
<p>
Sang: That’s right.</p>
<p>
Q: American besides Wall Street came to you also?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q. About how much was the business loss?</p>
<p>
Sang: From time to time, shortly after 9/11, only thirty percents of
business was retained. Then, business increased gradually. Up to now,
we are still twenty five and thirty percents behind.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you apply for 9/11 assistance?</p>
<p>
S: I did not apply directly. One time,
they mailed us a form to subsidize rent. I filled it out and I
received four thousand dollars at one time and three thousand dollars
another time. Approximately, I received seven thousand dollars.</p>
<p>
Q: Did your rent increase in recent years?</p>
<p>
Sang: The rent increased gradually?</p>
<p>
Q: 9/11 did not affect the scope of increase?</p>
<p>
Sang: We have to pay in accordance to a signed lease that agreed to
have rent increase at interval. Because of 9/11, the landlord waived
us one month’s rent.</p>
<p>
Q: But I feel that when I walk around in Chinatown, it seems that
there are less gold shops as before, isn’t it?</p>
<p>
Sang: No. It has been the same. Not less. There shouldn’t be
less.</p>
<p>
Q: Compare to in the past - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Yeah, approximately the same.</p>
<p>
Q: - - approximately the same to before 9/11?</p>
<p>
Sang: Right.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you feel that there are less Chinese customers? Because during
these few years, economy has become much worst, perhaps when people
do buy gold and watches, they don’t spend as much money as
before. Not spending as much - -</p>
<p>
Sang: When you compare it to the past,
according to my understating, with regard to the market - - Since
nowadays, the Americans has
</p>
<p>
[END OF SIDE ONE; BEGIN SIDE TWO]
</p>
<p>
experienced a phenomenon and their understanding have increased. The
knowledge of economics has also deepened. It’s interesting.
When there’s opportunity in the stock market, everyone rushed
to buy stocks. But ever since the burst of the internet (bubble),
everyone feels that once it becomes unstable, you lost all your
money. They now buy houses. They buy their first house to live in.
They buy their second one for investment purpose. Should you have a
son getting married, then you buy another one. If each family has
from one to three mortgages, and contributes money to these
mortgages, their cash flows are locked completely by these mortgages.
Our economy is like this. For example, if you’re selling a
house to me, or I sell one to you, after we have signed the papers,
the money is turned around back to the banking systems. That’s
why the bank would overflow with money, yet there would be no cash
flows in the market. This is the reason why a lot of retail
businesses would be down. I used to have a group of young friends
who worked in Merrill Lynch. They came to me, and buy watches from
me. I conversed with them. I have quite an understanding in
financial matters. I like to have conversations with young people,
and I like to talk about how to observe the market, and how the
economy goes. We talked very often, so I see it quite clearly.</p>
<p>
Q: During the thirty some years you were in Chinatown, which period
was best for you? When you business did most well - -</p>
<p>
Sang: The best time was the seven years between 1983 and 1990.
During those seven years, it was the best for the jewelry and retail
businesses. All retail businesses were doing extremely well.</p>
<p>
Q: - - How is your opinion when it
comes to the affects 9/11 has on Chinatown? Do you feel that the
community has become more united ever since this incident? Or do you
feel that it is the same as before?</p>
<p>
Sang: After 9/11, we all felt that it was a time that we should
unite. Many restaurants lost businesses; some lost thirty percents,
while some lost seventy percents. Under such circumstances, during
such difficult time, we all hoped to find a way where we could work
together. In other word, we all work together, and find a way to
turn Chinatown into a better place, and especially in the area of
cleaning it up. We wish we could build up Chinatown a little more.</p>
<p>
Q: On your business card, I saw that you have joined a lot of
different organizations, some are - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Right.</p>
<p>
Q: You are chairmen, presidents, members of many organizations. While
numerous agencies co-exist in a small Chinatown, do you think that
they communicate with each other. Or jewelry association communicates
only with jewelry stores. Restaurant association communicates only
with restaurants. Do they communicate with each other?</p>
<p>
Sang: I wish to share my experience of Chinatown with the community.
Members of the associations should work as a group and share a common
goal. We Chinese used to lead our lives in a closed system, so we are
still primitive. A simple example would be, once I went to a banquet
hosted by the Consulate General of China. Thirty guests sat together.
Twelve different languages were spoken. One of my friends asked why
there are so many dialects in China. Why are there over 10 dialects
in one Guangdong Province? My answer was simple. China was a closed
agricultural society. My villagers would not come to your village. If
you lost a pig, you would suspect that I stole it and ate it. Or you
lost a cow and would say the people in the neighbor village stole it.
The villages quarreled with each other and would not trust each
other. So we spoke our language in a way that liberally
confused you. At the same token, we did not
understand your language. The closed system resulted in primitive
livings for thousands of years. We should open ourselves and
communicate with other, so that you may learn more. Even though you
may not like it, you learn from it.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you mean that these traditions were brought from Mainland China
to Chinatown. Both groups act similarly.
</p>
<p>
Sang: These practices are not correct. We are should communicate a
little more, and try to understand a little more. We should do
different things with friends from different groups and different
levels. In this way, you will increase your talents, which is
knowledge. There are many things that you cannot learn from books.
You have to have people contacts and communicate.
</p>
<p>
Q: What do you think a regular foreigner’s views of Chinatown?
When one first think of Chinatown, what would be the first thought?</p>
<p>
Sing: Firstly, they would want to know the Chinese’s way of
life. But once they came into Chinatown, they will be many things
are different. The Chinese eats different kind of food, and use
different kind of things. So are gift shops and culture. But they
already know that there are many things that are worth while for them
to learn. Most simply, around twenty, thirty years ago, I had an
accountant called Mr. Lee, Mr. Sum-Chi Lee. He was in the accounting
business, and did tax related work on Canal Street. There was “Wang
An” Computer. Wang An was a top-notch computer engineer. He
knew how to make computer at the theoretical level, but he was unable
to apply and materialized mechanically. He came to Mr. Lee’s
place and saw an old man using an abacus. He came to an instant
understanding. He realized that he could now make computer, which
was to design the arrangement of electric circuits as it would be for
an abacus, with numbers moving both horizontally and vertically.
This was where modern day electric circuit design came from. Many
people did not know that the functioning of computer was made
possible by the Chinese Abacus.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: This is to say - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Without Chinese abacus, it would have been impossible to turn
computer into real machine.</p>
<p>
Q: When it comes to the images a foreigner has about Chinatown, you
think that they feel that there are many worthwhile things to learn?
Isn’t it?</p>
<p>
Sang: Right. There are some who know that Chinese food is most rich
and diverse in the world. That is why Jin Wang Kwan won in the
French Chef Competition three times in a role. In other words, it
would be impossible for the world to catch up to the high level of
Chinese cuisine arts.</p>
<p>
Q: Even though there are much Chinese people in New York, yet
politically speaking, our power is still very limited, since many
Chinese do not vote. When it comes to you and your family, do you
participate - -</p>
<p>
Sang: I have been encouraging my friends and my children. I make
them vote, it’s a must. It is us citizens’
responsibility. Secondly, whatever things that we wish to do in
Chinatown, we must have votes as background. In this way, our voice
is louder. If we have city government support, and have their
understating, they would pay more attention to this community.
Similar to the “Chinese Club” in the past two years, they
were very open, and often times host speeches and receptions for
state governors. If we maintain constant communications with them,
we will be able to ask them directly whenever we need something from
them. They would give us a little more attention. We have to do it
this way. Whether it’s a successful effort is a different
matter. But our attitudes toward the community should be this way.</p>
<p>
Q: You have been living in the United States for some thirty years.
Do you feel that you are a Chinese living in the United States? Or
are you already a Chinese-American?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Sang: I am definitely a Chinese-American. I have already gained
citizenship, right? But I would not deny the Chinese culture that I
have internalized. I have a better understanding of Chinese culture,
so my interests are also more Chinese.</p>
<p>
Q: According to you, what do you think are the biggest issues in
Chinatown now?</p>
<p>
Sang: When it comes to the biggest issues, I think the first one is
transportation. Second one would be sanitary problem. The third
issue would be economics. Our economy is under threat ever since we
lost the clothing factories. Those women, who used to work in those
factories, now have to adapt and take new professions such as health
care. This transformation has to be gradual. Other than
transformation, the Chinatown business model also has to change into
more tourism focused, more tourists-oriented, besides the traditional
sales technique to attract middle aged women. We should provide
products that fit the American markets, while attracting tourists
with high consuming power to spend money here. In other word, we
need to turn Chinatown into a cultural and tourist center. For our
economic survival, we have to build Chinatown up in this direction.
We should employ a liberal approach. We cannot act the way we used
to, thinking and satisfying on the limited businesses that the
clothing factories provided. The old way how bosses could go to
Atlantic City and spend tens of thousands on the gambling tables, is
not possible nowadays. We have to treat our community more
seriously, while pushing for its transformation. That’s why I
joined Rebuild Chinatown Association - -</p>
<p>
Q: You mean NYC Promotion & Tourism Association, right?</p>
<p>
Sang: Yeah, that one.</p>
<p>
Q: NYC Promotion & Tourism Association existed even before the
9/11 incident. We hope to spread whatever news we have of Chinatown.
We want the media to promote for us, and let them understand
Chinatown, and understand Chinese cultures. Quite interesting - -
One time we were hosting a group of media, including journalists from
New York, and a woman form the state
department. She was the head in promoting ethnic culture. I forgot
her name. When she came, we brought her around Chinatown for a grand
tour, and brought her to Chinatown for dim sum. We went to Good
Harmony Restaurant for Dim sum. She asked, “It is now eight
thirty, why there are so many people here for breakfast? Is it
because they did not have dinner last night?” I told her not.
I said for the Chinese, the most important thing after you get up is
to “Yum Cha”. “Yum Cha” is an old habit of
Chinese that date back to thousands of years. When it comes to “Yum
Cha”, you can see that over there is a group of older men
reading a paper together. They would discuss the current events of
the day, whether it’s political or politics, all is discussed
here. You can also see other tables, where there are children. They
are families. They could be discussing family affairs, or it could
also be someone’s birthday today. And the table next to it,
you can see a bunch of business people, with their business suits.
It’s possible that if a man owns another, money, and he would
be invited to “Yum Cha” the next say. Then, you will
have to remember to bring five hundred dollar to return to the
lender. Here, you do business, family meeting, business meeting, as
well as community leaders discussing community affairs are all here.
That’s why for us Chinese, we don’t have to pay to go to
those psychologists, those psychiatrists. We all get heal here.
Whatever problems that we have, you come out, talk to a friend and
you are cured. The psychologists know nothing about your personal
life. But your friends understand you, and they can solve your
problem. So I feel that in the western world, this kind of culture
does not exist. “Oh, you guys are real smart!” (Said the
woman representative) Whenever we have problems about business, we
just need to invite them out. Whatever that’s not right, you
discuss here until all is right. Why engage in meeting? You have to
meeting this and meeting that. Here, we agree on everything. When
we eat and discuss enthusiastically, it’s easier to smooth
things down, and less arguments. If I talk business to you, should
there be anything wrong, I would not slam the table and start
yelling. The westerners would slam tables and start yelling whenever
there’s something wrong during meeting. We can’t do that
because we have tables around us. It would not be good if other
people see us. The most we could do was to yell quietly. She said,
“I have never heard anything like this!” I replied,
“That’s why I am telling you now. If you want to write a
book, a novel - - if you wish to learn the
traditional Chinese cultures, and values – In other
words, many people are not familiar this kind of lifestyles, but if
you’re sensitive, you may gradually come to an understanding.
You will be able to write them down as content for your novel.”</p>
<p>
Q: Previously I asked you, what the biggest issues are in Chinatown.
During this project, I also have spoken with a number of neighbors.
It seems like they are either of; transportation, sanitary, rents,
and housing issues. - - Right.</p>
<p>
Sang: These things are very important.</p>
<p>
Q: Even though everyone knows what the problems are. But how come
after ten, twenty years, the problems are still to be solved? Why is
Chinatown still dirty, still so cramped?</p>
<p>
Sang: But I feel that - - Let us begin with the housing issue. I
remember those days in the seventies, when the Confucius Plaza was
being built. There were many vacant apartments, which took quite a
while to be rented out. Not too many people applied for them.
Gradually, there were more immigrants, but at the same times, many
Jews moved away in the East side, while the Italians were also moving
out of Little Italy. But right now, it is completely full. That is
why housing is such a problem. Even if there were space now, it
would be very expensive. A Square feet of space would cost around a
few hundred dollars, but it would still be bought to build houses.
These houses could be sold for at least six, seven hundred dollars
per square feet. Population density has increased, city’s
value has increased, but when it comes to sanitation - - That is why
there exists an organization called Clean Chinatown Campaign. Ever
since Bill Lam and Danny Lee organized this club, I have been
supporting them every way I can, such as soliciting members and
others to donate money. I have been quite passionate with my effort,
they all know that. Compare to a decade ago, there has been a great
improvement since ten years ago. Chinatown is much cleaner now,
don’t you think? But it’s not as perfect as - -
</p>
<p>
Q: Midtown.</p>
<p>
Sang: Right, as Midtown or Park Avenue.
This is because they do not have as many people and tourists. Also,
the density of traffic is also not as high as here. Like when it’s
Saturday and Sunday, there are ten to twenty thousands people rushing
into here, and turn it into - - When there are more people, then
inevitably it’d be dirtier. That is the reason why we have
been educating people, and tell them not to throw trash on the
street. Most simply, for example, there was this one time, I was on
the street. I saw a woman threw a paper bag on the street. Next to
this woman was her friend which I knew personally. This mutual
friend saw me, and said to her friend, ‘People are promoting
clean Chinatown, why don’t you pick up the trash?’ In
other words, it is important to educate people and let them know it’s
important to keep streets clean. That is why in the future, we will
record a Sang about how cleaning is everyone’s responsibility.
We are trying to see whether we could get Jackie Chan to sing it, and
broadcast it publicly, and remind people not to carelessly throw
trash on the street. We still have to hire people to clean the
streets, and change those trash bags. Chinatown is much better than
before. Back in those days, those garbage treatment companies did
not care at all. I later discovered the reason why Chinatown smelled
so bad. It was because those garbage collection trucks, first
collected wet, dampened trash, and after they pressed them, the
liquid would overflow all over. That was the reason why it smelled
bad. I went and spoke with different officers and representatives at
those companies, and told them to change their schedule. I told them
they should collect wet trash at the end of their schedule. In this
case, those liquids would not be overflowing all over Chinatown, and
the bad smell has at least decreased by fifty percents. We have to
pay attention to clean, and be aware to where dirtiness comes from.
But we are unable to - - Since a lot of people come here, and the
fish markets are located in the central area, it would be impossible
to do a perfect job, but we could try our best. To be perfectly
clean means no one could come, which is worst than being dirty.</p>
<p>
Q: It seems that you not only do business in Chinatown, but you also
spend a lot of times doing community services.</p>
<p>
Sang: Yeah.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: - - Your children, do they have the same thoughts?</p>
<p>
Sang: They study. My son is studying at Tufts. He already graduated
from Northwestern University, and worked for two years. After he got
his master degree, he wanted to go for his Ph.D. He told me that
it’s free of charge. I told him to go for it. He studies
philosophy.</p>
<p>
Q: And you - -</p>
<p>
Sang: I would not force them. If the next generation has the
interests, than of course are their choices.</p>
<p>
Q: - - never pressured them to be in your profession?</p>
<p>
Sang: No. Absolutely not.</p>
<p>
Q: The future of your business ……?</p>
<p>
Sang: My sister and brother, they each has one shop. So, if I did
not pass them to my children, I could pass them to my siblings. I
would never do that. My father used to be in the bakery business.
In summer times, he asked me to help him at his bakery. We bought
flour and sugar for three hundred dollars, and at night we could
collect three to four- thousand dollars. It was very profitable,
would you be interested? I said, “But I have no interest, I
still prefer the watches”.</p>
<p>
Q: In other words, you do not pressure your children?</p>
<p>
Sang: No.</p>
<p>
Q: - - what do they do?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Sang: It’s quite interesting. My eldest daughter, graduated
from Swarthmore University. She likes arts. She is now working at
the Education Department of Metropolitan Museum. My youngest one is
studying at Haverford College, in Pennsylvania. She is now in Spain
doing a study abroad program, and won’t come back until June.
I told her, saying that since your brother wouldn’t help me,
and your sister went to work at the Metropolitan Museum, you are my
last hope. Will you help out with the family business? Guess what
she told me? She said, “Daddy, you are talking about your own
dream, you’re not talking about my dream”. You’re
talking about your own dream. You’re not talking about my
dream. It’s difficult, since we have different dreams.</p>
<p>
Q: It has been over two years since 9/11. Do you feel that it has
become as lively as it was before 911, and that the business has
normalized?
</p>
<p>
Sang: The business in Chinatown is still quite quiet. It cannot be
said that it is as lively as it was before. Other than the effects
of 9/11, there is also the influence of the American Economy, where
the real estate market has locked up all the cash flow. This is true
to all businesses in the United States. You remember those times
when the Hong Kong real estates market was speculated by the real
estate companies. They want to push all the poor people back to
their hometowns, in China. Even though they are all economists in
Hong Kong, but what they did was wrong. If there are only a few rich
people in Hong Kong, and have no one to consume in the markets, no
one to cook for you, how can you open up restaurants? No one to make
coffee for you, then you will not have coffee to drink. You life
would be abnormal. You have to - - About the survival in a social
environment - - I wrote a letter to the head of LMDC, John Whitehead.
I said, “For New York to survive, the small businesses must
also survive, in order for the big businesses to survive”.
Just like our planet’s environment, if there lack a grass root
level to absorb all the water, it would become a desert, and big
trees would not be able to grow. There must be much grass, before
the trees grow. All across the world, when there’s no grass,
there’re no trees. You must have grass field to absorb the
water, in order for the big tree to grow. I told him to pay
attention not just to the bigger companies such as
those in II World Trade Center, but also to small
businesses. If there were only big trees, while the small businesses
are bad - - If it’s a desert surrounding a tree, that tree
would surely have no leaves. It will die. I told him that this is
economics. I realize that for New York, seventy percents of company
taxes come from small businesses, while big businesses only
contribute around thirty percents. They called it Small Business
Investigation.
</p>
<p>
Q: Great. We talked about many different things today. Is there
anything else you would like us to know? Is there anything that I
have not already asked? Is there anything you want to share with us?</p>
<p>
Sang: I don’t have any other ideas. But the most important
thing is to promote Chinatown and Chinese culture to everyone in the
United States. We should make them interested in coming here to
learn our Chinese cultures, whether it’s about the food, gifts,
or the jewelry market. Around the world, there is no jewelry markets
that can be compare to what we have here. On forty-seven street,
they only sell American styles. But here, we sell the Chinese
styles, European styles, and American styles. All international
styles can be found in Chinatown. No where else has there a market
that is stronger and better than ours. I wish people would come and
purchase from us, and bring more business to us.</p>
<p>
Q: You are confidence that in the future, the business will pick up?
It will - -</p>
<p>
Sang: Yes, It will. Once the interest rate increased, the property
market will cool off. Once the property market cools off, the cash
flow will not be locked dead, and the retail business will improve.
Just like those days when they speculated in the property market in
Hong Kong. There was a lack of businesses, and all went dead.
Everyone use their money to pay mortgage, while the banks were
soaking up all the money. When you had to store less than a million
dollars at the banks in Hong Kong, you had to pay storage fee to the
bank. They did not even give you interests. They had too much
money. They were speculating the property market. It just like when
you’re on an airplane. If you have all your weights on one
side, it’s dangerous. It’s dangerous for the economy.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. Thank you for your time…
</p>
<p>
Sang: Well said.</p>
<p>
Q: to chat with us. I wish you lots of good Luck.</p>
<p>
Sang: Yeah, thank you.</p>
<p>
(End of session)</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕今天是三月十一號2004年,我們在華人博物館,請你講你的名字。</p>
<p>岑﹕我姓岑, 叫灼槐,岑灼槐。</p>
<p>問﹕你已經在唐人街多少年了﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕一九六九年十月已經來到美國。<br>
<br>
問﹕以前你從那裡來的﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕我以前在澳門住。一九六六年, 多明尼加,中美洲多明尼加, 後來再在一九六九年十月到美國。<br>
<br>
問﹕你在澳門出生的﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕不是, 我是在大陸出世的。</p>
<p>問﹕在大陸那裡﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕在大陸恩平出世的。<br>
<br>
問﹕在那一年﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕四六年。</p>
<p>
問﹕在大陸那裡出生﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕在大陸恩平縣。</p>
<p>問﹕九歲 時候就到了澳門, 為什麼﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕因為我們全家都搬到了澳門。</p>
<p>Q﹕為什麼你從中國去澳門﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕因為我爸爸,他們準備去委內瑞拉,那麼我們全家出了澳門,我在澳門讀書。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼,你對中國有什麼印象呢﹖九歲倒應該記得很多事情吧。</p>
<p>岑﹕當然啦,記得好多啦。我地恩平啦就的地方就好窮的。我們同鄉的人呢都是個個出外洋的,出外洋呢,就是出去第二個國家,然後工作,比較有前途的,因為這樣,所以我們鄉下裡的人都很喜歡出國,去美國啦,去中南美洲,恩平人去多明尼加,最多。</p>
<p>問﹕是怎樣去的呢﹖是偷渡﹖還是申請去的呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕不是偷渡的,我們是申請去旅遊,入到去之後六個月後,可以拿到居留。</p>
<p>問﹕挺容易的嗎﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕是,以前是非常之容易的。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你以前家裡人是做什麼的呢﹖在大陸的時候﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕我祖父以前在大陸做工廠的,做磚瓦,就是製造建築材料的工廠,但是後來,共產黨來了之後,所有財產被沒收了,這就變了我們家族沒有法子謀生活,所以就要出國了。<br>
<br>
問﹕為什麼會到了南美洲呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕因為我們以前鄉親全部,多半也是到了南美洲, 多明尼加,SANTA DOMINGO 。</p>
<p>問﹕你已經有幾代在那裡啊﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕沒有幾代,由我這代才開始,但是我爺爺去VENEZUELA(委內瑞拉),去委內瑞拉差不多四十年啦。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼,你九歲那年,你全家去了澳門?<br>
<br>
岑﹕一部分,我和我媽媽和兩個弟弟,後來,就我祖母和另外兩個弟弟都出來,全家都在澳門住。<br>
<br>
問﹕你爸爸呢﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕我爸爸在香港是做麵包的。也就是在BAKERY(麵包店)那些,弄一些BREAD(麵包),發給人家的,是工廠,也就是賣給那些COFFEE SHOP(咖啡店)。</p>
<p>問﹕也就是說你爸爸早就去了香港啦﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕是。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼,你在澳門住了多久了﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕在澳門住了十一年了。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你讀書,小學中學也是在那裡﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕我也是在聖約瑟讀中學。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼那時候在澳門讀中文﹖還是讀英文﹖讀英文--<br>
<br>
岑﹕有中文有英文。<br>
<br>
問﹕-- 你有沒有學PORTUGESE(葡萄牙文)﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕我認識一點啊,因為我懂西班牙語,PORTUGESE跟西班牙語好相近。</p>
<p>問﹕你是幾歲時候就去了--<br>
<br>
岑﹕二十歲啊。</p>
<p>問﹕二十歲才去DOMINICAN REPUBLIC(多明尼加共和國)是不是﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕是。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼,你到了那裡,感覺是如何﹖在那裡?<br>
<br>
岑﹕我在那裡跟了一個UNCLE(叔叔)做WATCH REPAIR,也就是修理手錶,JEWELRY的東西,也就是首飾,跟他學。<br>
<br>
問﹕你在澳門到二十歲,已經讀大學了嗎﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕不是啊。我在讀中學沒多久就去了,我們澳門那個地方是沒有大學讀的,也就是到最高也只有有高中。<br>
<br>
問﹕你在十多歲的時候,有沒有想過以後成長,長大,時會有什麼樣的事業呢﹖出國之類﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕我最大的願望是做醫生,但是不太有機會繼續讀大學做醫生,但是現在我很幸運,我自己做不了醫生,就做了一個JEWELER(首飾師傅)。也就是,因為設計首飾,做首飾啊是無須要對生命負責任。做醫生呢。對生命有責任,要負責。所以我覺得我真好沒做醫生,我做回自己的工。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼,你二十歲的時候,在南美洲已經有家人嗎﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕不是,我的家人都在澳門,只是我一個人去了。到了和同鄉的UNCLE(叔伯)那裡去做工。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼,你在那裡,做一些什麼樣的事﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕是做修理手錶啊。做JEWELRY(珠寶)啊。<br>
<br>
問﹕那個時候,你住的地方,多不多華人啊﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕啊,我們那裡,那時候,差不多有幾千人。我們鋪頭做工有十多人,我們的鋪頭有十五人做工,做修理手錶啊,做買賣那些錶啊,還有JEWELRY那些東西。</p>
<p>
問﹕那麼你過了去,覺不覺得容易好快就習慣了那邊的生活﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕我們好開心啊,那時候,師兄弟,常打球,生活好開心,非常之開心啊。也就是生活的方式跟澳門﹑香港﹑美國完全不同的。 <br>
<br>
問﹕是怎樣不同呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕在西班牙地方呢,人們性格好熱情的,還有好FRIENDLY(友善)的,對那些中國人沒有歧視的。覺得那些中國人呢,高人一等的,也就是沒有歧視你們中國人啊,好少這情況。<br>
<br>
問﹕你是過到去才開始學西班牙文的﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕是。那時候我們,在那裡做工,一班人。我們請了一個律師,在那裡做工,不是,也就是我們早上做工,晚上律師下班後就教我們,收我們每人,一個人,一個星期十元,於是我們做了黑板學西班牙文。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你讀多久就已經明白呢﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕讀,通常來講呢,讀了兩年就可以普通可以講,大約三,四年就可以寫一點。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你在那裡,一路是做修理--?<br>
<br>
岑﹕一路也是做工,修理手錶。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你在那時候,有沒有想過繼續讀書,再做醫生呢﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕沒有,那時候我們已經做了這個行業,已經不能改變,工作的PRESSURE(壓力)和責任,一路一路的做下去。那時後,沒想到,沒想到讀書,最重要的是掙得錢,那時候,首先掙錢。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼,做這職業,是能掙錢的﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕做,做了三年呢,在那邊做了三年,就已經自己開出來了,開了舖子,也就是自己做老闆。</p>
<p>問﹕你一共在那裡住了多少年了﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕住了三年多,沒到四年。<br>
<br>
問﹕就來美國了﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕是來美國。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你是怎樣,有人擔保你過來嗎﹖還是你自己﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕因為我過來的時候,已經有師兄弟,已經在美國,大的廠裡面做。之後見到那些工作安定,而且做我們這個職業,那時候,工資還好,都有一百二十元,一百三十元一個星期。</p>
<p>問﹕那是1960年代?</p>
<p>岑﹕以前普通餐廳 ,去餐館普通打工,七十五,一百銀。這樣的話,我們多一些。而且工作比較舒服,就是做技術性的工作,就沒有--,原本我過來這裡的時候,我的外父呢做餐館,<br>
想教我做餐館。但是我見到餐館的時候,哇﹗我去見到做廚師呢,一腳頂一個按鈕,全身擺動,這樣我真的不能啊。我是好喜歡煮餐的。我以前媽媽教我煮餐,我好喜歡煮餐!但是,我見到這樣辛苦是挨不了,我還是做回自己珠寶那個行業。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你過來美國,也是一個遊客這樣過來啊﹖還是申請過來﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕第一次過來是遊客,第二次過來也是遊客,後來我在猶太那個,一個工廠那裡做。差不多時候便申請居留。<br>
<br>
問﹕在猶太也是做修理的﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕修理手錶,YEAH(是的)。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你69年,一來就來紐約嗎﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕不是啊,那時應該是70年,不是69,是70年才是。EXACTLY(正確是)。<br>
<br>
問﹕那麼你一來就來紐約嗎﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕一來就來到紐約啊。<br>
<br>
問﹕你為甚麼選紐約呢﹖美國那麼大﹖<br>
<br>
岑﹕因為我以前來旅行,我見到有中國的SUPERMARKET(超級市場),見到有我們中國的食物什麼也有。是適合我們中國人口味,因為我第一最緊要,最緊要的事就是要有得吃。因為多明尼加那裡呢,<br>
西班牙那地方啦,也是什麼食物都有。但是我注重中國式的食物樣樣都齊全。我就是為了那邊多東西吃,所以我來的。</p>
<p>問﹕ 沒有考慮去舊金山啊,其他地方,有華人--?</p>
<p>岑﹕因為我所有的朋友都在NEW YORK(紐約),所有我考慮來NEW YORK(紐約)。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼你來到有沒有好難接受﹖這裡冬天又這麼冷,好多東西也不同,你那時候冷不冷?</p>
<p>岑﹕因為我們呢,我們習慣了,因為我們以前年輕時,好喜歡打球,運動啦。我個人是很ACTIVITY(活躍)的,就比較,也就是活動性的,也就是適合環境就是很容易的,也就是完全沒覺得冷的。</p>
<p>問﹕你來的那個時候,懂不懂英文呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕我也懂一點。我以前在澳門讀書都懂,一路也是在多明尼加那時候讀西班牙文,我們也是用英文的,兩種語文一起地讀。</p>
<p>問﹕你來的時候有二十多歲啦﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕是。</p>
<p>問﹕還是蠻年輕的﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕是啊。</p>
<p>問﹕你剛過來的時候是做什麼的呢﹖但是--</p>
<p>
岑﹕我剛過來的時候是修理錶啦。跟那個西人做了一年,之後居留就好了。之後因為我自己在那邊做了一年老闆,我就立即自己開間公司。跟一個朋友立即自己,還在哈林區開﹗你們不敢去那裡啦,但是那邊舖子租金便宜啊,那時候,一百而十多元舖租。我說,好,租一間鋪出來,先開了鋪,一路做,一路學,也就是在美國去摸索怎麼在美國做珠寶。實在在那邊開了,初初也不是志在賺錢,是志在先入了行,看市場,怎樣的做法,怎樣自己做。</p>
<p>問﹕那時候,唐人街的屋租,是不是很貴﹖你要到HARLEM(哈林)呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕不是。因為那時候,我有班朋友,住在上面那邊。他見到有一間-- 因為我有個同鄉,在對面開了餐館,叫做華庭餐館。他開了幾十年了,現在沒有做了。他說,“對面有個鋪位,租金廉宜,你不如上來這裡開啦﹗那邊很多西班牙人,西班牙人的生意最好啦”。我說,“試試看就租了來做。我們做了一年左右,我們已經賺了十萬,八萬了。我們又跟另一個PARTNER(合夥人),兩個人在BRONX那邊Concord又開一間, 那麼我變了兩間,變了開了一年半之後,我們又賺了十多﹑二十萬。這時候,我就去了CANAL (堅尼路)開鋪。在CANAL 225號開,開了之後,一路到現在,我的舖子還在。</p>
<p>問﹕NO NO NO WE CAN’T [PAUSE] </p>
<p>岑﹕那時候,就是七一年,開了大約一年左右呢,我們在BRONX(布朗士區) 的concord又開第二間,我的PARTNER (合夥人)就去守那間,我就守157街BROADWAY那間。那麼ALAN在上面守呢,後來在過半年之後呢,我找到鋪位,我搬下到CANAL街來,那時候是七三年。</p>
<p>問﹕聽來,好像是很大膽,你只有二十多歲。</p>
<p>
岑﹕是嗎,我不是,我絕對不-- 也就是說一定要勇敢,做人一定要勇敢。那時候我隔壁哈林啊,打劫啊,那間銀行打劫,三支機關槍帶到門口,我趕快逃啊。打劫我隔壁的銀行,HARLEM啊。HARLEM BANK,三支機關槍,教那些警車也走回頭路﹗</p>
<p>問﹕那是不是你懂西班牙語,可以跟那些顧客--</p>
<p>岑﹕也就是可以溝通,YEAH,可以溝通,所以,就--。但是我們那時候做就比較容易,就沒有那麼多COMPETITION(競爭)。還有是很少人做,生意也很好。所有好多的同鄉,親戚朋友,都說千萬不要做,說在美國,是沒有中國人做珠寶的。</p>
<p>問﹕你來美國之前,對美國有什麼印象呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕對美國,因為我們很多時候會看歷史,報紙,還有時事新聞,也知道美國是唯一一個國家,現代社會,經濟發展得最強的。而且,美元穩定啊,也就是來到這裡,工作生意也比較穩定。特別我們這些勤力的人,一定有成就的-- --就是要有點信心。</p>
<p>問﹕你來之前,是不是未有家庭﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕還沒有。</p>
<p>問﹕你剛來的時候,你看,你覺得那時候七十年代,唐人街是什麼樣子的呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕唐人街那時候,就是孔子大廈也還沒有起(興建)。那時候有很多的爛破屋的﹗那裡有牌子寫著「提防小手」,也就是提防那些偷盜。<br>
那時候只有幾間破屋,在孔子大廈那邊。我們就住在EAST BROADWAY(東百老匯)那邊,在郵政局隔壁。</p>
<p>問﹕但是那時候,那個範圍一定沒有現在那麼大﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕範圍沒有現在那麼大,而且那個時候的人--差不多我們出街,每個人也認識的。也就是說,你在唐人街,人人都認識的。每一個人都認識每一個人啊。也就是說當時比較少一點人。</p>
<p>問﹕親密一點啦﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕親密一點,也就是每一個人都認識。你在那裡做生意啊,你在那裡出入,每個都認識。現在不可以啦,認識不了那麼多啦。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼你來到覺得困不困難呢﹖你每一樣事也要--</p>
<p>岑﹕我很順利的,我是非常的順利。</p>
<p>問﹕你為什麼這樣的順利﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕因為我自己有信心,我自己勤力和爭取,對啊。</p>
<p>問﹕就是這些東西令你做生意很順利﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕對。沒錯。</p>
<p>問﹕你在那一年在唐人街開舖子的﹖</p>
<p>
岑﹕我在七--讓我看看-- 七二年搬入,七二年那時候搬下去唐人街的。但是七一年已經在HARLEM開了啦,到七二年中間那時候,我不太記得,忘了日子啦。這麼就搬了下來唐人街這裡,是225號CANAL街,也就是225號,在中央街和CANAL街交角那裡,還有的是,我是第一個中國人在那裡租舖子做珠寶。</p>
<p>問﹕在那個時候,七零年代唐人街是不是還有很多黑社會呢﹖你做這個行業,覺不覺得有很大的危險性﹖也就是--</p>
<p>岑﹕YEAH,我覺得絕對就是不會的。因為--為什麼呢﹖我們做這行業,我們當然要小心門戶,門戶要小心,也就是自己要提防啦。但是也不是那麼的危險。我也有膽在HARLEM開,我在CANAL街更加不會覺得危險啦。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼你有沒有試過打劫呢﹖給人家--?</p>
<p>岑﹕有啊。試過很多次啦。給人拿起就走啊,這樣啦,一支槍指著,只可等他拿走。</p>
<p>問﹕但是你的親人有沒有給人家--?</p>
<p>岑﹕有,有啊。</p>
<p>問﹕但是,你還是不怕﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕我不怕的。我-- --人家來打劫我,我說,你最多拿東西走,你不要DON’T MAKE NERVOUS,當然不要NERVOUS,先不要緊張。你要什麼,你拿去,就走。</p>
<p>問﹕你自己本人,有沒有拿住槍﹖</p>
<p>
岑﹕我不能夠拿槍啦。如果真的要拿槍,我已經打死了幾次人。但是我不喜歡,拿槍對待。現在打劫,只是拿一些東西,對嗎﹖拿槍,如果拿槍,抓槍去來,不是他射你,就是你射他,不能的。做我們這個行業有槍是很危險的。</p>
<p>問﹕那時候,七十年代初,雖然唐人街很多黑社會,但是有沒有要給錢某一黨派去?</p>
<p>岑﹕沒有,我們沒有。</p>
<p>問﹕-- 保護你﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕是有這些事。我們這邊沒有。因為七十年代初那時候,雖然就-- --很混亂,也就是每天都有人下來唐人街這裡想打劫那些舖子。當時呢,我就組織<br>
了一個會,一個叫CANAL STREET JEWELRY MERCHANT ASSOCIATION(堅尼路珠寶商人協會)。我做會長,那時候,就請了六個ARMED GUARD(警衛)守這條街。我是做HANDLE(處理)的,就請這些ARMED GUARD(持械警衛),六個ARMED GUARD,有槍的,看守,每一個BLOCK(街口)看守,所以他們去那裡打劫,不敢到我們那邊。</p>
<p>問﹕那些是你私人--</p>
<p>岑﹕不是,是我們會的。</p>
<p>問﹕--會的﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕我們那個會,每人三百元,也就是我做組織啦,那時候我做會長的。我在HANDLE(處理),收錢啊,給那些GUARD(警衛)。做計算,人家不給我,我自己給人家那一份。</p>
<p>問﹕由一個中國人來講,你覺得在美國做在美國的中國人,和在南美洲有沒有什麼不同的呢﹖以一個美國人對中國人來看,和南美洲人對中國人來看﹖</p>
<p>
岑﹕我相信呢,你自己相處那些人,如果,假如你自己真正在某方面或是有知識啊,這樣人家也不會歧視你的。除非你做一些,不好的事,或是行為啊,舉動啊,也就是做得不好,即使是同類,人家,不是中國人也會歧視你。我不感覺,我常常也不會感覺給人家歧視啊。好像我最初呢,開珠寶店的時候,有一班猶太人,在CANAL街做的。見到我們中國人來開,他說,“中國人啊,你應該在對面開賣食物啊,或是開餐館,做那些。為甚麼你會來做我們這行業呢﹖”他,第一會歧視,取笑的型式,但是我會很斯文的跟他講,我說猶太以前,在埃及,也就是耶穌誕生之前,在埃及,給埃及王拉去做奴隸,起金字塔,當摩西帶猶太人回去中東的時候,跟中東的有非常的衝突,沒路可走,就跟絲綢之路,在唐朝時代入了我們中國,有二萬多猶太人,入了我們中國。在第一次世紀之難,我們中國人保護了你們猶太人,第二次呢,那個希特勒呢,第二次世界大戰,就殺那些猶太人,殺到手弱的時候,你有地方走嗎﹖只有我們中國人接受你,去了上海。兩次世紀之難,我們中國人都救了你啊。你不能夠歧視我們啊,我們是你的朋友。</p>
<p>問﹕然後你說--</p>
<p>岑﹕HEY,中國人啊,你不要再講這個故事。我說如果再想聽多些歷史,我再講。他說,也就是說不應該歧視人。</p>
<p>問﹕也就是說,你要用歷史道理跟他講,這樣才可--</p>
<p>岑﹕也不是,如果你自己有(料)才幹,沒有人可以歧視你,不敢歧視你啊﹗人家會RESPECT你,尊敬你,最緊要你自己是嗎。</p>
<p>
問﹕你來到美國開鋪,後來哈林兩間有繼續﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕哈林區那間,我搬了去CANAL街,沒有做啦。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼你現在總共有幾多間﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕我現在有三間。也就是我太太看那間舊的,我自己在軍人會樓下一間,我太太隔壁那間也是我的。</p>
<p>問﹕你本身是住在那裡呢﹖現在--</p>
<p>岑﹕我現在住在QUEENS,ASTORIA(皇后區的亞士多利亞)。</p>
<p>問﹕也就是沒有住在唐人街很久啦﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕沒有住啦。我七九年已經搬了過去了。我舊時在EAST BROADWAY(東百老匯) 住啊。YEAH</p>
<p>問﹕那麼你在唐人街住的時候,你覺不覺得好像好多中國人在唐人街,全個世界就是這個唐人街,不多出去紐約其他地方﹖長時間來看,好像好小的一個地方。那麼,你的生活,會不會是這樣的﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕我是不會的。因為我們呢,就每一年,都喜歡去旅行啦,去第二個地方,而且我一班朋友啦,在那裡住也有朋友的,有時候去探探朋友啦。也就是說我們不是封閉式的,我們生活幾代會跟潮流轉的。也就是不會像那些老伯那樣,不出唐人街。他們在唐人街幾十年,整天留在唐人街,就連搭火車去出門也沒有,我們絕對不會是這種啦。 </p>
<p>
問﹕你覺得七十年代那個時候,唐人街那些街坊團不團結呢﹖那個時候,多數是台山跟廣東人,也就是沒現在那麼複雜﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕不過一般來講,以前大約百分之八十也是台山人,那時候我們一班客人,朋友也是台山人多。YEAH。(是的)</p>
<p>問﹕你覺得那時候的唐人街,比較現在,會不會團結一點呢﹖也就是沒有現在那麼複雜呢﹖現在比較多種人。</p>
<p>岑﹕我覺得得看由那一方面來講。如果你講複雜,跟每個意見各方面來講就覺得。一個人和一個人跟社會的關係,這樣的就絕對不會。也就是說你複雜的情況是你自己個人的情況,不是整個社會的,我覺得情況不是這樣。</p>
<p>問﹕你不認為現在唐人街是好不團結,廣東人﹑台山人﹑又福建人好像--</p>
<p>岑﹕絕對不會的。我對福建人﹑台山人﹑還有對我自己鄉里,也是一樣。在我心目中,就算我聽到朋友講話,跟誰過份什麼的,台山福建這樣,我都會用理由去解釋,他這樣不應該。我們中國人怎麼可以歧視我們自己中國人呢﹖我的客戶有西班牙人﹑非洲人﹑什麼人種類也有,我都他們呢,始終我在我的觀感來講是沒有等級的。</p>
<p>問﹕可能是你本人--</p>
<p>岑﹕對。</p>
<p>
問﹕--是不是這樣子。但是很多中國人在唐人街來講,我們是不團結的。所以就在紐約市來講就沒有一種權力 ,因為好多唐人也是不團結,每一個會也有自己的看法,那麼你--</p>
<p>岑﹕我覺得呢,跟以前比較呢,我很少參與社區活動那些會的。但是最近來講呢,一班朋友呢,也就是有時要做些什麼,就要我出來,參與一下,我們多一點接觸。我認為中國人呢,團體啊,姓氏啊,那些會啊,是非常我們中國的,是最有價值的CULTURE(文化)。一班同鄉啊,走在一起,大家有困難,互相幫助啊,借錢啊,或是有什麼意見啊,家庭問題啊,自己有一班人解決。對外而言,是他沒有跟一個GROUP(團體)去交-- 也就是去相處啦。當然啦,一個,那個人去跟第二個個人去相處不很久,就是不明白的。當然對每一種事的看法就不同,無論是做事,一個國家都一樣,對看法不同,拿出來,大家互相去argue(爭吵),沒緊要,去爭吵,沒緊要,找出一個真理,大家一起要做,應該是這樣的。社會是跟國家一樣的。我有很多COMMITTEE(委員會)一起,那麼我是從來沒有吵過架的,也沒有人罵過我的。我這麼多COMMITTEE(委員會)做,跟他們一起做,只可能將不同的意見,大家相量去解決。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼你來了美國就沒有考慮到過回澳門或是回去玩﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕有,我有回去玩,回去看看,我一回去,一班同學啊,一班朋友啊,很有--</p>
<p>問﹕但是沒有想過回去住﹖回去--</p>
<p>
岑﹕絕對不會啦。因為我的兒女在這裡長大,在這裡讀書,家庭最緊要嗎。我事業也在這裡,就是不會--</p>
<p>問﹕這樣子,好像你的事業,店鋪,也是很順利的,是不是﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕我覺得,勉強可以支持我家庭的生活,那麼我就已經覺得很滿足,因為我們一個人呢,最重要是覺得自己滿足,而且自己有信心。這樣子去生存,然後才可以--</p>
<p>問﹕現在回到9/11那個時候啦。</p>
<p>岑﹕是。</p>
<p>問﹕9/11那一年,你在唐人街﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕是,我在唐人街,對,我還在上班--</p>
<p>問﹕你記不記得--</p>
<p>岑﹕我的汽車在DELANCEY(地蘭西),那時候,第一架飛機呢就撞了在那裡,我就以為是火災,我們還在DELANCEY(地蘭西)那裡,回到DELANCY(地蘭西)和BOWERY(包厘)那裡,CORNER(街角)那裡,見到在窗門那裡起煙。</p>
<p>問﹕後來那段時間,對你的生意有什麼樣的影響﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕啊,9/11發生之後,我們關門,關了三天,因為那些煙呢,那陣煙味,整個唐人街COVER(被掩蓋)了,空氣很不舒服,同時,那時候就覺得那些空氣,還是很不舒服。也就是說那些空氣呢,呼吸空氣的時候,很污濁的。所以我們沒回去,沒有開門三天。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼,在這三天時間,有沒有人打劫﹖有沒有人打擾什麼的﹖</p>
<p>
岑﹕絕對沒有。那次就是因為美國的通訊和資訊先進,每個人都知道發生了什麼事啊--大家應該用什麼的心態去保護這個國家,怎樣去--什麼意見去提出來啊,怎樣去保護我們的國家啊,也就是那個同時的情況,怎樣發生,所以每個人心中就是問這些事。我相信不會,那些出來打劫那些事就絕對沒有。所以我覺得NEW YORK(紐約)已經進步了,或是水準高了。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼,你的生意有沒有影響了呢﹖也就是說,除了那三天關門之後﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕當然是影響非常之大啦,因為以前我們在II WORLD TRADE CENTER(世貿中心)那裡做工的人,好像MERRILL LYNCH(美林證券),跟LEHMAN BROTHERS(李曼兄弟),很多在那裡的也是我的客戶。他們在LUNCH TIME 的時候,LUNCH也不吃,出來看一下表啊,WEDDING BAND那些,他們這些人,已經全走了去第二個地方工作,這些客戶不再回來了。</p>
<p>問﹕你意思是你的客戶,不只是唐人街的唐人,很多WALL STREET (華爾街)啊--</p>
<p>岑﹕對啊。</p>
<p>問﹕-- 其他鬼佬也來的﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕對。</p>
<p>問﹕大約你BUSINESS(生意)損失有幾多呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕一段一段時間啦,初時只剩下三分之一,後來慢慢地一路去好,但是現在相差還有二十五到三十個PERCENT(百分點)。</p>
<p>問﹕你有沒有去申請9/11救助金﹖</p>
<p>
岑﹕我就沒有去直接地申請,但是有一次,他寄來一張FORM,就填表,可以幫助我們的租金這樣。我們啦,收了四千元,一次四千元,一次三千元,好像是七千元。</p>
<p>問﹕你的屋租有沒有起價,這幾年﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕我的屋租就一路一路有起的。</p>
<p>問﹕也就是說不是因為9/11的影響﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕因為我們簽租約的時候一路是這樣起,要按照租約那樣交租啦。我屋主就減了一個月屋租。</p>
<p>問﹕但是我覺得唐人街CANAL STREET(堅尼路)走起上來,好像沒有以前那麼多金鋪,是不是呢﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕不是的。始終也是這麼多,沒有少過,應該是沒有少了。</p>
<p>問﹕跟以前差不多?</p>
<p>岑﹕YEAH,差不多</p>
<p>問﹕跟9/11以前﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕對啊。</p>
<p>問﹕你有沒有覺得,唐人客戶少了呢﹖因為這幾年,經濟差了很多,可能人們買金買表,沒以前花錢那麼多,沒以前花的--</p>
<p>
岑﹕如果跟以前,我自己的觀感,對MARKET(市場)來講呢。因為現在美國人,呢,就受了一個市場的經驗,知識水平高了,對於經濟學研究深了,所以好得意,股票賺錢,一窩蜂個個買股票。但是INTERNET(科網)爆了之後呢,個個覺得一不穩定,錢就全不見了。他們現在就買屋,他們買屋,第一間就買來住,第二間買來投資,有兒子結婚呢,就再買一間。如果一個家庭有一個MORTGAGE(貸款)到三個MORTGAGE,把錢給了MORTGAGE,他們的CASH FLOW(現金流量),已經給MORTGAGE LOCK(鎖)死了。所以我們的經濟就這樣啦。舉例,你有一間房子賣給我,或是我有一間賣給你,我們SIGN UP (簽署)了PAPER(文件)之後,這些錢TURN AROUND,回去銀行,所以銀行會水浸,就有很多錢啦,但是MARKET(市場)就沒有CASHFLOW,所以變了很多RETAIL BUSINESSES(零售業)都會DOWN(下降),我自己以前一班,在MERRILL(美林證券)做財務的年青人呢,在我們那裡買表,我跟他們談話。我對財務的事,認識也非常之深。因為我喜歡年青人CONVERSATION(對話),如何看MARKET(市場)啊,經濟如何的轉啊,我們經常的談,所以我看得很清楚。</p>
<p>問﹕你在唐人街三十多年來,那個時代最旺你﹖你的生意最好--</p>
<p>岑﹕最旺是1983年到1990年那七年,那七年我們做珠寶跟RETAIL BUSINESS (零售業)最旺的。所有的RETAIL BUSINESS是最旺的。</p>
<br>
<p>
問﹕你對9/11對唐人街有什麼影響,你有什麼看法﹖你覺得這個COMMUNITY(社區),有這件事之後,有沒有團結多一點﹖還是大家跟之前也是一樣﹖</p>
<p>岑﹕9/11之後呢,大家都認為覺得是一個時間我們應該要團結在一起。很多餐館也不見了生意,百分之三十,有一些百分之七十。在這樣的情況下,在困難的時候,大家都希望能夠找到一個方法WORK TOGETHER(互相合作),也就是大家一起做工,想大家如何能夠把唐人街變得更加好,還有在清潔各方面做得更好。希望能夠將唐人街這地方,能夠再BUILD UP(復興),好一點。</p>
<p>問﹕在你的名片上,我看到你參加了很多會,有一些--</p>
<p>岑﹕對啊。</p>
<p>問﹕你是CHAIRPERSON,PRESIDENT(主席﹑會長)啊,有一些就是MEMBER(會員)。唐人街這麼小的地方,看上來有很多的會。你認為這麼多會,大家有沒有來往?有沒有溝通?還是只是珠寶,就只有珠寶那行業,餐館就只是餐館那個行業,大家沒有--</p>
<p>岑﹕如果這樣-- 希望把我的經驗,就是在唐人街的經驗,拿出來跟大家分享一下。如果參加這些會呢,是一個GROUP(團體)的人,做一個GROUP(團體)不同的事。大家心態做一件事。我們中國人呢,因為我們的生活方式是家族式的,封閉式的。所以為什麼我們中國幾千年也這麼落後,就是因為我們用封閉式的生活去處理人生。最簡單有一次,我去領事館,領事請我們吃飯,大家坐下來大約三十個人,但是有十二種言語。其中有一個朋友提起,問為甚麼我們中國有這麼多方言的呢?為甚麼我們只是在廣東也有方言十幾種呢?我說這是很簡單的。我們以前中國是農業社會是封閉式的。我們村不跟你們村打交道,因為你們村不見了豬就說是我們村偷了得,吃了。或是你們不見了牛,又說是隔壁偷了,所以經常爭吵,不來往的。所以我們村講的話,<br>
希望你們村不明白。我們又不明白你們。就是這種封閉式的生活使到中國幾千年也這麼落後。應該開放多一些跟別人接觸,這樣你可以學得很多東西。就算是不喜歡,也會學得很多。</p>
<p>問﹕你意思是,這些在風俗從大陸,這麼多年的歷史,就帶到來,唐人街,也是一樣?</p>
<p>岑﹕這樣就是不對,大家應該多一些溝通,多一些了解,不同層面的朋友,跟不同GROUP 的朋友做不同的事,你會增加你自己的TALENT,也就是知識。很多事不是能從書本上學回來的。一定要跟人家接觸,然後去溝通。</p>
<p>問﹕你認為普通一個鬼佬外國人,對唐人街有什麼樣的看法呢?如果你一想唐人街,你會先想到什麼呢?</p>
<p>岑﹕第一,他們會想知道我們中國人的風俗是怎樣的。但是來到唐人街之後就會見到所有物品不同啦,也就是我們中國人吃的東西不同啦,用的東西不同啦,GIFT SHOP, CULTURE 也不同啦。但是他們是已經知道,中國人有很多東西是值得他們去學。最簡單,二十多,三十年前,我有一個做會計,叫李先生,李深知先生,做會計的,在CANAL街那裡計數啦,報稅這樣,那時王安電腦,那個王安,他以前是COMPUTER ENGINEER(電腦工程師),是很TOP(頂級)的,在原理上,已經知道如何製造電腦,但是在機械上,他們沒辦法過關,他們來到李先生這裡,看到有個老人,用算盤打數就想到,啊可以啦﹗我們要將電子線路安排像算盤那樣,走上去一個數,走橫去一個數,這樣就可以啦。我們現在的電路的設計就是這樣來的。所以電腦的FUNCTION(功能),也是由我們中國的算盤那裡來的。有很多人不知道這件事。</p>
<p>
問﹕也就是說--</p>
<p>岑﹕沒有了中國的算盤,根本沒有可能將電腦結構成機械。</p>
<p>問﹕一個外國人對唐人街的印象是什麼,你認為他們會覺得中國人有很多東西是值得去學。是不是這樣?</p>
<p>岑﹕對,是這樣。有一些,他們也知道中國的食物是全世界最豐富,而且是多樣化,所以那個法國主廚比賽那個進王軍,三界也得到冠軍。也就是說,中國的美食和藝術,做食品的藝術,已經是全世界沒有辦法追的。</p>
<p>問﹕但是在紐約雖然有很多華人,我們政治方面,權力還是很小,因為很多中國人也不選舉,那麼你自己,親人,有沒有參加這些--?</p>
<p>岑﹕我呢,一路鼓勵我的朋友,我的兒女呢,我也要勉強他們去投票,一定的。一定要的。這是我們公民的義務。二來,我們唐人街要做一些什麼事,也一定要選票做BACKGROUND(背景),也就是聲音可以大一點。要是我們要做什麼的,可以得到市政府,了解我們多一些,也會對社區關心一點。好像中華公所那樣,那兩年,非常之OPEN(開放),常常接待州長啊,他們來啊,演講啊,經常跟他們溝通啊,我們需要什麼的可以直接地跟他講啊。他們也會給我們一些注意力。我們是一定要這樣的。做不做到,成不成功是另外一件事,但是我們對社區的態度是應該要這樣做的。</p>
<p>問﹕你在美國住了三十多年。你覺得你自己是一個中國人住在美國?還是已經是一個中國美國人?</p>
<p>
岑﹕我絕對是中國美國人啦。我們是已經入籍了嗎。對嗎?但是呢,對我們中國文化啦,不能夠否定我們受中國教育,對中國文化就比較了解一些,變了興趣方面也是屬於中國化。</p>
<p>問﹕依你來看,現在唐人街最大的問題是什麼?</p>
<p>岑﹕現在最大的問題,第一是交通,第二是清潔,第三,我們要經濟,因為沒有了車衣廠之後呢,我們的經濟受到來威脅,變了。女人啊,以前在衣廠做的,現在要轉型,做護理啊,也就是要慢慢的轉型。但是除了轉型之外呢,我們唐人街做生意,不能像以前那樣,只是有亞姆幫襯(女性長輩來購物),我們要轉型,做一些以旅遊,遊客為主,也要做一些貨物適合於美國市場的,同時要吸引有購買力的遊客,在這裡花錢。也就是將唐人街變成了一個文化旅遊中心。這樣對我們以後的經濟生存,和在形式上來講,就應該要BUILD UP(建立),用開揚(開放)形式來做。不能像以前那樣,覺得我們已經有足夠的生意去做,衣廠能賺得錢,老闆可以去大西洋城,幾萬元放在桌子的賭博。這些形式已經不可能存在。我們應該更加要SERIOUS(嚴肅)一些對我們的社區,要轉型和推動。所以我加入那個唐人街旅遊推廣協會呢--</p>
<p>問﹕REVIEW CHINATOWN,對嗎?</p>
<p>岑﹕YEAH,那個。</p>
<p>問﹕唐人街旅遊推廣協會,在9/11以前就已經成立了的,希望將唐人街所以的消息,全發放出去,之後讓傳媒替我們PROMOTE(推廣),讓他們認識我們唐人街,認識我們中國的文化。很得意的,有一次我們招待那些傳媒,<br>
NEW YORK(紐約) 的記者跟國務院有一個女人,是做推廣民族文化的那個首長,我忘記了名字,她來到,跟我們GRAND TOUR,帶他們一班人旅遊唐人街,在唐人街我們帶他們去吃點心,去喜萬年 (DIM SUM RESTAURANT),吃點心。她問,現在八點半,為什麼這麼多人在這裡吃早餐呢?是不是昨天沒吃晚飯?我說不是這樣的,我說中國人,一早起來,最重要的就是“飲茶”。“飲茶”是中國幾千年來的社會習慣。“飲茶”來講呢,你看那邊一個GROUP(一班人),那一班老人家一張報紙開出來,他們呢,今天有什麼的新聞會公開一起評論。有什麼政治性的,POLITICS 什麼問題,他們會在這裡評論。你見到另外的桌子,有兒童的,是FAMILY(家庭) 的,今天可能是誰的生日,大家在談關於FAMILY 的事。再過一桌呢,你見到一班也是做生意的,穿了衣服做生意的。有可能,一個人拖欠了誰得錢,叫他明天出來“飲茶”呢,那麼你就要記得要帶五百元要還給他。從生意是在這裡,FAMILY MEETING(家庭聚會), BUSINESS MEETING(商務聚會), 跟那些社區主席們談論社區事務也在這裡。所以我們中國人呢,不用給錢看那些PSYCHOLOGIST(心理學家),那些心理醫生。我們在這裡已經全醫好了。有什麼問題呢,出來找朋友呢就已經醫好你了。那個PSYCHOLOGY(心理學家)醫生又如何知道PERSONAL LIFE(私人生活)啊?但是你的朋友知道便可以解決你的問題啦。所以我覺得我們這些文化呢,西方是沒有的。你們這些人原來這麼利害﹗我們做生意的有什麼問題,約他出來,有什麼不合意的,在這裡便講到同意。為何要MEETING(聚會)呢?要MEETIING, 又要MEETING 什麼的。我們在這裡什麼也同意了。我們一路的吃,一路興奮地講東西,容易SMOOTH DOWN(氣氛融洽),就是沒有ARGUMENT(吵架),如果我在跟你講生意,有什麼不對,我們不會啪桌子鬧。你們老番呢,MEETING不對呢,就會啪桌子鬧,我們是不可以這樣的,因為我們旁邊有一桌,看到便不好啦。我們最多是小聲的鬧。所以,她說,啊你從來沒講過我聽這回事﹗我說,所以我現在講給你聽,如果你想寫一本書,一本小說-- 也就是說她學了我們中國傳統的文化,也就是價值觀。<br>
也就是說,很多人不習慣這種生活,但是你慢慢的,如果你是有感性的,能夠感受到這些呢,你是可以寫成小說的內容。</p>
<p>問﹕剛才我問你,你覺得唐人街最大的問題是什麼。我做這個PROJECT(計劃),也跟了很多街坊談,講來講去,也是講交通啦,清潔啦,房租啦,就是每個人也知道--住屋問題。</p>
<p>問﹕對。</p>
<p>岑﹕這幾樣東西是非常的重要啦。</p>
<p>問﹕但是每個也知道,問題是這些東西,但是為甚麼,十多﹑二十年來,還是沒有辦法解決呢?唐人街依然是這麼骯髒,也是這麼窄,也是這麼逼?</p>
<p>岑﹕但是我覺得,首先講住屋,我記得那時候,1970年代,起那個孔子大廈那時候,有很多單位,也要很久才能租出去,很多人不申請。慢慢地,逐漸地移民越來越多,在EAST SIDE (東城)那邊就有很多猶太人就搬了出去,同時在小意大利區那邊,那些意大利人又搬了出去逐漸地,也有些填補。但是現在就真的是爆滿了。所以現在在唐人街住屋是一個很大的問題。現在如果有地方,也會很貴,幾百元一呎地,也買回來興建房子。可以賣得到六,七百元一呎。人口密度高了,城市價值也高了,但是衛生方面-- 所以有這個華人清潔協會,自從BILL LAM(林建中) 和DANNY LEE(李奇峰)等,組織起來之後,我一路也在背後參與和盡心盡力地去幫他們,去拉MEMBER(會員) 和其他人捐錢啊,我就是很熱心地去做這些工作的。他們每個也知道的。YEAH。如果近十年,跟以前比較,那麼會相差很遠。現在的唐人街已經是清潔了很多,你不覺得嗎?但是不是理想到像--</p>
<p>問﹕MIDTOWN那樣。</p>
<p>
岑﹕對,像MIDTOWN(中城)和PARK AVENUE (柏大道)那樣。因為他們上面根本沒有我們這裡這麼多人,遊客和不同地方來的遊客來我們這裡。同時,TRAFFIC交通繁忙,沒有像我們那樣密度那麼大,好像是星期六,星期日那樣子,一,二萬人擁入來啊變了-- 人多了呢,就一定是骯髒了一點的。所以我們現在就儘量教導人們,叫他們不要隨地扔垃圾。最簡單,我有一次,在街上,見到一個女人就掉了紙袋在街上。她旁邊的朋友是認識我的,見到我,說人家清潔華埠,你還不快將這垃圾執拾起來,這個女人便知道要把垃圾袋挑回來才可。也就是說,我們要教導人們,怎樣去保持街道清潔是很緊要的。所以我們將來呢,我們會錄了一支歌唱,關於是如何清潔啊,是每一個人的責任,看有沒有辦法,叫成龍唱出來。在街上廣播,叫人們注意不要隨便在街上掉垃圾。這樣的話-- 我們也要打掃,請一些人,就每一天,請三,四人,換那些垃圾袋去打掃。唐人街比以前已經好得多了。以前,那些垃圾公司呢,是不理會的。我後來,發現了原來,唐人街之所以臭,是因為垃圾車,收了濕的垃圾,在垃圾壓榨的時候,水汁便會流出來地上,這樣便會臭。我便跟那些垃圾局局長啊,垃圾公司的老闆啊,跟他們講,如果你們收垃圾的時候,知道那裡有濕的垃圾,收在最後,這樣的話,垃圾汁變了不會滴下了全街,也是臭味也減少了五十個PERCENT(百分點)以上。我們注意如何去清潔,注意不清潔從那裡來。但是我們沒有辦法--因為這裡有很多人來往,而且MARKET(市場),那些FISH MARKET (魚市場)又在中心地帶,變了會有這些情況。我們儘量可以做到最好啦。但是沒有可能做到完全沒有。完全沒有也就是沒有人來,沒有人來就是更加慘的。</p>
<p>問﹕看上來,你不只在唐人街做生意,用很多時間做COMMUNITY SERVICE(社區服務)--</p>
<p>岑﹕YEAH。</p>
<p>
問﹕--那麼你的兒女啊,下一代,有沒有像你一樣的想法?</p>
<p>岑﹕他們讀書,現在我兒子,在TUFTS讀書,他已經在NORTHWESTERN(西北大學)讀了書出來,做工,做了兩年,後來攻讀碩士,又想讀博士,在TUFTS 那裡。因為他說是全部免費的,我便跟他說要趕快讀。他讀PHILOSOPHY,讀哲學--</p>
<p>問﹕那麼你--</p>
<p>岑﹕我不管了,第二代如果有這樣的興趣,那當然是他們自己的選擇啦。</p>
<p>問﹕--沒有給壓力他們,要繼續做你這個行業?</p>
<p>岑﹕沒有啊,絕對沒有。</p>
<p>問﹕那你的生意將來--?</p>
<p>岑﹕我的弟弟跟妹妹,每人一間。所以如果我不給他們,可以給我的弟妹做。絕對沒有這樣的。以前我爸爸是做麵包的,SUMMER TIME (暑期)的時候,他叫我到那裡,幫手做麵包,我們三百元買粉買糖,晚上我們可以收三千元,四千元的,是很好利錢賺的。做麵包嗎?我說,但是我沒有興趣。我還是喜歡那些手造的。</p>
<p>問﹕也就是說,你對下一代,也沒有給壓力--</p>
<p>岑﹕沒有</p>
<p>問﹕--做些什麼?</p>
<p>
岑﹕很得意的,我大女兒,畢了業,在Swarthmore畢業,喜歡藝術,她現在,在METROPOLITAN MUSEUM (大都會博物館)那裡的 EDUCATION DEPARTMENT(教育部) 做關於藝術的事。最小的那個,在HAVERFORD(哈佛福) 讀,在PENNSYLVANIA(賓州)LANCASTER(蘭卡斯打)那裡讀。她現在去了西班牙,那些STUDENT EXCHANGE,學生交換的東西,六月才回來。我問她,說他哥哥不來幫我,你姐姐就走到METROPOLITAN MUSEUM(大都會博物館)那裡做,你是我最後一個希望,你會出來幫FAMILY BUSINESS(家族生意)嗎?你猜她如何跟我講?她說,DADDY,你在講你自己的夢,YOU’RE NOT TALKING ABOUT MY DREAM。她說你在講你自己的夢,你不是講我的夢。所以我們大家的夢也不同,所以很難的。</p>
<p>問﹕9/11已經過了兩年多,你有沒有覺得已經回到9/11之前那樣LIVELY(蓬勃),和生意也差不多回復正常沒有?</p>
<p>岑﹕如果現在來講,唐人街的生意,依然是很靜的。不能說是活躍到像以前那個樣子。除了9/11影響之外,還有經濟,美國的經濟,CASHFLOW(現金流量), 給地產LOCK(鎖)了那些CASH(現金)。對全美國商業的影響也是很大的,你記得以前香港的地產,地產商炒地,將地產炒高,想將窮人全部推回鄉下,回中國,CHINA。香港就算全是經濟學家,但是他們這樣是錯誤的。如果在香港只有幾個有錢人,沒有人在市場消費,沒有人煮飯給你吃,那裡來餐館開?沒有煮咖啡,你根本也不會有咖啡喝。你生活根本是不正常的。一定要-- 一個社會環境生存呢-- 我也寫了一封信給LMDC 的首長,JOHN Whitehead。我說,NEW YORK 要生存,那些SMALL BUSINESS 一定要能夠生存,然後大的生意才可以生存。好像我們一個地球的環境,如果沒有草根層,吸了這些水啊,就會好像是沙漠那樣,大樹也不能生長的。一定要有很多草然後才有樹可以生。你再去看全世界的環境,如果沒有草的環境,那些樹也一定不能生長的。一定要草根層吸了那些水,你的大樹,才可以長得大。我說,不只是II WORLD TRADE CENTER等大公司的問題,<br>
你也要注意一下,TAKE CARE(照顧)那些小的生意。如果小的生意環境不好的時候,只有大樹,在沙漠只有一個大樹的時候,是一定沒有葉的。一定會枯死的,我說。經濟是這樣的。我知道原來NEW YORK的稅收,七十個PERCENT(百分點)來自SMALL BUSINESS(小生意)的,全部的稅收,大的生意只佔百分之三十。你可以叫他們做小商業調查。</p>
<p>問﹕好,我們今天也講了很多的事。你還有什麼想給我們知道?我沒有問的事?還有什麼YOU WANT TO SHARE WITH US(你想和我們分享)?</p>
<p>岑﹕我就沒有什麼 IDEA (點子)啊,但是最緊要呢,就是我們唐人街,能夠將我們中國的文化,PROMOTE (推廣)出去,讓美國每個地方,也有興趣來這個地方,吸收一下我們中國的文化,對於食物啦﹑GIFT啦﹑還有我們唐人街啦,JEWELRY MARKET,我們做珠寶這樣,在全世界沒有一個珠寶市場是可以跟我們比的。好像是四十七街那樣,他們只是賣美國的款式,但是我們這裡有中國款式的珠寶﹑也有歐洲的﹑和美國本地的,全世界的首飾,在我們唐人街市場也可以找得到。全世界沒有一個珠寶市場是比我們更強的,希望人們多一些來這裡買珠寶啦,讓我們有生意啦。</p>
<p>問﹕你有信心,將來的生意會再PICK-UP?會轉好。</p>
<p>岑﹕會的,如果那些利率一升,地產就會降溫,地產降溫的時候,CASHFLOW 就不會被LOCK死了,RETAIL (零售)是會好的。好像香港那時候炒地產,沒有生意啦,全部死了,每個人也拿錢去供MORTGAGE,銀行呢,就儲了很多錢,在香港儲錢,儲一百萬,你還要付款給銀行款項儲存費STORAGE。他不給利息你,還跟你要STORAGE 錢。銀行有太多的錢,<br>
他們炒地產嗎。好像是飛機那樣,如果你的重量側在一邊是很危險的,對經濟會有危險的。</p>
<p>問﹕OK,好,我們很多謝你今天給我們時間</p>
<p>岑﹕好。</p>
<p>問﹕--跟我們談天,希望你LOTS OF GOOD LUCK(幸福)。</p>
<p>岑﹕YEAH, 謝謝。</p>
Dublin Core
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Title
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S.W. Sang
911DA Item
Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item.
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approved
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unknown
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unknown
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unknown
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Guo Gan Yan
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Florence Ng
Chinatown Interview: Date
0000-00-00
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
Waiter
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: Mr. Yan, please tell us when is your birthday and your life in
China?</p>
<p>
Yan: I was born on March 18<sup>th</sup>, 1950 in Guangzhou, China.</p>
<p>
Q: How was your life in Guangzhou?</p>
<p>
Yan: I lived there for a few decades. I lived through the Cultural
Revolution, a very difficult period. However, we were optimistic and
happy. We had many hobbies. We liked sports, entertainment, and
played various musical instruments.
</p>
<p>
Q: How was the environment of your home town? How many brothers and
sisters do you have?</p>
<p>
Yan: My father was a sailor when I wan born. He sailed in passenger
ships mainly between Hong Kong and Guangzhou. Later, he sold small
stationery.
</p>
<p>
Q: How was the living environment?
</p>
<p>
Yan: Guangzhou had many people but few lands. Thus, living spaces
were scarce and expensive. We had a family of six. Our parents and
four brothers and sisters lived in a 20 sq. meter space. To increase
space, we built an attic. The space was sufficient.
</p>
<p>
Q: How was your study?</p>
<p>
Yan: I studied in a nearby school from elementary to high school
because Guangzhou’s schools adopted a zoning system.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: What did you like to do when you were young?</p>
<p>
Yan: I was very active. During my elementary studies, I loved playing
Ping pong balls and the other sports. In my high school years, I
played basketball, swimming, and ice-skating. I also played Chinese
and Western musical instruments.</p>
<p>
Q: China has experienced many political movements, such as the
Cultural Revolution. How did they affect your studies?</p>
<p>
Yan: I ran into Cultural Revolution when I was in the 2<sup>nd</sup>
year of my intermediate school and we had to stop studying. We were
seriously affected. I only studied intermediate school for less than
2 years. All schools throughout the nations stop schooling. After the
Cultural Revolution, school returned to normal, we had to graduate
from high school. We had to leave because the younger students were
moving up. Hence, I actually finished one year of intermediate
school. Later on, I compensated my study at the workplace. Ha! Ha!
</p>
<p>
Q: What did you do during Cultural Revolution?</p>
<p>
Yan: When school stopped, we scheduled ourselves a lot of activities:
sports, swimming, ice-skating, fishing, and playing cultural musical
instruments and western instruments.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you have a hard time?</p>
<p>
Yan: Not hard time at all. I was young and relatively active. We
played happily.
</p>
<p>
Q: How was your family affected by political unrest?</p>
<p>
Yan: Cultural Revolution eliminated businessmen and peddlers. My
father lost his stationery stores. We lived by renting out public
phone, at a few cents per minute.
</p>
<p>
Q: Your father rented out phone lines.
What did your mother do?</p>
<p>
Yan: My mother helped in housework and in selling stationery.
</p>
<p>
Q: What did your siblings do?</p>
<p>
Yan: My brothers and sisters worked in garment and mechanics
industries in Guangzhou city.</p>
<p>
Q: Describe your life in the factory or being “sent down”
to the village.</p>
<p>
Yan: I wasn’t sent down to the village, because my elder
brother was sent to the village in Hainan Island. My parents were too
old and sick and I would have to stay to take care of them. Hence, I
was assigned a job in a factory.
</p>
<p>
Q: When was that?</p>
<p>
Yan: I was assigned to a factory in 1969.</p>
<p>
Q: What did you do in the factory?</p>
<p>
Yan: I repaired machines. Later on, I was responsible for planning
entertainment events and sports, contests and night concerts.</p>
<p>
Q: What factory was that?</p>
<p>
Yan: That was called Guangzhou Cement Factory. Now it is called
Guangzhou Cement Company Limited.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Yan, you had to work during day time and organized
entertainment activities at night time. How did you arrange your
schedule?</p>
<p>
Yan: At first, I used the leisure time
after working hour to swim and ice-skate. Then we formally
established our own propaganda teams as a political mission. We then
took business leave to rehearse, perform and participate in contests.
Even though we had privileges to take leave, we worked in one of the
3-shifts in the factory. Sometimes we rehearsed in the morning and
worked on night shift. We continue to work as much as we could.
</p>
<p>
Q: What kind of views your close friends and relatives hold when they
learnt about you organizing events?
</p>
<p>
Yan: My father was easy going. He let us express our wishes freely.
He did not oppose us playing musical instruments. I became a
para-professional later on. I organized activities. I assumed the
roles of a coach, team member, team leader and back stage
coordinator.
</p>
<p>
Q: How long did you work in the cement factory?</p>
<p>
Yan: I worked for almost 30 years, until I came to the United States.
It should be exactly 29 years.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: In these 29 years, you had to take care of both working and
organizing social activities?</p>
<p>
Yan: In the latter year of my job, I was solely responsible for
entertainment and sport. I did it at any time of the day, day or
night. I was involved in festivals, parties, inter-factory contests,
employee Lunar festivals, and for retirees, family members and kids.
We had prize games and simple contests.</p>
<p>
Q: Of the many activities that you organized, did you have any
memorable moment?</p>
<p>
Yan: From my experience, I was able to organize games according to
age characteristics of the participants. If elderly could not move
freely, they could not play the games that young people played. At
the same time, we had to show respect and not bored them. The ideal
games should be simple contests with appropriate prizes.
</p>
<p>
For ladies who dressed up and wore
high heels, they could not play ‘musical chair’, nor
could they play ‘bursting the balloons’. They should not
play games that they get stepped on or could cause tripping. The
floors could not be slippery. The ideal games would be guessing
riddles and idioms.
</p>
<p>
Q: What kind of games did you organize?</p>
<p>
Yan: If workers played outdoor, but did not have props yet wanted to
play, I took a nylon rope and cut them into a few one-meter pieces.
Then, I arranged them into 3 to 4 person teams. The team who tied the
longest rope would win. The game was called ‘long strings of
love’. It was a simple game.</p>
<p>
Some games were more complicated and were called ‘walking
like a king crab, blocking all the way’. The game was
interesting and the name carried moral meanings. I would specify
before the game that ‘the contestants will be awarded for
blocking the ways at the game tonight. But in real life, we should be
modest. The contestants were divided into two teams and were assigned
to the two ends of the place. In the middle was a destined line. Each
group of 3 to 4 teammates were lined up and tied on the outer ankles
by rope and little bamboos. The whistle blew and every one walked
sideway towards the middle as fast as possible. People would win if
they walk like a crab. At the game that night, they could walk like a
crab, but in daily life, they should be modest. Since this happened,
I reminded them the morals of the games.</p>
<p>
Q: Your work provided relaxation to people’s stressful lives.
Did it spice up the lives of the grass root workers?</p>
<p>
Yan: Workers performing boring tasks would repeat the same action
over and over again. On the other hand, our bodies need more exercise
and stretch our limbs from time to time to maintain a healthy life.
If a group of muscles was overused, it will hurt and result in
occupational disease. I held sport activities to make our workers
healthy, to minimize occupational disease, and to provide leisure and
healthy hobbies for workers. Activities such as fishing team and
non-Olympic games encouraged people to exercise and be happy. If you
organize appropriate contests, people who do not exercise enough
would participate.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: You organize a lot of games. Do you remember some games that gave
you the deepest sense of achievement?
</p>
<p>
Yan: <i>Nan Fang Daily</i> in Guangzhou reported my company’s
events. Departments of the city government would invite me to chair
and organize [events]. They thought my activities were more lively
and catered to all age groups, such as evening parties for all
seasonal occasions, Lunar festival parties for children, “Respect
the elderly” festival for retirees, social dance for employees,
karaoke contest and simple events such as flower arrangement contest
or even fashion contest for female workers. Sport contests were often
held, occasionally we had non-Olympic games. The employees were
pleased with it. The employees have different likings and love to
have assorted choices, many workers were very satisfied.</p>
<p>
Once there was a worker who had not joined our activities for
decades, because the tickets were limited and they were all taken
away by leaders from the management, pioneer workers, superviors and
model workers. No tickets were left to the workers. Hence I broke the
tradition, on May 1<sup>st</sup> International Labor Day, no tickets
were issued and all the worker could join in.</p>
<p>
A “South vs. North contest” was held in the hall, with
singing. The success of the party relied on interaction between those
performed on stage and the audience below the stage. The audience
below the stage was usually not so keen, but whenever I organized the
“South vs. North contests” , audience from both sides
could participate. At the same [I would announce] that if the
audience from the northern gate won, the prizes for those both on and
below the stage would be much more. That helped make the audience get
more involved and promote interaction between them. The cheerleaders
of course put in a great deal of effort- this is just some of my
experiences.</p>
<p>
Q: You led a colorful life in China. Why did you come to the United
States originally?</p>
<p>
Yan: It was mainly due to the fact that my brother was in the United
States. He applied for us 11 years ago. I did not want to come
because I was passionate about my job there and I had assorted
hobbies. Later on, it would be better for my children’s
education. My friends also persuaded us to come, for the sake of my
children’s education.</p>
<p>
Q: Before you came, what was your
impression of New York Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Yan: I had heard about it. I already knew coming to the States was
not to enjoy a luxurious life, life could be a bit boring . [It was
because] I had this thinking initially and also because I don’t
know English, only a few words.</p>
<p>
Before I came to the United States, some people already warned me
that Chinatown was very dirty. I witnessed it indeed after I came.</p>
<p>
Q: When did you come to the United States?</p>
<p>
Yan: In 1999.</p>
<p>
Q: Where did you live when you came here?</p>
<p>
Yan: I have been living in Brooklyn ever since. I worked for a
restaurant.</p>
<p>
Q: What kind of restaurant was that?</p>
<p>
Yan: A restaurant in Chinatown.
</p>
<p>
I never worked in the catering business before and was referred by
others. Since I don’t know English, I work in Chinatown.
</p>
<p>
Q: What did you do initially?</p>
<p>
Yan: I was a busboy.</p>
<p>
Q: Was United States the same as what you expected?</p>
<p>
Yan: I knew I had to work hard [in the United States]. I did not want
to come because I’m old, and am not able to work hard because
I’m stamina is limited. The biggest barrier was not
knowing English. Being here is like living in another
society, [I’m] not accustomed to many things because of the
difference in skin color. Had to find jobs that can do without
English.</p>
<p>
Q: How big was the restaurant?</p>
<p>
Yan: It was a banquet restaurant which served dim sum and meals.</p>
<p>
Q: How long you worked?</p>
<p>
Yan: For almost 4 years.</p>
<p>
Q: What was your salary?</p>
<p>
Yan: It was hard to compare. If we earned and used money in the same
place, the standard of living would be the same in different places.
The basic salary plus tips varied each month. The more banquet
orders, the more the tips. Tips earned during the dim sum shift were
less. [It happened that I earned] less than $1000 a month, and even
$800. On average, $1200.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was the salary enough? Did your wife need to help out?</p>
<p>
Yan: Definitely. She also worked in a restaurant.</p>
<p>
Q: Was your restaurant affected by 9/11?</p>
<p>
Yan: The economy after 9/11 was bad. [The restaurant] was closed for
a while, then reopened for a while, then closed for a while, in the
end it shut down.
</p>
<p>
Q: When it was closed, did the employer give you any severance pay?
How did the company treat its workers?</p>
<p>
Yan: No severance payment. [Our] wages were still owed. Ha! Ha!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: After it was closed, the employers fled. What happened to the
wages of so many people?</p>
<p>
Yan: The workers were scattered everywhere, they were owed a few
months worth of salary.</p>
<p>
Q: When you worked in the United States and were mistreated by
Chinese employers. How did you feel?</p>
<p>
Yan: At the time, it would be nice to meet people from my old culture
in a different land. So I was deeply [hurt] when I ran into a
heartless employer in a foreign land. In fact, in US, the Chinese
community is very complicated.</p>
<p>
Q: Protests were staged at the New Silver Palace restaurant. Did you
participate in the protest to fight for your benefits?
</p>
<p>
Yan: We are new immigrants, we did not know the history of this
place. I just wanted to look for a job and live a stable life. Ever
since 9/11, it was very difficult to find a job.</p>
<p>
Q: Later on, did you try looking for jobs elsewhere?</p>
<p>
Yan: People would ask you where you worked before, once they heard it
they would ask you to leave a phone number, but there’s
[always] no news. A lot of people are unemployed these days . Job
hunting is hard, it depends on your age. When they looked at me and
asked you to put down the phone number…Unable to master basic
English, not knowing a few phrases of simple English, [it was]
impossible to find a job.</p>
<p>
Q: When comparing before and after 9/11, was it harder to find a
job[after 9/11]?</p>
<p>
Yan: Definitely. Many restaurants and garment factories [closed
down]. A lot of people were unemployed. Now my wife is the one has a
job.
</p>
<p>
Q: Where does your wife work?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Yan: In a restaurant, in Brooklyn.</p>
<p>
Q: What were you doing when 9/11 happened?</p>
<p>
Yan: When 9/11 happened, I had a day off and rested at home. We
didn’t turn on the television, since we don’t know
English. It was from long distance phone calls from Hong Kong and
Guangzhou which [they] told us not to go out because New York was
being attacked, they watached the planes crash. Originally, I planned
to take pictures on that day but rescheduled it to Wednesday,
September 12<sup>th</sup>. So I stayed home. After the phone call, I
took out my camera and wanted to take photos, but the traffic was
already dead. Because of my passion in photography, out of a
photographer’s instinct I would capture the breaking [news]
events [with my lenses], but I didn’t realize the incident was
so serious.</p>
<p>
Q: When 9/11 happened, did the restaurants stay open?</p>
<p>
Yan: [They were] shut right away, but not closed down, after a while
[they] reopened. When the restaurant shut, I waited for a few months
for it to reopen, no income for those few months.</p>
<p>
Q: Were there any community groups [offering] such as disaster
assistance fund?
</p>
<p>
Yan: We did not know English, applied very late. But did apply, such
as [benefits from] Red Cross, Safe Horizon. But that was the second
year after the events, many months later.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was it because [you] did not know that application were available
or were there other reasons?</p>
<p>
Yan: No, I learnt it from other co-workers.</p>
<p>
Q: How much was the subsidy?</p>
<p>
Yan: Safe Horizon [offered] $2500, and
there was Red Cross and Food Stamp.
</p>
<p>
Q: Could you make it through?</p>
<p>
Yan: The restaurant re-opened but the business was sluggish ever
since. Later, I got some subsidies, last year I received subsidies to
learn English, applying through Safe Horizon.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you expect the economy could be so bad?</p>
<p>
Yan: It was beyond my expectation. New York was a tourist city,
without tourists, the restaurant industry would collapse and many
would close down.</p>
<p>
Q: When 9/11 happened to the United States, has it changed your
impression of the United States? What kind of revelations do you
have?</p>
<p>
Yan: It is beyond my imagination to see such a huge terrorism attack
happened within the United States and the degree of terror of the
terrorism event. It was out of my mind, unthinkable.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you still love the United States, the country?</p>
<p>
Yan: United States itself is very democratic, she may have accumulate
some resentment from the Arabic world for favoring one side and make
the other side of the Arabic world anger. I don’t know much
about politics.</p>
<p>
Q: After all these years in the United State, do you consider the
United States as your home?</p>
<p>
Yan: My whole family emigrated to the United States, United States is
my home.</p>
<p>
Q: After your arrival, what was your first impression of Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Yan: When I first arrived in New York. Two main features of my
impress - good air quality and orderly traffic, better than that in
mainland China.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: What is your impression of the Chinese community?</p>
<p>
Yan: Chinese people are faced with serious language barrier in the
United States, [at least] in the hearts of local Americans. Used to
hear that [the Chinese are] turning into third class citizens in
United States, I have mixed feelings [on that] after I came. Part of
the big reason is that others see you as third class citizens since
you are not doing good enough [to attain] social moral, professional
ethics. For example, when boarding the subway, the Americans would
[let others] off first then get on, very polite. But when it comes to
some Chinese people, they swarmed in that outrages the Americans and
leaves an impression that the Chinese are impolite. Besides, spitting
on the ground, littering, ignoring the traffic signal are common
phenomenon. Before I emigrated, people already say “Chinatown
is the dirtiest”, this is a problem with our cultural standard.
It affects civil virtue and professional ethics.</p>
<p>
Q: You organized a lot of activities before, did you utilize your
expertise in the United States?</p>
<p>
Yan: We don’t know English. I am not familiar [with the
country]. I don’t get to know a handful of people, no clue [as
in how to start].</p>
<p>
Q: You led a hard life here. What do you think is the difference of
quality of living here?</p>
<p>
Yan: It is hard to judge the quality of living. [You] enjoy life in
China with [whatever that is available to you] , in here, [you can]
enjoy [whatever is available to you here]. But since we don’t
know English, we cannot enter the mainstream society, no enjoyment,
no night life. But Americans [do have it] - the night scene at 42<sup>nd</sup>
Street, Soho area is very lively. Because our and theirs living
habits are different, [and we] don’t know English, no night
life. Also, we finish work late, unlike the 8-hour shift system in
China- [be it] 9am to 5pm or 8am to 4pm. In China, usually [we] have
dinner at 6pm, then karaoke after the meal, the cultural life [there]
is lot more lively.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: As you see, what is the main entertainment [here for the
Chinese]?</p>
<p>
Yan: The best entertainment is watching
video tapes, renting video tapes is the most popular entertainment.
</p>
<p>
Q: Without exercises, what kind of effects it will have on physical
and mental health?</p>
<p>
Yan: Working for more than ten hours then head home to watch video
tapes is not so good. Life is all about moving, with enough exercises
it will benefit the body and helps with work [efficiency]. It is
because at work, [we often] repeat a certain movement. Sports mean
movement for all of the body, balancing all the bones and exercises
muscles. [It] Lowers the chance of occupational ailments such as
erosion of waist muscles [and] back aches.
</p>
<p>
Q: You worked in the restaurant business before. What are the common
occupational ailments there?</p>
<p>
Yan: That area is not my expertise, but I have heard that in
restaurants, [workers] suffer mostly from waist and leg pains.
Working more 10 hours [really] hurt the feet of the waiters.
Inactivity can lead to the so called waist and leg pains.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Yan, you came with your wife and daughter. How did you get to
know your wife?</p>
<p>
Yan: Referred by someone.</p>
<p>
Q: What was her occupation?</p>
<p>
Yan: At that time, she was a “Zhi Qing”, sent down to the
country. An educated youth who spent time in rural village.</p>
<p>
Q: Did she work in the factory or other organization?</p>
<p>
Yan: Even after the referral by others, she still had to work in the
countryside at the time. She returned to the city later and worked in
the factory.</p>
<p>
Q: How long were you married?</p>
<p>
Yan: We were married for 22 years.</p>
<p>
Q: When you told your wife that you were coming to the United States,
how did she feel? Was she willing to come?</p>
<p>
Yan: She was not willing to come at all.</p>
<p>
Q: How did you convince her?
</p>
<p>
Yan: I said that the child could have a better education. My big
brother already filed the application for us. My parents [already]
passed away, [with] no brothers in Guangzhou. My sister emigrated
together [with us], so the siblings all go to the United States
together.</p>
<p>
Q: What does your older brother do in the United States?</p>
<p>
Yan: My older brother works in the restaurant industry.</p>
<p>
Yan: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: Did he own his business, or …..?</p>
<p>
Yan: He works [as an employee].</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have other job besides? Or your brother found a job for
you?</p>
<p>
Yan: My brother referred me to the job. When there was a vacancy, I
was asked to work there.</p>
<p>
Q: How old is your daughter?</p>
<p>
Yan: She is 19 years old.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Is your daughter studying?</p>
<p>
Yan: She is in high school.</p>
<p>
Q: How is her education environment? She grows up in a foreign
environment. Does she know Chinese?</p>
<p>
Yan: Yes, she writes and reads Chinese. I asked her to practice more
writing Chinese at home and use English more often to communicate
with American students outside home, but she likes to stick with
Chineses [here].</p>
<p>
Q: Where is she studying?</p>
<p>
Yan: She [is studying] in Brooklyn. According to the zoning system,
the arrangement is called bilingual education, I am not so clear
about this. At the beginning, she did not understand certain lessons
and the teacher went on and did not care whether she understand or
not. As time went on, it actually improved the standard of her
English.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you hope that your child retain her Chinese tradition and at
the same time wish her enter the mainstream. How do you manage that,
any challenges are faced with?</p>
<p>
Yan: I want her to communicate more often with American students and
raise her English standard. But she likes to stay with Chinese
students. The school environment encourages desegregation. People
gathered by groups. Chinese stayed with Chinese and did not mingle
with western students.</p>
<p>
Q: Which school is your daughter studying at?</p>
<p>
Yan: On 86<sup>th</sup> Street further away from Avenue U. It should
be Lafayette High School.
</p>
<p>
Q: Is that the school which had
violence incidents recently?</p>
<p>
Yan: Probably the one.</p>
<p>
Q: Are you worried?</p>
<p>
Yan: So I asked her to watch out, leave right away after school,
don’t walk alone, and don’t stay for long after school.
Harmony is foremost important, if any argument occurs, just don’t
bother with trivial matters. On top of that, she is pretty quiet, not
very sociable.</p>
<p>
Q: What is your expectation of her?</p>
<p>
Yan: I don’t have any expectation of her. She has her own
thoughts. She hopes to be an artist, fashion design. I let her decide
according to her wishes.
</p>
<p>
Q: A lot of Chinese want their children to become doctors or lawyers.
You give her a lot of freedom?</p>
<p>
Yan: She decides and I give her advice.</p>
<p>
I will not force my view unto her. Nothing should be forced, the
more [you] force them, the more the children will rebel against
[you]. For example, a friend of mine who used to learn musical
instruments with me is now threatening his son to play violin with a
stick if he doesn’t like to play certain instruments. The son
does not learn it heartily, [whenever] the stick is there, he can
play the whole songm but when his wife teaches the kid, he only
played a small section. [The more] the force is, it will only drive
him to lie to his parents.</p>
<p>
Q: The restaurant closed down and owed you wages. Have you ever
thought of claiming back the unpaid wages?</p>
<p>
Yan: We came here and are strangers
here. If [we are] being cheated, we may as well let it be. Since a
lot of people say so, it is impossible to get it back. We are not the
first case, we heard of it happened from time to time. Once the
bosses shut down [restaurant] and went bankrupt, even if there were
auctions, the priority of loan returns would go to the big debtors
first. After a long while, it won’t even reach the workers.
</p>
<p>
Q: How many workers were there in the restaurant?</p>
<p>
Yan: I did not count, but it should be less than a hundred, with 70
to 80. The dinning area has several dozen people. There were also
kitchen, dim sum and dish washing departments.
</p>
<p>
Q: After 9/11, you went through unemployment when the restaurant
closed down. Do you think the government or grass root organizations
had provided enough help to new immigrants?</p>
<p>
Yan: The grass root organizations had helped 9/11 victims
tremendously with donations. However, we were not proficient in
English and we did not understand a lot. We can only hearsay and
apply. For some [of the benefits] we have no clue where to start
from. I know I may be eligible for food stamp. I just don’t
know where to apply.</p>
<p>
Q: Have you got your green card?</p>
<p>
Yan: We received our green cards as soon as we arrived in the United
State.</p>
<p>
Q: [You] can travel in and out of the United State. Have you ever
gone back to China [to visit]?</p>
<p>
Yan: Yes, I went back before.
</p>
<p>
Q: When you returned to China, how did your friends and relatives see
you? “Oh, you went to the United States!”?
</p>
<p>
Yan: In China, the Chinese nowadays are
more familiar with the United States. Many had emigrated to United
States and returned. Mainland Chinese people know bits and pieces of
the United States, just as I knew about the United States by watching
video tapes.</p>
<p>
Q: Before, it was difficult to come to the United States. Once you
arrive in the United States, they think perhaps you have won the
lotto, do they envy you?</p>
<p>
Yan: Some of them. Some people did not want to come even if they were
invited. These are the people who are already wealthy. Some people
would like to come if they have the chance. Both kinds of people
exist.
</p>
<p>
Q: In retrospect, do you think you’ve made a right choice to
come, or are you regretting it?</p>
<p>
Yan: I never regret anything I did, such as my [choice of]
profession. The simplest example would be traveling. Some people say
they regret traveling to some place because it was not fun. I did not
feel that way. I think traveling itself is an enjoyment, don’t
moan about it being not fun. The act itself benefits your mind and
body. If we travel with this intention, [there will be] not regret.</p>
<p>
Q: What is your expectation of the future of your America life?</p>
<p>
Yan: I hope [I can] find a good job but the main [problem] is I don’t
know English.
</p>
<p>
Q: How is you English class?</p>
<p>
Yan: I have, well , finished the course. But we have no basic
training [in the first place] and therefore, did not quite get it. I
only know how to say greetings and asking for prices when shopping.
</p>
<p>
Q: Does it help at all?</p>
<p>
Yan: Somewhat.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have anything to add?</p>
<p>
Yan: No.</p>
<p>
Q: Thank you!</p>
<p>
Yan: Thank you!</p>
<p>
(END OF SESSION)</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:嚴先生,可以講一下你的出生日期及大陸的生活?</p>
<p>嚴:我出生於1950年3月18日,在中國廣州出生。</p>
<p>問:你在廣州的生活如何?</p>
<p>嚴:在廣州生活,經過幾十年,經過一個困難的時期,文化大革命,但是我們比較樂天派,有多方面的愛好,熱愛體育文藝﹑各種樂器,比較開心。</p>
<p>問:你在家鄉的環境如何?有多少兄弟姐妹?</p>
<p>嚴:我出生時,我爸爸是行船的,主要來往香港及廣州之間的客輪,後來賣小文具,書簿筆墨。</p>
<p>問:你的居住環境如何?</p>
<p>嚴:廣州地方寸金尺土,居住的地方不大,父母及四個兄弟姐妹,6人共用20多平方公呎,搭建一個閣樓,算是可以。</p>
<p>問:你以前讀書如何?</p>
<p>嚴:讀書從小學到中學,在居住地附近讀書,因為廣州按地段分配就讀學校。</p>
<p>
問:小時喜歡做什麼?</p>
<p>嚴:小時好動,小學喜愛打乒乓球及其他運動,中學打藍球﹑游泳﹑滾軸溜冰﹑奏多種樂器﹑中樂﹑西樂都玩。</p>
<p>問:中國經歷多次運動,如文革,對你學習方面有什麼影響?</p>
<p>嚴:文化大革命時我剛讀初中二,受的影響比較大,因為上初中剛讀了一年多,遇上文革大革命,全國全面停學,到革命完開始復課時,我們已經到畢業年齡了,因為後期升級,我們就要走,真正初中只讀了一年多,後期在單位補讀高中課程。哈哈!</p>
<p>問:文革時,你做些什麼呢?</p>
<p>嚴:停課時,我們一味搞體育﹑游泳﹑滾軸溜冰,釣魚﹑奏樂器﹑玩民族樂器及西洋樂器。</p>
<p>問:你沒有苦難的日子?</p>
<p>嚴:不算苦難的日子,因為那些年齡比較好動。大家都玩得開心。</p>
<p>問:政治的動盪對你家庭有什麼影響?</p>
<p>嚴:文化大革命取消小商販,父親賣文具店當時取消了,只有租用公用電話維持生計,每分鐘幾分錢。</p>
<p>
問:那你爸爸經營電話,媽媽呢?</p>
<p>嚴:媽媽做家務。賣文具幫手。</p>
<p>問:你的兄弟姐妹後來大概從事什麼職業?</p>
<p>嚴:兄弟姐妹在廣州做過車衣及機械。</p>
<p>問:講述你入廠或上山下鄉的生活?</p>
<p>嚴:我沒有上山下鄉,因為當時我哥哥上山下鄉,我父母年紀比較大,有病,兩兄弟中哥哥已去了海南鄉,我家要我留城照顧雙親,分配入廠。</p>
<p>問:那是什麼年份?</p>
<p>嚴:是1969年分配入廠。</p>
<p>問:在工廠你做什麼工作?</p>
<p>嚴:搞機器維修。後期負責文娛體育活動,組織比賽,策劃晚會。</p>
<p>問:那是什麼廠?</p>
<p>嚴:前身叫廣州水泥廠,現在叫廣州水泥有限公司。</p>
<p>問:嚴先生,你白天要上班,晚上搞活動,你是如何分配你的時間?</p>
<p>
嚴:我們初時下班游泳﹑滾軸溜冰,是業餘時間,曾經有宣傳隊,算是政治任務,有公司假排練﹑演出,比賽,不用上班,但在輪三班,不影響工作時,有時返夜班,日間排練,如可以返工,就繼續返工。<br>
問:你身邊的朋友﹑或你的家人,對你負責搞活動,有什麼看法?</p>
<p> 我父親一向隨和,一個讓我們自由發揮,不反對我們玩樂器,後期半專業,負責組織策劃﹑由教練﹑隊員﹑領隊﹑後勤工作各方面的都兼顧。</p>
<p>問:在水泥廠做了多久?</p>
<p>嚴:做到出國,差不多30年,應29年。</p>
<p>問:這29年來,你兩面工作都兼顧,一面工作,一面搞活動?</p>
<p>嚴:後期,我專職文娛體育工作,沒有計算時間,日夜都做,各大節日聯歡晚會,單位之間的聯歡晚會,職工員工春節園遊晚會﹑供退休工人﹑家屬及孩子,有獎遊戲﹑簡單的比賽。</p>
<p>問:你安排的眾多活動中,有沒有難忘的經驗?</p>
<p>嚴:經驗最重要是按年齡特點安排遊戲節目,如老人家行動不方便,不能玩後生的遊戲,但亦不能大枯燥,搞敬老節,簡單的比賽,適當的獎品。<br>
晚會女士穿高跟鞋,不能爭座位﹑不能逼爆汽球,不能因高跟鞋而踏傷,也不能讓女士跌倒,不能地滑,反而是安排成語,猜謎語等。</p>
<p>問:你搞什麼類型的遊戲?</p>
<p>嚴:如出外開會,沒有道具,又要組織,找一段尼龍包裝線,分組競賽,每組3,4人,一米一段,分成數段,遊戲謂「誠心意長」,將繩結得最長者勝出。這是簡單的遊戲。</p>
<p>比較複雜的,搞「橫行霸道」遊戲,題目貼切,寓教於樂,我將會說,今晚的晚會可以橫行霸道,但生活做人不應橫行霸道。遊戲分兩隊,中間有通道,每隊三個四個人排成一字,在外足腳眼在小竹縛腳眼。哨子一響,眾人橫跨步,向中央靠攏,誰先佔中間通道者勝出,此謂「橫行霸道」。在晚會遊戲中可以橫行霸道,但生活做人不應橫行霸道,因為有此現象出現,提醒人們做人的道理。</p>
<p>問:你的工作是調劑人們緊張的生活,是否對基層市民,錦上添花?</p>
<p>嚴:通常工人做工比較枯燥,工種比較反覆同一動作。身體需要多點活動,多方面的肢體動作,才能支持。如果反覆同一動作,在某方面將會勞損,產生職業病,多開演這一類的活動有益身心健康,對身體有裨益,減少職業病,提高多方面的興趣,好像組織釣魚隊,非奧運體育會,有工作勞動性及趣味性,適當搞比賽,使未受過適當運動的人都可參加。</p>
<p>
問:你搞很多項目,有沒有一些你感覺成功感,大家都讚同?</p>
<p>嚴:在廣州曾經南方日報採訪過公司的活動,市的部門請我去主持及組織策劃。他們認為我搞的活動比較生動,又迎合各種的年齡層次,好像各個節日的晚會,如小孩的春節聯歡晚會,敬老節給退休人士,員工的交誼舞,卡拉ok的比賽,好像簡單如插花比賽,調劑女工的生活。甚至時裝比賽,經常組織體育正式比賽,間中搞非奧運的體育比賽。員工頗為滿意。員工各種愛好不同,有不同的選擇,他們有很多職工比較滿意。</p>
<p> 其中有一個入廠幾十年都未參加過一個晚會,通常因為發票有限,通常中層領導,先進生產者﹑班組長﹑勞動的模範,到工人手上已經沒有票了。我打破傳統,五一國際勞動節不發門票,凡是工人都可參加,在禮台搞個南北擂台賽,有唱歌。成功晚會視乎台上表演和台下觀眾有否溝通。台下觀眾通常不投入,但我舉辦南北擂台,雙方觀眾都可參加,同時抽獎要說明北看台的觀眾勝出,台上及台下的獎品特多。調動觀眾的積極性,使台上台下互相溝通,啦啦隊自然很落力,這是我的一些經驗。</p>
<p>問:其實你在大陸的生活已經多姿多彩,當初為什麼你們來美國生活?</p>
<p>嚴:主要因為我哥哥在美國,他申請我們,申請11年到期,我當時不想來,因為我熱愛自己的工作,又有多方面的愛好。但後來,想起孩子要來讀書比較好,朋友亦勸我們來,為了孩子的教育就來。</p>
<p>
問:你來之前,你對紐約唐人街有什麼印象?</p>
<p>嚴:都略有所聞。我已經知道來美國是捱世界不是歎世界,生活枯燥點。首先自己有這個想法,因為不懂英文,只懂幾個字。</p>
<p> 未來美國時,已有人警告我說,唐人街很污糟邋塌,來到以後親身經歷。</p>
<p>問:你是何時來美國?</p>
<p>嚴:1999年。</p>
<p>問:你來時住在那裡?</p>
<p>嚴:我來時住布碌崙,之後一直住在布碌崙,在餐館工作。</p>
<p>問:是什麼餐館?</p>
<p>嚴:在唐人街的餐館。</p>
<p> 在大陸未曾從事餐館業,別人介紹去做,因為不懂英文,在唐人餐館做。</p>
<p>問:初時是做什麼工作?</p>
<p>嚴:樓面茶水(busboy)</p>
<p>問:你到來的美國和以前想像的美國是否一樣?</p>
<p>嚴:我說知道要來捱世界,不想來是因為知道自己年紀大,很難搏,因為體力受限制。而最大的障礙是不懂英文,<br>
來到這裡是另一個社會的生活,各方面都肯定不習慣,因為膚色不同。要找一些不懂英文都會做的工作。</p>
<p>問:你的餐館多大?</p>
<p>嚴:叫酒樓,有茶市有飯市。</p>
<p>問:有了多久?</p>
<p>嚴:做了差不多四年?</p>
<p>問:薪金多少?</p>
<p>嚴:很難比較,因為在那裡賺錢,在那裡用錢,到處差不多。底薪加花厘,每個月不同,酒席多,花厘多,茶市較少,每月試過不足$1000,甚至800都試過,平均有1200。</p>
<p>問:那薪金足夠嗎?要太太幫手嗎?</p>
<p>嚴:那肯定要,她也在餐館工作。</p>
<p>問:9/11後你的餐館有沒有影響?</p>
<p>嚴:911以後經濟一直差,停業了一陣,又開一陣,又停一陣,最後關門。</p>
<p>問:關門時有沒有遣散費?公司如何如置員工?</p>
<p>嚴:沒有遣散費,人工尚欠。哈哈!</p>
<p>
問:執笠之後,老闆走人。你們多人的工資怎算?</p>
<p>嚴:工人各散東西,都欠個多月的工薪。</p>
<p>問:你在美國打工,被華人僱主對待,你的感覺如何?</p>
<p>嚴:當時,原本是他鄉遇故知就更好,他鄉遇無良僱主感觸很深,如果實際在美國,華人社區很是複雜。</p>
<p>問:新銀宮酒樓示威,你有沒有示威,爭取過自己應有福利?</p>
<p>嚴:我們是新移民,不知道這裡的歷史,本來隨便找一份工作,安穩地生活。可是自從9/11後很難找工。</p>
<p>問:後來你有沒有試過尋找其他工作?</p>
<p>嚴:別人問你在曽經在那裡工作,聽後叫你留下電話,就沒有消息。現在很多人都失業,找工作難,要看年齡,當時看你樣子,叫你寫下電話,基本的英語一句都不會,連起碼簡單的英文都不懂。根本找不到工作。</p>
<p>問:9/11之前及9/11之後比較,找工是否更困難?</p>
<p>嚴:肯定,很多餐館及衣廠執笠(關閉),很多失業。現在我太太一份工。</p>
<p>問:你太太在那裡做工?</p>
<p>
嚴:在餐館做,在布碌崙那面。</p>
<p>問:9/11發生時,你正在做什麼?</p>
<p>嚴:9/11發生時,我正休息在家,我們沒有開電視,因為不懂英文,反而接到香港及廣州的長途電話,叫不要出街,因為紐約受襲擊,他們看見飛機撞了,本來當天約了同事拍照,後來改在星期三,9月12日,故此留在家中。聽了電話以後,取照相機,想拍照,交通已經癱瘓,因為當時自己愛好攝影,突發事件都叫我本能地拍攝,但不知道後來事件這麼嚴重。</p>
<p>問:9/11發生時,餐館有沒有開店?</p>
<p>嚴:馬上關門,沒倒閉,關了一陣子重開。酒樓暫時關閉的時候,我幾個月,等開門,那幾個月沒有收入。</p>
<p>問:有沒有民間團體,譬如賑災基金?</p>
<p>嚴:我們不懂英文,很遲才申請,但申請過,好像紅十字會﹑安全線,當時已經是事發後第二年,是幾個月後的事情。</p>
<p>問:那是因為不知道有得辦,或是其他?</p>
<p>嚴:不知道,是聽工友講才辦。</p>
<p>問:補助有多少?</p>
<p>嚴:安全線有$2500,其他紅十字會,糧食券。</p>
<p>
問:當時還可以?</p>
<p>嚴:因為餐館又重來,但以後很淡,後來拿過一些補貼,去年津貼讀書學英文。辦安全線。</p>
<p>問:當時有沒有想過經濟可以這樣差?</p>
<p>嚴:當時有沒有想過,因為紐約是一個旅遊城市,既沒有遊客,餐館業垮下去,很多甚至關門。</p>
<p>問:美國發生9/11事件,你對美國的印象有沒有改變?對你有什麼啟示?</p>
<p>嚴:在美國本土出現這麼大的恐怖襲擊,不可思議,又看到恐怖事件的恐怖程度,真的是不可想像,無孔不入。</p>
<p>問:你還喜歡美國這個國家?</p>
<p>嚴:本身美國很民主,她可能對亞拉伯世界國家的積怨,因為支持某一方面因而得罪另一面亞拉伯世界,政治上的事情我不太懂。</p>
<p>問:來了美國這麼多年,你有沒有當美國是你的家?</p>
<p>嚴:整家人移民來美國,當美國是我的家。</p>
<p>問:移民來了,你對華埠的第一印象如何?</p>
<p>嚴:剛來紐約,第一印象有兩大特點,空氣素質很好,交通秩序很好,比大陸好。</p>
<p>
問:你對華人社區的看法如何?</p>
<p>嚴:華人在美國語言障礙很大,在美國本土人心目中,以前聽聞在美國變成三等公民,來到後感觸良多,但別人是否視你為三等公民,是自己做得不好,才是其中一大原因,對社會公德,職業道德。如生活上乘地鐵,老番在地鐵先落後上,很有禮拜,但相當一部份的華人,一窩蜂踴入,使美國人不滿,變了華人沒有禮貌的印象。此外,隨地吐痰,丟棄雜物,不看燈號,這些現象很普遍。我未移民時已有人說,唐人街最污糟,是文化素質的問題,影響到社會公德,職業道德等問題。</p>
<p>問:你以前搞活動,你在美國有沒有運用這方面的專長?</p>
<p>嚴:我們不懂英文,人生路不熟,不認識幾個人,茫無頭緒。</p>
<p>問:你來到覺得在捱世界,你覺得生活質素有什麼不同?</p>
<p>嚴:生活質素很難評定,在大陸生活有大陸的享受在大陸生活,在這邊有這邊享受,但是我們不懂英文,不能打入主流社會,就說沒有享受,沒有夜生活。但美國人在42街,蘇豪區,夜市很熱鬧。但因為我們和他們生活習慣不同,不懂英文,沒有這夜生活。而且我們做工下班比較遲,不像大陸的8小時工作制,朝九晚五或朝八晚四,大陸通常六時晚飯,飯後卡拉ok,文娛生活比較豐富,</p>
<p>問:你所見,最大的娛樂?</p>
<p>
嚴:最大的娛樂是看錄影帶,租帶看是最大的樂趣。</p>
<p>問:沒有做運動,對身心的健康有什麼影響?</p>
<p>嚴:返工做十多點鐘,回家看錄影帶,不太好。因為生命在於運動,如適當運動,對身體有好處,對工作上幫助很大。因為通常工作是重覆某個動作,運動才是全身運動,整個人的骨骼﹑肌肉運動,比較均衡,減少職業病,甚至腰肌勞損,腰腿痛之類。</p>
<p>問:你曾在餐館工作,他們最大的弊病或職業病是什麼?</p>
<p>嚴:在這方面,我沒有深入研究,但也略有所聞。餐館工作腰骨痛及腳痛最嚴重,如企檯10小時工作對於腳很傷,如不活動就有後患,所謂腰腿痛。</p>
<p>問:嚴先生,你和太太及女兒一起來,你如何認識你太太?</p>
<p>嚴:在廣州由別人介紹。</p>
<p>問:你那時是什麼職業?</p>
<p>嚴:那時是知青,上山下鄉,到農村的知識青年。</p>
<p>問:她是廠或什麼機構工作?</p>
<p>嚴:在別人介糿之下,她那時仍在鄉下,後來回城,入廠工作。</p>
<p>
問:你們結婚多久?</p>
<p>嚴:結婚至今已22年。</p>
<p>問:那當時你說來美國,她覺得怎樣,願不願意來?</p>
<p>嚴:本身她不想來。</p>
<p>問:那你如何說服她?</p>
<p>嚴:那我說孩子可以讀書,大哥申請我們,父母又去世了,已經沒有兄弟在廣州,姐姐又一同移民來,都是全家兄弟姐妹一起在美國。</p>
<p>問:你兄長在美國做什麼?</p>
<p>嚴:我哥哥在美國做餐館工作。</p>
<p>嚴:是的。</p>
<p>問:他是自己開抑或其他?</p>
<p>嚴:打工。</p>
<p>問:你有沒有做其他事,還是哥哥找工作?</p>
<p>嚴:哥哥介紹我這份工,有位就叫我去做。</p>
<p>問:你的女兒多大?</p>
<p>嚴:我的女兒19歲。</p>
<p>
問:你的女兒讀書?</p>
<p>嚴:她讀高中。</p>
<p>問:你覺得女兒的讀書環境如何?因為她在外地環境長大,她懂中文嗎?</p>
<p>嚴:懂。她會講會寫中文,我叫她在家多練中文多寫,外出要求和老番學生多溝通,但她喜歡和唐人圈子在一起。</p>
<p>問:她在那裡讀書?</p>
<p>嚴:她在布碌崙這一邊,當時按區及安排叫雙語教育,我不十分清楚。開始時,她也有些科聽不清楚,不過老師照講,不理會她是否聽明白,時間久了,反而她對英文的能力提高了。</p>
<p>問:你希望你的子女保留中國傳統,同時又希望她融入主流,管教上有什麼心得或困難?</p>
<p>嚴:我要求她在學校多點和美國學生溝通,提高她的英語水平,但他們華人學生走在一起,學校的環境如是,物以類聚,人以群分,唐人和唐人群在一起,沒有和外國學生在一起。</p>
<p>問:你的女子讀那一間學校?</p>
<p>嚴:86街過了U大道,應該是拉菲逸高中。</p>
<p>
問:那是不是那間傳出暴力事件的高中?</p>
<p>嚴:應該是。</p>
<p>問:那你不擔心?</p>
<p>嚴:那我就叫她留意一下,放學就離開,有事不要一個人,不要在學校逗留長時間,萬時以和為貴,萬一有事有爭拗,如小事就算數,加上她的人平時比較安靜,不好交往。</p>
<p>問:你想她怎樣?</p>
<p>嚴:我不想她做什麼,現在她有自己的想法,她想從事藝術,時裝設計,我隨她心意發展。</p>
<p>問:華人父母不是想她做醫生﹑律師,你對她很自由?</p>
<p>嚴:她自己選擇,只不過我和她分析一下,這方面的發展及強逼程度,因為不可以強逼,越是強逼孩子越會有反叛心理。如果她不喜歡某種樂器,像我朋友自少和我一起學樂器,現在拿著藤條教兒子小提琴,兒子學得不深刻,有藤條在他可以彈一整段曲,但由太太教小孩時,拉一段就說完成了,強逼反而會欺騙父母。</p>
<p>問:酒樓關門欠你們薪金,現在有沒有想過要索取欠薪?</p>
<p>
嚴:我們來到這裡,人生路不熟,給欺騙了就算,知道追不回來,很多人都說,就這樣算了,也不是我們第一宗受騙,時有所聞,老闆一關門破產就沒有了,就算變賣﹑拍賣也會先還給大債主,很久也不輪到工人。</p>
<p>問:餐館多少人?</p>
<p>嚴:我沒有統計,但應該沒有一百,也有70至80人,光是樓面幾十人,還有廚房部﹑點心部﹑洗碗部。</p>
<p>問:經過9/11後,你經過失業﹑茶樓關閉,你覺得政府對新移民的幫助或民間團體做得足夠嗎?</p>
<p>嚴:民間團體對於9/11受害者的捐助或幫助很大,但我們不懂英文,很多不知道,過後聽聞有得辦就去辦,有些辦不到,無從入手,好像現在有糧食券,我也不知如何去辦?</p>
<p>問:現在你的綠卡已辦了沒有?</p>
<p>嚴:我們一來美國就有了綠卡。</p>
<p>問:可以出入美國,有沒有回去?</p>
<p>嚴:有,回去過。</p>
<p>問:你回去的時候,親戚朋友如何看你?噢,你去過美國!</p>
<p>
嚴:國內現時已對美國比較熟悉,很多移民到美也回去過,大陸居民對美國不知一二,也知三四,好像我以前看錄影帶知道美國的部份。</p>
<p>問:以前來美國比較難,如你來美國,他們可能覺得你中了六合彩,他們有沒有羨慕你?</p>
<p>嚴:都有這些人,但有些人請也不會來,他們已經有錢,一般人都說有機會會來美國,兩者都有可能。</p>
<p>問:回頭看來美國的決定時,你覺得是正確的決定,或是你覺得有點後悔?</p>
<p>嚴:我從來做事沒有後悔,如職業等,最簡單舉例說旅行,人們說去那裡,說很後悔,沒有好玩的。我不以為然,因為本身旅遊就是一種好享受,就不要怨不好玩,本身旅遊就是身心愉快。抱著這個想法,不會後悔。</p>
<p>問:以後對美國生活的期望?</p>
<p>嚴:期望找一份好工,但主要不懂英文。</p>
<p>問:你讀英文的情況怎樣?</p>
<p>嚴:叫做讀完。但我們本身完全沒有基礎。所讀的不三不四,只有問候語,購物問價錢。</p>
<p>問:有沒有幫助?</p>
<p>嚴:有些少幫助。</p>
<p>問:你有沒有什麼要補充?</p>
<p>嚴:沒有什麼。</p>
<p>問:多謝你。</p>
<p>嚴:謝謝!</p>
<p>(完)</p>
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Guo Gan Yan
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interview
-
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Henry Chung
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Florence Ng
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-02-26
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
CCBA
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: Today is February 26<sup>th</sup>, 2004. This is the Chinatown
Oral History Project of Museum of Chinese in the Americas. Today, we
invited Mr. Henry Chung, former president of Chinese Consolidated
Benevolent Association (CCBA). The interviewer is me, I-ching Ng. Mr.
Chung, when were you born?</p>
<p>
Chung: I was born on [September 29th] 1919.</p>
<p>
Q: Where are you from?</p>
<p>
Chung: I’m from Mei county in Guangdong province, China.
</p>
<p>
Q: Why did you come to the United States?</p>
<p>
Chung: Actually I went to India in 1937. My brother-in-law had
business over there. I went there to help him out. When World War II
ended, I went to New York, the United States from India.</p>
<p>
Q: Why did you decide to go to India at that time?</p>
<p>
Chung: At that time, I just finished my high school. My father asked
me to go to India and helped my brother-in-law in India. So, I went
there, to India. Besides, at the time, the Japanese invaded China and
waged a war in China.</p>
<p>
Q: What did you do in India?</p>
<p>
Chung: I went to India and worked at my
brother-in-law’s leather factory. Later on I worked for an
agency and came to the United States in 1949.</p>
<p>
Q: How was life in India?</p>
<p>
Chung: Life in India, well… For the Chinese there, besides
leather factories, they operated lumber yards, import and export
companies, grocery stores, almost every kind of business…with
daily wages ranged from about four to five dollars a day. At that
time, during war time, many ships stationed in India and could not
embark their journeys. Because of that, many sailors and Chinese
people had to [temporarily stay] in India.
</p>
<p>
Q: Among the Chinese in India, were they mainly comprised of people
from Canton or Hakka?</p>
<p>
Chung: They were mainly Cantonese.</p>
<p>
Q: Ok. Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, when you were in Mainland
China…How was your family? Could you please talk about your
family? How many family members were there in your family?</p>
<p>
Chung: My family? My parents passed away, and so were my eldest
brother and my other brothers and sisters. But, I have a son and
grandchildren in mainland China.
</p>
<p>
Q: Ok. What did you expect when you first come to the United States?</p>
<p>
Chung: When I first came… This was how I came to the United
States. I originally intended to return to my hometown. However, when
I was staying in United States, the communist was fighting with
Kuomintang in mainland China, and September 18<sup>th</sup> incident
[signify the beginning of Japanese invasion] broken out. Hence, I was
stuck in the United States and could not return to China. [I wanted
to return to China but the Communist had already crossed the river
and occupied the mainland.]
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: That is to say, during your boat ride…?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, initially I decide to go to Hong Kong from the United
States. But since the Communists already went south from the river
and occupied the mainland, I stayed here and didn’t return.</p>
<p>
Q: Was it easy to enter the United States?</p>
<p>
Chung: It was not so easy. I bought ship tickets back in India... It
was not so easy. [I only intended to wait here until the war was
over, so I stayed in New York.]
</p>
<p>
Q: When did you come to the United States?
</p>
<p>
Chung: In 1949.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you live in Chinatown then?</p>
<p>
Chung: When I first came, I worked in a restaurant. My friend
referred me to work as a waiter in the restaurant. After that, I came
to work in Chinatown and worked as a secretary, later the president
of Hakka Association.
</p>
<p>
Q: That is to say, you did not work in Chinatown from the very
beginning? Where were you…?</p>
<p>
Chung: Initially, I learned to be a waiter in a Chinese restaurant
[on Long Island] and later worked [formally] as a waiter.
</p>
<p>
Q: Where was the restaurant?</p>
<p>
Chung: The restaurant [that I worked later on] was in New Jersey.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Were there a lot of Chinese people in New Jersey?</p>
<p>
Chung: Oh, only very few. However, we only worked there. Every week
we returned to New York.
</p>
<p>
Q: How did you go back, with……?</p>
<p>
Chung: We had a car. The restaurant picked us up by the car. When we
had our day-off, we came back to New York by car.</p>
<p>
Q: There were no long haul buses [in Chinatown] as we have now,
right?</p>
<p>
Chung: No, it wasn’t that convenient.
</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, Mr. Chung, what was your first impression when you came to
the United States?</p>
<p>
Chung: When I first came, I thought the United States was quite good.
There’s plenty of freedom. So long as you did not break the law
and not do any harm to others, you can do whatever you want. It was
relatively free and that was good. Especially when mainland China had
a civil war and we were not able to return. I had no choice but to
stay here.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was it the first time you were involved in the restaurant
business?</p>
<p>
Chung: At the beginning, I started as a waiter. Then I ran my own
restaurant.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, you ran a restaurant?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yeah, I worked in the Hakka Association as a secretary and
later as its president. I also opened stores: florist, café,
and later opened my restaurant.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. When did you finally move to
Chinatown and live there?
</p>
<p>
Chung: I lived in Chinatown all the time. That is to say, apart from
the time working as a waiter in New Jersey, I lived in Chinatown all
the time.</p>
<p>
Q: How was Chinatown back then?</p>
<p>
Chung: The Chinatown in New York was sparsely populated and not as
busy as in Hong Kong. It was already considered busy when there were
eight to ten people walking on the streets. Now both sides of the
street are full of pedestrians. [Now is much more crowded than
before.]</p>
<p>
Q: How big was Chinatown? How many streets were there?</p>
<p>
Chung: The old Chinatown was comprised of Mott Street, Bayard Street
and Mulberry Street. The Italians lived on Canal Street. Later on,
Chinatown expanded from Mulberry to Canal Street, then to Houston
Street. The development has been more rapid during the past ten to
twelve years. Now, the Chinese store signs are everywhere. Chinese
are everywhere.
</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, what was the main group of immigrants in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chung: At that time, it was in 1962 when President Kennedy said China
had an exodus of refugees. He increased the immigrant quota to
25,000. Hence, 25,000 people arrived. We had record of it, since the
National Chinese Welfare Association organized the arrangements
[according to President Kennedy’s Act]. An [annual] quota of
25,000 [immigrants] was assigned to the Asian countries, including
China. The same quota remained until now.
</p>
<p>
Q: Were Cantonese the main group of immigrants?</p>
<p>
Chung: At the beginning, they were
mainly Cantonese. But now, there are people come from everywhere,
especially folks from Fujian.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you anticipate that Chinatown would undergo such a rapid
development?</p>
<p>
Chung: I did not expect it back then. The government and some
property developers wanted to demolish the Division Street. But they
did not do it in the end. Instead, the government encouraged
renovation, and offered loans to residents to fix the apartments.
That was what happened.
</p>
<p>
Q: When was that?</p>
<p>
Chung: That was the year 1972.After that, the president was Janson
(Johnson) and launched the anti-poverty project.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was Division Street mainly occupied by the Chinese?</p>
<p>
Chung: Back then, Division Street was nicknamed “Hat Selling
Street”. The Jewish sold women’s clothing and hats on
both sides of the street. The Chinese did not know the real name [of
the street] and just called it the “Hat Selling Street”.
People knew it was the place to buy hats, so they kept calling it as
the “Hat Selling Street”.</p>
<p>
Mrs. Chung: They sold clothing too.
</p>
<p>
Q: Break here?</p>
<p>
Photographer: Go ahead.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, How long did you work for the first restaurant?</p>
<p>
Chung: I worked there for over a year.
Then I came back to work as a secretary [for Hakka Association].</p>
<p>
Q: For Hakka Association?</p>
<p>
Chung: I worked as a secretary for Hakka Association for a little
while. Then I worked for other restaurants.</p>
<p>
Q: Were there many Hakka people?</p>
<p>
Chung: At that time, the Hakka people... There were a few hundreds of
us, Hakka people.</p>
<p>
Q: Ok, Mr. Chung. In 1950s, did immigrants mainly speak Cantonese?</p>
<p>
Chung: [They were] Mainly Cantonese speakers. In 1950s, since a lot
of Chinese became U.S. soldiers and obtained permanent residence. So
they went back [to China] and got married. Then more people came [to
the United States]. So there came a lot of people from everywhere,
not only the Cantonese, but also Chinese from Shanghai and many more
from the other provinces.</p>
<p>
Q: For Chinatown residents who spoke different dialects, were there
any communication problem, in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chung: It was like…this. In the old days, most people spoke
their own local dialects, such as Toishanese and Cantonese. So for
people who spoke northern dialects, they had to write things down
when they went shopping, since the [store owner] had no time to
listen to them. These people even spoke Cantonese with a heavy
accent, sometimes they said, as a joke: “You, Cantonese people
are discriminatory against us, Northerners. When it came to shopping,
you would rather serve others who spoke Cantonese, even though we are
here first.” For people who were doing business, time is
precious. If you can speak [their languages], the store owners could
hand you the things right away. But if you
can’t, you had to write it down, and it took time for
them to read, so, gradually, they only served those who spoke their
dialects and not the Northerners. In fact, they just wanted to do
business quicker, didn’t want to waste time.</p>
<p>
Q: The northern dialect means Mandarin?</p>
<p>
Chung: It depends, some people spoke Mandarin, others could speak
Cantonese – that could also be called the dialect.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, really?</p>
<p>
Chung: So northern dialects mean, the language you spoke to the
northerners. Now, most of us speak Mandarin.
</p>
<p>
Q: In those years, I remembered you mention that, Chinese movies
dubbed in Mandarin were very popular?</p>
<p>
Chung: Mandarin became a popular dialect in 1960s, since many
immigrants who came from mainland China and Taiwan spoke Mandarin.
Gradually more people spoke Mandarin. Also, at that time, everybody
loved to watch movies dubbed in Mandarin and fewer people watched
Cantonese movies. Everybody loved to watch Mandarin movies –
they could learn the dialect at the same time and entertain
themselves. So the movies really helped to promote the dialect in
Chinatown…in terms of learning the language.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, remembered you mention the
grand opening of the building on Division Street? When was that?</p>
<p>
Chung: The building on Division Street…the building of the
association for Hakka people, the Tsung Tsin Association was opened
in 1953. In 1951, we started the renovation and by October 10<sup>th</sup>,
1953, the Tsung Tsin Association was ready to be opened.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know,
you mentioned operated various businesses. Actually which one did you
prefer most? Or were there challenges in all the industries?
</p>
<p>
Chung: At that time, the industries for Chinese were restaurants and
laundromats. Next came the garment factories. There were not that
many garment factories in the 50s. In the 60s, gradually there were
more garment factories. So most of the women among the new immigrants
could work in the garment factories, it helped many families to make
a living. Since the Chinese immigrant needed a job, and his wife
would help out by taking another job [as a garment worker].</p>
<p>
Q: So you opened a restaurant and what els?</p>
<p>
Chung: I opened a restaurant, a florist and a café.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you open the café at the same time?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, I had a spacious store front, so I divided it into two
parts, split it into a florist on one side and a café on the
other side.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Where was the store?</p>
<p>
Chung: On Division Street, right underneath Tsung Tsin Association-
where the Hakka Association used to be. I worked there as a
secretary. Since at that time, not that many people would rent a
store front and do business. There were not that many people like
that.</p>
<p>
Q: If they did not rent store front, were they peddling on the
street?</p>
<p>
Chung: No, they were no peddling on the streets. It was only within
the last decade that the peddlers started selling products on the
streets.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know. Besides the Hakka Association,
were you involved in any other community work?</p>
<p>
Chung: Besides the Hakka Association?</p>
<p>
Q: Did you involve in community work, such as….?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, I did. I worked for Lin Sing Association, the Lin Sing
Association of Eastern coast of the United States.</p>
<p>
Q: What position did you hold?</p>
<p>
Chung: I was the president.</p>
<p>
Q: When was that?</p>
<p>
Chung: I was [the Lin Sing Association] president in 1968. I became
the president of the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association
(CCBA) in 1964. In 1968, I was the president of the Lin Sing
Association. Then in 1972 and again in year 2000, I was elected as
the president of Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung. Could you please tell us, in different era, what were
the different problems that Chinatown were facing. For example, in
1960s when you were the CCBA president, what were the needs you
thought need to be addressed?</p>
<p>
Chung: Oh, in 1960s, at that time, the restaurant business of the
Chinese was thriving. So did the garment factory and they could also
work in the laundromats. So the hand-laundry was phrased out and its
business diminished. As we just said, there were garment factories…
and gradually there were more garment factories.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did Chinatown face any problem that
need to be addressed too, in 1960s?</p>
<p>
Chung: It was hard to say. CCBA had many responsibilities and it
couldn’t accomplish everything. A that time, in the 60s…
actually in the 50s, we had to fundraise to gather capital to build
the building of CCBA…</p>
<p>
Q: That’s now [the existing building]…?</p>
<p>
Chung: We collected over $900,000 for this building at 62 Mott
Street. We gathered almost one million dollars. So, the building was
completed in 1962.
</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, in the beginning…..?</p>
<p>
Chung: We moved in, between1962 to 1964 that we moved in there.
Initially, we didn’t work at that office, we used the office of
Lin Sing Association. But by the time I became the president, we
moved in [the new building] to work. I bought all the furniture and
other items. We moved in there to operate the CCBA till this date.</p>
<p>
Q: You were the first president who worked in the new CCBA building?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes. That was also the first time I became the CCBA president.</p>
<p>
Q: When you first became the president, did you have any plan to
improve Chinatown during your 2-year term?
</p>
<p>
Chung: At that time, think about it…. If you want to
accomplish something, you need financial support, especially for
concrete measures. I helped whenever I could, within my capacity.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Chung: If you didn’t have financial support, you couldn’t
say…you couldn’t push too far.</p>
<p>
Q: Did it take you a long time to fundraise for the building?</p>
<p>
Chung: It took us several years. Fund raising began in 1955, in 1955
we started the fundraising campaign.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was the donation mainly from Chinese immigrants?</p>
<p>
Chung: All the Chinese immigrants and soldiers made contributions. We
had donors from San Francisco, and from the mid-region such as
Chicago, and from Los Angeles, Boston, etc. People from all the
places sent in their donations. Therefore, we called the building
Zhong Hua Da Lou [Building of the Chinese].
</p>
<p>
Q: Ok, shall we take a break here?</p>
<p>
Photographer: Okay, go ahead.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, could you share some stories from your childhood in
mainland China?</p>
<p>
Chung: I went to Singapore with my father when I was seven. We lived
there for one year. Then we moved to Malaysia. My father ran a lumber
business there with his partners. I went to school there until I was
a teenager and returned to China. After I went back to China…I
graduated from high school when I was 17. Then I went to India, at
the time, Japan invaded China and the “Lu Gou Bridge incident”
occurred, so we fled to India.
</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, you spent your life in several places. Where would you
consider as a “home”? Which place gives you the feeling
as your homeland?</p>
<p>
Chung: Home, how to say? Oh, home. To
tell the truth, Southeast Asia was hot and filthy, it had lots
of…garbage. Unless you lived in the residential area of the
white people, it would be much cleaner. But Singapore was pretty
good, Singapore was very clean. But within the Republic of Malaysia,
since we lived in the mountains with my uncle there to collect
rubber…As a kid, I wandered around with other children. Apart
from going to school, we had nothing to do. So I went back to China
when I was a teenager, finished secondary school, then went to India,
where my brother-in-law lived.</p>
<p>
Q: How was the Mei county in Guangzhou like at that time? What kind
of town was it?</p>
<p>
Chung: Mei country in Guangdong. Mei county itself was a town. In the
old days, our Mei county was not so prosperous. But now, it
developed very well. The areas where the fields used to be, are now
covered with buildings, they used to be fields. At the same, many
bridges were built. In around 1937, the Meijiang Bridge was built,
once the Meijing Bridge was built, they started to build other
bridges.</p>
<p>
Q: Was Mei county an industrial town or an agricultural town?</p>
<p>
Chung: An agricultural, agricultural, agricultural town. But now we
don’t have that much agricultural land left, we had lots of
mountains, not enough flat lands.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Were there many people Mei county move out, migrated to other
places?</p>
<p>
Mr. Chung: Yes, many, many of them [left]. Many of our Hakka people
left for the army or become merchants, so they all left to do
business. The women stayed home and worked in the fields.</p>
<p>
Q: Ok, take a break here?</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, in the 60s, was illegal
immigrants a serious problem in 1960s?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Chung: It was like this, in 1960s, illegal entry was common, but we
shouldn’t say it was serious.</p>
<p>
Those who came to the United States were fleeing from political
upheavals in China. They couldn’t live, so they had to flee and
boarded on the ships to the United States or other places. Once they
landed in the United States, they stayed here to live. Therefore, at
that time, the Immigration and Naturalization Services would come to
arrest a whole lot of people. I was the president of CCBA at the
time, so I worked together with others from the National Chinese
Welfare Association and their committee members, and attorneys to…
</p>
<p>
[Phone ringing]</p>
<p>
Q: Let’s take a break.</p>
<p>
Chung: Where were we before?</p>
<p>
Q: The problem of illegal immigration in 1960s...</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, illegal immigration. So that way, many of us Chinese
opened restaurants and we needed many of those immigrants who landed
ashore to work in the kitchens. So, when [immigration enforcement
officers] arresting these workers, we would have nobody to work in
the kitchens, nobody. If you hire somebody else [i.e. Americans],
there may a language barrier, it won’t work. So we went down to
the headquarter of the Immigration and Naturalization Services in
Washington D.C., and to the Congress and pleaded for them. We met
with congressmen and told them, “could we allow them to stay in
the country temporarily, since they [fled] because of political
upheavals in China and there’s no way they could live there.
That’s why they fled to here.” <br>I said…you
Americans put emphasis on humanitarianism, democracy and freedom, and
I said: “I hope they can stay here.” A congressman said,
jokingly, “Mr Chung, you
should
ask your men to marry our girls, the American girls, that will solve
all the problems. Once they are married, they can become citizens.”
That was a joke.</p>
<p>
Q: Was it easy to convince those officials in the beginning?</p>
<p>
Chung: We, in the old days, tried to convince them and they
sympathized with these people. Look, even him, president Kennedy
would allow so many people into the country [through amnesty], they
really sympathized with these immigrants. So he said, “How
about this, we give you a five-year period. He can stay in the
country, by the time he stayed here for the fourth year, he would
have earn enough money by then. He could then go to Hong Kong or
other places to make a living.” So this way, he said, “They
could come in again and stay for four years, when it reaches the
fourth year, we will send them away again.” It was like that.</p>
<p>
Q: Did they call the document a “work authorization”
card, like the one they issue now?</p>
<p>
Chung: There was no work authorization [card]. Actually, the
Immigrant and Naturalization Services would issue a document and
state the [length] of his stay and whether it was already expired.
The paper would also state whether he was allowed to stay in the
country with a parole.</p>
<p>
Q: Actually, did you know how many people benefit from this new
policy, did you make a head count?</p>
<p>
Chung: I did not document that, how do you calculate the number? I
would say, in the past the officers would deport groups of four
hundred to five hundred people. We would negotiate with the
congressmen according to the number of immigrants who were arrested.</p>
<p>
Q: So, the first time you lobbied for four to five hundred people.
How many after that?</p>
<p>
Chung: I don’t know how many
after that. We would met with them and ask them not to deport anymore
people. So they would stop and would not deport any people
temporarily.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know, when the first time you…
became the president of CCBA in 1960,
</p>
<p>
apart from this policy that benefited many Chinese people here, could
you please talk about other tasks you accomplished during your term
at CCBA? For example, you mentioned that there was a school?</p>
<p>
Chung: Other accomplishments in 1960s. Do you mean our elementary and
high school?</p>
<p>
Q: Yes……</p>
<p>
Chung: [We offer] Chinese classes, to teach Chinese. Even the captain
of the Fifth precinct came over, the policemen came here to learn
Chinese.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh really? Where do the classes take place?</p>
<p>
Chung: The school is in the upper floors of our CCBA building.</p>
<p>
Q: How many students are there? At that time, how many students….</p>
<p>
Chung: Students? There were about 2000 of them.</p>
<p>
Q: That many?</p>
<p>
Chung: Now we have more than 3000 students.</p>
<p>
Q: The elementary and high school combine together?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yeah.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have anything to add on the things you have done in 1960s?</p>
<p>
Chung: What about 1960s?</p>
<p>
Q: Do you want to add anything, perhaps other accomplishment of CCBA?</p>
<p>
Chung: What, what do you mean by that?</p>
<p>
Q: Let’s talk about 1970s, when you served the second term as
the president of CCBA. Was the building of Confucius Plaza your
biggest project?
</p>
<p>
Chung: In 1970s, the Confucius Plaza project. It started all because
of Mr. Luo Jinshui [aka Luo Deming]. He read from the newspaper that
the city government has a lot…for the Chinese to build
residential buildings. Therefore, once he saw that, he applied for
it. In order to apply, he had to set up Hua Yuan Company. But when he
went and applied for it [they required] a credit report and had to
them how long the company has to be established. He said the company
was new. Then they [the officials] said: “If your company is
new, how can you convince us that it’s reliable?” So in
that case, they said: “Why don’t you go back and see if
there’s a huge association or organization can represent you in
this matter?” Therefore, Mr. Luo came to meet me and I called
for a committee meeting at CCBA. Several of us met with then New York
city mayor Lindsay and he approved the project. He said, “If
it’s CCBA, of course it will work.” And Lindsay talked to
other commissioners as well. I talked to the mayor, and he agreed to
us and let CCBA work on the project. He was confident that we could
do it. Therefore, we had a meeting at CCBA, after the meeting and
passed on the project to the Chinese Chamber of Commerce of New York.
There are 60 organizations under the umbrella of CCBA and the Chinese
Chamber of Commerce of New York is one of them, and also the biggest
one, that’s why we gave it to them.
</p>
<p>
Q: Actually, was it right that
Confucius Plaza was specially built for elderly and not for the other
age groups?
</p>
<p>
Chung: It was not only for the elderly, but for the middle income
group, middle income. Those with middle income, not necessarily for
the elderly people. Initially, we wanted to build residential units
for the elderly, but there was no appropriate location. We planned to
acquire the sport at 110 Henry Street. We bought it but sold it later
on because it was too small and too old. The plan did not realize.</p>
<p>
Q: When was the Confucius Plaza built?</p>
<p>
Chung: Confucius Plaza was built in 1927, 27 [actually 1973], from
1973 to 1974 and finished in 1975. We moved in and lived here in
December of 1975.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was it easy to gather funds to build this……?</p>
<p>
Chung: The capital was loans from the federal, state and city
government. We have to pay back the loan in 50 years.
</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, a 50-year term loan?</p>
<p>
Chung: Also some of the loan was from the Chinese operated banks,
such as the former Jing Rong Ying Hang, United Oriental Bank. The
funds were mainly from bank loans.</p>
<p>
Q: How much is the rent for an apartment?</p>
<p>
Chung: Um…[monthly rent of an apartment is about 200 dollars]</p>
<p>
Q: How much was the mortgage?</p>
<p>
Chung: Um… [The building management paid for the mortgage. The
tenants paid the rent.]</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: If I pay for the mortgage for an apartment, how much would that
be?</p>
<p>
Chung: How much? A middle income tenant used to pay monthly rent of
$283.</p>
<p>
Q: Is your rent expensive now?</p>
<p>
Chung: Oh, here? For an apartment, for an apartment, we pay at least
$200 for this apartment.
</p>
<p>
Q: Per month?</p>
<p>
Chung: Per month. The government subsidizes part of it.</p>
<p>
Q: Half of it is subsidized. How many apartments are there in
Confucius Plaza?</p>
<p>
Chung: Over 700 units. The sum we just mentioned is for the mortgage.
Oh actually the money was a loan from the federal government, not
from the bank. Actually the Chinatown Day Care Center at that time
was funded by loans from Jing Rong Ying Hang and Chinese American
Bank.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was housing a serious problem in Chinatown back then?</p>
<p>
Chung: Housing, housing was a problem but was not as serious as it is
now. Now, not have many apartments are available. In the past, even
though there was a shortage but one could still find an apartment if
you searched for it. Now, that’s impossible.
</p>
<p>
Q: Take a break here?</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung. Now, let’s talk about the 9/11 incident. You
actually witnessed 9/11, didn’t you?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, at that time when 9/11
happened, at around 8:40a.m., the first building was hit by the plane
hijacked by the terrorists. I saw it in Confucius Plaza, I saw the
thick smoke coming out from the buildings. But I did not think it was
done by the terrorist and thought it was accidentally hit by a plane.
Soon after, the second plane hit the building…</p>
<p>
[In Hakka dialect- Mr. Chung asked Mrs. Chung not to interrupt.]</p>
<p>
Q: Were you in CCBA or at home when this happened?</p>
<p>
Chung: I was downstairs [at Confucius Plaza]. I was about to go
somewhere and saw the scene as soon as I came out of the building?</p>
<p>
Q: You mean at the Confucius Plaza?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, I saw it. Then I tried to use my cell phone to call, but
it didn’t work. Some of my friends with whom I was supposed to
go to a place together came, he also said his cell phone did not work
either. We did not know what goes wrong. Then, the people walked
slowly to our direction, from World Trade Center to Chinatown. More
and more people walked [to Chinatown], like a wave of people. They
walked uptown to the 10-something streets.
</p>
<p>
Q: What action came to your mind when 9/11 happened, what did you
want to do?</p>
<p>
Chung: When 9/11 happened, I went back to the office and pondered on
that. I wasn’t quite sure what happened. At that time, the
planes…and the heavy smoke, the smoke slowly blew towards
Chinatown. I couldn’t figure out how serious was the loss, not
clear about it. So the next day, it turned out that the incident was
very serious, because many policemen, national guards were
everywhere, at the intersections of streets and set up road
blockades. They blocked the streets and would not allow people to
cross them, unless you show them your I.D. to show that you live
there. You could show them your
I.D.
and they would let you in. If you didn’t have any I.D., you
couldn’t go through. So many residents complained: “We
don’t have any status [i.e. they are illegal immigrants] and
you won’t let us in.” So I phoned the captain at the
fifth precinct and asked him to co-operate with me. He said: “How
about this, as long as they tell them [the policemen] where they
live, for those who don’t have any I.D., I can offer some
documents.”
</p>
<p>
So, it made the situation a lot more convenient. For those who were
[in Chinatown] to deliver goods, if they had a signed paper- the
approval from the fifth precinct saying they were doing business in
the area, his truck could go pass the streets. Therefore, it made it
easier. The situation was so chaotic and very tensed. The streets
were empty, like a dead city. No pedestrians, not a soul on the
streets. So some people from other countries would call me and
inquire: “What’s happening over there?” Sometimes I
would tell them, since luckily the telephones at CCBA were working,
they all worked. So…</p>
<p>
Q: Only the phones at CCBA worked and others were out of order?</p>
<p>
Chung: I called for an emergency committee meeting at CCBA. We agreed
that CBA donate $50,000 and asked other community agencies, store
owners, the Chinese public to donate money for disaster relief. That
was to say, those affected by 9/11 would get help. So, in total, we
collected more than $300,000. Through public appeal at the radio
stations, we raised $2 million. Exactly how much [in total] I could
not remember.
</p>
<p>
Q: That was a lot.</p>
<p>
Chung: The radio stationed also donated a lot of money. We presented
the donation to the state governor. We gave $250,000 to September
11th fund. We also gave donations to the police, emergency medical
staff and other medical services. We also gave it to the Red Cross.
We gave away more than $300,000 in total.</p>
<p>
Q: Did all the relief work operate inside the CCBA building?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, that was for collecting donations. Elaine Chao, the
Secretary of U.S. Department of Labor from the federal government,
also sent some of her staff to us. The State government, city
government also sent workers to us. Legal advisors also came. Verizon
the phone company, the Red Cross, and an agency called FEMA also came
to us. So we gave them office space to work in the building of CCBA.
Everyday thousands of people came in and out of the CCBA building.
</p>
<p>
Q: In order to rebuild Chinatown, did the government offer any funds
to help Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chung: To rebuild Chinatown, we had two funding. To revitalize
Chinatown, as we Chinese keep saying, the business plummeted and was
hit hard. So we advertised in Daily News, every Friday we placed an
advertisement, it costs $40,000, only for an advert. Besides, we made
a sign[age], a sign[age]…that didn’t cost any money. It
was given by an architect, he gave it to us. To revitalize Chinatown,
we staged lion dances, lion dance every week, and hired people to
dance, all that cost money.</p>
<p>
Q: That was mainly for promoting tourism in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, to promote tourism in Chinatown. Elaine Chao, the
secretary of U.S. Labor Depart came here twice. The last time she
visited, she gave $1 million funding for job training services to
agencies such as the Chinatown Manpower Project, Asian American For
Equality, Chinese-American Planning Council and others. The $1
million was for that purpose.
</p>
<p>
Q: From secretary Elaine Chao?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, secretary Elaine Chao.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung. How did 9/11 affect Chinatown? Can you tell us more
about that?</p>
<p>
Chung: Oh. Chinatown was dead and had
no business at all for a few days. The impact was huge, the loss was
great… at that time, it was of utmost importance that…anyway,
we all said. A few stores closed down because of 9/11.</p>
<p>
Q: 9/11 happened more than two years ago. How do you find the
progress of rebuilding Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chung: To rebuild Chinatown… the new CCBA president, Mr. Ng,
has continued the works. We initiated a good beginning and that was
very good, we are all working together to revitalize Chinatown. To
revitalize Chinatown, we have to take one step at a time, gradually,
Chinatown will regain its glory. On the other hand, we have to work
on tourism, to promote Chinatown and attract more tourists to visit
here. And for garment factory industry, it will be best if the
government can put in more effort to support it, to revitalize the
garment factory industry. Now, the garment factory has been sluggish,
I know many workers are out of work now and need to get social
welfare from the government.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think there’s any other area in Chinatown that needs
to be addressed immediately? In general, is there anything that needs
to be improved?</p>
<p>
Chung: In order to improve that, it will be best if the housing unit
would be allowed to be built higher. Now the tallest building can
only be a seven- story one. It is better to build a more than twenty-
story building and the streets could be widened. We used to have a
plan, a proposal to revitalize Chinatown. We found somebody to draft
the proposal, there was a proposal. Also, to expand tourism and also
to help the garment factory industry. Also, we need to build more
housing…and to repave the roads, to widen the roads. That has
been our goals, these are our goals.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, after 9/11 happened, has it changed your perspective on
the United States?</p>
<p>
Chung: Oh, this 9/11..for us, Chinese people, we have been very
united this time. So, it had a huge influence on us, we Chinese, were
much more united. The loss to the United States
was so huge, but she [the country] also tried to find ways
to help us…such as the losses… and now, there is LMD[C]
</p>
<p>
Q: LMDC [Lower Manhattan Development Council]?</p>
<p>
Chung: LMDC, it offered financial aids…for example, the alley…
</p>
<p>
Q: So, you…?</p>
<p>
[Tape 009- side1B]</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, yes, yes. The United States is the best in the world.
Where else can you find a better place than here? Especially for the
elderly people. Elderly people enjoy a lot of welfare here.
</p>
<p>
Q: That means, you are very happy with your life here?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: Take a break here?</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, many associations and organizations in Chinatown are
divided into the leftists and the rightists and would not communicate
with each other. Since you have been in Chinatown for so long, can
you come up with ways to solve this political divide?</p>
<p>
Chung: Um…in Chinatown, those people from mainland China came
here to make a living, right? Actually we could all live in peace and
work together. But at that time, the leadership of mainland China
held different ideas against overseas Chinese, and they persecuted
many Chinese. That really changed the climate. So these people, deep
down in the heart, felt the Communism was scary, like a terror. But,
with different generations
here…
they gradually changed their attitude and realized that they
shouldn’t feel shameful of those things [or incidents] happened
in the past. So that was the change. Therefore, in 80s to 90s, the
tension was relaxed. They would not boycott each other, and could
tolerate each other sometimes. At least they would just refuse to
talk to each other, and wouldn’t boycott each other like they
did before. It didn’t happen much. Therefore, I, when I became
the president for the third time [at CCBA], I felt that we are all
Chinese, the same people, above all, we are all brothers when we are
abroad, so we should make peace. Very often, for instance, at the
time of Grand Street closure, we went up to the MTA and talked to
them, and we had meetings, and even brought people over there to
stage protests- when that happened, no matter they were leftists or
rightists, everybody joined in unison and negotiated the issue. When
CCBA held the meetings, they all came. So, gradually, the atmosphere
became less tensed and the hostility died down. So, right now, they
would contact each other, and like that, and changing the views they
used to hold at each other</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, now that Grand Street subway station has just reopened,
do you expect more improvements on Chinatown traffic and other areas
from the government? Such as [the closure of] Park Row?</p>
<p>
Chung: In fact, we should be… when I was [the president of
CCBA], I said that the government, the police car park should stay
open and allow the public to use it. Once the car park was closed, it
would have an adverse impact on businesses in Chinatown. People from
all the places used to be able to park, now we have not one place to
park. All the parking spaces on Mulberry Street, Bayard Street, Mott
Street are now used by the government employees from the Justice
department and the police precinct. We, the residents, have nowhere
to park at tall. The government should tackle the problem, they
should build a bigger car park, the government officials should be
allocated a specific spot to park, and those spots should be given
back to the residents. That would be the proper measure. For Park Row
[closure], we were working on it and still working on it now. They
have to re-open it. But now, the mayor has been dragging on the issue
and won’t re-open it. Once it’s re-opened, there will be
a lot more businesses. When the
roads
are blocked, the traffic would be chaotic, so people won’t even
want to come into Chinatown for dinners.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, where is the police car park you mentioned?</p>
<p>
Chung: It’s right behind here. That is, is that called Precinct
Plaza? Or the Federal Plaza?</p>
<p>
Q: Is that where the city hall is?</p>
<p>
Chung: It is nearby, next to the Police Plaza.
</p>
<p>
Q: We take a break here.</p>
<p>
Photographer: Okay.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know. I know you were the president
of CCBA, which is the largest organization in Chinatown. Sometimes
you have to welcome officials and politicians from mainland China or
Taiwan. Have you ever feel you were in an… awkward position?</p>
<p>
Chung: For this question…well, for politicians from Taiwan, we
treat them the same, we have connections with them, there’s no
problem at all. For those from mainland China, we used to have no
contact, no communication and no… But in recent years,
mainland China has become more open-minded, so there has been contact
and communication [between us] sometimes. So long as we don’t
touch on politics and only discuss issues related to the status of
overseas Chinese, things like that. They [the mainland officials]
also know that we are not in an easy position to talk about that
[politics]. A few years ago, when I went to mainland China, I have
been to Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing and other places, everything was
good… with those cities.</p>
<p>
Q: Would you consider strengthening the relationship? Especially the
economic ties?
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Chung: This is a mutual, and natural development. China needs gain
the trust and help from overseas Chinese. In the past, they called
overseas Chinese ‘foreigners’. Now they changed the
attitude. They call the overseas Chinese as <i>Gui Qiao</i> [returned
Chinese] when they return to their homeland. Therefore, she will
gradually change. We, hope that she [mainland China] can at least
learn half of what U.S. is doing, and have freedom. Let trade
flourishes, allows free trade, don’t set up all kinds of
restrictions. Therefore… we have been here in the U.S. for
decades, we are used to being free, so if you want to exert
control…therefore, when a lot of people who just arrive in the
U.S., they would say the U.S. is no good, but once they stay longer
and get used to the lifestyle here, they will enjoy the goodness of
the U.S. lifestyle. They will know that the U.S. is full of freedom,
something they could not comprehend before.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, what are the pictures in your hands?</p>
<p>
Chung: This one is taken at the grand opening of the Grand Street
subway station. Because in 2001, 2001, the Manhattan Bridge had to be
repaired and there was roadwork with the D line at the Grand Street
subway station. Therefore, we went up to the MTA and tried to
negotiate with them, we want them to shorten the closing period. At
that time, they said it would be closed for four to six years, we all
felt that that’s far too long. For those people, residents and
nearby businesses, it would cause so much inconvenience. You should
shorten the closure, to two or three years. Therefore, after two and
a half years, about two and a half years, it was completed. And a few
days ago it reopened, that was the 22<sup>nd</sup> of this month it
reopened.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, I see.</p>
<p>
Photographer: Anything else? Go ahead.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, I noticed there are many pictures you took with
celebrities in your house. Can you tell us more about these pictures?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Chung: Sure.</p>
<p>
Q: This is Madame Soong Mayling, right?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes. And this is me.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, this is you!</p>
<p>
Chung: This is Madame Soong Mayling and this is ambassador Zhou
Shukai. This is Soong T.V.[Madame Soong’s brother].</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, Soong T.V.. When did you meet them?</p>
<p>
Chung: In 1972.
</p>
<p>
Q: She come to New York, right?</p>
<p>
Chung: She came to New York to treat her skin problem, for skin
treatment.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, okay. What’s your impression of Madame Soong?</p>
<p>
Chung: She’s very elegant and was a true first lady of a
country. When she helped the president Chiang Kai-shek and attended
all those meetings, such as the Cairo conference, she contributed a
lot to China’s diplomacy. For example, her war efforts against
Japanese invasion, she came to the Congress and gave a speech; came
to the Chatham Square and spoke in front of the overseas Chinese
here…she took the America by storm. A Chinese woman, could be
so selfless and went abroad to resist the Japanese invasion…
Therefore, we all have high respect of her, she is a truly great
person in this world.
</p>
<p>
Q: She passed away this year. Did you
directly….?</p>
<p>
Chung: She passed away this year. I paid my respect to her in the
church and family held services, we attended the services.</p>
<p>
Q: There was a service for her in Chinatown…</p>
<p>
Chung: A memorial service in a Catholic church in Chinatown.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, Mr. Chung, you have been to the home of Madame Soong, in
upstate or uptown, right? Uptown?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, uptown near 80-something street and the Fifth Avenue.</p>
<p>
Q: At the time when you met with her, did she express her
expectations of the overseas Chinese here?</p>
<p>
Chung: That was a private visit, [it was arranged by] consulate
general, Mr. Ye Guobin, who was a relative of her. He said to me,
“Mr. Chung, I’ll bring you to visit Madame Chiang.”
I gladly said yes. So we went together to visit Madame Soong. She was
painting, drawing plum blossoms and orchids. She was not so old back
then, in her 60s or 70s. She said, “I am learning to draw
flowers now, what do you think?” I said her painting was very
nice. Then I asked how she felt about the Chinese immigrants her. She
said, “The Chinese immigrants contributed a lot to the country
[China] during wartime, during the resistance of Japanese invasion,
many donated money and joined the army.” She appreciated what
the Chinese immigrants had done. She said she hoped more Chinese
immigrants would visit Taiwan more often.”</p>
<p>
Q: When did you meet her?</p>
<p>
Chung: In 1972, the next day after I welcomed her at the airport.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Take a break here?</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, let’s talk about your family life?</p>
<p>
Chung: Oh, at the moment, I am living with my wife here, two elderly.
My son is till in China, he has a son, two grandchildren of ours. One
of them, the eldest grandson married last December. So…when he
[my son] wanted to come here, there’s no diplomatic ties
between the U.S. and China, [the U.S.] hadn’t recognize China
at the time, so there’s no way he could come over. By the time
he could come, he is already running his own business and has no time
to come. Now I’m old, what can he do…so still he hasn’t
come here yet.</p>
<p>
Q: Really?</p>
<p>
Chung: He sent money to me. That’s it.</p>
<p>
Q: But deep in your heart, have you felt that the life in the United
States would…?
</p>
<p>
Chung: [………]</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, how many children do you have and how old are they?</p>
<p>
Chung: My son? My children? He is in his 60s now.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, how many [children do you have]?</p>
<p>
Chung: One. One son and two grandchildren. The grandchildren are now
in their twenties. The eldest one married this, this year.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Have they ever come and visit you? Meet you?</p>
<p>
Chung: No, never. In the past, there’s no diplomatic tie
between mainland China and the U.S., so when they have diplomatic
relationship now, my son is running his business and has no time.
Therefore, they still haven’t been here. I went back to China
two years ago, I went to China with my wife and met them.</p>
<p>
Q: So, they all live in Mei county in Guangdong? What’s their
business?</p>
<p>
Chung: My son is in the transportation industry and repairs vehicles.</p>
<p>
Q: You have been in the United States for so many years, so you
haven’t seen your son for a long time. Don’t you miss
him?</p>
<p>
Chung: We talk over the phone.</p>
<p>
Q: Talking over the phone……</p>
<p>
Chung: Write letters, talk on the phone and so on.</p>
<p>
Q: In fact, a lot of people in China want to come to the United
States. Since you have the chance, it’s kind of strange that,
why your son…was it because your son was not willing to come?
Or it doesn’t matter at all?</p>
<p>
Chung: He wants to come but he is getting old. What can he do here?
It will be hard to start all over again.</p>
<p>
Q: Or maybe, if the grandchildren want, will your grandchildren come
over here?</p>
<p>
Chung: They want to come. But, let’s
see, it all depends. First of all, they are still young and besides,
they just graduated from college.</p>
<p>
Q: What is your expectation from your family- your child and your
grandchildren?</p>
<p>
Chung: What kind of expectation… If he, he can take care of
his family, that is good. If he can work in his homeland, it is good
too. Let’s wait and see.</p>
<p>
Q: Even when you talk to them over the phone, you would still miss
them. Do you go to China often and visit them?</p>
<p>
Chung: We’re planning to go this July or August if there is a
chance. But it depends on our feet, whether we can walk or not. We
both fell last year.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, really?</p>
<p>
Chung: I fell down, downstairs at Confucius Plaza in April. I stayed
at the hospital for a month. Now I walked slowly. She fell in
September at Bowery.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, fell down at Bowery Street……</p>
<p>
Q: Ok, stop here.</p>
<p>
Chung: I don’t know what else to say.</p>
<p>
Q: Now that you are retired, what do you usually do everyday?</p>
<p>
Chung: Apart from going to the CCBA, I attend some social gatherings.
Besides, I accompany my wife at home most of the time. To stay with
my wife.</p>
<p>
Mrs. Chung: I’m in my 80s now. Where else can I go?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung. I’d like to know this, a lot of people say that
there’s a long waiting list for people applying for housing
units at Confucius Plaza, it’s very difficult to get in. Is
that true?</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes. It’s because there’re two to three thousand
people on the waiting list for the Confucius Plaza.</p>
<p>
Q: Waiting list?</p>
<p>
Chung: So, it’s very difficult, it’s a long wait.</p>
<p>
Mrs. Chung: Some wait even until the second generation.</p>
<p>
Chung: Some of them if they do wait that long, they may [have it]…..</p>
<p>
Q: If one has to wait, how long usually is the waiting time?</p>
<p>
Chung: Some wait for twenty years.</p>
<p>
Q: Twenty years? Then, you must feel you are the lucky one now?</p>
<p>
Chung: No, actually we had the unit right from the beginning…It’s
because, the Chinese Chamber of Commerce was a member of CCBA. So I
filled out a form and of course [my application] was processed
quickly. It wasn’t that emotional. They would notify you…
At that time, a lot of people submit their applications, but in the
end they didn’t want it. They said the units were expensive. At
that time, the rent for other apartments were about fifty to sixty
dollars, but [here, the rent is] seventy to eighty dollars for a
unit. Now, [the rent for] our unit here is over two hundred dollars…
</p>
<p>
Q: They charged over two hundred dollars at that time?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Chung: Yes, even to this day, it’s still over two hundred
dollars.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, the price hasn’t changed for all these years?</p>
<p>
Chung: It used to be over two hundred fifty dollars, two hundred
fifty dollars.
</p>
<p>
Q: And now the rent is?</p>
<p>
Chung: It is now over two hundred eight dollars. The price has
increased. An increase of five dollars, sometimes.</p>
<p>
Q: Only a small increase after all those years? That…</p>
<p>
Chung: The building has been subsidized by government. There’s
government subsidized, with money from the federal, state and city
governments.</p>
<p>
Q: Mr. Chung, I’d like to know that, East Broadway has
undergone rapid development. How was East Broadway like back then?</p>
<p>
Chung: In the old days, East Broadway was occupied by Italians and
other immigrants. There were not that many stores, and not even
Chinese people. But after the 80s, or the 70s, gradually more people
lived there, by the 80s, East Broadway was saturated. Most of the
buildings are owned by the Chinese. In the old days, [the Chinese]
rented their places there.</p>
<p>
Q: Ok, Mr. Chung, do you have anything to add?</p>
<p>
Chung: That’s about it. I cannot remember a lot of things.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. Don’t worry. Thanks for your time today.</p>
<p>
Chung: Fine. You are very welcome.</p>
<p>
[End of Session]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問︰二月二十六日﹐這是紐約華埠口述歷史計劃。今日我們請到中華公所前主席鍾僑征先生接受訪問的。訪問的人是我吳翊菁。鍾先生你是幾時出世的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我是一九一九[年九月二十九日]出世的。</p>
<p>問︰你是那裡人﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我是廣東梅縣[人]﹐在中國。</p>
<p>問︰你是怎樣來到美國的呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我在一九三七年的時候去到印度﹐我姐夫他有生意在那兒﹐所以我去幫他做生意。以後呢在世界第二次大戰結束以後呢﹐我就從印度到來美國﹐New York。</p>
<p>問︰當初你為什麼會想去印度的呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰那時﹐當時剛剛我讀完中學嘛﹐我老竇要我去印度我姐夫那兒幫手﹐所以我便去印度。適逢又是日本人又是打仗﹐同我們中國打仗。</p>
<p>問︰那你在印度做甚麼﹖</p>
<p>
鍾僑征︰我在印度那時﹐我在我姐夫的皮[革]廠做[事]﹐但係呢﹐以後我又在一個機關度做事。所以做到來美國﹐一九四九年來美國。</p>
<p>問︰那當初在印度的生活是怎麼樣的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰印度的生活呢﹐就…我們中國人來講呢﹐即是﹐有皮廠之外呢﹐有那些工廠呀、做木[材生意]呀﹐有那些做生意出入口呀﹐有那些… 各種鋪頭[有些人]做雜貨店買賣呀﹐都﹐ 那時候都好[每日工資大約] …四、五元的。那時人相當多﹐打仗的時候… 一打仗的時候呢﹐好多船停[泊]到印度呀[不能出海]﹐所以那些海員又多﹐所以我們中國人呢舊時相當多[暫時停留]在印度呀。</p>
<p>問︰在那麼多中國人當中﹐是否譬如廣東人最多呢、或者客家人﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰是廣東人最多。</p>
<p>問︰Ok。 鐘先生我想問下﹐你在大陸的時候呢﹐你屋企… 可不可以講一下你屋企呀﹖你屋企有幾多人呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我屋企﹐我的父母都過[世]後囉﹐而我大佬亦過[世]後﹐我的姊妹兄弟。但係呢﹐現在我有兒子、孫呀都在大陸。</p>
<p>問︰Ok, 當初來美國你抱著一個怎麼樣的期望﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我當時來﹐經過… 我當時來美國是這樣的︰我本來想返鄉下﹐來到這兒﹐美國﹐因為剛剛在大陸又…中共又同國民政府軍隊打仗啦﹐所以發生九一一﹖ 戰事﹐<br>
後來我停在美國沒有返去。[本來想回大陸去﹐因中共已經渡江﹐就在美國停留。]</p>
<p>問︰即是﹐你是不是否坐船途中 …</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我即係﹐我返香港的船呀嘛﹐所以我來到這兒 ﹐我便沒有返去。<br>
[我本來是住美國返香港的﹐由於中共亦渡江南下﹐我便沒有返去。]</p>
<p>問︰即當時入境美國是很容易的事﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係。 唔係﹐唔係話好容易﹐我那兒有買船票來﹐經過的。<br>
[絕非容易﹐主要是想等候時局平靜之後才回去﹐便在紐約停留了下來。]</p>
<p>問︰你幾時來到美國﹖一九﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰一九四九年。</p>
<p>問︰那時你是否在Chinatown到住呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰個陣時初初來到因為是在餐館做事﹐我朋友介紹我去餐館做waiter。以後囉﹐便返來唐人街做事囉。在客家會館做秘書﹐又做主席。</p>
<p>問︰即是你開頭時﹐不是直接在華埠這兒工作的﹖你在‥</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我開頭在[ 長島唐人]餐館[學]呀﹐[後來才正式]同人餐館打工呀。</p>
<p>問︰那餐館在那兒﹖</p>
<p>
鍾僑征︰[後來的]餐館在New Jersey。</p>
<p>問︰那時的New Jersey 華人多不多﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰噢﹐那兒好少﹐唐人少﹐華人少的。不過我們做工‥一個星期返去一次去New York。</p>
<p>問︰你怎樣返去﹖你有甚麼‥</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我們有車呀﹐有餐館有車接我們過去呀‥off的時候﹐便又返出來﹐送我們出來。</p>
<p>問︰ 沒有好像現在那麼方便有長途巴士﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰舊時沒那麼方便啦。</p>
<p>問︰ok。鍾生﹐你來到美國﹐ 對美國的第一印象是怎樣呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰初初來到﹐自己覺得美國是不錯的。因為覺得呢﹐樣樣都好自由︰任得你做甚麼﹐總之你不犯法、唔對人家不好呢﹐你就可以自己做。相當自由﹐所以覺得又唔錯。所以尤其是大陸又打仗﹐都沒法子﹐唔返得去﹐便在這兒居留下來。</p>
<p>問︰那﹐做餐‥你那時是否第一次做餐館?</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰ 第一次做我﹐但是[先做]企檯呀﹐做waiter。以後我自己做[開]餐館。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐你自己開餐館﹖</p>
<p>
鍾僑征︰Yeah﹐ 因為我在客家會館做秘書又做主席。我便又開鋪頭﹐開花鋪呀、咖啡室呀﹐以後便開餐館。</p>
<p>問︰ok。 你那時﹐你幾時才真正在華埠住呢﹐譬如﹐或者在華埠生活呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我一直都在華埠住﹐即是除了話去New Jersey做waiter以後﹐出來又…都在華埠住。</p>
<p>問︰那當時﹐當年紐約華埠是怎樣的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰當年紐約華埠呢﹐人相當少。不是話像現在好似香港有那麼多人來來去去。舊時人﹐有十個八個成日在街道行來行去算好多﹐好高興的樣子。現在來講﹐現在街的兩邊都塞滿了人﹐ 在sidewalk那裡﹐所以比以前差得相當遠啦。<br>
[現在比以前擁擠得多。]</p>
<p>問︰當時的華埠有多大呀﹖ 譬如有那幾條街﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰當時華埠呢﹐即是勿街、擺也街、Mulberry 街呀‥Canal街那兒。過了<br>
Canal街都是意大利那些人多。現在呢我們發‥ 中國人的唐人街呢發展到Mul...Canal街過去那邊﹐上去啦到Houston, Houston街上面去了。現在發展得相當快速啦。最近這十幾二十年來發展得更快﹐就到處呢我們中國人的招牌呀,那些中國人呀來來去去都是那麼多人﹐現在。</p>
<p>問︰鐘先生﹐那當時華埠的移民是甚麼人居多呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰當時‥舊時﹐就是一九六二年呀Kennedy 總統話大陸有逃亡﹐逃亡潮的時候呢﹐他就開放話給二萬五千人來嘛。所以來了的二萬五千萬人﹐我們曉的﹐叫做全美華人福利總會。總會呢就根據他的﹐Kennedy總統法案就申請話﹐以後俾這個額數給我們﹐即是亞洲人呀﹐我們中國人呀等。所以[每年]有二萬五千人[移民﹐一直]到現在都是這樣。</p>
<p>
問︰那譬如以前是不是廣東人最多的﹖</p>
<p>鐘僑征︰以首先就是廣東人最多﹐但是現在﹐現在目前來講呢﹐就各方面的人都不少了啦﹐尤其是現在福建來的鄉里特別多。</p>
<p>問︰其實當年你有沒有預計過華埠他日會發展得那麼快呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰那時﹐未想到的。當時的時候呢﹐這個Division街呢政府都想拆落來﹐有些地產商想拆囉﹐後來沒有拆﹐政府就鼓勵這些人呢‥ 就舊屋翻新呀‥即是貸款給你﹐你就來修理﹐這樣啦。</p>
<p>問︰那時是幾年前的事﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰那時﹐七‥七二年以後﹐好似呢個Johnson 做總統﹐anti-poverty ﹐ anti- poverty 的時候。即係話反貧計劃﹐有一個反貧計劃那時候﹐anti-poverty 的時候。</p>
<p>問︰以前Division 街是否都是唐人啦﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰以前呢就叫做賣帽街﹐即係呢猶太人呢‥呢條街呢兩邊都是賣女人衣裳和女人帽呀﹐所以我們中國人呢街名唔知道甚麼街名﹐就話賣帽街﹐就知道哪兒賣帽﹐知道噢‥賣帽‥賣帽街就這樣叫下去﹐賣帽街。</p>
<p>鍾太︰賣衣裳呀﹐他們。</p>
<p>問︰ Break here?</p>
<p>攝影師︰Go ahead。</p>
<p>
問︰鍾生﹐你在第一家餐館你做了幾耐呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我第一個餐館做了年幾呀﹐然後返來[在客家會館]做秘書。</p>
<p>問︰客家會館﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰客家會館做[完]秘書便無做囉。無做呀… 做完秘書﹐便又返去做下去其他餐館做囉。</p>
<p>問︰那時客家人多不多呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰那時客家人呢﹐都‥ 都有有幾百人啦我們客家﹐有好幾百人啦。</p>
<p>問︰Ok, 鍾先生﹐當年,即是五零年代啦﹐是不是移民的通常講廣東話的比較多呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰講廣東話多﹐因為五十年代呢那時候﹐因為我們中國人當美國兵啦﹐當兵然後他們有身份囉﹐所以便返去娶太太囉﹐所以這樣又來多好多人囉。而各方面人都有﹐不只我們廣東人囉﹐有些上海呀﹐其他地方省會的人都有好多嘛。</p>
<p>問︰他們譬如有不同的方言啦﹐溝通上有沒有問題呢﹐在華埠﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰都…這樣的﹐有時呀初初呢﹐就好多﹐就來到時後呢方言上多數講台山話、講廣州話。所以有些好似講北話的人呢﹐有時候買東西時他用筆寫呢﹐他因為方便慢慢聽你們講下、學下你們的廣東音呀﹐所以北佬他有時﹐講笑話呀︰「你們廣東人呀歧視我們這些北佬﹐即是賣東西呢你不算邊個﹐人家後來來的﹐你拼命給他﹐我們不給。」<br>
因為做生意的人﹐他時間好寶貴﹐他識講的﹐他要乜隨時可以講得﹐隨時便給他囉。你呢不識講的用筆來寫﹐寫又看﹐又花好多時間﹐所以便慢慢俾人識得講的人﹐ 然後再來俾呢個北佬唔識講的。其實就不是這樣的﹐他因為他為著做生意快些俾人家不想阻時間。</p>
<p>問︰北話即是國語﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係﹐有些講國語﹐講北話﹐有些講廣州話又是北話。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐係呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰ 所以呢北話呢﹐講同那些北方的人就講話北話﹐北話啦。現在多數講國語囉。</p>
<p>問︰當年呢﹐是不是﹐ 聽你講流行國語片﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰就‥六十年代就國語呢就開始流行囉。因為呢那些有些國內呀那些出來的人﹐即是多數那些台灣人來容易些﹐那些講國語的逐漸多。同時那些國語片呀﹐個個都鍾意看國語片呀﹐所以呢就廣東戲呢都逐漸減少廣東片。因為大家鍾意看﹐一方面他又可以學國語﹐一方面又可以看電影嘛﹐所以唐人街呢對電影都幫助好多‥就講學話來講。</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生我想問一下﹐當年呢你話Division 街是甚麼時候正式開幕的﹖</p>
<p>
鍾僑征︰Division 街的樓‥客家的樓‥崇正會的呢就一九五三年開幕‥五一年就拿過來裝修嘛﹐ 五三年十月十號開幕那個﹐崇正會的樓‥</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐我想問下你﹐你講過話你做過很多不同的生意啦﹐其實你鍾意哪一個行業多一些﹖或者各行業有甚麼辛酸史呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰那時的行業呢﹐我們中國人呢一個餐館﹐一個衣館。過左就係﹐車衣廠。</p>
<p>車衣廠五十年代不多﹐六十年代的車廠逐漸多囉﹐所以好多我們新移民來到的婦女就可以在車衣廠到做﹐ 對中國人的家庭來講補助好大。因為他要一份工作嘛﹐他太太如果出來幫一份做一份工嘛。</p>
<p>問﹕那你自己是開餐館和開…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰開餐館、花鋪﹐同咖啡店。</p>
<p>問︰咖啡店﹐同時間做﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰即是﹐我一間鋪頭大間﹐我就分成兩面﹐一邊做花鋪、一邊咖啡shop這樣。</p>
<p>問︰那個鋪頭在哪兒﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰就在Divison 街﹐就是呀﹐就是崇正會樓下﹐即是我客家會館﹐我在那兒做秘書﹐所以我﹐因為那時後好少人租鋪﹐那時做生意的人又不是好多的時候。</p>
<p>
問︰他們不租鋪﹐是不是在街邊擺檔多呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰不是﹐無街邊擺。那時候很少街邊擺檔的﹐是現在近這十多年來街邊擺檔的多。</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐我想問一下你﹐除了客家會館之外﹐你有沒有做其他的公職﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰除了客家僑團﹖</p>
<p>問︰你還有沒有做其他的公職﹖其他的‥</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我有呀﹐聯成公所呀﹐美東聯成公所呀。</p>
<p>問﹕你是做﹐做甚麼職位﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰做主席呀。</p>
<p>問︰幾時﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰一九六八年[做聯成公所主席]。我一九六四年中華公所做主席呀﹐一九六八年就聯成公所做呀。以後又一九七二年又做中華公所主席呢﹐就現在零零…二零零年都是呀二千年呀。</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐你可不可以講一下﹐不同年代﹐譬如紐約的華埠有甚麼不同的問題﹖譬如六十年代呀﹐你在中華公所做主席﹐你見到有甚麼問題需要改善的呢﹖</p>
<p>
鍾僑征︰噢﹐六十年代呢﹐那時呢﹐那些中國人呢做生意﹐那些餐館業呀那時好旺﹐衣館又係可以做﹐又有laundromat 呀其他呢﹐所以衣館變成淘汰了。所以這生意少些。所以呢我們話頭先講﹐話車衣業呀﹐ 那兒又逐漸就… 衣廠多囉逐漸逐漸多…衣廠﹐車衣廠囉。</p>
<p>問﹕那時華埠有沒有甚麼問題呀或者需要改善的地方﹖六十年代﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰因為那時呢好難講﹐因為中華公所本身呢肩負任務﹐想做事呀都唔做得來。那時六十年代呢﹐五十幾年呢就我們籌款蓋中華大樓‥</p>
<p>問﹕即是現在‥</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰籌到九十幾萬﹐現在六十二號Mott Street的中華大樓﹐籌到就有九十幾萬﹐差不多壹佰萬呀。所以就蓋好樓呢﹐一九六二年成功呀完成了。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐剛剛開始…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰搬入去﹐就是呢六二到六四年呢﹐那時候搬入去﹐但是未在那兒辦公﹐是借聯成公所辦公。但我做主席呢﹐我就搬入去辦公。就我買傢私呀﹐各種用的東西我買。所以那時就搬入去那裡辦公囉﹐中華公所到現在。</p>
<p>問﹕哦﹐你是第一個中華公所會長在那個大樓辦公的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我第一次做中華公所主席就係。</p>
<p>問﹕那時你剛剛新官上任﹐你有沒有想那時有沒有想﹐在兩年在這兩年內要做的事情去改善華埠的生活呢﹖</p>
<p>
鍾僑征︰那時呢﹐有時候可能…你想﹐頭先講的你想做呢都你要有經濟才做得來…即是其實見事做事﹐如果有甚麼事情我便來做囉﹐這樣囉。</p>
<p>問︰Ok。</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰因為你經濟無呀﹐你又唔想話做點樣來去…太過用來做嘛。</p>
<p>問﹕即是當年籌款都籌了很久﹖籌這筆錢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰ 籌…就 建立的時候。係呀﹐籌了幾年啦。大概是五五年開首﹐一九五五年開首籌備籌款呀。</p>
<p>問﹕主要都是僑胞呀‥</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰所有僑胞都‥軍人來捐款啦。三藩市我們都有人匯捐﹐中部呀 —中部 即是芝加哥呀、羅省呀、波士頓呀﹐各地都有捐款來。所以我們叫做中華大樓。</p>
<p>問﹕Ok, shall we take a break here?</p>
<p>攝影師︰ok go ahead。</p>
<p>問﹕鍾先生﹐我想請你講一下﹐你以前在大陸生活的童年往事﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我七歲的時候呢就跟我的先父呢就去呢個新加坡﹐試了一年﹐以後呢就入馬來西亞聯邦那兒﹐去美羅埠到住﹐因為我老竇在裡面做木材生意呀﹐同那些朋友合作做生意嘛﹐所以做呢﹐我便在那兒 讀書讀到十幾歲返去大陸﹐返去大陸呢﹐以後十七歲呢﹐我們中學畢了業﹐我們又去到印度﹐那時適逢就是日本人打…盧溝橋事變時候﹐我們便出去印度啦。</p>
<p>
問﹕鍾先生﹐譬如你在很多的地方都住過啦﹐你覺得﹐哪一個地方你覺得叫做一個家﹐給你一個家的感覺呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰家呀﹐點樣﹖啊﹐home。老實講﹐在東南亞的地方呢﹐都…一方面是熱﹐第二方面沒有那麼乾淨﹐沒有那麼乾淨﹐好多那些‥垃圾﹐垃圾很多﹐除非呢西人住的地方呢比較乾淨些。不過新加坡又不錯﹐新加坡又一直都很乾淨。不過如果馬來西亞聯邦入面呢﹐因為我們住在山坡那兒﹐同我唐叔那些在山坡割那些樹膠呀﹐我做小孩住在一起﹐我四圍去小朋友﹐除了讀書之外無事做﹐又我十幾歲回大陸﹐讀中學﹐讀完便就來美﹐印度囉。[去印度﹐我姐夫處。]</p>
<p>問﹕你可不可以講一下廣州梅縣當時是怎麼樣的城市呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰廣州[東]梅縣…我們‥梅縣就是一個城市呀。我們梅縣呢舊時入面呢不是很繁榮﹐不是好繁榮﹐不過現在來講不錯﹐舊時的田段呀﹐現在都蓋了戶﹐舊時全是田段。同時呢橋呀又不多﹐那時一九三七年左右呢就開始來建梅江橋﹐梅江橋蓋起來以後﹐逐漸就再蓋其他的橋。</p>
<p>問﹕梅縣是不是一個工業城市﹐還是一個農業城市呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰農業﹐農業﹐農業城市。不過我們現在農業地方不多﹐山多﹐山多地少。</p>
<p>問﹕其實是不是梅縣[田少人多]有好多梅縣的人都…客家人到外邊移民﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係﹐多數﹐多數。我們客家人呢好似從軍呀﹐去做生意呀﹐就這樣﹐出門去做生意呀。婦女就留在屋企呢幫手耕種田地呀。</p>
<p>
問﹕Ok, take a break here?</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐我想問一下﹐六十年代呢非法移民的問題是否很嚴重呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰這樣﹐呢個六十年代﹐非法入來的呢﹐就即是好多﹐又唔可以講嚴重。因為來到美國呢都是因為在大陸上呀﹐那些動亂﹐他沒法子生活﹐所以要逃出來﹐就借呢個船有些到美國或者到其他地方嘛。所以來到美國﹐他留下來生活囉。所以呢那時移民局便成大批來帶走囉﹐所以舊時適逢我做中華公所主席﹐我便同福利總會的那些人呀﹐理事長呀那些負責人呀律師﹐就去…</p>
<p>[電話鈴聲]</p>
<p>問﹕休息一下先。</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰頭先講到哪兒﹖</p>
<p>問﹕六十年代非法移民的問題‥ </p>
<p>鍾僑征︰呀係﹐那些非法移民呢﹐就這樣﹐我們中國人開餐館那麼多啦﹐他那些上岸上來的多數有些人做廚的﹐所以便遇著那些人帶他走呢﹐即我們餐館便無人做廚囉﹐無人囉。你請其他人﹐又語言上又不對﹐講不來呀。所以我們到Washington DC移民總局向他請求囉﹐同埋要去國會哪兒﹐見國會議議長囉﹐就是將這個非法移民的人呢﹐好不好呢暫時就保…准他在這兒暫時在居留先﹐因為他在大陸上動亂呀﹐<br>
他沒法子在哪兒生活﹐所以他出來的。所以我…你美國講人道主義、民主自由的﹐我話呢︰「希望你能夠留下來。」他有一個議長講笑﹐他說︰「Mr. Chung﹐唔該你marry我的女仔﹐美國的女仔便好囉﹐ 結婚便保留他身份囉。」講笑呀。</p>
<p>問﹕其實當初游說這些政府官員容不容易呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我們﹐從前囉﹐游說他囉﹐即是他又好體恤這些人呀。即是話﹐他真係﹐連Kennedy他都放那麼多人入來囉﹐所以他便好同情﹐所以他說這樣啦︰「給你試五年的時間﹐他在這裡住下來啦﹐等他四年﹐做到有四年工﹐有賺有錢啦。他返去香港或者邊度去謀生啦。」這樣嘛。他話︰「再來的﹐又留落四年﹐我又等到四年﹐又來又送他走。」就這樣嘛。</p>
<p>問﹕當時他們這種是否叫工作證﹐我們現在叫工作證﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰無工作證的。他即是﹐移民局會給一張單﹐即是話他… 他…他居留過期的﹐他張紙寫明他parole出來呀﹐或者點﹐有個parole嘛。</p>
<p>問﹕其實﹐你知不知﹐大概有幾多人﹐因為呢個﹐呢個新的政策受惠的啦﹐有沒有統計過﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我都無‥無﹐點樣統計﹖舊時就話有四、五百人一齊押解﹐我們根據平時跟那麼多的人去同移民局講嘛﹐同國會那些人講嘛。</p>
<p>
問﹕即是第一次是四百多五百人﹖之後呢﹐之後有多少﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰以後唔知﹐我們有時上去同他講﹐希望他不押解﹐他便停下來﹐他暫時性不押解囉。</p>
<p>問﹕鍾先生﹐我想問 一下你第一次﹐即是六零年代做中華公所主席呢﹐除了這個政策令到好多僑胞受惠啦﹐你可不可以講一下其他中華公所得工作呀﹖譬如你話過有個學校‥</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰其他工作﹐六零年代呢﹐舊時候呢﹐我們有小學呀、中學呀﹐那些嘛﹖</p>
<p>問﹕係…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰教中文的。即是學中文的。五分局的局長他都來﹐警察都來學中文呀。</p>
<p>問﹕哦﹐是呀﹐在哪兒上堂呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰就在﹐中華大樓樓上﹐學校來呀。</p>
<p>問﹕那時有多少學生到﹖那時有多少學生…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰學生﹐大約有千多﹐二千人。</p>
<p>問﹕那麼多…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰現在目前三千幾人。</p>
<p>
問﹕他們中小學這樣﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰Yeah。</p>
<p>問﹕除此之外呢六十年代的東西你有沒有要補充呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰六十年代甚麼﹖</p>
<p>問﹕你有沒有想補充﹐譬如其他中華公所的工作﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰點樣﹐甚麼意思呢﹖</p>
<p>問﹕不如講一下七十年代啦﹐之後你第二次做中華公所主席啦﹐起孔子大廈是不是你最大的project呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰七十年代呢﹐就孔子大廈。因為有一個姓羅﹐羅金水[又稱羅德明]先生嘛。他看到報紙話市府有一個空地俾…提供中國人來做住宅呀。所以他看到他便去申請。去申請﹐他組織一個華園公司嘛﹐但係呢他去申請呢﹐但是他話呢個公司你有無信用﹐你租出去有幾耐﹖他話剛剛成立。他話﹐這樣你又剛剛成立﹐你點樣使人信用呀﹖點樣情形呢﹐所以他…又唔好﹐ 最好你返來呢你同你的社區看看哪一個公所﹐大的團體等它來出面來負責呀﹐這樣囉。後來他找到我﹐我便召集我們中華公所的常務委員幾個人﹐就同市府接洽﹐一講他便答應啦。他說得﹐你中華公所當然給你啦﹐因為當時市長是林西嘛Lindsay﹐他做市長嘛﹐所以我我便同他又又得講下個局長聽﹐有個樓宇局局長的人嘛﹐所以我就講市長都…後來他說好﹐你們中華公所拿去啦﹐中華公所我們一定可以做的。所以我們中華公所開會囉﹐開會﹐就交給中華總商會。我們中華公所呢屬下有六十個團體﹐<br>
所以中華總商會是屬於中華公所一個大團體之一嘛﹐所以就交給它做。</p>
<p>問﹕其實籌‥當初為什麼話起一個孔子大廈專門for老人居住﹖點解不話起其他…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰不是講專門老人﹐中等入息﹐middle income。中等入息﹐就唔係話俾老人。本來我們想話老人﹐找不到地方。找不到地方﹐本來Henry街有間一百一十一號﹐Henry 街買 左啦﹐終於買左啦。賣左﹐因為又唔係大間﹐又要夠…全舊裝修﹐又賣左﹐無用囉。</p>
<p>問﹕孔子大廈是幾時起的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰孔子大廈一九‥二七﹐二七[一九七三年]﹐七三、七四年開首的﹐七三、七四開首的﹐到七五年就完成了﹐七五年十二月我們就搬入來住啦。</p>
<p>問﹕那時候譬如籌集資金呀﹐順不順利呢﹖譬如起這個‥</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰資金是聯邦政府、省政府、市政府借來的﹐我們現在要…要供呀﹐供五十年呀。</p>
<p>問﹕啊﹐供五十年呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰有些是銀行借﹐幾間中國銀行呀﹐舊時金融銀行呀﹐東方銀行﹐主要銀行借呀貸款。</p>
<p>問﹕譬如一個普通得單位啦﹐舉例大概需要幾多錢呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰哦…[兩百多元一個單位的租金]</p>
<p>
問﹕譬如一個普通單位大約要供大約多少錢啦﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰哦…[由大樓管理處去供﹐住戶便交租金。]</p>
<p>問﹕譬如如果要供一個單位啦﹐即是租一個單位大概需要多少錢呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰要多少錢﹖[以前中等入息的住戶﹐要交兩百八十三元租金。]</p>
<p>問﹕譬如你這裡租貴不貴﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰哦﹐呢度﹖噢﹐即是一個柏文﹐一個柏文呀嘛﹖一個柏文至少都二百幾銀。</p>
<p>問﹕一個月﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰一個月﹐就是因為呢﹐它政府有一部份補助。</p>
<p>問﹕哦﹐一半補助。那現在這個大樓大概有幾多戶呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰七百幾戶呀。頭先講的是貸款的﹐都…唔個個話貸款﹐不是後來銀行同它…金融銀行未同它…是聯邦政府貸出來的錢﹐不是它的。而那個培護中心﹐那時叫培護中心﹐就係金融銀行同中美銀行[貸款的]。</p>
<p>問﹕那即是話當年的華埠是不是住屋問題是幾嚴重的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰住屋呀﹐住屋是相…雖然無到現在 那麼嚴重呀﹐現在都很少屋呀﹐舊時雖然話嚴重都搵得到去住﹐現在你想搵都搵唔到呀。就係…</p>
<p>問︰Take a break here?</p>
<p>
問﹕鍾先生我想請你講一下九一一的事﹐你那時候是親眼看到九一一發生的﹐是不是﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係﹐那時候﹐九一一那時候呢﹐大概朝頭早八點四十幾分鐘那時候﹐就第一座大樓就俾恐怖分子劫機呢撞毀了。即是那時候我都在樓下看到﹐望到呢個煙﹐濃煙走出來﹐就沒想到是恐怖份子劫機﹐因為以為飛機撞到或者點樣嘛。後來一陣間跌第二架飛機又撞過來。</p>
<p>[客家話 - 鍾先生請鍾太不要插話。]</p>
<p>問﹕你那個時候是在中華公所或者在自己家裡這裡看到的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我﹐樓下﹐我因為我要去其他地方﹐我剛剛一出門在樓下望到。</p>
<p>問﹕孔子大廈﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係。望到﹐後來我便拿起手機打電話﹐打不通。其他的打不通。那些人﹐有些朋友來到﹐我們本來同我們一齊去一個地方嘛﹐所以他話︰「現在他手機都打不通﹐不知是甚麼事幹。」後來以後呢人逐漸由世貿中心入面人就慢慢地行上來囉﹐行上來唐人街﹐一路走﹐就行上行上﹐好似一大陣人﹐一陣一陣走上來[湧到唐人街這邊來]﹐一直上到十幾街去個度。</p>
<br>
<p>問︰你當時想第一刻你想到要做的事是甚麼﹖九一一發生…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰九一一當時呢﹐我返到辦公室唸下呢﹐那時係唔係幾了解情況﹐當時呢飛機‥同時有些濃煙﹐慢慢的煙火煙吹到中國城來。那時候唸下這個事情損失點樣都不是很清楚﹐ 所以後來第二日這個事情好像是比較嚴重﹐因為呢﹐<br>
個個警察呀、國防軍呀在街口呢攔住﹐要那些騎木馬凳呀攔住﹐不讓人家來往哪兒。除非你出身份證﹐你在那裡住的居民囉﹐你就可以拿出身份證給他看﹐他給你過。如果你又無帶身份證就唔得﹐所以呢好多居民就投訴︰我都無身份證現在你唔俾我入。我就打電話同五分局的局長講﹐他好合作﹐他就說︰「這樣哪﹐總之﹐你總之講給他們聽來這裡﹐住在哪兒的﹐無帶身份證的呢﹐我證明就俾你一張紙。」所以他便方便好多。同時呢有些送貨的﹐你有張紙簽名﹐即是五分局證明話他在附近做生意的﹐他貨車可以方便通過﹐就俾他行這樣啦。所以他就好﹐即是情況好亂好緊張的。那些街道呢都好似死城市﹐無人行﹐街道無人行﹐所以呢其他國家有些人都打電話來問︰「你點樣情況呀﹖」有時我會同他講因為我們中華公所的電話呢﹐幸好全部通﹐無無話唔通的。所以‥</p>
<p>問﹕只是中華公所通﹐其他全部不通﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰所以我便召集我們中華公所的常務議員呀﹐便來開會囉﹐開臨時緊急會議﹐就中華公所呢出五萬銀﹐以後呢請那些各團體、商戶、僑胞﹐大家來捐款﹐來即是幫助這些災民﹐即是話九一一時間影響他的生意各方面有問題的﹐就要幫助他嘛。所以我們呢中共捐了有三十幾萬﹐電臺上的那些呼籲呢大概有二百幾萬 —當時幾大幾多確數我唔記得。</p>
<p>問﹕那已是好多了。</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰電臺又捐了很多﹐所以呢﹐我們捐到的錢就俾州長呀﹐給九一一基金會我們俾二十五萬。我們有俾警察呀﹐救護那些人員呀﹐好多各種醫療方面呀﹐紅十字會我們有捐錢它嘛。種種的呢三十幾萬我們全部發出去給人家。</p>
<p>
問﹕那﹐那我想問中華公所那時所有振災工作全部都在大樓裡面進行的吧﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係﹐這是捐款的。但是呢我們同聯邦政府個個…叫做趙小蘭勞工部長呀她那兒有派人來﹐州政府有派人來、市府又有派人來、法律咨詢又有人來、Verizon電話公司呀、有呢個電話公司呀紅十字會呀、有一個叫做FEMA那些亦來﹐所以在中華公所大樓入面呢我們俾出地方讓他們辦公。所以一日每天都有成幾千人走入來來去去呀﹐這樣嘛。</p>
<p>問﹕譬如﹐譬如重建華埠啦﹐政府有沒有給過甚麼資金呀﹐俾過錢譬如幫助華埠呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰重振華埠呢﹐其實我們有兩個給錢囉﹐重振華埠我們即是舊時候話我們中國人的生意一落千丈﹐影響那麼大。便我們在Daily News賣‥逢禮拜五呀賣一日廣告﹐都花四萬幾銀囉﹐只是賣廣告呀。另外呢﹐做一個sign ﹐一個sign﹐那兒又…又‥就好在那個不用錢﹐他一個劃積的送給我們中華公所﹐他劃積的送給我們。但我們繁榮華埠呢﹐舞獅呀﹐每個週末舞獅呀﹐請人來跳舞呀﹐那些我們要花錢。</p>
<p>問﹕那主要推廣華埠旅遊業﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰推廣華埠旅遊業嘛。所以呢趙小蘭勞工部長呢﹐她便落來兩次﹐最後一次她落來﹐她便給一百萬給叫做job training的就給人力中心呀、亞平會呀﹐華策會那些機構即是那些﹐即是來訓練的。給了一百萬是這樣啦。</p>
<p>問﹕即是趙小蘭部長…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係﹐趙小蘭部長。</p>
<p>
問﹕鍾先生﹐那九一一對華埠的影響有多大呢﹖你可不可以講一下﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰哦﹐市面幾日停下來沒有生意﹐一直都無生意﹐影響相當大呀﹐損失好多﹐這個都好‥最緊要我們沒有那些數呢﹐總之﹐即是大家都講﹐有幾間鋪頭都關了﹐因為九一一的時候。</p>
<p>問︰你覺得現在譬如過了九一一兩年多啦﹐你覺得重建華埠的工作進行成怎樣﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰重建華埠工作呢﹐現在新的主席姓伍的﹐他都一樣繼續照樣來做。不過我們做開頭了﹐不過現在這樣不錯呀﹐就現在繁榮華埠的都在做。呢個呢即是要一步一步來逐漸來做﹐就能夠繁榮番來的。一方面﹐旅遊方面呢要怎樣加強來招來旅遊來觀光。尤其是車衣業方面呢﹐政府呢最好能夠來大力的支持它﹐等它恢復番呢﹐車衣業。現在車衣服業好少呀﹐我知現在好多人無工作做要向政府領失業金。</p>
<p>問︰其實你覺得現在chinatown有沒有急需要改善的地方呢﹖整體上來講﹐有沒有需要改善的地方﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰要改進﹐改進呢﹐我們最好呢unit 能夠加高。現在呢﹐呢度呢最高高到七層﹐七層樓。最好能夠加高到二十幾層。街道呢擴寬些﹐我們舊時候一個﹐一個發展繁榮華埠計劃﹐我們找一個[做]budget的Cury﹐來同我們budget來做…有計劃書的。同時發展觀光局﹐加強呢來協助發展車衣業囉。同埋呢增加房屋﹐房屋呀…同時街道能夠整修的整修﹐如果可以擴寬的呢最好能夠擴寬。這些即是我們一路來的目標﹐都是呢個。</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生我想問一下﹐九一一發生之後﹐這個事情對你對美國的看法有否不同呀﹖</p>
<p>
鍾僑征︰噢﹐呢個呢九一一呢﹐我們中國人來講呢﹐就這一次呢就非常之團結。所以話呢個影響好大﹐我們中國人方面比較團結。美國呢她損失那麼大﹐但是呢她又是想辦法來幫助我們的…那些損失那些﹐好似現在有LMD[C]…</p>
<p>問︰LMDC﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰LMDC呀﹐它便一樣來補助。就那些人呀﹐ 補助屋租呀﹐那些各種…</p>
<p>問︰所以你…</p>
<p>[錄音帶009-1B面]</p>
<p>鍾橋征︰係﹐係﹐係。世界上話最好係美國呀﹐住係邊度有那麼好。尤其老弱﹐現在尤其是對老人福利特別多。</p>
<p>問︰即是你都好滿意在這裡生活﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰呀。</p>
<p>問︰Take a break here?</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐其實我知道在華埠啦有很多左派和右派的僑團﹐可能它們水火不融的。你在華埠那麼久﹐你覺得譬如有甚麼辦法可以改善這個問題呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰um…呢個華埠呢﹐那些中國人…都是由大陸出來的都是到海外謀生呀﹐是不是﹖本來呢大家都有和平共處﹐大家來合作。不過當時呀大陸上的領導人對海外的僑胞呢有唔同的看法﹐所以同埋對家人的迫害方面呀﹐<br>
就好多影響好大﹐所以變成呢即是這些人同共產的人心理上有一種恐怖一樣。但係呢﹐現在一代一代兩代人逐呀漸﹐他…不同的改變﹐逐漸他知道以往那些的恥事是不對的﹐所以他又有改變了。所以在八十年代到九十年代呢稍微比較鬆懈些﹐不會大家好似大家水火不融呀﹐可以即是容忍一下有時大家至多便不講話﹐或者唔會你抵制我﹐我抵制你﹐比較少些。所以我﹐就我做第三屆主席的時候呢﹐我覺得呢我們大家都是同胞﹐大家海外都是兄弟﹐就應該呢和平共處。雖然我好多時﹐好似Grand街後來關閉的時候﹐我們便向MTA交通局哪兒呢﹐同他講﹐同他開會呀﹐甚至帶人去示威﹐都各方面左右派不分甚麼 左右﹐大家都一致來同他交涉﹐中華公所的會[議]他們都有來參加﹐所以逐漸呢比較淡了不會敵對了﹐淡了。所以現在來講呢﹐有時大家都有來往呀﹐都是這樣﹐改變以往不同的看法囉。</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐譬如剛剛Grand街地鐵站重開啦﹐其實你有沒有希望政府或者其他華埠交通問題上可以改善呢﹖譬如Park Row 呀那些…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰本來大家便要…我做的時候應該都話啦政府…警察局的停車場應該要俾番保留俾大家用。因為你一關閉停車場對華埠生意影響好大﹐因為各地來到在這裡可以停車嘛﹐現在你哪兒沒有地方停車﹐街上Mulberry 街、Bayard 街、 Mott 街那些—給法院呀、警察局給他們全部泊了。我們居民想停車哪兒買東西都無法子停車。所以就要政府本來應該改善﹐你應該呢做多個大停車場﹐你政府那些官員那些﹐應該給他一個地區泊車﹐這些街坊的應該你俾番街坊用﹐這才對。Park Row 呢我們在交涉﹐現在都一樣在交涉﹐<br>
要他開放呀。但現在呢市長總是話要未開放。因為一開放呢﹐就生意會多好多的。因為你那些路﹐道路不通就好唔方便﹐所以人家食餐的都不敢來。</p>
<p>問︰我想問一下﹐你說的那個警察的停車場在哪兒﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰警察停車場在Federal Plaza 那兒。</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰就是後面就是呀。就是個個﹐個個是不是叫做 Precint Plaza ﹖不是叫Federal Plaza。</p>
<p>問︰即是政府總局哪兒﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰即是警察局旁邊﹐旁邊。</p>
<p>問︰we take a break here﹖</p>
<p>攝影師︰ok。</p>
<p>問︰鍾生﹐我想問下﹐譬如我知道你做過中華公所主席﹐這是華埠最大的組織啦。有時你要接待來自大陸或者台灣的政客﹐你會不會處於一個好好…尷尬的地位呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰關於呢個呢…對台灣的政客來講呢﹐就我們一樣呀﹐都是我們同他有關係﹐有接觸的﹐那些無問題。大陸那些﹐以往呢就大家呢不敢接觸、無接觸﹐亦無…不過近這幾年來呢就大陸比較開放些﹐所以便有時便有些接觸﹐有些接觸。即是大家不講政治﹐講僑胞華僑的地位﹐就是這樣。他亦知道我們不方便講那些的。所以前年呢我返大陸去來﹐我去過北京、上海、南京各地都去來﹐都各方面都不錯﹐那些城市。</p>
<p>
問︰那麼他們會否考慮以後加強與這裡的合作﹖譬如經濟上﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰這是﹐這是好自然的事情﹐這是好自然的事情。因為她覺得現在她要爭取華僑﹐舊時呢她認華僑呢就是外國人﹐現在呢她不是﹐改變作風。她現在呢華僑都是叫「歸僑」﹐現在大陸名叫「歸僑」呀﹐返到大陸呀。所以這個呢﹐她會逐漸改變。我們呢﹐無乜﹐希望她呢能夠學到美國一半﹐能夠有自由。有各種做生意都有自由貿易﹐不會話有樣樣管來控制﹐這樣嘛。所以這個…因為我們幾十年在美國﹐自由慣了﹐你話要來控制…又所以話﹐好多人初初來到美國呢﹐就說美國不好﹐等到他住落了以後﹐他覺得美國好﹐他知道美國自由各方面﹐以前他是不了解的。</p>
<p>問︰鍾生﹐我想問你手上的照片是甚麼﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰呢個呢﹐就是Grand Street 那個subway station grand﹐lead open 的相片﹐就是因為呢二零零一年的時候﹐二零零一年呀﹐就因為Manhattan 橋要修再修理﹐同埋Grand Street subway station 都要填D 線﹐所以呢就我們就向交通局去同它講數﹐請它修理時間縮短。那時候它講呢要四年到六年﹐我們都覺得你那麼長時間﹐那些﹐那些人﹐住客﹐附近的主客呢﹐好多來來去去的人呢好不方便呀﹐你應該縮短時間﹐兩年呀或者三年這樣。所以現在呢它終於兩年半﹐大概兩年半時間已經做好了。所以現在早幾日開幕﹐這個月二十二日就在這兒開幕。</p>
<p>問︰ok, 好。</p>
<p>攝影師︰Anything else? Go ahead。</p>
<p>
問︰鍾先生﹐我見你屋企好多同歷史名人影的相啦﹐你可不可以講一下這一幅呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰好。 </p>
<p>問︰這個是宋美齡﹐是不是﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係。這個是我。</p>
<br>
<p>問︰哦﹐這個是你﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰這個是宋美齡﹐這個是周書楷大使。這個宋子文。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐宋子文。你是幾時見到她的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰一九七二年。</p>
<p>問︰她來New York 是不是﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰她來 New York﹐醫皮膚病﹐看皮膚的。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐ok。其實你對宋美齡女士印象如何﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰這個人呢﹐她相當文雅﹐就可以講得呢是真是代表一國的夫人﹐所以呢她幫助蔣總統呀去出席那些開羅會議呀﹐對外交方面呀她做了很大的努力。好似抗戰的時候呢﹐她來美國向國會演講﹐來到Chatham Square那兒又同僑胞講話﹐所以她風靡全美國呀﹐即是對這個中國一個女人呀能夠那麼偉大出來為自己國家來出力來抵抗日本軍閥呀。<br>
所以大家都非常之專敬她﹐所以她呢真正是一個世界的偉人。</p>
<p>問︰其實今年她過身啦﹐你有沒有直接…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰她﹐今年呀過左身…我們都有去祭來﹐去教堂哪兒﹐家祭呀﹐我們都去來。</p>
<p>問︰她﹐在華埠都有辦一個…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰華埠一個天主教堂哪兒有一個追悼﹐追思會。</p>
<p>問︰ok。</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐你去過呀宋美齡女士的屋企呢在上州﹐在uptown是不是﹖<br>
Uptown﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰Uptown﹐八十幾街哪兒﹐第五大道。</p>
<p>問︰譬如你和她會面時﹐她有沒有透露過對這裡的僑胞有甚麼期望﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰那時候呢﹐我去到呢當私人的拜會﹐因為那時是有一個葉國斌總領事呀﹐他同她有親戚的。他就話鍾主席︰「我同你一齊去見下夫人啦。」所以我說︰「好呀。」我便同他一同去見夫人。見到夫人呢﹐她…畫那些畫來﹐有些梅花呀、有些畫那些蘭花呀…她畫的花﹐那時她年紀沒有那麼大﹐六七十歲的時候。她話︰「我現在畫花呀﹐點樣﹖」我說畫得好靚好好呀﹐我便講﹐問下那些華僑大家點樣。她講︰「華僑呢對國家貢獻很大﹐抗戰的時候呢出錢出力﹐有些又去投軍。」她對華僑很欣賞﹐所以她有時呢﹐她都話希望那些華僑多返去台灣行下。</p>
<p>
問︰你見她的時候是幾時的事﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰一九七二年﹐就她來接她﹐去飛機場接她返來第二日啦。</p>
<p>問︰ Take a break here?</p>
<p>鍾先生﹐我想問下﹐你可不可以講一下你的家庭生活呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰哦﹐我呢現在目前呢就我同我女人兩個人在這裡﹐老人家。我的仔呢在大陸﹐有一個仔﹐兩個孫。一個…大孫呢去年十二月結婚。所以呢…想做他來的時候呢﹐美國同大陸呢是無交往﹐未有承認大陸呀﹐所以便做不到他來。等到做得他來﹐他自己做生意有事情做他又唔來得﹐現在囉我又年紀老﹐他又點樣呢…所以他都無來。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐係呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰ 只有寄錢返來﹐是這樣。</p>
<p>問︰但是你心裡面﹐你會不會覺得其實美國的生活可能會對…</p>
<p>[。。。。。。。。。]</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生呀﹐你有幾多個小朋友﹐他們多大呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我仔呀﹖仔女呀﹐六十幾歲囉。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐有幾多個﹖</p>
<p>
鍾僑征︰一個。一個仔﹐兩個孫。孫都成二十幾歲囉﹐一個大的今﹐今年結婚呀。</p>
<p>問︰其實他們有無來探過你﹖看過你﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰無﹐無來過。因為以前呢大陸同美國無交往嘛﹐所以[現]在[中國與美國]有交往他又做生意無時間﹐所以現在都未曾來過。我前年呢返過大陸﹐我同太太返去大陸呀﹐見過他們。</p>
<p>問︰即是他們都在廣東梅縣﹖他做甚麼生意﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰他做運輸﹐同埋修理廠﹐修理車。</p>
<p>問︰其實你在美國那麼多年呢﹐便成日見不到個仔囉﹐其實你掛不掛住他﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰通電話啦。</p>
<p>問︰通電話…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰寫信呀﹐通電話呀﹐這樣囉。</p>
<p>問︰其實﹐因為好多大陸人常常好想移民到美國啦﹐其實你有這個機會﹐其實<br>
即是好奇怪﹐點解你個仔…係你的仔不願意呀﹖還是你覺得都無所謂呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰他想來呀﹐但是他年紀大﹐你來到做甚麼好﹖又來重頭做過﹐又難呀。</p>
<p>
問︰那或者他的孫有無想話﹐你的孫會不會想來呢﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰他會想來。但是問題…問題看看怎樣啦。他一個呢﹐細﹐第二個呢他剛剛大學畢業呀。</p>
<p>問︰其實你對你的家人﹐你的仔女或者孫有甚麼期望﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰有甚麼期望呀。他…這個嘛﹐他能夠係…顧住自己家庭便得囉。等他在屋…鄉下又可以做事﹐可以做呀嘛。看他點樣先啦。</p>
<p>問︰其實你﹐就算通電話啦你都會不捨得﹐你會不會常常返去大陸呢﹐去看看他們﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰本來話今年七八月如果有機會返去下。看下先﹐看看我們兩個人腳行得﹐我們兩個人行得不行得先。我們兩個人的腳舊年跌倒。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐係呀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰在孔子大廈樓下跌倒﹐就四月跌倒﹐我在醫院住了一個月。現在我又行又慢﹐她就九月在街﹐即是包里街那兒跌倒。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐包里街跌倒…</p>
<p>問︰ok﹐stop here。</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰想不到講甚麼。</p>
<p>問︰其實你現在退休啦﹐你現在平時做甚麼﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰我現在﹐除了去中華公所﹐即是社會上‥來來去去以外呢﹐便在屋企休息陪太太﹐陪太太囉。</p>
<p>
鍾太︰八十多歲囉﹐重想去哪兒﹖</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐我想問一下﹐譬如這裡孔子大廈啦﹐好多人都話要排期呢好難﹐要入來住等好耐﹐是不是﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係﹐因為孔子大廈有成二、三千人在 waiting list。</p>
<p>問︰Waiting list?</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰所以好難等﹐好難等到有的。</p>
<p>鍾太﹕等﹐等到第二代。</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰可能等都有的…</p>
<p>問︰譬如通常如果真是要等﹐要等幾耐﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰有些等成二十年囉。</p>
<p>問︰二十年﹖那﹐即是你覺得現在好幸運囉﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰不是﹐一開頭便有…因為呢個呢﹐因為中華總商會呢是我中華公所的會員嘛﹐所以我就填表﹐申請當然…要快。無乜講感情囉﹐他通知你…那時大家好多都填了都不要的﹐他話貴﹐那時出面呀五、六十元﹐七、八十元一個柏文嘛﹐我們這裡二百多元銀…</p>
<p>
問︰那時已經要二百幾銀﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰係﹐到現在都是二百幾銀。</p>
<p>問︰哦﹐這個價錢一直都無變﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰二百五十幾以前﹐二百五十幾。</p>
<p>問︰現在這個價錢…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰現在二百八十幾﹐升了價。即是加五元﹐有時候。</p>
<p>問︰噢﹐幾十年加少少﹐這樣…</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰這是政府補助的嘛﹐政府補助。所以我們話﹐省、聯邦政府、省政府<br>
、市政府俾錢的嘛。</p>
<p>問︰鍾先生﹐我想問下﹐譬如東百老匯現在發展得好快啦﹐其實當年的東百老匯是怎麼樣的﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰當年東百老匯都是那些意大利人呀、有些其他人在東百老匯。即是有鋪頭呢都不是好多間﹐那時中國人呀。而就八十年代以後囉﹐七十年代就開始多些囉﹐八十年代就好多已經東百老匯好多滿呀。那些差不多﹐那些樓呀﹐自己買下來啦﹐舊時呀﹐租人家的。</p>
<p>問︰Ok, 鍾先生有沒有東西想補充﹖</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰差不多啦﹐我都已經記不起來了。</p>
<p>問︰Ok, 好﹐唔緊要﹐唔該晒你先今日。</p>
<p>鍾僑征︰好﹐不用客氣。</p>
<p>[完]</p>
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Title
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Henry Chung
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approved
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unknown
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Meiling Tse
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Val Wang
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-01-30
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
high school teacher
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
A little bit about where you were born and the story that your dad
told you.</p>
<p>Tse:
Right, well, I grew up –</p>
<p>[Interruption]</p>
<p>Q:
I’m Val Wang.</p>
<p>Tse:
You need to put your face in the camera.</p>
<p>Q:
And I guess if you could introduce yourself a little bit, your name
and where you were born and your age. Your age? And say where we are
right now.</p>
<p>Tse:
I don’t have to say my age, do I? Okay, I’ll say it, it
doesn’t matter. Just don’t show my students. They think
I’m 25. Okay, should we start? Or should we just answer?</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah, just name, age, where we are.</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, my name is MeiLing Tse, it’s my last name. I was born in
Hong Kong and I immigrated to the United States with my entire family
when I was 4 years old. I have two older sisters and a younger
brother. When he came, he was one years old and I’m 35 years
old now and I’m teaching at Lower East Side Preparatory High
School and I was born in Hong Kong, like I said, and the way that my
family immigrated to the United States was through my father’s
– some connection between my father and his job. And so I tell
my students this really interesting and fabulous story of this
generous guy who was my father’s boss who just kind of
sponsored my entire family to come to the United States so that my
father could work for him in the restaurant,
so the boss,
the guy opened the restaurant in Brooklyn and my father started to
work for him. He was a loyal worker for many years until he retired
and my family grew up in Brooklyn near my boss in the Sheepshead Bay
area of Brooklyn. And went to high school – to elementary
school, started kindergarten, actually, in the United States without
knowing a single word of English because when I immigrated here, I
didn’t know a word of English. My parents didn’t speak
English, didn’t have any friends who spoke English. So, even
though when you’re playing with your friends, you learn
English, but because I didn’t have any friends who spoke
English, I went to school without any English language skills. The
school I went to, I remember, didn’t have any bilingual –
no Chinese in the school, no bilingual classes as we have today and I
remember the first day of school I was so scared because I didn’t
understand what anyone was saying and I remember the end of the day I
was hiding in the closet and the teacher had to fget me out to go
home. And so those were my earliest memories and I tell my students
the story just to put them at ease that every person that comes here
really has a very difficult beginning. It’s not easy to
assimilate and even for me, at age five, four or five years old, it
was so hard and, so jumping forward, I learned English, went to high
school and college ---</p>
<p>Q:
How long did it take you to learn English? Or, how long was it until
you felt comfortable here?</p>
<p>Tse:
I remember reading, well the early years after that first memory was
kind of blurred, but I remember reading books on my own in third
grade, in third grade, just going to the library and taking out tons
of books to read in the summer. And so I would say that I could
probably read at a third grade level by the time I was eight years
old, so I would say that between those first three years, it was very
critical. I did learn somehow. How I learned, I don’t remember.</p>
<p>Q:
At home, what were you speaking at home?</p>
<p>Tse:
At home, my parents spoke Cantonese and that was the only language
we used.</p>
<p>Q:
How was their English progressing during that time?</p>
<p>
Tse: Well, my parents were blue-collar workers. My father worked
in a restaurant. He was a waiter and my mother was a seamstress, so
they really had no use for English, so basically, they took classes
and they tried to learn, but even up to today, they really have no
use. They’re in their own community, there’s no really
reason for them to use English, so they haven’t --- I don’t
think they can really converse in a conversation with an American. So
we’ve basically kept – they’ve been kind of shelled
in their own little world all these years, actually.</p>
<p>Q:
You mentioned that the area you grew up in didn’t have many
other Chinese kids. So what was that experience like growing up,
surrounded by people who weren’t Chinese?
</p>
<p>Tse:
Like I said, I have two older sisters and a younger brother, so
basically, my family, we basically kept to ourselves and played with
each other. We had friends, but basically, they were like school
friends, like after school, we really didn’t hang out with
them. We came home like obedient kids. We were latchkey kids, so we
let ourselves in the house. We played in the house, went to the
library. My sisters were my friends, so we played together,
basically.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you have any contact with the Chinese community in Chinatown, in
Brooklyn, or in Queens? When did you ever come in contact with them?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, there was a big contact because my parents, my mother
especially, worked in Chinatown and as we got older, my older sister
actually went to Chinese school on Mott Street, CCBA [The
Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association] and my second
sister did and my younger brother. I was the only one who didn’t
go to Chinese school and my mother’s side of the story is that
I refused to go so she let me go, according to the story, so I never
learned Chinese that way, to write and read. But getting back to your
question, we would go out every Sunday because that was family day
and that was the place where my parents were very comfortable and we
would go out to eat for dim sum, hang out with his family friends in
the neighborhood, and basically, yeah, that was our contact, coming
out every Sunday, just to eat, go shopping, hang out with my mother’s
friends and my father’s friends.</p>
<p>Q:
So you mentioned you didn’t have family here. How did they
meet people? How did your parents meet people?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Tse:
Basically from their, well, it’s not a hundred percent true
that they didn’t have any blood relatives, but like family
friends, like my mother’s workers became very good friends. We
had some distant cousins here and basically, there was an association
that my father was affiliated with, people who came from the same
area in China got together, and so there was this organization called
the “Tees” group, the T-S-A group, you’ve probably
seen it in Chinatown, on Division Street and my father would go up
there and they would gamble and men would get together and just talk
and just hang out, so there was an association there and he would
bring the family around, the kids, just to meet his friends, so they
could see, Oh, these are your daughters, these are your lovely
daughters and your good son, kind of show the family off, so, that
was important for us to, to realize that there were other people who
were concerned about us.</p>
<p>Q:
So what part of China was that, were those, was that group of people
from?</p>
<p>Tse:
Mostly from Canton, Guangdong, in China.</p>
<p>Q:
I guess if you could talk more about growing up and high school and
then going to college and that whole process of where you went to
college and how you made those decisions.</p>
<p>Tse:
I went to a local school, after elementary school, I went to the
local high school, which was Midwood High School at Brooklyn College
and there were more Asians there, but I wouldn’t say that there
were new, first-generation Chinese. I mean, there were definitely
Chinese there whose families were wealthier, I remember, kids whose
families were in the medical profession, people who were pretty
well-off, probably second or third generation in America and I just
remember they were still no ESL [English as Second Language]
classes, but I remember in my sister’s grade there was a new
immigrant, she was Vietnamese and my sister became sort of like the
surrogate parent for that young girl because we understood what it
meant to be an immigrant and I remember my sister would bring her
friend home to kind of do homework together and kind of be together
and so I remember my sister kind of taking on the role, kind of like
teacher-slash-friend for this newcomer. For the most part, most of
the Asians in the school were pretty much like second or third
generation, I would say. And then later on I decided to go to New
York University and followed my sister’s footsteps, because my
sister went there first, I have to say.
And then, at NYU of
course, there were people from all over the world and that’s
one of the things that attracted me. I wanted to find a school where
people have similar experiences, but also people with wide
experiences and wanted to get to know more, different people. So, of
course everyone knows New York University has students from all over
the world, from many various different backgrounds. And I had a
really great experience there.</p>
<p>Q:
So, say, like, your friends in high school versus your friends in
college. How were they different?</p>
<p>Tse:
Actually, it’s kind of funny. In college, I would say was the
first time I met friends who spoke Chinese, who were new immigrants
and who were probably first generation Chinese-Americans and I spoke
Chinese in school. It was the first time, really that I made friends
there who were Chinese, who spoke Chinese.</p>
<p>Q:
And how did you decide to become a teacher? Can you talk about that
whole process?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, actually, going back to high school, during the summers there
was a program called SYEP [Summer Youth Employment Program], which
the government funded to have students work in different areas in the
city, so somehow I, the company or I guess the organization which
sponsored the program, was in Chinatown, so I ended up working in
Chinatown when I was 14 years old when I got those papers, my working
papers and all my summer jobs from the age of 14 to 18, during my
high school years, were in Chinatown. So I worked at the
Chinese-American Planning Council, every summer, working at their
summer youth program. I was either a - what was I – a
counselor. There are really big titles, but to a 14-year old, we were
really assistant counselors. There was somebody in charge of us. We
didn’t have that many responsibilities, but we, you just kind
of work with, pretty much like babysitting, watching the kids who
were younger than we were. So most of my jobs have been working in
the Chinese community since I was 14. And the last year in high
school, I remember, I was placed in a program where were worked with
kids who were slightly older, they were high school kids, so they
were almost the same as I was. And most of those kids were in school
in Chinatown and they didn’t speak English. So then I started
really tutoring, working with the students in another level and from
there I got interested to, in education and thought in college that
this was something I would
study, so when I got to NYU, I
continued, actually, to work at the Chinese-American Planning
Council, getting other kinds of jobs in different areas and kind of
stuck with that company for a while.
</p>
<p>Q:
And then you said after you graduated college, you started teaching?
Is that --</p>
<p>Tse:
Yeah, well, actually, after college I got a degree in elementary ed
and I taught sixth months in kindergarten, in Brooklyn, didn’t
enjoy it. The kids were very tiresome and somehow I found myself
taking time off and I came back to work at CPC as a full-time, for a
year. Then in that time period I decided to go back to get my
Master’s degree in teaching English as a second language. And
so then I applied to get a job at NYU, so I worked at NYU full-time
and taught a writing workshop to students and then I started to
pursue my Master’s and one year later, I interviewed at this
school and got a job here and here I am about ten years later and
still here, still enjoying it. The students are, as I put it before,
they are about, the school is about 70 percent immigrant students and
of those 70 percent, I would say 60 percent, 60 65 percent Asian
immigrants. Asian, Chinese immigrants. So, it’s kind of like
going back full circle to my background.</p>
<p>Q:
Can you tell a little bit about the class that you teach and about
the problems that the kids have and how you work through a lot of
their issues?</p>
<p>Tse:
In this school, we have a really good ESL program. We have all
levels of ESL, starting with beginner and it used to be that 10 years
ago we used to accept students who were at the really basic literacy
level learning English, so I remember doing very basic, just going
over the alphabet, A B C. Of course now, with the English Regents, we
don’t accept those kinds of students anymore. We still have
beginning level learning students, so that’s ESL 1, 2. We also
have Intermediate 3 and 4. Five and 6, 7 is a transitional English
class, English as a Second Language into a mainstream English class.
And so I’ve taught every level of ESL, from beginning to
intermediate and advanced and it’s really amazing to see in a
really short amount of time, from students can be here from three
months in this country, from three months to two years and they have
to learn a lot. A lot of skills, a lot of language skills. And the
ultimate goal is, for them, is to learn enough English to pass the
English Regents, which is mandated of every
student in New
York City in order to receive the high school diploma. So that’s
a big challenge, a really big challenge and they rise to the
occasion. I mean, that’s what’s amazing that in two
years, that they can learn such an incredible amount. I mean, if you
think about it, if you were to, if we were to go to another country
and could we master a language in two years? That’s
mind-boggling, yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
And so can you say, in the ten years that you’ve been here,
what you’ve seen in the changes in the students, where people
are coming from and what kind of English they come with or what kinds
of problems you’ve seen that have changed in the last ten
years.</p>
<p>Tse:
As I said before, ten years ago we actually accepted students who
were at the literacy level where we started with the alphabet and at
the same time, we also had students who have incredible amounts of
grammar and English levels, and most of the students came from Hong
Kong ten years ago. If you look at today’s student population,
most of our students come from more rural or small town farm areas in
China, Fukian, especially. I would say 80% of our students are from
Fukian today, yeah. And I would say of those students, about half of
them don’t have more than a sixth grade education, so that’s
another challenge that’s come up that they don’t have the
literacy skill in their own language so it’s hard for them to
actually transfer their knowledge of language into their second
language or their third language.</p>
<p>Q:
What do their parents usually do, here?</p>
<p>Tse:
I would say probably 99 percent of their parents are blue-collar
workers, work in factories, restaurants. There are a minority number
of students whose parents were at the technical level, doctors,
perhaps, nurses in China, but of course after coming here, they have
to get jobs to support themselves, so again, they are kind of working
blue-collar jobs.</p>
<p>Q:
And so what kinds of difficulties do you see them having here and
how do they kind of compare to the difficulties that you had when you
came?</p>
<p>Tse:
Their difficulties?</p>
<p>
Q: Yeah.</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, it’s interesting, because thinking back now a lot into
the things that we were missing as a child, we didn’t have
dolls, we didn’t have money to buy certain things. My clothes
were all secondhand because I had two older sisters, so when I tell
my students this, they’re like, What? How could you like,
didn’t you want more? Didn’t you have your parents like
give you stuff? So when I see a lot of students these days, actually
I would say are better off or at the same level that my parents were
at. I think you have to look at it in perspective, when you live in a
certain time period, you don’t think of the things you don’t
have because you don’t have them, but if you’ve had them
before and then all of a sudden you don’t have it, then you
compare and say, Oh my god, what happened? You know, why is our life
worse? Or, you know, what has changed for us? So I think that for
most students, because they didn’t have much before, and I
would say I would know at least a couple families who told me that,
you know, when they were in China, they really, they didn’t,
their parents didn’t work, you know, they really just stayed at
home, and every day was just passing by. They are so extremely
grateful to be here that they really, they really don’t care
about the clothes that they are wearing. The education is really the
most important thing to them.</p>
<p>Q:
Interesting. I guess we can talk a little bit about, should start
talking a little bit about 9/11 and you were pretty close to that
area. I guess first a little bit about that day and where people
were, if people were here and then more about what happened
afterwards and how the school dealt with it and the kids and if there
were any changes that happened because of it, at the school and any
counseling that the kids went through, or the teachers. So I guess a
little bit about what happened that day, or where you were or where
the kids were.</p>
<p>Tse:
Two years, last year, we did a little write-up, kind of like
memorial of the day and one of my students handed in this essay on
that day, he was on his way from China to come to the United States
and the plane was stopped and they had to re-route and stop in
California because of what happened here and he remembered that it
was, not so much scary, but a sense of not knowing what is going to
happen to you, so in his essay he writes they were just stranded in
this one place and nobody knew what was going to happen and now all
the dreams and excitement of coming here, you know, kind of like fell
backwards, you know, are we going to have to go back
to
China or are we going to move forward? So it’s kind of
interesting in retrospect those students who came here during that
year probably had a really amazing memory of probably what happened.
For us, that day, it was in the morning, and it was, from one of the
classrooms, you could see the smoke and you could see one of the
towers missing, and we remember, the entire school would try to like
move the entire student body into the auditorium so that people would
not go crazy or panic. We were just waiting word to see what happens,
you know, was it just a plane or was it something else. And of course
when we found out, you know, we couldn’t leave school, there
were no train available, so we thought we were going to camp out in
school that night. You know, the students were kind of, we were all
shocked, but we didn’t, most of the people here in our school
didn’t know anyone personally who was in the buildings. So I
guess it was, the shock was so great that we didn’t really
think about the reality of what was happening. We were just stunned,
you know, classes didn’t go on. We just basically sat around
and waited. The students, no one talk about it. They try to, try to
continue the day but not really knowing what to say. So it was a
really hard day, so –</p>
<p>Q:
Most of the kids weren’t from around here, you said? They
couldn’t just walk home, or –</p>
<p>Tse:
Some of the students were able to go home, you know, within walking
distance, but the rest of the students kind of waited. We had all of
the TVs on, just kind of waiting word to see if the trains would go
on, whether we should let the students go at 3 o’clock or not,
yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
And the rest of the week, did there, were there classes? Or what
happened, sort of just with the class, with the school?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, we were told to try to continue things, as much as possible,
but of course when you go home and you realize what happened, you
know, and a few days, as time passed, two days or three days later,
when it really sets in about the reality of what happened, it’s
really hard to just continue. And I would say, we had a social worker
at the time and she did go around to talk to the students in each
classes and really appreciate that she brought up certain things that
the teachers, you know, did not feel comfortable talking about or did
not know how to approach it. And it’s really hard because you
put your own personal opinion about what happens and we had some
Muslim students in the school as well.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
How did they experience 9/11 or what was their experience after
9/11?</p>
<p>Tse:
They were quiet about it, actually. I mean, later on, the following
years, a year later, because we heard about the hatred and what was
happening in their neighborhoods, but at that time, it was just, I
think we were all just stunned. There was no blame, there was no
animosity towards them, but we try to keep things in the low-key,
just try to move on.</p>
<p>Q:
Did they talk about what had happened in their neighborhood? What
were they saying about their experiences?</p>
<p>Tse:
They just, well, from what we heard in newspaper, you know, that
they were being shunned or, it wasn’t so much that they, since
I guess they, this school’s a pretty safe environment, so we
really tried, I mean most of the students know each other. It wasn’t
so much that our students were picking on the other students, but
when they went home to their own worlds, I guess they had a different
experience and it wasn’t so much shared in the school. Little
bits and pieces came out afterwards. You know, like especially a year
later, little things came out. They didn’t talk much the first
year, about their personal feelings or like what happened to them
afterwards.</p>
<p>Q:
So, after a year, how did it come out? Was it in counseling steadily
for a year or how did that work?</p>
<p>Tse:
There were a few students who actually met with social workers on a
one-to-one basis, who got counseling, but some of the teachers
addressed it to the entire class. We spoke, we sat in a circle the
second or third day and we talked about what happened. It’s
just still, like, for the students, I don’t think they really
want to talk about it. I don’t know whether it’s the age
or whether they don’t think it really affected them, but they
just didn’t want to talk about it, just wanted to move on, it’s
like, Miss Meiling, can we just get back to what we were doing
before? Just really just kind of want to forget about it, just kind
of move on.</p>
<p>Q:
Have they been like that the whole time? They’ve never wanted
to talk about it, or --</p>
<p>
Tse: The second year we had a memorial. Like each 9/11, the
school, we put a memorial. We have students come up to a wall and
write things, write their memoirs, write what they felt, what
happened that day. And for that one day, I would say, it’s
still so much like, it’s a one-day deal and after that, they
don’t really want to talk about it.</p>
<p>Q:
What about you, your experiences that day? How were you feeling or
how did you react or –</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, my sister actually worked in that building and her company
actually moved out of that building a few months ago, so like I, I
didn’t personally know anyone who worked there, except my
sister who had moved out, so I was very relived, but I remember just
like a blackout, you call everyone you know and want to find out if
they’re okay, but itwas, it’s still hard, like for
everyone else and you stay glued to the TV to hear the news.</p>
<p>Q:
Was, were any of your students affected in terms of their parents
losing jobs or any of those kinds of effects?</p>
<p>Tse: Well,
I know, like, there was a big drive to really help the students fill
the forms so they could get from FEMA [Federal Emergency Management
Agency], the aid they needed. A lot of students who were concerned
about their parents were lost jobs in this area. Even the students
who didn’t live in this area, in the Chinatown area, their
parents worked down here, so parents who lost their jobs, the social
workers would try to help them to apply for aid, to help them get
financial assistance.</p>
<p>Q:
So what kinds of aid programs were there? Because I’m not too
clear about what kinds of aid programs there were.</p>
<p>Tse:
There’s the FEMA program. So, I mean, we all knew it
personally, so we tried to send the students down there to get the
forms and they would come back here and ask us to help them fill it
out. I had a friend whose son actually worked in the office, so I had
some connections there and I got some forms for them. I had a, they
actually had, they were, I mean it was translated in Chinese, so it
was, there wasn’t so much problems in filling out the forms,
but actually getting
people there to stand in lines,
reassuring that it was okay to go there and get help from other
people.</p>
<p>Q:
Was there a lot of reluctance to do that? To get help, to go seek
help?
</p>
<p>Tse:
I think they were appreciated at the end, appreciative, the
students. In the beginning, it was, like, they weren’t, they
couldn’t believe it, I would say, there was such a thing
existed in the United States, where they can get all this help. But
they did bring the information back to the parents and you know, back
and forth, the information got to the parents and somehow, they got
the assistance, some of the students got the assistance they needed.
</p>
<p>Q:
And who was eligible for it and how –</p>
<p>Tse:
In our school, we have a free lunch period for a hundred percent of
the students, so I would say 99.9 percent of the students probably
qualified.</p>
<p>Q:
To get the free lunch?</p>
<p>Tse:
Right. And probably for other assistance programs.</p>
<p>Q:
So after 9/11, were there other assistance programs? Did the school
apply for any money or were there other extra programs here?</p>
<p>Tse:
Our school wasn’t directly affected by what happened, but I
know that there were other funds. We did get, I mean this was, I
guess, you know I think about a year later or within that year, we
had, you know, different organizations approach us, with different
things. We brought a hundred kids to see Beauty and the Beast on
Broadway. Yeah, yeah, that was from one of the organizations which,
you know, really felt for our school because we were so close to what
happened. And there were a couple things that, you know, that we were
able to achieve. I mean, , some of the, you know, benefits, I guess
you can say, unfortunately, through what happened.</p>
<p>Q:
So what organization did that, the Beauty and the Beast?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Tse:
I think it was the Broadway, I don’t know the organization,
the artists on Broadway, something like that.</p>
<p>Q:
They just gave you guys a hundred tickets?</p>
<p>Tse:
Yeah, to bring the kids to see the show.
</p>
<p>Q:
How was that experience?</p>
<p>Tse:
The show, I mean, that’s great, I mean, anytime you get to
take a bunch of kids on Broadway and just the show itself is very
entertaining. And we told them, it’s because of this reason and
they were very appreciative, that people were thinking of them. I
mean, I was very appreciative that, you know, that we were able to
take a hundred kids on Broadway for free. That’s not easy to
come by.</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah, that’s, that’s good. So, were there any other also
effects in terms of health after 9/11? From the, were there more
cases of asthma from the fallout from the World Trade Center or also
from pollution in the, in this area?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, we noticed that the air [unintelligible] quality was not as a
good. You know, on some days, especially in the first few weeks, it’s
like evidently there was something in the air and we were asked not
to open the A/C because the filter was probably contaminated. I tried
not to open my windows at all just because, like, you never know,
like if you hear about it and you feel afraid, you’re not sure
what’s going to happen. I don’t think the kids really,
like, you know, other people, especially the students, were that
concerned about. They didn’t think about, you know, probably
long-term effects. And they didn’t really feel that there was
any danger you know in the air. I know there was a big push to get
air filters and different things in the school at that time, but due
to our lack of funds, we didn’t go that far. I think they only
clean out the air-conditioner filters and that was it.</p>
<p>
Q: So does the school have a lot of funds, you said there was
funding problems. Are there, can you talk a little more about that?</p>
<p>Tse:
The funding problems in our school?</p>
<p>Q:
Yes.</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, I think it is just the way the, comes from the top. It depends
how they decide to, where they decide to spend their money. I mean,
teachers don’t, we really don’t get a say in how the
money is spent in school, whether we should have, hire more teachers
or other support staff. We don’t really have a role in that. If
we did, probably things would be run a little bit differently. But
you were saying, do we have more support? Well, I can say that our
school is probably much better off, I mean we have no problems in
terms of chalk, missing chalk. There is always lack of books, you
know, if we want to get a few more copies of a certain book or we
want to try to use a new book, we would have to wait and wait and
then wait until there are funds for it. So definitely textbook money
is hard to come by, [unintelligible]</p>
<p>Q:
So, actually, I don’t know if we’ve talked about this
being –</p>
<p>[Lan
asking to stop the tape to adjust the lighting after a light blew
out.]</p>
<p>Tse:
It’s not going to go on, though because it probably blew out.</p>
<p>[Consultations]</p>
<p>Tse:
That’s not the first time it happened. It just goes out and
either it comes back on or we have to call the custodian. They’re
not going to come today.</p>
<p>Q:
As long as it’s not flickering, I guess.</p>
<p>[Break
in tape]</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, I guess we were kind of at a stopping point, so if we
want to go back now and talk more about your childhood and what you
remember about coming to the States and why your parents came and why
they chose New York. And a little bit about what you remember about
being really young in Hong Kong.</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, when my students ask when I immigrated here, 1972 was the year
and we do a little research into history and that was the time when
Nixon was president and welcome arms. They wanted immigrants. The
immigration door was wide open and it was relatively easy for us to
come here. My family was sponsored by my father’s boss who had
a business connection with my father. It was under his kind graces
that he sponsored us and actually probably paid for our entire
passage to America. My family consists of my mother, my father, my
two older sisters and a younger brother and myself, that’s six
of us, couldn’t have been that cheap and my father worked for
this person for the last, I guess, 25 years until he retired and
until the guy passed away. Getting back to your question of why did
my parents come here, my parents were born in Toisan (??) which is
Toisan, you know, Toishan is the way you say it in America and they
immigrated to Hong Kong during the wartime and my parents met in Hong
Kong and had all four of us there before the opportunity came up for
them to immigrate to America. We were the first part of our family to
come here, my mother’s sister’s family is still there in
Hong Kong. On my father’s side of the family, they went to
different places. They went to Holland. We have two of my brothers
live in Holland. We also have some half-brothers who are in the
United States, but pretty distant relatives and we don’t really
get together. But my parents immigrated here for, of course, a better
opportunities. They understood that if we stayed in Hong Kong
probably that was not the way that my parents wanted to raise us.
They wanted to give us more opportunities to, in this new land. And
probably all the stories about America, you know, the golden gates,
the gold on the floor, the clichés about America, you know,
that was true for my parents. They believed in it, they believed in
the American dream. And even though my father would have to take a
low-paying job when he came here and my mother didn’t know what
she would do when she came here, they decided take the risk and all
of us came over here at the same time. We were probably lucky that we
all came here together because some of my students today, some of my
students are here by themselves or some of the students, their
parents have come earlier than them because they haven’t, due
to paperwork of some sorts, they weren’t able to come together
as a whole family and so that kind of disbalances the family unit and
I think we were lucky that my entire
family were able to
come at one time and of course at that time there were probably
programs for people who came in, to help us out. I don’t
remember any specifics, I just remember there were a lot of people
who did help us out. My father’s business, his boss and friends
which they made later in the neighborhood, the Chinese families, were
probably the main people who helped us get grounded in our new life
here and --</p>
<p>Q:
What did your dad do when he was in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>Tse: He
was a sailor and when he came here, because of some connections he
made with a person he knew there, the person trusted him and trusted
him, I guess, a lot and when he came here, he worked for him.</p>
<p>Q:
So he was a sailor and he would leave Hong Kong a lot to go on
trips?</p>
<p>Tse:
Right, right.</p>
<p>Q:
And do you remember being in Hong Kong?
</p>
<p>Tse:
My parents had a small soda shop there, so we have a few pictures
from Hong Kong where my two sisters and I are sitting at the front
doorstep of this candy shop and black-and-white pictures and at the
garden, and different places. My sister remembers more because she
was actually seven when she came. I was four when I left so I don’t
have many memories. There are a couple, few memories, places, because
I did go back to Hong Kong twice, as an adult and don’t
remember the places. It’s very a big city, it’s similar
to New York City, 42<sup>nd</sup> Street, so it’s not that big
of a change.</p>
<p>Q:
So can you talk about going back actually, your experience? What was
it like going back?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, my mother’s sister still lives there with her family so
when I went back, I contact them and they brought me to some places I
didn’t remember. I mean, the places were very different. My
mother has actually gone back to Hong Kong before I went back and
basically things in her hometown haven’t changed much. In the
way you had to walk to get to certain
place. Still very
poor living conditions, but in the city, if you were to stay in the
city, in a hotel, I mean it’s no different from New York City.
Yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
So did you go back to her hometown as well?</p>
<p>Tse:
I didn’t know anyone there, so when I went back to Hong Kong,
it was with friends and it wasn’t a visit with my mom. So if I
were to go again, a trip with my mom would probably be more
meaningful it terms of searching my family’s roots. But my
mother’s sister was there and her daughter was about the same
age as me, took me around, she took me around. Her mother’s not
well, so she couldn’t tell me much about her, their life there.
But Hong Kong is a very hip city. It’s like New York City. She
grew up in the city. They really have no desire to immigrate to
United States. I asked her once, before ’97, I went back and
they’re pretty happy there. They have a whole life there.
There’s no reason to leave. They’re professional people
there, so I mean if they were to come here, it would be just to
visit.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you feel a connection to her or, because you’d never met
her, right?</p>
<p>Tse:
Only through pictures.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was that like?</p>
<p>Tse:
It was amazing. We connected. Even though we’re family, we
haven’t really seen or spoken, just through parents’
letters, we kind of knew of each other and what we studied and what
we were good in and what our parents thought of us and so we met. It
was more of, because we were blood that really we connected and kept
in touch.</p>
<p>Q:
Was she the same age? What did she do there?</p>
<p>Tse:
She was a graphic designer and her older sister worked with her
husband in their own business and her other sister was an aspiring
dancer at that time. [Laughs.] I think she’s a housewife now,
but they all were, they had big dreams, you know, but to pursue them
in Hong Kong, not with any intention of leaving that place.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
So what surprised you most about going there?</p>
<p>Tse:
That there wasn’t much of a difference compared to New York
City. Of course there was the language, people spoke Cantonese more
and really appreciated that we spoke Cantonese with them. We spoke
English with them in some places, which was fine because they spoke
English.</p>
<p>Q:
What surprised you most about going back?</p>
<p>Tse:
What surprised me most was that Hong Kong wasn’t that big of a
surprise in terms of, if you were to travel to another country, you
would think that things were really different and there wasn’t
really. It was a big city. I stayed in the main part of the city, in
a hotel. If you traveled to some of the poorer places, of course life
is very different. Wild dogs there and the place you go, the
cemeteries, the old style cemeteries are probably places you want to
visit just to see, you know, there’s a hint of the old
lifestyle there, but in the city, there’s not much different
from New York City.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you, I was going to ask, did you feel like it was going home? Or
where do you feel like your home is? Did you feel at home there?</p>
<p>Tse:
I was a tourist. I was a visitor. I mean, I don’t have any, I
haven’t been there for the past, since I came here, with my
mother’s sister’s family, my aunt’s family who were
there, I wouldn’t have anyone to visit there. I would say
because I’ve been in America for such a long time, you know,
actually went through the whole citizenship process when I was 18
years old and was sworn in in a courtroom and everything. I would say
that I consider myself a Chinese-American.</p>
<p>Q:
And what about your parents? What do they feel about what they are?
</p>
<p>Tse:
I think as most families, if you live in a place long enough, even
if you don’t consider it your home, you know, if you’ve
been in a place long enough, it’s hard for them to consider any
other place to live. I remember when we were younger, they would say,
Oh, when we retire, we’re just going to go back to Hong Kong
and live there and leave you guys here, you know. But
I
don’t hear them say that anymore and I think it’s because
they’re so used, and they like living here. They have their
family, they have their life here. If they were to move back to
another country, back to Hong Kong, or China, they would have to
start over again with their friends and settling down. Everything is
just so convenient here. My parents are pretty traditional people. I
mean, they don’t have any American friends, basically, and they
live really in their own world, very sheltered world. But I would say
that they’re very comfortable. They know how to get on the
subway and go to places where they like to go, go to the park,
Central Park or go to Brooklyn Botanical Gardens, so there are
certain places that they know how to get there, and, you know,
Chinatown is always there and they’re just very comfortable
where they are. They consider, I think they consider America to be
their home.</p>
<p>Q:
And, I guess if you also talk a little bit about sort of your
process of what Lan was saying about becoming American, sort of the
difficulties in that and what point you felt like, or if you can
remember any specific incidents where you felt, like, okay, actually,
I belong here now or I feel American now? Or not?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, the term “what is an American?” is very
philosophical and there are many ways to answer it. I think my best
answer is, came about when my students asked me, so what, of course
with the intention of thinking, what should we consider ourselves?
and so if you had to answer that question, you had to be very careful
with what you say because you’re influencing someone else and
that’s scary, right? But I would say I’ve always
considered myself a Chinese-American. Chinese because of my cultural
background, you know, the way I look, the way I was brought up, the
values my parents instilled in me, and I would also say I would
attach the American too because this is the country that you live in
and there are other values, other behaviors, other cultures that you
added onto yourself to make you the person you are today. So I
wouldn’t say, completely say that I’m just Chinese
because you know if you live in China, you might say that you’re
just Chinese, right? Just because you live in America doesn’t
mean that you’re just an American because you have other
historical links to yourself. So we say America is a melting pot.
America is not just one kind of person or, you know, you’re not
just one kind of person, you’re always linked to another
country or another cultural background, so even if I think two or
three generations down, you know, like my children’s children’s
children, I would teach them to be Chinese-American. I would like
them to consider themselves Chinese-American.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
What do your students, what is your students’ take on that?
Are they eager to be American?</p>
<p>Tse:
They think I’m, they view, in the beginning, yeah. They were
surprised I speak Chinese. Even though I look Chinese, in the class
progressed, they think I’m totally American. So they would
consider me as an American. It’s only after my speech or after
getting to know me, probably two or three months later, that I’m
very Chinese in certain ways and have similar values or understand
where they’re coming from, that they begin to realize that, oh,
you’re Chinese too. So probably Chinese-American.</p>
<p>Q:
So when you say you feel very Chinese, what is, how does that, how
do you experience that or how do you feel like you know that?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, I don’t want to go into any stereotypes of what it means
to be an American, but you can look at certain behaviors of the
Chinese-American who grew up here, the teenagers who grew up in New
York City are much more verbal, not to say I’m not, but just
that they’re behavior, who they hang around with, their living
conditions, their environment, influence them to be who they are, the
TV they watch, the friends they hang around with, the books they
read, if they read at all. I think that those external factors
influence them more than the internal factors and the fact that
probably their parents are more, you know, assimilated in society
that they’re more external, they’ve accepted the external
parts more, too. So I think compared to my students, who only been in
America two years, this is, all who they are has been from their
upbringing and they’ve been brought up in China all these
years, so they haven’t assimilated yet, even though their
forced to do certain things, but they haven’t totally accepted
it or you don’t have to like it, but maybe not even
understanding it could be problem for them too, to consider
themselves an American yet.</p>
<p>Q:
So growing up, what I guess, if we could go over what, growing up,
in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s, was different from
kids who immigrate here when they’re five and grow up here now?
Just how it was different culturally or socially?
</p>
<p>
Tse: I would say, I want to talk about the similarities first
because as I said before, I tell my students I remember going to
school and not understanding the teacher. I remember learning A B C
from the beginning. I even though the age, there’s an age
difference, I was four and they’re sixteen, seventeen, there
are similarities. The struggle of first having to speak English, not
understanding other people, not understanding the context of culture
or [unintelligible] whatever, the difference is that I was younger
and probably was able to play without using language, probably able
to blend in, things weren’t that academic at that point, when
you’re four years old, five years old and things are different
for students now. Students who are 13, 14, coming to America, are
probably at a crossroads in their lives because they’re coming
of age, they may, depending on their level of English skills, I would
say most of our students have some kind of background in English.
They’ve studied English as a foreign language in their country,
so, they’ve learned some grammar rules and depending on how
much they’ve learned, sometimes does influence how successful
they’re going to be here. Because of the age and pressures of
finishing high school, how much, how many friends you make here,
American friends you make here will also influence how much you push
yourself into the American culture, I think. So, the differences are,
in terms of the age, I would say, the environment is very different.
I remember, we were able to play out in the streets until I don’t
know what time and that, of course, understanding, I grew up in, not
a great neighborhood, but a pretty decent neighborhood. I remember a
time coming home I had to be chaperoned because the people were
hanging out on the stoop and of course if you go to New York City
that’s not a big deal because lots of people hang out on the
stoop, but for my parents, they were like, bad people hang out on the
stoop after 9 o’clock, so we were never allowed to go out
certain times. But again that’s in my parents days, they were
very traditional and they were very, since they didn’t know
anyone in this country, they were very protective and their rules
were very strict for us. I think our students today, the rules are a
little looser. Pretty much they’re on their own. They learn to
be independent, they are independent. Probably in China before they
came they were independent. A lot of our students went off to school,
didn’t live at home and they had to learn to cook and clean for
themselves, so it’s almost, it’s almost a blessing for
them coming here with those skills because now they have to learn to
be independent and to take on a lot of responsibilities and
practically become mature overnight. They have to learn to do all
these things on their own without their parents’ help or
advice.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you, so you said you were less independent, you said,
growing up than a lot of these students?<br><br>
</p>
<p>Tse:
Yeah, totally.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you ever go through a period of rebellion where you, you know,
had friends who were more, you know, had looser parents and you
wanted to be more like that?</p>
<p>Tse:
I would say I didn’t really connect with that many friends who
were outgoing in school but I can tell you about my sister who was
very rebellious and I remember she ran away from home twice and we
found her at an American boy’s home and they were just friends
and we knew the guy later on, a few years later, and they were just
friends. That was junior high school. She was probably 12 or 13 years
old and there were certain things that my parents didn’t allow
her to do, probably stay out later than she wanted, you know, come
home earlier than she wanted to come home or do certain things like
go to parties or do certain things that she wanted to do. So she was
the rebellious one. She would run away or stay out late,
intentionally not come home with me, you know, those kinds things,
just to tell my parents, hey, I don’t want to follow your
rules. I was a good one. I basically listened to my parents. I did
well in school, I studied hard. I read books. Books were really my
friends. I did a lot of reading. I listened to my parents.</p>
<p>Q:
And you had a brother also.</p>
<p>Tse:
I had a younger brother.</p>
<p>Q:
Was he rebellious?</p>
<p>Tse:
Not really. I would say, we were, I wouldn’t say sheltered, we
were kind of sheltered. You know, our family did things together,
like on Saturdays we would play ball together. We would go out as a
family and kind of stay together, because my parents didn’t
have many friends then either, so we hung out together. My parents
tried to find things for us to do together and we became, we became
friends, each other’s company.</p>
<p>
Q: So where is your younger sister now?</p>
<p>Tse:
My brother?</p>
<p>Q:
The rebellious sister.</p>
<p>Tse:
Oh, she’s married. She lives in Queens and she works in a law
firm. My older sister is also a teacher. She teaches in Harlem. She
teaches elementary school.</p>
<p>Q:
And where’s your brother?</p>
<p>Tse:
My brother’s unemployed right now. He’s in the computer
field, so they’re having a hard time looking for a good company
who will support what he’s interested in doing.</p>
<p>Q:
I guess, can you, let’s see. I don’t know if you have
anything else to say about the difficulties of just coming here and
just from the time you came to high school, what sorts of
difficulties you had in feeling assimilated or comfortable in the
society?</p>
<p>Tse:
I would still say, like, growing up, as a first generation, as you
know, with my parents still being a very strong influence on my life,
that we didn’t, you know, the things that were important to
American teenagers weren’t that important to us, going to the
prom or – I went to graduation, but I didn’t go to prom.
Those things weren’t that important to me and you know, just
hanging out, having slumber parties, things that the typical, what
you would say the typical American students are doing, just hanging
out on weekends, were really not that important to me. And I think it
was probably because of my parents’ upbringing, you know, my
upbringing under of my parents’ eye and I think it was the time
period was very different. Yeah, I don’t know what to say about
that.</p>
<p>Q:
You think different than now?</p>
<p>Tse:
Yeah.</p>
<p>
Q: In what way?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well I think because the very strong and structured family, right, I
grew up with. I think the students today, they, even though the
family is still very important and a lot kids still have both parents
at home, yet there are other kids who don’t or who have one
parents and that definitely influence the way they think and the way
they live their lives.</p>
<p>Q:
How would you say it influences them?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, in terms of knowing who they are probably. The way – you
can tell by the way they dress, if they go shopping at certain
places. And they’ve only been here for six months, but they
know where to buy clothes. Or they have a certain kind of clothing
because they want to fit in and they never had this before and now
they’re here alone or they have one parent and they need to –
and they can probably persuade a parent to get something for them
because there’s only one parent that they can probably get it.
A lot of our students also work, too. They get part-time jobs,
working in bakeries or as waiters, part-time and so they have a
little bit of cash flow. The school is an alternative school, which
means that we have older students. Some of our students graduated
from high school, a small percent, like 2 percent, actually graduated
from high school in China and are ready to go in college, but because
they want to get their high school diploma here to, to also improve
their English, they come to this school. So the goals are a little
different. I would say that the students here are a little more
mature than other students because of their age and a lot of them are
here alone. They live here, they have to support themselves. They
have different concerns and goals in life.</p>
<p>Q:
So how would you say their self-image differs from yours when you
were their age because you said they have a lot of obsession with
clothing or with fitting in.</p>
<p>Tse:
Not all, I would say some. There’s a group of students in this
school from Hong Kong and they’re all very chic and you can
just tell, when you walk in the hallways, if you didn’t know
them, they were from Hong Kong, just by the way they’re
dressed, the way their hair is styled or the way they talk. Of
course, speaking Cantonese gives it away too. But just their
personalities is a little different. They were their pants like down
to their hips. They try to be very Americanized.
There are
certain t-shirts they wear, Stussy, this new brand that came out
that’s very popular. They spend stuff on jewelry. They have
earrings. They have necklaces. They’re a different breed than
the students who came from China who probably – their parents
grew up in more traditional, very small, maybe come from the farm,
rural areas in China. Life is very different for them.</p>
<p>Q:
So how do these groups interact in school?</p>
<p>Tse:
Just like in high school, where I grew up, there are different
groups of people, different cliques, different groups hang together
and here, it’s no different. People hang, group together based
on where they grew up. Either it’s language or sometimes, very
rarely, personalities. You know, you have the Hong Kong group, the
Cantonese group, the Fukienese group, you have the group who’s
very smart and just loves to study, doesn’t matter where
they’re from, they stick together, there’s a group who
love to speak English and they find other friends who have similar
interests. So it’s no different from high school, but, well,
there’s no jocks. I don’t see any Chinese jocks here. So
that’s, that group is missing. But very similar to any teenager
growing up, they’re, you know – people find friends who
have similar interests or background as them, so, that’s not
very different.</p>
<p>Q:
And so when you were growing up, you said that – was it
strange to be one of the only Chinese people in your high school?</p>
<p>Tse:
I didn’t say I was the only Chinese. I would say I was one of
the – probably one or two immigrant Chinese families who went
to school there. As far as the other Asians, I didn’t really
consider them Chinese, more like Americans because they didn’t
speak Chinese or if they spoke Chinese, they basically acted
differently. All their friends were friends with other Americans,
people who were very popular in school, that kind of teenaged life.
They did things differently. They were in different clubs, different
social groups.</p>
<p>Q:
So did you not – you didn’t have much relationship to
the other –</p>
<p>
Tse: I did. With one girl I did, but it was more platonic
relationships. Because we were in the same class you kind of shared
similar – I didn’t want to say homework, share homework,
but we shared some conversations about the class, but I wouldn’t
say we, after class, we went to lunch together.</p>
<p>Q:
And what attitudes did your parents have towards dating or that kind
of stuff?</p>
<p>Tse:
Yeah, well, their attitude was – we had to secretly date,
secretly have crushes or secretly go out with our friends. Everything
was secretive because our parents just never addressed the issue. You
can marry after college or something like that and, in one way, they
pretty much were liberal in letting us find out for ourselves. On the
other hand, I would think they didn’t want us to find out, so
that’s why they didn’t ever talk about it. And I think
kids today are a little more sophisticated, because they started
dating when they’re 16, 17 years old or even if they haven’t
done it, they know about it. They’ve seen their friends who’ve
gotten pregnant or gotten abortions or whatnot or even divorces.
Different social problems have forced them to accept these ideas.
They’re a little more sophisticated than I was.</p>
<p>Q:
So your parents never talked about it?</p>
<p>Tse:
They never talked about it. Well, even we tried to bring it up. My
sister had a boyfriend when she was very young, I think the first
year of high school and it wasn’t the house she ran away to,
not the boy that she ran away with, but my parents would say, like,
You can date anyone who’s not Chinese, you know, let alone
marry. But like you know, you really shouldn’t date a person
who’s not Chinese because you might – with the assumption
that you might end up marrying him. So my sisters and I would
secretly date.</p>
<p>Q:
Did you date people who were Chinese?</p>
<p>Tse:
In the beginning, yes, but later on, in college, we would date
outside our race. I mean, our parents never knew. Yeah, it wouldn’t
sit right with them.</p>
<p>Q:
So even now, how is their idea about that?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Tse:
Now, they are become more flexible. They just want – my sister
did marry a Vietnamese-Chinese guy, so, you know, they’re very
happy about that. But I think their views on marriage is – they
would probably prefer – I’m still single, but if –
they would probably prefer me to marry a Chinese-American person
rather than anything else, but you know, they knew I was dating a
Caucasian person. They didn’t say anything about it. They went,
Mmm hmmm. They didn’t say much. They didn’t say, “Yeah,
this is great!” but they didn’t say, “Oh, no, you
shouldn’t do that.” They didn’t say that, they
didn’t resist. I think it’s probably because they
themselves have gotten used to maybe hearing different things or
they’ve gotten more relaxed with their values about what should
– you know, things aren’t so black and white anymore for
them. I think they were very protective in the beginning because
everything was very new to them. They were really just trying to
protect us. They were trying to figure out things for themselves.
</p>
<p>[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]</p>
<p>Q:
I guess more about dating. What about your other sisters or your
brother – are they married?
</p>
<p>Tse:
No, they’re still single, but basically, I haven’t seen
them with anyone else other than Chinese, so I guess they’re
pretty much dating Chinese people.</p>
<p>Q:
Do they feel more comfortable that way, or –</p>
<p>Tse:
I didn’t ask them about it. I – for myself, I think
there’s – it just kind of depends who the person is and
who you associate yourself with. So if most of their friends are
Chinese, they probably – that’s their circle of friends.</p>
<p>Q:
And how about you? Do you feel more comfortable dating
Chinese-Americans?</p>
<p>Tse:
It’s not a matter of comfortable. I think it’s more
convenient, like if you’re going somewhere and you want to –
because I speak Cantonese and some of the guys I’ve dated who
are Chinese don’t speak the language very well and I always say
something to make fun of them and, you know, it’s kind of fun
to have some kind of commonality, even though they’re not
fluent. You can say something. There’s a joke. You say
something that you don’t want someone else to hear. It’s
kind of nice. It’s kind of like a secret language or something
you both have in common. It’s just kind of fun.</p>
<p>Q:
Do you feel like it’s easier to connect with people who speak
Cantonese as well as English?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, if their background, their growing up is similar, I think
definitely there is connection there instantly, but not necessarily.
There are other things that are important, your values and basic
chemistry.</p>
<p>Q:
And so how connected do you feel to the Chinese community either
here in Chinatown or where you live?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, the area where I’m living right now is another growing
Chinatown, so I kind of feel like I’m living in Chinatown
because there are Chinese restaurants all around, Chinese
Laundromats, Chinese supermarkets, Chinese groceries. There’s
everything there and it’s actually in the last five years. I’ve
lived there all my life, but that community is actually growing.
There are more Chinese moving in so – they speak the same
language I do. I’m kind of hesitant to say this, but I’ll
say anyway. I kind of feel like I’m looking for another place
to move where there’s not so many Chinese just because there’s
just like I think I want a place quieter. Not that I want to move
away from Chinese people, but I think one of the reasons I moved into
this neighborhood was because it was nice and quiet. Sometimes when
you want to – you know, after work or you just want to kind of
move away from your job and I’ve worked in Chinatown, near this
area, Lower East Side, my entire life and I went to school at NYU,
very close to Chinatown and a lot of times a lot of my social
activities have been in this area, so it’s very convenient,
it’s very comfortable to be in this area. At the same time, as
you grow older, you realize that there are other places to go visit,
other people to meet, other challenges, other people you definitely
want to meet, other things to do besides in your community, so while,
yeah, I feel like I’m going to work in this community, I’m
going to help this community grow, at the same time, part of the
American Dream, part of the society is to really understand America
is not just Chinatown, it’s not just this area. And you want –
I want my students to understand that too, where they can always come
back to. I always joke about it with my friends, like, we come to
Chinatown to eat,
to take advantage the cheap prices, the
groceries, and then we go back to our homes. But it’s kind of
true, in a way. We want to connect to our Chinese roots, but on
another level, we want to be in mainstream American society where,
you know, there are other things in life to be enjoyed and to be
discovered, too.</p>
<p>Q:
How do you feel like you came to that kind of understanding?</p>
<p>Tse:
I guess probably through friends, if you go to certain restaurants,
you venture our of your neighborhood to try something new. Like when
the first time I went rock climbing and then you think, okay, what
else am I going to do next? You kind of stretch. Once you stretch,
you think of more things to do and you kind of step outside your
circle, your box. And I think that’s very important, too. If
you always stay inside your circle, you’re not going to grow
and you have to compare. You have to look at your life in retrospect
with everything else in your whole world.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was your neighborhood before it became more Chinese? Maybe
like 5 or 10 years ago?</p>
<p>Tse:
There were some Chinese living there, but on my block there were two
Chinese families. Mostly Jewish people, Russian people in the area, I
would say. Some Italians.</p>
<p>Q:
So now is it people who are just coming to the States or is it
people who’ve been here for a while?</p>
<p>Tse:
I think it’s a mix. There’s a mix of business people who
are opening the restaurants and there are a mix of new immigrants.
Some of my students live in my neighborhood, so I know that there are
new immigrants too. So it’s mixed. And it’s kind of nice
to see a different mix, instead of just one type of socio-economic
group.</p>
<p>Q:
So how do you feel like your sort of generation who has been here
longer interacts with the newer generation?</p>
<p>
Tse: I think we – I think for myself, I can’t speak
for others, there’s still a very strong connection because I
still speak the language. I understand what’s going on, that
when you hear the problems or you hear the issues that they’re
– or the challenges they’re going through, you know,
you’re reminded of something very similar. So you’re not
that far, you know, far off. But I think for most of us, as we grow
older, like my sisters and I, we’re more compassionate towards
new immigrants and, you know, even though we joke, okay we were in
the same situation, we wore secondhand clothing or sometimes our
parents didn’t have presents, like we didn’t have
presents. We had to bring Christmas to our parents. Like, that kind
of thing, [unintelligible] the students and newcomers today. But at
the same time, because we’re at a different level, our
lifestyle is different, we’ve, you know, we’re making
money, we’ve quote-unquote arrived. You do feel a sense of
compassion who are now just, just coming across these challenges. I
mean I’m sure they have different challenges today, as growing
up as teen. There are probably things they don’t talk about
that’s on their minds, but there’s a lot of similarities.
I don’t think there are that many differences. There are
differences, certainly, but I think for any group coming from one
place to another, there aren’t that many differences.</p>
<p>Q:
So you talked about not having new clothes and not having Christmas.
Are there other things you really remember growing up that were kind
of – that you remember, just about immigrating here?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, I would say the food, the food. I didn’t grow up on
McDonald’s but I remember going to McDonald’s was a big
treat and I think that’s one thing a lot of kids enjoy. Maybe
it’s instilled in them, oh we’re going to McDonald’s,
it’s your birthday, so – when you become a teenager you
like the taste of burgers and fries instead of rice [laughs] and
vegetables and fish. But my parents always cooked Chinese meals at
home. We never ate any other kind of food and there were even strange
foods that they made that we ate and we liked and even today, if I
went to a restaurant, I would order something, ask for a certain
dish, like bitter melon and people would say, like, “Why would
you eat that? That’s disgusting! That’s bitter!” or
that’s a food that’s not acceptable to the American
palette, so it’s very strange, in a way, but it all comes
because of our upbringing. I know some of my friends whose children
who were born in the United States. Their palette is totally
different. They can eat hamburgers every single day. They can go by,
you know, once without rice. I would say my diet consists a lot –
at least 50 percent of
rice. And my mother’s
generation, they would not go through a day without rice. They think
they would die tomorrow if they did not have a bowl of rice today.
[Laughs] So their thinking, their eating habits, their thinking, is
quite different.</p>
<p>Q:
So do you remember, what kinds of treats did you have, if you didn’t
go to McDonald’s when you were little, what was like a really
special occasion when you were little?</p>
<p>Tse:
Going to a restaurant and eating Chinese food [laughs] was a special
occasion. Really. We didn’t go out much. You know, money was
pretty scarce and we had to save the rent and things like that. We
didn’t have much to buy.
</p>
<p>Q:
So what was your – did you live in an apartment or did you
live in a house or –</p>
<p>Tse:
We lived in an apartment for at least 15 years. In high school, we
finally moved, my parents moved into a house. We spent the entire
family savings. When I say entire family savings, I mean including
the children’s savings, like every, all our summer jobs, you
know or any other money we got from relatives or friends, New Year’s,
like all that, every single dime went into buying that – our
house, which is of course, like, every Chinese dream to own their own
land, to own their own house. Sixty-eight thousand dollars isn’t
much today, but in the ‘80’s, that was a lot to my
parents, so, we had a mortgage then and we all helped to pay for it
when we got jobs during summers, to help pay for it.</p>
<p>Q:
So what was the house like?</p>
<p>Tse:
Very Buddhist, you know. My parents still live there. It’s on
top of a store, so I mean, they’re very financially wise and
rent out the first floor, you know, and they have a mortgage and they
live on the second floor. Recently, they renovated the entire place.
For the first time they actually stripped the walls since we moved in
and they were able to do that because all of the kids are grown up
and we can retire them and what else do they need money now for? We
can go out every day to eat if they wanted to, but basically they’re
very comfortable there. They’re well off now, they have a place
to live without a mortgage. They have social security to live off and
they have all their children to, for all the extras that they need.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
So was the house – did you each have your own bedroom or how
big was it? Or –</p>
<p>Tse:
I think our first apartment was bigger than our house. I remember we
had like two bedrooms in our apartment but those rooms were really
big. Sixty-eight dollars a month, I remember, in the ‘70’s.
[Laughs] We were paying the highest rent, sixty-eight dollars. I
remember my neighbor paid about 20 dollars for rent. [Laughter] And,
really big apartment, that apartment has actually been demolished.
They built a school there, but I remember like the reason that we
moved. We didn’t actually want to move. We were forced to move.
We would just run wild there. It was a really big place. Big living
room. Two big bedrooms. A bathroom. Big kitchen. When we moved into
our house, it’s actually smaller than our apartment, but it was
our own and that’s important, to have something that you’re
not kicked out. Nobody has anything to say about what you’re
doing there, too.</p>
<p>Q:
So what did you, did you live together with your sisters or in the
house, what was the –</p>
<p>Tse:
What was the set-up? There were actually two bedrooms there, but
since my parents had one bedroom and my sisters and I all shared the
second bedroom and my brother was sleeping in the living room, until
he went off to college. So that was a good thing he went off to
college otherwise I don’t know where he would live. And when I
actually started teaching, I moved out myself because there just
wasn’t enough room in the house. It’s really small. So,
yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
So were all your sisters living there also?</p>
<p>Tse:
Yeah, yeah, throughout high school we had fights in there. Can you
imagine three girls in one room? Bunk beds. Okay, I’m taking
the top, you take the bottom. Switch the other days. Yeah, not, not
easy, but if that’s all you had you didn’t think
otherwise. Like now, I could never share a bedroom with my sister or,
like, you don’t want to share with somebody else. And also
imagine a bathroom sharing with six people. Like, I have my own
bathroom now, like, if someone else comes in, I’m like, there
isn’t room here for two people. So, you know, again the idea of
if you never had it before, you don’t miss it. You don’t
appreciate it either.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you have any other memories of that house or sort of growing
up in that ---</p>
<p>[Discussion
of lighting]</p>
<p>Q:
Do you have any other memories just growing up there?</p>
<p>Tse:
A lot of memories. That was the house, my sister got married there,
we put our first carpeting, wall-to-wall carpeting. It’s like
as we did better, our family did better, you know, a lot of
improvements made to the home. Our first big purchase was the ceiling
fan. It was really, you know, like a big thing. The kids, like, we
all chipped in and bought a ceiling fan, you know. [Laughs] That was
a big thing. So just like, growing up, those memories, the little
things that we could do to, to, to make our parents happier, to make
our lives easier. Those were the enjoyable moments, like when we had
Christmas, we would buy all the presents for ourselves and our
parents [laughs]. You know little things like that were good
memories.</p>
<p>Q:
Can you think of other memories like that, or other milestones in
your growing up?</p>
<p>Tse:
In growing up?</p>
<p>Q:
Growing up, or just living in this house and just what kinds of
things you remember, like buying the ceiling fan or these moments
where you just, or just that you think fondly of?</p>
<p>Tse:
I have to think for a while. There are so many things. Good and bad
things, that you experience with your family. I think we lived in the
house the same amount of time -- no probably we lived in the
apartment longer than in the house, so I think there are more
memories in the apartment, at least more special memories I think you
would say because we kind of played together with my sisters, or like
you know, we played house or pretend things on the floor or just grew
up in that apartment. When we moved to the house, our life kind of
ventured outside of the house, you know. We went off to college, so
we did things – or high school first. We did more things
outside the house than in the house, whereas growing up as a
youngster, we stayed in the house more than went out, so it was quite
different.</p>
<p>
Q: Did your grandparents ever – were they still in Hong
Kong? Or were they still alive?
</p>
<p>Tse:
They never came to this country. They were still in Hong Kong and my
grandmother passed away about five years ago and she’s –</p>
<p>Q:
Did you know her at all, or –</p>
<p>Tse:
Through the pictures and on the phone. Hearing stories about her.
She was the tallest one in our family. Little things about her, but I
didn’t know her personally.</p>
<p>Q:
She never came to visit.</p>
<p>Tse:
Yeah, she didn’t want to come. It was too long of travel and
she had family – I mean, her other daughter and family were
still there, so they were taking care of her.</p>
<p>Q:
Was that your mom’s mom or your dad’s mom?</p>
<p>Tse:
My mom’s mom. Yeah. My father’s side of the family kind
of scattered. He has half-brothers and sisters. He had a difficult
childhood. His family is not all together. You know, it terms,
they’re not really friendly towards each another. So he doesn’t
talk about it. But he has some half-brothers in the United States and
some half-brothers in Holland and, we keep in touch more with the
ones who are distant, yeah, than the ones who are close by.</p>
<p>Q:
Distant like Hong Kong or distant –</p>
<p>Tse:
Holland, yeah.</p>
<p>Q:
So do you know them?</p>
<p>Tse:
Yeah, actually, they came to America twice, so we actually know them
better than the ones who live in New York City. Yeah, and they’re
doing very well. There’s one, two of the sons are studying to
be doctors in Holland, so that’s a big thing. You know, like,
especially for my
parents. We have two doctors in the
family now, that’s a great thing. That’s too bad they’re
in Holland, they can’t help us here. But it’s just good
to hear that we’re all professional people working towards big
goals and what my parents, you know, their parents had, you know –
</p>
<p>Q:
Let me think. If we can talk about patriotism and how patriotic you
feel about America, especially after 9/11 and how that changed?</p>
<p>Tse:
Well, even before 9/11, when I got my citizenship at 18 I had to go
through the whole testing, the interview and then finally the
swearing-in. I mean, that whole experience really touched me. And
then later on, going to jury duty, you know, sharing those
experiences with my students, you know, what does it mean to –
what are certain things that an American is responsible for? You
know, I don’t take it lightly. It’s something that a lot
of people, maybe even Americans, don’t think of it as something
that’s really necessary and take it that seriously. But I do
take it very seriously and I’m very, when I go into jury duty I
kind of hope I’m chosen so I can sit on the case and hear it
and see what’s going on. I have been chosen for one and the
last two times I wasn’t, so it’s just an experience that
you really feel like, this is what it means, like you have the right
to decide on the fate of another person. You know, the little things
like that, if you didn’t, when you just study or hear about it,
you kind of take it for granted and you don’t know what it
really means until you’re in a position and even for our
students like when you give them that situation. You’re the
juror, you decide on the fate of this person. Wow, that’s
empowerment. Did you think you would ever get the chance anywhere
else in the world? So I do take that and I try to instill it in my
students too, just this sense of – not only responsibility, but
what does it feel like to be this, to be a part of this culture and
to live in this country. What are the things that you need to do to
be responsible and to be a citizen?</p>
<p>Q:
So is that, I mean that’s different from how your parents view
living here?</p>
<p>Tse:
I think so, I mean, they’re, I mean, for my parents as real
immigrants, true immigrants struggling with a family to feed,
probably their goals, their world looks a little different from mine.
I grew up, you know, wanting – I mean, them wanting the
experience of the American Dream, but me experiencing the American
Dream is different.</p>
<p>
Q: So do you feel patriotic or how do you feel about this country,
especially after 9/11, I guess.</p>
<p>Tse:
You’re asking for my political views?</p>
<p>Q:
No, I guess just how you feel as a citizen living here, especially
seeing what you’ve seen.</p>
<p>Tse:
I think many Americans mentioned it, but I also strongly feel that
we take freedom for granted and I feel like it’s something we
really need to revisit and think about because people have died for
our freedoms to be living here, to be walking around with all of our
freedoms, to be able to speak what we think and to be able to walk on
the streets safely, relatively safely, at night. I mean, like
something we take for given, Americans. And I think especially
immigrants, coming here, there are a lot of things they’re
pleasantly surprised about – oh, wow, we have this, we have
this, like you know, TVs, there’s so many TVs and we can get
Broadway shows for free, like all these incentives and all of these
opportunities which they couldn’t get anywhere else. I think
they really appreciate it and they really see the value of, you know,
living in this great country. And I think one more thing to say about
the immigrant experience is that if you ask my students, you know,
where they’ll be in five, ten years, some students will say,
you know, depending how long they’ve been here, even on average
some students will say, I see myself here, working here. Some
students say they seem themselves back in their country, like when
their chance comes, after they’ve gotten their education, their
degree, they’re going to go back and do something else. It’s
really interesting.</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah, that is interesting. Do you feel like you’ll stay here
in New York?</p>
<p>Tse:
[Laughs] Yeah, I love New York. I grew up in Brooklyn, but like New
York, I’m a New Yorker, yeah. If I could afford it, I would
live in New York City.</p>
<p>Q:
Yeah, it’s hard. I guess that’s about all unless you
have anything else to say?</p>
<p>Tse:
I’ve said so much. I can’t even remember what I’ve
said.</p>
<p>Q: I think
that’s about good. Thanks. Thank you.</p>
<p>END OF
INTERVIEW</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕請簡單講一下你是在哪里出生的,以及你父親跟你講的故事。</p>
<p>TSE:好的,我在---</p>
<p>[中斷]</p>
<p>問:我是Val Wang。</p>
<p>TSE:你要衝著攝像機講。</p>
<p>問:請稍微介紹一下你自己,你的名字,你在哪里出生,以及你的年齡。你的年齡?以及我們現在是在什麽地方。</p>
<p>TSE:我不用講自己的年齡吧?好吧,我告訴你,沒有關係。只要你不讓我的學生知道就可以。他們以爲我25歲。我們可以開始了嗎?還是我可以回答了?</p>
<p>問:可以了,只是姓名,年齡,我們所在的地方。</p>
<p>TSE:我名Mei Ling,姓Tse。我出生在香港,在我四歲的時候,我和我全家人移民到美國。我有兩個姐姐和一個弟弟。我們來這裏的時候,他只有一歲,我今年35歲。我在Lower East Side預備高中教書。正如我剛才所講,我出生在香港,我們全家是通過我父親移民到美國來的 – 是因爲我父親的工作。我是這樣跟我的學生描述這個有趣而又難以置信的故事的,我父親的老闆非常慷慨,爲了讓我父親在他餐館裏打工,他把我們全家申請到美國來。<br>
那個老闆在布魯克林區開了一家餐館,我父親就爲他打工。我父親這麽多年來一直是個忠誠的雇員,一直幹到他退休。我們在布魯克林區長大,離那個老闆所在的布魯克林區Sheepshead Bay地區不遠。我在那裏上的高中 – 小學,幼稚園。實際上,我那時連一個英文單詞都不會,因爲我移民到這裏時,一個英文單詞都不會。我父母不講英文,他們的朋友也不講英文。因此,即使在和朋友玩兒的時候,你都在學習英語。但因爲我沒有講英文的朋友,在上學的時候我沒有任何英文語言能力。我記得,我去的那間學校沒有雙語課程 – 學校裏沒有中國人,沒有我們現在的雙語課程。我記得上學的第一天我很害怕,因爲我聽不懂別人講話。我記得放學的時候,我躲在櫃子裏,老師不得不把我擡出來讓我回家。這是我最早的記憶。我跟我的學生講這些是想讓他們不要有太大的壓力,因爲每個剛到這裏的人都會有一段很困難的適應期。的確很難融入,甚至對於我,當時只有四、五歲,也不容易。但後來就好了,我學英文,上了高中和大學---</p>
<p>問:你花了多長時間學英文?或者說,多久之後你才覺得適應了這裏的環境?</p>
<p>TSE:我記得讀---,那些早期記憶之後幾年的事情我就記不清了,但我記得在三年級的時候自己讀書。在三年級夏天的時候,我去圖書館借了很多的書來讀。因此,我差不多在八歲的時候就能讀三年級的書,因此我來這裏的頭三年是很關鍵的。我不知不覺就學了很多。但具體是怎樣學的,我不記得了。</p>
<p>問:你在家裏講什麽話?</p>
<p>TSE:在家我的父母講廣州話,那是我們使用的唯一的語言。</p>
<p>問:在那段時間他們的英語有沒有進步?</p>
<p>
TSE:我的父母是藍領工人。我父親在餐館打工,他是服務員,我母親是裁縫,所以他們基本上用不上英文。總的來說,他們有去上課,想學,但直到現在,他們都用不上。他們在自己的社區裏生活,沒有必要用英文,所以他們---,我想他們還不能同美國人交流。所以,我們基本上---,實際上,他們這麽多年一直躲在自己的小圈子裏。</p>
<p>問:你談到在你長大的地方中國孩子不是很多。那麽在你小的時候,周圍沒有中國人的經歷如何?</p>
<p>TSE:我剛才講過,我有兩個姐姐和一個弟弟,所以我們全家基本上都在一起,和自己玩兒。我們有朋友,但他們基本上是學校同學。放學之後,我們很少跟他們在一起。我們回家後都很聽話。我們父母工作很忙,所以我們大多時間都在家裏。我們在家裏玩兒,去圖書館。我的姐姐是我的朋友,因此基本上我們在一起玩兒。</p>
<p>問:你是否有去唐人街,布魯克林區,或皇后區的華人社區?你是什麽時候去那裏的?</p>
<p>TSE:我們經常去,因爲我父母,尤其是我母親,在唐人街工作。在我們長大後,我大姐在Mott街上中文學校,CCBA [The Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association],我二姐和弟弟後來也有去。我是家裏唯一一個沒有上中文學校的。聽我母親講,是我不想去,所以她就沒有管我。據她說,我就是這樣沒有學寫和閱讀中文。但談回你的問題,我們每個星期日都有去唐人街,因爲那天我們全家休息,我父母也喜歡去那裏。他們在那裏吃點心,和附近的親戚朋友呆在一起。基本上,就是這些聯繫,每個星期日出來,去餐館吃飯,逛街,和我父母的朋友呆在一起。</p>
<p>問:你講過你們在這裏沒有親戚。他們是怎樣認識人的?你的父母怎樣認識人的?</p>
<p>
TSE:基本上是從他們---,他們並不是在這裏沒有任何親戚,而且像家裏的朋友,比如我母親和她的同事是很好的朋友。我們在這裏還有些遠房表親。實際上,我父親還參加了一個組織,從中國同一個地方來的人都聚在一起,有這麽一個叫“Tees”的組織,T-S-A團。你也許能在唐人街看到,在Division Street。我父親會去那裏賭博,男人坐在一起聊天。因此那裏有這麽個組織,他會帶他的家人、孩子去那裏,見他的朋友。這樣,他們會知道,哦,這是你的女兒,這是你可愛的女兒和聽話的兒子,向人家炫耀一下自己的家人。那樣才能使我們覺得還有其他人在關心我們。</p>
<p>問:那些人是從中國哪里來的?</p>
<p>TSE:大多是從中國廣東省廣州來的。</p>
<p>問:你能否再談一下你長大,上高中,後來上大學,去哪個大學,以及你是怎樣做那些決定的?</p>
<p>TSE:我去了一所本地的學校,小學畢業之後,我去了附近的高中,布魯克林區學院的Midwood高中。那裏有更多的亞洲人,但不是新的、第一代華人移民。我是說,那裏肯定有家裏很富有的華人,我記得有一些孩子的家裏是醫生,非常有錢,也許是美國第二代或第三代移民。我只是記得那裏沒有ESL [English as Second Language]課程,但我記得我姐姐的年級裏有一個新移民,她是越南人。我姐姐差不多成爲那個女孩子的代理父母,因爲我們知道新移民的感受。我記得我姐姐把她的朋友帶到家裏一起做功課,呆在一起。我記得我姐姐差不多擔當起這個新來者的老師加朋友的角色。我想學校裏大多數的亞裔是第二代或第三代移民。後來我決定步我姐姐的後塵去紐約大學,因爲她先去的那裏。<br>
當然,紐約大學有從全世界各個地方來的人,這是吸引我的原因之一。我想找一間大家都有類似經歷的學校,同時那裏的人都有豐富的經驗,我想認識更多各種各樣的人。當然,人人都知道紐約大學的學生來自世界各地,有很多各種各樣的背景。我在那裏有很好的經歷。</p>
<p>問:你在高中和在大學的朋友有什麽不同嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:實際上,這很有意思。我是在大學後才第一次認識講中文的朋友的,他們是新移民,也許是第一代美籍華人,我在學校講中文。這真的是第一次,我在那裏認識了講中文的中國朋友。</p>
<p>問:你是怎樣決定成爲一名教師的呢?你能談一下整個經過嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:實際上,在高中的時候,在暑假有一個叫SYEP [Summer Youth Employment Program]的專案,政府資助學生在市里各個地方工作,我想贊助這個專案的公司或組織在唐人街。所以,在我14歲的時候,我就開始在唐人街工作。我從14歲到18歲上高中的時候,都在唐人街實習和做暑期工。我每個夏天都在Chinese-American Planning Council打工,我做指導員。這些都是很高的頭銜,但我當時只有14歲,應該算是指導員助理。還有其他人管我們。我們的職責不多,像是和---,差不多是看孩子,看管那些比我們小的孩子。因此,從我14歲起,我的大部分工作都是在華人社區。在高中最後一年,我記得我的專案是帶一些比我稍微大一點的孩子,他們也是高中生,和我差不多一樣大。他們大多數在唐人街上學,但不講英文。於是我就開始做輔導,教些其他水平的學生。自那開始,我對教育産生興趣。在上大學的時候,我就想這是我要學的。<br>
後來到紐約大學時,我繼續在Chinese-American Planning Council工作,在不同的領域做些其他事務,我在那個公司做了很長一段時間。</p>
<p>問:你說你大學畢業之後就開始教書了?是---</p>
<p>TSE:是的,實際上,在大學我的專業是基礎教育。我在幼稚園教了六個月,在布魯克林區,但我不喜歡那裏。那裏的孩子很累人,我正好有機會休假,便又回到CPC,在那裏全職工作了一年。在那時,我決定重返學校,攻讀作爲第二語言英語教學的碩士學位。後來,我在紐約大學找到一份工作。這樣,我在紐約大學全職工作,教一個寫作班,並開始讀我的碩士學位。一年之後,我來這個學校面試,然後便在這裏工作。現在差不多十年已經過去了,我還在這裏,仍然喜歡在這裏做。我以前也講過,這裏的學生---,學校裏大約百分之七十是移民來的學生。在那百分之七十的學生裏,又有百分之六十、六十五是亞裔移民,亞洲,中國的移民。因此,就好像轉了一圈又重新回到我的背景。</p>
<p>問:你能稍微講一下你教的班,孩子們的問題,以及你是如何解決他們這些問題的?</p>
<p>TSE:這個學校有一個非常好的ESL課程。我們有各種程度的ESL班,從初學者開始。在10年前,我們接收一些只有最基礎英語水平的學生。我記得教些非常基礎的內容,比如ABC字母表。當然,現在因爲有English Regents,我們不再招收那類學生。但我們仍然有初級水平的學生,屬於ESL 1,2。我們也有中級,3和4。5和6、7是過渡型英語課,從英文作爲第二語言進入主流英語課程。我教過所有水平的ESL課程,從初級到中高級。我很吃驚看到在非常短的時間裏,一些學生在這個國家只待了三個月,從三個月到兩年,他們要掌握很多技能,很多語言技能。最終的目標是,對於他們來講,學習足夠的英語通過English Regents,<br>
這是紐約市規定的獲得高中畢業證書的要求。這是一個很大的挑戰,非常大的挑戰,他們對此也有很大壓力。他們能在兩年內學習這麽多的知識簡直令人難以置信。想想看,如果我們要去另外一個國家,我們能在兩年內學會一種語言嗎?簡直難以置信。</p>
<p>問:在任教的十年裏,據你觀察,這裏的學生情況有什麽變化?他們從哪里來?他們的英文水平如何?在過去十年裏,你覺得他們有什麽樣的問題?</p>
<p>TSE:我剛才也講過,十年以前我們招收只有基礎水平的學生,我們從字母表開始教起。同時,我們也有英語文法非常好的學生,十年前大多數學生來自香港。如果你看一下現在學生的構成,我們大多數的學生來自中國偏僻的城鎮或農村,特別是福建省。我想我們現在80%的學生來自福建。在那些學生裏,差不多一半沒有上到六年級。這是另外一個挑戰,因爲他們連自己的語言都掌握不好,所以他們很難把他們的語言知識轉移到第二或第三語言上。</p>
<p>問:他們的父母通常在這裏做這麽?</p>
<p>TSE:我想他們父母差不多百分之九十九是藍領工人,在工廠工作,餐館。有一少部分學生的父母是搞技術的,醫生,或許是中國的護士。但當然,他們來這裏之後不得不找工作維持生活,因此,他們也算是藍領階級。</p>
<p>問:你認爲他們在這裏有什麽困難?這些和你當時來的時候所遇到的困難有什麽不同?</p>
<p>TSE:他們的困難?</p>
<p>
問:是的。</p>
<p>TSE:好的。有趣的是,因爲現在回想起當年我們小的時候很多東西我們都沒有,我們沒有玩具娃娃,我們沒有錢買一些東西。我的衣服都是舊的,因爲我有兩個姐姐。當我跟學生講起這個的時候,他們都覺得不可思議。你爲什麽不想多要一些?你的父母不給你買東西嗎?所以,實際上,我覺得現在很多學生的生活要比我當時好,或至少一樣。我覺得你必須要縱向衡量,在一些特定時期,你並不太想你沒有的東西,因爲你沒有。但是如果你以前有過,後來突然間沒有了,你就會開始對比,覺得,啊,天哪,這是怎麽回事?爲什麽我們的生活越來越糟?或者,我們到底怎麽了?因此,我認爲對於大多數學生,因爲他們以前的生活不好。至少好幾家人都跟我講過,在中國的時候,他們的父母都不工作,只是待在家裏,日子一天天過去。他們非常感激能夠來這裏,他們不關心他們穿的衣服。他們覺得教育的確是最重要的事情。</p>
<p>問:很有趣。我想我們可以談一下---,應該開始談一下9/11,你們離那個地區非常近。我想先談一下那天,你們都在哪里。如果大家都在這裏,那麽談一下後來發生的情況,學校是如何處理,怎樣安排學生的,是否後來因此引起學校的一系列的變化,以及是否對學生或教師進行了心理輔導?我想我們都知道那天發生了什麽,你們和學生在哪里。</p>
<p>TSE:兩年前---,去年,我們舉辦了一次寫作,差不多是紀念那一天。那天我的一個學生交給我這篇文章。當時他在從中國飛到美國的路上,飛機停飛。因爲這裏發生的事情,他們不得不改航線在加州降落。他記得,倒不是非常害怕,而是有一種不知道你的命運的感覺。在文章裏,他寫到他們被困在那個地方,沒有人知道要發生什麽事情。滿腦子胡思亂想,不知道要飛回中國<br>
還是繼續飛往目的地。因此,回想起來覺得很有趣,那些在那期間來這裏的人也許對所發生的事情有獨特的記憶。對於我們,在那天早晨,在一間教室裏你能看到煙,看到姊妹塔中的一座已經不見了。我們記得,學校想把全部學生疏散到禮堂,這樣人們不至於發瘋或恐慌。我們只是在等消息,不知道發生了什麽事情,是一架飛機還是其他什麽東西。當然,當我們知道的時候,我們不能離開學校,地鐵也停了,因此那天晚上我們想在學校野營。學生們都---,我們全都被震驚了。但我們沒有,學校裏大多數人都不認識大廈裏的人。因此我想---,如此震驚以至於我們都沒有想現實中發生了什麽事情。我們都傻了,課也不上了。我們都坐在那裏等待。學生們,沒有人講話。他們想繼續當天的事情,但不知道該說些什麽。的確是很艱難的一天---</p>
<p>問:你是說大多數孩子都不在這裏住嗎?他們不能走路回家,或者---</p>
<p>TSE:有些學生能夠回家,他們家就在附近,但剩下的學生只好等著。我們打開了所有的電視,只是等消息說地鐵開通,我們要不要讓學生在3點後離開。</p>
<p>問:那天之後,那個星期還有沒有開課?班裏,或者學校怎樣了?</p>
<p>TSE:學校讓我們盡可能地繼續,但是當然,當你回家後意識到所發生的事情。幾天之後,過了兩三天,你確實意識到現實發生的事情,你的確很難再繼續下去。我們那時有一個社工,她的確有到處走動和每一個班裏的學生談話。我們感謝她和學生們談一些老師不方便談或不知道如何談的話題。的確很困難,因爲你對所發生的事情有自己的想法,而且我們學校也有一些穆斯林學生。</p>
<p>
問:他們是如何經歷9/11,或者他們在9/11之後的感受如何?</p>
<p>TSE:實際上,他們不談這個。我的意思是說,後來,一年之後,因爲我們聽到人們有些仇恨,以及他們鄰近所發生的事情。但在那個時候,我想我們都嚇壞了。沒有責備,沒有對他們的仇恨,我們試圖保持低調,只是想度過那段時間。</p>
<p>問:他們有在附近談論發生的事情嗎?他們是怎樣講他們的經歷的?</p>
<p>TSE:他們只是---,從我們在報紙上看到的,他們都在躲避,他們沒有太---,我想他們---,這所學校很安全,所以我們非常想---,我的意思是說大多數學生都彼此認識。並不是我們的學生在指責其他學生。但當他們回到家裏後,我想他們有不同的經歷,只是沒有在學校裏講。後來他們講了一些出來。特別是一年後,大家知道了一些小事情。他們第一年沒有怎麽講,關於他們個人的感情,以及他們後來遇到的事情。</p>
<p>問:那一年之後是怎樣知道的呢?是不是一年內都有持續的心理輔導,是怎麽回事?</p>
<p>TSE:實際上,只有一部分學生一對一地接受社工的心理輔導,一些教師是向整個班講的。在第二或第三天,我們有坐在一圈發言。我想那些學生實在不想談這些。我不知道是否是因爲年齡差距,還是他們認爲這與他們無關。但他們就是不想談論這個,只是想忘掉它,說,Mei Ling老師,我們能不能繼續做以前做的事情?好像就是想忘掉它,繼續新的生活。</p>
<p>問:他們是不是一直都是那樣?他們總是不想談論這個,還是---</p>
<p>
TSE:第二年我們舉行了一次紀念活動。每年9/11,學校都要搞一次紀念活動。我們讓學生在牆壁上寫些東西,他們的文章,他們的感受,那天發生的事情。只是在那天,只是在那一天,過了之後,他們又不想談了。</p>
<p>問:你怎麽樣,你那天的經歷如何?你感受如何,或反應如何,或---</p>
<p>TSE:實際上,我姐姐曾在那幢樓裏工作過,她們公司在幾個月之前搬出那幢樓。因此,除了我姐姐之前已經搬走以外,我本人不認識在那裏工作的人。因此,我不是很擔心。但我記得就好像是一團糟,你打電話給所有你認識的人,確信他們都沒事。但對於其他人還是很難熬,你整天對著電視聽新聞。</p>
<p>問:你的學生有沒有受影響,比如他們的父母失去了工作等?</p>
<p>TSE:我知道當時大家都被動員起來,幫助學生填表格,向FEMA [聯邦緊急事件管理處]申請補助。很多學生擔心他們的父母失去這裏的工作。甚至那些不在唐人街這裏住的學生,他們的父母在這裏工作。因此,一些社工幫助那些失去工作的家長申請補助,幫助他們申請經濟資助。</p>
<p>問:都有一些什麽樣的援助專案?因爲我不太清楚有什麽樣的援助專案。</p>
<p>TSE:有FEMA專案。我們大家都知道有,因此我們叫學生去那裏拿表格。然後他們回來叫我們幫他們填。我的一個朋友的兒子正好在那個辦公室工作,這樣我在那裏也算是有一些熟人,從他們那裏拿了一些表格。我有一個---,他們實際上有---,他們---,我是說那個表格有中文的,所以填寫並不太困難,<br>
但主要是讓人們去那裏排隊,跟他們講去那裏獲得別人的幫助沒事。</p>
<p>問:人們都不想去嗎?獲得幫助,去尋求幫助?</p>
<p>TSE:我想他們最後都很感激,學生們很感激。我覺得起初他們都不相信美國會有這樣的事情,他們能得到這些幫助。但是,他們都有跟父母講,這樣一來一去,家長們都知道了,他們得到了幫助,一些學生得到他們需要的幫助。</p>
<p>問:誰有資格申請,以及如何申請---</p>
<p>TSE:在我們學校,有一段時間所有的學生都有免費午餐,因此可以說百分之九十九點九的學生都有份。</p>
<p>問:吃免費午餐?</p>
<p>TSE:是的。還包括其他一些專案。</p>
<p>問:在9/11之後,還有其他資助專案嗎?學校有沒有申請資助?有沒有其他額外的資助?</p>
<p>TSE:我們學校沒有直接受到事件的影響,但我知道有其他基金。我們確實有拿到---,我想大概一年之後,或在同一年,有不同的組織跟我們聯繫一些事情。我們帶了一百個學生去百老彙看“美人和野獸”。那是其中一個組織辦的,因爲我們學校離出事地點這麽近。我們還有做了其他一些事情。我想,可以遺憾地講,我們通過那個事件得到了一些福利。</p>
<p>問:是哪個機構組織看“美人和野獸”的?</p>
<p>
TSE:我想是百老彙。我不知道是那個組織,百老彙藝術家什麽的。</p>
<p>問:他們給了你們一百張票?</p>
<p>TSE:是的,帶孩子去看演出。</p>
<p>問:那個經歷如何?</p>
<p>TSE:演出棒極了,我是說,每次你帶些孩子去百老彙,演出本身就很有意思。而且,我們有跟他們講這些票是怎麽來的。正是因爲這個原因,他們非常感激,知道別人在關心他們。我也非常感激他們能讓我們帶一百個學生到百老彙免費看演出。這是很難得的。</p>
<p>問:是的,很不錯。在9/11之後,有沒有其他健康方面的影響?世貿大廈的倒塌以及這個地區的污染有沒有造成哮喘病例的增長?</p>
<p>TSE:我們注意到有一些空氣污染。有幾天,尤其在最初的幾個星期,很明顯空氣裏有些東西。我們不能開空調,因爲篩檢程式有可能被污染。我儘量不打開我的窗戶,因爲你不知道---,如果你聽別人談起,你會很害怕,不知道會發生什麽事情。我想大家,尤其是那些孩子,確實無所謂。他們沒有太考慮一些後遺症,不覺得空氣裏有什麽有毒物質。我知道當時學校鬧著買空氣篩檢程式等東西,但因爲缺乏資金,我們沒有做這麽多。我想他們只是清掃了空調裏的篩檢程式,僅此而已。</p>
<p>問:學校是否有很多資金,你說資金不夠?你能再講詳細一些嗎?</p>
<p>
TSE:我們學校的資金問題?</p>
<p>問:是的。</p>
<p>TSE:我想這是上面的問題。這取決於他們要怎樣---,他們要把錢花在哪里。我是說,教師不---,我們的確沒有權力決定如何支配學校的錢,是否應該雇更多的教師或其他輔助人員。我們確實沒有這個權力。如果我們有的話,也許事情會不太一樣。但你在問,我們是否有更多的資助?我想我們學校還算不錯,我是說我們粉筆方面沒有問題,不缺粉筆。但書總是不夠,如果我們要多搞一些書,或使用新教材,我們必須等啊等啊,直到有了錢去買。因此,主要是買教科書的資金比較難解決,[聽不清楚]</p>
<p>問:因此,實際上,我不知道我們是否已經談過這個---</p>
<p>[Lan要求停止錄音,調整一下光線,一個燈滅了]</p>
<p>TSE:燈亮不了了,可能壞了吧。</p>
<p>[一起談話]</p>
<p>TSE:這已經不是第一次了。燈滅了之後不久又會自己亮起來,要不我們就不得不叫管理員來。他們今天不會過來修的。</p>
<p>問:只要不閃就可以。</p>
<p>[錄音暫停]</p>
<p>
問:好的,我們剛才已經告一段落。那我們現在再談一下你的童年,你是否還記得來美國的情景,你父母爲什麽來這裏,以及爲什麽選擇來紐約?再稍微講一下你所記得的小時候在香港的事情。</p>
<p>TSE:當我的學生問我什麽時候移民到這裏的時候,我說是1972年。我們查了一下歷史,那時候尼克松當總統搞軍備。他們想要別的國家的人來這裏移民。移民大門已經打開,那時候我們來這裏也相對容易一些。我們全家是我父親的老闆申請過來的,他和我父親有商業聯繫。他非常慷慨地申請我們過來,實際上還支付了我們來這裏的費用。當時我們家裏有我母親,我父親,我的兩個姐姐和一個弟弟,還有我自己,一共是六個。沒有比這更好的事情了,我父親爲這個人工作了25年,直到他退休,直到那個人去世。接下來講一下爲什麽我父母來這裏。我父母是在臺山出生的,在美國叫Toishan。在戰爭期間,他們移居到香港,我父母是在香港認識的。在他們有機會移民來美國之前,我們四個已經出生了。我們是我們家族裏第一批來這裏的,我母親姐姐一家當時還在香港。我父親那邊的親戚各自去了不同的地方。他們去了荷蘭,我有兩個表兄弟在荷蘭。我們在美國還有一些表兄弟,但都是遠親,我們不常來往。我的父母移居這裏當然是想有更多的機會。他們不想讓我們在香港長大。他們想讓我們來這個新的國家,能有更多的機會。可能還有那些關於美國的說法,金色的門,地板上的黃金。關於美國的傳聞,我父母是信的。他們相信,他們相信美國夢。儘管我父親來的時候不得不做廉價工,我母親來的時候不知道要做什麽,他們決定冒這個風險,一起來這裏。我們也許算是很幸運,能夠一起來這裏。而現在我的一些學生,他們自己在這裏,或一些學生的父母先到這裏。因爲他們沒有---,由於一些手續問題,他們不能全家一起來,只好兩地分居。我想我們很幸運能夠<br>
全家一起過來,當然那個時候有些幫助我們這些新來人的專案。具體的細節我已不記得了,我只是有些印象,當時有很多人幫助我們。我父親的生意,他的老闆,在附近交的朋友,中國家庭,主要是他們幫助我們在這裏安頓下來的,開始新的生活---</p>
<p>問:你父親在香港時做什麽?</p>
<p>TSE:他是船員,當他來這裏時,因爲他在這裏認識一個人。那個人信任他,而且我想非常信任他。當我父親來這裏時就爲他工作。</p>
<p>問:他是船員,那他經常跑船,不在香港?</p>
<p>TSE:是的。</p>
<p>問:你是否還記得小時候在香港的事情?</p>
<p>TSE:我父母在那裏開了一家小糖果店,我們有幾張在香港時的照片。我和兩個姐姐坐在糖果店的門前,是黑白相片,還有在花園,和其他不同的地方。我姐姐記得多一些,因爲她來這裏時已經七歲了。我離開時四歲,所以記得不是很多。只是有一點記憶,一些地方,後來我長大後又回了兩次香港,已經不記得那些地方了。香港是一個很大的城市,就好像紐約市42街,所以對我不算是很大的變化。</p>
<p>問:你能談一下你回去的經歷嗎?回去的情形如何?</p>
<p>TSE:我母親的姐姐仍和她一家住在那裏。我回去的時候有和他們聯繫,他們帶我去了一些地方,但我不記得了。那些地方很獨特。實際上,在我回去之前,我母親已經回去過香港,她老家基本上沒有什麽改變,比如你還能夠找到以前的一些地方,<br>
生活水平仍然很低,但是在城市裏,如果你呆在城市的賓館裏,我想和紐約市沒有什麽區別。是這樣的。</p>
<p>問:你有沒有也去她的老家?</p>
<p>TSE:我不認識那裏的人,我去香港是和朋友一起去的,不是和我母親去的。如果我再回去,和我母親一起去尋根可能會更有意義一些。但我母親的姐姐在那裏,她的女兒和我一樣大,她帶我出去逛。她母親身體不好,所以她不能多跟我講他們那裏的生活。但香港是很現代化的城市,就像紐約一樣。她在市里長大。他們的確沒有移民美國的想法。在97年以前我有回去,我問過她,他們在那裏生活得很開心。他們全部的生活都在那裏。沒有理由離開那裏。他們在那裏有正規的職業,我想他們即使來這裏也是來旅遊。</p>
<p>問:你感覺和她親近嗎,還是說你以前從來沒有見過她,對嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:只是看相片。</p>
<p>問:感覺如何?</p>
<p>TSE:令人吃驚的是,我們很親近。我們像是一家人,儘管我們沒有見過面或講過話,只是通過父母來往信件。我們好像彼此都很瞭解,我們所學的專業,我們的擅長,我們父母對我們的看法,等等。因爲有血緣關係,我們的確很親近,後來也一直有聯繫。</p>
<p>問:她和你一樣大嗎?她在那裏做什麽?</p>
<p>TSE:她是圖形設計師,她姐姐和姐夫有自己的生意,她的另外一個姐姐那時是個年輕的舞蹈演員。[笑] 我想她現在是個家庭主婦,但他們全都有自己的夢想,但都是在香港,沒有任何要離開那裏的想法。</p>
<p>
問:你去那裏感到最驚奇的是什麽?</p>
<p>TSE:和紐約比起來,那裏沒有多大差別。當然語言不同,那裏更多是講廣州話,他們也高興我們跟他們講廣州話。在一些地方,我們也跟他們講英文,這也沒有問題,因爲他們懂英文。</p>
<p>問:你感到你回去最驚奇的是什麽?</p>
<p>TSE:使我最驚奇的是香港並沒有很大不同,如果你到國外旅行,你以爲那裏會很不一樣,但確實沒有什麽不同。這是個很大的城市。我住在市中心的一家賓館。如果你去一些較貧窮的地方,當然那裏的生活是很不同的。那裏有野狗,如果你去墓地,那種傳統風格的墓地,你也許能夠看到一些舊的傳統,但城市裏和紐約沒有太大差別。</p>
<p>問:我想問你是否有回家的感覺?或者你感覺哪里是你的家?你在那裏是否感到像在家裏一樣?</p>
<p>TSE:我是個遊客。我只是去那裏旅遊。我是說,自從我來這裏之後,我一直沒有回去過。如果沒有我姑姑一家在那裏,我不會去看任何人。因爲我這麽長時間都在美國,18歲的時候在法院宣誓入籍。我想我認爲自己是美籍華人。</p>
<p>問:你父母怎麽樣?他們認爲自己是哪里人?</p>
<p>TSE:我覺得對於大多數家庭,如果你在一個地方住了很長時間,即使你不把它看成你的家,如果你在那裏呆了很長時間,他們很難再在其他地方生活。我記得在我們很小的時候,他們說,退休之後,我們要回香港住,要把我們留在這裏。<br>
但我不再聽到他們那麽說了,我想是因爲他們已經習慣了這裏,喜歡在這裏住。他們在這裏有家,有他們的生活。如果再搬到另外一個國家,回香港,或中國,他們需要重新開始,交新的朋友,需要重新安頓下來。這裏一切都很方便。我父母非常傳統。他們沒有美國朋友。基本上,他們生活在自己的圈子裏,非常閉塞。但我認爲他們過得很舒適。他們知道如何坐地鐵去想去的地方,去公園,中央公園,或者布魯克林區植物園。他們知道怎樣去一些地方,他們隨時可以去唐人街,他們現在過得很舒服。我想他們也認爲美國是他們的家。</p>
<p>問:你能否也談一下Lan所講的成爲美國人的過程,其中的困難,在什麽時候你感到---,或者你是否記得一些個別的事件使你覺得自己是屬於這裏的或感覺現在是美國人?或不是?</p>
<p>TSE:“什麽是美國人?”這個問題很有爭議,有很多種解釋。我想最好的回答是當我的學生問我,當然是作爲思考的問題,我們應該怎樣看待自己。如果你要回答這個問題,你要十分小心,因爲你會影響到其他人而引起驚慌,對不對?但我想說,我一直認爲自己是美籍華人。中國人是因爲我的文化背景,我的外表,我成長的方式,我父母向我灌輸的價值觀。但我想我也有美國化的一面,因爲我在這個國家生活,受到其他價值觀,其他行爲,其他文化的影響,從而造就了今天的我。所以,我不能說我只是中國人,因爲你如果生活在中國,你會說你只是中國人,對嗎?並不因爲你在美國生活就是美國人,因爲你有其他歷史的聯繫。所以,我們說美國是一個大熔爐。美國人不僅是一種人,你也不僅是一種人,你總是與另外一個國家或文化有聯繫。因此,我認爲,即使兩代或三代之後,比如我孩子的孩子的孩子,我要教他們做美籍華人。我想要他們認爲自己是美籍華人。</p>
<p>
問:你的學生怎樣對待這個問題?他們渴望成爲美國人嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:他們起初是這樣想。他們很驚奇我講中文,即使我看上去像中國人。慢慢地,他們認爲我是地道的美國人。所以他們認爲我是美國人。只是在我演講之後,或認識我兩三個月之後,他們覺得我在一些方面很中國化,有相似的價值觀,或懂得他們的背景。他們才開始意識到,哦,原來你也是中國人,或者說是美籍華人。</p>
<p>問:你爲什麽說你自己非常中國化,或者你是怎樣知道的呢?</p>
<p>TSE:我不想談典型的美國人是什麽樣子,但你可以觀察在這裏長大的美籍華人的一些行爲,在紐約市里長大的青少年比較能說。不是說我不能說,只是他們的行爲,和他們交的朋友,他們的生活條件,他們的環境,這些對他們個人有很大的影響。他們看的電視節目,他們在一起的朋友,他們讀的書,如果有讀的話。我認爲那些外部因素對他們的影響超過內部因素的影響。他們在表面上更加融入社會,他們更加吸收了一些外表的事物。和我那些只來美國兩年的學生比起來,他們這些年來都是在中國長大,所以還沒有被同化。即使他們不得不做一些事情,但他們沒有完全接受,或是說你沒有必要喜歡它。也許一些事情他們也不理解,不會認爲他們自己也是美國人。</p>
<p>問:你認爲那些在七八十年代在這裏長大的和現在五歲的時候移民到這裏的孩子有什麽不同?在文化上和社交方面有什麽不同?</p>
<p>
TSE:我想先談一下相似之處,因爲正如我先前所講,我跟我的學生講我上學的時候聽不懂教師講課。我記得開始的時候是從ABC學起。而且有年齡差距,我當時只有四歲,他們是十六、七歲,這是相似之處。首要的問題是學英文,聽不懂其他人講話,不理解文化背景,或[聽不清楚]。區別是我當時很小,玩兒也用不著講話,也許能夠在不知不覺中學,那時還沒有這麽正規,那時只有四五歲。現在學生們的情況就不一樣了。那些十三、四歲來美國的學生也許正處在他們生活中的交叉路口。因爲他們已經成年,根據他們不同的英文水平,我認爲我們大多數學生都有一些英文基礎。他們在自己的國家學過英文。因此,他們懂得一些語法規則。有時他們在這裏成功與否取決於他們的英文程度。因爲年齡和高中畢業的壓力,你在這裏能交多少朋友。我想,你在這裏認識的美國朋友會或多或少使你更加融入美國文化。因此,區別在於年齡,我認爲環境也有很大不同。我記得,我們能夠在街上玩兒到很晚。當然,儘管我沒有在很好的地區長大,但也是不錯的地區。我記得有一段時間,我回家必須要有人送,因爲街邊有些閒散的人。當然,這在紐約這算不了什麽,因爲很多人都在街邊閒逛。但對於我父母來說,他們認爲九點以後只有壞人才在街邊閒逛,因此一些特定的時間我們不能出去。但同樣,這是我父母那個年代的事情,他們非常傳統,非常---。因爲他們這裏誰也不認識,他們的保護意識很強,對我們的管教非常嚴格。我想我們的學生現在所受的約束家比較少。他們差不多都是靠自覺。他們要學會自立,他們是很獨立的。也許他們來之前在中國是很獨立的。我們很多的學生以前住校,沒有在家住,他們不得不學做飯,自己打掃。因此他們很幸運,來這裏的時候就已經有這些技能了。因爲他們現在不得不自立,要承擔很多責任,差不多一夜之間就變成熟了。沒有父母的幫助和建議,他們不得不自己摸索學習所有的事情。</p>
<p>
問:你說你成長的時候不如這些學生獨立?</p>
<p>TSE:是的,沒錯。</p>
<p>問:你是否有過一段叛逆時期,想交一些家長管得不嚴的朋友,想和那些人一樣?</p>
<p>TSE:我覺得我不太像那些在學校裏很活躍的朋友,但是我姐姐非常反叛。我記得她兩次離家出走,我們在一個美國男孩家裏找到她,他們只是朋友。後來,幾年以後,我們也認識那個人,他們只是朋友。那是在初中的時候,她差不多有12或13歲。我父母不讓她做一些事情,大概是不能太晚回家,她想在外面呆更晚,或想去晚會,或做她想做的事情。她是很反叛的一個。她離家出走,或很晚回家,故意不和我一起回家之類的事情。只是想告訴我父母,嗨,我不想遵循你們的規則。我是好孩子。我基本上都聽我父母的話。我在學校成績不錯,我努力學習。我讀書。書籍確實是我的好朋友。我讀了很多書。我聽我父母的話。</p>
<p>問:你還有個弟弟。</p>
<p>TSE:我有個弟弟。</p>
<p>問:他反叛嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:沒有。我覺得我們很閉塞。我們一家在一起做事情,比如星期六我們一起打球。我們一起外出,在一起。因爲我的父母那時也沒有很多朋友,因此我們總是在一起。我父母想找些事情讓我們一起做,我們成爲了朋友,彼此做伴。</p>
<p>
問:你的妹妹現在怎麽樣了?</p>
<p>TSE:我的弟弟?</p>
<p>問:那個反叛的姐姐。</p>
<p>TSE:她結婚了。她在皇后區住,在一家律師樓工作。我的大姐也是教師。她在Harlem教書。她教小學。</p>
<p>問:你的弟弟呢?</p>
<p>TSE:我的弟弟現在沒有工作。他是搞電腦的,他很難找到一個好公司,做他感興趣的事情。</p>
<p>問:我想,你能否---。我不知道你是否有其他什麽關於來這裏的困難要講,在你上高中的時候,你遇到的融入社會的各種各樣的困難?</p>
<p>TSE:我認爲,作爲在這裏長大的第一代移民,我父母對我生活的影響很大,那些對美國青少年重要的事情對我們沒有那麽重要,去舞會或---。我有去畢業典禮,但沒有去舞會。那些事情對我不太重要,還有在一起閒逛,去別人家裏睡覺,那些典型美國學生做的事情。周末在一起閒逛對我確實不是那麽重要。我想這也許是因爲我父母的教育方式,我是在我父母眼皮底下長大的,我覺得那段時期很特殊。我不知道該怎麽講。</p>
<p>問:你現在不這麽認爲嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:是的。</p>
<p>
問:在哪些方面?</p>
<p>TSE:我想我是成長在很有凝聚力的家庭裏的。我想對於現在的學生,即使他們認爲家庭很重要,很多學生還是和父母住在家裏,但其他的一些孩子是家裏是單親父母,那肯定會影響他們的思維方式和生活方式。</p>
<p>問:你認爲會對他們有什麽樣的影響?</p>
<p>TSE:比如要瞭解他們自己是誰。你可以從他們的穿著看出來,他們去一些特定的地方買東西。他們只來到這裏六個月,但知道去什麽地方買衣服。或者他們穿特定的衣服,因爲他們想融入。他們從來沒有穿過這些,現在他們自己一個人,或有單親父母,他們想要---。他們也許能夠說服單親父母給他們買些東西,因爲只有那個單親父母才能給他們買。我們很多學生也有工作。他們做些半職工作,在麵包房工作,或當服務員,做零工。這樣他們會有一點零錢。學校是第二學習場所,即是有年齡大一些的學生。我們一些學生高中畢業,很少一部分,差不多百分之二,實際上在中國高中畢業,準備上大學。但因爲他們想在這裏獲得高中畢業證書,同時也提高他們的英文,他們來到這個學校。因此,他們的目標有一些不同。我認爲這裏的學生比其他學生成熟一些,因爲他們的年齡,以及他們很多都是自己一個人在這裏。他們住在這裏,他們不得不維持自己的生活。他們有不同的想法和生活目標。</p>
<p>問:你認爲他們對自己的看法同你在他們的那個年齡有何不同,因爲你談到他們比較看重服裝和時髦。</p>
<p>TSE:並非所有的,只是一部分。在這個學校有一部分學生是從香港來的,他們都很時髦。你能看出來。當你在樓道裏走的時候,如果你不認識他們,你會知道他們是從香港來的。只是看他們的穿著,他們的頭型,或走路的樣子。當然,從他們講廣州話也可以看出來。他們的個性也有些不同。他們的褲子垂到屁股上。他們想非常美國化。<br>
他們穿特定的體恤衫,Stussy,這是新出來的十分流行的牌子。他們花很多錢買首飾。他們戴耳環。他們戴項鏈。他們同那些來自中國的學生截然不同。那些學生的父母成長在中國很傳統的、很小的地方,也許是農村,鄉村地區。他們的生活是很不同的。</p>
<p>問:這些不同的學生在學校相處得怎麽樣?</p>
<p>TSE:就好像在高中,在我那個時候,學校裏有不同的學生,不同的派系,不同團體混在一起,這裏也同樣。在同一地方長大的人在一起。或者是因爲語言,或極少時候是因爲個性。這裏有香港幫,講廣州話幫,福建幫。一些人很聰明,喜歡學習,不管是從哪里來的,他們總是在一起。有些人喜歡講英語,找其他有類似的興趣的做朋友。因此,和高中沒有什麽兩樣。但是沒有喜好運動的。我沒有看到中國的運動員。這是這裏缺少的一個團體。和其他成長中的青少年一樣,他們找有共同興趣或者背景的人做朋友,所以沒有太大的不同。</p>
<p>問:在你長大的時候,你說---,你是不是覺得自己是高中裏唯一的中國人很奇怪?</p>
<p>TSE:我沒有說我是唯一的中國人。我是說我是---,那裏差不多有一、兩個中國移民家庭的孩子。對於其他亞裔,我不認爲他們是中國人。他們更像美國人,因爲他們不講中文。即使他們講中文,基本上,他們的舉止也不一樣。他們所有的朋友都是美國人,在學校很活躍的學生,那種青少年的生活。他們舉止不同。他們屬於不同的團體,不同的社會團體。</p>
<p>問:那你沒有---,你和其他人沒有太多來往嗎---</p>
<p>TSE:我有。有一個女孩子是我的朋友,但只是一般的朋友。因爲我們在同一個班,有同樣的---,我想不應該算是作業,我們一起做作業,<br>
我們談一些班裏的事情。但下了課之後,我們很少在一起吃午餐。</p>
<p>問:你父母對你談戀愛等持什麽態度?</p>
<p>TSE:他們的態度是---,我們不得不秘密約會,偷偷地喜歡別人,秘密地和朋友出去。一切都是秘密的,因爲我們的父母從不談這個問題。你可以大學畢業後結婚等。從某種意義上來講,他們很開放,讓我們自己選擇。另一方面,我想他們不想讓我們談戀愛,所以他們從不談論這個問題。我想現在的孩子更加複雜,因爲他們十六、七歲就開始拍拖。即使他們沒有做過,他們也知道。他們看到自己的朋友懷孕,流産,或離婚。不同的社會問題迫使他們接受這些想法。他們比我考慮的更多。</p>
<p>問:那你的父母從未談論過這些事情嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:他們從來不談論這些,即使我們試圖談這個話題。我姐姐很小的時候有一個男朋友,我想是高中第一年,不是她離家出走去的那個,不是她離開家投奔的那個。但是我父母說,你不能和不是中國人的男孩子拍拖,更何況結婚。但是,你不能不和一個不是中國人的男孩子拍拖是因爲你可能---,好像是說你可能和他結婚。所以,我和我另外的姐姐只好私下拍拖。</p>
<p>問:你是否和中國人拍拖?</p>
<p>TSE:開始時候是的。但後來在大學,我和其他種族人拍拖。我是說,我父母從來不知道。他們會反對的。</p>
<p>問:他們現在的態度如何?</p>
<p>
TSE:他們現在變得更加靈活。他們只是想---,我姐姐的確嫁給了一個越南華僑,他們很高興。但我想他們對婚姻的看法是---,他們也許更加喜歡---,我還是單身,但如果---,他們還是想讓我嫁給一個美籍華人,而不是其他什麽人。但他們知道我在和一個白人談戀愛。他們沒有說什麽。他們---,他們沒有說什麽。他們沒有說,“好極了!”但他們也沒有說,“啊,不行,你不能這樣做。”他們沒有那樣講,他們沒有反對。我想有可能是因爲他們自己已習慣聽到各種各樣的事情,或者他們變得對一些價值觀無所謂---。很多事情對於他們來講並不再是黑與白。我想他們起初是很袒護我,因爲一切對於他們都是很新鮮的。他們確實是想保護我們。他們想自己摸索。</p>
<p>[第一盤第一面結束;第一盤第二面開始]</p>
<p>問:我想再談一下拍拖的問題。你的另外一個姐姐和你弟弟怎麽樣?他們結婚了嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:沒有,他們還是單身。但基本上,他們都和中國人在一起,我想他們基本上和中國人拍拖。</p>
<p>問:他們是否覺得那樣更好,還是---</p>
<p>TSE:我不過問他們這方面的事情。對於我自己,我想這取決於對方,以及你交往的圈子。因此,如果他們大多數的朋友是中國人,他們可能---這是他們社交的圈子。</p>
<p>問:那你呢?你覺得和美籍華人拍拖心裏會感覺舒服一些嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:這不是舒服不舒服的問題。我想這是是否方便的問題,比如你想去某個地方---。因爲我講廣州話,我約會的一些中國人講得不好,我經常取笑他們。有時和他們交流很有意思,儘管他們講不流利。你講一些東西,就會鬧些笑話出來。你想講些不想讓別人聽到的話就很方便。<br>
好像是秘密的語言,或共同的東西。就是很有意思。</p>
<p>問:你覺得和講廣州話的人交流要比講英文容易嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:如果他們的背景,他們成長的環境和我相似,我想立刻就會有感覺,但也並非如此。有其他重要的事情,你的價值觀和相互是否吸引。</p>
<p>問:你覺得你同華人社區,唐人街,或者你住的地方,是否很密切?</p>
<p>TSE:我現在住的地方是另外一個日益擴大的唐人街,因此覺得像是在唐人街。因爲到處都有中國餐館,中國人的洗衣店,中國超級商場,中國雜貨店,什麽都有。實際上,就是這近五年才有的。我一輩子都住在那裏,但實際上那個社區在不斷擴大。有更多的華人搬過來,他們跟我講同樣的語言。我有點不願講這些,但我還是說吧。我想搬到其他中國人少的地方住,因爲我想找一個安靜一些的地方。倒不是說我想遠離華人,但我想我搬到這個地方的原因之一就是因爲這裏很安靜。有時你如果想要---,下了班之後,你就是想要遠離你的工作,而我一直都在唐人街上班,離這裏很近,Lower East Side。我在紐約大學讀書,離唐人街也很近。大多時候,我的社會活動都是在這個地區,所以很方便,在這裏住很舒服。同時,當你長大的時候,你意識到你可以去其他地方玩兒,認識其他人,面對其他的挑戰,其他你想認識的人,在其他社區做的事情。我想在這個社區工作,幫助這個社區發展。但同時,我有我的美國夢,要真正意識到美國並不僅是唐人街,並不只是這塊地方。你想---,我想要我的學生也懂得這一點,這樣他們總能記住。我經常和我的朋友開玩笑,跟他們講,我們來唐人街吃飯,因爲這裏的價錢便宜,買蔬菜,然後回家。但在某種程度上這是事實。<br>
我們想和我們中國人的根有聯繫。但在另一方面,我們想融入美國主流社會,享受和發掘生活裏的其他事情。</p>
<p>問:你是如何有那種想法的?</p>
<p>TSE:我想大概是受朋友影響。如果你想去餐館,你不會去在你家周圍的餐館,這樣可以有些新的嘗試。就像我第一次去攀岩,總是在想,我下一步還要做些什麽?你是在向外伸展。一旦你伸展到了,你想做更多的事情,好像邁出了你的圈子,你的小盒子。我認爲這也是很重要的。如果你總是生活在你的圈子裏,你不會有發展,你必須要對比。在你探詢人生的時候,你要看到你整個世界中其他的東西。</p>
<p>問:你家附近在很多華人搬來之前是什麽樣的?大概在5年或10年以前?</p>
<p>TSE:有一些華人住在那裏,但在我的那個街區有兩個華人家庭。我想那個地區大多是猶太人,俄國人。有一些是義大利人。</p>
<p>問:現在的那些居民是剛剛來到美國的,還是來這裏已經有一段時間了?</p>
<p>TSE:我想都有吧。有些是在這裏開餐館的生意人,有些是新移民。我的一些學生也住在鄰近,所以我知道也有新來的移民。因此,兩者都有。能有這種混合、而非單一的社會群體倒是件好事情。</p>
<p>問:你覺得你們那一代老移民和這些新移民之間的交流怎麽樣?</p>
<p>TSE:我想我們---,我只能談我自己的觀點,這並不代表其他人。我想還是有緊密的聯繫的,因爲我仍然講他們的語言。我知道所發生的事情,<br>
你聽到一些問題或---,他們面臨的挑戰,也會使你聯想起一些類似的經歷。因此,你和他們並不是那麽格格不入。但我想,對於我們大多數人來講,當我們年紀大的時候,比如我姐姐和我,我們對新移民更有同情心。儘管我們開玩笑,我們有相同的處境,我們穿舊衣服。或有的時候我們父母沒有給我們買禮物,我們沒有禮物,我們要給父母買聖誕禮物,這類事情。現在的學生和新移民[聽不清楚]。但同時,因爲我們的水平不同,我們的生活方式不同,我們在賺錢,我們是所謂的“已經先到的”。你確實感到對那些面臨挑戰的人的同情。我是說我肯定那些人在他們十幾歲成長的時候也有各種不同的挑戰。也許他們腦子裏考慮很多事情,只不過沒有講出來,但都有很多相似之處。我想沒有太多的區別。當然區別一定會有,但我想對於那些從一個地方搬到另一個地方的人來講,區別不是很大。</p>
<p>問:你談到沒有新衣服和聖誕禮物。你是否還記得你長大的時候其他的事情---,關於移民到這裏的?</p>
<p>TSE:我想是吃的,食物。我小時候並不經常吃麥當勞,但我記得去吃麥當勞算是很不錯的了,我想這是很多孩子都喜歡的一件事情。也許他們腦子裏就是有這種想法,喔,去麥當勞一定是因爲你過生日。因此---,在你十幾歲的時候,你喜歡吃漢堡包和炸薯條,而不是米飯,[笑] 蔬菜和魚。但我父母經常在家裏做中餐。我們從來沒有吃過其他食物。他們還有給我們做很奇怪的食物,我們甚至今天還喜歡吃。如果我去一家餐館點菜,我會挑一些特定的菜,比如苦瓜。別人會問,“你爲什麽吃那個?真噁心!太苦了!”或一些美國人不吃的東西。所以在某種意義上很奇怪。但這完全是因爲我們成長的環境。我有一些朋友,他們的孩子在美國出生。他們的食譜完全不同。他們能每天都吃漢堡包,可以不吃米飯。我想我的飲食包括許多---,至少百分之五十是米飯。對於我母親那一代人,他們一天不吃米飯都不行。他們覺得,<br>
如果他們今天沒有吃米飯,明天就會死的。[笑] 因此,他們的想法,他們的飲食習慣是非常不一樣的。</p>
<p>問:你是否記得你小的時候,如果不去麥當勞,還有什麽食物算是比較隆重的?你小時候有什麽比較特殊的場合嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:去中餐館吃中餐[笑]是一個特殊的場合。真的。我們不經常出去。我們沒有錢,我們必須存錢付房租等。我們沒有錢買很多東西。</p>
<p>問:什麽是你的---,你們是住公寓樓還是房子,或者---</p>
<p>TSE:我們在一間公寓樓住了至少15年。在高中的時候,我們搬家了,我父母搬到房子裏住了。我們用了家裏所有的積蓄。我所講的家裏所有的積蓄包括孩子們的積蓄,比如我們打暑期工掙的錢,還有過年親戚朋友給的錢。所有的錢都花在買房子上的。當然,這是每個中國人的夢想,有自己的土地和自己的房子。六萬八千美元在今天算不了什麽,但在80年代,對於我父母來講是很大一筆錢了。因此,我們那時申請了抵押貸款,我們夏天打工掙來的錢也用來付房款。</p>
<p>問:那個房子怎麽樣?</p>
<p>TSE:很佛教化。我父母現在還在那裏住。下面是一家商店,他們很有經濟頭腦,把一樓租了出去。他們要還抵押,所以在二樓住。最近,他們重新裝修了整個地方。自從我們搬進來之後,他們第一次把牆皮剝了下來。他們之所以能夠這樣做是因爲孩子們都長大了,他們能夠退休了,現在沒有什麽地方需要用錢了。如果他們想的話,我們每天都能出去吃。但基本上他們在那裏住得很舒服。他們現在生活很好,有地方住,用不著還抵押。他們有社會安全保障,需要一些額外的也可以靠孩子。</p>
<p>
問:那房子---,你們是否都有自己的臥室,房子有多大?或者---</p>
<p>TSE:我想我們住的第一所公寓房間比我們的房子都大。我記得我們房間裏有兩個臥室,但都很大。在70年代,我記得是六十八美元一個月。[笑] 我們的房租最高,六十八美元。我記得我們鄰居的房租是20多塊錢。[笑聲] 非常大的房間,那個公寓實際上已經被拆了。他們在那裏建了一所學校,我記得就是因爲這個我們才搬走的。我們實際上並不想搬,但不搬不行。我們在那裏住得很寬敞。的確是很大的地方。大起居室,兩間大臥室,一個洗手間,大廚房。當我們搬進房子的時候,實際上還沒有我們公寓房間大。但那是我們自己的,能有自己的房子住,用不著擔心被趕走是很重要的。沒有人干涉你在裏面做什麽。</p>
<p>問:那你怎麽---,你有沒有和你的姐姐一起住,或者房子裏---</p>
<p>TSE:你是問格局嗎?那裏實際上有兩間臥室,但因爲我父母住一間臥室,我和我姐姐住另外一間,我弟弟在上大學之前一直在起居室睡。所以,他上大學是好事,否則我都不知道他要住在哪里。我教書以後就自己搬走了,因爲房子太小了。非常小。是這樣子的。</p>
<p>問:那你姐姐也在那裏住嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:是的,整個高中階段我們都在那裏打架。你能想象一個房間裏住三個女孩嗎?上下鋪。我睡上鋪,你睡下鋪。睡一段時間再換床。這並非容易。但如果你就是這個條件,你不會有其他的想法。好像現在,我不會和我姐姐再睡一個房間。你不想和別人住在同一房間。還有,六個人同用一個洗手間。我現在有我自己的洗手間。如果有人進來,我會說,這裏不夠兩個人的地方。因此,還是那句話,如果你以前沒有過,你不覺得失去了什麽,你也不會珍稀它。</p>
<p>問:你是否還記得其他關於在那個房子裏長大的--- </p>
<p>[
討論光線]</p>
<p>問:你是否還記得其他在那裏長大的事情?</p>
<p>TSE:很多記憶。我姐姐是在那裏結的婚,我們鋪了第一張地毯,牆對牆地毯。就好像我們發展得更好後,我們家裏也會有改善的,家裏添了很多東西。我們添的第一個大件就是天花板風扇。的確是很大一件事情。我們這些孩子都有湊錢,買了天花板風扇。[笑] 那是很大的事情。就是這些成長時的回憶,我們能夠做的一些使父母開心、使我們的生活更方便的小事情。這是一些愉快的時刻,比如我們過耶誕節時,我們給自己和父母買很多禮物。[笑] 就是這些小的事情,是很好的回憶。</p>
<p>問:你有沒有其他一些記憶,比如你成長過程中的里程碑?</p>
<p>TSE:在我小時候?</p>
<p>問:在成長的時候,在這個房子裏住,你還記得的事情,好像買天花板風扇這些美好的回憶?</p>
<p>TSE:我得想一會兒。家裏發生了很多事情,好的和壞的。我想我們住房子和住---,可能我們住公寓的時間要比住房子久。所以,我對公寓的記憶要更多一些,我想至少一些特殊的記憶,因爲我是和姐姐一起玩兒的。我們做遊戲,或在地板上扮東西,就是在那個公寓長大的。當我們搬到房子裏住的時候,我們有到外面去。我們上了大學,因此我們做了---,或先是高中。我們在房子外做的事情要比在房子做的事情多。但在小時候,我們大多時候不出去,呆在房間裏。因此是很不一樣的。</p>
<p>問:你的祖父母---,他們還在香港嗎?他們還在世嗎?</p>
<p>
TSE:他們從來沒有到過這個國家。他們仍然在香港,我祖母大約在五年前去世了,她---</p>
<p>問:你有沒有見過她,還是---</p>
<p>TSE:看過相片,通過電話。聽過關於她的一些事情。她是我們家裏最高的。關於她的一些瑣碎的事情,但我從未見過她。</p>
<p>問:她沒有來過。</p>
<p>TSE:是的,她不想來。路途太長,她有家庭---,我是說,她其他的女兒和家人還在那裏,他們照料她。</p>
<p>問:是你母親的母親還是你父親的母親?</p>
<p>TSE:我母親的母親。我父親那邊很分散。他有同父異母的兄弟姐妹。他的童年過得不好。他們一家人不在一起。彼此不太友好。所以,他從不談這些。他在美國的同父異母的兄弟多過在荷蘭的兄弟。我們和比較遠的親戚的聯繫多過和近的親戚的聯繫。</p>
<p>問:“遠”指的是香港還是---</p>
<p>TSE:是荷蘭。</p>
<p>問:你認識他們嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:認識,實際上,他們到美國來了兩次。所以,實際上,我們跟他們比跟住在紐約的親戚還要熟。他們在那邊過得不錯。兩個兒子在荷蘭學醫,是優秀的。尤其對我父母來講,現在我們家裏有兩個醫生,這是很不容易的。可惜他們在荷蘭,<br>
不能夠幫到我們。但的確很高興知道我們都是專業人士,有很大的目標,跟我父母,以及他們的父母比起來---</p>
<p>問:讓我想一下。我們能不能談一下愛國主義,以及你覺得你有多愛美國,尤其是在9/11之後,以及有沒有什麽變化?</p>
<p>TSE:即使在9/11之前,我在18歲申請公民身份的時候,我必須通過所有的測試,面談,以及最後的宣誓。整個的經歷確實觸動了我。後來,我去參加陪審團,我和我的學生分享那些經歷,它意味著什麽---,作爲一個美國人的職責是什麽?這些我都是很重視的。很多人,也許甚至美國人,認爲沒有這個必要,或覺得無所謂。但我是非常認真的,當我被要求做陪審員的時候,我希望自己會被選中,能夠審這個案子,瞭解一下過程。我已被選中了一次,最後兩次沒有抽到。這種經歷的確會使你懂得,你有權決定另外一個人的命運意味著什麽。如此之類的小事情。如果你沒有去,只是學過或聽到過,你會想當然,而不會確切知道這其中的涵義,直到你親自做了,甚至對於我的學生,當他們處在那個位置的時候。你是陪審員,你決定這個人的命運。喔,是政府的授權。你認爲你會在世界上其他地方有這樣的機會嗎?因此,我的確是這麽想的,而且我盡力向我的學生灌輸,就是這種感覺---,不僅僅是責任,而是做的感覺,成爲這種文化的一部分。要成爲有責任感的公民需要做些什麽事情?</p>
<p>問:這同你父母住在這裏的觀點不同吧?</p>
<p>TSE:我想是的。我是說,他們,我是說,我父母是真正的移民,要努力奮鬥養家活口。也許他們的目標,他們的世界跟我們不太一樣。我在成長,想要---,我是說,他們要實現美國夢,但我的美國夢是不同的。</p>
<p>問:那你認爲你愛國嗎?或者你對這個國家的感覺怎麽樣,尤其在9/11之後?</p>
<p>
TSE:你是問我的政治觀點?</p>
<p>問:不是,作爲在這裏生活的公民,你的感覺如何,尤其是看到所發生的事情之後。</p>
<p>TSE:我想很多美國人都提到過,但我也強烈地感到,我們總是覺得自由是想當然的。我覺得我們確實需要重新考慮,認識到很多人爲了我們能在這裏自由地生活而付出了自己的生命,從而我們才能擁有自由,能夠發表自己的言論,在晚上能夠安全地,相對安全地,走在街上。我是說,作爲美國人,我們以爲這些都是理所當然的。我覺得對於那些來到這裏的移民,這裏有很多他們覺得很不可思議的事情---。啊,我們有這個,我們有那個。比如電視機,這裏有這麽多電視機,我們能夠免費去百老彙看演出。所有這些吸引,這些機會在其他地方都是沒有的。我想他們確實非常感激,他們確實能夠看到生活在這個偉大的國家是來之不易的。關於移民經歷,我要講的另外一件事情是,如果你問我的學生,在五年、十年之後,他們會在哪里。一些學生會說,這取決於他們在這裏呆了多長時間,甚至一半以上的學生會說,我會留在這裏。一些學生說他們要回自己的國家,比如一旦他們有機會,在這裏讀完書,拿到文憑之後,他們要回去做些其他的事情。這確實很有趣。</p>
<p>問:是很有趣。你認爲你會繼續在紐約住嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:[笑] 是的,我喜歡紐約。我在布魯克林區長大,但喜歡紐約,我是紐約人。如果我有錢,我要住在紐約市。</p>
<p>問:這不太容易。我想已經差不多了,你還有別的什麽要補充的嗎?</p>
<p>TSE:我已經講了很多。我甚至都不記得講了些什麽。</p>
<p>問:我想可以了。謝謝。感謝你。</p>
<p>採訪完畢</p>
Dublin Core
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Title
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Meiling Tse
911DA Item
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approved
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unknown
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unknown
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unknown
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
K.
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-01-24
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
college student/garment mother
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: It’s January 27, 2004.
We’re sitting in the archives of the Museum of the Chinese in
the Americas again. Can you tell me your full name and your date of
birth?</p>
<p>
K.: My full name is K., and I was born on September 21<sup>st</sup>, 1982.</p>
<p>
Q: Wow, so you’re very
young, so….</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah, I’m pretty
young, yeah.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. K., tell us about
your parents. Were they born in America?</p>
<p>
K.: No, they were—I’m
not sure where they were born, actually. I think they were born in
China, but they lived in Hong Kong, and they immigrated to America,
before I was born, like two years before I was born.</p>
<p>
Q: And what year was that?</p>
<p>
K.: I think it was 1980. I was
born in 1982. [laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: ’82, okay. And why did
they decide to come to New York?</p>
<p>
K.: I’m not sure the
reason why they decided to come to New York, but I think my dad had
relatives here already, that’s why.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you ask them about these
things? Are you curious about what brought your parents to America?
</p>
<p>
K.:
I know my mom came to New York because my dad was here, that’s,
that’s all I know. But, I don’t know, something about
like Asian parents or Chinese parents, you don’t ask them about
these things because they’re not really, they feel really
reluctant, or they always hesitate when you ask them those
questions---different from American families when they, like, lay out
the whole history for you, you know?</p>
<p>
Q: So your dad came to America
first?</p>
<p>
K.: Um, yes.
</p>
<p>
Q: And why did he come
here?<br><br>K.: I think it’s just for a better future, that
kind of thing. Like, back in the days when, you know, China---Oh, I
actually know, he immigrated, he used to live in China in this Canton
city, and because of the Communists, um, like something with the
Red---I don’t know what---</p>
<p>
Q: The Red Guards?</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah, the Red Guard, he
used to be in like a really rich family, but his father owned like a
lot of cigar companies in this city, and because he was so rich, they
like, did something to his dad and so he had to like run to Hong
Kong. And so he can never go back to that city in China because then
they would have got him and put him in the Red Guards, too, and
that’s why he went to Hong Kong and that’s how he met my
mom. And I don’t know why he came to America, though. I think
it’s just to start a new, or get a new life.</p>
<p>
Q: And how do you know that
much? Do you ask them? Or did he----</p>
<p>
K.: I don’t---I recently
found out from my mom, actually, like, I never knew about this until
maybe like two weeks ago.
</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. So, what kind of
relationship do you have with your parents, then?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
K.: Um, a “don’t
ask” relationship. I’m not really close with my dad,
‘cause my mom and dad are divorced, so I don’t really get
to ask him that much. I only see him once in a while. And my mom, we
talk about my mom’s side, but we rarely talk about my dad’s
side. Like, I can’t ask her about my dad’s stuff. So it
was just out of luck that day that she was willing to tell me
something.</p>
<p>
I think my mom married my dad
because she knew that after marrying him, she could come to America,
and she just wanted to, like, live away from her mom, I guess. It was
a really hard life in Hong Kong, and, like, Asian daughters just
always have to listen to their parents, and she was just sick of
that, I guess, and she wanted to have her own life. So she decided to
marry my dad, because she could get like the opportunity to come to
America. [cross talk] ---there was no love or anything in there,
so---</p>
<p>
Q: There’s no love between
your parents?</p>
<p>
K.: That’s what she
says, she’s like, “There’s no love,” like,
“It’s only, I married him because I wanted to come to
America.”</p>
<p>
Q: How old were you when they
got divorced?</p>
<p>
K.: Two years old.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, so you don’t
really know your father very well at all.</p>
<p>
K.: No.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. Well, so your mom came
to America to be with your dad. And you were born in New York City.
</p>
<p>
K.: Yes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: Where in New York City?</p>
<p>
K.: St. Vincent’s, I
think, Hospital. I don’t remember.</p>
<p>
Q: In Chinatown?</p>
<p>
A: Is that in Chinatown? [laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: There is one in Chinatown.</p>
<p>
K.: That’s probably
where I was born.</p>
<p>
Q: And you grew up alone with
your mother? You have siblings?</p>
<p>
K.: I have one sister, but she
lives with my dad, so I grew up pretty much alone with my mom.</p>
<p>
Q: What was that like, being
just the two of you? Did you mother speak English when she came to
America?</p>
<p>
K.: Um, she doesn’t
speak---</p>
<p>
[cross talk about microphone]
<b>EDIT OUT</b></p>
<p>
Q: So you were born in 1982 at
St. Vincent’s. You’re not sure which St. Vincent’s,
maybe the one in Chinatown.</p>
<p>
K.: I think probably the one
in Chinatown, knowing my mom. She lives in, like, the radius of
Chinatown. Never goes out of it.
</p>
<p>
Q:
Why? Did your parents choose to live in Chinatown, or your mother
didn’t speak English? Why?</p>
<p>
K.: She didn’t, she
still doesn’t really speak English. Actually, after September
11<sup>th</sup>, she enrolled in those classes, those English
speaking classes, so now she speaks a little bit. She actually
learned. I mean, back in the days, like I remember when I was really
young, I knew, I know she speaks a little bit of English, but I guess
lack of practice and she didn’t really have any kind of
motivation or, like, she lives in Chinatown, everyone speaks Chinese,
so there’s no way where she can practice her English, and so
she just speaks Chinese all the time, and now she doesn’t
really speak English at all, and so she relies on me or my sister to,
like, bring her around, or, you know, ask for food, order food in
Western restaurants.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you like that role?<br><br>K.:
Um, I mean, I, it’s just I guess a responsibility, but I wish
that she would be a little bit more, like, assimilating with a place
where she lives in. I mean, she’s lived here for more than
twenty years, so why doesn’t she try to just, you know, fit in,
with this place that she lives in. She doesn’t live in Hong
Kong anymore, and Chinatown is so small, so, she can’t live
here all her life, and currently we’re moving to Brooklyn, and
I don’t know what she’s going to do. I mean, sometimes
she’s not even sure of how to take the subway, so, now we have
to take the subway every single day, and we’re living in Bay
Parkway, and there’s not, like Chinatown is just one store
right there, and what is she going to do? I can’t like, you
know, be around her all my life to, you know buy things for her and
daily necessities and that kind of thing, and I’m going to be
going back to school very soon, for months she’s going to be in
this new area, and I don’t know what she’s going to do.</p>
<p>
Q: Why do you think your mother
is like that?</p>
<p>
K.: I’m not sure. I
guess she’s very passive. She likes to just sink in there and
hide away. She’s not the aggressive type. Not someone who likes
to climb up a ladder.
</p>
<p>
Q:
And she never thought of remarrying?</p>
<p>
K.: I think she never thought
of remarrying because of me. And that’s why I, I feel the
responsibility to take care of her.</p>
<p>
Q: What do you mean, because of
you?</p>
<p>
K.: Um, well, when her, when
she got a divorce with my dad, I know that she could have just given
me up. Like, she could have just let my dad have me. My dad wanted to
have both my sister and I, but she just felt, I don’t know, I
felt the responsibility---I don’t know what she felt, actually,
I mean, she just wanted to take care of me, because I was very young,
like I was still pretty much a toddler, I guess. I mean, the divorce
process took a long time, so they officially divorced when I was two
years old, but it started before then, and she wanted to take care of
me, because she never had the chance to, and I know that there’s
like a whole controversy between taking my sister and me. My sister
at that point was, I think, four or five years old, and everyone
urged her to take my sister, because she was older and that means
less years of taking care of, and maybe less years of finding a
babysitter, but she just insisted on taking me, because I was younger
and I never had, like, motherly love, or ever experienced that kind
of----</p>
<p>
Q: And what did your mother do
to support the two of you?</p>
<p>
K.: I’m not sure. She’s
a seamstress, and she gets like, about, less than ten thousand a
year. Like every year we get about nine thousand a year, so we live
on a really cheap basis, like, ever since I was fourteen, I’ve
been working. Like, I have had a part-time job ever since I was
fourteen. And for college, I mean, I’m so poor that I have like
full tuition, like they gave me a full tuition scholarship.</p>
<p>
Q: Where are you going to school
right now?</p>
<p>
K.: Oberlin College. It’s
in Ohio.</p>
<p>
Q:
So ten thousand a year. What year are we talking about? How can a
family survive on ten thousand a year in, in ----</p>
<p>
K.: Nine thousand! It’s
not ten thousand. We never earned over ten thousand.</p>
<p>
Q: Even, like, in 2003? Your mom
only earned that much?</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah, I mean, if she
earned more, it’s only because of this thing, like, I mean, I
don’t know about it, but like it’s something with the
factory, and like how you buy checks or something. It’s a whole
like, conspiracy in there---</p>
<p>
Q: Is she part of the union?
</p>
<p>
K.: Yes---</p>
<p>
Q: ----the garment union?</p>
<p>
K.: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, well, let’s
rewind to your childhood in Chinatown. So, how often did you see your
dad when you were growing up?</p>
<p>
K.: Um, when I was very young,
I think before, before, before like seven years old, I saw him every
single weekend, but after, after a certain age, there was like this
big fight my mom had with my dad. Like my dad suddenly, like, took my
sister and sent her to Florida, and so my mom couldn’t see her
anymore. So she got mad, and she was like, you know, “If you’re
going to do that with my daughter, then you’re not going to get
to see, like, K. anymore.” Like, so, after that I only saw
him about maybe once a year. And now I see him like once, once, for
like half a year. Half a year I see him once.</p>
<p>
Q: Where does he live?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
K.: He lives in Brooklyn.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh. Near where you and your
mother have just moved to?</p>
<p>
K.: I don’t think so.
It’s not near---I’m not sure where he lives actually. I
mean, I have to check up the address. I’m not sure.</p>
<p>
Q: So he didn’t support
you and your mom at all?</p>
<p>
K.: He gave the bare minimum.
But there was this, like a court, like child support money----</p>
<p>
Q: Alimony---</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah. And it was just a
very small amount. It came out to be maybe like three dollars a day.
So that was how much he gave me. But now I’m very thankful of
him actually, because he’s been giving me money for every
semester, so I don’t really have to ask my mom for money, like
I just take the money he gives me to support myself. And I work in
college.</p>
<p>
Q: So that must have been really
tough on your mom, to single-handedly raise you and to work.</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah, it was pretty hard.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you spend a lot of time
with her, or was she always busy working?<br><br>K.: I didn’t
get to spend as much time with her as I wanted to. Like, during the
weekends, she works Monday through Saturday from about eight in the
morning ‘til eight at night. She comes home at like eight
forty-five at night and leaves around eight -thirty in the morning,
nowadays. I mean, it was different back then. But my grandmother came
to America to help her out a little, and my grandmother worked as
well. I’m not sure how much money she earned, but I guess my
grandmother had herself covered, and my mom had us two covered, but
my grandmother used to
take me from
home after school and look after me during the weekends, and my mom
just spent time with me on Sundays, and sometimes at night.</p>
<p>
Q: Did you feel different from
other kids, then? I mean, you didn’t have a father, and you
were, it sounds like, almost pretty poor. Tight. Money was tight.</p>
<p>
A: I felt different. I mean, I
think I was a very greedy and selfish kid. And I never really
understood what was going on in the family. I just saw what other
kids had. And we also had this, these relatives that were very well
off. And every time we went over there for New Year’s, it’s
just, you know, I see their---I see them, and I see myself, and I
just ask why are we so different? Why is this---like why do we have
this kind of like class difference?
</p>
<p>
And, I mean, as I grew older and
I just understood more and things changed then, I just realized that
this is the life I have and I have to deal with it, and if I want to
get myself out of it, just work harder in school and get a better
education, and come out and support myself and my mom.</p>
<p>
Q: So what are you studying now?</p>
<p>
K.: English and Studio Art.</p>
<p>
Q: And how is that going to get
you a better future, do you think?<br><br>K.: Well, for one thing,
I have a college education. I have my diploma, and, you know,
obviously, no matter what I do I’ll get a better job than my
mom. I won’t earn just nine thousand a year. I mean, anywhere
above that will be a better start, you know? I’m planning to do
something in communications. In the field of communications. So, I’m
not sure about my future. We’ll see how that goes.</p>
<p>
Q: Now, did you mom work when
she was in Hong Kong?</p>
<p>
K.: She worked.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: As what?
</p>
<p>
K.: As a seamstress again. I
know, she didn’t really like school, I mean, she had the
opportunity to go to school and get a better education, I guess, but
she never really liked it too much I guess because she came from
China and the people in Hong Kong are really discriminating, even
against their own people, and at first she had an accent, so the
school---the kids in school didn’t really like her as much, and
she was never really good in English, so, like I guess she found it
hard to fit in to the people in school, and so she got out of school
fairly, fairly early and started----like her first job, she told me,
was doing something with flowers, like plastic flowers, like sewing
them together or something, like putting them in strands. I guess a
lot of people did that.
</p>
<p>
Q: How did your mom come to be a
seamstress in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
K.: Well, it was what she did
in Hong Kong. I mean, it was what she does best at. So she came here,
and that was just the only job she looked for, I guess. I always tell
her to try to get out of the field. I mean, I keep telling her, like,
now’s a good chance, like, “you’re changing
factories, you’re going to another factory, why don’t you
do something else, like maybe cleaning, or housecleaning, or
something else that’s not as strenuous, and that doesn’t
have that kind of hours.” But there’s just, there’s
something with like her union, she gets this insurance, like a health
insurance, and she’s just afraid of losing that. And so she
just keeps going back to the same field. Also cause she’s lazy.
I guess she’s----I also think she’s scared of the outside
world, like outside of seamstress. Like, “That’s the only
career I can get, you know, anything else I’m going to probably
be like---” you know, I don’t know, like some people
might like, do something to her.
</p>
<p>
What is she afraid of? You know,
like, try something new---I mean---</p>
<p>
Q: Did you---</p>
<p>
A:---I
can’t talk her out of it.</p>
<p>
Q: As a kid, did you spend time
with her in the factories at all?<br><br>K.: When I was really
young, before my grandmother came, like, you know, I told you, I was
a really bad kid. Back in the days, like, when I was in kindergarten
or day care or whatever, I was very, like I pulled a lot of tantrums,
and the kindergarten teachers or daycare teachers used to like, they
actually gave my mom advice to send me to some shrink or like a child
therapy or something. And my mom was just like---I gave her a lot of
problems, so like it was really hard to find babysitters for me, and
also the baby sitters were all like, some of the babysitters she
found for me were really mean to me as well. Like, they used to abuse
me. And my mom didn’t want---Oh, like, there was one babysitter
who was really good with me, but then, unfortunately she had to
baby-sit her own granddaughter, and her granddaughter used to abuse
me all the time. Like, every time we were together, her granddaughter
used to hit me.</p>
<p>
I don’t remember any of
this, but my mom just said that one time, like, you know, every time
the babysitter turned her down, like, you know, she’d be like,
“what do I do tomorrow, like, which babysitter can I get
tomorrow?”</p>
<p>
And so finally, like, she just
had to go back to her boss and say, “You know, this is not
working out, like, I have to leave early to take care of my daughter,
and you know, no babysitters are willing to take care of her, so
like, you know, I have to take care of her, so either you fire me, or
I have to, you have to give me those hours to take care of my kid.”</p>
<p>
And ever since then, I think,
like sometimes like when she really had too much work to do, she
would bring me to her factory and, I don’t know, put me in the
little box and I could play with something in there. Like, I’d
bring my toys and I played in there. I remember very faintly, ‘cause
it was not a very long period of time. Like I think maybe it was one
or two years that I had to do that. And after I went to first grade,
my grandmother came.</p>
<p>
Q: So, did you travel outside of
Chinatown at all? Did your mother take you to Central Park?
Did you go to other parts of New York much?</p>
<p>
K.: When I lived---when I had
those weekends with my dad, I remember going outside of Chinatown. My
dad knows English, and he speaks it, he speaks it pretty fluently. I
mean, with an accent of course. I mean, I used to go to Coney Island
a lot. I remember that. And we went to see halls sometimes, I mean.
But with my mom, the furthest we went I think would be 34<sup>th</sup>
Street, and maybe Rockefeller Center, like once in a blue moon, but
not really. Like, shopping in 34<sup>th</sup> Street, or SoHo or
Seaport. Or City Hall. But that’s about it.</p>
<p>
I started exploring the rest of
New York like at a really, old age I would say. Like, I mean, not
old, I mean, ‘cause I’m only twenty-one, but like
compared to other kids, I think I started exploring the rest of New
York like just much later than, like, other people my age.
</p>
<p>
Q: And what language do you
speak at home?<br><br>K.: Cantonese.</p>
<p>
Q: So you have no problem
communicating with most people in Chinatown.</p>
<p>
K.: No. I think most people
would say I speak it too well. As an ABC. [American-Born Chinese]</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think so?</p>
<p>
K.: I think so. I went to Hong
Kong like maybe a year ago, I think a year ago, like a summer ago.
And people there just could not believe that I was born and raised in
New York. They were like, “Wow, you have amazing Cantonese,”
like, you know, they couldn’t tell the difference.
</p>
<p>
Q: Are you happy about that?</p>
<p>
K.: Right now I’m pretty
happy about that. Like, after going to college, and, I mean, in the
past I was not happy about it I guess, because I was
different from other Asian American born Chinese. I used to be, they
used to laugh at me a lot, like they used to call me like names, like
I was a FOB [Fresh Off the Boat] or whatever, like “fresh off
the boat,” and, you know, to be called that, as a teenager, is
just one of the worst things to be. Like, you never want to be called
a FOB, and like some of my closest friends used to dis (slang for
disrespect) me about that. And---</p>
<p>
Q: Because you spoke such good
Chinese?</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah, because, because I
was so, I was so fluent in it. And it’s, I mean, it’s
funny because, like they are Chinese too, and to be, to be called
that by your own people is just something that is totally, like, I
don’t think that Westerners would understand that kind of like
discrimination against your own kind of people, because like I guess
it’s just, we’re all in America right now. And, it’s,
we’re all trying to do this melting pot thing, like assimilate
and become more Westernized, and understand more of Western culture,
that most of us, like most of us growing up, like, teenagers growing
up in New York City, we’re just so, like, absorbed into that
kind of lifestyle that we forget our own culture, we forget our own
heritage.</p>
<p>
And until I was in high school,
until I was fortunate enough to have this like Asian and Chinese-
Caucasian---she’s a mix---teacher, like, as an English teacher,
who taught me to appreciate my own heritage, I think I would have
always been discriminating against my own, like, people. I used to
hate being Chinese, like I used to hate being like Chinese-born, and
living in Chinatown. I was never proud of it. And at one point I
tried, I really tried to, like reject it from my own, like, like, I
just rejected it, like my mom used to send me to Chinese school, and
I hated it. I never wanted to learn Chinese or learn how to like
write it or speak it or whatever, and when I----I guess there was at
one point, I tried to like pretend that I didn’t know Chinese
at all, like when I went back to Hong Kong the first time, which was
when I was in third grade, I pretended that I didn’t know it at
all. Like when people spoke to me, I just pretended like, “Oh,
I don’t know what you’re trying to say,” like, I
don’t understand. But ever since going to college, I started to
take a Chinese class, I mean, I wish I had just understood it more
and realized this back in the days because by now I would have been
really good in it. I wouldn’t have to like waste my college
credits, like five credits for one class to do this like at such a
late, later age.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
I mean, if I have kids, I would
want them to speak Chinese too. I would want them to be bilingual. I
mean, understand what I’ve gone through, and, I mean explain it
to them differently, you know. I mean, you can, you can assimilate
into the Western culture, but you also have to know where you’re
from.</p>
<p>
Q: Now, what kind of junior high
and high school did you go to in Chinatown? Was it mostly Asian kids,
or a good mix?</p>
<p>
A: Um, well, in elementary school
I went to PS 2 and like, they used have these, like “smart
classes,” and it’s so funny because the smart classes
would always be, like, almost ninety percent Chinese, and maybe like
five percent white, and the rest was like one African-American and
one Hispanic in there, and it was, it was mostly Chinese. Like, I was
always like separated from other like races, I guess, because, I
don’t know why, I’m not trying to stereotype, but I guess
those Asian kids worked a lot harder than the other, um, like, other
races. And so, I guess it’s also because of the parents, and
how the parents push their kids. And so, like I went to PS 2 and I
went to IS 131, which is, they’re both in Chinatown, and these
two schools, I was mostly surrounded by Chinese students. And then I
went to Environmental Studies, which is a really diverse school. But
even so, I guess because I was shaped by my junior high school, and
by my elementary school, that even going to such a diverse school I
ended up hanging out with mostly Asian or Chinese students.</p>
<p>
Q: And they were, like you,
ABCs, that didn’t speak as good Chinese as you did?</p>
<p>
K.: A lot of them were. Some
of them were born in China, but they immigrated here. And, but they
immigrated at such a young age, so they all spoke English really
well.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think you resented
your mother for kind of keeping you in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
K.: She thinks that. I mean,
sometimes I think about it. Maybe. I mean, what I resent is not that
she kept me in Ch---I mean, I have a lot to appreciate of her. Like,
you know, there are so
many things she
did for me that I have to appreciate, and I can’t blame her for
some of her choices. I mean, if I were in her shoes of course I would
have done things differently, to have made it easier for my, my
children, but she just had so much to, you know, so much to put into
her consideration that I can’t resent her for that stuff. I
can’t resent her for living in Chinatown. I mean, that’s
all she could afford, you know, living here.</p>
<p>
I wish things were done
differently, but I can’t resent her for what she chose to do.</p>
<p>
Q: So it sounds like when you
were younger, you weren’t so thrilled about living here, and
you got picked on a lot by your friends, because of your
Chinese-ness, but now, as you’re older, those things don’t
bother you as much, or----</p>
<p>
K.: No, I’m actually
glad I grew up in Chinatown. I mean, I’m glad I have this
background, I can say I was born and raised in Chinatown, you know,
I, I used to be very, I remember one time I went to London and I told
someone I lived on Pike Street, and I knew they wouldn’t know
where I lived, and, but then they just said, “Chinatown,
right?” and I felt really angry at that person. It’s kind
of like they were condescending to a point, like, you live in the
dumps, the ghetto or whatever. And, I mean, yeah, I do, so like, I
mean, at that point I was really angry, but now I think about it,
like what is there to be, to be not proud of? You know, I lived in
Chinatown, but you know what? I’m having a college education,
I’m getting myself out of this place.</p>
<p>
I mean, you know, it’s
shaped me to be the person I am, so I don’t have anything to
not be proud of, you know? It’s, it’s who I am.</p>
<p>
Q: But you want to leave. If you
had the financial means, you would leave Chinatown. You wouldn’t
live here by choice.</p>
<p>
K.: I would want to live in a
place where, where I can have like a bigger apartment and just, it’s
just Chinatown is like, Yeah, I would want to leave. Simply put, I
want to leave. But, I still want to come back. It’s not a, it’s
not a place---it’s not that I want to forget about this place
totally and erase it from, like my history, it’s just that I
want to leave because, you know, I want
to
live in a better place. Like, and Chinatown doesn’t permit
that, like there’s no like, you know, three bedroom apartment
and you know, like a big apartment or a house that I can have in
Chinatown. They’re all like tenement buildings or little studio
apartments, and it just doesn’t accommodate for what I want to
have in my future.</p>
<p>
Q: So your mother is still
working now, as a seamstress?</p>
<p>
K.: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: And her earnings are still
about the same?<br><br>K.: About the same.<br><br>Q: Do you think
she’ll---what will she do, if she retires?<br><br>K.: When
she retires? I don’t know. I mean, she had some problems with
her knee, and so she’s been asking me, like if I start working
is it okay if she stops working for year or two and then she works
again, like just to, like pass time. I mean, I know she wouldn’t
want to just sit at home and not do anything. So, I mean, I don’t
think she would retire anytime soon. Like, she would want to just
work, but not work as hard----like, work knowing that this isn’t
the only money that we’re going to have.</p>
<p>
Q: And has her work been
effected by September 11<sup>th</sup> ? Because so many factories,
garment factories have closed in Chinatown.</p>
<p>
K.: Yes. Um, after September
11, her factory closed for about two or three weeks. There was, maybe
like a month as she</p>
<p>
Q: Hold on [cross talk about
tape] Has your mom’s work been effected at all by September
11<sup>th</sup>?</p>
<p>
K.: Um, yes. After September
11<sup>th</sup>, her factory closed for about like a month, and so
she
didn’t have any work to do
for that period of time. And we lived really close to the site. We
live on Pike Street and Madison, and, um, we see the bridge and we
used to be able to see, like the Twin Towers, and we had a very nice
skyline actually, but, and so when September 11<sup>th</sup>
happened, my mom actually got to see one of the towers falling down,
and so like it was really bad air. For a period of time, it really,
like, it just smelled really badly. And, she didn’t get to
work, and didn’t, like, there was a period of time when she had
like no income I guess, and so that was pretty hard on her. But then
there was like these recovery funds, I mean, there was some Red Cross
funds or whatever, and if you lived in this area or worked in this
area or qualified for some financial aid, and so she got a lot of
that, which we were very thankful for. We got this purifier, like air
purifier to put in our apartment, and that helped a little, but, I
mean, and a vacuum cleaner, all these little perks that we got
because we lived in the area. But, I mean, these things were also
like necessary as well. I mean, we weren’t going to go out and
buy them for ourselves, but, I mean, since they gave it to us, we
used it.</p>
<p>
Q: So how did your mom find out
about all these relief efforts, and how, if she didn’t speak
English, how did she go and apply for them?
</p>
<p>
K.: Her, um, her coworkers
told her about it. A lot of them, a lot of the stuff was from
coworkers, like the coworkers applied first and told her about it and
urged her to apply for them. And I think there was one fund that I,
like, I heard about it, like her coworkers told her about it, and
then she told me about it, and, but then she said, “I’m
not going to apply for it, I don’t want to apply.” I’m
like, “Why? It’s thousands of dollars, like, why would
you not going to apply?” And so I just got really angry at her,
like she was just, you know, she’s so passive, she doesn’t
want to do these things. And so I got really angry at her, I yelled
at her---I was in college---and like we got into a big fight, and
then later, I came back from college and then I found out she applied
for it. So, I mean, I think it was ‘cause her coworkers just
kept pushing her to apply, and when she went there, like I think
there was some Chinese-speaking people who were, um, who offered
their help, like they were volunteers there who spoke Chinese and who
helped her fill out the applications and stuff.</p>
<p>
Q: So when she wasn’t able
to work, was those relief funds enough for you two to survive on?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
K.: I think so. I think she,
she was really happy when she got the relief funds. Um, she said, I
think she said that they were more than enough. I mean, I’m not
really sure, because I was in college, and she, it’s not, she
wasn’t really supporting me at that point. I think all she had
to pay for was like a very minimal amount of college tuition, and I
was living off of the money my dad gave me, so I’m not really
sure how her money, like, was used.</p>
<p>
Q: So you saw September 11 on
the news, on television.</p>
<p>
K.: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: What did you do, immediately?</p>
<p>
K.: I called home. I called my
mom, but---well, all the phone lines were busy, and, you know, we,
school was cancelled after, like I went to one class, and then the
rest of the day was cancelled, and I just watched television all day,
and tried to call my mom, but the phone lines weren’t working,
so I just kind of like sat there and stuff in front of the
television, and like, looked. Watched it.</p>
<p>
Q: Were you really worried about
her?</p>
<p>
K.: I was really worried. I
was worried that she went to work and couldn’t go back home,
because, like, I, I mean on the news they say, like all these places
were blocked and stuff, and at one point I finally reached her or my
sister reached her, and like somehow, like I went online and my
sister told me that my mom was fine, and that was when I felt, like,
relief, but like----I found out pretty early, I think like maybe four
hours after it happened I found out like she was fine, so I wasn’t
worried after.</p>
<p>
Q: And aside from losing some
work, has your mom’s life been changed in other ways?<br><br>K.:
I think, like, just the economy hasn’t been like, it just
hasn’t been well after September 11,
and
so she’s, the prices of each garment she makes has decreased,
and she hasn’t had, like, like there’s not, she doesn’t
earn as much but then there’s also these relief funds. Like
there’s this 9/11 recovery, like thing, like with going to
school, and this program that like teaches, like, helps garment
workers get a better education or learn English for thirteen weeks,
and learn computer, like how to use a computer. And that has helped
her. I mean, they got paid to go to school, and I know she learned
from it, so----</p>
<p>
Q: But she will continue to be a
seamstress.</p>
<p>
K.: Yes. Which is something I
don’t understand. I mean, every---all this, I actually taught
one of these classes for two days, and I kind of understood from all
of these seamstresses who applied to this program that they, they
just don’t plan to leave the, leave this career field. I mean,
they just, they want to get the money, and they don’t mind
going to school to get to earn this money. Like, come on now, going
to school and getting paid for it is better than, you know, working
hard at, like, in front of a sewing machine. But at the same time,
after these thirteen weeks, they’re not planning to change
their life at all. Life goes back to normal, it’s just that I
got a little bit more money, a little bit more cash from going to
school. And so I, I mean, I don’t---I think it’s
pointless that there’re these, these like classes. And like,
when I worked for this, this, um, like, this company, like who
teaches the seamstresses, um, when they hired me, they hired me on a
very like, very unprofessionally. Like they just kind of glanced at
my resume and say, “You know how to speak Chinese, right?”
And I had this, maybe like five-minute um, like, five-minute training
session, or not training session but like testing me out or whatever.
And this, this woman she spoke American, like she spoke in English,
and I, I was, um---She told me to speak in Chinese and, and teach
her, so I’m just like, “You don’t understand what
I’m trying to say, so even if I’m trying to teach you in
Chinese, you don’t know anything, like you’re not
understanding anything I’m trying to say.” After maybe
like two to five minutes, she was like, “Okay, you’re
hired, like come, go to, come to work tomorrow, and, and, like,
you’re going to have to teach this class for how many, how many
days,” and then after two day, after two days of working for
her, she fired me, because, um, like, I guess some, some of the like,
students complained that I was too like strict and they needed some
teacher that was easier. So they were very unprofessional about it.
Like, they’re, they’re not, I mean, they’re just,
like they just want to
play around.
Like even, even the company, the company who hired me, themselves,
they were not like serious about it. All they wanted to do was get
this money from the relief fund, like get the sponsoring money or
whatever, and, and like, you know, just like teach these people and
go through thirteen weeks of like easy-going time, they’re like
no problems rise, then that’s okay, but if any problems come,
come about, they just want to like cover it up and like you know, not
let anyone know about it, you know.</p>
<p>
And after like thirteen weeks,
you get your money, I get my money, then we’re happy. Like,
that, that’s the way I see it, you know. It’s just very
unprofessional, and I think it’s just, the whole thing is a
conspiracy, like a scam.</p>
<p>
Q: The whole relief effort?</p>
<p>
K.: I mean, the whole, like,
educating the seamstress thing. Like I just think the whole thing is
pretty much a scam. And for my mom, like her, like her education
program or whatever, um, she, like, they, like her boss, started
getting like scared because all these, all these seamstresses were,
were like leaning toward quitting and doing this education program,
and so, like the boss went to um, went to the union I think and told
them about it, and they were like, “This is not going to work
out, if this continues, then my factory is going to be closed, and so
if this is going to happen, like, you know, can we like, you know,
try to figure something out and like, you know, compromise, like
maybe have like a class in Chinatown, so they can just go to work in
Chinatown and then in the afternoon come back to work?”
</p>
<p>
So this is what happened and so,
like, they got to go back to China---like they had a class in
Chinatown to work and then they go, and then after class they go,
they go to work. And then for six weeks, they did the learning in
class thing. And then there was this, there was supposed to be six
weeks in the computer room, too, but then they just made six weeks in
the computer, like in the morning is computer and then in the
afternoon or something is like writing or like a writing session. Or
they’d bulk up the days, where like Tuesdays is computer, and
Thursdays is computer, and then the rest of the days were writing.
And then, and then, the six weeks that were left, they ended up
teaching like how to, better ways in like sewing, or better ways of
using like
the sewing machines, which
is---my mom has worked in the sewing industry for like twenty years.
Does she need to be teached, like to be taught how to use the sewing
machine, again? Like they were, like, I looked at some of her
homework assignments, and it was just, you know, saying “button”
in English, you know, and like learning how to write these parts in
English. Does she really need to learn what a, like, how do you say
“a button” in English, you know, like I’m saying
this in English, but I’m, you know, of course she’s
saying “button” in Chinese, and I’m like, you know,
teaching her like these words, like how to say a, like how to write
“pocket,” or like spell out “pocket” or
“pants” or learn what kind of department she’s
working in. Come on. When she goes to another factory, she does not
need to hand in a resume saying like, “I worked in the pocket’s
department.” Like, you know, they’re not going to look at
the resume and be like, “Oh, you worked in the pocket’s
department. Okay, you know, I’m going to like raise you and let
you work in the management department. Like, that’s not going
to happen. She’s going to work in the pocket department again
when she goes to another factory, and no resume is going to be
involved. They teach you how to write a resume and everything she
writes in the resume is, everything dealing with the factory, you
know, like---</p>
<p>
Q: Well, then why did your mom
go through the program?<br><br>K.: To get the money---</p>
<p>
Q: And that was it?</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah, to get the money, to
learn, to learn English. I mean, she wanted to learn English and she,
I asked her like what her goal was. And she told me that she wanted
to learn about the computers so that she could, like, go online to
talk to me when I’m in school, and like, maybe write me an
email like once in a while, and then she also wanted to learn enough
English so she can get by. Like, so she can order her own food, or,
like, you know, just commute around New York City, like, without
having like a problem. Like, if she gets lost she can ask her way
around.</p>
<p>
<br>Q: Do you think your mother
is afraid in some ways, she’s scared because she’s a
little bit handicapped?<br>
<br>K.:
Yeah, very much. That’s why she doesn’t want to move out
of Chinatown. That’s why she wants to live here all her life.
</p>
<p>
Q: Do you want to share us the
agencies that you work with? You don’t have to, but---Do you
think they’re typical of a lot of the programs out
there?<br><br>K.: I can’t say. I mean, I only worked for
them, but I can’t say that they’re, they were---I can’t
say that that’s what everyone is like, you know. I mean, I
know for, my mom had a, had an American teacher. She had several
American teachers and a couple of translators, and she though the
American teachers were---she liked her American teachers, but she
didn’t like the translators. I mean, I ---I mean, there are
different situations, I mean some companies might have been serious
about it, it’s just the one I worked for, I didn’t think
they were serious.</p>
<p>
Q: What would have been useful
for someone like your mom? What kind of training would have been
useful for her?</p>
<p>
K.: Thirteen weeks is nothing.
I went to school for, like, so many years. I mean, like, it’s
been like around twenty years that I’ve went to school. You
think someone who doesn’t speak English at all, who is around
fifty years old, can go to school for thirteen weeks and learn
English and move on to a new career field? That’s just wishful
thinking, come on, now, please, you know? Like, long-term education.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think that’s
what those programs are really for? Is it really to get people to
change career, or to better themselves for the field that they’re
already in?<br><br>K.: The goal, that, their mission statement is
to have them eventually change their career field. I think this
mission statement is just a little too much that they’re aiming
for. Don’t, don’t write a mission statement like that,
and then, if you’re not going to urge these seamstresses to
change their career field. Don’t write a mission statement like
that.
</p>
<p>
What
this program does is just help, it helps them temporarily. It gives
them money temporarily. And that money, of course is going to
helpful. I mean, for my mom it was helpful, like, you know, we had a,
like at that point you know, she had more money, and working only in
factory she wouldn’t have had. But in terms of learning
English, or, or, working, being in these education programs to start
a new life? That’s just, you know, BS. It won’t happen,
you know.</p>
<p>
Q: But realistically, what can
your mother do without---other than sewing?<br><br>K.:
Realistically? I don’t know, I mean, if she learned a little
bit more English, like, so that she can at least communicate, like
say, like, “How are you doing?” or, or, understand what
people say when they’re like, “Bathroom,” like, you
know, there are things she understands, but, like, if she can get
over her fear and like speak English, maybe she can work in like, you
know, housecleaning---I mean, I mean, of course they’re all
going to be like blue collar jobs. I don’t expect her to be
working in a post office, you know, where you have to speak to all
different kinds of, you know, races, and know English fluently. Like,
whatever job it is, she won’t be able to work in like a, like a
English-speaking environment.</p>
<p>
Q: Would you prefer your mom to
be cleaning houses rather than sewing?</p>
<p>
K.: There are like places
where you can like, you know, do housecleaning, or like, just, you
know, baby-sit, like those kind of jobs. I mean, they’re much
more easy going than working in a factory, where, like, it’s
hot in the summer, like, and, you know, you’re breathing like
really bad and dusty air, like, just the working environment is---and
like, there are like little rats like running around that you can’t
see, and that’s why they have so many cats in there, because
these cats are the ones who are like you know, keeping the rats away.
But like, my mom puts a bag of, of like bread on the floor and she
brings it home and like I see a little hole in there, with like
breadcrumbs around it, like, you know, like, someone took a bite of
it, you know, like, not my mom so it’s definitely some rat or
cat. That’s kind of----</p>
<p>
<br>Q: But does she ever
complain about her working conditions?<br><br>
K.: I don’t think she can complain about it. She’s
never complained about it. I mean, she complains about how it’s
really hot in the summer, but, you know, I mean, if she’s
housecleaning, or, or, like babysitting or whatever, like, this is
still, I mean, it’s still a blue collar job, but at least the
working environment, I mean, if you’re living in a house and it
needs to be cleaned, that kind of environment won’t be as bad
as a, like, a factory, you know.</p>
<p>
Q: Has your mom’s health
been effected by these long years of working?<br><br>K.: She has
knee problems, it’s from, from sewing. She has back problems,
she has neck problems. And like, you know, every once in a while, her
neck starts to hurt, and she like gives me this Chinese medicine to
rub it on her.</p>
<p>
Q: And does the union’s
health insurance cover her?<br><br>K.: That’s the only
thing, like, her health insurance is really good, and she loves the
health insurance, and if she changes her career she won’t get
health insurance. Like if she baby-sits, she won’t get
babysitting health insurance, you know? So that’s why she’s
unwilling to give up her job.</p>
<p>
Q: And all these years, your
mother has never thought of going back to Hong Kong or China?<br><br>K.:
No, because, because I----she wants me to have---like, there are
benefits in America, like with Social Security, like, you know
there’s a retirement program, and, like all these things is
what, you know America can offer, which, when you go back to Hong
Kong, you can’t have these things, so---I think that’s
why she likes America more.</p>
<p>
Q: And you’ve never had
any desire to live---Well, you don’t know what it’s like
to live anywhere else but America.</p>
<p>
K.: Not really. I mean, I
studied abroad in London for like a semester, but that is not really
like realistic, like realistic experience, you know, because the
school took care of me and---</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: So, do you feel super close
to your mom because there’s been just the two of you for so
long?</p>
<p>
K.: We’re very, we’re
very close in that sense. Like, I mean, when I talk to my other
Chinese friends, like Chinese-American friends, like they kind of
envy me, because I have this like close relationship with my mom, I
mean we can talk about a lot of things, but it’s also like
really frustrating as well, because, like, I mean I have a close
relationship with her, but I think it’s because she’s so
passive, and I’m so aggressive, the like our personalities
really clash, and ever since I went to college, I guess my view like
opened up, like, I see much more than just Chinatown, and like, it’s
just very different for me now. And I just want something different.
I can’t just, I can’t, after seeing how the world is out
there, I can’t just come back to Chinatown and be, and be
satisfied with it. You know, I can’t just live this life
forever. Like, I need to, I want something better for both of us. I
want her to stop working so that her knee can better. You know, I
mean if she keeps working her knee won’t ever get better. And
she keeps complaining about it, but what can I do for her? You know,
we have to work, we have to support ourselves, and until I get my
job, my ideal job, and until I get that like forty K a year, you
know, there’s nothing I can do for her.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you feel that’s a
burden? Do your American friends think the way you do, that they want
to take care of their parents?<br><br>K.: I think that for me,
it’s definitely a responsibility. I have to take care of my
mom. I mean, she’s given up so much for me. Like, when I was a
child, that now, like, I know like, I know when I graduate out of
college, living alone is not an option. I have to live with my mom.
Like, and a lot of my Western friends and Chinese friends, like,
they, they don’t, you know, they don’t understand it, you
know. They think, like, why can’t you just, you know, “Live
your own life, you need the independence, like, in the, you know have
to be independent and stuff.” But they don’t understand,
like, you know, I mean, if my mom had not done the things that she’s
done for me, then I would not be here. It’s as simple as that.
</p>
<p>
So I don’t---it’s not
that I don’t want to, either. Like, I really want to live with
her, I want to take
care of her. Like,
I want to give her, like, something, like, for what she’s done
for me, and, I mean, of course, sometimes I wonder, like, how life
would be, if I can live alone, like if I can, like, have an apartment
and live with all my, like, friends, that, you know, it’s
wishful thinking, but that’s just not realistic, like---</p>
<p>
Q: Well, you’re kind of
independent now, you’re in college, at---where is the
university again?</p>
<p>
K.: In Ohio.</p>
<p>
Q: And why did you choose to be
all the way in Ohio?</p>
<p>
K.: Um, I wanted to leave New
York City. I wanted to see how the world is out there. Like, I know
New York City is a bubble itself, I mean, not just Chinatown, but the
city is a bubble, and so I wanted to remove myself and see, like, how
life is, not in---suburban life, like outside in the country, or,
or---just not New York. And also, I knew that if---I knew that after
college I would have to live with my mom forever, and I wanted to
experience living by myself and get those four years of experience
and then, you know---</p>
<p>
Q: And are you liking it out
there?</p>
<p>
K.: I like it out there. I
like living. I mean, I live with, three, like, three people, like
three girls, right now. Like they were my friends in college, and we
have a house, and it’s really like easy going, I mean, I like
that kind of lifestyle, but, you know, like after college it’s
going to have to end. Like all this, all this fun and games, like
they’re, they’re going to have to be kaput. And then it’s
going to be working and working.</p>
<p>
Q: You don’t seem to be
very much looking forward to living with your mother again, and it
sounds like there’s a whole lot of responsibility.</p>
<p>
K.: There is a lot of
responsibility, but, I mean, I’m sure, I’m not too
thrilled about it, I guess now because we’ve going through a
lot of frustrations. I mean, we’re really, we’re both
really
stressed out right now, and I
mean, I guess like living alone and like four years in college, has
made me to be really like, independent, and, like some of the things,
like, that I used to be able to endure, like how she like wants me to
go to, like, at a certain time, like, you know, these things, you
don’t need to take of me on that. Like, I know when I need to
go to bed. Like, I mean, if I want to go to bed at three or four in
the morning, like, that’s my problem, like, I’ll, I’ll
get up later in the morning. Like, I know how to live my life now.
I’m twenty-one years old. You don’t need to tell me when
to eat or when to go to bed, or like what to eat, or like, what to
do. You know, like that kind of stuff, like, I’m not a kid
anymore, like, these things---I think she just needs to understand
that I’m not, like, ten years old, that she doesn’t need
to take care of me, in that sense anymore.
</p>
<p>
And I guess there’s just
like, I mean, I’ve been coming back, like every so often, like
during breaks and stuff, and that’s why I can’t like get
used to her and her nagging and stuff, but I feel like once we get to
live with each other on a long-term basis, then we can develop an
understanding and compromise with each other more. I mean, in terms
of living with her, like, on a long-term basis, I think it’s
just, we both have to compromise in order for it to work out. I
mean, I’m not scared about it, I mean, I’m not like, not
thrilled about it, I mean, I’m not as thrilled about it as I
would wish to be, but, but it’s something we have to do.
</p>
<p>
Q: What do you think is the
stigma attached to living in Chinatown? Like, you said when you went
to London you told people, Oh, you lived on Pike Street, and they
said, “Oh, Chinatown.” What do you think the average
person thinks when you say “I live in Chinatown”?</p>
<p>
K.: I think it’s, they
think that Chinatown is very dirty and is full of tenements and that,
like if you live in Chinatown, then you must not have had a well-off
life. Like, I think there’s just a whole bunch of stereotypes
connected to Chinatown itself that it’s, it’s the slum,
you know, you know, you walk on the streets, people, like on East
Broadway, for instance, like people are just like squatting and
talking on telephones, and they have like no, they’re
discourteous, they have no manners whatsoever, they’re
impolite, they push around, they don’t say, “Excuse me,”
they don’t say, “Sorry,” they’re not---Like,
I mean, it was my sister and I were walking in Chinatown, and she has
a kid, we’re pushing the baby cart, everywhere else in New York
City, people would
move away and like
not try to push you, and if you have to go through a door, like, they
would hold the door for you. But only in Chinatown, men actually try
to push you away even when you’re like with a baby carriage,
you know? And, so like these, these Chinese people, like they just
have no kind----they have no, like they just don’t love where
they live in. Like, this is the place where you live in. Take care of
it, for God’s sake! Don’t throw garbage on the streets,
like it’s the dirtiest place that you can actually be in, in
the city. I, I feel.
</p>
<p>
Like, you know, we have these
fish markets, and it just smells, it stinks, I hate going on Mott
Street, like, they have like, whenever I have to go on Mott Street to
buy food, like, or groceries, with my mom, it’s like these
people, they just like treat the streets like trash. Like they spit
like all over the place, like they throw garbage, they did into their
noses, god, you know, go back to your home, like, go to the bathroom,
or like, you know, somewhere where you can wash your hands, like, you
know, like, I don’t want to see it, I don’t want you to
touch me after you’ve touched your like, like your nose or
whatever. That’s disgusting!</p>
<p>
Q: So are you saying Chinese
people are dirtier maybe than other----</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah! I mean, I don’t
want to stereotype, like, you know, I mean, these are, like, my
people, in the end, but ultimately, but, like, you know, they, we,
people look down on us, because they are the people who they are.
Like, I mean, if you ‘re not going to be more civilized about
yourself, like, you know, if you’re not going to become
civilized and if you’re not going to respect yourself and
respect the place you’re living, other people won’t
respect you. That’s the way I see it.</p>
<p>
I mean, I’m angry, I’m
angry when other people like look down on us and when they condescend
on us, upon us, of course I’m very angry about it, and I wish
that, like, there wasn’t such a thing. But I can’t, even
I can’t help looking down on these people when they are doing
the things they do. And in terms of like, like, having their voice
out, like, you know, we have this Chinese poem. I actually wrote
about this when I was a kid. Like, this poem that’s like they
say, you know, withholding or resistance and like trying to take in
everything, and if you take in everything like, you know, the ocean
will look wider, and [recites a poem in Chinese] You know? Have you
heard of that?</p>
<p>
Q: You have to translate that
into English, so that people who don’t speak Chinese---what
does that poem mean?</p>
<p>
K.: Well, it means, that like,
well, what, what, what the poem, it’s not really a poem, it’s
more like a saying, like a two-line saying, like with---</p>
<p>
Q: A proverb.</p>
<p>
K.: Yes. Um, and it’s
about just, resisting, resistance, like, how much you can take, how
much you can withhold, how much people can step on you, and you can
just take it in and not fight back. Like, and if you can just hold it
in and like, you know, and withhold it for awhile, then, like, after
you step back you will see that the world is much bigger and that,
like the waves are silent and then you won’t like, you won’
tactually move anything. Like everything is just the way it is. Like,
you won’t like---I don’t know, how to translate it----</p>
<p>
Q: ---Is that accurate for
Chinese people? Is that what you’re saying?</p>
<p>
K.: That’s what I
learned, since I was a kid. Like, and when I was really young, like
in elementary school, I used to be bullied by this Hispanic person,
like this Hispanic, like, student, who was my age. She lived in my
building, and she used to bully me all the time, and my grandmother
used to pick me up from school, like after, like at around like six
o’clock, after daycare, I mean. And then this Hispanic, like,
girl, would wait in front of our apartment door, just so that she can
like get the happiness of the day, like, you know, like, she gets to
slap me around, a little bit, and she feels much happier about it,
like it’s her passing time. And one time it was just horrible.
My grandmother picked me up, and this girl, like, maybe in second
grade, like, eight years old or seven years old, she slapped my
grandmother! Like a fifty-year-old or sixty-year-old like elderly
grandmother, she was able to slap her around, and like, she took my
headband off of me and broke it, and threw a tennis ball at her.
</p>
<p>
And
like, this kind of abuse, if you were strong about yourself, like if
you, if you, if there was no, this proverb, if this was not in our
minds, like, we could have like gotten help, like I could have went
to the principal. Like, I didn’t have to endure this kind of
like, life.<br><br>
</p>
<p>
Q: What did you do, when the
girl did that?</p>
<p>
K.: We didn’t do
anything, for like almost half a year, I had to go through this kind
of like constant bullying, and constant just like, constant abuse by
this girl, and after half a year, finally I was full of it. I just
went to my mom, like, “I can’t take this anymore. You
have to do something about it. You’re my mom. If you can’t
protect me, who is going to protect me?” And like, my
grandmother can’t protect me, my grandmother is being abused by
this little girl, and so like finally my mom was like, “Okay,
we’re going to go to the principal, we’re going to like,
you know, get some help, like, you know, we’re going to like,
rat her out, finally.” And so after that, you know, it finally
stopped, she stopped doing it. But this has taught---I think that,
that happened in second grade, and that has really taught me to be
who I am, to be like, as loud, and as aggressive, to voice my
opinion.</p>
<p>
I mean, like, all these, all
these like Chinese people living in Chinatown, like they want all
these things, like they think that the government isn’t like,
you know, giving them enough attention. They think that the
government isn’t like, you know, treating us right, like,
especially during the blackout, you know, Chinatown and Lower East
Side was the the last, the last, like area to get their electricity
back. You know, we were the last place to be recognized. Queens was
one of the
</p>
<p>
<b>[END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN
TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]</b></p>
<p>
Q: The blackout in 2003,
Chinatown was one of the last areas in New York City to get
electricity back.</p>
<p>
K.: Yeah, Lower East Side, and
not just Chinatown.</p>
<p>
Q: And why do you think that
is?<br><br>
K.: I think it’s
because, you know, we’re just disrespected, like, everyone
living in the Lower East Side is just not respected. Like, you know,
the government doesn’t really give a, like a crap about, you
know, about this area, because, you know, people who are living in
this area, like, are just not as well off as the Upper West Side or
the Upper East or whatever, and so, like, we get the last cut of the
cake, you know, the last piece.</p>
<p>
And so, like, it’s just not
fair, you know, like---It’s also I think it’s because,
like, in terms of coming from Chinatown, and coming from like a
Chinese point of view, I feel like these Chinese people, they don’t
like to, like, you know, they don’t like to cause any trouble
and like they don’t like to, you know, say anything about what
they need or what they want. Like, they need something or they want
something, but they don’t do anything about it. They just like
keep it inside themselves and they’re just like, okay, if I
can’t have it, fine, I’ll live without it. But like, in
terms of like, necessities or like, something dealing with politics,
like, you know, if none of us vote, and if none of like write down
that we’re Chinese and we’re voting, of course, like, we
have such a small portion in like, the American voting process, that
like of course like no kind of government will actually take us into
consideration ‘cause we’re, we have such a small, like,
voice. Like we’re just, we’re a minority that can, that
can work hard, and like, like as a stereotype, you know, we can work
hard, and like, you know, climb up the ladder and with, with our,
like, bare hands or whatever. But in terms of like, giving into the
government, or like you know, showing them that we care, or showing
them that we actually like the place that we live in, or like, you
know, dealing with politics, they just don’t do anything about
it.</p>
<p>
Like, voting---“Oh, that’s
just a waste of time.” You know, like my mom, had, didn’t
even vote until recently, until like, for Bloomberg, that was the
mayor that she, like, that she actually, that was the election that
she voted on, like, first. And that was only because she wanted to
see how, like, voting is like, and after that, after voting that one
time, she didn’t vote anymore again. And so like, you know,
it’s like that’s the way every other Chinese person
thinks. Like they don’t like to give to the community in order
to get something back. Like, they just think, like, you know, giving
something that’s this little is just a waste of time, but they
don’t understand the long term, like, benefits, like, an
advantage of them just doing, wasting like an hour of their time to
go vote, and like, maybe in the future like the American government
will finally recognize that Chinese
people
aren’t like as quiet as we’re stereotyped to be, and
we’re not as like, passive as, as they think that we are. And
by the way, maybe one day they will respect us, you know?<br><br>Q:
Well, your generation. You’re going to---you are different from
your parents, right? You have a voice, you have an education, you
speak English, so do you, what, what do you think your generation can
do to make a difference in that way?<br><br>K.: I think my
generation, I think that there are many types of people in my
generation, and I am just one type of them. Like there are other
people my age who are wasting their lives and going to like Grant
Street Park and playing handball, like, twenty-four seven. You know?
Like there are many people, like, I mean, my generation, I mean,
true, like, we have an education, we know how to speak English, but,
I mean, until, I don’t think that all of us recognize that, you
know, we’re being discriminated, that like, we have to do
something to change it. Like, this is not like a, this change is not
going to happen until we all recognize it, and I don’t think we
have all recognized this. Like, and more me, like, it’s just
such a small portion of people who are like, active like me, like who
want something different, who want to change.
</p>
<p>
Q: So you think when you’re
done with school, you might come back and do something for the
community?<br><br>K.: I would like to do something for the
community. I mean, right now, in school, I’m like part of the
Chinese Students Association. There wasn’t even a Chinese
Students Association in my school that was chartered, and we just had
to work really hard to charter this organization. Like, I think
William, who is working in this museum, he was one of the founding
fathers of this organization, but even when he graduated, our
organization wasn’t even chartered yet. And the only reason was
because the Chinese in my school was not united enough. We weren’t
like, we didn’t have, like, a loud voice, we didn’t have
enough student membership in order to get ourselves chartered. I mean
if this, if the Chinese students don’t even want a place or a
union for themselves, then of course the school wouldn’t
recognize that they need it. Like, if they don’t need it, why
do we have to give them one? That’s what the school thinks.
</p>
<p>
And
so, like, we’re so disorganized, and we’re so not
unified. I just think like Chinese is one of the Asian, like, one of
the Asians that are the most not, like, united. That’s---I
don’t understand why. Like, like, just Chinese people don’t
like to help out each other, they don’t like to ask each other
for help, they’re just like, everyone is just, you know,
selfish, and, like, I mean I guess I am stereotyping again, like, not
all of us are like that, but, you know, in general, it’s just,
you know, no one likes to, like, they don’t, we’re not
like the Koreans, we’re not like the, you know, like, you know,
the Japanese, like in school they all have their little like groups
that like to help each other out, like even if they don’t know
each other well, they know about each other, they like to say “Hi”
to each other, but the Chinese, they just like live in their little
world, they live in their own room, they don’t like to like,
you know, they don’t like to assimilate, they don’t like
to, like, reach out to people. They’re just, you know, they’re
like, squished.</p>
<p>
Q: You seem to have a lot of, I
don’t know, anger, or rage in you.</p>
<p>
K.: I’m angry because I
don’t understand why, like if they know that there’s
something better, why wouldn’t they want to like, have that,
you know? If there are students who are so enthusiastic about having
a student union, and like uniting us, and like building a bridge so
that, you know, all of us from different backgrounds can like, you
know, unify and like communicate with each other, and like foster an
understanding for each other, why wouldn’t they want something
like that? It’s something good. Why wouldn’t they want
to, like, have anything to do with us, you know? It took us forever
to like, get, like, the student membership that we have now, and most
of it are like the Chinese-Americans, like, American-born Chinese,
who are like from a, like the college background.
</p>
<p>
Like even in my school, there’s
like such a, like a gap, like there’s the conservatory, and
there’s the college, and the conservatory, the students in the
conservatory are mostly, like, you know, students coming from China
or Hong Kong or Taiwan, or, like, you know, other Asian countries, or
like, the international countries coming to the conservatory to study
music, ‘cause we have a really good department in music, and
like these students who are here for four years, they just don’t
want to like, get out of the conservatory. They stay there their
whole entire four years, and, like, go there from morning to like,
night time, and practice all day. They don’t even want to
understand, like, like, anything else about living in
America, or anything else about, like other students around them. And
so, like, you know, and this is, this is a small example about how
the bigger picture is like, you know. This college conservatory
problem is exactly like what Chinatown and New York City is like.</p>
<p>
Q: So, it seems you consider
yourself very Chinese. Am I correct? Especially given that you were
pretty much raised in this country.
</p>
<p>
K.: Yes.
</p>
<p>
Q: Does your mother feel that
way? Obviously, she is Chinese. Does she feel American at all?<br><br>K.:
I don’t know. I don’t think so. She always laughs at me,
she---like, when I was young, I’d always say, “You
people, you Chinese people, and us American people.” You know,
I kind of like, like, differentiating us in that way. Like, I kind of
like separated us. Like, in terms of identity, when I was young, but
now, I don’t, I consider myself as a Chinese-American, I don’t
just consider myself as a Chinese person or whatever. Like, and I
think my mom considers herself as Chinese still. And I don’t
think she. She thinks, when she goes back to Hong Kong, I’m
pretty sure she would say something like, you know, like she would
refer to America, like she would probably feel proud that she’s
in America, like given that Hong Kong has such a bad economy right
now, and it’s just going down the hill right now ever since it
went back to Chinatown, I mean, to China. But---</p>
<p>
Q: So has September 11<sup>th</sup>
in any way made you think about all these things, of, are you proud
to be an American, do you feel more patriotic?<br><br>K.: I was
very patriotic when September 11<sup>th</sup> happened, but I have to
say that there are some things that I don’t agree with that the
American government has done.</p>
<p>
Q: Such as?</p>
<p>
K.:
Like the war in Iraq. I just, I mean, you know, coming from like,
the college point of view, like, there’s a lot of activism in
my school about this, and, I think it’s a whole conspiracy,
like an oil conspiracy, like, just to get the oil, ‘cause our
country doesn’t have enough of it.</p>
<p>
Q: Does your mom pressure you in
any way to do anything in particular, to, any kind of profession, any
specific type of profession?<br><br>K.: No, because when I was
choosing between like going to high schools, like what high schools
to go to, I wanted to go to LaGuardia High School, which is an arts
school, and I primarily wanted to work in fine arts, and like, do
like wood work and stuff, and she just really freaked out. She was
like, “No, you are not going to LaGuardia High School,”
like “I am not letting you go into that high school, like, you
just, like, that’s just not going to happen at all.”</p>
<p>
So I had the opportunity to go
and like to enter that high school, but I had to forfeit it, because
she was just so, she objected to it, so like, you know, by such like
great, like at great lengths she was going to like forbid me to go,
like, if you go, you’re not my daughter anymore, like that kind
of talk that she gave me, and so like I just had to, you know, to
give that up. And I always wanted to work in the arts, in the arts
field and stuff, and so when---I always blamed her for that, and
like, for that experience, and like not being able to go to
LaGuardia, because after like, a couple of years after I went to high
school, she like realized that like even going to LaGuardia I could
study other things, like architecture or like design or whatever that
could have benefited me, I didn’t have to just become a poor
street artist, as she would think. And so she kind of like took away
this opportunity for me. And for college she just didn’t want
the same thing to happen again, so she was like, hands off. “I’m
not giving you any opinions. Whatever college you choose to, it’s
your, it’s your decision. You know, just make sure that you’re
like, not going to fail, that you will get out of college in four
years ‘cause that’s all I can afford, and you can succeed
no matter whatever you choose.
</p>
<p>
And so like, I---you know, even
without her pressuring me, I still knew that I just can’t major
in art. Like, art was---I chose to double major in English and Art,
because, I mean, one English, I
feel
like as a Chinese-American growing up in Chinatown, I didn’t
have that kind of exposure to the English literature. Like, I didn’t
get a chance to read the paper every single day. Like, I don’t
know about New York Times best sellers. Like, that’s why I
wanted to major in English, to master the language, and just be
exposed to the English literature like the way that, like, an
American born, like a Western or a Caucasian, like, you know, just a
Western family who would bring up their child and expose them to this
kind of literature, like, I would want to like, know about these
things. And that’s why I chose English, to benefit me in that
way.
</p>
<p>
And art was just an interest that
I’ve always had, and that’s why. Like, I know I can’t
just choose art, because if I just choose art, then my mom’s
going to think, “Oh no, poor street artist.” So that’s
why I chose English as well. Like English is the one that’s
going to support me and art is like, you know, a sidekick.</p>
<p>
Q: So you described yourself
earlier as you’re more aggressive than your mom, and because of
what happened to you as a kid, being bullied on and all, does
speaking out loud all the time and being more aggressive, has that
changed the way people treated you?</p>
<p>
K.: I think so. Like a lot
people describe me as like, loud, and blunt, very honest, and
critical. Like, I’m obviously very different from a lot of my
friends who are very passive, like, who resemble my mom in many ways,
because they were brought up the way they were. Like, I think it’s
because I lived with my mom, and I, I mean, even though I have a
sister, like, I was pretty much an only child, and I got my way a
lot, and my mom, it was just my mom who was teaching me, and, I mean,
if she didn’t have that much time to teach me, then, I got to
be the---like, I got to learn my own way and be the way I want to be,
and that’s why I was able to be as loud and you know, as
aggressive as I want to be. I didn’t have that kind of, mother,
like father, like parenting, and like other siblings, you know, to be
as my model. Like, you know, everything that I wanted to be, it was
from like, it was from my own experience. Like it’s not---like
I didn’t have any like examples or anything that was trying to
like, keep me within the boundaries of what they expect.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, I have to ask you a
health-related question now. Chinatown supposedly has a much higher
rate of asthma sufferers than other parts of New York because the air
and the pollution
here is quite bad.
Have you had any problems with that?<br><br>K.: No, I haven’t.
</p>
<p>
Q: Your friends?</p>
<p>
K.: I don’t know of any
of that. I mean, I did develop some allergies, but I don’t
think it’s because of---I’m not sure if it’s
because of Chinatown, but, like, I have allergies in the springtime,
and that’s about it.</p>
<p>
Q: So after September 11<sup>th</sup>,
your mother got like vacuum cleaners, air filters, that kind of
thing, and they were helpful.</p>
<p>
K.: Yes. She actually
developed some allergies to like, to dust.</p>
<p>
Q: After September 11<sup>th</sup>?<br><br>K.:
I’m not sure when it developed, but like now, I know she has
some like trouble with like dust and pollen and she has to wear like,
a mask, like, when she works, like a little nose mask to keep away
from the, to keep the dust away.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, maybe from all the years
of working in the factories, you mean?</p>
<p>
K.: I think so. I think
there’s not just---I think it’s the factory, and also,
maybe like, like, the pollen, I think. She’s definitely
allergic to pollen.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. Well, we’ve
covered quite a lot of things, and you obviously have a lot to say,
K.. Is there anything else you want to share with us that we
haven’t talked about?<br><br>K.: I don’t---I can’t
think of anything now.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. Well, I wish you luck
in your studies, and I hope that you do come back and do something in
the community, because I think a lot of people when the opportunity
to leave, they just leave and don’t come back, so. Anyhow,
thank you so much for sharing your stories with us.</p>
<p>
K.: No problem. I was glad.
Yeah. [laughter]</p>
<p>
<b>[END OF SESSION]</b></p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問﹕今天是2004年1月27日。我們現在在美洲華人博物館檔案室進行採訪。
K.﹕我知道我母親來紐約是
K.﹕“互不干涉(Don’t Ask)”的關係。我和我父親不是太親近﹐
問﹕在紐約市哪里﹖</p>
<p>K.﹕我想是在St. Vincent's醫院﹐我不記得了。</p>
<p>問﹕在唐人街﹖</p>
<p>K.﹕是在唐人街嗎﹖[笑]</p>
<p>問﹕唐人街有一家。</p>
<p>K.﹕應該是那家吧。</p>
<p>問﹕那
問﹕爲什麽﹖是
問﹕她從來沒有考慮過要改嫁嗎﹖</p>
<p>K.﹕我想她是
問﹕一年一萬塊錢﹐那是哪年的事情﹖一年一萬塊怎麽過啊﹖</p>
<p>K.﹕是九千﹗不是一萬。我們從來沒有賺過一萬。</p>
<p>問﹕甚至是2003年﹖
K.﹕他住在布魯克林。</p>
<p>問﹕他和
我姥姥以前經常送我上學﹐也在周末的時候照顧我﹐我母親只在星期天陪一下我﹐有時候是晚上。</p>
<p>問﹕
問﹕她是做什麽的﹖</p>
<p>K.﹕也是做裁縫。她不太喜歡上學。她那時有機會上學﹐但她不是太喜歡那裏的環境。我想是
K.﹕我就是說服不了她。</p>
<p>問﹕
問﹕
K.﹕現在我是很高興﹐但以前卻不是﹐
我現在的中文會非常好。我不至於浪費大學裏的學分﹐在年紀大了的時候選五個學分的課來學中文。</p>
<p>如果我自己有了孩子﹐我也會讓他們講中文﹐我會讓他們講雙語。讓他們知道我所經歷的事情﹐解釋給他們聽。我的意思是說﹐
K.﹕她這麽認爲。有些時候我也想到過這些。也許吧。我感激她爲我做的很多事情﹐我也不能責怪她做出的一些選擇。如果換了我﹐我可能會有不同的選擇﹐以至於我的孩子以後不會太辛苦。但她的確有太多的考慮﹐所以我也不能怪她這些。我不能怪她一直沒有離開唐人街﹐她只有這個經濟條件。</p>
<p>我希望現狀會有所不同﹐但我不能怪她的選擇。</p>
<p>問﹕聽起來﹐
並不是說我想完全忘記這個地方﹐把它從我的記憶中抹去﹐我要離開這裏只不過是想換個居住條件更好的地方。但唐人街沒有這種條件﹐沒有比如說三個臥室的房間﹐或是很大的房間或房子。這裏全部是分租的房間﹐或是小型公寓房間﹐這些不是我想象中的未來居住環境。</p>
<p>問﹕那
K.﹕有。在9/11之後﹐她的衣
問﹕在她沒有工作的那段時間﹐那些救濟金
問﹕除了沒有上班以外﹐
她就把我解雇了﹐我想是
他們把每天的課時都增
問﹕
如果他們沒有打算說服這些衣
問﹕她有沒有抱怨過她的工作環境呢﹖</p>
<p>K.﹕我想輪不到她抱怨﹐她也從來沒有抱怨過。她抱怨過那裏夏天比較熱﹐但如果她做清潔工或看孩子什麽的﹐那仍然是些藍
K.﹕是的。我在倫敦上了一個學期的課﹐但那不算是真正的體驗﹐
但他們不知道如果我母親沒有爲我做這麽多的犧牲﹐我今天也不會是這個樣子。就是這麽簡單。</p>
<p>當然﹐我也並不是說我不想照顧她。我的確想和她住在一起﹐我想照顧她。我想
問﹕
但是看到別的中國人做這些事情的時候﹐我也不自覺地瞧不起他們。我們不是有這麽一首詩嗎﹖實際上﹐這是我在小的時候寫的。這首詩是講要忍﹐忍一時風平浪靜。[用中文背誦詩]
有一次真是太過份了。我姥姥去學
K.﹕是的。還有Lower East Side﹐不光是唐人街。</p>
<p>問﹕
其他中國人也是這樣想的。他們沒有考慮過要參與社區活動好獲得一些回
我們的力量不強大﹐我們會員的數量沒有達到成立機構的要求。如果這些中國學生不想爲自己爭取一席之地或組建協會﹐當然學
大多是從中國大陸﹑香港﹑臺灣來的﹐或是其他亞洲國家的學生﹐還有一些國際學生是來藝術學
K.﹕在9/11發生的時候我很愛國﹐但我必
只要
我做的很多選擇都是
Dublin Core
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K.
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unknown
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Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Winifred C. Chin
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Lan Trinh
Chinatown Interview: Date
2004-01-08
Chinatown Interview: Language
English
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
writer/garment union
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>
Q: Today is January 8<sup>th</sup>,
2004. I am sitting in the Brooklyn, in the home of Winifred. Just
for the record, would you tell us your full name?</p>
<p>
Chin: My name is Winifred
Chun-Hing Chin, and I am a visiting scholar with NYU,
Asian-Pacific-American Studies Program. And I also am an adjunct
assistant professor at NYU for Far Eastern Civilizations.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, we’re going to
start in reverse, and go back to your childhood, and if you could
just tell me where you were born, and where your parents came from.</p>
<p>
Chin: I was born in Brooklyn,
and spent most of my life in Brooklyn. My parents are from China, my
mother from Hong Kong, and my father from Guangzhou, in China, in
Guongdong Province.</p>
<p>
Q: And when did they come to
America?<br><br>Chin: My father came in 1934. He was a paper son, as
described in the book Paper Son, and he went back to China, he went
back to Hong Kong in 1949 and married my mother, and my mother came
in 1950, and they settled in Brooklyn.
</p>
<p>
Q: And why did they choose to
come to New York?</p>
<p>
Chin: Well, my father came first
because the situation in China was economically very poor. And at
that time it was still the exclusion era, south China, the south
China economy was failing, and like other people who wanted to make a
better life for themselves and to be able to send money
back home, he came to America. With my mother, my
mother, in her case, she came from a very well-to-do family in Hong
Kong, but during the Japanese occupation they lost everything, so
right after the war, her parents were eager to marry off as many
daughters as they could, and in her case it was three daughters and
four sons in her family, so two of the daughters were quickly married
to Gold Mountain, Chinese-Americans, so she came here for that
reason.</p>
<p>
Q: And how did you father come
to America?</p>
<p>
Chin: He was a paper son, which
means that he purchased a paper, saying that he was the son of a
Chinese-born American---I’m sorry, he was the son of a
American-born Chinese. And there’s a whole history about these,
which is in my book, Paper Son. And basically it started off in the
exclusion era, which was between 1882 and 1943, there were Chinese
people here in the mid-1800s working on the railroads, but soon after
that, the American government for economic, for racial reasons,
decided they did not want any Chinese-Amer----Chinese in America
anymore.</p>
<p>
So there were some Chinese who
were already here, and had children here, and these were native born
Americans. When you are American-born, you can go anywhere in the
world and still bring your child to America, even if your child was
born somewhere else. So these native-born Americans, who were
Chinese, were your first generation of American-born Chinese. They
were not allowed, by the same laws, by the exclusion laws, they were
not allowed to marry outside of their race. So if they wanted to
marry at that time, they had to go back to China, they married. And
because they were born in America they could come here, whereas other
Chinese people could not. Meaning they could not bring their wives
here.</p>
<p>
<br>The paper son started with
that situation. They would go to China, get married, come back to
America, and nine months later report that they had children, a son
usually, and the government would issue a paper for the son to come
over, because by virtue of being a son of a native-born American,
that son can come, whereas the wife cannot. So those papers,
designating this child to be the son of XYZ American-born Chinese,
was able to come, but instead of bringing the son over, and there was
really no way that the government knew whether or not you had a son,
you would just sell that paper in the open market, in the black
market, and anyone who wanted to
come
to America waited eighteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years, came
over, by purchasing that paper.
</p>
<p>
And when you purchased that paper
you memorized everything. You said, I am the son of so-and-so, who
was born in America, my mother was born in China, I was born on
such-and-such a date. You memorized all this information, and when
you passed through immigration, if you answered all the questions
correctly, they would say, “Okay, you are that person,”
and you were an American citizen. And these were called “paper
sons,” and my father was a paper son.</p>
<p>
Q: So your father purchased one
of these papers?</p>
<p>
Chin: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, so your grandparents
were not Chinese in America at the time. Your father was the first
generation to come to America.</p>
<p>
<br>Chin: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: So when he first came was
1930, you said?</p>
<p>
Chin: 1934.</p>
<p>
Q: 1934. And how old was he at
the time?</p>
<p>
Chin: According to his paper,
because he had to come under the pretense of a different person, he
had to pretend that he was this person that the paper said he was. So
according to the paper, he was nineteen years old.</p>
<p>
Q: But you don’t know---</p>
<p>
Chin: We don’t really know
how old he was.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: And then how long did he stay
here before he went back to marry your mother?</p>
<p>
Chin: He, well he went back in
1949. He was in the U.S. Navy. I have pictures of that, if you’d
like.</p>
<p>
Q: We could show that, later on,
if we get to that.</p>
<p>
So your father went, just lived
in America by himself, between the age of, supposedly nineteen, until
1949 when he went back to Hong Kong----</p>
<p>
Chin: Well, he had his friends
that he knew from the village. From his village in China. And it was
more than just living by himself here. You know, in those days, in
the ‘30s, because during the exclusion era, women were
not----Chinese women were not allowed to come here, even if you
married them, they had to stay in China. Chinatown was basically a
bachelor community at that time. So he had the support, I guess you
might say, of the community, and so, and he, they always, for the
most part they came from the Toisan village, and they knew each
other, so they were distant cousins, or they called each other
cousins and so he had family support in that sense.</p>
<p>
Q: I’m sorry, did you say,
“from the Toisan village”?</p>
<p>
Chin: Right, Toisan.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay, so then he went back to
Hong Kong, where your mother is from, and they met there—</p>
<p>
Chin: Right.</p>
<p>
Q: And was it difficult for him
to get your mother to come back to America?</p>
<p>
Chin: No. I imagine that if it
were earlier, it would have been difficult. But because my mother was
from a very prominent family. Her father was an English teacher, and
her mother was a mid-
wife. The family
owned a car, went to private schools. So it was very, it was very
affluent in those days. But after the war, they had lost everything,
and coming to America seemed like the ideal place to be.</p>
<p>
Q: What do you think they
expect, coming to America?
</p>
<p>
Chin: Most people who come to
America think that America is streets paved with gold. You know, we
call it in Chinese “Gold Mountain,” basically because in
the days of ’49, 1849, there was gold discovered in the
mountains out west. So there’s this concept, there’s this
idea that you come to America, and gold is to be found everywhere.</p>
<p>
My father had warned her in
advance that coming to America was not Gold Mountain, that it would
be laundry work, he would not require her to do much, but that, but
don’t expect a silver palace.
</p>
<p>
Q: But yet your mother accepted
that, having come from an affluent background?</p>
<p>
Chin: She accepted it because
they lost everything during the war. And what money they had
left---every, the Japanese took everything of value, the car, the----</p>
<p>
[another voice noting background
noise problems, cross talk about the recording]</p>
<p>
Q: So in 1949 your father went
back to Hong Kong to marry your mother and take her back to America.
Did you mother have any objections to coming to a place where it was
going to be a lot of hard work?</p>
<p>
Chin: She didn’t object
basically because there was nothing in Hong Kong for her. The
Japanese had taken everything, anything of value, and what money
there was was reserved for the boys in the family to go to school.
Her brother, her older brother became a doctor. Another became a
pharmacist, a younger sister who was more pampered than the older
sisters became a nurse, and so, there was really nothing for the
older girls. And my mother was the third oldest in the family,
so she looked forward to coming, and she knew that it
would be hard work, and she thought that it was a better future than
if she stayed in Hong Kong anyway.</p>
<p>
Q: And did both of your parents
speak English at this time?</p>
<p>
Chin: No. My father knew a
little. My mother knew a little because her father taught English,
but they were not fluent. They could not get jobs in mainstream
American society.</p>
<p>
Q: So, as a young couple in a
foreign land, where did they go when they first arrived in New York
City?<br><br>Chin: They lived in Chinatown, because my mother’s
older sister had already married a Gold Mountain man, so they lived
in Chinatown for awhile, and then they moved to Brooklyn.</p>
<p>
Q: Why did they do that? Why did
they not choose to stay in Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chin: My father knew about
Chinatown since 1934. Well, actually since 1936. He arrived in ’34
in Boston, but he was in New York’s Chinatown by ’36, and
he knew about the gang wars. He knew about the Tongs, and he didn’t
want us to grow up in Chinatown, in that type of community.
</p>
<p>
Q: So when were you born, if you
don’t mind my asking?</p>
<p>
[laughter]</p>
<p>
Chin: I was born in 1952.</p>
<p>
Q: In Brooklyn.</p>
<p>
Chin: Yes.
</p>
<p>
Q:
Where in Brooklyn?</p>
<p>
Chin: In Bushwick.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, okay. Okay. So describe
for us your childhood in Brooklyn. Was there a lot of Chinese where
you grew up at the time? Did you feel, strange, or different?</p>
<p>
Chin: There were virtually no
Chinese in Bushwick. We had about two families, within---I remember
one family called the Wongs, and that story is also in the book,
Paper Son, they lived about a block and half away from us, and
another family a few blocks away from us. And that was it for the
Chinese families. There was one Japanese family.
</p>
<p>
Most of the Chinese families that
lived in Brooklyn had a life such that it was a routine to go to New
York’s Chinatown, every Sunday. My father’s laundry was
open seven---six days a week, and on Sunday we went into Chinatown.
By the time he learned English he became interpreter at the True
Light Lutheran Church on Worth Street in Chinatown. So that was our
social life; in the fifties in Brooklyn we were very sheltered. You
know. Of course, that had to do with the era, too, it was the era of
McCarthyism, and we were Chinese and it was not very popular then, to
be Chinese, so we led very isolated lives, except
for---socially---except for one day a week going to Chinatown, and we
would go to Church, and then afterwards we’d go visit people.
</p>
<p>
Sometimes we went to my mother’s
shop, during the summertime when we had no school.</p>
<p>
Q: Regarding school, what was
that like, being one of very few Asian kids? Were you outcast, were
you treated in any different way?</p>
<p>
Chin: No, essentially, a lot of
fun [laughs]. We were very, we were different. And I think at that
time Asians had a very, we were known for being very diligent, very
studious. My brother and I did very well in school, and, you know, we
always ended up teachers’ pets, and there was no outcast---none
of that at all. You know, we were well-received.</p>
<p>
Q:
So your parents never at any point considered moving back to Hong
Kong or going back to China.
</p>
<p>
Chin: No. No. My father, in
fact, never even went back for a visit, since 1934. He hadn’t
left the country except during World War II, when he was in the U.S.
Navy. Never went to China. He always said that he would, he wanted to
show me his old village, but he never did. And my mother has only one
sister left in Hong Kong. She, my mother has gone back about three or
four times, to Hong Kong, and she also went to China on a tour, a
three-week tour of China. But, um, she has never considered moving
back there permanently, to retire.
</p>
<p>
Q: So, growing up, your father,
early on opened a laundry shop?<br><br>Chin: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: And what did you mother do at
this time?</p>
<p>
Chin: Ah, when I was three—but
by 1955, when my brother was five and and I was three, she started
work at the shops, at the sweatshops in Chinatown, the garment
factories. She had learned from women in church that there is work in
Chinatown, and so once my brother started school, she would take my
brother to school, which was conveniently next to the subway station,
and then she would just go onto the subway and go to Chinatown to
work. And I was three, and I stayed home with my father at the
laundry.</p>
<p>
Q: Did your mother work in Hong
Kong?
</p>
<p>
Chin: No.</p>
<p>
Q: So this was her first job.</p>
<p>
Chin: That was her first job.</p>
<p>
Q:
So you grew up in a laundrymat---</p>
<p>
Chin: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: What was that like?</p>
<p>
Chin: Well, you know, when
you’re a child, you don’t realize any difference. Ah, it,
you know, we just thought that ah, you know, we had known other
Chinese children who grew up in the back of laundries, so that was
perfectly normal. We knew that other people had stores. I mean,
there, in Bushwick, there were a whole street of storefront buildings
with two flights above, and you know, one Italian family that we were
very close with, or very friendly with, you know, ran a grocery store
in the front and lived in the back. Next door was a candy store, and
they lived in the back and also one flight above.</p>
<p>
<br>So I don’t think
we---you know, meaning my brother and I---thought that it was
unusual. It was---our laundry was another store.</p>
<p>
Q: So you didn’t compare
yourself to, say, your Caucasian-American friends, and say, “Well,
why am I in the back room of a laundrymat?”</p>
<p>
Chin: No, cause they were in the
back of a grocery [laughter]. No, we didn’t do that. It was a
working class neighborhood, Italians, Irish, and so everybody---some
of our best friends lived in the back of stores.</p>
<p>
Q: Where was your father’s
shop located?<br><br>Chin: In Bushwick.</p>
<p>
Q: Oh, it was in Bushwick. Okay.
So your mother worked in Chinatown, took your brother to school
there----</p>
<p>
<br>
Chin:
Right.</p>
<p>
Q: And then---</p>
<p>
Chin: Took my brother to school
in Brooklyn, and then went on the train to Chinatown.</p>
<p>
Q: Now, was she a trained---</p>
<p>
Chin: Seamstress?</p>
<p>
Q: Seamstress, before?</p>
<p>
Chin: No, she learned on the
job.
</p>
<p>
Q: Why did she choose to be a
seamstress?</p>
<p>
Chin: That was one of the few
jobs open to women. You know, it was---it’s also, it’s
very interesting because it was also very, it was a growth---you
know, the Chinatown garment industry was growing at that time, and it
starts with, you know, the garment shops used to be in midtown in the
twenties where FIT is, Fashion Institute, and they were being, the
rent was going up, it was in the city, so they, the bosses of those
shops decided to look for cheaper space downtown, meaning Chinatown.
Chinatown was cheap at that time.</p>
<p>
<br>So they opened up, they set
up shops in Chinatown, in the ‘50s, and that was when my mother
found out about them, and they advertised for Chinese women who were,
who after the war were allowed to come and join their husbands, and
then, you know, these Chinese women would work in the shops, but,
then of course they still---You know, Chinese women, as most women,
always sewed for their own children at home, so it was not, you know,
it was something that they probably knew how to do, you know,
instinctively. Now they did it in shops for other people to sell.
Because they still had to cook---you know, even though they sewed
outside of the home rather than inside the home. So, after they
sewed, they still had to shop, so you need grocery
stores, and then your Chinese community started
building up. You know, before it was basically a bachelors’
community.
</p>
<p>
Q: Alright, give me a sense of
your, kind of Chinese-slash-American life. At home, what language did
you speak?<br><br>Chin: We speak Chinese.</p>
<p>
Q: You spoke Cantonese at home?</p>
<p>
Chin: Yes.</p>
<p>
Q: And then, outside, obviously
you spoke English, so you never spoke English at home?</p>
<p>
Chin: No.</p>
<p>
Q: Was that something that your
parents tried to enforce?</p>
<p>
Chin: Yes. My father thought
that we should know Chinese. Again, this is during the ‘50s,
the McCarthy era, when the government was focusing on Chinese people
who may be Communist. You know, my father was one of the people who
may have been deported, for his writing. And he thought that if we
ever were deported, it’s best to know your language, too. So,
we, for awhile we weren’t sure if we were going to be deported,
so if we ever went back to China, it would be an advantage, to our
advantage to know the language.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was that common at the time,
because I meet so many Chinese-Americans, who really don’t
speak Chinese at all.</p>
<p>
Chin: I meet a lot of them who
don’t speak Chinese, also. Most of the people I know who don’t
speak Chinese wonder why their parents never taught them. [laughs] I
guess it’s the home education, home values.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: So on weekends you went to
Chinatown, you said. Give us a sense, a flavor of Chinatown at the
time. How big was the community, and was there a sense of a Chinese
community in Chinatown at the time?</p>
<p>
Chin: Yes. There was a---it was
much more vibrant than it is now. You know, you had a lot of
children---I mean, you have children now, but it was a developing
community, and that’s what made it different. Because the ‘50s,
you know, before the ‘50s you didn’t have that Chinatown,
you had a bachelor community. You know, that was the exclusion era.
You know, women were not---Chinese people weren’t allowed to
come. If they came, if they married back home, they weren’t
allowed to bring their wives. So by the ‘50s, you had little
children running around, and it was very different.
</p>
<p>
Q: And did everybody seem to get
along, the Chinese, the Italians, and other different immigrants?</p>
<p>
Chin: I don’t recall the
Italians. It wasn’t until much later, in the ‘70s, that
Chinatown expanded to Little Italy. And of course there were turf
wars because of it. But back in the ‘50s, Chinatown was very
small, very----You know, my mother would bring us there. Sometimes
she would shop and tell us to sit on the stoop, and she would go
shopping, and we would just sit there and play with the other kids
who were sitting there. And she could come back an hour later and we
would still be there. I don’t think mothers do that anymore.
</p>
<p>
So you have that type of thing.
And of course this was also before the gang wars heightened. You
know, by 1965 the immigration laws changed, and so you had a lot of
gang, a lot more gang wars, and it was just a totally different scene
from when everything seemed very ideal.
</p>
<p>
Q: So give us an idea of the
working conditions of the sweatshops at the time. So, how many do you
think were around at that time, when your mother worked?</p>
<p>
Chin: In the ‘50s, there
were probably in the teens. Less than, less than twenty in the ‘50s.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: And the owners were mostly
Chinese?
</p>
<p>
Chin: Ah, Jewish, some were
Chinese. I’m not sure what the breakdown is, but there were
very few because it just started. You know, these shops were closed
in the twenties along the, in the midtown, and they had just moved to
Chinatown, so everything was new and there weren’t that many.
It was by piecework. So you were paid for your output. And it was
very, ah, it was survival of the fittest. So if you didn’t
produce and the boss saw that, you know, well, what are you doing
sitting at the sewing machine, I can give it to someone who can
produce more. So if you were old, or you didn’t learn as
quickly, you lost your place at the sewing machine, you got kicked
out.
</p>
<p>
Q: So what could your mother
make, on average, a day?</p>
<p>
Chin: A day? Ah, not much,
probably seven, ten dollars a week. At that time. You know, in the
‘50s.</p>
<p>
Q: So, that plus your father’s
laundry business was enough to give your family a comfortable living,
or---</p>
<p>
Chin: Not comfortable, minimal.
But, you know, we were rich in other ways, though, you know. You
know, we learned Chinese, which a lot of others, other
Chinese-Americans didn’t. We have a richer Chinese heritage. In
that sense we were almost, more than comfortable. But financially,
our physical comforts were not that great.
</p>
<p>
Q: Was your mother glad to have
to work, or was it a very difficult job, something she enjoyed at
all?<br><br>Chin: I think it got her away from the house, and she
liked that. I can imagine going crazy in the back of a laundry with
two kids. So I think she, and I know she was definitely glad to have
the extra money to buy things, to buy toys for us and little extra
things for herself.</p>
<p>
Q:
So how many hours a day would she work?<br><br>Chin: At that time,
the shops were open like twelve, fifteen hours a day. She didn’t
work---she would leave early in the morning when she took my brother
to school, and then she would come back many times after I was
asleep. And then at one point she stopped because I didn’t know
who she was. [laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: Wow. Do you look back and
feel like you missed a lot of time with your mother, or do you---</p>
<p>
Chin: I probably missed a lot of
time with her, but I had a very good relationship with my father,
and, you know, Paper Son is based on my father’s story. We
wrote the book together, you know, I published it after he died,
but---so, you know, I missed one parent, but I had a relationship
with my other, with my father, and since my father died my mother and
I have been much closer.</p>
<p>
Q: I know that you’ve done
a lot of studies and work on the garment union in Chinatown, so give
us kind of a background of how this came about, how was the union
formed?<br><br>Chin: Well, as I said earlier, the shops didn’t
move into Chinatown until the 50s, when they were being priced out of
midtown, and there were probably only about twenty, less then twenty,
throughout the ‘50s. In the ‘60s, they gradually grew
because families were allowed to come over, but the major change was
in ’65 when the change in immigration laws took place, and then
you had mass immigration. But the shops themselves started to get
organized by ’55, probably, the first shop probably started in
’53 or ’54, and by ’55 the union, who was then
under Jay Mazur, who was assistant manager of Local 23-25, and that
local was mostly Chinese, mostly Chinese at that time. He was the one
that started a Chinese newsletter. He had to hire someone from San
Francisco to do the newsletter by hand. They broadcast by radio into
the shops. Everything they had in English they had to translate into
Chinese, to let Chinese workers be aware that there were benefits to
be had as workers. And that started in the ‘50s.</p>
<p>
My mother joined the union
herself in ’57. So basically they went out on an all-out
campaign to notify Chinese workers, sending representatives into the
shops to tell workers that the union is
there,
you pay a fee, and you’ll get medical coverage, you’ll
get, you know, holidays, vacations, and since my mother knew a little
English, she was able to help interpret for the representatives who
came up. They call them “business agents” now, when
you’re in charge of that specific shop. They had a different
term for them before.</p>
<p>
Q: Was there any threats from,
say, the shop owners to tell the workers not to join the union, was
there any pressure?<br><br>Chin: In the beginning there weren’t,
but I think when the shop owners realized that they also had to pay
part of the benefits, like if Social Security, not Social Security,
well, yeah, Social Security, if it was reported pay rather than cash,
you know, if the worker earned retirement FICA, then the shop owner,
the employer also had to pay part of it, and not only to the
government in the taxes, but also to the union, the union medical
benefits.</p>
<p>
And at one point, at a certain
point, when they got tired of paying these things, then they started
telling the workers, “Oh, don’t join the union, they just
want to take your money.” And so, there was conflict, which was
what led to the rally in 1982, that mass strike in Chinatown.</p>
<p>
In fact, this is one of the early
pictures.</p>
<p>
Q: Which one is your mother? Can
you point to her?</p>
<p>
Chin: This is my mother. This is
probably early ‘70s.</p>
<p>
Q: And what is your mother’s
full name?<br><br>
</p>
<p>
[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]</p>
<p>
<br>Chin: Wing Fong Chin. And
she was the shop representative, which meant that she helped her
colleagues to, to get union, to fill out papers, if they had to pay
union dues, she collected all the dues, she was willing to make the
trip uptown, or not uptown, to midtown, and she helped them
to get all the paperwork done, because most of her
colleagues didn’t speak a word, and she didn’t speak that
much, but she knew enough to help out.
</p>
<p>
Q: So was it role that she
volunteered for, or kind of just----</p>
<p>
Chin: My mother, you know, in
1955, and when she started work, she was probably, well, she was in
her mid-twenties, mid- to late-twenties, so in today’s words,
she was a, what do you call it, she was ambitious. She was young. And
so, she was anxious to make more money. And so, by piecework, you
know, that means that if you are sewing one strap, they might give
you a penny. But if she found that another shop gave you two pennies,
you know, for sewing one, then she would go to this other shop, and
because there were so few shops at that time, you know, within the
year or two she had covered all the shops. So you had these union
representatives coming to the shops, telling workers, “Join the
union, you’ll get more benefits, you’ll get medical, and
vacation and sick pay.” So every shop they went to, eventually
they saw my mother’s face, and they offered her the role of
being shop representative. And so she would bring the problems of the
shop to the union.
</p>
<p>
Q: Did you mother formally study
English after she came to America?
</p>
<p>
Chin: No. She learned some on
the job. She would make speeches for the union, and of course the
union would write them out for her, she rehearsed them, she learned
from there----a lot of times she relied on me, and I would look over
the speech, tell her what it says, and if there was something wrong,
she would say, “Oh, no,” and she would correct it.</p>
<p>
<br>So she learned on the job
again. Like her sewing.
</p>
<p>
Q: So what were the major
conflicts at the time, between the union, the workers, and the shop
owners? I know you talked about it briefly a little while ago, but
what was the union aiming, what was their goal?
</p>
<p>
Chin: The union---the goal of
the union was for better working conditions. You know, these
women worked from seven o’clock in the
morning---my mother did not, but she knew that the shops were open at
seven in the morning, and women who lived in Chinatown would be there
at seven in the morning, working there until midnight.</p>
<p>
Q: But that was because of the
shop owners demanded that, or because you get paid piece, and
therefore the more you work----</p>
<p>
Chin: You got paid by piece.
Right. It was very incentive-oriented. The more you worked, the more
you got paid.</p>
<p>
Q: And because the pay was so
low, therefore everybody had to work so much, so long, to get a
certain amount of money.</p>
<p>
Chin: And the union, one of the
goals of the union was to set a minimum wage, so that, you know, that
piece work, being paid by piece work is demoralizing. You know, this
is what you’re worth, you can sew twenty straps, here’s
twenty cents. Whereas the union tried to follow American labor
standards, with a minimum wage, with a nine-to-five. It was, you
know, they had punch cards---time cards rather, where they punched in
and out. Ah, they wanted to---and they would check. You know, if the
union signed up members there, then the shop, also had to join. You
know, if you were a union member you could not work for a non-union
shop. And so the boss had to pay dues, too. And the workers
were---and so the boss and the workers were unionized, and the bosses
were required, they were expected rather, to keep their part of the
agreement, you know, that there would be a minimum wage, there would
be nine-to-five, you know, workers clock in, clock out, that they
would get their holiday pays, their sick pays, and certain other
benefits which have changed and increased over the years.</p>
<p>
Q: So at what point did you
mother switch over from a piece-by-piece payment to getting an hourly
minimum wage?</p>
<p>
Chin: That is something that in
theory happened, I don’t know when, but in practice never did
happen. Even now you find piece work, so---there was, there were time
cards and I remember as
a child when we
were on vacation from school we would go to the factory with my
mother, and there would be these punch, time cards with the time
machines, and we would go there early in the morning, and my mother
would start working immediately. Come nine o’clock the boss
would tell the kids, “Okay, punch in your mother’s---“
and everybody punched in their mother’s. Five o’clock we
punched everybody out, and then everybody just continued working
anyway. And then, they got paid by the piece, they worked the longer
hours, got paid a little more, and when the union officials reviewed
the time cards and how much you got paid, and they say, “Gee,
you worked nine to five, how come you only got, how come you got so
little?” Then the worker would---you know, they would spot
check, they didn’t check everybody. But then the worker who
happened to be picked would just say, “Well, I left in the
middle of the day, I didn’t really do nine to five, I had to
leave to pick up my son because he was sick,” and they, you
know, they made excuses for that.
</p>
<p>
They never, in practice, it never
was minimum wage.</p>
<p>
Q: So your mother accepted that,
even though she was a union member, kind of went along with the
system, seems like everybody went along with the system, and one way
to please a union as well as to have a little bit more benefit than
to not belong in the union----</p>
<p>
Chin: Right, because there were
benefits, you know, when you come in, you know, most of these women
are from the countryside. They were not from Hong Kong for the most
part, they were from agricultural, from the country where they worked
the fields. You know, to have a, to have shoes, not to be barefoot in
working the fields in the country, to have a sewing machine in front
of you, was already progress.</p>
<p>
The concept of unions is not
something inherently Chinese. So, joining the union, minimum wage
didn’t mean anything to the women either. I don’t---I’m
not sure that many of them really understood it. But they knew that
they were getting health benefits. What could be greater than that?
They got some vacation pay. And so, a lot of the women never really,
ah, never really complained about the piecework.</p>
<p>
<br>
Q:
But what did it mean for your mother, and your family? Did it make a
difference for your livelihood?<br><br>Chin: We had, I guess at that
stage we had extra toys. You know. You know, there are people who say
that it was child labor---another thing that the union did not permit
was for children to be in the shop because there were machines, and
you can very easily hurt yourself. Some girls came up with their
mothers and they helped them sew. I helped my mother sew a few times.
When she made these suspenders, these straps, she fed them through a
tube and inverted them, and we helped her in that way, and, but that
was called child labor also. <br><br>
</p>
<p>
But, you know, when you’re
eight, ten years old, you don’t think of it. We would help
everybody, to make more money. And if we---we had this game, that,
you know, let’s see who can invert more straps, to turn them
right side out. And, you know, it was a game to us. And then if the
union happened to knock on the doors, we all rushed into the
bathroom. In one case we were all sent down the fire escape. [laughs]</p>
<p>
Q: And did you, at any point,
think that the working conditions your mother worked under were
appalling, or bad, or----</p>
<p>
Chin: You know, it never
occurred. But you know, children, again, go through such
circumstances that they don’t, their resilience is so strong
they don’t think that it’s bad. You know, even when I
look back, I remember doing some of that work, but I never thought of
it as child labor. You know, especially in the Chinatown shops, you
know, if I were in South America working twelve hours, and that
twelve hours, like some South American children do, in Ecuador, in
Mexico, where American garments are exported to be made now, that is
real child labor. But what we were doing, was, was a game. But the
union did consider it unhealthy for us to be there, for children to
be there.</p>
<p>
Q: And even after acquiring more
English skills, your mother never thought of switching fields, or
your father, also?</p>
<p>
Chin:
No. My father worked in a laundry all his life. But, you know, he
was a writer. He wrote poetry. He published. He had other things in
mind. And when business was slow, he would write, he would read, so
he was never---he was motivated to write, he’s published
hundreds of poems in Chinese. Some of them are translated in the
book, Paper Son, but he was never motivated to learn English to get,
just to get a better job. You know, he knew his language, he worked
with his language, and he was good in it.
</p>
<p>
Same with my mother. She, as far
as my mother was concerned, this was a job. She wanted to make more
money to help out with the bills, to have extra for toys and
luxuries, and that was her goal. But, very simple for those days. For
post-war attitude. It was just having a happy family. And again,
after what she’d been through with the Japanese during World
War II, she wasn’t, you know, you’re talking about a
different era. You know, she was happy to be in the home peacefully.
She was ah, you know, you compare it with today’s woman, she
would be called unambitious. But, you know, considering the times,
you know, she was very content.
</p>
<p>
And she did actually make her own
way up the union. She, you know, from the shop representative she
became chairperson of the board at Local 23-25.</p>
<p>
Q: Now, how many members are we
talking about, Local 23-25?</p>
<p>
Chin: Now?</p>
<p>
Q: Then, at that time.</p>
<p>
Chin: Then, I don’t know.
At the height, okay, which was about in the late ‘70s, 1980,
1982, about 20,000 members. And they all went on strike. In fact,
these are strike photos. This was a rally held in Columbus Park, and
this is my mother, handing out caps and buttons, telling women not to
work because the bosses refused to sign the three-year contract for
better wages and more days off, you know, other benefits. And so,
this is before the rally and she’s handing out caps to
everybody. And when the rally started, she was one of the
spokespeople on behalf of the workers.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: What were your feelings
towards her, as an activist?</p>
<p>
Chin: I was very proud of her.
You know, one of the things that my mother did was---well, my brother
and I knew that she probably couldn’t sit in the back of a
laundry all her life. And we kind of felt bad that she was just
sewing every day. And then when this extra activity at the union
started, we were very happy for her.
</p>
<p>
This was at NYU. And this was the
annual memorial service at the Triangle Shirtwaist fire building.
</p>
<p>
Q: And when she spoke, she
always spoke in English?</p>
<p>
Chin: Ah, depending on the
situation. Depending on the audience. At the rally, when the workers
went on strike, she spoke Chinese because there were 20,000 Chinese
workers. You know, a memorial for the Triangle Shirtwaist, held, and
they knew that the New York Times would be there, she read a speech
in English.</p>
<p>
Q: Now, was it difficult to get
women to join the union at the time?</p>
<p>
Chin: No. It was, it’s
difficult to get them to join now. At that time, when you---In the
‘50s, you had less than twenty shops. By the time you got to
your ‘60s, early ‘70s, you had 150, 200. And of course
the union was more active. It had to be, to cover all the shops. By
the time you get to the late ‘70s, the union was onto all the
violations, because every time they knocked on the door, it took time
to open. I remember going to visit my mother at the shop, and my
mother said, “Knock one, stop, knock twice,” and then the
boss would open the shop and let us in. They weren’t supposed
to work on weekends. But if anyone knocked otherwise, they would not
open the doors.
</p>
<p>
So the union was onto all the
violations, and in the late ‘70s, I think the middle or late
“70s, they got the U.S. Department of Labor to come and look at
situations, and it was well-advertised at
that
time, there were articles all over the place about sweatshop
violations, and they called them, and that was where the term
“sweatshop” started, they were no longer garment
factories. They were called sweatshops by the late ‘70s, and
there was increasing pressure on the bosses to correct these
violations. And it was costing the bosses. So by the ‘70s the
bosses didn’t want to join the union. It was, the union was
good for the women, and some of the men, but it was the bosses who
didn’t want it.</p>
<p>
And so by 1982, when you had some
500, 550 shops and 20,000 workers, you had a mass strike, you know,
‘cause the bosses refused to sign that union contract. The
contract was signed every three years. The bosses refused to sign.
They were betting that Chinese women are going to work. You know,
they opened the---they wanted women to come to work. They wanted
women to come to work, and they counted on the reputation that
Chinese people work hard. We’re not going to go on strike. You
know, Chinese people don’t strike. If there’s work,
they’re going to do it, because you know, they’re used to
starvation in China. You know, if there’s work, you have to
work.</p>
<p>
Q: But by the ‘70s, who
were most of the owners? Were they Chinese, or----</p>
<p>
Chin: By then, there were Chinese
workers, also---</p>
<p>
Q: No, owners.</p>
<p>
Chin: Oh, yes, Chinese owners as
well. And the Jewish population of owners phased out. And that also
made one of the differences. The Chinese owners would play up their
being Chinese, they would say, “PHRASE IN CANTONESE (translates
to “we’re all Chinese”)” you know, “Don’t
listen to that union.”
</p>
<p>
Q:---“We’re all
Chinese.”</p>
<p>
Chin: Right. We’re all
Chinese. We’re on the same side, and they would hire family,
you know, or hire your sister or hire your daughter, she needs a
part-time job. So everything was family.
They
played on the Chinese concept of family being all together. And so by
the time, and this was the late ‘70s, and you had your Chinese
entrepreneurs coming over, and they had a little more money than your
past population of Chinese coming over, you know, and, so they would
play up that part and by ’82 they said, “We’re not
signing the contract. Come to work.”
</p>
<p>
And they thought that Chinese
women, because we’re all family, were going to go to work. And
the women proved them wrong. They went on strike. And that was that
rally, those rally pictures that I showed you---</p>
<p>
Q: And what was the result of
this strike?<br><br>Chin: That, eventually they signed the contract
again, with better wages, and more days off, more medical coverage. I
don’t know offhand that particular contract, but every time
there’s a contract there are better, you know, there’s
more that the workers benefit by.
</p>
<p>
Q: So the union won, pretty
much.</p>
<p>
Chin: Yeah, right. They had, it
was all over the papers. They held a mass rally in Columbus Park.
They had a dragon, they had a priest, before, you know, to bless the
rally, before the whole rally started. Then, talking about what the
union does for workers and giving a history of the union and how far
it’s come, they urged, you know, bosses to sign that contract,
members, “Don’t go to work,” and they marched
throughout Chinatown with the dragon, and that started in the
morning, by noontime about 90 percent of the shops had signed up.
Because they realized that, you know, if the union tells them “don’t
work,” they’re not going to work.
</p>
<p>
And that was something they
didn’t expect. They expected that Chinese women will work if
you give them work.
</p>
<p>
Q: Let’s talk about you
for a minute. As a child, did you expect to go as far as you did in
education?</p>
<p>
Chin:
Well, I don’t consider myself having gone that far in
education. I have my master’s, I started a PhD, but I dropped
the PhD program because my father had written his memoir and I was
torn between doing a thesis, a PhD thesis and publishing a book, and
you know, helping him to write it and edit it and publish, and I, you
know, I can’t have it all. I dropped the PhD, I was happy with
my master’s, I knew that I could teach, you know, with a
master’s, and I had been told that a PhD is important,
depending---is important to teaching depending on what area you’re
going into. I had also been told, you know, if you publish a book,
and you keep, and I have a second book, that if you keep writing that
is as good as any PhD. Maybe not, maybe not in research, you know,
maybe not in teaching PhD courses, but it certainly, in my purposes
of working with freshmen, sophomores, you know, with undergraduates,
it’s good enough, and I keep up, I keep up my research, and so,
so academically, so degree-wise, I haven’t gone that far, but
I’m very happy with the things that I learned in my research.</p>
<p>
Q: But there was never a doubt
that you would one day end up as a seamstress like your mother.</p>
<p>
Chin: Oh, no.</p>
<p>
Q: Why was that?</p>
<p>
Chin: I think my father
inculcated the thought in both of us, well, maybe not so much in my
brother. My brother had to go into something practical. He’s an
engineer, but for a girl, my father was always old-fashioned: “You
can study anything you want, because you’re not the major
income-earner. But whatever you study, be good at it, and you’ll
always have a job, you can always teach it.”
</p>
<p>
And so I majored in philosophy,
actually, and then I went into Asian philosophy [Should I repeat it
for the noise?] and I went into Asian philosophy, and ah, and I’ve
always enjoyed it. And so, so I never once thought that I would be a
seamstress. There were times when I didn’t know what I would do
with a philosophy degree, but I enjoyed it. And I teach.</p>
<p>
Q:
So in your research, give us like a brief sketch of how the garment
industry has changed in Chinatown. You said in the late ‘70s or
early ‘80s was the peak. As much as 20,000 workers---</p>
<p>
Chin: ---dwei (right)---</p>
<p>
Q: ---five hundred sweatshops---</p>
<p>
Chin: ---right---</p>
<p>
Q: ---and then what happened?
When did it decline?</p>
<p>
Chin: Well, that was 1982, when
the 20,000 workers went on strike, roughly five to six hundred
workshops. And that’s an estimate, because one of the tricks of
the trade, if you were going to open a garment factory, was that you
would open it up, it would quickly change hands, sell it to a
relative, and then change the name so that the union can’t
catch up with you and say, you know, “You’re supposed to
be, you’re supposed to join the union.” Then you get away
from the union, you get away from the taxes, and you kept switching
all the time. So that’s why these figures are roughly five to
six hundred shops, and we don’t know for sure.</p>
<p>
<br>And that was basically the
heyday. Since then, you know, not just to get away from the union,
but also to get away from the rising rents in Chinatown, because the
real estate prices boomed and the same things that happened to these
shops, to the Jewish shop owners in midtown, causing them to move to
Chinatown for lower rents, this same situation is happening to
Chinese shop owners, causing them to close up their shops and move to
Sunset Park, to Queens, to Borough Park, and that’s the
situation with Manhattan’s Chinatown. That they’re moving
out of Manhattan. Right now, there are probably about, or after 9/11,
three months afterwards, the New York Times reported that they had,
there were roughly one hundred and forty-six shops left. I just
talked to my mother briefly, and asked her if she had any idea, and
she said roughly one hundred, one fifty. I doubt that it’s one
fifty, because things have only gotten bad. So three months after
9/11 it was 146, so today probably a hundred shops.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Q: So, prior to September 11,
what do you think, say the max?</p>
<p>
Chin: The max was in 1982, with
five hundred, five fifty shops, maybe.</p>
<p>
Q: But, from ’82<b> </b>to
September 11 is quite a few years. The garment industry had been in
decline.</p>
<p>
Chin: It had been in decline
because of imports. You know, there was NAFTA, the free trade
agreement, and the exporting all the jobs, and importing a lot----you
know, you export the clothing jobs, and then you get cheap clothing
made in China, made in, you know, Mexico, and you get that import.
You get that type of trade. And that took away a lot of jobs. Right
now, I did interviews last spring in April, 2003, and the estimate,
depending on who you talk to, was that about 85-90 percent of our
clothing is imports.</p>
<p>
<br>So it was in decline. The
last year they cele---the government just celebrated the tenth
anniversary of the trade, of the Free Trade Agreement. So that was
since 1993. Last year was the tenth anniversary. So this all happened
before 2000, before 9/11 2001. And it was because of imports. 9/11
was just the last, was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
</p>
<p>
Q: And how did that.---</p>
<p>
[END
TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO; BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE]</p>
<p>
Q: We left off with the decline
of the garment industry in Chinatown. So why don’t we pick up
from that? You had said that even prior to September 11 of 2001 the
garment industry was already in decline in Chinatown---</p>
<p>
Chin: Because of imports, and
so, then, NAFTA, the free trade agreements didn’t help. So even
by the 80s, you know, your height was 1982, even by the mid-80s,
imports were at that time about 50 percent already. And then they
signed NAFTA in 1993, they just celebrated the ten year, tenth
anniversary, and imports now are about 90 percent, 85-90 percent. And
by some people that
I spoke to, that I
interviewed, expect that by 2005, by next year, that it’ll be
100 percent imports.</p>
<p>
Q: Back in the days when your
mother was very active in the union, at the peak of the sweatshops,
were most of those products sold in America, or were they exported at
all?<br><br>Chin: No, they were sold in America, and that was part
of, part of the situation, and it’s nothing really that simple.
There’s no one answer to it all. You know, in the 50s, in the
60s, you didn’t have brand names, you didn’t have your
Calvin Klein stuff, your Gap, or, you may have had names, but they
were very few, and most you had these stores that sold garments, like
Lerner’s, Joyce Lesley, you know, a garment, something similar
to what you would find along 14<sup>th</sup> Street in Union Square
these days, where you’re a store, and they sold all types of
garments. But as the specialty garments, now you have a big gap, you
have a big industry in the Gap clothing, in Calvin Klein, and Gap
decided to send their stuff, I think they send it to South America,
to Central American, you know, Calvin Klein, and these big names
won’t use a little Chinatown sweatshop. So they’re the
ones who, you know, did a lot of injury to the garment industry
before even 9/11. And so you had those stores, you know, and other
brand names making their clothing outside of the country because it
was cheaper.</p>
<p>
Q: But how did 9/11, you were
saying earlier, was like a final straw for the garment industry in
Chinatown?</p>
<p>
Chin: So the garment industry
was already weakened with NAFTA, because it was already ten years by
2003, but NAFTA was signed ten years earlier, but by, okay, then
after the rally, and the rising rates, okay, you had the rising rates
in Chinatown, rent, and so those industry, those garment shops, who
were priced out of Chinatown moved their shops to Brooklyn, to
Queens, and so the union couldn’t get to them as easily,
because before, you had all your shops in Chinatown and you just went
from one shop to another, you know, let’s check out your
records, you know, and the business agents did what they had to do.
They couldn’t do that anymore with shops moving out to the
outer boroughs, to Brooklyn and Queens.</p>
<p>
<br>
So
that weakened it. Then, with 9/11, you know, traffic was closed, the
whole lower Manhattan was closed to traffic for quite a few months,
and trucks couldn’t get by. You know, these garments had to be
delivered. They couldn’t get them. So they had to, they had
garments that needed to be made, to be put together, that they
couldn’t get to the shops, so they had to go elsewhere. Or else
they went out of business. A lot of them went, went out of business.
A lot of them went out of business because of that. So that was the
last straw. That really did not help.</p>
<p>
Q: Now, has your mother
retired?<br><br>Chin: She retired in 1995.</p>
<p>
Q: And what does she do now?</p>
<p>
Chin: She works part time in a
union office that helps newcomers to the union, who ask about
benefits, and so like, from there she gets a feel of what the
business is like now. And it doesn’t look very rosy. You know,
members, potential members come, and they ask, you know, what
benefits are there, what are the union dues. When they find out the
union dues and they look at the benefits they receive, they weigh the
two and they decide it’s not worth it. Health benefits are the
most attractive. Everybody needs health coverage. But, you know, the
newcomers are not like the company that met the newcomers in her day.
In her day they were much more honest. You know, immigrants in my
mother’s generation, or even a couple of decades after her,
would never think to go on welfare. They were too proud to collect
money, to collect a handout. But the immigrants coming over now weigh
the two, well, I have to pay all these union dues, I get health
benefits, but I have to give in so much, can I ever make the minimum
required to keep my membership? You know, they have all sorts of
rules about that. And they decide, well, if I just don’t keep
any money in the bank, I can collect welfare, and work off the books.
And I ought not to go for union work. I can get Medicare, Medicaid,
for the needy. I can get Medicaid, I don’t need the union .
</p>
<p>
And so nobody joins.
</p>
<p>
Q:
So what do you think is the likely experience of a new immigrant, a
woman who just arrives from China, with absolutely no language
skills, maybe can sew a little. What are her options if she wanted to
stay in New York City or in America?<br><br>Chin; There aren’t
that many options. I mean, the garment industry is really, really at
a low. I don’t know if anyone expects them to recover. There
will always be some type of garment industry. But you have designers
here, and they’ll always want someone to make something. You
know, you can’t just send something, samples, or you can’t
just send things overseas all the time. You do need some type of
garment industry, but it will probably be specialized.</p>
<p>
A lot of the women who used to be
in the garment industry, who used to sew, are moving into health
care, you know, to help, it’s a different union, they help,
they don’t call them health care workers---I think they’re
called home work, home care. They take care of the elderly at home.
They do a lot of that. They get training, they learn a bit of
English. So they get benefits there.</p>
<p>
Q: Do you think it’s more
difficult for a new immigrant now to arrive in American than at the
time your parents did?</p>
<p>
Chin: Oh, yeah.</p>
<p>
Q: How so?</p>
<p>
Chin: Ah, basically because when
my parents came, especially if you’re talking about the garment
industry, when my mother came, the industry was growing. It was the
fifties, and she started work in the fifties, and there wasn’t
a shop, she had her pick of shops to go to. She saw the union, she
saw all these benefits, and then she saw the big rally in 1982, and
then she gradually saw the decline---shops moving to Queens, to
Sunset Park.
</p>
<p>
Of course, you always have your
advantages of that, too, because if it weren’t for the shops,
there probably would not be such a developed Chinatown in Sunset Park
and elsewhere, because where the shops are, that’s where your
women are, and then families start moving there to be
closer to the work, and then, you’re closer to
the work, you have to buy groceries after you work to bring home to
cook. Then you have grocery stores, and then you have children, and
then you have toy stores, and then----So that work, that garment
industry develops that community. But for a new immigrant, it’s
very difficult. The garment---they arrive at a time not when the
garment industry is growing, but at a time when it’s declining.
You see, the union, to be covered with medical benefits, you have to
make a certain amount each quarter. With piece work, there’s no
way you can make that much.</p>
<p>
And the government has had
programs---federally-funded programs to teach new immigrants how to
sew, but the work has to be there, too. You know, when all the jobs
are being exported out of the country, you know, what do you expect
the workers to sew?</p>
<p>
Q: So now, looking back on your
parents’ life, has the way they lived or their experiences in
America shaped your thinking and your professional life at the
moment?</p>
<p>
Chin: Um, I’m not sure if
it’s shaped it that much. As far as shaping is concerned,
probably growing up more with my father than with my mother, because
my mother was in the shop all the time, I took an interest in the
things my father was interested in, like poetry, philosophy, writing.
So that shaped my interests. But in general, I just find this whole
Chinese----this whole immigration, even how the shops contributed to
the building of Chinatown---I just find the whole thing fascinating.
You know, how things fall in place. You know, ‘cause it was not
just the shops moving to Chinatown and women working and then needing
grocery stores afterwards. It had to be the right time and the right
place.
</p>
<p>
My father worked in a laundry.
And, um, it was at a time when his laundry closed, because of wash
and wear, permanent press, and people doing more of their own
laundry, that freed the men to open up the grocery shops in
Chinatown. You know, it just happens that these bosses had to be out
priced in mid-town to open shops in Chinatown. And when the women who
work also go home and cook, have to have grocery stores, well it just
so happened that the laundry, the Chinese laundry man was being, you
know, was closed out of his laundry, you know, because of permanent
press, that he was free to think of different ideas.
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
You know, you have women and
children working in Chinatown---women working in Chinatown, you have
families. Before, Chinatown was a bachelor society. Once you have
women working there, women being able to come to America, you had
children. Children grow up and get married, in the ‘70s that
was the next generation, you had your first jewelry store in
Chinatown, selling wedding jewelry, you know, the dragon bracelets.
You know, I just find this whole development of the growth of
Chinatown fascinating.
</p>
<p>
Q: So when you go to Chinatown
today, what do you see, how do you feel? How is it different from the
Chinatown of your childhood?
</p>
<p>
Chin: It doesn’t seem as
vibrant----you know, there’s a lot of life there, but there’s
also---you know, I remember my mother would buy jewelry, and we had
friends who got married, and they would wear the traditional jade, or
dragon bracelets, dragon and phoenix bracelets. And then I remember a
time when that was no longer popular, because brides were getting
robbed, and these gangs who knew that there was a wedding going on,
there was a reception going on at a certain restaurant, would make
sure they would be there, and you know, that didn’t help. The
loss of the garment factories means business, ‘cause there’s
not the women working there. You know, there’s also women,
women will shop wherever they work. When women are not concentrated
in Chinatown, there’s going to be less of the other type of
shopping, for children, for their children, for toys, for food. And
so you see less of that.</p>
<p>
Q: So you’re saying the
loss of the garment industry in Chinatown affects the whole kind of
food chain of the livelihood of Chinatown.</p>
<p>
Chin: Right. And Chinatown
itself is changing. You know, Chinatown was always changing, from the
’50s, when it developed with the first garment factory, until
now, when you see this decline in the garment industry. But, you
know, Chinatown, it’s probably commonplace to say that money
makes the world go ‘round, but you know, Chinatown garment
shops are being priced out of their space, of their rental space.
They moved to the outer boroughs because rent is cheaper in Brooklyn,
in Queens. And who’s moving to Chinatown? You have these SoHo,
these
artists with their galleries, who
are priced out of SoHo, because SoHo was a growing neighborhood at
one point, and it’s up, it’s trendy now, it’s too
expensive. So, and, they come down to Manhattan, to Chinatown, which
is still cheaper than SoHo, even though it’s not cheap enough
for your garment factory.
</p>
<p>
So you have what’s called
now gentrification of Chinatown. You walk along Canal Street, you go
to Centre Street, you see a Charles Schwab there. There wasn’t
a Charles Schwab there a decade ago. You know, you see a Starbucks.
Chinese women don’t buy Starbucks. It’s a different
population now. There are people coming down from SoHo. You know,
they cater to them. If you walk past the corner of Canal and Centre,
and look into Starbucks there, it’s the Northwest corner, it’s
all American. Most---you know, 90 percent American. You know, where
are they coming from? So it’s a change in pace in Chinatown.</p>
<p>
And, in fact, that building that
rented to Schwab and Starbucks, used to have jewelry stores. You used
to see a man standing on the street corner, “Sell your gold,
sell your watch, sell your jewelry.” You don’t see that
anymore. As their leases, as those used jewelry store leases expire,
they’re bringing in a different type of store.
</p>
<p>
So I guess if I say it’s,
Chinatown is not the same, it’s probably nostalgic, because I
guess anyone would say that, well, Starbucks and Charles Schwab is
better than this used jewelry store, which it is. I bring my son
here, so that he could see more Chinese people, and that’s when
I sense, intensely, that he’s missing the Chinatown that I
knew.</p>
<p>
Q: And is your mother saddened,
is your mother saddened by the whole decline of the garment
industry?<br><br>Chin: She’s saddened, but she’s also,
you know, on the selfish end, she’s glad that she’s
retired and doesn’t have to deal with it. She is saddened for
the newcomers.</p>
<p>
Q: Okay. I think that’s
about it. Is there anything else that you want to add, that I haven’t
asked you?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Chin: Um, I can’t think of
anything offhand.
</p>
<p>
Q: Anything about your own work,
or your courses?</p>
<p>
Chin: Um, my work, about my
work, I know a lot of Chinese garment workers from my mother, and my
mother knows some very interesting people who grew up China, or were
educated in China in the ‘40s, they knew Russian, they know
Chinese, but they come here, they don’t know English, so they
end up in a garment factory. And, there are ladies---there is a lady
who makes her own fertilizer, and shared a lot of things with me. And
I started off my research, my interviews, I started off wanting to
interview those people, the commonplace worker in the garment
factory. You know, “What were you doing before?” you
know, because that knowledge is not used in America. There are
engineers, she introduced me to a Barefoot Doctor during the Cultural
Revolution who came here and she couldn’t use any of her
medical skills, because she doesn’t know English----she works
in a garment factory.</p>
<p>
And I wanted to interview those
people to show that your garment factory worker is not uneducated,
unskilled in other ways. Unfortunately that didn’t work out
because they would freely talk to me, but the minute I brought my
tape recorder, they didn’t want to be recorded. And that’s
made me turn around and interview my mother. She said, “I’ll
help you out,” being very sympathetic towards me, and she
talked about her work in the garment factories, and then it occurred
to me, the garment factory, the whole garment industry is a
fascinating industry. So after my mother, I called up some of the
old, the retired people, union people, who, activists, who helped
start the whole movement in Chinatown, who organized from the very
first Chinese newsletter to the rally, the big rally in 1982. And
that’s how I ended up interviewing labor leaders instead.</p>
<p>
<br>And that has its own----I
don’t want to say that’s more important than your common
worker, but that is a history that hasn’t really been written
yet. And, some of the information I have is from people who are old
enough, anyway. They’re retired. So, and I’m very happy
to have that on record, and to get an overall picture of how the
movement started. I find that fascinating.</p>
<p>
Q: Well, I’m sure your
work will be very useful for future researchers and scholars and
hopefully for people in our project who might be interested to read
more about what you’ve done because you’ve written a lot.
Yes.</p>
<p>
Chin: I know that the Tamiment
Library Labor Archives of NYU is looking forward to the report. And I
feel very good to be a part of it.</p>
<p>
Q: Thank you so much. My name is
Lan Trinh, and I’ve been speaking with Winifred Chin in her
home in Brooklyn. Thank you.</p>
<p>
Chin: You’re welcome.
Thank you.</p>
<p>
[END
OF INTERVIEW]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問:今天是西元二00四年一月八日,我現在在布魯克林陳小姐的家裡。為了存檔起見,請告訴我們你的名字?</p>
<p>陳:我叫陳春卿,我是紐約大學亞太美洲研究計畫(Asian-Pacific-American Studies Program)的客座教授。我也是紐約大學Far Eastern Civilizations的助理副教授。</p>
<p>問:好的,我們將時光倒轉,回到童年,你可不可以談談你是在哪裡出生的? 父母是從甚麼地方來的?</p>
<p>陳:我是在布魯克林出生的,一生大部分時間都待在布魯克林。我的父母來自中國,我母親來自香港,父親來自廣州,中國廣東省。</p>
<p>問:他們是甚麼時候來到美國的?</p>
<p>陳:我父親是1934年到的。他是個養子,就像我的書「Paper Son」中所描述的一樣,他後來曾在1949年的時候回中國一趟,在香港娶了我的母親,過了一年(1950)我母親也過來了,就定居在布魯克林。</p>
<p>問:他們為甚麼選擇到紐約呢?</p>
<p>陳:是這樣的,我父親是因為中國貧困的經濟情況而首先過來的。那仍是美國「排華」的年代,中國南方經濟情況持續惡化,想要改善個人生活,或想幫助家用(從國外寄錢回去)的人就移民到美國來。我母親的情況則是,<br>
她的家庭環境本來很好,但是在日據時代失去了所有財產,對日抗戰結束後,她的父母急著要把所有的女兒嫁出去,他們家有三女四男,所以兩個女兒很快的嫁給了所謂的「金山」─美國華僑,她就是在這樣的情況下過來的。</p>
<p>問:你的父親是怎麼過來的呢?</p>
<p>陳:他是個養子,意思是他用錢去買到一張身分證明,證明他是某某美裔華人…抱歉,是某某華裔美國人的兒子。在我的書中「Paper Son」談的就是這一段歷史。這整段歷史大致是從1882到1943年美國排華年代開始的。在美國的中國人從1800年中期起,就開始在美國開築鐵路,但很快的,美國政府或者因為經濟或種族的考慮,決定不再接受任何美裔華……中國人到美國來。</p>
<p>當時有些已經在美國的中國人,他們的孩子是在美國出生的。這些在美國出生的公民,不論他們到哪一個國家,都可以把他們孩子帶回美國,即使他們的孩子不是在美國出生的。所以這些在美國出生的中國人,便成為所謂第一代的華裔美國人。根據排華法(the exclusion laws),他們仍然不能跟中國人以外的種族通婚。所以當時想要結婚的話,就得回中國去。結婚後他們自己仍然可以回到美國,因為他們是在美國出生的公民,但是其他的中國人則不能。意思就是他們不能把妻子帶回美國。<br>
「養子」就是在這樣的情況下開始的。他們在中國結婚,單身回到美國,九個月後宣稱孩子出生了,通常是個兒子,美國政府就會提供文件證明以便讓這個兒子移民到美國﹔理論上這些孩子是美國出生公民的下一代,所以可以被帶回美國,反之妻子就不可以。所以這些原本用來證明某人是某華裔美國公民的兒子,以便進入美國的文件,變成一種可以在黑市交易的商品,因為美國政府根本無從查明你到底有沒有個兒子。想到美國的人,<br>
就等個十七八年買到這種證明,進入美國。</p>
<p>當你買到證明之後,你要記住所有資料。你要說,我是某某某的兒子,他是美國出生的公民,我的母親是中國人,我是某年某月某日出生的。你把所有資料記住後,通過美國海關時,如果你所有的回答都正確無誤,海關官員便認為,你就是文件上的那個人,你就是個美國公民。這樣進入美國的人就叫做 「養子(Paper Son)」,我的父親就是個養子。</p>
<p>問:所以你的父親購買了這樣的一個證明?</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:這麼說來,你祖父並不是在美國的中國華僑,你的父親才是移民美國的第一代。</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:你說他是1930年來的?</p>
<p>陳:1934。</p>
<p>問:1934年他幾歲呢?</p>
<p>陳:證件上的年紀是19歲,因為他必須假裝是證明書上的那個人。所以根據證明書的記載,他是19歲。</p>
<p>問:但你不知道…</p>
<p>陳:我們不知道他到底幾歲。</p>
<p>
問:他在這兒待了多久才回去結婚呢?</p>
<p>陳:他是1949年回去的,當時他在美國海軍服役,需要的話我有一張他當時的照片。</p>
<p>問:我們可以待會需要時再看。所以你的父親在假設十九歲到1949年去香港之間都是隻身待在美國….</p>
<p>陳:他有些來自同一村莊的舊識,所以並不能真的算是隻身一人。你知道的,在當時排華的30年代,中國女性不能進入美國,即便是太太也不行,她們只能待在中國。所以當時的唐人街基本上是個單身漢社會。在一定程度上有來自社區的支持。當時絕大部分的移民來自台山,很多人彼此認識,有些甚至是遠親,或是稱呼彼此為親戚,這應該也算是一種親情的支持。</p>
<p>問:你剛說台山?</p>
<p>陳:是的,台山。</p>
<p>問:所以他回去香港,遇到你母親….</p>
<p>陳:對。</p>
<p>問:要接你母親到美國來困難嗎?</p>
<p>陳:不難,但是我想若是早些時候可能就不容易了。因為我母親的家庭背景頗為顯赫,她的父親是英文老師,母親是產婦﹔<br>
家裡有汽車,孩子上的是私立學校。在當時這樣的家庭算是相當富有的了。但是他們在戰爭中失去了全部的家產,所以移民美國反而成為一種希望。</p>
<p>問:你覺得他們對來美國抱著甚麼樣的希望?</p>
<p>陳:大多數的移民以為美國的街道是用金子舖成的,中文叫做「金山」,因為在1949年美國西部發現金礦,所以一般人以為美國到處是黃金。</p>
<p>我父親預先警告我母親來美國並不是來掏金,而是做洗衣粗活,他不要求她做多,但是不要奢望養尊處優。</p>
<p>問:你母親來自優渥的家庭環境,她能接受嗎?</p>
<p>陳:她能接受的主要原因是她們家在戰爭中失去了一切,日本人把所有值錢的東西都拿走了,包括車子。僅餘的一些錢….</p>
<p>(噪音干擾)</p>
<p>問:所以在1949年時,你的父母在香港結婚,你的母親對移民到一個作粗活的地方有意見嗎?</p>
<p>陳:她不反對的原因是對她來說香港已經沒希望了。日本人把所有值錢的東西都拿走了,家裡僅剩的餘產要留給男孩子作學費。她的哥哥最後成為醫生,另一個成了藥劑師,一個比較嬌生慣養的妹妹成了護士,所以確實沒有餘錢留給年紀較大的女孩子。我的母親在家排行老三,<br>
所以她渴望移民,雖然她知道要做粗活,但是總比留在香港好。</p>
<p>問:你的父母當時會說英文嗎?</p>
<p>陳:不會。我的父親懂的非常有限,我母親懂的一點點是因為她父親是交英文的,但他們倆的英文都不流利。是沒有辦法在美國主流社會找到工作的。</p>
<p>問:他們在紐約人生地不熟,剛到能去那兒呢?</p>
<p>陳:他們住在唐人街,因為我的阿姨已經嫁給美國華僑,所以他們在唐人街住了一陣子,後來才搬到布魯克林。</p>
<p>問:他們為甚麼要搬?為甚麼不住在唐人街?</p>
<p>陳:我父親從1934年起就知道唐人街,事實上是1936年,他1934年時先到波士頓,但在1936年來到唐人街,知道幫派還有Tongs的厲害,所以不希望我們生長在這樣的環境下。</p>
<p>問:不介意的話能不能告訴我們您是西元幾年出生的?</p>
<p>陳:(笑)1952年。</p>
<p>問:在布魯克林?</p>
<p>陳:對。</p>
<p>
問:布魯克林的哪裡?</p>
<p>陳:Bushwick。</p>
<p>問:描述一下你在布魯克林的童年,周圍很多中國人嗎?你有沒有覺得和別人不一樣?</p>
<p>陳:Bushwick幾乎沒有中國人,除了我們家和王家(Wongs),他們的故事在我的書Paper Son中也有提到。他們只跟我們隔一條街,再過幾條街有另外一戶,中國人就這些了。還有一戶是日本人。</p>
<p>大部分在布魯克林的中國家庭都習慣在禮拜天去一趟唐人街。我父親的洗衣店一周開七天,不,是六天,星期天我們就到唐人街。在他會說英文之後,他開始擔任位於唐人街Worth街True Light Lutheran Church的翻譯。這就是我們的社交生活。你知道的,50年代在布魯克林我們是很被保護的﹔當然,這跟時代有很大的關係,當時是麥卡錫主義(McCarthuism)的年代,身為中國人並不太受歡迎,除了一周去一次唐人街,上教堂,之後再拜訪親友之外,我們的生活頗為孤立。</p>
<p>有時候在夏天學校放假的時候,我們會到我母親的工廠去。</p>
<p>問:你身為一個少數亞裔的孩子,學校的生活怎麼樣呢?你會被孤立嗎?或受到不一樣的待遇?</p>
<p>陳:並沒有,基本上還蠻開心的(笑)。我們跟別人確實很不一樣。當時的亞洲人被認為是很勤勞,很用功的。我哥哥和我在學校表現頗為傑出,我們總是老師最寵愛的學生。我們從未被孤立,我們還蠻受歡迎的。</p>
<p>
問:所以你的父母從來沒有回香港或大陸的念頭?</p>
<p>陳:沒有。我父親從1934年後再也沒有回去過,事實上,除了二次世界大戰在美國海軍服役期間,他從此再也沒有踏出美國一步。他再也沒回中國去過。他總是跟我說想帶我回故鄉看看,但從未曾實現。我母親還剩一個姊姊(妹妹?)住在香港。她回去過三,四次,還曾到大陸觀光旅行三個禮拜,但是她從來沒有想過要搬回大陸,或在退休後到大陸。</p>
<p>問:所以在你成長期間,你的父親早年靠開洗衣店維生?</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:你的母親呢?</p>
<p>陳:1955年我三歲,我哥哥五歲的時候,她開始在唐人街的血汗成衣廠上班。她聽教會的一些婦女說唐人街有活可幹,所以等我哥哥到上學的年紀之後,她就會先送我哥哥去學校,學校就位在地鐵站附近,然後她就搭地鐵到唐人街上班。我才三歲,就跟父親留在家裡的洗衣店。</p>
<p>問:她在香港曾工作過嗎?</p>
<p>陳:不曾。</p>
<p>問:所以這是她第一份工作。</p>
<p>陳:沒錯,這是她第一份工作。</p>
<p>
問:所以你在洗衣店長大…</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:大概是怎麼樣的情況呢?</p>
<p>陳:當你年紀小的時候,你感覺不出有甚麼不同。就像我們認識的其他中國家庭的小孩,也是在洗衣店長大,沒甚麼不對勁的。我們認識其他的人也是開店的。在Bushwick,有一整條街都是這樣樓下是店舖的兩層樓房,有個跟我們很要好的義大利家庭,前房開雜貨舖,他們就住在後房。隔壁是間糖果舖,他們也住在後房跟樓上。</p>
<p>我跟我哥哥並不覺得有甚麼奇怪的。我們的洗衣店不過是另外一間店罷了。</p>
<p>問:所以你並不會跟其他白種美國同學比較,比如說:為什麼只有我住在洗衣店的後房?</p>
<p>陳:不會的,因為他們不過是住在糖果店的後房(笑)。我們不作這樣的比較。那是一個藍領階級的社區,義大利人,愛爾蘭人,每個人…我最要好的朋友有些就住在店的後房。</p>
<p>問:你父親的店在哪裡?</p>
<p>陳:在Bushwick.</p>
<p>問:噢,在Bushwick,好的,所以你母親在唐人街工作,帶你的哥哥去上學…</p>
<p>
陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:然後呢?</p>
<p>陳:她帶我哥哥到布魯克林的學校,然後搭地鐵去上班。</p>
<p>問:她是個熟練的…</p>
<p>陳:裁縫?</p>
<p>問:以前是裁縫嗎?</p>
<p>陳:不,她是一邊做邊學的。</p>
<p>問:她為甚麼選擇作裁縫這一行呢?</p>
<p>陳:這是少數對女性開放的行業之一。值得一提的是,當時正值唐人街的成衣業的成長期﹔20年代成衣廠原本多在中城(Midtown),靠近FIT (Fashion Institute),但是逐漸高漲的租金使廠主尋求較便宜的房租,像唐人街,唐人街當時是蠻便宜的。</p>
<p>所以50年代他們開始在唐人間設立工廠,也就是我母親找到工作的時候,他們徵求中國婦女,因為戰後中國婦女終於可以來美與先生團圓,這些婦女就在工廠裡作工,但你知道的,中國女性和大部分女性一樣習慣在家幫小孩缝縫補補,所以裁縫算是女性駕輕就熟的工作。現在只不過是幫別人作成商品罷了。即使她們在外面上班,她們仍然需要回家煮飯。<br>
所以下班後,她們需要採買,雜貨店就應運而生,漸漸的唐人街就這樣形成了。在那之前不過是個單身漢的社區。</p>
<p>問:講一下你半中半美的生活。在家講的語言是?</p>
<p>陳:中文。</p>
<p>問:廣東話?</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問:顯然你在外面說英文,所以你在家是不說英文的?</p>
<p>陳:不說的。</p>
<p>問:這是你父母規定的嗎?</p>
<p>陳:是的,我父親認為我們應該要懂中文。尤其在50年代,麥卡錫主義年代(McCarthy era),美國政府對可能是共產黨的中國人看的很緊。我父親寫的的文章有可能害他被驅逐出境的。所以我父親認為,如果真有一天不幸被驅逐出境,會講中文要好的多。有一段時間我們不確定究竟我們會不會被驅逐出境,所以要是真回到中國,會講中文會成為我們的優勢。</p>
<p>問:這樣的情況多嗎?我碰到的很多華裔都不會講中文。</p>
<p>
陳:我也碰到像很多這樣不會講中文的人。但他們大多數納悶為甚麼他們的父母親不教他們(笑)。我想這是家庭教育的關係,家庭價值觀。</p>
<p>問:所以你週末到唐人街,說一說當時的唐人街的情況。社區有多大?有沒有感覺是個屬於中國人的社區?</p>
<p>陳:有的,當時的社區生活比現在更活躍,小孩子很多。現在有小孩子了,社區正在發展,跟以前不一樣了。50年代前是沒有唐人街的,有的只是一個單身漢社區。那是排華的年代。中國婦女不准來美國。他們來到這裡,即使他們在中國結了婚,太太也是不准帶過來的。所以在50年代以前,沒有那麼多的小孩子,所以非常不同。</p>
<p>問:中國人,義大利人或其他移民彼此處的來嗎?</p>
<p>陳:我不記得義大利移民。唐人街是到70年代才延伸到小義大利的。當然,也因此引起幫派地盤鬥爭。 50年代的唐人街是很小的,我母親會帶我們去唐人街,她買東西的時候我們就坐在門前的樓梯上,跟其他坐在樓梯口的小朋友玩。一個小時後她再回來,我們還在那兒,我想今天沒有母親會這樣做。</p>
<p>所以大概是這樣的情形。當然這是在幫派鬥爭白熱化之前。1965年移民法改變之後,產生很多幫派鬥爭,情形跟原來滿理想的社區大不相同。</p>
<p>
問:能不能大概告訴我們當時血汗成衣廠工作的情況?你的母親在那兒工作的時候大概有幾家?</p>
<p>陳:50年代,大概有十多家。在50年代不會超過20家。</p>
<p>問:老闆大多是中國人嗎?</p>
<p>陳:猶太人或中國人。我不知道正確的比例,當時因為才剛開始,所以廠家還不算多。20年代時工廠剛從中城搬到唐人街,所以一切都剛開始,數目還不多。這是按件計酬的工作,做多少就賺多少。適者生存。如果你做得慢,老闆會說你坐在縫紉機前幹什麼?不如找別人來做。所以年紀大或學不來的人,很容易就丟了飯碗。</p>
<p>問:所以你的母親一天能賺多少錢?</p>
<p>陳:一天?不多,一週大概能賺個七塊到十塊左右。你要知道,這是50年代。</p>
<p>問:所以加上你父親的收入,能不能過寬裕的生活,或者…..?</p>
<p>陳:不寬裕,只是過得去。但是在其他方面我們過得很富足;我們學講中文,不像很多其他華裔是不講中文的。我們受到比較豐富的中華文化薰陶。精神生活相當富足。但經濟和物質方面就不太理想。</p>
<p>問:你的母親喜歡去工作嗎?或者很辛苦?她喜不喜歡?</p>
<p>
陳:我想她喜歡工作是因為這能讓她離開家裡。我能想像在洗衣店的後房帶著兩個小孩的生活能把人逼瘋。我相信她很開心能夠掙些外快,幫我們添購玩具,或幫自己買些小東西。</p>
<p>問:她一天工作幾小時?</p>
<p>陳:那時的工廠一天開十二或十五個小時。她很早就起床帶我哥哥上學,常常到我睡覺了都還沒回來。一直到我都快不認得她是誰的時候,她才沒有再這樣。</p>
<p>問:你現在回想起會不會覺得跟母親想處的時間太少,或者…?</p>
<p>陳:我跟母親相處時間確實不多,但是跟我父親非常親近,我的書「養子」就是以他的故事為本。這本書是我們 合寫的,書在他去世後才發行。所以,我雖然少了一個母親,但是跟父親關係很親近,自從我父親去世以後,我跟母親也親近了很多。</p>
<p>問:我知道您對唐人街的成衣工會做了相當多的研究,可不可以請您介紹一下有關工會的起源及背景?<br>
<br>
陳:就像我前面說過的,工廠在50年代中城的高房租壓力下開始搬到唐人街,整個50年代,大概只有20家,或少於20家。60年代廠家漸漸增多,因為家人可以來美國了,但是最重要的改變是1965年移民法的修正,移民大量增加。工廠大約在1955年之前就開始有工會組織,最早可能從53或54年開始;1955年工會由Jay Mazur領導,他是Local 23-25的助理經理,這個分會當時多半是中國人。他創立了一份小型的中文報。他必須從舊金山雇用專人用手抄寫報紙,再透過廣播電台將訊息傳送到工廠。<br>
所有英文要翻成中文,讓中國勞工瞭解他們的權益。這是從50年代開始的。</p>
<p>我母親本身在1957年加入公會。基本上工會從事全面運動通知中國勞工,派代表到各工廠告訴他們工會的存在,你付一點費用,可以獲得醫療保險,可以有公定假日及休假,因為我媽媽可以說一點點兒英文的關係,她在工廠幫忙工會代表翻譯。現在這樣的人被稱作「業務代表」(business agents),專門負責一個工廠。以往有另外的稱呼。</p>
<p>問:工廠會威脅員工不得參加工會嗎??</p>
<p>陳:一開始是沒有的。但是等到老闆 知道他們要負擔部分的費用,比如說社會安全保險,假設他們是支領薪水而不是現金的話,或者勞工根據FICA賺取的退休金,那麼工廠老闆就得支付部分的費用,不只是繳付政府稅款,還包括工會,工會的醫療保險。</p>
<p>等到他們不願再支付這些費用時,他們就向工人宣稱:「不要加入公會,他們只是要你們的錢。」衝突就這樣產生了,並且引發1982年的唐人街罷工大遊行。</p>
<p>事實上,這是一張早期的照片。</p>
<p>問:你的母親在哪兒?你能指出來嗎?</p>
<p>陳:這個是我母親,這時大約是70年代初期。</p>
<p>問:你母親的全名是?</p>
<p>(第一面完畢)</p>
<p>
陳:Wing Fong Chin。她是工廠代表,意思是她協助其他工人加入工會,填表,如果要付會費,就協助收費,她自願到上城 (uptown),或者不是上城,到中城 (midtown)。她協助完成文件工作,因為大部分的工人不會說英文,她也說的不好,但是足夠幫忙。</p>
<p>問:這是自願擔任這個工作的嗎?或是?</p>
<p>陳:1995年我母親剛開始工作時大約20多歲,用今天的話來說,她很有抱負。她還很年輕。她很想多賺些錢。按件計酬的工作就好像是你縫一條帶子,他們付你一分錢。但如果她發現另外一個工廠縫一條付兩分錢,她就會跳到另一家工廠。那個時候因為工廠不多,一兩年內她大約做遍了所有工廠。當工會代表到各工廠告訴工人:「加入工會,你可以獲得更多福利,得到醫療保險,休假及支薪病假」時,他們到每個工廠都看到我媽媽,他們就請她擔任工廠代表的職務。她把工廠的問題反映到工會。</p>
<p>問:你的母親來美國後是否曾正式學過英文?</p>
<p>陳:沒有。她上班時學了一點。她會為工會發表演說,當然,是工會幫她準備的講稿,她會先預演,就是這樣慢慢學的;她也常常依賴我幫她看講稿,告訴她是什麼意思,如果她覺得不對,她就會說:「不對」,然後更正。</p>
<p>所以就像裁縫工作,她也是邊做邊學。</p>
<p>
問:當時工會,工人,跟老闆之間主要的衝突是什麼?我知道你先前談到一些,但是工會的目標究竟是什麼?</p>
<p>陳:工會的目標是改善工作環境。你知道的,這些女工從早上七點開始工作,雖然我母親並沒有,但是她知道工廠七點就開工,住在唐人街的女工七點就到了,一直工作到半夜。</p>
<p>問:這是因為老闆的要求,或者是因為按件計酬,所以做的越多…?</p>
<p>陳:你按件領酬。是的。這是非常動機導向(incentive-oriented)的工作。做的越多,賺得越多。</p>
<p>問:因為工資很低,所以每個人都要工作很長的時間,才有一定的收入。</p>
<p>陳:工會的目標之一是設立最低工資標準,因為按件計酬是違反道德的。你就值這麼多錢,你能縫二十條帶子,就值二十分錢。但是工會打算根據美國勞工標準,設立最低工資,上班時間9點到5點。設立打卡制度,上下班打卡。他們會來檢查。如果工廠的員工是工會成員,那麼工廠也要加入工會。因為工會會員依規定不能為非工會工廠工作。所以工廠老闆也得付會費。這樣工廠和工人都是工會成員,老闆應該要遵守規定,包括:最低工資,9到5點的工作時數,打卡上下班制度,勞工有支薪的休假,病假,還有其他後來漸漸增加的權益。</p>
<p>
問:你母親什麼時候從按件計酬變成最低薪資時薪?</p>
<p>陳:理論上是改變了,我不清楚是什麼時候,但實際上,情況未曾改變。即使現在仍然有按件計酬的工作。那時候確實有打卡的制度,我記得小時候學校放假的時候,我們會跟媽媽到工廠去,那裡有打卡機和時間卡,我們早上很早就到了,我母親就立刻開始工作。九點到了,老闆就叫小朋友們幫媽媽打卡,小朋友就幫媽媽打上班的卡。五點一到我們會幫忙打下班的卡,但是所有的人繼續在工作。她們還是按件領酬,工作時數還是很長,只是賺的錢稍微多一點。等到工會代表來檢查打卡記錄和薪資的時候,他們會問:「你9點到5點上班,怎麼會賺這麼少的錢?」工人會說,被點到的工人,不是每個人都會被檢查到。被檢查到的工人會說:「我中間離開,我並沒有真的從9點做到5點,我兒子生病了,所以我去接他。」等等藉口。</p>
<p>事實上,最低工資從來沒有真正的實行。</p>
<p>問:所以雖然你的母親是工會成員,她仍然接受這種作法,好像大家都接受這種作法,至少這樣會讓工會滿意,同時也能享有一些參加工會的福利---</p>
<p>陳:是的,因為還是有一些權益,大部分婦女是從鄉下來的。大部分不是從香港來的,她們原先從事農業,在鄉村的農田裡工作。有鞋可穿,不用光腳在田裡面工作,有台縫紉機在你前面,已經算是一種進步了。</p>
<p>
工會的觀念在中國傳統裡是不存在的。所以參加工會,最低工資對這些婦女不代表任何意義。我不確定有多少人能真的瞭解。但是她們知道有健康保險。還有什麼比這更重要?也有可支薪的 休假。所以很多婦女從來沒有抱怨過按件計酬的工作。</p>
<p>問:那麼對你母親及家庭這代表什麼呢?有沒有對你們的生活帶來變化?</p>
<p>陳:在那個時候說來,我們可以多買些玩具。有些人會說這是童工,另外就是工會不准小孩子待在工廠,因為那裡有機器,小孩容易受傷。有些小女孩跟著媽媽來上班,幫忙縫東西。我也曾幫我母親縫東西。當她在縫吊褲帶跟肩帶的時候,她要把這些帶子從管子裡穿過去然後再翻過來,我們就幫忙這些,這樣當然也算童工。</p>
<p>但是,當你才十歲或八歲的時候,你不會往這方面想。我們誰的忙都幫。好讓她們多賺些錢。我們還會玩一種遊戲,看誰翻的帶子最多。對我們來說這像個遊戲。如果剛好遇到工會來臨檢,我們就躲到廁所去,有一次我們被藏到防火梯。(笑)</p>
<p>問:你是否曾想過你母親的工作環境很差,很糟糕?</p>
<p>陳:從來沒有。對小孩子來說,經歷這樣的環境,因為他們驚人的適應力,並不覺得環境很差。即使我回想起我做的那些工,我並不覺得我是童工。尤其是在唐人街的工廠。如果我我是在南美洲,工作12個小時,像在厄瓜多(Ecuador),墨西哥的一些南美洲國家的兒童一樣在美國出口成衣廠工作12小時,那才是真正的虐待童工。<br>
我們比較像在玩。工會認為工廠環境對兒童健康有不良影響。</p>
<p>問:即使在英文比較流利後,你的母親或父親也從未想過要換工作?</p>
<p>陳:沒有。我父親一輩子都在洗衣店工作。但他其實是個作家。他會作詩,出版。他有其他想做的事。店裡不忙的時候,他就寫作,看書,所以他從來沒有---他寫作的熱忱恨高,他發表的中文詩作有幾百首。部分譯作收在我的書中「Paper Son」。他從來不熱衷於學習英文以便去找一份較好的工作。他懂中文,他用中文工作,他的中文很好。</p>
<p>我母親也是一樣。對她來說這不過是份餬口的工作。她想多賺些錢貼補家用,多買些玩具,奢侈品,這就是她的希望。那時的想法很簡單。戰後的態度。家庭和樂就好。歷經過二次大戰的日軍,她並沒有---當時是完全不同的一個時代,她只要平平安安在家裡就很開心了。跟今天的婦女比起來,她算是一點抱負也沒有。但是在她那個年代,她已經非常滿足了。</p>
<p>而且她在工會也屢獲升遷。從一個工廠代表到最後做到Local 23-25的董事會主席。</p>
<p>問:Local 23-25有多少人呢?</p>
<p>陳:現在?</p>
<p>問:那個時候。</p>
<p>
陳:我不曉得。最多人的時候,大約在70年代,1980,1982年時,大約有兩萬人。他們都參與了大罷工。這些是大罷工的照片。這是在Columbus公園舉行的遊行,這是我母親,正在發帽子跟胸章,告訴婦女不要去上班,因為工廠老闆拒絕簽一個長達三年提高薪水,增加假期及其他福利的合約。這是遊行開始前,她正在發帽子跟胸章給大家。遊行開始後,她是工人的發言代表之一。</p>
<p>問:你對身為工運活躍份子的母親有什麼看法?</p>
<p>陳:我以她為傲。我母親做的其中的一件事---我跟我哥哥都知道她不可能一輩子待在洗衣店。她整天只縫衣服我們也替她難過。當她開始參加工會額外的活動時,我們也替她感到高興。</p>
<p>這是在紐約大學(NYU)。這是在Triangle Shirtwaist 工廠的紀念大會上(譯者按:1911年一場在紐約Triangle Shirtwaist Factory發生的大火導致146名血汗工廠的女工喪生)。</p>
<p>問:她總是以英文發表演說嗎?</p>
<p>陳:不一定,看場合跟聽眾。遊行的時候,因為有兩萬名中國勞工參加罷工,她說中文。在Triangle Shirtwaist紀念大會上,因為在場有紐約時報的記者,她就以英文發表演說。</p>
<p>問:當時爭取婦女參加工會困難嗎?</p>
<p>陳:不會。現在就比較難了。50年代的時候工廠比較少,不到20家。等到60或70年代,差不多有150至200家。當然工會也變的更積極。所有的工廠都要納入。等到70年代末期,工會要管到所有的違規事項,因為每次工會敲門的時候,<br>
都要等很久門才會開。我記得去店裡找我母親時,我母親會叫我:「先敲一下,停,再敲兩下。」老闆就會出來開門讓我進去。週末是應該不上工的。如果敲門聲不一樣,他們就不開門。</p>
<p>所以工會要管所有的違規事項,大概在70年代中期或末期時,他們請美國勞工部來評估狀況,宣傳的很廣,到處都開始有關於血汗工廠的違規報導,「血汗工廠」(“Sweatshop”)一詞開始出現,成衣廠開始被稱為血汗工廠。從70年代起成衣廠開始被叫做血汗工廠,工廠老闆受到壓力要守法。成本因此增加。所以70年代開始業主不願加入工會。工會對婦女還有男工有利,但是老闆不想加入。</p>
<p>到1982年,大概有500或550個工廠,大約兩萬名工人,因為業主不願簽訂工會合約而發生大罷工事件。合約是三年一簽。他們拒絕簽約。他們以為中國婦女還是會來上班,他們希望她們還是會來上班。因為中國人以工作勤奮出名。我們不會罷工。中國人不罷工。只要有工作,她們就會去上班,因為中國人飢荒太久了。有工作,他們就會去上班。</p>
<p>問:70年代的業主都是哪裡人?中國人嗎?</p>
<p>陳:有華工…</p>
<p>問:不,業主。</p>
<p>陳:喔,也有華人的業主。猶太裔的老闆漸漸減少。這也帶來些改變。華裔老闆因為他們是中國人的關係,<br>
會強調:「我們都是中國人,不要聽工會的」。</p>
<p>問:--「我們都是中國人」。</p>
<p>陳:對,我們都是中國人。我們是同一邊的。他們雇用員工的家人,姊妹或是女兒,假如她們需要打工的話。大家都是一家人。他們利用中國人的家庭觀念。70年代末期的華裔商人移民比前幾代的移民要多一點資本,他們利用這個觀念,然後到1982年的時候說:「工得照作,但我們不同意簽約。」</p>
<p>他們覺得華裔婦女還是會來上班,因為大家都是一家人。這些婦女證明他們錯了。她們罷工。她們遊行,就像我剛拿給你看的照片---</p>
<p>問:罷工的結果是?</p>
<p>陳:最後他們同意簽約,提供較高工資,較多假期跟較好的醫療保險。我手邊沒有這份合約,但是每簽一份新的合約,勞工就獲得更多的保障。</p>
<p>問:所以工會算是勝利了。</p>
<p>陳:是的,報紙有很多的報導。在Columbus公園有個大遊行。有舞龍,有神父在遊行開始前祝禱。談到工會怎麼一路走來幫勞工爭取權益的歷史,他們要求業主簽約,叫工人不要上班,然後從早上開始在唐人街遊行,舞龍舞獅,中午前大約百分之90的工廠都簽了約。他們終於體會到如果工會叫他們「不要上工」,他們就不會去工作。</p>
<p>
這是他們萬萬沒有料想到的。他們料想華裔婦女只要有活幹就會來上工。</p>
<p>問:現在來談談你。你曾想過會受到這麼高等的教育嗎?</p>
<p>陳:我不認為我受到非常高等的教育。我有碩士學位,但沒有唸完博士學位,因為我掙扎於完成博士論文及撰寫我父親的回憶錄之間,我要幫他撰稿,編輯及出版,我沒有辦法兩者兼顧。我放棄博士學位。我對碩士學位很滿意了,憑碩士學位我可以教書,而有人說博士學位的重要性視你的專業而定。我聽說如果你持續寫作,這跟博士學位一樣管用,而我已經出版了兩本書。對研究或教授博士課程或許不管用,但是對我教授大學一,二年級的課程是足夠了,我仍然一直從事研究工作,所以雖然在學術上或學位上,我並沒有拿到最高學位,但是我對在研究工作中所學到的感到很滿意。</p>
<p>問:但你從未想過有一天會跟母親一樣成為一個裁縫?</p>
<p>陳:從沒有。</p>
<p>問:為什麼?</p>
<p>陳:我想這是我父親灌輸給我和我哥哥的觀念,也許對我哥哥影響少一點。他要務實一些。他是個工程師,但是我父親對女孩子的觀念比較舊:「你念哪一門都行,因為你不用負擔主要的家計。但是不論你學什麼,要把它學好,這樣你總可以找到工作,你總是可以教書。」<br>
<br>
所以我主修哲學,後來專攻亞洲哲學,我對這非常有興趣。所以我從來沒有想過我會成為一個裁縫。我曾擔心哲學學位能做些什麼,但是我確實很喜歡。後來就教書。</p>
<p>問:簡單介紹一下你的研究,唐人街的成衣業的變化。你說在70年代末和80年代初是高峰期。大概有兩萬名工人---</p>
<p>陳:對---</p>
<p>問:500個血汗工廠---</p>
<p>陳:對---</p>
<p>問:發生了什麼事?什麼時候開始沒落的?</p>
<p>陳:1982年大約有5百到6百個工廠約兩萬名工人參與大罷工。這是個估計,因為開成衣廠的要訣,就是要趕快換手,賣給親戚,改個名字,讓工會查不到,工會就沒辦法叫你加入。逃過了工會,就不用繳稅,然後繼續改名字。這是為什麼5百到6百個廠僅僅是個略估,而非確定的數字。</p>
<p>這時大約是高峰期。從那以後,不僅要想辦法避免工會,還要設法應付高漲的房租。高漲的房地產價格曾逼使猶太裔的成衣廠老闆從中城搬到唐人街,同樣的原因,華裔老闆把工廠從唐人街搬到布魯克林的Sunset Park,皇后區,或 Borough Park,這就是目前曼哈頓唐人街的情況。他們搬出曼哈頓。<br>
根據紐約時報報導,9/11之後的三個月,大概還剩下146家。我跟我母親簡單的談過,問她知不知道?她說現在大概剩下150家。我覺得不到150家,因為情況一直在惡化。所以9/11的三個月後是146家,現在可能剩100家。</p>
<p>問:你認為9/11之前最多有幾家呢?</p>
<p>陳:最多是1982年,大概有500或550家。</p>
<p>問:從1982年到9/11之間算是滿長ㄧ段時間。成衣業一直在式微。</p>
<p>陳:式微的原因在於進口。像北美自由貿易協定(NAFTA),把工作機會輸出,進口中國或墨西哥製造的便宜的衣服。這種型態的貿易讓很多工作機會流失了。我剛於2003年四月做完一些訪談,視訪談對象而定,他們估計目前約有百分之85至百分之90的成衣是進口的。</p>
<p>成衣業確實在凋零中。去年正值北美自由貿易協定十週年慶。所以是從1993年開始。去年是十週年慶。這是在公元2000年之前,在9/11之前就發生的。是因為進口。9/11只是壓垮駱駝的最後一根稻草。</p>
<p>(錄音帶第一卷完)</p>
<p>問:我們剛討論到唐人街成衣業的衰落。我們再從那兒接著談。你說即使在9/11之前唐人街的成衣業已經有衰退的跡象---</p>
<p>
陳:因為進口,而簽訂北美自由貿易協定對成衣業並沒有幫助。即使在80年代,1982是全盛期,進口比例也高達百分之50。然後1993年北美自由貿易協定簽訂,剛過完十週年慶,目前進口佔約百分之90,或百分之85-90。有些受訪者甚至預計到2005年進口將達百分之百。</p>
<p>問:在你母親活躍於工會的時候,也就是血汗工廠的全盛期,大多數產品是內銷嗎?有沒有任何外銷?</p>
<p>陳:沒有,大部分是內銷,這是部分的情況,但是情況並非那麼簡單。這個問題不止一個答案。在50和60年代,並沒有名牌,沒有卡文克萊(Calvin Klein)或是GAP,即使有些品牌,也是非常少。當時賣成衣的店像Lerner’s或 Joyce Lesley,類似今天聯合廣場(Union Square)第14街的成衣商場,販賣各式衣服。現在有專賣店,GAP或Calvin Klein本身就像一個工業,GAP 決定把衣服送到中南美洲去製造,像Calvin Klein這種知名品牌不會交給一個唐人街的小工廠做。這些就是在9/11之前導致成衣業衰退的原因。名牌都在國外生產,因為成本比較便宜。</p>
<p>問:但是9/11是怎麼樣成為壓垮駱駝的最後一根稻草呢?</p>
<p>陳:成衣業之前已經受到北美自由貿易協定的影響,到2003年北美自由貿易協定屆滿十年,這是十年前簽訂的。大遊行之後,唐人街上漲的房租迫使成衣廠離開唐人街,搬到布魯克林,皇后區,<br>
使得工會很難跟工廠聯繫,因為以前所有的工廠都在唐人街,工會走一趟就可以從這一家到那一家做紀錄檢查,業務代表(business agents)可以做他們該做的事。但是在工廠搬到布魯克林跟皇后區後,這就行不通了。</p>
<p>所以這有影響。而9/11之後,整個下城(Lower Manhattan)交通關閉了好幾個月,卡車不能進出。工廠有貨要送。但是拿不到。他們有貨要趕,等著上工,但是他們沒辦法到工廠。所以只好搬走。否則關門大吉。很多廠都倒閉了。很多廠是因為這樣倒閉的。這就是最後一根稻草。對情況沒有幫助。</p>
<p>問:你的母親退休了嗎?</p>
<p>陳:她1995年的時候退休了。</p>
<p>問:她現在在作什麼呢?</p>
<p>陳:她在一個工會辦公室兼差,幫忙新會員瞭解一些福利,因為這個工作使她對現在的成衣業也有些瞭解。前景不看好。一些想成為會員的人想知道有哪些福利,會費多少。當他們知道繳出的會費是多少,得到的福利有哪些之後,他們作一番比較,結果覺得不值得加入。健康保險是最吸引人的項目。每個人都需要健康保險。但是現在的新移民跟她當年的不一樣。她那時的新移民比較誠實。我母親那個年代或甚至一二十年之後的移民從來沒想過領社會救濟金。他們的傲氣讓他們不願意伸手乞討。但是現在的新移民會比一比兩者,我要付這麼多會費,然後有這些醫療保險,我能賺得到保有會員資格的最低工資嗎?這是規定的。他們決定:如果我不把錢存在銀行裡,就可以領社會福利,在帳面下工作。<br>
不去工會會員的工廠工作。需要的時候就申請Medicare或Medicaid(譯者按:美國社會福利提供貧戶及老人的醫療保險)。我不需要工會。</p>
<p>所以沒有人加入。</p>
<p>問:你認為新移民可能遭遇到的情況是什麼?假設一個婦女剛從中國大陸來,不會說英文,會一點縫紉,想留在美國紐約,她有什麼選擇?</p>
<p>陳:選擇不多。我的意思是成衣業真的很蕭條。我不知道有沒有人覺得會恢復的。某種型態的成衣業總是會有的。服裝設計師總是需要製作些成衣。你不能只是寄樣本,或者把所有的東西都送到國外生產。你仍然需要某種型態的成衣業,但是應該會走向專業化。</p>
<p>很多原來在成衣廠的女工轉行到醫療護理,不同的工會,他們不叫健康護理人員---我想叫做家庭護理。他們照顧家居老人。很多人作這一行。他們接受訓練,學說一點英文。這對他們有利。</p>
<p>問:你覺得現在到美國的新移民要比你父母親那一代要來的辛苦嗎?</p>
<p>陳:是的。</p>
<p>問: 為什麼?</p>
<p>陳:如果你講的是成衣業的話,基本上我父母來的時候,成衣業正在成長。那是50年代,而她從50年代開始工作,她可以挑選喜歡的工廠去上班。她見證了工會,<br>
見證了這些福利,見證了1982年的大遊行,最後見證了沒落---工廠遷往皇后區,遷往Sunset Park。</p>
<p>當然,這也有它的好處。如果不是因為這些工廠,Sunset Park及其它的地方大概不會有這麼具規模的唐人街,因為工廠帶來了婦女,家庭隨之搬到工廠的附近,下班後要採買做飯。有了雜貨店,有了小孩子,就有了玩具店---所以成衣業為當地帶來了發展。但是對新移民很不利。他們來的不是在成衣業興盛的時候,而是衰退的時候。為了負擔工會的醫療保險,每一季至少要達到最低收入。按件計酬是賺不到那麼多的。</p>
<p>聯邦政府雖然有訓練新移民學習裁縫的計劃,但是訓練後必須有工作。現在所有的工作都出口到別的國家了,工人還能縫些什麼?</p>
<p>問: 回顧你父母親的一生,他們在美國的經驗是否影響你的看法和你目前的職業?</p>
<p>陳:我不確定影響大不大。有影響的話,應該是陪我長大的父親多於我母親,因為我母親幾乎都待在工廠,而我對父親的嗜好產生興趣,像作詩,哲學,寫作等。這影響了我的興趣。但一般說來,我對整個華裔---整個移民,甚至成衣廠繁榮了唐人街等---有非常強烈的興趣。整個發展的過程。因為這不單單是成衣廠遷往唐人街,婦女就業,雜貨店應運而生而已。這必須有天時地利的配合。</p>
<p>
我父親開洗衣店維生。後來我父親結束洗衣店的時候,因為免熨織布的發明,越來越多人自己洗衣服,就有人開始經營雜貨店。剛好那時成衣廠的老闆因為租金高漲從中城紛紛搬到唐人街。婦女除了工作外也得回家煮飯,得有雜貨店,而剛好因為免熨織布等,洗衣業不景氣,經營洗衣業的華人得另謀生路。</p>
<p>婦女和小孩在唐人街工作---婦女在唐人街工作,就有個家庭生活。之前唐人街是個單身漢社會。一旦婦女可以合法移民到美國後,開始在那兒工作,你就有了小孩子。70年代的下一代,長大了要成婚,就有了第一家首飾店,賣結婚的首飾,龍手鐲之類的。我真的覺得這一段唐人街發展的歷史引人入勝。</p>
<p>問: 如果你到今天的唐人街,你看到什麼,有什麼感覺?跟你小時候的唐人街有何不同?</p>
<p>陳:似乎沒有那麼生氣蓬勃---還是有各式各樣的生活,但是---我記得我媽媽曾經去買首飾給要結婚的朋友,他們會配戴傳統的首飾,玉,龍手鐲,龍鳳手鐲。後來這種情況不再流行,因為新娘會被搶劫,幫派份子一旦知道有婚禮要舉行,他們打聽出宴客的餐廳,就去打劫,這對情況不利。成衣廠的衰退也就是生意的衰退,因為婦女不再在那兒上班。因為婦女多半在上班的附近購物。當婦女不再聚集在唐人街,購物、買玩具和食物的人潮就不像以往多。</p>
<p>問: 你的意思是唐人街成衣業的衰退影響了唐人街的整個連鎖生態?</p>
<p>
陳:對。唐人街也在改變中。唐人街一直在改變,從50年代第一個成衣廠開始,直到現在成衣業的沒落。一切向「錢」看或許理所當然,但是成衣業被唐人街的高租金逼的外移。因為皇后區跟布魯克林區租金比較便宜,所以他們往那兒搬。那麼現在誰住到唐人街呢?被SOHO地區高租金逼的往外搬的的藝術家和藝廊;因為SOHO越來越時髦,越來越貴,所以他們往曼哈頓下城搬,搬到唐人街,至少比SOHO便宜,雖然對成衣業來說仍然太貴(譯者按:SOHO是曼哈頓的一個地區,意指 South of Houston Street)。</p>
<p>這就形成了唐人街的高級化(gentrification)。走在Canal Street和Centre Street上,你可以看到一家Charles Schwab銀行。十年前那兒沒有Charles Schwab。現在有Starbucks咖啡館,華裔婦女是不喝 Starbucks咖啡的。現在的居民結構已經不同了。有從SOHO搬來的人。這是為了迎合他們而存在的。如果你經過Canal 街和Centre街的西北角 ,往Starbucks裡看,全是美國人,百分之90是美國人。他們從哪兒來的?所以唐人街的步調在改變。</p>
<p>在Charles Schwab和Starbucks之前,那個地方原先是幾家首飾店。以前在街角可以看到有人叫賣:「收購金子,手錶,首飾」。現在已不復存在。首飾店租約到期後,引進了其他的店面。</p>
<p>所以如果我說唐人街變了,也許有人會覺得我懷舊,因為很多人覺得Charles Schwab跟Starbucks比二手首飾店來的好,我不否認。但是當我帶我兒子來唐人街,想讓他多看一些中國人的時候,我才強烈的感受到,現在的唐人街跟我以前記憶中的唐人街已經不一樣了。</p>
<p>
問: 你的母親對成衣業的沒落覺得傷感嗎?</p>
<p>陳:是很傷感。但是她也竊喜她已經退休,不用再去管。但是她為新移民感到難過。</p>
<p>問: 我想這樣夠了。有沒有我沒問到而你想補充說明的?</p>
<p>陳:一下子想不到。</p>
<p>問: 有關你的工作或課程?</p>
<p>陳:我的工作方面,因為我母親的緣故,我認識了很多成衣工人,我母親認識一些非常有意思的人,他們生於中國大陸,或在40年代在大陸受教育,會說俄文跟中文,但是來到美國,囿於不諳英文,而在成衣廠上班。有些小姐---有一個小姐會自製肥料,告訴我很多事情。我開始我的研究計畫跟訪談,我一開始想先訪問一般成衣廠的勞工。比如問他們說:「你之前從事哪一行?」,因為他們在美國沒有辦法從事他們的專業。有些是工程師,其中一個介紹我認識一個在文革時期作赤腳醫生的人,來到美國後不能從醫,因為她不會說英文---她現在在成衣廠上班。</p>
<p>我想從訪談中證明成衣廠的勞工並非是無知識,無專業的人。很不幸的這個計畫並沒有實現,因為他們很自在的跟我聊,但是一旦我拿出錄音機,他們便不願被錄音。這促使我轉而訪問我自己的母親。她對我說:「我來幫你」,因為同情我,她跟我談在成衣廠的工作,我才發現整個成衣業是個非常有意思的一個行業。之後,我跟一些已退休的老人、工會活躍份子聯繫,<br>
這些人幫忙推動唐人街的運動,組織第一份中文報一直到1982年的大遊行。這就是為什麼最後我決定訪問工運領導人的原因。</p>
<p>這一段有它自己的---我不是說這比其他的勞工重要,但是這段歷史尚未被記錄下來。而我獲得的資訊有些是年紀夠大的人提供給我的。他們退休了。我很高興能夠把他們記錄下來,以便瞭解整個運動的梗概。我覺得非常有意思。</p>
<p>問: 我想你的工作對將來的學者,還有參與我們計畫有興趣多瞭解你的研究的人會有很大幫助,因為你這方面寫的很多。</p>
<p>陳:我知道紐約大學的Tamiment Library Labor Archives很期待這份報告。我很高興參與這個研究計畫。</p>
<p>問: 非常謝謝你。我是鄭愛蘭 ,我訪談的對象是陳春卿女士,地點是她布魯克林的家中。謝謝。</p>
<p>陳:不客氣,謝謝。</p>
<p>(完)</p>
Dublin Core
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Title
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Winifred C. Chin
911DA Item
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approved
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unknown
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unknown
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unknown
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transcription
Media Type
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interview
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown
Description
An account of the resource
New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time.
Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident.
To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day.
Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero.
Chinatown Interview
Chinatown Interview: Interviewee
Tin Din Ng
Chinatown Interview: Interviewer
Florence Ng
Chinatown Interview: Date
0000-00-00
Chinatown Interview: Language
Cantonese
Chinatown Interview: Occupation
CCBA
Chinatown Interview: Interview (en)
<p>Q:
This is the Museum of Chinese in the Americas’ historical oral
recordings. Today we have invited the Chinese Consolidated
Benevolent Association chairman, Mr. Ting Deng Ng, for an interview.
I am Florence Ng, and I will conduct the interview. Could you please
tell us when you came to America?</p>
<p>NG:
I came towards the end of 1975 to America. Before 1975, I went from
mainland China to Hong Kong, and then came to America. For eighteen
years, I worked in the Hong Kong educational environment. When I
first came to America I, well, when I first came to America, the main
reason was that I was concerned about my children’s education,
I had four children that were going to go to college, and at that
time, Hong Kong’s situation was very difficult, and there
weren’t so many slots for students, and college was very
difficult… So I came to America. Having arrived in America,
my whole family worked at textile factories, laundries, restaurants,
and for over ten years, I worked continuously for the sake of my
daughters. So as far as that time goes, I didn’t really know
much about New York’s Chinatown. That’s because I didn’t
work in Chinatown during that time. I worked on the outside, in
places like Manhattan and Queens, so I didn’t know too much
about New York’s Chinatown. Ten years ago I had retired, and
since I didn’t have anything to do after retirement, I went
back to a family clan organization, and other community
organizations, localized, locally organized community groups, and I
joined some organizations of people with the same birthplaces. I got
to know Chinatown from that time on.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, when you first came to America, what was your impression
of Chinatown? What problems existed in Chinatown?</p>
<p>NG:
In 1975 when I came, back in 1975, Chinatown didn’t have so
many immigrants. The immigrants started coming after the eighties.
When I came, most of Chinatown was
garment
factories, textile shops, and, as far as Chinese people went, they
worked in textile shops or in restaurants. At that time, Chinatown
wasn’t so flourishing. It was very quiet. That was thirty
years ago.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, did Chinatown have any serious problems, such as
safety, housing, or troublemakers?</p>
<p>NG:
Back then, Chinatown, because most of the… the history goes
like this, in the beginning, most of the people in New York’s
Chinatown had been from Taishan, there were lots of people from
Taishan, and a lot of decisions were made by those from Taishan, all
the way until they created the <b>Lian-cheng Gong-suo</b>. In
Chinatown, <b>Wen-ye </b>was mainly used by the people from Taishan.
This situation continued all the way until the eighties before it
started to change, because in the 80s, China became more open, and
after it became more open, lots of new immigrants came. Due to the
shock of this wave of new immigrants, Chinatown changed. It started
to change. In any case… Because the living area within
Chinatown is so restricted, a lot of the new immigrants expanded out
into the outer areas, developing into the surrounding areas.
Chinatown couldn’t handle so many new people, living there,
staying there, working there, and so forth, and that’s why they
expanded into the surrounding areas. So after the 80s, it shifted
and expanded towards Flushing, Brooklyn, and developed into these new
areas.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, when you joined the community organizations and did
public service, which of the major groups did you join first?</p>
<p>NG:
It was the <b>Wu Xu Shan Gong-suo</b>.</p>
<p>Q:
At that time, what role did you serve?</p>
<p>NG:
At that time, I joined and served as a copy clerk, a secretary. I
acted as a secretary on behalf of <b>Wu Xu Shan Gong-suo</b>. And I
also joined the <b>Hai-yan Same-Village Organization</b>, this was
one of the Chinese-American same-village organizations within
the Chinese Community Center. We had all been born
in the same area, and I acted as the chairman of the <b>Hai-yan
Same-Village Organization</b>. Later, I joined the <b>Taishan
Province Independent Middle School Alumni Organization</b>, I joined
that, and acted as the meeting chief for six years. Now I am still
the chairperson of the <b>Dong-shi Committee</b>. After the
eighties, I joined the <b>Xie-sheng Gonghui</b>, and the <b>American
Business Assistance Organization</b> when I joined I became the
secretary, I acted as the secretary for them all the way to today.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, how did you later join the CCBA?</p>
<p>NG:
Well, it was like this, I was in a number of organizations, and I had
worked as a chairman and a clerk and a secretary, and I came into
contact with more and more of the Chinese-American organizations in
the Chinatown Chinese-American community. There were a lot of
meetings with Chinese-American organizations because I had acted as
the chairman for sixty Chinese-American organizations, and often came
back to hold meetings, so I met a lot of them.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, I believe you took office in 2002?</p>
<p>NG:
Yes.</p>
<p>Q:
So that was already about half a year after 9/11 occurred. How big
was the impact of 9/11 upon Chinatown, in your opinion?</p>
<p>NG:
Oh, it’s like this. Before I had taken office, the previous
chairman, in ’01 -- At the time of 9/11, <b>Zhong Qiao-zheng</b>
had been acting as the chairman of the CCBA. Ever since 9/11
occurred, the CCBA has done a lot.</p>
<p>Q:
What do you think was the greatest impact that 9/11 had upon
Chinatown, for example, which businesses or areas were most affected?</p>
<p>
NG:
9/11 had a big impact on Chinatown. Ever since 9/11, since they
closed off all the roads, it affected – all of Chinatown was
paralyzed. Since nobody could move, business couldn’t go
forward for about a week or two. Factories and textile mills all
closed up, and transportation was stuck, causing there to be more and
more unemployed people. So all of the business in Chinatown was
impacted. After a few weeks, when they lifted the restrictions on
entering, Chinatown couldn’t rebound, and business…
There was nobody coming to Chinatown. The businesses at the time,
all of the businesspeople suffered to an extent that can’t be
put into words.</p>
<p>Q:
After 9/11 occurred, did the CCBA lead in coordinating other
organizations to do some services and planning related to disaster
relief?</p>
<p>NG:
In that regard, Chairman <b>Zhong Qiao-zheng</b>, in 2001, Chairman
<b>Zhong Qiao-zheng </b>was serving when 9/11 took place, and the
CCBA immediately opened all our locations and let those relief
organizations set up in our community centers. We supplied these
locations without attaching any conditions. Lots of relief
organizations, even government economic assistance organizations, all
set up at the CCBA. We hoped that we could diligently assist the
government, and we worked hard to help our Chinatown citizens.</p>
<p>Q:
How big was the effect of 9/11 upon Chinatown? Has the total loss
been calculated?</p>
<p>NG:
There hasn’t been an official calculation. I think that at
that time, for one year or half a year, none of the businesses could
go forward, and all of them, not just some of them, they all said
that they had huge losses.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, where were you when 9/11 occurred?</p>
<p>NG:
I was in Chinatown when 9/11 occurred. I was there until after 9/11,
in March of 2002, when I took over as the chairman of the CCBA. I
continued with all of the work that had been done by the previous
chairman, and we did things more openly. After I
took over… it was like this… the
important thing was restoring the economy of Chinatown, the most
important and most critical first step was restoring the economy of
Chinatown. In that regard, what I did was, I cleaned up Chinatown,
that’s the first thing, I wanted to clean up and beautify
Chinatown, and I wanted everything about it to attract visitors,
because Chinatown is a tourist destination. If the visitors don’t
come, then it doesn’t matter what we do, everything will be
useless. So in that way, we worked hard to attract tourists, and we
did things like hold parades and floats. Last year was the most
successful, there were two or three hundred thousand people that came
and took part in our parade activities, and we wanted to try hard to
attract more of these visitors, because that’s the only way to
restore Chinatown’s economy.</p>
<p>For
many years, we requested that the government come and help us fix the
roads, because a couple years ago the roads in Chinatown were really
bumpy and raggedy and driving wasn’t convenient, and so we
requested that the government fix the roads. They’ve already
completed it, and they’ve opened up all the roads again. Now
there’s only Park Row that hasn’t yet been reopened, the
rest have been reopened. This has been a big help to Chinatown.
Next, we worked hard to negotiate with the government about the
parking problem. In addition, we have already started making a
ceremonial gateway, we want to create a Chinese-style, a colorful
Eastern, Chinese-style ceremonial gateway in Chinatown. We’ve
collected donations from a lot of good people. Our work has already
gone through the second district, and got the help of the third
district and Manhattan, so we can do it. We’ve already asked
Mr. De He Tie Ji to help us apply to the government on these plans.
This work is all to beautiful Chinatown, and to attract visitors.</p>
<p>NG:
In the beginning when I was at Hong Kong, because I had some siblings
and some relatives, all of them in America. My entire family had
already left mainland China then, they had all left mainland China.</p>
<p>Q:
Left where in China?</p>
<p>
NG:
Taishan. Taishan in Canton. I’m of Taishan descent. After
1957, our entire family left Taishan. The old folks, several of the
old folks, some somewhat younger ones and my sister, everyone came to
America and Canada. Myself, I stayed in Hong Kong, because I hadn’t…
I had to stay in Hong Kong to finish my education. I remained there
all the way through 1967 or ’68, when Hong Kong started
becoming having violent protests, at which time I had already applied
to come to America. My older relatives applied for me to come, and I
was accepted, but I didn’t go, at the time I thought that there
was no point in coming to America. Especially if we could live all
right in Hong Kong, we didn’t want to come to America and
struggle. Especially my old folks and my other relatives all said:
“You’re a teacher, and people in academics are useless in
America, because you can’t speak English, so if you come, it’s
just to suffer.” And they didn’t encourage me to go.
Now, 1967 and ’68 was a time of violent protests in Hong Kong,
and I had been accepted, but I didn’t go. All the way until
’73 or ’74, I continued to stay and work in Hong Kong,
temporarily at Bo-ya Academy.</p>
<p>Because
of my children, my children, they had all studied from elementary
school to high school, and three or four of them were going to go to
college in a row. In the 70s, in Hong Kong, having several children
to go to college was an impossible financial burden, unless you were
a rich family. It was just an impossible burden. The second problem
was that at that time there weren’t enough slots for students
in colleges in Hong Kong, there was only one Hong Kong University and
a newly established Chinese Literature University, just these two.
And in these circumstances, my children would have no chance of
studying further. And my own abilities weren’t sufficient to
provide, to provide for my children. In ’73, I had a daughter
who tried to get into college, but was unable to test into it. She
didn’t get a high enough score. After they finished studying
at secondary school, they’d have to start work, and none of
them felt they had any hope for the future. And so I decided to come
to America. Standard of living was one thing, but the main issue was
my children. I had heard, although I didn’t know it
personally, in America, if you want to study, you can always study.
And it was in search of that ideal that I brought them over with me.</p>
<p>
Q:
Chairman Ng, after you came to America, was the life there the same
as what you had imagined? Or how did you adjust?</p>
<p>NG:
I, I, as far as I go, I just do whatever, it doesn’t matter.
Even when I was in mainland China, if I ploughed the field, I just
ploughed it. In this regard, I didn’t think of doing anything
else, I didn’t give up on things, I definitely wouldn’t
do that. I just hoped that I could be very stable, that my life
would be stable and that my children got a good education. That’s
all.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, when you taught in Hong Kong, what did you teach, what
classes and where?</p>
<p>NG:
It’s like this, I was at an academy, Bernard College, I was an
administrative head and I managed the administration.</p>
<p>Q:
OK, Chairman Ng, could you please introduce to us to the CCBA and how
you came to be selected as the chairman?</p>
<p>NG:
It happened like this, the CCBA has already had 120 years of, 120
years of history. In the beginning, in the very beginning, the
people from the <b>Taishan Ning-yang Organization</b> went and acted
as the chairman of the CCBA. Because one hundred years ago, the
Chinese in New York, 99% of them were from Taishan, Taishan people,
so those who acted as the chairmen of the CCBA, and those that took
responsibility for things at the CCBA were all people from Taishan.
Each year, the chairmen came from the Taishan people. Later on,
before 1990, there was a period of ten or twenty years when there
were a different four, they weren’t from Taishan, I think
Enping, Kaiping, and they weren’t Taishan, there were even
those from other provinces, and when they came, there wasn’t
any reason why the CCBA was just for Taishan people, so they formed a
group, <b>Mei-Dong Lian-cheng Gongsuo</b>, <b>Lian-Cheng Gongsuo</b>,
and later they had a revolving chairman. Later on, it would be
two-year periods, the <b>Lian-Cheng Gongsuo</b> would lead for two
years, and then it would go back to <b>Ning-yang</b>, and then
<b>Ning-yang </b>would do it
for two
years and then give it back to <b>Lian-cheng</b>, like that. The
selection of the chairman was done like this: once every two years,
and I’m doing it now, it was in ’02, started in ’02,
and I was put forward as a candidate by <b>Ning-yang Gongsuo</b>, and
was selected by the greater organization, I was selected by 84
members to be the chairman. They have to put forward two or more
candidates. <b>Ning-yang Gongsuo </b>has to put forward two
candidates, and then the greater organization selects the chairman.
They ended up selecting me. To put it another way, after I finish,
it will go to <b>Mei-dong Lian-cheng Gongsuo</b>, and they will have
to put forward at least two candidates. Speaking of the
organizations within the CCBA, there are 60 Chinese-American groups,
60 Chinese-American groups, and outside those 60 Chinese-American
groups, there are also twenty-four members, and of those 24, there
are eight committee members who are selected from <b>Lian-Cheng
Gongsuo</b>, and the other eight committee members come from
<b>Mei-dong</b>… I mean, <b>Ning-yang Gongsuo </b>selects
them. The other eight committee members are selected from the
<b>Business Organization</b>, all together, that’s 24 members,
and the 60 community groups, and in this way, they make up the CCBA.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, could I bother you to explain a little what the CCBA did
after 9/11 occurred in order to provide disaster relief? Is there
anything currently going forward now?</p>
<p>NG:
After 9/11, besides doing some work that progressed over many months
during the end of 2001, we also did lots of work with the government.
All of that work, we did for the government without making any sort
of demands. We didn’t get any kind of economic…
everything we did, we ourselves believed that we should do however
much we could do, however much we could help the government, we did
that without any… so in this regard, we were just a kind of
assistance to the government, and we didn’t have any sorts of
demands towards them.</p>
<p>Q:
For example, Chairman Ng, you must have been involved in the
allocation of disaster relief funds—</p>
<p>
NG:
They didn’t come here for allocation of relief funds. There
was 750,000 to be spent, but even up to now, they haven’t even
done it.</p>
<p>Q:
Why?</p>
<p>NG:
Because there are many, many technological problems that haven’t
been solved. Congressperson Velazquez worked with us to help us
apply for 750,000 dollars to help with transportation issues, but
now, because of technological problems, lots of things need to be
solved, and there still hasn’t been a satisfactory resolution.</p>
<p>Q:
As far as the transportation problems go, what kind of problems are
they? Or what needs to be improved?</p>
<p>NG:
This problem extends rather far, because it involves the entire Lower
East Side, how to solve transportation issues, and they have to find
an expert to do it, they have to do a “proposal,” how do
we say “proposal” [in Chinese]?</p>
<p>NG:
<i>Jihuashu</i>. So they need to find an expert to create the
proposal, and after that they need to think about how they’ll
carry it out, and only after that they can apply again to the
government, so we’re still in the preparation stage. It hasn’t
been completed yet.</p>
<p>Q:
So the application has been going on from the time of 9/11 all the
way until now?</p>
<p>NG:
At that time when we applied, after 9/11, the Development Office
still had some money left over, and they wanted to allocate that
remainder to use, and we applied, and they approved 750,000 dollars,
but all the way until now, they haven’t started.</p>
<p>Q:
But have you calculated when they will be able to officially start?</p>
<p>NG:
As far as that goes, we’re in the midst of consulting on it,
because government matters have a lot of problems relating to
support.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
OK, well, Chairman Ng, I’d like to ask in regard to the
disaster relief carried out after 9/11, there were lots of Chinatown
civic groups that took part. Do you feel that the overall
coordination and progress went along smoothly, or were there some
problems that had been overlooked?</p>
<p>NG:
As far as that goes, it’s like this. As far as I see it,
earlier, not before 9/11, but a long, long time ago, Chinatown was
split into two worlds. One was the traditional overseas Chinese
community; the other was <b>Zeng-Zheng Organization</b>, the American
Fujianese Association, the <b>Hua-lian Organization</b>, and because
of political issues, the two sides didn’t join up. You ignore
me, and I won’t pay any attention to you. And on lots of
issues, they opposed each other. When I took over as chairman of the
CCBA, well, I had this kind of thinking – why do we Chinese
people let these small issues divide us like that, you ignore me and
I ignore you; if we don’t unite together, then no matter what
we struggle for, we can’t achieve it, so in this area I put
forth a lot of effort. I made overtures to a lot of other
Chinese-American groups, other Chinese-American groups, and in this
regard, I wanted everyone to work together in this direction. OK.</p>
<p>NG:
While I’ve been at the CCBA, from the previous administration
until now, and it will be two years in another two months, and then
my term will be completed. I’ve always felt that two years is
too short, I can not accomplish a lot during that time. My greatest
wish, I believe that the Chinese-American community must become more
unified. Regardless of whether or not someone is a member of the
CCBA, they are still our fellow Chinese-American compatriot, and we
should all be united. Everyone can have his own opinion, and can
join together on the things we have in common and listen to those
opinions different from our own. We can unite our efforts to work
hard for things that we agree on, and on those topics we disagree on,
you can have your opinion, and I’ll have my opinion. But
everyone definitely has to unite, we have to unite on good terms,
that’s the only way we can succeed, only as part of mainstream
society can we actually accomplish something. If you strive for this
and I strive for that, then there’s no benefit for Chinatown.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, 9/11 is already two years ago, now, with your remaining
time, what areas of Chinatown do you wish to improve, or do you have
any advice on what can be achieved?</p>
<p>(Tape
SIDE B)</p>
<p>NG:
I think, as far as Chinatown goes, our ceremonial arch… we
have to do it. We’ve already consulted on every aspect of it,
and a lot of specialists have said to us, you don’t want to
rush this sort of thing, you don’t want to try to get it all
done in a couple years or a year and a half, this isn’t
something you can hurry up. You’ve got to take your time to do
it. My hope is that this is something that the next chairman and the
following chairman will all continue working on. A ceremonial arch
would be, Chinatown needs to have a symbol, and if it doesn’t,
I think that’s not good. If we had a ceremonial arch, it would
be good for the Chinatown economy, it would be good for everything,
it would be a benefit to everything. The first thing we ought to do
is the ceremonial arch, the second thing we need to do, as I’ve
said before, the Chinese people need to unite. It doesn’t
matter what form it takes, but we must expand our group in order to
have the power to develop our Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, I know that historically, Chinese-American organizations
have divided up into political factions. Do you think that this
situation has improved at all?</p>
<p>NG:
Before, to the extent that I know, before, the leftist faction –
what we call the left and the right don’t interact with each
other, they almost consider each other enemies. There’s a lot
of people who, when it comes to the right-wing faction, that is, the
Nationalists, a lot of people won’t go join their Nationalist
celebrations or anything else. Even if it was just having tea
parties, just going out to drink together, they still wouldn’t
go. And the tea parties hosted by the leftists went the same way,
the Republic of China [i.e. Nationalists] and those of us who are
more traditional won’t go join them. I think, that problem has
gone too far. There’s no need for it to be like that. Why
must it be like that? Everybody
is
Chinese, so why do we need this political stuff. If you want to talk
politics, go talk it by yourself. But as far as Chinese go, as far
as Chinatown goes, we need to unite. Towards that end, I’ve
already worked really hard, and I’ve tried to invite those in
the <b>Hua-lian</b> social circle to take part in the traditionalist
activities. That would be the American Fujianese Association, the
<b>Fujian Tong-xiang-hui</b>, the <b>Hua-lian Zong-hui</b>, and the
organization of Mr. Liang Guan-jun. We’ve tried hard to invite
them to come and do things with us. For example, beautifying
Chinatown -- when we cleaned the streets, we invited them to come.
When we cleaned up Mott Street and East Broadway, we did it together,
everyone did it together, and we had a good time, and we at the CCBA
did it together with them. So in conclusion, I hope that the Chinese
people will unite.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, I’d like to ask, after 9/11, do you think that the
mainstream media and the government treated Chinatown with sufficient
importance?</p>
<p>NG:
I’d say that looking at it from the present day, the government
doesn’t treat us as important. I’ve said many times that
we can’t cry sour grapes, but on many issues the government
doesn’t consider us to be important.</p>
<p>Q:
What do you think is the reason for that?</p>
<p>NG:
We’ve already done lots of applications, and we’d like to
work with the government to do things, but we haven’t gotten
any help from them.</p>
<p>Q:
Have you ever thought of what the reason for that might be? For
example, the community groups in Chinatown not being sufficiently
united? Or something else?</p>
<p>NG:
One of the reasons is the lack of unity. I think the main reason is
that we haven’t been able to push Chinatown out in the public
eye. We definitely need to push Chinatown’s current situation
out into mainstream society, and cause mainstream society to
understand our situation. If we are always living closed off from
others, then the problem becomes very serious, and it will greatly
influence Chinatown’s future
development. In the last two years, I have tried hard to push
Chinatown onto the Western [i.e. non-Chinese] newspapers and mediums,
and cause those people to understand that there is a Chinatown…
We need to get them to respond. If they don’t respond to
Chinatown, then the result will be very bad for Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, I’d like to ask you, do you think there is
something influencing the mainstream media and the government,
causing them not to pay sufficient attention to us? Do you think
there is anything we can do to improve the situation?</p>
<p>NG:
Regarding this area, my thoughts are like this. A lot, a lot of
people think that we are discriminated against. But in regards to
the issue of discrimination, we need to examine ourselves first. My
thoughts are like this: We need to work hard to push ourselves out in
the public eye. We can’t just… decide that because of
some discrimination, we won’t do anything anymore. The more
you discriminate against me, the more I push my own things out there,
and see what you do about it. I think American society is very free.
There are a lot of things we can strive for and achieve.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, what work do you wish for the next chairman to do in
order to improve Chinatown? For example, promoting Chinatown after
9/11?</p>
<p>NG:
It’s like this. Speaking personally, I can say that the
following chairman, maybe they have something that they want to do.
Everyone has their own thoughts on this. I’m not needed. I
hope that all of Chinatown can unite, and that I can do more work to
push Chinatown out into the public eye, and work hard to improve the
economy of Chinatown.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, after you finish your term as chairman, what will you
do? Do you have some plans?</p>
<p>NG:
I will retire.</p>
<p>Q:
Retire. How old are you, this year?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>NG:
I am over seventy.</p>
<p>Q:
Over seventy.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, I’d like you to please speak a little, what plans
has the CCBA had for promoting the small businesses of Chinatown?</p>
<p>NG:
We’ve requested that the government create a small credit
organization to serve small businesses, and we’ve already
gained the government’s approval, and now all the small
organizations, and each small group needs to take responsibility to
make progress. That small business credit organization will be able
to help the small businesses do the work of getting credit, and we’re
currently moving ahead on this project, we’re doing it now.</p>
<p>Q:
Chairman Ng, how long will this plan take? And what does it consist
of?</p>
<p>NG:
The plan will last a year.</p>
<p>Q:
And what does it consist of?</p>
<p>NG:
It consists of helping the small businesses make their applications.</p>
<p>[END]</p>
Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh)
<p> 問︰這是華人歷史博物館口述華埠紀錄計劃。今日我們請到中華公所主席伍庭典先生接受採訪。採訪人是我﹐吳翊菁。請你講一下你是幾時來美國﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰我是一九七五年年尾來美國的。在一九七五年以前﹐我一九七五年由大陸到香港﹐直至來美國。那十八年就在香港教育界做事的。我初初來到紐約﹐我做過…因為當時我來美國主要就為仔女的教育問題﹐當時我有四個仔女要上大學﹐因為香港當時的環境不容許、沒有那麼多學位﹐而且大學好不容易…所以我移民來到美國。來到美國之後﹐我全家人在製衣廠、洗衣館、餐室我都做過﹐十幾年我只為生活為兒女的教育奔勞的去做。所以當時來講﹐我對紐約華埠是沒甚麼認識的。因為我所工作的地方不在華埠﹐是在外圍﹐好似曼哈頓區、皇后區做事﹐我對紐約華埠的認識不多。十年之前我就已經退休﹐我退休後沒有事做﹐我返來姓氏團體、其他的社團、地方性地方組織的社團﹐我就參加這些同鄉會的組織。自從那時起﹐我接觸了華埠。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐當時你來到美國對唐人街的印象如何﹖同唐人街有甚麼問題?</p>
<p>伍廷典︰一九七五年我來的時候﹐一九七五年﹐唐人街未有那麼多移民﹐移民多是八十年代以後的事。我來的時候﹐<br>
唐人街多數是做衣廠、做衣館﹔唐人來講﹐做衣館、做餐室﹐當時唐人街沒有現在那麼旺盛的。是好靜的﹐這是三十年前的事。</p>
<p>問︰當時唐人街有沒有譬如治安上、住屋或人蛇的問題﹐比較嚴重的?</p>
<p>伍廷典︰當時唐人街﹐因為多數是… 還有這樣的歷史的—初時在紐約唐人街的多數是台山人﹐台山人多﹐所有好多事決定是在台山人手裡﹐直至後來才有聯成公所。初時來到需要做事的、在唐人街搵野做的都是以台山人最多。這情形﹐直至八十年代才開始有轉變﹐因為八十年代中國大陸改革開放﹐開放之後﹐好多新的移民到﹐受新的移民的衝擊﹐唐人街就變了﹐就開始變。無論…亦因為唐人街地方環境的局限﹐所有好多新的移民要向外發展﹐向外圍去發展。 因為唐人街不能容納那麼多﹐住呀﹐居住、工作等一定要向外發展。所以形成了八十年代以後﹐形成要向法拉盛、布碌崙兩國新的地區發展去。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐你參加社團公職的時候﹐第一個參加的主要的團體是那一個?</p>
<p>伍廷典︰是伍胥山公所。</p>
<p>問︰你當時擔任甚麼職務﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰我當時是進去當文書﹐書記。於伍胥山公所做書記。再加入去海燕同鄉會﹐這是中華公所屬下僑團之一的海燕同鄉會。<br>
是我們的出生的鄉下﹐我做了海燕同鄉會的主席。隨後再參加台山縣立中學校友會﹐我加入去﹐做了六年的會長。現在仍是董事會的董事長。八十年代之後﹐我參加了協勝公會﹐ 美商協勝公會﹐入去都是做書記﹐擔任他們的書記長直至現在。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐你後來怎樣加入中華公所﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰當時是這樣的﹐因為我在幾個會當中﹐我做了主席﹐做了文書、書記工作﹐同華埠僑社的僑團接觸越來越多。有好多中華公所入面僑團的事﹐因為我做了六十僑團的主席﹐常常回來開會﹐所以接觸比較多。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐你應該是二零零二年上任﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰是。</p>
<p>問︰ 即九一一發生之後半年左右。你覺得九一一對華埠的影響有多大﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰哦﹐是這樣的。我未上任以前﹐前一任﹐ 即零一年﹐ 九一一時是鍾僑征做中華公所的主席。自從九一一發生之後﹐中華公所做了很多功夫。</p>
<p>問︰你覺得九一一影響華埠那一方面最大﹐ 譬如甚麼行業﹐或者地區﹖</p>
<p>
伍廷典︰九一一以後對華埠影響大啦。自從九一一發生﹐因為封鎖了所有的道路﹐所以影響到﹐整個華埠是癱瘓了。即不能動﹐生意全部沒有得做﹐曾經有一兩個星期。工廠、衣廠最部關門﹐交通又不到﹐即是令失業的人越來越多﹐華埠所有的生意全部都受影響。經過幾個禮拜解了封之後﹐仍然華埠都是一闕 不振的﹐生意‥都沒有人來華埠。當時的商家﹐所有商家都苦不堪言。</p>
<p>問︰其實九一一發生後﹐中華公所有沒有統籌其他的團體做一些譬如賑災的服務或計劃﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰這方面﹐由鍾僑征主席﹐零一年﹐鍾僑征主席任內﹐九一一發生﹐中華公所即刻開放我們所有的地方給那些救濟的機構來我們的公所辦事﹐我們是無條件的供應地方。好多慈善機構甚至甚至政府的救濟機構都來中華公所﹐我們在這方面希望儘量幫得政府的亦幫得我們華埠唐人的我們盡力去做。</p>
<p>問︰911對華埠經濟上的打擊有多大﹖有沒有統計過損失的﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰正式的統計就沒有。我想當時一年半年內﹐所有的生意都不行﹐全部﹐不只是個別﹐個個都說要蝕本的。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐911發生的時候你在哪兒﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰911發生時我是在華埠。直至前任主席做了我於911之後的2002年三月份我就接任中華公所主席。我仍然按照上一任主席所做的工作﹐我們再加開放的去做﹐去做。<br>
我接任後﹐我…是這樣…主要是恢復華埠經濟﹐等華埠的經濟復甦是最緊要的最急需要做的第一步。在這方面﹐我就這樣﹐清潔華埠﹐ 第一個﹐希望清潔華埠美化華埠﹐ 希望各方面能夠吸引遊客﹐因為華埠是一個旅遊景點。如果沒有遊客來﹐根本我們講甚麼都沒有用。好像這方面﹐我們儘量去吸引遊客來﹐好像我們舉辦過的的遊行﹐即花車遊行。去年我們做的最成功﹐有二十、三十多萬人來參加我們遊行的活動﹐我們儘量希望吸引多些遊客來﹐只有這樣才能恢復華埠的經濟。</p>
<p>年多以來﹐我們呼籲政府來幫我們鋪路﹐因為唐人街早兩年的路真的是凹凹凸凸不平的﹐行得好不方便﹐曾經呼籲政府為我們鋪路﹐已經完成了﹐於華埠重鋪路﹐開放了其他的街道。現在只有柏路(Park Row)還沒有開放﹐其他的已開了。這幫助華埠不少﹐其次是泊車的問題我們儘量與政府洽商。另一方面﹐我們曾經、已經在做的是牌樓﹐我們想籌建一個中國式、東方色彩的中國式的牌樓﹐在華埠。得到我們善長人翁的捐錢﹐我們的工作亦已經經過第二區、第三社區和曼哈頓區的協助﹐我們可以做。我們最近又請得何鐵基 先生幫我們向政府申請劃則各方面﹐這些工作都是為美化華埠﹐即是吸引遊客的。</p>
<br>
<p>伍廷典︰我初初在香港的時候﹐因為我有些兄弟有些親戚全部在美國的。我整個家庭就已經在那時全部離開了大陸﹐全部離開大陸。</p>
<p>問︰離開大陸哪兒﹖</p>
<p>
伍廷典︰台山﹐廣東台山﹐我是台山人。57年後﹐我們全部整個家族都離開了台山。我的大佬、幾個大佬、細佬和妹﹐個個來了美國和加拿大。我自己﹐我留在香港﹐因為我又不…我留在香港搞我的教育的事。直至到我在1967、68年的時候﹐香港暴動的時候我已經申請來美國的﹐我的大佬申請我來﹐批准了﹐但我沒有來﹐當時認為來美國沒有用。即是說香港如果生活可以安頓﹐我們不希望再來美國「挨騾仔」。甚至我的大佬、親戚都說︰「你一個教學、辦教育的人來美國無用﹐你不會英文﹐你來只是來挨苦。」亦不主張我來。即1967、68年正是香港暴動的時候﹐批准了﹐我沒有來。直至到73、74年﹐我仍然在香港辦緊‥臨時的在博雅書院在做…</p>
<p>因為我的仔女幾個仔女﹐個個都讀到初中或者高中﹐成三、四個都要連續要上大學﹐因為在7幾年﹐在香港如果要供給幾個仔女上大學﹐經濟是一種沒可能的負擔﹐除了你是富豪啦。就是沒可能的負擔。第二個問題是香港當時的大學位不夠﹐只是一間香港大學和最新的發展的中文大學﹐是兩間而已。以這樣情況下﹐以後仔女需要讀書的是沒可能。以我自己的能力來講我是供不起﹐供不起仔女。在73年、74年之後﹐我有一個女直情要上大學﹐考不到。考不到點﹖以後讀完中學便要做事﹐ 即個個認為都沒有甚麼希望。我決意來美國。生活是另外一件事﹐但主要的是仔女﹐我聽說﹐我當時未知﹐美國如果你讀得書的﹐讀度邊度都有得你讀。只是為著這個理想﹐我就帶著他們來了。</p>
<p>
問︰伍主席﹐你來到美國之後﹐現實的生活與你來之前的期望是否一樣﹖<br>
或者怎樣適應呢﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰我﹐我來﹐我這個人﹐我做甚麼都得。甚至在大陸﹐我耕田我都一樣耕。對這方面﹐我無不想做邊樣﹐沒有放不下甚麼﹐這個我絕對無。我只希望能夠平平穩穩﹐生活上是平穩﹐等仔女受教育。只是這樣。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐你在香港時教書譬如是教甚麼科目或在哪裡教書的呢﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰這樣的﹐我在在一間書院(Bernard) college 做校務主任﹐我是打理行政的。</p>
<p>問︰ok﹐伍主席﹐麻煩你介紹一下中華公所的背景和當初你為甚麼被選為主席的呢﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰是這樣的﹐中華公所已經直至現在已經120年﹐120年的歷史。初初﹐最初的中華公所是台山寧陽會館的人去做主席的。因為點解呢﹐一百年以前來New York的華人﹐百份之99的都是台山人﹐是台山人﹐所以中華公所的事全部<br>
主席﹐和負責在中華公所打 的人都是台山人。年年的主席都是由台山人做下去的。後來﹐90年前﹐經過十幾二十年有其他四 ﹐即非台山的 - 好似恩平、開平﹐即不是台山的、甚至第二省的人來﹐來到無理由 中華公所只是由台山人做的﹐所以他們組織一個美東聯成公所﹐聯成公所呢﹐以後的輪流做主席﹐以後兩年一屆﹐聯成公所做了兩年﹐輪返給寧陽﹐<br>
寧陽做兩年又輪返給聯成﹐是這樣。主席的選出是這樣︰兩年輪一次﹐好似我現在做這樣﹐就是02年﹐02開始﹐由寧陽會館選舉候選人出來﹐ 由大會去選- 由84個會員去選主席﹐推舉一定要兩個以上。寧陽會館一定要推舉兩國候選人﹐就由大會選出主席﹐我僥倖在上次大會選出我。換句話說﹐我做完以後輪到美東聯成公所﹐要由他們推舉兩個以上的候選人出來。選主席亦是由84個會員來選﹐今年訂在19號選舉﹐下一屆的主席就會選出來。講到中華公所的組織﹐它是有60個僑團﹐60個僑團﹐60個僑團之外﹐另外有24個議員- 這24個議員內有八個議員是由聯成公所派出來的﹐ 另外8個議員是美東…是寧陽會館派出來。其他的8個議員是由商會派出來﹐即24個議員﹐60個社團﹐這樣構成中華公所的組織。</p>
<p> </p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐麻煩你簡介一下911發生後中華公所的賑災工作﹖有甚麼在進行中﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰我們911之後﹐除了01年年尾做個多月進行 的工作﹐我們曾經與政府做了好多功夫。所有那些工作我們全部是無條件為政府做的﹐我們沒有向政府拿到一個經濟上的…全部是我們自己認為做得幾多得幾多﹐我們認為幫得政府幾多得幾多﹐我們無…對這樣我們只是一種協助政府﹐我們對這是無要求的。</p>
<p>問︰但政府應該對譬如 911 賑災撥款…</p>
<p>
伍廷典︰賑災的撥款﹐它不是來這裡。即﹐ 有一個75萬的撥了出去﹐但直至現在仍然未成事。</p>
<p>問︰為什麼﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰因為有好多好多﹐技術上的問題尚未解決。維洛貴絲國會議員同我們幫我們申請了75萬給我們做即關於交通的﹐但現在因為技術上的問題好多事情要解決﹐現在未有未滿的結果。</p>
<p>問︰那交通的問題﹐大概是甚麼問題﹖或者是有甚麼要改善﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰這個問題涉及好廣﹐因為涉及整一個下東城﹐如何去解決交通﹐要找專家去做﹐先先做proposal ﹐proposal 叫甚麼? </p>
<br>
<p>伍廷典︰ 計劃書﹐計劃要找專家去做﹐做好了應該如何去實行﹐才再向政府去申請﹐現在我們還在辦理中。未有結果。</p>
<p>問︰即自從911那時已經申請到現在﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰即那時申請的﹐911以後﹐發展局有一筆款剩下的﹐剩下要撥落去做﹐<br>
我們去申請﹐它批了75萬﹐但直至現在沒有開始去做。</p>
<p>問︰但你有沒有預計甚麼時候可以正式開始實行的﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰這個﹐我們正在接洽中﹐因為政府的事情﹐有好多支持 的問題。</p>
<p>
問︰ok, 那伍主席﹐我想問譬如911之後的賑災工作﹐有很多華埠民間團體的參與﹐你覺得整個統籌上或進行上順不順利或者有甚麼忽略的﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰關於這個問題﹐是這樣的。照我看﹐以前﹐不是911以前﹐好耐好耐的以前﹐唐人街是分兩國部份﹐一個﹐就是傳統僑社﹔一個﹐是崇政會、福建公所、華聯會那邊﹐即因為政治上的問題﹐兩方面是格格不相入。你不理我﹐我亦不睬你。甚至有好多問題是對立的。我上任中華公所以後﹐就﹐我有這樣的看法- 為什麼我們華人來到這裡為了些小事你不睬我﹐我又不﹔如果你不團結的時候﹐你們要爭甚麼都是假的﹐我在這裡我出過力。我呼籲好多其他的僑團﹐其他的僑團就﹐在這方面﹐希望在這方面大家合作。ok.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>伍廷典︰我在中華公所﹐ 上任了直至現在﹐還差兩個月夠滿兩年了﹐我亦任滿了。我總是感覺得兩年的時間太過短了﹐我自己本身亦做不了甚麼出來。最大的願望﹐我希望僑社一定要擴大我們的團結。無論它是否中華公所的屬下的會員﹐總之是我們的僑胞團結﹐我們都應該一致的。大家﹐你可以有你的自己的意見﹐可以求同存異。同的地方可以儘量去協調去做﹐不同的地方﹐你可以有你的意見﹐我有我的意見。但一定大家要團結﹐要融洽地的團結﹐先﹐才可以爭得…即在美國主流社會上我們才可以爭得到東西﹐你爭你的﹐我爭我的﹐這不是華埠的福利。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐那911過去已經過去兩年多﹐現在剩下的時間﹐你希望華埠有甚麼地方更加需要改善﹐或有甚麼建議應該落實的呢﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰我想在華埠來說﹐我們的牌樓…</p>
<p>(錄音帶SIDE B)</p>
<p>伍廷典︰ 就﹐我亦任滿了﹐我總是感覺得兩年的時間太過短了﹐我自己本身亦做不了甚麼出來。最大的願望﹐我希望僑社一定要擴大我們的團結。無論它是否中華公所的屬下的會員﹐總之是我們的僑胞團結﹐我們都應該一致的。大家﹐你可以有你的自己的意見﹐可以求同存異。同的地方可以儘量去協調去做﹐不同的地方﹐你可以有你的意見﹐我有我的意見。但一定大家要團結﹐要融洽地的團結﹐先﹐才可以爭得…即在美國主流社會上我們才可以爭得到東西。你爭你的﹐我爭我的﹐這不是華埠的福利。</p>
<p>
問︰伍主席﹐那911過去已經過去兩年多﹐現在剩下的時間﹐你希望華埠有甚地方更加需要改善﹐或有甚麼建議應該落實的呢﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰我想在華埠來說﹐我們的牌樓…要做。我們已經同各方面接洽過﹐有好多專業的人對我這樣說﹐不要把時間 太緊﹐即不要希望一兩年或一年半載可以完成﹐這個時間無可能快的﹐只有慢慢的去做。我希望呢這件事就以後落一下一任或再下一任﹐一路做下去。有一個牌樓呢﹐就﹐唐人街先至有主要的目標係度﹐如果沒有的時候﹐我想不是太好。有一個牌摟在﹐對華埠的經濟、 甚麼都好﹐都好有陴益。第一樣要做的是個牌摟﹐第二樣要做的﹐我仍然講我的話﹐<br>
唐人一定要團結先﹐無論如何情形我們要擴大我們的團結先至有力去發展我們的華埠。</p>
<br>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐我知道歷史上華埠的僑團分了好多的黨派﹐你覺得這個情況有沒有些改善的呢﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰以前呢﹐照我所知的以前﹐左派﹐我們所稱的左派與右派是的不相往來﹐甚至或者敵對的。有好多﹐或者右派﹐國民黨那邊的﹐中華民國的慶典或如何的事左派的不會參加﹐甚至春茗﹐去「飲」而已﹐都不參加的。左派舉行的春茗﹐一樣﹐中華民國﹐即我們傳統的僑社都不去參加。我認為﹐呢個問題﹐太過﹐無需要這樣﹐為什麼要這樣呢﹐<br>
大家都是唐人為什麼要為這個政治﹐你返去講政治﹐你自己返去講。但在唐人﹐華埠來講﹐我們要團結先得﹐我在這方面﹐我亦做過工作﹐即我儘量希望邀請在傳統僑社做的活動﹐邀請華聯那邊的社團來參加﹐好像是福建公所、福建同鄉會﹐華聯總會﹐即梁冠軍先生那個總會。我們儘量邀請他們來做。甚至美化華埠﹐掃街都請他們來﹐掃勿街同掃 East Broadway我們都一起去做﹐大家一起去做亦得他們的好樂意同中華公所合作去做 。講到底﹐我總希望唐人一定要團結。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐我想問一下﹐911發生後﹐你覺得華埠接受主流媒體或者政府的重視 夠不夠﹖同其他譬如受災的社區比﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰我想照現在來講﹐政府不是很重視我們。我幾時我都講﹐不要話<br>
葡萄吃不到是酸的﹐好多事情政府不是很重視我們。</p>
<p>問︰你覺得原因在那裡﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰即是話我們好多申請﹐想幫政府甚麼﹐都得不到他們有任何的幫助。</p>
<p>問︰其實你有沒有想過原因在那裡﹖譬如華埠社團不夠團結﹖或者﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰不夠團結是其中之一﹐我想我們不能將華埠的東西推廣出去是最大的問題﹐我們一定要將華埠現在的情形 全推出到主流社會﹐等主流社會知。如果我們常封閉住﹐就呢個問題是相當嚴重﹐對以後華埠的發展相當有影響。<br>
在過去兩年內我儘量在西人的報紙、媒介我們儘量將華埠推廣出去﹐等人知道下有一個華埠﹐先至…有聲音啦先得﹐如果全沒有聲音﹐對華埠一些聲音都沒有﹐呢個後果真的好壞。</p>
<br>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐我想問一下你﹐你會不會覺得有一個印象﹐ 我們華埠的事情主流媒體和政府不夠重視﹖和你覺得有甚麼改善的辦法﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰在這方面來講﹐我的看法是這樣。好多﹐好多意見話我們被歧視。原本其實呢歧視本身來講﹐我們要自己檢討自己。我的看法是這樣︰希望儘量將自己推廣出去﹐不要…話因某一種歧視我們不想去做事。你越歧視我﹐我就越將我自己的事搬出去﹐看看你怎麼做。我想美國的社會都有自由呀﹐有好多事我們可以爭取得到的。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐那你希望下一任的主席做甚麼的工作改善華埠﹖譬如振興華埠911之後﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰即是這樣﹐個人來講﹐我可以講﹐即下一任﹐或者他們有甚麼要做是下一任的主席他們有 。全部有主見。我不用。。我希望華埠大家自己團結﹐自己多做工作將華埠推廣出去﹐儘量呢將華埠的經濟做得好一些。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐你離任之後﹐你會做甚麼呢﹖你怎麼打算呢﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰退休啦。</p>
<p>問︰退休。你幾歲啦﹐今年﹖</p>
<p>
伍廷典︰七十多啦。</p>
<p>問︰七十多。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐我想請你講一下﹐你們中華公所關於振興呢個華埠小商業的計劃﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰我們曾經向政府申請一個小型商業貸款的小組﹐就亦得到政府的批准﹐我們現在由小組﹐我們一個﹐ 一個小組去負責進行。呢個小型商業貸款是有些講座呀幫助小型商業做貸款工作﹐現在我們在進行中﹐在做。</p>
<p>問︰伍主席﹐這個計劃為期幾耐﹖同…有甚麼﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰這個計劃是一年。</p>
<p>問︰是包括﹖</p>
<p>伍廷典︰即包括我們所有的講座和幫些小型商業去申請。</p>
<br>
<p>[完]</p>
Dublin Core
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Tin Din Ng
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